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1:18
This is Undaunted Life A Man's Podcast.
1:21
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:24
Let's get into it.
1:25
Welcome back to the Forging Table.
1:27
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:29
forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:32
At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys foraging spiritual resilience
1:35
by digging into God's Word, and whoa, whoa, I knew it was going to happen.
1:40
You know what?
1:41
We're just going to leave it in there.
1:42
So to our editor, leave it in there.
1:43
We make mistakes.
1:44
So we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.
1:47
We got the OGs in the house, Ryan and Eric Browning, and you're technically an OG now,
1:51
Jay, because you've got one of these under your belt.
1:52
You don't want to leave yet?
1:54
This isn't like, are you taking notes for later?
1:56
Like if we get into any type of like church hurt thing or like church, like, you know,
2:00
are you like taking notes on all three of us?
2:02
Yes.
2:03
Okay.
2:04
Perfect.
2:05
All right.
2:06
Fantastic.
2:07
I'm going to get some church discipline next week.
2:08
Yeah.
2:09
The church.
2:10
This one is going to come through and it's going to start with, well, they're violating
2:11
the first rule of faith Bible, which is calling it Sunday school as opposed to ABF guys.
2:13
We're just going to keep hitting that drum.
2:15
So if you don't like it, we're just going to keep hitting it.
2:16
But in all the kerfuffle of the first episode, I forgot to ask you the first questions that
2:21
we always ask everybody that is a first time we're on the forging table.
2:25
Everyone has to answer the same three questions.
2:27
So you get two minutes total to answer these three questions.
2:30
Okay.
2:31
So how did you become a Christian nailed it there?
2:34
Got time we're going.
2:35
Okay.
2:36
How did you become a Christian?
2:37
How do you like to study the Bible?
2:38
And how does your mind work ready to go became a Christian through the ministry of fellowship
2:44
with Christian athletes.
2:45
So it was in ninth grade, a guy named Doc Blevins led the FCA ministry at my junior high and
2:52
high school back in Oasso, Oklahoma.
2:55
He invested in me, took interest in me, made sure I heard and understood the gospel, took
2:59
me about a year to hear it out of his mouth.
3:02
And then things kind of finally clicked.
3:04
I realized I was a sinner, needed a savior, Jesus was a savior, I needed.
3:08
And yeah, extremely grateful for him and that ministry over the years.
3:13
Second question was how I studied the Bible.
3:15
So devotionally I live in the Psalms and Proverbs.
3:20
So that's my typical morning type reading.
3:26
Don't necessarily do deep dives, but read those, pray through what I've just read, usually
3:31
four or five Psalms and a proverb, do that on a monthly cycle.
3:35
So all the way through Psalms and all the way through Proverbs in the span of a month.
3:40
And that's just healthy from our spiritual life, start today, pray through those things.
3:47
On the study side, usually if I am studying, it's probably more for something to prepare.
3:53
And so an example of how I do study the Bible is I print off the text, 14 point font.
4:00
Boom.
4:01
There it is.
4:02
I'm an older gentleman, a space and a half or double spaced.
4:07
I go through, I read the text over and over and over and over again, don't memorize it,
4:12
but get it in my head.
4:13
Then I start marking things up, asking questions, looking up words, you know, trying to nail
4:20
down the trouble spots and understand it in a clearer way.
4:23
All right.
4:24
How does your brain work?
4:25
Are you a slow processor?
4:26
Are you like a, you know, quick thinker right on your toes?
4:31
I'm a slower processor, very analytical, so sometimes even bleed into paralysis of analysis.
4:39
But I would say that I've never been asked that question and I'm not even quite sure
4:46
how to answer it.
4:47
That means you're a slow processor.
4:48
And so basically, so I was actually curious as you were giving your answer, I was wondering
4:53
if that leads to your preaching style because you and Mark both are transcribers.
4:58
And so you, it seems like at the very least that y'all write out every single word of
5:02
your sermon and you kind of present, or that that's at least what you do.
5:06
Whereas I'm way more extniparaneous.
5:08
I know generally where I'm going, but I will have one word on my notes and then I'll have
5:13
the word flow next to it.
5:15
And I can go for five minutes on whatever that topic is because it's just in there.
5:18
And so every time I say it, it's a little bit different, but it seems like you and Mark
5:21
are a little bit more like, no, we're going to prepare this and we're going to, we're
5:25
going to shoot the arrow and it's going to be the same just about every time.
5:27
So how did you kind of like end up with that style?
5:31
I'm, I really value like the economy of language.
5:36
And if I don't transcribe, if I allowed myself to flow, I would repeat myself a lot and waste
5:43
a lot of time going back through things I've already said.
5:47
And so I think it's really important to say things you want to say and say it in the way
5:51
you want to say it.
5:52
And my best way to do that is by transcribing.
5:55
Now, when I transcribe a sermon, I've written it and gone over it and edited it and corrected
6:00
it and changed it so many times I don't have it memorized, but I can basically like finish
6:04
every sentence.
6:05
So hopefully it doesn't come across as if I'm reading it in a sort of stale way.
6:12
But yeah, I am a transcriber.
6:14
Mark's not quite a transcriber.
6:15
The only place I let myself flow is in any sermon I give.
6:19
Typically, there's a little bracketed section that just says gospel and, and I'm just going
6:25
to, I'm going to present a free offer of the gospel.
6:28
I'm not going to write that out.
6:29
I'm just going to just offer it and, and tell people to trust in Christ and kind of let
6:34
that go wherever it needs to go.
6:35
Yeah, we'll say that if someone were just to listen to one of your sermons, I don't
6:39
think they're going to be like, Oh, this guy is literally just, just reading.
6:41
So I think you do a good job of presenting it.
6:43
It is also interesting that what I find hard is because I'm, I'm typically a pretty jovial
6:48
guy.
6:49
I like to cut up and get people to laugh and I'm pretty sarcastic and those types of things.
6:52
But the more strictures I put on myself, the less I'm able to do that, like some comedians,
6:57
they write out everything.
6:58
And so they're writable funny for whatever reason.
7:01
I'm not writable funny.
7:02
I'm flow funny.
7:03
And whenever you do flow off of your notes, you can be really funny.
7:06
And so like that's, that's the other thing it's, it's usually towards the beginning part
7:09
of the sermon, but you'll kind of like let yourself get away from your notes for just
7:12
a little bit.
7:13
And so I'm like, I wonder, I have thought about doing this.
7:15
I'm not going to do it, but I have thought about it about right before you get up there.
7:19
It's like right during the last song, just being like, Hey, Jay, how you doing?
7:21
And just jacking your notes and taking off running.
7:24
That's a fear.
7:25
That is a great fear of mine.
7:26
There's no way for you to catch me in time.
7:29
Like you got to get started in the next seven seconds.
7:31
He's got huge calves.
7:32
And then what would I know that's going to weigh him down.
7:35
That's like it keeps from the aerodynamics of being able to chase me down.
7:39
So the funny thing is, is, is it's hilarious.
7:42
So Mark has a really good sense of humor, but Mark's not funny.
7:49
You understand the difference?
7:50
Yeah.
