Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, Stephen Presfield. Welcome back to the show. You know, I would do my normal intro outro where I would say, "Hey, here's this guy and here's the books he's uh written. Here's the stuff he's done." But this is technically your fourth appearance on the show. It's not technically, it's literally your fourth appearance on the show. >> But here we are. This is episode like 920 something. You were last on episode 333. >> Wow. >> So, where you been hiding? I don't know what what's been going on. Why don't you want to come and hang out with me anymore? >> I don't know what happened, but I'm sorry I missed you. No, it's all good. >> We won't let that happen again. >> It will not happen again. Uh you're a very prolific writer. You're very busy, but u on a little bit of a sour note uh uh to start off with, but there is something that I wanted to talk to you about. You've talked about it openly because I think it might be helpful for the people in my audience, but uh you actually lost your house unfortunately uh last year in those uh those fires that hit the state of California. We now know that it was a an arsonist that that started that fire and it led to just >> thousands of homes uh being damaged or totally taken away. Just uh billions of dollars uh worth of damage and all of that. And unfortunately, you lost your home that you lived in for a very very long time because of the the wildfire fires there. Um, so I just want to kind of give you a chance to talk a little bit about that because you've been spartan about the whole whole ordeal, which is not shouldn't be a shock to anyone that uh reads your writings or is a fan of your work, but my gosh, that's just something most of us have never had to walk through. And so just want to talk about your experience and being about a year removed from from having to start that process, what what it's been like for you. >> You know, it's been uh it's been a lot harder than I thought it would be, Kyle. You know, I thought like immediately after it happened, uh, people asked, "What are you going to do?" I said to me, "Oh, we're going to rebuild. No problem. We're going to you, you know," but, um, it's been much harder than like we still don't have a permit. >> As far as I know, in our our house was in Malibu, not the Palisades thing. And uh I think there's there's only been like one rebuild started in the whole city because of bureaucracy and permits and all that horrible stuff, you know. >> So that's been a really, you know, trying situation. On the other hand, we we're renting a nice little house on a nice street and I'm able to work and Diana's able to work, you know, so that's kind of what's what's been holding us together. And um you know maybe in a month or two we're going to reach a point where we'll get a price from uh our contractor and then we'll we'll see if we can if we can afford to rebuild. Um I will say one thing. I I don't want to talk too long about this but because it's you know not much fun to talk about but >> the whole town of Malibu is not going to come back for years. I mean along, you know, it's basically Pacific Coast Highway and along Pacific Coast Highway for miles is just complete devastation. >> Yeah. >> Even still. And so it's, you know, the the place, you know, it's like a war zone out there and it hasn't gotten much better in maybe a year and three or four months. So, we'll see. It's going to be a long time before it comes back, if it ever comes back. Well, and you >> Thanks for asking. >> Yeah. Well, and and the thing I'm most curious about is because obviously for anyone that's read uh the war of art, you're you're very just Hey, yeah, you might be an artist. You might be high in trade openness, but you got to work. You got to go to a place and you got to actually put pen to paper. You got to actually put fingertips to typewriter. You got to do whatever you got to do. And your house in a lot of ways, I think I've heard you describe it as it was like a creative haven for you. And for somebody that is so diligent in their craft, which for you is, you know, crafting narratives, crafting stories, you know, losing that, you know, you you you mentioned in the new place, you're you're able to work. And I'm just curious for you getting to that place creatively where you had a haven for so long. How have you found kind of new avenues to continue the forward momentum that you've created over all these decades? It >> it's it's really been the thing that's saved me, you know? Well, I mean, the fortunate thing about about writing is really all you need is one of these. >> Yeah. >> You know, and you can set it up in the kitchen somewhere on a little on a table and and work. And fortunately, it's been it's been okay. You know, the goddess is still around. Uh ideas are still flowing. And uh so it's been it's been portable. It's been it's been fine. It's really been the thing that's held us both Diana and me together. >> Well, >> being able to work. Yeah, for sure. And I think that just points to the fact that we were created with a purpose. And you know, some people get this idea that, okay, if you know, if you believe in the story of Adam and Eve, as I do, that you know, work is like a punishment, right? Eve ate the apple, now we have to work. It's like, no, no, no. Work was in the garden before sin was. And so, it's like we were built for work. We were built for a purpose, which is why I'm nervous about AI and, you know, universal basic income. It's like people have to have something to do. They have to have something to build. Uh, but I I do want to get into a few questions since you haven't been on in a while uh before we get to your newest release just about writing the writing process because you're a very prolific fiction writer, but you've also written non-fiction. And from somebody who's not written in in that type of a way, it's almost like you're using two different sets of muscles uh even though you're still doing quote unquote macro writing, right? And so for you, how do you approach fiction versus non-fiction? Uh, it's a great question. Um, non-fiction, at least for me, is mostly my books like The War of Art that are kind of about the craft of writing. So, they're a lot easier in the sense that I kind of know what I, you know, that I know what the material is. It's just a question of organizing it in the best form for the reader. You know, how do we start? What's the middle? What's the end? But fiction is a whole other animal because you know it'll take two years, two and a half