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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:53
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:55
Let's get into it.
0:57
Welcome back to the forging table.
0:58
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:01
forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:04
At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:07
by digging into God's Word and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with
1:10
us.
1:11
That's Matt.
1:12
That's Terry.
1:13
That is the Winkler over there.
1:14
Now, here's the thing guys, before we get into Acts three, I'm going to set you up with
1:17
what my question is for you because I wrote this question down earlier this week, but
1:20
then I need to go back to something that happened during the break.
1:23
So my question for you is, is there a time in your life that comes to mind where a thing
1:29
happened that you would have not believed it unless you saw it with your own eyes?
1:34
So be thinking about, I experienced this thing that had I not been there and seen it with
1:38
my own eyes and I had only been being told about it by a third party that I would not
1:42
have believed it.
1:43
So keep that in mind, but Terry, you used a word during the break that I was shocked
1:47
to hear come out of your mouth or actually it was an entire phrase.
1:49
It was, I am angry about.
1:52
And then there was a blank in there and I was like, Terry, Terry, Terry, who has never
1:57
been angry.
1:58
Right?
1:59
This is kind of an issue.
2:00
But it's something that came up last week where you were talking about pop theology.
2:03
And so you were talking about how basically cultural theology has not really taken over,
2:09
but how that's really a sticking point for you.
2:11
I'm kind of being funny with the anger thing, but how that really, really does bother you.
2:16
And so I just want you to talk a little bit more about that before you get into the text
2:19
of Acts 3 because I'm bothered by it because I'm steeped in what's happening in the culture
2:23
and in society so that I could talk about it on the show and so that I could help maybe
2:26
shepherd some guys towards something better.
2:29
But for you and your pastoral role and really with your background, why does that really
2:32
like grind your gear so much?
2:33
Well, to me in the scripture, there are a lot of things that Jesus, think about Jesus
2:39
just for a moment, you know, he didn't get mad at the woman at the well, even though
2:43
she was wrong.
2:44
He didn't get mad at a lot of people.
2:46
He showed them a lot of grace, even though they were wrong, but he did get very angry
2:51
at certain people.
2:52
And you have to ask yourself, why?
2:53
What's the difference?
2:54
And so I spent a lot of time looking at that, trying to figure out what's the bright line.
2:58
And the bright line was interfering with people's salvation when it became, you know, you can
3:03
be wrong and not be evil, but Jesus seemed to treat people that were interfering with
3:09
other people's salvation as on a different level.
3:12
And to me, the pop theology is doing just that, and that is basically taking the truth
3:18
of the scripture and changing it even with sincere motives so that I can reach for people.
3:26
But to do that, I have to compromise.
3:29
And one of my pastoral guidelines has been the apostle Paul, when he was on the way to
3:34
Rome in Acts chapter 20, he stopped, you remember this, and the Ephesian elders came
3:38
out to see him and he said this line.
3:40
He said several things to them, but he said, "I declare to you today that I am innocent
3:45
of the blood of all men because I have declared to you the full counsel of God.
3:52
And one of the things that does get to me is the idea of theology that leaves things
3:58
out in order, even with the best of motives, in order to reach people."
4:04
And I do think that's what's happening in our culture with the humanistic gospel, the
4:10
sovereignty of the individual.
4:12
There can be this thought in the church that, well, in order to reach those people, I'm
4:17
going to have to tell them part of the gospel, but I can't tell them the whole gospel.
4:21
And that to me is distressing, but it's also angry.
4:24
Well, it's angry as well because you get into the different church movements where, hey,
4:30
we're going to try to remove all the obstacles for somebody.
4:34
So the church service feels a lot like everything else the person experiences.
4:37
So the lobby looks really nice and it feels good.
4:40
And the first song the band plays is a secular song where there's secular music playing in
4:45
the lobby.
4:46
So you feel comfortable.
4:47
I've talked to pastors before that say, "Yeah, I just kind of cussed so people will be more
4:50
comfortable around me so that they come in and feel like, oh, that's just one of the
4:54
guys."
4:55
And so they're actively doing it to try to bring people closer.
4:59
And what we're seeing now with some of the data that Ligonier and other people put out,
5:03
we're showing that it's not those churches that are finding tremendous levels of success
5:08
when compared to the other churches that are a lot more orthodox and I don't mean like
5:11
Eastern Orthodox.
5:12
The ones that are very different, that are very outright in saying, like, look, we're
5:17
going to discuss these hard verses and we're going to expose the scripture and we're going
5:21
to go line by line.
5:22
We're not going to build out a six week series based on this TED talky type, you know, here's
5:27
how you can be, you know, a better husband and six easy steps kind of thing and then sprinkle
5:31
some Bible verses over it on the back end.
5:33
And as those churches that seem to be thriving, even inside of Judaism, some of the more modern
5:38
versions of Judaism that don't really keep to the Torah or keep to kosher any of those
5:42
types of things, those are the ones that are falling away and dying.
5:45
They're dying on the vine and it's the orthodox ones that are thriving.
5:48
So I don't know what it's like for you guys, but I feel like it's very problematic for me
5:52
when I see people that I like that spend a lot of time steeped in the theology of some
5:56
of these people, like maybe it's an Andy Stanley or a Stephen Furtick or a, you know, whoever's
6:00
currently running Bethel Church or something like that to where it's like, oh, no, like
6:04
they're just getting so much stuff that's not biblical.
6:07
It's scary.
6:08
Well, I think the fear is like Terry alluded to is it's, it's, it's angering because you,
6:12
you know that God is being some, or is, they're trying to subvert what God is trying to do.
6:21
And they're basically condemning people to hell, and I think of the prosperity gospel,
6:27
I think of like what Terry's talking about, like the pop, what he was talking about last
6:31
week, the pop culture gospel.
6:35
And I like, and I think again, pure motives don't really matter because if you were thinking
6:42
that you're loving somebody by telling them that everything they're doing is okay and
6:46
there's no need for repentance, you're condemning them to hell.
6:50
And that, and like you said, Terry, when you're, when you mess with people, salvation, that,
6:55
that should, that should let a fire in us.
6:58
That should make us angry because we know what the word says and we should be out there combating
7:04
that and speaking truth to that in a loving way, obviously, and, and I like how Stephen
7:09
Lawson puts it like, if the world is the ocean, we are all ships and ships were made to be
7:14
on the ocean.
7:15
We can't seclude ourselves from the world, but we must be in the ocean, but not let the
7:20
water get into our boat.
7:22
And that's, that can be really difficult, especially when there's all this stuff out
7:26
that it feels really nice and it feels good and it seems like it's, it has that kind of
7:33
veneer of Christianity.
7:35
It's really hard.
7:36
So that, that's why digging into the word is essential and you can't know fake if you
7:42
don't know the, the authentic.
7:45
Well, there's a lot of power in Christian adjacent.
7:47
So like Joel Osteen is not Christian.
7:48
He's Christian adjacent.
7:49
And so it like, it feels good.
7:50
It kind of feels like church, but it's basically here's some ways for, for you to be happy.
7:56
And so you'll be happy enough to, to give me money.
7:58
And so that, I mean, I'm painting with an incredibly broad brush, but Terry, as you were
8:01
describing, I was reminded of Matthew 18 six, but whoever causes one of these little ones
8:05
who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fasten around
8:09
his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
8:12
Now, some people have executed this improperly to think that he's talking about like adolescence,
8:16
like, like children, which that is, that is not the case.
8:19
So even like state of Florida did something called the millstone act, which was about,
8:23
you know, child predators and, and those types of things.
8:25
And it's like, that's not exactly what he's talking about because in this context, you
8:28
could be a 90 year old child, right?
8:31
So it's, it's someone who's young in the faith and it's someone that you're kind of drawing
8:34
them away from the words of scripture.
8:36
And so I think that's one of the damaging things about pop theology as well.
8:39
Anybody else have something on that before we dig in?
8:41
I've given you plenty of time to sit there and think about the thing that you would not
8:45
have believed if you had not seen it with your own eyes.
