THE FORGING TABLE | Acts 2 feat. TERRY FEIX (Ep. 615)

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1:00 This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.

1:24 I'm your host Kyle Thompson.

1:26 Let's get into it.

1:27 Welcome back to the forging table, the mission of Undaunted Life is equipping in to pushback

1:30 darkness with content that forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.

1:34 At the forging table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience

1:37 by digging into God's Word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along with that journey

1:40 with us.

1:41 That's Terry.

1:42 That's Matt.

1:43 Guys, we're digging into Acts 2 today, and I normally like to ease into it, "Hey, let's

1:45 be funny.

1:46 Let's just kind of go in and kind of see where we end up.

1:48 There's way too much stuff in Acts 2, so we just have to launch right in."

1:51 So Winkler, as opposed to looking at yourself off camera, if you could read verses 1 through

1:57 13, I know you're handsome, but you don't have to keep looking at yourself.

1:59 Versus 1 through 13.

2:00 It's just so shiny.

2:01 Yeah.

2:02 Ready, second.

2:03 When the day of Pentecost arrived, what verse?

2:05 I'm sorry.

2:06 You're doing 1 through.

2:07 You were looking at yourself whenever I said what you needed to do, weren't you?

2:10 Okay, 1 through 13, hit it.

2:12 All right.

2:13 Sorry.

2:14 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place, and suddenly there

2:17 came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where

2:21 they were sitting and divided tongues as a fire appeared to them and rested on each

2:26 one of them.

2:27 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the

2:31 Spirit gave them utterance.

2:33 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem, Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

2:37 And at this sound, the multitude came together and they were bewildered because each one was

2:42 hearing them speak in his own language.

2:44 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all of these who are speaking Galileans?

2:50 And how is it that we hear each of us in his own native language?"

2:55 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappodosia, Pontus

3:03 and Asia, Fergia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to the Cyrene and

3:14 visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians, we hear them telling

3:20 in our own languages the mighty works of God.

3:23 And all were amazed and perplexed saying to one another, "What does this mean?"

3:26 But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine."

3:29 I kind of love the ending there.

3:30 It's like, "Dude, these guys are drunk.

3:32 This is crazy.

3:33 Like, that's kind of how that goes."

3:34 But this is Pentecost.

3:35 This is, you know, obviously a huge thing.

3:37 This is Pentecost means 50th.

3:39 So this is 50 days after Passover.

3:41 There's certainly some significance to that.

3:44 So we can discuss the significance of that.

3:45 But obviously the first part here, we're just going to rip off the Band-Aid and talk about

3:48 the speaking and tongues thing.

3:50 I know this is a debate.

3:51 I've seen a lot of debates, you know, people that are maybe more reformed versus people

3:54 that are more charismatic.

3:56 And you know, you see these videos online of these people just like literally shouting

4:00 gibberish.

4:01 And then, you know, depending upon where you're doing this, you're either getting a lot of

4:04 cheers or you're getting a lot of funny looks.

4:06 But the thing that seems obvious to me as I read through this is like they weren't speaking

4:10 gibberish.

4:11 They were speaking actual languages and people were actually hearing it in their language.

4:15 It wasn't as if they were given a skill set to hear some sort of weird prayer language

4:20 or something like that.

4:21 Again, I don't spend a lot of time getting into the charismatic debates.

4:24 They're just not interesting to me kind of with younger stuff.

4:26 It's just not really interesting to me.

4:27 I'm not going to spend hours and hours of my life.

4:29 But let's go wherever y'all want to go here in this first section, whether we're digging

4:32 into Pentecost or digging into the speaking and tongues.

4:35 With the speaking and tongues, I've actually done a little bit of research on this and

4:39 please somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the early Pentecostals who, you know, believed

4:44 in speaking and tongues, maybe not early, but, you know, about 18th century, they thought

4:50 that when they went on mission, the Holy Spirit would give them the language of the people

4:57 that they were going to preach the gospel to, to the point that they couldn't preach the

5:03 gospel because they didn't prepare at all.

5:05 They just thought that they'd be able to speak in tongues.

5:08 And then the first recorded tongue that was spoken, this lady, excuse me, I don't remember

5:14 her name, but they said that she was speaking Chinese and this is obviously before, you

5:18 know, we had the internet and you could just, you could tell and then they went over and

5:22 it wasn't Chinese.

5:24 And so they just fall flat on their faces.

5:25 So they had kind of changed the definition of what speaking and tongues meant to them.

5:29 But it seems like this is a clear indication that speaking and tongues can be translated

5:36 and it is a known language.

5:38 That's kind of what I get out of it.

5:39 And then Paul obviously speaks to you must have an interpreter if somebody is to speak

5:43 in tongues.

5:44 So.

5:45 Yeah, I think it's important to look at what does the text tell us.

5:50 And I think I do think people will admittedly go beyond the text.

5:54 But what does this text actually say?

5:57 We don't know exactly what was coming out of their mouth, but we do know that everybody

6:03 from all of these different nations, all these different languages, as they said, we

6:08 are hearing this in our own language.

6:11 So this is supernatural.

6:13 It's not like obviously, well, Peter is now speaking in 14 different languages.

6:19 Whatever is happening here, the Holy Spirit is making it so these people hear that.

6:25 And so later, the second point I'd make is later when Paul and Corinthians are going

6:29 to talk about an interpreter.

6:31 As you mentioned, Matt, it's an interpreter, not of necessarily a gibberish language, but

6:36 it's interpreter of a language that's a known language.

6:39 So the implication here is I agree, the text seems to strongly imply these are known languages.

6:45 Yeah.

6:46 Now those who would take it into a private prayer language or a language that's not a language

6:50 are going to, I think, admittedly go beyond what the text says.

6:53 I think we should try out our private prayer languages maybe for the next 10 minutes.

6:57 So it's just like, "Shobba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-

7:27 is an ability now that we can now start speaking

7:31 each other's language and tell each other

7:33 about the word of God.

7:35 - So, we'll go ahead, go ahead, Terry.

7:36 I had to follow the sentence.

7:37 - I wanted to go ahead and come in, Jake,

7:39 since I took a zinger at him before.

7:41 - Hey, Jake, you did it.

7:43 - This is seriously one of the really good points

7:48 to make out of this because it's another one

7:50 of those full circle things.

7:52 If you think about the Tower of Babel,

7:53 you get the pride of humanity building this tower,

7:58 not scatters them by the division of language.

8:01 Here, you get the lack of pride,

8:05 the humility of one man, Jesus Christ,

8:08 that now is bringing everybody together.

8:11 And it really is, like you said, Jake,

8:13 it is, in a sense, the undoing of the Tower of Babel.

8:16 - One, so I don't want to take us too far off topic here,

8:20 just because, well, it's on topic,

8:21 but we have so much more to cover.

8:23 I remember some commentary coming

8:25 from some sort of fringy elements.

8:27 Whenever Google Glass was just introduced,

8:29 which I think was a glowing failure, by the way,

8:32 but it was like, okay, you wear these glasses.

8:34 And I think one of the features was,

8:35 is you could look at a text in English,

8:38 and you could have it real time translated

8:40 into Mandarin Chinese or Spanish or Yiddish

8:42 or whatever, like it would just translate it for you.

8:45 And there are different AI things now

8:47 that are working to help people translate things

8:49 in real time.

8:50 So you can be listening to somebody,

8:52 and you don't have to have a gap for a translator.

8:54 Like I spoke in Florida here recently,

8:56 and there was a guy that came up to me

8:57 in between my talks and said,

8:58 hey, can you talk a little slower,

8:59 'cause I'm translating for you in real time,

9:01 because there were a bunch of guys

9:02 that were primary Spanish speakers

9:03 that had ear pieces in.

9:05 And so he's in the back translating as I'm talking,

9:07 and I immediately felt terrible,

9:08 'cause I'm like, I talk way too fast.

9:10 But he's literally translating,

9:11 but there would be AI technology

9:13 that's maybe right around the corner

9:14 that is immediately translating that.

9:17 And there were people that were talking about that,

9:18 like no, AI is the mark of the beast,

9:20 or this is the tool, the antichrist,

9:22 because of the tower of Babel,

9:24 because of all these different things

9:25 that we see even here in the text,

9:27 that that is a sign of the end times

9:29 that the technology is doing that,

9:31 whereas some people are like,

9:31 are you out of your mind?

9:32 This is just a cool thing

9:34 that's allowing people to hear stuff in their own language.

9:36 Like we talk about Jobe all the time,

9:37 but one of the things that his church is doing

9:39 is they're translating,

9:41 not translating, they're using AI tools

9:43 to put his sermons out in Spanish,

9:45 where it sounds like him.

9:46 It's not a generic AI speaker,

9:48 it sounds like him speaking Spanish,

9:50 and they're still kind of working the kinks out

9:52 of something like that.

