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[MUSIC]
0:42
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:53
Let's get into it.
0:53
All right, guys, welcome back to the forging table.
0:56
The mission of Undaunted Life is equipping me into pushback darkness
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with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
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So at the forging table, you will see a group of regular guys
1:05
forging spiritual resilience by digging into God's Word.
1:07
And we're welcoming all of you to come along on that journey with us.
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That is Ryan, that's Derek.
1:11
That's Eric guys.
1:12
We're digging into first Timothy one.
1:14
So we did Galatians, and now we're moving on to first Timothy.
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So this is written by Paul as well.
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The date of this letter was likely written between 62 and 64 AD,
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according to my research.
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And this is a letter from mentor to mentee.
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Okay?
1:30
And so this is a very important way to kind of look at this,
1:33
to look at how is Paul communicating to somebody who is trying to learn from him
1:38
and who he's basically trying to leave a legacy with so that he can continue spreading the gospel.
1:43
And then also, it's kind of like a father and son thing as well,
1:46
because Paul looks at Timothy as a son in a lot of ways,
1:50
and you can see that come throughout the letter.
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Now, what we do know about this letter is that it was a personal letter
1:56
that was meant for Paul to send and for it to be seen by Timothy's eyes.
2:01
But you can see several other areas in the letter
2:04
where it becomes apparent that the letter is that Paul wanted this letter to be more widely,
2:09
you know, utilized and he wanted the message to be spread out.
2:12
It wasn't just for Timothy's eyes only.
2:14
And the letter addresses a lot of issues that were happening at the church and ethicists at that time.
2:20
And this is considered one of the pastoral epistles.
2:23
And so even in, you know, just this first chapter, there's so much that we can get into.
2:28
And I certainly have stuff that I want to get into,
2:29
but I wanted to kind of set it up for anybody else that wanted to say something about first Timothy,
2:32
the letter overall. What does anybody got?
2:34
I understand it to be one of the last, if not the last one of the last two letters written before
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Paul died. Yeah, I think Titus was the second one, wasn't it?
2:46
That I don't remember. But if they want to be the last,
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if they are, they're both based on church leadership. Right. So I mean, it gets pretty deep into
2:55
what a church should should look like and how it should be set up.
2:58
And I think right from the beginning, of course, we have the greeting here,
3:02
because again, this is even in a personal letter, there's kind of a formal greeting,
3:06
but then we get right into a warning against false teachers.
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And so we had this when we were going over Galatians, we were talking about the Judaizers
3:13
people that were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, the blood of Christ and all that kind of stuff,
3:16
the cross. But here's all this other stuff that we should do. But even there are false teachers here
3:20
that are kind of doing something even a little bit different. And regardless. And when you guys
3:24
are listening to this, whatever the current moment is, there are false teachers all over the place.
3:28
They have big churches. They have enormous Instagram accounts. They have a lot of followers
3:32
and subscribers on YouTube and all of that. But you have to go back to the book to see is what they
3:37
is what they're saying is it good theology? Not, not is it conservative theology, but is it theology
3:42
that is really has the Bible as its foundation? And you know, it may seem like I'm skipping ahead
3:48
just a little bit here, but I go all the way to verse seven here, but I'll start with verse six,
3:53
certain persons by swerving from these have wandered away into vain discussion,
3:58
desiring to be teachers of the law without understanding either what they are saying or
4:03
things about which they make confident assertions. So I don't know that there's ever been something
4:09
that was written 2000 years ago that seems more applicable to our current moment in terms of like
4:13
social media and things like that. I remember last year when I was talking to Elisa Childers about
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her new book, Oh gosh, why the gospel? No, gosh, so she had another gospel and then it was,
4:25
God, speak your truth or God bless. I just forgot. I'm so sorry, Elisa. It's a great book. And you
4:30
know, I'm glad that you sent it over to me. It'll come to me like in the middle of somebody else
4:33
talking. Oh, it's live your truth. Live your truth and other lives. There we go. Live your truth
4:37
and other lives who made it so we can still be friends. But she's talking about in that book.
4:42
And we were talking about it on my show. I was basically talking about how, you know,
4:46
she and I are both, I guess you could call us influencers in the Christian space and
4:50
she's kind of an influencer for females, especially, but also she has more of a mixed crowd, whereas I'm
4:55
more so focused on the men's audience. But I would hope to never ever be able to have somebody quote
5:02
First Timothy one seven to me and be like, that's you, bro. Like you're making these assertions and
5:08
you have no understanding of what you're saying, but you're just being confident, which I think goes
5:11
back to prideful man, which obviously I struggle with pride. And you know, that's why I say in my,
5:17
you know, how to avoid being a crappy man thing at the beginning of every year. One of the things
5:21
I put in there is if you don't know how to do something, don't pretend like you do, because you're
5:24
robbing yourself of a opportunity to learn, but you're also robbing someone else of an opportunity
5:29
to teach. And I mean, even if you know the lingo, everyone's going to kind of know that you don't
5:34
know what you're talking about. And you just seem like a prideful fool. But that's where I really
5:38
jumped. That's the first thing that really jumped out of me on this first letter from Paul to Timothy
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is just this overall idea about, look, there are false teachers amongst you that sound confident.
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They look good while they're saying it, but they're full of crap.
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Well, the other thing is, too, you brought up social media. I mean, like, who mind are you ever
5:54
going to change on social media? Can you get on me? Wait, no, wait a minute. No, no, no, no. See,
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we need to back up a little bit here, because he just brought that in as if that was his own
6:02
wisdom, because literally for the last two years, this guy, Ryan Horns sitting right across from me,
6:06
he has never found a like a argument too small to have with somebody on social media. And I've
6:13
been on him literally for the last two years. But I will just say, Hey, Ryan, how many people are
6:17
changing the worldview based on your well crafted comments to their comments and your responses and
6:22
things like that. And shockingly, I know this is going to be shocked everybody in the audience.
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No one ever changes their worldview based on your really well crafted comments.
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You know what? I think you're right. I actually reached maybe one guy. And I think it was on
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Alisa's Facebook. And he's, you know, he's dealing with deconstruction.
