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1:18
Welcome back to the Forging Table.
1:26
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:29
forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:32
At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys foraging spiritual resilience
1:35
by digging into God's Word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with
1:38
us.
1:39
That's Browning, that's Horn.
1:40
And Jay, you're with us for one more week, so we really, really appreciate your time with
1:43
us.
1:44
And here's the thing.
1:45
We're going to get into Acts 20.
1:47
So we were talking about this off air a little bit, and we talked a little bit last week
1:51
about how certain churches do evangelism and how certain churches do altar calls and
1:57
how they count salvations and different things like that.
2:00
But as with most roads on this podcast, things always somehow lead to tulip and the five points
2:05
of Calvinism and all that.
2:07
But the reason why I wanted to bring this up is because I have been asked a lot by people
2:11
outside of our church, but also by people inside of our church, where does Mark Land
2:16
on the five points of Calvinism?
2:17
So for those of you not familiar, that is tea.
2:19
This is too.
2:20
T total depravity, you unconditional election, L limited atonement, I irresistible grace and
2:26
P perseverance of the saints.
2:29
And so I always forget like where Mark has said publicly that he's a landed.
2:33
So we're not doing any inside baseball right here.
2:35
But I've heard him say he's like four and a half point Calvinist or something like that.
2:40
But maybe like over time, he's, I hate using a word of ball because people usually use
2:44
that to squish their way out of a bad situation.
2:47
But like since you are here representing all the faith Bible church and you can't get anything
2:51
any of the answers wrong, where would you say that that mark lands are really the church
2:55
larger lands on that?
2:56
Yeah.
2:57
I mean, I'm not going to, I'm not going to speak for Mark, but I'll speak of my experience
3:02
with Mark.
3:03
How about that?
3:04
That'll work.
3:05
So I would, he's a four point Calvinist.
3:06
The limited atonement piece would be the point he takes issue with.
3:11
And so as a theological system, he would, he would agree that the system works reasonably
3:23
with all four, five points intact, but from a biblical perspective, from a textual perspective,
3:28
he has trouble with the limited atonement point.
3:32
So that's kind of his approach to it.
3:34
Yes, as a theological system, Calvinism makes sense, but from a scriptural perspective,
3:39
he doesn't see where the L, the limited atonement or particular atonement piece has much evidence.
3:46
So Mark's a four point, I'm probably more of a four and a half kind of came to the church
3:50
as a five pointer, but have softened a little bit, maybe through his influence.
3:55
The church and its Genesis, if you go back to 1980 with Russ McKnight as the pastor,
4:00
it was 10 point Calvinist, Calvinism in every message, kind of an overdose of it a bit as
4:05
I would say, but yeah, I think as a whole, you're going to get a high view of God's sovereignty,
4:11
you're going to get the truth of the New Testament old when it comes to divine election.
4:16
But then there's some range of interpretation regarding atonement.
4:20
All right.
4:21
I'm going to let Browning talk first, since Ryan wanted to hop in there.
4:24
Do you want to say anything?
4:25
Yeah.
4:26
So just clarifying, just in case people don't fully understand that.
4:30
So on the limited atonement, then what you're saying is that Christ died for everyone, but
4:38
it's only applied to the ones that are going to believe in him.
4:41
Is that correct?
4:42
Yeah.
4:43
This sufficiency, efficiency approach would say, yeah, Christ blood is sufficient to save
4:47
every single person who's ever lived, but it's only efficient and saving the elect is one
4:52
way of communicating that.
4:54
What's the difference between a four and a four point five?
4:58
Where does that, what's the split in hairs on that?
5:02
Good question.
5:03
It's probably means different things to different people.
5:05
I think the, obviously the five pointer would say Christ's blood was only shed for the elect.
5:17
So his sacrifice was particularly applied to only God's elect to where the four pointer
5:27
would say, well, his blood was shed for everyone, for the whole world.
5:32
And that's kind of where the sufficient, efficient sort of middle ground comes from.
5:36
Yeah, we want to, we don't want to minimize Christ atonement.
5:39
It's sufficient to save every single person, but we don't want to be accused of double
5:44
enmity that that somehow Christ was punished for the sins of the non-elect and then their
5:50
sins were also punished eternally in hell or are going to be punished eternally in hell.
5:55
So probably the, depending on who you ask, four point, four and a half point, five point
6:02
might have different interpretations.
6:04
But I think the sufficient, efficient conversation is probably where the middle ground is.
6:11
When that's where I've asked people before, because I've heard people use a lot of different
6:14
ways to describe it, but it was like, okay, if I were to make you a present, it's a custom
6:19
knife, it's beautifully made, all of its handmade and all this type of stuff, and I offer it
6:23
to you as a gift.
6:25
It's not in that moment, yours, it's only yours whenever you choose to take possession
6:29
of it.
6:30
And this really gets into the sovereignty of God versus, you know, I guess it's sovereignty
6:34
versus free will, like how much free will do we have there?
6:37
Because when people say it is irresistible, like you can't resist it, then I mean, then
6:41
to me, that means that I was wired to do that all up, you know, a robot or an automaton
6:47
as C.S. Lewis maybe talked about in mere Christianity to where like a world full of automatons is
6:52
not a world worth creating.
6:53
Now, C.S. Lewis's point was he had to give us the capacity for love.
6:58
And so in giving us the capacity for love, there had to be free will because love that
7:02
is compelled is not love.
7:04
You cannot freely give love if you're compelled to do so.
7:07
And that's where a lot of people may include to get hung up to where it's like, okay, if
7:10
it's irresistible, that means it cannot be resisted, then that means I was wired to accept
7:16
it, which also means that people were wired specifically to reject it.
7:20
And that's where people get kind of messed up.
7:22
But yeah, I don't have as much heartburn over the limited atonement part because literally
7:27
it's like, I think the example I worked out is like, okay, if because someone was using
7:31
a Chick-fil-A example, like whenever, yeah, Joby was using a Chick-fil-A example to where
7:34
it's like, you know, if we buy enough chicken sandwiches for everybody, you know, we didn't
7:40
buy chicken sandwiches for everybody, we bought chicken sandwiches for the people that would
7:43
come and get the chicken sandwich.
7:44
And I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
7:46
It's like there's there are eight billion people on the planet.
7:49
What we're saying is there are eight billion available Chick-fil-A sandwiches, but the only
7:52
people that get to eat them are the ones that come and get it, right?
7:55
And so it's like they're available, but they're not being forced down, down everyone's throat.
8:00
They're not able to, they are able to resist it.
8:03
I guess is what we're saying.
8:04
Go ahead, Ryan.
8:05
You've been ditto dabbling over there, getting your arguments ready.
8:08
Here we go.
8:09
You always throw election at me.
8:10
We are like anything Calvinism.
8:11
It's his internal smell.
8:12
Yeah.
8:13
He like never gives me a heads up.
8:14
He's just like, I want to throw it.
8:15
You're always ready.
8:16
What are you talking about that?
8:17
Just to go back on Joby's story, what he said is I put a coupon in the newspaper for free
8:24
Chick-fil-A sandwich.
8:26
When it comes down to it, Chick-fil-A doesn't come back to me and say, hey, I need you
8:31
to pay for everybody in the United States Chick-fil-A sandwich.
8:34
No, he only has to pay for whoever used a coupon.
8:38
And so my question is, I dealt with the same thing as you guys dealt with in regards to
8:43
Calvinism because I was totally hung up on limited atonement, but it was hard for me
8:47
to, once you understand unconditional election, to not take limited atonement with it.
8:53
Because if I believe that Christ elected or got elected from the beginning, then the
8:59
people sent for that Christ died on the cross.
9:02
It was to atone the elect.
9:05
And so like, yeah, do I think it's sufficient for all?
9:07
Yeah, probably it definitely is, but that's not how the story, that's not how it started
9:12
from the beginning.
9:13
That's a hung up that I have.
9:16
Well, I totally understand your hang up.
9:19
And the four-point approach says, yes, as a logical conclusion to unconditional election
9:25
and total depravity and the other points, yeah, limited atonement makes actually sense.