9:53 But I don't know if any of y'all have heard

9:54 something like that before,

9:55 because I thought of some of these AI tools

9:58 as being kind of a net positive,

9:59 especially on the language front,

10:00 but I can't see how it could maybe be problematic

10:03 in light of what you just said about the tower of Babel.

10:06 - Well, I think there are lots of things

10:08 that are gifts of God.

10:10 Technology is certainly one of them.

10:12 I think we can get too hung up on reading

10:15 into something what we think it is,

10:18 which can then take away the power that it could give us.

10:22 And like Joby's example,

10:24 how many people can he reach that speak Spanish

10:29 through this AI tool?

10:30 So I think it's dangerous to get hung up

10:33 on that kind of stuff,

10:35 because the Bible's pretty clear,

10:37 we don't know when that's gonna happen.

10:40 And there are loads and loads of people

10:42 who have tried to make a living out of telling us

10:45 when that has happened, spoiler alert,

10:48 they have not been right yet.

10:49 So I think we should be guarded with that kind of stuff,

10:53 but also God has given us technology.

10:56 I mean, just look at the world of medicine,

10:58 all the technology that it allows.

10:59 - Yeah, it's a great common grace.

11:00 - Yeah, absolutely.

11:01 So I don't know, look at it with some open caution,

11:05 I guess I would say.

11:06 - When I think as well, like not relying.

11:09 - Nailed it.

11:10 - Yeah, whenever we have dead air,

11:12 it's either because we're all dumb

11:13 or because someone just nailed it.

11:14 So like stories, jury's still out on that.

11:17 But I think it is okay to be cautious,

11:20 'cause I've cautioned people before

11:22 on don't let AI do your Bible studies for you,

11:25 because it's like AI is not sentient.

11:28 Everyone keeps talking about, oh, it's sentient,

11:30 it's like it is programmed,

11:32 and the people programming it are overwhelmingly atheist

11:35 and left wing, left leaning.

11:37 And so we saw with the early iterations of chat GPT,

11:41 if you said, hey, say something nice about Donald Trump,

11:43 they would say he couldn't do that,

11:44 say something nice about Joe Biden,

11:46 and he would just slobber all over the guy

11:47 for pages and pages.

11:49 And so it's like these things are determining

11:51 their outputs based on its inputs.

11:53 Now, because of quantum computing

11:55 and all these other different things,

11:56 could it eventually become godlike and sentient?

11:58 I don't know, but at the end of the day,

12:00 even if we can unplug it or re-plug it in

12:03 based on our own Wednesdays,

12:04 I think it's important for us to understand that,

12:06 look, this is trying to communicate something to you

12:08 and don't let whatever the AI tells you

12:11 to supersede what you would see in the scripture, right?

12:15 - Yeah, yeah.

12:16 Largely, I think AI is, I mean, it's big and,

12:19 I mean, a lot of people are, it's big and scary

12:21 because we all watch movies from the 1980s.

12:23 And so I would say, largely at this point,

12:28 AI is a marketing term for automation.

12:33 It sounds more cutting edge.

12:35 It sounds more advanced.

12:41 Then just, yeah, we're able to program things

12:43 and this can automate this

12:45 because it's got this programming language behind it.

12:48 And then when they figure out,

12:49 oh, it can't do that, what do they do?

12:51 Well, I report that it can't do that

12:53 and then they go and program something else in.

12:56 So largely at this point, it's still,

12:59 it's not thinking for itself.

13:01 I think everybody at this table would say,

13:03 well, artificial intelligence,

13:05 I look at it almost as its man's ability

13:09 to actually create in a microcosm

13:12 in the same way that God has created,

13:15 meaning that I am actually able to create

13:18 an intelligent being.

13:20 We aren't there yet.

13:22 I don't know that we'll ever get there.

13:24 It's kind of like, why can't we recreate the human eye?

13:27 It's impossible to do.

13:30 You lose an eye, you've lost an eye.

13:31 They can't create something that looks like

13:34 and functions as an eye would.

13:36 I can't see that AI could become a stumbling block

13:39 for a lot of people.

13:40 I was recently hearing Willie Robertson

13:41 of Duck Dynasty fame talking about,

13:43 he rolls in a lot of circles with a lot of famous people

13:46 and we were actually just kind of talking about

13:47 that a little bit off here.

13:48 He's kind of like you, Terry,

13:50 that he's just not that impressed with people

13:51 that are famous 'cause they're just people

13:53 at the end of the day.

13:53 And when you're around more famous people,

13:54 you realize how seemingly normal they are.

13:57 They're like a lot of the rest of us.

13:59 But when you tell someone that's destitute,

14:01 the next life will be so much better than this one.

14:04 The level of hope that they feel is substantial

14:06 because of their plight here on earth.

14:08 But when you tell someone that's got 10 acres of zoysia grass,

14:12 circling their 8,000 square foot mansion and all their cars

14:15 and all their other different people looking at them

14:17 and laughing at their jokes when they're not funny,

14:19 it's not as interesting to them,

14:21 but I do see AI kind of being sort of like that.

14:24 Like, hey, why do I need this antiquated book of fables

14:27 when I can literally just talk into my phone

14:29 or talk into my chip that's been inserted into my brain

14:32 and just get all the data points I need

14:34 to get all the arguments that I need.

14:36 And we've seen this kind of working out

14:38 and then we'll get off the AI thing.

14:39 But a lot of teachers and professors are having trouble

14:42 like figuring out whether or not their kids are actually

14:44 learning because they're just basically regurgitating

14:47 what the AI has told them to do.

14:49 There are some teachers that have found really interesting

14:51 ways of getting around that to know if these things

14:54 are coming from chat GPT or not.

14:56 But it's just something for also to kind of keep in mind

14:58 as we move forward thinking about things like that.

15:00 But I think we should focus more on the common grace

15:02 as opposed to thinking that everything is the anti-Christ.

15:05 I think that would be helpful for us.

15:06 All right, Terry, since we're about to get into Peter's

15:09 first sermon, I need you to use your most robust

15:13 sermon voice, which you already have naturally

15:15 to read the first chunk here.

15:17 So let's get into verses 14 through 21.

15:20 - But Peter, standing with the 11,

15:23 lifted up his voice and addressed them.

15:26 Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem,

15:28 let this be known to you and give ears to my words.

15:32 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose,

15:34 since it's only the third hour of the day,

15:37 but this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel.

15:40 In the last days, it shall be, God declares,

15:43 that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh,

15:46 and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

15:49 and your young men shall see visions,

15:51 and your old men shall dream dreams,

15:54 even on my male servants and female servants.

15:56 In those days, I will pour out my spirit,

15:59 and they shall prophesy.

16:01 And I will show wonders in the heavens above,

16:03 and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke.

16:08 The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood,

16:11 before the day of the Lord comes,

16:13 the great and magnificent day.

16:16 And it shall come to pass,

16:17 that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord

16:21 shall be saved.

16:22 - Okay, I want to focus in real quick on verse 21.

16:25 Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

16:27 I immediately thought of Matthew 721,

16:29 not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter

16:31 the kingdom of heaven,

16:32 but one who does the will of my father in heaven.

16:35 So Peter is looking at Joel 2, he's quoting Joel 2 here,

16:40 but that caused a little confusion for me,

16:42 so I don't know if you had something

16:44 that you could clarify for me,

16:45 because I was like, wait a minute.

16:46 Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,

16:48 and then it's like, not everyone who says to me,

16:50 Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven.

16:51 I know that that's not a direct contradiction,

16:53 but it caused me to pause a little bit.

16:55 - That's a great question.

16:57 Obviously, this is a quotation from Joel.

17:00 So we're talking Old Testament,

17:02 we're talking before the time of Jesus,

17:04 and it's really worth thinking about today

17:08 when we say somebody calls upon the name of someone,

17:11 it's not quite the same as what they were meaning.

17:13 So what does it mean in Joel's time

17:15 to call upon the name of the Lord?

17:17 It means where are you gonna put your hope and your trust?

17:20 You might call on the name of Pharaoh of Egypt

17:22 to save us from the Assyrians,

17:24 or you might call upon the name of Babylon

17:27 to save us from the Egyptians.

17:29 In other words, who are you gonna turn to to do that?

17:33 And so that phrase very much talks about

17:36 where's your hope and your trust gonna be placed?

17:38 And as you really pointed out very astutely,

17:41 Kyle and Matthew, that's not quite the same thing we're seeing.

17:45 It's like everyone who says me,

17:46 oh, you're my Lord, but I'm not gonna do what you say.

17:48 Well, now you see the disconnect.

17:50 Oh, you're not really calling on the name of the Lord.

17:52 It's clearly not your hope, but I think that's a rich phrase

17:56 calling on the name of the Lord and understanding it is,

17:59 I'm throwing myself on you because I have no other hope.

