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(Music)
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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:54
Let's get into it.
0:55
Welcome back to the Forging Table.
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The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
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forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
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At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
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by digging into God's Word.
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And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.
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No newbies today.
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A bunch of veterans.
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We got Ryan.
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We got Matt.
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We got Zach.
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Guys, we're digging into Second Timothy today.
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And Ryan, it was actually interesting.
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You and I were at church this morning and you had kind of like a, you know,
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a little bit of a sinus attack or something going on this week.
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We weren't feeling well.
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You're like, man, I was kind of thinking that you actually use the language.
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I was thinking about calling in sick to the Forging Table,
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which wouldn't be the first time that we've had, you know,
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something last minute kind of before one of us.
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It's just kind of the way it goes.
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But you were like noticeably visibly giddy about getting into Second Timothy.
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And I mean, I had that same feeling.
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Like, I'm always happy to see you guys and to come around the Forging Table.
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But like, you were jacked and excited.
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I was, I messed up.
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I went golfing on Thursday for work.
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It was always a bad idea because golf is the worst.
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And I guess I sucked up a whole bunch of like cottonwood or something.
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And my allergies flared up on Friday.
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My drive home from St. Louis, I could barely breathe.
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And then I told my wife though, I was like, I gotta, I gotta get better.
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Cause I was like, I can't bail on Second Timothy.
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I mean, like this book is fire.
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It is.
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And just how different it feels from First Timothy.
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Cause guys, if you go all the way to the way back machine,
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go back to very first part of this year, this is where we started the Forging Table.
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So and Ryan and Matt, you were, you guys were here as we started, went through that.
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And there's a lot here and just to kind of set it up and as a way of introduction,
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it's a pastoral epistle.
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Paul has several of these.
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And the biggest difference between this letter and the first one is this is another letter
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that he wrote to his people, Timothy, whom he has a tremendous amount of affection and love for.
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But Paul is awaiting his death in a Roman prison.
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This letter was likely written during his second Roman imprisonment.
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Somewhere between 64 and 67 AD.
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The theme overall is just perseverance for the gospel.
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So perseverance or resilience would be a huge theme of this entire letter.
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This is written.
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And I didn't really, I don't think I realized this until I was digging into it this time.
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This was written at like after 30 years of doing ministry.
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Because I guess in my head, maybe it's just cause I'm kind of stupid.
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Like I was like, when I read his, I feel like he's, you know,
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three or four years in a ministry every time I read something that Paul is writing.
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And I'm like, no, he was decades in at this point.
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And he's on the back end of his career and think about it.
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For all of us, we're relatively early in our careers.
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But imagine the sage wisdom and advice we get from people that have been doing it for
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three decades, regardless of the business you're in.
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He's been abandoned by almost everyone at this point.
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I talk about this letter quite a bit whenever I speak live because it's like,
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you think you got it bad?
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Like Roman prisons were not exactly known for their spa like qualities.
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You know, a couple thousand years ago, I actually went into a prison in Rome.
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That was supposedly the, the dungeon prison that Paul was in.
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And it was dank and it was dark and it was depressing.
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And, you know, and that was, they've kind of church it up now to where it's like
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more of like a touristy thing to see.
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But he was arrested as part of Nero's persecution of the Christians.
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And the thing about it is he knows he's going to die.
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Like he knows it.
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And some people are like, Oh, you know, you should have had faith that God may have rescued him,
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but it's like, it's almost like God told him, you've done it.
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You've done it.
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And it's just moved, moved on to comforting now.
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Like I'm going to comfort you as you're basically in your last days.
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But I just want to kind of tee you up for any of you guys.
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Cause this is, this is something where it's four chapters,
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but you can read this as one letter.
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It's like one tenth the size of the letter from Birmingham jail.
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If you're a Martin Luther King, junior guy.
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And so what, what thoughts you guys have just about really the overall setup of this,
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because it just feels just completely different than first Timothy did.
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I mean, I see it as like, I'm bringing it back to MacArthur as a shame for the gospel.
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I feel like we're in a time right now, we're knit with nearest persecution
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and everything that Timothy is becoming ashamed or is afraid to share the gospel,
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because he's afraid of the punishment.
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He's afraid of the persecution.
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And, and Paul talks a lot about just becoming being persecuted.
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Christ was persecuted.
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We're going to deal with persecution.
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And I think it's great for our day now.
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I mean, us as Christians, we're going to deal with a ton of persecution with our climate today.
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And it's just a sobering letter that how long ago was this like thousands of years ago,
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they're dealing with the same thing, but here they're dealing with death.
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We're dealing with, you know, I might lose my job.
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Yeah, I think I said something.
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I think this kind of similar to Peter talking about being prepared and the Greek word that's
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used there, I'm not going to try to say it, but it, a lot of the translations are girdier loins
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and be prepared to, like an action word, like be prepared because persecution is,
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is a promise to us as Christians, right?
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So like, it's not just maybe it's probably because you're at odds with the world.
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And so yeah, I think that that's, he's speaking right to that in this letter.
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But another thing, this is like different than his first Roman stay, right?
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So like basically he was on house arrest.
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Yeah.
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And here it's like, okay, stark difference.
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Right.
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You aren't, you're not just kind of chilling ankle bracelets.
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And yeah, you're at, he's a death's doorstep.
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And that's and he knows it too.
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Yeah, he knows it.
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You could just tell on his writing, he's like, it's coming up.
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It feels different than, you know, when John was in prison before he was beheaded,
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it seemed like, you know, the beheading caught everybody by surprise.
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And I would assume we don't know this, but even John, the Baptist was, I mean,
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I don't think he thought he was going to be losing his head that day.
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But like this, I mean, we don't know exactly how long Paul is basically
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marinating in this thought that, yeah, this is it.