8:48
And so if somebody's ready to go, go ahead.
8:49
If not, I'll go ahead and do mine to give you a little bit of extra time.
8:53
Okay.
8:54
It looks like I'm going first.
8:55
Okay.
8:56
Because I have two of them.
8:57
Okay.
8:58
The first time is whenever I did a bus tour along the Amalfi coast.
9:01
And so first of all, made a mistake to where they were doing a lunch for us that I did
9:06
not realize was like a six, seven course lunch that ended with, you know, gelato.
9:11
And so they bring out the first course and I'm like, crap, I'm going to eat like two
9:14
or three of these because like this isn't going to be enough food.
9:17
And so I'm like, I finished my wives and I finished someone else's and all that.
9:21
And then they brought out the rest of the courses.
9:22
And so by the time there's a lot of comes out, it's like, I have no self control.
9:25
Of course, I'm going to eat that.
9:26
And so I'm like, all right, let's get on this bus and drive the Amalfi coast.
9:29
Well, if you've not been on the Amalfi coast, it's pretty windy.
9:32
All right.
9:33
So it's left and riding up and down and let's, you know, double back and do this.
9:37
And I'm on the back of the bus and if you're on the back of the bus, you got a lot more
9:40
swing as you're going through.
9:42
So I think I'm about to blow chunks all over this bus.
9:45
And I'm like just doing everything I can to like not throw up.
9:48
I'm just sitting there like concentrating on this one like nail that's on the floor.
9:51
And then I like, look out the window and it's right there on the Amalfi coast.
9:55
And if I'm lying, I'm dying.
9:56
I'm not trying to be hyperbolic.
9:57
I could not tell where the sea ended and the sky began.
10:01
It was just sheer beauty.
10:03
And again, I just tracked at me from, you know, just a second of like trying, you know, not
10:07
to up check here on the bus, but then whenever we stopped, I was able to kind of chill and
10:11
try to like let my stomach settle and you're looking out even out of the bus.
10:14
And I couldn't believe what my eyes were seeing.
10:16
Like, had I not been there and someone was like, Oh, you couldn't tell where the sea
10:18
ended in the sky began.
10:19
I would have thought they were, they were going to be hyperbolic.
10:21
And the other would be recently UFC 300 when Max Holloway knocked out a guy with one second
10:27
left to go on the clock.
10:28
And you know, what I've already talked about on the show is the greatest knockout I've
10:31
ever seen in MMA history from a guy who's not a one punch knockout artist.
10:34
And so that's one of those things that if someone had described to me what had happened
10:37
before I saw it with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it.
10:40
So that's the most recent sports example I can think of, but now somebody else, don't
10:43
leave me hanging here.
10:44
What's the thing in your life?
10:45
You got your whole life to reference here.
10:47
The thing that if you hadn't seen it with your own eyes, you wouldn't have believed it.
10:50
I would say, okay, I'll go with one.
10:53
I had a prank that went horribly wrong.
10:55
I thought you were going to go with Cubs.
10:57
Oh, I wasn't going to do that to Kyle again.
10:59
Thank God.
11:00
You just did.
11:01
It just happened.
11:02
Talking about it, I had a prank that went horribly wrong in high school.
11:07
We had these two girls went to go house it for a friend of mine in Deer Creek.
11:12
And they were also babysitting their six year old daughter.
11:15
And we thought they lived on like these five acres and we thought it would be a lot of
11:20
fun to go out there and just prank them.
11:24
And we're had no idea what we're going to do, but we took my dad's truck out, drove
11:29
out, walked up the driveway that was probably 200 yards long.
11:35
And we decide that we're just going to see if we can get in the house.
11:41
And we're also disappointed already.
11:45
So and keep in mind, this is, these are all good church going, like, you know, every Wednesday,
11:51
every Sunday morning, you know, we just thought, Hey, this might be fun.
11:53
So we go around, we check all the doors.
11:55
They're all locked.
11:57
We found a, but the garage door was open.
12:01
And there was a ladder inside.
12:03
And we remembered that our buddy did not keep his window locked because he opened it every
12:07
night for to let air in.
12:10
So we climb up, windows unlocked, we climb in.
12:15
We get in there and one of the young ladies comes up and actually checks the room.
12:19
We're all hidden.
12:20
She closes the door.
12:21
She walks out.
12:23
We actually end up hiding and then decide, let's just start throwing stuff down on the
12:27
floor so they can hear that we're upstairs.
12:30
We start hearing them like panic.
12:31
So we decide, okay, let's go down and actually say it's us.
12:36
But they're all hiding in a room.
12:38
We walk in.
12:40
One of them's on the phone and the other one's holding this six year old, like just in fear
12:43
because one of a, you know, my buddy Brandon, he walked around with a, he had a little jacket
12:49
over his face.
12:50
So they got shot.
12:51
Yeah.
12:52
Yeah.
12:53
I'm getting there.
12:54
This happened in Oklahoma, this was in Oklahoma, I know, I'm sorry, I'm taking too
12:59
long.
13:00
No, this is good.
13:01
So anyways, he walks in and then he drops the coat and we start laughing and she was
13:06
like, I was on the phone with the police was on the, I was called 911.
13:10
And we were like, well, call them back, like tell them that it was a prank.
13:13
And they, she calls back and they said, well, we've already dispatched units.
13:17
I go to the front window and there are 10 to 12 sheriff officers outside looking inside
13:23
my dad's truck, trying to figure out what's going on.
13:27
So I walk outside and see an officer running up the driveway, uh, like the neighbors driveway
13:35
is running at the neighbors driveway.
13:37
And I say, excuse me, sir.
13:39
And he gets his gun out.
13:42
It's on me.
13:43
He's get on the ground, get on the ground.
13:44
The other, my other guy, the other guys are walking out to get on the ground, get on the
13:47
ground.
13:49
We all lay down and I should all also say, I was in a sling at the time.
13:54
So I couldn't get my other arm up.
13:55
So he's like, let me see your other arm.
13:57
Let me see.
13:58
Well, it, he ends up walking up.
14:02
He gets closer to us.
14:04
And, uh, one of the guys that was with me was named Ryan Ferguson, uh, he comes up and
14:08
he gets real close and he just goes, ferg is that you?
14:12
And he looks up and it was actually the kicker on our football team.
14:16
It was his dad who just happened to be a sheriff, which is the only reason we were bailed out
14:21
of the situation.
14:22
Now, what made it even funnier was after her, when we told them what was going on and explained
14:26
everything, the cops started telling us, here's all the things we also should have done.
14:31
Like, why didn't you throw the breakers to the house?
14:34
Like, is there an intercom system?
14:37
Why did you talk to them through the intercom upstairs?
14:39
I mean, it was awesome.
14:40
So I would, to me, it's like, I always tell people, but my mom always used to brag and
14:45
say, well, my kids never never spent any time in the back of a cop car.
14:50
And I go, yeah, but one of them spent it on the other side of a cop's gun.
14:53
So I bet you, you didn't assume you were going to have that anything to, uh, to that
14:58
night.
14:59
No.
15:00
Well, Matt, Terry, something that you would not have believed if you had not been there
15:03
and seen it for your own, your own self with your own eyes, this, this is a pastor story
15:07
and probably a lot of pastors have this story.
15:09
This is maybe a bit of a downer, but, uh, I do believe in, um, uh, I, uh, I don't know
15:14
how miraculous activities of God, I believe demons are real, uh, but I'm not somebody
15:20
that thinks a demon can take over you against your will, you know, he that is inside you
15:26
is greater than he's in the world.
15:27
So, uh, just leaving the theology aside for a minute, it's a very balanced point of view,
15:31
but I don't deny the existence of those things.
15:33
But when you hear about people acting, you know, kind of crazy, kind of demonic, a lot
15:39
of times, those are people that have mental problems, um, but I remember one time in particular,
15:46
there was a person that had come to the church was with a pastor friend of mine and, uh,
15:52
came to see me, you know, he comes to see me and he says, this is, this is not mental
15:56
illness.