18:03 - Well, that's a great way to elucidate it

18:04 because here in Oklahoma, it's, oh, I'm a Christian,

18:07 but I don't really live that out.

18:09 And so it's like, if you were put on trial

18:11 and the charge was being a Christian,

18:12 you probably wouldn't be convicted,

18:14 but you were born in Oklahoma.

18:15 So you have country music theology,

18:17 which means I listened to country music.

18:18 I occasionally vote Republican

18:20 and I was born on this red clay.

18:21 So I'm a Christian, you know, by den to birth type of a thing,

18:23 which becomes problematic.

18:24 But Matt, this section, I think might be a good time

18:26 to bring up what you were talking about on our last break,

18:29 which is whenever you were digging into Acts two,

18:31 you were just kind of overwhelmed by singular thoughts.

18:33 So I wanted to hit that here.

18:34 - Well, I think it's kind of made in passing,

18:36 but it talks about they were filled by the Holy Spirit.

18:40 And I don't know, for me, the Holy Spirit has always kind

18:43 of been a really hard topic to grapple with.

18:46 And I think for a lot of people,

18:47 it ends up being like the third,

18:49 like the junior varsity third member of the Trinity

18:51 and towards like, okay, well, what is the Holy Spirit?

18:54 And so I, a great book that kind of goes into some

18:57 of the depth of the Holy Spirit,

18:58 along with the rest of the Trinity

18:59 is called Simply Trinity by Matthew Barrett.

19:01 And I was kind of reading some of that alongside here.

19:04 And some of the things that I took out of there

19:06 that were really helpful for me to understand

19:08 is that the Holy Spirit is eternally spirated

19:12 from the Father and the Son.

19:14 So He holds the one simple essence in common.

19:17 So He is God and He is the third person of the Trinity.

19:21 And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong here,

19:24 but I feel like a lot of times people kind of view Him as,

19:27 ah, He's just this weird, like kind of stepbrother

19:31 of the Trinity, that's probably not the right way

19:33 to put it, but people don't put the same amount

19:35 of reverence when talking about the Holy Spirit

19:39 as they would the Father and the Son.

19:41 - Yeah, I think so too.

19:43 You know, maybe here's an analogy and it may be,

19:45 maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, but there are a number

19:48 of ways to fella tree.

19:50 And so one way would be you take an axe and you go out

19:53 and you hit it and you chop the tree down, okay?

19:56 Another way would be is a hurricane comes

19:58 and the wind blows it over.

20:00 One of those you can see, one you can't,

20:02 and they're both really, really powerful.

20:04 And so that's just one way, 'cause I'm with you, Matt,

20:07 it's harder to get our arms around that.

20:10 It's easy for me to think of the axe.

20:12 Harder for me to think of the wind.

20:13 And yet there's power in both of them,

20:15 but they work in really different ways.

20:17 - Well, and like the Holy Spirit is like the one

20:20 that the Father is working through.

20:23 The Son is working through.

20:24 Like we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

20:26 Jesus tells us like, I'm like in John,

20:29 he says things like, or when he's speaking to his disciples,

20:33 I don't know if this is specifically John.

20:34 I think it is like, if you love me,

20:37 you'll keep my commandments and those who keep my commandments

20:39 love the Father, so the Father will love them

20:42 and I in turn will love them.

20:43 And then he goes on to say, how do you keep my commandments?

20:46 Well, I will send a helper to help you keep the commandments.

20:50 The Holy Spirit is coming to help you.

20:53 And that is where we like are moved to one,

20:58 call in the name of Jesus because we need to save you.

21:00 We are moved by the Holy Spirit.

21:01 And then throughout our life through sanctification,

21:04 we are drawn by the Holy Spirit.

21:05 And I think sometimes we just get lost

21:08 or we just forget about that.

21:10 And so this has been really helpful for me

21:12 to kind of just think through some of those things

21:15 'cause it's really hard to think about,

21:16 but they're very important to think about as well.

21:19 - Well, I would certainly echo that

21:20 'cause I've heard it said before,

21:22 like, oh, the Holy Spirit's kind of the Ringo

21:24 of the Trinity.

21:25 And it's like, okay, well, here's the thing, Ringo sucks.

21:28 Okay, so let's just admit it, like Ringo's the worst

21:30 and like, let's just go ahead and say it.

21:32 The Beatles might be the most overrated band ever.

21:34 Shots fired, hit me in my comment section,

21:36 just gonna say it right out.

21:37 But the thing about it is like, if you think that way,

21:40 you're gonna put the Holy Spirit

21:41 in this subservient position.

21:44 And again, go back to what Jesus said, you know,

21:47 in Acts one where he's talking about like,

21:48 hey, you know, you were baptizing with water,

21:51 now we're being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

21:53 It's like, this is a very, very important thing,

21:55 even though it's very, very hard for us to see.

21:57 And that's what, whenever I speak live to people,

21:59 I always talk about spiritual, mental, physical resilience.

22:01 Well, physical resilience is the thing I can see with my eyes.

22:04 Because if somebody is morbidly obese,

22:05 I can pretty much tell that they're not really

22:07 taking care of themselves physically, right?

22:10 But I can't really just by looking at them,

22:12 see mental resilience or spiritual resilience.

22:14 You're gonna have to talk to them.

22:15 You're gonna have to be in relationship with them.

22:17 You're gonna have to see them

22:18 while they're walking through the valley of the shadow of death.

22:20 Like, what do they default to?

22:22 Because again, there are people that work out,

22:24 you can see them at the gym and it's not really

22:26 that big a deal, but I think that's an important thing

22:27 as well to where it's like, okay, it's easy.

22:29 It was easy for the apostles to see Jesus

22:31 and to see the miracles.

22:33 But now they're trying to be like, okay,

22:34 what is this Holy Spirit thing that we're working through?

22:37 And as we see with Peter,

22:39 like this was not an astute, educated man,

22:42 and here he is doing these public sermons

22:44 and he's using it via the Holy Spirit.

22:45 Like, that's what was fueling him.

22:46 - When he later goes on to write,

22:48 like the Spirit is drawing and inspiring

22:52 the very word of God.

22:54 Spirit was there in creation,

22:55 the Spirit is drawing and inspiring

22:58 and revealing the word of God.

23:00 And I don't know, that's something that I've just never,

23:04 I've always been kind of the,

23:05 he's kind of this this weird, mysterious third part

23:08 of the training, it's kind of not quite as cool

23:10 as Jesus or the Father, but I really like,

23:12 I want to leave you guys with one more quote

23:14 on the Holy Spirit, it's from Augustine on the Trinity.

23:16 He says, "The Spirit is the gift of God,

23:19 "and so far as he is given to those he is given to,

23:21 "but in himself he is God,

23:23 "even if he is not given to anyone because he was God,

23:26 "co-eternal with the Father and the Son,

23:28 "even before he was given to anyone,

23:30 "nor is he less than they because they give

23:32 "and he is given, he is given as God's gift

23:36 "in such a way that as God he also gives himself."

23:40 And so again, I just kind of wraps up,

23:42 the Spirit is God and you can't separate that.

23:46 They are distinct, but the Spirit is God.

23:49 - I want to tack on one other thing in terms of it,

23:51 not being the stepchild here, okay?

23:53 The Holy Spirit, the one unforgivable sin

23:58 that we are outlined in the New Testament

24:00 is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

24:03 You can blaspheme God, you could blaspheme Jesus

24:05 and be forgiven for that.

24:08 You cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be forgiven.

24:11 The other thing is every single act of righteousness

24:13 on this planet, every single one comes from the Holy Spirit.

24:17 - No, it's an important thing to think about.

24:21 I mean, we could literally sit here for the rest of the time,

24:22 just kind of trying to unpack that.

24:25 We do need to move through because believe it or not,

24:27 there's even more dramatic things that we need to discuss,

24:29 but we're gonna get to the next section here.

24:31 So, Matt, if you wouldn't mind,

24:32 let's read some more of Peter's sermon here.

24:34 So let's go verses 22 through 35.

24:37 - Men of Israel, hear these words.

24:40 Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God

24:44 with mighty works and wonders and signs

24:46 that God did through him in your midst.

24:48 As you yourselves know, this Jesus delivered up according

24:52 to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God,

24:55 you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

24:58 God raised him up, losing the pangs of death

25:01 because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

25:04 For David says concerning him,

25:06 I saw the Lord always before me,

25:08 for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken.

25:11 Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue rejoiced.

25:14 My flesh also will dwell in hope,

25:16 for you will not abandon my soul to Hades

25:19 or let your holy ones see corruption.

25:21 You have made known to me the paths of life,

25:24 you will make me full of gladness with your presence.

25:28 Brothers, I may say to you with confidence

25:30 about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried

25:34 and his tomb is with us to this day,

25:36 being therefore a prophet and knowing that God

25:39 had sworn with an oath to him,

25:42 that he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection

25:44 of the Christ that he was not abandoned to Hades,

25:47 nor did his flesh see corruption.