9:30
From a scriptural defense, where do we find that?
9:35
And so you're trying to argue from something, yeah, there you go.
9:39
See?
9:40
Well, John Gill in one of his volumes, he's an old Baptist preacher from England, 17th
9:46
century, 18th century.
9:48
He has the cause of God and truth, I think is the name of the book.
9:52
And the opening a few chapters are a response to every Armenian argument that you can find
10:01
in the Olden New Testament and the Calvinistic response.
10:04
So I need to get that book to you.
10:05
Yeah, you need to get that.
10:06
How are you?
10:07
Get a signed copy for him.
10:08
Okay.
10:09
Is he still alive?
10:10
Yeah.
10:11
If you're finding a signed copy, I'll trade you a bottle of clothes.
10:14
It's a duplicate.
10:15
I think he's never been more motivated in his life.
10:20
Done.
10:21
Done.
10:22
Let's make that happen.
10:23
Okay.
10:24
We can keep this going or we can dig into Acts 20?
10:25
I mean, you guys, you're just five pointers and you don't know it.
10:29
So I love the cockshardness of every Calvinist on the planet.
10:34
It's like, look, I'm better than you.
10:35
You just don't know it yet.
10:36
I didn't say it.
10:37
I didn't say it was better.
10:38
That's what you were saying.
10:39
That was the subtext of what you were saying.
10:40
So let's get into the text.
10:41
I like to be able to glean from you and Mark on that.
10:44
Maybe you can soften me a little bit.
10:46
Well, you know, everybody leaves the cage stage eventually.
10:49
I have left the cage.
10:50
Some spend more time there.
10:51
No.
10:52
You claim that you have and then you still get by who almost quit the forging table because
10:55
of it.
10:56
Okay.
10:57
And we got to bring that up.
10:58
That was not anything to do with.
10:59
It was my pride.
11:00
My pride got ahead of me.
11:01
Well, you know, I had to I had to reach out to Adam Smith.
11:03
I had a repent of my pride.
11:05
Well, it's very prideful.
11:06
Yeah, I just kind of brought it up somewhat tongue and cheek.
11:08
But what what we experienced that day, there were so many interesting things that happened
11:13
with that.
11:14
Because I can't even remember what what text we were going over.
11:16
I can't remember if you were an ax or a Matthew or a Matthew and I didn't even have anything
11:20
my notes about Calvinism or election.
11:22
And so we we had a discussion.
11:24
It was me and Adam, you and somebody else, I can't remember not that they're not important.
11:27
We just can't remember.
11:29
And you were very fired up and mad afterwards.
11:31
The interesting thing about it is Joby said, Kyle, that was the best episode of the forging
11:36
table that y'all have ever done and we're a year and a half into this of weekly episodes.
11:40
And he said, the reason was, is because y'all had a very healthy debate, a very robust,
11:45
healthy debate.
11:46
And it seemed like y'all all left good and on good terms and nobody was super mad.
11:51
And I was like, on contrary, Mr. Horn left very, very angry.
11:55
But the thing is, is you didn't leave it there.
11:58
And so a lot of guys would let their anger take them into a rash decision that now they're
12:02
going to double down on even if they realize it was a stupid decision, which is not what
12:06
you did.
12:07
So I want you to kind of describe, take it from when you left my house and you weren't
12:10
happy because I think this is a very good learning opportunity for the guys in our audience.
12:14
I left.
12:15
I was, yeah, we shook hands and everything.
12:17
I don't think you guys could tell I was angry.
12:19
No, it's not to my knowledge.
12:20
I didn't want to show it.
12:21
I was, I was mad mainly because it seemed like you were mad in the moment.
12:25
We didn't notice it when you're.
12:26
Yeah, I was mad in the moment because it blindsided me with it.
12:30
If I knew it was like none of my notes had anything to do about election, which is exactly
12:33
what I had.
12:34
So I feel blindsided and then you and Adam always hit me with these like questions, questions
12:38
that are like like a frickin marvel.
12:40
It's like it's like these Marvel movie questions is like, well, if we lived in this kind of
12:45
world or, you know, like if those are fun, it's the Iron Man went around the world many
12:50
times when we got back through time, like we live in this generation, like, it's like,
12:53
no, man, these are all like hypotheticals.
12:55
Right.
12:56
I freaking hate hypotheticals.
12:57
They're the best.
12:58
Well, let me give you a hypothetical right now.
12:59
I'm kidding.
13:00
Keep going.
13:01
Keep going.
13:02
So it's hypothetical conversation.
13:03
I get annoyed.
13:04
Um, and they're the same questions you guys ask me even when we're outside having cigars
13:09
and, and, uh, scotch.
13:11
And so it's just like, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse when you guys keep asking me the
13:15
same questions.
13:16
So I left, I left angry.
13:17
I was mad.
13:18
I actually told my wife is like, I'm done with the fortune table.
13:19
Like I'm not coming back.
13:20
She's like, why?
13:21
And I was like, just cause like I, I, I'm very much a Calvinist, but like, I don't know,
13:27
I don't know if it's noticeable and I, and I hope, I hope it is, but like I'm not trying
13:31
to make everything that I read, and we talk about, about Calvinism because I, there's
13:35
so much more to the Bible than just Calvinism.
13:38
And so, and, and, and I don't want to make, I don't want to turn people away from reading
13:42
the Bible if they disagree with what I say, you know, um, do I think Calvin is Calvinist
13:47
and our minions are going to be in heaven together?
13:49
Of course.
13:50
Are we going to high five each other?
13:51
Yes, we are.
13:52
And one of us is going to be right, you know, but I don't think that's the point.
13:55
And so I was very angry.
13:57
I was really mad about it, but it was also my pride.
14:00
And it was just me being like, you know what?
14:02
And it was with Adam because Adam, Adam, I love Adam.
14:05
I love him a lot.
14:06
Like he and I have been through battle with you and everything.
14:09
And I just had this thing where like he and I will teach at our, our, our, our Sunday
14:14
school.
14:15
There it is.
14:16
He and I will teach at our Sunday school and like, he's like, Hey man, I want to do Calvinism
14:21
or mini-nism.
14:22
Like you do Calvinism.
14:23
I'll do our mini-nism.
14:24
So we're always butting heads there.
14:25
And he's like, I'm going to do egalitarianism.
14:27
You do complimentarianism.
14:28
And so we like butt heads there and so it's just like, we were just kind of like, you
14:32
know, we're like trying to outdo each other.
14:34
And so like, and sometimes like, you know, I don't know what he's doing.
14:36
He's a tax guy.
14:37
So he could be working, but sometimes you don't see him in group blood, you know, or I don't
14:40
see him at church a lot.
14:42
And so I'm just like, I got very fair, Sakele in my mind.
14:45
Like who's that guy to question me?
14:47
You know, like he doesn't know what I know, you know, like I highly doubt he even reads,
14:51
you know what I'm saying?
14:52
Like, and like, I'm getting very fair, Sakele, very prideful.
14:56
And I'm becoming a legalist with something I despise.
15:00
And it's all in my own heart.
15:01
Like, I'm not saying this to anybody else.
15:03
I'm not, I didn't even say it to my wife, you know, but I'm feeling this in my heart.
15:06
And like, God, just like was like, Hey, man, like you sound horrible right now and you
15:13
need to repent and not just to me, but you need to go and pull your brother aside.
15:19
And so I hit him up as like, Hey, can we grab some coffee?
15:22
He's like, what's this about?
15:23
I was like, just something he'd get off my chest, so we got off, go out for coffee.
15:26
I just kind of laid out to him and was like, man, I left there very angry.
15:29
And he goes, I actually felt bad about that because it felt like three on one.
15:33
And I was like, Hey man, it's cool.
15:34
It's one under the bridge.
15:35
But I was like, I had a very pridefulness in my heart and like a fair, Sakele attitude
15:39
towards you as a person.
15:41
And I was like, God had to get me in line and check with that.
15:44
And he did.
15:45
And I'm here to apologize and ask for your forgiveness and just repent of that.
15:50
He's like, Hey man, that means a lot.