15:57
And I'm like, yeah, well, probably is.
15:58
Let's get the counselors involved.
16:00
And he goes, well, we already have and they kind of agree with me.
16:03
And so I get in there and talk to this person, I realize, yeah, you know what, this could
16:07
be demonic oppression.
16:09
No doubt about it.
16:10
I mean, I would not have believed it.
16:12
It's not that I don't believe in the supernatural.
16:15
I just don't believe in any particular cases necessarily that, but having sat down, talked
16:21
to this person, I thought, yeah, no, I wouldn't have wouldn't have believed that, but I think
16:26
that's right.
16:27
What kind of made you come to that conclusion?
16:29
What were they showing?
16:30
You know, it wasn't the, uh, you know, exorcist kind of head spinning around, you know, projectile
16:34
vomiting, you know, speaking.
16:36
But then normal stuff.
16:37
Yeah.
16:38
It's not the usual stuff.
16:39
Yeah.
16:40
It's not like put your two year old dude.
16:42
Yeah.
16:43
Same.
16:44
This is, uh, it was more of a justice presence and a sense of evil.
16:49
This person wasn't crazy acting.
16:51
This person was very manipulative acting.
16:54
This person was very focused, intense, but not very genuine.
16:58
You know, it's almost as though you get this deep sense.
17:01
And again, this is a subjective experience I'm telling you, my feeling was there's somebody
17:06
in there there and there's a malevolence here.
17:08
And I've dealt with malevolent people.
17:10
This is a different level.
17:12
So it was more of the sense of malevolence through their behavior as opposed to cutting
17:17
themselves or doing something like that.
17:19
I'm glad I heard you say that particular story in Matt and I won't go along just because
17:23
I remember there's a guy that wrote a book called, Oh my gosh, that was, that was my
17:27
story.
17:28
Go ahead.
17:29
Go ahead.
17:30
Because I worked at Life Church when this happened.
17:31
I actually saw some of this stuff firsthand.
17:33
So Kyle's about to talk about is this guy named Mike Leehan and he tried to assassinate
17:41
Craig Rochelle and he was at the church.
17:43
He was always there.
17:44
He said that Satan told him to kill Craig Rochelle.
17:48
So he was always at the church and I worked at Life Church at the time.
17:51
And so they passed around this guy's picture.
17:53
And so we had to be on alert and we had a specific protocol that we had to follow if
17:58
we saw this guy on campus.
18:00
And I had had interactions with this guy before through some people that I knew that he lived
18:06
in their neighborhood.
18:07
So I kind of knew who he was, but then I didn't really know he was trying to kill Greg Rochelle.
18:11
So they didn't kind of put that together.
18:13
And I'm going back, kind of like you're saying, it's not like this crazy head spinning, like
18:19
I'm going to crawl on the wall kind of thing, but there's this kind of heaviness and kind
18:23
of this off feeling.
18:25
It's like something is not right here.
18:27
And so that was him experiencing this like demonic possession of like trying to act out
18:37
killing Craig Rochelle.
18:38
But the amazing thing and the power of the Holy Spirit is to see him on the other side.
18:44
He wrote a book called a sent from darkness.
18:46
And now he goes around.
18:47
I mean, the guy's just the difference in just the way his eyes look now compared to what
18:53
he was.
18:54
Like the guy is just on fire for the Lord and he's just one of the most amazing people
19:00
that you could ever talk to.
19:01
And now he just goes around telling his story and telling people about Jesus and what Jesus
19:05
has done for him.
19:06
And it's, I would not have, I would not have believed that that could be a thing because
19:12
I'm like, you, I believe in that stuff, but I've never experienced that really.
19:16
Like I've not ever seen any of that stuff before.
19:19
So yeah, I would not have believed that if somebody had just said, Hey, this is what
19:22
happened.
19:23
I believe it.
19:24
And it's one thing to actually have to believe your lion eyes and the thing I remember when
19:27
I met Michael Lee and we were at a table and we were just kind of going around introducing
19:31
ourselves.
19:32
I think I'm 22 or 23.
19:33
And it's like, Hey, I'm college.
19:34
I just graduated from UCO and I like sports bubble on.
19:37
He's like, Hey, Michael, I used to be a practicing Satanist.
19:39
I used to sacrifice cats.
19:41
I had powers and I was arrested because I was trying to kill Craig Rochelle.
19:44
But now I'm a Christian.
19:45
Like, bro, why couldn't you have gone first?
19:47
Like, come on.
19:48
Like, you got like, we just did these lamest introductions of ourselves.
19:52
When you were talking about the, the weight that you felt in the room, I talked to the
19:56
pastors that went to Michael Lee hands home the night that he accepted Christ.
20:00
And one of them in particular, he told me he's like, Kyle, when I walked through the door,
20:05
crossed the threshold into this man's home, we knew what we were up against sort of, but
20:11
he's like never, I'm like literally getting chills just describing the story.
20:14
And I wasn't even there.
20:15
He's like, I've never felt oppression before.
20:18
I've never felt it like with my senses.
20:21
And he's like, we all crossed the threshold and we talked about it later because we all
20:24
felt it, but we didn't say anything.
20:25
They're like, we felt pressure, but we felt like our bodies were being pushed and like
20:30
there was pressure on our chest and like, he's like, I'd never experienced it before.
20:34
And I haven't experienced it since.
20:35
And he's like the level of demonic oppression that was going on in the household.
20:40
We only realized that the pressure valve had been released whenever, you know, the moment
20:45
he came to Christ and, you know, he kind of broke down and his eyes changed and kind of
20:49
the whole deal.
20:52
And it was like the pressure in the atmosphere left.
20:54
And it's one thing to hear someone say that.
20:57
And you're like, I think I believe you, but you may be just telling me a story.
21:00
So you sound cool.
21:01
But it's kind of the same thing with you is like, you believed in that stuff, but then
21:04
feeling it and feeling what that feels like is a whole different thing.
21:08
And I didn't want to just just bring that up so that we could all like compare stories.
21:11
Well, Matt, did you, or you were, you were going to talk about Lehan.
21:14
That's an important thing for us to realize is if we see things in scripture, just because
21:18
we haven't seen them before, doesn't mean that they didn't happen and it doesn't mean
21:22
that they're outside of the realm of possibility.
21:24
And I'm mainly preaching to myself.
21:25
And that really gets into the very beginning part of Acts three here.
21:28
And so Matt, if you will go ahead and read verses one through 10 and then we'll dig in
21:33
from there.
21:34
Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour, and
21:39
a man lame from birth was being carried whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple that
21:43
is called the beautiful gate to ask alms of those entering the temple.
21:47
And Peter and John about to go into the temple.
21:50
He asked to receive alms and Peter directed his gaze at him as did John and said, look
21:54
at us.
21:55
And he fixed his attention on them expecting to receive something from them.
21:58
Peter said, I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you in the name of
22:04
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.
22:06
And he took him by the right hand and raised him up and immediately his feet and ankles
22:11
were made strong and leaping up, he stood and began to walk and entered the temple with
22:16
them, walking and leaping and praising God.
22:18
And all the people saw him walking and praising God and recognized him as the one who sat at
22:23
the beautiful gate of the temple, asking for alms.
22:26
And they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.
22:30
So there's a lot of stuff that we can talk about here.
22:32
And Jake, I know you talked about chapter three that you had quite a bit that you wanted
22:35
to get into.
22:36
So I'm not sure if then the section you have some stuff.
22:38
So just the one thing that I wanted to mention here is a reason why I wanted to hear stories
22:41
from you guys about things that you wouldn't believe unless you had seen it.
22:44
I personally have issues reading stories like this, just automatically believing it.
22:50
That doesn't mean that I don't believe it because I do.
22:51
I do believe that these things happened.
22:54
But some people, when you hear about people that do ministry work in like Africa, for
22:58
instance, these are people that believe in the supernatural, like almost inherently, regardless
23:03
of their upbringing, when they get to Christianity, the idea of a Middle Eastern Jew rising from
23:07
the dead, they're like, yeah, that makes total sense.