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And he and I actually had good conversations because yeah, I mean, I made he think that
6:46
you were a dude or that you were your wife. I guess he knew I was a dude.
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Okay. So no, I wasn't. Why would I be honest? My wife? Oh, I maybe I'm missing or some Facebook.
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Oh, okay. Okay. So he's posting from his profile. Oh, I wasn't pretending to be my wife.
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I was like, that's like, hey, I'm just serving for dude.
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I think Eric is accusing you of having a burner account.
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I do have a burner account, but you have access.
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Uh, Ryan Linda Horn. Yeah. Okay. Stop it. Stop it.
7:23
But no, I mean, he and I had some like pretty good discussions in regards to how he was a
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he was a big, he was big and great comfort stuff. And I like Ray, you know, but he just,
7:32
you know, he got felt like he got burned by the church and is going through a, you know,
7:37
a patch of I think just dealing with a church hurt. And he and I had discussions on that.
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I don't think I ever changed his mind, but I was just there to talk to him, you know.
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So I, I've learned to kind of like tone it down. I mean, you're not going to change anybody's mind
7:53
on Facebook. You're not going to change anybody's mind on Twitter. Usually when I,
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if I make a comment, it comes out sarcastically. So it's not very fruitful. It doesn't lead to
8:01
fruitful discussions. But like, that's the thing to look at though too. Like look at these false
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teachers that do have, you know, accounts on, on Twitter and then look at the people commenting.
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Like, if you write something that's cultural or worldly and you're trying to wrap that around
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the gospel, like in, in people who are not Christians or atheists and, and are not believers are agreeing
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with you and like, yeah, yeah, I like that. You know, like, that's a guy you're like, I don't want,
8:26
I don't want to follow that guy. If the world's going to think what you're saying is right,
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I want to second guess whether you're, you're a good teacher or not.
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Well, I agree. And I think a teacher is a good clarification there, Ryan, because
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what this talks about when, when I look at verse six is versus six and seven from which
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I'm having straight, having turned aside towards idle talk, they desire to be teachers of the law.
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And I read an article a long time ago, maybe Gina, my wife read an article and was telling
8:55
me about it is really there are speakers and there are teachers, right? And here it, it talks
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about Paul talks about a teachers are held to a higher standard. We are held accountable for those
9:06
that we call underneath us and we teach to, but there are speakers and teachers speakers.
9:12
They're you're eloquent. They're exciting. They're engaging, but they don't actually,
9:17
they might entertain, but they don't teach. And then there are teachers, right, who actually want
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the other people to understand what they're talking about and to grow and develop in their,
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specifically here, grow and develop in their understanding of Christ and their faith,
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which means they'll be challenged. They're not going to be receiving flattery.
9:34
Right. You know, yeah, you guys are doing great. You know, right. There's a challenge to that.
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You'll see in some churches, they have a teaching pastor and that teaching pastor, like I always say,
9:42
better come with the word, better come with the gospel. You better, you better know what
9:46
you're talking about and it better be fruitful. And then you have your discipleship pastor or your
9:50
lead pastor that can lead through discipleship and shepherding. But I don't think it matters
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what your title is as a pastor. You should always be shepherding.
9:58
Sure. I mean, and that's, I think what we're getting away with with large churches is, you know,
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how are we, how are you shepherding your flock, you know, and what's your flock doing, you know,
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because that's going to be your fruit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you, you kind of see it like,
10:14
played out in where you're just going to get a whole bunch of anecdotal stories and then maybe
10:20
if they throw in a verse like once sprinkle it with some verses. Everyone's like, you get to,
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they googled the specific term that they're going to talk about and find the three verses
10:29
that match and my favorite one is like when you're like looking at the verses that they put up there
10:33
and you're like, you know, like the first one's like NASB and then it's like, and then it's message
10:38
and then it's like, oh, I need this to fit like, you know, if they're talking about Phoebe.
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Well, I need this to fit my narrative. So let's go ahead and go with the contemporary version,
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because that says elder instead of, you know, deaconess, you know what I'm saying? So those
10:50
always make me laugh. But I mean, you can see, you can see the teeth in a sheep on those types of
10:56
sheep and you should always be looking and there should be discernment on who you're learning from
11:00
and what you're learning from. But it's also good to, you know, chew up the meat and spout
11:04
the bones too. I'm not saying don't listen to anybody. Don't, you know, but be discerning.
11:08
Well, in terms of discernment, it's also like, do you.
11:11
So, so what exactly is this message that you're getting from these people? Can it be,
11:16
can it be taken back to the gospel? But also, are you building your ministry around a personality?
11:21
Or are you saying, Hey, follow me as I follow Christ? And so that's something for me to say,
11:25
because a lot of people listen to the show because they like my personality. They like how I cover
11:29
faith culture and politics. But it's one thing, if I were to be preaching a false gospel, whenever
11:34
we do talk about the gospel, or if I'm taking people back to to capital T truth, and I've talked
11:38
about this before with with a guy like Matt Walsh, because he gets in a lot of dust ups about the
11:42
transgender issue, or about, you know, even last year on Joe Rogan show, he got into, you know,
11:47
in a discussion about gay marriage and, you know, why it's important and all that. And this is a
11:51
guy that purports to be a Christian, you know, Catholic, you know, believer those types of things.
11:55
But he has some consternation and hesitation about pointing people back to the truth. And his,
12:00
the author of truth and capital T truth in and of itself. And the problem with something like that
12:05
is his argument, I understand, you know, from a political standpoint or philosophical standpoint
12:10
is like, well, somebody doesn't believe in God or believe in the Bible. And I make that the basis
12:13
of my argument, then I'm not going to be able to sway them. And I'm sensitive to that argument.
12:17
I completely understand that because I can convince you to be pro life and not use a single scripture,
12:21
whatsoever. But if somebody were to ask, why is human life valuable? I can't explain that using a
12:27
Bunsen burner and a beaker and, you know, the periodic table. Like, I need to go to why we know
12:32
that human life has value, why we're different than the other, you know, created beings that
12:36
are on this planet. But I do really struggle and that makes me fearful that when you build up these
12:42
ministries based on someone's personality, like a Robbie Zacharias, or a Bill Hybels,
12:46
or a Carl Lynn, it's like people that we've seen fall. It's like, okay, you can't build a ministry
12:51
around a personality, right? And there are people that haven't fallen that may never fall. So you
12:55
have like a Joel Osteen or a Steven Furtick or a Craig Rochelle or any of these types of people.
