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(Music)
0:48
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:53
Let's get into it.
0:54
Our guys welcome back to the Forging Table.
0:56
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping men to push back
0:58
darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
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At the Forging Table, you'll see a group of regular guys forging spiritual resilience
1:06
by digging into God's Word.
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And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.
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That's Ryan, that's Derek, that's Eric.
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Guys, we went over 1 Timothy 1 last week.
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Now we're getting into 1 Timothy 2.
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And I told you guys that we were going to leave a little needle in the bone last week
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because we're probably going to go maybe a little bit long this week
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or we'll kind of see how it goes with everything.
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But to take the ending of 1 Timothy, specifically in verse 18,
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we're talked about wage the good warfare according to ESV.
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Some versions might say, some translations might say,
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fighting the good fight or something like that.
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And take that into the very, very beginning of the second chapter.
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So I'm going to read the first couple of verses here for 1 Timothy 2.
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First of all, then I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings
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be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions,
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that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
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So that's what I want to get into.
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And I teased this a little bit last week.
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But one of the commentaries I have is from an absolute giant of the faith.
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And that's John MacArthur.
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And he has been, gosh, he's been a pastor for 60 years or something like that.
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So I read this part right here because that immediately caught my eye.
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You know, when you say lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
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What does that mean?
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And so I'm going to his commentary here.
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And this is when he's talking about the part, a quiet and peaceable life.
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Quiet refers to the absence of external disturbances.
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Peaceable refers to the absence of internal ones.
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While it remains uncompromising in its commitment to the truth,
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the church is not to agitate or disrupt the national life.
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When it manifests love and goodness to all and praise passionately for the lost,
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including rulers, the church may experience a certain amount of religious freedom.
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Persecution should only be the result of a of righteous living, not civil disobedience.
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Now this commentary was written.
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I'm not sure, but it wasn't written here in the last few years.
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It wasn't written in the era of the C word where a lot of people are trying to reject
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getting the jab.
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I'm actually trying to figure out whenever this was published.
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So this was copyrighted 2005.
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So this is, you know, close to 20 years ago.
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So I vehemently disagree with this view, at least in how it was expressed in these few sentences
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here, because some people will take this and some people have taken this.
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We talked about Andy Stanley last week.
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He has certainly taken this.
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And a lot of people in the Trump era and the post Trump era have taken this to mean in the
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the C word era and all those different things to be like, look, Christians aren't supposed
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to be disputacious.
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We're supposed to lead this, this quiet life.
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We're supposed to be peaceful and dignified.
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And what that means is if the government says your church is not essential, we say,
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okay, because we're supposed to respect our magistrates.
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They're going to tell us, hey, you, you don't all, you can't have your Christian convictions
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as a part of your business, you have to make this cake for this gay wedding.
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Or hey, yeah, you know, I understand that you don't think we should bring in a drag queen to talk
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to read a story to the kids at your school, that that's just kind of what's going to happen.
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And don't bring your morality into here.
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Like, I don't subscribe to that morality, any of those types of things.
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I think this expands out into a lot of different areas.
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But I think, especially with what Undaunted Life is here for equipping men to be able to
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push back darkness, you could read this scripture and be like, well, I guess we're just supposed
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to be pacifists on everything.
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I guess on every important issue, we are literally just supposed to take it.
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You know, bend over, grab our, grab our ankles and take it, no matter what comes at us because
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we're supposed to be peaceful, we're supposed to be dignified in every way.
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And I reject that entirely.
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And I'm going to go back to John MacArthur's words here where he talks about while in,
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while it remains uncompromising in its commitment to truth, the church is not to agitate or disrupt
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the natural life.
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So if someone says that whenever you end a pregnancy, that that's all you're doing,
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no, I'm sorry.
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If we're going to be committed to truth, we have to push back against that darkness
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directly and to agitate as we do that.
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Now we're supposed to do that and correct people in love and all that's fine and well,
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but we don't get anywhere by saying, you know what, to each their own.
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Yeah, it may be life.
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It may not be life.
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So whenever people are talking about doing this peacefully, no, I would not saying that
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we should go and kill people that are killing babies.
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I'm not saying anything's like that.
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But this idea that we're just supposed to sit back and allow all these dark,
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depraved and sinful things to happen right under our noses.
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And the church is not going to prophesy into the community and say, no,
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we're not going to do that.
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And this is why I think it is absolutely reprehensible.
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And people are buying it like an Andy Stanley like any of these other people.
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They're buying it hook, line and sinker and they're basing their brand new theology around it.
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I don't think John MacArthur's buying it that way though.
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You may have wrote those words, but he did not take the sanctions.
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His actions with Governor Newsom clearly point against that, right?
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Yeah.
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And he's very outspoken in regards to sanctity of life and everything.
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I think what it really comes down to is it comes down like, let's talk about the jab.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Like if I have a church and I've got some people that want to get the jab
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and I have some people that don't want to get the jab,
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I'm not going to sit there and say, all you people who don't get the jab
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are bad people or all you people who get the jab.
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You're just, you're just, what do you want to call sheep?
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You know what I'm saying?
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Like that's where your Christian freedom lies.
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You want to go get the jab, go get the jab.
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I'm going to love you as a Christian no matter what.
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You know what I'm saying?
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But you have these pastors out there that want to make you feel bad.
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Like you don't care about life because you didn't go get the COVID shot.
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You know what I'm saying?
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And that's the thing is I think that's what he's talking about
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in regards to certain parts of life.
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But like if it goes against the Bible, he's going to go against that.
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But nothing about getting the jab or not getting the jab is biblical.
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You know what I'm saying?
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But abortion is biblical.
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Telling people they can't go to church on Sunday.
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That's biblical.
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You know what I'm saying?
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But things that are unbiblical, that's where you have,
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you know, things that aren't built in the Bible, not unbiblical,
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but things that aren't built into the Bible like the jab,
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that's up to Christian freedom.
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You can get the flu shot.
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You can not get the flu shot.
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You know, you can vaccinate your kids or not vaccinate your kids.
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It's up to you.
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Yeah.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Yeah, I don't, gosh, I don't know if I even read it like that.
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I mean, I was just reading this as I should pray for my leaders.
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Yeah, I read it.
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And like, and honestly, Republicans should be praying for Democrats.
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Democrats for Republicans.
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And obviously probably not doing that.
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But the idea being that we're praying for their salvation,
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we're praying for wisdom to come to them,
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that they would make decisions that are based on the capital T truth.
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You know, that's kind of what I got it.
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So I was just thinking like, do I pray for my enemies or my perceived enemies?
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You know, certainly that's harder to do, but we got to love them all.
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You know, so go ahead.
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Yeah, Kyle, I'm kind of with you, except I'm split.
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Because I think I disagree with the first part of John MacArthur's commentary there,
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but I agree with the second part that if we're going to be persecuted,
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it should be for righteous living, not civil disobedience.
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And I think to me, that's the difference because the second part of that is
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that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all what?
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In all godliness and reverence.
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And I think reverence includes like you're talking about the
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reverence and the value of unborn life.
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I think godliness and reverence applies to the continual worship of him
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in the spot in the face of, because if you look at it, I mean,
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think of Hebrews and Hebrews counts Daniel as a man of faith.
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And Daniel, when he was under Nebuchadnezzar, when he was under Darius,
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and he was under a third king.
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I can't remember who it is right now, but when they all made edict,
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saying that he couldn't worship his god, what did he do?
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He worshipped his god, right?
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I mean, so I think that's the point what I'm saying is something has to win out.
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So if righteous living in civil disobedience are happening at the same time,
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which one wins out because like you could be living righteously,
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which is going directly against the civil authorities and magistrates.
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So are we supposed to just abide by what the magistrates are saying?
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Are we supposed to live righteously?
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He was doing that on his own.
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But he was doing it on his own.
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And I see I interpret civil disobedience as a I'm going to be the one grabbing the
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picket, rallying the troops and go standing out on the and throwing a riot or throwing bricks
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through windows because I'm mad because they said my church couldn't worship on a Sunday
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because we're a non-essential business.
