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This is Undaunted Life Man's Podcast, I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
0:56
Welcome back to the Forging Table, the mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push
1:00
back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:04
At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:08
by digging into God's Word, and we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with
1:11
us.
1:12
That's Ryan, that's Matt, that's Matt.
1:13
Guys, we're digging into Second Timothy 2, and there is a whole lot to talk about in
1:19
Second Timothy 2.
1:20
But before we go back in terms of a segue, Matt, we were talking off there about Second
1:24
Timothy 1, and you wanted to point something out about patterns and how that goes through
1:29
this entire letter.
1:30
Yeah, Paul is encouraging him to follow the pattern of sound words that you have heard
1:36
from me, and I think that is just in stark contrast to what you see as the theme of people
1:43
falling away, people leaving.
1:44
Paul's been abandoned by everybody, and I think he's trying to encourage Timothy, "Don't
1:50
abandon your faith, don't abandon me," like you've got to keep pushing forward, so don't
1:55
follow that pattern because I'm sure that was, and everybody else is doing that, probably
1:59
the safe bet to just pack it up.
2:02
I could probably live for another 60 years pretty comfortably if I just pack it in and
2:08
say, "All right, I'm done with this."
2:09
So I think he's saying, "Fall this pattern, not that pattern."
2:13
And I think that's a good, it's a good thought pattern, sorry, it works, but it's a good
2:21
thought process to carry as you're looking through all these letters because I constantly
2:25
have to remind myself that this letter was meant to be read at once, and here I am reading
2:32
one chapter, "Hah, let me chew on this," and "What's God trying to show me?" and blah,
2:36
blah, blah, blah.
2:37
He's trying to show you the rest of the freaking letter, "Would you just read it?"
2:40
So it's like that's the thing that I try to remind myself, especially for some of the
2:43
longer letters.
2:44
Go ahead.
2:45
Oh, I'm saying I think he kind of lays it out in chapter two here a little bit about
2:49
how the whole letter goes, or his meaning when he kind of compares Timothy to a soldier,
2:54
an athlete, former.
2:56
So the soldier is to get entangled in civilian pursuits, but aimed to please the one who
3:01
enlisted him, so our aim is to please God.
3:05
An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.
3:08
The Bible is a rule book, scripture is a rule book, the gospel is a rule book, this
3:12
is what we're put out for, so we need to compete towards that, and then the hardworking farmer
3:19
who gets a share of crops in the end.
3:21
So in the end, we'll talk about the blessings that one would receive if they stay on course.
3:27
Let's dig into that a little bit, actually, because verse four, talking about a soldier,
3:32
so the point, I would say, if you were to encapsulate it, verse four is no useless squabbles.
3:38
So it's not saying don't do civilian stuff, just like no useless squabbles, then he talks
3:42
about an athlete, he uses a lot of athletic language in his letters, Paul does, and he's
3:46
talking about in terms of, hey, we're not going to cut any corners, like where we're
3:49
going to get this done.
3:50
I remember Matt, when you and I were on the soccer team in college, we would have to
3:54
do our runs, and as a goalie, I'm like, this is stupid, I have to run like 10 yards at
4:00
a time, but we would have guys that would cut corners, literal corners, because we would
4:04
run a corner mile or something like that, so that's a mile each way, so four, and so they
4:09
would kind of veer off and run through campus and cut time off, and those are the same guys
4:14
that would get gassed during a game in the 85th minute, and it's just like, yep, that's
4:18
what happens when you cut corners.
4:19
So he's kind of given an admonition there to not cut corners.
4:22
And then obviously, when you think about a hardworking profession, most people think
4:26
about a farmer, you think about the patience it takes to be a farmer, and so that's what
4:30
he's talking about in verse six, no laziness.
4:33
And there's just really a lot here that that can be said, and then I'll tell you guys up
4:37
from there.
4:38
But you know, verse four, you know, soldier, especially at this time they had, and this
4:42
was pointed out in the Reformation Study Bible, readiness to suffer.
4:45
They were loyal, and they were single minded in their commitment, right?
4:48
And that's what you think of a good soldier, but then verses five and six, it's kind of
4:52
a promise of a future reward.
4:54
It's like your hard work and your ability to do things correctly now leads to a future
4:58
reward.
4:59
Otherwise, you know, win the World Series or the Superbowl or the World Cup, almost always
5:03
they talk about the process it took to get there and all the hard work and the extra
5:07
practices in the film study and all those different things.
5:10
And it's a promise of future reward that you will not get if you don't put in the work.
5:15
So I think that that's there's a lot there, but you know, just in those three verses,
5:18
it's like, okay, that if you want to build out how to live your life as a good adult,
5:23
like those would be three examples that you could put in your life pretty quick.
5:26
Yeah, I think that's a good point.
5:28
And I think the soldier one is interesting to me because it is, it can be analogous to
5:35
how we should be living our life as Christians where we are.
5:41
Our general is Christ and we are focused on what he is wanting us to do.
5:46
And I think all those other distractions just take us down or can take us down a path of
5:51
destruction.
5:53
And if we're not, I think it's our duty to be more single minded in what we're trying
6:00
to strive for.
6:01
And so I, man, this was written thousands of years ago, but still still so applicable
6:08
today.
6:09
I love that analogy.
6:10
Well, one thing as well, you know, when we're talking about the farmer, I guess the word
6:13
used for hardworking farmer, what they meant is to labor to the point of exhaustion.
6:19
And I guess if for the guys listening to this and certainly for the guys at the table, when
6:24
it comes to your work life, whatever it is that you do, and we're all kind of more so
6:28
in white collar types of jobs, but regardless of the job that you're doing, are you laboring
6:33
is unto the Lord?
6:34
And are you laboring to the point where you are exhausted?
6:38
And then the same would apply to, I would assume how you labor inside your family, how
6:42
you labor inside your church, how you labor inside of your, your local community.
6:46
And I remember this, I have just one of those like kitschy, you know, Father's Day type
6:51
stories or whatever.
6:52
But there was this, this man who, you know, hardworking man, and he's, he's rubbing his
6:56
hands because he's kind of arthritic and his hands hurt and he's working real hard and
7:00
blah, blah, blah.
7:01
And his old daughter comes up to him and says, Daddy, dear, dear, hands hurt, are you okay?
7:05
And he says, baby, do you have enough to eat?
7:09
She's like, yeah, like do you have all the clothes that you need to go to school and to
7:14
go to church and all that?
7:15
Well, yeah.
7:16
Do you have enough money to do the activities that you want to do and all that kind of stuff?
7:20
Well, yeah, he goes, in my hands feel fine.
7:23
And it's like, that's, that's a dad, like that's a guy that's like, I'm a ring myself
7:28
out think, think about that quintessential farmer, right?
7:32
The old man in his button down shirt and he just got off his tractor and he doesn't get
7:37
a parade.
7:38
Like he doesn't get a month of celebration, like he's just going to get after it and get
7:42
to work.
7:43
But there's a lot there, especially for a dad that's, that's looking for opportunities
7:48
to grow himself.
7:50
There's a lot just in that.
7:51
I think these three examples too are very stark in contrast to what we view as a modern
7:57
day pastor.
7:58
They're in the muck in the mire.
8:00
They're, they're doing the stuff that, like you said, that you don't get a parade or work
8:04
in a field.
8:05
And I think, I mean, first Timothy talks, his first letter, he talks about not doing, not
8:10
doing these godly things for worldly gain.
8:14
Obviously, that's not exactly what he puts it, but like that's not the pastor is someone
8:20
who does the stuff in the muck in the mire and has mud and blood all over his face and
8:26
probably doesn't ever get a parade and, but that, like it's to God's glory and it's not
8:32
for worldly gain.
8:33
So I see that.
8:34
I mean, I kind of looked at it as a soldier is, you know, this, the soldier, you're, you're
8:40
the first commander's Christ, you know, you live for Christ.
8:43
The athlete was, you preach the gospel, preach the truth.
8:46
And then the farmer was the sower of the seed.
8:49
You go out there and you don't stop so in that seed until your time comes.
8:53
And I think that was just kind of what he was trying to do, saying this is what you do.
8:57
You know, first you give your life to Christ, you do what he asked you to do.
9:01
This is what he's asked you to do.
9:03
Now we're, we're dealing with a gospel that's being preached because of something, you know,
9:08
a gospel that's being preached that's not the right gospel.
9:11
This is the truth.
9:12
I've given you that and I've told you that in chapter one.
9:16
And now it's like, now you don't stop.
9:18
Just keep going.
9:19
Don't be afraid.
9:20
This was interesting too.
9:21
It said we test them by the word of God and particularly the doctrines of grace is given
9:25
by Paul.
9:26
It is not we who examine Paul to see if he is right.
9:29
It is Paul who examines us.
9:32
That stood out to me as I read through this, you know, this is pretty definitive in what
9:35
he's saying.
9:36
He's talking about soldiers not getting distracted because they're there for their commander and
9:39
all of those sorts of things.
9:42
So what I was going to say is like the harvest is really interesting to me because if you're
9:47
talking about the harvest as a pastor or as a father or as a disciple, as someone who's
9:53
discipling someone, the pastor's harvest is people who come to Christ, right?
9:58
He can't control who comes to Christ.
10:02
Just as a farmer, I mean, you can work as hard as you want and get a crappy harvest because
10:06
that's just how the chips fell.
10:08
But what doesn't change is how hard he works.
10:11
Whether he gets a good harvest or a bad harvest, he works the same amount.
10:15
If he's a good farmer, he's going to work as hard as he can, no matter what.
10:19
And same with the pastor.
10:21
You might have one person come to Christ that week.
10:23
You might have 50.
10:25
You're still putting in the same hours, you're still putting in the same amount of work because
10:29
the harvest isn't yours anyway.
