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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Let's get into it.
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All right, guys.
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We've got a special guest on the podcast today.
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His name is Sunny Sandoval, and so I am so giddy and excited about this one, so this was
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pretty nostalgic, and I kind of nerd it out a little bit, but if you don't know who that
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is, he is the lead singer of the multi-platinum selling and thrice Grammy-nominated new metal
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group, POD.
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So POD has been making music for over three decades now, and they've sold like, I don't
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know, 12, 13 million records worldwide during that time, but also Sunny Sandoval is the
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co-founder of a ministry group called The Huso Evers, and he is the author of the brand
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new book, Son of Southtown, My Life Between Two Worlds, and so the band POD, and I talk
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about this in the show, this is a very important band to me.
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This was a band that I found in middle school, and for a lot of you guys, the songs and the
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bands you listen to in middle school are some of the most formative things that you listen
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to, and so I've described on the show before that Metallica in elementary school was kind
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of that band that kind of like really got me into rock, you know, my dad was in a classic
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rock and things like that, so that kind of formulated everything, but I even mentioned
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this on the show, Zayo Living Sacrifice, Lincoln Park, and POD, like in middle school, those
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were things that kind of gave me the guardrails for the music that I would go on and continue
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to listen to.
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And so I've been wanting to get Sunny on the show for a very long time, and we just weren't
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able to really work it out, but with a new book coming out, we were able to get it solidified.
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So in this discussion, and we talk about, okay, why write a book, right?
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You know, you're a lead singer of a band, why do a book, but then also like, what was it
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like growing up in South, Southtown and Southern California, and what was it like kind of living
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between these two worlds of rock and roll and the church, and then specifically how his
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mom and dad, his relationship with both of them really affected how he saw Jesus and
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also him accepting Jesus.
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And really we get into the POD story, and we get into how, you know, from the beginning
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he's trying to figure out, like, am I going to be, is this going to be a Christian band
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or are we going to be Christians in a band, and what does that look like, how in the world
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did they make it mainstream, making the music that they were making, the whole Christian
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music scene where, you know, people were just kind of pretending to be Christian, or if you
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didn't make Christian music that sounded like CCM, or like hymns, or something like that,
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how you were, like, satanic in the devil, and obviously I've talked about that particular
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subject matter on my show quite a bit, and so we go into discussions about that, we talk
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about some of the early albums, the fundamental elements of Southtown that put them on the
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scene, and then satellite, which basically made them go catastrophic, I guess, they made
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them go worldwide.
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And so it was a very, very good thing.
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They sold tons and tons of records.
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It's their most successful album, but then they were invited to go out on the road with
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a band like Corn.
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So here's this band full of Christians going out with the band like Corn, when Corn was
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at their peak, but obviously not a Christian man by any stretch of the imagination, got
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into some of the later albums, the stuff that they did with Madas Yahu, you know, him taking
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a year off and then eventually coming back to music and things like that, but we just
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weaved in and out of a lot of different discussions about the church and the effectiveness of
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sharing the gospel towards the end, you got to stick with me because we did a little bit
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of a lightning round thing.
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It was like, okay, if you could have one do over on an album, which one would you do over?
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You know, what's your Mount Rushmore of POD albums like your top four?
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What's the one album you would leave for all humanity?
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What's the one song you would leave for all humanity if you had to delete the rest of your
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artistic catalog?
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And so we had some fun with those questions towards the end, but guys just really, really
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enjoyed my time with Sonny.
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It's great to see what he's done in music, but also in ministry.
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So I'm not going to keep him from you any longer.
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So without further ado, let's get into it.
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Sonny Santa ball.
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Welcome to Donald to life and man's podcast.
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Hey, thank you, brother, man, I feel like this is a long time coming because I've created
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like a, I got a short list and I don't tell everybody the names that are on the list,
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but I've been trying to get you on for a few years here.
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We've been trying to work out the logistics of making that happen, but it's good timing
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because you have a new book out, which guys, if you're listening to this on time, it is
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out now, it is called son of Southtown.
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Okay.
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So this is your, I guess you'd call it debut book and the cool thing about when you, when
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you read the book, which guys, you know, we're not going to be able to get into all the details
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of the book today.
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That's why you got to go out and buy yourself, but the subtitle of the book is my life between
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two worlds.
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Okay.
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And so that's, that's where we're going to start because essentially you set this up
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at the beginning, Sonny, and then you kind of take us in and out of that same theme throughout
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the entire book, which is one world is rock and roll.
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And the other world is the church, right?
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The capital C church as it were.
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So let's just start there, man.
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Why write a book?
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Why tackle that as a theme?
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Let's get into it.
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I mean, that's kind of been, I mean, this obviously the book is just, it's my experiences
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and my experience alone, you know, when I knew when I did this book, it wasn't, I wasn't
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trying to, I mean, I've been wanting to do it for a long time.
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I just just have another time and think COVID kind of sparked a lot of new fresh ideas,
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you know, so solo music, writing a book, stuff like that.
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And I knew I didn't want to do a, you know, how to do Christianity in five steps type of
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book, you know what I mean?
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It's like, yeah, who am I, who am I to tell you, you know what I mean?
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You walk with the living God, you, you, these are things that you, you know, you, you, you
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converse with the creator of the universe and I don't know how to walk your walk, you
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know what I mean?
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So this isn't a, but I got it all figured out, Sonny Sandoval's way to do Christianity.
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It's just me being vulnerable and honest and saying, Hey, this is where I grew up.
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This is, you know, these are, these were my possibilities.
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I had an encounter with Jesus.
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And I've tried my best to, to live that walkout, you know what I mean?
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But I also am in an industry that I never asked for, you know what I mean?
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I purposefully believe that I was put here because I said a powerful prayer.
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That's when I was, when I got saved, you know, I said, God, if you can use my life, then use
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my life.
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I didn't know that it was going to be in rock and roll.
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I, you know, I just, this is not something I'm comfortable doing, getting on, getting
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in front of people, you know, talking, let alone singing or performing.
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It's just something that I just knew, Hey, if I have a mic, you know, maybe my friends
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will see that I'm different.
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I've changed.
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And, and, and I just want people to know what I'm going through, you know, and that this
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Jesus that I'm, I'm discovering is not, is not the picture that the world is painted.
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And so that just happened to be now we're in a 33 year career of POD.
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And it's the ups and downs, it challenges and made a lot of mistakes, had a lot of successes,
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but all this, even now I'm sitting here still saying that there's nothing better than the
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love and the peace of God.
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And I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade that for anything.
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Well, that's the thing to use the word honesty as I'm reading through the book, because I
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knew some of the stories, I knew some of the stuff that was being discussed, but like obviously
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you're going to just kind of be behind the curtain on some very personal stuff without
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going too far without violating confidence of people that weren't there to defend themselves
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in the book or whatever.
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But it was a very honest take, I feel like it really does go all the way back to South
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Town.
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I love the title of the books, Son of Southtown, but, you know, the majority of your audience
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here is not from Southtown, I've never been to Southtown, we'll probably not be able to
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locate on the map, but, you know, you do a great job of kind of elucidating what, what
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Southtown was like, what it was like growing up there.
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But even, you know, you were kind of a straight lace dude, but, you know, you had some friends
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that were knuckleheads and, you know, got caught up in crime and drugs and gang.
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So just give us, you know, a 30,000 foot flyover of what it was like growing up in Southtown.
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Yeah, I think, you know, your opportunities are slim, you know what I mean?
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Like I said, like, well, like you said, you know, my friends, either you sell drugs, you
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know, you're in a gang or you go to prison and, or you work hard, you know what I mean?
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And so me growing up with my friends, there was a lot of trouble to get into, but it was,
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it was my conviction, you know, I came from a young family and when God started to save
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individuals in my, in my family, that was real to me.
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Just as, just as real as the streets were, just as real as the possibilities of dying
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by 30.
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You know what I mean?
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Or 25 was real watching God move on my family was real.
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So I always had a love and a respect and admiration for God.
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I just didn't know how to walk with him personally.
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And so it wasn't until my mom got very sick of leukemia and in a passing away that, you
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know, I prayed and I just said, God, I, I need, I need my mom's Jesus.
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I don't need the world's Jesus.
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You know, I don't need this, this Westernized, you know, TBN buy a thousand dollar, a little
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bit of holy water type Jesus.
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This is, they've got the world fooled.
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And that's not who Jesus is, you know, and so I didn't, I didn't buy into that.
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And so, you know, God, he revealed himself to me and that's, that's a, that's a, that's
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a big boy prayer when anyone could say, God, show me who you are.
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Because when he does that, it's undeniable and then you're like, okay, now I just got
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to deal with me because I am as imperfect as they come.
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But I know that God is holy and that he's real and I, and I'm, and I'm trying to walk
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with him the best that I can.
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And so that was my journey through rock and roll.
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I didn't, I never thought we'd leave San Diego, but when we did, it was, that was real life.