23:10
Or is in our Western scientific, logical concept, it's like, okay, so the guy had never walked
23:17
in his entire life.
23:18
And then some random dude with the Holy Spirit, just looks down at him and all of a sudden
23:22
he's skipping around and jumping around in his legs that had to have been atrophy to
23:26
the point of barely existing are all of a sudden strong and virile and all those different
23:31
things.
23:32
And so that's something that I have to try to remind myself about that.
23:36
But at the same time, I'm always skeptical when I hear these stories of modern day healings.
23:41
Because you see these people that are just like poof and they touch someone's head and
23:43
then all of a sudden they never have another migraine or all of a sudden they can walk
23:46
and they get up out of the wheelchair.
23:48
We've seen enough examples of people that have done this to steal money from individuals
23:54
to where it's kind of tinged the way that I see these stories of healings.
23:57
And I'm like, oh, how does that attach to this?
23:59
So y'all go with that wherever you want to go.
24:01
I mean, I have a whole thing here I want to talk about, but I feel compelled to share
24:05
this story.
24:06
I've told Matt about this about my cousin.
24:11
So my cousin Austin Winkler, lead singer of hinder, for those who are familiar, had
24:19
a real problem with addiction, alcohol pills.
24:24
And he got really sick, kidney and liver failure.
24:32
And we were like, I went up to go see him at the hospital and he didn't want anybody to
24:37
see him for a long time because he was, he had lost so much weight.
24:41
He weighed like 110 pounds, he's 64.
24:44
So he weighed like 110 pounds and his skin was just yellow with jaundice.
24:52
And when we were told like he wants to see people, my initial thought was it's because
24:59
we're going to lose him and my loving wife back then crossing actually sold Bibles at
25:08
the church.
25:09
Thank God they did.
25:10
She was like, she prayed during the service and at, you know, when we were told we were
25:16
going to go see him that morning, like right before we went in, she was like, I'm going
25:19
to go get a Bible.
25:20
And she spent, she prayed and then she just spent the rest of the time highlighting verses
25:25
from scripture about healing and we go up and visit him at the hospital and she, I end
25:35
up taking my tami to go do something and she's obviously just broken.
25:41
And Stacy sits down with my cousin and says, I have this for you.
25:47
And I prayed, God said he's going to heal you.
25:52
God said he's going to heal you, but you've, you've got to read this.
25:56
And she had all of these things like flagged and highlighted and everything.
26:01
So fast forward, he was on dialysis.
26:05
We didn't think he was going to leave the ICU and he calls me and he was like, I'm getting
26:09
discharged.
26:10
It's like awesome.
26:11
But he was like, but I'm going to be on dialysis and okay, fine.
26:16
I understand he was on like a, couldn't eat more than a hundred grams of sodium a day.
26:20
And so he's on dialysis for a little bit.
26:24
And then he calls me and he's like, can we go to lunch?
26:28
I said, sure.
26:30
I said, you still on your restriction goes, no, that's why I want to go to lunch.
26:33
I'm off the low sodium restriction.
26:34
It's like, great.
26:35
And I tell Stacy about it.
26:36
And she's like, yeah, I know, yeah, I know, it just, I mean, you're not telling me anything
26:43
new.
26:44
I know what's going to happen.
26:47
Fast forward.
26:48
He goes down to dialysis, like literally going every day, he goes down to two days a week.
26:53
And then fast forward a little further from that.
26:56
It then he's like, they're going to take me off of dialysis.
26:59
Now guys, when I say he was yellow, like, I mean, like I said, I thought it was the last
27:03
time I was going to see my cousin and she, the, the faithfulness of my wife there in that
27:10
moment, but also just watching somebody who was so hopelessly addicted and then coming
27:16
out of that, it, it was so miraculous to see.
27:21
And so whenever I read this, I just go back to how my cousin got healed in much the same
27:29
way, because it is still, it's not just the physical healing that I saw, there was a spiritual
27:34
healing there.
27:35
He's been sober for five years now, um, has replaced it with swimming and running, which
27:42
you're going.
27:43
This is somebody who was in kidney liver failure.
27:46
So I'm just saying that, um, I have no heartburn over this, uh, because I've seen it.
27:53
I think when you see it, um, when you see that miraculous healing, I think when you start
27:57
hearing these healing stories, and but yes, obviously the touching and the healing, I
28:00
can see that.
28:01
I mean, all seems sacrilegious to me, but at the same time, that gift of healing, it still
28:07
exists.
28:08
It's just through the medicinal and some of the things that we see that physicians do,
28:14
Dr. Mark Anderson has talked about some of those things in our Sunday school class where
28:18
he just says, yeah, there's people that come in and I just think this is hopeless.
28:22
And then they turn around.
28:24
He goes, and I have no other explanation for it, but God.
28:27
Yeah.
28:28
Well, I think that going back to trying to understand who God is, God doesn't change
28:34
God is who he is now and forever and from eternity and reading that passage, it's very
28:43
easy to think like, Oh, you can be skeptical of that.
28:46
And I'm not saying we should take every healing as Bible truth because there are some hucksters
28:51
out there who are, who are swinging their coats of people and touching them on the head
28:56
and they're quote, unquote healed.
28:58
But for this, for this verse, I wrote down something from Spurgeon.
29:02
It says, whatever the Holy Spirit was at first, he is now for as God, he remains forever the
29:06
same, whatever he did, then he is able to still do for his power is by no means diminished.
29:13
So healing is for today.
29:15
The spirit is for today.
29:17
And we, I think we can be surprised by those things, but we shouldn't be so surprised because
29:24
God can do whatever he wants.
29:25
Well, Terry, I'm curious.
29:27
Has something like that come up for you because I've seen before it's like, okay, Michael Jordan
29:32
walks past the basketball court, someone tosses in my balls, like let's go with me, you let's
29:36
play it one on one.
29:37
You know, a comedian, you know, you find out someone's a professional comedian.
29:39
It's like, Hey, tell me a joke, like be funny for me, like as a pastor, is it ever like,
29:45
all right, show me something, go heal that guy.
29:47
That guy's had a bum leg for the last 20 years that I've known him, like go fix him has
29:51
has something like that ever come up to where it's almost like someone throws down the gauntlet
29:54
and says, all right, pastor, show me if you're God's real.
29:57
Yeah, I think it definitely has happened, but it happens in more subtle way, most of
30:02
the time, I think probably the biggest problem we have with these miracles is we have some
30:07
misconceptions.
30:08
Number one, Peter's going to dispel that in just a few minutes that any of us have the
30:14
powered heal.
30:15
We do not.
30:16
The second thing is that if we have enough faith, we can make trade with God.
30:21
I'll give you faith.
30:22
You give me healing.
30:23
That's prosperity gospel or water faith, you know, kind of thing.
30:25
Yeah, is my prayers or my holiness, you know, can trade that and that's not also not true.
30:34
So people usually come with something like that that if I believe enough and you are
30:37
obviously a quote, holy man, because you're a pastor, which I would argue is also his
30:42
understanding of that, but you know, they come with that expectation.
30:47
And so, but so I have anointed a lot of people and prayed for a lot of people.
30:50
But I always end the prayer, I mean, I say this a lot is like, God, this is what we want,
30:56
but you see farther down the road than we see.
30:59
And you know better than we know, and we trust you to do what is best.
31:03
That's kind of my version of I will be done.
31:05
And sometimes people don't like you to pray that, but that's just true.
31:08
It's like, this is God.
31:09
This is up to God.
31:10
Yeah, I can be sure I can have been to go, even if you don't, save me from the fire, but
31:15
even if you don't, I'm going to praise you anyway.
31:16
Yeah.
31:17
Well, that's the thing that's important.
31:18
I'm not changing chain on the break as well, looking for those things that elucidate or
31:22
really invigorate the scriptures and bring them to life.
31:24
Like it's their song where they're like, you could hear the refrain.
31:27
Well, even if you don't, like we're going to praise you all the same.
