0:00
You focus on your physical and mental health, but when's the last time you checked in on
0:04
your financial health?
0:06
Many Americans feel financially anxious, yet many are doing better than they think.
0:10
At Fairwind's Credit Union, we give you a clear snapshot of your finances and a plan
0:15
to move forward with confidence.
0:17
With high-yield savings and free checking, we help your money work harder.
0:21
Visit fairwinds.org for more information, federally insured by NCUA.
0:28
LinkedIn's AI-powered job search can help you find the most relevant roles based on
0:32
your goals and experience.
0:33
It cannot help you find something to talk about in the elevator.
0:36
So, ride any dragons this weekend?
0:39
It can help you find your next job just by describing it in your own words.
0:44
It cannot stop your co-worker from describing their dreams.
0:47
So I was flying, right?
0:48
And while we can't help you advance in the office booze ball tournament,
0:52
LinkedIn can help you advance in your career.
0:55
LinkedIn is the network that works for you.
1:18
This is "Undaunted Life" a man's podcast.
1:22
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:23
And let's get into it.
1:25
Welcome back to the forging table.
1:27
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:29
forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:32
At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:35
by digging into God's word.
1:36
We're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.
1:39
That's Zach.
1:40
That's Ryan.
1:41
That's the one and only Matt Chandler.
1:42
Yes, he is still at the forging table.
1:43
You'll have to deal with him for another few weeks.
1:44
So guys, if you don't like it, just skip ahead.
1:46
But from the very beginning, here we're going to dig into Axe-6.
1:49
I love Axe-6.
1:50
We're going to have a great time in Axe-6.
1:51
But I thought let's take advantage of this time, where you're here at the table with
1:55
all of us.
1:56
And we do a segment every month with Joby.
2:00
It's called Ask a Pastor.
2:01
Ask a Pastor.
2:02
With Joby Martin.
2:03
And so there are some funny ones, and there are some not so funny ones, and whoever turned
2:07
the other lights on as well, our editor is going to hate you.
2:10
So stop turning on the lights because they're too different.
2:13
They're cool lights and not cool lights.
2:14
So anyway, we'll deal with it.
2:16
Oh, you can just say it.
2:17
I mean, they're all listening to it.
2:18
No, if you were to turn off, go ahead.
2:21
Don't take your headphones with you.
2:23
All right.
2:24
Turn the light off.
2:25
Be a good boy.
2:26
All right.
2:27
So we get donors that will send us questions.
2:28
So you can either be a donor or a forging table.
2:31
And then you will be able to get in here, and you get to ask these questions.
2:35
And so we're going to do a little segment right now.
2:37
This is going to be our Ask a Pastor with Pastor Matt.
2:40
That's what we're going to be doing right now.
2:41
So we're going to be doing some low-key stuff.
2:42
You were not prepared with these questions beforehand.
2:44
I was.
2:45
And so I want to start out with like a really low-key one that that Joby had to answer.
2:50
And so we'll start there.
2:51
And then these guys have a couple of more and then we'll dig into Act six.
2:54
Should Christians attend gay weddings?
2:56
No.
2:57
Okay.
2:58
Very good.
2:59
All right.
3:00
Do you have anything to add to that?
3:01
No, I just think what marriage is as both a partnership for the kingdom of God and a sign
3:07
of God's covenant faithfulness to his people means it's a load-bearing wall for Christian
3:14
folk in our understanding of human flourishing.
3:19
And so to affirm a wedding with your presence that one can't biblically be that, it might
3:29
be that under the law, but it's certainly not under that in what I would call ultimate
3:34
reality, which is Christ enthroned at the center of the universe right now, not some
3:39
future happening right now.
3:41
Well, it's out of step with reality.
3:45
It works contrary to human flourishing.
3:48
And so I don't know why we would be there.
3:51
I don't even know why you would live your life in such a way that there might be confusion
3:58
about whether or not you should be invited.
4:00
Now, I will say this, I'm the pastor of a church, so I know it's far more complex than
4:06
I just let on.
4:07
I know I've had like, here's something that just happened at our church, a member whose
4:12
daughter was getting married.
4:13
He just tortured by whether or not to attend this wedding and he just wrestled and wrestled
4:20
and prayed and looped in his community.
4:23
And then he had a long conversation with his daughter.
4:27
She is not ignorant to where he lands on these things, but he wasn't going to walk her down
4:32
the aisle.
4:33
He was going to come and then he asked that if they did vows, they wrote their own vows
4:39
and didn't use historic Orthodox vows.
4:45
And then the daughter agreed to those things.
4:48
And so he did go to the wedding.
4:50
He did not walk her down the aisle and they wrote vows to each other rather than the historic
4:54
Christian vows that put that marriage into God's design and plan for marriage.
5:00
So I do think, you know, I was just like, no, and here's why, but I do understand there's
5:06
some complexities around family dynamics and stuff that you should take into consideration.
5:11
But it was just like your friend from college, no.
5:15
And I don't know that you going is going to be the thing that leads them to Jesus.
5:19
Which is always the argument.
5:20
That's always the argument.
5:21
And I'm telling you, I've been pastor in 30 something years, I've got a lot of people
5:25
from that lifestyle that got, you know, saved by Jesus Christ, I'm not saying they don't
5:30
have compulsions that they still have to lay before the Lord or I'm not talking about them
5:34
being healed.
5:35
I don't think it's a psychological issue.
5:37
I don't think it's a healing issue.
5:39
I think it's a lordship issue and a surrendering to Jesus issue.
5:43
And in that it, yeah, I don't, not a single one of them was like the kind of loose compassion
5:53
that my friend had for me is what led me to the Lord.
5:57
As you said before, during some of your sermons, like this old, old school Baptist church camp
6:02
idea where it's like, people are just going to look at you and they're going to see you
6:05
live a different life.
6:06
Yeah.
6:07
And they're just going to come up to you and they're going to be like, hey, why is your
6:09
life so different?
6:10
Mine's not like yours.
6:11
And then also you get it's like, has that ever happened like in the history of humanity?
6:14
It's like, hey, while you're doing yard work, you have a smile on your face.
6:17
Is there something different about you?
6:18
Tell me about it.
6:19
Let me tell you about it.
6:20
Tell me about your Jesus.
6:21
I think honest dialogue with gay friends, family members, where you're going to try as
6:31
best you can to help them understand one, your love for them and two, your strong disagreement
6:39
with how they've chosen to live.
6:41
And it will always go bad before it gets better, right?
6:46
Because, and I know this from quite a bit of work in this area and even some friends
6:51
in Lornonized life, it's very difficult for someone who has same sex attraction in this
6:59
current historical moment to divorce that from who they are.
7:04
Right.
7:05
So it's, it will always feel like an attack on personhood, even as you describe and define
7:12
terms.
7:13
So it's not.
7:14
It's very difficult for people in this moment.
7:17
My wife, one of her closest friends that this is, this is her and, and she has surrendered
7:24
to the Lord and she's married and she's got four beautiful kids and she's doing so well.
7:31
And she was so angry for so long at any kind of teaching on this because she couldn't tease
7:41
out what we were saying from how she saw herself.
7:44
So it wasn't that God hates sin.
7:47
It was God hates me and, and, and I just found, you know, what's great is where she is now.
7:54
We can have, we've had long conversations about this.
7:56
She's actually really helped me understand the animosity and the anger that flares so
8:00
quickly because it's in this historical moment.
8:06
This probably hadn't always been true.
8:08
It's near impossible for someone who's struggling with same sex attraction to tease it out from
8:14
their identity.
8:16
And, and so they will always hear and perceive, even if you're like over the top using rhetorical
8:22
devices to tease it apart for them, it's going to be really, you're going to need a work
8:26
of the spirit for, for someone to hear, even, and I'm not talking about a work of the spirit
8:31
for salvation.
8:32
That's right.
8:33
I'm saying a work of the spirit for someone to comprehend, you're not attacking me.
8:39
You're not rejecting me.
8:40
Well, now, Vodie, welcome to the deep dive and it's not like being black, his latest book
8:44
where he talks specifically about that, like that's part, that was part of the plan from
8:48
the beginning is to, and like, encircle your choices and your proclivities like into an
8:56
identity.
8:57
And so, you know, people made the argument before it's like, well, I have a proclivity
9:00
to sleep with every attractive woman that has ever walked the face of the earth.
9:04
But we don't see that as a morally acceptable thing to do.
9:07
But we're not going to get too far out that because we got to get, y'all get one bullet
9:10
each.
9:11
Okay.
9:12
So y'all get to fire one question because, you know, we do have to get to the text.
9:14
So who wants to go first?
9:15
You get one question for your live ask a pastor, but a pastor Matt, I had a good one and a second
9:20
good one.
9:21
Well, just do your good one then.
9:22
That's how that works.
9:23
Can you make it happen?
