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This is on Daunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:54
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
0:57
Welcome back to the forging table, the mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push
1:00
back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:04
At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:07
by digging into God's word.
1:08
We're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.
1:10
That's Terry.
1:11
That's Winkler.
1:12
That's Matt Grassmeyer.
1:13
We went all out of order.
1:14
And I said your last name and first name.
1:15
But the reason is because you just came up in discussion a second ago, because we were
1:19
just having a casual discussion, all right, let's get into acts four.
1:22
And Terry just makes this casual comment, well, hey, none of us at this table have been
1:26
to jail.
1:27
You're a hunchraer.
1:28
I happen to know that the one Matthew Grassmeyer has spent the weekend in jail before, and
1:33
it's actually a pretty decent story of how you got there.
1:35
So how did you become a felon?
1:38
One, I'm not a felon, not an apology from the state details details.
1:44
My wife would say, hurry up.
1:46
This story takes too long.
1:47
No, no, we need a few hundred times now.
1:51
I'll try to give a succinct, a short version.
1:54
So back in 2004, shortly after we met, I was driving back from a wedding in Tulsa.
2:02
And I was unaware that I had a warrant out for my arrest.
2:06
So earlier that year, I had been pulled over for speeding.
2:10
And the guy was like, well, okay, I'll let you off the hook this time.
2:14
But oh, also looks like your insurance expired yesterday.
2:18
I'm going to write you a ticket for that.
2:21
So he gave me some instructions, I call this number, and this lady just says, okay, just
2:26
give me your policy number and I'll take care of it.
2:29
So I was like, oh, this is great.
2:30
Okay.
2:31
I just forgot.
2:32
Like I had insurance.
2:33
I just didn't have like the current one on me.
2:34
So I gave her my policy number, didn't think anything of it.
2:38
And June, I got a letter saying, hey, you, you know, didn't pay this ticket.
2:44
You didn't appear in court.
2:45
We need you to do this.
2:46
I call this number.
2:47
And this guy is like, I don't know what that lady was talking about.
2:51
She was wrong.
2:52
This is what I need you to do.
2:53
So I had to send in like documented proof that I had insurance.
2:55
I had to pay these fines and then I said, okay, do all this stuff and then, you know, send
3:02
us.
3:03
If you want, some people like to do this, send us a self-assressed envelope and we'll send
3:06
you back a receipt.
3:07
Now this comes up important in the story because this is actually what kind of got me off.
3:12
So October 2004, I'm 20 years old, driving back to Edmond, going through Luther, I get
3:18
off the turnpike on 66, 66 turns back in a second street as you're going into Edmond
3:23
going back to school.
3:25
It's Saturday night and I'm driving like 35 to 66 is just a speed trap.
3:30
I mean, every, you like, you can't go through any town with it without some cop looking
3:33
for you.
3:34
So I'm driving through Luther pretty slow.
3:35
It's dark.
3:36
I see this cop car up ahead of me, like a half mile lights are on.
3:41
And so I slow down even more than I'm already slowed down.
3:44
And I pass him and as I pass and he pulls off the side of the road.
3:47
So I just, you do the normal thing.
3:49
I'm like, okay, well, this guy's going to do his thing.
3:51
So I pull over thinking, all right, he's going to zoom past me.
3:55
He doesn't even get off the side of the road all the way.
3:57
He pulls up right behind me and I'm like, I'm just kind of confused.
4:00
What is happening?
4:01
He walks up to my window, I roll it down and he goes, you know, fast, you're going and
4:05
I was like 35, maybe he goes clocky going 75 and I was like, no way.
4:11
And his response was an indication of how the rest of this whole interaction was going
4:18
to go.
4:19
He goes, are you calling me a liar?
4:21
And I was like, I didn't know what to say.
4:24
So I give him my license.
4:25
I give him a registration.
4:26
He goes back to his car.
4:27
He's not there five minutes.
4:29
His door flies open, gun is drawn.
4:32
He's pointing it at my car, Mr. Graspire, put your hands out of the vehicle.
4:36
So I go, I put my hands out, I was so scared, so scared.
4:42
I come to the back of the car.
4:44
He asked me several times if I have drugs or weapons on me, I'm like, no.
4:48
And I mean, I'm just so shocked and I don't know what to say and he like, just, are you
4:52
sure?
4:53
Are you sure?
4:54
Are you sure?
4:55
I'm like, no, I don't.
4:56
And he goes, are you copying that?
4:57
I mean, this guy was just a real jerk.
4:58
So finally, I get handcuffs.
4:59
I got my hands are cuffed behind my back.
5:00
I sit in the back of the police car.
5:03
My car gets towed, two Jones, there's so much corruption going on over there and Luther
5:07
and Jones back then with all the cops and everything, Jones Sheriff owned the tow place.
5:15
So there was some, you know, there was some stuff going on there.
5:18
I sit in the back of the cop car, we're driving and he goes on there for get this and never
5:25
ceases to amaze me.
5:26
People with suspended licenses think they can fly.
5:29
I'm just thinking, like, what are you talking about?
5:33
And he goes, yeah, it's going to be a few grand to get you out of jail.
5:37
You think you can take care of that?
5:39
Do you have that kind of money?
5:40
I was like, well, not on me.
5:42
Like what is like, what is happening?
5:44
This is, this is, this is so weird.
5:46
So he goes, we go down to downtown Lutheran.
5:49
I'm still in the back of the car, hands cuffed behind my back.
5:52
He goes in, he goes, I got to take care of some paperwork.
5:54
So he's in the, this building for about an hour.
5:57
He comes out, he's wiping his face off, look at his lips, he's clearly just been eating.
6:01
So I'm like, what, what the heck?
6:03
This guy is clearly just like prolonging this thing just to, just stick it to me.
6:09
Come in, we go down and I'm thinking I'm going to spend the night in like a, a Luther jail
6:13
cell and then I'll be, you know, I'll be good to go.
6:14
I'd still have, I'm like, I've not made the connection in my head because I'd put that
6:18
all out of my head and he turns around, we get on 66, we go to 35, he goes, you know what,
6:25
I think I'm going to be nice to you, we'll, we'll put the, we'll put the lights on, get
6:28
you there quicker.
6:29
Thanks.
6:30
Thanks a lot.
6:32
So we get to, we get to Oklahoma County jail cell and, uh, you know, go in and I'm, you
6:38
know, they're asking me, are you allergic to anything?
6:39
And like, what, why does that matter?
6:40
Well, if we have to sedate you, we need to know, so like this is just a full on punch
6:45
in the face.
6:46
I have no idea what any of this stuff is, but like they're, they're trying to, you know,
6:50
make sure that if I do something crazy and they have to sedate me, that like they need
6:54
to know what they can give me, that won't kill me.
6:57
So I'm just terrified, uh, get strip search, do the whole thing mugshot.
7:02
Um, interesting fact, I was in Oklahoma County jail, uh, an exact week before McCully Colcan
7:07
was in Oklahoma County jail on a drug charge.
7:09
So that's kind of fun.
7:10
Yeah.
7:11
That's nice.
7:12
Yeah.
7:13
Uh, so I spend a, spend a night in jail, um, and at this point that story Caitlin would
7:17
be like, oh my God, please hurry up, um, so you stand in this hallway and you're cuffed
7:22
to this, like, this, uh, bar on the wall and you're sitting there, um, saw some stuff
7:28
a 20 year old shouldn't see this guy vomited all over the floor because he's drunk.
7:31
And the, the, the, the CO is just like laughing at him and he brings it up clean on my floor.
7:36
And I'm like, this is nuts.
7:37
I can't believe I'm here.
7:39
So they take you into your pod in Oklahoma County jail, you have pods is just big rooms
7:42
and then their cells are on the outside.
7:43
I walk into my cells and sell a C pod cell 14.
7:46
I'll never forget that.
7:47
This is 20 years ago, mind you, I'll never forget this.