7:51
Yeah.
7:52
He knows what's funny, but it doesn't just flow out or flow out of him.
7:56
So I'll have people say, Oh, you're so funny.
7:58
And I'm like, well, Mark's jokes are better than mine.
8:01
And that's because they're so well curated.
8:04
Like he goes and looks for like the perfect joke for the perfect scenario.
8:07
So anyway, he has great jokes, but maybe perhaps I'm funnier, but then he delivers it
8:11
and then he has us to laugh.
8:12
We never, there's never, there's never like, can I get an amen?
8:15
It's always like, you guys going to laugh at that?
8:17
Yeah.
8:18
It's like Jeb Bush back in the day.
8:19
It's like, you guys can clap now.
8:20
Go ahead.
8:21
So just saying that were to happen, let's say I did jack your notes and then Ryan and
8:27
Eric stood in between you and me.
8:29
So there was no chance you've been able to get through that, you know, blocking and tackling
8:33
to get to me.
8:34
What would you do in that moment?
8:35
Cause you can't, you can't be like, excuse me.
8:37
We need to stop that man.
8:38
I got to get my notes back.
8:39
Like, what would you do?
8:40
Uh, I'd go print off another set or I'd just get up there and, and go and go for it and
8:46
follow my face in the sermon to be about 12 minutes long.
8:49
I don't think so.
8:50
I think it might be something that maybe we're trying.
8:52
I'm not, again, I'm saying that I'm not going to be the one to do it, but I might hire
8:56
someone a few years ago.
8:58
There was this whole preach without notes, no notes trend in pastor circles and it was
9:04
just funny to see kind of the guys who were very, very, like, I don't know, almost self
9:10
righteous about being able to step up their no notes.
9:13
Like this is the way to do it.
9:15
This is where the spirit really works.
9:17
Um, anyway, I felt quite condemned during that whole season of, of debate, but I'm a
9:24
notes guy.
9:25
And Kyle does now too.
9:26
I know.
9:27
But what's funny is so Philip de Corsi, yeah, who I think has been the biggest influence
9:33
on marks preaching in his entire ministry career.
9:36
Um, I watched marks preaching go from, um, really good to great as he developed this,
9:42
this, uh, friendship with Philip, Philip's an extremely good preacher.
9:46
Um, and it's not just because he has that, that Irish accent is, he's just, he's just
9:51
very skilled at what he does, but he's a transcriber, which I take great.
9:56
Yeah.
9:57
Comfort in.
9:58
I will tell you that anytime you have an accident, it adds like 15% to your overall
10:02
believability and likability and so like intelligence.
10:05
Yeah.
10:06
I just take that down.
10:07
I was like, look, you're not going to fool me with that Irish accent.
10:10
Get the heck out of here.
10:11
You Phillips.
10:12
Awesome.
10:13
Yeah.
10:14
He is solid.
10:15
So again, guys, you should definitely check him out, but we're going to dig in to ax 18.
10:17
So, uh, Browning, let's go ahead and get right into it here.
10:20
Yeah.
10:21
We're not starting with you first this time.
10:22
Good.
10:23
Thank you.
10:24
A little bit of a break.
10:25
You have to read the rest of the Bible every time you're on the 40 table.
10:26
How about that?
10:27
All right.
10:28
Browning.
10:29
Go ahead and read the first 11 verses of ax 18.
10:30
Roger.
10:31
Yeah.
10:32
After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth and he found a June named McQuillah, a native
10:37
of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife, Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded
10:43
all the Jews to leave Rome and he went to see them and because he was of the same trade,
10:49
he stayed with them and worked for they were tent makers by trade.
10:54
And he reasoned in this synagogue, every Sabbath and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.
11:00
When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word testifying
11:07
to the Jews that Christ was Jesus.
11:10
And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, your
11:15
blood beyond your own heads, I am innocent.
11:19
From now on, I will go to the Gentiles and he left there and went to the house of a man
11:24
named Tiscus, justice, a worshiper of God, his house was next door to the synagogue.
11:31
Christmas, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord together with his entire household
11:36
and many of the Corinthians, hearing Paul believed and were baptized.
11:41
And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do
11:47
not be silent, for I am with you and no one will attack you or harm you.
11:53
Remember I have many in this city who are my people.
11:57
So in going read 11 as well.
11:59
Oh, and he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
12:04
So there's quite a bit here in this first section, but to set the context, I remember
12:08
when Mark just recently did a sermon this summer, because we kind of did a little small acts
12:12
sermon.
12:13
I thought Mark did a great job of kind of setting the stage for showing that Corinth was kind
12:17
of the Las Vegas of its day, but it was really an economic powerhouse in this area.
12:21
So if Athens was the intellectual powerhouse and the intellectual center of this area of
12:25
the world, then Corinth would have been, you know, one of these in terms from a commercial
12:29
side.
12:30
So it was a boom town.
12:31
It was very wealthy.
12:32
None of the buildings in this city were more than a hundred years old.
12:36
And so if you look at something, you know, like Philadelphia versus like Abu Dhabi, it's
12:40
kind of like a little bit of a difference between those two areas, like, you know, obviously
12:44
almost every building in Philadelphia is older, whereas something like that is more contemporary.
12:48
This was the side of the it's me in games, so that's where you will hear Paul reference
12:52
the games and, you know, training and things like that.
12:55
These are something that happened every other year.
12:57
These are things that kind of coincided or would have looked like the Olympic games.
13:00
And so this is, you know, the capital of the Roman province of Asia, like this is an incredibly,
13:05
incredibly important city.
13:07
But the first thing that I really want to discuss here and there's really so many huge chunks
13:10
that we could get into is Jay, I don't know if this has happened for you, but it's certainly
13:15
happened for me.
13:17
People get really uncomfortable when pastors make money outside of their salary.
13:20
And so when pastors write books or when pastors go and speak at conferences or anything where
13:25
they earn a speaker fee or an honorarium of any kind, I've had people throw in my face,
13:30
hey, you should come speak at my event.
13:32
The one I'm thinking about is there was a group in Alabama that wanted me to come to
13:36
their four day camp and they wanted me to speak seven times for 60 minutes each time.
13:43
And they wanted me to pay my own way.
13:46
And I remember being like, you know, maybe this was kind of rude, but I'm like, you
13:50
know what, I think you should walk into your boss's office on Monday and tell him that not
13:54
only would you like to work overtime, you would no longer like to be paid.
13:58
And so I feel like in this moment, now again, he's working as a tent maker.
14:02
So he's kind of working all week and then preaching on the weekends kind of a thing.
14:05
So preaching was almost like a side hustle or something like that, but it just kind of
14:09
brings up for me that people forget that Paul worked for money that Paul wasn't just, you
14:13
know, always like a pop or with his pockets out and like, oh, people help me with my ministry.
14:17
But at the same time, this idea that you shouldn't be making money.
14:21
If you're in ministry or ministry adjacent, I just, it really, really bothers me because
14:25
it's like everything costs money.
14:27
If you want to eat food and live indoors, you have to make a living.
14:29
Some people just happen to make a living doing something that is inside the world of Christianity.
14:33
Yeah.