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Like I'm not getting out of here.
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Well, it's really practical in a certain sense, because he's like,
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please bring me my coat.
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So I don't freeze to death in this prison.
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Yeah.
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You know, I think he definitely knew that things were coming.
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And then another thing that I thought was interesting,
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kind of with what you're saying is we don't know for sure.
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But from what I've heard and read about with Timothy, he essentially stayed in Ephesus
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and then was eventually kind of martyred in his own way or stoned.
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So he took what Paul said and followed his example
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all the way to his death according to what we, what we think is probable.
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The, the thing about this, this book as well, there are, well, I won't make it so narrow.
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If you read any part of the Bible, there's going to be something in it that challenges you
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that really makes you think, and you know, there's all kinds of
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churchy language you can put around it that we've all kind of grown up.
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But there was one thing in particular that I was challenged by, and it wasn't a particular verse,
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but right from the beginning of preparing the forging table for second Timothy,
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I wrote this in my notes.
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By the way, guys, Brian, I think he's got the same thing.
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Crossway has like a journal.
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I don't know if you guys are looking at this, but there's a journal.
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Like I don't get paid to say this, by the way, this is not an advertisement.
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But I'm the type of guy that I can't stand writing in a, in a Bible.
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Like, you know, Matt, you got writing in your Bible.
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Like some people like really crease their stuff up and they, they highlight stuff,
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even textbooks back in college.
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I couldn't do it.
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It was like, I had to like do something different.
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And so this, they have each individual book of the Bible, and there's the Scripture on the left,
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and then just open journaling pages on the right and in the back.
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And it's the entire Bible.
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There's a, you can get away cheaper than Amazon.
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What was that?
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What was the name of that website?
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We were looking at Christian books.
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Yeah.
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Christianbooks.com.
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You can buy the Old Testament as a set and the New Testament as a set.
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So anyway, there, commercial over again, non-paid commercial guys don't get the wrong idea.
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But I wrote in my journal, who is your Timothy?
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And I just sat there and thought about it because it's like, you know, we're all in our 30s.
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And we were not normally thinking about who's, who we're pouring into.
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We're always thinking about who's pouring into us.
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You know, you and I got our MBAs.
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You just finished your MBA.
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You're worried about, okay, who's, who's in business that can really pour into me at this time?
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You know, when you're growing businesses, whether you're in personalized sales
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or really kind of running operations for an organization, you're like, okay,
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who's done this?
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Maybe 10 years, 15 years ahead of me and can kind of help me miss some of the things.
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And we're always thinking about it that way.
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At least I'll speak for me.
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And then I just, just like, who's the younger man that you're pouring wisdom
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and encouragement into?
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Like for me, is there a kid out there?
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And there's been a few that have reached out, 18 years old,
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one star podcast, one of, you know, growing wisdom so that they can lead and,
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you know, prophesy into this, you know, degraded culture that we have.
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And I did not have a great answer to that, guys.
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Who is your Timothy?
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Because I basically don't have one.
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I could cheat and say, well, James and Elijah are my sons.
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But at the same time, it's like there's not somebody that's not blood tied to me,
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that I'm pouring into.
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And that was, that was kind of a gut punch a little bit.
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Yeah, for sure.
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That's a good question.
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I have to say that Matt Graspire is my Timothy.
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And y'all are sitting very close to one another, enough to where you can like,
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physically walk each other through this, this pupil, pupi, pupi.
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They were going to say, there was sarcasm in that.
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Sorry, buddy.
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Matt's older than you two.
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That's the other thing is he's your elder.
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How's Matt?
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Hey, 39.
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39.
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I was a Timothy for a guy who was like 26.
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Like he poured into me and I'm 38.
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Yeah, I think we can get hung up on age for sure.
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That's true.
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So it doesn't, doesn't have to be somebody that's, oh, typically it is.
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But well, Zach, I wonder like you and for you because you're the youngest Christian here,
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not by, you know, in terms of age of how long you've been on this earth,
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but in terms of identifying as a Christian, identifying, here we are.
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I'm using the stupid language of culture.
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It's rubbing off on me.
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I identify as a Christian, but like you're, you haven't been a Christian for very long.
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And I wonder what it looks like from you.
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Cause you're kind of looking at it from an outside perspective, like,
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because what we're describing guys is discipleship.
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Yeah.
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Like ultimately, would you agree with the use of that word?
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So like, who are we discipling?
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And I remember years ago, I was like, I want to find a spiritual mentor.
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I've never had a spiritual mentor.
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Every guy that said he was going to be one ended up not falling through.
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And I always had this like old gray haired, you know, gritty, you know,
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guy at the end of his life, like in mind.
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And I just ignored anyone that was like within 10 years of my age.
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Cause I was like, oh, they're not old enough.
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But it's like, that doesn't mean they don't have wisdom, but I'm just, I'm curious from your perspective.
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Yeah. I mean, I'll definitely go to start with the easy button, which is my son.
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No question.
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And that's, that's super intentional.
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So that's one you do daily.
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I think in a, there's definitely a professional capacity of that for me,
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you know, in terms of some of the leaders and stuff that I work around, you know,
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trying to emphasize certain things and certain ways.
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And I think more than anything over the last three or four years,
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it's been paying attention to those that have led me and trying to pass that along.
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So I think it's a good question.
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I don't think I have like a, this is my Timothy type example.
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But I think it's something that we all need to be paying attention to.
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Very similar, you know, I watched this deal with Alistair Begg and he talked about this.
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And so much of it was about passing this on to the next generation.
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So in a sense, I think it's definitely big to hand that down to somebody that's younger than you,
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sure that it's perpetuated for sure.
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And I think that's where we have to step up as men in our church.
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And we need to start volunteering and youth.