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That's not the four walls of church, you know, well, let's go, let's go back to talking about
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your mom because I mean, as you're reading the book, Sonny, like you could feel the feelings
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you had for your mother, because it's one thing to say, Hey, I love you, mom, or to get up
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at a war show and say, Oh, I think my mom and dad, but we could really feel the connection
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that you and your mother had and your mother did seem to be an especially special woman.
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But you know, as she was passing away, there's some point of quotes from the book again,
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guys, you have to go get it yourself.
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But let's double click on that big boy prayer you had because there are people in that in
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those times, right?
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The valley of the shadow of death as it were where they were either mad at God and they
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don't even think he exists, but they're mad at him, if he does exist, right?
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And then there's people that are just desperate and there's other people that are like, all
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right, if you are who my mom and my grandma and all these people say you are, how about
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you show up right now?
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It felt like it was a little bit more like that.
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So let's go back to that moment where you're, you know, your life changed in a moment.
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It wasn't just because you lost your mom, your rock, it was because Jesus stepped in.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And either scenario is great.
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You can be mad at God.
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I mean, I don't know if you have the right to, but God allows you to because he can handle
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it.
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He can handle how ever you come to him.
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And if you come [inaudible] off to God, God can handle it.
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He knows.
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Look at the Psalms, man.
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Look at the Psalms.
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I mean, look at where Jesus took his disciples to Caesarea Philippi, everything that was going
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around it, even the disciples didn't want to go there because it was too sinful.
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And Jesus said, take a look at this.
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Take a really good look and look what's going on, you know, but I did that and I was never
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angry at God.
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It was because I saw, I saw Jesus and my mom and that was real to me.
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So even through her sickness and illness and into her last breath, she had the peace of
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God.
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And so that was undeniable.
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My only thing was coming to God broken and saying, Lord, if you take my mom, I don't really
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know what I'm going to do.
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I might hurt somebody or I might hurt myself.
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But I want her to know that because she asked me, she just said, she wanted me to get right
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with Jesus because she knew that the way I was and that if I wasn't saved, that I would
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not be in heaven when she died.
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And so that was real to me.
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And so on the day that she died, I went to that parking lot and I just said, God, okay,
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I know that I don't need anybody to convince me that you're real or that you love me or
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even more so that I'm a sinner.
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I know I'm a sinner and I know you can forgive me.
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The thing is I just, it has to be you, Jesus.
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It has to be my mom's Jesus, not the world's Jesus.
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And I just said, God, if you can do that, then I'm in.
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And as I did that, I went back into the hospital.
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I told my mom, I said, go and be with Jesus, I'll be right.
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And she ended up passing away not too much longer after that.
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But as I started to read the Bible and go to church and really fall in love with God,
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that's when I said, okay, God, if you can use my life, I don't know if you can because
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I don't, who am I?
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What do I have to offer, except that I just want the world to know that I'm discovering
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who you are and the world needs to, they need to know that because they don't.
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They don't know how good you are.
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And so before you knew it, I got asked to be in this band.
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And I had actually said no, because it wasn't my, it's not what I wanted to do or ever had
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a skill to do.
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But because I asked God to use my life, certain things happen in that, finally I said, I think
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I'm supposed to do this.
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And then again, I never thought I'd leave San Diego.
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I never thought I'd leave California and all of a sudden we just kept, you know, we worked
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regular jobs, but we also played music.
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And before you knew it, not before you knew, we worked our butts off.
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And then all of a sudden, seven years later, we signed a record label deal that was unheard
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of for a band who was known to be Christian, you know?
13:13
Yeah, I mean, we're going to get into a lot of that because, you know, every overnight
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success, there's like 10 years of hard work and nobody paying attention, you know what
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I mean?
13:21
Like, for anybody, we've experienced that with the show before we get specifically into
13:24
POD and kind of how all that came to be.
13:27
You mentioned your father a few times throughout the book.
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And obviously I keyed in on that, this is a largely male audience, a lot of dads in
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the audience, a lot of dads that had good dads, dads that had bad dads.
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You seem to kind of have a little bit of a on again off again, dad would be around that
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wouldn't be around.
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Obviously your mom was your rock, but I'm, well, actually there's a short quote that
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I wanted to read.
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Sure sucks for me as a young kid, but I get it.
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If anything, I think it taught me at an early age, what kind of husband and father I wanted
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to be and what kind I was committed not to be.
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And so obviously you can respect your mother and father, right?
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You can honor them and not like them.
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You can honor them and model yourself yourself as the antithesis of who that person is.
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But I'm always curious for somebody because there's usually a hang up sunny when I talk
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to guys about the gospel and they're like, man, I just can't imagine a more powerful
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version of my dad because that's what they see God as, right?
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Like Heavenly Father, Ultimate Father, they see it as their father just more.
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And if their father was a real POS, then it's just like, this isn't a good thing, you know
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what I mean?
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So did any of that kind of hinder you, I guess, in your understanding and seeking the Heavenly
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Father?
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I mean, you know, there's so many amazing qualities of my dad too.
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But even as I explained in the book, but my mom and dad, they were, they were kids having
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kids or a kid, you know, they had me there, they didn't know any better and I'm, I don't
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believe in, in walking this life with all of these, with that victim mentality or all
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these, you know, what was me type mentality because when we, when we, when we find Jesus
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we're a new creation, you know what I mean?
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So I don't have no hang ups.
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But like I said, I think wanting that father figure is what also made me connect with God,
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but it also made me want to be the best father that I could.
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And, you know, I'm not saying that I'm the best father.
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I'm just saying that's what I want, I strive to be, I strive to be the best husband, you
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know?
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So, yeah, those are just, this is just part of, part of my journey.
15:32
Okay.
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Well, let's, let's go and get into the music piece because again, as you read through the
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book, I mean, you're talking about like, look, I'm working at a grocery store.
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This is a good job.
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Like I'm just going to kind of work my way up.
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I'm going to have this blue collar living, but I'm going to keep my nose clean and I'm
15:45
just going to, you know, live out my days in Southtown with a little family and my little
15:49
slice of, you know, the American dream, right?
15:51
Yeah.
15:52
But then, you know, this microphone thing happens and then like your influences of music growing
15:57
up with like reggae and different types of rock and things like that.
16:00
They kind of get melded with a little bit of family and a few other people sprinkled over
16:04
the top of like, just talk to me about really those formative days.
16:07
I know you go into detail in the book, guys, you got to get the book, but those formative
16:10
days, like it's one thing to go from, I don't like talking in front of people to, I'm going
16:15
to scream into this microphone even though I don't know how breath works and I don't
16:19
know that my nose is all jacked up and like, I'm having to scream into this mic.
16:22
Like, how does that even get going?
16:23
Yeah, bro.
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I didn't know what I was doing.
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I still don't know if I do.
16:28
That's why I can honest.
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That's why I can honestly say, and I believe 100,000% that it was God, you know what I
16:35
mean?
16:36
That, that, that, and the most amazing thing is that when we actually got successful and
16:41
people were like, isn't, you think this is amazing that you guys are rock stars and
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I'm like, that's not amazing to me.
16:48
What's amazing to me is that somewhere along the line, I heard this, the small still voice
16:53
of God saying, this is what you're supposed to do and it's crazy because when you, when
16:58
you feel like you have a calling in your life and you follow it, you can go years and it's
17:03
never confirmed.
17:04
You know what I mean?
17:05
It's never confirmed that this is what I was supposed to do.
17:07
Is this something I wanted to do? Was this all me? Was this selfish?
17:11
But it was proven later that this is what I was supposed to do.
17:15
Even if it was just for that, you know, that certain season, but bro, I didn't know what
17:20
I was doing.
17:21
And that's why I can't even take any of the glory when, when, you know, the first time
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I picked a mic and screamed into it, it was just like, all I can do is just try.
17:29
But I had to rely on the resources that, you know, I wasn't even, I'm not even a metal
17:34
guy.
17:35
I liked rock and roll, but I was more into street music, you know, and, and, but, but
17:39
I learned as I went with the guys because, you know, Marcos, he was the metal guy and
17:44
Trey was the jazz front guy and my, you know, my cousin, well, it was more of a jazzy rock
17:49
guy.
17:50
And so I was learning, I loved all those music, but it was, I was just learning as we went,
17:55
but it was never, can we be the, the, the, these great musicians, to me, it wasn't that
18:01
way, it was just, hey, can, if you give me a mic, I just want to scream what, what I'm
18:05
going through and what's on my heart.
18:07
And obviously, you know, you listen to the first albums and there was a lot of such cheesy
18:12
immature lyrics and stuff that we did, you know what I mean?
18:15
Yeah.
18:16
We were kids, bro.
18:17
We were kids, you know, and so, and I just, I just tried to learn as, as, as we've gone
18:22
on.
18:23
Well, Sonny, in a small way, we, we just recently went over 700 episodes of this podcast and
18:28
I go back to listening to some of the podcasts from the single digits and I'm like, all right,
18:32
well, okay, I definitely, okay, yeah, those are words, but those, that's not necessarily
18:36
the order I would have put them in.