12:59
These are men that may never fall. They may never do anything that's outside of, I guess,
13:04
proper culture or things like that. But he comes a massive struggle because it's like,
13:08
what if something happens to that guy? Your entire ministry implodes. Derek, you and I have talked
13:12
about this a lot. We used to do some things with ministries that focused on wild at heart.
13:15
And everything they did was about wild at heart, John Eldridge, and no matter what. And obviously,
13:19
we're big fans of John Eldridge here. And he's been on the show more than anybody else.
13:22
But if I, as I would always bring up to this group is like, if John Eldridge decides he wants
13:26
to like chop his wife's head off, the light is kids on fire, and then go on a shooting rampage,
13:31
your ministry doesn't exist anymore because you built the entire thing based off of one man's words
13:36
and one man's personality. And you weren't focused as much on the gospel on Jesus Christ,
13:41
the God of the Bible. Well, I mean, isn't that Jim Collins's book? Good, great. I mean,
13:46
that's level four leadership, right? I mean, because it's built around that level four leader.
13:49
And so if you want to get really cheesy here, we could just say, well, Jesus is really a level
13:53
five leader. That's what you, but outside the continuum, you know, yeah. But I think Kyle,
13:58
your point is correct. And Ryan to you to you as well is, okay, if we're going to discern what
14:04
is truth, how do we discern? And this is a question I'd love to hear you guys, your perspective on this.
14:10
How do we actually discern truth? This might be for a listener or somebody who's who's
14:16
walking in, not knowing if they're under a false teacher or a true teacher, not understanding if
14:22
what podcast they should listen to or not listen to. How do we as believers walking with Christ,
14:26
how do we discern truth? How do we do that? It's, and I actually went through this in my life.
14:32
Um, you know, we were in a church for six years. I just showed up, you know, we listened to the
14:37
message if you did listen. And, um, we just, we were just going through the motions. And then all
14:44
of a sudden, you know, the pastor starts saying certain things. I'm like, that doesn't really sound
14:49
right. And then he has somebody come and speak and I'm like, whoa, that guy's way off. You know,
14:54
and then that guy who came and spoke, um, he, uh, has like a newsletter. So I go and read the
15:00
newsletter and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like this is not biblical at all. Here's the thing I
15:04
realized. I never opened my Bible. I, the pastor never implored us to open our Bible. You know,
15:11
it was like, basically said, listen to me. It's like, yeah, it's like the Reformation. You know,
15:14
it's like, Hey, it's like, he might just trust us. Yeah, just trust me. You know, you don't need to
15:18
open your Bible. Like he even told us to get closer to God and just go out and do something for
15:22
somebody rather than open your Bible. Learn about who he is. Like that's one thing like,
15:27
think, uh, was it John Cooper that said it the best? Like, you know, me as a reformed Christian,
15:31
I want to know who I'm worshiping. You know, I want to, I want to know about the God that I worship.
15:36
I want to know about the God that I'm putting my faith in. And I can't do that by listening to
15:40
some guy and hoping like, Hey, I hope he's right. You know, no, God gave it to me here in his book.
15:45
And why don't I just open it up and read it? And that's how I can discern on what a teacher is
15:50
teaching, whether it's false or not false. Um, you know, and that's just kind of like what we did
15:55
and that brought us down to a table that we were, we started looking at other churches.
16:00
But the funny thing that really jumped out to me is you guys brought up John Eldridge and like,
16:03
you know, putting some stuff together. I remember a sermon series,
16:07
the pastor had on Bob Goff's love does like we didn't open our Bibles.
16:12
We were reading love does by Bob Goff and trust, I love Bob Goff. I think he's a great guy,
16:18
you know what I'm saying? But like on Sunday morning, I should be worshiping God. I should be
16:21
diving into this book, not wondering like, Hey, let me read this love does and see what, you know,
16:26
and see how that plays out for me, you know, yeah. And I was thinking of the verse, I was trying to
16:31
pull it up because I've got it in my memory, but I don't remember where it was from.
16:34
But it says these were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica in that when they received
16:39
the word with alreadiness, they went home and then searched the scriptures to make sure that it
16:43
was true. So it was like they were going home and going, man, let's dive into this a little bit deeper
16:47
and then just trying to figure out whether what they heard was actually truth. I love
16:53
the church that I go to because, I mean, our pastor just kind of lays it bare. It's just
16:58
verse by verse by verse. I mean, if he's going to get it wrong, it's going to be pretty obvious
17:03
at some point, you know, as opposed to just sprinkling in those, those verses here and there.
17:07
Well, so that's whenever people ask me like, the number of times I've been asked, Kyle,
17:11
do you have a list of churches in the US that are man-friendly that are expository,
17:15
you know, preachers that guys that are looking and going verse by verse? And I was like, look,
17:19
I could have a team of two dozen people and that be their only job and it would still not be a
17:24
complete list. And like you're like, what are these people supposed to do, check in with the church
17:27
once a month and make sure that their teaching is not getting heretical? Because there are some
17:30
very prominent churches that'll leave nameless because, you know, they're not really here to defend
17:33
themselves at this exact moment. But some of their decisions that they're making about their
17:37
pastors and some of their, and I think you guys know who I'm going to be talking about, but
17:40
the decisions they make concerning their pastors, the teachers they bring in, embracing of some of
17:46
the woke side of theology and critical race theory and things like that. It's very concerning.