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I think in this situation, I think Daniel had the exact replica of righteous living,
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and it was civil disobedience, but it was not public civil disobedience.
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It was like a righteous living because this is what's right.
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Well, I think that's too extreme of an example because James Coates in Canada,
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he wasn't arrested for throwing bricks through the legislators' windows.
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He was arrested for holding church in Canada.
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And so in that point, that's the exact point that I'm making is like,
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that was a civil disobedience to an atheistic, amoral government that said,
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you can't gather.
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And if you do so, we will arrest you.
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And they did.
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The man went to jail.
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And now he was eventually released.
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But it's like, that's what I'm talking about.
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And so if that's not persecution, I'm not exactly sure what is persecution whenever you're being
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arrested by an authoritarian, totalitarian, top-down government that has a boy model as the prime
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minister.
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But at the same time, it's like somebody, a lot of people thought James Coates was acting unbiblically
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and sinfully in that moment because he was going against the dictates of the civil magistrates.
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Okay, I disagree with that.
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I think he was good.
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Well, I think civil disobedience is,
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I mean, what law are we disobeying?
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You know what I'm saying?
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Like Daniel disobeyed the law.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Like whether he did it publicly or privately, he disobeyed it.
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And so there's laws that we're going to have to disobey, you know?
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And I think MacArthur did the right thing.
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James Coates did the right thing.
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They held church.
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They didn't force.
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They didn't say, hey, you're going to be a part of this congregation.
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You're going to show up every Sunday.
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They had it open for people who wanted to come in worship.
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They weren't pushing it down anybody's throats, you know?
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And they allowed, they worship God, you know what I'm saying?
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And they should be allowed to do that.
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That's our God-given right, no matter where we're at, you know?
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And luckily nobody was persecuted with death like in other countries.
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But I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
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No, I mean, they went along living peacefully.
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The only people that were unpeaceful about it were the people arresting them
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and shouting them down.
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Yeah, and I would agree.
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I think we both agree then that, you know, Daniel was doing that privately.
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He was just doing, and he was being disciplined at the same time.
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Same thing with this church deal.
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I mean, it wasn't, they weren't going to the government.
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They were just continuing to practice what they, what they practice.
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And, you know, it's reminded of a verse in First Thessalonians.
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And whereas, you know, it's, I can't remember exactly, but it was just basically like,
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you can, you can be persecuted for, or persecute is not the word.
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You can, you can be judged and put down for being stupid, you know?
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And, and then, you know, so don't do that.
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But, but you're also likely, you could be persecuted for living a righteous life,
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but it's much better to live a righteous life and to be persecuted than just to be
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stupid and get in trouble.
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When I think what this leads to as well, and people say this,
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and they think it sounds so smart and so godly and so awesome and beautiful.
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And, and people have said this out at that interview on the show and it just people in my normal life.
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You know what, I'm going to be known for what I'm for, not what I'm against.
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And it sounds really good.
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Like, put that on a sign, put that on a t-shirt.
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Yeah, that gives you really, really warm fuzzies and all that.
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But it's like, can we go one layer deeper than that silly vapid statement that literally,
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it doesn't have any connection to reality?
12:37
Because when you look at Jesus, and we've talked about Lamb and Lion, we've talked about,
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you know, grace and truth, we talked about all those different things.
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When Jesus approached people and confronted them about, well, I mean,
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the answer is in the setup, he approached them about their sin, and then he absolved them of it.
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And then he saved them from the eternal punishment of that sin.
12:58
But he never went up to people and just said, you're forgiven and that was it.
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Like he pointed out their sin, he would say like, you know, go and do this no longer.
13:05
Like those types of things.
13:07
And so when people say that, what they mean is is, Andy Stanley talked about this last year
13:12
in a sermon series.
13:13
And again, I think Trump really broke a lot of these people's brains.
13:15
Like if you break from Trump and you kind of like get into a lot of the civil side of things,
13:20
but it's like, when you ask one of these big church pastors, like, hey, why didn't you talk
13:24
about Black Lives Matter whenever they were doing $2 billion worth of damage after George Floyd
13:29
died in police custody?
13:30
Why didn't you talk about race?
13:32
Why aren't you talking about LGBTQ issues?
13:34
Why aren't you talking about the fact like you were so angry about the Supreme Court
13:38
doing this thing, but you're not angry about, you know, the Supreme Court doing that thing.
13:42
You're so angry that evangelicals would support Trump, but then you don't say a word about the
13:46
senatorial, the Senate Republicans that basically voted to enshrine marriage, gay marriage and all
13:52
these different things inside federal law.
13:54
But when you say things like being known for what I'm for and not what I'm against,
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you're using that as an excuse to not talk about real issues.
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And that's one of my biggest problems with these cowardly pastors is they don't want
14:05
to talk about the real issues and they're hiding behind us.
14:07
We want to be loving.
14:08
We don't even want to feel judged.
14:10
And so they bring in an assassin like me here.
14:12
I'll come in and talk for 90 minutes about abortion because you don't have the stones to do it,
14:17
because you can't find in your years and years of wisdom how you can talk about that issue and
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not make people feel completely condemned, but also to point out the actual capital T truth of the
14:26
situation.
14:26
And so I feel like I don't know if this is a movement of society or if this is a movement just in
14:31
church or if it's just overall a cowardice within the capital C church that people don't want to
14:35
talk about these main issues and they're using statements like this as an out.
14:38
Why do you think that is not pragmatic?
14:40
Well, it's certainly not secret sensitive.
14:43
We talked about that quite a bit.
14:44
It doesn't bring people in.
14:45
Yeah, you're not.
14:46
It doesn't keep people around.
14:47
Yeah, if you talk about spiritual warfare every week and tithing in the odd numbered weeks,
14:51
like that's going to be a major problem for you.
14:53
Yeah, I mean, Bonhoeffer, he kind of bucked the system back in the day.
14:56
Yeah, he tried to kill somebody.
15:01
I wish he would have succeeded.
15:02
I mean, what were those pastors doing?
15:03
They're just kind of falling into line, right?
15:05
Eventually, what Hitler started just taking pieces of the Bible out.
15:10
The change line.
15:11
Yeah, completely changed.
15:12
They're like, Oh, okay.
15:13
All right.
15:13
Well, and Eric Metax is in a letter to the American church, which he released in 2022.
15:18
He talked a lot about that that there was an actual number.
15:21
So I don't want to specifically say the number, but there was a relatively small percentage of
15:25
German pastors that if they had fought back against some of the early dictates of the Nazi party,
15:31
there is no Holocaust.
15:32
There is no World War II.
15:34
And it was because of these like needle-dicked preachers and pastors that they just couldn't
15:39
possibly bring themselves to push back when they needed to push back.
15:42
And maybe it was societal pressure.
15:44
Maybe they were afraid of what people would think about them.
15:47
Maybe they were afraid to lose their top knot.
15:49
But at the end of the day, we'll go ahead, Eric.
15:50
Yeah, that's exactly what it was.
15:51
As they were afraid, because I remember it was, Eric on your show talked about it.
15:55
And I remember reading in Eric's biography of Bonhoeffer about how when these German
16:03
church pastors, because they split, they actually split between the confessing church
16:09
and the German church and the German church pastors, if they said something that went against Hitler,
16:15
they would lose their license and they would lose their church.
16:18
Yeah.
16:18
And so they just--
16:19
And their livelihood.
16:20
And their livelihood, yeah.
16:20
And so they would just acquiesce one step and then another step and then another step until
16:25
they were completely backed into a corner that they were supporting something that was absolutely
16:30
false when, if they would have supported it early on, none of this would have happened
16:34
throughout Germany.
16:35
And I do feel like it was on Eric's interview on your show that he said the same thing.
16:42
If pastors will address political issues in culture, then we will not acquiesce and lose
16:49
blue steps to what culture is taking out of our church.
16:52
Yeah.