years to uh to tell a story and a lot of things change. It's a living thing you're working with. >> You know, a character might pop up and all of a sudden, you know, you hadn't even thought about that character. Now it's like a big character in the story. So you have to be much more much more flexible and there's a lot more self-doubt in fiction. That's you know the mental aspect of of asking yourself constantly is this idea any good? Am I good enough to do it? You know this self-doubt is uh you know that's the real challenge emotionally in fiction. Whereas in non-fiction you pretty much know okay this is what it's going to be. I just have to do it the best I can. >> Well, gosh, at some point, even if you're writing fiction, you have to put the narrative in your brain, the story in your brain onto the paper or the screen, and then you got to send it out there, and then the marketplace tells you whether or not it's a crappy idea, whether or not it's even exciting and all of that. And so, even just I'm curious to bring a couple of strains together. So, the war of art, you know, being a professional, how you approach the process of writing, like tie that in. Let's just use fiction because we're going to be talking about one of your fiction works mainly today. So, when you approach a story, when you approach a narrative, and then at some point you get stuck, where that self-doubt turns into, "No, this just isn't good or this just isn't uh as exciting or created as much tension as I would have wanted." Like, what do you do? Cuz I've heard everything, Stephen. I've heard, "I scrapped it and started over. I've heard I went super into the rewrite process. I went into the," hey, no big deal. We're writing a first draft here. Write the whole first draft and then we can start picking it apart from there. How do you approach that? >> Well, I definitely just want in the first draft just to get something down from page one to the end, good, bad, or otherwise. And then then I'll worry about, you know, do I need to move this to here to rethink this or that or the other thing. But but when you do hit a real problem, then that is a problem. that that is, you know, a kind of a horror show, which usually happens, you know, halfway through the process. Um, and then the best thing that you can have is a is a either a friend or an editor that can put fresh eyes on it and help you out. And then it's that is really hard. Then you just got to suck it up. I have definitely had to go back to page one >> and and scrap stuff and totally start again. But a lot of times it's usually there's usually some big element you've left out where you've put you know at the end when it should be at the that at the beginning that kind of thing. So those are the rough times when you're trying to struggle for that breakthrough. But when you finally get it then then it's great. You know, it's like having a a broken arm and it s suddenly you get it set, you know, but that is the definitely the the hard part, the nightmare part of writing fiction. >> Yeah. Or in my my case, a ruptured bicep that eventually gets fixed and then it takes forever to heal. So, there is that. Uh but but I'm curious I'm curious for you, Stephen. So when you read through your novels, um even when you see the on-screen adaptations of some of the things that you've written and and I I do the same thing when I speak uh live or even if I teach Sunday school, I try to introduce tension and then I try to control it throughout my presentation. And so while I'm presenting, I don't want there to be no tension because why are we paying attention if there's no tension? And then I don't want there to be so much tension that you you just got to get out of there. like you need some sort of pressure relief that you can get out. But I do try to ratchet that tension and then eventually get to the release, which is my my main point, or the ending or something like that. You seem to do a really good job of adjusting the tension knob to keep the reader interested, but not so overwhelmed that they're like, I got to put this thing down. I'm getting stressed out. So, how how do you do that? And is that is that a purposeful thing? >> Uh, it is a purposeful thing. And it's for me, it's pretty much instinct. where I know that at the start of the story I'm trying to hook the reader. What you would what you would use the word tension. I would call something I don't know anticipation for what's an open loop a question you know where the reader's thinking >> what's going to happen to soand so right we've we've kind of you start to open a kind of a question that hopefully pulls the reader through and hopefully you've got a number of threads by the time you're maybe um 60 pages into a story hopefully you've got maybe five or six questions that the reader is going, you know, what's going to happen to so and so or I thought that this horse was going to land from outer space and now it got blown up and yet it's back. What's hap? So, I do try to keep that tension going to pull the reader through to the end. But I think it's it's pretty much instinct, Kyle. You know, you don't really you don't really you just have to read it yourself. Read it over yourself and say, "Am I bored yet? Is this still interesting?" You know, that and then you just make that assessment. You hope you're right. >> Yeah, you certainly have to hope you're right. I remember helping a guy who's got a really big, very forward kind of like, you know, angry personality, but in a good way. He's a great guy. I I watched one of his speeches and I was like, "Buddy, from the moment the first word came out of your mouth, you were punching them to death." Like you you you had such a big start and you never calmed down and you never gave anyone a chance to catch their breath to where they were trying to pick up what what you were laying down because it was so forceful to start. so forceful to end and it was a melee in the in the middle and so it's like at some point it's like we we it can't just be flatout action the whole way. There's got to be something else. Um now before we get into your latest work, you know, I'm just curious for most most of your career you've done a lot of writing about warfare. You obviously have a a tremendous interest in warfare, even people that are tangentially attached to warfare like a Telmon who we're going to uh be reintroduced to here in a second. So why do you think you have such a tremendous interest in that as you know a lot of men in my audience share? >> Um because I think that life is a war. Life is a life