10:30
But the work is.
10:31
Well, that's why I tell people all the time is they're like, you know, over the years
10:35
as your shows grown and as, you know, the impact of what Don't To Life is doing, blah, blah,
10:39
blah, whatever compliment, everything they say, what about your preparation has changed?
10:43
What are you better at?
10:44
What are you more efficient at?
10:45
And I'm like, this is not going to be good for your, for your business class.
10:48
I'm doing the same level of work as I was when I started when I had tens of listeners
10:53
versus what we have today, which is significantly more than that.
10:57
I'm preparing for interviews the exact same way.
10:59
I'm preparing for solo episodes the exact same way.
11:01
Are we doing additional things?
11:02
Yeah.
11:03
Fortune table didn't exist 12 months ago, but I was in people like, you know, why?
11:07
When you had like a couple of dozen listeners, why were you preparing so hard?
11:11
It's like, so I wasn't working for you.
11:12
Like I was working as unto the Lord because, you know, and you know, and you can't do that.
11:17
You can't fill your bank account with, you know, with the hopes and dreams and unicorn
11:21
farts and oh, yeah, but a lot of people like me, like at some point it's got to be a business.
11:25
But that that's a really big deal.
11:26
It's also where you're pointing your brain and where you're pointing your attention.
11:29
And that's verse seven.
11:31
Think over what I say for the Lord will give you understanding and everything.
11:34
Think over what I say.
11:35
One of the commentaries I read is like, if we were to say that, hey, Zach, remember what
11:41
we were talking about earlier.
11:42
If you could just think that over some more, it's more like a polite suggestion.
11:45
Now, this is more like a strong admonition from Paul to Timothy.
11:50
Think this over.
11:51
Yeah, pour over it.
11:52
May I remind you of these things that I've likely told you before?
11:56
And if you do so, the payoff, the Lord will give you understanding and everything.
12:02
So to the person I feel like they're toiling in their work at whatever it is that they're
12:07
doing.
12:08
If you're where you're supposed to be, and if you're working is unto the Lord, it's
12:12
going to be it's going to work out to your redounding benefit at some point.
12:16
And the other thing, Matt, just to put a bow in this first section before we move on the
12:20
pastor, that feels like they're, you know, there's not as many people are coming to Christ
12:25
or people aren't really responding to my messages, why aren't people signing up for missions
12:28
and things like that?
12:29
It's like control the controllables that goes all the way back to my interview of legendary
12:34
local wrestling coach Hardell Moore, control the controllables, like you can't control
12:39
whether or not the kid you're wrestling that day is better than you.
12:43
You can't control that.
12:44
You can control your level of preparation, though.
12:46
You can control how how good your gas tank is those things that you can control and think
12:50
about people when they get beat in sports or in business or whatever.
12:53
It's like, man, they were just flat out better.
12:56
There's literally nothing more I could have done before this.
12:59
And I just got beat.
13:01
That's a great place to be.
13:02
But I could I'm better than this guy.
13:05
I just got tired, dad, gummy.
13:07
And you just you can feel that like I was I was not as ready as I would have hoped and
13:11
I got exposed.
13:13
And so that's also something we see in 2 Timothy is not being caught flat footed, but that's
13:18
going to come up a little bit later.
13:20
I do want to get into this next section versus 8 through 13.
13:24
So Matt, could you actually read verses 8 through 13, please?
13:27
Sure.
13:28
Remember Jesus Christ risen from the dead, the offspring of David has preached in my
13:32
gospel for which I am suffering, found with chains as a criminal, but the word of God
13:37
is not bound.
13:38
Therefore, I endure everything for the sake of the elect that they also may obtain a salvation
13:44
that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
13:47
The saying is trustworthy for if we have died with him, we will also live with him.
13:52
If we endure, we will also reign with him.
13:55
If we deny him, he will also he also will deny us.
13:59
If we are faithless, he remains faithful or he cannot deny himself.
14:04
But one commentary and then I want to dig in, but the word of God is not bound.
14:09
How often do you see an exclamation point in the New Testament?
14:12
Not very often.
14:13
I don't have the answer like I'm a I don't remember very many of them.
14:18
And Paul is like Paul's basically talking like he's in that chair.
14:22
That's the pounding the table chair.
14:23
For those of you that listen for a long time, I haven't pounded the chair right across me
14:27
as the will pound later.
14:28
Right.
14:29
That's we didn't have to go that far.
14:30
But the thing about it is that of all the stamps, like listen to me, like he he was probably
14:38
screaming whenever he either wrote that down or somebody else was writing it down as he
14:42
was saying it.
14:43
So that's one thing I want to throw out there.
14:45
But in this section, obviously there were there's a word that came up and Matt said it
14:49
and even like he paused just a half a breath after he said the word, do you want to take
14:53
a guess what that word is?
14:55
Why are you smiling Matt?
14:56
I'll take a guess.
14:57
Yeah, go ahead.
14:58
You wrote down because of that, Kyle may get upset, but let Matt take the lead feeling
15:03
where he did it.
15:05
So it's called it's called election.
15:07
Okay.
15:08
So I actually that was unintentional.
15:11
My pause is unintentional, but as I will say, as I pause, I was like, I didn't mean to do
15:16
that, but I know that I was going to think I heard it.
15:18
I did that on purpose.
15:19
Not only did I hear the pause.
15:20
I felt it.
15:21
I felt it on my toes, Matt.
15:23
That's how hard I felt it.
15:24
Okay.
15:25
Why don't you guys a message the other day and so I want to kind of give the listeners
15:29
a peek behind the curtain.
15:30
Then I'm going to just kind of play this out a little bit.
15:32
And it was something I can't remember exactly what I said, but it was something along the
15:35
lines of like, Hey, I don't want to close myself off to reformed Calvinistic theology.
15:41
That type.
15:42
Are you bringing up the actual text?
15:43
I can bring up the text messages below me too.
15:44
Yeah.
15:45
I guess that's supposed to be kind of like stumbling along.
15:47
I read it.
15:48
I was like, he screen shot at it.
15:50
He saved it.
15:51
He posted it on Instagram.
15:52
I did not post it on Instagram.
15:55
We're just going to have dead air happen until you find out.
15:57
Yeah.
15:58
Why don't you guys keep talking?
15:59
Well, here's my message.
16:00
There it is.
16:01
My messages.
16:02
All right.
16:03
Let's get back to reading my messages for the whole world.
16:07
Well, I have I got text from you and then text from there's the fortune tape.
16:12
Did you find the actual text?
16:13
Or did you just find where we text each other?
16:15
No, I'm going to go back now because it's up there.
16:18
Yeah, it's up there, man.
16:19
You're going to have to sit this.
16:20
Yeah.
16:21
I mean, I could just give the people that just wanted to throw this out to the group
16:25
real quick.
16:26
All right.
16:27
Here it is.
16:28
I kind of had this realization about lifting this morning.
16:30
ID test because the test is in all capitals.
16:33
You don't have to perform my text.
16:35
It'll intellectual, intellectual dishonesty.
16:38
I'd like it's like a stench on the people that I can't shake once I smell it.
16:43
In my most honest opinion or in my mo of militancy and stubbornness, I think that I've started
16:49
to dig my heels and against reformed Calvinist theology.
16:53
I think I've let some of the debates anger me more than I've let them challenge me, which
16:57
I've thrown out to you by like, dude, why are you so angry?
16:59
You're like, I'm not angry.
17:00
Well, I wasn't angry.
17:01
I think I've let some of the debates anger me more than I've let them challenge me.
17:07
I can feel myself picking a side just so that I have a side to fight on for.
17:11
I don't want to do that.
17:13
I want to keep an open mind to new ideas and arguments, which is intellectually honest
17:18
and consistent, just stream of consciousness this morning, I guess.
17:21
Okay.
17:22
So that was a message I sent to you guys.
17:24
And everyone started crying and it was like super emotional and Kyle shared his heart.
17:28
But the thing is, it's like, you know, you go to a Super Bowl party.
17:32
You haven't you've been busy.
17:33
You haven't watched the whole season.
17:34
And it's like, well, I guess I better pick a team so I can have someone to root for and
17:38
then you pick a team and then by the third quarter, you're like yelling when the receiver
17:42
for that team who you didn't know their name, you know, 45 minutes ago and you're freaking
17:47
out because they dropped a pass that would have potentially changed the game or something.
17:50
So I want to be honest and I want to ask these questions because for those of you that are
17:54
new to this, we got a couple of bonafide cabinets across the table for me.
17:57
So I got Ryan and Matt and then Zach, I don't exactly know where you land on all of this.
18:01
And so perhaps it'll come out, but I have some, I have some honest questions because
18:06
I've questioned a lot of people in this.
18:08
And frankly, there's things that I just don't understand.
18:11
And it's like, I feel like an idiot and it's like, I don't want to at least want to understand
18:15
it if I'm going to accept it or repudiate it or something like that.
18:19
So I have some yes or no questions and there's no gotchas.
18:22
Don't laugh, Matt.
18:23
Don't laugh.
18:24
I hate that.
18:25
I know, I know that.
18:26
And so, but, and so the thing is, I need you all to trust me a little bit.
18:29
Give me a little bit of, of latitude here.
18:31
I will.
18:32
I have some yes or no questions.
18:33
And so if you'll stay to the yes or no format, we will have longer format options.
18:37
I know I'm making it as awkward spots is actually just over here, giggling.
18:40
He's just loud.
18:41
He's ready.
18:42
He's ready for the awkwardness because I want, I want to get a better understanding
18:45
of this.
18:46
So are we agreeing to the format after your beautiful texts that you sent to us?
18:49
I will agree to this.
18:50
Okay.
18:51
We have one agreement.
