0:00
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:21
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:23
Let's get into it.
0:24
I guys today, we've got a special interview for you today and it is with two guys.
0:27
It is with Sean Carney and Steve Carlin.
0:29
Both of them work for 40 days for life.
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40 days for life is an international anti-abortion organization that campaigns against baby murder
0:35
in more than 60 countries.
0:37
So Sean Carney is the CEO and president of 40 days for life.
0:40
He is also the co-founder.
0:41
He helped co-found the organization back in 2004 and he's written now four best-selling
0:45
books and he was depicted in the pro-life movie Unplanned.
0:48
I actually did an entire episode on that movie and that book back on episode 70 of this podcast
0:53
and then Steve Carlin is a campaign director for 40 days for life.
0:56
He's an author and a co-host of the 40 days for life podcast.
0:59
Both of these guys are sought after pro-life speakers and they're actually co-authors
1:03
of the new best-selling book called What to Say When, The Complete New Guide to Discussing
1:08
Abortion, How to Change Minds and Convert Hearts in a Brave New World.
1:11
And the foreword by that book was written by Matt Walsh of The Daily Wire.
1:14
Guys, this was a very good conversation because we got into a lot of specific topics in terms
1:20
of abortion and a lot of arguments in terms of abortion.
1:22
I've made reference to their arguments before on this podcast when I talked about how to
1:26
destroy a lot of pro-abortion arguments.
1:28
We get into some things that we didn't have a whole lot of time for but we got into in
1:31
vitro fertilization.
1:32
We got into when people say I believe life begins a conception.
1:35
A lot of great things.
1:36
Guys, there's so many good nuggets in this conversation.
1:38
Again, it's always interesting when you can get one guy on here to talk about this but
1:41
now there's two of these guys, they're very well versed on this.
1:44
They've spent literally hundreds if not thousands of hours debating people whether on a stage
1:48
or just in one-to-one conversation on the issue of abortion.
1:52
So they're very, very versed in this.
1:53
They know what they're doing.
1:54
So I don't want to keep them from you any longer, so without further ado, let's get
1:58
into it.
1:59
Sean Carney and Steve Carlin, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
2:02
Good to be here.
2:04
Thanks for having us.
2:05
I'm absolutely happy to have you guys here.
2:06
We're going to get into a lot of stuff here today but I always like to start a little
2:10
bit generic without being too lame.
2:12
The most generic way to start is there's not a whole lot of people that have dedicated
2:15
their life's work to the fight for the pre-born.
2:17
So in the most generic fashion possible, why did each of you get into this fight and make
2:22
it your life's calling?
2:24
That it was the right thing to do, not my plan and my wife or my answers to that.
2:32
Okay.
2:33
Very good.
2:34
Yeah.
2:35
Similarly here.
2:36
Similarly here.
2:37
I've always been pro-life for much of my life.
2:38
Never did anything about it.
2:39
And my wife had a friend who had an abortion.
2:41
That was sort of the wake-up call that got me off the couch and out to the sidewalk praying
2:45
in front of abortion facilities.
2:47
Okay.
2:48
Yeah.
2:49
And that's the thing that kind of leads to 40 days for life who you both work for and
2:52
it's a very large international anti-abortion organization that's been around since 2004.
2:57
So you guys know what you're doing, but Sean, you're the co-founder of this organization.
3:00
So give us some generic details on how the organization came to be and really what its
3:05
impact has been up to this point.
3:08
Well, we started it when I was in college.
3:10
I went to Texas A&M University and we just saw our abortion numbers going up.
3:15
So we just decided to go all in and do 40 days of prayer, fasting and a 24-hour vigil,
3:22
peaceful vigil outside of our Planned Parenthood in college station.
3:25
It was all men who took the night shift from 11 o'clock at night to 7 a.m. in the morning
3:30
for that 24-hour vigil.
3:32
And then in '07, following that '04 campaign, we saw so many cities wanting to do 40 days
3:39
for life.
3:40
So we launched it as a national effort in '07 and we do two campaigns a year.
3:44
The fall and in the spring during the season of Lent and it's just exploded and gone from
3:50
a college station, one city to 1,000 cities in 65 different countries.
3:55
And we now have over a million volunteers worldwide.
4:00
This past fall campaign, we had 612 cities doing 40 days for life all at once and that
4:06
was a record for us.
4:08
That's incredible.
4:09
So Steve, for you obviously you weren't there at the founding, but what was it that kind
4:11
of brought you to 40 days for life?
4:13
Well, as I mentioned, it was a personal encounter.
4:16
My wife's friend who had an abortion.
4:18
So I got involved in 40 days for life and one thing led to another and I was leading
4:22
as a volunteer, the local 40 days for life effort here in Madison, Wisconsin, where I
4:26
live.
4:27
And I got through that first 40-day vigil praying in front of the abortion facility
4:30
and was asked to take over leadership of the next year's campaign.
4:35
Before I knew it, my alma mater, the University of Wisconsin, was revealed to be secretly
4:40
plotting to be in the process of opening up a late-term abortion facility right on the
4:45
heart of our college campus.
4:46
We're talking about abortions that are so gruesome that the only countries on the planet
4:50
that allow them are countries like the US, Canada, Vietnam, China, and North Korea.
4:56
And so this was a situation where we're realizing, hey, it's a human rights list where we are
5:00
right in between China and North Korea.
5:02
That's not a good list to be on.
5:04
And so we ended up fighting it by the grace of God.
5:07
It took us a year and a half, but we prevented that late-term abortion facility from ever
5:11
opening.
5:12
And so that kind of just got me deeper and deeper involved as I saw how the Lord responds
5:16
very actively and very powerfully to prayer.
5:19
Absolutely.
5:20
And so for you guys as well, you're obviously very versed on the numbers about abortion,
5:23
but that's one thing that whenever I get into this discussion with people, even if they're
5:27
inside the church, they don't have the foggiest idea with the actual numbers of abortion
5:31
are in the United States or even internationally.
5:34
And I feel like the general public, again, even pro-lifers, they just, they don't know
5:37
how, any idea how insane the numbers are worldwide, like the sheer number of those.
5:41
So could y'all give us a little bit of a breakdown as to the numbers in the United States, but
5:45
also worldwide when it comes to abortion?
5:47
Yeah, when you mentioned that people in the church or they don't know, I think it's always
5:52
good to start off by saying, we've never done this and we meaning mankind.
5:58
Mankind has never dehumanized a segment of our population in 95% of the countries around
6:04
the world and funded it with most of the governments around the world.
6:09
So there's never been a holocaust or a genocide like this.
6:13
There are 2,500 abortions a day in the United States alone.
6:18
But the big number to remember is that there are 56 million abortions around the world
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every year, and that's the number where people are like, you have to be making that up and
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don't we wish we were, but we've never done that before.
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The world has crashed down on certain countries, certain cults where persecution has led to
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slaughter.
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And here, particularly in the United States, it is Abraham Lincoln's greatest fear that
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it's not an external threat to our democracy, but internally.
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And most countries, all but seven around the world, are participating in it and it's not
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because of the color of the baby's skin, it's not because of their religion, it's because
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of their size and their location.
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And so we've never done this on this scale.
7:11
Every holocaust, every genocide is an atrocity and it's not that my holocaust can beat up
7:16
your holocaust quite the opposite, it's that we've just never done this at the sheer level
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with these numbers in the history of the world.