31:31
But I would say in addition to that, the thing that I find important in this discussion as
31:36
well is when you think about what's happening, you constantly hear people use the same refrain,
31:40
which is like, well, you know, why do good things happen to, you know, why do bad things
31:44
happen to good people?
31:45
Like what about kids that that are raped and murdered?
31:48
What about, you know, childhood cancer treatment or, you know, cancer diagnosis and all those
31:52
different things like that.
31:53
And you can understand those arguments from a pragmatic standpoint.
31:55
And I can't remember who said it.
31:56
I would love to be able to give them credit, but they were trying to show like, okay, that
32:00
will be done, but in real life, what does that mean?
32:04
That means if God gave you a glimpse into what he sees, you would be cheering on these
32:10
bad things that are happening to people because you would realize bad is a social construct
32:16
to you in your moment in history.
32:19
And then there's that story where, you know, the, you have the story with the farmer and
32:22
the kid and, you know, the, the horses leave and it's like, oh, that's so terrible.
32:26
And then the next day, like, you know, anyway, I'm butchering the story, but it's like, it's
32:29
all about perspective to where it's like, you think something is good that may not be good
32:34
and you think something is bad and it may not be bad.
32:36
And I've heard people even challenged me directly.
32:38
Okay, Kyle, explain to me the good behind a seven year old girl that was kidnapped, raped,
32:43
and murdered.
32:44
Give me, give me the positive and I'm like, in that situation, you're assuming the, the
32:49
judgment seat of God and that you can see everything and everyone that knows that situation.
32:54
But what if someone came to the funeral for that young lady and that's where they, they
32:58
find Christ, that person goes on to be an evangelist and brings other people to Christ?
33:02
Like, again, that's, that seems like a really churchy example.
33:05
But to assume that again, when you're assuming that you're also assuming that there's no
33:09
such thing as eternal judgment and there's no such thing as final judgment.
33:13
So social justice becomes your movement.
33:15
Social justice becomes the dominant force in your life because we have to get justice
33:19
on this planet because there's no such thing as cosmic justice.
33:22
And so I think that that comes into a lot of different descriptions of this.
33:26
But I do want to get into what Peter said.
33:27
And so we can, we can look at these first two chunks of scripture together.
33:31
So Terry, if you wouldn't mind reading, this is Peter's second sermon.
33:34
You know, the first sermon's really focusing on the messianic state of Jesus.
33:38
And this second one is more, more so warning the Jews about their rejection of Jesus.
33:42
So let's read the first part here, verses 11 through 16.
33:46
While the man clung to Peter and John, all the people utterly astounded, ran together
33:52
to them in the portico called Solomon's.
33:55
And when Peter saw it, he addressed the people, men of Israel, why do you wonder at this?
34:00
Or why do you stare at us as though by our own power or holiness, we have made him walk?
34:06
The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers glorified
34:11
his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when
34:16
he had decided to release him.
34:18
But you denied the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
34:23
and you killed the author of life, whom God raised from the dead, to this we are witnesses.
34:30
And his name, by faith in his name, has made this man strong whom you see and know, and
34:35
the faith that is through Jesus has given the man is perfect health in the presence of you
34:40
all.
34:41
So in his second sermon, right there in verse 12, men of Israel, why do you wonder at this?
34:45
Why do you stare at us as though by our power or piety, we have made him walk?
34:51
He's basically saying right from the beginning, like, this wasn't me, y'all, like this wasn't
34:54
me.
34:55
It was God, you know, again, for a guy like Peter, a very proud man, a guy that just pops off
34:59
of the mouth and, you know, talks before he thinks like, I know nothing about that.
35:03
Like I've never done anything like that.
35:04
I don't align directly with exactly how Peter operates, but like this is a guy that you
35:08
would have thought prior to Jesus's resurrection and ascension would have been the first one
35:13
to be like, man, look, we did a pretty job, right?
35:16
Like as Peter's one of those guys, he needs the pad on the head, right?
35:19
So Jake, I know you've been chomping at the bit to get to acts three.
35:21
So in this first chunk of 16 verses or so, I know you had some stuff you want to bring
35:25
up.
35:26
So I'm ready to go.
35:27
I think number one, think about the dynamics at play with both, you have both the beggar
35:33
at the beautiful gate.
35:34
I mean, Herod's temple was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.
35:39
You have the gate that's made of bronze covered in silver and gold and a beggar sitting right
35:47
beside of it.
35:50
But then you also have Peter and John, Peter, the one who ran and John, the one who stayed.
35:57
And you think about this, it's Peter, who is the one going to the beggar, the one who
36:04
ran, he's the one telling the beggar to stand and walk.
36:09
To me, this is just absolutely astounding because you have someone sitting in the sitting next
36:17
to the beautiful gate who by all definition would be unclean, by all definition under
36:22
the Old Testament would be unclean, sitting next to the beautiful gate, this opulent
36:29
decoration that you probably couldn't enter without being clean.
36:37
And this person sitting right outside of it.
36:39
And then Peter, who denies Christ, is the one who approaches the beggar.
36:45
Look at me, rise up and walk.
36:48
And he does.
36:50
I just think that's, to me, that was so impactful just to see the dynamics at play there, the
36:55
unclean versus the clean, and then also the one who denied versus the one who stayed.
37:02
I think that's pretty powerful.
37:03
Well, it goes back to some of our discussions in previous weeks, Terry, I know you were kind
37:09
of bring it up.
37:10
When you're looking at things through the lens of Christian apologetics, you have to look
37:13
for reasons why these guys would have changed their mind.
37:16
And so why would you go from acting one way to acting this way, Paul, from Saul to Paul?
37:20
That's a tremendous example.
37:21
But also Peter, Peter, to go from like vehement, cursing level denial of Jesus.
37:27
Like when you look at the language used in scripture, you were certainly more of an expert
37:31
at this than me, he wasn't just saying like, no, I don't know that guy.
37:34
He's like, I don't know that guy is essentially what he was saying, like, no, I don't know
37:38
that guy.
37:39
Like get away from me, little girl.
37:40
And to go from that, this level of cowardice and abandonment to this level of boldness.
37:46
Again, if you were to try to steal man and atheist or an agnostic in their position, it
37:51
would be like, okay, these guys had gotten together.
37:54
They knew that their guy was a thorn in the side of Rome in the Sanhedrin and they were
37:59
removed from the equation and they got together for 40 days and they thought, okay, let's
38:03
try to take advantage of this here.
38:05
I don't want to go back.
38:06
I don't want to be a fisherman anymore.
38:07
Like I want to, you know, build a career off of this from now and I want to be taken care
38:11
of by this.
38:12
And it's like, even when you steal man their position, it still seems so foolish.
38:16
And that's, that's what I'm struck by is really the boldness of Peter.
38:19
Why in the world would this be the case considering where he came from?
38:23
Good job, Kyle.
38:24
You nailed it.
38:25
Kyle, you were so smart.
38:27
It's almost as if you can read.
38:28
Go ahead.
38:29
Well, I think, I mean, again, back to the Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised he is empowered
38:33
by the Holy Spirit.
38:34
What a roller coaster of a life.
38:36
Like not only did he deny Christ, he vehemently denied that he would deny.
38:42
I mean, he was put off by Jesus telling him he's like, he's like, wait.
38:46
It's, you're going to tell me that I'm going to, didn't, no way, bro.
38:49
I'm not going to do like he was so put off by that.
38:52
So what a roller coaster ever ride, but then he's into all by the Holy Spirit.
38:56
And obviously that is emboldened him to like, like heal somebody, but speak so humbly that
39:02
there could be no conclusion that this was a work of God or there could be no other conclusion
39:08
if this was the work of God.
39:09
Yeah.
39:10
I, you know, this may be a little bit of a divergence, but this might be a good time to
39:14
talk about the transformation of Peter.
39:17
And like you were saying, Kyle, all these guys showed a transformation and you have
39:21
to explain that somehow.
39:22
But with Peter, it becomes really personal to me.