18:52
Yes, because that's the format.
18:53
Okay.
18:54
That is the format.
18:55
And so just yes or no.
18:56
Okay.
18:57
So we'll call you out though.
18:58
If you're like, seriously, call me out because as I was writing these down, I was like, okay,
19:02
intellectual honesty, fairness, desire for the truth, all that.
19:06
That's what's in these questions.
19:07
Fair.
19:08
Okay.
19:09
First one, would you say that only the elect go to heaven?
19:13
Yes.
19:14
Yes.
19:15
Would you say that the elect are chosen by God?
19:18
Yes.
19:19
Yes.
19:20
Okay.
19:21
Would you say that the elect bring nothing to their salvation?
19:23
No.
19:24
No.
19:25
Okay.
19:27
Would you say that the elect have to hear the gospel to receive it?
19:30
Yes.
19:31
Yes.
19:32
Okay.
19:33
Would you say that the elect have to repent?
19:35
Yes.
19:36
Yes.
19:37
Okay.
19:38
Would you say that the elect have to put their faith in the gospel?
19:40
Yes.
19:41
Yes.
19:42
Okay.
19:43
The surprising thing about your answers is typically when I hear a Calvinist or a foreign
19:47
people discuss salvation or whatever, they say you don't bring anything to your own salvation
19:55
because you can't.
19:56
And then they say something along the lines of you were dead, you dead people can't do
20:00
things.
20:01
They can't reach their hand up.
20:02
They can't whatever.
20:03
Which is true.
20:04
This is true.
20:05
Okay.
20:06
And so the thing that's confusing to me is for people that do say, because you all would
20:09
acknowledge there are Calvinists that say, no, you bring nothing to your salvation.
20:12
Correct?
20:13
Yeah.
20:14
Not, not every Calvinist believes the same thing.
20:15
And there are, I think there are different degrees.
20:17
And I think people who are new to that, I guess, system of theology can be really, really
20:24
extreme in their view and they, and very stubborn.
20:27
They call it, they call it the cage stage.
20:28
Cage stage.
20:29
We've all been there.
20:30
Yeah.
20:31
It literally has, yeah.
20:32
It literally has a definition and a term to describe it.
20:36
But yeah, I think, and then there's, there's hyper Calvinists who literally, yeah, who like
20:40
you're saying, who literally think like, I can do nothing at all.
20:44
Right.
20:45
So when it, when it comes down to it, I think where they get to that mindset is you don't
20:52
recognize the gospel with, I think I lost it.
20:55
You don't recognize the gospel until God opens your eyes to it.
21:00
And so if that never happens, then you've done nothing.
21:04
So, but once your eyes are open to the gospel and God's opened your eyes, because you, you
21:08
will see through here that Paul talks about being open to your eye, if God opens their
21:14
eyes or if God allows them.
21:16
So if God allows you to hear the gospel and God allows you to understand the gospel, then
21:22
from there, this is where I disagree that you do come in, you have to one, believe it.
21:29
And two, you have to repent, you have to change your mind.
21:32
So if you were given the belief, then you are just a bystander, correct?
21:37
Like that's how a Calvinist would say, it's like, no, no, no, the only reason you believe
21:40
is because God opened your eyes.
21:42
And I would agree with that.
21:43
Yes.
21:44
But then are you saying you still get to choose whether or not you believe?
21:47
I mean, I mean, that's where you come down.
21:49
And I've thought about this, like there's a part and there's a verse in the Bible about
21:52
blaspheming in the Holy Spirit.
21:54
And so I feel it's Matthew.
21:57
Yeah, I know it's a Matthew.
21:58
I feel that I hate using the word I feel.
22:02
Let's get in our feelings.
22:03
Let's get into the feelings, guys.
22:05
Um, no, I just, when I think about that, it's like in God, why I'm a Calvinist or why I
22:12
ascribed to Calvinistic theology, which Calvinistic theology isn't, this isn't like some denomination.
22:18
I'm a Christian.
22:19
I have a, I look at God's sovereignty through a Calvinistic theology.
22:23
I believe that God is more sovereign over, over everything in actions than I am.
22:29
So I will go back and forth on free will, but, but I, I, I just think that you have to bring
22:37
something to the table.
22:38
You have to repent.
22:39
You have to, you have to do something.
22:40
But so it's hard for me.
22:41
If God is sovereign, can someone just say, Oh, I've seen the gospel and I think it's
22:45
crap.
22:46
Yeah.
22:47
I don't know.
22:48
Calvinists who are true to what the Bible teaches do not think that we are robots.
22:53
So like, I think I'm sure there are people who think that and I think I don't think some
22:57
are robot.
22:58
I mean, but we'll, we'll get that.
23:00
Yeah.
23:01
So to me, the Bible is a story of election, Jacob, Jacob, Jacob was a scoundrel.
23:05
Jacob was a deceit.
23:06
He was a deceitful person and God still chose to bless Israel through Jacob.
23:12
Like they're like the Israel, Israel like people were, were, were elected, not because
23:18
of anything they did, but because God chose him.
23:22
We see in Revelation, like our names are written on the lambs book of life that was written
23:27
before the foundation of the earth.
23:29
Like, so, so election is all throughout the Bible.
23:33
But I want to bring, I want to bring, we just talked about Spurgeon so much on our podcasts
23:37
here, but I think he really sums it up very beautifully.
23:40
And if you let me, I'd love to read this quote because this is something that I think a
23:43
lot of people grapple with like, where, where do I fall in this dichotomy in Spurgeon says
23:49
that God predestines and that man is responsible are two things that you can see.
23:54
They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory, but they are not.
23:57
It is just the fault of our weak judgment.
24:00
Two truths cannot be contradicted to each other.
24:03
If then I find taught in one place that everything is foreordained, that is true.
24:07
And if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true.
24:12
And it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can never contradict each
24:17
other.
24:18
These two truths I do not believe can ever be welded into one upon any human handle,
24:25
but one, they shall be in eternity.
24:28
There are two lines that are so nearly parallel that the mind that shall pursue them farthest
24:32
will never discover that they converge, but they do converge and they will meet somewhere
24:37
in eternity, close to the throne of God, wins all truth, doth spring.
24:42
So did you have a point on that?
24:44
Because that's a fantastic quote.
24:46
My point is, there are twin truths in the Bible, that is something that Spurgeon would
24:52
call a twin truth.
24:54
God is sovereign, but I have responsibility.
24:59
Nehemiah is a twin truth.
25:01
Nehemiah doesn't exist.
25:03
God is going to rebuild the wall.
25:05
The wall is getting rebuilt, but Nehemiah had the responsibility to go do it.
25:12
That to me, and that's one of the big things I got from the book of Nehemiah, was there
25:17
are these two things side by side that if God wanted to, he could say Nehemiah stay where
25:25
you are with Artaxerxes.
25:27
I'm going to rebuild the wall because I'm God.
25:31
I made man out of clay and I could do what I want, but God loves us so much that he's
25:37
going to give us responsibility and it's our job to fulfill that.
25:40
I hate to break this up.
25:43
I feel the same way because I'm just saying like-
25:46
As I break this up, let me hop in here.
25:49
Let me hop in here.
25:51
The bleeding woman and the dying daughter, notice that Christ is going to the dying daughter,
25:57
but the bleeding woman comes to Christ for healing.
26:01
He's going to heal the dying daughter, so that's kind of the-
26:04
So I think the part where people struggle is it's one thing to have knowledge of an outcome
26:12
and it's another thing to cause the outcome.
26:15
Like assuming the earth stays in existence, I know that the sun will set in the west this
26:21
evening, but I'm not causing that.
26:23
And that's the difference where people get into it.
26:25
As Zach, I see you nod in your head, you're being awfully quiet here.
26:28
You're taking everything into that big old brain of yours.
26:30
But like that's the thing that I feel like is that's the problem where people get to
26:36
where okay, so you're saying there's no free will because if you fast forward to verse 23,
26:41
you have not 23, 25, dot dot dot, correcting his opponents with gentleness, God may perhaps
26:47
grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.
26:50
And so it's like, so we don't repent.
26:53
God basically puts the software of repentance into our main frame.
26:59
So here's the thing.
27:00
Hold your truth.
27:01
So hold your thought.
27:02
Make sure you keep it right.
27:03
That is the most and this is not the the supreme ethic here.
27:07
That is the most intellectually unsatisfying argument that I get from people because when
27:12
I've had this discussion, not with you two or maybe with you two, but then with others
27:16
is it's like, well, we don't we don't understand everything and some things will just be made
27:20
clear to us later.
27:21
And I'm like, that's okay.
27:23
I could win every argument ever.
27:26
By using that, that can't be a crutch that can't be a crutch to use if you if you feel
27:31
like, okay, I'm not I don't have the points to win this argument.
27:35
I shouldn't.
27:36
It would be intellectually dishonest of me to say, well, we just can't know everything.
27:40
That is true.
27:42
But like that's not that's that shouldn't be used as a crutch just because I think I'm
27:44
losing it's not a crutch in the fact that we don't know God we our idea of love is totally
27:51
different than what God's idea of love is our idea of righteousness is totally different
27:55
than God's idea of righteousness like his expands a bounds that we will never see.
28:00
But what we can do is we can look into the Bible and we can look at certain things and
28:04
how they're portrayed out in the Bible and go by those things.
28:07
But I'm never going to fully have anybody can fully understand God and who God is by
28:13
all means.
28:14
I would love to hear it.
28:15
We're never going to be able to do it.
28:16
You know, we're I mean, we're still trying to get through this and I don't think anybody
28:20
would argue that that, oh, hey, there's somehow that we can get to the knowledge of God through
28:25
their study or revelation or something like that that I don't think any vice making that
28:28
argument.