15:51
So we discussed that and like, you know, Adam and I are good.
15:54
But like man, like we as people can just deal with that, you know, like I'm not perfect.
15:59
I'm a horrible person.
16:00
I am the teat capital T of total depravity, you know, and that's what I haven't understand
16:05
is I'm just as depraved as the next guy.
16:07
And so I have to be able to not only like catch that depravity and not only myself but
16:12
somebody else, but also like help them get into a place where I'm at, whether that's
16:15
me repenting to him, you know, and he's seeing that from some another brother or other brother
16:20
seeing me do that.
16:21
And so that's just where it's just like, I was going to leave the fortune table, but
16:25
it wasn't because of anything these guys did.
16:27
I was going to leave because I was a prideful idiot.
16:31
And I'm glad that God got me in shape because there's no place I'd rather be than sitting
16:35
here at this table with you guys at least four weeks out of the month.
16:38
So or four hours, four hours.
16:41
Yeah, sorry.
16:42
You were.
16:43
That would be quite the commitment.
16:44
Yeah.
16:45
You know, four weeks out a month.
16:46
Yeah.
16:47
You were destined to stay.
16:48
I was predestined.
16:49
It's predestined.
16:50
Where you just say destined.
16:51
Yeah.
16:52
That's a good word though.
16:53
Appreciation.
16:54
No problem.
16:55
Yeah.
16:56
Yep.
16:57
Well guys, let's go and dig into Acts 20.
16:58
So Mr. Browning.
16:59
Yes.
17:00
If you would start us off.
17:01
Let's read the first six verses.
17:02
Acts 20.
17:03
Roger.
17:04
After the uproar ceased, Paul sent for the disciples and after encouraging them, he said
17:09
farewell and departed from Macedonia.
17:12
When he had gone through those regions and had given them much encouragement, he came
17:17
to Greece.
17:18
There he spent three months and went a plot was made against him by the Jews as he was
17:23
about to set sail for Syria.
17:26
He decided to return through Macedonia.
17:29
So Peter, the Berean, son of Pyrus, Pyrus, we'll go with it, accompanied him.
17:38
And of the Thessalonians, Aristarchus, and Secundus, and Gaius, Evderbe, and Timothy,
17:45
and the Asians, Tikka-Kas, and Trophamis.
17:49
Nailed it.
17:50
Man.
17:51
Very good.
17:52
These went on ahead and were waiting for us at Troas, but we sailed away from Philippi
17:55
after the days of Unleavened Bread.
17:57
And in five days, we came to them at Troas where we stayed for seven days.
18:04
I'm just going to be real honest.
18:05
Every time I read this section, I was just really thrilled to get done with it.
18:08
And so I don't have a whole lot to add.
18:10
So if anybody has something on the first six verses, I'm just really good.
18:13
You nailed Tikka-Kas, man.
18:14
I was very, very, I was waiting for it.
18:16
And then you just, yeah, gosh, man, just put it on a T.
18:18
But you have to read that.
18:19
Man.
18:20
Hey, see, I do you a favor every now and then, like, gosh, that would have been like t-tot
18:23
dirt bar.
18:24
But anybody got anything on the first six verses without objection, objection, consent has
18:31
been heard.
18:32
Guys, let's keep this rolling.
18:33
Let's go seven through 16.
18:35
We're kind of going to get into a discussion about miracles here.
18:37
So Pastor Reisner, how about you go ahead and hit seven through 16?
18:41
Yes, sir.
18:42
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began
18:45
talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.
18:50
There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together.
18:53
And there was a young man named Euticus sitting on the window sill, sinking into a deep sleep.
18:58
And as Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor
19:02
and was picked up dead.
19:03
But Paul went down and fell upon him.
19:05
And after embracing him, he said, "Do not be troubled, for his life is in him."
19:09
When he had gone back up and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them along
19:12
a while until daybreak, and then he left.
19:15
They took away the boy alive and were greatly comforted.
19:18
But we, going ahead to the ship, set sail for Essos, intending from there to take Paul
19:23
on board for so he had arranged it, intending himself to go by land.
19:28
And when he met us at Essos, we took him on board and came to Middle-Een.
19:33
Sailing from there, we arrived the following day, opposite Chios, and the next day we crossed
19:38
over to Samos, and the day followed when we came to my lead us.
19:42
For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to spend time in
19:46
Asia, for he was hurrying to be in Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.
19:51
So interesting thing here is if you're a pastor, you could be setting people up for
19:56
death if you're boring, because they may fall out of a window that is the ultimate message
20:01
here.
20:02
Like, my goodness, this is why your grandparents would knock you on your shins whenever you
20:05
would be falling asleep in churches, because you could eventually die, boys and girls.
20:09
But luckily, he was there to bring him back to life.
20:12
And so right here, I wanted to basically talk about miracles.
20:15
I wanted to talk about it from the beginning, but we got off on other subjects, because
20:19
this is clearly a miracle.
20:21
It's a miracle that takes about 45 seconds to read, but it's a miracle nonetheless.
20:25
And this is where people get into a discussion about, okay, if these miracles in the Bible
20:30
were real, why don't we see them today?
20:33
So hey, I would believe if I saw a miracle, leaving aside the fact that they probably
20:37
still wouldn't, they would try to explain it away anyway, that they could explain it
20:41
away.
20:42
But I will say for me, after 38 years of life, I have not seen a miracle.
20:46
I have not looked at something and said that is a miracle.
20:49
However, I've heard about some.
20:51
So recently, there was a member of a church whose wife saw my story to tell.
20:56
So I'm not going to give the details, but this member of a, of a staff at a church, his
21:00
wife had stage four cancer.
21:02
They go from my wife's perfectly healthy, everything's fine.
21:05
They go to the doctor stage four.
21:07
A few weeks later, they go back to the doctor, no cancer.
21:12
And where she got tested for cancer, this is not a place that makes mistakes like that.
21:16
Oh, we said, yeah, cancer, whoopsies, we actually didn't, we got your file mixed up with somebody
21:19
else.
21:20
It's one of the most reputable medical brands on the planet.
21:23
I'll put it that way.
21:24
And so the people at this clinic, the doctors, the oncologists are like, we have no explanation
21:30
for this in science.
21:31
The only word we can use to describe it is miracle.
21:34
Now that didn't happen to me.
21:36
It didn't happen to my wife.
21:38
I heard about it secondhand.
21:39
And so I've heard a lot of stories of miracles that are secondhand stories, but I personally
21:42
have not seen it.
21:43
And so I, I understand and I can level with an atheist or an agnostic that's just like,
21:48
man, I just don't see these, these miracles, everything that happens, it seems like a miracle
21:51
has an explanation.
21:53
Even if these oncologists aren't good enough to explain what happened, there is a medical
21:57
explanation for that.
21:58
And so I don't know what it's been like for you guys or Jay, obviously being in ministry
22:02
for this length of time, it seems like every pastor seems to have a miracle story or two.
22:06
But you know, I feel the consternation that people feel about miracles.
22:10
I remember being in, on a mission trip in Europe and we were playing football against
22:18
club teams.
22:19
And so we were out practicing and so that what would happen is we'd go out to football or
22:23
football, football, American football, and we go out to do our practice and we'd basically
22:29
a crowd would, would, would, would be people watching us could be interesting, interested
22:36
in seeing what we were doing, but, and remember, we were actually en route.
22:40
I think we were just walking from our hotel to a local field and there were some people
22:44
that were following us, one kid on a bike particular, particularly, and we crossed the
22:50
street.
22:51
He was behind us.
22:52
And all of a sudden, man, we hear screeching of tires and watch this kid get smashed by
22:57
this, by the car, I mean, he has crushed.
23:02
And of course, people run over to help him physically, but he's clearly not good.
23:07
And our group gets around and stands around him in a circle while they're working with
23:11
them and pray over him, the dude gets up two minutes later and walks away.
23:16
I was just like, what just happened?
23:18
Now, did we have x-rays showing broken bones?
23:21
Did he have, you know, bleeding that stopped?