39:25
So think about what we know about Peter.
39:28
So Peter jumps in, he's, you know, he's got a big personality.
39:31
He leads out of a big personality, but mostly he's leading out of an expectation.
39:36
And that's the expectation that God's finally here to do what I want.
39:40
I've got this idea that Jesus is going to restore our fortunes.
39:43
He's going to be the Messiah.
39:45
And so they move along and he says, I'll never deny you, but then his expectations get dashed.
39:52
And so in the garden, you know, he says, no, okay, this is it.
39:57
We're going to duke it out.
39:58
Jesus says, no, we're not going to do that.
40:00
What?
40:01
You're going to get arrested.
40:02
I'm out of here.
40:03
And he flees.
40:04
He denies Jesus.
40:05
Okay.
40:06
So here's, here's lesson one is Peter was a strong leader, but he was leading out of certain
40:12
set of expectations.
40:14
And when those expectations didn't, didn't come true, he wasn't a leader anymore.
40:20
And so I want to ask you guys a question about that and kind of challenge each of us as husbands
40:26
on that issue is when we lead out of a set of expectations in our marriage in anything,
40:34
you know, lead our children, lead our families out of a series of expectations, I think if
40:39
we aren't careful, we're subject to the same thing, when our families don't meet our expectations,
40:46
do we run?
40:47
Well, society, that's what the statistics say when my marriage doesn't meet my expectations
40:53
anymore.
40:54
I'm out of here.
40:55
I mean, just broad picture.
40:56
What are the statistics saying that even for us or committed that that's not going to
41:00
be what we do.
41:01
Nevertheless, are we still able to lead even when our families don't meet our expectations?
41:07
Terry, did you talk to my wife at lunch or something like that?
41:10
She asked me to bring it up.
41:12
Is this part of the plan from the beginning, Matt?
41:13
Is that, you know, is that why you asked him?
41:15
Come on here.
41:16
Well, so this is what I'll say.
41:17
We have a mole.
41:18
Yeah.
41:19
Yeah.
41:20
We've met them all.
41:21
Come on.
41:22
All right.
41:23
I will say, in all seriousness, that is something, Terry, that I have to really reckon
41:27
with because I have incredibly high expectations for myself and incredibly high expectations
41:33
for the people around me.
41:34
The thing that I'm also, this is probably a good thing is I'm also very clear with people
41:38
as to what my expectations are.
41:40
There's not a whole lot of people that have to wonder, I wonder if Kyle really meant it
41:44
when he said this needs to be done by Thursday at two.
41:46
I wonder, you know, maybe if maybe it's Wednesday at four, like, oh, no, like I'm so very clear
41:50
of my expectations.
41:51
And also I can be very cut and dry about the fact that there are 8 billion people on the
41:55
planet and not all y'all are going to be my friends.
41:57
And so it's like, if you can't live up to this standard, then it's just like, then good.
42:02
Go be mediocre somewhere else, just don't be mediocre around me, which sounds good if
42:07
you're running a fortune 100 company, right?
42:09
It sounds good when you're running a championship level soccer team or baseball team or, you
42:14
know, jujitsu gym or something like that.
42:16
It doesn't work really well when you're doing that with your spouse and with your children.
42:19
Right.
42:20
And so for me, I've had to really prepare and reckon because I got a four-year-old and
42:24
a two-year-old, both sons.
42:26
And my plan is to raise disciples, not athletes.
42:29
Now if they are athletic disciples, even better, life is better when you can throw a ball and
42:33
run fast.
42:34
I promise you.
42:35
But like if I'm focused on them being elite level in areas that don't matter so that I
42:40
can somehow tangentially relate to how good of a man I am or used to be, massive, massive
42:45
problem.
42:46
So that is something that I have to really, really remind myself of on a regular basis
42:50
is, am I trying to get something out of this relationship or am I trying to give something
42:55
to it?
42:56
Does that make sense?
42:57
Exactly.
42:58
And that's Peter.
42:59
We look at Peter and we think, wow, he's a strong leader.
43:02
But when you realize he was leading out of expectations and when they were gone at the
43:07
end, the denying Christ and like Jake was saying, running away, he's not a good leader.
43:12
And I do think that none of us want to be judged that way.
43:16
And when does Peter become a good leader?
43:18
So here's the happy part.
43:19
Now you look at Peter and from now through the rest of his life to a pretty brutal death,
43:25
he's a leader, come what may and now he's leading out of faith.
43:30
He's not leading out of my expectations or just my personality.
43:34
I'm leading out of the faith I have in Jesus Christ and I know that's where we all want
43:39
to be.
43:40
I think that's enduring leadership.
43:41
Something that's been helpful with the relationship with my wife Stacey.
43:46
I think reminding ourselves, I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot.
43:50
We did the Proverbs 31 in our Bible study, this idea that we're described, the church
43:57
is described as the bridegroom of Christ and thinking about what type of expectation Christ
44:07
would put on us and to try and put any sort of the same expectation on my wife.
44:16
But I want to be held to that same expectation by Jesus himself, an expectation I can't live
44:22
up to.
44:23
And so I look at it as, no, I mean, I'm called to love, honor, cherish and respect my wife.
44:32
In a way, I'm called to submit to her as she is called to submit to me.
44:38
Christ is not called to submit to us whatsoever, but we are called to submit to Christ.
44:43
And I do think that that has helped me a lot with my marriage in terms of just, you know,
44:51
it's grace has to abound.
44:53
And we're called to outdo one another with love, like that's a competition you want to
44:58
win, but like you want to win it for the right reasons.
45:00
And yeah, I mean, as a husband, I think my worst days are just like you're saying, if
45:05
I have an expectation, that's not meant.
45:07
And a lot of times it's an expectation that's not communicated and so, you know, you may not
45:13
even be implied.
45:14
Yeah.
45:15
Yeah.
45:16
It's like, man, what am I doing?
45:17
What am I doing?
45:18
Well, I resonate with you, Colin, a great story, true story.
45:22
So my wife and I both worked big corporation and our second child was born.
45:27
She stayed home and came a homemaker raising the kids.
45:31
So my job at that time was executive, big organization, a lot of travel, real intense
45:37
and I'm my nature, kind of like you, Colin, that's like high expectations, that's great
45:41
at business, but then I've come home and I remember, you know, being kind of critical
45:45
feeling like, you know, you're not really performing up to the level you should.
45:50
And I know I was giving off those vibes to her, like, what did you do all day?
45:54
I changed diapers.
45:55
Oh, well, I made $10 million, you know, so that I'm keeping score, but it's one of those
46:01
things.
46:02
And you know, I know that in my mind, I was thinking, man, I may have to put her on a performance
46:05
improvement.
46:07
And you know, I can tell you, you've been there, done that, Colin, but I remember one day,
46:12
she's a very smart, very smart woman.
46:14
She looked at me in one of these things and she must have just had enough.
46:17
And she said, listen, I don't work for you.
46:21
And you know, it hit me like a ton of bricks.
46:22
And I thought, yeah, and I've been treating you like you do.
46:26
And that was not good leadership.
46:28
Well, Terry, we, we lean into our personalities because that's what culture tells us.
46:32
It's like you are a beautiful sunflower, snowflake, like no one else is like you just lean into
46:38
who you are.
46:39
Like it's standpoint of epistemology.
46:41
It's who you were created to be, your immutable characteristics, and you just lean in sister.
46:45
The problem is it's the word that you used earlier personality.
46:48
And so Peter in this section of scripture is not relying on the cult of his personality
46:53
to get across the message.
46:55
And I actually want to talk about that a little bit more because that doesn't mean that if
46:58
you have a big personality, if you have an effective personality, whether for it's for
47:03
podcasting or speaking live or leading an organization, that's not something that you
47:07
put away.
47:08
That's something that you were given as a gift.
47:10
But if you use that gift to crush other people with your personality and expectations or
47:15
to take advantage of them, I mean, look at any cult that's ever happened, has a cult
47:18
ever been ran by somebody that was ugly and had no personality whatsoever?