18:37
So if you go back and listen to stuff, the punk and brown, like you're super psyched about
18:41
it, that means you're not really progressing a whole lot as you make it through.
18:45
But I would say for me, and whenever I talk to guys that are kind of stuck, like, Hey,
18:49
I don't know if I'm living out God's purpose, because they think God's purpose is they having
18:52
the word pastor in their, on their job title or whatever, but it's like, when do you feel
18:57
like you're over the X, so that's kind of a military term, like we are over the X, we're
19:02
about to drop this payload and we're about to do the job we came here to do, because
19:06
if you, if you're struggling, but you still feel like you're over the X, that means you're
19:11
in process, right?
19:12
It doesn't, and if you've arrived, right, you've gotten some success, maybe some promotions,
19:17
maybe some, some accolades, some sales, whatever, you still have to be over the X. It's when
19:22
you cease to be over the X that God is probably communicating to you, Hey, I've got something
19:26
else for you, right?
19:28
And it's going to be better, even if you don't perceive it to, but I do want to hit on something
19:31
you're talking about the Christian music scene, right?
19:33
So y'all signed, you know, this big deal, you know, you're in the Christian music scene,
19:37
but there's a couple of quotes I really want to dig into because this is kind of like a
19:40
bugaboo thing for me because like, I've talked to a bunch of people that tell me my music
19:44
tastes is satanic because, you know, it's way too loud and like, Oh, that kind of stuff.
19:48
Don't worry.
19:49
We're going to get there.
19:50
But we're going to ease our way in.
19:51
So let me read a couple of these quotes.
19:52
There were even a few Christian kids I knew who could get down with the best of us, but
19:56
love and Marcos and the guys just wanted to play and they didn't want to be confined
20:01
to church basements and youth retreats.
20:03
That's when I discovered the difference between Christian bands and bands that are made up
20:07
of Christians.
20:08
Okay.
20:09
Now here's another quote, short one, humanity was made to appreciate beauty.
20:13
When the church abdicated its creative role, the secular world filled the vacuum.
20:19
So in two sentences there on that second quote, Sonny, you summarize something that I've
20:24
been screaming at people because people are like, why is Christian music so terrible?
20:28
Why is secular music so better?
20:29
Why are Christian movies so awful?
20:31
And it's, it's multifaceted.
20:33
But it's because the church who should understand beauty and glory the most because they know
20:37
where it comes from.
20:38
They know the source of it, right?
20:40
But when they abdicated the role of creating and tried to put creation into a box called
20:45
contemporary Christian music or safe for television or TV and approved, then we get to where we
20:51
are now where no, most kids don't want to listen to Christian music because it just doesn't
20:55
sound good when it hits their ear holes.
20:57
So let's talk a little bit about that.
20:58
Well, that's, that's just religious thinking, you know what I mean?
21:01
And that's the stuff that I hate about the institution of Christianity because when you,
21:07
when you think about the greats and all these composers and musicians and artists centuries
21:13
ago, they, they loved God and, and, and so even the worst of the worst, um, fleshly artists,
21:22
even in their inspiration, they, they asked you Michael Angela or anybody that said, hey,
21:26
what?
21:27
Why did you create this?
21:28
Because I, I love God and it was real, their life always didn't reflect that, but they weren't
21:34
in this Christian box of, of, hey, this is how I'm supposed to, to do everything.
21:39
And so you have some of the greatest artists and musicians of all time, but once they put
21:44
themselves into a Christian box as the years gone by, we've just become duplicates.
21:49
And I hate that we've taken a backseat in art in music in so many different things because
21:55
we're trying to fit this religious Christian mold that really it ruins our, it does ruin
22:04
our creativity, you know what I mean?
22:05
But I don't even think that that's, it's how it was ever intended, but we're also just
22:10
trying to look self righteous or even holy in front of the world and say, well, we can't,
22:15
we don't do it that way.
22:16
That's ungodly.
22:17
It's like, what, what, what's ungodly about it?
22:20
Tell me about it.
22:21
Even, even show me scripturize where that's ungodly.
22:24
You've just dumbed down everything.
22:25
If you were to write or especially now with, with technology and computers, uh, and graphics
22:33
from the Bible from the beginning of end, I don't think Christians would go watch it.
22:38
They wouldn't go see it.
22:39
It's rough.
22:40
It's, it's, dude, it's as real as it possibly gets.
22:44
That's why I understand what Bible most Christians are reading.
22:49
You know what I mean?
22:50
We try to put it in such this neat conservative package that's not really true.
22:56
The gospel and the whole story, the gospel of Jesus is as hardcore as it gets.
23:02
You know what I mean?
23:03
You know, anyways, I, I, uh, it's a, it's a, it's just, it was a learning process because
23:09
you know, obviously you just get saved and, you know, we're not, you're not ashamed of
23:13
being a Christian or being, uh, saved, but it was just like you.
23:20
Christians were just when they're, they're the ones who attacked us first.
23:23
That's what was crazy.
23:24
As they said, our music wasn't of God, our tattoos weren't of God.
23:28
And so I've been battling this forever and it, it took me so long, bro, to just let it
23:33
all go.
23:34
It took me a long time.
23:36
And I think if anything, it was more, more Christians that made me jaded towards, towards
23:42
God.
23:43
I had to have a whole different encounter with God and where God was just reassuring me,
23:47
like, Hey, just kick back, take it easy on my church.
23:50
You know, I know what's going on and, and it's not all pretty and it's messed up, but you
23:55
can't let those things get in the way of what you and I are doing here, right?
24:01
The relationship you and I have.
24:03
So I mean, obviously I vent a lot, you know what I mean, but I've let it go, bro.
24:08
I've let it go.
24:09
But at the same time, just as much as I love my Christian brothers and sisters, bro, I
24:14
don't have time or I don't want to babysit them because they're walking their walk with
24:20
God, just like I am.
24:22
But you went to say what you said earlier is like, we, we all have a calling and it might
24:26
not be a pastor, you know what I mean?
24:28
If your job is to work six days a week and you still have the strength to get up on Sunday
24:33
to go to church.
24:34
God bless you, bro.
24:35
Let's go.
24:36
Bless you.
24:37
You, you, you are amazing to the Lord, you know what I'm saying?
24:39
God loves you and you are no different than that guy with, with the title.
24:44
So yeah, but again, that's religious thinking that if we're not, you know, I'm, I'm a missionary
24:50
or we're not working in the church, you know, sometimes they, we feel bad.
24:54
We're made to feel guilty, you know, hey, guys, real quick, as you've heard me describe
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26:30
Want to become this problematic, especially when you start throwing around very serious
26:34
labels haphazardly, like satanic, right?
26:38
So I have been reliably informed, Sonny, that there are such things as demon notes.
26:43
So these are notes in music that are demonic, the notes themselves as if.
26:48
Okay.
26:49
So, but we're going to dig in just a little bit further because, you know, heavy music
26:52
is satanic because categorically because words are something, but then you were talking about
26:57
cornerstone back in the early to mid nineties.
27:00
And so that was kind of this big Christian festival thing.
27:02
I was never able to go to it, but it's like, if you knew anything about that world, you
27:05
knew about this.
27:06
But I'll read this quote from from the book here, when Maria arrived at the festival, we
27:10
found more of the same.
27:11
It opened our eyes that not only were there a lot of bands out there like us, but there
27:15
were a lot of Christians that had the same mentality.
27:18
They too were loudly and at times aggressively glorifying God.
27:22
It was validating.
27:23
It let us know that we weren't just loan rebels against the buttoned up Christian traditions,
27:27
but we were part of a valid subculture within the true church.
27:31
If people didn't like it, they were more than welcome to go sing their hymns up in the sanctuary.
27:35
We'd keep praising God our way down in the basement.
27:39
So I want to say this because there was a worship leader.
27:43
I'm in Oklahoma City.
27:44
There was a worship leader in Oklahoma City years ago, Sonny, that said, because I don't
27:46
like contemporary Christian music.
27:49
So what you would hear on K one or air air, or whatever, Caleb, whatever, that I, I wasn't
27:54
saved.
27:55
He's like, brother, I don't think you're saved.
27:57
And he was a worship leader and I go, Oh, I'm sorry.
27:59
I don't think you can talk to me like that.
28:00
I don't think you get to judge whether or not, like I'm actually saved.
28:05
And then there are other people that are like, Kyle, when I've seen you a church or whatever,
28:08
I don't see you like throwing your hands up and dancing around and doing all that type
28:11
of stuff.
28:12
But I do want to go back to something.
28:13
I wish I knew what show was, but you guys were actually playing in Tulsa.
28:17
This was at Kane's ballroom.
28:18
I don't remember who else was on the who else was on the bill.
28:20
I don't even remember if y'all were headlining.
28:22
I'm pretty sure that you were.
28:24
And I don't even remember what song, Sonny, but I remember being vaguely somewhere down
28:28
front ish.
28:29
And I remember lifting my hands and praise during one of the POD songs and singing.
28:35
And also if you, if it's a band like for today or holy name or back in the early Zao days,
28:41
living sacrifice, when I'm experiencing those bands and concert, I feel incredibly close
28:47
to God, the father and it's in I bro, I love him.