17:50
But what I think this, this leads to, and this is kind of to go off of your question, Derek,
17:55
is, okay, how do we determine what's true or false? Great. Yeah, I think we all agree,
17:58
go back to the scriptures. But what about subtle, false, false it? What about, well,
18:04
you're a new King James, new King James guy and, and I'm a as you know, ESV guy and, you know,
18:10
he's a message guy and you're an ASB guy or like, I got to be the message. Yeah, for those of you,
18:15
I made sure I pointed it right for the message thing. But like, okay, that's going to give you at
18:19
least a tent and everything's going to be tinged in a certain way. And then you have people that are
18:25
like, well, you know, what about we don't have the original manuscripts of any of the biblical
18:28
texts? Like how can we know things? But then when you go back and piece everything together,
18:32
there's nothing, you know, where there's like 98% agreement as to what the Bible is saying,
18:36
none of it has to do with core foundational things about Jesus, the trying nature of God,
18:41
you know, the cross or any of those types of things. It's like misspellings and different
18:44
things like that. But I'm wondering about the subtle falsehood, because let's say you even go
18:48
to an expository church where the guys go in line by line by line, you're getting his perception of
18:54
it. Like here next next week, when we get into first Timothy two, like I'm going to talk about
18:59
something that was written in a commentary that I that I vehemently disagree with. And this this
19:04
is a guy who is who is an absolute, you know, he's on the pantheon. Like he's on Mount Rushmore for
19:10
people in terms of Christianity. And it's like, what do you do at that point? Like, Hey, I don't
19:13
think you're right. Like, I don't think what you're saying. Like, I remember, you know,
19:17
when the last services I went to a live church, I remember Craig Rochelle using an example
19:21
that was so out of context for the Bible, but it made perfect sense for, you know, week three
19:26
of his five week series on how to be a good this or how to do well at whatever, whatever. And I was
19:30
just like, Oh, man, there's thousands and thousands of people that were here this weekend. And they
19:35
didn't catch that because either, you know, they're not in the scripture or they're not, you know,
19:39
figuring out, you know, the things for themselves. So so how do we discern the subtleties or even
19:44
know that, you know, maybe the pastor didn't mean to mislead us, but they did nonetheless.
19:50
And that that affects how we view the rest of scripture for the rest of time. Is that kind of
19:54
making sense? Absolutely. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I would say I'll take a couple of stabs at that
19:58
Kyle from my own experience. What I believe today is not what I believed. Not exactly step-for-step
20:05
what I believed 10 years ago, right? Yeah. And so I think it is one, like you said, testing it back
20:12
to scripture because truth is a person. Jesus said he's the way the truth of the life. We so we do
20:16
test it back to scripture. And then two, we listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Ryan, I think
20:20
your story of, Hey, whoa, hang on. Wait a second. I realized that and I'll probably add this to your
20:28
story is, Hey, the Holy Spirit probably brought it to your attention of, wait, we never opened the
20:33
Bible. Oh, yeah. I mean, and so I think it's a, I think it's an iterative growth leaning into the
20:39
promptings of the Holy Spirit and growing towards that sanctification. Yeah, and there's a continuity
20:43
to the Bible too. So I mean, one of the things I learned when I started studying the Bible is this
20:47
idea of cross referencing. You know, so there's, there, if it says it here, then there's going to be
20:53
probably another spot, another spot, another spot that is also hitting on those same areas.
20:57
You know, that's one of the things I appreciate that again about our pastor is just that he's saying,
21:01
you know, here's my evidence, you know, for why I'm saying this. Here's some other thoughts about
21:06
the other and other things that people believe. And so I'll, you can have that too. But, but here's
21:13
why I believe what I believe and I can point to these different areas in the Bible because it's
21:17
continuous. And I think that's a great point, Eric. I'm glad you brought that up because the Bible,
21:21
if you look at Wayne Grudom's biblical doctrine, right? I mean, the first piece is
21:29
the inherency of the, of the scriptures. And so scripture is not going to contradict itself.
21:34
And the thought that we have has to be taken against scripture as truth. Scripture is truth.
21:40
It's not a it is true. No, no, no, it is truth. So means everything else has to be tested against
21:46
scripture to be proven true or false, because scripture is the truth and it won't contradict
21:50
itself throughout all of scripture. It might sound different. I heard a pastor talk often of
21:56
a sometimes scripture sounds like it might contradict itself until we actually understand and
22:01
understand the context, because the way that you describe how a baby is made can be true and sound
22:09
different, depending if you're talking to a seven year old, a 14 year old, compared to a medical
22:15
student, right? You're going to say truths in all ways, but it might not be as detailed or as
22:22
specific with one group as the other. So if somewhere in the Bible, it says, let's take the
22:27
gospels because they generally tell the same four stories. Everybody was there. Do you think
22:34
that literally means every single person was there or do you think that's figurative speech,
22:38
right? Compared to another section that might say there were 5,000 people there, you know,
22:44
so I think that's a great point, Eric. And I think one thing we have to look at too is like,
22:48
you can't have the New Testament without the Old Testament, because the Old Testament proves
22:51
the New Testament. I mean, it's basically leading up to who Jesus Christ is. And then if you go and
22:58
look at what Jesus did throughout his ministry, you're going to see that in the Old Testament.
23:03
And so that's why, you know, I feel like with the, you know, nowadays, everybody's wanting to move
23:08
away from the Old Testament. Why? Because the Old Testament seems real rough. You know what I'm
23:11
saying? Like, oh, God would never do that. It's like, God did do it. So you're saying there are
23:15
people that would suggest that we un-hitch the Old Testament. I've been waiting to pull off
23:25
this bandaid. So because here's the thing, the new guy here, you know, he's only the second one.
23:29
So Derek here, he's a fan of Andy Stanley still to this day. We still love him. And the funny
23:34
thing about that is like you and I bonded over Andy Stanley and a lot of his ministry and a lot
23:38
of his writings for years and years and years, but it was around the time of the un-hitch controversy,
23:43
which for guys like, just go and Google it. I don't have time to really belabor it here.
23:46
But basically he made a statement that in order for us to convince people that the gospel is true,
23:52
we need to un-hitch the New Testament from the Old Testament because of all the problematic
23:55
things in the Old Testament. And the way he described that's exactly what he said.
23:59
Can you let me set it up? This is microphone one. Okay, so I'm going to go ahead and describe it.
24:04
No, no, dude, that's almost that. That is about as generous of a description.