23:23
No, but I will say that in that moment, it was clearly clear that something was significant
23:27
and wrong, and then praying over this kid and he gets up and walks away.
23:31
I was like, pretty amazing.
23:33
Well, God absolutely can heal people.
23:36
Yeah.
23:37
So miracles.
23:38
I mean, we pray for miracle.
23:39
Every time I get sick, I pray for a miracle because I don't like to be sick.
23:42
So I'm praying to God to heal me or heal one of my kids when they're terrible or in bad
23:46
shape or whatever.
23:48
So I think today, we would say, yeah, God heals people and there's evidences, stories like
23:55
the one you just heard or other people and whatever means he uses, whether it's instantaneous
24:01
or through medicine or through the work of some other instrument, I don't know.
24:05
But like what we have going on here, I think, is an expression of Paul's apostleship.
24:12
So the miracles done by the apostles were to, one, prove that they were, in fact, apostles
24:18
and to affirm the gospel that they were preaching.
24:21
And so just like there's no more scripture after the apostles, there's no more gifted
24:28
people doing these kinds of miracles post apostolic age.
24:33
It's kind of the way I would describe why we don't see people run around doing these
24:39
kinds of things today in the way that it was going on in the first century.
24:43
You're a cessationist?
24:44
I'm a soft cessationist.
24:46
I feel.
24:47
Define that a little bit.
24:48
Define that a little bit for us.
24:49
I think God can use miraculous signs to whatever extent or degree he wants to use them.
24:55
And I think there are places in the world today that are sort of apostolic in their
25:01
context, kind of a first, a duplication of a first century context, no visible church,
25:07
no scripture in that language.
25:09
And at least, sub-singer in Africa, Southeast Asia.
25:12
So if God wants to show up miraculously and affirm the word of the gospel or a messenger,
25:17
I think it's very consistent with what we see in scripture.
25:19
Well, that's what I hear from a lot of people that are missionaries in Africa.
25:23
And the thing is, is why Christianity has been exploding in Africa is because these
25:26
are a people group that believe in miracles to begin with, right?
25:30
Just because it's some of the cultural context there.
25:33
But there are people that are like, look, I've been doing ministry in America for decades,
25:36
and I go get into like, into the grimy areas, maybe the Middle East or Africa or something
25:42
like that.
25:43
And we're seeing miracles.
25:44
We're seeing these healings, we're seeing stuff that I cannot explain and I also can't
25:49
believe my eyes.
25:50
Again, I'm hearing about a second hand, but it's the same thing when you see those videos
25:53
that pop up on YouTube or Instagram or something like that to where it's like, this person's
25:57
never walked and then all of a sudden they get up and they're doing cartwheels and stuff
26:00
like that.
26:01
And I just, I have such a skeptical spirit when it comes to stuff like that because people
26:05
like Benny Hinn exist, where they're using the jacket to knock down people on the stage
26:10
and heal them of everything that could have ever possibly gone wrong as long as they donate
26:13
to the ministry for the brethren.
26:15
And so that's kind of the issue that a lot of people run into is the, I understand healthy
26:19
skepticism is fine, but I don't always feel like it's healthy whenever I put it out there
26:23
because then I feel like I'm limiting God and what he's able to do in my understanding
26:27
of any type of miracle because I'm always looking at it kind of like a skew like, I don't really
26:31
think that's real.
26:32
I'm like you.
26:33
I grew up in a charismatic church, so I've seen a lot of things, but I have seen a miracle
26:39
in the fact that my brother when he was two years old, uh, fell out of a two story window.
26:43
I actually saw him fall out of a two story window.
26:46
Was it during a sermon that somebody was giving?
26:48
No, because I would have been a great corollary.
26:50
Nope.
26:51
I was watching Power Rangers.
26:52
So even better.
26:53
Totally not paying attention to my brother.
26:55
Falls out of a two story window barking at dogs in the backyard.
26:58
All you hurt was this pinky.
27:00
Like it's just like, there's just the grace of God that, that nothing worse happened
27:05
to him.
27:06
And then I, you know, I grew up in the charismatic movement that I grow up in and my sister and
27:09
I were having the discussion on cessationism.
27:13
And she has these ladies who are her kind of her, um, what do you want to call it?
27:18
Like mentors.
27:19
And they're very much in the charismatic movement.
27:21
She's having these questions and she's asking them and they're like, you need to be careful
27:24
with that.
27:25
Like God will take away your healing powers.
27:28
And she's like, what?
27:29
She's like, no lady goes, no lie, lady goes, I healed somebody yesterday at church.
27:33
They had a headache and now they no longer have a headache.
27:36
And I was like, I do that every day.
27:38
It's called Advil, you know, like, like, I mean, like those are common greats.
27:43
We take something like this and we take something like in the, in the apostolic age of like
27:49
healing.
27:50
Like we, we talked about back in a couple of weeks ago when Paul like just touched garments
27:55
and they, people were taking it and they were being healed.
27:58
And we, and we think that we're so like, we're like, we're so much better and everything.
28:04
Like we have these powers to heal and it's just like, come on guys, like, let's not make
28:08
this look like, you know, so you're telling me ridiculous, you know, it's jacket does
28:13
not work.
28:14
Many hints.
28:15
Jacket doesn't work.
28:16
Uh, there's a church, the church in Springfield, Missouri, uh, what's it called, uh, James River
28:21
freeway.
28:22
They have the guy from Bethel come out every week for a healing service.
28:25
I guess supposedly they grew some lady's toes back that were amputated.
28:28
Yeah, I remember.
28:29
Nobody see the toes, you know, and so it's like you put this stuff out there and, and you
28:34
just cheapen what the Bible is actually doing.
28:38
And I, I feel like it's just something that's just wrong with, with our day and age and,
28:41
in regards to, to, you know, what do you want to call this?
28:45
Like spiritual gifts, you know, like the spiritual gifts, like nothing sexy about the
28:51
spiritual gift of being a teacher or a giver, or, you know, um, being, helping people with
28:58
accountability, but people want that speaking in tongues, healing, prophesying and that's
29:03
actually a very important thing to bring up because there are certain people whose gifts
29:07
are very sexy, right?
29:09
They can sing.
29:10
They are gifted when it comes to music.
29:12
They're gifted speakers, uh, singing, I guess not listed, uh, in terms, I guess that would
29:19
be like a talent or a skill that they were given that can be used to glorify God, but
29:23
it wouldn't be necessarily a spiritual gift.
29:26
But there are people that in their gifting, they have things that are sexier than so someone
29:31
who can present, you know, a barn burner of a sermon and, you know, it's this incredible
29:34
thing.
29:35
There's somebody else that's getting the coffee ready.
29:37
There's somebody else that is like faithfully serving in the children's ministry, like holding
29:42
a baby and rocking it while, you know, so that their mom and dad can be in the service
29:45
and learn.
29:47
And I always try to, um, take the sting out of it when people will come up to me, especially
29:51
after a speech, because I still got the mic attached to my face and it's like, oh, I was
29:55
the guy that was a center of attention for the last hour or something like that.
29:58
And I will try to just ask questions about them because they come up to me.
30:01
They want to, you know, give all these, these compliments and all that.
30:04
And I will accept them and say thank you, but then I want to try to put the focus back
30:07
on them and see like, what are some ways that I can help you?
30:10
Because you think you asking me questions, like you're, you're, you're trying to like
30:13
get, get answers to your stuff.
30:15
I, I want to ask questions of you and I want to see what I can do to learn from you.
30:18
And so it's just one way of trying to level out the playing field to where even the sexy
30:23
things kind of come back down to a normal level.
30:25
Cause I've even had people like, well, look, I'm not, I'm not gifted like you.
30:28
So God can't use me like he's using you.
30:29
I'm like, wait a minute.
30:32
God can use you, but he's not going to use you in the same way.
30:35
Right.
30:36
Like he's giving me a very specific skillset, a very specific direction and a very specific
30:40
directive to equipment on this globe to push back darkness.