16:53
And the point is we, you know, I mean, yes, you can do it individually and certain individuals
16:58
can have a bigger influence, but it should be a unified effort, right?
17:04
And I think that's where we fall short is you have a lot of guys working on islands,
17:08
you know, here and there, or just not at all.
17:11
Well, and let's say the we, because we've talked a lot about pastors and leaders and teachers,
17:16
where does the we really start?
17:19
Me, starts with me, right?
17:21
It starts with me and my house and my family.
17:23
We're going to talk about things.
17:24
We're going to look at God's word for things.
17:26
We're going to live out things and we're going to make choices.
17:28
So that's professionally, vocationally, that's all I do is help families
17:34
understand and determine who their, what their family values are.
17:37
Hey, this is who our family is.
17:39
This is what we stand for.
17:40
And therefore, this is what we do.
17:42
This is what we don't do.
17:43
And you know what that does, Derek, and I've talked about this a lot on the show.
17:45
And a lot of people taking this advice to heart.
17:47
And I think it's add some major impacts for churches, but it gets usually abortion issue,
17:51
because that's usually the most hot button of the issues.
17:53
And let's say your pastor is not talking about the abortion issue nearly enough.
17:56
And I encourage men to set up a meeting with your pastor.
17:59
You go in to that meeting and you tell your pastor, hey, if you start talking about some
18:03
of these hot button issues and you use the Bible to lead us in a moral and righteous way,
18:08
I know a lot of slings and arrows are going to come your way.
18:11
And I'm going to take some of those for you.
18:12
So I'm going to stand behind you.
18:13
I'm going to support you.
18:14
And I'm going to take some of that heat off you.
18:16
And then you get 10 more guys like you to set up meetings, all in succession.
18:21
And you all go in there and you tell them the same thing because you're going to steal his nerves.
18:25
You're going to give him the courage that maybe he doesn't have in and of himself.
18:28
And then what that does, but where does that start?
18:30
That starts with you individually and then it starts with your household.
18:33
And then you carry it into your ecclesia, you carry it into your church community.
18:37
Because again, look at just people love to look at the the finality of major elections,
18:42
right? Whether it's for president or Senate or house representatives or something like that.
18:46
But when you have races being decided by less than 10,000 votes and you break that down to the
18:51
number of households across the nation, right? That that's not that many households or across
18:58
the state or something like that. That's not that many people. That's not that many people that
19:01
are using the Bible to guide their own lives. And then they're guiding their own families and
19:05
their wives vote the same way that they do, which I know is like super patriarchal to say.
19:08
But those are the things is like think about how much different the world would be.
19:12
Yep. Those pastors not stepping up in Germany in the 1930s changed the trajectory of the planet,
19:19
of billions of people's lives. And but at the time it probably didn't seem that grandiose.
19:26
It didn't seem like that big a deal. Hey, you know, that's not really a hill worth dying on.
19:29
And I tell people all the time, like a lot of conservatives, a lot of Christians, a lot of
19:32
nice people are going to wake up one day and the war will have passed them by. And they never
19:37
once got into the battle, they didn't pick up their helmet, they didn't put on their shield,
19:40
they didn't grab their sword because there was never a hill worth dying on.
19:43
It wasn't the transing of the kids. It wasn't murdering kids in the womb. It wasn't any of those
19:46
things. And then one day they're going to wake up and they're going to wag their finger at the
19:49
culture. It's like, I'm sorry, you weren't speaking into the culture. So I can't hear you right now.
19:54
Well, here's the thing you have to look at there too, is if I'm a pastor and I'm preaching,
19:57
it's usually expository type preaching. I'm going from verse to verse, diverse in some chapter
20:02
in the chapter or in the book of the Bible. Yeah. You know, so like, I don't expect our pastor
20:07
to have like a whole sermon on why abortion is wrong. You know what I'm saying?
20:12
Why not? Because, because the point of Sunday is to discuss God and the gospel.
20:17
And so... And to equip the saints.
20:19
And to equip the saints, but equip the saints in the gospel. Now, if we come to something in the
20:23
gospel like we did in, we were going over the Ten Commandments and we talked about murder,
20:28
our pastor definitely brought up abortion as murder. For five minutes.
20:30
And sin. But he still brought it up. I mean, that's speaking truth into that.
20:35
I don't expect him to do a 45 minute sermon on why abortion is sin.
20:39
Like, I totally vehemently disagree with abortion and think that it's wrong.
20:45
But the purpose of Sunday is not to glorify God. You know what I'm saying?
20:52
And so if we're discussing that in a certain chapter of the book,
20:55
then let's discuss it. You know, maybe he could go longer than five minutes. I'm fine with that.
20:59
But I don't expect a whole sermon on why not abortion is wrong or LGBTQ or anything like that.
21:07
So I agree that you can't be a pastor that preaches the news cycle.
21:10
Like, I don't want to hear what the pastor has to say about any of the headlines for this week.
21:14
We're the pastor preaching the news cycle. That's what I did. Yeah.
21:16
Yeah. And so again, I've used a word vapid already. So, but like it's very vapid and very
21:20
like there's not a whole lot of foundation to that. The problem is, is church is about glorifying
21:25
God. It's also the equipping of the saints. It's also a means of discipleship.
21:29
And so part of the reason why I'm so you know, vehement and loud about the abortion issue
21:34
is because I can walk into just about every church in America and stand a random congregate
21:39
up and I can destroy their pro life worldview by asking a single question.
21:43
What if she's raped? What if she's raped by her uncle and all of a sudden it's like,
21:46
well, I guess we can kill that kid. It's like, well, gosh darn it. I guess that five minutes,
21:50
every five years that you spend on the abortion issue doesn't exactly have the impact that you
21:54
thought it did. No, and I agree with you. I mean, we had that conversation. You changed my mind on
21:58
that. That's why I think that's what our adult Bible study fellowships are for. You know what I'm
22:03
saying? That's where we can dig into the word and we can be discipled by the people in our church
22:08
who are leaders within our church. You know, Sunday morning that an hour and 15 minutes is for worship
22:14
and it's to learn from the Bible. And if we want to dig deeper on certain subjects in regards to
22:19
our culture in the Bible, I think ABF is a perfect our adult Bible fellowship is the perfect place.
22:23
That's what our church calls Sunday school. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's that's where
22:28
it comes in. You know, like, I feel like that's where we can get that. I see. Yeah. So to your point
22:34
is I think it is a little asumptive to think that pastors on Sunday morning are teaching
22:41
a book of the Bible and going through verse by verse. I think it's a little asumptive because I think
22:46
it is less the norm than it is the norm. Oh, no, you're 100%. So I think one, if you, this goes to
22:52
anybody, any of the people listening is if you have a pastor that perhaps is preaching the new
22:59
cycle or isn't is preaching topically or providing maybe something that's a little bit shallow of a
23:05
message. Ryan, you talked about earlier. Hey, judging truth kind of puts the onus on us that we have
23:14
to pick up the Bible and read God's word to understand what truth is to understand and to
23:18
know enough to test it back against God's truth. And I think this topic goes in the same vein in
23:24
the sense of, hey, if you have a pastor or a leader of your church and you still feel called to be at
23:28
that church, that it's important that you pick up the onus responsibility and you lead it out in
23:33
Sunday school, you lead it out in conversations. Kyle, I love your point to say, no, you set a
23:38
meeting with your pastor and you say, I would love to see these points and I'm willing to stand
23:41
with you. And so I want to encourage anybody listening that, hey, if there is a part, a topic,
23:49
something that you feel like you need to stand for because God's word stands for it and it's not
23:53
happening inside your church or your community, you are fully capable and charged to go do that.