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That's one thing when you have those 56, sorry, but that I just want to add those 56 million
7:30
abortions worldwide that Sean talked about that.
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That means that abortion causes more deaths than every other cause of death on the planet
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combined.
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Well, and that's the thing is, we always talk about in our modern context about this technology
7:43
advancement, right, and as technology advances, look how much greater things go.
7:47
But this is a destructive advancement that we see.
7:50
The reasons we're able to pull this off and kill 50 plus million people a year worldwide
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is because of the advent of a lot of these medical breakthroughs and technological breakthroughs.
7:58
But really all this coalesces in the reason why I wanted to have you guys on the podcast
8:01
today.
8:02
And that's because you released a new best-selling book called what to say when the complete new
8:05
guide to discussing abortion, how to change minds and convert hearts in a brave new world.
8:10
So guys, there are plenty of pro-life books out there, anti-abortion books, and I've read
8:13
a lot of them.
8:14
But this one reads like a how-to guide, which is not common for the genre, at least the
8:18
ones that I've seen.
8:19
And you do get decently granular on several of these arguments and we'll get more into
8:22
those here in just a second.
8:24
And the book has done well so far.
8:25
My understanding is that you're already on your second printing and you know, it's always
8:28
kind of hard to know how many to print and how many to do.
8:31
I know that Matt Walsh with the Daily Wire actually wrote the foreword and he breaks down
8:34
the pro-life argument in the most simple way possible.
8:37
He didn't come up with this.
8:38
Obviously he just, you know, it's a redounding thing for him to put out there, but it's that
8:41
abortion intentionally and directly destroys innocent human life and it is always wrong
8:46
to intentionally and directly destroy innocent human life.
8:49
It's period end of story right there.
8:51
But the reason why I like y'all's book so much is that you encourage people on the pro-life
8:55
side to go on offense, right?
8:58
To no longer sit back on our heels and just kind of take all this vitriol, but to actually
9:01
go on offense.
9:02
And you say that right from the beginning of the book, you provide a long list of questions
9:05
that help pro-lifers kind of reframe the conversation with someone when the topic of
9:10
abortion comes up and it really helps him go on offense.
9:13
But why do you think it's important to encourage pro-lifers to do that, to go on the offensive?
9:19
Because abortion has to be justified and life doesn't.
9:23
We like going to our kids' football games.
9:25
We like birthday cake.
9:28
We like, you know, dancing with our daughters before dinner and putting music on.
9:33
We like, like, you don't have to sit there and justify those kind of things.
9:37
And that's why that one of those, or that second chapter, that opening chapter is, you
9:42
know, go on offense.
9:43
But the book, I think that has surprised us to enter our, dig down deep in our inner
9:50
Donald Trump and brag on the book a bit.
9:52
It was surprising.
9:53
You know, we're coming up on our third printing of the book.
9:57
It premiered as a number one Amazon bestseller.
9:59
It was number two for all Christian books.
10:04
Number three was CS Lewis's mere Christianity, which if you haven't heard of that one, yeah.
10:10
Yeah.
10:11
Read that one before our book, by the way.
10:13
But on a secular standpoint, that surprised us.
10:16
We knew that this was needed.
10:17
There's a lot of dated material out there.
10:20
There's a lot of brave new world arguments.
10:22
There's bizarre arguments.
10:23
We don't have safe, legal, and rare.
10:25
We have shout your abortion and fantasize.
10:27
So Steve and I both knew going in.
10:29
We were hitting an audience for sure, but we were blown away by the secular success of
10:35
something like Amazon just exploded and having to go in.
10:39
I mean, we were in our second printing that the end of the release week.
10:45
You know, we didn't make it seven days before we had to order more books.
10:48
And so that was 20,000 more books.
10:50
So the success of the book is good considering the culture war going on, but it's because
10:56
of what you mentioned, that this is a different type of book.
10:59
And we tell you specifically what to say and what not to say.
11:03
And you know, people are like talking about going on offense.
11:07
No abortion supporter has ever been asked, what is an abortion?
11:12
You know, I mean, like we don't have to have all the answers.
11:15
We can ask questions.
11:17
And we've had these conversations with abortion supporters.
11:22
We've had it with Planned Parenthood managers.
11:23
These are proven arguments and they don't know this stuff and they really never thought
11:28
about it.
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Now let's get back into it.
13:45
And I would say for a lot of guys as well, you get into these conversations on the pro
13:49
life or pro abortion issue, a lot of people will just avoid it entirely because they haven't
13:54
had as much practice as you all where it's just old hat for the two you guys and the for
13:58
the people that work with your organization.
13:59
But one thing that I like to do on my show towards the end of interviews, I do a segment
14:03
called what would you say to someone that said and then I fill in the blank and that's
14:06
kind of my lightning round.
14:07
But in honor of you guys, in honor of the title of the book, we're going to adjust the title
14:12
of my segment here and called what to say when someone says, so we're actually going
14:17
to dig in to the arguments right now.
14:19
I don't know how you guys want to do it.
14:20
If you both want to refer to them, if you want to kind of ping pong back and forth and
14:23
do whatever.
14:24
But I really want to dig into the nitty gritty because most people know that they're pro
14:28
life, but then their entire pro life argumentation disappears when someone on the pro abortion
14:33
side asks them a question and they're like, oh, and they don't know what to do.
14:36
It's kind of like someone not sharing Jesus with someone because they don't know where
14:39
the how to explain dinosaurs or Jonah and the whale.
14:42
It's like, you know, we want to get passed on that.
14:43
So let's get practical.
14:45
Let's get granular.
14:46
So the first one is a message that you guys have to pro lifers, right?
14:49
So what, you know, what to say when someone says, we believe life begins a conception.
14:56
What would you tell them to say?
14:57
We often talk about that in terms of it's not a belief.
15:00
Belief sort of gets lumped into, you know, people believe a lot of things.
15:04
Some of them are reasonable.
15:05
Some of them are not, but empirical, scientifically proven fact is different from a belief.
15:11
It's a more sure form of knowledge.
15:13
And this is where we say we don't have in the pro life movement a problem with science.
15:17
We don't have a problem with facts.
15:19
We don't have a problem with truth.
15:20
All of those things are on our side.
15:22
We have a problem with confidence.
15:24
And so belief is sort of fairly or unfairly.
15:27
It becomes sort of a relative thing like you believe this.
15:29
I believe that we'll agree to disagree.
15:32
And there's just not room for that.
15:33
This is, this is a place where embryology 101 textbooks prove that life begins a conception.
15:39
Not a matter of belief or conjecture or anything like that.
15:42
We need to recognize that we are on solid ground and maintain our footing on that ground
15:49
and be willing to share that with clarity rather than with tepidity or, you know, reluctance.
15:57
If life doesn't start at conception, you don't need an abortion because there's no baby.
16:02
I mean, the baby conception is what puts abortion on the table.
16:07
The fact that someone was conceived is why we're even talking about abortion.
16:12
And so they're assuming life begins at conception by promoting abortion and we need to call
16:18
them out on it.
16:19
And so when we, we kind of like, you know, we believe that life begins at conception and
16:25
we don't, I don't believe that my Astros lost the World Series.
16:30
I know they lost the World Series and it breaks my heart and it makes me mad even though it
16:35
was a while back.