14:34
You don't muzzle the ox.
14:35
Yeah.
14:36
That's the old metaphor in scripture.
14:37
Don't muzzle the ox way.
14:38
He's treading out the grain.
14:39
I think also where it says that the worker deserves double honor, like there's, it's
14:47
interesting that Paul has to, I can't cite chapter and verse, I'm sorry.
14:52
But another place in his writing, he basically says, hey, some of these guys are in this
14:59
just to get rich.
15:01
So there's obviously an opportunity for the pastors, the church leaders, the spiritual
15:08
authorities to make a good living in this practice.
15:12
And so I think Paul's also in his approach being a tent maker, what we would call our
15:17
bivocational, he, and he, he addresses the Thessalon icons this way later on in one of
15:22
his letters.
15:23
But he also mentions like, I didn't take from you, right?
15:26
I worked when I was among you.
15:27
I wasn't, I wasn't on the take.
15:28
I wasn't taking advantage of your generosity.
15:31
I was paying my own way.
15:32
I was making my own way.
15:33
And that's what he's doing as he enters into Corinth and finds this couple to partner
15:36
with.
15:37
I need to buy him a jet, brightling watch, yeah, whatever, maybe, maybe, but don't you
15:44
say that there are demons on that plane?
15:46
Don't you say it?
15:47
All I'm saying is like, I totally get that.
15:49
We had a pastor at a church when I grew up, you know, they were, you know, you got to
15:53
take care of your pastors, you know, and you got to take care of your church.
15:56
You're a part of a community.
15:58
And I guess he bought his like son, a nice car and it was, it was like an old mobile though.
16:02
And like they gave him the hardest time about that.
16:05
And like to the point he let, he had to leave the church, like they thought it was too
16:07
nice of a car for a son to drive.
16:09
And I was like, man, I think that there's, there's like a line.
16:12
There's a certain line, you know, like let pastors or who are bi-vocational or pastors
16:16
who write books or pastors who adjunct professor or do something behind the scenes.
16:21
That's fine.
16:22
You know, as long as they're leading their flock and they're, and they're preaching the
16:24
gospel and their message outside of the church is still gospel oriented.
16:28
Like, you know, if you're going to do a podcast, do a podcast on the gospel for your pastor.
16:33
So, and, and, and, and, and it's okay to have separate incomes coming in, like they got
16:38
to live.
16:39
I get it 100%.
16:40
I don't expect my pastor to live in a 12 underscore foot house with six kids and one
16:45
big van that's 12 years old, you know, I think it's okay for us to honor our pastors.
16:52
And so I remember when, when Joby was here, I mean, we really as a group rolled out the
16:55
red carpet form whenever he was here because he was staying here with us and he was, you
16:59
know, doing content with us.
17:00
He even mentioned afterwards, he's like, you know, where it talks about out doing one
17:03
another and honor.
17:04
It's like, I feel like guys miss that sometimes because we're like, Oh, I just throw the guy,
17:08
you know, bag of Cheetos and, you know, give him a beer and he'll be okay.
17:11
Technically true, but also it is okay to go out of your way to honor people sometimes.
17:15
Like, you know, whenever I came up to you after, after the sermon, like I wanted you
17:19
to really understand that that landed with me, not that you needed that from me.
17:23
You didn't need me to tell you that.
17:25
But I felt like this is an honorable thing to do for, for me to not just have that nice
17:29
thought disappear.
17:30
And the same thing is true where, you know, you have these, these things online, like
17:34
preachers and sneakers where they always look at some of these mega church pastors and it's
17:37
like, Oh, he's wearing, you know, a $1,000 Gucci belt and he's wearing, you know, a
17:41
$10, you know, $1,000 pair of Jordans and all that type of stuff.
17:44
The thing is, is what I never see on those sites is the pastor in a suit and tie that's
17:49
wearing $1,000 custom made Italian shoes and the suit costs three grand and all that.
17:54
But we don't do that because it's not, you know, off white, you know, Jordans or something
17:58
like that.
17:59
Or I don't even know if I made the reference right.
18:00
And so it's like, I know it makes people feel uncomfortable, but there are certain things
18:03
that I won't do.
18:04
Like I have a pair of Jordans that I would like to wear whenever I go and speak, but
18:07
I don't even like focused on my shoes.
18:09
That's why we're all black or a black V net, black boots and black jeans, because I want
18:13
them to be not distracted by anything that I'm wearing.
18:15
But what if the boots were handmade by some cobbler in the middle of nowhere and it cost
18:19
me five grand?
18:20
Does that mean that I'm not qualified to speak?
18:22
Does it mean I'm more qualified to speak?
18:24
And I feel like people get really, really wrapped around the axle with that.
18:27
It's like, yes, if you're stealing from the congregants, if you're stealing from your flock,
18:32
if you're convincing them to give you money to their detriment, yeah, that's obviously
18:37
a big issue and you're going to have to give an account someday for what you've done.
18:40
But you know, if pastors make money because their book becomes a mega bestseller, like,
18:44
who cares?
18:45
I mean, I get that, but it's also, you know, what's the heart behind it?
18:48
And like you kind of brought it up.
18:49
Are they doing this just to make money?
18:51
Yeah.
18:52
Like if we come back, we'll go over in Acts 20 where Paul talks to the elders and he
18:58
goes over like, I never took anything from you guys.
19:01
You know, I never, I never outstayed my welcome.
19:04
But that's the thing.
19:05
It's like, you can't put like your livelihood on the backs of your, of your, of your congregation,
19:10
but you also need to, if you're preaching the gospel and you're doing the job of a shepherd,
19:15
you're going to be honored for that.
19:17
And there's no, and if you're honored for it and you're honored by it with like a Breitling
19:21
watch, I guess, you know, like, by all means, that's great.
19:24
But like, I remember a guy was a, I saw a pastor, I can't remember where it was from,
19:27
but he like chastised his congregation because he asked for this watch and nobody went out
19:31
and gave enough money for him to get this watch.
19:33
Oh, yeah.
19:34
You know, like it is just like, you know, some other pastors are like, Hey, I want us
19:38
to give more money.
19:39
Cause I need this private jet.
19:40
Like, you can fly commercial, bro.
19:41
One of the things is, I think it's okay to lavish on people because there are people
19:46
that have been blessed by God and they have a lot of means.
19:49
And so I think of a personal example, so matching in there when he was hanging out here, he's
19:52
like, yeah, one day, Tony Romo, who's a friend of his, he just flies my wife and I on a private
19:58
jet to come and hang out with him at this resort with some other people and, you know,
20:02
we were doing some Bible study and discipleship type stuff, but he's like, what if I had posted
20:06
a picture of my wife and I, you know, sipping on crystal or something like that and on this,
20:12
on this private plane or all that, it's like, well, if you're doing that to show honor to
20:16
somebody that is lavished honor upon you, that's one thing, but what if he's like, look how
20:21
dope my life is, don't you feel sad that your life sucks this bad because mine doesn't suck
20:26
at all.
20:27
And so like I do think the motivation matters, but I feel like pastors are almost trying
20:30
to like, they want you to see they're driving a Corolla because they're like, look, I'm
20:34
not driving around in a Bentley, I'm better than these other pastors.