9:24
I can make it happen.
9:25
Okay.
9:26
Pick your favorite child.
9:27
Go for it.
9:28
You told me before we did this, and I had to, I couldn't ask him anything that make him
9:32
want to leave.
9:33
Well, that's why I boxed him in.
9:35
So we got the table, we got the wall and we got you, so it'll be more difficult.
9:38
And I know he has weak hips.
9:39
So if I need to get through here, I'm going to get into this last week, we did a deep dive
9:44
into the week Shakira is going on the other side of the table.
9:47
So you get one, hit it.
9:48
All right, your salsa.
9:49
We got to put that.
9:50
We got to put that in business.
9:51
Come on, Ryan.
9:52
Do it.
9:53
One bullet.
9:54
Sorry.
9:55
You're going to get upset about this one.
9:56
I bet I don't.
9:57
I'm mad.
9:58
So you've only got two artists you can listen to for the rest of your life.
10:01
Is it Nickelback or Taylor Swift?
10:03
This is easy.
10:07
Is it?
10:08
I don't know enough about either one of them.
10:11
What do you listen to?
10:12
I mean, it just depends on what other...
10:14
He listens to Gregorian chants.
10:16
Oh my gosh.
10:17
Do you listen to contemporary Christian music?
10:19
I don't.
10:20
I couldn't name you an artist.
10:21
I was like, other than some worship guys.
10:23
That is same.
10:24
So it's like right there.
10:25
Yeah, I still can listen to old hip hop.
10:28
I can listen to...
10:29
Like old hip hop like Coudini or like...
10:32
That's old old.
10:33
Two pop.
10:34
Yeah.
10:35
I think more two pop.
10:36
Okay.
10:37
And I like some good red dirt, country music.
10:42
Right.
10:43
Right.
10:44
Like here's a great Oklahoma band like the Turnpike Troubadours.
10:47
They're great.
10:48
I like Turnpike.
10:49
So I listen to a lot of Turnpike.
10:50
I can throw on some Merle.
10:52
I'll listen to some Merle Haggard.
10:54
Some old Willy.
10:55
But...
10:56
Back to the question.
10:57
Back to the question.
10:58
Yeah.
10:59
Yeah.
11:00
I know the two radio songs from Nickelback and two old songs from Taylor.
11:05
And so I'm going to go Taylor.
11:06
Okay.
11:07
I'm going to go Taylor.
11:08
Take the whole catalog.
11:09
Nickelback, Taylor.
11:10
Okay.
11:11
Sorry, Nickelback.
11:12
If y'all are listening to this.
11:13
It's not personal, guys.
11:14
It's not personal.
11:15
They're Canadian.
11:16
That's what it really divides it.
11:17
Yeah.
11:18
And I get them confused with Creed.
11:19
Yeah.
11:20
Well, hey, I was better than Nickelback.
11:21
Nickelback never went away, but Creed is making one of the greatest reunion comebacks ever.
11:25
They went away for like 12 years, and now they are back and they are back with a vengeance.
11:29
I'm going to have to Google that.
11:30
I had a Creed tribute band back in high school.
11:31
No, they announced that they were getting back together, and they did like a...
11:34
Yeah.
11:35
They did a cruise.
11:36
Show on a cruise, and then they're doing a tour.
11:37
By the time you guys listen to this, they will be in the middle of their nationwide tour.
11:40
They are back.
11:41
It's in November, and I'm trying to get tickets.
11:43
What do you mean, trying to?
11:44
You went to the eras tour.
11:45
You might as well get the Creed come back to her.
11:47
Let's go play.
11:48
I haven't paid for those tickets.
11:49
Get your company to pay for the Creed tickets like come on.
11:51
We can make this happen.
11:52
All right.
11:53
That was your one bullet.
11:54
All right.
11:55
Very good.
11:56
Zach, one bullet.
11:57
Okay.
11:58
Why would you look at me like that before?
11:59
What are you about to say?
12:00
You're making me pick between two.
12:01
Okay.
12:02
We have time at the end.
12:03
Hey, if we have time at the end, maybe we'll do that, but we got some jiu-jitsu to do.
12:06
So I'm going to go with the one that will be a little bit more serious, but I'm very
12:10
interested to hear your response.
12:11
I'm going to read a verse real quick actually too.
12:14
The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
12:19
That's Psalm 3418 and then 2 Corinthians 1, 3 through 4 says, praise be to God and father
12:25
of our Lord Jesus Christ, the father of compassion, the God of all comfort who comforts us and
12:29
all our troubles so that we can comfort those and any trouble with the comfort we ourselves
12:34
receive from God.
12:36
So I had a friend of mine stop by my house a couple of weeks ago just to drop some stuff
12:40
off just by happenstance and his wife was there.
12:43
My wife, we came outside, we were talking and he said, are you aware that a mutual friend
12:48
of ours committed suicide about a month ago?
12:53
And I thought about it for a minute and I said, I haven't talked to him in probably
12:56
year and a half.
12:57
I said, I was not aware of that, but it doesn't surprise me.
13:01
And the short version of this is this person who I've known for probably 13, 14 years,
13:05
I came from Texas, kind of a country, a gentleman, kind of a guy.
13:09
Or a cross on his ring, faith forward, sort of a person, six kids, I think all boys had
13:15
gone through a series of steps that led him to a divorce and some other things.
13:20
And then from what I was told, he recently had a fiance and he took his oldest to Europe
13:27
to spend some time.
13:28
And when he came back, evidently after all of those things had occurred, he chose to end
13:34
his life.
13:35
And the reason I'm asking you the question is because as I was talking with this mutual
13:38
friend of mine, I was reminded of what Kyle would talk about, three AM friends being
13:44
surrounded by community going through difficult things.
13:46
And as I was talking, I could see him saying, Zach, we did that.
13:50
We checked this off.
13:51
We had a group of men.
13:52
We were there.
13:53
We were on rotation.
13:54
We were walking with them for the last year and a half and just that exasperation and
13:59
anger, frankly, and then thinking about the boys being left over in all the circumstances.
14:03
And as I read these verses, I guess it's just kind of an application question.
14:07
You might have the head knowledge to say something, but how do you walk with somebody where that
14:11
just did not work out the way that you would think?
14:14
Yeah.
14:15
So I think an early lesson in ministry for me was that another guy has to be willing to
14:24
enter into what you're offering.
14:27
It doesn't matter what you're offering.
14:30
And so I could tell you a thousand guys over the last 30 years that said they wanted accountability.
14:37
I could point to dozens of guys who've disqualified themselves who had accountability.
14:42
And so we can no matter what we offer, the other guy has to be willing to come into what
14:49
we're offering.
14:50
We have so little control over what they'll actually receive or take advantage of.
14:56
And that's the powerlessness of being human.
15:00
And so you can be there and him not take advantage of that.
15:06
He can have 40 people to call and choose not to call one of them.
15:12
He can, you know, that kind of darkness that you're describing, it's all consuming.
15:17
You can't see or think or now he probably could have months ago or a year ago or then
15:26
he chose the isolation path.
15:29
But it even sounds like like I've had guys go dark on me that I've reached out to.
15:36
And they haven't wanted to come out of isolation.
15:40
They haven't wanted to enter into.
15:42
They haven't wanted to turn and face it, whatever it is.
15:46
And so what I've tried to do as a pastor is make myself as available as I can by the grace
15:52
of God to those who the Lord's put in my life and in my path.
15:57
And then they have to either take advantage of that.
16:00
It's not uncommon when I give my cell phone to someone to say, don't decide for me that
16:05
I'm too busy.
16:07
Like I'm a grown man.
16:09
And so if you call and I'm busy, I'm not going to answer.
16:11
You're not bothering me.
16:12
It's not going to answer.
16:13
I'm busy.
16:14
Leave me a message and I'll get back to you or text me.
16:17
And it might be a day, but I'll, I'll text you back.
16:20
But don't choose for me that I'm too busy for you.
16:24
I'm grown.
16:25
I get to make that decision.
16:26
You don't get to make that decision for me.
16:28
And so that's been something I've learned to say.
16:29
I think I've probably said it to Kyle and I'm like, don't, don't choose for me that I'm
16:34
too busy.
16:35
If, if I may, the very first time you and I ever spoke on the phone was when I was going
16:41
through something incredibly rough and was very, very confused.
16:46
And that's whenever we met.
16:47
I even made the joke.
16:48
I was like, this is like a really horrible way to meet somebody to hear like this terrible
16:52
story or something like that.
16:54
But, but that is true.
16:56
You have so many guys like my wife is more so wired like this, more so than I am.
17:00
She hates asking for things.
17:01
So some people hate asking for things because they've bought into this lie that you're
17:04
supposed to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and never ask for help.
17:07
She's the opposite where she doesn't want to ask for help because she doesn't want to
17:10
be seen as a burden.