28:29
It's especially when you get into this very specific part of Calvinist theology, which
28:33
came 1500 years after the the first church where it's like election where there's essentially
28:38
which I'm not saying Calvin admitted election, right?
28:41
Because you can see it and read it throughout the New Testament, whatever.
28:44
But it's it comes to the point to where it's like you have so many listen to a guy like
28:48
MacArthur and it's like we bring nothing to our salvation like you didn't choose your
28:53
salvation, you're not the world's greatest chooser like God gave that to you.
28:57
Okay.
28:58
And so like, but then again, it's like there is agreement that we must put our faith in
29:02
it action and then we must have faith and that we must repent.
29:06
Those are two action things that are required of us, which begs this, this question and
29:11
this is another honest question that I'd never thought about until I read the second chapter
29:15
here, which is, and I don't know the answer.
29:18
Is it possible to be elect and to not go to heaven?
29:23
What would you guys say?
29:24
No.
29:25
No, I don't.
29:26
If you're if you're elect, you're going to heaven.
29:27
So what you're saying is, is that every person that is elect is guaranteed to hear the gospel
29:32
in their life.
29:33
Because you also said earlier that the elect can't respond to the gospel if they never
29:37
hear, which is obviously so so where are they hearing it from?
29:41
Like I don't even care about that.
29:43
Yeah.
29:44
To answer your question.
29:45
Yes.
29:46
Like every every person that is elect is guaranteed to hear the gospel and then repent because
29:50
God is God has ordained that to have and that's why I could go back to 25 correcting his opponents
29:54
with gentleness.
29:55
God made perhaps grant them repentance.
29:58
So what it comes down to is like, if you're wrong about something and you know, and like,
30:03
I, you know, I've told you like, Hey, Kyle, I think you're wrong on this and you're like,
30:08
you realize where I'm coming from and you're like, you know what, you know what, I am wrong.
30:13
I'm sorry about that.
30:14
I mean, that's what God's doing.
30:15
God is putting in your mind like, all right, I'm wrong about this.
30:19
Now I need to change it.
30:21
And so that's what he's talking about.
30:22
So you're saying he's granting you the knowledge of, I guess the word would be the gravity,
30:26
but we still have to respond to that.
30:29
We still have to respond with repentance and belief.
30:32
I think that goes back to the harvest, doesn't it?
30:35
Like a pastor can only control that he is preaching the gospel.
30:40
The harvest is God's.
30:41
Yeah.
30:42
I guess the struggle is, is if you're saying, which I would agree that you, the elect have
30:47
to hear the gospel in order to respond to it, is this is where the free will thing comes
30:52
in because it's one thing to ordain and weave things to where they make sure that they happen,
30:57
but it would seem unlikely.
30:58
And again, I don't like using likelihood language in here whenever it comes to, you know, God's
31:03
sovereignty and all that.
31:04
So I'm treading on thin ice here and I acknowledge that.
31:07
But to say that God has elected a certain group of people, which means that he chose
31:12
them, right?
31:13
Not that he knew they would choose, right, which is what I think where a lot of people
31:17
would land is God knows what you're going to do.
31:20
But what Calvinist would say is that, no, no, he chose them to do that.
31:23
Like he, he picked them out out of the entire line of Christianity and said, you, you're
31:28
on team God, that if you get to that point, to say that the gospel is always going to
31:35
be preached to the elect takes free will out of it.
31:38
Because let's say Matt, let's say you're not saved in your elect, right?
31:42
You're on team God from before the beginning, you don't even know any, you don't even know
31:45
God exists.
31:46
And let's say, I'm the one that God weaved and ordained to be the one to share the gospel
31:51
with you.
31:52
And in someone else's free will, they put a bullet in my brain that morning and I don't
31:56
end up meeting you for coffee.
31:57
You weren't the one that was supposed to go to the gospel to me.
32:01
But is, you see how this leaves into the free real conversation that, but the point is
32:06
is hearing the gospel, your eyes are being opened as you hear it.
32:10
So what if you don't hear it?
32:12
That's the thing.
32:13
Then you're not elect.
32:14
So if this is not Zac Hoppen in the chat, let's go.
32:17
Let's go.
32:18
This is not a salvation issue, as we all say.
32:23
What's behind the consuming nature of the discussion?
32:26
And that's not a question to be answered here.
32:27
It's pretty rhetorical because I've set through a bunch of these, listen to a bunch of them
32:31
online in this group various places that I've never heard it resolved.
32:35
It will never be resolved.
32:36
Yeah.
32:37
I heard C.S. Lewis the other day brought up and then I heard a very well-known pastor.
32:42
You talk to C.S.
32:43
Lewis brought up.
32:44
And his opinion was that it's not going to be resolved in time and all this.
32:48
But let me just read a couple of things and get your thoughts on this.
32:51
And I think you're not going to like it.
32:53
But it is great.
32:54
Three on one.
32:55
I love it.
32:56
I think you'll be fine.
32:57
This is a great deal I heard it said.
32:59
So Soren Kierkegaard, if you're familiar with him, says that the divine is infinitely
33:05
qualitatively different than you.
33:08
This reminds me of Philippians 2, 5 through 6, referencing how Jesus did not count a quality
33:13
with God as something to be grasped, right?
33:17
So I listened to this discussion between some about philosophers and Dawkins and all that.
33:21
And this person said something I thought was pretty good, which is people attempting to
33:25
understand or conceptualize God must work within the framework of their own rational
33:31
limitation.
33:32
God can only be what our reason allows him to be.
33:35
Another way of saying it is that our reason constructs God.
33:39
So in this case, we have not actually encountered the truly other, the holy, the divine other,
33:45
but we have only constructed a projection of ourselves.
33:48
This would suggest that our attempts to conceptualize God will never lead to anything approximating
33:53
the reality of his essence, somewhere to how Jesus referenced heavenly things to Nicodemus.
33:58
It was not something he could understand.
34:00
So it does not seem that God intended to provide clarity in the case of this dichotomy, which
34:06
may be a gift.
34:08
We've been provided with just enough processing power to appreciate the depth of the mystery.
34:13
Perhaps to your last point, it's meant to demonstrate how infinitely qualitatively different he
34:20
is compared to us and conceivably so.
34:23
So sort of like the question of what our ever expanding universe, space, time and energy
34:29
is expanding into or emerged from, it is simply beyond our ability to grasp an awesome and
34:36
the truest sense of the word.
34:39
So I think for me, because it's so alien to our ability to understand it yet, it's two
34:44
twin truths that are kind of like an asymptote, right?
34:46
They never converge.
34:48
It may in some sense be something that's just meant for us to be in awe of.
34:55
And if it's truly not a salvation issue, I know for some people, it can get really close
34:58
to that people that I know personally, then where do we frame this exactly?
35:02
And I think for me personally, you kind of brought up in the beginning, where am I at?
35:05
But I think this is kind of where I'm at.
35:06
I've not seen it.
35:08
It's kind of like Turic and everybody else that you talk about, they all sort of settle
35:12
in this place where it's like, guys, you're not going to know it, but you're going to
35:16
get to Christ one way or another.
35:18
Well, I think the understanding is that you can't be so dogmatic about it, that it becomes
35:23
a salvation issue because then it becomes an idol in itself.
35:27
And there are people who fall in the Calvinistic camp that are so dogmatic about election and
35:33
not bringing anything to the table that they venture into a false religion that is not
35:40
Christianity.
35:41
Because what is clear is repent and believe, right?
35:44
Even in the Old Testament, that's there.
35:46
You look at Jacob.
35:47
Jacob deceives his brother twice.
35:49
He lies about his name to his dad and he says, I am Esau.
35:53
And then he wrestles with God and some scholars would say that that's the angel of the Lord
35:57
that is pre-incarnate Jesus Christ wrestling with him.
36:00
And then the angel or God says, what is your name?
36:06
Like he doesn't know.
36:07
Of course he knows.
36:08
He knows it's Jacob.
36:09
And there's this moment of repentance and redemption for Jacob who will be blessed and
36:14
Jesus will come out of that line and nations will be blessed because of Jacob and he says,
36:19
I am Jacob.
36:21
And it's this moment of I'm repenting, I'm being honest and now I'm being vulnerable
36:26
and I'm at the table bringing nothing but honesty.
36:30
And he said, like, I will not let go until you bless me and he says, what's your name?
36:35
It's Jacob.
36:36
You are no longer Jacob.
36:37
You are Israel because you wrestled with God.
36:39
So even in the Old Testament, it is repent and believe.
36:44
And that is why I can call someone who would say Calvinism is stupid.
36:49
I can still call your brother in Christ because we agree on that foundational thing, which
36:55
is salvation.
36:56
So I want to make sure we're being precise in our language.
37:00
So Zach and Matt, when you talk about being a salvation issue, you're saying there are
37:04
people that think if you are not Calvinistic in your personal theology, that you will be
37:08
going to hell.
37:09
Is that a fair way of saying that?
37:11
I don't know that I could say that definitively.
37:13
I'm sure there are people who think that if you don't believe in Calvinism, you're not
37:16
actually a Christian.
37:17
I'm sure you believe if you don't believe in free will, you're not going to heaven.
37:20
Yes.
37:21
I guess when I when I hear Zach, when I heard you say, you know, basically not a salvation
37:25
issue, Matt, not a salvation issue, in my head, I'm like, wait a minute.
37:29
That's exactly what we're talking about.
37:31
We're discussing.
37:32
Wait.
37:33
Okay.
37:34
This is exactly what we're talking about because the way I'm looking at it.
37:36
So one of the early critiques of the forging table was someone was like, I don't know how
37:41
to apply this directly to my life.
37:43
Like, how do I apply this?
37:44
So let's take it to ground level.