20:37
You know what I'm saying?
20:38
Yeah.
20:39
What's, what's that called?
20:40
I can't think of the word.
20:41
It'll come to you.
20:42
It'll come to you.
20:43
But go ahead.
20:44
I was going to say, when I passed through to more rural church, you know, most of my constituents
20:49
or at least the long standing members were farmers.
20:51
Yeah.
20:52
And also at this church, in terms of the church budget, it was the church budget that was
20:58
published in a way that the personnel budget was, was line items, you could see what every
21:03
pastor made, you know, what their health insurance costs were every, every dime that
21:08
went to the pastor was public knowledge amongst the whole church.
21:12
And I think everybody wanted the pastor to be paid well.
21:15
They just didn't want the pastor to be paid more than them.
21:17
Yeah.
21:18
Okay.
21:19
I call some problems.
21:22
And, and, and one of the dynamics at play there was he had all these blue collar, farmer-type
21:27
guys that worked really hard.
21:30
Yeah.
21:31
They worked hard and they didn't see Bible study and counseling and prayer and leading
21:37
meetings as hard work, as hard work.
21:42
And so there was this disconnect between maybe what the compensation was and the kind of
21:46
work that the pastor was doing.
21:48
And so you had to kind of get in and, and rewire some things and help them understand.
21:52
Okay.
21:53
Yeah.
21:54
I'm not doing hard work in the way that bailing hay or plowing a field or, you know, work
22:00
in a branding cattle all day is hard work, but I'm doing hard work.
22:04
Yeah.
22:05
And sometimes hard work is harder than hard work.
22:07
It's a deeper and more enduring toll on your life than just the hard work.
22:12
So with that in mind, what do you and Mark make if you just want to like tell all of us?
22:16
Exactly.
22:17
Can we look at that?
22:18
Yeah.
22:19
If you want to go to the treasurer and ask, he will show it to you.
22:21
Okay.
22:22
Very guy.
22:23
I think, I think it's good though.
22:24
I think it's good for churches because I went to a church that had no elder board or
22:27
anything.
22:28
We had no idea where the money was going.
22:29
Like, we've asked like, Hey, we're, we're given to all these organizations.
22:33
How much money are we given to these organizations and that pastor would not show us?
22:36
There are some traditions that are still alive today that the pastor's king, he makes the
22:43
budget, he allocates the funds, he sets his own salary and those are really, those are
22:49
really dangerous places.
22:50
Yeah.
22:51
The word I was thinking was virtue signaling.
22:52
Yeah.
22:53
Yeah.
22:54
Yeah.
22:55
Like driving that curl or you're like virtue signaling like, well, and it's almost like
22:57
some people will try to virtue on virtue signal on both sides by doing the like epic life
23:02
stuff and doing the no, I'm a, I'm a pop or just like you type of thing.
23:05
Now I have to, we have to be disciplined about this.
23:07
I'm going to spend a maximum of five minutes on this because we've still got good stuff
23:10
to even talk about in this section.
23:12
At some point, we've all got to eat food.
23:15
You kind of alluded to this a little bit.
23:16
You and I've talked about this before.
23:18
When pastors in there, I guess you could call it off time, they will do things that are
23:24
not explicitly ministry related or gospel.
23:27
So perhaps you're a big mega church pastor and you have a leadership podcast.
23:31
The problem is we're not naming names.
23:33
Maybe you've got a leadership podcast and you're helping people because you are, you
23:38
know, more leader than you are pastor or something like that, but you're using church time and
23:42
church funds to build out a studio.
23:46
You're using the staff people that are paid for the church to do something that is serving
23:49
a leadership purpose.
23:50
Now I can see both sides.
23:53
Maybe you are a church staff member and you have a leadership deficit in your personality
23:58
or in your, your staff and you're like, let's learn from somebody that is kind of more on
24:02
this leadership guru side and maybe that'll help us run our ministry better.
24:06
I can see that side back and also see the people that are like, wait a minute, you're
24:09
using church time and funds to do something that is not bringing anyone closer to the
24:14
gospel or really helping people like directly in ministry.
24:17
I can see both sides.
24:19
I personally land on one side of the ledger over the other.
24:22
You can take a wild guess where you think I land.
24:24
But it's, it's one of those things where I think it's a fair critique, but I don't know
24:28
how far to take that to where it's like, look, you are a pastor.
24:32
You can't give any advice that's outside the Bible or outside of any type of pastoral
24:35
ministry.
24:36
So just curious where you guys think about that.
24:38
But yeah, keep your, your comments cogent because we got a lot more to cover.
24:41
I don't have a problem with it.
24:42
I'm actually okay with it to a point.
24:45
It's just the, if we want to use Craig Rochelle as an example, it's his leadership podcast.
24:50
Like I don't think live church has the best model for discipleship or for, um, or any
24:56
model.
24:57
Or any model at all.
24:58
It's just like, it's just, it just reminds me of like, let's open as a bunch of mini
25:01
malls as we can and then get people in there.
25:04
And then, you know, it's just very secret sensitive.
25:06
And so I don't feel like there's a shepherding model to it.
25:09
So what I, what I look at Craig Rochelle, somebody who I want to hear a shepherding podcast
25:13
on, probably not, but when it comes to organizational leadership, like, yeah, he's doing
25:16
what he's going to do.
25:17
Yeah.
25:18
And I get that.
25:19
That's fine.
25:20
So I don't judge them for it.
25:21
I just wish you'd bring up the gospel war.
25:22
And I just would say that you've got to keep the thing, the main thing, the main thing.
25:27
Like I go to, I go to a job, I have a primary job that I go to and that is what I'm getting
25:32
paid to do.
25:33
And so I spend my, my time and effort and energy and all that towards that.
25:39
Now, as soon as I quote, quote, unquote, clock out, then I can do whatever I want after
25:44
that.
25:45
But, um, but I, and I don't know, I don't know the ins and outs on, on this whole thing
25:49
with life, church, whatnot.
25:50
But if it starts to bleed into like, now I'm taking calls during my work hours for this
25:56
other thing that I'm doing, you know, then I think becomes a problem.
25:59
Right?
26:00
I mean, it just makes sense from just a basic employment standpoint.
26:05
So keep the main thing, the main thing and then whatever you're going to do after that.
26:08
I don't, I don't have a problem with that personally.
26:10
I don't know what your thought.
26:11
Yeah.
26:12
At church called me a while back and they, uh, it was some, some elder to the church and
26:17
they were asking me, what are your policies about your pastoral staff, primarily your
26:22
senior pastor being gone?
26:24
Oh, wow, we don't really have that.
26:28
We kind of just feel our way through that.
26:29
And their issue was they had a senior pastor who was being gone too much on mission trips.
26:34
And so, I mean, that's obviously a noble important thing to be doing and this man felt called
26:40
into it, uh, but they were trying to figure out, okay, he needs to be here.
26:44
We're paying him to be here preaching, um, but he's always kind of got on the docket.
26:50
The next big trip that he's going to go on and help facilitate church planting or, or
26:54
help church leaders in developing countries or where there might be doing mission work.