23:59
I agree. Yeah, how far do you think it should go? I mean, should your pastor also then say,
24:04
hey, I'm voting for these people and therefore I think you should too. I mean, what, where is
24:09
there a, is there a line? Well, so what's funny about that is with the last election cycle that
24:14
we saw last November, there were, because there are tax codes where basically if you use your pulpit
24:20
as a, as a political entity, you could lose your tax exempt status. But every leftist pastor on the
24:26
planet that brings in a democratic politician to speak from their pulpit, I think is violating
24:29
that. So I'm pretty sure it's not going to be an issue for a lot of people losing their tax
24:33
exempt status moving forward. But I remember, even at my church, before the election last
24:38
November, I remember him saying, and I'll probably remember this forever, he said, you know,
24:44
you know, everyone should go out and vote, you know, men sacrifice their lives so that you could,
24:48
you could go out and vote, make sure you practice that. And also vote biblical values. And then he
24:53
went into his expository, you know, sermon, and it was great. And you got to learn digging in the
24:57
scripture. And I know what he meant, but I also know how people heard it. And there are a lot of
25:03
people that are doing things that are supposedly loving, supposedly biblical, but they aren't people
25:08
of the book, they don't actually read the Bible. And so what they think they're doing is they're
25:13
voting in a compassionate way for that poor woman that just can't raise that fourth kid.
25:19
She's got to have this abortion, or you know, her life might be over. Her mental health might
25:24
become a major issue. And so they're voting in a way that is a biblical because the pastor didn't go
25:29
that very next step to say, by the way, it's unfortunate that we live in this dichotomous side
25:34
of politics. But one party's platform is abortion up until the moment of birth for any reason at any
25:42
time paid for by taxpayer dollars. I don't think you should vote for a single candidate that agrees
25:48
with that because there's nothing more fundamental than the amago dei than the image of God and image
25:53
bears. Do whatever you want to do on immigration, talk about tax code, talk about Ukraine. I don't
25:58
care. But on this particular issue, I think it would be sinful for you to vote for somebody that
26:03
is going to empower people to murder my children. But what if they're pro public education?
26:07
Well, I mean, I would say, I mean, that was that was during that cycle about last November. It was
26:13
all about education. You know, it's like, forget about abortion. Like, let's let's fund public
26:18
education. I mean, I see pastors all over that. You know what I'm saying? Well, what aired to
26:22
your point, though, with that last cycle, if you looked at democratic spending, which is the party
26:27
of abortion, the party of baby, the party of baby, baby murder, they spent hundreds of millions of
26:32
dollars just during the midterms for ads about the abortion issue. Most of it was misinformation,
26:38
convincing women that if they had a miscarriage, they were going to be arrested, or if they had an
26:41
ectopic to her pregnancy, that they weren't going to be able to get treatment, all these lies that
26:44
people just bought because they're morons. But like these, these exact things, they didn't spend
26:48
money on convincing people about why we should be supporting Ukraine or why we should, you know,
26:52
allow for the transing and the children, they didn't spend money on those issues. They spent it on
26:56
that issue. And so when we get into all these other ancillary things, like it's cute and all,
27:01
but that's where I think our pastor should absolute not necessarily say, here's my ballot. I'm
27:06
going to put it up on the screen. And this is how I think everyone should vote. But it's like,
27:09
you can't vote for these people and expect to be standing up for the truth of the gospel. He can't.
27:14
I agree with you because if you look back at some of the headlines in November on stuff where it
27:18
talked about, you know, people, you know, one of the things that people were voting on in the
27:23
polls was that the country's moving in the wrong direction. Right. And the wrong direction that the
27:27
country thinks that we're moving into is that and abortion. That's where they think the wrong
27:33
direction. They think we're backwards. They think we're backwards because of that. And I,
27:36
and I agree. I mean, I think it's something that we definitely need to discuss. I think our church,
27:41
I honestly think our church are the right thing by having you come up and speak and take a Wednesday
27:45
night and have that have you there to discuss that argument. I would prefer that as a person
27:53
you know, as a as a church person on on a Wednesday or on a different day, but Sunday is used for
27:58
preaching. You know, and if if the if in the word it comes up to abortion or to LGBTQ or whatever it
28:06
is in within that within what he's preaching on, then yes, I would be surprised if he doesn't bring
28:12
it up and he should bring it up. You know, but if he does, if he doesn't, that's that's a red flag.
28:16
But I don't think it's like, Hey, this is what's going on before election day. Let's have a
28:21
to have a discussion on abortion for 45 minutes to an hour and 15 minutes.
28:24
Well, I certainly don't want to be able to, you know, I don't want to walk up to a pastor to my
28:29
pastor and then ask him those questions and get some beige answer. Like I, he, I expect him to have
28:35
a formulated opinion based on the word of God and the doctrine, you know, they're in so.
28:42
When I guess the thing is, is like you're the type of guy that would totally walk up to to our
28:47
pastor. We go to the same church for anybody listening to this to go to our pastor. And I think
28:50
we have 1,500 to 2,000 members, something like that that go to our church. I think every service
28:55
has like 1,000 people, maybe it's 1,000. We'll say it's 1,000 people. So maybe there's six Eric
29:00
Brownings that are willing to go up to our pastor or even send our pastor an email and say, Hey,
29:04
I'm, I'm actually like, I feel like I'm having my own garden of guest sem, guest semany moment
29:09
trying to figure out who to vote for here. Like, can you please help me? And they would be able to
29:12
give them help. But then 99% of the rest of the congregation is just going to do that based on
29:18
their own guidance and to allow the cause the culture will tell you exactly who you should vote
29:22
for. Like there's no shortage of people that are willing to spend money to tell you who to vote for.
29:27
But as a pastor to be like, ah, that's not really my place. Like hell, it's not your place. Like,
29:32
what is your place if not to lead your flock? Because you're going to, I'm not going to have to give
29:35
an account someday for how I led the flock. Because that's not my job. You're going to. And if you
29:40
live in a community and you refuse to speak into that issue and you voted for particular things and
29:44
that led to the slaughter of tens of thousands of people just in your community. Sorry, but you're
29:48
probably going to have to give an answer for that. You better have a really good argument for why you
29:52
didn't feel like it was your place. I don't I don't disagree. Yeah, I had a percent agree with you,
29:57
Kyle. Well, I know we're that, you know, there's there's a whole lot more that can be said on that,
30:01
but believe it or not, that's not even the most controversial part of the first Timothy to I need
30:08
to just go ahead and read the section. Because like I said, from the very beginning, this is one of
30:12
the shorter chapters, you know, in terms of all of Paul's letters that were broken down. But my
30:16
goodness, is this a lightning rod for a lot of people? So let's go ahead and read versus eight
30:21
through 15, because we're going to spend a lot of time breaking down each one of them. And I'm
30:24
reading from the ESV. I desire then that in every place that the men should pray lifting holy hands
30:30
without anger or quarreling. Likewise, also that women should adorn themselves in respectful
30:34
apparel with modesty and self control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.
30:39
But with what is proper for women who profess godliness with good works, let a woman learn
30:44
quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a
30:49
man. Rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve and Adam was not deceived,
30:55
but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing if
31:00
they continue in faith and love and holiness with self control. So a couple of interesting things
31:05
before we start breaking this down, because man, we could spend all kinds of time just breaking this
31:09
down verse by verse. So in this section, eight through 15, verse eight is for men. Verse nine through
31:15
15 is for the women. Okay, but the lessons are for all of us. Okay. So if you're a man that doesn't
31:21
mean you turn your brain off and nine through 15. And if you're a woman that doesn't mean you
31:24
ignore verse eight. Okay. So again, verse eight, I desire then that in every place that men should
31:29
pray lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling. I'm pretty sure that's about a straightforward
31:34
as it gets. Okay, I don't know that there's a whole lot that needs to be added there. Whenever I
31:37
tease this up any further, if you want to add something, feel free, go for it. But when we get
31:40
into verse nine and 10, likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectful apparel with
31:45
modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire. But with what
31:49
is proper for women who profess godliness and good work. So I want to start there. So a bugaboo
31:54
for me for a guy that didn't grow up in church. And when I started going to church, it was first
31:57
Baptist West and lot in Oklahoma, pretty conservative, pretty old church in terms of its age,
32:04
wasn't much of an issue. It wasn't until I started going to church in Edmond in the first
32:08
church I went to up here was live church. I was astonished at some of the things that the women
32:13
were wearing, uh, not just the, the cut, but the, it was just loud. It was obnoxious. So it was,
32:23
it was somewhere between so unbelievably flashy to be distracting or so unbelievably revealing
32:31
to be distracting. And again, some people really like to focus in on the braided hair thing,
32:35
gold and pearls. It's like, well, I saw your wife with, uh, with ponytail. And it was braided
32:38
like, no, no, that's not the point. It was people at this time that were dressing in a way that was
32:43
distracting the rest of the congregants. Um, but it was basically telling people that they should
32:48
be modest and women shouldn't dress in a way that will tempt a man. And I've even, you know,
32:52
done this before. And, and I know some men that have done this. So, so I really mean this in all
32:56
humility, but I know there are women out there that are very attracted to things with their eyes.