28:51
I love songs that are turned into songs.
28:53
I love some contemporary Christian music, but to tell me that because my personality bins
28:59
towards the aggressive that I like aggressive worship music, that is music that you want
29:04
playing when you're storming the gates of hell, that I'm somehow playing the devil's
29:07
role.
29:08
It's like, get out of here.
29:09
But anyway, talk a little bit more about that.
29:11
No, bro.
29:12
I'll just I'll just start up by saying he was wrong.
29:15
He was wrong.
29:17
And but again, I can't, I can't hold these grudges because of, because at the end of the day,
29:23
he's just a dude.
29:24
He's just a dude trying, trying his best to be holy, you know, which we get trying his
29:29
best to do what's right.
29:30
But that's the problem is that we have too many people telling the world how to be when
29:35
they're not even doing it themselves, bro.
29:37
Right.
29:38
Not even, you know, it's just like, it's just like you get, you get saved on Sunday.
29:42
You're baptized by Monday.
29:43
You know, you're in a whatever.
29:45
You have a million ministries by Friday and your back's written by the next Sunday and
29:49
it's just like, dude, just live your life and walk it.
29:51
Stop telling everybody how to how to do it.
29:53
Like I want to see it.
29:55
I want to see it, you know, and there's times and plays for all kinds of stuff.
29:58
And I believe if God put someone in your heart and it's specific and you need to communicate
30:02
that, then by all means.
30:04
But also I think you need a resume that says, dude, I've been walking with God for a long
30:09
time.
30:10
And you know those people, do I trust this guy, he's got wisdom and discernment.
30:14
He's been walking.
30:15
He's been in the trenches, walking with the Lord forever.
30:18
But then I could also look at people and I'm like, dude, I've seen a million of you and
30:23
all of my years walking with the Lord.
30:25
And that's cool.
30:26
I love you.
30:27
You can listen to people.
30:28
And then many times I've had a word, you know, from God, you know, from this person
30:33
or whatever.
30:34
And it's like, yeah, thank you, brother.
30:35
Does any of that resonate with you?
30:36
I sure hope so, man.
30:38
I sure hope so.
30:39
If it's of God, it'll it'll work out.
30:41
It'll pan out.
30:42
And if it's not, then hey, man, it was nice to meet you, you know, but that's very dangerous
30:49
because we get it now because we've been we've been on this journey for a long time.
30:53
And you know how many people that are so vulnerable, but when it just takes that one time and
30:57
they'll hold onto that forever, they'll be like, that one time that guy told me my music
31:01
was of the devil, I've never walked into a church since then, man, I want nothing to
31:05
do with God.
31:06
I'm not saying that's an excuse.
31:08
I still believe God will will reach the heart of that person, but they're going to hold
31:13
onto that good to that person for the longest time.
31:16
And you know what?
31:17
Again, what I can say is, dude, that's not freedom.
31:20
I don't want, and I don't believe that God intends us to walk with him with that kind
31:25
of mentality.
31:26
Bro, I'm free.
31:28
I am so free in my walk with God, but it's taken a long time where, yeah, I've had to
31:34
walk.
31:35
I've had to make a lot of mistakes and learn that this is what's good for me.
31:38
And it's what's bad for me.
31:40
I love certain music, but then there's certain lyrics there's certain I remember listening
31:44
to a tool record years ago, and I was like, man, this music is powerful and it's do that.
31:49
I mean, musician, ship, everything is amazing.
31:51
But the lyrics, it was killing my heart, and it was on a construction site.
31:56
And I was like, I can't listen to this, man.
32:00
To me, this is blasphemy, and he's mocking my Jesus.
32:05
And as much as it even made me [inaudible], I was angry, like, if I ever see this guy out, choke
32:10
him out.
32:11
But then it actually made me sad after years, it was like, this is sad because he doesn't
32:18
know the goodness of Jesus.
32:21
And but I also believe that those that are mocking God, especially in this day and era
32:26
are closer to finding God than those that just, I don't know, I don't know if God exists
32:32
or he doesn't.
32:33
I'm just walking, cruising my life.
32:35
But the ones that are angry and [inaudible] off with God, bro, you're right there.
32:40
Because they're seeking, man, they're fervently seeking and there's some sort of intellectual
32:46
honesty and they're seeking because they know inherently that we are not just highly
32:51
evolved monkeys that figured out fire, pants, and language, like that's, that's not how
32:55
any of this works.
32:57
And another thing you're kind of talking about is guys like that, they got a word for you.
33:00
Isn't the word always something that they think they should, that you should change
33:03
about you because it's not their style.
33:06
And just I think about the people that think that only contemporary Christian music is worship
33:11
full to the Lord.
33:12
It's like, bro, have you been to South America?
33:14
Have you been to Japan?
33:15
Have you been to an underground church in the Middle East?
33:17
They're not playing Hillsong, okay?
33:19
They're playing something that sounds like what's happening in their area and they're
33:23
making the music to the glory of the Lord.
33:25
They're riding the lyrics to the glory of the Lord.
33:28
But anyway, I feel like I'm preaching now, but I feel on the same page here because I
33:31
got to get back to a late night when I was in middle school, okay?
33:35
It's late night.
33:36
Everybody.
33:37
I had my dad's house.
33:38
He's asleep.
33:39
And I started flipping the channels and I'd watched sports in or two or three times in
33:42
a row.
33:43
So I already know who won.
33:44
So on some thing where there's like skateboarding, right?
33:47
So it's like some channel and there's skateboarding going on, there's music in the background.
33:52
And then all of a sudden, this is one of those shows where it's like, they show skateboarding
33:55
and there's music videos and then more skateboarding than music videos and then there'd be like
33:58
some evangelist, you know, talk about something, right?
34:01
I hear the introduction to Southtown and it's like this slow kind of building all.
34:08
And then this is like 11 o'clock at night.
34:10
I'm supposed to be in bed.
34:11
I just became a Christian, you know, no one else in my family is a Christian.
34:14
I'm trying to figure out what all this means.
34:15
So I know I'm going to church the next day.
34:18
And then the introduction of that song hits and I'm just like, whoa, whoa, wait, I thought
34:23
this was a Christian channel.
34:24
What is this?
34:25
This dude has dreads.
34:26
Those are against the rules.
34:27
Like all, like all the things, right?
34:29
And I just remember feeling like something had changed because again, you're in middle
34:33
school.
34:34
So everything's important, right?
34:35
Because you're an idiot.
34:36
But like in that moment, I feel like it kind of shaped where I was going to go as a Christian,
34:42
as a pertain to entertainment because I can point back to like probably four albums that
34:48
I feel like molded my taste of music.
34:51
So it's Zayo or blood and fire bring rest.
34:54
It's reborn by living sacrifice.
34:57
It was hybrid bit theory by Lincoln Park and it was the fundamental element to Southtown
35:01
by POD because the next morning I go to Sunday school and I try to tell my buddies about
35:06
this, this, this band, POD and they're like, oh yeah, we already know.
35:10
And my buddy had the album and he had the album with the original artwork, not the one
35:14
with like the one where you get right.
35:17
So the original artwork and then I take it home and it's like, you know, there's there's
35:20
hip hop on here and then there's, you know, there's this kind of like, you know, centralized
35:24
to Zion thing.
35:25
And then we're also rocking the party somehow like how I don't understand what's happening
35:28
in this album.
35:29
But let's go back to the fundamental elements of Southtown.
35:32
This is 1999.
35:34
You guys are really snuff the pump.
35:35
You've already sprung out like you've already got kind of this cult following the Warriors
35:39
as you call them.
35:40
But all of a sudden you guys hit the mainstream, but you went with Southtown.
35:44
That song first when rock the party was going to be the hit and everyone kind of knew it.
35:49
So take us back to that era when y'all were making the fundamental elements of Southtown.
35:53
Did y'all know that something fundamentally different was happening that this was about
35:57
the hit?
35:58
I mean, we didn't know it was going to hit, you know, we were just unapologetically being
36:06
ourselves.
36:07
And it was like, obviously when we rock the party, we were like, you know what, let's
36:10
kind of keep a little more universal vibe open, a more beastie boy is kind of fun.
36:17
Because if we were just made heavy records, you know, we were still into the heavy scene.
36:23
And at that point, you know, we, Southtown was a huge representation of who we were,
36:29
you know, where we come from, our music style.
36:33
And we toured that.
36:34
And then, but we knew that if anything, we had, if we might have a chance of the little
36:38
crossover, it would be rock the party.
36:40
But, and I don't even know if it was the music per se, it was, a lot of it was visually.
36:45
It was just the, the video that we put out, you know, because we purposely included every
36:51
walk of life.
36:53
If you look at the video, we're, we're in this bus and we're just picking up every walk
36:56
of life.
36:57
But we're trying to break all those stereotypes that we were already going through from, you
37:01
know, from racism to religious boundaries to all these things that we're talking about.
37:06
And we're saying, Hey, we're, we're, we're taking everybody.