7:50
I walk in the, the room is pitch black, light shines into the room, bunk beds, bottom bunk
7:56
is open, top bunk.
7:58
This bald, the shaved head tattooed guy peeks, uh, like he lifts his head up and just grins
8:04
at me as I'm walking.
8:06
So I'm like, Oh, it says my name is Joby.
8:08
So I'm just, so I'm even more terrified.
8:12
So I, I slept for maybe 10 minutes at a time.
8:15
Just I slept in the fetal position, just like waiting, like for some sound to get up
8:18
and like try to defend myself.
8:20
What am I going to do?
8:21
I'm 20.
8:22
I don't know ends up.
8:23
The guys, the super nice guys names PJ Hawkins super, super nice.
8:25
He was in jail all the time.
8:26
Um, you know, sounds like a nice guy, uh, you know, the again, Caitlin would be like,
8:32
I'll speed up speed up the, the, this is just a glimpse into how Matt graphs my operates.
8:36
I'm a smart, Alec.
8:37
If for those of you who don't know, I'm like, I'm pretty smart, Alec.
8:40
So we're, you know, you get to the, the normal, what are you in for?
8:43
And I'm telling them, you know, traffic violation, I guess.
8:46
And he starts to tell his story.
8:48
He's like, this is the first time I, I'm in jail, not strung out on drugs.
8:51
Obviously, I, you know, I've never done drugs, um, my entire life still to this day, but in
8:56
the moment I just go, Oh yeah, me too.
8:59
And so from that, from that moment on, this guy is trying to get me hooked up with the
9:04
premier crack dealer in downtown Oklahoma, Oklahoma city.
9:09
Her name was Sheila.
9:10
He even wrote her number on my, like little card, you got to talk to Sheila.
9:15
She's the best.
9:16
She's going to hook you up man.
9:17
So I'm, I just got to, yeah, I'm like, I'm so scared.
9:20
I'm like, well, if I tell him, no, he's going to beat me up.
9:22
So anyway, I go through this whole rigmarole, you got to, you got to make a collect call.
9:26
I call my mom.
9:27
She thinks it's a prank call, like the, the voice recorder doesn't pick up my name and
9:31
it's like, you have a, a call from, and then it's just dead air because it doesn't pick
9:35
up my name, uh, an inmate in Oklahoma County jail and she's like, I don't know anybody
9:40
in Oklahoma County jail hangs up the phone.
9:42
My dad's out of town, like, so I'm like freaking out.
9:45
I got to go back in the line.
9:46
I get back up there and my brother, and you know, Greg, you've actually met Greg four
9:50
years younger than me.
9:52
He's still in him.
9:53
He's 16 years old.
9:54
He's in high school.
9:55
He picks up the phone.
9:56
I'm like telling him he's like laughing Gregory.
10:01
That's how important this is.
10:02
Like I'm, I'm Gregory.
10:03
I, I, like I need you right now.
10:05
I need you to tell mom what is happening and I need you to be ready.
10:10
She needs to get on the phone right now.
10:12
And so like he goes and gets her and I kind of explained to her and she just starts balling.
10:17
She like, she thinks that I've killed somebody.
10:18
Like it is just the worst thing that could happen.
10:21
Finally, I tell her what she needs to do.
10:23
She calls, um, these people, this is Sunday, my yum.
10:27
So she calls all these people.
10:28
My dad's on his way back from seeing my sister at her college in Missouri.
10:33
And so she called, I call her back like 30 minutes later.
10:35
Like, what do you, what do you got for me?
10:36
She's like, well, I got good news and I got bad news.
10:38
Good news is we can come get you out bad news is it won't be till tomorrow.
10:41
And I'm thinking, I'm not thinking, okay, it's Sunday, everything's closed.
10:44
I'm just thinking, okay, you're going to come get me now.
10:46
I'm going to get out now.
10:47
And so they can't come until tomorrow, until Monday.
10:51
And so I just have to wait another night with PJ, um, who is, he's a heck of a guy.
10:56
Like I just didn't know that, um, so Monday morning rolls around and I feel like everything
11:01
just takes so long in the prison system.
11:04
Um, probably not saying anything that most people don't know.
11:07
My parents got there at eight o'clock.
11:09
They didn't come get me until three.
11:12
So like they, I mean, everything is just slow play.
11:14
So I finally get out.
11:15
My dad just laughing.
11:16
He thinks it's hysterical.
11:17
My mom is crying.
11:18
This is great.
11:20
This is a great story.
11:21
You're going to, this is going to be a great story for the rest of your life.
11:23
And it is like, here we are.
11:25
I'm telling the story.
11:25
Um, anyway, fast forward to my court day.
11:28
I got to go back to Luther.
11:30
I'm in the, the community center.
11:32
So it's Tuesday.
11:33
It's also bingo night for the seniors.
11:36
And they're mad because there, there's an overflow of people who are coming to, to
11:40
have their court date.
11:41
And so they've actually got to move the senior center.
11:44
So they're, I mean, they're [inaudible] that we're there to do court.
11:46
Cause we're taking over their bingo night.
11:48
I get in.
11:49
This judge comes in.
11:50
He's pulling on his robe.
11:51
I'm thinking I'm about to get railroaded.
11:53
This is terrible.
11:54
Small town USA.
11:55
I'm just going to get like this is going to just the end of my life.
11:57
And he's like looking at all these tickets.
12:00
I had like seven tickets, um, written by this cop who pulled me over in Luther.
12:05
And he's like, starts chuckling to himself.
12:07
And this is when I was like, it's, this is getting real.
12:08
Okay.
12:09
This guy's laughing.
12:09
Like he's about to just throw the book at me.
12:11
And he goes, son, do you pay your taxes?
12:16
I was like, yeah, my dad's a CPA.
12:18
And so like my dad, you know, he always walks me through paying my taxes.
12:20
Yeah, I'll pay my taxes.
12:21
He goes, okay.
12:22
Well, uh, he wrote a ticket for tax evasion.
12:26
I've just never seen that before.
12:27
And I was like, Oh, that's weird.
12:29
And he's like, I honestly have no idea what any of these things are.
12:33
So we're just going to, well, let me ask you something.
12:36
Can you say clean for the next six months?
12:38
And I was like, I'll do my best.
12:40
Yes.
12:41
And my lawyer was like, yes, sir.
12:43
I'm like, yes, sir.
12:44
I can say clean.
12:44
So he goes, all right.
12:45
Well, I'm just going to get rid of all these, like, and then again, my, my stealth,
12:50
my self-addressed envelope came into play.
12:52
Like clearly you tried to take care of this.
12:53
Like this is like a misunderstanding.
12:55
Somebody lost something.
12:56
So here you go.
12:57
We're going to take all these away.
12:58
The only thing I'm going to give you is a speeding ticket.
13:00
And I'm like, well, I wasn't speeding.
13:01
And he was like, well, really, it's just, it's just your, your word against his.
13:04
We're just going to, you know, go with that.
13:06
You got to, you got to pay this fine.
13:07
You've already paid it.
13:08
So we're just going to give you back your, your bond money that you paid minus the,
13:12
the ticket for speeding.
13:13
And if you can place, stay clean for six months, like that'll go off your record.
13:17
And so like obviously best case scenario, but then I got an apology letter from the state.
13:23
Hey, we messed up.
13:24
Like we destroyed your life for two days.
13:27
My dad always, he, when I tell this story, he'd always say, so we now know that it's two days quicker
13:33
to stay on the turnpike than it is to get off at Route 66.
13:37
So that's the moral of that story.
13:40
Stay on the turnpike if you can stay on the turnpike.
13:42
Now two, two things here.
13:44
Number one, I would like to sell stay on the turnpike shirts or the undaunted life shot,
13:49
but only if we can get your mug shot.
13:51
So do we have like a copy of your mug shot or I have actually looked.
13:54
I, you, I've never been able to find it, but I mean, I looked like 15 years ago.
13:59
So I don't know.
14:00
All right.
14:00
So see if you can do that.