16:36
But we don't believe that life begins at conception.
16:39
We know that it does.
16:40
Well, Sean, I'm just going to just going to give you some breaking news here.
16:44
No one's disappointed that the Astros lost the World Series.
16:49
Everyone in America, including all the people down at Home Depot and Lowe's that, you know,
16:54
they've seen their sales of trash cans go down.
16:56
They are not disappointed at least bit, but we don't have to get into that right now.
17:00
We certainly don't need to get into college football because I know Wisconsin's not doing
17:03
so well and Texas A&M has that one good victory this year, but hey, we'll just keep moving
17:07
on here guys.
17:08
We don't have to get too far.
17:09
Hey, I'm just trying to throw, you know, throw some stuff up against the wall.
17:13
See if it sticks.
17:14
Don't worry about it.
17:15
Let's not get too offended.
17:16
But we're going to go ahead and move on.
17:17
That was kind of through the pro lifers because pro lifers like to say that now we're going
17:19
to get into some common arguments from pro abortion folks.
17:22
Okay.
17:23
So what to say when someone says my body, my choice?
17:27
Well, it's, it becomes one of these things that's something of a slogan and we see my
17:31
body, my choice really becomes sort of a veiled euphemism for saying men don't have
17:36
any right to talk about this issue because men, men's bodies are not the bodies that
17:40
are getting abortions.
17:42
And we've said, you know, this idea of like a woman's body, a woman's choice doesn't seem
17:46
to hold up when the men themselves are pro abortion.
17:50
You know, nobody said, well, it's a woman's body, a woman's choice to the Supreme Court,
17:53
the all male Supreme Court that legalized abortion in 1973.
17:57
No one is saying a woman's body, a woman's choice to the majority of abortion providers
18:02
who are men.
18:03
The majority of abortion facility owners who are men, nobody's saying it to the donors
18:08
who are funding Planned Parenthood to Warren Buffett and all these folks who are putting
18:12
the money there.
18:13
And so I think that's an important thing to mention, but it's also important for us to
18:16
discuss that my body, my choice applies perhaps to the woman's body, but we're talking about
18:21
two different bodies here.
18:22
It is again, a scientifically and empirically proven fact that the unborn child's body is
18:27
a distinct body from the mothers, different DNA, its own beating heart, as we've seen
18:33
with some of the laws, particularly and most notably in Texas of late, you know, everything
18:38
is different.
18:39
Distinct and unique organism exists there.
18:41
And so my body, my choice is a bit of a smokescreen.
18:44
It's not honest.
18:45
It's not intellectually consistent by any means.
18:47
And when we can expose that, you know, that objection sort of falls away pretty quickly.
18:52
And it's important Steve had on something really great there, particularly for this audience.
18:57
We men were supposed to just bow our head and shame and never talk about abortion again
19:02
because we can't have one, which is very offensive to the transgendered people, by the
19:07
way.
19:08
You can always point that out.
19:09
But the fact that we're men, I guess men still exist.
19:11
We can't have abortions.
19:12
My body, my choice.
19:14
That's all BS and men need to call people out that, as Steve said, this, we didn't vote
19:20
on this.
19:21
Women didn't vote on this.
19:22
All male Supreme Court gave us abortion.
19:24
Most abortion facilities in America are owned by men.
19:27
Most abortion doctors are men.
19:29
Nobody profits more financially from abortion than a man.
19:34
And nobody benefits more than a bad man, a promiscuous man who is often we know from
19:40
experience, nowhere to be found, the day of the abortion, the men don't lie on that table
19:45
and have an abortion.
19:46
The women do, and men are nowhere to be found, which is why often women feel the only option
19:53
is to have an abortion.
19:55
The women don't win.
19:56
They don't come out to the parking lot and have this great relief and celebrate reproductive
20:01
rights.
20:02
That's a little garbage.
20:04
The men, bad men benefit from abortion, nothing says, it's a man's world in the worst way
20:11
than a plain parent at abortion facility with an open sign on it.
20:14
And so we need to own that and really and sort of curse our own men haven't been shoved
20:20
to the sidelines.
20:21
We've sprinted there and built condos and said, hey, you do, you know, whatever you do, all
20:26
support it.
20:27
It's your choice.
20:28
It's your body.
20:29
So that's the first way to just get rid of my body.
20:31
My choice is Steve pointed out.
20:34
The other thing is to kind of back up and just think about that phrase like, is it true?
20:42
I got to wear a seat belt and I live in Texas, the greatest state, the freest state in the
20:48
world.
20:49
We can't really do whatever we want with our bodies all the time.
20:54
We can't go streaking.
20:56
We can't get drunk in public and walk around.
21:00
I can't go up to the Dallas Cowboy facility and just start working out and they tell me
21:04
to leave.
21:05
And I'm like, my body, my choice, you know, I'm taking care of myself.
21:09
It doesn't apply to anything.
21:10
It's a made up phrase.
21:12
It's the most common phrase.
21:14
We hit it hard in the book, but it's a great confidence builder because it's the same as,
21:20
you know, don't have a uterus, you know, no uterus, no opinion.
21:25
All that garbage, they're just, it's really a softball for us in a dialogue.
21:32
That's why in the book, we push so hard that we have got to be respectful.
21:36
We have got to be loving because the power of our arguments is overwhelming.
21:42
And I would say a little silly, you know, where we don't like, we just can't do whatever
21:48
we want with our bodies.
21:49
You're just trashing the Astros.
21:51
Remember all the steroid scandals?
21:53
I mean, why can't Mark McGuire take steroids and we all see five home runs a game?
21:57
What's wrong with that?
21:58
My body, my choice.
21:59
So we don't apply it.
22:01
I'm a St. Louis Cardinals fan.
22:03
How dare you bring up a horrible, uh, no, no, I'm not offended because I can't stand
22:07
that man.
22:08
Mark McGuire.
22:09
I'm just, I wasn't planning to get that angry this morning because I tried to pretend like
22:12
he was like, Cardinals, no, it wasn't awesome.
22:15
All right.
22:16
It was all a lie, but we're going to get back to the subject for today.
22:18
But one thing about the, my body, my choice thing as well and the, Hey, no uterus, no opinion
22:21
is you, okay, then explain to me why an overwhelming majority in a lot of cases of pro life people
22:27
are actually women.
22:28
Like, why are there so many women pro life cause if that was part of it?
22:31
But one thing that I loved in the book that you did on the, my body, my choice side is
22:34
you made, you made it explicitly clear that the abortion doesn't happen to the woman.
22:39
It happens inside the woman.
22:40
Her body is the setting for the abortion.
22:43
The abortion doesn't happen to her that her brain is not the one that is, you know, sucked
22:47
out into a trash can.
22:49
Her heart is not the one that stopped her, appendages are not ripped out and like the
22:52
only lifeless body at the end of an abortion is her or is the baby that's inside of her,
22:57
not her.
22:58
And so I think that's important for people to look at when they're like, my body, my
23:01
choice, you know, this baby is an extension of my body.
23:03
If I shove my finger up your nose, I'm not an extension of your body.
23:06
I'm just inside your body at that exact moment.
23:09
That doesn't mean you get to kill me.
23:10
And the other thing that I feel like, so my body, my choice, no uterus, no opinion.
23:13
That's really popular, but then people like to go for broke, right?