17:11
Yeah.
17:12
Like she doesn't want anyone to be like, Oh, God, I got to do this.
17:14
Because in her mind, she's like, Oh, God, fine.
17:16
I'll do this for Kelsey.
17:17
Like.
17:18
And so that's her attitude.
17:20
And so she would not reach out to help for somebody because she would make that decision
17:24
for them that, Oh, well, they're, they're burdened.
17:26
They've got too much going on.
17:27
Like, Oh, they've got kids.
17:28
I wonder if they're not sleeping.
17:29
And so when she's going through her own Valley of the shadow of death or something like that,
17:34
she doesn't have those people because they don't know what's happening to her.
17:37
They don't know what's going on.
17:38
What about the friends that keep it tally when you want to help them?
17:40
What do you mean, like, Hey, I need to get some tables.
17:44
I'll go get them for you.
17:45
No, you've already done enough for me.
17:46
I'm keeping a tally.
17:47
Doesn't make any sense.
17:48
I don't know why anyone will do that, but there is a debt ledger for people.
17:52
And if you let a guy do too many favors for you, they're eventually going to call that
17:56
debt in.
17:57
But the point is, is that let those people help you because they want to help you and
18:00
they do it because they don't expect you, they don't expect a debt that you owe them.
18:04
Yeah.
18:05
Blesses them.
18:06
It blesses them to do it.
18:07
Yeah.
18:08
And so I don't want it.
18:09
I don't want to keep this going at all.
18:10
I don't want to be.
18:11
I don't want to be called out.
18:12
He got on me when I he's like, I need a table.
18:14
I was like, Oh, go to my sister's house and get it in Bethany.
18:16
He's like, No, no, no.
18:17
I already you're already far.
18:19
Yeah.
18:20
No, you're like, I determined for you that that was too grand of a gift.
18:23
So it's like, I'll run and get it.
18:26
I don't care.
18:27
In case some of these guys listen to this, just a quick follow up would be from a gospel
18:32
perspective.
18:33
I think I know the answer to this, but I'm not 100% to be honest with you.
18:37
In that situation, assuming that he did give his life to Christ in a genuine way, where
18:42
do you think he would be today?
18:43
Yeah, I think he's if he had given his life to Christ and had a relationship with God
18:49
through Christ, then he saved.
18:52
There is a darkness that you see even men in scripture get into that you can see is just
18:58
all consuming.
19:00
And in the scriptures, they all get to the other side of that, but you can see how like
19:05
I just think how much of a moron is Elijah?
19:09
I mean, he freaking just saw fire come down from heaven and he just slaughtered, however
19:17
many false prophets and priests of Baal, he's got evil on its heels.
19:24
And what does he do?
19:25
He gets scared and he runs and he's under a tree and he asks God to kill him.
19:28
And God's like, you need a stake in a nap, which I've loved that my whole, I mean, since
19:33
I first read it, I mean, not long after I became Christian, I was like, I'm freaking
19:36
love this story.
19:37
And I was like, you need protein in a nap.
19:39
You don't need, you don't need death.
19:41
And so yeah, I don't, I don't ascribe to the, that's the unforgivable sin.
19:46
I think that's a reach now, or, or people who'd be like, life in Christ is so butterfly
19:52
that you never get to those places as like, or there's the Psalms of descent.
19:56
Yes.
19:57
Exactly.
19:58
We just went over a bunch of them.
19:59
Yeah, we did.
20:00
And that's the thing.
20:01
It's like, man, if you can't understand the valley of the shadow death until you've walked
20:05
through it, you've felt the soil under your feet, you can smell the smells around you.
20:10
And those things don't leave you.
20:11
And we all kind of shared stories of our own values of the shadow death and they all got
20:15
related to our children, which, you know, no pain, like kid pain, spacer, drug, we like
20:18
to say.
20:19
And so that that's something that's very important for us as we move forward and get into act
20:23
six as well.
20:24
I had a second question, but because I kept y'all from firing your second bullet, I will
20:28
leave it.
20:29
But it's a doozy.
20:30
So let's see.
20:31
I don't want to sush.
20:32
Is it about proton hospitality?
20:33
It is not.
20:34
It is not that that was on the list that was on the short list, but we do need to get into
20:38
the text and we'll dig in in a sufficient level, but I do need to admit something from
20:42
the very beginning.
20:43
I'm the one that turned that light on.
20:44
And the reason I turned that light on, no, he did.
20:48
By the way, he locked the bathroom door here.
20:51
The studio.
20:52
It's like, who does that?
20:53
That's older than the age of three, but, but I thought you also turned this light on.
20:57
No, I did.
20:58
How?
20:59
Or why?
21:00
Because I had to get a Bible that you could actually read with text.
21:02
I was big enough to actually read out loud, which is exactly what you're going to do right
21:05
now.
21:06
You're hit.
21:07
You're going.
21:08
I'm up.
21:09
I don't know that you were up in the normal lineup, but you're up now.
21:10
That's what I've decided.
21:11
With Act six, you're doing verses one through seven.
21:13
Hit it.
21:14
Okay.
21:15
Now, in these days, when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenist
21:22
arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution.
21:28
And the 12th summon, the full number of the disciples, and said, "It is not right that
21:33
we should give up preaching the Word of God to serve tables.
21:36
Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the spirit
21:42
and of wisdom whom we will appoint to this duty, but we will devote ourselves to prayer
21:48
and to the ministry of the Word.
21:50
And what they said pleased to the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith
21:56
and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochras.
22:01
And I'm just saying with confidence, Nick, Nick, Nick, the canner or the canteen.
22:06
The canner and pharmace and Nicholas, a proselyte from Antioch.
22:12
These they set before the apostles, and they prayed and laid their hands on them.
22:17
And the Word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied
22:21
greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.
22:27
That was beautiful.
22:28
Man, that was nice.
22:29
It was so beautiful.
22:30
Nicely done.
22:31
Hey, when you get to those names, you just have to just make it up and just say with confidence.
22:35
And so one thing that I might be reaching here from the beginning, but again, I didn't grow
22:39
up in church.
22:40
And so like I missed out on VBS and I missed out on, you know, you know, false Greek church
22:44
camp here in Oklahoma.
22:45
I missed out on most of these things.
22:47
So I pick up on some of the kind of colloquialisms of Baptist, you know, ideology or whatever.
22:53
And one of the things that I've picked up was that everyone has their own set of gifts,
22:58
but there's no set of gifts that is above any other set of gifts.
23:02
They're just different.
23:03
And so similar to kind of complimentarianism, it's like you, you are equal in importance,
23:06
but you've been given different roles.
23:08
And if you put a value judgment on whether this role is more important than the other,
23:11
that's a youth thing.
23:12
That's not a God thing.
23:13
But I feel like this text and I couldn't really, as I dug into different commentaries,
23:17
get any, any comments on this, but it seems like there's an, at least an implication here
23:22
that word and prayer, the teaching of the word and you know, the action of prayer is
23:27
more important than serving.
23:29
And so again, that's me putting a value judgment on what I'm reading in the text.
23:32
But that's what it seems like to where it's like the apostles are like, no, no, no, no,
23:36
let's get some other people to do the serving stuff, the stuff that's maybe more so in their
23:39
wheelhouse.
23:40
But what we're doing, the preaching of the word and prayer, that is more important.
23:44
So am I reading something into the text there?
23:46
Well, one, let me just say that this is not a big VBS text.
23:50
Act six isn't.
23:51
Okay.
23:52
Yeah.
23:53
Not a lot.
23:54
Fair enough.
23:55
As we kids we're going to be on.
23:56
That's right.
23:57
You never know.
23:58
That means seized.
23:59
You never know.
24:00
Which is the next part of the text.
24:01
I think we even see the Apostle Paul talking about the one who teaches worthy of double
24:06
honor.
24:07
There are specific gifts, a subset of gifts that are at the forefront of how God is expanding
24:17
his kingdom.
24:18
But it doesn't put that gift set above the greater call to service.
24:23
So this is a specific act of service, in this case, working through this squabble between
24:29
the Hellenist and the Hebrews on daily distribution.
24:34
So they're saying, and I've ordered my whole, I mean, it's taken me 23 years, but my ministry
24:40
looks like this now.
24:42
But early on, it was me in the middle of this squabble about daily distribution.
24:49
But now 23 years later, there are people that would handle that daily distribution issue.
24:54
And I would get looped in on it.
24:56
This is what happened.
24:57
Just want to let you know.
24:58
You don't need to do anything, keep studying Jonah.
25:01
And so my job description now 23 years in is like I prep, pray, preach and pastor.
25:07
That's what I do.
25:08
That's my job description.
25:09
I don't run a single meeting at the village church.
25:12
I don't run our elder meeting chairman.
25:13
The elder board does that.