26:59
So, you know, that's a, that's a tough one.
27:01
Yeah.
27:02
Like that's good work.
27:03
Like that needs, you know, he's filled, called to it and needs to be done.
27:05
So they just need to have that hard conversation to get at the balance that the church needs
27:09
to find.
27:10
Sounds like he's an evangelist.
27:11
It seems like it.
27:12
Yeah.
27:13
Yeah.
27:14
You know, and that's the thing is making sure, I mean, this goes back to the Jim Collins, good
27:17
to great stuff.
27:18
It's not just making sure you're on the right bus.
27:19
It's making sure you're on the right seat on the right bus.
27:21
But then if you're, if you're a pastor, you can't have a, um, you know, board of directors.
27:27
You have to have a board of elders, right?
27:28
So that's the other difference with some of these mega church guys is like they, they
27:31
are the chairman of the board, like, and they don't have elders.
27:34
I can really check them every, they're kind of insulated from a lot of that.
27:38
And so if you're, if you're kind of using that Jim Collins model, you've, everyone's
27:42
got to agree on the direction that the bus is going while they're sitting in the correct
27:46
seat.
27:47
Again, I'm all for leadership.
27:49
Look on our 100 books, every modern Christian man should read lists.
27:51
We have a leadership and business section.
27:53
That's how important we think this stuff is, but perhaps the context timing and who pays
27:57
for it really matters.
27:59
One thing that I wanted to point out is, and I make this point a lot, that if you just
28:02
read the Bible and then this happened and then he said this and then whatever and you
28:06
read no personality into it, you could miss some stuff.
28:09
So I missed entirely how hilarious verse seven is because here he is.
28:14
He's talking to the Jews.
28:15
Kind of rejecting them at some point he realizes pearls before swine and you know, he's got
28:19
to be really angry when he says your blood be on your own head.
28:22
I am innocent from now on.
28:23
I will go with the Gentiles and he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius
28:27
Justice, a worshiper of God.
28:29
His house was next door to the synagogue and I was just like, holy cow, how many times
28:32
have I read that section and not thought about how exactly hilarious that is.
28:36
He has that declarative moment.
28:37
He is screaming.
28:38
He has red face.
28:39
He's got veins popping out of his forehead and he goes next door and he's like, watch this.
28:42
Like, I don't know if y'all maybe got that the first time, but it completely missed me
28:46
how funny that was until I read it last.
28:48
I didn't see the humor until just now.
28:50
Isn't that ridiculous?
28:51
Like he just, I'm going.
28:52
I'm so mad.
28:53
I'm going next door.
28:54
That's like, you're mad at your wife and you're like, I'm out of here and you just like
28:57
walk to the other room.
28:58
Isn't that how it normally goes though?
29:00
Yeah, I mean, that's how that's how it's gone for me before.
29:03
But that's another thing.
29:04
It's like true.
29:05
You've got to make sure that whenever you're reading this that you're not, you know, missing
29:08
out on some of this important contexts and things like that.
29:10
But I did actually have a question and so Jay or whoever can maybe shed some light on
29:14
this.
29:15
So, you know, you have this section towards the end of what we just read, starting in
29:19
verse nine and the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, do not be afraid, but go on speaking
29:23
and do not be silent for I am with you and no one will attack you to harm you for I have
29:28
many in this city who are my people for I have many in this city who are my people.
29:32
I've read two different reads of this section.
29:35
The first is kind of more of a Calvinist read and another is not.
29:40
So the Calvinist read is like, look, my elector in this city, I need you to be bold.
29:45
I need you to stay there.
29:46
Okay.
29:47
Because I've got more people that I need to go get, right?
29:50
The other read I've gotten is like, Hey, don't don't worry about being harmed.
29:54
I got people in this city.
29:56
It's kind of like, you know, I'm from Lauden.
29:57
If you know anything about Oklahoma, Lauden can be a rough city.
30:00
If you don't know the right people.
30:01
And so if someone's going in and they're a guest and you're basically saying, Hey, don't
30:05
worry about it.
30:06
I got you.
30:07
Lauden, you know, I think back to Braveheart when the guys like, you know, talking about
30:10
the people in Ireland is like that, like basically these are my people like it's mine.
30:15
Like that's that's his, that's his, that's his island or something like that.
30:18
So I don't know which way to read that text because I've heard the arguments both ways
30:22
and depending upon the translation you read, it seems clear one way or the other.
30:27
Thoughts?
30:28
Yeah.
30:29
Y'all looking at me for election, huh?
30:31
If I have to remember when we discussed this with Pastor Mark, he did bring up election
30:36
in regards to this portion.
30:38
Yeah, I've never read it or even heard of the interpretation that that Paul would say,
30:44
I got, I just, you know, I got voice in this way that God would say, I got, I got, I got,
30:47
I got people here.
30:48
They're going to take care of you, you know, so, but that's interesting.
30:52
But I've always, I've always read it the other way.
30:54
So is he, is he, do we assume he's dealing with some fear?
30:57
I mean, is that why it's being addressed?
30:59
Cause like in the past, I think he's just discouraged.
31:02
I think he's discouraged.
31:03
He's like, I'm trying to breach these people.
31:04
They're not listening.
31:05
They're creating problems and like, why am I here?
31:09
And he's like, don't give up.
31:10
I've got people in here that need to hear this.
31:13
So that's how I, it's like everywhere he goes, he's like, all right, I got this window
31:17
of opportunity.
31:18
I'm going to preach, say a few things, a few days, maybe a few weeks or whatever.
31:22
But eventually these guys are going to come from, these Jews are coming in and they're
31:26
just going to disrupt this.
31:27
There's that.
31:28
Like when you look at his journeys beforehand, he's like staying with people.
31:31
He's got a place to stay.
31:33
He's probably being taken care of by a certain church in there.
31:36
But here in Corinth, he's like, he's a tent maker.
31:40
He's making a tent.
31:41
He's trying to get by.
31:42
And so at the time, so he's trying to get by and make a living.
31:45
He's also in his downtime trying to preach the gospel and people aren't listening.
31:48
And so I bet a lot of discouragements coming in through that.
31:51
So I will say the first time that I saw it where I was like, okay, this isn't like an
31:54
election thing.
31:56
So I was listening.
31:57
So part of the way that I study is I'll do all my study, but then towards the end, I
32:00
will just listen to Johnny Cash reading the New Testament.
32:03
And so Johnny Cash is reading the New Testament, the New King James version.
32:06
So here's how the new King James version talks about this section.
32:09
So starting in verse nine, now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, do not be
32:13
afraid, but speak and do not keep silent for I am with you.
32:16
And no one will attack you or hurt you for I have many people in the city.
32:20
That that's how it said.
32:21
And so that seems fairly declarative that it's like, hey, no one's going to hurt you
32:25
because I got people there, right?
32:27
And so then it was like, Oh, shoot, like, is this not like, Hey, you got to stay there
32:30
because I got to get more people or it's like, Hey man, you're going to be fine, like physically.
32:34
Don't worry about it.
32:35
Like don't be afraid.
32:36
Be bold.