24:08
I mean, he said the word un-hitch. I'll give you your, I'll give you your moment in the sun here,
24:12
but let me go in and set up the rest of this. And so he says that. And then, notably, everyone
24:17
except for relevant mad at magazine was mad at him for saying that. But then he doubles down
24:22
in every interview after that. He doubled down in a debate against Jeff Durbin on the unbelievable
24:28
podcast over in the UK. And then he writes a book basically arguing that we need to un-hitch
24:32
the Old Testament from the New Testament. Now, I gave him about as much benefit of the doubt
24:37
because I respected him in his ministry and it had done so much to help me grow as a Christian
24:41
for so many years. What he could have said, and I feel like it would have been very,
24:44
very easy to say. And maybe it was pride that kept him from doing it or something like that to say,
24:47
like, look, all of our faith starts with the resurrection. It's just like what I said with,
24:53
you know, Galatians two, it's like, you know, if the law helps us be righteous, then, you know,
24:57
then Christ died for nothing. So if we start there and then use that as a lens through which
25:03
to read the rest of the New Testament and the entirety of the Old Testament, as Ryan said earlier,
25:07
that this all is one big story. That's not about us. It's actually about Jesus.
25:12
But he never said that. He wouldn't just say that. I think he literally meant,
25:16
we don't really need the Old Testament anymore because he never, I got to give, I got to give
25:19
this to Derek here. I just want to say what you said it. He won't talk about the Old Testament
25:24
because that's not what's going to bring more people into his church. That potentially is true.
25:29
So, Derek. Okay. So Andy Stanley and I pastor Andy Stanley out of Atlanta. We're not best buds.
25:34
We're not on texting terms. We're not friends. So, but I will say his teaching oftentimes,
25:41
his teaching does appeal to me because it's more intellectual base than it is feels based.
25:46
Sure. A pastor who tries to get me to feel emotional so I could draw it like,
25:50
but Andy lays it out in a way that's logical. Same. I would say, to your setup, I feel like,
25:57
so have you read irresistible? I'm not. Okay. So if you read the book, I have read the book,
26:02
and in the book, he actually says that exact same thing. I think the concept of unhitching,
26:09
yeah, that's a dangerous term, right? I understand. It's holy scripture. We talk, I just talked five
26:14
seconds ago about the inheritance of scripture. It's all perfect. It's all it. And he would also,
26:18
in his book, irresistible, he also says the same thing that it is inherent. It is perfect.
26:26
But his point is, to your exact thing, if we were going to start a nonbeliever, we would start them
26:34
in the gospels and start in the new covenant, because that is the covenant that is the law
26:39
that applies to us today, not start them in Exodus and Deuteronomy and the Mosaic law,
26:44
because that law does not apply to us. It doesn't mean it's not relevant. It does not mean it's not
26:50
important, does not mean that it is not that you shouldn't teach out of it. You shouldn't
26:57
understand. And Ryan, to your point, he does teach quite often out of the Old Testament.
27:01
Well, here's my thing, though, if you were talking about the Old Testament and you want to bring
27:05
somebody to the grace of God through what Christ has done, isn't that the point of the law to show
27:12
your depravity? Absolutely. And if you're afraid to show a person there depravity so they can find
27:19
what they need through Christ, I have a little bit of an issue with that because I feel like,
27:23
I mean, like, I feel like that's just like, hey, I just want to find the most nicest way to tell
27:28
you you need Jesus, rather than telling you you're a sinful person, like, Ray Comfort, when I was
27:32
a kid, I used to watch the Ray Comfort way of the, I can't remember what it was, but it was with
27:37
Kurt Cameron. I loved growing pains. And so I'd watch stuff with Kurt Cameron. I was like,
27:40
that Ray Comfort guy, he's a jerk. I was like, that guy's a jerk. You see how he's talking these
27:45
people? But no, he's showing them their level of depravity and why they need a Savior. And if you're
27:50
afraid to do that and you want to use the way of saying, we need to un-hitch that, I have issue
27:57
with it. Okay, but un-hitch, like, have you read a resistible? No, I mean, so there's other things
28:03
we could go into. I agree, but I would say, I agree. But if you actually read the book that he,
28:09
in your words, Kyle, doubled down on, you will actually find those statements that you guys said
28:15
he should use are actually in the book. One, without the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus
28:21
Christ, our faith means nothing. And that's where our, that's where our faith begins,
28:25
is at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. But why? How do we know that? Well, he absolutely says,
28:31
because of what he calls the Hebrew Bible, which is the Old Testament. And so he's saying it is
28:35
very important. When he says un-hitch, this is my understanding. I'm not an Andy Stanley expert,
28:40
but when he says un-hitch, he does not mean read, like, take all the Bibles and cut out pages one
28:46
through 683, right? That's not what he's saying. He's saying, look, if you look at our faith,
28:52
so many, his, that whole irresistible was actually focused on pastors who don't focus on Galatians,
29:00
because so many pastors, and we've talked about this when we went through Galatians,
29:04
talk about it is faith plus this, it is faith plus that. But Andy Stanley's book of irresistible
29:10
is basically the book of Galatians saying, look, it's the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus,
29:14
and it's faith in that, that all matters. Yes, the Old Testament points us towards sin,
29:19
and it makes us look in the mirror. And that is the basis of our relationship with Christ.
29:24
But now it's not about the law, because if you keep one law, you keep the whole law.
29:29
Right. Well, let me ask you this, because to be fair, obviously, you're the only one at this
29:32
table unless you've read that book. Okay, so you're the only one at this table that has read that.
29:35
So obviously you are the subject matter expert on that book. My question is, is one of the reasons
29:40
why I liked and respected Stanley for so long was, yes, he appealed to the intellectual side and
29:46
not the emotional side. But the clarity with which he communicated about every issue was astonishing
29:51
to me. Like he did a series, I forget how many years ago would have been 2016, 2017, I think
29:55
it was called the nuns or something like that, or he was talking about the nuns. It was like
29:58
six weeks about, you know, and that was the first time I'd ever heard the term nuns about
30:02
people that are not affiliated. You know, they're they don't consider themselves atheist or agnostic
30:06
or Christian or Buddhist, they're just they're nothing in particular. They could give a crap about
30:10
anything in the interstellar, ethereal realm or something like that. What was astonishing to me,
30:15
and I'm just going to take take you what you set a face value and say that it's true.