30:43
You can do the exact same thing in your household, in your congregation, in your neighborhood,
30:47
in your whatever, but there's a spirit of diminishment, which I know people get nervous
30:51
with using even that phraseology, but the set spirits of spirit of diminishment that
30:55
will say, well, you know, I can't help anyone be healed.
30:57
So I guess I'm, I'm, I'm not as important or something like that.
31:00
So yeah.
31:01
Yeah.
31:02
If the eye should say to the foot, you know, I'm not, I'm not a foot then if we're, I shouldn't
31:04
be a part of the body, you know, right?
31:06
That first Corinthians 12 is just a beautiful, um, passage is showing how we all have a place
31:13
within God's greater story and as believers, we have a part in the big seed church to do
31:19
our part, you know, to, to help it run the way that God wants it to run, you know.
31:24
So you're right.
31:25
I mean, I, I love that we use it with our, with our ministry, um, with something called
31:32
life verse where the dads are expressing a blessing over their, their son, um, and it's
31:38
just showing them that you have a place like it, as you just signed to follow Jesus, you
31:42
have a place in, in the church, you have an, uh, you have something that you will be gifted
31:46
with.
31:47
I do have a question about talents versus gifts, um, and I don't know the answer to it.
31:53
So it's just up for whatever, but like there are obviously people that are, that are born
31:57
very talented in certain things.
31:59
Maybe there's really good of math or some, some of them are just really, really fast.
32:03
Um, I assume that talents and the gifts that are given by the Holy Spirit, um, are different,
32:11
like, but, uh, do they compliment one another or they completely, in other words, someone
32:18
that becomes a believer and never thought about serving, but now it's like they have
32:23
this passion to serve, you know, um, but they're also fast.
32:28
I mean, I don't, I don't know what, how to, how to put it, but I just feel like spiritual
32:32
gifts and talents are, are different altogether.
32:35
Is that correct?
32:36
Is that the right way to think about it?
32:37
Yeah.
32:38
I think there are some differences.
32:39
The other way I've, I've also thought about it or tried to explain it before is when you
32:45
think about the gifts, let's say somebody who is, comes to faith in Christ, they are
32:52
completely disorganized, scatterbrained, um, you know, just, you can paint the picture
32:59
of that, of what that person might look like.
33:01
They're not all of a sudden given the gift of administration.
33:06
Really what takes place is somebody who's pretty well organized, pretty good at administrative
33:11
things comes to faith in Christ and all of a sudden they have this bent, this gift that
33:20
they are burdened to use for kingdom purposes.
33:23
And so boom, there we go.
33:25
They slot in that category of administration or, um, helps or whatever else, you know, you
33:31
might, uh, might be consistent with it.
33:34
So I don't necessarily think now that the sign gifts, I think are unique or these, these
33:40
miraculous gifts are unique in that way.
33:42
Um, but it, somebody who's got a merciful sort of spirit when they come to faith in Christ,
33:47
all of a sudden the spirit uses that disposition to, to minister for God's glory and for kingdom
33:55
purposes.
33:56
So I think those, those bench, those talents, those ways were even nurtured and shaped.
34:00
The spirit will then use, uh, to glorify himself.
34:03
Or those come, like those gifts that you're talking about, they come from the Holy Spirit.
34:07
Like they're not something taught.
34:09
Is that correct?
34:11
I'm kind of saying that the Holy Spirit uses maybe inherent or already existing talents
34:18
or bent, uh, for spiritual purposes.
34:23
Um, so they're not necessarily an add on we receive as much as they are something that
34:28
the spirit then uses as a, as a, as a gifting, uh, to serve the church.
34:33
What about like the gift of tongues and prophecy and, and stuff like that?
34:38
Well, that's what I'm saying that I don't think those are active in the church.
34:41
I don't think they're active either.
34:42
I just, I just grew up like where you would go to a class and they would teach you how
34:47
to do those.
34:48
And so it's just like, I'm trying to gauge like, Hey, I don't want to be hard.
34:54
Like, in my, my thinking of that, I want to be like, I guess the word I want to use is
34:58
winsome, you know, um, and when I talk to people, because I have a lot of people in my
35:03
life that, that kind of go that route and it's like, how do you talk to them in a winsome
35:07
way in a truthful, graceful way about like, Hey, that stuff kind of seized and what they're
35:12
doing is I think more of a control type thing or they're trying to, I don't know, it's just
35:17
kind of sheisty.
35:18
Well, and I maybe even to Eric's point, if it's a, if it's a, or his question, if it's
35:23
a gift, like why do we need training for it?
35:26
I agreed.
35:27
That's why I said that when I was eight years old, when they tried to teach me to speak
35:30
in tongues.
35:31
And I had to sit with the girls that day, like they're like, you can't sit in the voice
35:34
section.
35:35
You listen to girls section.
35:36
I was like, jokes on you.
35:37
I'm here.
35:38
So, so for this class, this class, they weren't, they were trying to teach you how to speak
35:43
in tongues.
35:44
It wasn't like you've been given the gift.
35:45
Here's how to.
35:46
It was children's church.
35:47
They brought us up on stage and they were teaching us how they put the microphone up
35:51
to our face and they would teach us how to speak in tongues.
35:53
And we had to try to speak in tongues, like, and so I'm assuming some of the kids just
35:58
were just like, oh, some of the show, they're just coming out with like, and I just was
36:02
like, I just like what leaned into the lady who was trying to help me.
36:05
And I was just like, show them along and didn't know that eight years old, I go, this is a
36:09
gift.
36:10
Why are you teaching me?
36:11
And she's like, you go sit over there.
36:13
Shut up boy.
36:14
Well, I guess that that's part of the thing is because I could give a care less what
36:17
people like think about Christians.
36:19
But when you see that video, that, that guy saying, come on, let that Holy Ghost.
36:23
This language come up out of you.
36:24
And then he puts the mic on the guy and he just goes, and then everyone just starts freaking
36:29
out.
36:30
They're like, oh my gosh, it's happening.
36:31
He's like, is it or is the guy like, oh, everyone's looking at me?
36:35
I better make noises.
36:36
I don't sound like English.
36:37
I've seen it using control and the fact that like there is a, there's a, I'm not going
36:43
into church, but there was the pastor's wife was having a women's thing.
36:48
And the pastor's wife knew these two ladies who knew this one lady who was going through
36:51
a tough time.
36:53
And so when she went up on stage, she got the information from the two ladies and was like,
36:56
I feel the Lord telling me right now, like she was prophesying over the slate and this
37:00
lady is like, that's me.
37:01
That's me.
37:02
You know, it's just like, she already knew that like it's nothing special.
37:06
It's just, it's just a dirty trick, you know, and it's just like, and it's a way to control
37:11
because I had another family member who their daughter was at camp and the pastor's wife
37:16
came up to her and was like, I see, I see a hidden sin in your life right now.
37:21
We need to come out with it right now.
37:22
I see hidden sin in your life just to get her to open up.
37:25
And then we asked her, you know, like, why did she say that to you?
37:28
She's like, well, she said that I looked like I was having too much of a good time that
37:32
that wasn't right.
37:33
And so I was like, that's so weird.
37:35
Like I don't understand it.
37:36
It just, it boggles my mind when you see stuff like this in, in scripture and then people
37:42
go and manipulate it in the way that they can just to have some sort of spiritual control
37:47
over people.
37:48
All right, we made a lot of people mad with that section, so let's keep all this moving
37:52
art.
37:53
You're not going to argue for Sunday night church.
37:55
I thought that starts in 17.
37:57
Well, you go ahead and make the argument.
37:59
Steel man the other side.
38:00
Well, yeah.
38:01
12 o'clock in the night, isn't it?
38:02
Yeah.
38:03
I mean, you know, this guy had worked all day.
38:05
So it was first day of the week of what they didn't have weekends, first day of the week
38:08
for them Sunday.
38:09
It's work day.
38:10
So yeah, no doubt he was tired.
38:11
Well, one thing I read from sprawl was sprawl said they, they were in the upper room, which
38:15
had some windows, but they all had torches and the torches like, you know, to keep them
38:19
going.
38:20
They sucked in all the oxygen.
38:21
Oh, yeah.