is a struggle. Life is a battle. I think uh in between our head not just not just with rivals or or counterparts or anything like that. But the reason I called it the war of art is because it's a war between our own tendency to to sabotage ourselves and to, you know, to undercut ourselves and uh and and the drive to go forward. And I think it wasn't like I ever sat down at the start of my writing career and said, "Oh, I want to write about war." That just sort of happened. It becomes a metaphor for me. Um, there's there's an opponent, there's something there's a villain, something that the hero is up against. And and and the metaphor is war. The metaphor is combat. The metaphor is uh and another aspect of this, Kyle, is I feel like the virtues of a creative person, of a writer or an artist, are the same virtues as a warrior. If you think about it, courage, selflessness, the willing embrace of adversity, patience, uh the ability to love your your comrades and bond with your comrades, your allies, and and the ability to love the enemy as well. And it sort of goes on and on. Those those virtues are the same. And I will also say for any women that are in our audience here, they're also the virtues of a mother. courage patience selflessness the willingness to give up yourself for big or for another cause, you know, and and the willing embrace of adversity is another aspect that a mom knows, you know. So, uh it isn't just a male thing, but for me, it does translate, for whatever reason, again, it's kind of beyond my control into stories about war. >> Very good. Well, let's get to your latest release. So, guys, if you're listening to this on time, it is now available. It is called the Arcadian. I'm showing it here on the screen, guys. You can check the link in the show notes to go and pick that up. And so, as I mentioned earlier, we're reintroduced to Telmon, who we got to know in in one of your previous uh interviews and one of your previous writings. But just generically, Stephen, why this book? Why now? Why you? Why another tale of Telm? >> Um, you know, some writers have uh alter ego characters, right? like Ian Fleming had James Bond and Jack Carr has James Reese and so on and so forth and I have one too and it's this solitary mercenary of the ancient world Telmon of Arcadia and um he's been in I guess three books before the Arcadian two as a minor character and then in another one where do I have it here? I can't find it, but >> if you don't, I got a couple copies. Yeah, I got a couple copies on my shelf. Yeah. >> Yeah. And uh he's just a character that uh that I fell in love with. And um in this particular story, the Arcadian, I I'll kind of give your give you an overview here for whatever this is worth, >> please. >> Um Telmon has a problem. And his problem is that for crimes he committed in some previous lifetime as a soldier, as a soldier, you know, fighting and killing, he's been condemned by heaven to live lifetime after lifetime, always as a soldier. So he's always killing and being killed and so on and so forth. and he is in in this new book, The Arcadian, he finally becomes fully aware of this and he wants to his his fondest wish is to get off this wheel of damnation that he's on. And so that's what what this what this story is about is is this Telmon's last life or is it not? Um so that's kind of the gist of of of who this character is. He's sort of like I call him the oneman killing machine of the ancient world. Something like uh the Clint Eastwood character of of a man with no name that wanders, you know, from ordeal to ordeal to ordeal. >> Hey guys, real quick. You've probably heard the phrase ignorance is bliss, right? Well, some of you are ignorant about where the beef that you buy at the grocery store comes from and what it took to get to you. So that single package of grocery store ground beef can contain meat from over 100 different cows, sometimes from multiple countries. And if one of those cows was sick or mishandled in some way, it's mixed right into your dinner. So most people don't realize that some ground beef at the store isn't just beef either. It's scraps and trimmings chemically treated with ammonia to kill bacteria and then blended in to bulk up the weight of what you're buying. It's legal, it's cheap, and it's on the plates of Americans all over the country. usually without the customer ever knowing. 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Again, that's primalbeef.com, promo code kyle to get $25 off your first order. Well, guys, don't worry. We will not have any spoilers, but we are going to dig in to the book, so we're not going to ruin it for anybody. But it's very interesting. One of the things I love about getting stuff from you is because you always write a personal note in there, and you have like a personal flare whenever you you connect with somebody. Uh, so there's a couple of quotes in the be uh before the book begins that you think are very very important. And so, I want to read them here. The first is a short one from Marcus Aurelius. Life is warfare and a journey far from home. And the second quote is from Impeticles. Is that the best way to say it? >> Impedes. Okay. Well, let me read this quote here. >> There is a law of stern uh necessity, the immemorial ordinance of the gods made to fast forever, bravely sworn and sealed. And this is an interesting thing. You actually highlighted this next bit specifically for me. And you said, Kyle, I think you'll enjoy this next little bit. So, I'll read that section here. Should any spirit capital S born to enduring life be fouled with sin of slaughter or transgressed by disputation, perjured and foresworn, three times 10,000 years that soul shall wander and outcast from felicity condemned to mortal being. And then I'll I'll continue the quote here. And in diverse shapes with interchange of hardship go his ways. The heavens force him headlong to the sea and vomited from the sea. dry land receives him by flings him unwanted to the burning sun from there to the heavenly vortex backward throne he makes from host to host by all of horde. So why are those two quotes so you know important to the telling of the Arcadian and then specifically that quote that you highlighted for Mia? I'm curious why why you did that. Um, I think it's it's it's in many ways this is a man's hero's journey kind of encapsulated on a in a on a metaphorical level. Um the the kind of the the short version of that quote is should anyone commit some crime such as a soldier killing someone in in war according to Impeticles three times 