37:09
All is welcome to jump on this bus and go where we're going, right?
37:13
And a lot of it was hidden messages, you know, one of the main lines in rock the party was
37:18
like, spread his, spread his love is the master plan.
37:21
And it's like, we knew that we had to be very mindful in how we, we, we came at it because
37:27
we didn't want to be lumped in as a Christian band.
37:30
We didn't want to be just sold in Christian bookstores.
37:33
We didn't want to play just Christian, you know, churches.
37:36
And we weren't, you know, so we were, we were going through all that.
37:39
But then anyways, I think because we were just being ourselves that the world was ready
37:44
for that, and, but not only that, we always knew that whenever we played with all these
37:50
secular bands, hey, if we were going to be vocal about our Jesus, then we had to be
37:54
10 times better than they were because we knew that we were going to be judged because
37:59
we said Jesus or because that we were Christians.
38:01
And so, you know, yeah, I mean, you have to be excellent.
38:06
And that I think that record was excellent.
38:08
I think it hit every checkbox that we needed at that point.
38:12
And, and obviously when we got in front of the MTVs and the certain Carson Dailies of
38:17
the world, we were, you know, we were honest about who we were.
38:20
And I was like, hey, this is where we come from, but we love Jesus, man.
38:22
And, but we also didn't want that to close people's hearts, ears and minds off to, to
38:30
us as a band either, you know, right?
38:33
Well, I remember being at that time, like rushing home after school to get in front
38:37
of the screen for TRL to see if Rock the party had made it to number one yet and all that
38:40
like I was there for all that, but you know how it goes.
38:44
It's kind of like right now with, you know, Netflix or whatever, it's like, it takes
38:47
someone three years to make a show.
38:49
You watch the entire season and a weekend and you're like, well, when season two come
38:53
out, this is bull crap.
38:54
It's like, rather, can you like chill for a second?
38:56
So you got the fundamental elements of Southtown.
38:59
You got some notoriety, quite a bit of notoriety, you're touring, you're, you're making a good
39:03
living.
39:04
But now it's like, okay, we got the follow up out.
39:05
You know, you already had albums, right?
39:07
Everyone looks at that album.
39:08
Like Gels first, like, you know, album, right?
39:10
But then you got satellite.
39:11
I remember the run up to satellite, okay, 2001, I'm in like 10th grade or something
39:17
like that.
39:18
And I'm sitting in English class and then on the day the album releases was the terrorist
39:23
attacks that took place in New York City and Pennsylvania, okay?
39:26
And so obviously everyone kind of has to shut the entire world shut down for a little bit.
39:31
But certainly the marketing machines shut down, you know, boom, which is a song that
39:35
a lot of people, even if they don't know the name of the band, they know the song, that
39:39
song got blacklisted on, on the radio and different things like that.
39:43
Because obviously you can't have a song called Boom Around That Time.
39:46
You know, there was some sensitivity to certain words, obviously.
39:49
So the lead track alive became, I don't know, maybe else biggest track of all time.
39:54
But just, I guess I want to know, Sonny, did y'all have any doubts that you were going
39:59
to be able to follow up the, the fundamental elements of Southtown?
40:02
Because that, again, that album had so many different vibes that it hit to where it checked
40:06
the box.
40:07
Like there was a freestyle in the middle of one of the songs, right?
40:09
And then you get to satellites like, okay, we, we got to put on our big boy pants and
40:13
we got to release a banger.
40:14
Like, was there any doubt that y'all were going to make it happen?
40:18
I don't think we had that pressure, man.
40:19
I think the fact that fundamental elements sold a million copies, bro, we could have just
40:24
quit then because we had no idea that right with that, that was going to happen that it's
40:31
because it didn't start that way when Southtown came out, it was such a slow ride.
40:34
It wasn't until we got on MTV, like everything that you're saying, but that was proven and
40:38
that was undeniable because that wasn't, you couldn't make shift that people had to get
40:43
on their phones.
40:44
There were no cell phones back then.
40:45
They had to go from four o'clock to five o'clock Eastern time, whatever and get on their phones
40:51
and dial up and say, my vote is for POD rock the party.
40:54
So that was undeniable and that just again shows you the power of the unity of the warriors
41:02
and the people that loved our band because it was because of them voting.
41:07
It was undeniable that the producers and everybody of MTV had to say, who in the world
41:12
is POD?
41:13
They just hit the top 10 total request live videos.
41:17
Who the heck is this band?
41:19
And so it was undeniable, bro, you know, it was undeniable.
41:22
They had to pay attention and then when rock the party went number one again, we were still
41:26
like a no-name band.
41:27
I mean, we were around for a while, but in the mainstream, we were competing against
41:32
the corn of the world and lit biscuit.
41:34
So to have POD come, that was insane.
41:38
So we could have ended it right there, but when satellite came out, it wasn't pressure,
41:42
but I believe that we earned every, we earned those million records sold and I knew at least
41:48
with satellite, we would at least do that because we earned it, right?
41:52
It just didn't happen.
41:53
We earned it.
41:54
And so when obviously 9/11 and all the different components to that, I mean, that album sold
42:02
millions and millions of records and then it ended up going across the sea, which we ended
42:07
up becoming a worldwide band because of that record.
42:10
Yeah, because that record you're able to tour Europe because I mean, that's an completely
42:14
different thing.
42:15
There are bands that tour Europe that just can't, they can't sell out shows.
42:18
Here in the same kind of vice versa, it's just a little bit of a different world, but
42:21
you brought up corn there and you brought up, you know, touring with secular bands.
42:25
I remember where I was when I heard that you guys were going to be touring with corn.
42:30
I was sitting in the Hastings parking lot in Lott, Oklahoma and I don't know how I got
42:35
this information.
42:36
And, but Sonny, again, young believer, I don't have anyone discipling me very immature in
42:42
my thoughts and no one to bounce anything off, I remember being crushed.
42:46
I'm like, Oh, no, like my little, my little metal band that loves Jesus, you know, that
42:54
I could, you know, curl up and put my pocket right and take with me everywhere into church
42:58
and no one would be too offended.
43:00
All of a sudden you're touring with the devil, right?
43:03
Yeah.
43:04
You may have been touring with five Maryland mansions.
43:06
That's basically what corn was like, right?
43:08
You couldn't, you couldn't tell your parents that you listened to corn if you also went
43:11
to church to get that's also against the rules.
43:14
But some that came up here recently, there was a worship band that was playing a festival
43:20
thing at Red Rocks up in Colorado.
43:23
And they were playing with a group that's from a church that's very theologically kind
43:27
of crazy.
43:28
They do a lot of heretical things.
43:29
And one of my buddies was like, Hey, this worship and you actually quoted a Shane and
43:33
Shane lyric towards the end of your book.
43:35
I forget what, what thing you were quoting some worship song.
43:37
It's a Shane and Shane song.
43:38
And he's like, Shane, Shane shouldn't play that show.
43:40
They should protest.
43:41
He's like, brother, if Guar and Marilyn Manson and Bahiman and Slayer wanted Shane and Shane
43:47
to come on tour with them, like and sing their Jesus songs.
43:51
You take that deal 100 times out of 100, but at the time, y'all were getting busted up
43:56
for that decision to go and do that.
43:59
So, so kind of take me through that because obviously to be asked by corn to come on tour
44:03
is a huge deal, but then you have people that feel almost betrayed like, Oh, do you not
44:07
love Jesus anymore?
44:08
You just love touring with big bands.
44:09
So take us through that.
44:11
Right.
44:12
You said it though.
44:13
I think it's trying to keep us in a box and, but it's like that with anything.
44:16
I mean, some, some people didn't like the fact that we went mainstream.
44:19
The fact that we were on MTV, they liked having us, you know, and that wasn't even necessary
44:24
a Christian thing.
44:25
It was just sometimes they just want you to be underground.
44:26
They want you to be unknown because they know who you are.
44:30
They don't want you going off and then having more fans and people loving you the way they
44:34
do.
44:35
You know, but we were already receiving that before.
44:38
I remember the first time we had played with some big rock show in North Cali.
44:43
We flew in and I think Marilyn Manson was headlining in and at the time he was the devil
44:47
himself.
44:48
Right.
44:49
And so as soon as we drove into this, this parking lot, we see all the picketing signs
44:54
and we were like, Oh, check it out.
44:55
You know that all those people picketing Marilyn Manson and then as soon as we get closer and
45:00
closer, all of a sudden we see that there were, there was Christians picketing us and
45:05
they were saying POD is not of God, PODs of the devil and all that, you know, because
45:09
in their minds, like how could you play with Marilyn Manson?
45:12
But my thinking was completely different.
45:14
Mike, Mike, Mike, bro, if I got a call from the church of Satan right now that said we
45:19
want you to come and share your testimony, let's go, I would go.
45:24
That doesn't make sense to me.
45:25
And I'm not saying that any of these guys are the church of Satan, you know what I mean?
45:29
But at the time, but that's, but that shows you how even Christians, it shows how afraid
45:35
they were.