47:22
Absolutely not.
47:24
These are individuals that were able to be incredibly influential with the way that they
47:28
treated people and manipulated them and those types of things.
47:31
So this section of scripture is helpful to be like use your gifts as gifts for the edification
47:37
of others, right?
47:39
And to point them towards the father, not so that they will be good little worker bees.
47:43
My wife has had the same conversation with me.
47:44
I'll get home from, you know, a guy's weekend or doing a bunch of Jiu Jitsu and she'll just
47:47
be like, Hey, I'm not one of the guys.
47:50
Like you can't, you can't joke with me like, like you do with the boys, like she would,
47:55
she would lose her mind if she saw some of my group texts, right?
47:57
The things that we say to each other that are just absolutely horrific.
48:00
All edifying.
48:01
Yeah, it's all edifying in our own way.
48:03
She would not get it, but I would kind of, you know, leak some of that on to her where
48:07
she was feeling that like kind of ribbing, you know, the one of the guys like, you know,
48:11
that, Hey, you really suck at this kind of a thing, but I'm going to say it out of love,
48:15
like, and that just wasn't really good for her.
48:17
So this is a good reminder for me in this section of scripture.
48:19
I mean, I don't know how it lands with you guys to be like, Hey, personality's fine, but
48:23
just don't lean on that to the detriment of others.
48:25
100%.
48:26
Yep.
48:27
Nailed it.
48:28
You did.
48:29
Well, gosh, darn it.
48:30
Let's go on to the last section.
48:31
Okay.
48:32
All right.
48:33
Whoever wants to read because I forgot who read last.
48:34
If you will read verses 17 through 26, and we'll wrap up our discussion of acts three.
48:38
Does that mean?
48:39
Yeah.
48:40
Matt put that mustache on the mic.
48:41
Let's go 17 through 23.
48:42
So he said, uh, through 26.
48:43
I think I said 23, but yeah, just through, through the end.
48:46
Yeah.
48:47
And now brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance as did also your rulers.
48:50
But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets that his Christ would suffer be thus
48:55
fulfilled, repent therefore, and turn back that your sins may be blotted out.
49:00
That times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord and that he may send the
49:05
Christ appointed for you Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring of
49:11
all things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
49:16
Moses said, the Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers.
49:20
You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.
49:23
And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that, listen to that prophets shall
49:28
be destroyed from the people and all the prophets who have spoken from Samuel and those who came
49:33
after him also for claim these days.
49:36
You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your father saying
49:41
to Abraham and in your offspring shall, shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
49:48
And having raised up his servant, sent him to you first to bless you by turning everyone
49:53
of you from your wickedness.
49:55
Wow.
49:56
Sorry.
49:57
Joby.
49:58
Don't tell Terry.
49:59
He said right here though, he heard every last bit of that.
50:01
You doing okay?
50:02
All right.
50:03
Okay.
50:04
I just want to make sure you're not having a stroke.
50:05
No, you're normally really good.
50:06
So that you know, every now and then you can like not have a great outing out of the bullpen.
50:09
But I feel like there's a lot here of 17 through the end.
50:13
So I just want to know, open it up to you guys because there's a couple of things I want
50:16
to get into, but I'm curious what y'all had on this section.
50:19
I think the first thing was Peter kind of referencing the ignorance of them, like you
50:26
were ignorant of Jesus being who he was, but also not excusing it.
50:34
I think there's a lot of times where people will be like, well, I didn't, I didn't know,
50:40
you know, or, you know, what about the people who don't know Christ?
50:43
And I think it's, or never heard of him, like what happens to them is that fair.
50:48
And it's like, well, actually everybody, it's all written on our heart.
50:52
You know.
50:53
And I think the other thing that's interesting about this is he's speaking to extremely devout
51:00
men here, okay, they know the prophecies.
51:04
They know these things, but for whatever reason fought against it because they had a picture
51:13
of what that was versus what God intended.
51:19
And I think it's a good reminder.
51:21
I think as we look at the scriptures, even to try not to read it, try not to read too
51:28
much of yourself into it, or your desires, you know, not to, you know, the, you are not
51:35
David keeps ringing in my ears right now, but don't read it in that way.
51:40
This is, this is a story of God and this is his story, you know, not ours.
51:46
Well, and ignorance can't be an excuse because you knew better.
51:49
I kind of, I think, I think of my, my two kids, I've got a nine year old and a four year old.
51:53
There's obviously different levels of understanding.
51:55
There's a huge gap there.
51:57
And you know, we'll sometimes have conversations with Traford, well, they'll be doing something
52:02
and our four year old, Holland will do something and so he'll follow suit.
52:06
And it's obviously like, okay, a four year old, she doesn't know any better for this
52:09
specific thing, you're nine, you do, he's like, well, I didn't know.
52:12
She was doing it was like, ignorance is not really an excuse here, because you do know
52:17
because you're nine.
52:18
And you've heard us say that before, you know, all of these things, that's kind of what comes
52:21
to mind when I hear when I'm reading this, like they knew because they had the profits.
52:25
They read it all.
52:26
They should have known.
52:27
Well, not that I wrote the same thing for verse 17, it's still not ultimately a good
52:30
excuse.
52:31
Like, cause that doesn't work with a cop.
52:32
You're driving through seats.
52:33
Like, oh, I didn't know that was a speed limit.
52:34
It's like, you know, well, that's, that's, that's kind of one of my bugaboos and there's
52:38
been some things that have come up that I don't really want to get into the details
52:40
because it doesn't matter.
52:41
But like when Americans go to other countries and expect them to follow by American rules,
52:46
dictates and laws, it's like, I get it, we're the dominant hegemonic, you know, country
52:52
when it comes to just about everything and we have our own gravitational pull.
52:55
But when you go to a different sovereign country or territory, you should not expect
52:59
for them to just be like, Oh, you're American will hear you just tell us how we should operate.
53:03
Right.
53:04
Like you may think the law is dumb, but it's their law.
53:07
And if you live there, you would have a hand in changing that law or electing new leaders
53:11
to get the laws out of there.
53:12
So that's, that's just kind of a personal bugaboo.
53:14
But I thought it was interesting in verse 19, where it talks about repentance and it's
53:18
saying, okay, repentance brings about three things, forgiveness of sins, times of refreshing
53:23
and, you know, so God will send Christ back.
53:26
But the other thing that I think is important, and I think this is especially important for
53:30
people that have a long track record of very varsity sins.
53:34
So this could be people that are in prison or people that had tremendous sexual deviance
53:39
in their past or something like that.
53:41
Whenever it talks about blotting out the sin, repent therefore and turn back that your sins
53:45
may be blotted out.
53:47
One of the commentaries I read said, this means removed completely and it even removes
53:52
the stain of the sin, the stain.
53:55
And we've all been there, whether it's, you know, on a couch or, you know, your favorite
53:59
baseball pants or whatever, you wash them, you use all the different things, you know,
54:03
use the shamwow on and you use the oxy clean and guess what, that stain is still there.
54:08
So you always have the remnant of the thing that happened previously.
54:12
But when you truly repent, even the remnant is gone.
54:16
But I feel like I've ran into a lot of Christians that become crippled by their former lives
54:20
at different points.
54:21
And so they are now new creation in Christ, but maybe it's a person or it's an experience
54:26
or it's some sort of memory triggered to where it takes them right back to when they were
54:30
acting out sexually or when they were being violent or when they were using drugs or when
54:34
they were doing something like that, I feel like that affects way more people than it
54:37
should in light of what we see here in the scripture.
54:39
I agree.
54:40
I think one of the things I wrote down here was when Christ died, when the work done on
54:46
the cross, God stopped writing our sins in pin and started writing them in pencil.
54:55
They can be erased.
54:56
They are erased in the death of Jesus.
55:00
I think the idea that there is, there's one unforgivable sin.
55:08
We talked about it last week.
55:09
There's one unforgivable sin that's the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit.
55:15
That's a very short list.
55:16
All the other ones can be forgiven.