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I mean, that's the one thing that I did before, I wish I would have taken it seriously like I did,
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like I would do now.
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But I mean, we're in a season where we got young kids and sometimes it's hard to do,
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but really like my heart's desire is to pour into the youth.
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If we can pour into the youth and disciple them and then maybe we, you know,
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as we disciple ourselves through our ABFs.
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But yeah, I think that is adult Bible fellowship for everyone else on the planet that calls it.
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Some day, our community group, I mean, whatever church calls on that.
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Hey, you've got to send a message to me.
12:47
If anyone else calls our Sunday school, something that doesn't mean anything like
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ABF, adult Bible fellowship, just send it out.
12:54
Let us know all the other weird names.
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Yeah, we're just, it's like old hat to us.
12:57
As we dig into this letter, because there's more to be said just about kind of what tees up this
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letter, but Ryan, if you wouldn't mind read versus five, six and seven, because I think that's a good
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place for us to start.
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I am reminded of your sincere faith.
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Yeah, that's the beginning.
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What happened?
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Were you suffering?
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Yeah, no, five, six and seven, but you buffer there for a second.
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And Matt, over here, he couldn't hold himself.
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He got hold himself together.
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I'm trying to find it.
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I did my, oh my gosh, you highlighted everything.
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I didn't highlight it all.
13:30
No, it's not.
13:32
No, no, no, no.
13:33
I can do it.
13:33
You have been fired.
13:34
No, you need at least a 10 minute break from reading out loud.
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Do this or we get mad or you're going to, you're going to be resilient and get to it.
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Okay.
13:40
Five, six, and seven, five, hold it together.
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Six, seven, first Timothy, right?
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First, no, or second Timothy.
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And then after what?
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That's two strikes.
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Here we go.
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We've done this before.
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I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that's well, first in your grandmother, Lois,
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and your mother, unise.
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And now I am sure.
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Unice.
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Unice.
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Sorry, Joby.
13:59
All right.
13:59
Sorry, Joby.
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Keep going.
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I tried to church it up.
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Unice.
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Unice.
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I am sure dwells in you as well for this reason.
14:09
I'm reminded you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on my hands,
14:16
where God gave us a spirit, not a fear, but of power, love, and self control.
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So verse seven there, that's been printed on like teen Bibles, you know, all those types.
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I think that was my first Bible case.
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I had had that scripture on there, like we don't have a spirit of fear and all that.
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But what struck me is in the ESV, it's called, I remind you to fan into flame.
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So we don't know this to be specifically, it's not stated here in the text, but perhaps Timothy
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wasn't being as forceful as he should have been with his delivery of the gospel.
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And as I dug into some of my commentaries, I got that sense that he was maybe holding back a little
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bit.
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And so I first, I wanted to kind of start there.
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Did y'all kind of get that same sense because I've read this before and I didn't really get that,
15:03
but it seems like, you know, in his latter days, Paul's like, look, now's not the time to, you know,
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take it down or to calibrate.
15:11
It's like, we got to go.
15:12
Let's wrap it up.
15:13
Yeah, he knows he's not long for this world.
15:16
And so he doesn't have a lot of time.
15:18
And what's left unsaid is left unsaid.
15:21
And so I think he's, yeah, he's he's not satisfied with how Timothy is, is being faithful or
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is being unfaithful.
15:29
And so yeah, he's he knows I'm gone soon.
15:33
So I got to get this out.
15:34
And you see that with, with a lot of historical figures, when they approach their deathbed,
15:39
their, their filter kind of turns off.
15:42
And I think that's what you're seeing here with Paul is like, man, I got to say this.
15:46
So he's coming after it.
15:47
I think he's also just like giving him a charge, man.
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It's like, I think Timothy's afraid at this time.
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He's like, you know, who knows what's going to happen to me?
15:55
I mean, at this time, they're burning Christians for light down the roads.
15:59
Yeah.
15:59
And so he's probably like holding back a little bit because he's scared.
16:03
And so now Paul's saying like, hey, don't fear, don't fear the gospel.
16:07
And then if we go through here and he's like, don't, don't fear persecution because our
16:11
Lord was persecuted.
16:12
I think that's really hard for us to wrap our heads around as American Christians because
16:16
persecution to us is like, well, that guy disagreed with me or like, we don't have that same level
16:25
where they do in, you know, let's say China or, you know, where it's illegal to have a Bible.
16:30
And we don't experience that.
16:31
So I think I think it can be hard for us to grasp.
16:34
Why would he be afraid?
16:35
Just talking about Jesus.
16:37
That's easy, right?
16:38
Do we think that's why?
16:40
Well, I mean, of all the obvious questions that have answers, I'm going to throw this out there.
16:45
Do we think that's why the church is suffering in the West because it is so convenient.
16:49
We all have a stack of Bibles.
16:51
We don't have a portion of the Bible that we have to keep hidden in our house.
16:55
You know, less we get the death penalty or something like that.
16:57
I feel like and also how many of us have had to pray give us this day or daily bread in this
17:03
country.
17:03
There are hungry people in America, but per capita, it's nothing like the rest of the world because
17:08
we are the richest country currently in existence.
17:11
And so I feel like it's at the same time.
17:14
It's like you want to have that further dependence on the Bible and on God.
17:18
But at the same time, most people don't want to choose.
17:20
They don't opt for suffering and most people don't live a life like that.
17:24
Like we want things to be easy.
17:25
We want it to be convenient.
17:27
I think here in the West, what we're going to suffer, we're going to suffer in truth.
17:29
And that's where we're going to suffer.
17:32
We're going to hold to the truth and what biblical truth is.
17:34
And the way that our climate is going nowadays, we are going to suffer through persecution that way.