25:14
I don't run our exec staff.
25:15
Josh Patterson, our lead pastor does that or Nick Crawford, our other lead pastor does
25:20
that.
25:21
I pray and preach and pastor that that's what I do.
25:26
That's not, but I'm also not above in doing that the call to serve and to sacrifice.
25:35
But so this isn't, they're not saying that to go preach and pray is to not serve.
25:45
They're saying, I think what they're saying because of the rest of scripture is they're
25:49
saying, hey, this is an issue.
25:51
We need a category for people to handle this level of issue so that we can lead with with
25:55
clarity and preach with conviction and pray and ask the Holy Spirit to continue to move
26:00
in power.
26:02
And so the scriptures are going to say, hey, the one who teaches is worthy of double honor.
26:07
It's going to put maybe some greater weight on the gift of apostle and teacher and prophet.
26:15
But then Paul's going to swing back right around after he says that and says, can the
26:18
I say to the ear or can the foot say to the hand and so he's going, teach all you want.
26:27
But if no one's there to handle this issue between the Hellenists, it's going to start
26:31
falling apart on you.
26:33
And so there's a synergy of the gifts, which is what I think the scriptures are trying
26:38
to get across to people that you need to play your part well.
26:43
And like Shakespeare said, there are no small parts.
26:46
So with that in mind, for the people that are not naturally wired for the sexier gifts,
26:52
because like preaching is a sexy gift, people that can sing really well and that, you know,
26:57
have good theology in the words that they're singing, like those are really sexy.
27:00
But then there are people that have very good understanding of who they are and they're
27:04
like, well, that's, that's not me, like, I actually like doing the coffee in the mornings
27:08
and making sure that everyone's ready to go.
27:10
But there is that what people call it, the spirit of diminishment that comes on people
27:14
when they're like, yeah, but I'm just doing the coffee.
27:17
I'm just helping in the parking lot.
27:18
I'm just greeting out the door.
27:20
I'm just handing out this, that or the other thing.
27:22
Like what would your message be to people like that that are just, they feel like they
27:26
are lesser than because they don't, they aren't on stage with the mic on their face.
27:29
Well, I think it's a lie of the enemy.
27:31
And I think even the Apostle Paul talks about those with those kinds of gifts as being, you
27:38
know, you need to recognize those like nobody, the gallbladder is not sexy, but let it go
27:42
bad on you.
27:43
See what happens.
27:45
And that's Paul's argument and why he uses the body the way he does.
27:48
Anybody listening to this that had their gallbladder flare, they're a mini me right
27:52
now because it's, I've seen two people go through and it's brutal.
27:55
I mean, on the ground in the fetal position wanting to die and it's the, it's jobs to
28:00
produce bile.
28:01
Yeah.
28:02
Not very sexy.
28:03
No, no.
28:04
I mean, probably the least sexy.
28:05
I don't know.
28:06
Maybe I'm not going to say.
28:07
Yeah.
28:08
I'm going to filter.
28:09
I'm going to filter myself.
28:11
That's growth.
28:12
Yeah.
28:13
My team listening is proud of me.
28:14
They're like, I saw it.
28:15
We did it.
28:16
Much already.
28:17
Proud of you, buddy.
28:18
Or closer.
28:19
Yeah.
28:20
Not there, but closer.
28:21
So, so I, I want to with the place that the Lord put me to be very vocal towards those
28:28
people and encourage them in their giftedness and remind them how big of a deal it is.
28:36
And what's been interesting to me as people who don't know me, meet me is that that can
28:43
be seen as strange.
28:44
So, I don't know what the hell's going on out there, but like I just got asked to be
28:48
on a podcast for production guys because a guy came in and just saw the friendship I
28:55
had with Wes, you know, I poured him a cup of coffee, I brought it back, I thanked him
28:59
for the morning and this guy was so disoriented that I brought Wes a cup of coffee and spoken
29:06
to him before he spoke to me, that he was like, can you guys come on and talk about the
29:10
nature of your relationship?
29:12
And then, but I'm telling you, Wes is the one that makes the weekend go, like I, and
29:17
I know this because we had a power surge Saturday night and lost power and I've got my sermon,
29:23
but without Wes doing what he does, only the first, in my case, 25, 30 rows are going to
29:30
hear that and so what he brings to bear in his unique giftedness, like everybody that
29:39
comes to the Southern gathering, Sunday gathering experiences, that's a profound gift and he's
29:46
so good at it that like my wife knows when he's on the board and when he's not on the
29:51
board, like she literally can hear it, I don't have that ear, she's a musician and she's
29:56
got that ear and she'll be like, Wes went on the board, this morning, was he?
30:01
Which is, we're not maligning the other people that are on the board that are potentially
30:04
listening to this.
30:05
No, they're excellent.
30:06
It's Lauren.
30:07
I'm, I'm dogging my wife.
30:08
Okay.
30:09
How dare you, Lauren?
30:10
Yeah.
30:11
But the, the cool thing about that.
30:12
So every year, the first podcast of the year is how to avoid being a crappy man in that
30:15
year and it's, you know, 15 to 18 different things like, you know, hey, don't let sports
30:18
ruin your night.
30:19
No porn, no jerking off like don't, don't pretend, you know, something that you don't
30:22
know, but one of the things that I added this last year is be nice.
30:26
I didn't say it this way.
30:27
It's the only way it's coming to my brain right now, but it's like be nice to the help.
30:30
Be nice to the people that are serving you your coffee, that are bringing you your dinner,
30:34
that are delivering something to your house because it's like such a low bar and it really
30:39
is.
30:40
And even some people, they have, they apparently have a phone book vertical because they can't
30:44
jump over that bar because you, and we've been in this because we've been in enough business
30:48
meetings between the people at this table and you watch how people treat their assistance
30:53
and watch how they treat their subordinates or watch how they treat certain people.
30:57
And then they turn to you and give you their full attention because they need something
31:00
from you or because, you know, they're trying to like keep this relationship going.
31:04
And it's like, man, you're, you're kind of a jerk, like it's just like, I won't trust
31:08
a man like that.
31:09
Yeah, some people like I know you guys golf and like, but like when you see how someone
31:12
plays golf and they don't know that you can see them and they kick their ball out from
31:15
the rough back into the green and things like that, it's like you learn things about, about
31:20
people and the liberties that they take in in jujitsu.
31:23
Those guys that get a little aggro, they hold on to a sub a little bit too long after you
31:28
sub them.
31:29
Yeah.
31:30
And you can see that ego coming up and that's, that's another thing why what I like about
31:32
jujitsu is because it's like, I know where the limits are for these people because this
31:37
is a, this is simulated death, death match that we're going through right now.
31:41
And it's like, if you can't handle it or if you get up and you storm off the map because
31:44
you got beat by someone that's not as good as you, which is what I had done down at the
31:48
white belt level, it's like you've, you've got to know the people around you are mature
31:51
enough to be able to handle the fire.
31:54
And again, you can just see these signs and people just based on how they react to others.
31:58
Yeah.
31:59
I've been really fortunate in my life to have a lot of mentors and a lot of leadership
32:03
training and things like that.
32:04
And across the board, all of them, especially the ones you respect, I think they would all
32:09
say the number one trade for a leader is humility, period.
32:13
And once you're at a certain point where you understand that everybody's contributing,
32:17
you know, every single one of those contributors is critical for the operation to succeed.
32:22
The same, uh, buddy of mine was in development group.
32:25
So that's seal team six and, um, I can't remember if I asked him about this.
32:30
There was a part of a different book.
32:31
It was like a Marine that wrote or something like that, but they were talking about how
32:34
they got back after a mission and they'd be dirty and they'd been outside the wire for
32:38
a long time and they're covered in like blood and, you know, some of their, you know, best
32:41
friends, brains, or still in their pants, you know, these horrible situations and they
32:44
would get back to base for these guys that never left the wire and they would just have
32:47
this tremendous amount of disdain for them.
32:49
And my buddy said, I remember we went on a mission that was around Thanksgiving.
32:53
And again, this is development group.
32:54
These guys are going out on capture kills every single night, like they're getting kinetic
32:57
every single night, right?
32:58
They're, they're the literal tip of the spear and they get back to base and by the time they
33:03
got back to base after doing, you know, taking out these high value targets, um, the only
33:07
thing left of the turkey dinner were rolls, rolls and butter.
33:12
And so no mashed potatoes, no turkey, no ham.
33:14
This is a way, which by the way, are you team hammer team Turkey for Thanksgiving or
33:21
just general team hammer team Turkey Turkey.
33:24
Yeah.
33:25
Someone just got added to team, that's one of the biggest debates other than Calvinism.
33:29
That is the biggest debate at this table, which is what team are team hammer team Turkey.
33:33
Why Turkey?
33:34
Uh, I like it.