25:50 This Jesus, God raised up and that we all are witnesses,

25:54 being therefore exalted at the right hand of God

25:57 and having received from the Father,

25:59 the promise of the Holy Spirit,

26:01 he has poured out this that you yourselves

26:03 are seeing and hearing.

26:04 For David did not ascend into the heavens,

26:06 but he himself says, the Lord said to my Lord,

26:10 sit at my right hand until I make your enemies,

26:13 your footstool.

26:14 - So a big part of this section here is Peter's like,

26:16 hey, you know, David, the guy that all of you know about

26:19 that you've memorized his Psalms

26:20 and you've memorized his story and everything about him?

26:22 Yeah, dude is dead dead.

26:23 He's like super dead.

26:25 And so I've heard it said before

26:26 people are talking about Buddha are talking about

26:28 any of these other founders,

26:29 and you know, talking about Muhammad.

26:30 And it's like, yeah, these dudes are dead dead.

26:32 Like we can take you to where their bones are,

26:34 kind of a thing.

26:34 And it's like, there is a wholly different thing

26:36 that we're seeing like WHOLY.

26:38 There's a wholly different thing that we're seeing

26:40 with Jesus of Nazareth in whose name I am here

26:43 speaking on behalf of.

26:44 And so I thought that was important

26:45 because again, he's talking to a mixed audience

26:48 of, you know, Gentiles and Jews and in people at this time.

26:52 And he's talking to them in the language

26:55 that they understand.

26:56 And that's the Davidic language of,

26:58 hey, you understand this story,

26:59 but you have to know that he has been replaced.

27:02 Replaced is probably not the right word,

27:03 but he is just a, you know, a forerunner or a footnote

27:08 in the story of King Jesus, right?

27:10 I mean, is that how y'all would see that?

27:12 'Cause that was the thing that stood out to me

27:13 in this section.

27:14 Yeah, for all of David's like good works

27:17 and the things that he did and God called him

27:19 a man after his own heart, he's still dead.

27:22 He still died.

27:23 He doesn't, he didn't raise from the dead.

27:25 And he didn't, he didn't die for our sins.

27:28 So like they held David in such a high esteem.

27:32 I think he's trying to say, hey, for all David did,

27:37 Jesus is even more than you could comprehend.

27:40 And so that's who, that's where we should put our trust.

27:44 Yeah, I love the way he links it in their mind.

27:47 I think he's preaching to Jews and he says,

27:49 you guys all know David, you know what his prophecy?

27:52 He knew he said what God promised to him,

27:54 what David said.

27:55 And here is this Jesus, a descendant of David,

27:59 greater than David, both Lord and Christ.

28:01 I love the way he connects it to their experience.

28:04 Yeah.

28:05 Anything else?

28:07 The next section is the one where we start

28:09 to really light it up.

28:10 And so it's like, you know, this is the calm

28:11 before the storm, anything else?

28:13 Well, I mean, I have a couple of things

28:15 I want to hit on here, but it's not on the same theme.

28:17 So I mean, one of the things that I kind of keep looking

28:21 at here is you start looking at all of the prophecies

28:23 that Jesus, or that Peter's bringing back

28:26 and saying like, look how this ties into Christ.

28:29 Look how this ties into Christ.

28:30 And I was watching something on YouTube

28:35 that was talking about the probabilities

28:37 of the number of prophecies that he fulfilled

28:41 from the Old Testament and Jesus being who we know who he is.

28:46 And if he was just to fulfill eight of those prophecies,

28:52 if you marked a silver dollar and it was two feet deep

28:55 and it would fill up the pay to stay in Texas.

28:57 And then I think it was 48 was like every ball,

29:00 every atom, create a ball of every atom in two universes.

29:04 And that's 48.

29:05 And it was over 300 that he satisfied.

29:09 So the mathematical probability of Jesus not being

29:14 the Messiah from the Old Testament that is being referenced

29:17 is basically incomprehensible.

29:20 - Yeah, I think that's important because I think

29:22 Strobel, he talked about that in his book,

29:25 The Case for Christ, where it was like F,

29:28 the odds of him fulfilling a certain number.

29:29 Like if you cover the state of Texas

29:31 and silver dollars two feet deep

29:33 and you put a blindfold on a guy and have him walk out,

29:35 it would be the odds of him bending over

29:36 and picking up that one that had an X on it.

29:38 Like it's those types of things that's incomprehensible.

29:40 And it's when you talk to atheists or agnostics

29:42 and you kind of get there, you get them to answer

29:45 the four main questions, which is origin,

29:46 meaning morality, destiny, origin,

29:48 where does everything come from?

29:49 Meaning why is anything here, morality,

29:51 what's the difference between good and evil

29:52 and destiny, where do you go when you die?

29:53 And it's like, wait a minute, you think I'm crazy

29:56 for believing in this handful of miracles

29:58 that is elucidated here in this text?

30:00 The level of miraculous that you have to believe in

30:03 is astonishing. - Yeah.

30:04 - And you with your mathematical background theory,

30:06 like that's obviously something that I think is helpful

30:09 for people as we get into, okay, what is it

30:11 that helps people see the glory and grandeur

30:14 of the gospel message, which I think will carry us

30:17 into this next section here.

30:18 So let's keep that going. So, Jake,

30:19 if you would read verses 36 through 41,

30:22 'cause there's two really huge things

30:23 that I think we should talk about here.

30:26 - Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain

30:29 that God has made him both Lord and Christ,

30:32 this Jesus whom you crucified.

30:35 Now, when they heard this, they were cut to the heart

30:38 and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles,

30:40 "Brothers, what shall we do?"

30:41 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized.

30:44 "Every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ

30:47 "for the forgiveness of your sins,

30:49 "and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

30:52 "For the promise is for you and for your children,

30:55 "and for all who are far off,

30:57 "everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.

31:00 "And with many other words, he bore witness

31:02 "and continued to exhort them, saying,

31:05 "Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

31:08 "So those who received his word were baptized,

31:10 "and they were added that day about 3,000 souls."

31:14 - So this section, I felt like Ryan Horn,

31:15 'cause I was basically highlighting the entire thing.

31:18 If you don't get the references,

31:19 because one time I looked over Ryan's shoulder

31:21 and the entire section was highlighted.

31:22 I was like, "Brother, you could have just wrote

31:23 "in the margins.

31:24 "This is all awesome, as opposed to--

31:25 "This whole Bible is highlighted."

31:27 - Yeah, it's like, bro, we get it.

31:28 It's important, but all the words are important, Ryan.

31:30 But two big things, so I certainly want to talk about

31:34 election and certain things like that.

31:35 But the first thing I want to talk about

31:36 is the requirement of baptism for salvation.

31:39 And the reason why this is important to me

31:41 is because my wife and I now,

31:43 she comes from a small town church of Christ background.

31:46 And when they talk about the narrow path

31:48 like that leads to salvation,

31:49 they think that that's talking about them.

31:52 And I don't mean them being Christians,

31:53 them being church of Christ,

31:54 conservative Christians that go to a church Christ

31:58 in a small town, right?

32:00 And so they are very, very big on baptism being essential.

32:03 When you ask them things about like,

32:05 okay, well, what about the thief on the cross?

32:06 What about if someone has led to salvation

32:09 and on the way to the baptismal,

32:10 like they have an aneurysm and they just like,

32:13 cut over dead is like,

32:14 is the fact they didn't get into the water problematic?

32:17 But I think that's part of the problem

32:18 is when you look at just one scripture,

32:20 repent and be baptized,

32:22 and you base your entire argument on one scripture,

32:24 you're not letting scripture in its totality speak to you

32:27 because I forget who did it.

32:28 I would like to give him credit,

32:29 but they were talking about how there's different breakdowns

32:32 in the scripture.

32:33 So one is talking about salvation through faith alone.

32:35 We see that in John 3, 16, Acts 16, 31, Romans 10, 9,

32:40 and Ephesians 2, 8, 9.

32:41 But then we see it described as repentance alone

32:44 in Luke 24, 47, Acts 3, 19, Acts 5, 31, Acts 17, 30,

32:49 in Second Corinthians 7, 10.

32:52 And then the only place we see it really elucidated

32:54 as both is in Acts 20, 21.

32:57 But Terry, I actually wanted you to kind of speak

32:58 on this a little bit because I find it problematic.

33:01 Again, when people look at one scripture,

33:03 completely out of context in a handful of words to say,

33:06 you know, it says right there, repent and be baptized.

33:08 What's wrong with you?

33:09 You can't have salvation unless you're baptized.

33:12 And then other people will make arguments in the negative,

33:14 but just overall this idea that baptism is essential

33:18 versus being just a display of something that's a,

33:21 you know, public declaration of something

33:23 that you believe internally.

33:25 - Yeah, so full disclosure, I became a Christian

33:27 in a church of Christ in a little town in Kentucky.