17:39
Whether it's loss of jobs, loss of friends, however we want to look at it,
17:44
it's not going to be give us this day or daily bread.
17:46
It could be, could be give us this day or daily bread when we lose our job
17:49
because we stick to truth.
17:51
So it's time will only tell, but as you read this book and you read this letter to Timothy,
17:58
I mean, it's just showing what happens when she becomes ashamed of the gospel.
18:02
I think honestly, this is definitely one for me that I've been grappling with quite a bit.
18:06
I mean, first of all, I think it's great that he points towards somebody besides himself.
18:10
It's very personal to Timothy as grandmother and his mom as examples.
18:13
I think you can kind of calibrate your current perceptions against.
18:17
And I've got like my grandmother, for instance, was probably the number one reasons that
18:21
I came to Christ eventually because she was that rock solid example in my life.
18:25
No question. So that really jumped out to me.
18:27
But to reconcile not having fear this, this verse that's been printed on everything
18:33
with the fact that you're going to go into all of these very difficult circumstances that
18:39
are kind of unknown. I mean, honestly, that's, that's one of the more difficult things that I've
18:42
been grappling with recently is trying to figure out, you know, how to contend with both of those
18:47
things at the same time. And as I said, I mean, Timothy eventually went into kind of the
18:51
ultimate sacrifice, I think, for these purposes. So in your life today, I think it's easy to think,
18:56
you know, what could be happening if I really lean into this? But it's saying, don't be fearful.
19:01
That's, that's not what we are.
19:02
I think it's kind of funny when you look at this verse, like, how do you remember it as a kid?
19:06
I mean, I remember saying this verse, like, you know, hey, if you're scared, you say,
19:09
God hasn't given me a spirit of fear, but a powerless sound mind. Like, that's what it was.
19:13
That's like, that's how the Bible verses use. But then you look at it in this context.
19:17
Well, I think, I think he's kind of harkening to, is that a word?
19:21
Yeah. Sorry, Joe.
19:23
The whole, no, it's totally a word. That's not a sorry, Joby. We only have one so far.
19:27
The Holy Spirit. And you know, you look at, you look at, like, what does the Holy Spirit mean?
19:31
Like, it's, it's what, I think it's called a paraclete. And in Old Testament times, like,
19:39
a paraclete was, in some cases, a family attorney, someone who would stand with you
19:44
in an hour of need, like someone that would stand beside you and fight on your behalf and with you
19:48
for something that you needed. And so if you like, I think, I think sometimes we think Holy Spirit is
19:56
this like kind of woo woo, kind of can't really see. And we forget that the Holy Spirit is the third
20:01
person of the Trinity. And Jesus literally said, I'm going to send, send the Holy Spirit to be with
20:06
you and comforter and someone who will stand beside you. And I think that, that's a very intentional
20:13
and powerful use of that language. Like, don't be afraid. You have the Holy Spirit in you fighting
20:20
with you on your behalf as you go through life. So as you were describing that, Matt, like I was
20:25
reminded of learning about kinsmen, redeemers from like the Old Testament, but I don't necessarily
20:30
want to draw that core layer here. But with a paraclete, the funny thing about that is I know
20:34
we mentioned Joby on this podcast quite a bit, but he's taught me that word and that expression
20:39
because he said, you know, back in Bible school or Divinity School or whatever, whenever you go
20:44
through seminary, that he had to use kind of some mnemonic devices to remember these words and their
20:49
meanings. And he's like, okay, paraclete, like imagine playing football, like in flip flops,
20:53
it's like a paraclete kind of keeps you grounded. But it allows you to move, allows you to cut,
20:58
allows you to speed up and slow down and do all those different things, because you're being
21:02
guided. I mean, we've seen this before, guys, if you watch any, especially national championship
21:07
games or BCS Bulls or January's, first Bulls or something like that, New Year's Bulls. These
21:13
are like, it's new turf typically. And it's almost always without fail. At some point in the first
21:18
quarter, the announcers are talking about how the staff on the sideline is frantically changing
21:23
out cleats because, you know, they're not long enough, they're not the right shape and all that.
21:27
And you see these world class athletes slipping aside and falling around, it's like, it does not
21:32
matter how fast you can cut if your cleats aren't any good, or if your cleats don't match the turf,
21:38
you're trying to do that. I don't have the right equipment. And also wear cleats on the basketball
21:41
court and see how easily you can cut and jump and all that. And so now that that's a great point,
21:46
Matt. I would also say, Zach, to your point, okay, so the word fear here, as I was digging in,
21:52
what I always assumed it was is so you were so fearful that you never got in the fight,
21:58
right? Because I've talked about before, I never got in fights growing up because I was
22:02
terrified of getting hurt in a fight. Like, and, you know, until I started doing some, you know,
22:07
simulated fighting with Jiu Jitsu and kickboxing and stuff like that. And it's like, oh, I'm not
22:10
made of glass. You know, I'm glad I didn't get in a bunch of fist fights as a kid, but, you know,
22:14
it's it's okay. You get punched in the face and you live. But fear here, the word that is used is
22:20
more like one who flees from battle, which again, I might be doing this incorrectly. But it's that
22:27
they were in the fight. And then things got really hot. And then they took off. I think that's why
22:33
Paul kind of ends this letter. If I fought the good fight, I stayed the course. And that's why he's
22:39
trying to tilt him with, he's trying to provide encouragement in this and rather than admonishment.
22:44
So he's like, Hey, Timothy's in the thick of the fight and the fight's deadly. You know, people
22:49
are dying. And he wants them to keep going and keep going with the truth with the real gospel.
22:53
Well, he uses flee a lot of again in this letter. So there's a time to flee. There are things to
22:58
flee from. But this is not one of those things to flee from, like you should be facing forward.