55:19
You're not too far gone and to your point, Kyle, yeah, crippling yourself by the life
55:23
that you once left that somehow God has decided that you're just worse than everybody else
55:31
and there's no hope for you.
55:32
It's not the case.
55:33
Yeah, but the opposite can be true of that as well.
55:36
If you grow up and you've not ever done some of the quote unquote varsity sins, I think
55:39
sometimes you can lull yourself to sleep thinking, "Wow, you know, I'm good.
55:44
Amen.
55:45
I don't need a Savior.
55:46
I've never killed anybody and that's not a good place to be either because sin is a
55:52
sin.
55:53
They really matter like they all need to be blotted out."
55:55
Yeah, I think Kyle touched on a really good point there.
55:59
Let me connect verse 19 with something we talked about in our last podcast in chapter
56:03
2.
56:04
We had repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.
56:07
Here you just see repent, by the way, but you do get this sense of turning around, turning
56:12
and change.
56:13
One of the reasons I see just speaking pastorally that people struggle with the idea that the
56:18
stain's still there, you know, I understand we washed the clothes, but the stain's still
56:23
there is the thought that becoming a Christian puts you on a new path.
56:29
That's true, but it's deeper than that.
56:31
As Paul says in Romans chapter 6, and I would suggest anybody struggling with this to read
56:36
Romans chapter 6, "When you were baptized with Christ, your old self died with Christ.
56:42
You were raised to walk in newness of life.
56:45
It's not that you were put through the washing machine.
56:49
You actually died and have been reborn."
56:51
And so that's how you can say you're no longer a slave to sin.
56:55
You're still tempted by sin, you're still drawn to sin, but you're no longer a slave
57:00
to sin like you were saying, Kyle, the stain's gone.
57:03
This is a brand new pair of pants.
57:05
So let me ask you that and maybe we can wrap up with this question.
57:09
So scenario, so I'm thinking about someone in particular, they become a Christian and
57:15
their sinful lifestyle in a very deleterious category began after that time.
57:22
So here's the time when they became a Christian and during that process of reconciliation,
57:26
they go off the deep end.
57:27
And specifically the person I'm thinking about, their sin was sexual.
57:30
And so sexual sin, for whatever reason, was their biggest hang up for a very, very long
57:35
time, they go a while without having that hang up and then it just comes back.
57:40
And so this person as they were describing their situation to me, it's like, I guess
57:44
that's just who I am.
57:46
I guess even as a Christian, even though my identity is found in Christ, this is also
57:52
my identity.
57:53
Like this is my chosen sin because some people have no pull towards sexual sin, but their
57:57
sin is more chemical, right?
57:59
So where if they drink or smoke or do any of those types of things, that's going to be
58:02
what gets them.
58:03
Other people, it's manipulation and lying and that's what they're drawn to.
58:07
So we all have our particular flavor of sin that works within our psyche.
58:11
But what would you say to someone like that who's sinful behavior in one of these categories
58:15
occurred post their salvation and they keep finding themselves in the reconciliation process
58:21
falling back to that original identity of sin?
58:24
Yeah.
58:25
I think the way we would look at that from a biblical point of view is this is something
58:29
that you're holding on to.
58:30
You just have not given God the authority over it.
58:34
My suggestion for people to pray and the way I pray is less, God, give me more patience,
58:38
God, keep me from doing this or help me to not want to do that, but God, what's behind
58:43
this?
58:44
I want to crucify my pride.
58:45
I want to crucify my fundamental desires.
58:47
I want to crucify the idea that I can be fulfilled in this sexual thing as opposed to
58:53
you.
58:54
I think there's something that we're holding onto there that we've yet to lay at the foot
58:58
of Christ.
58:59
I'm not saying to you that you can lay at the foot of Christ and you'll never be tempted
59:03
again.
59:04
That's not my point.
59:05
But my point is, is if you say, well, I'm tempted, I give in, must just be who I am.
59:10
Must just be something you're holding on to that we have not yet crucified.
59:14
Yeah, that's certainly not biblical.
59:16
That's not who you are.
59:17
Well, everything that God creates state and counterfeits.
59:21
And so when when I talk and I didn't come up with that quote, not sure who came up with
59:24
that quote, but I remember speaking in front of these, you know, in front of these groups
59:27
of men, and I'll say something like that, but then if I get blank stares, then I'll use
59:31
an example and I will ask them how many colors are there in the rainbow?
59:35
And they'll just say seven.
59:36
You know, Roy G. Biv.
59:37
What is that?
59:38
Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo violet, right?
59:40
So seven, how many stripes are on the pride flag?
59:43
Six.
59:44
Six.
59:45
But when you look at the pride flag real quickly, you think rainbow, no, the rainbow, the symbol
59:49
of the rainbow has been co-opted by a satanic movement.
59:53
And you know, again, it's, it's a counterfeit of the real thing.
59:57
But societally, we have accepted the lie.
59:59
We've taken it hook line and sinker.
1:00:01
The same would be true whenever it's like, yes, that is who you were, but you're not
1:00:06
lost in your sins and trespasses.
1:00:09
You are not slave to them, but Satan would love for you to think so.
1:00:13
Because in that he can control you, whenever I do my abortion presentation, I do the presentation
1:00:18
called destroying abortion arguments or, you know, defeating pro-abortion arguments.
1:00:24
The way that I start that presentation is there is therefore now no condemnation for
1:00:28
those who are in Christ Jesus.
1:00:29
And the reason why I go there is because it's like there are women in the crowd that have
1:00:32
had abortions or a men in the crowd that have paid for abortions.
1:00:35
There are grandparents in the crowd that is opposed to having an awkward conversation
1:00:37
with the pastors down at the church.
1:00:38
They paid 500 bucks for their daughter's problem to go away.
1:00:41
I know that's there in the crowd.
1:00:43
I also know that Satan will not allow them to listen to me.
1:00:47
If they have shame stuffed in both of their ears.
1:00:50
And so I right from the beginning say, if you expected me to get up here and rail against
1:00:53
you and call you out and bring, you know, heaps of shame on top of you, know that that's
1:00:57
not going to happen.
1:00:58
Because I know you are currently operating in that level of shame now.
1:01:01
And whenever I did that speech in Jacksonville, at church of 1122, I got a message before
1:01:06
I got back to my hotel room.
1:01:08
And it was from a woman that was at the speech and she was 49 years old.
1:01:13
And she said at the age of 17, she had an abortion and she had been living in shame that
1:01:17
entire time until she came to my speech, which is nothing magical about what I said, mind
1:01:23
you, it wasn't just the, you know, the tremendous value I was able to bring with my way of argumentation.
1:01:28
It was like, no, I have allowed Satan to define me by my lowest moment and define me by the
1:01:34
murder that I chose to allow to happen.
1:01:37
And it wasn't until you said the way that you said that I felt like the Holy Spirit communicated
1:01:41
to me that I don't have to operate out of my shame.
1:01:44
And so that would be my message to all of you listening to this right now.
1:01:46
We all have our certain level of shame for, for some of you, your varsity sins seem a
1:01:51
whole lot worse than other people.
1:01:52
But guess what?
1:01:53
I've spent time in prison with guys that will never see the outside of a jail cell.
1:01:57
And they found Christ in prison after they did the worst things that they could ever possibly
1:02:01
imagine doing to include rape, to include pedophilia, to include murder.
1:02:06
And yet they are not defining themselves by the worst things that they've ever done.
1:02:09
They are defining themselves by who Christ says that they are, who God says that they
1:02:13
are in Christ rather.
1:02:14
So before we wrap up, is there anything else on Acts three before we get out of here?
1:02:18
All right, guys, got a little excited there at the end, you know, just kind of how it
1:02:21
goes sometimes, but we will leave it there and we will get into Acts four next week.
1:02:26
So guys, make sure you're read all the way through Acts four.
1:02:29
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
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us to use their music for our content.
1:03:44
The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album
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on Face Down Records.
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The links are in the description.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Remember keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
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You're seeking the lion of Judah.