33:35
No, it's so do I, I like it, but oh, but over ham, yeah, over ham, like just like, if
33:42
I gave you a ham steak, you'd be like, ah, do you have any Turkey back there?
33:45
No, I would just thank you for the ham steak, but God gave Peter a dream for a reason.
33:50
I agree.
33:51
What, what did he dream about?
33:52
Well, it didn't dream about salad divine.
33:53
Why?
33:54
Yeah.
33:55
The bacon I ate this morning, extra crispy, extra crispy, but like part of that animal
33:59
is the ham, right?
34:00
He's not like, Oh, you know, rise, kill and eat Turkey.
34:03
Yeah.
34:04
He didn't say that.
34:05
He was already on the menu.
34:06
Okay.
34:07
I don't know.
34:08
We had to bring two birds to the temple, man.
34:09
Good.
34:10
Okay.
34:11
That's very disappointing.
34:12
But I guess we'll have to plug through.
34:13
So we were worried about you [inaudible] him off so bad that he'd leave and now we got freaking
34:16
team Turkey guy over here.
34:17
Okay.
34:18
Well, we got to get back to story.
34:19
But ultimately his point when the story was he remembers, you know, again, he had just
34:23
got back from killing a bad guy and here are these guys with no calluses on their hands,
34:27
completely clean uniforms, hadn't sweated today and they went back for seconds for Turkey
34:32
and stuffing, and dressing and mashed potatoes and all the fixings.
34:36
And he remembers being so angry at these men and it wasn't until later where he had, you
34:41
know, matured a little bit and said, there's no way I could have gone on that mission without
34:46
the guys that filled up the humbies with gas, the guys that made sure that we had a place
34:51
to sleep, the engineers that like built our outpost, the guys that were handling the ammunition
34:56
that got to where we could even load it in our magazines, the guys that checked our weapons,
35:00
the guys this, this, this, and then they didn't fly the planes to get themselves into country.
35:04
They didn't do any of those things.
35:06
And so it was just a difference in perspective from them to where it's like, all right, we're
35:09
doing a different job, but we're all part of the same mission.
35:12
Yeah.
35:13
So as we get, there's really only two main sections of Act six, but we get a hint as to
35:17
the, to the section after this in verse seven, when it says in the word of God continued
35:21
to increase and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem and a great
35:25
many of the priests became obedient to the faith.
35:28
That's likely the main reason why Steven was maligned and targeted because there were important
35:33
men that thought one way that completely shifted and changed and went in other direction.
35:38
So Zach, how about you read the rest of Act six?
35:40
That is versus eight through the end, which is 15.
35:46
And Steven, full of grace and power was doing great wonders and signs among the people.
35:51
Then some of those to belong to the synagogue of the freed men, as it was called, and of
35:57
the Cyreneans and of the Alexandrians and of those from Cecilia and Asia rose up and
36:03
disputed with Steven, but they could not withstand the wisdom in the spirit with which
36:08
he was speaking.
36:09
Then they secretly instigated men who said, we have heard him speak blasphemous words
36:14
against Moses and God and they stirred up the people and the elders and the scribes and
36:19
they came upon him and seized him and brought him before the council and they set up false
36:24
witnesses who said, this man never ceases to speak words against the holy place and
36:30
the law.
36:31
For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and will
36:35
change the customs that Moses delivered to us and gazing at him, all who set and the
36:40
council saw that his face was like the face of an angel.
36:44
So a few things here, though, the one thing that I really like, which again, there's a
36:50
reason why people re-listen to songs.
36:51
There's a reason why people re-watch movies is because you notice things about the songs
36:55
and about the movies.
36:57
Same thing with scripture.
36:58
I don't know how many times I've read Acts 6 and I've read full of grace and power and
37:03
never thought about it in the context of what we talk about all time on on on a life is
37:07
where it's like, okay, it's grace and power.
37:10
It's grace and truth.
37:11
It's tough and tender.
37:13
And so Moody had a short sentence about this.
37:15
It's the attractiveness of character and the strength of spirit.
37:19
We have so many people now, whether it's in the, you know, Christian men's podcast space
37:23
or in ministry space, that they want to focus on one or the other.
37:27
And I always talk about the pendulum has swung so far to the grace side, to the lamb
37:31
of God side, to the detriment of the understanding of the lion of Judah.
37:35
We don't have that side of it really at all.
37:37
But the problem is we have people that only do the aggro lion of Judah thing and they don't
37:41
think about, okay, yeah, tough.
37:43
I get it.
37:44
There is a major deficiency of tough in our culture, but to the detriment of tender also
37:49
becomes a problem for the same people who are so tender naturally that they don't really
37:52
work on the tough.
37:53
So that, that struck me from the very beginning that Steven was both and it's elucidated
37:57
here directly in the text.
38:00
That was a great point, Kyle.
38:01
Fantastic.
38:02
I love that air.
38:03
It's like my favorite.
38:04
So did we go ahead and wrap?
38:05
Do we just need to go to the outside?
38:06
I was thinking, I was thinking of, uh, of, uh, Steven's face and how it lit up.
38:10
Yeah.
38:11
And so it reminded me back in Exodus when Moses's face shone bright after he saw God.
38:16
Yeah.
38:17
So the transfiguration where they lit up there.
38:20
So it's kind of showing God's presence, um, RC sprawl, I think said it best.
38:24
He said, Steven's face, uh, was not the ugliness of his, of his, of his accusers.
38:29
So the accusers were staring at him with ugliness and, and wanting to be hostile towards him.
38:34
He goes, instead it was the grace and loveliness of God.
38:38
And so I think it just kind of shows that, you know, Peter was bringing the truth or not
38:44
Peter, excuse me.
38:45
He was bringing the truth and, uh, and God shown his grace upon him and that you could
38:49
see it upon his face as he was going through, you know, probably, probably the worst trial.
38:55
He's probably going to go through because he's spoiler alert.
38:57
What happens next week?
38:58
Yeah.
38:59
Yeah.
39:00
I love the line, but they could not withstand his wisdom and the spirit with which he was
39:07
speaking, but that spirit there is capitalized.
39:11
Um, and then so it doesn't, and man, I think probably everybody at this table has experienced
39:16
this, it, it doesn't devolve into violent chaos and seeking his death until they're just
39:26
getting slaughtered without an argument by this man who knows and sees and is full of
39:32
the spirit, but also speaking wisdom in what he's saying.
39:35
So he's giving a defense and we don't, we don't get the defense in the text.
39:40
We're going to get a sermon, uh, which I think is one of the best sermons in the Bible.
39:43
But he, he, he's arguing them in a way that's exposing them and they, they don't have either
39:55
the capacity or the grace to hear it.
39:58
And, and so instead of going, Oh my gosh, maybe I'm wrong.
40:02
They instead hatched this scheme to get him killed and, and make up arguments and, you
40:10
know, the number of times people have said, I mean, you said, I was like, I didn't say
40:13
anything like that.
40:14
I didn't say anything like that.
40:15
You, you heard that, but I didn't say that.
40:16
Well, they also twist words.
40:17
They twist Christ words in here where Jesus from the Azers will destroy this place and
40:22
will change the customs of Moses delivered to us.
40:24
You know, it's like Jesus is talking about the temple.
40:26
He was a temple.
40:27
Correct.
40:28
They're, they're, they're twisting the words just like Satan does in the desert to malign
40:32
him.
40:33
Well, and I think that's an important thing to look at this is as you say so often, Matt,
40:38
it's like the Bible is not about us.
40:39
Actually you scream it while at other people's churches and melt their ministries down around
40:42
them.
40:43
And that's when you say it.
40:44
So you're not David.
40:45
The Bible's not about you.
40:46
I think he's doing fine.
40:47
TRT is amazing.
40:48
It's amazing.
40:49
He's got nice shoes.
40:50
Yeah.
40:51
He's got the fancy shoes.
40:52
But the thing about it is, is we do look at the Bible and we, we do try to find our place
40:55
in it because there are parts of the Bible that are not just descriptive.
40:58
They are prescriptive.
40:59
Yeah.
41:00
One of the things here is that we see in our modern moment when you see people that are
41:04
on the left of basically every issue in culture, the moment you start arguing the point, they
41:11
don't want to talk anymore.
41:13
That's where they're just going to start banging on their drum or screaming through their loudspeaker.
41:17
It's because they can't defend their arguments based on the merits of their arguments.
41:22
And so they have bought into the lie that their level of outrage equals their level of
41:26
rightness. And so that's one thing I tell people when I do my defeating pro-abortion
41:31
arguments talk, which you got to see Liva, Zach was down there with us in Jacksonville
41:34
when we did that earlier this year, it's like, look, the first one to raise their voice
41:38
loses. Like if you go off half cocked and start screaming, like that's, that's very
41:42
problematic because it makes you look foolish and it makes your argument look weaker by
41:46
default. And so it's like, if you can maintain yourself and keep calm and maintain your character
41:52
and understand that they're going to jump from this argument to that argument to that
41:55
argument, because if the goal pulse doesn't move, then they will eventually lose the game.