23:04
And back to the, the fanning the flames, like, what a great analogy. If you're starting, if you're
23:09
trying to start a fire and it's cold, you want to keep the cold out. So you have to fan the flame
23:15
to become bigger. And so that the cold becomes less. And so if you're not fanning that flame,
23:24
you're going to get real cold real fast. And so I kind of look at that. Like Steve Lawson says,
23:28
we're supposed to be a ship in the water, but a ship in the ocean, but not take on any water.
23:35
And so if you're not fanning the flame and that flame is going to go out, that cold or the world,
23:40
if you want to call is going to come in, and that's going to cause some real problems.
23:44
Because we're at odds with the world. Yeah, today in church, something kind of sticks out to me as
23:49
we're having this discussion. He talked about Job. He was actually going through James, but Job
23:53
came up and he referenced a lot of people talk about the patience of Job. But he said, really,
23:57
when you read it, he wasn't that patient. He was just persistent. You know, the flame did not go
24:02
completely out. He had to be in the fight. He had to kind of tussle with it and and all that,
24:07
but it didn't go out. And he talked about I was trying to remember how patience was used like.
24:12
I think it was James five, but patience, the word in English was used like four times within a few
24:16
verses. But it's not all the same in the Greek. And one of those patients is was endurance. So
24:22
enduring, excuse me, and going through, which again, just every time I heard that, I was like,
24:29
Oh, resilience, resilience, ability to bounce back and to continue to push through. And I guess
24:35
it's kind of one of those things as well as there's almost like an unspoken admonition here to be wary
24:39
of self too much self confidence to where it's like, that's that's the problem. You know, whenever I
24:45
talk through resilience is I don't want people to hear. Western American cockiness. I got this.
24:51
I'm going to pull myself up by my bootstraps, because to a degree, there is something to that.
24:56
God cannot work out for you. God cannot, you know, within reason, he's not going to
25:01
categorize your family for you. He's not going to read to them at bedtime. Like,
25:04
there's things that you have to be disciplined enough to do. But at the same time, like something
25:08
like this, that was that was why I like whenever I spoke at that prison, that was such a big
25:13
thing for me, because for the first time that I spoke, that actually this actually just hit me
25:17
just now as I was saying that that was probably the first time I spoke live, where I was like,
25:22
this one's not on me. I did so many presentations in college. I did so many things for work and
25:29
so many everything else. And it's like, I always put a ton of pressure on myself. And gosh, if we
25:33
don't make this sell or if we don't get people to sign up, like it's on me or, you know, if we don't
25:37
get investors, whatever, this was that first time where it's like, I know what I'm going to say
25:42
ish. I have an idea of where this is going to go. Holy Spirit, get after it. Like, I'm just going
25:48
to open my mouth and we're just going to figure it out. And like, that that's coming through here
25:52
as well to where it's like, dude, it's not just you. Yeah. Like, I think you were the first person
25:56
say this to me, Matt years ago, was like, yeah, God can move mountains, but he expects you to bring
25:59
a shovel. And that's that's a big deal here. Because most of us just, I feel like we've
26:04
asked late between I'm just going to let go and let God, which is really, really stupid.
26:07
Or I'm going to do everything and just hope God blesses it, which is like in some ways equally
26:11
stupid. Yeah, that's a difficult dichotomy. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I mean,
26:14
how many times in your life can you think where you had those circumstances where
26:18
there's only so much you could do and you kind of had to give it, you know, give it over to the
26:21
spirit to help you out, but you still had to walk into it and deal with it, you know, one way or
26:25
another. I'm reminded of Spurgeon saying every time he got up, each step, he would say, you know,
26:30
Holy Spirit be with me, Holy Spirit, and then he would preach. And I think, you know, I can think
26:35
of at least four or five circumstances where that's been the case. And, you know, one way or another,
26:39
it's okay. But putting yourself out there can be difficult, which leads me down to another rabbit
26:44
hole we don't have to get into right now, which is how can you discern in some way where you're
26:51
being led? Do you believe that God directs you through some sort of, you know, voice or anything
26:58
like that? So if you're really in a position in life or you're trying to determine your next steps,
27:01
I know you've shared some things recently. How do you read the word and then discern kind of this
27:07
path you're supposed to go down? I've heard, for instance, Sean McDowell talked a couple of days
27:10
ago in one of his shorts and you just said, you know, God can certainly speak to you, you know,
27:15
still a small voice, all those things. But sometimes God just needs you to, you know, move down the
27:20
path and he's going to help, you know, guide your character development as a result of the
27:25
decisions that you make. So for those that are looking at a big decision or different things out
27:29
there that are trying to think, how can I read and pray? And then God told me I should do this.
27:34
I'm always fearful of assigning God some message that was never meant to be assigned.
27:39
I mean, where do you guys sit on that? I have some thoughts. I mean, I sit on it is, I mean,
27:46
I've gone through some of this stuff in my life. My wife and I moved to Texas like two years ago.
27:52
And you could say it was a God thing because the doors were open. A lot of doors opened for my job
27:58
and everything for us to move there. But our house never sold. Took a while for our house to sell.