14:01
And then, you know, if you guys are, be a little bit of lag time, but we'll get those up in the store.
14:04
And then which prison tattoo did you get?
14:07
Like which one, which one did you get from PJ?
14:10
I stayed in my room the entire time.
14:13
Like in the, in Oklahoma County jail, you, they're in your cell.
14:15
There is a sink that also is a toilet.
14:19
So same water supply.
14:20
It's efficiency.
14:21
Yeah, efficiency, right.
14:22
So then the, the shot, like I didn't take a shower the entire time I was there.
14:25
It's like, it's like they want something to happen to you there.
14:27
There's like the, the shower is in a corner and it's dark.
14:30
And I was like, there's no way I'm going to be.
14:32
So I've seen way too many shows, like I'm not going to take a shower.
14:35
So you didn't do, you didn't have your prison mic moment.
14:37
You didn't have any of that.
14:38
Like no purple bandana.
14:40
Once people got wind that I was getting out on Sunday evening, I became like a celebrity.
14:46
And so people were like, Hey man, if you get me, if you, if you can go talk to this
14:50
person, having it, so I'm just like, I don't know what to do.
14:53
I'm just saying, yes, yeah, sure, sure.
14:54
I'll go talk to these people.
14:55
Like give me, give me all this.
14:56
So I'm getting all these numbers and like people's information, like call this person,
15:01
have them come get me.
15:02
And like, like that was my, I guess that was my prison mic moment.
15:05
I became a celebrity as soon as people knew I was getting out.
15:07
Obviously I didn't, I did not fulfill any of those promises.
15:13
Hey, but some people will never get their 15 minutes of fame and you certainly did.
15:17
I got out.
15:18
You said I did get fired because when I got out of his three o'clock, I was, I was working
15:23
at St. Elizabeth Catholic school and it was like four o'clock by the time I got to my car.
15:27
And so I had like, I mean, I had a hundred missed calls, 40 messages.
15:30
I missed an intramural football game.
15:31
That was terrible.
15:32
Yeah, that's probably the worst thing that happened.
15:33
So I call my boss, I'm like, Hey, Michelle, sorry, I just got out of jail.
15:38
She goes, Matthew, I have heard a lot of things.
15:40
I've heard a lot of excuses.
15:43
This I just never saw, I just never thought you would, you would try to use this type of excuse.
15:48
Today can today is going to be actually, you know what, today isn't even going to be,
15:52
don't even bother coming in.
15:53
Like don't show up to work tomorrow.
15:54
You're, you're, you're done.
15:55
Like, so I mean, I did get my job back like two days later.
15:58
My best friend, Austin, his wife, who they weren't married at the time.
16:02
But I was working with her, Kristen, she was like, she kind of verified for me.
16:05
And so I got my job back.
16:06
But yeah, it was a wild, wild time.
16:07
Well, here's the thing, Terry, I did not want you to operate for the rest of your life,
16:11
thinking that we were all good menches around this table.
16:14
I wanted to disabuse you of the notion that you weren't, you know, around some really rough dudes.
16:18
So Pat spent some time in the Pokey one to make sure that you were fully aware of that.
16:22
So prison Matt.
16:23
I was going to say prison, prison Matt t-shirts must be a thing.
16:26
And if we can Photoshop the purple bandana on the mugshot, that would be fantastic.
16:29
But we have to have the mugshot.
16:30
You dedicate to at least finding it.
16:32
Write yourself a note, tell Siri.
16:34
Oh, look, I know, I, I, I found McCully Colkin's mugshot from the week, from the weekend.
16:38
Yeah, but that one was on like, you know, the New York Post, something like that.
16:41
And so I actually find this especially funny because Stacy, my wife, she was fully convinced
16:47
that Matt Grasmire was a cop when she first saw him because he just looks like a cop.
16:52
Yeah.
16:53
I'm very, you got, you got that smug mustache to look on your face like I totally get the
16:58
Calvinism.
16:59
Well, sorry for those of you that aren't into like prison stories, but hey, I just wanted
17:04
to kind of bring that out there to you.
17:05
It's our first prison story here on on the on the life of man's podcast, you know, it's
17:09
whatever.
17:10
It's just semantics.
17:11
Who cares?
17:12
But Terry, if you wouldn't mind, we're going to go ahead and get in the description.
17:15
You get a prison.
17:16
Yeah.
17:17
Speak.
17:18
Well, you know, it is what it is, but we're going to be digging into acts for, believe
17:20
it or not.
17:21
And we're going to be doing versus one through 12 here to stop.
17:23
So Terry hit those for us, please.
17:26
And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and
17:30
the Sadducees came upon them.
17:32
They were greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus
17:36
the resurrection from the dead and they arrested them and put them in custody until the next
17:41
day for it was already evening.
17:44
But many of those who had heard the word believed and the number of the men came to about 5,000.
17:50
On the next day, their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem with
17:55
Anas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander and all who were of the high
17:59
priestly family.
18:01
And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired by what power or by what name did
18:05
you do this?
18:08
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders,
18:13
if we are being examined here today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what
18:18
means this man has been healed, let it be known to all of you and to all the people
18:22
of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth whom you crucified, whom God raised
18:28
from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well."
18:33
This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the
18:38
cornerstone and there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven
18:44
given among men by which we must be saved.
18:47
I really love this section of Scripture and mainly in the John MacArthur commentary, there
18:52
is one of the best one lines that I've maybe ever seen in a commentary.
18:57
It's talking about verses 8 through 12, it said, "Peter put the Sanhedrin on trial."
19:01
I absolutely love that, because that's exactly what's happening here.
19:04
There's so many things we can focus on here, but the first salvo I'll throw out for us
19:08
is verse 7, "And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired by what power or
19:13
by what name did you do this?"
19:16
And Peter immediately responds to verse 8 by talking about the Holy Spirit, "I'm curious
19:20
for you guys of any times where you felt like it wasn't you communicating, but it was the
19:25
Holy Spirit."
19:26
And don't force an example or something like that if you don't have one, because I'll
19:31
say perhaps for the first time that I really understood that it probably wasn't just me
19:36
talking, that it was the Holy Spirit speaking through me, was when I spoke at Lewisburg
19:39
Prison in Pennsylvania.
19:41
And it got to, after I did my presentation, I'm talking about was Jesus a manly man, that's
19:48
the name of the presentation, it's one of my favorite presentations to give.
19:51
And we get to the altar call, I guess you can say it, and that day about three dozen
19:57
men raise their hand and made a movement towards Christ, and it was just an incredible thing.
20:03
And I just remember praying for these men and saying, "Look, there's nothing magical
20:06
about a prayer, there's nothing in this prayer that's going to save you, but let's all come
20:09
together."
20:10
And it was weird because I'm wearing a stab vest, they're like, "Look, you got to stand
20:15
right here.
20:16
You can't really travel there.
20:17
You can't really do whatever."
20:18
And by the end of my presentation, I was like, "I don't care about any of that."
20:20
And so all the guys that stood up, I'm like, "Everyone of y'all come down here and gather
20:24
around me, and then everybody else get up and gather around them, and we're going to
20:27
lay hands on each other and pray."
20:29
And the guards in the back are like, "What?
20:32
Is he doing?
20:33
Like, why?
20:34
Like, don't?
20:35
No, no, no.
20:36
You're not allowed to do that."
20:37
I was like, "Ah, who cares?"
20:38
And so they all come up.
20:39
And I just remember praying and being done with the prayer and being like, "I don't remember
20:41
thinking any of the things that I just said."
20:43
And it was like immediate recognition.
20:45
It wasn't later when I got back to the hotel, but it was like immediate recognition that
20:49
was basically not me praying.
20:50
It wasn't like I like, eyes rolled back in my head, and you know, it was like automatic
20:54
talking, you know, from angels or something like that.
20:57
But that wasn't one of the first times I recognized like, "Look, that wasn't me just
21:00
then.
21:01
Like, that wasn't me operating at my best.