23:16
They like to go for the jugular, no pun intended, but it's what to say when someone says, what
23:21
about rape and incest?
23:23
Yeah.
23:24
This is, this is the question and whether it's your crazy uncle at Thanksgiving who appears
23:29
in the book many times or the politicians.
23:33
If you're a male and have the benefit of also accepting that reality and identifying as
23:38
a male, you will be given the 14 year old girl who is raped and she doesn't have access
23:45
to healthcare and shame on you.
23:48
And that's where we're just supposed to shrink up.
23:51
And the first point is that rape consists of less than 1% of all abortions and we should
23:58
never say that because it's insensitive.
24:00
It doesn't matter if it's all the abortions, it doesn't matter if it's one abortion.
24:04
The second point to make is that a crime was committed.
24:09
The rapist should go to prison and no one, you know, many times men feel like they're
24:15
on the side of the rapist and they're not.
24:18
And often abortion advocates, they just forget about the rapist in conversation.
24:21
You'll see.
24:22
But so then we need to say, well, the rapist should go to prison and tag that.
24:29
The other thing, and I'll let Steve chime in on this, is that we have personal experience
24:34
with women who have had abortion, of women who have been raped and women who have had
24:39
an abortion, women who have been raped and have chosen life and it's night and day because
24:43
it's a myth to think that a surgery can take away a crime or a tragedy.
24:49
Surgeries aren't designed to do that.
24:51
They don't remove a horrific experience that someone goes through.
24:57
And what happens is the abortion, if you have the abortion after the rape, it will remind
25:01
the woman, the anniversary of the abortion will remind her of the rape and the anniversary
25:07
of the rape will remind her of the abortion.
25:10
And it is an endless cycle.
25:12
And yet the women who choose life or give it up for adoption had a good buddy.
25:16
His mom was raped at 14.
25:17
She gave him up for adoption and he spoke in front of a claim parent at one time and said,
25:21
today as like a 20 year old dude, I'm a product of rape.
25:26
Like I can't remove that.
25:28
I'm a product of rape.
25:30
And we don't, we like the underdogs in America.
25:34
We never punish a child because their dad's a criminal.
25:37
We never punish a child because their dad can't hold a job or is a drunk or whatever he is.
25:43
And the only time we do it and everybody's supposed to go along with it and we're not
25:48
thinking about the woman at all, we somehow just think it's appropriate that anybody raped
25:56
have an abortion and we just totally disregard the child and write them off and judge them
26:03
because of the circumstances of their conception.
26:06
What about you, Steve?
26:07
Yeah, it's very true.
26:08
People need to ask the actual women who have suffered that horrific crime of sexual assault.
26:13
This is inexcusable.
26:15
No pro-life or should ever feel as though they're taking the side of a rapist.
26:18
It's just not true.
26:19
It's a standard political talking point, but it doesn't have any basis in reality or in
26:23
the experience of the women who have had abortions or suffered the trauma of a sexual assault.
26:27
I met a woman out in front of an abortion facility and she said that it's a high school.
26:32
It's sort of the exact case scenario that Shawn is referencing.
26:34
As a high school student, she was the victim of a sexual assault.
26:38
She became pregnant through that assault.
26:40
She had an abortion and through her tears, she explained to me how it took her a lot longer
26:45
to find healing and recovery after the abortion than it even did from the assault.
26:50
This led her into the wilderness.
26:52
She had two more abortions.
26:54
She became addicted to hard drugs.
26:55
She became a prostitute.
26:57
Thanks be to God.
26:58
Our Lord is a great pursuer and he brought her back and she's now an evangelical pro-life
27:02
Christian.
27:03
Thanks be to God, wonderful things.
27:06
She shouldn't be used as a prop or as a tool or as a mascot for the abortion industry.
27:11
We've got another woman who's been a great 40 days for life leader, has saved tons of
27:15
babies and she was a victim of a sexual assault, became pregnant.
27:19
She was run out of her ostensibly Christian church for not having an abortion because
27:24
obviously if you, the victim of a rape, you have to have an abortion.
27:28
It wasn't, apparently it wasn't her body, her choice at that point.
27:30
She was run literally run out of her church for choosing life for her child.
27:35
This is a case where it's foolish, whether it's rape or any other scenario, we don't
27:40
need to pit moms against their babies.
27:43
Life is good for them both and abortion is harmful to them both.
27:47
When we stand on that simple truth, we can make sure that the world sees our compassion
27:52
and our love for these women and not that we're looking to stand in the way of their
27:56
rights or their healing.
27:58
It's so degrading for us, none too.
28:01
I mean, let's think about that.
28:03
The woman that she's raped and then she goes and she has an abortion and we all say abortion
28:12
is bad for women.
28:13
Abortion is bad.
28:14
Well, unless, I mean, look what happened to you.
28:18
I mean, you obviously need one.
28:19
So we just cave on it, I mean, she had shameful church, but we just cave on it, not thinking
28:26
about the woman, but what happens when she goes through the abortion and then now what
28:30
moment hits because it doesn't solve her problems.
28:34
She's now a victim of rape and she's post aborted and somehow we think she's responsible
28:39
and courageous.
28:40
I mean, we just dumped on somebody who is a wounded victim with this notion that this
28:47
surgery is going to fix it and I think it's so degrading the women.
28:53
We need to flip it around.
28:54
We need to share these points.
28:56
We need to be very sensitive often if you have a woman who brings this up and she's
29:01
very passionate.
29:02
She's either a rape victim herself or a close relative and I've had that happen to me many
29:06
times.
29:07
So, but this notion that we men or we society are doing them a favor is is total misguided
29:16
mercy.
29:17
When I think at the same time, that's why I brought up that a lot of people even inside
29:20
the church, their arguments fall apart.
29:22
This is the one where it happens, like people that are in my Sunday school, you know, that
29:26
they'll even say, yeah, I'm I'm 100% pro life, but man, I just don't know if I could tell
29:31
a woman that was raped by her uncle that she shouldn't get an abortion.
29:34
It's like, well, do you know what 100% means?
29:37
You know what pro life means?
29:38
Because it sounds like your your pro life when it's a convenient argument, right?
29:42
Or whenever you're arguing against convenience.
29:43
And the other thing that I've done, the tact I've said, whenever people bring up rape or
29:46
incest, and I go a little bit more extreme than you guys, I don't think that the rapist
29:50
should be in prison.
29:51
I think they should be castrated and killed.
29:53
Like I'm sorry.
29:54
You're destroying the amago day by stealing something from somebody.
29:58
And I'm so sorry that, you know, we don't we don't execute people for rape in the United
30:03
States.
30:04
I don't think that that's a good thing.
30:05
You want to try to stop rapists, if they think if I go through with this, I might get the
30:08
electric chair or bring back the firing squad or something like that.
30:12
That's kind of where I stand on the issue.
30:13
But it's it's all about bringing people back to the fact that the rapist loves abortion.
30:18
That's like what you were talking about earlier.
30:20
It's like they absolutely love a bad guy loves abortion because it gets rid of their crime.
30:24
It gets rid of all the evidence.
30:25
If you can murder people and just snap your finger or pay five or 600 bucks and every
30:30
all the evidence of your crime goes away from the most part, every criminal on the planet
30:34
would take that deal.