32:37
So that was kind of the first time that I looked at it there.
32:40
Now, let's actually go and move on.
32:42
Let's can't keep moving through acts 18.
32:44
So go ahead.
32:45
Go ahead.
32:46
I'll just say though that the way I've looked at that and read that and use that applied
32:49
it has just been in relation to missionary confidence.
32:53
So if a missionary feels called to go to a place, they can go with that knowledge that
33:01
God has called them and is sending them somewhere because there are people there.
33:04
So it's not left to them to be the truth, not contingent upon their presentation.
33:09
The truth is not contingent upon even their preparation.
33:13
The truth is based on the fact that God has people is the elect of God that he is sending
33:20
messengers to share the gospel with who he's going to call and draw to himself.
33:25
So yeah, just a little cherry on top there.
33:28
Okay.
33:29
I wonder how long like, I mean missionaries go to, I just have this thought of like, okay,
33:33
I feel called to this area, I go and there's literally nothing that happens for the first
33:37
five years or whatever or three years or whatever, like what, I mean, I assume there's dealing
33:42
with discouragement and that period of time, like I mean, I don't do missionaries give
33:48
up and just move out.
33:51
Do they, I mean, I guess it's a personal thing, but like, it seemed like I would struggle
33:55
a little bit if I literally was in a place for ever and I felt like I just continued
33:59
to quote unquote plant seeds, but I was not seeing any fruit come from that.
34:04
So I'm kind of thinking of a friend who has a brother that went to a place and it just
34:11
was a disaster and I don't know the full situation.
34:14
I don't know if they just said, Hey, this would be a cool place to go.
34:16
We should just go and then it that's, it just ended up that way.
34:20
But anyways, I think personally when I think about it, if I went somewhere and was not
34:24
seeing any fruit, I think that would be personally hard for me.
34:27
Yeah.
34:28
The reason that I don't necessarily think it's probably discouragement here is because the
34:31
Lord, when he's communicating to Paul, he says, do not be afraid, not be, not do not
34:36
be discouraged.
34:37
And so my assumption would be that maybe he was a little gun shy.
34:40
Now was he gun shy because he was so discouraged because he had had so much failure or, you
34:44
know, wasn't really gaining traction, we can't exactly know, but we're going to keep moving
34:48
on acts 18.
34:49
But I did want to remind you guys that we are partnered with Crossway and with Logos.
34:52
So Logos, let's start there.
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It is absolutely robust.
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So guys, if you're going to use it, don't use it a full price.
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Use it as a discount.
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We do have a discount code there in the show notes and then also Crossway shout out.
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you can like, you know, bleeding all over the Bible, if you feel the need to, but they
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There's some other really, really good resources in there, a book from Vodie Bockham.
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35:35
So let's go backwards.
35:37
Jay, if you can read verses 12 through 17, but while Galileo was pro counsel of a Kaya,
35:44
the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat,
35:48
saying this man persuades men to worship God contrary to the law.
35:51
What am I reading through?
35:52
By the way, you're going through 17.
35:54
Okay.
35:55
But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Galileo said to the Jews, if it were a matter
35:58
of wrong or a vicious crime of Jews, it would be reasonable for me to put up with you.
36:03
But if there are questions about words and names in your own law, look after it yourselves,
36:08
I'm unwilling to be a judge of these matters and he drove them away from the judgment seat.
36:13
And they all took hold of Soss the knees, the leader of the synagogue, and began beating
36:19
him in front of the judgment seat.
36:20
But Galileo was not concerned about any of these things.
36:24
And so the interesting thing about this section is the guy's kind of like, why are you complaining
36:28
to me?
36:29
Exactly.
36:30
It's kind of dismissive of this, but even though he was dismissive, it was really important
36:35
here because his refusal to really take this complaint seriously, this essentially gave
36:40
Paul free reign to minister and evangelize in these Roman provinces and that he would
36:47
be protected by Roman law because it's kind of like they shot their shot here at the beginning
36:52
and the guy just didn't really take the bait.
36:54
And so that's what I feel like is important here in this section.
36:56
Is there anything else on there before we go to Paul returning to Antioch?
36:59
Yeah, is that just kind of like a almost like a evidence of a church and a separation of
37:05
church and state in that moment?
37:08
Can we look at it that way or is that unfair?
37:10
No, I think that's a good parallel, like these are ecclesiastical matters.
37:14
We don't use that terminology in the law court.
37:17
You guys settle this yourselves.
37:18
When it gets back to the reason that Thomas Jefferson even put that in his letter because
37:22
again, the separation of church and state that you can't find that anywhere in the constitution
37:26
or the bill of rights or the declaration of independence, that was in a personal letter
37:31
to a small group of people and a particular a part of the United States and his point
37:35
was not so that we could keep the church out of the state is so that we could keep the
37:38
state out of the church.
37:40
And so that's the thing that people everyone gets wrong about that, including people that
37:43
are, you know, pro God, pro Christianity and, you know, anti the government infiltration
37:48
is it's keeping the government out of meddling within the church.
37:51
And so I think that that is a good corollary there because he's just like, yeah, this
37:54
doesn't have anything to do with us like, it was almost like how pilot at the beginning
37:58
of this whole thing with going on with Jesus, he was like, please don't make me have to
38:02
intercede in all this, like, please don't make me have to get into all this.
38:05
But the Jews were very adamant about it.
38:08
And obviously we kind of know how the story ends there.
38:11
Let's go and get into Paul returning to Antioch.
38:13
So Ryan, if you will hit 18 through 23, please, after this, Paul stayed many days longer than
38:19
took leave of the brothers and set self for Syria and with him, Priscilla and Aquila at
38:25
that's right.
38:26
That's right.
38:28
It's on the line.
38:29
That's good.
38:30
That's right.
38:31
I'm going to go with pop star.
38:32
He had cut his hair where he is.
38:34
He was under vow and they came to Ephesus and he left them there.
38:39
But he himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.
38:42
When they asked for him to stay for a longer period, he declined.
38:45
But on taking leave of them, he said, I will return to you if God wills and he sets
38:49
self from Ephesus.
38:51
When he had landed in Caesarea, he went up and greeted the church and then went down
38:55
to Antioch.
38:56
After spending some time there, he departed and went from one place to the next through
39:00
the region of Galatia and Faggia, for Gia, for Gia, strengthening all the disciples.
39:07
So quick section here, but I did actually have a question came up with verse 20.
39:11
When they asked him to stay for a long period, he declined.
39:14
Do we know why?
39:15
Do we have any guesses as to why?
39:17
Because I know he's been wanting to go back to Jerusalem.
39:20
Yeah, I'm right.
39:22
And so again, he says in the next verse, like, I will return to you if God wills.
39:26
And so it's like, I feel like there's a lot of ways to read that, like why he didn't
39:28
stay, but I didn't get any compelling answers.
39:32
Anything?
39:33
I mean, maybe he had done what he had planned on doing.
39:36
Or maybe he had people that he could, you know, employ to continue the work.
39:41
So to speak, and he's like, I just, I need to keep moving.
39:43
You've got the right people in.
39:44
Yeah.
39:45
That's what happened in Berea.