28:03
And I took that job hoping to make more money. And that's, I don't think that was God's plan for me,
28:09
but I did it anyways. But he used it. He used it in the fact that I found a church that was
28:15
an expository church. It was a church that discipled me into the word that grew me as a Christian. I
28:21
made, I probably made the same money I made the year before. It may be even less, but I grew
28:27
spiritually. So I don't think it really mattered. Like we can pray and we can talk to God and we can
28:32
read his word and see where to go with that. But ultimately, we're going to make a decision and
28:35
God's going to do that through his sovereignty. Yeah, I think we can paralyze ourselves thinking,
28:40
like, Oh, I have to hear from God or I have to get a sign or I have to get something. And I think a
28:45
lot of times it's just do it. Like you like do it, do something. And the let go, let God, people,
28:52
I think, I can't imagine that that is a very good way to live. Like, okay, I'm just going to sit
28:58
and wait and God's going to do it. That's I mean, if you haven't watched or listened to our talk on
29:04
Nehemiah, like, that is clearly not the case. God can do whatever he wants. Like he calls us to be
29:10
a part of the story. And so we're going to have to put action in there. So we can't just, okay,
29:15
I'll wait, let God do do something. Well, I remember hearing years ago, I said it as a joke, but I was
29:22
trying to talk about how certain people pray and how they hear from God. And I was talking to this
29:28
guy and I was like, I use that as an example. I was like, imagine if your wife was sitting there
29:31
in the driveway in her car wondering, should I go to Taco Bell today for lunch or should I go to
29:37
Arby's? And I was saying it to be funny. And he goes, no, that's that's exactly how my wife gets
29:41
through every single day. And I was like, floor, I was like, wait, what? He's like, yeah, I mean,
29:47
she will not go anywhere, go on a walk drive to this store as opposed to that store without being
29:53
like in constant communication with God. And immediately, I was like, Oh my gosh, I just eat
29:58
where I feel like, am I going to hell? Like, is this like, it was just this thing like, Oh, is she
30:02
doing it right? And I was, I'm not saying that now to be funny. But I was just like, I didn't have
30:07
that type of relationship. But the way she felt about it was, what if she felt like tacos that
30:13
day? But there was somebody that at Arby's that needed ministry. And she didn't, she wanted to be
30:18
sensitive to the call and not like, Hey, this is where I'm going, God, bless me on the way. And you
30:23
know, let me know if there's anything I do for you. It was like, no, no, I want to be ahead of the
30:28
game a little bit. And so I was asked to your question. I don't know, like, I don't know what
30:32
the best way I would assume there's not a one size fits all way of doing that. But even Matt,
30:37
you bring up Nehemiah. And for Ryan, you and I've talked about this. But I'm Nehemiah was so
30:43
prayerful throughout the entire time. I doubt he was doing that with every decision he had to make
30:49
as governor and as, as the leader of this area. But he knew kind of the, the column that he needed
30:56
to stay in to where here's 360 degree directions, you can go, here's like 10 degrees worth of direction.
31:04
And so as long as you kind of stay in between those lines, you're going to end up, you know,
31:08
pretty good, you're going to be over the target at some point. Whereas if you're just
31:12
throwing the compass out the window and just flying, it's like, it's probably going to be a problem.
31:16
I know, I know we need to get back to this too. But like to your point, that's kind of where I
31:19
ultimately went with that was the Nehemiah discussion, which is you prayed and you got back to work.
31:25
Yeah. Right. God's glory is going to come out no matter what. Yeah. Amen.
31:28
I mean, God's God's going to be glorified. So whether you screw up or you don't, you know,
31:32
or you good things happen, glory is going to be on him. I'm reminded of a story that my dad used to
31:37
tell us. And this is kind of to what you're talking about, let go and let God wear a guy.
31:42
He's there's a flood coming and he cries out to God, save me. And then, you know, truck drives by
31:48
and he goes, no, no, no, God's going to save me. And then, you know, a boat that water rises,
31:53
houses under water, boat boat comes by. Hey, we got some room on the boat. He's like, no,
31:57
God's going to save me. And then he's up on the top of his house, about to be covered.
32:01
Helicopter comes by, no, God's going to save me. Then he dies. He gets to heaven. He said, God,
32:06
I thought you're going to save me. He's like, I sent a truck and I sent a boat. Then I sent a
32:10
helicopter. And it's like, what's it? Where you want to get like, what, like, what else did you
32:14
want? And I think we get, we can get, not we can't, we do, but we can get so caught up in this,
32:19
like, miraculous, like, over the top thing that God's going to send our way when it's a truck,
32:26
get in the truck. Well, here's, here's another thing. As you say that, again, we've watched
32:32
too many movies and television shows where we think everything has to be the dramatic story.
32:36
So two things that that's done for me. Number one, I don't think my witness is cool enough.
32:40
Because I know guys that used to be like gangbangers, and that are not that on this show,
32:45
right? I used to know guys that, you know, we're, you know, atheistic borderline satanic,
32:50
you know, speck offs guys, killing people and enjoying it. And then God gets ahold of them.
32:55
And so it's like, well, I don't have their story. So my story isn't anything special. And so we
33:00
diminished ourselves. But another thing I thought about is, and here we're completely gone from
33:04
the weeds now. But so as everyone knows, and you're kind of listening to this in the future,
33:09
I've had a lot of vocal core problems. I'm in the process of, you know, recovering from a second
33:13
vocal cord surgery, trying to rebuild my voice, doing everything I can. Someone threw this out
33:18
there to me, and I wanted to be offended by it. But it was potentially true. And he said,
33:24
what if you've already said all the things that God needed you to say? He's like, you got close to
33:30
500 episodes out there. You've spoken live quite a bit. You've you've taught some groups. You've
33:35
taught adult Bible fellowships. You've done your thing. What makes you think you that the next 30
33:42
years of your career is going to be behind a microphone. And I, but again, we think in terms of
33:48
career track, right? Some people at the stable have some business things coming up to where it's
33:53
going to be, Oh, I'm going this way. Maybe need to go this way, right? Completely different field.
