SETH GRUBER | The Last Stand (Ep. 937)

Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional, it is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31days to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31days. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Seth Gruber, welcome back to the show. I just got to say, last time you It was just like with the last time Katie Faust was here. The first time she was here, she came on the second time and I wasn't sure if she was going to keep up the same level of energy. Same with you. I mean, last time you you went so hard, you were 10 out of 10 energy. Do you even have the capability to do it twice in a row? >> I [laughter] I I don't know. But, uh but, uh hanging out with you always fires me up, bro. So, I appreciate you having me on. >> I'm a dozer. I'll tell you that much. Like, you can only take me in small doses. It's usually pretty incendiary for a short period of time and then we'll get into it. But, no, I've been very excited to talk to you because you've got a new film, a new book out. We We talked Had you on last time with the uh 1916 Project. And now we've got your new book and film project. Here's the book right here if you're watching on YouTube or Rumble, The Last Stand. And so, uh I knew you were working on this. You had mentioned it actually on the last podcast that we did, which was hundreds of episodes ago cuz I I remember linking to it in the show notes. But, we you were still kind of in the the fledgling, like early stages of that. And now it's like a full-on thing. It's a book and a film. And so, I was able to to read through this. And guys, you can check this out in the show notes. You can check out the link for the book and for the film. Let's just start 30,000 foot view before we dive in. Why this film when book? Why now? Why you? >> [clears throat and cough] >> Yeah, thank you Kyle. It's you know the number one response we got to the last film and book the 1916 Project which we screened in over a thousand churches across the country Kyle. You can still find screenings by going to the 1960project.com. There's still some of them going on around the country. And the number one response to over 100,000 people I think that came to live in person screenings was I've never heard any of this before. That was like the number one response was just like what the actual heck? How did I not know this? This is so perverted. And I was just unveiling [clears throat] you know the last century or so of >> [clears throat] >> shenanigans and evil that the left has been involved in as it pertains to the sexual revolution and Planned Parenthood. And so I realized oh boy, if the [clears throat] church really knows so little about this situation that we're in in the West right now and how we got to this position then we're really going to need a film and a book that looks at a lot more than just the 20th century. We're going to need to start going into what I call brother the history of Christian resistance. That it has always been Christians who have held the line on these issues. It has always been Christians who have opposed the sexualization of kids, drag queen story hour, drag queen jiggling performances for minors in the public square, the state intervening in the parent-child relationship, the killing of babies in the womb, the killing of babies outside the womb through infanticide, the sexualization of women and little girls, the depersoning of women treating them as the property of their husbands, slavery. It has always been Christians who have opposed and ended these atrocities historically. And we're the only ones with the divine mandate to stand for and proclaim truth, brother. We're the only ones divinely commanded to do so. And so, um we thought that it was time to kind of just look at um >> [clears throat] >> how true that Bible verse is that there's nothing new under the sun. Um and and and a lesser known but really beautiful verse in Psalm 88, Kyle, uh chap uh verse 12, it says, "Righteousness cannot be done in a land of forgetfulness." And we live in a land of forgetfulness. Um you could say remembrance and forgetfulness are the measuring rods of faithfulness throughout the Bible. And reveals that there only there's only two kinds of people in this world, effectual doers and forgetful hearers. All throughout the Old Testament, what do you see? Calls to remembrance. Remember how the Lord delivered you. Remember how he brought you up out of the land of Egypt. We're told, you know, when your [clears throat] son comes to you one day, yeah, and as it says in Deuteronomy, it says, "Father, what are the purpose for these commandments?" You will then tell your son, "We were once slaves in Egypt." and then walk through salvation history. So, each generation hangs suspended by the gossamer thread of memory. Uh if just one cohort of mothers and fathers do not hand down to their children what they learned from their parents and what they learned from their parents, then the the the the thread of learning snaps and we're wandering about in the desert like idiots wondering how the heck we got here. Um and so that's the last stand, Christ or Chaos, The War for the West. And the film is just called The Last Stand. We I filmed in Rome, Paris, and London, arguably the three greatest cities of history actually. Um just to start putting these pieces together. Uh and so, really the message of the film is before there was a pro-life movement, before [clears throat] 1973, before there was a children's rights movement, there was Christendom, baby. There was Christendom. There was the local church. There were Christians who were holding