33:01
And so I, I try to not dress in a way that is, that is, you know, when I'm speaking,
33:05
I don't want my dress to be distracting. That's where I wear all black. Like, and it's, you know,
33:11
not ill-fitting, but it's not the tightest it can be because I don't want anyone to be getting
33:15
distracted by my t-shirt or my jeans or, you know, anything like that. I want people to not be
33:19
distracted at all. But even in our church, even in our Sunday school class, I see women walk in
33:25
wearing stuff where I can see more of their cleavage than I can't that I can see more of,
33:30
like, I don't have to leave a lot to the imagination when it comes to what's up the rest of their
33:33
legs. The amount of plastic at our church that's inside of women and not being worn on the outside
33:39
in terms of jewelry, it's astonishing to me. And there, that brings up a lot of things about modesty,
33:45
about what are the men in these women's life doing? Are they encouraging these women to go and do
33:50
these things? Why are these women so self-conscious that they have to get augmentations to different
33:55
parts of their body in order to feel a certain way? Especially if these are supposed to be people
33:59
of the book, they can't find their satisfaction in Christ. They find it in Botox injections and
34:04
lip injections and fake titties. It's just like, these are the things, sorry, was that a little
34:07
much? Sorry, dear. But, but that's the thing is for me, like, I don't know why this is such a,
34:12
well, I do know why this is such a bugaboo because it's really, really hard for me to not look.
34:15
So voyeurism, not like voyeurism, like peeking in people's windows and looking in their panty
34:19
drawers, but that's never been a problem. But like bouncing my eyes and not being distracted by
34:24
the menu of other female options that are out there, that is always going to be a struggle for me. I
34:29
have to be very, very conscious about walking into a room or an establishment where there's going to
34:35
be a lot of things available to me in terms to look at. And so, you know, I'll let you guys hop in
34:40
here before I get myself in any more trouble. But man, you know, there's a whole lot more to cover
34:44
here, but the modesty of women, especially in the church, gosh, it's such a big issue and no one
34:47
seems to care. Yeah, I mean, part of the reason that this was, he was saying this is because
34:54
in that time period, a lot of these pagan religions were sexually based, I mean, at half-radiety,
35:00
just as an example, I mean, and I don't know a lot about that religion other than I know that
35:08
there were virgins and basically that didn't, they weren't really virgins, they were, they were
35:12
harlots, you know, and so there was a whole lot of focus on these, these were religions that were
35:18
sexually charged. So I do know that's part of it. But yeah, it makes sense. Why should I go to,
35:25
just like you were saying, you know, when we were talking earlier, when we go to church,
35:30
we should go to worship, not to be looking around, you don't be distracted.
35:34
Or be the distraction.
35:36
Or to be the distraction?
35:37
Exactly. No, it's exactly right.
35:39
For women, it's different because they're looking at, oh my gosh, that girl looks like
35:42
she gets her nails done every week. Gosh, I can't really get my nails done every week. And again,
35:46
like women don't always dress to impress men, they dress up to impress other women. But it's
35:51
like if you're at church and you're focused on, and our church is especially bad because we're in a
35:54
fairly affluent part of our community in a very affluent city. And I mean, there's as much money
36:02
running through our church is just about any congregation on the planet. And with a lot of people,
36:06
you know it. And we've got our people that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars and they
36:10
walk around and old, you know, new balance shoes and stuff like that, and you would never know it.
36:14
They're riding around in a 10 year old car. And so there's a lot of that flash there.
36:18
But it is the distraction. And it's a distraction for me from a sexual temptation point of view.
36:22
But Ryan, I think you were going to get into this as well. It's a distraction for the women
36:25
because they're constantly playing the comparison game. Go ahead.
36:28
No, please jump in. Go for it. Oh, go. Okay. So I would say it's nice to each other. Somebody
36:32
say something. I got it. Kyle, I'm absolutely with this week. Kyle, I'm absolutely with you.
36:38
I think it is. It is from the female perspective, it is not just a distraction to other men that
36:44
they want the attention because the needs, the needs of most women and back in Galatians,
36:50
we talked a lot about wiring, right? Like the way that we are wired or our children are wired or
36:55
wives are wired in a specific way too. And this goes back to John Eldridge's teaching is that for
37:01
a woman, for a girl, she needs to see, she needs to be seen and she needs to be known or told that
37:08
she looks beautiful. That's what she like. That speaks to her heart based on the wiring that God
37:12
created in them. You think about every little girl, anybody that has a daughter and she puts
37:17
on a Disney princess dress and she runs downstairs and she twirls around in a circle because she
37:21
wants what? She wants everybody to see her. She wants everybody to say she's beautiful.
37:25
And she especially wants a dad to tell her that's exactly right. That's exactly right.
37:28
And so one, the women, as they walk into the churches, as they're wearing revealing stuff,
37:33
they want to be seen and they want to be told that they're beautiful or at least feel like they're
37:36
beautiful, even if that means from the eyes of men that are not not their husband. Well, that's
37:41
one thing that makes you want to look at yourself as a husband. If your wife is seeking approval and
37:46
wanting the world to look to see her as beautiful, it feels like she has to go to church dress that
37:51
way. What are you, how are you treating her at home? That's exactly where I was going.
37:54
Okay. No, no, no, no. No, that's perfect. No, I'm glad you picked up on that because that's
37:59
exactly where I was going. And so I mean, I mean, that's the thing is it comes back to worship and
38:04
that's what he's coming to. He's like, take, it's not about you. The Bible's not about you. I said it,
38:10
you know, weeks ago, and the, and church is not about you. You know, church is about God and it's
38:17
about his word. And so I think that's what he's just getting into. He's just saying, you know,
38:21
they're the women were braiding their hair. They're putting diamonds in it. They were coloring it.
38:26
They were doing all these flamboyant things. And there was also probably some homely poor women
38:30
there that couldn't make themselves beautiful that, you know, that brought jealousy. So I mean,
38:35
I can tell you, I mean, I've been, you know, I guess I'm calling myself out. I mean, you know,
38:40
I was in our, our church group and somebody was teaching that some really nice boots on
38:45
now. And I was like, those are some nice cowboy boots. You know what I'm saying? I was like,
38:49
still nice. I caught myself, you know, like, you know, looking at Kyle's cowboy boots.
38:53
It's funny. You say that as a joke, but like, no, but it's true. I was like, those are some nice
38:58
boots. Well, even like, you know, I know some of us have a sales background. A lot of guys in this
39:02
audience have a sales background. When I used to do some different sales, like I was in a sales
39:07
thing where there was a lot of different parts to the sales cycle. So there's kind of an introduction,
39:12
there's a hey, let's really get to know each other. And now let's close. And like, I know quite a bit
39:16
about nonverbal communication, but also colors. And since I look like this, and I'm so like intense,
39:21
and so angry ginger, in those early meetings, I would always wear a muted blue or green shirt,
39:27
because it was the most inviting, less invasive, less intense color. And I would always sit back
39:32
in my chair, and I would never lean across the table. I would make everybody as comfortable as
39:35
possible. But then like my wardrobe would get progressively darker. As the meetings went on,
39:41
when it was time to come to a decision, I'm probably wearing dark blue or black. And I'm leaning across
39:45
the table and it's like, look, there's no other information that you need. And that's not manipulation,
39:50
because when you're when you're selling widgets that nobody needs, it can be manipulation. But
39:53
whenever you're selling a product that that people really, really need, that will help them check all
39:57
the boxes they need for their life, like that's kind of what you need to do. And so it's your job
40:00
to make people as comfortable as possible. It's your job, if you're running a bed and breakfast,
40:04
to make sure that it's not a billion degrees in there, but that it's at a comfortable temperature.