10,000 years that soul shall wander an outcast from felicity. In other words you that soul is sort of damned and condemned. And that quote, I came on that that quote, Kyle, 40 years ago >> and I kept it all that time because I knew there was a book in there, but I just couldn't find, you know, the missing link that that would make it brought it to life. And the missing link was this character, Telmont, that I could say, okay, he's the one that's been damned to go through these circles, this this circle of karma, you know, over and over again. Um, but anyway, the reason I highlighted it for you was just not that I thought it necessarily literally applied to you, but you know, your issues are sort of male issues and I do feel that we all are in our own way. I mean, go back, we were just talking about the Garden of Eden right? >> Right. >> You know, God casts Adam and Eve out and he curses them, right? Henceforth shalt thou eat thy bread in the sweat of thy face. Right. Thorns and thistles I shall set before you for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return. So we all are with the doctrine of original sin. Right? We all are kind of one way or another just by the virtue of being mortals. We sort of feel like we need to redeem ourselves somehow. You know I know everybody says oh you should just sit there and just be and you'll be happy. But who can do that? You know, I think we all feel like if we find a calling that we have in the arts or in anything else, I think we feel I speak for myself anyway, we need to do this, perform this calling to the best of our ability and just to justify our existence for one more day on the planet, you know. So, in any event, that's one of the reasons I fell in love with this character of Telmon. And that quote and the quote from Marcus Aurelius that uh uh life is warfare and a journey far from home. I mean, that rings a lot of bells for me. I don't know if it does for you. What What do you Does that ring a bell for you, Kyle? >> Well, so it does. And this is what I what I think because if you look at it in a very black and white, non-nuanced way, okay, life is warfare and a journey far from home. People think physical location, right? So, a farm boy from Iowa in the 1940s was sent to some godforsaken hell hole in Europe to go fight a battle overseas, right? When I think far from home, I think even in your soul because when I talk cuz I was not a warrior. I did not serve in the military. I've never, you know, sworn, you know, that I would protect this country from enemies, foreign and domestic. I never did that. But I have a lot of friends that did and I've talked to a lot of men that have. And there's this distance that they find from their soul when they have to do some of the things they have to do in order to be successful in war, in order to defeat the enemy, in order to come home alive, in order to help someone else come home alive. And so when you talk about a journey far from home, it's like a journey away from themselves. And I'm not trying to be poetic uh for that sense, but it's like you see this uh this dissonance in the mind of a warrior of who they are and what they had to do. And then when they come home, it's who they were and who they could even be now, right? Some of them feel like they're not even worthy of a polite, peaceful society because of what they've seen. Some men stop believing in good because of how much evil they've seen. So, I don't want to belabor it any further than that. But when I read that short quote from Marcus Aurelius, and as dense as Aurelius is, I doubt he was talking about geography when he talked about a journey far from home. But that's just a guess. No, >> I'm I'm with you completely. And when I think of that, I think of home as wherever our soul resides. >> You know, you can say that uh you know, where was our soul before we were born? Where is it going to be after we die? And to me, that's kind of that's home. And we're on a journey here on this material plane. In my view anyway, far from that. We remember it, you know, and but we are outcasts from it. >> Yeah. Certainly. And that's that's what I tell people, you know, when they when you suffer trials of this world, you know, realize especially like as if you're a Christ follower, it's like, okay, even our Christ said that you are going to suffer because of me. Like because you believe and purport to believe the things that you believe, society is not going to like you very much. And you weren't built for this world. So it's like, hey, you're a fish trying to survive on the beach. And it's like eventually you will be in my ocean. You'll be able to swim freely. So uh but but even uh kind of getting out of the world of the ethereal and getting down to the brass tax of it. uh you have a you have a note uh before the book if I'm I'm just going from memory where you're like hey this is not a historical retelling of an exact thing that happened like these are this is a fictional story but obviously there's a lot of real world facts that are that are interspersed throughout your writing and there's even real world people that actually existed in in in history or in antiquity um and so I'm just curious for you how much do you as you're writing a story how much do you feel a need to be like okay I need if I'm going to talk out an ismas somewhere in the world. It's got to be one that actually exists versus like, hey, I can I can kind of have some poetic license here. >> Uh, you know, if you're if you're writing Game of Thrones, let's say, >> and you're creating this whole world of Westeros and all that, then you can make things up completely, right? >> It just has to be vaguely like England, whatever. But if you're setting it in, you know, in a era of the Roman Empire or in in the case of of the Arcadian, it's set in in Spain around the time of the discovery of the new world. >> Then you you really you got to be truthful to stuff. And but let me go let me back up a little bit, Kyle. Like in a story like this, I'm going to ask the reader to believe in some supernatural things, right? I'm going to have him believe that a horse came from 1500 years ago and reappeared in this, you know, for some, right? >> So, in order to make the reader believe that, because I I think the reader wants to believe because that's the story, right? You want to get swept up in it. When it comes to true life details like geographic details, if there's a river here, there's a mountain here, or what type of weaponry, what type of armor, what type of clothing be, then that's got to be really