the line. And so, we have to reclaim that like uh Simba in The Lion King, Kyle, we have to remember who we are before we can save our land. >> Well, I think there's there's a lot there because obviously there there's another Psalm that people forget, Psalm 97:10, "O you who love the Lord, hate evil." Well, usually there's a track record of evil, but if we don't understand our history, we won't get there. That's why, you know, we'll talk about Islam a little bit later in the interview. I love the work of Raymond Ibrahim, one of the most foremost modern uh scholars about uh Islam. You know, he can read Arabic, he can read the primary sources. And so, when we think this like conflict in the UK right now between Muslims and we'll just call them, you know, uh English people, right? Just normal like English folk or whatever, >> Right. >> many of which who aren't even Christians, but from come from a Christian heritage. We think that's like a new thing because of the urban uh or not the urban sprawl, but because the the Muslim sprawl and all these Islamic people going from one country to another country. It's like uh nope, this has been happening for [clears throat] thousands of years, right? Since what, the 7th century uh AD that we've been dealing with something like this, dealing with the great dragon that is Islam. But, the entire book is actually dedicated to Charlie Kirk. We see that in the very first page. But, I actually want to read a a little snippet from the last chapter cuz I think it brings us back around to the discussion about Charlie. I'll read the quote here. "Charlie Kirk arguably bore the greatest gospel impact in several generations, yet he did not pass through the approved gates. He did not submit to the credentialing process. He did not follow the playbook. In fact, he did almost everything the theological pastoral experts would have warned him not to do. Sit with that. How do we explain it? And here is the thought that should trouble us deeply. How many young men have had their wings clipped by credentialed class? Men told with pastoral concern, 'You can't offend people like that if you want to be effective in ministry.' I've heard that before. How many enter theological and pastoral training with fire in their bones, only to have that fire methodically cooled, managed, and finally extinguished by leaders they trusted. How many were taught that zeal is a liability, clarity is dangerous, and boldness must be postponed for the sake of the long game? Then came the death of Charlie Kirk, and with it a jolt to the conscience of a generation of young men that were not drawn to his polish. They were not They were drawn by his courage, not to his credentials, but to his clarity, not to his career strategy, but to his zeal. And so, Seth, it's very easy for people that are fans of what you do or fans of what I do to see that same thing. We're constantly told, "Hey, can you just calm down just a little bit? Can you Can you cool it?" As if we're only screaming at people. But it's like, "Look, we're making these points. We're doing them in a bold, straight-faced manner, but we're also doing it in love, and you just don't like the packaging. And so, you want to nip around the edges cuz you know you can't disprove the point." So, what What was it about what you were doing with The Last Stand, and certainly with what we experienced on September 10th of last year, losing Charlie, that made you want to dedicate this not just this book, but this work to him and his legacy? [clears throat] >> Yeah, Kyle. Yeah, well, thank you for for reading the whole book. I I really appreciate that. Um you know, Chesterton once said, brother, "Nine times out of 10, the coarse word is the word that condemns an evil, and the refined word the word that excuses it." Um >> Amen. >> And that is a perfect, actually, um description or framework, Kyle, for the tension between Charlie Kirk and big big evangelicalism, >> [clears throat] >> between the credentialed theological betters who went to all the right seminaries, um who will only preach and speak as much truth as the spirit of the age allows them to, um less they lose their Gospel Coalition conference invitation or their 501c3 status. Um it's the same tension between them and the Charlie's of the world who did not go through any of the proper gates, but [clears throat] they were self-starters, self-taught, and absolutely fearless and courageous in the face of a wicked and depraved culture. And so I I actually gave a talk at one of our galas last year for the White Rose Resistance, Kyle. Uh it was just called a tale of two men. And that was Tim Keller and Charlie Kirk. Kirk and Keller. Um with Tim Keller, you had an incredibly brilliant man, um all the right seminaries, um in Manhattan, New York City, um preaching the gospel, writing best-selling books that helped many people, by the way, brother, um with apologetics and marriage and grief and loss. Um I've read several several of them. I think the Lord did use Tim Keller in some profound ways. But in the later [clears throat] years of his ministry, he made it incredibly clear that he was just going to do the gospel, whatever that whatever that even means, bro. Um and so he was not going to touch on any of the absolutely politically charged insanity in the culture wars. >> [clears throat] >> If those issues were defined by the culture as political. Um in fact, I did a whole word search one time on his entire preaching sermon archive Kyle um for the word like Molech, child sacrifice, um infanticide, abortion, Planned Parenthood Baal. Um I did all these word searches to try to find any sermon on on the life issue, on