41:59
It's a very, very important thing for us to remember. And it goes all the way back to
42:02
this time, like, this isn't new. Like, this isn't a new tactic of Satan. Like, it's like,
42:07
Hey, we can't argue these points in there in a culture where obviously philosophy and
42:12
argumentation is very, very important. They just couldn't argue there. They had to fight
42:16
it on a different plane.
42:17
Yeah, the power of words, like going back to where it says, no man's ever spoke like
42:21
he spoke, in reference to Jesus. And obviously what happened here with Stephen, incredibly
42:26
powerful. And when you see somebody who's speaking through the spirit and generally speaking,
42:31
I'd say a calm, collected way, it's just it's extremely powerful.
42:36
When there is something to be said for a firebrand, right? And then there's something to be said
42:41
for somebody that calmly dismantles an argument. And there, there's an example that explicitly
42:47
comes to mind. But there are so many people that very calmly will destroy an entire level
42:52
of argumentation. I guess like a, oh, when I've watched some debates, literally, Irish
42:58
guy been on my show, he's done debates with the atheist, John Linux. So Linux, so good.
43:05
It's a masterclass. So first of all, the Irish accent, you know, shout out to my people.
43:09
Appreciate the Celtic people. But so in it, that all automatically adds an action on them.
43:14
It automatically adds like 10, you know, IQ points. But whenever he does things and he
43:18
does it with like a glint in his eye, whenever he's asking these questions. Yeah, because
43:22
he will talk a little bit about that. So it's that playfulness that makes him so effective
43:26
because I'm default aggressive. I'm default combative. And so I have to work to put myself
43:31
in a place of let's just play around a little bit, right? It's just it's just a difference
43:35
in approach to a situation that tends to work a lot better.
43:37
Yeah, GK Chesterton was the wizard of this. He would be so playful as he just dismantled
43:43
your whole belief system in front of the crowd. It's interesting lineage, too, because that's
43:48
who Lewis would talk about. And Linux in some ways is sort of downstream of Lewis having
43:53
attended his conference. Yeah, I mean, I think Linux, when he went to Oxford, he attended
43:57
one of C.S. Lewis's very last lectures. Correct. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Same kind of personality.
44:03
One in here towards the end as well. I think we've already talked about just a little bit,
44:07
but verse 14 again, for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy
44:11
this place and will change the customs that Moses delivered to us. So Ryan, you're exactly
44:15
right in pointing this out earlier where it's like, okay, they're doing this to shift the
44:19
plane of the argument. They're trying to do another battlefront. But they're so concerned
44:24
about the way things were and the way things have always been done. This is constantly the
44:29
argument made against conservatives, which is like, Hey, I get it that this is the way
44:34
it's always been, but that doesn't mean it's going to be the best way moving forward. The
44:38
people typically making that argument are I'm not making it from a moral place, however,
44:43
but I will say for me, I hate change. When I put things in place, I want them to stay there
44:47
and I don't want them to change unless it is a guarantee that they will improve. But whenever
44:52
you get to something like this, like again, I follow the kind of the Jordan Peterson rule
44:56
when he talks about, you know, the the police force I was in Poland, I believe, they were
45:01
just guys working for the police force. And this is described in the book, Ordinary Men.
45:05
And then all of a sudden they were taking Jewish women and children out into the middle
45:08
of the woods, stripping them naked and then having them shot and left in mass graves.
45:14
And it just got there one step at a time. And Jordan Peterson has helped me realize it's
45:17
like, you can't assume that you wouldn't have been that person either. Because we can look
45:22
back as a CS Lewis describes as chronological snobbery. We look at everyone that was born
45:26
like before us as simpletons and you know, they played with dirt and that was basically
45:29
their entire existence. But at the same time, you can't assume that you wouldn't have had
45:35
your moral compass shifted just a half a degree, a half a degree, half a degree. And then all
45:39
of a sudden you're shooting Jewish women in the back of the head. It's just like looking
45:42
at the apostles and you can read Jesus's frustration with them. Oh man, like how are
45:45
these guys just dumb? But like, I'm dumb. We need that. We need that in the text. Yes.
45:51
I'm just as dumb as like, I'm just as like, don't see it, can't see it, you know, or understand
45:57
it. I'm just as dumb as those guys. As much as I think like, man, they just don't get
46:01
it. It's like, I don't get it either. And I think go ahead. Good. And I think that's
46:05
where it kind of looks down where you have to look at yourself and know that there's
46:08
a reason you need Christ. And that's because you don't know everything. You will never
46:12
know everything and you're just as dumb as the guy you think is dumb.
46:15
Well, and we go when we were going through Matthew, that's again, the book that Johnny
46:20
Elder wrote, "Beautiful Outlaw" was a very important book for me. And a lot of people
46:23
hate that book and, oh, you know, he's reading things into the text. But overall, the argument
46:28
he's making in that book is don't read the Gospels or any part of the Bible for that
46:32
matter as if there's no personality happening in the text. And so this idea that Jesus was
46:37
never playful, was never sarcastic, was never angry, was never biting, was never direct.
46:44
If you read the Bible and then Jesus walked over to the person and he said this, it's
46:48
like, okay, you might think that Jesus was just this holy robot, but it's like, man,
46:51
no, this was a dude. Like this was an early 30s, Middle Eastern Jewish construction worker
46:56
that walked around with another 12 dudes. You're telling me that Peter never tripped
47:00
and fell whenever they were on a road to someplace and that they didn't bring it up at dinner
47:03
and give him a little bit of crap.
47:04
Week hips, Peter.
47:05
Yeah, poor Peter, he's just having some issues. We'll keep working on those hips, Ryan, don't
47:10
you worry. But that's the thing that's helpful in this text as well to where it's just like,
47:13
hey, we would have been those dumb people as well. And that was helpful as I was reading
47:16
through and being like, Jesus told you he was coming back and you were shocked that he
47:21
came back. How? How are you this dumb? I'm like, wait a minute, you're that dumb cop.
47:25
Like you were certainly that dumb. And I wonder like his, I would have loved to, and you know,
47:30
the Bible is the Bible. It's he gave us what we needed for life and practice, but I would
47:36
have loved to been given some insight into like what arguments is he dismantling before,
47:46
because what we see in his sermon, but this is next week, is he's making the claim that
47:52
Judaism isn't the end game. There's a different end game and the end game has to be, you know,
48:00
has to do with Christ as Messiah and then for the whole world. And so he, this call to destroying
48:09
the temple and, you know, changing the traditions of Moses is he's actually doing that. But what
48:16
he's doing, and again, this is next week, not this week, he's going to make the argument
48:21
that Judaism wasn't God's end goal. But there was something else that was right. And that's
48:28
the thing that when all said and done, it's going to send anybody everybody into a rage.
48:34
Well, and I will tell you that for someone again, so did you grow up in church? I can't,
48:37
I can't remember, Matt, the kind of pseudo ish Ryan, I mean, I grew up in a church, right,
48:43
in a church, Zach around it, around it. So I basically didn't grow up at all. You and I,
48:47
both Ryan and I, we were both baptized in a church Christ, but we were basically force-dipped.
48:53
I guess you could say it's like my mom, you know, on the way home one day from the church,
48:56
she forced us to go to that. We hated. She's like, yeah, y'all think you think y'all want
48:59
to get baptized next week? And I was like, yeah, cool. Because I thought my grandmother had really
49:03
bad cancer and she was baptized a few days before she died. And I was like, oh, okay,
49:07
you have all the sin on you. And then you go in that holy water and they pull you out and then
49:11
you're not going to be able to get accumulate that many more sins by the time you actually
49:15
croak. And so that's the way to do it. But the thing that is, that's important as we work through
49:20
something like this is we have to reckon with what is the narrative of the entire scripture.
49:26
And one thing that's helpful for me, especially when I read the Old Testament is I think,
49:29
how does this point to Christ? Okay, whether I'm reading Nehemiah or Isaiah, how does this point
49:33
to Christ? And next week, guys, just another commercial for next week, for a guy that didn't
49:39
grow up in church, for a guy that doesn't have the Old Testament stories and characters just like
49:44
right here, because I went to VBS and I went to Alwana and I went to all these different things.
49:47
It is so helpful to just read those first few sections of Acts seven,
49:52
because it gives you the spark notes of the entire Old Testament. And it's so powerful for me.