38:22
So there wasn't a lot of oxygen in the room.
38:23
And so the guy was trying to get some fresh air and because there wasn't a lot of oxygen
38:26
and Paul might be a little bit boring that he just fell asleep and conked out.
38:32
That is really funny because one thing like if you get into a debate, I only bring stuff
38:35
because my wife's family, small town church Christ, like they think that the narrow path
38:38
only is referring to them.
38:40
And they're like, the reason why we don't do music is because it's not described in the
38:43
New Testament, so we don't do anything that's not described in the New Testament.
38:46
Now forgetting the fact that they don't describe microphones or, you know, central heat and
38:50
air or amplification or speakers in the New Testament, and they certainly have all those
38:54
inside their church.
38:55
But it's like, I think that would be hilarious if they only did church on like the third
38:57
story lit up by torches.
39:00
And one person had to fall out of the window every service.
39:02
Only the New Testament.
39:03
What's that?
39:04
Is that an Andy Stanley satellite church?
39:06
No, but I think Andy Stanley has gotten a shout out shout out Andy Stanley on every episode
39:11
of this batch of forging tables, but let's keep this train moving.
39:14
Let's get into a 17 through 27.
39:17
So Ryan, if you can read 17 through 27 now from a light as he sent to Ephesus and called
39:24
the elders of the church to come to him.
39:26
And when they came to him, he said to them, you yourselves know I have lived among you
39:31
the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia, serving the Lord with all humility
39:36
and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews.
39:44
How did I not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable and teaching
39:49
you in public and from house to house, testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance towards
39:55
God in the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.
39:57
And now behold, I am going to Jerusalem constrained by the spirit, not knowing what will happen
40:05
to me there except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and affliction
40:11
await me, but I do not account my life for any value, nor is precious to myself.
40:17
If only I may finish my course in the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus to testify
40:22
to the gospel of grace, the grace of God.
40:26
And now behold, I know that none of you, none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming
40:32
the kingdom will see my face again.
40:34
Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, for I did
40:40
not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.
40:45
So this is very interesting.
40:46
I did not realize this.
40:47
This is the only speech in Acts, which is to a Christian audience.
40:52
And so, you know, which obviously a close reading would give you that, but this speech
40:56
was addressed to elders, to pastors, to overseers.
41:01
And, you know, this focuses on, you know, his past ministry, it focuses on his future
41:05
sufferings that are coming for him.
41:07
He gives a lot of different examples.
41:10
Really when we get into 28, we get into some interesting things.
41:13
But on this first section of what Paul was speaking about, any thoughts there before
41:18
we get to the last part of Acts 20.
41:20
I like how he talked about preaching repentance to Jews and Greeks.
41:24
The one that really stuck out to me the most was that he says, "Constrained by the Spirit,
41:32
not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me
41:35
in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me."
41:40
Like we live in a church nowadays, a church community nowadays, it's all about like, you
41:45
know, if it's not good, it's not coming from the Holy Spirit.
41:48
If it doesn't lead your life to money and great success and everything, that's not the
41:54
Holy Spirit.
41:55
But like the Holy Spirit can lay out to you and testify, like, "Hey man, you're going
41:58
to come into hardships, you know, hardships are going to come your way."
42:01
And the Spirit's testifying, that's Paul.
42:03
And Paul's really open about that.
42:05
Paul, and we're promised that too, and if we're living in a Christ-like life, then we will
42:09
be rejected.
42:10
Yeah.
42:11
Or be persecuted.
42:12
So I just thought that was interesting.
42:13
Well, that's one thing that's interesting as well as the thing everybody has heard.
42:18
If you don't feel like Satan is bothering you very much, it's probably because you're
42:21
not living boldly enough for Christ and all that.
42:23
It's kind of like a church campism, but I think it does definitely apply.
42:27
But I think we live in a day and age where we live in a country where we're not experiencing
42:31
real, deep levels of persecution yet.
42:35
But you know, the winds are pointing in that direction like this is something that could
42:41
be at our doorsteps before long.
42:44
And my wife and I had a conversation here recently where I was like, "Babe, because of the things
42:50
that we talk about on the show, because of the nerves that I touch in culture, and because
42:58
there was a time period where a bunch of really bad things happened to me and to the
43:03
people around me in a very contracted period of time.
43:07
And I'm talking to Joby about it and he goes, "You must be over the X."
43:10
I was like, "What do you mean?"
43:12
He goes, "Sane's really not liking some of the areas that you're pushing on, and so
43:17
he's trying to get you to shut up, he's trying to take you out."
43:20
And then what's interesting is almost right after we had that conversation, a same gaggle
43:25
of negative events happened to him.
43:28
And so a couple of weeks later, I got to be like, "Looks like you're over the X, because
43:32
he's trying to take you out.
43:34
He's trying to take out members of your family.
43:36
And I think that's important for us to reckon with because the conversation that my wife
43:39
and I had is like, "Kels, because of what I do on the show and because of the things
43:43
that I say, I may end up in prison someday, and we've got to be okay with that."
43:49
Like you may be left behind with these boys because I'm in an unjust fashion being marched
43:56
away because of the things that I say publicly.
43:59
And again, I'm a big pre-decision guy.
44:02
You have to pre-decide how you're going to react in situations.
44:05
So guys that have never thought through what happens if someone breaks into their household
44:08
what they're going to do, if that happens, you will fall to the level of your preparation
44:11
and training.
44:12
And if you haven't pre-decided that you will end a life to protect a life, you're just
44:16
going to be flipping a coin in that moment, and it may be too late by the time the coin
44:19
hits the floor.
44:20
And so this is one of those times where it's like as a family, as a dyad, we had to pre-decide
44:26
that if that were to happen, that I will go.
44:30
And I will allow that because that is persecution for the sake of Christ, and I'm not going
44:34
to fight the cops.
44:35
I'm not going to fight the soldiers.
44:37
I'm not going to fight the SWAT or whatever the thing is.
44:39
I'm just going to go.
44:41
And I don't think a lot of people have really reckoned with that.
44:43
I think there's a lot of Christians in modernity that are okay to check the boxes.
44:47
They like taking their kids to VBS in Awana.
44:50
They like going to Sunday school.
44:51
They like going to church.
44:52
They like doing the Christianese type things, listening to Christian radio, buying books
44:56
from the Christian bookstore.
44:57
But if push comes to shove and it's like, do you actually believe this stuff?
45:02
I think back to Columbine when you hear about those two murderers that went through executing
45:06
students, they were trying to find Christians because before they would execute and they
45:09
would ask them, how big is your God now?
45:12
Do you still believe in them?
45:13
And we have stories of kids that actually said, yes, in their final moments on this
45:17
planet, they said, yes, I think about the defiant Christians that are about to have
45:22
their heads cut off by members of Al Qaeda or Boko Haram or, you know, any of these other
45:27
Muslim fundamentalist groups.
45:29
And they're asking them, do you still believe in this Jesus as your savior?
45:33
And they will boldly proclaim, yes, right before the sword start to hit their throats.
45:37
And so I think all of us need to have a reckoning in our own personal lives and discussions
45:42
with our wives, whether we're in professional vocational ministry or not, that someday if
45:46
real persecution comes, we got to be ready to stand firm and to take heart because we
45:52
went in the end.
45:53
That's right.
45:54
And you can't just assume that just because we have soft persecution today that 20 years
45:59
from now, that's going to be the same, it may or may not.
46:03
But I think about that in respect to my kids and without going off a deep end and making
46:09
things seem like crazy or whatever, it's like I want them to be prepared.
46:14
And exactly what you just said, like we have to address certain things with them.
46:18
It's like, okay, look, if this is, here's a scenario, what's the right response in these
46:25
scenarios?
46:26
And I can't tell my kids how they are going to respond, but I can certainly help lead them
46:31
to that point where they can make that decision for themselves.
46:34
But I do think that we can't just assume that things will be the same in 15, even 10 years
46:39
from now, that we have to be preparing and leading our kids and our families in that
46:44
direction, assuming that it does get worse.
46:47
Absolutely.