33:30 - There you go.

33:30 - Perfect one to talk about it.

33:31 - Definitely came to that.

33:34 And here's the way I would characterize this,

33:36 is if you read the whole of scripture,

33:39 the whole of the New Testament, as you pointed out,

33:41 you get the idea of your saved by grace through faith.

33:44 You get the idea of repentance, the idea of baptism,

33:48 the idea of confession, those who confess with their mouth,

33:51 Jesus is Lord, you know, will be saved.

33:53 So how do you make sense of that?

33:55 Well, there are a couple of ways to do it.

33:56 And the way that the church of Christ traditionally has done it.

34:00 I say this so that I don't malign any one's particular belief,

34:03 but this is the traditional church of Christ

34:05 is we're gonna do it, their hermeneutic is,

34:07 we're gonna add them all together.

34:08 In other words, you gotta do them all.

34:10 And so that's where you get the confession

34:13 is when I became a Christian, it was believe, confess,

34:17 with your tongue, be baptized, you know,

34:20 you have to do all of those things.

34:22 Another way to understand it is,

34:24 and this is the way I came to,

34:26 I thought my way through that, studied my way through it

34:28 and rejected that hermeneutic, that approach to it.

34:31 I don't reject what the scripture says,

34:33 but I reject that way of thinking about it

34:35 and combining it is what you see here,

34:38 and particularly back to this verse,

34:39 is the idea of repentance is changing the road you're on.

34:42 And that's why God's grace, couldn't do it on your own,

34:45 but you now have an opportunity to change the path.

34:48 And then Paul later is gonna talk in more detail,

34:51 Romans chapter six about what does baptism really mean?

34:54 It is the death of your old self.

34:57 This isn't self-help, this is self-renewal regeneration.

35:01 And so I think that's the key idea for salvation,

35:04 is placing your trust, your hope, your future in Christ alone,

35:09 and the old self actually dies.

35:12 I think that is probably truer to the extent of scripture

35:17 and just simply taking each one of those,

35:19 put them all together and now I have a formula.

35:21 So there's a lot that could be said about that,

35:23 but maybe that approach is one to jump off of.

35:26 - I think that's good.

35:26 I think there's a lot of so far as you are able

35:30 to scripture, because if you are gonna rest your thoughts

35:35 and beliefs on that you must be baptized to be saved,

35:39 you make our Lord a liar.

35:40 And talking about the thief on a cross,

35:42 like that guy clearly wasn't baptized.

35:44 And Jesus said, today you will be with me in paradise.

35:47 - And they'll just say, oh, he was the exceptions.

35:48 - Like, come on, man.

35:50 - So when I say so far as we are able,

35:52 he clearly wasn't able to.

35:53 These men here who are hearing Peter preach,

35:57 they were able to be baptized

35:58 and they were commanded to do so because they were able to.

36:01 So I think there is a little element of,

36:04 well, I mean, that guy clearly couldn't be baptized

36:07 'cause he was literally dying, so.

36:09 - That's a great point, Matt.

36:10 And skipping forward to, not very far,

36:13 but the did-a-k is an early Christian document,

36:16 not inspired, not in the Bible,

36:18 but probably into first century,

36:20 very beginning of second century.

36:22 And it tells you how the Christians did a lot of things.

36:25 And the way they did baptism is they understood

36:28 that if there was enough water, you should be submerged.

36:32 If there was not, you could be sprinkled

36:35 or poured water over you.

36:37 They didn't think baptism was essential for your salvation.

36:42 However, the other side of that,

36:44 if I can just skip to that, one side says,

36:47 you have to be baptized or you're not saved.

36:49 The ditch on the other side of the road says,

36:52 baptism is just an optional thing that you do

36:54 to declare your faith.

36:56 That's also not correct.

36:57 Baptism is a command from Jesus.

37:00 And so we aren't going to contend

37:02 that if you aren't baptized, you can't be saved.

37:04 Well, scripture certainly contradicts that,

37:07 but we're also not going to say,

37:08 oh, it's an optional thing that you might choose to do

37:10 at some point.

37:11 No, you need to be baptized

37:13 and it is not essential for yourself.

37:15 You could hold both of those ideas.

37:17 I mean, what do you guys think about that?

37:18 - I like the way that Sproul put it.

37:20 He said, he wrote, and it's a mathematical equation,

37:25 so I geeked out on it, but justification plus works equals faith.

37:30 And the idea of, okay, justification,

37:35 Christ died on the cross for your sins,

37:37 there should be things we see out of that justification

37:43 if you are consumed by the Holy Spirit.

37:45 To me, I look at baptism as this is your first act.

37:50 This is the first thing that the Holy Spirit

37:53 is dragging you to do.

37:54 - Yeah, almost like first fruits.

37:56 - Right, exactly.

37:57 It's the first fruit we should see.

37:59 So, I mean, 'cause it is the symbolic death and rebirth.

38:04 It's that sharing in what Christ has done through,

38:14 it's the closest thing we can do.

38:16 So I look at it more as, I say this,

38:20 when I say justification plus works equals faith,

38:25 understand I'm not saying that works equals salvation.

38:28 It's that you cannot really have faith,

38:30 book of James, you cannot say that you have faith

38:33 and then have nothing to show for it.

38:36 - Well, it's kind of an orienting of where does it come from?

38:38 Am I acting in baptism to be saved?

38:41 Or am I saved?

38:43 And that is producing the act of baptism.

38:45 - There you go.

38:46 - Paul talks about even the Israelites were baptized

38:49 as they crossed the Red Sea.

38:52 Like that is in a sense of baptism that God commanded them

38:55 to cross the Red Sea.

38:56 And so, like I think it's just about how we orient,

39:00 like we're not acting to be saved

39:03 'cause then that's just works based.

39:06 We are coming from this place of salvation

39:08 that is drawing us to do the works like you're saying.

39:11 - When the one, again, I've talked about before,

39:13 like no one feels less saved

39:14 than after they listened to a John MacArthur sermon

39:17 on the assurance of salvation.

39:18 Like everyone feels like, "Oh, we're all going to hell.

39:19 "This is going to be fun."

39:20 But like I will say one of the benefits

39:22 of hearing him talk about it is like a fruit focus, I guess.

39:26 Like let's focus on the fruits.

39:27 One of the first fruits being baptism,

39:29 but also Terry, you know, you talk about these ideas

39:31 that are being held in tension.

39:33 We don't really like to do, I won't say we.

39:35 I don't like to do that because like,

39:36 I'm a black and white type of a guide either.

39:38 It either is this way or it's not this way.

39:40 All this mushy middle stuff, it's like make a decision.

39:42 But like one of the biggest ideas,

39:45 perhaps the biggest idea that we're supposed

39:47 to hold in tension in scripture is God's sovereignty

39:51 and our free will.

39:52 And I think that's, that comes up here in this section here

39:54 where it's like, was it verse 39?

39:56 "Everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

40:00 And so this has obviously been one of the bigger,

40:02 aside from the Ham Turkey debate,

40:03 which by the way, are you more of a Ham guy or a Turkey guy?

40:06 'Cause that's important.

40:07 - Oh man.

40:08 - And also the 14 table, like where do you land?

40:11 - I'm going to go with Turkey.

40:13 - Oh.

40:14 - Nice.

40:14 How all I like.

40:15 - I'm sorry.

40:16 - Well Bacon's making a comeback, but.

40:18 - No, Bacon has never needed a comeback.

40:20 Like Bacon has always been at the top of the charts,

40:23 but we don't necessarily have to go there.

40:25 'Cause this wasn't a port versus Turkey debate.

40:26 And so, okay, we don't have to go there.

40:28 But it's that tension, Terry,

40:30 that we've talked about a lot at this table.

40:32 We've had some very cordial conversations

40:34 and some conversations with our guys

40:36 that won't be named Ryan Horn left like very, very angry

40:39 at how the conversation went.

40:41 Because it feels like the sovereignty of God

40:43 versus the free will thing,

40:44 it becomes like a salvific issue for people

40:47 where it's like, if you don't believe the way

40:49 that I believe you are wrong and you are going to hell,

40:52 and I feel like some people do the same thing

40:54 with Young Earth to where it's like, okay,

40:55 you're either a young Earth person or an older person,

40:57 and you make that the center point of your salvation

41:00 and how you read the Bible.

41:01 So for you, 'cause we've talked about it a lot

41:03 and we're about to, how do you see that tension

41:06 of holding the sovereignty of God

41:08 and he can do whatever the heck he wants

41:10 versus like, hey, we have free will in the matter

41:13 in that he's not just going to take us kicking

41:14 and screaming to heaven.

41:16 - That's a great question.

41:17 Just here in chapter two, you're going to see that,

41:19 obviously brought out the scripture,

41:22 I'll make this observation.

41:23 The scripture doesn't seem to be stressed about this at all.