49:58
There was one thing I wanted to bring up. Go for it. I don't know what I was talking about was,
50:05
you know, about Stephen talking about the gospel going out to the world. I think earlier in this
50:11
chapter, I think we kind of didn't go over, but it was against the Hellenists and the Hebrews,
50:15
and one was a Greek Hebrew and one was a Jewish Hebrew. And there was like, was there some
50:19
partiality going on in there? That's the inference. Yeah, and the inference, so the
50:23
inference is like there's some partiality going on where the Jewish Hebrews think that they're more
50:27
worthy than the Greek Hebrews. And I think like in Stephen as a part of this group of deacons who
50:33
are all Hellenists, I believe, if I read it correctly, I think that was a moody commentary.
50:37
But now going into Judaism is already kind of growing outside of the Hebrew into the Greek,
50:43
and now they're bringing in all these different kinds of Gentiles.
50:47
Right, because all the names listed were Greek names, which implied that that's how they were
50:51
dealing with this issue is by being like, hey, let's have some people in these seats where it
50:55
makes sense for. Yeah, and I just think that's crazy to look at that and then go into Stephen's
50:59
when you go into Stephen's argument. Well, this is going to make some of us happy,
51:03
but we've been so efficient with our discussion that it seems as if we've got another bullet for
51:08
each of us that we can fire off in the ask a passer. So we are going to pick up the ask a passer
51:13
with passer mat section here at the very very end. But again, we got some jujitsu we got to go to,
51:17
so we have to be somewhat efficient with our time. So Ryan, go with your second question.
51:22
I will let him go. Why? Why? What's wrong? You don't want to hear anything about contemporary
51:26
Christian music? That was my second question. Oh, you got to come up with everyone? Okay, fair
51:29
enough. All right, Zach. Yeah, I really don't. That makes me like you more. I know this one's a
51:35
little lighter, but how can we reconcile Jesus teaching and like Matthew 634 not to worry about
51:42
tomorrow with biblical principles of careful planning and productivity like found in Proverbs
51:47
and the assurance that worrying doesn't add to our lives. So finally, how can we faithfully
51:53
balance trusting God with also responsibly planning for the future in a way that glorifies him?
51:59
Yeah, I think there are two different things that play there. I think worrying about tomorrow
52:04
is not the same thing as stewarding and preparing for the future. So there what I think what Jesus
52:11
has in view there when he's talking about worry or anxiety is trying to take on all the issues
52:21
of tomorrow in this very moment in a way that we're not we're not omnipotent. We're not omnipresent.
52:27
We're not omniscient. Only God is. So let God be God. But then you, like you've said in the Proverbs,
52:34
it's clear that there's wisdom and there's a way to prepare for tomorrow that we should
52:38
be preparing for tomorrow. And then another layer would be, but where's our ultimate hope?
52:44
And so I have a retirement plan. I give to that retirement plan. I did a 529 plan for my kids
52:52
college. I've done those things, but I'm not and I've got a number I'm trying to work towards even.
52:58
I mean, I've got a number that this is this is what I'd like to have when I don't even know. I don't
53:03
think I'm going to retire. So I mean, I'm not I'm not going to be the pastor of the village forever,
53:07
but I so I don't sit well. And so I think the idea of worry and anxiety and the idea of stewardship
53:16
are actually two different issues, not not the same issue. So it's not to be a good steward
53:24
of your wealth in in preparation for the future doesn't make you a worrier.
53:31
There might be a way that you worry while you do that. So if you're like checking those numbers
53:36
every day and every time you read that something happened with the Dow, you log on your and it's
53:42
keeping you up at night because you're not sure how you're going to hit that number that you want to
53:45
hit it retiring. You're you know, you're 55 and you're listening to us today and that reminds you,
53:49
Oh my gosh, what are my numbers? And you if that's happening now we're in that space. But but it's not
53:56
it's not not worrying to to prepare for your your future in the culture that we're in.
54:06
Would you say there's a line of worrying and fear that you've crossed into that's just not
54:10
the clue it's not from. Yeah, I think that's what you're trying to watch. Like, are you obsessive
54:15
about this? Are you is your whole future built on this? And I'm not I'm just saying where where's
54:21
ultimately your hope in in your in your later days? And we want to it's wise to prepare. It's
54:31
good stewardship to prepare. And like it's like budgeting, right? Like I'm I'm not I'm not worried
54:39
that I won't be able to pay my mortgage and feed my family. Right.
54:43
I'm not worried about that because I've prepared a budget and we're living off of that budget.
54:49
And so I know what's coming in and I know what's going out and there could be a thousand things
54:52
happen and I have an emergency fund for that. And that emergency fund isn't because I don't trust
54:57
God. It's because I do trust God. And he's given me the means by which to steward well,
55:00
the life he's given me. And so I like I said, I think those are I think you should be a very
55:06
good steward of the resources. And and that's time treasures and talents. That's a whole thing,
55:12
a good steward of the life God's given you. And I think there's wisdom woven into that and that
55:17
good stewardship oftentimes leads to quite a bit of blessing. Yeah. Okay, Ryan, you've had time to
55:23
prepare. Are we ready to talk about women in the church? I did tell you that we were wrong
55:28
limited time here that we got things to do. First Peter three seven, I'm going to read it real quick.
55:34
Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in understanding, in an understanding way, excuse me,
55:40
showing honor to a woman as a weaker vessel. Since they are heirs with you of the grace of life,
55:47
so that your prayers may not be hindered. My question is, what does Peter mean by weaker
55:55
vessel? And then how can we be better at showing our wives honor and grace as he talks about in
55:59
this passage? Yeah, I believe, so let me preface it like that, the illusion there is to porcelain,
56:07
that they're like porcelain, they're, they're easier to break. I think you can tease that out
56:15
to me and all sorts of other things that that I think are in and around that text. But I think
56:20
just with four guys, there's a way that we treat one another, maybe because of, you know,
56:27
trauma from childhood or because nobody taught us how to be vulnerable with one another,
56:32
but there's a way that we would talk. There's ways I talk to dudes. I don't talk to my wife.
56:37
There's there's tones and there's places I go with a man. I would never go with my wife. One,
56:46
she would be very frightened by it.
56:48
Don't let him read your group next. She would be very frightened by it. And it would be,
56:55
it would be counterproductive in what I would want to see the Lord doing in her heart. Like if I'm
57:00
coming to hearted a man, it's because I have a desire for him to grow into the fullness of what
57:07
Christ has for him. And he's being a [inaudible] or something. And I just need to call it what it is
57:11
in the moment. And I'm just not going to, Lauren's not going to be able to hold up under the way to
57:17
that. She's just not. And I would say most women are not able to hold up under the weight of that,
57:24
which is why if you go to a men's retreat, everything's different about that than even it is on Sunday
57:31
morning. And it's certainly going to be different at a women's retreat. And I'm not talking about
57:35
the essence of truth. I'm talking about the contextual reality of how do you speak to other
57:40
men? How do you speak to women? They are different. And I think that's in view there. And then I think
57:48
the second part of your question is, I want to know and be intimately acquainted with
57:56
how my wife hears and experiences me. And so we've been married 25 years next month. And
58:04
one of the ways we've got language that helps us now, just because we know each other well.
58:08
So she would say of me that I don't have a one to five. I just have a five to 10.
58:15
And so I will think I'm a two and I'm coming off as a seven. And I don't mean that. I'm not even
58:23
feeling that. It's just how people experience me. This is a lot of pain behind this lesson,
58:28
not just at home, but all over my life, because I'll feel like I am so chill right now. And people
58:35
will feel like nervous for themselves. I'm like, no, I'm in two. What? I get that all the time.
58:41
Two. And so Lauren has, Lauren will at times just say, Hey, I don't think you're like at a seven or
58:53
eight here, but I need you to try to find a two or three. And yeah, you probably think you are.