37:46
I have two sons.
37:48
I don't know if they're elect or not, and it won't be revealed to me because something
37:52
may die, never be revealed to you.
37:54
Sure.
37:55
So we get to this point where why and don't just say it's because Bible tells you you're
38:00
supposed to, but it's like, why would I share the gospel with my boys?
38:04
Because if both are elect, one or the other is elect or neither of them are elect, my actions
38:10
in this don't matter because God is sovereign and will ordain it for his glory.
38:14
And if I didn't share it, someone would have shared it anyway.
38:17
That's where people get wrapped around the axle with this Calvinistic theology, because
38:20
I've yet wait, because I've yet to have a, a died in the wool Calvinist explained to
38:25
me why we should do mission work because it's like these people are going to hear the gospel.
38:31
Anyway, why am I putting together a fundraiser to send people to the, you know, mountains
38:36
of Guatemala?
38:37
I don't even know if mountains are in Guatemala to find this lost people group to supposedly
38:41
give them this, that or the other.
38:43
And I, and I know the answers and it's like, Oh, but we're the hands and feet and we're
38:46
commanded to do it anyway.
38:47
And we may not understand, but we just have to walk by faith.
38:50
I see what I'm saying.
38:51
It's like, it's, it's freezing.
38:52
I see what you're saying, but I think this goes into another dichotomy of we are called
38:56
to preach.
38:57
We are called to preach the gospel.
38:58
We are called to be faithful.
39:00
So me personally, me personally, if I, if I'm looking at my two kids and I don't know
39:05
who, I don't know which one is going to heaven or if they're both going, like God doesn't
39:11
have grandchildren.
39:12
So like I either of those options could be true.
39:17
I preach the gospel because that's mandated to me by Christ.
39:21
But that's, that's for me, like I am not fulfilling my call as a Christian.
39:28
If I'm not preaching the gospel, like even to my kids.
39:33
So it is, it is one, an issue of, of my calling and my obedience.
39:41
So we are all called to be obedient to the gospel call, like preach the gospel because
39:45
it's literally Christ tells us his disciples, like go, go take, go make disciples of the
39:49
earth.
39:50
Like take it to the ends of the earth.
39:52
And so I think if we say, doesn't matter, then we are, then we are in air and we are
39:58
in sin and we are not fulfilling the commandment that Christ gives us.
40:03
Go baptizing the name of the father and son of the Holy Spirit.
40:05
Go make, go make disciples of the nations.
40:07
So I think that's, for me, that's the simple, simplistic way to look at it is that's my
40:11
call.
40:12
That's our call to go preach the gospel.
40:13
And when it comes to my belief in soterology or salvation, it's not, it's not.
40:19
Soteriology.
40:20
Soteriology.
40:21
Sorry.
40:22
Sorry, Jobe.
40:23
Someone's got it.
40:24
Sorry.
40:25
Oh man.
40:26
Might as well be me.
40:27
Might as well be you.
40:28
But, um, no, it's just, I don't think it's an excuse for laziness, you know, it's, it's,
40:35
it's like we talked about catechizing our kids, like, okay, yeah, I may believe that one of
40:41
my kids are elect or I don't know if they're elect or not or whatever.
40:44
I don't still go out there and be like expect the church to catechize them.
40:48
You know, I don't expect them to be catechized in Sunday school.
40:50
You know, I still have a job to do as a father and as a parent.
40:54
And so I still have a job to do as a Christian and my job is to go out there and make disciples
40:59
of the nation of each nation.
41:01
And so when I go and I, and I talk about the gospel, I talk about the gospel and some
41:04
people are going to listen and be like, yeah, I'm, I'm really interested in what you're talking
41:07
about and come and listen.
41:09
And some people are not going to be interested and they're going to walk away and I'll never
41:12
see them again, you know, but it's like sales, you know, I'm going to have somebody that's
41:16
going to really want to listen to what I have to say doesn't mean I did the product.
41:19
I made the product, you know, I'm just a messenger of the product and it's up to them to whether
41:25
to believe in the product.
41:26
I think so.
41:27
I think you find a good example of this in Esther where she's, you know, called to go
41:34
to the king and plead on behalf of her people.
41:39
And I can't remember the guy's name.
41:40
It's her uncle.
41:41
I think, right?
41:42
She says why, like it's basically why me.
41:44
I don't want to do this.
41:45
And he's, his response is if you don't, God will use someone else, but you will be in
41:50
disobedience to God.
41:52
God's will will be done no matter what we do.
41:56
But it is our job and our duty to be obedient to that call.
42:01
And if she had said, no, I'm not going to do it.
42:04
Someone else would have popped up.
42:05
God would have raised somebody else to do it, but she would have been in sin and she's probably
42:10
in hell.
42:11
And I like, that's a very like my cowboy to look at it, but his point was your duty bound.
42:18
You're called to do this obey and do it because God's will will be done either way.
42:23
Fair.
42:24
So would you say, and by the way, for people that are listening to this, like these are
42:27
conversations that we've had before and because I can already feel the emails that are going
42:33
to be hitting my inbox.
42:34
Well, you don't believe in this and barely you idiot.
42:37
And it's like, okay, like part of it is there are a lot of people that have these questions
42:40
because y'all don't get to see the comments and emails and DMs, but I do.
42:45
And people from all sides of this argument and that the thing is is there's a level of
42:49
confusion here.
42:50
Zach, you pointed out earlier, you listen to hours because I've listened to hours of
42:55
debates on the subject to no one ever wins.
42:58
Like no, no one ever comes away in like as an audience member, you feel so dissatisfied
43:03
because you're so excited to, okay, be convinced and then you don't get convinced.
43:07
But would you guys say that repentance and salvation is forced upon people by God?
43:15
Like they they have to take it like it's a gift that they don't get an option to accept.
43:20
As you see what I'm saying?
43:21
Like that's another thing that's confusing.
43:22
But I think that's the thing that we get stuck on is like, what I love about tulip if we
43:30
were going to talk about tulip is the very first thing.
43:33
Total depravity.
43:34
If we don't understand how depraved we are, we're never going to see the beauty of the
43:38
gospel.
43:39
You can you understand how depraved you are and still not respond to the gospel?
43:42
Yeah, if you're not a like, you see how unsatisfying that is because it's like, oh, because you're
43:48
not like that's not an answer, I'm going to say everything unsatisfying because I don't
43:52
know.
43:53
All I know is that.
43:54
Which is also not a satisfactory.
43:55
I'm not going to have the answer to all your questions.
43:57
This is what I believe.
43:58
I'm not here to change your mind.
43:59
I think that's here's the thing.
44:00
But if I'm wrong.
44:01
Let me finish.
44:02
If I'm wrong.
44:03
If you're, it doesn't matter how you how you came to Christ to me, honestly, if I'm wrong
44:07
about the thinking if my theology is wrong, it needs to be pointed out and corrected.
44:11
No, well, no, but my thing is like, I have a different view.
44:14
You have a different, I have a different view of free will than you do.
44:17
So, but my thing is, if you think you're free will is what brought you to Christ and I can
44:21
see through your fruit that you're a Christian.
44:22
I don't care.
44:23
I don't care.
44:24
Where you think you came to Christ, I could, I could honestly believe, you know what?
44:28
God opened his eyes, but you may not see it that way.
44:31
But it's not something I'm going to go.
44:32
It's not a hill.
44:33
I'm going to go die on.
44:34
You know, I'm not going to say, well, that brother believes in that.
44:35
So I'm not, you know, I'm not going to go and do anything with him.
44:38
No, I'm going to discuss how what I believe and you can either take it and be like, hey,
44:43
I want to hear more about that.
44:44
Or you can say, no, I totally disagree with you and we never talk about it again.
44:47
Why are you so mad?
44:48
I'm not mad.
44:49
I don't know.
44:50
You see what I'm saying?
44:51
Like, so you would say.
44:52
You know why I'm mad because usually we have this conversation.
44:53
I have a good cigar and a nice whiskey next to me.
44:55
And we're sitting here drinking water like losers, but like, so you would say.
44:59
Right.
45:00
Right.
45:01
Right.
45:02
Right.
45:03
We can fix one of those at some point in this conversation.
45:04
So you would say then that salvation is not a gift that's accepted, but it's God just gives
45:10
it to us and it's ours at that moment.
45:12
It's given to us.
45:13
It's like we even talk about his grace and why we, you know, receive salvation.
45:18
Okay.
45:19
Would you say the same thing?
45:20
Like it's a gift that we can't not accept.
45:22
We have to accept it.
45:23
If you're elect.
45:24
Yeah, you're going to accept it.
45:25
Yeah.
45:26
That's not what I asked.
45:27
Yes.
45:28
Yeah.
45:29
That's a gift that God opens your eyes to the gospel.
45:30
You will accept it.
45:31
It's a year.
45:32
So it's like if God opens your eyes to the gospel, you're saying it is impossible for
45:36
us to resist it.
45:37
Dead man can't say themselves and we're all dead to our sin.
45:41
So what you're saying is is that we're pre-programmed, if you will, we are going to accept it.
45:47
There's nothing we can do about it, which means we still have to repent and have faith.
45:52
Yeah.
45:53
Okay.
45:54
Fair enough.
45:55
But like, am I the one doing that?
45:56
You're going to do it.
45:57
You're going to repent.
45:58
Just because God opened your eyes to the gospel and you see your depravity, you're still going
46:03
to repent because you're going to be like, look who I am.
46:07
And this is why I need a savior.
46:09
So I can choose to repent or not is what you're saying is that I want to be fair.
46:14
Romans 1 talks about Paul in his letter to the Romans and what we know as chapter 1 talks
46:21
about God gives people up to their own lustful desires.