30:18
How could he not communicate that clearly from the pulpit when he had that that's that sermon
30:24
series was five or six weeks long. So I've got to go buy his book and read it to get him to say
30:29
that, to get him to say that, hey, you know, not only is the scripture an errant and sufficient to
30:34
explain everything, but we don't need one part of the Bible more than the other. We need the totality
30:39
of God's words, because that's one thing I've tried to break myself of saying, it's not the Bible says,
30:43
it's God says through the Bible, or God says through Paul in scripture, or God says through Luke and
30:47
scripture, something like that. So I guess that's the thing for me because, and we'll talk about this
30:51
more when we get into first Timothy two, like seeing the some of the stuff he said subsequently,
30:55
like I think Trump kind of broke a lot of pastors brains and some of the things that they're saying
30:59
and some of the things that they're operating in. Why was that so hard to say from the pulpit?
31:03
Why was that not? Why was that so hard to say in the subsequent interviews and the debates and
31:07
all the things that he did? Like, I shouldn't have to buy your book to get that you should lead with
31:11
that. No, I agree. I can't I can't disagree with that. Yeah. And then if he leads with scripture and he
31:16
and he believes it's a totality, a totality of the Old Testament, like how come in future sermons,
31:22
he he doesn't like hold to that caliber. You know, I mean, we've talked about other sermons that
31:27
they've done in the past, he's done in the past and which I agree with you on the right. I mean,
31:31
that's just my issue with him. I just feel like that's why my issue with the seeker
31:35
sensitive church is like they're just trying to find the easiest way to bring people in and
31:40
do numbers, and they're not discipling these people. And when it comes to church discipline,
31:45
they're not disciplining them. That the way that they should, they're letting them live the lives
31:50
that they've already lived. There is real no change. There really isn't a change. You know,
31:55
and that's that's I think that's a problem that we're seeing in the modern church.
32:00
Yeah, sure. You know, a steeple doesn't make the church, you know, the doctrine
32:04
exe church, you know, it's a and we've talked. That's a dirty word.
32:07
Yeah, don't you talk. I always love the pastors that are like,
32:11
this is greater than doctrine. It's usually like love or something like that. It's like,
32:14
hey, let's squish. Let's do something. Let's do some attribute of God that I'm going to idolize
32:19
over the others, you know, and then say it's better than doctrine. Yeah, sure. I was thinking like,
32:23
you know, an even an axe and just says, what do they do? They they had doctrine, they had prayer,
32:29
they broke bread and they had fellowship. And it was a way we're thinking about like,
32:33
you're looking for a healthy church. I mean, it starts with the doctrine, but then you should
32:37
also see these outworkings as well. You know, you should see the the worship inside, but you should
32:43
see the works out on the outside as well. I agree. And I think one thing like, I grew up in a very
32:49
prosperity gospel type home. And one of the things that you know, I always heard from family members
32:54
is like, look how God's blessing that church. Well, how's you know, like Joel's team? How's he
32:58
blessing Joel's team's church with a bunch of money and a bunch of people? Is that truly the
33:02
blessing? You know what I'm saying? Because I don't feel like that's the blessing. You know,
33:06
there's certainly more to be said there with that. I think it all comes back to what we were
33:10
talking about with verse seven is desiring to be teachers, the law without understanding either
33:15
what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. And I think that
33:20
we could all come up with our list of of pastors that we think have gone into this territory,
33:24
whether they're pastors that we liked at one point or that we never liked or something like that.
33:28
But I think the overall point on this first part before we move on to to the last part of first
33:33
Timothy, first Timothy one is the Bible has to be our standard by which we differentiate between
33:40
good and evil, but also truth. And if we believe scripture and we believe what's revealed in
33:46
scripture, we also need to believe that the Holy Spirit will help us understand the scriptures.
33:51
And so for me, as we talked about a lot, you know, that's why I ask everybody, like,
33:54
how do you come a Christian? Like, you know, how do you like study the Bible? And how does your
33:57
brain work? I want to read it as quickly as possible. I want to consume it as quickly as possible.
34:02
And then I'm going to regurgitate it in a way that it's valuable for everybody else.
34:05
That's why I listen to podcast at two times speed. That's why I literally listen to thousands of
34:08
podcasts a year. You know, last year I read over 50 books, which is which is a new record,
34:12
because I want to distill all that down into the 10 bullet points that you need to do this
34:17
particular part of your life better. But I will tell you like I get just like a lot of you and
34:22
maybe this will be a shock to you. It shouldn't be like I get so frustrated with certain parts of
34:26
the Bible where I'm like, man, am I too dumb to understand this? Like, I remember when I read
34:30
Carl Truman's book last year, I forgot the name of that one too. So here that tonight's
34:34
tonight where I forget the name of all books, but you guys know which one I'm talking about because
34:37
we had him on the show to talk about it. The rise and triumph of the modern self. But that
34:41
that book, like whenever I was done reading it, I'm like, am I, I think I got dumber.
34:45
It's like, I'm not, I don't think I was smart enough to read it. And I think I'm dumber on the
34:48
back end because it was way, I was like, I was taking too big of bites. But if you believe that
34:54
the Holy Spirit can actually work through you, you will, you will understand things, but you've
34:59
got to do the work. Sorry, Calvinist, but you've, you've got to actually do something. You have
35:03
to keep coming to the word. You have to keep going. And you have to keep searching for answers.
35:07
Maybe that's, they're going to commentaries. That's maybe through, you know, forging your
35:10
own forging table where you're talking to people and saying, Hey, I don't quite understand this.
35:14
I need a little bit of help here. Yeah, I, you know, there are a member, a good friend of mine.
35:19
And I'll, I'll say a couple of things here, but he spent 60 years memorizing versus
35:29
he must have had 60, 70% of the Bible memorized. And he could just get up there and quote
35:35
verses and you know, people would be like, well, how many verses do you know, you know, Mr. Crawford?