46:48
Well, guys, let's go and get into the last section of Acts 20 Browning.
46:51
You're going to bring it home for us.
46:52
So let's do 28 through 38, okay.
46:58
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has
47:03
made you overseers to take, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his
47:10
own blood.
47:12
I know that after my departure, fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
47:18
And from your among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things to draw away the
47:24
disciples after them.
47:26
Therefore be alert, remembering that there that for three years, I did not cease night
47:31
or day to admonish every one of you with tears.
47:35
And now I commend you to God into the word of his grace, which is able to build you up
47:42
and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
47:47
I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
47:50
You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with
47:56
me.
47:57
In all things, I have shown you that by working hard in this way, we must help the weak and
48:02
remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, it is more blessed to give
48:09
than to receive.
48:11
And when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all.
48:15
And there was much weeping on all on the part of all.
48:18
They embraced Paul and kissed him, being sorrowful, sorrowful most of all because of the word
48:24
he had spoken that they would not see his face again.
48:27
And they accompanied him to the ship.
48:30
So immediately, whenever I was going through this section, I thought about Hebrews 13.
48:34
So verse 17, obey those who rule over you and be submissive, for they watch out for your
48:39
souls as those who must give an account, let them do so with joy and not with grief, for
48:44
that would be unprofitable for you.
48:46
So as those who must give an account, that is a directive saying that if you are a pastor,
48:53
you will give an account for how you've shepherded your flock someday.
48:57
The gravity of what that has to feel like has to be very intense because as I tell people
49:03
all the time, look, I'm not going to, I have to give an account for everything I've ever
49:06
done and said and all those types of things.
49:08
But it's never elucidated here that I'm going in the text that I'm going to have to give
49:12
an account someday for how I operated in my job.
49:15
I am to work as as unto the Lord.
49:17
I am, I am to do a good work and just because I'm in ministry, people think it's a little
49:20
bit different, but I'm not a pastor and I never claim to be with people.
49:23
Like if anything, I'm a prophet speaking into culture and speaking into some of these different
49:27
topics, but I'm not a pastor, but Jay, for you, when you read a section like this or read
49:32
things in light of Hebrews 13, how do you deal with the, with the gravity of the, you
49:38
know, the yoke that has put upon you and the responsibility?
49:43
My mind runs toward the concept of church membership.
49:47
When I read passages like this and cross reference with Hebrews 13, because if I'm going to give
49:55
an account for those who I'm over in the Lord, I need to know who those people are.
50:00
It needs to be clear and identifiable and quantifiable.
50:02
And in that same passage in Hebrews 13, it addresses believers and says, pray for and
50:08
submit to those who are over you in the Lord.
50:10
So for the believer who's not a pastor, they've got to identify who those people are.
50:15
So if, if you're the solo Christian who says, you know, my pastor is RC Sproul, even though
50:22
he's dead and Matt Chandler, even though he lives 500 miles away and Joe B. Martin, even
50:26
though he lives on the other side of the country, those are my pastors.
50:28
Well, they don't know you.
50:30
Right.
50:31
Not consequential to you.
50:32
Yeah.
50:33
They, you know, they might send you a letter annually because you support their ministry,
50:37
but they're never going to show up in the hospital or they're not going to knock on your,
50:41
your home, the door of your home, when your life's falling apart, like, so all that to
50:47
me points to church membership that is both meaningful to the Christian and quantifiable
50:57
and identifiable to the elder or the pastor who's given charge to take care of those souls.
51:03
So I take it very seriously.
51:06
And I wonder what churches do that don't have membership, don't have any meaningful
51:11
quantifiable step.
51:14
How do they approach shepherding in a meaningful way and in a way that they can say, yeah,
51:23
that person was under my care and I was accountable for their heart and life.
51:27
When I've talked about it on the show before and again, some of you are like, why are you
51:30
beat up on life, church so much?
51:31
I'm using it because that was a church I attended for longer than any other church I've
51:35
attended in my entire life, I was there for about 12 years or so.
51:38
But one of the reasons why my wife and I left there is because there was no membership and
51:43
we were involved.
51:44
Like we, we led life groups, I was a community group leader, helped them, you know, start
51:48
some men's ministry stuff.
51:49
So we were known and we both came to the same realization around the same time is if something
51:55
didn't, something had happened to me, I don't know that there would have been anybody to
51:58
show up to my house to make sure that she's okay.
52:00
And like that never sat well with me, especially because of how involved we were.
52:05
And we basically said, Hey, ring us out for, for, you know, the sake of, of what live
52:09
church is doing.
52:10
And I, I know that there are a lot of people out here listening that maybe you have a little
52:14
bit of a pit in your stomach right now because you're like, Oh no, I never went through a
52:17
membership class at my church.
52:18
And so don't hear what Jay's not saying.
52:19
He's saying, if your church doesn't have membership, that's something is wrong.
52:23
But the, the point is, is that a pastor is going to have to give an account for how they've
52:26
shepherded you.
52:27
And if they don't know your name, that's potentially going to be problematic.
52:32
People will use these segments of scripture to say like, look, if your church is too big,
52:35
you're doing it wrong.
52:36
Now there are layers that you can build of accountability and leadership underneath you
52:40
that, that will help you to basically minister to those people.
52:43
But gosh, like if you're a pastor, you've got to take sections like this seriously because,
52:48
you know, you've got to know the people that are in your flock.
52:51
Otherwise you're not going to know to save them or to minister to them in their time of
52:54
need.
52:55
That's a good thing to look at your actual shepherd then.
52:58
We kind of, you know, like you go off on my church, I go off on, you know, the church
53:01
we were at before and like we had a lifeline to the pastor, but you know, if you didn't
53:07
agree with him, you, you weren't in the right place.
53:11
And so he never really brought to you biblically why he said what he said.
53:15
And he was just like, this is just isn't the place for you.
53:18
But like one thing that I really that really brought that out for me is a submission as
53:22
a congregant and you and I had this conversation when my son was wanting to be baptized.
53:27
And I think he was like seven and we really agreed that, hey, if he wants to be baptized,
53:32
you know, he should do it right after he becomes a believer.
53:34
Well, we for reasons faith Bible church only allows when you're eight.
53:39
And so I was trying to talk to Jay about it and I kind of gave him my reasons and he's
53:41
like, yeah, I understand that.
53:43
And like some of these are really good reasons, but this is why we do what we do.
53:47
And I'm just going to have to ask you to submit to the church elders on this.
53:51
And I'm just like, man, I've never had that question thrown at me before.
53:55
And I have I ever been into a place where I wanted to submit to the eldership of somebody.
54:00
And I was like, I went back and talked to my wife.
54:03
And I was just like, you know what, he just told me we need to submit.
54:05
He's not going to hold us back.
54:06
We can go get him baptized, you know, someplace else if we wanted to.
54:09
But I was like, I want him to be baptized in our church.
54:12
And the great thing about is you've got to baptize him.
54:14
So I'm like glad we waited.
54:16
But, but yeah, that's just the thing like we're you're accountable to us as a shepherd.
54:21
But we also need to submit.
54:23
And if we don't have respect for the person who's teaching, you know, because he'll come
54:28
in on false teachers and the person that's teaching you, if they are a true teacher and
54:32
they are teaching the gospel and they are a true shepherd, you'll have it.
54:36
It will be so easy to submit to that.
54:38
There isn't any reason to second guess what your submission on that.
54:42
And so it just made me really think about that.
54:44
Well, and something you just said, just trigger to thought, you know, you use the plural elders.
54:51
Others only have authority within the context of their plurality.
54:54
I have no spiritual authority over any one individual Christian.
54:59
But the elders of the body, okay, we do have some recognized authority in our local church.
55:05
I'm just a guy.
55:06
I'm just a man, you know, and I believe in the priesthood of the believer, all of that.
55:10
But in the context of our plurality, there is some authority, individual person, not so
55:18
much.
55:19
It's the Bible, there's some authority just in the act of preaching God's word.
55:23
But in terms of what you're submitting to, it's not, you're not submitting to a man.
55:28
You're submitting to the plurality of the elderships of your local church.