abortion. Um especially when he's preaching in a city where Margaret Sanger got her beginning. You would think that someone with the theological clarity of a Tim Keller, Kyle, would would address that at least at least on sanctity of life Sunday. Um, you won't [clears throat] find that sermon, Kyle. Excuse me. It doesn't exist. Tim Keller did not preach a sermon on on abortion. But he does have a New York Times article where he um where he basically It's called how do Christians fit into a two-party system? They don't. Um, for people who want to fact-check me. And he basically excoriates Christians who were apolitical during Lincoln's time because their apoliticalness, their refusal to vote and get involved politically, um, was actually furthering evil and they had uh they were to blame. That he literally makes that argument. To refuse to be political on the slavery issue is to be political um and and they were to blame. He absolutely excoriates the Tim Kellers of the 1850s. And then he turns around and says, "Yeah, I'm a registered Democrat." And then he says, "Um, you know, how do we vote how do we, you know, stand for the unborn?" In this article, he's like, "Well, you know, uh you know, both both parties, uh you know, have good and and bad things and uh and you know, we have liberty of conscience to vote for whoever we want." Uh and so he encourages people to follow their conscience uh if their conscience tells them to vote for Kamala Harris because don't you know the border is a pro-life issue or some asinine kind of belief that we have. >> you say when you say that to someone say like you're saying you're following the wrong JC. You're follow following Jiminy Cricket not Jesus Christ. Like let your conscience be your guide. What foolish advice could that be? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what he said. He said, "On on the abortion issue, the slaughter of babies, Kyle, the line from his article." And I'm not I'm not like uh selectively editing here. He's actually talking about the abortion issue in this section. Uh it was a Facebook post. Sorry, the New York Times article is where he's ripping apolitical uh Christians in the 1850s and then a Facebook post right before the Biden election, the Biden-Trump showdown in 2020. Um, he posts this whole Facebook post how we have liberty of conscience when it comes to the abortion issue. So, if your if your conscience, Kyle, tells you, you know, you should vote for Joe Biden, who at that time was the most pro-abortion political candidate in American history. It was also helpful in the FACE Act, which years ago which turned pro-lifers standing outside of abortion mills blocking the entrance to a clinic from a misdemeanor into a felony. So, I mean Joe Biden, obviously, beyond [clears throat] sniffing little girls' necks, he's he's a wicked evil evil baby-hating anti-Christian person. But hey, Kyle, if if your if the live your conscience tells you that the best way to protect the preborn, I know this sounds like so [ __ ] but like the best way to protect unborn babies, Kyle, you know what I I think it's to probably vote for Joe Biden in the 2020 election. Okay. So, that So, and of course Tim Keller timed that Facebook post a month or 6 weeks 8 weeks or something before the election speaking about the political issues. Okay. So, there's there you've got you've got Tim Keller. He probably had the most outsized influence >> [clears throat] >> in modern evangelicalism for shifting the Overton window further left. I've read his entire textbook Center Church. I'm speaking with somewhat authority. It's an entire textbook. It's called Center Church and it's his framework for like how to plant new churches and his big encouragement in the book is like you we as Christians and pastors, church planners, should not be fleeing to um to rural centers. We should be fleeing to urban centers. We should be We should be planting churches in major metropolitan big cities because that's where most of the people are and so that's what we should do right? And so, it's called the city to city or something like that. And he has a whole ministry about this. And this was his whole thing with training church planners to do this. And his influence in how you engage those metropolitan big cities has been insanely damaging to several generations of church planners who who followed Tim Keller's example and said, "We're going to preach the gospel. We're going to preach through the Bible, but you know, I mean, I'm not going to offend the Democrat who might be visiting, you know." And so, Tim Keller tells this whole story. >> [clears throat] >> I am getting to Charlie Kirk, by the way. I just think this is important. He tells this whole story in a in a article in Christianity today called religionless spirituality. It was written in 1999. Anyways, you'll find it still in the Christianity yesterday today archives. And Keller tells a story about an ACLU attorney who started attending his church, Redeemer Presbyterian, in in New York City. And she after a while she ended up getting saved and getting involved in a home group. And so, he tells this story where this ACLU attorney goes to Pastor Tim Keller one day Kyle and says, "Pastor Keller, is abortion wrong?" You can go He tells this whole story in an article. And now, firstly, bro, Kyle, can I tell you something? If you have someone attending your church for one, two, or three years and they don't already know the answer to that question, you have failed as your pastor. Yes, okay. And he and she goes she goes, "Because I'm beginning to think that it might be wrong, abortion." [laughter] And and and he goes he according to