30:36
But a lot of pro abortion folks as well are go ahead, see just rapists, incest, human trafficking,
30:43
all these folks, it's their greatest tool.
30:45
It's used over and over again.
30:47
And so oftentimes, you know, incest isn't even, you know, it stuns people and I think it shocks
30:52
people even more than rape does.
30:53
And that's a scenario where it's a simple DNA test.
30:56
You don't need a witness.
30:58
You don't need a he said she said it's not his word versus her word.
31:01
The DNA proves if there's a 14 year old girl and her dad is the father of her child that
31:05
that proves that there's a crime and there's only one way that that can be covered up.
31:09
Absolutely.
31:10
And I think that that's a thing that people give short shrift to or they don't really
31:13
consider that, especially when they're about to enter into a conversation about this topic.
31:17
But another thing that pro abortion folks bring up that they absolutely love to bring up.
31:20
And so I want to know what to say.
31:22
What to say when someone says the fetus might be a human being, but it's not a person.
31:27
And so you'll get people to where it's like, okay, I agree with 95% of biologists on the
31:32
planet and every geneticists and every person that knows anything about, you know, biological
31:36
textbook that yes, it's a, it's a human being.
31:39
Yes, it's human living tissue.
31:41
Great.
31:42
You've wore me down, but it's just not a person.
31:45
What is, what do you say when that happens?
31:47
I think it's a great opportunity, as Sean mentioned before, to ask people questions.
31:51
Nobody wants to listen to them to someone else talk.
31:54
We want to exert our own opinion and so that's why asking questions can be so effective.
31:59
Okay, well, then what is a person?
32:01
When does personhood begin?
32:03
How does it begin?
32:04
What is so magical about the birth canal that on one side of it, you're not a person
32:07
on the other side, you are.
32:10
And sometimes, sometimes you ask these questions and you don't even need to make the case as
32:15
the people try to answer and they hear out loud the insane point of view that they are
32:21
putting into words, sometimes they convert themselves in the process.
32:25
And we don't believe that and neither does the guy or girl who brings that up.
32:31
It's not a person.
32:32
Okay.
32:33
Then we need to apologize to Scott Peterson because he's serving time for second degree
32:38
murder for killing his pregnant wife.
32:41
We also need to apologize to all the women at Six Flags who are pregnant and we wouldn't
32:45
let them on a roller coaster or the women we prosecute because they have ten whiskeys
32:50
and they're pregnant.
32:52
You know, we legally protect the unborn.
32:56
We do surgeries on unborn children.
32:59
It's amazing what we can do.
33:02
When somebody says, okay, it's a human being but not a person, you can just say, neither
33:08
of you, because we're biological human beings here.
33:12
Well, who decides if they're a person?
33:15
I do.
33:16
So it's just kind of like it's part of the dehumanization, Nazi Germany, Nazi law did
33:24
it to the Jews, they're not people.
33:28
You know, all of these things, any we did it to blacks in our country, all of the dehumanization
33:34
you see around the world takes away personhood, which is just kind of made up.
33:41
You're conceived and you're a human being, you're a fetal human, you're a human fetus,
33:46
whatever it is, you're human and you exist and you're a person.
33:51
And so, you know, when it's hard to kill a person.
33:57
But if you're just killing something, you know, it's a lot easier.
34:03
One the same thing goes with people, you don't get announcements in the mail for random clumps
34:08
of cells parties, you don't go to a random clump of cells party to celebrate that.
34:13
You don't ask someone, how is that random clump of cells doing right now?
34:16
My wife is pregnant right now.
34:17
I've never thought to ask her that.
34:19
Maybe it's because we innately know what's growing inside of her is not going to end
34:22
up being, it's not a question mark as to what's coming out.
34:25
Is it going to be a ficus?
34:26
Is it going to be a Volkswagen?
34:27
Is it going to be a water bottle?
34:28
We know that it's a human baby in there, but again, the location is what gets people
34:32
all out of whack whenever they go into these arguments.
34:35
But another thing that people talk about and you kind of alluded to it a little bit there,
34:38
Sean, is what to say when someone says, what about when the abortion is necessary to save
34:45
the life of the mother?
34:46
I mean, that question in and of itself is a little bit ignorant as to kind of where we've
34:50
come to in our modern context when it comes to medicine and what we're able to do.
34:54
We can even take a womb out of the woman's body, do surgery on the woman and put the womb
34:58
back and stitch her back up and the baby can keep developing.
35:01
But what do you say to people when they bring that up?
35:04
This is such an important one because as controversial as you mentioned, the rape issue being where
35:09
there's good pro-life Christian people are like, "Okay, but I couldn't tell a woman who's
35:12
been raped."
35:13
This takes that and puts it on steroids.
35:15
The steroids that Sean was talking about in baseball before, this puts it on steroids
35:19
because it's like, "Well, isn't it pro-life to allow a woman who's going to die from her
35:23
pregnancy to have an abortion?
35:25
Wouldn't that be the pro-life thing to do?
35:27
You know, save the life that's already here."
35:29
Well, okay, both lives are here.
35:30
But let's get beyond that and let's talk about the fact that as far back as 1967, Alan
35:37
Guetmacher, the godfather of Planned Parenthood, said that there's no case where abortion is
35:42
ever needed to save the life of a mother, it just doesn't exist.
35:45
Unless I'm dramatically mistaken, our medical technology has only gotten more and more advanced
35:51
in the last 50-plus years.
35:53
If it wasn't necessary in 1967 to use abortion to save a mother's life, it certainly isn't
35:59
necessary now.
36:00
We've got the former surgeon General C. Everett Coop said in his entire career practicing
36:04
medicine, never encountered a woman who needed an abortion to save her life.
36:09
We've got Dr. Tony Levatino, who did thousands upon thousands upon thousands of abortions,
36:14
said that many of them he justified by saying it was necessary to save the life of the mother.
36:19
How many abortions of those abortions did he actually need to do to save the mother's
36:24
life?
36:25
Big old zero, he said, not a single one.
36:27
He said, not only does abortion not save the life of a mother, but if there is a truly
36:32
life-threatening health condition, the abortion is going to be the time it takes to perform
36:37
that abortion and the efforts and the trauma upon the woman's body is going to be creating
36:42
an unnecessary delay in providing the actual life-saving medical treatment that that mom
36:47
needs to pull through.
36:49
There's even, you know, we can argue this stuff often better than the person who supports abortion
36:57
and so they don't bring this up a lot, but I would if I were for abortion and that is
37:01
ovarian cancer.
37:04
The woman has ovarian cancer, she's pregnant, you got to go in and do radiation, which is
37:09
totally within her right and the baby could die, is going to die, blah, blah, blah.
37:16
And number one, it's amazing what we can do with cancer.
37:22
I live in Houston where MD Anderson's here and you know, like you said, they can move
37:27
the baby, they can target the radiation, they can target the cancer, they can do all of
37:32
that.
37:33
But let's say they do that and as a result, it doesn't go well and the baby dies.
37:39
It's not an abortion.
37:40
It's not an abortion.
37:41
It didn't go well, but an abortion is the direct intent surgical killing of a human being.
37:51
Their crime is that they exist, they're conceived and they're getting bigger and they need to
37:56
go away.
37:57
So it's the direct killing, you're not supposed to survive an abortion.
38:01
An abortion is unsuccessful if the baby lives, only surgery you're not supposed to survive.