21:03
That was me just getting out of the way and letting Holy Spirit talk."
21:05
So I don't know if any of y'all have a moment.
21:07
It doesn't have to be in, you know, like a grandiose.
21:08
So it was after a speech thing, but it could even be in a, you know, single situation with
21:12
one person.
21:13
I mean, you took a big deep breath.
21:16
No, I'm just thankful that you were able to speak to a bunch of mats out in the prison
21:21
there.
21:22
That's right.
21:23
A bunch of prison mats.
21:24
Yeah.
21:25
Well, I think having been there, you probably have a keen appreciation.
21:28
That's right.
21:29
That's right.
21:30
For that.
21:31
Oh, yeah.
21:32
No, in all seriousness, I feel that way, this sounds bad.
21:35
I don't mean it to sound the way it's going to, but I feel that way a lot.
21:39
And only because I do get the opportunity to speak, you know, just my particular calling
21:44
at the moment is having that is teaching a lot.
21:47
And I do think that you prepare yourself really well.
21:51
You need to be immersed in the word and I don't mean prepared like I've got a speech
21:56
I'm going to give and I've worked hard on the speech.
21:58
For me, it's more just immersion immersed in the word.
22:02
And then you go out and as Doug Wilson says, the best teaching is teaching something you
22:07
love to people you love.
22:09
And at that point, I often have the feeling of not a supernatural feeling, you know, not
22:15
a, like you said, Kyle's not like, Oh, somebody put those words in my mouth, but very much
22:19
unscripted things that are being said that are impactful and you're like, I didn't plan
22:25
that.
22:26
You know, so there's a, maybe a lower key sense of clearly spirit.
22:30
You do something with this because I hadn't planned to say half the things that we said.
22:34
When I think, so you bring up something that I think is important is a lot of people think,
22:39
you know what?
22:40
I'm just going to go up there and wing it and I'm just going to let the Holy Spirit talk.
22:42
So specifically I did a speech here recently and it was supposed to be a preacher was going
22:48
to say something for 15 minutes, then there was going to be somebody who was responding
22:53
like with their, their testimony, short testimony, like 10 minute testimony.
22:56
And then I was going to talk for like an hour and this is the end of a conference.
22:59
So these guys have been here all week, you know, this is a long time to be sitting down
23:03
and in the middle there somewhere was going to be worship.
23:05
And this pastor was supposed to go 15 minutes and he went 45.
23:11
And they went right in and did the normal full worship set.
23:14
And then the guy who was giving his testimony was so nervous the entire time because he
23:18
knew how late we were.
23:20
And so he's trying to rush through his story and all that.
23:22
And then it gets to me.
23:23
And by the time he gets to me, I'm, I'm pacing around like like a lion, like a cage line.
23:28
I'm like, no, do not do an introduction.
23:31
Do not do an introduction song.
23:32
Just bring me up there.
23:33
It's time to go.
23:34
It's time to get through the hours worth of stuff I need to get through.
23:36
And we are way, way behind.
23:37
And it's one of those moments where you could tell that the pastor had not prepared, right?
23:40
He had not prepared.
23:41
He was just going to operate in the spirit.
23:43
And then, you know, again, maybe to you, it doesn't seem that rude, but whenever you
23:46
go 200% over your time allotted, like that becomes problematic for everybody else.
23:51
I think it's inconsiderate.
23:52
Right.
23:53
It's certainly inconsiderate.
23:54
But the overall point is, and we made this comment to you, like a lot of people think like
23:58
when I do interviews or when I do solo episodes or the forging table, they're like, gosh, you're
24:03
just so good at flowing from one thing to the next and all of you guys just work really
24:06
well together.
24:07
And it's like, do you understand how much prep time it takes to seem like you didn't
24:11
prepare at all?
24:13
Like because it's a very substantial thing.
24:15
And so when you're going to give a speech, that doesn't mean that you're crowding out
24:18
the Holy Spirit whenever you're preparing to an extreme degree because I can go off on
24:24
a tangent because I know I have an idea of where I'm going.
24:26
But if I just walk up there like, I got 45 minutes, let's just see how this goes.
24:30
Like there's a lot better chance of it being a train wreck than it being an opportunity
24:34
for the Holy Spirit to make you not seem foolish.
24:36
100%.
24:37
Yeah, that's so true.
24:38
I'm reminded of a statement by Churchill and you'll appreciate this.
24:43
You guys probably say, yep, he's right.
24:45
He said, if you need me to speak for an hour, just give me five minutes to prepare.
24:48
But if you need me to speak for five minutes, I'll need an hour to prepare.
24:52
Right.
24:53
And there's a lot of truth in that.
24:54
Yeah.
24:55
I think the reverse of that can be true too.
24:56
Like I had the opportunity to speak at our men's fishing trip earlier this year and I
25:00
got so bogged down and so nervous about preparing that I did like write a speech.
25:05
And I mean, I guess now looking back, I can say, okay, well, the Holy Spirit was working
25:12
through this the whole time like at one point in the speech, like I couldn't see my notes.
25:18
And so I'm like panicking.
25:19
Like, oh crap, I wrote this whole thing out.
25:22
And I think at up to that point, I felt like it was kind of forced.
25:25
And I'm like trying to, I know that I want to make these points, but then like the last
25:28
bit of my speech, I just was like, okay, I can't look at these things anymore.
25:32
I'm just going to talk.
25:33
And I feel like that point of this of my talk was just was I felt like it went better because
25:38
I wasn't so worried about what I had written down, all these points I have to make.
25:43
It was just, okay, I know what I want to talk about.
25:45
I've prepared like I'm just going to, I'm just going to let go of my like control and
25:53
just let that, let that come out and say what I need to say and the Holy Spirit is going
25:56
to guide me to do that.
25:58
So.
25:59
And that's a time when it's like, okay, I'm going to let the Holy Spirit save me if saving
26:02
is required, but I'm not going to go up there unprepared to hope that the Holy Spirit will
26:06
kind of like, you know, bridge the gap or something like that because here you're right.
26:10
When someone's like, oh, just talk for however long you want to talk.
26:13
I was like, okay, I know how to do that.
26:14
But back in college, in the degree program I was in, we had to, I gave more presentations
26:19
than I took exams in my college thing.
26:21
And the thing was is we would have to give a presentation and it would have to be between
26:25
eight and 10 minutes.
26:26
If it was lower than eight minutes, you were docked automatically one letter grade.
26:30
If it was longer than 10 minutes, you were docked automatically one letter grade.
26:33
And so you had to be very precise and it became abundantly clear because the professor would
26:38
not stop you once you got to 10 minutes.
26:39
They would let you go and go and go.
26:42
But the problem was is you could tell so easily who had prepared and who had not because it
26:46
became abundantly clear immediately.
26:48
This person has ran through this before, they have an idea of their cadence and their
26:51
timing.
26:52
And we couldn't have a timer with this either.
26:53
So we couldn't like have it up there to kind of know where we were.
26:56
I mean, I guess you could look down at your watch or something like that.
26:59
But it's like, okay, you need to be prepared.
27:01
You need to look prepared.
27:03
But in a situation like this, like in a, in a gospel centered situation or a sermon or
27:07
something like that, it's okay to kind of go off on a tangent, but you need to have an
27:11
idea of where you're going.
27:13
And I don't really think that most people really understand that because imagine if, imagine
27:17
if Peter in this moment had just began like just meandering, right, don't you think there
27:21
was some level of preparation to his first sermon or to his second sermon or to his presentation
27:25
before this council?
27:26
Don't you think he had an idea before he went up to these people?
27:29
Here's an idea of kind of where I think I would want to go.
27:32
This idea that there was no level of preparation, I think would be silly here.
27:36
Anything else on that first chunk, those first dozen verses or so?
27:39
Well, I think that goes kind of into life in general, like I think back to Nehemiah, like
27:43
there was a lot of prep that he had to do.