39:46
Timothy and Silas stayed.
39:49
I mean, Paul was a pioneer.
39:50
I mean, that's the kind of work he did.
39:52
And so if things could sustain themselves without him, if leaders were there, if people
39:59
were prepared, it was his heart to move on.
40:02
Like let's keep pressing the gospel forward.
40:04
So it's not surprising that he would want to leave.
40:07
One thing that came up for me was the Nazarite vow.
40:09
Yeah.
40:10
It sounds like there was a Nazarite vow taken and why did he take a Nazarite vow?
40:13
No idea.
40:14
No idea.
40:15
He could put that in there because it's like, you can tell it's a Nazarite vow.
40:17
It's almost like a throwaway line, but they, but yeah, I'm like, that's a Nazarite vow.
40:21
If you look at it, like, why would he, why would he have taken that vow?
40:25
Sorry.
40:26
No, it's like, no, it's an important question.
40:28
I don't know how to find anything on it.
40:30
That's why I was like, I'm going to ask the, uh, ask the pastor.
40:33
I don't know.
40:34
It is an interesting little feature and it might be just related to, you know, we all
40:38
have these like little seasons of, okay, I need, I need to get disciplined about X or
40:42
why, you know, so I'm going to do this.
40:44
So I mean, because it was like a fasting type thing because you don't drink, you don't
40:47
drink any wine.
40:48
That's true.
40:49
You can't have anything from the vine.
40:50
Um, you can't be around anything dead.
40:53
Yeah.
40:54
So, okay.
40:55
So this actually kind of relates to something that, that came up, uh, I think it was a couple
40:59
of years ago now, but, uh, Mark did a sermon and he talked quite a bit about alcohol.
41:05
Now I wasn't happy with how he did it.
41:06
He pulled the swerve out at the end.
41:08
He was like, Oh yeah, here's all these different ways you can do it, but I don't drink.
41:11
And he basically looked at everybody in the crowd and was like, and if you do, you're
41:13
going to hell.
41:14
He didn't say that, but it was heavily implied that everyone would go to hell if they drink.
41:19
That sermon I ran into our worship pastor at Torchies and I was like, Hey, you getting
41:22
the beers?
41:23
Oh, I was like, I don't know who you are.
41:26
You were at church, weren't you?
41:27
Yeah.
41:28
Yeah.
41:29
So, so is it something like that to where he's almost like, Hey, I'm going to take this
41:31
vow.
41:32
Like, Hey, I'll be straight edge for a while.
41:34
Like I'm not going to touch any of these things.
41:37
Maybe he was worried about leaning too far into one of those because we all kind of know
41:40
our dispositions like one of the great bits of advice that Joby gave me in terms of accountability.
41:46
He has told all of his elders, if Satan were going to take me out here are the categories.
41:51
So here are the questions that you need to ask me, like whenever we're doing any type
41:55
of accountability, here are the things that you need to ask me about.
41:57
Cause some people have a chemical bend.
41:59
They can't just have one beer without having a dozen.
42:02
And then there are other people that it's more like, it's the lust of the eyes, like
42:05
they can't keep from, you know, looking at women that aren't their wife or fantasizing
42:09
or any of those types of things like we all kind of have our different flavors.
42:11
So I'm wondering like, maybe did Paul know something about himself?
42:15
Maybe it's like, look, this, this wine stuff, I could get out of control pretty quick.
42:19
So let me just take this vow so I can almost like take it off the table.
42:22
Yeah.
42:23
I mean, there's always this mystery about what the thorn in the flesh is and these different
42:27
things that Paul battled.
42:28
So Paul was not immune to suffering.
42:30
He wasn't immune to, I'm sure temptation or all the things that we deal with on a daily
42:34
basis either.
42:35
So for him to discipline his body as much as he even preaches about it, writes about it,
42:40
we have an example of him doing it right here.
42:42
I like to think of the fasting.
42:43
I think that that brings up really a good, a good thought like maybe he's like taking
42:47
that and adds right now, you know, it's like, hey, I'm going to fast from this stuff.
42:51
Maybe he's like one of these days, Ryan Horn is going to read this and I want him to feel
42:54
okay about being bald.
42:56
And he's just kind of like, I'm just going to cut my hair and say, you know, cause that
42:59
there's virtue in that.
43:00
Right.
43:01
So you've had, you've been aerodynamic for a very long time.
43:04
It's like a pair of speed does on me and call me bullet.
43:06
Now we didn't need to know that and we definitely didn't need that image.
43:09
So I'm going to try to move on as quickly as possible without throwing up on my mouth.
43:12
So hey, let's wrap up Acts 18.
43:14
So Jay, if you will read 24 through the end, which is verse 28.
43:19
Now would you name to Paul us an Alexandrian by birth an eloquent man came to Ephesus and
43:24
he was mighty in the scriptures.
43:25
This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in spirit.
43:28
He was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, but being acquainted
43:33
only with the baptism of John, and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue.
43:38
But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way
43:42
of God more accurately.
43:44
And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the
43:48
disciples to welcome him.
43:49
And when he'd arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace, where he powerfully
43:54
refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
44:00
So the thing that stood out to me with this section is in this moment, this dude had all
44:06
kinds of passion, but it was misdirected.
44:09
And so it seemed like Priscilla and Aquila, they were like, what a good mom and dad would
44:13
do.
44:14
It's like, look, son, I love your passion.
44:17
Let me kind of help you kind of, let's direct that passion a little bit as opposed to just,
44:21
hey, let's be a wild Mustang because, you know, wild Mustangs are good.
44:25
Let's not bridle this horse, right?
44:26
Let's not bridle this Mustang.
44:27
Let's just maybe point you in a direction that's better.
44:30
And so I thought that this was a really good example of them just, hey, not trying to embarrass
44:35
him publicly, but like, hey, let's keep the passion, but let's just make the message better.
44:39
But I also liked it.
44:40
In fact, if you look at Apollos, he actually sat and listened, you know, he wasn't like,
44:45
right?
44:46
He wasn't like, oh, I know everything.
44:48
And like, who are you two people?
44:49
I don't know who you are.
44:50
But like, once we stop wanting to learn, and once we want to, once we stop learning the
44:55
listen, like that's a problem.
44:57
And I think that him keeping that open mind and listening to them and then being able
45:02
to show him scripturally, you know, because like it says back in towards the end that
45:07
showing by scriptures that the Christ was Jesus, you know, it's like, all right, they
45:12
showed him through scriptures and corrected him through scripture.
45:16
And like he, he was open to that and was like, all right, I need to learn this.
45:19
This is what it is.
45:20
And he accepted it and moved on and was able to give the right presentation of the gospel
45:25
through that.
45:26
So it's like always be, always be open.
45:28
Yeah.
45:29
When I think about someone that's a disciple of Christ, you know, I think about one of
45:35
the key features is being able to receive someone's rebuke and not get all offended
45:42
and touchy and prideful about it, be able to receive it and then be willing to change,
45:49
be willing to consider what they've said.
45:51
I know this isn't a rebuke necessarily.
45:53
This is, he just didn't know.
45:55
I mean, he's just like, he'd been doing what he thought was right.