38:07
So you know, even these scenarios, which many times they wouldn't think of, sometimes somebody
38:12
will bring up the ovarian cancer.
38:14
You just get so far off in the left field and you're like, what, you know, and it doesn't
38:21
happen in the book.
38:22
We give all these examples at Steve reference where it's medically necessary to say, abortion
38:27
is not designed to save a lot.
38:28
It's designed to take it and if you have a life threatening thing, OBGYNs are going to
38:34
tell you, having an abortion is going to be a waste of time and it's not going to heal
38:38
you.
38:39
It's not going to do anything for you.
38:40
That's why they've expanded to sometimes to say, well, maybe not the life of the mother,
38:43
but the health of the mother.
38:44
Yeah.
38:45
If we break that down to the health of the mother, you know, mothers are their health
38:48
is not improved by abortion.
38:50
And in fact, these health conditions that are used to justify abortions.
38:54
The number one among them, first of all, we're talking about a small, small minority, but
38:58
those who cite the health of the mother is their reason for getting an abortion.
39:02
The number one health condition is listed as fatigue.
39:05
Now Sean and I both have a lot of kids.
39:08
We recognize how fatigue, how much fatigue parenting causes, but this is not the reason
39:12
to take the life of an innocent child.
39:14
Hey, I'm fatigued.
39:15
Yeah.
39:16
I can't get rid of my one and a half year old because I'm tired, you know, that's not
39:21
something anybody would do.
39:22
Yeah.
39:23
Otherwise, no one would have kids in their family anymore after a week long vacation.
39:28
Yeah.
39:29
Absolutely.
39:30
Um, and guys, this is probably a good time for me to mention that you've got to go pick
39:33
up this book.
39:34
It's going to be there in the show notes for you to get for yourself because we are literally
39:37
barely scratching the surface on a lot of these things.
39:39
Even some of these topics that we're talking about, y'all going to much, much more detail
39:42
in the book.
39:43
So you have to get it for yourself and read it for yourself, but there, I want to turn
39:45
to a part of the book that kind of caught me a little bit off guard and maybe it's going
39:49
to be a point of disagreement for the three of us, but it's from the chapter called when
39:52
it turns political.
39:53
So I'm going to read this quote to you though, the abortion industry mongers fear of post
39:57
abortive women being dragged off to prison, the pro life movement has long recognized
40:02
women as victims of abortion and sought to punish doctors who perform abortions, not
40:06
the women who procure them.
40:08
So that's a quote from the chapter.
40:09
Now for me personally, I think that women should be held legally liable for paying an
40:15
assassin to kill their child because the same rules would apply in any other scenario.
40:20
If I decide one day, I hate my sister and I need my sister to go, but I don't want my
40:23
sister's blood on my hands.
40:24
I pay an assassin.
40:26
He kills my sister.
40:27
The assassin gets caught, he, you know, points at me and says, Hey, he's the one that paid
40:30
me to do it.
40:31
We both go down for murder in the United States.
40:33
There's plenty of examples of people being in a car, not even involved in a murder, but
40:37
they drove someone away from a murder scene and the driver got the same exact charges as
40:42
the other people in the car, the ones that actually did the murder.
40:45
So I guess I don't want to assume what y'all's position is on this particular issue, but that's
40:50
always bothered me that the further I got into the pro life issue is why would we consider
40:54
these women victims because then we're just assuming that these women are being dragged
40:59
to the abortion mill to get done to them, what is being done to inside of them.
41:04
So should they not be held legally responsible for that?
41:07
There's a lot there.
41:08
It's a good point.
41:09
The, the victims is, is of an industry and a culture, not that they themselves are not
41:15
personally responsible or culpable for the death of their child.
41:18
They are and they will, they will tell you that when they speak.
41:22
The biggest difference in that and what you say and why I don't agree with it is because
41:27
killing your sister is illegal right now in the United States of America and traditionally
41:33
around the world when there's an atrocity going on and for us it would be abortion and
41:38
it's going on legally, it's promoted, it's paid for by the government for, for abortion
41:45
to be illegal today, if we just banned all abortion, it was illegal today.
41:52
We didn't do this in Nazi Germany.
41:53
We haven't done it for war crimes.
41:55
You don't go back and, and prosecute the underlings, the people at the lowest level, which here
42:00
would just be the women that, that fell for it.
42:03
You would prosecute doctors that continue to do abortions.
42:06
You maybe go back and prosecute doctors.
42:08
You knew that illegal abortions, but the legality of it is, is why obviously you couldn't go
42:14
on prosecute a woman who had an abortion today because it's, it's legal and let me help in
42:19
their shot.
42:20
Yeah.
42:21
So I'm, I'm with you on the legality part of it because again, technically you can't call
42:23
in, this is legal, like legalese technicality.
42:26
You can't call something murder that is not murder by law.
42:29
Murder is, is a, is a legal term and that's how we use it here in the United States, but
42:34
let's say this, this was illegal to do.
42:37
Would you agree at that point that a woman should be held liable?
42:40
I think that's the ultimate question, not, you know, in modern jurisprudence is at the
42:44
acceptable thing.
42:45
I mean, should these women be held criminally liable if it was decided upon as a country
42:50
that that yes is indeed a crime?
42:52
Well, the Texas law now sort of skips over them and says that we can prosecute the doctor,
42:58
which has annihilated abortions here.
43:01
Yeah.
43:02
And my guess is that when Roe v. Wade is overturned, the same would be fit.
43:09
This applies to a lot of things, unlike a lot of the pro-abortion arguments, there's
43:14
a lot of people that use drugs that never get prosecuted because the dealer gets prosecuted.
43:20
So on that one, I will say I don't know because I'd have to look at criminal precedent for
43:27
for other things, whether she should be held, I mean, it's going to be a, it's going to
43:31
be a case, is it her 10th abortion, is there a 10th illegal abortion, is it her first?
43:37
I think circumstances do come into that of whether you prosecute her much like we do for
43:43
many other crimes.
43:46
And that's the point, is that once abortion is made illegal, there will be precedent.
43:52
And we will have those comparisons.
43:54
And I do trust our justice system to figure that out.
43:57
And sometimes you get a drug dealer that gets, you know, six months community service,
44:01
and sometimes they go to the penitentiary for 20 years for a lesser crime.
44:04
But at least there's precedent, and we have no precedent with abortion.
44:08
The doctors, no doubt, they would be practicing medicine illegally, and they should be prosecuted
44:15
and sent to prison for sure.
44:16
I think to commit a crime, you have to know that you're doing something wrong.
44:19
And we've got five decades now of women being sort of brainwashed, and our society being
44:24
brainwashed with this idea that it's not a baby, it's a clump of cells, a product of
44:28
conception, any of those terms that you've used before.
44:30
And so there's got to be knowledge.
44:32
And some of this gets back to what we talked about before, which is that men, selfish men,
44:37
bad men, are the biggest winners of abortion.
44:40
This isn't coming from a pro-life or a Christian news source.
44:44
There's peer-reviewed medical research that shows that about two-thirds of women who have
44:48
abortions are significantly pressured, even coerced into having those abortions.
44:53
And I think that's a mitigating factor that needs to be taken into consideration.
44:57
Hey, and to dig down on your point, under your scenario, and I could see this, so maybe
45:04
this will play out.