27:44
I mean, he was guided by the spirit and he was called to do a thing, but that did not
27:50
relieve him of the responsibility of the prep work required to rebuild the wall.
27:55
There was still some sort of action that he had to take and a lot of it was prep work.
28:00
Absolutely.
28:01
Let's hit this next section here.
28:02
Well, actually before that, I do want to remind all of you guys that we have some partnerships
28:05
with Logos and Crossway.
28:07
Let's talk about Crossway first.
28:08
I get messages all the time, "Hey, calm, start my own forging table.
28:11
What should I do?
28:12
What kind of material should I have?"
28:13
Well, I partnered with Crossway to come up with five books that would be great for you
28:16
guys.
28:17
There's a study Bible in there, there's a journal, there's different expository writings and
28:22
things like that.
28:23
It is a fantastic set of five books and you can get that entire set for 50% off if you
28:27
use the links and follow the instructions that are in the show notes for this episode.
28:32
Also, if you want to take your Bible study to that next level, if you want to go even
28:35
deeper with what you're doing in the Bible study that you do on a regular basis, it's
28:39
a Logos Bible software.
28:41
Gary uses it, there's other pastors that have been on the show that use the Logos Bible
28:44
software as they're preparing their messages, but also just for generic, everyday, non-professional
28:50
Christians.
28:51
These are people that just want to take what they're doing and their study the Bible to
28:53
that next level.
28:54
You can use the Logos Bible software at a discount if you use the link that is there
28:58
in the show notes.
28:59
Jake, if you wouldn't mind doing verses 13 through 22.
29:05
When they saw the boldness of Peter and John and perceived that they were uneducated common
29:08
men, they were astonished and they recognized that they had been with Jesus, but seeing
29:13
the man who was healed standing beside them, they had nothing to say in opposition.
29:18
But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another
29:22
saying, "What shall we do with these men?"
29:26
For that a notable sign has been performed through them as evident to all the inhabitants
29:31
of Jerusalem and we cannot deny it.
29:34
But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak
29:38
no more to anyone in this name.
29:41
So they called them and charged them not to speak or to teach at all in the name of Jesus.
29:47
But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen
29:51
to you rather than to God, you must judge, for we cannot but speak of what we have seen
29:59
and heard, and when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish
30:05
them because of the people, for all were praising God for what had happened, for the man on
30:10
whom this sign of healing was performed was more than 40 years old."
30:15
So at no point do we see that the religious leaders were trying to disprove what had happened.
30:20
They had basically openly acknowledged, "Yeah, this happened, but immediately we see this
30:25
in verse 17, their focus went to how can we keep our power in this situation?"
30:31
It was not on the ESV's study Bible basically pointed out, it was more important to them
30:35
to keep their power than to glorify God in this moment.
30:39
And before you hold yourself above these religious leaders, that's something that you do all
30:42
the time.
30:43
That's something that I do all the time.
30:44
It's like, "Okay, how can I maintain my ego here as opposed to doing the thing that will
30:48
glorify God?
30:49
Why do you think we lie to people?
30:50
Why do you think we just both face lie to people's faces?
30:52
It's because we have something else that we are trying to protect that is more important
30:55
than the truth.
30:56
At least that's what we surmise at that moment."
30:58
The big thing that I want to talk about in this section of Scripture is because of what
31:01
we saw during COVID-19, because of what we saw during that time period, and because of
31:06
what we saw from squishy Christians and also non-Christians using Romans 13 to be like,
31:10
"No matter what, the government should be able to tell us what to do regardless of what
31:16
their motivation is."
31:18
That becomes deeply problematic for a lot of different reasons, but we see that even
31:22
here in this subject matter.
31:23
They basically tell these men, "Okay, okay, we get that this actually happened, but that's
31:29
enough.
31:30
This is your warning.
31:32
Don't make us really do what we think we might want to do."
31:37
It was a threat to them to not do what they need to do, and Peter just basically like,
31:41
"This is when the boldness of Peter comes out."
31:43
It's like, "For we cannot speak of what we have, for we cannot but speak of what we have
31:48
seen and heard."
31:49
So it's like, "Hey, you do what you got to do.
31:51
I'm going to do what I got to do."
31:53
I didn't see a lot of that during COVID.
31:55
Now, what I don't mean is the first several weeks of COVID where we didn't know what this
31:59
was.
32:00
We thought this could have been the Black Plague.
32:02
We thought, "Oh my gosh, what if this kills just children?"
32:05
Imagine flipping the mortality tables where it was killing children at the right that
32:10
it was killing the elderly.
32:12
We would have voluntarily shut down every economy on the planet and gone back to the
32:16
Stone Age to protect our children.
32:17
That's what we would have done, but that's not what happened with this particular thing.
32:21
We're not going to go into conspiracy theories about where it came from and how it was hidden
32:24
in the vaccine and all that.
32:25
That's not what we're talking about.
32:26
I want to go specifically to churches that were all too eager to say, "Whatever my local
32:31
magistrates tell me to do, we will shut down the gathering of the saints because of what
32:36
they tell me to do, because of what these atheists in government or these people that
32:39
are not abiding by what we see in Scripture are telling us to do."
32:42
I know there's a lot of churches that are looking back in hindsight and thinking to themselves,
32:47
"Gosh, I really wish we would never shut down.
32:49
I really wish we had steeled our nerves just like John MacArthur did and said, "No, we're
32:53
not going to do that."
32:55
Hey, if you want to fool around and find out, go ahead and sue us, but our doors will be
32:59
open.
33:00
I just want to open up that discussion, but maybe specifically to Terry, I don't know
33:03
what crossings did.
33:04
I'm not aware with what y'all did during that situation.
33:05
I'm only aware with what the churches I was going to did, but as you look back on four
33:09
years ago now and look back at that situation in light of what we see here in Acts 4 but
33:14
also Romans 13, how do you feel about how we as the Western Church responded?
33:21
From my perspective, I feel like it was very revealing as to where our priorities lie,
33:28
and so I know it's easy to critique the church, but this is a case where the church deserves
33:32
some critique, and that is we were far too people pleasing in that regard.
33:38
I agree with you, crossing shut down briefly at first, figure out what's going on here,
33:43
and open back up with some spacing between people, a service that was mask-only so that
33:51
people that felt strongly about that could be sure there were people with masks in there,
33:56
but the idea was the priority quickly became, "We're going to meet together.
34:00
We'll make some compromises for what people thought was their safety at the time, but
34:06
we're not going to stop meeting."
34:07
But I don't think it was the church's finest moment, and I think it revealed that there's
34:10
a lot of what the Bible would call people pleasing, and am I here to please God or please
34:16
men?
34:17
Well, turns out to a large extent, please men, here's the insidious part of it is I understand,
34:23
and I know there's some sincerity here, so I hope I'm not sounding too harsh about this.
34:28
Some people would say, "Yes, we were trying to please those people, and we were trying
34:33
to do what they felt like was right so that we could reach them," and I do think that's
34:40
insidious.
34:41
I don't mean that those people weren't sincere, and they don't have good hearts about it,
34:45
but I think it to be, that's a very slippery slope to be on.
34:50
Yeah, it's like, how much are you willing to whistle past the graveyard, which is sin
34:55
in this particular context, to reach people?
34:58
And that's what goes back to some of our discussions with the seeker-sensitive movement.
35:01
It's like, okay, some of these seeker-sensitive movements are literally sinning because they
35:04
think it'll be more appealing to people to do certain things, and it's like, where do you
35:09
get that from scripture, that it's like, yeah, just sin a little bit so that you can reel
35:13
these people in.
35:14
It's like, is that what the Holy Spirit needs?
35:16
He needs you to act a certain way.
35:19
I mean, what about you guys as we look back on that time period?