accurate because if if you can say if you can kind of layer detail on detail on detail and the reader goes and each one goes, "Oh, that's that's true. >> Oh, that's the kind of guns they had. Oh, that's true. That's what then finally when I say to them, oh, and this horse flew 1500 years AC, then hopefully the reader will will buy that, you know. So, that to me is sort of the real function of historical detail to sell a bigger story. >> Well, and our mutual friend Jack Carr uh does that quite a bit in his novels and his thrillers and even when he wrote that Yeah. And when he wrote Cry Havoc, you know, set during the Vietnam War, he said the process took him way longer than he or the publisher thought because he wanted to make sure all the details were correct. And look, details can be very distracting. So, one of my favorite movies is The Green Mile. And one of the reasons why I wanted it's one of my favorite movies is cuz it's one of my mom's favorite books. And when Stephen King wrote that is it was like it was six novels that were being released kind of like in sequence and he was writing it as the previous one was being released. And so he's Oh, really? Yeah. He had just finished the second, you know, the second of what ended up being six novels in the same story. And people were like, "Well, what's going to happen to to John Coffee or to, you know, this particular character?" And he's like, "I have no idea. I'm figuring it out as I go." But when you fast forward to the movie starring Tom Hanks, you know, there there's a song he's sitting down, you know, listening to the radio and they changed the timeline from the books from 1932 to 1935, I think it was. And one of the songs I was playing was from like 1938. It wasn't released until 38. And people ARE LIKE, "AH, MAN. I'M" And then they're distracted for the next hour because they're like, "How did they mess that up?" And so I'm with you. You kind of have to give, you know, you have to suspend belief sometimes, but every now and then you got to get the nuts and bolts right. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. In fact, all the time you got to get the nuts and bolts right because people do love to find that. You know, they love to in a cowboy movie they see a telephone pole, they go, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute." >> Yeah. >> That's right. Well, so so and I I I appreciate your attention to detail and I I'm just curious earlier because you mentioned kind of alter egos for different characters and different writers and things like that and for you it's Telmon. And so I'm just wondering how much cuz I asked Jack the same thing. I'm like, "Hey Jack, how much of you is James Reese?" And how much of you is or how much of James Ree is your aspirational identity? Like if you didn't have bills or a wife or kids to take care of, like how much of you would just really want to be James Reese? So for you like how how much are you Telmon and you know is that kind of like an aspirational identity that if you didn't have to if you didn't suffer the trappings of this world is that who you would want to you know try to be >> it was definitely and is very definitely an aspirational identity. Okay. >> It's like he can do the things that I wish I could do but I know I I can't do and he can push things to to the limit that I'm I'm not I know I'm not going to do that. In fact, there's another character in in the Arcadian called the bookman, >> and he's this kind of colorful character that's selling books and carry carrying them on on his shoulders and stuff like that. And that's the character that's really like me. But, but Telon is kind of an alter ego that uh that can do the stuff that I wish I could do, but I really can't. Well, let's talk about Telmon because apparently if he's like you, he wants you want to be cursed just like he is because that's a theme that you've talked about at the beginning and there's a short quote that's that's very telling about the nature of the character and it's from the book. It says, "I fear this man the girl declared for her mother. He carries devils." And so obviously if you are carrying devils I think a lot of people would consider that to be a curse. But I guess guess for you with that kind of being the scaffolding for this character and the the motivating factor behind a lot of the things that he does, he has to have personal awareness of perhaps his own cursing, I guess you could say. Why even bring something like that into a story like this? Because I love it because it adds that almost that spiritual dimension that, you know, whatever the tearing down of the fourth wall or something like that dimension. But you could have got away uh with telling it just like this was a guy that didn't have a a tremendously transcendent backstory. And so why really focus in on him as a character that is carrying a curse? >> You know, it's funny. I'll just kind of give you the sort of the long version of the way the character of Telmon evolved here. Um, in uh one of my my third book, Tides of War, which was set in ancient Greece, the war between Athens and Sparta, Telmon first appeared and he's an assassin, >> and he was a minor character, but but a but a formidable character, and I just sort of I liked him. I liked his attitude, but I never thought I would see him again, you know. And then like a couple of books later in a book called The Virtues of War, I some some instinct made me bring him back a hundred years later and he hasn't changed a bit. He hasn't aged. He's a saint and now he's like a a tutor to the young Alexander the Great, a kind of a sergeant that takes Alexander under his wing as a boy. And uh so then I thought this character I I had not thought of him being cursed at that point but now I thought well here he is in two different lifetimes unchanged. What's going on? So that was when sort of the idea that for crimes in the past he's been cursed to have lifetime after lifetime. And I feel like I I know it's just I said this that even in our own lifetime, just pick one lifetime, forget about previous lives. We've all done that we feel is reverberating still and and harming, holding us down, you know, something we need to atone for, something we need to be redeemed for. So, I think that theme just runs through runs through everything in in our real lives. And um you know, I'm not sure I'm answering your question right, Kyle, but that's that was that's the the aspect of this character that really that appealed to me. And because he's he's he now has a wish, he now has an intention, which