46:26
So yeah, I think, but again, this goes back to what Zach is saying where God has revealed
46:33
what he has wanted to reveal and what is inescapable is that Christ said, no one comes
46:42
to the Father except through me, repent and believe the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
46:49
Repent and believe that is verb.
46:51
Yeah.
46:52
But that is that's that's it.
46:54
Like that's the that's the thing that we can hang our hat on.
46:57
And when you see Paul give push back to people, it's because people are adding to that.
47:04
That's so what we're talking about here is not adding to it.
47:08
It's a way of understanding it.
47:11
This is change of mind.
47:12
So you do have to change your mind on who you are and how you've been living.
47:17
You have to change your mind towards a Christ molded and change of action.
47:21
Well, that's here's the thing we're in 180.
47:24
Well, here's the thing, change of action is going to take time.
47:27
So this is like, I think this is where you get hung up on is with John MacArthur's lordship
47:32
salvation and where he believes that once you're saved, you automatically change.
47:36
No, we have a sin nature.
47:38
You know, I'm in the reason don't lose your train thought.
47:41
The reason is is because the seven year old that becomes a Christian.
47:44
They're not like definitively different than they were yesterday because they're seven.
47:49
They're just a stupid version of a human, but they're still learning right and they
47:52
still have a signature.
47:53
We all have a signature.
47:54
We repent every day.
47:55
We change our mind every day.
47:56
So I love MacArthur.
47:58
I might disagree with him on that.
47:59
So would you guys say as well and again, I feel like that lady from that Jordan Peterson
48:03
area back in the day.
48:04
So what you're saying is and that's what I'm trying not to be that person.
48:07
So so the other day, and this would be a couple of months ago now, but Phil Robertson, amazing
48:13
guy, he posted a picture of him baptizing one of his grandchildren, his granddaughter and
48:19
the verbiage of the post with something along the lines of this is me baptizing my granddaughter
48:24
after she chose to put her faith in Christ or chose to, you know, do all those types of
48:29
things.
48:30
And I was like, Calvinists aren't going to like that very much because the word choice
48:33
is like it's basically a cuss word to Calvinist to where it's like, no, no, she didn't choose
48:38
anything.
48:39
She's not a great chooser.
48:40
That's the MacArthur style.
48:41
You know what I mean?
48:42
Multiple times where people say that.
48:43
You know what I do?
48:44
You know what I do?
48:45
I rejoice because that person's been baptized and they're showing that they're a believer
48:50
whether they think they chose it or not.
48:52
If they're being baptized or showing a fruit, they're showing obedience, I'm going to rejoice
48:56
in that.
48:57
I'm not going to sit there and be the nitpicky Theo, bro.
48:59
That's going to be like, oh, they didn't choose.
49:01
I want to be rejoice and that I think that's the difference.
49:04
I think that's the difference and I think that's where Calvinists are getting kind of
49:07
a bad rap.
49:08
And rightfully so.
49:09
And I agree.
49:10
A lot of them.
49:11
Yeah.
49:12
And there are a lot that are very arrogant, that are very dogmatic, that are very like,
49:16
I know it.
49:17
I'm right.
49:18
You're wrong.
49:19
You can't.
49:20
There's nothing you can say to dissuade me from that where like what Ryan saying is,
49:24
we should rejoice there.
49:26
They're the brother of the prodigal son.
49:29
They're the brother that's saying, I'm doing everything right.
49:30
Why is it?
49:31
Why did that guy get to come in?
49:32
When we should be saying, it doesn't matter if I'm the prodigal son or if I'm the son
49:37
that stayed at home.
49:38
What really matters is that God gave a house for me to be in it all.
49:44
And that is where we should hang our hat.
49:46
So these, these notes I wrote like four or five days ago, just for me to process through
49:51
it was never intended to be shared.
49:52
I brought it up because you brought up this question and interestingly, and Ephesians
49:57
two, eight through 10, because I would lean towards this Armenian perspective naturally,
50:02
but it's difficult to argue against when it says we read that for, for by grace, you have
50:07
been saved through faith.
50:09
And this is not your own doing.
50:10
It is the gift of God, not as a result of works so that no one may boast for we or his
50:14
work, workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
50:20
that we should walk in them.
50:22
Clearly this has Calvinistic elements, but I would suggest that the work from our vantage
50:26
point does not do itself.
50:28
I would guess that Ryan and Matt feel compelled by the spirit to actively engage in good works
50:33
like TFT.
50:35
So at some level, these works are meaningful to them, otherwise they would not do them.
50:39
So why do these two Calvinists feel compelled to read and spread the word of God to strangers
50:43
on a podcast to Kyle's previous points?
50:46
We share.
50:47
Why do we share at all?
50:48
I would argue that every person saved by God and indwelled by the Holy Spirit will be
50:52
generating fruit, not satisfied to coast on their own elected status.
50:57
Those that don't are likely false converts.
51:00
For now, this is my position.
51:02
I ask God to save me, I remember it clearly.
51:06
I am confident that I've been saved.
51:08
I know that I am not the same as I was and will never be.
51:12
I thank God for that, yet I don't deserve it and I don't understand it.
51:15
My conversion is created a thirst to pray, read his word, and to act on behalf of his
51:20
kingdom that didn't previously exist, and that's the outcome regardless of the pathway,
51:25
a miracle in my view.
51:28
So save by grace through faith for good works.
51:33
So I have a question.
51:34
I want to pause right here and take a vote.
51:36
Okay.
51:37
Shut up, Matt.
51:38
All right.
51:39
Here's the vote.
51:40
I'm freaking mustache giggling over there.
51:41
Okay.
51:42
So there is a bunch of great stuff, especially verses 14 through 19 of 2 Timothy two.
51:50
So here's the vote.
51:52
The vote is we're either going to continue this conversation to its logical end, wherever
51:58
that is, where we all are generally satisfied, but all somewhat dissatisfied on the Calvinism
52:02
thing.
52:03
And we're going to pick up on the next recording with kind of verse 14 and then kind of transition
52:07
into chapter three, or we transition to verse 14 of chapter two right now and give it like
52:14
five or 10 minutes of our time and attention.
52:15
I want to get more time and attention to the other one.
52:18
Okay.
52:19
Are you voting for keeping this conversation and then start, you want to keep the election
52:22
conversation going?
52:23
We'll keep it going.
52:24
Yeah, that's one.
52:25
That's yeah.
52:26
Two Zach doesn't matter.
52:27
You're the odd man out.
52:28
Mainly because I think I think five minutes to what the rest of chapter two is, is not.
52:33
Even just what we talked about before we started recording, like there's, there's, there's
52:36
a lot there, not to say that there's not a lot in chapter three guys.
52:39
And everyone's dissatisfied at the end of a forging table episode because there's things
52:43
that we wanted to say.
52:44
And it's like, Oh, why didn't we talk about this?
52:46
So let's talk a little bit about fruit, okay?
52:49
So again, it always seems like I'm picking on MacArthur so much so that people like,
52:52
why do you hate MacArthur?
52:53
It's like, I literally on the table, and this is not a prop.
52:56
This is a MacArthur Bible commentary that I go to what I'm saying, I know I'm agreeing
53:01
with you.
53:02
Okay, MacArthur's got a little bit of like tinge to him, you know, okay, so, so here's
53:06
the thing that really confused me.
53:08
And I don't, I don't remember which sermon it was exactly or which thing I read or something
53:12
like that.
53:13
But it was whatever scripture you'll know them by their fruit and in making sure you
53:17
see fruit.
53:18
And I heard it had to have been a sermon within the last year from a car through and he was
53:22
talking about people's fruit and he was basically like, it's going to be so obvious that it's
53:28
good fruit coming from this person that that it's going to be so clear that they're Christian.
53:34
And I thought about it like, what is fruit?
53:36
So if you see somebody behaving properly, is that fruit of salvation or is that they're
53:42
checking moral boxes and doing quote unquote doing the right thing?
53:46
So that caused some confusion.
53:47
The thing I brought up earlier, Ryan with, you know, the seven year old girl that is
53:50
nice and sits in the front row and does her homework and feeds her doggy.
53:54
And then she gets saved however that happens.
53:56
And then she's the same girl afterwards, like her process of sanctification has begun.
54:02
And you know, she's going to be forged over time, but it's like, there's no fruit in this
54:06
young lady that wasn't there beforehand, because what is fruit?
54:10
What are we looking for in somebody?
54:13
And so I want to have that discussion of fruit because what I came away from with the teachings
54:17
of MacArthur is no one's fruit is sweet enough.
54:22
Like we're all so unbelievably depraved and it goes to something I talked about with John
54:25
Cooper whenever I kind of coined this, but it's like delayed sanctification.
54:29
Like I feel like I was saved in high like in high school in 10th grade.
54:34
And then by the time I got to college, I just kind of was on like a dry spell for a really
54:37
long time, wasn't really reading the word, wasn't really going, I was kind of going to
54:41
church off and on.
54:42
And so it's like, was I just not saved during that time?
54:45
Was I saved, but lazy?
54:47
Was I saved, but disobedient?
54:49
Am I capable of disobedience now?
54:51
Because now I'm, you know, in the lambs book of life and all that.
54:54
So I know I'm throwing a lot out there.
54:56
The fruits discussion has been so cumbersome.
54:58
Okay.
54:59
So salvation to me is is a trinity of sorts where we can look at it and say, okay, I was
55:05
saved, boom, done, but if you look at it from God's perspective, I think, and what the Bible
55:13
says, we were saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.
55:20
And if you look at it that way, we were saved by Jesus's perfect life, death and resurrection
55:25
on the cross.
55:26
We are being saved through sanctification and we will be saved at his second coming.