45:05
But under your scenario, okay, you'd prosecute the woman, but it wouldn't stop there.
45:13
Did the aunt know?
45:14
Who drove her?
45:16
Who paid for it?
45:17
Did the cousin know?
45:19
It's just like a guy who's molesting children and the wife knows, but she doesn't say anything.
45:28
A lot of prosecutors will prosecute the wife or prosecute the aunt and uncle who knew.
45:32
They'll give them six months.
45:34
So that's why I say that's a hard answer because we don't have any precedent.
45:41
And I don't know how that would play out and how Roe v. Wade is overturned and how the
45:45
state's then enforced it would determine that.
45:49
And I think like a lot of crimes, it would be different state to state and jurisdiction
45:54
to jurisdiction.
45:55
Yeah, I think it's an important thing to think through because let's say I knew somebody
45:59
wanted to murder somebody just because I knew that they wanted to do something doesn't make
46:03
me liable for the fact that they went and did it.
46:05
The same thing is true that I would say even to your point, Steve, is that ignorance of
46:08
something.
46:09
So you've heard about this, you know, oh, I didn't know this was a crime in your city.
46:13
The police officer is going to say, I'm sorry, ignorance is not an excuse here.
46:16
So when you say I didn't know I was doing that, I didn't know that this was killing somebody
46:19
is not a compelling excuse in most in most places that you would kind of come to.
46:24
And so again, it's not an easy, it's not an easy, cut and dry thing.
46:28
But at the same time to pretend like these women are just completely ignorant to what's
46:32
happening during that process.
46:34
It goes back to everything that y'all been saying.
46:36
She doesn't go out into the parking lot and then just go get McDonald's as if it's just
46:38
she got a mole removed.
46:40
There's something different that happens, so this assumption that she doesn't know what
46:43
she's done is, is overly wrong is, is a big deal.
46:46
And I know we can't, we should probably spend a whole lot more time talking about that.
46:49
But guys, we only have a short amount of time and I want to get to this next question specifically.
46:52
I will say real quick, I'll say for guys like right now, listening to this, never say
46:57
that.
46:58
Never say it in dialogue because there's nothing the pro-abortion people want more than they
47:02
hear men saying prosecute the women, lock them up.
47:06
And so it's at our disadvantage, I think, to say that before it's made illegal and then
47:12
people will debate it like all other crimes.
47:15
But I think it hurts us big time if you go out and say, I think the woman should be prosecuted.
47:20
I think the boyfriend should be prosecuted.
47:22
So I think the point there is obviously it may be true, but it may not be helpful to the
47:25
conversation because there's a lot of things in your book that I'm like, oh, I would totally
47:28
say that, but it's like it may not help the conversation overall.
47:31
And the ultimate goal is to change someone's mind, to change their hearts that's in the
47:34
title of the book.
47:35
But one thing that you both talk about in your book quite a bit, you go through the
47:40
scientific and philosophical arguments against abortion.
47:44
But you spend almost no time on the biblical or theological reasons to be against abortion.
47:50
And I don't think that was an accident or an oversight by any stretch of the imagination
47:53
because both of you are professing Christians.
47:56
But there are some organizations in this space that you know, by name, that they will not
48:01
argue the scientific points at all, they will only argue the biblical points.
48:06
Now for me specifically, if someone believes that the Bible is just a conglomeration of
48:10
fables from thousands of years ago, and that's your basis for an argument, you're going
48:14
to lose them from the very, very beginning.
48:16
But for you guys, why did you decide to go more the scientific philosophical route as
48:21
opposed to leaning on biblical or theological truths?
48:24
God's law is written on our hearts, I think, and there's, there's this natural law.
48:28
And in our hearts, we all know abortion is wrong, right?
48:31
You never take the life of an innocent child.
48:33
And that's why we have to go on offense chapter.
48:35
That's why we have this notion that we don't have a problem with the facts.
48:38
We have a problem with confidence and we want folks to be confident meeting abortion supporters
48:43
where they're at, whether they're Christian, atheist, something in between, something else
48:48
entirely different.
48:49
We think that God's law is universally written on the human hearts and that you don't necessarily,
48:55
we make no bones about it.
48:56
We're motivated by our love for God and our belief in Jesus Christ to go out and make
49:00
these points and to stand in front of abortion facilities.
49:03
That's our motivation.
49:04
But you don't necessarily even need to be a professing Christian to recognize a slaughtering
49:08
and innocent child is not the right thing to do.
49:11
Also, the book is designed to go based on what we know and not what people make up on
49:18
a whim when they read scripture.
49:20
And there's a lot of bad religion out there.
49:22
And there's a lot of just Christian sects that read a scripture and say, "This is what
49:27
it says to me and it can be that the sky is green."
49:31
And so we can't get into that.
49:33
I can't prevent somebody from just making something up in their head and believing it
49:36
to be true.
49:38
But I can point to science and I can point to reason and I can point to law and both
49:43
eternal law and natural law.
49:46
And I think that's assumed in the book and we hit it hard in the closing chapters as
49:50
you know.
49:51
You can't give it away, but the eternal consequences and the goodness that we can do by striving
49:57
for sanctity and growing closer to Jesus Christ.
50:01
But for the people that are out in the woods or in some ivory tower and they're like, "I
50:06
believe it's God's will to have an abortion," there's very little we can do to prevent them
50:12
from just making crap up out of thin air and believing it to be true.
50:17
But I can tell them that they are supporting murder and if that's their religious belief,
50:21
I'll skip their Sunday donuts.
50:23
Well, and at the same time for me here in a few weeks, I'm going to be teaching my Sunday
50:28
school class, an adult Sunday school class about the subject of abortion.
50:32
And there are people that are concerned about topical discussions during Sunday school because
50:37
it gets away from scripture, what they say.
50:40
But whenever I have this conversation with people, I root it in scripture.
50:43
I root it in the Amago day, I root it in the image of God being written on all of us and
50:47
being written on us from the moment we're a one-celled zygote, right?
50:50
When all of the stuff that makes us who we are eventually is right there at that moment
50:55
as that one-celled zygote.
50:57
However, I have to give people practical ways to push back darkness in the world because
51:01
that's why I'm down to life is here is to equipment to push back darkness.
51:04
And if you were ill-equipped to go into a conversation because you have the wrong ammunition
51:09
for the battle, that's an issue.
51:11
And so that's what I'm trying to give to these people as we kind of move forward.
51:15
And the Bible speaks one word essentially, one name, and that's Jesus Christ.
51:21
And so not one word of it supports abortion because he didn't pop out of an acorn to save
51:26
us from our sins.
51:28
He showed the greatest event in history is the Annunciation.
51:31
It's the most painted event in history.
51:33
It's not the crucifixion.
51:35
It's the Annunciation, the angel Gabriel declaring that God will come among us.
51:40
And she says, "Be it done to me according to thy word."
51:43
He went into the womb.
51:46
Abortion is the perfect piece of art for the devil because that which Christ came into
51:52
the world to heal and save us from our sins is now statistically the most dangerous place
51:57
in the world.
51:58
And so the idea that abortion is not in the Bible is complete garbage.
52:02
Well, yeah.
52:03
I mean, hey, you can say the abortion is not in the Bible, then I would ask you, can you
52:06
find it in the Constitution for me?
52:08
Because I don't think it's in there either.