is to get off this wheel of karma that, you know, he doesn't want to do this again and again and again. And I I think in many ways we all live our lives like that. You know, maybe not to the extent of, you know, violence and murder and so on and so forth, but in a way we kind of we're stuck. We're repeating things, you know, and we want to move on to the next level. >> So anyway, that's that's what I always loved about this character. >> Well, it certainly answers my question, but I am a little bit curious even how you were talking about Telmon just then. It was like it was like you running it in into an old buddy and then you were telling me a story about your old friend and I I feel like the need to remind you you created this guy, right? So you you came up with the idea, you wrote him into a previous story, you decided to give him his own novel that that turned into a second novel and then guys you you have to read through the Arcadian to kind of see what your plan is with with Telmon moving forward. But I'm just curious like do a lot of your characters feel that way to you almost like uh I don't know like when I read your books like I didn't create Telmon so I get to engage with him as a character that started in your brain but you you seem to be engaging in the same way. I I mean I do feel that way even with the villains, you know, I love the villains particularly, but let me say this about Telmon particularly, he sort of had a life of his own. Like when he appeared in the first book, I didn't intend to bring him back, but he kind of wanted to be brought back in some way. And and uh at some point I just I said I got to give him his own book, which I did with a man at arms. And then I thought after that, I got to take him another level four. And just between you and me, I just finished a third Telmon book >> that's uh you know, nobody has seen yet, but that that is a a prequel like the young Tel. So I guess he's he's living inside me in one way or another and wants has to have his story told >> when one thing that I think a lot of storytellers again I'm not a you know I can tell a story but I'm not a writer in a way that I can carry a narrative but I do notice things there are sometimes where there's a character that is so strong that when there's not a a foil presented for that character or some sort of like other side of the coin in in a different character it almost is like It's like that character needs it. And so in this story, you have the contrasting main characters of a this grizzled war veteran, but also an innocent yet edgy and feisty little girl. And and so like just talk about the the interplay between these two characters and how it really kind of reinforces that you need both characters to tell the story. >> Oh, that's a really astute ob observation, Kyle. I got take my hat off you on that one. And you're absolutely right. It's like when when uh when I wrote a man at arms that was trying to find a man the the first Telmon book that was all only about him. I was still stuck because I only had that character. >> Yeah. >> And then from nowhere from the muse or whatever I thought of a little girl character >> and somehow the two of them the electricity that would happen between them. In other words, she's the exact opposite of him. Um, and to go a little deeper, the genre that all these Telmon books are in, they're westerns. They're westerns just like um a real western or like Mad Max, you know, that was post-apocalyptic or Seven Samurai. Samurai Story is always a western. >> And in a western, the hero is a usually is a gunslinger, a man of violence, right? And it's usually he's usually tortured. He usually has a backstory that has, you know, crippled him one way or another. And he also is a man with a code, right? He has some kind of secret, you know, usually vaguely military type code. Um, but what happens in the story in almost every western is this this man of violence encounters a vulnerable character, >> right? It might be a woman. Like in Unforgiven, Clint Eastwood's movie, it's the prostitutes that had their faces scarred. In the searchers with John Wayne, it's Natalie Wood. In Shane, it's the young boy, Le Brandon Dewild, the character, >> the little girl character. >> Yeah. True Good is perfect. Yeah, it's the girl, right? Uh and that character humanizes >> right >> over the course of the story because he has to choose the man of violence chooses to defend this vulnerable character and then a a relationship forms with them just like True Grit is really a perfect example um how the the characters really bond with each other. You could all really say it's a love story even if it's you know not physical love. So you're absolutely right. It needed Telmon needed a foil, another character that could be his equal but be his opposite as well and that would bring out his humanity. >> Well, and I think with that in mind, um, you know, I have two sons. I have a six-year-old son and a four-year-old son. Those are our children, so I don't have any daughters. But making the foil for Telmon, a little girl, it taps into the instinct of a man to protect those weaker than us. And like I'll get upset even thinking about it, but I've got some of my best friends that have daughters. And the things I would do to protect and preserve the lives of those girls and the violence I would inflict on anyone trying to harm them would be substantial. And so I I felt that I felt that tension for this little girl with how Telmon was kind of responding to her and her needs. And you're right, I didn't even think about that as kind of a western motif. And so hard left turn and then we'll yank it back onto the highway here. What's your favorite modern western and your favorite kind of old school western? I'll give you mine while you think about it. My favorite old school western, thank you to my dad, David Thompson, is the outlaw Josie Wells. It's probably just cuz I'm a nerd and I like that that Gatlin gun scene. And then in terms of modern westerns, it's kind of a running gun battle between No Country for Old Men and Hell or High Water, but I'd probably give the nod to Hell or High Water. But if you had to give your uh your favorite westerns, which which ones would you say? And my favorite written western is Shane. But yeah, >> old school, no question, Shane. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if Are you even are you familiar with that, Kyle? >> Well, that's my favorite written western, but I've never watched the the Shane movie. But in terms of the written, >> it's one of the all-time greats, you know. Um, and in modern, I would I might say Unforgiven. I might also say Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. >> Okay. >> Um, and No Country for Old Men. I as well. I mean, I've I've watched that like 20 times. So, >> the funny thing about that movie is I watched No Country for Old Men in the theater and I left angry because I'm like the main spoiler alert, the guy, guys, this has been out for like 20 years. But it's like the main character is killed off screen and then you realize by the end of the film he was never the protagonist. It was actually Tommy Lee Jones's character and his his quote at the very end is very flumxing. It's like this doesn't attach to anything and then you kind of forget there's no music in the entire film. There's no there's no un like tracking. There's nothing to get your heart rate up and yet your heart rate spikes at several different points throughout the scene. Maybe one of the best villains in in film history uh in in that. But I didn't get it the first time and for whatever reason I was like I and I don't do this. I don't rewatch or reread anything. >> I go back and watch it again. And now I've probably watched it like 20 times because I'm like oh my gosh it's deeper than I ever thought possible. So there's a lot of levels to that. Uh, but to kind of bring it back into the Arcadian, you already mentioned the horse. And so I guess where did the idea for the horse come from? Because again, this is a non-scentient animal that is like a centerpiece of a novel. And so it's like, you know, he's not communicating with words. This isn't like Homewardbound 2 where all of a sudden there's a horse character. It's not Babe where the horse can talk, but it's like he he's this character that that carries uh carries a substantial chunk of the meaning of the Arcadian. So, why do the horse where did the horse even come from? >> Ah, that's a that's another great question. Let me go back just for one second and talk about the little girl. >> Yes. >> You know, a vulnerable character. What's interesting in almost all westerns where there's a vulnerable character is that character surprises you >> and turns out to be not just a helpless person, but like the little girl in both the man at arms and the Arcadian turns out to be a formidable warrior in her own way, >> right? you know, and really evolve and that makes the story really richer uh than just protecting a a you know, a helpless character. But um the horse, let me uh I'll probably give away more than I need to give away, but I don't want to spoil. But uh the in the inciting incident of the story in the Arcadian is Telmon is serving in the year 1508 in some kind of nameless mercenary worthless war. And he looks up one day and a horse is kind of tracking his outfit. always keeping out of reach, but definitely tracking this outfit. And he recognizes the horse as his own horse from 1500 years ago when he served in the Roman legions in the Holy Land. And the horse has an X brand. X being the Roman numeral 10, the brand for the 10th Legion. And suddenly on Telmon's forearm comes little by little a tattoo starts to appear with a matching X which they actually had. The Roman legions did have a military mark where they tattooed their thing. So that's so that was to me what got the story going. And then the question becomes what what is who sent this horse? How did it get become a is it sent by God? Is it sent by some uh um principle of justice? And why was it sent? And Telmon suspects that it's sent to guide him that this is maybe his last lifetime that he's finally going to get off the wheel of karma and the horse is going to lead him. But the reason I picked a horse, hope I'm not getting too far into the weeds. >> No, no, let's go. >> Is horses are real magical creatures. You know, that's right. They their senses are far far attuned beyond human beings. A horse's heart is like five times the size of a of a human's heart and creates an electromagnetic field that actually will if you're standing next to a horse, it will pull you into that field and it's a quite a healing phenomenon. You know that it'll settle your nervous that kind of thing. And also uh a well a horse and a rider. Again, I'm not a great horseman or a horseman at all. I just know this from reading about it and talking to people that horses are so attuned to their rider that just like in Dr. just with the seat without range, you know, without any pressure on on the bridal or the or the bit or anything, the horse is absolutely attuned to to make the jumps to do this and that and the other thing. And if you think about the ancient world like the Roman legions and the cavalry that they had, first of all, they had no stirrups. Stirrups had not been invented >> at that time. So that uh basically you're riding bearback or think about American Indians and you know that kind of thing. And and these guys would fight with a shield on one arm and a lance or something or a you know a saber in the other. So they're not really hanging out of the reigns in any way. So back in the day, imagine what horsemanship must have been. >> Yeah. >> So in any event, again, I want the reader to believe things that could not possibly be true to make this story work. So So that a horse, you know, a there's a flying horse and and legend there all kinds of legendary horses that do amazing things. So that was why I also it's a it's great visual you know what's better than a man on horseback you know. >> Well even in some of the things that you were saying uh Stephen my favorite movie of all time is Gladiator and it's interesting because there's there's a line that seems like a throwaway line but he's talking about the two horses that are on his armor. This is when he's been captured. He's a gladiator and the little boy comes up to the to the bars and he's like are those your horses? And he's like yeah this is Gas and this is Falco. They were my horses. And this actually was interesting. This comes on the heels of him removing his tattoo. It it said uh SPQR. It was the mark of the legion, right? And so and isn't that so interesting? Telon has a tattoo that's appearing on him that is the mark of the legion. And so it's almost like >> I never even thought about that. That's Yeah, I like that even better. >> Well, yeah, that just even occurred to me like it was so u important to Maximus, the character, to remove this marking so that he could become who he needed to become to get his vengeance, right? And so it's like and we almost have like you know a photo negative of that almost in