45:36
I'm afraid of their own shadows.
45:37
They are that this person, but they did that with Alice Cooper.
45:41
You know what I mean?
45:42
I was Cooper.
45:43
Alice Cooper is full on born again Christian now.
45:45
You know, people don't know what even about Marilyn Manson, but everything that he's going
45:48
to right now in his life is leaning him straight to Jesus, dude.
45:52
So it's like, or when, when, when, when, when people found out that I think it was Brian
45:57
head.
45:58
Well, she, he got sick of people asking him why he went back to corn and so, and one interview,
46:02
he said, they said, why did you go back to corny?
46:05
He said, just blame it on signing from POD.
46:07
That's right.
46:08
You know how many DMs I got saying I can't believe and then they wanted to crucify me,
46:15
bro.
46:16
And I was like, this isn't, this isn't saying because you, and you don't get it or I've
46:21
had pastors say, Hey, you think I'm, you can get me tickets to go.
46:25
I wanted to go see corn and when, when Brian first went back and I was like, yeah, I'll
46:29
get you tickets.
46:30
He passes though, because I'm not going to have you go back there and freaking weird
46:33
everybody out.
46:34
Right?
46:35
So I got you tickets and you can go.
46:37
And then they come back and then they're like, yeah, it was cool, but what do you think
46:42
about that?
46:43
And there's so much cussing and they're so, so offended by the littlest of things.
46:46
And I'm like, you know what, bro, I go one day, I said, when every single person and every,
46:54
every band member of corn gives their life to Jesus, this conversation is going to be
46:58
meaningless, bro.
46:59
Yeah, you got filled in.
47:00
You got a head.
47:01
Yeah.
47:02
The rest are coming.
47:03
Yeah.
47:04
Look at what they're coming in.
47:05
Exactly.
47:06
And even monkey in there, they're sobering.
47:07
And I'm not saying that's all but that's not because of head.
47:10
I'm just saying it was just him going back to his brothers and saying, I love you.
47:14
And, and you know, and I would talk to head all the time.
47:17
I was like, did it?
47:18
You just have to let them see who you are and their brothers, they love each other.
47:23
And but, but, but isn't God bigger than all of your, your thoughts, you know?
47:27
So I would just tell people when they're like, what do you think about ahead?
47:29
And I'm like, I don't know, bro, pray for them, pray about it.
47:33
Stop, you know, you don't need to go and, and, and do a sermon about it.
47:36
And I don't want to hear your opinion, just, just pray about it.
47:40
Well, so.
47:41
Well, I remember I forget who is wearing the, it may have been you in the South time video,
47:46
some way it was wearing a blind side shirt.
47:48
Uh, I think all of us were in a Zayo, uh, uh, jersey or whatever.
47:53
It was anyway.
47:54
That matters.
47:55
It was me.
47:56
Okay.
47:57
Yeah.
47:58
I can't remember who all who all had it.
47:59
Um, blind side, I remember one of my buddies hanging out with blind side after a show they
48:04
had done here.
48:05
And I think they're from Sweden or whatever.
48:06
And all those guys, like they were cussing and smoking cigarettes and drinking beer and
48:09
all that.
48:10
And this was like a, you know, a youth group kid.
48:12
And for the first time, it wasn't like, oh, I can act out in these ways.
48:16
And it's acceptable.
48:17
It's just that these guys were from a different type of Christianity than the South, then conservative
48:23
rural Oklahoma.
48:24
Yeah.
48:25
And like, but those guys absolutely were in love with the Lord and when you're in love
48:30
with the Lord, you do some bad stuff like hello, King David, murderer, rapist, like
48:34
do we remember that guy?
48:36
Um, and he seemed to be an important guy in the line of the line of Judah if, uh, if you
48:40
recall.
48:41
Yeah.
48:42
So all right.
48:43
So let's, let's get back in the interview here.
48:44
So, um, I, I was, I didn't know whether or not to bring up the whole, everything that
48:47
went up with Marcos and everything like that.
48:49
But I feel like you did a really good job of covering it fairly in the book.
48:53
And I don't want us to own short time to be, you know, looking back at it.
48:56
So I, I got a Marcos question later, but we have, you know, after satellite, uh, you've
49:01
got payable on death, that album with a new guitarist, I happen to love that album.
49:05
That's one of my favorite albums that y'all've done.
49:06
I just love the sound of it.
49:07
And so hearing kind of the in between, like trying to figure out the vibe thing is interesting
49:12
to me because I, I got it for whatever reason I got it from the beginning, but yet some
49:16
more album artwork controversy on that one, but I want to fast forward to 2006 with testify.
49:21
Okay.
49:22
So I didn't realize that the, the, the artwork was like, uh, almost like a little middle
49:27
finger you were given to some Christian bookstores, but again, you got to get the book.
49:30
But with this album, you guys technically introduced the world to two artists that no
49:37
one really knew about at the time.
49:38
And that's Madison Yahoo and Katy Perry of all people.
49:41
So Katy Perry, uh, did a little bit on goodbye for now.
49:46
But then I knew about Madison Yahoo because I had his live stubs album, right?
49:49
Like my friends had passed that around.
49:51
Yeah.
49:52
And the two songs that y'all did on that record, so it would have been roots and stereo and
49:56
strength of my life and ones like super high energy, you know, let's lead off the album,
50:01
kick it off.
50:02
And then one's more like super toned down a little, like more kind of that chill reggae
50:06
style.
50:07
And I just remember thinking to myself, okay, Madison Yahoo either just needs to join the
50:11
band permanently or y'all just need to like create a whole album.
50:15
I could not believe how good y'all sounded together and how y'all's at that time at
50:22
least because he has obviously gone off and done, you know, some different stuff, but
50:24
how y'all sound just kind of melded together.
50:27
So how in the world did y'all get this like, you know, Orthodox Jewish guy from New York
50:32
to end up recording some records with you guys?
50:35
Yeah.
50:36
And at the same time too, I don't even think he had released any albums.
50:40
It was just that live at stubs and we knew about them because some old friends of ours
50:44
shout out to Matt and Andrea.
50:45
They turned us on to modest and, you know, already we were like, okay, we already get
50:51
criticized by the religious Christian community, you know, our dreadlocks.
50:56
Are we are we rosters that we believe in Rastafari, all this stuff.
51:00
And we're doing reggae music, you know, to them even reggae music of God, right?
51:03
It's just a pot smoking music.
51:06
So it's just silly.
51:08
Anyways, in a way it was kind of like, let's do it.
51:10
Let's do something with not only are we doing a anti God music of reggae music.
51:19
Let's do it with an Orthodox Jew.
51:22
Let's take it over the top and confuse everybody because he was a reggae artist.
51:27
But I mean, all kidding aside, it was more like, this guy is awesome.
51:30
We love him the first time I, you know, I got his number like he called me and he was
51:35
actually in Jerusalem at the time.
51:36
And, and I just said, bro, we really love to have you on a track.
51:40
And, but you know, the roots and steroids, it's rock and roll, but obviously it has our
51:43
elements of reggae.
51:44
So that's why his voice blends so much.
51:46
But after we did that track, we had so much fun.
51:49
We were doing it.
51:50
We wrote strength of my life on the spot because we were like, we can't let you leave
51:54
the studio without listening.
51:55
That's right.
51:56
Yeah.
51:57
So we did it right there.
51:58
And if you listen to his lyrics, he went right in, grabbed his Torah.
52:00
He's taking, he's taking Psalms, right?
52:02
And he's writing them and we just, we, we freestyle kind of really freestyle that, that
52:07
day because we only had them for the day, you know?
52:10
But that was just to show like, this is our love for our Jewish community.
52:13
You know, this is our love for our brother here and we've been friends ever since.
52:17
Yeah.
52:18
I thought it was incredible.
52:19
I mean, of, of y'all's entire canon, like, I mean, it's kind of hard to get into ranking
52:23
because even though I'm going to make you do it here in a second, I feel like strength
52:26
of my life is maybe my second favorite song y'all have ever done and to realize how quickly
52:32
y'all threw it together because here's the thing, there are sometimes when collabs are
52:36
forced and they feel like it.
52:38
I'm not going to name any because I don't want to step on eight toes or offend anybody.
52:41
But it's like you get these two hours together and you're thinking, oh, this is going to
52:43
be great.
52:44
It was like this person clearly recorded their part in their studio at their house and this
52:50
the band was over here doing their thing and then some producer thought he was smooth enough
52:53
to mush it together and it just didn't really work out.
52:56
It just it felt it just felt like the perfect collab.
52:59
I just remember when I heard I was like, this is just perfect, but I want to kind of fast
53:03
forward.
53:04
You know, we've talked a lot about the music, but at some point you get into all the detail
53:07
in the book again, guys, we get the books on a Southtown, it's on the show notes.
53:10
But at some point you take a year off from POD, but at the time you didn't know you were
53:14
taking a year off.
53:15
Okay.
53:16
You know, looking back, obviously you can, you know, add up the months and realize how
53:19
long you were gone.