33:57
This is what I thought for myself. I got my MBA with oil and gas in mind, and I'm working oil and
34:03
gas. And so it's like, that's something to reckon with here to where it's like, God's going to do
34:09
what he wants. God's going to, even if we make the wrong decision, he's going to point us in the
34:13
right direction. And we get to choose whether or not we go down that direction or not, but he's
34:17
going to at least guide us that way. But then does that mean, like with me in the show is like,
34:23
I was thinking like, Oh, this is what I'm going to do until they put me in a pine box. But it's like,
34:27
what is that's it? Like, what if what if I've kind of like been completely, you know,
34:32
wrung out for his purpose? What if that's already been met? So it's kind of a, you know, for me,
34:36
it's Macabre thing. Well, you're post surgery on your talking right now. Yeah, I'm currently
34:42
post surgery and talking. But yeah, it's it's like, I can't project my voice. I can't talk with that,
34:47
that energy and that, you know, force that I'm used to. But does that make sense? Yeah,
34:51
that makes sense. But I think the call is just to keep going and just keep, keep, keep at it,
34:58
keep pursuing holiness, keep pursuing Christ, because that's what matters. And like,
35:04
Paul says here, therefore, in some translations, translate that to be for this reason. Like,
35:11
he's talking about because God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and love and
35:18
self control for this reason, keep going. And it's not, it's not a keep going specifically here.
35:24
Now we'll get into specifics, but it is a keep going, just keep going. Got like, if you're still
35:30
alive, God is using you for some purpose. Can he use our shame as well? Or here, actually,
35:39
Matt, if you can read, it's a decent size chunk, but I think you're up to the task.
35:44
If you'll read eight through 14, I mean, this is really kind of the meat of this whole section,
35:48
but there's kind of this overwhelming discussion of shame and how it could affect us.
35:53
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me, his prisoner,
36:00
but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a
36:05
holy calling, not because of our works, but because of his own purpose and grace,
36:09
which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been given, has been
36:15
manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life
36:21
and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and
36:26
teacher, which is why I suffer as I do, but I am not ashamed for I know whom I, whom I have
36:32
believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that day what has been entrusted to me,
36:38
follow the pattern of sound words that you have heard from me in the faith and love that are in
36:44
Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you.
36:48
There is so much there, and I know you guys did your homework, so whatever you want to break down
36:54
inside that section, the first thing that I want to kind of go into that section is you talked about
36:58
do not be ashamed. So he starts out there for do not be ashamed of verse eight,
37:03
then we get to verse 12, but I am not ashamed for I know who I have believed,
37:07
because the reality is, is if you are ashamed of the message of the gospel,
37:11
you are ashamed of the source of the gospel, Christ or the triune God in general.
37:16
It reminds me of that conversation. Yeah, with the Eugenia Constantineo.
37:20
Eugenia Constantineo, yeah. She let me call her Jeanie. Yeah.
37:28
You can't call her Jeanie. I can't call her. You call her Mrs. Eugenia Constantineo.
37:34
I want to call her Dr. Dr. Dr. I was the caller doctor.
37:37
Sorry. She was great. By the way, I really enjoyed that conversation you guys had.
37:40
When she talked about the the death of Christ and talking about being ashamed like Christ died
37:46
as like a robber, like he was scorched and he was crucified. And so that brought a lot of shame on
37:51
people, you know, in that time. And so if you think about it, like, hey, we're going to talk
37:56
about this guy being our resurrected savior, and you go into somebody who's like, didn't that guy
38:00
get crucified? You know, like there was there's probably some sort of shame in and how Christ was
38:06
crucified. Oh, that's the thing about that book, which Zach here to my eyes is the reason why any
38:09
of us have read that book since he's the one that found it. But the crucifixion of the king of glory
38:14
by Dr. Eugenia Constantineo, she like, it never occurred to me that scourging and the one dignity
38:23
the Romans gave to Jesus is they didn't crucify him naked because that was against Jewish custom.
38:29
And you know, the boards escaping me, but they didn't want, you know, public displays of any
38:33
profane type thing. And so basically you couldn't show, you know, your private sexual parts in public.
38:39
But that was the only dignity they did to him. And it was because they had to give him the maximum
38:44
level of shameful death possible in addition to pain, which she goes into stark detail about
38:50
every last bit of pain from the what the crown of thorns would have done to the nerve endings
38:56
that were around the forehead to the scourging and all kinds of different things. But yeah,
39:01
I mean, that that's a big deal. Look at that, the shame of Christ. And then you're the guy that
39:04
you're listening to and talking to is in Roman prison. So that's like me being like, yeah, this
39:09
guy who I'm really getting all my stuff from is a is in a county, you know. And so I think that's
39:15
one thing that we had to drive from this is like, when you got to know the context of what's going
39:19
on at this time of why he's in prison, we have to know the context of Christ. But at this time,
39:24
these people would look upon that a shame. And so, you know, there has to be some sort of
39:29
hutzpah in your in your in your talk of the gospel. There is there is on repeat a in throughout the
39:36
the Bible, a theme of perseverance, and not going back to what is comfortable or what
39:45
seems comfortable or not giving into what the world says you should do. And you know, even in
39:51
in Isaiah, the Israelites are wanting to go back, they're wanting to to strike up a a partnership
39:59
with Egypt. And God is for he has forbidden that in the mosaic law. He has literally said,
40:06
do not go back to Egypt. I called you out of Egypt. And they're still going, well, we want to go back.