the story Tim Keller tells this woman, ACLU attorney, "Yes, it's wrong." And she goes, "Okay, cool. Well, if it's wrong, you know, you should definitely tell people that, but I'm glad about the order in which you did it because if I had ever seen this is what she tells Keller, "If I had ever seen any reference to the unborn or the pro-life movement at all when I started visiting the church, I would have never come back." That's right. But I stayed and I got saved and now I'm in a home group. And so, Tim Keller uses this story in this article in 1999 in Christianity yesterday called religionless spirituality which you can get the full text of online to say "Isn't this a great way that I do preaching and evangelism? Because gosh, if I have ever like preached a message on like the spirit of Margaret Sanger down the road in Greenwich Village, you know, this ACLU attorney, I mean, SHE WOULDN'T HAVE COME BACK. >> [clears throat] >> You know, and so isn't it great that I never So in other words, in Keller's framework, clerical silence in the face of child sacrifice is an excellent means of evangelism. Um but no, it's not. It's cowardice. And your job as the pastor is not to be an evangelist from the pulpit, although altar calls are totally fine. There's nothing wrong with that, Kyle. But your your job as the pastor is not to be an evangelist on Sunday mornings. It's to disciple the sons and daughters of God. It's to disciple his church. That's why we go to church. And then what was Keller's final legacy before he died? Segregating his church between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated on Sunday mornings and checking vaccine passports. And if you didn't have the jab, you could go sit in the balcony with the other unwashed nasty masses. And then he died. Okay. All right then. Encouraging people to vote for pro-abortion Democrats. Silence on the slaughter of children. And segregating your people. And then he died. And then there was Charlie, who did the absolute opposite of everything that Tim Keller and his friends at the Gospel Coalition would have told him and trained him to do. And Kyle, that is not hyperbole. That is not hyperbole. They would have told him, wait, take some time, study, go to school, get get under a church. And Charlie goes to what I think are the shadowlands of the west. Remember that scene in The Lion King? Right? Takes Simba up on Pride Rock and says everything the light touches is yours. >> Yep. >> And Simba And then Simba's like, "Well, what about that over there?" >> [laughter] >> Um well, that question is the mission. Those are the shadowlands that have not yet acknowledged the authority and kingship of Jesus Christ. So, we should go there. Those would be the college campuses of America brother. The shadowlands of America would be our university college campuses. That's where Charlie went. And to to make a long story short, isn't it interesting and isn't it ironic, brother? You couldn't have invented this level of irony. This is just providence. This is just the Lord and his humor. Used a man that the evangelical church by and large wanted nothing to do with. Now, some people might disagree with that and say, "Seth, but look at Turning Point Faith. Look how many pastors are getting engaged." Right, because people started waking up after the COVID test and then after the Roe v. Wade getting overturned test and then even more so after they murdered him and martyred him in the public square. So, of course Turning Point Faith is bigger now than it's ever been before, but that was Charlie's whole goal. I was there when he planted it, when he started Turning Point Faith. I was in the room with my pastor, Rob McCoy, Calvary Chapel. I was there when the first gathering of pastors came together that launched Turning Point Faith. And there weren't many, bro. There weren't many at the time. Um but by and large, if you look at the evangelical church, think of the biggest evangelical conferences, okay? Kyle Passion, um Together for the Gospel, The Gospel Coalition, I'm sure I've forgotten some others. Um wasn't it great all the times they had Charlie out? Oh, wait. No. Yeah, that not a single time. That's right. Um and never invited to guest write in Christianity Yesterday or The Gospel Coalition or any of these publications. The evangelical church by and large wanted nothing to do with Charlie. Why? Because he was associated with MAGA, which makes you a nasty, filthy Christian who sold your birthright for a bowl of porridge, according to to our evangelical betters. So, how ironic and how humorous, huh, Kyle? That the Lord used the martyrdom of Charlie, who probably was in the last 18 months one of the most high-profile defenders of Christianity in the West, actually. >> Yep. >> Um to build a stage that produced the single largest evangelistic gospel preaching event in human history. Wait, hold on. That's not supposed to happen though, Kyle, cuz I'm Russell Moore and I'm David French and um I'm Rick Warren and um we tell the church how to create gospel opportunities. We tell them how to make disciples. Right. No, you're you're all [ __ ] You've all sold your birthright for a bowl of pottage. You're all cowards. Okay, there's a reason why Rick Warren was invited to Davos with Klaus Schwab every year and Jack Hibbs wasn't, okay? Just like there's a reason why Russell Moore was MSNBC's phone-a-Christian and Voddie Bauckham was not. Okay? Ju- just like Tim Keller could could write for the New York Times opinion editorial, but Eric Metaxas cannot. Okay? Because the former are hirelings and the latter can't be bought. Evangelicalism, by and large, does not care about pure and