35:41
And he said, you know, I could tell you, but that's not what matters. He's like, it's not how many
35:47
verses I know it's how many of those verses know me. And one of the things I know, I feel you on
35:56
this whole like, am I too stupid to understand that? I mean, the Holy Spirit reveals things to me
36:01
through the scripture when the Holy Spirit is ready to reveal those things to me. And it may be
36:07
situational or whatever I may have read a million times, but it's maybe it's just the right time,
36:12
you know, and I feel like we are meant to spend our entire life reading and meditating, meditating,
36:19
you know, that taking that time to ruminate and chew on regurgitate and suck it back down again.
36:26
And she wanted some more and in order to get some of those nuggets, a few nuggets, you know.
36:31
Yeah, I think there's there's a lot there to get into. But as we we get into the latter part of
36:38
the first after first Timothy, I, you know, and we can go back if you guys see some other things.
36:42
But in verses, you know, 12 through 17, we see we basically see Paul being very humble
36:47
throughout this entire period, he calls himself an insolent opponent, a, you know, a blasphemer,
36:51
a persecutor, you know, saying he was the foremost of the the sinners against Christ Jesus. And so,
36:56
you know, I like the fact that he doesn't take it easy on himself. And I think to a degree,
37:00
some people would maybe quibble or quibble with this is that's for the people that have been
37:05
following the forging table for a while. But verses 12 through 17, somebody maybe a psychologist,
37:11
clinical psychologist or a therapist or a counselor might be like, Oh man, that's some really bad
37:16
self talk there. Like that's not really good because I tell people all the time, I think shame is a
37:20
tremendous motivate motivator. I think we don't use shame enough as a motivator. I think if you
37:24
make bad decisions, you should be shamed for it because it's the shame that you feel that will
37:28
keep you from making those bad decisions in the future. That's how a lot of people are wired.
37:32
But in here, his his self talk is so unbelievably negative in terms of how we see it in the world.
37:38
But in terms of good theology, you want to talk about good theology? He doesn't say,
37:42
man, I used to be a bad guy, but gosh, I'm crushing it now. Like you should see all the great things
37:47
I've been doing. Have you seen some of these letters I've been sending around? Bro, like Timothy,
37:51
like, come on, like you want to touch me the next time we're in the same room? Because I'm awesome.
37:55
No, he leaves no room for that. So I really, really appreciate that section. But moving into
37:59
verses 18 and part of 19, this charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child in accordance with the
38:05
prophecies previously made about you that by them, you may wage the good warfare, holding faith
38:11
and a good conscience. And so some, some different, oh gosh, what's the word like different translations?
38:19
They'll say fighting the good fight. So if you've ever used that phraseology before,
38:23
you know, fight the good fight, this is where it comes from. It comes from the first letter
38:26
of from Paul to Timothy, but wage the good warfare. I love that I highlighted it. I underlined it.
38:33
Like wage the good warfare because basically what he's saying here to Timothy is persevere for the
38:38
sake of the gospel. Like that's why you're doing this, but do it with integrity. So there are times
38:44
when you can persevere. And when you look behind you, it's wreckage, right? And so like, you know,
38:50
we talked about personalities, tests on on the last, on last week, it's like every personality
38:54
test I've ever taken, whatever aggressive animal is that tramples all the other animals. That's the
38:58
animal I am. So I'm the rhino, like I'm the hippopotamus or whatever the thing is. And there are times
39:04
when you just need to burn it, you know, burn it down and walk away and kind of let someone
39:07
else deal with the ashes. Like I told y'all, when I get asked to come speak to other people's
39:10
churches, like, look, I don't live here. And I tell the pastors beforehand, it's like, I'm
39:13
going to burn this thing down and walk it away. Y'all better have a plan for the ashes. Because,
39:16
you're gonna have to pay me to have me come back. Like, so like, let's make sure that we got a plan
39:21
in place. But making sure that you're not just fighting war for war's sake, you're doing it for
39:27
the sake of the gospel, but you are doing it with integrity. Because when you fight wars with
39:31
integrity, that's the difference between how the United States wages war and how a country like
39:35
Russia wages war, like we're trying to put a bomb in a window, they're trying to put a bomb
39:39
in a grid on a map. And so, you know, a lot, and again, you could, you could extrapolate that out
39:43
to a lot of, you know, atrocities that Americans have done, but I'm just using it as in terms of
39:47
broad strokes, it's going to affect how you fight. So I think that's a really important point that
39:51
is made here by Paul. Well, and this is a, this is a Paul Timothy relationship is that mentoring
39:56
relationship that we've been talking about here. And if, if Timothy's going into war, you know,
40:02
he's got to be prepared. And so part of what Paul has been doing through his mentorship is
40:08
preparing him or war, because nobody's just going to go into war willy-nilly kind of like what you
40:12
were alluding to. You're going to go into it, hopefully with a plan and a strategy, you know,
40:18
and, and, and with, with the right equipment and weapons. But you're also going to go into it with
40:25
the right heart, you know, it's like we've been going back and forth about Andy Stanley, you know,
40:29
I'm not trying to one up Andy Stanley. I'm not trying to bring Andy Stanley down. I want Andy
40:34
Stanley, you know, I want to see his people grow. I want to see his ministry grow in the right way.
40:39
Same with Joel Osteen, the same with, you know, anybody who might have an issue with somebody.
40:44
I want to, if I say something, I need to come with a heart of, hey, you know, I want to see
40:49
God work through this, not just, hey, man, I want to go and make something funny on Facebook or have
40:54
a quip on Twitter and just tear the whole thing down. You know what I'm saying? It's like, you got
40:59
to have your heart ready for that. You know, where's your heart at when you're going to war against,
41:04
you know, he's basically going to war against fellow believers. And that's, that's got to be
41:09
tougher than going to war with the world. So I got a one or two. Why did he use the language of warfare
41:15
in this letter? And I didn't have this thought until you were talking, Eric, where it's like,
41:20
does obviously Paul knows Timothy better than anybody else at this table knows Timothy.
41:24
Does Paul think that Timothy might be a little bit soft? He's younger. Yeah. So so he's young.
41:29
He's young and he's unproven. You know, at this time, like, I think there's relative peace in the
41:34
region. So we can't assume that, you know, Timothy was a soldier at some point or something like that.