40:12
And it's it's not is not Egypt necessarily Egypt happened to be the comfort. And even as they're,
40:20
you know, as they're coming out in the desert, they're like, well, we don't have any food. We'd
40:23
rather go back to Egypt, even though we were slaves, at least we got to eat. And so there's this call
40:29
to persevere. And it's through the entire Bible, like the world says do this. And there's lots of
40:36
things that look tempting, but persevere, because what is on the other side is way more valuable,
40:44
is way better than anything that you can look at in the world. And I mean, even in Second Timothy,
40:53
there's that call persevere. One thing I would say is, I know we have a tendency to read this from
41:00
our own perspective, but given that this is a pastoral letter, you know, recently, I've heard
41:04
about some different pastors that we know that have gone on sabbatical, which reminds me of some
41:09
conversations that you should appreciate, you know, the pastors that you have and the reasons
41:13
they go on sabbatical and all the different weight and baggage that they carry on the side,
41:17
regardless of if they're the one in the pulpit preaching to you or not. So can certainly appreciate
41:21
what he's trying to to pass along. I'm going to read one thing here. Just one note. This is from
41:26
Weersby. It's for verse one through nine. It says, we are part of a great eternal plan that God
41:31
determined before time began. God knows that the end from the beginning, he has purposes for his
41:39
people to accomplish for his glory. Suffering is a part of his plan. Jesus Christ suffered in the
41:44
will of God here on earth. And all those who trust in him will also suffer. It is his purposes that
41:50
we are to fulfill. And if these purposes include suffering, then we can accept it by faith and
41:55
know that God's will is best. This is not fatalism. It is confidence in the wise plan of our gracious
42:01
heavenly Father. So I think that kind of highlights first for me, it was kind of going to the fact
42:06
that these pastors are going to be right in the middle of that, you know, you could imagine what
42:09
kind of emails that they're getting and deals that they're having to work through, but then
42:13
how we deal with it, you know, it's laying out what you may have to go through. And then it's calling
42:17
you to not be fearful and walk through it. And also, there's an admonition here as well.
42:22
So in verse 12, the word the six out to me is guard guard until that day. Excuse me,
42:29
what has been entrusted to me? So guard being you've been given sound doctrine.
42:35
You've been given great wisdom and teaching. You've been given a mentor. You've been you've got
42:44
the Holy Spirit. And you need to guard this stuff. And we'll get into later. I think it's a chapter
42:50
three of second Timothy, where we get to people that get to this point where they just want to
42:54
have their ears tickled. And there's no guarding of sound doctrine in a church that likes to tickle
42:59
ears and to make people feel good and to make them feel as if yes, sin and death and crucifixion.
43:05
Yeah, and all that. But God's for you. And he just he wants this for you. And he wants you to be your
43:12
best self and like that type of, you know, moral therapeutic deazons type of Oh, no, no. Yeah. If
43:18
I think if you dig in there, it's not that's not going to be the story that you get from the Bible.
43:21
I think it's pretty one thing that really stood out to me was 13. Follow the pattern of the sound
43:27
words that you have heard from me in faith and in love that are in Christ Jesus. How many times
43:32
we walk into those churches that are trying to cause division based upon word because they're
43:37
saying, Oh, hey, well, this in Greek means this differently or this means this, you know, and it's
43:42
just like they're trying to cause division that way. It's like follow the pattern people. Like this
43:47
word may look like anyone in Greek, but why does he bring up husbands? Why does he bring up wives,
43:52
you know, and it's nobody. He says it right there in his word. And we'll go into that in two, too,
43:57
about like what are stupid arguments? You know, like these people come in and they just bring
44:02
stupid arguments. But I think the real thing that I want to take away from this is I'm reminded
44:06
of a Spurgeon quote. I'm not responsible for the souls that are saved, but I'm responsible for the
44:10
gospel in the way that it's preached. And that's what it comes down to. We're not responsible for
44:15
the souls that are saved. We're responsible for the gospel that we preach. And if we preach it correctly
44:20
and we preach it right. And that's what he's instilling in Timothy right now. You know it. I know
44:25
it. You know what's true. I know what's true. Do it right. And don't be afraid.
44:28
When I think what you're bringing up, Ryan, and this is not going to be the last time we mentioned
44:34
this in our discussion on 2nd Timothy, a lot of people are using the but did God actually say?
44:39
I mean, is that the first lie that's recorded in Scripture? I, you know, whenever Satan in the
44:46
garden did God actually say to not eat of the fruit of the tree or Jesus never said that.
44:51
Right. And, you know, that reminds me of Carl Linson on the view, you know, Jesus never talked
44:56
about homosexuality directly. So we're not going to do it from the pulpit. It's like weird because
45:01
he did. Talk about marriage. Yeah, because in Matthew 19, ancient, you know, Galilean Aramaic or
45:07
whatever, he was using words and it was recorded in the Greek. Pornea, sexual morality included in
45:13
that would have been homosexuality. It would have been easily understood by everybody in the first
45:17
century. But then you got the other people that like to mince words. They'll say Pornea means
45:21
temple sexuality, having sex with the temple. But even if you extrapolate that out and let's just
45:27
for the sake of argument, say that that's true. And he never, he never actually said anything about
45:32
that. Like he kind of encompasses all of that when he says, if you love me, you will keep my
45:38
commandments. What commandments was he talking about? His commandments all through the Old
45:43
Testament. So like his moral law, he did, he did speak, even if he never said a word about it,
45:48
because there's some things that he doesn't specifically talk about. But he does say,
45:52
if you love me, you will keep my commandments. And that, like, that's a pretty specific call.
45:57
Yeah, because he wasn't referring to, oh, the stuff that Matthew's written down up to this point.
46:02
In my public ministry, he was obviously talking about the law that he came to fulfill.
46:06
And guys, there really is a whole lot more to 2 Timothy 1. But 2 Timothy 2, there's so much there.
46:15
And again, we read this like modern Christians that have the Bible that's broken up. This is
46:20
a letter, right? It's been broken up in chapter and verse to make it easier for us. But there
46:25
really is a lot that I want to discuss in the second one. So guys, we're going to give you a
46:29
little bit of a reprieve this week. But make sure you come back next week, where we will dig into
46:34
2 Timothy 2. And there really is a lot to discuss there. So make sure you guys read that so that
46:39
you are prepared for next week. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
46:44
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