55:32
So this is a process that is like God, eternal before the foundation, he is, he was and he
55:38
will be like salvation is a similar thing where it's not this one solid point in time
55:44
that I can point to which it is, but it's not, it's, it's more than that.
55:49
It's not less than that, but it's more than that too.
55:51
So I think, I think because we're so linear, we like to say, okay, I was saved at whatever
55:58
date.
55:59
And then I'm good.
56:00
But that's not the case.
56:01
We were, we are and we will.
56:04
I think I look back at Galatians five versus 19.
56:08
Are you sure about?
56:09
Oh, I'm sorry.
56:10
I just want to make sure I understood that.
56:12
So you got salvation in an instant and you're being sanctified through this progression.
56:18
Yes.
56:19
Those are not the same things, right?
56:20
Well, so no, I don't know, maybe I'm, maybe I'm not explaining this correctly, but because
56:29
of the work of Jesus Christ, all who call on his name were saved.
56:33
That was, that was the point where death was defeated, but then we're also being saved
56:40
in current time by our saying, because we are being sanctified, God is, God is sanctifying
56:45
us, but then we will, we will receive our ultimate salvation, which is eternal communion
56:53
with God in Christ's second coming.
56:57
The hardest thing about the fruit thing for me going down that path and what he was talking
57:01
about is when you start thinking about people like Robbie Zacharias, you know, that, I mean,
57:06
I've heard a lot of people talking those terms.
57:07
Yeah.
57:08
And so it's difficult to understand fruit.
57:09
It's difficult to understand if he was just being sanctified and he was saved at one point.
57:13
I mean, who know?
57:14
And I guess it's like sin nature too.
57:16
Like, so let's say that was his varsity sin and his, his personal life.
57:20
Cause like for me, in terms of categorically, Robbie Zacharias and I have the exact same
57:24
struggle when it comes to sexual sin.
57:27
Now I'm not creating like personal massage, whorehouses all over the globe and then, you
57:32
know, charging it to the ministry.
57:34
But at the same time, I have to fight the lust of my eyes constantly and I'm assuming
57:39
that's going to happen until the day that I die.
57:41
But let's say I start acting on it, right?
57:44
And like, is that bad?
57:46
Is that just bad fruit or is it like evidence that I just never say?
57:50
You got tempted and you, and you fell into the flesh.
57:52
You didn't listen to the Holy Spirit.
57:53
I mean, we all deal with it.
57:55
I, I, my wife, like, let me go through this real quick.
57:59
So Galatians 5 19 through 23, um, now the works of the flesh are evident.
58:05
Sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, emity, strife, jealousy, fits of
58:11
anger, rivalries, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, orgies, things like these.
58:17
I warn you as I've warned before that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom
58:22
of God.
58:23
So the fruit of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
58:28
gentleness, self control against such things.
58:31
There is no law.
58:33
So they're ideal with fits of anger.
58:36
Um, I, I deal with impatience, like just two weeks ago, we were driving to church.
58:42
Some guy decided to stop in the middle of the parking lot and let his kids out, like rather
58:47
than go up under the awning where everybody goes to let everybody out.
58:50
No, he stops.
58:51
He just stops right there, it's not, no, his sinful, his behavior wasn't sinful.
58:57
My behavior was, I was very impatient.
58:59
I'm like, what are you doing?
59:00
Dude?
59:01
Come on.
59:02
I need to get a parking spot so I can get in there and get to get to adult Bible fellowship
59:06
on time.
59:07
Yeah.
59:08
You know, and so my wife points out like you deal with impatience and I in my flesh,
59:13
I'm like, no, that guy was wrong.
59:16
He dealt with, you know, but then I go, I ponder it and I think about it and I reach
59:20
out to God.
59:21
And this is the difference.
59:22
This is sanctification, you know, whether you have those thoughts and feelings.
59:26
If you're having fleshly eyes and another woman is coming back and knowing I am out
59:32
of the fruit and I need to work on that fruit and, and that's fruit right there.
59:37
That I, I would say is fruit.
59:39
I noticed that I have this issue.
59:42
I'm repentant of that issue and I'm going to work on that.
59:44
Am I going to get impatient?
59:45
Yeah.
59:46
I got impatient trying to get a drink today because I wanted to get here on time, you
59:49
know, I'm like, Hey, what am I doing here?
59:51
15 minutes.
59:52
Like, you know, like this is ridiculous and I catch myself, but the girl comes and she's
59:55
like, here you go.
59:56
And I'm like, thank you, man.
59:57
You know, I move on.
59:58
I don't go off.
59:59
But no, there's me getting impatient again and that yes, it happens, but the fact that
1:00:04
I know it happens and I'm trying to work on it, that's the fruit.
1:00:07
I think that sometimes we can get stuck on other people's fruit and what, what Paul's
1:00:12
saying in Galatians is that we should keep our eye out for everybody else's fruit.
1:00:17
Should it be that to me, my fruit, the evidence that I should see in my own life is what Paul
1:00:26
talks about as the fruit fruits of the spirit and, but we get hung up on, not that we shouldn't
1:00:31
call out sin, but like we get hung up on other people's fruit.
1:00:34
They're not displaying fruit or that's not fruit or my wife does something that's not
1:00:38
fruit or my kids do something that's not the fruit of the spirit.
1:00:41
Like, I think we can get so hung up on other people's stuff and we should, we should hate
1:00:45
the sin in our own life more than we hate other people's sin.
1:00:49
And so it's a, it's an interesting, yeah, the reason why at the end of that, those notes
1:00:54
I describe my situation as a personal miracle is because I'm by no means, fall is not even
1:01:00
close, but the sin that I have been able to overcome in my life, you know, kind of post
1:01:05
versus pre is definitely a miracle in that sense.
1:01:09
Yeah.
1:01:10
And that's real fruit and you know it to be genuine.
1:01:12
Yeah.
1:01:13
And I think it's kind of like what they'll say about, you know, porn or whatever, like
1:01:16
I know when I see it, right?
1:01:17
I want to say to Ryan and Matt and Kyle that I know you guys to a certain extent, I believe
1:01:22
that you've been saved.
1:01:23
I've seen fruit and all that.
1:01:24
I'll never know the truest depth of if you have a Ravi hanging out in there or not, but
1:01:28
I genuinely think that everybody at this table is we all got a Ravi is just whether you act
1:01:32
upon it or not.
1:01:34
I think that's the, the consternation for me, Zach, is you hear these going back to, excuse
1:01:39
you guys, but going back to these people have these crazy testimonies, and it's like needle
1:01:47
in their arm, you know, belt around their, you know, arm, they're dead, they hover over
1:01:52
their body.
1:01:53
God's like, don't do that anymore sends them back into their body.
1:01:56
And from that day forward, they don't even want hair whenever again, right?
1:02:00
And you hear that.
1:02:02
And then I want to be happy for him, but at the same time, it's like, look, I have to
1:02:07
actively not look at porn and masturbate every day because that's what I used to do.
1:02:11
And that hasn't been a part of my life for a long, long, long time.
1:02:15
It's like, it's, it's almost like it's a complete stranger.
1:02:20
But if I were to run into them, it's like my best friend for my entire life.
1:02:23
That's what sexual sin and sexual temptation is for me.
1:02:27
And so what that does is I'm like, oh, man.
1:02:31
And I wrestle with my personal salvation all the time because I want to make sure I'm
1:02:34
getting it right, you know, because I'm type A and all that crap.
1:02:36
But it's like, oh, no, like, why am I still struggling with these thoughts?
1:02:41
Why am I still struggling?
1:02:42
And it's like, you know, I was like hoping at some point, it's like, okay, I've gotten
1:02:45
to a level of maturity because, you know, Matt, you've known me the longest.
1:02:49
We know each other for, you know, 20 years at this point, like I used to let sports ruin
1:02:53
my night constantly, whether I was in a part of that sport or whether it was a team that
1:02:59
I just really, really liked.
1:03:00
And so I noticed this the other day, I mean, we're just we're well off into the overtime
1:03:04
section on this one.
1:03:05
That's what it is.
1:03:06
But I noticed this the other day.
1:03:07
And it kind of made me sad a little bit, if I'm being honest.
1:03:10
But I am a, I feel like I'm a much dimmer version of who I used to be.
1:03:16
Good and bad.
1:03:17
So what I mean by that is big St. Louis Cardinals fan.
1:03:20
I would watch a St. Louis Cardinals game.
1:03:22
If they walk it off, come back, win in the bottom of the night, then in the playoffs,
1:03:25
I'm losing my mind high five and running down the street naked.
1:03:29
Same thing.
1:03:30
You get walked off on, you lose a game playoff game, important game elimination game.
1:03:35
Oh, I'm custom and I'm fighting and I'm ready to, you know, and I'm, it affects me the next
1:03:39
day.
1:03:40
Can't even talk to anyone at work.
1:03:42
So I feel like the, the expansiveness and the range of my happiness and sadness has shrunken
1:03:50
to where I don't even watch sports.
1:03:51
If I care about the outcome, because I can't control it.
1:03:55
I can't control that, that angry ginger anger, like that pridefulness that I want my team
1:04:00
that wears red to win this game.
1:04:03
And so it was, it was almost sad to me though, because it's like, I feel dimmer.
1:04:08
I feel less extroverted.
1:04:10
I feel like yeah, in some ways more mature, but it's like less passionate, like less myself
1:04:16
to where it's like, I'm glad I don't recognize the knucklehead part of who I was 10 years
1:04:20
ago.
1:04:21
But man, there's a lot of fun and a lot of happiness I'm leaving on the table as well.
1:04:25
And some people are like, that's not healthy.
1:04:26
Just get rid of the crazy guy and keep the passionate guy.
1:04:29
I'm like, I can't, like I can't, I can't piecemeal it.
1:04:32
You know what I mean?