35:21
I think there was a very distinct separation of the wheat from the chaff in that moment,
35:26
and there's a lot of people that fell away from the church, and I think you can look back
35:29
on people who were like, "Well, I don't really need to go to church and that are still not
35:33
going to church," and I think the statistics that are done by people that keep those bear
35:37
that reality out, and I think for taking the church for convenience or going to an online
35:44
church that whole year plus opened up the door for this massive online presence where
35:52
I don't have to be in the assembly, I can do church online separate from the body, and
35:59
then I think the deconstruction kind of ramped up quite a bit, and some things were called
36:06
into question, and people who were kind of, what's the right word, I guess, I don't know
36:15
what I'm looking, I don't know the word I'm looking for here, Luke Warm Christians, I
36:18
guess.
36:19
Yeah, marginal Christians kind of took a step back, I go, "Yeah, this is, I don't really
36:22
want to do this," and I don't know if that's the case, but that's just kind of one of my
36:26
observations.
36:30
The thing with authority, I don't, I can understand in the moment why it would be so
36:38
challenging, but in hindsight it doesn't seem so difficult to understand.
36:46
The thing is as Christians we are called to obedience to authority, there's no question
36:50
about that, but there's a caveat there is that if that authority is going against what
36:57
God says not to do, or what you are supposed to do, if it's going against that then you
37:03
don't obey, we see that clearly with Peter right here, you don't obey that authority,
37:07
they've lost their authority over you.
37:11
So in the, and I go back to Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Germany and him talking about, you know,
37:18
writing about, there were all these pastors that had they come together and all rejected
37:26
the messaging of Hitler.
37:28
Yeah, it's Metaxas and Letter to the American Church.
37:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:31
Had they all rejected it, that the Nazi movement would have never got off the ground.
37:36
No Holocaust, no World War II.
37:37
That's right.
37:38
None of that.
37:39
But because they didn't, because some of them were lukewarm, because some of them were
37:43
like, "Well, no, we've got to respect the authority," despite the fact that it's ungodly
37:47
what he's preaching or what he's, his messaging, despite his ungodliness, they still obeyed
37:53
it, and that's why it got off the ground the way that it did.
37:56
Well, and that's the problem with the, I want to be known for what I'm for, not what I'm
37:59
against movement for these, these ministries are like, we're going to be known for what
38:02
we're for, not what we're against.
38:04
The problem is, is that's where a lot of people fell in Germany and they ended up being on
38:07
the side of the Third Reich, not realizing that it was going to lead to the deaths of
38:11
six million Jews and tens of millions of other people that were pulled into World War II.
38:15
And I think something that's, that's also important to talk about here is a lot of individuals
38:20
think that, "Hey, as long as I'm nice, these people are just going to understand."
38:25
And one thing that Vodie Bockum talked about in his latest book, It's Not Like Being Black,
38:29
is the LGBTQ movement is next, because right now, there's not this overt attempt by the
38:38
federal government using the law to force down upon Christians their ideology about
38:42
LGBTQ forcing Catholic churches to, you know, have same-sex weddings and forcing, you know,
38:48
Protestant churches to embrace these people in a certain way.
38:52
But the thing that we saw during COVID is that a lot of these pastors, you know, in their
38:56
$2,000 suits and their, their sports cars and all that, they folded like cheap laundry.
39:00
That's exactly what they did whenever the government's like, "Yeah, you're not going
39:03
to do that."
39:04
They're like, "Okay, okay, Daddy government."
39:05
And we, it was weird, it was more, there were fewer people that were standing up boldly,
39:10
right?
39:11
That's why they're, that's why we know a lot of their names.
39:13
That's why we know the names, the name of James Coates, because a lot of Canadian pastors
39:17
basically just went along to get along.
39:18
They're like, whatever the government says, we're just going to deal with it, and then
39:20
we're going to, we're going to hide behind Romans 13.
39:23
And the situation that we find ourselves in now is that was really, I feel like the first
39:28
wave about pressing back on the populace to see how much can we control these people just
39:34
by telling them, "We are your moral betters.
39:36
We know better than you just listen to us and we'll keep you safe."
39:39
What is it going to be like next time?
39:40
And again, I don't want to sound conspiratorial.
39:42
There's no to intent for it.
39:43
People have to, any of y'all just listening to this on Apple Podcast or Spotify.
39:46
The problem is, is that if you allow them to push you a little bit, next time they will
39:50
see that as the starting point, not the point that they have to get you back to when that
39:54
becomes problematic.
39:55
I think that another thing that kind of made this even worse was it wasn't just everybody's
40:01
got to be shut down.
40:03
It kind of came to a point and you saw this in California and certainly in Canada, where
40:09
it was all of these things, there were lots of things that were considered okay.
40:15
You can have this meeting wherever that COVID didn't affect, but church was still put in
40:23
the category of super spreader.
40:25
You can't have church, but oh, we can go do, insert whatever because there's lots of things
40:29
that were deemed acceptable.
40:31
And that to me, it kind of seemed a little bit more insidious, I guess, for the lack
40:38
of a better term.
40:39
It seemed more sinister, I guess, would be a better way to put that of like, okay, well,
40:44
church can't meet because it's a super spreader, but all these other things are totally fine
40:47
and dandy.
40:48
Yeah, go to the BLM rally, go to all these different places because COVID doesn't live
40:51
there if you vote correctly.
40:52
So we could go, we could get on that diatribe even further.
40:55
That's partially my fault.
40:57
Let's go to the next section here versus 23 through 31.
40:59
Again, I've forgotten who read last, whoever wants to go.
41:02
You read last.
41:03
Matt, it is your turn.
41:04
Ready to go?
41:05
23 through 31.
41:07
And they were released.
41:08
They went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said
41:12
to them.
41:13
And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, sovereign
41:16
Lord who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through
41:22
the mouth of their father David, your servant said by the Holy Spirit, why did the Gentiles
41:26
rage and the people's plot in vain?
41:29
The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers were gathered together against the
41:33
Lord and against his anointed.
41:36
Or truly in this city, they were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus whom
41:41
you anointed both Herod and Pontius Pilate along with the Gentiles and the people of
41:46
Israel to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
41:52
And now Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak
41:56
your word with all boldness while you stretch out your hand to heal and signs and wonders
42:00
are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.
42:04
And when they have prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken and
42:08
they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continue to speak the word of God with
42:13
boldness.
42:14
I mean, really the thing with this section, I mean, I'd be curious what y'all have to
42:17
say.
42:18
I think it's pretty self explanatory that these people are praying for boldness.
42:22
And I think it's a great reminder for us that we have to pray for that.
42:25
There are people that are that are naturally bold in their personality.
42:28
And so whenever I say something boldly, that shouldn't shock anybody because that's just
42:33
how I communicate typically.
42:34
Like, if you listen to my show and you're like, I'm shocked at how bold you were with
42:37
your opinion.
42:38
It's like, is this your first time?
42:39
It's just your first time here because we've got hundreds of episodes of the same thing.
42:43
But especially for those of you that that's not in your normal Bayley wick.
42:46
That's not your normal countenance is not bold.
42:49
It's still something that we should pray for that I don't really know that a lot of Christians
42:53
are praying for that.
42:54
I think a lot of Christians are praying hope if they're praying at all, hoping that nobody
42:58
challenges them, that they don't have to present an apology or apology for what they believe.
43:03
They just want to kind of go along to get along and kind of like cruise underneath the
43:06
radar as it were.
43:07
Yeah, boldness.
43:08
I mean, I think the misconception that a lot of people have when you talk about being bold
43:13
doesn't mean that you have to be nasty or insensitive.
43:18
It's just speaking the truth regardless of what the consequences might be.
43:24
So when you're, if you're having trouble being bold, it means to me, you're having trouble
43:29
being honest.
43:30
Well, and that's what's interesting about that, Jake, as you, as you bring that up, I will
43:33
get emails from, from people that listen to the show and they're like, man, I'm so glad
43:37
somebody's out there saying it.
43:38
I was like, why aren't you that person?
43:40
Like, so I, I say it into a microphone and you listen to it, you know, on whatever technology
43:44
platform you use, but you can say the same things that I'm saying inside your family at
43:49
your church, at the school board, like there's nothing unique about me.