40:07
So people don't wake up sweaty or wake up freezing or something like that. But I think that there's
40:12
not enough emphasis put on correction. So whenever, you know, we'll use our church as the microcosm
40:19
example, that if there is that gal that that comes in, and she's wearing something like that,
40:24
that is so obviously inappropriate. Where are the women in her life that are going to pull her aside
40:32
and say, um, I know what you wore is really pretty. And I know you really like it. But did you see,
40:39
I kind of scanned the room while you were up in front of the Sunday school talking. And the guys
40:44
weren't seemingly paying attention to what you were saying. And I do have a really good example
40:49
of this from a church that I used to attend. There was a gal. This is one of those churches that has
40:52
74 people on stage, and it's not a choir. They're all kind of differently in singing or whatever.
40:56
And there was a very attractive young woman who was wearing a very, very short skirt. And this was
41:00
at a church where there's a stage. And so if you're sitting front row, use your imagination. And so,
41:06
and one of the pastors wise, one of the main lead pastors wives took this gal aside
41:14
immediately in between services and said, honey, I think you look great. Obviously,
41:20
you're in great shape and all those things. The men noticed too. How about we go change?
41:26
And that was a woman with some wisdom. And that's a that's an awkward thing. Because like,
41:33
but at the same time, like what about for a man? Like what if what if a guy was constantly pointing
41:38
to how fancy his watch was or hey, yeah, hey, these are just really cool boots. These are actually
41:43
like a crocodile that I killed and then I had a guy put it together and they cost me about 10
41:47
grand. But it's not a big deal because I do really well. Like that imagine if that were the type of
41:51
thing. There should be some men in that guy's life to be like, Hey, brother, those are some really
41:55
nice boots. Let's let's not talk about it anymore. You can wear them without point yourself to it
42:00
because you're distracting people. That's not the point of why we're here.
42:02
Yeah, no, I agree 100 percent, which is the need and the call and the importance of community,
42:09
most importantly, right? Yeah, you talk a lot about this on your podcast about men having a
42:15
foxhole men having other men around them that they can that they can lean on and that those men
42:21
can speak into their lives and not having the poll of culture, which is to autonomy. I think
42:26
the same also goes for our wives or the women in our lives. The young women as they're growing up
42:31
inside the church to have that community and to have that relationship and relationship equity.
42:36
And I would say to to people listening, if you don't have a community, go get one. And if your
42:40
wife or your spouse doesn't have a community, encourage them and lead them to go get one because
42:44
they need that. And for the women that are coming in that need the eyes that need the looks right
42:50
to your point. Like, there's a need, there's a void there that needs to be discussed.
42:57
Well, you need women to teach subtlety. So one thing I want to tee you up with. So I've watched
43:01
you and your wife for a while, because we used to be in the same ABF and a lot of those different
43:04
things. And your wife is a very classically beautiful woman, but everything about her
43:10
is subdued or muted. And like in her personality, she's not one to stand up and like go crazy and
43:16
freak out and all that. But she's elegant. Like I think in the things that she wears and like I
43:21
talk to my wife in the same way. Like, you know, there are things that she could show off to the
43:26
population of the planet, but she dresses elegantly and she dresses in a way that would be honoring
43:31
to God. And she is never the distraction in a room. And I think that's a very virtuous thing,
43:37
right? Oh, absolutely. And I've told her for years that just everything she wears, I was like,
43:42
you just look, you look wonderful, you know, and she is, it's really, it's all about her character.
43:51
I've not had to really prod her at all. Because I mean, dozens of times of the years, she'll come
43:57
out, she'll be wearing something, say, Hey, is this look okay? She'll ask for my permission
44:02
to wear something or, you know, cover it up more or whatever. And I just really, really appreciate
44:08
that about her. And I can only imagine that that came from a mother and a father that raised her
44:14
right. You know, I was just, I don't know, I've seen it across my Facebook feed. But apparently
44:20
in the last week, there's been a lot of problems or not problems, but like Christmas dances and
44:25
things like that. Wow, have you seen some of these dresses? Oh my goodness. On girls. On girls.
44:33
Not women. These are girls. Yeah. On girls. I mean, maybe eight to 12 inches of coverage. I mean,
44:39
unreal. And then they got a little slit coming up the side to give a little bit more. It's we're
44:44
doing something wrong if we're not. Do you see me? Am I beautiful? Those are the questions that
44:49
they're asking, right? And there's someone out there that'll answer that. Somebody and it's a hairy
44:52
legged boy that will do it. And it's the wrong person. Kyle, to your point of all of this,
44:57
something you touched on made me think back to could this right could verse nine and 10,
45:04
where it is for these, which is proper for women professing godliness with good works.
45:09
Could that relate to what we were talking so much about number two, living a peaceable life in all
45:14
godly and godliness and reverence? Like could living modestly, dressing modestly, not talking
45:20
about your alligator boots and showing them off? Could that be a peaceful life living in godliness
45:24
and reverence? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I certainly think that would be the case. And again, guys, we're not
45:30
railing against like if you've got a Rolex or a nice car and those things like that. That's not
45:34
the point. The point is if that is one of the main things that people talk about when they talk
45:39
about you, they're not talking about your character, they're not talking about your godliness or
45:42
not talking about anything like that. Like that's when it becomes a major issue and a distraction
45:47
for people. And again, that's why I think like everyone thinks the modesty conversation happens
45:51
with women and girls, but it happens with men as well because I know a lot of men that are in
45:55
really, really good shape and they dress accordingly and they dress so people can can see the things
46:00
about them that would be attractive to the opposite sex. And yes, there are fundamental
46:04
differences in how women are attracted to things and how men are attracted to things men are obviously
46:08
way more visual. But at the same time, like there there needs to be modesty and all things like
46:13
there were men that I knew that wore that wore suits all the time and that they wore very
46:18
well-fitting suits and you didn't know these men were in incredible shape until you saw them in a
46:21
t-shirt at the gym and they were almost sheepish about it. It wasn't like they weren't looking for
46:26
every opportunity to take to take their shirts off or anything like that. And I know that there are
46:29
even church groups that get together for like pool parties, like adult pool parties and things
46:33
like that. And I'm like, is that the best use of everyone's time? Like I'm anti-pool anyway,
46:39
because that's where the sun lives. And you know, when the sun goes anywhere near this ginger skin,
46:43
it becomes a problem. But it's like, it's impossible to not evaluate a person's body at a pool party,
46:49
because the men are there with shirts off and the women are there with two-piece or even one-piece
46:54
suits, like swimsuits that are very, very revealing. And it's like, look, if we're trying to model
46:59
godliness and all that, that doesn't mean that we don't ever go to the pool. But my goodness,
47:03
like the level of immodesty, I feel like it's something you're not even supposed to say. So when
47:06
you see the prom pictures or the the fall formals or whatever the the homecoming dances or whatever
47:11
those things are, these little girls are, they're convincing their dads, no, this dress is okay.
47:17
And that is a perfect moment, dad, to be like, I'm sorry, you don't get a vote. The dress is not okay.