59:01
Maybe you don't. Maybe you are [inaudible]. But you know, I need you. And it's her way of,
59:06
I saw Matt Arroyo, who's a MMA guy, coach. And when he coaches MMA fighters, they, and they get
59:13
to the corner and they're, you know, they can't, he'll give him a math. He'll just be like, Hey,
59:18
what's seven plus four? Okay, great. When's your daughter's birthday? And when they're able to
59:22
answer questions like that, he's now pulled them into their prefrontal cortex. And now they'll be
59:27
able to listen. Well, Lauren's little, Hey, I think you might, I think you think you're like
59:33
at a three or four, but you're, you're coming off like you're really upset and you're really,
59:38
can you, can you come down? Like, like that's a game in our marriage now. Well, it's learned
59:43
language in our marriage where Lauren can help me speak to her in a way that she's not going,
59:50
is he mad at me? Is he, what's he so frustrated about? What is he, because I'm not, I'm just,
59:55
I'm not brash per se. I'm just a passionate person. And so I can very passionately be
1:00:02
agreeing with you. And Lauren will feel like, is he, are we fighting? Is he a legend? Are we
1:00:07
fighting right now? And I'm like, no, dinner was amazing. You know, it's so that that's one of the
1:00:12
ways that we've had to figure it out. But that would be one sort of question. One turns a
1:00:15
relatability. Like I know you're a big jock of willing guy, a Zach. And so I remember him telling
1:00:19
a story about he would come home from jujitsu, or you'd come home from hanging out with like his
1:00:23
Navy SEAL buddies. And you know, his wife would be like, Hey, I'm not a Navy SEAL. And like it's that,
1:00:30
that play in my wife has had this similar conversation with me because I'm very similar as well. Like,
1:00:34
I've got neutral and, you know, final gear, right? Yeah, it's like, if it's worth doing,
1:00:39
it's worth overdoing. And so that's kind of like my entire life. And so she'll just be like,
1:00:43
Hey, hey, I'm like, I'm here and she'll start, she'll pet me a little bit. And she'll just be like,
1:00:47
Hey, um, I can tell that you're not mad. No one else can tell. Like, and because she's been around
1:00:53
me more hours than just about anybody else in my entire life. And so that's a helpful thing as
1:00:57
well. I feel for you. Like the one it became clear to me about how to get better with my wife
1:01:02
was by having a daughter. Yes. Seeing the difference in how she responds. And I know you haven't seen
1:01:08
this. But he doesn't want to. It's totally worth it. It's worth it. But my wife would tell me,
1:01:13
like you're yelling, I'm like, no, I'm not super passionate. No, I'm talking with passion. I'm like,
1:01:19
I'm just super passionate. I'm like, I'm not mad. I'm just really passionate about it. And so I,
1:01:23
it's like, I, well, that's funny. Thank you for making me feel normal, Matt. I think a lot of guys
1:01:28
listening to this, this is probably resonating. Oh, it's certainly resonating. But I'll even say
1:01:32
for me as well, like, since I've had a couple of vocal cord surgeries, I don't have this problem
1:01:36
as much because like, I can't yell, like the ability to yell is not there anymore. But I still
1:01:41
have the ability to talk with such intensity that people are like, Oh my God, what's happening?
1:01:45
Like, are we all about to die? Like, is he going to pull out of, you know, the jawbone of a donkey
1:01:49
insert killing people? Like, that you kind of have that as well. Yeah, well, what, Zach, what?
1:01:54
You always get that smirk on your face when I'm talking. What's what did I say? Keep going.
1:01:58
That's fine. All right. We're going to close out with one question. Now, the reason why I want to
1:02:01
ask this question is because this is the one that has made the unflappable, Joby Martin uncomfortable.
1:02:07
And it made it uncomfortable for weeks. He even told me when I saw him, when I, when we met him in
1:02:12
Jacksonville, he's like, I've been thinking about that question. So first thing he said,
1:02:15
when I walked in his office, I've been thinking about that question. He asked me over and over.
1:02:18
And so here's the question. It's very, very important how it's framed as well. Okay, frame it up.
1:02:22
So if you were transported back in time and you're in Hitler's nursery, he's a day old,
1:02:28
newborn baby, and you only get this one opportunity to be back there. So you can't share the gospel
1:02:34
with him. You can't reason with him. The only thing that you can do is kill him or let him live.
1:02:39
And if you don't kill him, everything in history is the exact same. And if you do kill him,
1:02:45
everything in history is completely different. Do you have a moral obligation to kill baby Hitler?
1:02:51
Oh, complex ethics. That's amazing.
1:02:54
Like the cowardice question he gives me.
1:02:57
They're doozies. They're doozies. Let's let him sit in this awkwardness for a little bit.
1:03:03
One, I don't feel, I don't feel awkward. I'm trying to
1:03:09
do the gymnastics in my head. My gut tells me I killed a little guy, but then my pro-life
1:03:16
stance says no, but then my pro-life stance goes. But that's a lot. I mean, that's millions of other
1:03:23
babies that it's complex ethics. So what's your answer? I think I'd kill him.
1:03:28
Okay. Well, because I think he landed, I'm pretty sure he landed on that he wouldn't kill
1:03:32
baby Hitler. And I talked about the same way to where it's like, okay, well, now Hitler's in your
1:03:37
house. He's going to kill your family. What are you going to do? It's like, oh, I'm going to kill him.
1:03:39
Okay. So yeah, let's do them. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Why not kill the baby?
1:03:43
It's a complex ethics. So you don't know this scenario is important, because everyone's like,
1:03:48
no, I would wait. And I would preach to him. It's like, he's one day old. There is no preaching.
1:03:53
You don't get to live life with baby Hitler and try to point him in the wrong direction through
1:03:57
like multiverses, man. And that is just your reality that I'm bringing you into. So hop into this
1:04:02
multi-person line. It's not the same thing for him to be in your house about to kill your family.
1:04:06
There's a clear biblical mandate to execute him in that point. But that is not the scenario.
1:04:13
Stop trying to skate at you wimps. Like, just let me know what you would do and stand by it.
1:04:17
Well, I'll answer it. Well, I'm killing that baby in the Marvel universe. I'm in. I don't even
1:04:22
like that Marvel universe anymore. It's the same movie over. Is that still happening?
1:04:25
Everything's derivatives. No, whack, it's whack. So what are you going to do? I'm a Jobe.
1:04:31
I can't. I can't kill him. I mean, God is sovereign. So you have damn tens of millions of people to
1:04:35
death. Congratulations. And I'm bald too. So that's even worse. Yeah, that's okay.
1:04:39
I'm undecided. Come on. You can't have that been straddler. Well, if that's the case,
1:04:46
then I have to go with don't kill him and trust God. Because that's the clear biblical mandate in
1:04:52
my mind. We're not in that scenario because I've already established. No, wait, wait, wait, wait,
1:04:58
wait. I've already established. I've already established in this moment everything will be
1:05:04
the same. That is the thought experiment. Not, I'm just going to let go and let God
1:05:08
everything in the scenario is the same scenario. There is no God in this multi universe. That's not
1:05:12
what I said. Not at all. In the scenario, we go back in time and you get one chance to take Hitler
1:05:18
out. And if you don't take him out, tens of millions of people will die. Tens of millions,
1:05:23
Ryan. Are we killing the baby? Are we letting all those other people die horrible deaths?
1:05:27
Why do you have to hit? Why are you pro gas chamber? Huh? I'm not pro gas. That's what it sounds like.
1:05:31
What Hitler did was disgusting. And you can stop it and you can stop it. You have the power.
1:05:36
So Satan raises another Hitler in his place. Yeah, maybe you don't know that. So if I just
1:05:41
be angry and do not send, I wouldn't be angry. I would just kill him with a happy heart.
1:05:46
Stupid Hitler, baby. You probably already have the mustache. Why don't we keep you set us back in
1:05:50
time to kill his mom or dad? Why does that have to be a baby? Well, because he's already live in
1:05:54
my scenario and I've made the scenario because it's my question. So if you want to start your own
1:05:58
podcast, get 600 episodes under your belt and then ask your own damn questions, feel free and go
1:06:01
for it. I can't do it. You do Kyle. Okay. Well, you know, you can always work your way. Guys,
1:06:05
anything else before we wrap up this was fun. It felt it feels like I'm at a like a sleepover
1:06:11
at a friend's house in middle school. We will have a pillow fight after this. I guarantee that. But
1:06:15
guys, we're going to have to leave that there. But come back here next week where we're going to be
1:06:18
digging into, as Matt Chandler said, one of the greatest sermons of all time as recorded in the
1:06:22
Bible. And that's a Stevens sermon there in acts seven. So come and make sure that you've read
1:06:27
all the way through that. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
1:06:30
Add adult to life remission is equipping them into pushback darkness with content that forges
1:06:34
spiritual mental and physical resilience. As I talk about every week, we are set up with Logos,
1:06:38
the greatest Bible software in existence. Guys, if you want to take your Bible study to the next
1:06:41
level, I think everybody at this table has Logos software downloaded. We have a link here where you
1:06:46
can get that at an extreme discount. So you can check that out. And also we have partnered with
1:06:49
Crossway to create a forging table starter set. It is five books that you can get for half off
1:06:54
for this entire set. It'll set you up if you want to do something similar to this in your place.
1:06:59
And then also we are a donation based ministry. So if you're wondering how we're able to keep the
1:07:03
lights on and keep this content going out to people around the globe, it's because we have guys just
1:07:06
like you giving 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month to help us do exactly what we
1:07:11
were put here to do. And that's equipment to push back darkness. Please consider hopping on board
1:07:14
and being a donor. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this,
1:07:17
please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five star review. If you want me to come speak live
1:07:22
at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info@undonton.life. That's i-n-f-o @undonton.life.
1:07:28
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,
1:07:32
including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undonton.life.
1:07:37
And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our
1:07:40
content. The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut
1:07:45
album on Face Down Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:07:50
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience,
1:07:56
keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:08:20
you