43:52
Like you shouldn't wait to hear me say it before you feel like you, you've been given
43:57
permission to say it yourself.
43:58
Like, have that own level of boldness.
44:01
Amen.
44:02
Yeah.
44:03
All right.
44:04
One last thing.
44:05
I have to give a nod on verse 28.
44:08
This is a really interesting that they talked about, praying to God said, you know, hair
44:12
at Pontius Pilate, everybody comes together to do whatever your hand and your plan had
44:18
predestined to do.
44:20
And so when I say, you know, everybody, everybody reading the Bible believes in election predestination.
44:27
I know we don't have time to get off into this, but I just want to point out that language,
44:31
you mentioned this in one of our former podcast calls, that language is in the Bible.
44:35
And so we need to take it seriously.
44:37
I don't know what you're talking about, Terry.
44:39
Everybody just move right on past that.
44:43
I could just, I could just marinate in that.
44:45
Yeah.
44:46
I bet you could.
44:47
I bet you would.
44:48
I'm just kidding.
44:50
But yes, it kind of goes back in all seriousness to the point that I even said, I can't remember
44:55
if I just said this on the break.
44:56
Or if I said this on a previous week to where it's like, I want to read the scripture, not
45:00
in light of what the things I'm noticing, like, cause again, we talk about if you see
45:04
a certain car and then now you see those cars everywhere.
45:07
If it's there, it's there.
45:08
And you have to ask, why is it there and what is it communicating?
45:10
Who is this being communicated to?
45:12
Is this descriptive or prescriptive?
45:14
You have to kind of ask those questions and when you constantly see the language of predestination,
45:18
go ahead, Terry.
45:19
Well, the one thing I wanted to bring it said, sidestepping for a minute, the idea of predestination,
45:23
in this context, think about what predestination meant to them.
45:27
It didn't mean, oh no, who saved?
45:30
Who's not saved?
45:31
Did God's cause everything?
45:32
Does God cause nothing?
45:33
What they were taking comfort from the fact that the worst thing that happened to us, you
45:38
knew about it and you're using it for good.
45:41
So let me sidestep the theology for a minute and say, listen, the fact that God is in charge
45:46
of things?
45:47
For really good news.
45:48
Yeah.
45:49
Yeah.
45:50
And I think just one thing that was said on the previous podcast, Terry mentioned it.
45:56
I think where I think people get hung up on election is just the idea of us not having
46:03
any control over any action that we are just automatons doing exactly what God has predestined
46:10
us to do.
46:11
And I don't think that's correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's what Terry
46:16
is saying is that we have zero say it's that there is some agency in the decisions that
46:23
are being made.
46:24
And even though we might be making and going back to like the story of Joseph, you know,
46:29
what was intended for evil God used for good.
46:32
That's I was going to say, that's Genesis chapter 50.
46:34
It's just comforting to know that there is a plan.
46:37
Yeah.
46:38
And God's in charge.
46:39
Are we ready for the communist church?
46:41
Yes.
46:42
I am ready.
46:43
Terry, I'm ready for you to read it.
46:44
So verses 32 to 37 right now, yeah.
46:49
Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul.
46:52
And no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had
46:56
everything in common.
46:57
And with great power, the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the
47:01
Lord Jesus and great grace was upon them all.
47:05
There wasn't a needy person among them because as many as were owners of land or houses sold
47:10
them and brought the proceeds of what was sold.
47:13
They laid it at the apostles feet and it was distributed to whoever had need.
47:17
Thus, Joseph, who was also called by the apostles, Barnabas, which means son of encouragement,
47:23
he was a Levite, a native of Cyprus.
47:25
He sold a field that belonged to him and brought the money and laid it at the apostles feet.
47:30
I just got to tell you, I'm convinced, I am convinced that we should all be communist
47:34
and socialist.
47:35
And I'm going to use the end of Acts four and Acts two as the basis for that.
47:39
Thank you.
47:40
I really like the end of verse 32 and it says they had everything in common and each was
47:46
given according to their, oh, no, that's not in there.
47:50
No, no, I guess I wasn't in there.
47:52
Wait, so I have to put my hammer and sickle away?
47:54
No, but I just got it.
47:57
I use.
47:58
I was going to say I use comedy though.
47:59
No, I used a capitalism to buy my hammer and sickle whoopsie daisy.
48:02
Well, Terry, tell us why this is not the basis because a lot of people, a lot of well, they
48:08
I say well, meaning, but a lot of, you know, underheaded people will use the end of Acts
48:12
two and acts four to be like, look, communism, socialism, it's right there in the Bible.
48:16
Jesus was a socialist.
48:17
This is just an extension of that.
48:18
Why are they wrong?
48:19
Yeah, they're wrong.
48:20
Actually, it's an astoundingly number of levels to be wrong.
48:24
I mean, that's lame all out.
48:25
That's not easy wrong.
48:26
That's like astounding.
48:27
But let me just give you two.
48:28
One, communism isn't just about sharing your goods.
48:31
That's a minor part of communism as a view of the world and humanity and how we got where
48:36
we are, and it's completely antithetical to the Bible.
48:40
So on a deep level, the communism is far more than just sharing what you have.
48:44
That's a very thin understanding.
48:48
Communism in the Bible have absolutely no overlap whatsoever.
48:52
But let's step back to the shallow part.
48:54
And that is that, well, forget communism for a minute.
48:58
Shouldn't we all be communal in our goods?
49:01
That's probably what people actually mean by that.
49:04
That's sort of a, let's all hold hands, sing kumbaya, have a Coca-Cola, and other world
49:08
will be great, right?
49:09
And so one thing I would say, let me just kick this off by saying this.
49:14
Most of the systems that want to do that mandate that you give your stuff, right?
49:20
It's not voluntary.
49:21
There's no mandate in this whatsoever.
49:23
And there's nothing in here and says, oh, and by the way, the apostles told everybody,
49:28
you better go sell all your stuff.
49:30
So what you have here is heart change versus external coercion.
49:35
Yeah, right.
49:36
That's one major difference.
49:37
Kind of goes back to the, like reorientating your life, like I'm not giving because I'm
49:41
mandated to, like I have been filled by the Holy Spirit.
49:44
I am saved.
49:45
I'm in this community and there's a want to be in community and to provide for those who
49:50
are less fortunate.
49:52
So yeah, I have this theory and I think I've shared it with Matt before, but you know,
50:00
capitalism was not invented.
50:03
It was discovered, okay?
50:05
The invisible hand is something that literally it's just how things are ordered on this planet
50:12
that resources are moved to their most efficient location.
50:18
And I actually, I said to Matt, I was like, how can that not be godly?
50:22
I mean, if you're just discovering something that exists on this planet now, I also think
50:26
it's interesting that we are warned against the sin of the excess of capitalism in greed.
50:33
So I'm going, well, if he's ordered it this way, just like we've ordered certain, there's
50:39
a certain natural order to sex and procreation, there's a certain natural order there, but
50:45
we are warned against the excesses of it.
50:47
So I think it's kind of interesting that we have things that have been put in order.
50:51
If it's discovered as just the natural state, to me, it's how God created it.
50:57
When I think some people will create a theology out of their favorite system.
51:02
So it could be capitalism or maybe they're big second amendment people.
51:04
So there are guys that will write scripture on their AR 15s and all that.
51:07
And I remember being asked about that.
51:08
Well, I was going to be asked about it.
51:10
It was on the list of questions whenever I did that debate on Justin Briarley's debate
51:14
show over the UK where I was going up against a pacifistic anti gun Christian activist named
51:19
Shane Clayborn, who that's only one of the myriad of things he's really dumb about.
51:23
But like, they were going to ask about people that wrote, you know, about scriptures, you
51:27
know, on on their AR 15s, I don't be like, yeah, that seems pretty idolatrous.
51:31
Like, I don't know why you would make an idol out of the second amendment or out of protecting
51:34
yourself.