52:09
So guys, another thing that I got to in your book, because a lot of the stuff that I read
52:12
in your book, it was incredibly important, but it wasn't like earth shattering for me
52:16
because it's stuff that I heard before, but I didn't hear it all in one place, right?
52:19
So it was great to see all that information in one place where you could easily reference
52:23
it.
52:24
You could just thumb through it or control F and find something.
52:26
But y'all's section that you included on a vitro fertilization absolutely blew my mind.
52:32
And it blew my mind because I love finding segments of the world or of subject matters
52:37
that I don't know anything about, right?
52:40
I didn't even know how to spell in vitro fertilization out, right?
52:43
I thought I had it all different in my head, but this is this hits close to home for me
52:47
because I have very close family members that have used in vitro fertilization to become
52:51
pregnant.
52:52
Other very, very good friends that have used it to try and get pregnant unsuccessfully.
52:56
But there was so much information about IVF that I didn't know anything about.
53:00
And I can just assure you, no one in churches know anything about that as well.
53:03
And I know we can't do a deep dive into all the scientific underlings and, you know, tendrils
53:07
that come out from IVF.
53:08
But can you give our listeners an idea of what you covered in that section of the book?
53:13
I think there's two main levels to the case that we make against IVF.
53:16
The first is on a practical level.
53:17
It is exceptionally deadly.
53:19
In order to get one or sometimes two live births, they're producing numerous, you know,
53:25
a dozen or more embryos.
53:28
And okay, so some of them don't make it in the lab.
53:30
Some of them are filtered out, you know, some of them are implanted.
53:33
Of those that are implanted, oh boy, we got five or six or seven babies here in the womb,
53:37
we're going to need to what they call selectively reduce them down to one or two.
53:41
That means aborting, you know, the ones who remain.
53:44
There's a any given cycle of IVF treatment, you don't get a single live birth.
53:51
All of the children that are created in that lab die.
53:54
So that's not pro-life.
53:55
That's on a very practical level.
53:56
But then there's also sort of the greater philosophical level here where it begins to
54:01
treat children as commodities to be bought and sold.
54:04
They become products.
54:05
That's an inherently dehumanizing process.
54:09
You see women who are being selected based on their ACT score or their SAT score or their
54:14
height or their attractiveness and being the ones who are recruited to donate their eggs.
54:19
They're not donating them.
54:20
They're selling them.
54:21
You've got women overseas in India who are being exploited for their eggs.
54:25
You've got surrogate mothers who are being exploited.
54:27
So the moms are dehumanized.
54:28
The babies are dehumanized, that most fundamental of all human relationships, a mother and a
54:32
child, that is being outsourced and turned into a technological process.
54:37
We could do a whole episode on this.
54:39
But at the basic level, those are the concerns that it turns the life of a child into something
54:45
that can be bought and sold and transacted.
54:49
And that your response to that chapter is appropriate because it's the one chapter in
54:54
there that we don't all agree on.
54:56
People don't have to agree on it.
54:57
We thought it was important to go in there because of the future of abortion and the
55:00
future of human rights and what it means to be a human being.
55:03
I will say, unlike other chapters and abortion arguments, the reason it's in there is because
55:09
the pro-abortion people will bring up in vitro.
55:12
And a lot of people are like, "Oh yeah, I have no problem with that."
55:14
And so we break it down, but you're right.
55:18
Most I have family members.
55:20
I have friends that used in vitro.
55:23
And it's kind of like the first time anybody says, "Carbs aren't really that good for you."
55:28
And like 20 years ago, you're like, "What are you talking about?
55:31
You're crazy?
55:32
We bread is awesome.
55:33
I'm supposed to eat bacon instead, you're nuts."
55:35
So there is that initial reaction, but we have to share it and kind of open people's
55:43
mind.
55:44
It's not like other things where, "Hey, you know, you're like killing a baby when you
55:49
tell a woman to have an abortion and tell her my body, my choice."
55:53
We need to be more sensitive about it, because it's accepted by so many people.
55:57
And mainly because they don't know and you do.
56:00
You get six babies and you keep one.
56:03
And it's a very, you know, we can't get into it, but people need to know that they approach
56:11
for that chapter is as if everyone believes that in vitro is good, because a lot of people
56:16
do.
56:17
Right.
56:18
It's one of the few points in the book in which we're not preaching to the choir.
56:21
This is a case where most of it were equipping pro-lifers to go out and preach to the not
56:25
choir.
56:26
This is a case where, gosh, you're helping infertile family.
56:29
In my family, we've suffered from infertility.
56:31
You're helping infertile couples to welcome a child.
56:33
Couldn't that be, is there anything that could be more pro-life than this?
56:37
And so we really pull back the curtain on that.
56:39
When I think as well, IVF almost feels like to me a delayed abortion to where like, let's
56:45
say you get six and you only take one as you end up having a baby, the ones that are left
56:49
in storage.
56:51
Those are babies, those are lives that are going to be discarded at some point, but it's
56:55
going to be so out of sight and so out of mind for you that it's just going to be very
56:59
different.
57:00
And the thing is, anytime something can be monetized or commoditized, it will be.
57:04
And in this point, we're literally just commoditizing the creation of human beings.
57:07
But I don't want to get off on another diatribe because I know you guys got to get on with
57:10
the rest of your day.
57:11
And guys, we left a lot to be desired on this interview, even though I think it went well,
57:14
and that just should point to the fact that you guys should go get this book because there's
57:17
so many other topics that we didn't have time to get into, some of the best for life arguments
57:21
you've seen.
57:22
Abortion is just health care.
57:23
Planned Parenthood does so many good things.
57:25
Why are you hating on Planned Parenthood?
57:26
All that stuff is in the book.
57:28
But that's all for me in terms of this interview.
57:30
Is there anything else you guys want to get off your chests?
57:32
No, I appreciate it.
57:33
Keep up the great work.
57:35
Christmas is coming up.
57:36
The supply chains backed up.
57:38
All those boats are stuck off the harbor of California.
57:40
We will not be sold out of what to say when copies.
57:44
You get your cool 40 days for life, patriotic camo hoodie for Christmas.
57:49
Hey guys, we're absolutely crushing to hear all of that will 100% be in the show notes.
57:54
But Sean Carney and Steve Carlin, thank you for coming on Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
57:59
Thank y'all.
58:00
There you go guys.
58:01
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Sean Carney and Steve Carlin, but before we let you
58:04
go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life.
58:06
Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness and specifically we do that by providing
58:10
content like this podcast, it helps you forge spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
58:14
So here are the links I've got for you today.
58:15
I've got a link to the book that we talked about, what to say when the complete new guide
58:18
to discussing abortion.
58:19
I've also got a link to the 40 days for life website.
58:22
There's a lot of great resources on that site and a link to the episode that I did episode
58:25
70 called unplanned.
58:27
And again, the soft hold gun magnet.
58:29
If you use the promo code Kyle, you would get 10% off your order.
58:32
Make sure you do that here very quickly so you can get your stuff before Christmas.
58:35
All right, guys.
58:36
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58:37
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58:38
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58:56
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59:01
For our content, rather, the music track on this podcast is our song "Cutting the Ties,"
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which is off their 10th anniversary re-recording of their album, "Leveler."
59:08
The links are in the description.
59:10
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
59:12
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
59:18
Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
59:35
[Music]