41:38
It there, there seems like there's some intentionality between how he words this, especially as we
41:42
continue working through first Timothy. It's almost like he's trying to say like, Hey, bro,
41:46
you need to guard your loins. Like it's, it's time to go to war. And I don't mean, you know,
41:50
with fists and elbows and swords and chain mail, like, I mean, we're going to war in the spiritual
41:55
realms here. And if you're not ready for it, you're going to burn up, son.
41:57
Well, if you look at how Paul sets up his churches, he sets it up with an elder board.
42:01
And usually that elder board is filled with, you know, older men. That's just as dirty as the
42:05
word doctor. And how dare we talk about elders? God, elders. So judgy. But no, like, he's going
42:12
up against, you know, older men, you know, and he's a young guy, you know, he's still probably
42:17
young in his faith at this point, you know, and so, you know, he's got he's got to be ready to go
42:22
to battle for the truth. Because, you know, that's, that's God put him in that place. It's just like
42:28
he's Gideon, you know, and he's feeble and he's young and he's going up against some lions and
42:34
he's got to be ready. So when I look at this, again, I agree, Kyle, like why is he using the word
42:41
for the verbiage of war? And you look back at Paul's life and you almost think, well, sure, it would
42:48
feel like war to Paul based on the circumstances that he went through, the situations that he went
42:53
through. And I think he wants Timothy, or I'm interpreting this as him wanting Timothy to take
42:58
understanding the calling that's upon him and understand the seriousness of it and how extreme
43:03
it can be. And also you look at warfare as how long until the war is won, right? And so, hey,
43:11
this is not a quick battle. You're not going to be in and out situations, Ryan, like you were
43:14
talking about setting up a church and putting an elder board. And then you have false believers
43:18
who come in and move and and try and steer that church or everybody's trying to take back
43:23
the bride of Christ, which is the church. No, no, no, this is war. And so you have to focus
43:29
and approach it with that intensity and that expectation that it could take as long as it takes.
43:33
And Timothy's like, he's setting up this church for Paul. And I heard a story from Paul Washer,
43:40
I love Paul Washer. And he was talking about how he had some big guys. He goes, these were big guys
43:45
that came into my church and said, Hey, we're prophets. You know, and we want to talk to your
43:50
congregation. You know, and he's like, Hey, that's great. We've never had prophets come in before.
43:54
You know, he's a sensationalist like I am, you know, but you know, he wanted to set something
43:59
apart. He's like, you know what, you guys are welcome to come and talk to my congregation.
44:02
You know, but I'm going to need you to be here for about six, six months to a year. Let me see
44:07
what fruit you guys bear and what your teaching looks like and how you guys are. And then I'll
44:12
let you up on stage to talk to my congregation. They did not like, you know, and so that's what
44:18
he's going into. He's now rebuilding this church and Ephesus. You know, he's pulling some people
44:24
out. I think it was who it was, uh, Alexander and Hymenius, whom he all handed over to Satan
44:31
to be taught not to blaspheme. You know, and so, I mean, there's two guys you're gonna have to
44:34
pull out right there. You know, but like if I, you know, like, I think that's what we're looking
44:38
for in church leadership. It's like if one of these guys falls, rather than the church try to cover
44:44
their wounds, pull them right out, you know, pull them out and find something and change that,
44:49
you know, and let those guys rebuild. You know what I'm saying? But I think people are going to find
44:54
more. They're going to believe more in what you teach biblically. If you can call it out where you
45:00
see it, you know, yeah. So yeah, and I was just thinking, and this may be totally off, but I was
45:05
just wondering if, you know, that when all the Jews were looking for a king to come in and overthrow
45:12
the Romans and all that and set up, you know, the kingdom and all of that sort of thing. So I wonder
45:17
if that's not a summit, somewhat a play off of that. Because now you have the gospel, you know,
45:22
Jesus came, he died, he resurrected. Now we have the gospel and the Holy Spirit waging,
45:27
waging battle. So it doesn't look like what the Jews thought it would look like, but it's still
45:33
war. Yeah. Right. Which led me, I mean, I took a note there about, hey, this looks like and is
45:39
evidence of Paul referencing to me spiritual warfare, right? That, hey, there is, there is a
45:46
spiritual realm that we don't see with our earthly eyes. And it even alludes to it there at the last
45:53
verse of chapter one. Ryan, you mentioned this, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not
45:59
to blaspheme. Yeah. What does that mean? He let them over to their own deeds, you know, he let
46:05
Satan take over what night until they learn. Yeah, absolutely, Ryan. And I think, Eric,
46:10
to your point, and really to the point that all of us are making about this section,
46:12
I want us to keep, I want us to keep this part in mind as we go into the second chapter of First
46:18
Timothy, because wage the good warfare and most, most commentaries and most biblical scholars would
46:24
say like, Hey, he's wanting you to wage war against the people that are going to be enemies of the
46:28
gospel. And it's how do we do that? Because some people think that's with actual fists and actual
46:33
things like that. There are some people that think that means, Hey, we want to hold a bunch of signs
46:37
up outside of these people's businesses or establishments or something like that. And that's how we get
46:40
our voice heard. Some people would say, Hey, it's going to be legislation that we, we, you know,
46:44
we get people in the office and then, you know, they treat things in this particular way. Some
46:48
people are going to get into a discussion of fear, fear sovereignty. And you know, Hey, this is what,
46:52
you know, Romans 13 actually means and those types of things. So I want us to keep that in mind. And
46:56
that made that's probably a good place to leave First Timothy one unless somebody's got it. Someone
46:59
else, something else to come in here because I think First Timothy two, it's one of the shortest
47:04
chapters in terms of how they've broken up chapters. But there's so much there. So guys, I want to make
47:10
sure that, you know, even though we're going to have to leave First Timothy one here, spend some time
47:15
really digging into First Timothy two. And I want you to keep that wage a good wage, the good warfare
47:21
or fight the good fight. I want you to keep that in mind when you read the very first few
47:25
verses of chapter two, because I think that's going to make a big bit of difference. So again,
47:29
guys, come back next Sunday where we'll dig into First Timothy to make sure that you read that so
47:32
you are prepared for next week. Before we let you guys go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost
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