1:04:33
Like it's all part of the same package.
1:04:35
There's a sense of maturity there, because I feel the same way.
1:04:37
I've had the same thoughts, um, before I was, for those of you not watching, I about launched
1:04:45
across this table and choked the dude out, we're in a soccer jersey, the soccer, um,
1:04:50
no, I've had the same, I've had the same thought before I was married and had kids.
1:04:56
I was a pretty fun guy, like, I was probably a real big D bag, but I was pretty funny.
1:05:01
Well, you referred to yourself in the third person.
1:05:03
I did.
1:05:04
So I would say yes.
1:05:05
I was a D bag.
1:05:06
I will say that, uh, but I was witty.
1:05:10
I was funny.
1:05:11
Like I could like, I could, somebody said something that could drop a joke real quick.
1:05:14
Yeah.
1:05:15
And like, I don't do that anymore.
1:05:17
Um, I just don't.
1:05:18
I'm just, why?
1:05:19
Because I have kids and half the times I dropped that joke that made everybody laugh.
1:05:22
I get in trouble.
1:05:23
You know, um, you know, it's usually like, same back in ABF.
1:05:27
Yeah.
1:05:28
Uh, two weeks ago, you know, I dropped a joke on something that you said.
1:05:31
Like there was some truth in it, but it was funny and I couldn't go into the truth because
1:05:36
everybody started laughing, but, um, but that's the thing.
1:05:39
Like I used to be that witty, but now I kind of catch myself that I don't.
1:05:44
I just kind of let those times go, but it's also a sign of maturity.
1:05:47
We heard the description today of elders.
1:05:50
Yeah.
1:05:51
Think about what that looks like.
1:05:54
And I think everybody is kind of on that trajectory in a sense because I, I kind of
1:05:58
equate an elder in a, in a way like to a shade tree, like it's very stable.
1:06:01
It provides confidence and air and, and you know, a sense of safety to those around.
1:06:07
You can't necessarily do that if you're on an emotional high and low all the time.
1:06:11
So I see what you're talking about is progression in some sense.
1:06:14
I understand the passion.
1:06:15
You're also a dad now with kids and a family and everything else and that has its own ability
1:06:19
to kind of temper things.
1:06:20
So I don't think I'd waste too much time thinking about, you know, what that was before to stay
1:06:25
focused on where you're headed.
1:06:27
And it's like, how can you burn off like if you could direct your own maturity, which
1:06:32
I don't know how much we can, but how, how much do you burn off, but leave the strongest
1:06:37
parts of the tree?
1:06:38
Because you talk about separate the wheat from the chaff and burn off the useless parts
1:06:42
or something like that.
1:06:43
If you think about it organizationally, so let's say you come in and you're responsible
1:06:47
for in all this have varying levels of corporate experience.
1:06:50
There's a hundred people in this company, but we're hemorrhaging money right now.
1:06:54
And we've somehow got to cut people, cut assets while keeping the, the realness of who we
1:07:01
are and the core of who we are as a company and to keep an attitude of a positivity and
1:07:08
stick to it.
1:07:09
And we can do this and moxie and would you a hutzpah?
1:07:12
You said hutzpah.
1:07:13
Early Ryan, great use of hutzpah.
1:07:14
Like how do you do that?
1:07:16
How do you burn off the pieces that aren't allowing you to do that?
1:07:19
You see, Elon must take over Twitter, he fires like 80% of the employees, Twitter is apparently
1:07:24
running better than it ever has.
1:07:25
And it's like, you know, how can you do that, but keep an identity moving forward?
1:07:29
And so I don't have a point there guys and for guys listening to this, I don't have a
1:07:34
point where it's like, Oh, and I've discovered that this is the right answer to how to do
1:07:38
that.
1:07:39
I just was doing some introspection and had some long drives without, without anything
1:07:43
playing.
1:07:44
And it's just like, almost like, who am I?
1:07:46
Like who is this guy?
1:07:47
It's like, I don't recognize him and I don't think I like it entirely and even though I'd
1:07:52
like some of it.
1:07:53
I come to that conclusion and I've been on those drives and it's just like, yeah, was
1:07:57
I fun back then?
1:07:58
Probably.
1:07:59
But is that the man who I want to be remembered for and at what cost were you fun?
1:08:03
Yeah.
1:08:04
No, I don't.
1:08:05
I actually, if I go back and look at that time, I'd be embarrassed of myself, you know,
1:08:08
it sounds cliche.
1:08:09
But I mean, if you're at that point where those are the thoughts that you're having, I think
1:08:13
that tells me you're at a very good point.
1:08:15
You want to be in that position where you're detached and you're thinking through where
1:08:18
you're headed.
1:08:19
I think, you know, your points around having to make adjustments, you know, from a company
1:08:23
standpoint, it's not easy, but it's not salvation.
1:08:27
It is definitely a bread, you know, winning type of thing for people and their families,
1:08:31
but the whole company has families.
1:08:34
So I think you have to treat it with some sort of humility, but you also have to, you
1:08:39
know, take care of business.
1:08:41
But it's that's, I think that's different from trying to sit with somebody and talk
1:08:45
about salvation and all those types of things.
1:08:47
And with fruit before we go, with fruit, I don't want to look at the fruit of just everybody.
1:08:52
Like, I don't want to go in there and judge everybody for their fruit.
1:08:56
When I really want to judge fruit, I judge the fruit church and I'm judging the church
1:09:00
as a whole, not one person in the church because the church is made up of.
1:09:05
So if I see a church that, you know, it's evident that they don't have poor sexual immorality,
1:09:11
I'm probably not going to go and join that church.
1:09:13
I'm going to look at the fruit of that church and move on and probably not see much fruit
1:09:17
from there.
1:09:18
You know, and so I think that's one thing that we have to look at when we want to talk
1:09:21
about fruit.
1:09:22
It's like, it's not should be nitpicking your neighbor.
1:09:25
Fruit should be like, where do I want to go?
1:09:26
Where do I want to be discipled or do I want to grow?
1:09:28
And how can I be a part of a community that I know is going to be fruitful?
1:09:32
So Kyle's point of the two extremes, Christ talks about us being pruned and the vine
1:09:39
being pruned.
1:09:40
If you look at a rose bush to get more roses, you've got to cut perfectly good roses off
1:09:47
of that rose bush.
1:09:48
So you're looking at, I'm passionate and I get excited when they win.
1:09:52
It's a perfectly good looking rose.
1:09:55
But for whatever reason, that needs to be cut so there can be better roses.
1:09:59
So sometimes the pruning might to us look like, man, that's kind of a quality.
1:10:02
It was okay.
1:10:03
It's a pretty good quality.
1:10:04
But the Holy Spirit's like, you know, no, you know what, I want to prune that because
1:10:08
there's something better.
1:10:10
And you can't, you can't grow a rose bush without cutting and pruning perfectly good.
1:10:16
And sometimes beautiful looking roses.
1:10:20
So that rose bush can grow and look better.
1:10:22
Well, I think that's a good, a good way to kind of summarize that because I look at that.
1:10:26
Yeah.
1:10:27
Thanks.
1:10:28
We've set a record on length of episode and Matt, but I'm going to just steal your thunder
1:10:31
and do my own outro.
1:10:32
How about that?
1:10:33
But it's just like, you know, you do look at that.
1:10:34
I was just looking here recently, like the amount of time I used to spend watching baseball
1:10:38
and the amount of time I enjoyed that and the negative things that came from it.
1:10:42
Like now I have a life where I don't really have time to do that.
1:10:45
So I feel like I'm, you know, the FOMO of like missing out.
1:10:47
Oh, that would have been a nice game.
1:10:50
But again, and I'm not talking about like in my old age, I'm not going to, I'm not going
1:10:53
to worry about how I miss that Cardinals game, but it's like a week from now.
1:10:57
I'm not going to worry about the fact that I missed that game where there was an interesting
1:11:00
pitching matchup that I wanted to watch because I'm a nerd, like about baseball.
1:11:04
And so it's just like, yes, there are some better things because it's like, okay, I could
1:11:09
spend the next two and a half, three hours watching this game, or I can prep for a forging
1:11:13
table, or I can read to prep for another interview coming up, or I can spend some time in thought
1:11:18
and creativity of what is the next iteration of Undaunted Life look like so that we can
1:11:22
continue to equipment around the globe to be able to push back darkness.
1:11:25
But guys, that is a great discussion of second Timothy to and man, like I'm looking ahead
1:11:31
to three and four.
1:11:32
I'm not sure how we're going to keep those tight.
1:11:34
So we may be going into OT, everyone may need to call their wives from from here on out,
1:11:39
see if we can get a little bit of extra time, but we're going to leave the discussion there
1:11:41
for now, but come back next week where we're going to dig into second Timothy three.
1:11:45
So guys, make sure you read that so that you are prepared.
1:11:47
And as always, we're going to do a quick resilience boost before we let you go.
1:11:50
Our mission at Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:11:54
forges spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:11:56
So I've got a link to our donation page.
1:11:58
The only reason we have a forging table is because donors like you hop in on a monthly
1:12:02
basis and support us as we try to equipment around the globe to push back darkness.
1:12:06
Please hop on board and be a part of that with us.
1:12:08
Thank you guys for listening to this episode, wherever you're listening to this, please
1:12:11
subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five star review.
1:12:14
If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an email
1:12:17
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1:12:19
That's I N F O and on to not life, follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and
1:12:23
check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content
1:12:26
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1:12:27
Just go to www dot Undaunted.life.
1:12:31
Also we want to thank the band Holy name for allowing us to use their music for our content.
1:12:35
The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self titled debut album
1:12:39
on Face Down Records.
1:12:41
The links are in the description.
1:12:42
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:12:44
Remember keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:12:51
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.