47:23
And we're going to do what we need to do to make sure that that's not the advertisement that we're
47:27
putting out. But again, it does come back to the validation. Where is that little girl getting
47:30
validation from? Because she will get it from somebody. And we've talked about before, like with
47:34
gangs and stuff like that, if a little boy doesn't have a father, he will find a bunch of fathers
47:38
in the form of a gang. And there he's going to do anything for that group of people because that's
47:42
their family at that point. So I think we've kind of belabored the point there. And I think we've
47:46
really nailed it. And again, guys, if you thought that was offensive, we still haven't gotten to
47:50
the most of the first Timothy to because yeah, that comes in verse 11 and 12. Here are the most
47:57
patriarchal patronizing, horrifically terrible scriptures in all the Bible. So you guys ready for
48:03
it? Let's buckle up and go verse 11 and 12. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
48:09
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain
48:14
quiet. So I know I was kind of teasing and being a little bit funny. And I understand that our
48:18
audience is about 10% female and most of the women that are listening right now, they're not at all
48:22
offended at seeing a room full and then discuss this and talk about it. But there's not a whole
48:27
lot of everybody every dumb person's favorite smart word nuance here. There's not a whole lot of
48:32
different levels. There's not a whole lot of different ways to where you can look at this verse
48:37
and find a context that fits into a second, third or fourth wave feminist mindset. It's pretty
48:43
straightforward. Women should not teach to men. That's clear. Period. That men have authority
48:48
in the teaching role. But also we can see extrapolated out from this that women aren't to not teach
48:53
ever. They're to not teach men. So they are to teach children. They are to teach each other.
48:59
They are to be a part of the discipleship process, but they do not have the explicit role of teaching.
49:04
And let's talk about that before we move on to verses 13 and 14, because we get the reason why
49:10
in verses 13 and 14, because Paul doesn't leave us to our own imagination. He gives
49:14
us the two main arguments as to why that's the case. But guys, let's talk about that because we
49:17
live in a modern era where, you know, you got your George Myers and you got all your other folks and
49:22
these are women that are leading churches. And that's not just an Episcopalian problem.
49:25
And that's not just a woke church problem. That's a lot of people that if you just pull
49:30
general Christians in America right now and ask them, even in the Catholic church that have,
49:34
you know, 2000 years of tradition around not having female fathers, right? Not in a transense,
49:41
but in, you know, the fatherhood of the priesthood sense. But we're in this modern moment where most
49:45
people are like, that's not that big a deal. If you're teaching pastor as a woman, it doesn't
49:49
matter. Again, these people don't read the Bible. But again, we just we think we know better. Yeah,
49:53
yeah, yeah, that was the rule 2000 years ago. But haven't we evolved past that? Aren't we better
49:57
than that? So let's let's jump in there. I think we should dive into verse 11. You know,
50:01
women must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. You know, when Paul was learning,
50:08
you know, the Hebrew Bible, he had to learn it through submission. He had to listen to a teacher.
50:15
He had to be quiet and he had to submit and listen. I think this is basically showing,
50:21
hey, we're going to teach men this way. We should teach women this way as well.
50:25
So if a woman's going to be under teaching, she needs to be submissive and quiet and listen to
50:29
the teacher. I don't think it means a woman should never talk in church, you know, or a woman should
50:34
never share her testimony or a woman should never, you know, pray, you know what I'm saying. But
50:40
when teaching is happening, she should be quiet and submissive just as a man should be quiet and
50:46
submissive is listening. Just my thought. So when you say a woman shouldn't,
50:54
so are you saying that there are circumstances where women should teach you the entire congregation?
50:59
No, what I'm saying is what he means here is submissiveness and instruction. So if we want to go to 12,
51:06
a woman should never exercise authority over a man. So she'll never hold a senior pastor position.
51:12
I mean, women's pastors, children's pastor, you know, by all means, you know, because women can
51:17
teach to women and children, but she should never hold authority in the church. I mean,
51:21
if we go back into the rest of Timothy and we go into Titus, it's going to, it's going to
51:27
basically build out the elderboard and what an elderboard should look like and what elders should
51:30
look like. And those are the leaders within the church. And so women should not hold a leadership
51:35
position with the church. I think I used to be pretty staunch on this, where I didn't think women
51:40
should be deacons. And my heart was changed on that, because I believe that women should be servants
51:47
of the church and should be deaconses. So but yeah, they, I don't believe that they should exercise
51:52
authority over a man. I would have to like ponder on the, but to remain quiet part. So I might let
52:01
that marinate for me for a little bit. So quick follow up on that. So you don't think they should
52:06
have authority of them over a man, but in and of itself, the office of Deacon does have authority.
52:10
Over a man, does it? It's just it's serving hood. So office of a Deacon doesn't have any authority
52:18
over people. The office of a Deacon is to serve the church. So that's either to put the chairs out,
52:24
go and talk to somebody who's sick or go help do food stuff. That's, that's, it's like, if you
52:31
look at Phoebe in the church, some people want to call her an elder and say that she was a leader,
52:35
she wasn't she was a deacon. She was a deacon. She was a servant of the church.
52:39
If we look at Lydia, is it Lydia? Yes. Lydia opened her home as a servant to the church and
52:45
started the church within her home, but she wasn't the teacher. So yes, I do believe that women should
52:51
serve, but doesn't mean if they serve as a deacon, mean they have authority over man.
52:54
So I guess that that begs the, what is the line between Deacon and elder? Again, you guys,
53:00
we're going to get there. So I'm obviously that elder actually has authority on how the church
53:05
should be run and how the church should move and how, what the church does. A deacon is just a
53:10
servant of the church. It's just a person who's like, all right, I want to go pick up the mailbags,
53:15
you know, so they don't have a, they don't voting rights. They don't have the, well, that depends,
53:20
you know, some churches, you have voting rights when you're voting in a new pastor or you're voting in,
53:25
you know, and that's congregational. That's congregational. That's congregational.
53:28
That's congregational. Men and women have voting rights, but like, let's say, let's say we're looking
53:32
for a new pastor of our church. Well, that's a, that's a part of the elderboard and the elderboard
53:37
is going to look for that pastor and that's going to be a full of men. You know, the deacons don't
53:41
come in and they don't have any say on, on who the new pastor is until it goes through a congregation
53:46
vote. So I think we have to have a distinction of what is an elder and what is a deacon because
53:52
both sides can use it in the wrong way, you know, because we're going to say, hey, Deacon has, has,
53:59
has power and really they don't, you know, I just, not that there's any confusion,
54:06
but, but it's not that women aren't smart. No, it's not that they can't understand the Bible.
54:11
It's not that they don't have wisdom to speak over other people. This is just strictly the way
54:16
God set it up. Well, yeah. And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to rip it. Oh, it's okay. Go ahead. Yeah.
54:20
And that's where it is is, you know, that's where Paul gets into, you know, God, God is the head and
54:26
Christ is ahead and the church is his bride, you know, and that's us men. We are, we are the head
54:31
of the family, you know, and this is our bride. We're going to care for our bride just as much as the
54:35
church. Christ is going to care for his church. Yeah, you know, and so I want to, I want to make
54:41
sure that my bride knows that she's loved. She's beloved, you know, we're our church is beloved
54:46
to Christ just like my wife is beloved to me. She's very much smart. She's probably smarter than,
54:51
you know, I'm saying, but when it comes to authority and leadership, she puts that into my hands.
54:55
Yeah. And I was just thinking like James three, I believe, if I remember, says not many of you
55:00
should, you know, claim to be teachers, because you'll be judged more strictly. So it's not like,
55:07
and she'll be like, Oh my gosh, let me let me be judged more strictly. I mean, I mean, we have been
55:12
put into that role, you know, and that is just, that's our lot, you know, so we need to be second
55:17
Timothy to 15 16, which is dividing the word of God rightly. Right. Right. And I think to your point,
55:26
or for husbands and fathers, hey, we are the spiritual leaders of our home. So for that we are
55:32
responsible and we have to account for our wives and children in our home. And so whether we like
55:37
it or not, we're already called to a higher standard and we already will be judged more strictly
55:42
than those unmarried or don't have wives or children. I'm trying to find it in Peter,
55:48
but your talks about how the woman is, I want to make sure I get this right.