41:26 So in obviously chapter two,

41:29 you get back in verse 23, he talks about you,

41:33 Christ was delivered up according to the definite plan

41:36 and foreknowledge of God.

41:38 In chapter four, you're going to get

41:39 the actual predestination word show up.

41:42 So you've got this sense in the scripture

41:44 and then just a few verses later, they say,

41:47 what should we do?

41:48 In other words, what's our response?

41:50 And he says, well, you need to go, you need to repent

41:53 and you need to actually be baptized.

41:55 Well, wait a minute, which is it?

41:57 Is it God foreknowledge or is it be doing something

42:00 in a response?

42:01 And I think that's important idea is that it's in a response.

42:04 But the scripture seems to hold those two ideas

42:07 without any particular schizophrenia about it.

42:12 There's no tension on it.

42:14 I think we do because we come in that Western tradition

42:16 of black and white, yes or no, two-valued logic system.

42:20 But the scripture doesn't have tension

42:21 and I think we should probably relax about that a little bit.

42:23 - So Terri, I've never actually heard it explained that way

42:26 to where it's like, the scripture isn't seemingly stressed

42:29 about this because a lot of people are stressed about it

42:31 and I'm stressed about it as well.

42:32 And I've heard about people going up to pastors and saying,

42:34 like, hey, I'm really concerned that I'm not elect.

42:37 Like, can you help me understand if I'm in the club,

42:40 kind of a thing and then, you know, a problem

42:42 that I've brought up and a very big concern of mine

42:44 is because my wife and I took seriously the mandate

42:47 to be fruitful and multiply and because we enjoy the process

42:49 of doing what leads to multiplication,

42:51 we have two sons, what if they're not elect?

42:54 Did because we like to have fun,

42:56 like potentially lead to two souls

42:59 that are gonna spend eternity in torment and anguish.

43:03 And so that's the consternation that I have to where it's like,

43:06 okay, yes, sovereignty of God, but like, holy cow,

43:09 I really hope my boys are in the team, like on the team.

43:11 You see what I'm saying?

43:12 Like, that's the stress of real life application

43:15 of what you're saying, you know what I mean?

43:16 - Right, so here's a kind of an enigmatic statement

43:19 that the ancient rabbis used to say, the Pharisees,

43:24 the ones that understood the resurrection.

43:27 They said this, they said, all things are determined

43:32 and free will is given.

43:34 And you hear that and you think,

43:36 it makes no sense whatsoever,

43:37 but that's exactly what the scripture's saying,

43:41 is that God has indeed a plan.

43:43 He has indeed destined things

43:45 and you have a response to make.

43:48 And so I think, to me, these are less and less intention,

43:53 the more I think about it and the more I experience life

43:58 and I see the hand of God.

44:00 Here's what you have to remember is God's destiny for us,

44:05 God's foreknowledge and his plan for us is to be saved.

44:10 It's not like God is a neutral arbiter or judge like,

44:14 well, I don't know, I like one of your sons, God,

44:16 but I don't like the other one and, you know,

44:18 so one's elected and one's not.

44:19 That image of God isn't true to the scriptures.

44:22 The image of God is I want everyone to be saved.

44:26 And so the plan of God is indeed for everyone to be saved.

44:31 Now, we do have a response to make,

44:32 this is a Wesleyan point of view, by the way,

44:34 and it's a good way to think about it,

44:36 is the idea that we have a response

44:38 or we have something to do.

44:40 Even Calvinists understand the idea

44:42 of at least the appearance of will.

44:44 In other words, we are acting as well, we're not automata.

44:48 So I hear what you're saying,

44:50 but I think maybe one thing that helps that is,

44:52 is that God's election is based on his love and desire

44:56 that all would be saved.

44:58 So I parented as though I'm gonna provide,

45:02 here's a great example.

45:04 I'll credit this to my son, Colfax, great example.

45:07 We as parents, we put the wood on the fire

45:11 and we can do everything for that fire except the spark.

45:15 And that's what the Holy Spirit does, to light it into fire.

45:18 So you raise your kids as though I'm gonna give you

45:21 all the scaffolding and all the wood

45:23 so that God will light this fire

45:25 and he's a good and loving God and he wants to light that fire.

45:29 So one thing I've been thinking about and actually coming

45:33 from the fishing trip and talking to Cole,

45:35 'cause I got, let's just say I was wrestling

45:38 a handicap match against some intellectual superiors

45:42 that weekend, but one of the things that Cole said,

45:45 that fishing trip, when we were discussing the idea

45:48 of election and predestination,

45:50 he started off with like, do you have any heartburn

45:54 over the idea that we are predestined for hell?

45:59 Without the salvation of Christ.

46:02 And I was like, well, no.

46:05 And so I started thinking about it in terms of, okay,

46:07 well, and the idea of predestination with passive wrath

46:11 versus active wrath, is am I on to anything there

46:15 or am I just missing something?

46:18 - Yeah, that's a more reformed understanding

46:21 is that everyone is falling out of the sky.

46:24 I mean, this easy way to think about it is

46:26 people are all falling and we're going to go splat.

46:29 And honestly, we deserve to go splat.

46:32 God is rescuing us.

46:35 It's not that God is the one throwing us at the ground.

46:39 He is reaching out and rescuing us.

46:41 And that's where we're just in a pragmatic term

46:43 in a pastoral sense.

46:45 Maybe leave the theology for just a second.

46:47 I would say is don't forget the character of God,

46:50 that he loves you, he loves your kids

46:51 and he wants them to be saved.

46:53 - Yeah, I think that's a really important point to make.

46:56 Like even in Romans nine,

46:57 when Paul is talking about Jacob, I loved and Esai hated,

47:02 we get hung up on the Esai hated and we'd forget,

47:07 or it's easy to forget.

47:09 Like the most powerful part of that statement is,

47:13 Jacob, I loved.

47:15 And there it is.

47:17 Like God is love.

47:18 - Whose name mean deceiver?

47:20 - Yeah, well, but I think we get hung up

47:23 on the wrong part of that, where again,

47:25 the most important part of that is that God loved Jacob

47:28 and God loves us.

47:29 And that's, I mean, he delivers on his promises.

47:34 And we can rest in that, 100%.

47:36 - What do you have to say, Terry,

47:38 to, because I think you're right,

47:40 there are people that feel so fervently about this

47:43 that sometimes they miss the pastoral elements

47:45 or even just the legitimate elements of like,

47:46 hey, there's not as much tension here as you feel.

47:49 But you know, I've heard it said before, it's like, okay,

47:51 so you describe it as like, we're all falling out of the sky.

47:54 And so the way someone may be in cage stage would say it

47:57 is that, you know, God is swooping in and he's grabbing

48:00 his elect and if you're not elect, doesn't matter.

48:02 It's whatever, because I'm right.

48:04 But then you have some people that are like,

48:06 hey, you know, just try to do it.

48:07 You're not cage stage, you're fine.

48:09 Right.

48:10 They're sipping on an IPA with their mustache

48:11 and they're a cigar writer, it's like, I'm right, you're dumb.

48:15 - It's all beards in the cage stage.

48:16 - Right.

48:17 - And I'm the worst offender at the moment right now

48:19 at the table.

48:20 But then other people would say like, yes,

48:22 he is reaching his hand out for you,

48:24 but you have to reach back.

48:27 And so some people would say like, no, no, no, no.

48:29 You reaching back, if I acknowledge that,

48:31 I'm acknowledging that you had a hand in it

48:33 and only God is responsible for salvation.

48:36 So that is another point of consternation for me

48:38 where I want to be right.

48:40 Like more than anything, I want to be correct.

48:41 I want my thinking to be correct.

48:43 That's why I tell people on the show,

48:44 if you disagree with my opinion, save it.

48:46 I don't really care.

48:47 But if you, if I've stated something that's factually inaccurate,

48:50 I need to correct the record.

48:51 Like, and so that's my thing is I want to think rightly about it.

48:54 Like, is it just we're falling out of the sky?

48:57 We're already dead, but as God is swooping us up,

48:59 he's giving us life?

49:00 Or are we recognizing our plight?

49:02 And as he's reaching his hand out to us,

49:03 we reach out and grab it.

49:05 Like, you see what I'm saying?

49:06 - Yeah, I do.

49:07 And here are the theological schools on this.

49:10 I give you a couple of choices,

49:11 but, and then you can live with the consequences.

49:13 (laughing)

49:14 Here's one that is a lot of people believe

49:17 and is absolutely not biblical.

49:19 And it's kind of what I call the pop theology.

49:21 So you're falling out of the sky

49:23 and you know it's possible to be saved.

49:25 And so you build yourself set of wings

49:27 and you fly over to God.

49:29 You choose God, right?

49:31 That's, that's just not even slightly biblical.

49:33 No one, no major theology believes that.

49:36 So you don't build yourself some wings and fly over to God.