the story of Telmon. Um and so uh that that's potentially interesting. So, as we wrap up uh the Arcadium, and again, no spoilers here, but with a character like Telmon, um you know, I lot I know a lot of guys, you know, obviously Jack Carr, Greg Herurwitz, these are people that have serial characters that that are in there that are in their books that they go over several books and then you set up prequels and then you can, you know, do a book about the main character's dad, as we see with, you know, Tom and and James Reese with Jack Carr and his books. >> Uh how do you decide how long to keep a character around? How long to keep a character alive? How long to keep a character in a new setting? When to do a prequel, when to look at other things that influence how we even got the main character that we we we knew and grew to love in in the first iteration of that character. >> That's a great question. I'm just answering that myself now. I really don't know. It's not like I've learned this in school or anything, but I'm, you know, as you know, Kyle, I'm a big believer that stories come to us from another dimension of reality. you know, the goddess, the muse gives us stories. So, if she gives me another story with Telmon, I'll do it. Um, I don't know what that is at the moment. I think it might be this this next one might be the last one. But, uh, you never know. I mean, this this character for me has a lot of juice and still, you know, is still working out his destiny. So, I don't have another one in mind yet, but maybe there will be. >> Well, I'm just curious for you. I'm always curious for someone as, you know, prolific in in writing as you are. You already told us you you got the prequel uh kind of in the can. We we'll have you back on to certainly talk about that. But what what are you working on next? Like what what gets you interested and excited about kind of the next thing because yeah, you've talked a lot about the muse or the goddess. And obviously I would I would tell you that the inspiration you're getting is is coming from the divine that you know your creator your creator god is kind of helping you formulate these stories that ultimately point back to his glory. I what's that next story? Is there that next world that did exist, but you have some ideas about some people that could be pulling the strings to make that world more interesting? Well, what what's in the back of your brain? >> I'm still really I'm still really into this new this new one, the prequel I was talking about. I've got it done to my own satisfaction, but now I have to have Diana, my editor, read it, and then my real editor, read it, and then I'll I'll be continuing to work on that. And then but the next book for me is going to be another another non-fiction book, another sort of war of art type of book. >> Okay. Well, >> but uh >> well, you got direct access to my inbox at some point. >> Yeah, I would love for you to get back to Telmon. I'd love to continue learning more about that character and obviously uh your your non-fiction stuff as well. We'd love to have you back on for your fifth appearance. And I don't know if you know this, but at your sixth appearance, you you complete your punch card and that's redeemable for something awesome like a high five or or a big hug or something like that. So, keep that in mind. But that's all for me, Stephen. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> Uh, just thank you very much, Kyle. This has been a great, you know, interview. Thanks for thanks for reading this stuff so thoroughly and thanks for thinking about it. Thanks for the really thoughtful questions. You know, before we maybe we get off here. Maybe you've heard I want to tell you another story that has nothing to do with me or but it's about about Maximus. Maybe maybe you've heard this story or not. This I saw this on Instagram. It's Russell Crowe telling a story about have you heard when he goes to visit the Vatican. >> Uh >> he's visiting the Vatican. This is like three or four years ago or something with his family. They're on vacation and they get to tour. They go into with the cyine chapel, right? And as then there just has special tour from the main you know the Vatican guy right and he says he tells Russell Crowe he says you know normally when tourists come in here we have this sort of normal lighting but we have this special lighting only for the pope where we turn on and you can really see the ceiling and the beautiful and so they said I'm going to turn that on for you and he turns it on and they just go oh my god this is beautiful we never saw and and when it's over Russell Crow says you know Why? Why were you so nice to me? And the guy says, "You are Maximus for you everything. >> Let's go. Let's go." Well, and man, that that's the thing about that character is, you know, people have their own opinions about Maximus or not Maximus, but Gladiator 2, but even Russell Crowe was very public. He was in an interview and he said, "You can tell that the people in charge of Gladiator 2 don't understand why Gladiator 1 worked. They don't understand why the original one worked so bad." And then there here is a story that I heard about Russell Crowe. I guess they were pretty adamant, the studio was or maybe Ridley Scott was pretty adamant about having a love scene, a sex scene between him and like the the Marcus Aurelius's daughter or something like that. And but Russell Crowe was like vehemently against it. He's like, "No, no, no. You don't understand the character of Maximus, his attachment to his murdered wife and his murdered son. This does not fit the character at all. It's going to be a distraction away uh from where this is going. And you want to talk about being absolutely right. He was absolutely right. It would have absolutely >> God, it would have been so worthless uh uh to to it. Not just for the gratuitous nature of a sex scene just for the sake of having it, but it would have added nothing to the story. It only could have taken away. And so, man, that's why that thing is a masterpiece. But that's a great story. So, I feel the need to tee you up again here at the end. I don't have anything else cool to say. You got any other cool stories you want to share? >> That's it. That's it for now. I will save it for the next time. >> Okay. And there certainly will be a next time. We'll see you then. Thanks, Stephen. >> All right. Thank you, Kyle. >> Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, or shoot me an email to info@unaed.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. Now heat.