45:57
And they're just like, Hey, stuff has happened and we want to get you up to up to speed and
46:01
up to date.
46:02
But I agree with you.
46:03
I like how it appears that he received that and then just was like, all right, let's do
46:08
this.
46:09
This is great.
46:10
Cause it might have felt like a rebuke.
46:11
It certainly may have felt like it in the moment, but he, he responds well.
46:14
One of the things that we need to look at in here that we're going to see in the next
46:16
chapters and it just literally popped out of me, it said, and being fervent in the spirit,
46:21
he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism
46:26
of John.
46:28
So we're going to go into some other chapters and this might give it away.
46:31
But he was, if he was baptized and he was learning, he was learning during John the Baptist.
46:37
And so he wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit or knew what, you know, knew what, what happened
46:43
after Christ and saying, Hey, you know, we talked about repenting believing, but this
46:47
has already come to pass that there is a new law through Christ.
46:49
And so he only knew everything before Christ and now he's learning everything after Christ.
46:55
Yeah, it seemed very genuine and honest, right?
46:57
It wasn't like he was trying to lead people astray.
46:59
This is just, he just needed to learn.
47:01
He just had an old message.
47:02
Yeah.
47:03
And it's a really fascinating little window into this period of time, the birth of the
47:08
church, just the worldviews that are swirling, the message of Jesus, the forerunner, John,
47:14
this apostleship, like a Priscilla Quilla, they weren't apostles.
47:20
But they were these, these well-trained laymen closely acquainted with Paul that could come
47:25
alongside this guy and just coach him up, guide him, teach him, fill out whatever, whatever
47:31
knowledge he had so that he could then go forward in ministry.
47:36
Could you say they were like disciples?
47:37
Cause like we're all kind of disciples.
47:39
Like if we're going out and preaching the gospel, we're, we're discipling.
47:42
So like they were just good disciples.
47:44
Good disciples.
47:45
Good disciples.
47:46
You, we don't have any indication from the text that Apollos was welcoming rebuke that
47:52
he had told, you know, Priscilla and Aquila, like, Hey, if I ever get led astray, will
47:56
you kind of like give me some feedback?
47:58
And so good on Apollos for accepting this feedback.
48:02
Good on Priscilla and Aquila for giving the feedback.
48:05
But also I, you know, every opportunity I can get to make this point, I will.
48:08
If you do what we tell you to do through the on Donald life ministry, and if you get guys
48:12
in your life, foxhole guys, three M guys, guys, it'll help you bury your dog.
48:16
However, however you want to frame it, and you say, guys, you can disciple me and you
48:20
can also hold me accountable.
48:22
And if the first time they do that, you reject it, you know, you, you fall back into your
48:27
ego and you say, you don't know what you're talking about and you don't have a full context
48:30
and blah, blah and all that.
48:31
That is a massive issue because most guys are not going to go back to that well.
48:35
They're going to be like, Oh, this guy is, is not really trustworthy.
48:38
He's not really going to accept this.
48:39
I think about what Jordan Peterson talked about whenever you work on these construction
48:42
crews, one of the first things construction crews will do with a new guy is they'll kind
48:46
of razz him a little bit to see if he can handle the razzing, if he can take a joke because
48:51
if the guy gets too sensitive and can't take a joke, it's like, ah, this man, I don't know
48:55
if I can trust this guy in the fire because he's getting all, you know, bent out of shape
48:58
over a little bit of joke.
49:00
But also the good thing about what Apollo's does here at the end, he says, when he arrived,
49:04
he greatly helped those who through grace had believed for he powerfully refuted the Jews
49:09
in public showing by the scriptures that the Christ was Jesus.
49:13
There is something very, very important about public and forceful refutation.
49:17
That is a good thing in the right context because there are people that are default
49:22
aggressive, the, they are a hammer in the entire world as a nail.
49:25
That's problematic.
49:26
Then you have people that they've never found a hill that was worth dying on and they're
49:30
fine with, you know, leaving some powder for tomorrow's battle, even though tomorrow's
49:34
battle may never come, but this is a great example of he's pushing back darkness where
49:40
it needs to be pushed back.
49:41
He's boldly doing that in this idea that Christian should only be winsome.
49:46
They should never ruffle any feathers and there's no context for that.
49:50
This is just another example that actually, yes, there are times where refutation, full
49:54
throated refutation is positive, yeah, interesting, I have no idea if this is meaningful or not,
50:03
but when he was talking about cutting his hair and being on our Nazariah, Nazariah, it's
50:06
just kind of that throwaway verse, you know, we know that he talks about, I think it's
50:10
in Corinthians about like, we have the freedom to, if we feel convicted by this or that,
50:15
we can do that, but we don't necessarily have to put that on other people.
50:19
Like you have to do this.
50:20
You have to do this in order to be saved or make God more pleased or whatever.
50:24
So, you know, so he has that in there, but it doesn't say any cut his hair, freers under
50:29
a vow and then went and taught everybody.
50:31
They also needed to do this in order to be more right with Jesus.
50:35
It doesn't say that, but what I see down here is this whole like getting apollos kind of
50:41
on board that also is not, hey, we do, we do full summation baptism versus sprinkling
50:48
baptism.
50:49
You need to get on the right page with this.
50:50
So it wasn't all these like sidebar issues, it was just on the issue of the gospel and
50:53
a more right presentation of what Jesus has done and how these brothers or these future
50:59
brothers can be filled with the Holy Spirit through salvation, blah, blah, blah.
51:04
I was just thinking like when you talked about that he powerfully refuted, like he caused
51:09
division.
51:10
Like if we look back at the last, you know, couple, even last chapter in this chapter,
51:15
there's always division with what Paul said or somebody said like, I mean, there was riots
51:19
going on.
51:20
So it wasn't like somebody came in there winsomely and was just like, Hey, man, I just want
51:23
to let you guys all know, like, no, people were getting upset and angry and so it's
51:28
like, Hey, no matter where you go, you're going to have people that are going to believe
51:31
and they're going to see what you're saying or they're going to be angry, you know, and
51:35
so you can't just say, like, you know, my job is not to make people angry.
51:38
I don't think Paul or apollos is going in there to make people angry, but people are
51:43
going to get angry whether you're nice about it or not and let the message make people
51:47
angry, not the way you're delivering it, like that's another good thing.
51:49
Give the full message, but do you give it in grace and truth?
51:52
Right.
51:53
Jay, give us a give us a last word here on Acts 18.
51:56
I like to take the end of 27 in the first part of 28, even as a complimentary statement.
52:04
So he greatly helped those who had believed through grace for he powerfully refuted the
52:08
Jews in public that idea of grace set up against the law.
52:14
I think that the word that's not a throw away word that he was helping those who believe
52:20
through grace because he was helping them see that it's not through the works of the
52:23
law that they're saved.
52:25
They're saved by grace through the finished work of Christ.
52:28
Absolutely.
52:29
All right, guys, there's more that could be said about acts 18, but we're going to leave
52:31
it there.
52:32
Come back here next week.
52:33
We are going to be digging into acts 19, but before we do, we are going to do a quick
52:37
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