49:39 What the, the reform view would be kind of a heart,

49:43 you know, kind of a Calvinist view is that sovereignty

49:46 and God's election are the primary thing.

49:49 And so he reaches out and he grabs you

49:53 whether you want it or not and pulls you back.

49:57 And this is unconditional election,

49:59 your resistible grace, kind of an idea, pulls you back.

50:02 There's truth in that in the sense

50:04 that don't ever kid yourself that it's all God.

50:07 What the Westlands are gonna say

50:11 and are many inside roughly a package

50:14 that's painted with a broad brush is simply this.

50:16 God is gonna always reach out for you

50:18 and he reaches out for everyone.

50:20 And it's sort of like that pain by Michelangelo.

50:23 You remember how God is reaching out and Adam is,

50:26 Adam's laid back and he could easily touch God.

50:28 He just, not quite wanting to, right?

50:32 But that God reaches out for you

50:34 and you can respond to his hand.

50:37 You don't choose him.

50:38 You can respond and say, oh, thank you.

50:41 I'm gonna reach out and grab it.

50:42 It's like your child.

50:43 You hold your hand out, they can respond or not,

50:46 but they typically lovingly grab your hand

50:48 'cause they love you, they trust you, they want you.

50:50 That's more of a Westland idea.

50:52 Is it still all God?

50:53 And it's not your choice or your work.

50:56 It's your response.

50:58 Wesley would have said this,

50:59 response to God's grace.

51:02 So the natural tension there is, is, well, wait a minute.

51:05 You guys don't think it's all God.

51:07 Yeah, no, they really do think it's all God.

51:08 They just think you have a chance to respond to God.

51:11 So if you think about that,

51:13 there's not much difference in those two things.

51:15 And from a pastoral point,

51:16 so you may argue the theology all day.

51:18 And we've been arguing it for 500 years and that's great.

51:20 And pick what you want and I don't have heartburn.

51:23 It feels like that sometimes.

51:24 I don't have heartburn with it.

51:25 But from a pastoral point of view,

51:27 you have to say that yes, it is all God and God loves

51:31 every one of us.

51:32 So when it comes down to what it then shall I do,

51:36 raise my kids so that they will reach out and take God's hand.

51:40 If that makes any sense to you.

51:41 And that's a more pastoral moving out of the theological realm.

51:44 I understand the two theologies.

51:45 They're just not as far apart as we think they are.

51:48 Just like the scripture seems to be very comfortable

51:51 holding both of those things.

51:52 We're probably going to get to heaven and going to say,

51:54 God, was it Calvin or was it West leading goes, yeah.

51:56 Yeah, that's how Spurgeon puts it is the train tracks

52:01 and how they're right up next to each other.

52:05 And they seem like they're so far apart,

52:07 but they meet in eternity.

52:09 And the answer is just yes to both.

52:11 That's kind of the gist of what Spurgeon is saying there is.

52:15 - Well, and at the risk of sounding too ecumenical,

52:17 I really do want to come down and say,

52:19 what is not biblical is people today say,

52:23 well, are you Calvinist or are you not?

52:27 I mean, if you think about it, that's a big area

52:29 is it's one thing to not be Calvinist,

52:33 but you can't be pop theology.

52:36 You know, a lot of times that's just a formula for,

52:39 well, I'm not a Calvinist.

52:40 I believe in choice that I get to choose God.

52:43 Well, sorry, you're now outside the Bible altogether.

52:46 So there are two real streams of theology,

52:49 but that whole pop side is something

52:50 that just is not biblical at all.

52:52 - The way I understand it, Calvinists,

52:54 and I put myself in that camp, we believe in choice.

52:57 We just don't believe in our moral ability to save ourselves,

53:02 which I mean, again, it's kind of what you're saying.

53:05 Like we don't have the moral will to do that.

53:09 We have to, there is an outside source

53:11 that we must rely on to save us from eternal destruction.

53:16 - Well, and one thing, and we got to hit this last section

53:19 of Acts two, this is good fruitful discussion.

53:21 One thing that I am very aware of,

53:23 I forget what the phenomenon's called, but like,

53:26 so you buy a Ford Bronco and then all of a sudden,

53:28 you notice all the other Ford Broncos driving through town.

53:30 There's an actual like term for that, like in your brain,

53:34 some sort of fixation.

53:36 So as I'm digging through our Calvinist argumentation

53:39 and reform theology and all that,

53:41 as I'm reading through the Bible and I see, you know,

53:45 tendrils of that, I see like words like election

53:47 or chosen or a predestined or preordained or all that,

53:51 I'm trying to figure out categorically,

53:53 am I just now noticing those things

53:55 because I'm, you know, tuned up to look for them?

53:58 Or is that just something that I've been missing

54:00 this entire time?

54:01 And I will say for me, like I'm, I say this just generically

54:05 speaking with broad brush terms as well,

54:06 that I'm coming around more to reform theology

54:10 because of when I'm seeing something in the Bible

54:12 in context, not here's a cage stages, top 10 reasons

54:16 why I'm dumb and why I should believe these 10 things

54:18 and here it is and you either believe it

54:20 or you're going to hell, but like when I'm looking at it

54:23 in terms of the entire narrative of scripture

54:25 and what is trying to be communicated to me,

54:27 I feel like it is to a sense right there in front of us.

54:30 And there's one of those things I use that terminology

54:33 when it comes to young earth, old earth is like,

54:35 guys, when we get to heaven, we will clink our glasses

54:37 together and either they were right or they were right

54:40 and it doesn't matter 'cause it's not salvific.

54:42 This always felt a little bit more substantial to me

54:46 because I feel like if you think wrongly about salvation,

54:49 it could affect how you operate with your children

54:52 or with the people around you, if that makes sense.

54:55 You got some before we read this last section?

54:57 - I think a lot of times people can get so hung up

55:00 on right theology and how to look at it the right way

55:03 in Calvinism versus Westernism, whatever,

55:06 but what it all comes down to is we are all adopted

55:10 as sons in Christ, that's the most important thing

55:13 and that just kind of makes me think of Galatians 4-6

55:15 where Paul says, and because you are sons,

55:19 got a sense of spirit of his son into our hearts

55:21 crying out of a father, so you are no longer a slave

55:24 but a son and if a son, then an heir through God.

55:27 And so that's what we should rest in,

55:29 is that if Jake says, well I made Jesus the Lord of my life

55:34 or I say God snatched me out of eternity,

55:38 out of eternity, and that doesn't matter,

55:40 that we're both heirs through God and sons

55:43 of the king of the universe, that's what matters.

55:46 - Can I add one thing?

55:47 - Gosh, Jake, we're trying to move on, I guess.

55:49 Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

55:51 - I'm gonna give a shout out to Matt Carr right here

55:52 because this was one of the things that really helped me

55:55 with this, I think a lot of the discussion

55:57 in terms of election and predestination,

56:00 we are so limited in our thought process

56:03 by the linear concept of time.

56:07 And we are dealing with a God who operates

56:09 outside of space and outside of time.

56:12 So in a way, we can both be predestined

56:17 and still respond to God

56:20 because to God, it's all happening at once.

56:25 It's basically, you're not operating on this linear timeframe

56:28 when you're talking about God.

56:29 So this idea of like, well, it's at the beginning of time

56:34 he had his list of people who were getting in,

56:36 that's not even a thing that is occurring to God

56:39 'cause there's no concept of time.

56:41 - Well, go ahead, Matt.

56:43 That whole concept of us not understanding time

56:46 leads to some pretty heretical thing

56:47 is like Jesus being a creature and being created by,

56:50 'cause we say, oh, he was begotten.

56:53 Okay, well, so the God was there and then he had a son.

56:56 Like, well, no, outside of time and space,

56:59 he was eternally begotten from the Father.

57:01 So like us not having that like full understanding

57:04 can lead to some pretty heretical.

57:07 - Right, well, this ties into the creation narrative as well

57:10 because we believe that God exists outside of time,

57:12 space and matter.

57:13 And atheists believe that everything came into being

57:16 in a timeless, spaceless, immaterial way.

57:19 It's like none of that existed and now all of a sudden

57:21 it just poof, it just existed.

57:22 So I believe in a bunch of miracles,

57:23 you believe in one enormous miracle.

57:26 But hey, we gotta read this last section

57:28 and we're gonna put a pin in some of the big conversations

57:30 but Terry, since I like hearing you read out loud so much,

57:32 if you will read verses 42 through 47.

57:35 - Okay, remember where we came from?

57:37 The Israelites just heard the sermon

57:39 and 3000 of them were baptized.

57:43 And then they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching

57:46 and the fellowship to the breaking of bread and prayer.

57:49 And all came upon every soul

57:51 and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles

57:55 and all who believed were together

57:56 and they had all things in common

57:58 and they were selling their possessions and belongings

58:00 and distributing the proceeds to all as any had need.