53:21
But although you weren't making music and actively touring and doing kind of the normal
53:26
road warrior thing, you were still wanting to reach people for Christ, right?
53:31
But you didn't have your microphone in front of you like you normally did.
53:35
But then you started something you were one of the co-founders or something called the
53:39
whosoever's, which is one of those things that it's a non-typical gospel centered ministry
53:45
that most people that went to Bible school or some theological place probably wouldn't
53:50
have came up with the idea of how you guys are reaching Jesus because of how raw it is
53:55
because you're reaching out to like kind of skate park kids, you know, the kids that aren't
53:59
playing football and on scholarship or something else with their time.
54:04
And so let's just talk about that year off and how you felt like God was pushing you
54:09
to start something which became the whosoever's.
54:12
I mean, even in that time off was just me trying to reconnect with God and, you know,
54:16
and it was just, again, even falling back into that mind thought of like, maybe I'm
54:21
not the season of God and maybe I wasn't supposed to do this and maybe I should be a pastor.
54:26
You start thinking all this stuff and then, but at the time, I really just needed real
54:32
people around me or I don't need, you know, those that speak Christianese and people that
54:37
can't relate to my life.
54:39
And the thing is I'm surrounded by lots of men and women that are the same way.
54:45
They just want to love God, but they work in the real world.
54:48
They're doing, you know, they're artists, musicians and they just want to love God and
54:52
not thinking they have to quit everything that they're doing, throw away their entire
54:56
life and go be a missionary somewhere because that's what you do if you're a Christian,
55:02
right?
55:03
And so that it was.
55:04
It was the Brian head watches of the world.
55:05
You know, Lacey Sturm, guys from the metal militia, my boy, Ryan Rees.
55:10
And it never set out to be a ministry.
55:13
Like I still even have a, I still get a when I say that word, because the way the world
55:19
views it, right?
55:20
It was just us being, it was more of a brotherhood, a sisterhood, just saying, Hey, man, I need
55:24
you.
55:25
You know, and let's walk together and let's keep each other accountable.
55:29
And the moment we started to share our stories, it was obvious that that's what these kids
55:34
were looking for, because, you know, so we would go into these places and just for the
55:40
fact that we actually were in a band, it made kids listen to us one minute longer than they
55:45
would, you know, some straight lace youth group guy that walked in and say, Hey guys,
55:50
and, and he doesn't know how to relate to worldly kids or just the world in general,
55:55
because he's been, you know, God bless him.
55:58
He's been, he's been in the youth group and that's awesome.
56:00
I love youth pastors, but, you know, you can't just walk into a skate park or a rock and
56:07
roll venue and start and just already relate to kids, you know, and it's not like we set
56:12
out to do that.
56:13
It's just who we are.
56:14
So you do everybody just stay in your lane and be the best in your lane.
56:19
And so for us, it was going into these rehabs.
56:21
It was going into these detention centers and just saying, Hey, this is, you know, this
56:26
is what I, who I am.
56:27
This is my struggles.
56:28
This is what I've been caught up in.
56:31
This is what God saved me from.
56:32
He's rescued me.
56:33
He wants to deliver you.
56:34
He wants to save you.
56:35
He wants to be your God.
56:36
And kids just listen to us.
56:37
And then it just opened up into going into schools and, and, and all kinds of different
56:41
places.
56:42
And it's been man over 15 years now that we've been, this brotherhood has really just expanded
56:48
all over the world now.
56:50
We now we have people, you know, brothers and sisters that are running with the torch
56:53
and going into schools and skate parks all over the world, giving, giving away stuff,
57:01
feeding them and skating with them because they can, you know, and then all of a sudden
57:06
once they gain the kids respect, because, you know, you see these guys doing all these
57:10
amazing skate tricks, the kids, they love them.
57:12
They're like, I want to hear what this guy has to say.
57:15
And the moment, you know, he gets on the mic, he just says, I love you guys.
57:19
Thank you for coming out.
57:20
I just want to tell you about Jesus real quick.
57:21
These kids listen, and that's, that's how simple it is.
57:25
There's no, it doesn't have to be these big crusades and all this love, although those
57:29
are great too.
57:31
But these are our people, these are our culture that we can just go in, you know, and I would
57:36
probably feel just as uncomfortable or just as uncomfortable walking into a Hillsong spot.
57:42
I would probably be just as uncomfortable because I'm used to walking into a rock and
57:46
roping you and those are my people, those are my friends, those are the people that I'd love.
57:51
And those are the people that I want to see come to know God, man.
57:54
That's it.
57:55
Well, Sonny, it's multiplication by division.
57:58
And what I mean by that is recently I was studying through acts and you've got Paul and Barnabas
58:02
that are arguing over John Mark, because John Mark was a homesteader, someone's going all
58:06
with this dude, right?
58:08
And so they end up having a prolonged conflict and then they ended up splitting and you would
58:14
think in a worldly context, oh my gosh, bad news, they've split up.
58:18
This has been a divorce of ministry.
58:19
No, no, no, they wanted to do ministry differently.
58:22
And guess what?
58:23
They did.
58:24
And the gospel was spread.
58:25
So guys, don't listen, don't hear what we're not saying.
58:28
We're not saying if you go to a straight lace Southern Baptist convention, the crusade that
58:32
that's bad.
58:33
We're saying to the street kid that likes to skateboard and, you know, getting fights
58:38
or whatever the thing is, it's just different like, bro, do you know how many people I've
58:42
shared the gospel with recently that listened to me and later said, bro, I just saw your
58:46
cauliflower ear and I figured, you know, you had seen some things.
58:50
And I was like, okay, like I can't help that my face looks like this, but it does look
58:54
like this.
58:55
I didn't get this way from doing my taxes.
58:56
And so this person was willing to give me a little bit more of a listen, you know what
59:00
I mean?
59:01
Perfect.
59:02
Perfect example, bro.
59:03
Perfect example.
59:04
They see physically, I know what this dude is because I'm that too and they'll listen
59:09
to you, but if a tax guy came in and said, hey, let me tell you something like that.
59:14
I'm not good at math, bro.
59:15
You know what I mean?
59:16
I can't.
59:17
And maybe not.
59:18
Yeah, maybe not.
59:19
Maybe that's the perfect person, but that's up to God.
59:22
It's, you know, we're not knocking, you know, the way they've done in the past.
59:26
And if that's again, if that's your gig, then more power to you, I just don't want those
59:32
people coming up and I'm sick of them saying this is not of God because time and time,
59:36
it's proven that it is, bro, and you were wrong.
59:40
And unfortunately, you're too self-righteous to even come and apologize or even to say,
59:44
dude, I was wrong or even see it that it actually could be of God.
59:48
And there are some that are like, man, I, yeah, that's awesome.
59:52
I, you know, there's people that see it that have been, we call them the old wineskins and
59:57
they finally look and be like, you know what, that's, I love what you guys are doing.
1:00:01
I support you 100%.
1:00:02
Well, hey, man, because I'm, I'm a Christian and I'm in, I get asked to speak at men's
1:00:08
events and we have the number one podcast in the world for Christian men.
1:00:11
Like I'm constantly asked about men's ministry and I used to just answer those questions,
1:00:14
but now I'm like, I don't even like the term anymore because when someone says men's ministry,
1:00:18
they think a bunch of dudes sitting in a circle, sharing their feelings and crying during
1:00:22
Bible study.
1:00:23
And I'm not saying if that's what you're doing that you're not honoring God, but I'm
1:00:26
saying a lot of the dudes that listen to this show that doesn't speak to them in the same
1:00:30
way.
1:00:31
You've broken down physically before I can reach their minds, before I can even start
1:00:34
to reach their spirits.
1:00:36
And so it's just, it's a different way of approaching the gospel.
1:00:39
And we see plenty of examples of that as we read through the New Testament.
1:00:43
So just, I guess to put a little bit of a bow on this before we do a little lightning
1:00:47
round stuff.
1:00:48
I plan to make you super uncomfortable during the lightning round.
1:00:50
But you do come back to the band.
1:00:53
So does Marcos.
1:00:54
But what is not a part of the band anymore and you're kind of, you know, you kind of
1:00:58
kept it gray in the book as to why the new music that you guys have put out with Veritas
1:01:03
and things like that's not really featuring a drummer like in music videos and things
1:01:06
like that.
1:01:07
It's just kind of like, but you've mentioned, I think the phrase you use was new individualized
1:01:13
mission mindset.
1:01:15
When you came back into the band, you realized that I am one member of the band and we don't
1:01:19
have a band mission.
1:01:20
We all have individual missions within this band, but that obviously is going to affect
1:01:25
how POD makes music moving forward as we continue in the streaming revolution.
1:01:30
I mean, you guys came all the way from, you know, demo cassettes all the way through CDs
1:01:33
and now you're in the streaming revolution.
1:01:35
But for you guys, what does the future of POD look like, especially with, you know, Marcos's
1:01:40
back and trays there, but, you know, the drummer thing's kind of, it's weird that no one really
1:01:44
knows exactly what's going on and where's what and, but what does it look like in this
1:01:49
kind of like next chapter of Payable on Death?