51:35
Now it is a biblical, you know, dictate that we should protect ourselves and protect other
51:40
image bearers of God.
51:41
But at this moment, like this, this idea that you've, you know, raised that to a certain
51:46
level of importance that that, you know, shouldn't be there is important for us to look at.
51:50
The same thing would be true of capitalism could be one was a Churchill.
51:53
I think this is maybe the second Churchill reference where he said, you know, capitalism
51:56
is a worse system that we know of, except for all the others.
51:59
And so it's like, it, this is democracy, wasn't it?
52:02
Yeah.
52:03
Okay.
52:04
But that's, this is a, that's right.
52:05
That's right.
52:06
But there's a, yeah, sorry, Joby.
52:07
Don't tell Terry, like there, there's a, there's a comparative element here that when
52:11
it's like, okay, capitalism is the devil.
52:14
What would you like to replace this devil with?
52:18
What, what system do you think would make things more equitable and lead to even more
52:22
human flourishing?
52:23
Cause to date, the most human flourishing has been brought by the system of capitalism.
52:27
And all other systems would be man-made and in thought of by man, right.
52:31
And inherently flawed.
52:32
Well, that's the other thing here that, you know, when Christians look at this as like,
52:34
yes, of course, this was not voluntary.
52:37
And at the end of every law is the threat of force.
52:40
Right.
52:41
Okay.
52:42
And people are like, no, that's not true.
52:45
I was like, really?
52:46
So if Matt, when he got pulled over in Luther, Oklahoma, or Jones, or wherever you got pulled
52:48
over, you're pulled over and the cops just get out of the car and you say, no, is he
52:54
going to be like, well, gosh darn it.
52:55
That's just, you're right.
52:56
You go ahead and sit on in there.
52:57
I guess I have no power here.
52:58
No, I'm sorry.
52:59
You're going for a ride.
53:00
Baby.
53:01
And it's going to be in the back of his car after he hopefully suplexes you on to the,
53:05
the asphalt.
53:06
That guy wasn't suplexing anybody.
53:07
Yeah.
53:08
Well, you know, he did have a gun anyway, but, but that's, that's really the thing where
53:11
these people is like, look, these are not idle suggestions whenever it's under communistic
53:16
or socialistic rule.
53:17
It is like, you will do this and we're going to make it seem like it's voluntary.
53:21
But if you go outside of our dictates, we will crush you and potentially kill you.
53:26
It's like, is that the system?
53:27
That's the system that you want to live under?
53:29
No, thanks.
53:30
Yeah.
53:31
I think just in general, this abroad statement, but the coercive power of the state can be
53:37
a good thing.
53:38
Can be a bad thing.
53:39
Realism can be taken too far, but in general, you're going to have to admit that it has
53:43
resulted in an elevation of human flourishing.
53:46
Now, I mean, I fully endorse it or not.
53:49
It's a tool.
53:50
Let's use it to do good with, but the coercive power of the state is going to come and go.
53:55
Those who live by the sword die by the sword, but the change of heart will change the world.
54:00
And this, this is an example of what happens when people get a new heart and a new soul,
54:06
and they begin to behave very differently, and no one had to make them share with their
54:10
neighbor.
54:11
Yeah.
54:12
Well, I think it's a good point to talk about like we look at these scriptures and we see
54:16
and we know that, okay, this whatever system is for the good of the world, and we think
54:22
so broadly, and like I really love how Jordan Peterson frames it, he's confronted by a woman
54:28
who's talking about, I think she's talking about littering and like mandating, like cleaning
54:32
up.
54:33
And he's like, well, let's start with yourself.
54:36
And what's, I don't know who said it, but everybody wants to change the world, but nobody
54:40
wants to make their bed.
54:42
And it starts, if you're not willing to play these things out in your own home, and I'm
54:47
speaking to myself, just as I am speaking to anybody else, if you're not willing to seek
54:52
this out and play this out in your own home, like why on earth would you go beyond that
54:56
and try to change the world when, and I mean, that's kind of the call to a pastor too.
55:00
You can't pastor, you can't be a shepherd of a flock if your own flock at home is not
55:04
flourishing.
55:05
Like, you're in anathema, like don't even try.
55:08
So I think we, we look so far and look so broad that we forget what's right in front
55:14
of us and how we can impact the our world right where we are.
55:18
Well, that's dominion, right?
55:20
And so it's like, yeah, people that are trying to enforce their ideals of dominion onto you
55:25
and onto society were at large, and yet their lives are an absolute mess.
55:29
And it's like you've been an abject failure at everything, and yet you were telling me
55:32
how to structure my life.
55:34
Yeah.
55:35
Like that same woman who's like chastising Peterson for pushing back on publicly mandating
55:39
like picking up littering and he just like, he like Slater or her whole argument with
55:43
a question, he's like, well, do you, do you pick up trash in your own neighbor?
55:47
Well, no, I don't pick up trash in my own neighborhood, but I, but I think the government
55:51
should make sure that everybody else does it's the difference between the theoretical and
55:55
the actual.
55:56
So yeah, these people are like, we need open borders, take in all the immigrants, and then
55:59
you'll have these people go to these men on the street interviews.
56:01
And they say, well, we're actually writing down names of volunteers to take immigrants
56:04
into their homes.
56:05
Would you like to go ahead and sign up?
56:06
Well, no, no, no, I rent, or, you know, I use my extra, my extra bedroom to do yoga.
56:11
It's like, yeah, trying to live your yard sign.
56:15
Yeah.
56:16
No, I think so the whole, there's been a recent thing where I think it was maybe Jimmy Kimmel
56:21
was talking about how, how clean Japan was.
56:25
You guys, are you guys familiar with it?
56:26
Yeah.
56:27
Yeah.
56:28
Exactly.
56:29
And so, so, but in Japan, in Japan, they, that there's a law against littering.
56:35
It's called illegal dumping.
56:37
And if you litter, it is punishable by up to 10 years in prison.
56:42
And I'm just going, okay, so back to the coercive power of government.
56:48
Is that a system you want to live in?
56:50
It's like, I miss the trash can, I, you know, and now I'm in prison for 10 years.
56:55
So there is a trade off and no matter what, I mean, it's like, okay, well, I have more
57:00
freedom here and I have the ability to be free of some punishment that would be, that
57:06
would deprive me of those freedoms.
57:08
Maybe I have a fine, but I'm not going to prison.
57:10
Well, that's the problem with univariate analysis.
57:12
When you look at one variable, so Tucker Carlson goes over there and he goes grocery shopping
57:16
with all his producers.
57:17
You look how cheap everything is.
57:18
It's like, yes, also Russians make about 25 cents for every dollar that Americans make.
57:23
So the groceries better cost that much, but yeah, it makes total sense.
57:26
If you're like, okay, let's only look at this one thing at this one place on the planet
57:29
at this one place in time as well, like taking a scripture in a context.
57:33
Yeah.
57:34
Oh, who would do that?
57:35
We're not, we're not going to name names on this podcast because we do it all the time.
57:37
But guys, we're going to go ahead and leave that there.
57:39
We really appreciate all you guys being here for our discussion of acts four, but be back
57:43
here next week for acts five, we are going from one special guest and Terry fakes to another
57:48
special guest guys.
57:49
I'm so pumped for you to hear that who is going to be on acts five and they're forward.
57:53
So you will have to make sure that you are ready to go for next week.
57:56
Make sure you read up all the way through acts five.
57:58
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost out and down to
58:01
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58:02
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But I just want to thank Terry fakes.
58:16
Thank you so much for being here for this last gaggle of episodes.
58:19
It was tremendous.
58:20
Like it became a problem because I kept taking notes whenever I was trying to like also drive
58:24
the boat.
58:25
So if it seemed like I got scatterbrained to different points of this because you're dropping
58:27
a bunch of truth bombs, but we really do appreciate your time for our audience.
58:31
I've loved it.
58:32
Yeah.
58:33
Appreciate you guys and what you're doing.
58:34
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58:35
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58:36
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