58:03 And day by day, attending the temple together

58:06 and breaking bread in their homes,

58:08 they received their food with glad and generous hearts,

58:11 praising God and having favor with all the people.

58:15 And the Lord added to their number,

58:17 day by day, those who were being saved.

58:20 Who added the Lord did, so that kind of goes

58:22 to the last description.

58:23 You're welcome, Matt.

58:24 I knew you were gonna say it.

58:24 So I took the words right out of your mouth.

58:26 But we're gonna put a pin in the selling

58:28 their possessions discussion.

58:30 'Cause I think there is a robust discussion

58:32 that needs to be had about, is this an example

58:34 of socialism or communism?

58:36 Look, it's right there in the text.

58:37 So we'll get there.

58:38 I wanna go right back to verse 42 as we kind of wrap up here

58:41 because there are people, again, Terry and I,

58:44 you know, admitted that we didn't grow up in church.

58:47 And so whenever I was 15 years old,

58:50 here I am learning what it means to be a man

58:52 around the time I'm learning what it means to be a Christian.

58:54 And what does that look like?

58:55 And how do you do the Christian stuff?

58:57 Because it's like, all right,

58:58 I was looking around seeing what it meant to be a man.

59:00 And I kind of said, okay, here are the boxes

59:01 you need to check as a man.

59:03 But this gives it to us right here.

59:05 You're under teaching, you're fellow shipping,

59:07 you're breaking bread together and you're praying.

59:10 And so if you're looking at your Christian community,

59:13 whether it's your Sunday school,

59:15 which is what they should be called,

59:16 or your adult Bible fellowship,

59:17 which is what they called at my church,

59:18 which what is wrong with you guys,

59:19 what is an ABF, it's a Sunday school,

59:21 or if it's your home group or your life group

59:24 or your community, whatever it's called,

59:26 if you're not doing those four things,

59:28 something is out of whack.

59:29 That doesn't mean it's 25%, 25%, 25%, 25%.

59:33 It doesn't mean all of that.

59:34 But even Terry, before you got here,

59:36 you did a big prayer thing there on the end

59:39 because somebody close to you has gotten sick

59:41 and you and a group of your people got together

59:44 and you prayed over that person.

59:45 There wasn't a lot of teaching going on.

59:47 You're not sitting there having a theological discussion

59:49 'cause that wasn't the time.

59:50 You weren't breaking bread

59:51 'cause that also wasn't the time for that.

59:52 But you were fellow shipping in a kind of macabre way,

59:55 but you're also showing prayerful consideration

59:57 for what the community needed in that moment.

1:00:00 And so I think that this is an incredibly good thing

1:00:02 that you might miss as you focus on the other sections

1:00:05 of this little segment here of scripture.

1:00:07 But if you have to be under teaching,

1:00:09 you have to be fellow shipping, breaking bread,

1:00:11 and praying with one another,

1:00:12 this means you don't just go to church online.

1:00:14 No, that is not community.

1:00:15 Some people are really good, they don't really know.

1:00:17 What about, no, it is not community.

1:00:19 Like sending someone a DM is not the same

1:00:21 as seeing them in front of you.

1:00:22 They are not responsible for you and your care

1:00:26 if they can't actually reach out and touch you

1:00:28 in my humble opinion.

1:00:29 But this is just a great call out for people

1:00:31 that are having trouble figuring out

1:00:32 what is Christian community to me?

1:00:34 It's right there.

1:00:35 - I was gonna say, what an endorsement

1:00:39 for an in-person forging table Bible study.

1:00:43 I mean, when Matt and I meet on Wednesday mornings

1:00:47 with our group, I mean, there is a breaking of bread,

1:00:51 there is prayer, there is fellowship,

1:00:54 and there is teaching.

1:00:56 And it's all happening all at once.

1:00:58 To me, there is such spiritual growth that comes from that.

1:01:05 And I always say, when I go to Sundays

1:01:12 and I hear Terry teach and it's amazing.

1:01:15 And then my spiritual tank starts to run a little bit empty

1:01:19 by the time I get to the end of the day Tuesday.

1:01:21 Thank God for my 630 Bible study because it refills me.

1:01:26 And so I think that when you're looking at something

1:01:29 that how do I capture all this?

1:01:31 I mean, literally it can be captured

1:01:33 in an hour of scripture study once a week.

1:01:37 - Well, I think this reminds me and Jacob

1:01:40 are reading through the Acts commentary by R.C. Sproul

1:01:42 and talking about fellowship and being in a church

1:01:44 and being under church authority.

1:01:46 I really like the way he puts it.

1:01:48 He tells a story of a pastor who goes to have a conversation

1:01:51 with a parishioner who is derelict in his duty

1:01:54 to come to church and he's not been to church in a long time

1:01:56 and he's sitting with him in a picnic and he's asking him,

1:01:59 hey, why have you not been to church?

1:02:01 And he's like, well, I don't need church,

1:02:02 I just need Jesus essentially is the story that he's telling.

1:02:05 And the pastor just sits there and he's listening to him talk

1:02:07 and then there's a grill and there's a stack of coals

1:02:12 on the grill that they're gonna have hamburgers.

1:02:13 He goes over to the stack of coals

1:02:15 and he kind of messes it around with him.

1:02:17 He moves one coal off of the hot burning coals

1:02:19 and he moves it away.

1:02:20 And then 10 minutes later, he kind of looks back

1:02:23 and he says, well, look at this coal.

1:02:25 A coal has been away from the stack of coals

1:02:27 and so now it's not red hot anymore.

1:02:30 And it's this picture of if you're out of the church

1:02:32 and you're not in fellowship

1:02:33 and you're trying to do it all on your own,

1:02:35 you're not gonna have that red hot fire for God

1:02:38 and you're isolated and you're not tethered,

1:02:42 sorry to use that word,

1:02:43 to a church that's helping you through sanctification

1:02:48 and through working out your own salvation.

1:02:51 So I love that picture of if you take yourself

1:02:54 off the pile of coals, you're not gonna be red hot

1:02:56 pretty quickly.

1:02:57 - Yeah, Terry, wrap us up with your thoughts there

1:02:59 on Christian community and then we'll get out of here.

1:03:02 - Yeah, I think, let me just give you this teaser.

1:03:04 So you basically have a group of believers.

1:03:09 They're not a political organization.

1:03:12 They're not a military organization.

1:03:14 They're going to be under persecution

1:03:16 for the next 200 years and try to stamp out.

1:03:19 And yet, they're gonna radically change

1:03:21 the culture of the Roman Empire.

1:03:23 And at the end of the 200 years,

1:03:25 they will have toppled the Roman Empire.

1:03:28 What is it about the apostles teaching fellowship,

1:03:31 breaking of bread and prayers

1:03:33 that could accomplish something like that?

1:03:35 - Aren't you guys so excited for next week

1:03:37 because I am, I am just downright titillated.

1:03:39 Yes, I just said that guys,

1:03:41 we're gonna have to leave it there

1:03:42 but come back here next week

1:03:43 where we're gonna dig into Acts three.

1:03:45 So make sure you are read through Acts three.

1:03:46 So you're prepared for that.

1:03:48 But before we let you go,

1:03:48 we are gonna do a quick resilience boost.

1:03:50 Adam Donton life remission is equipping men

1:03:51 to push back darkness with content

1:03:53 that forges spiritual, mental and physical resilience.

1:03:55 I didn't mention it during the show

1:03:56 but we are partnered with Crossway and with Logos.

1:03:58 So if you have wondered what kind of materials do I need

1:04:00 to find when I start my own forging table,

1:04:02 Crossway has a forging table starter set.

1:04:04 You can get all of that information here in the show notes

1:04:06 and also the Logos Bible software.

1:04:08 There's no more powerful Bible software in existence

1:04:10 and you can get it at a discount

1:04:12 if you use the code here in the show notes.

1:04:14 And guys, we are a donation based ministry.

1:04:15 So if you're wondering how we can pull off things

1:04:17 like the forging table,

1:04:18 it's because we have like-minded guys and gals like you

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1:04:22 around the globe to push back darkness.

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1:04:32 If you want me to come speak live at your event

1:04:34 or on your podcast,

1:04:35 just shoot me an email to info@undonton.life.

1:04:38 That's I-N-F-O @undonton.life.

1:04:40 Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook

1:04:42 and check out our website for everything else,

1:04:43 including how to donate to keep more content

1:04:45 like this coming your way.

1:04:46 Just go to www.undonton.life.

1:04:49 And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name

1:04:50 for allowing us to use their music for our content.

1:04:53 The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua,

1:04:55 which is off their self-titled debut album

1:04:57 on Face Down Records.

1:04:58 The links are in the description.

1:05:00 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.

1:05:02 Remember, keep pushing back darkness,

1:05:05 keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience,

1:05:09 keep seeking the lion of Judah.

1:05:30 (upbeat music)