55:56
While you're finding it, I think we'll be able to kind of get back to it. But even as we talked
56:00
in one, one quick thing, I think there would be people that would significantly push back on
56:04
whether or not deacons have actual like authority or control, but we can certainly,
56:09
well, probably when we get into chapter five, we can talk even more about that. But when you get
56:12
into 13 and 14, this is where Paul gives you his reasons for this, because it's one thing to just
56:17
say it because Peter, or because Paul was, you know, a patriarchal, toxically masculine man,
56:23
but he gives you the two reasons for Adam was formed first, then Eve, okay, there's order.
56:28
And then in 14, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
56:33
And so this actually took me back to also the conversation I had with Lisa the last time she
56:37
was on the show, Lisa Childers, and she actually talked about and she kind of said it sheepishly,
56:42
but she talked about how, and not in as many words, but that women are more susceptible
56:48
to being taken advantage of, or they're a little bit more gullible in certain circumstances,
56:53
not as discerning. And just hearing a woman in 20, like she said in 2022 to hear a woman say that,
57:00
it's like, wow, like how backwards can you possibly be like you just, man, you must live in the
57:06
handmaid's tail, like it was that type of a circumstance. But no, it's like, we see that right
57:11
here in verse 14, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor,
57:16
which does not mean that Adam had no role in this because Adam should have been protecting her
57:21
from the serpent. Adam was sitting there with his thumb up his butt, like just started looking
57:25
around like, Oh, look at that tree. Hey, look at that monkey. And it was just kind of one of those
57:28
weird deals where it's like, no, like he wasn't doing his role either, but he wasn't the initial
57:33
transgressor. And that's that's where we get into that. But did you find out Peter? So first Peter
57:37
three seven, you're you husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way,
57:42
as with someone weaker, since she is a woman. And it's basically some translations called a
57:47
weaker vessel. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not that your wife is weak, you know, and she's not strong.
57:53
In certain areas, she's just she's weaker in some areas. And I think I think in one thing that my
57:58
wife excels at better than I do is empathy, you know, and and sometimes when we take our empathy,
58:05
it can make us weak in regards to what's going on within within the culture to bring in a false
58:11
gospel. You know what I'm saying? And so it's like, that's one thing that I think, you know,
58:15
I think we have to look at it. Yeah, we're just reiterating that men and women are equal in
58:21
essence, different in their roles in salvation. Yeah, in salvation men and women, when it comes
58:26
to the Amago day in salvation, men and women are equal. But when it comes to we compliment
58:31
each other. So complimentarianism is what we would get into on that topic. Well, I mean,
58:34
if you look at it, the Jewish faith just by the Mosaic law was incredibly saving for women of that
58:42
time period, because there was the Mosaic law gave them value of some sense and told men and
58:48
women how to treat women. And then you look at the Christian faith. And I think we talked about
58:52
it in Galatians about, hey, there is neither male nor female slave nor master, you know, like,
58:59
hey, we are all equal as it comes to the faith and Christ. So we are not talking to your point,
59:04
Ryan, it's not talking about weaker as in importance or value, right? We're talking about specific
59:12
roles. Right. Well, because people think the Bible is retrograde in that it's like, oh, it's this
59:17
super unbelievable thing, but you have to think about it in the context with which it was written
59:22
at that time, women were less valuable than cattle. Right. And so it's like, no, no, no,
59:26
they for the first time in the history of humanity, they had value, right? Right. And so because,
59:33
because for up and to the point where we start getting the Bible, it was might made right.
59:37
And who's the more mighty of the two genders who sorry, two genders, it's the men, it's the males.
59:43
And so might makes right. And so there's only so much control that a woman has over reproduction,
59:49
especially in that time, if a woman or if a man wanted to be able to propagate his DNA, he could do
59:55
so guys. And so that that's the thing that we this is the first time where we get the value. But then
1:00:00
people think that we love to categorize value in our modern parlance to be like, wait, women get
1:00:06
lesser roles in my eyes. So they're not actually equal. And that's what a Galitarians will argue
1:00:11
to where it's just like, you know, it's be too transgressive for people. If we were to talk about
1:00:18
this and to talk about women and men as if they have different roles, so let's just make everybody
1:00:22
the same. Let's just clear the playing field, which kind of leads into the transgender ideal,
1:00:27
worth the worth of things. So a lot of people in the egalitarian side, they don't really realize a
1:00:30
lot of their argumentation backs in to a lot of transgenderism. But right here, like, it's like,
1:00:34
no, no, no, like, it is possible to have equal value, but to have different roles.
1:00:39
Think about like any team you've ever been on, even in scripture, how it describes the church,
1:00:43
there are people that have really loud, really sexy skill sets, their exhorters or their speakers,
1:00:48
or they're they're really good, you know, in that way. But they're just as valuable to the overall
1:00:53
workings of the church as the people that are making the coffee, the people that are putting
1:00:56
out the chairs, all those different things. They just don't have as sexy of a way of displaying it,
1:01:01
I guess. But I think we should look at look at modern culture in regards to like, let's say,
1:01:05
me and my wife get a divorce. I will never happen, but let's just say that happens.
1:01:09
Are they going to be like, well, they're equal when it comes to the kids. So I have
1:01:13
to weigh who the kids should go to equally. Never whatever they're going to send them with their
1:01:17
mother. Why? Because she complements better on what she does nurturing wise than I as a man will do.
1:01:24
Why? Because we have different roles. And in our culture, our modern culture realizes that not
1:01:32
biblically, but through their own law. But we want to act like everything's equal. Well, Ryan,
1:01:37
we even see that in verse 15. Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith
1:01:43
and love and holiness with self control. Now, don't take that to mean that somehow women giving birth
1:01:48
saves them in terms of their overall, you know, salvation in terms of eternity and things like that.
1:01:53
But essentially that what that's saying, if I if I can put it in brief, is that women will be
1:01:57
protected from false teaching if they focus on their families. Because it's really hard to get
1:02:02
romance by somebody's false teaching. If you're worried about rearing your children,
1:02:07
if you're worried about caring for them and doing the things that you were built to do,
1:02:10
you know, that's something, you know, my wife and I've talked about because both of our
1:02:13
sons are below the age of three. They're in that that's still in that mode where they need a whole
1:02:17
lot more of mom than they need dad to do. Now there is a time period. And some of you guys have
1:02:22
already gotten there with your sons where it's like, it's not that mom is not important anymore.
1:02:26
But this is a different ballgame. And john Tyson talks about this in the intentional father to
1:02:30
where they had the severing dinner when when the kid was 13 or 14. And now it's like, okay,
1:02:34
your mom is 100% your secondary parent. I am your primary parent. And she is she still has
1:02:39
authority over you and she still has leadership over you and she still loves you. But she is not
1:02:43
your primary parent what you need now as a man, you don't need a woman as much as as you need me
1:02:47
as your father. And so I think that's really important here as well. And again, this seems
1:02:51
very transgressive and very backwards and no, I don't think this is an excuse that every woman
1:02:54
should work out the home and should homeschool their kids and all that. If you take it that way
1:02:58
and want to live that way, I'm not saying you're an error, right? If that's the way that you decide
1:03:02
to live, that's probably going to be okay for you overall Christian freedom.
1:03:05
Yeah. And I think that's that really gets into it further.
1:03:08
Yeah. And I and I read this. I thought it was really interesting. I mean, that's kind of a
1:03:11
downer like when it says, you know, she was deceived, you know, and and the sin came through her,
1:03:16
basically. That's a that's pretty big downer. But if we think about it, too, God redeems that woman
1:03:21
in woman kind through the Savior because the Savior came through a woman, right? And not through a man.
1:03:31
So I think that's kind of a beautiful way to just kind of think about her redemption.
1:03:34
That is beautiful. Well, guys, I think we covered, I think if we're not going to get canceled for
1:03:39
this particular episode, I'm not, we just have to try harder the next time we come back to the
1:03:43
forging table. But guys, we're going to have to leave it there. But come back next Sunday,
1:03:46
where we will dig into first Timothy three, make sure you guys read that over the next week so that
1:03:50
you were prepared. But before that you go, we're going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted
1:03:53
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