55:33
So yeah, important.
55:34
When I think it goes back to some of the stuff you're talking about in verse 29, it talks
55:37
about fierce wolves that will come in among you.
55:42
And I feel like there are a lot of pastors that are not prepared for the fierce wolves
55:45
or they themselves have become the wolf and they don't even recognize it.
55:49
As I say, often for any of these worldviews that are antithetical to the gospel or they're
55:56
just straight up satanic to take hold in our society, you need two groups of people, you
56:00
need conscious nefarious actors and you need useful idiots.
56:05
You need both groups of people and a lot of people that are in the useful idiot category.
56:09
I know that may seem like harsh language, but these are people that are go along to get
56:13
along people, these are people that are focused on winsomeness, these people want to be known
56:16
for what they're for and not what they're against.
56:18
And sometimes they don't realize that they have become the wolf because what they are
56:22
espousing from their pulpits that they were given by God in order to do is something that
56:27
is deceiving the people that they are supposed to be caring for.
56:31
Now there are other people that do that on purpose.
56:33
Those are the conscious nefarious actors.
56:35
They know exactly what they're doing and they're doing it for some other purpose other than
56:39
for the betterment of their flock.
56:40
That's usually for the betterment of their pocketbooks, which takes us back right to
56:43
the top at verse 28.
56:45
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, not to your bank account, not
56:49
to your social media following, not to the conferences you're asked to come and speak
56:52
at to the care of your flock.
56:56
And I just feel like for so many pastors again, this is your job.
57:00
Okay.
57:01
I didn't cause, you know, these things to be written, I didn't create all the standards
57:05
by which you are to perform this job.
57:07
But I, as a, as a congregan, am to hold you to that.
57:10
And I think that that is important as you should hold me to the authority of what the
57:15
Bible says as well, as you just talked about where you asked Ryan to submit to the leadership
57:19
of the elders on something like that, or it could have been something even more serious.
57:23
And there are a lot of people that have really insulated themselves, pastors have insulated
57:27
themselves from elders.
57:28
And there's some pastors that I know that completely and vehemently disagreed with the
57:31
decision that their elders made that they submitted to the authority of their elders.
57:36
Because there are other pastors that I know of that have maybe had been burned by their
57:39
elders before.
57:40
They go away for a while, come back, create a new ministry and all of a sudden, oop, they
57:43
don't have elders anymore.
57:45
They don't have people that they're accountable to.
57:46
They basically get to run things as a, you know, mandatory way management team.
57:52
Right.
57:53
And so this is a management team.
57:54
These are people that I go to.
57:55
It's hard for best friends.
57:56
Right.
57:57
And people on that management team have no power, no voting power to basically stop the pastor
58:02
from doing anything or to take them out of the pulpit.
58:05
And so it's like, Hey, I've got these people.
58:07
It's like when you create a 501(c)(3) and you just put people on your board, that'll never
58:10
question you.
58:11
Right.
58:12
And so maybe there's value to that, but perhaps there's not because basically you're getting
58:15
all these syncophantic people that are just going to go along to get along with whatever
58:18
that you were wanting to do to begin with.
58:20
And perhaps the overall thing that you're doing is not going to be positive either.
58:24
So other thoughts on Acts 20, I was thinking about this spiritual authority in general.
58:30
I read a book regardless of whether you agree or disagree with all that Watchman, he says
58:35
he has a book called spiritual authority and he makes a point that we're all have, we're
58:41
all authorities over some one else, even if it's just our own household.
58:46
So as you guys were talking about this, I was just thinking about from Philippians 2 about
58:51
working out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
58:54
So I think it's real easy just to approach things and get laxa-daisical in our faith
59:01
and use Christianese words and things that we've learned and heard and said before, whatever,
59:06
and we can look and play the part, but we're not necessarily getting down in the trenches
59:09
and continuing to work it out and fear and trembling.
59:12
I think about James talking about not many of you become or claim to be teachers because
59:18
we know that those that are will be judged more strictly how we do have opportunities
59:24
to speak at our Sunday school or to teach our children or as we should.
59:32
We shouldn't do that just willy-nilly, that we shouldn't just kind of go into it off
59:38
the cuff and not put effort into that and we certainly shouldn't downplay the authority
59:48
of the word when we are asked then to deliver it to someone else.
59:55
So anyways, it was just a couple of thoughts.
59:57
I think the last thing I'd like to bring up is the fact that when I read this thing from
1:00:02
Paul, it kind of brings me back to 2 Timothy 4, 7, I've fought the good fight, I've finished
1:00:08
a race and I've kept the faith and just watching at the end of this where people are watching
1:00:13
him get on the boat, they're hugging him, they're kissing him, they're crying because
1:00:16
I know this is the last time they're going to see him, like man, nothing shows like a
1:00:21
true shepherd than that, like the fact that if I could see somebody that I'm not going
1:00:26
to see ever again in my life to bring me to tears, that's just a beautiful moment.
1:00:32
It's like the last testament to Paul as a leader and as a shepherd to Christianity and
1:00:38
to these people.
1:00:39
He's like the last 45 minutes of Lord of the Rings when they're all like staring at each
1:00:43
other awkwardly and when they're departing, because we'll have another one.
1:00:48
I didn't know because I fell asleep in the middle of the second one because it's the worst
1:00:51
trilogy maybe in movie history.
1:00:54
The contrast is there though, Ryan to your point in verse 29, he's speaking of the savage
1:00:58
wolves that are not going to spare the flock and then compares that to his ministry where
1:01:04
he did not cease to admonish them with tears.
1:01:07
So there's a sincerity of heart there expressed in Paul's ministry that it's going to be obvious
1:01:12
when laid up against the ministry of the wolves that come along.
1:01:16
Very good guys.
1:01:17
Well, I think that wraps Acts 20, but Jay, thank you so much for being here for the last
1:01:20
several weeks and we can officially say from here on out the official policy of faith Bible
1:01:25
churches that we are calling on them Sunday schools, right?
1:01:28
That is the official written policy.
1:01:30
It's in stone now.
1:01:31
How about adult Bible schools?
1:01:33
Is that a compromise?
1:01:34
No, that's, we put a Dalton for an assumption.
1:01:38
Oh, I see.
1:01:39
I see.
1:01:40
What are we doing in there?
1:01:42
Right.
1:01:43
So, but we'd all have abs.
1:01:44
Yeah.
1:01:45
Yeah.
1:01:46
Yeah.
1:01:47
Antelope.
1:01:48
Antelope break systems.
1:01:49
Do we know the reason why the person while you were gone for that four years and they
1:01:54
were trying to ruin the church?
1:01:55
Do we know the reason why they came up with adult Bible fellowship, did they see that
1:01:58
somewhere?
1:01:59
Do we have any idea?
1:02:00
You know, everything in ministry is stolen pretty much so they probably saw it somewhere
1:02:03
and want to be imported into our model.
1:02:04
I don't know.
1:02:05
I don't know.
1:02:06
That's a great question.
1:02:07
Well, guys, if you're ever in Edmond, Oklahoma show up at 930 Faith Bible Church and you can
1:02:09
come to my Sunday school class, I might even be teaching that happens three or four times
1:02:13
a year.
1:02:14
But Jay, sincerely, thank you so much for spending some time with us.
1:02:16
But guys, we're going to leave it there.
1:02:17
Come back here next week where we will dig into acts 21, but before we let you go, we
1:02:21
are going to do a quick resilience boost.
1:02:23
Add into life permission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges,
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spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:02:28
So don't forget we've got the forging table starter set through crossway.
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All the instructions are here in the show notes.
1:02:33
We've got a link where you can get the log us Bible software at a discount.
1:02:35
That is also here in the show notes and guys, we are a donation based ministry.
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So we've got our link to our donation site there, guys.
1:02:40
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1:02:50
If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email
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to info@undonton.life, that's i-n-f-o@undonton.life.
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Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,
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including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
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Just go to www.undonton.life and as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing
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us to use their music for our content.
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The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album
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on Face Down Records.
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The links are in the description.
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I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
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Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
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Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
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