1:01:52
I mean, it just kind of goes along with the theme of the book that I'm wearing that we're
1:01:56
in a moment and we're in a moment of life that we're walking through.
1:01:59
And this is real life, you know, we can, I can write it different.
1:02:04
We can speak of it differently, but dude, we're going through real things together.
1:02:07
You know, and some of us are, you know, having a harder time in this season of life than others.
1:02:14
And for that reason, my cousin is not with us right now.
1:02:17
The dude, the seat will always be his.
1:02:19
He's the drummer of this band.
1:02:20
He is one of the original members and we love him.
1:02:23
But he's in a season of life right now that he's figuring out things.
1:02:27
And so that's why we leave it there.
1:02:28
And so, but at the same time, we feel like we still have some music to get out in the
1:02:33
meantime, you know, we've been doing this for so long.
1:02:37
And as far as we're going, nothing, nothing stopped.
1:02:40
I think we put out one of the best albums that we have in a long time and we're going
1:02:43
to be touring all of 2025 into 26.
1:02:47
So nothing is slowing down for us.
1:02:49
It's just adapting to how this industry has changed, how music has changed, everything
1:02:54
that you said, streaming, all these things, everything has changed.
1:02:57
And we're just trying to adapt as we go, but nothing's changed, you know, but you said
1:03:02
individually because everybody we're on, we're at different places in our life, you
1:03:07
know, and not everybody, we're not all the same and that's okay because other people
1:03:12
shine other ways.
1:03:13
But for me, I love, I do a lot of things in my community.
1:03:17
I love being a part of outreaches that go out to young people and to people in general,
1:03:21
that's because that's just my heart.
1:03:23
It's still the other guy's hearts as well, but they have other things that they do in
1:03:26
different ways.
1:03:27
But for me, this is just how I represent my faith in Jesus because some people are too
1:03:34
busy talking about it.
1:03:36
And I think the world is tired of people talking about it all the time.
1:03:40
You know what I mean?
1:03:41
It's like you can say, Oh, that person is starving while pray for you to find some food
1:03:45
or you could actually go make them a sandwich.
1:03:47
So either way, go be the food, either way.
1:03:50
So I'm me because, you know, I still get, I still had someone hit me up recently.
1:03:55
Why don't you guys say Jesus or why do you guys give all to call it and show us like
1:03:58
because it's a metal fast bro and no one wants it like it's easy.
1:04:03
But I do things in my normal day, everyday life that say I love Jesus.
1:04:09
I represent Jesus and Jesus loves you.
1:04:12
And so I just try to be active and what I do and that doesn't make me any better than
1:04:17
anyone else do.
1:04:18
That's just me trying to.
1:04:21
I'm just grateful.
1:04:22
I'm grateful to God.
1:04:23
That's it.
1:04:24
Well, man, we're at our allotted time, but you got another five or 10 minutes for some
1:04:28
lightning round questions.
1:04:29
Okay.
1:04:30
So if you could have one do over, so this could be a song or an album, but if you look back
1:04:35
at everything you've done, okay?
1:04:37
So as an example, Zao, their self-titled album, all the drums are on a electric electronic
1:04:42
drum set and every member of the band except for Jesse, like, hates it.
1:04:47
They think it sounds terrible.
1:04:48
But if there's one artistic do over that you could get, what would it be?
1:04:52
That's that's too hard, dude.
1:04:54
I know.
1:04:55
See, this is the uncomfortable part.
1:04:56
Yeah, I've just been your buddy for the last hour.
1:04:59
It would be it would be the those that stuff to punk record.
1:05:02
Like I look back and I can't I can't hate on it too much because we already covered it.
1:05:06
We were young and immature and just, but I would love to redo a lot of that stuff lyrically,
1:05:13
just, you know, lyrically, yeah.
1:05:16
But man, it still gets you going.
1:05:17
It's just fun.
1:05:18
Let's do it.
1:05:19
Okay.
1:05:20
All right.
1:05:21
Now we got to go to your Mount Rushmore, a POD album.
1:05:24
So while you think of your four albums, I'll give you mine.
1:05:26
Okay.
1:05:27
And I've got a reason for each one.
1:05:28
So fundamental elements of Southtown.
1:05:30
That's just nostalgia.
1:05:31
That's my favorite record.
1:05:32
Y'all done satellite biggest record that y'all have done.
1:05:34
So it's got to be out there.
1:05:36
Available on death.
1:05:37
I loved the new sound.
1:05:38
I was worried to death and then I listened to the album and I was like, Oh, thank God,
1:05:41
it sounds great.
1:05:42
And then surprise.
1:05:43
So Cal sessions.
1:05:45
I love that record so much because when I'm not feeling like I want to people on the
1:05:51
face, I can put that on and vibe with it.
1:05:54
Okay.
1:05:55
So those are my four.
1:05:56
But if you had to pick four, right, four albums for the POD Mount Rushmore, what would
1:06:02
they be?
1:06:03
Over my head, I would say, yeah, fundamental, satellite, murder, love, and veritas right
1:06:08
now.
1:06:09
Okay.
1:06:10
Now, that's going to make, we're going to make it even more uncomfortable.
1:06:13
Okay.
1:06:15
You have to delete from the collective memory of humanity every album that you guys have
1:06:20
ever made.
1:06:21
And 500 years from now, when we look back on this time in history, there is only one
1:06:25
POD album that is made it through equity.
1:06:29
What is the one album that you're leaving for humanity?
1:06:32
You get one.
1:06:33
Oh, man.
1:06:34
That's so unfair.
1:06:35
Yep.
1:06:36
Because it is.
1:06:37
That's why I'm asking.
1:06:38
I mean, for all reasons, it would have to be satellite because that's our anthems.
1:06:43
I mean, that's, that's, and I'm not saying it's because of that record.
1:06:46
It's just how the world viewed it and how it, they took those songs and there's those
1:06:50
songs are anthems.
1:06:51
Everywhere we go around the world, you know, there's, there's always a handful of songs
1:06:55
on that record that we, we play every single time because they become anthems.
1:06:59
Yeah.
1:07:00
All right.
1:07:01
So one would be fundamental, but I get why you do yours.
1:07:03
So, but now we're just going to say screw it.
1:07:06
We're burning the ships here.
1:07:08
You leave one song for humanity, right?
1:07:13
So everything else from y'all's catalog, the dozens and dozens of songs, the millions
1:07:17
of records sold, all the singles, all the, what not you get one song that humanity gets
1:07:23
to remember your band by.
1:07:25
What's the song?
1:07:26
It's gotta be, it's gotta be Southtown guys, you knew, you knew that was going to be the
1:07:32
answer.
1:07:33
You absolutely knew a little man.
1:07:34
I've got other questions, but we're out of time.
1:07:35
I thought this was awesome, but I actually do want to read, I don't think I'm ruining
1:07:39
the ending for anybody, but I do want to read the very ending of Son of Southtown because
1:07:43
I think it puts a fine point on the conversation we've had and also the work that you've done.
1:07:48
Way back in my beginnings in Southtown, I felt the options were limited of where I might
1:07:52
go and who I might become, but I was determined not to be a statistic.
1:07:56
God took that determination and put me where he wanted me to be.
1:08:00
That is true to this day.
1:08:01
Life may have given me some bumps along the way, but I'm loving and trusting where God
1:08:05
has me now.
1:08:06
And as always, my trajectory is on to the next adventure with him.
1:08:11
So Sonny, I feel like you've embodied that through your career, obviously, unless you're
1:08:15
just completely fitting the whole way through this book, it seems like you've embodied that
1:08:18
as well.
1:08:19
But that's all for me.
1:08:20
Anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:08:22
No, bro.
1:08:23
I'm so grateful that we took this time and it was, this was awesome.
1:08:26
Thank you for having an honest and awesome conversation and I look forward to doing it
1:08:29
again, man.
1:08:30
Appreciate you.
1:08:31
All right.
1:08:32
Sounds good.
1:08:33
All right, brother.
1:08:34
There you go.
1:08:35
Guys.
1:08:36
I hope you enjoyed my time with Sonny Sandoval, but before we let you go, we are going to do
1:08:37
a quick resilience boost.
1:08:39
Add on Dawn to life or mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
1:08:42
forges spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:08:44
The links I've got for you today.
1:08:45
I've got a link to Amazon where you can buy your copy of Son of Southtown, which is out
1:08:48
right now.
1:08:49
I've also got a link to POD's website and the website for the who so ever's.
1:08:54
Thank you for listening to this podcast.
1:08:55
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five
1:08:58
star review.
1:08:59
If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info
1:09:03
at undonton.life.
1:09:05
That's I N F O at undonton.life follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check
1:09:09
out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this
1:09:12
coming your way.
1:09:13
Just go to www.undonton.life and as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing
1:09:18
us to use their music for our content.
1:09:20
The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album
1:09:24
on Face Down Records.
1:09:25
The links are in the description.
1:09:27
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
1:09:29
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:09:36
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:09:48
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