undefiled religion. They do not care about courage. They do not care about obedience to to Jesus. They do not care about standing for the unborn. They do not care about standing for the child with two dads. They do not care about standing for the babies who are being bought and sold in the multi-billion dollar industry known as big fertility. They do not care about the pornographic sex ed in our schools. Why? Because the evangelical church, by and By the way, I'm speaking as an evangelical and yes, there are many exceptions and they're warrior brothers and they have me in their churches and I have them in my conferences and there's always a remnant. Amen and amen. By and large, the evangelical church is a joke. They do not care about standing for the truth on these issues because they do not want to offend a post-Christian pagan public that they want to convince to walk into their building on a Sunday morning. And Charlie did the absolute opposite. And now you had, right after the election of Trump in 2024. Every legacy news media is reporting Trump wins because of record young male vote. And then they all started making the connections, Kyle. They all started going, "Oh, and by the way, the person probably singularly responsible for getting Trump the young male vote is Charlie Kirk." And then they murder him and we have record-level Bible sales. Zondervan couldn't print enough Bibles to keep up with the Bible orders, Kyle. There is record-level church attendance of young Gen Z men going back to church unlike anything we've seen in our lifetime or our parents' lifetime, Kyle. Every single one of my warrior pastor friends said that Sunday following the martyrdom of Charlie, every service was packed, every parking lot packed, and the foyer overflowing between services. Multiple salvations and multiple baptisms. Big evangelicalism has never produced that fruit, brother. >> Well, here's the thing on about Big Eva. You have a lot of people yes, there's the at least tangential connections to the left, but it's almost this inability to hold people in tension. So, let's use an extreme example. Someone like Ravi Zacharias, which allegedly he was a a tremendous sexual deviant. He was also an incredible philosopher and Christian apologist, right? And so, do we just ignore everything he taught us about apologetics and argumentation because of what he may have done in his personal life? I leave that up to to individuals, but I'm not offloading everything that he taught me. But we So, Keller's another one that we should be able to hold in tension because yeah, he gave us some tremendous books, some tremendous Bible studies, and he performed poorly as a shepherd towards the end of his life. But when we get into Big Eva, this gets into what you talk about in chapter two, honestly, Seth, where you talk about the the flatulent church cuz you know, in chapter one you go through okay, kind of the the first lie, right? So you have Eve in the garden with the with the dragon, Satan. You you go through there, but a couple of quotes from chapter two kind of get into this whole thing with big big Eva in the church. Indeed Indeed, evil doesn't change. It may wear different masks, but it's the same energy. However, the church in the West has changed. The flatulent church has replaced the militant church. And if something doesn't change soon, it will be replaced by the irrelevant church, at least as far as the West goes. And then there's a little one a little bit later in chapter two, the whole of God's activity in his word, not just the parts we are comfortable with. We see the evangelical cultural engagement model of the last 100 plus years has been limited to Jesus on the cross and Jesus in our hearts, excluding all talk of Jesus at war, a war that has raged since the very beginning. And here's one of the other big issues I have with kind of this, you know, this soft approach to evangelism and kind of the come one, come all, which that is the message of the gospel, come one, come all, but when it comes to the church, is who does the saving? Is it the pastor, is it the ministry, or is it God? Is God sovereign over salvation, or is he not? Cuz I'll hear a pastor say that, and then they'll still be playing secular music during the worship sets. They have female elders. They they do all the things that culture thinks is so nice when when they pat them on the head until they don't. And so just talk about really why this is the last stand right now in terms of the the the timing of history, and how the flatulent church is running the risk of very quickly becoming the irrelevant church. >> Yeah, thank you, Kyle. Well, the [clears throat] Charlie setup is is really beautiful, and I appreciated the chance to be able to honor him. We did dedicate the Last Stand film and book to him. Um Charlie was certainly not um my best friend. We certainly didn't even speak every week, but I would say we communicated every month. Um I'm I'm so grateful that he had good men around him regularly and daily. Um but the Lord allowed us to become friends and um >> [clears throat] >> he actually gave the seed money um for me to launch the White Rose Resistance in 2022 and was scheduled to speak at the last stand festival that we just had on June 5th and 6th in Denver um recently. So, [clears throat] we dedicated the whole film and book to him because he has had the single largest outsized gospel influence in several generations. I mean, you think about the Billy Graham stuff, right? Um his preaching stuff. Th- Th- Those were nothing compared to the number of people who heard the gospel at Charlie's memorial. And yes, that is due to live streaming and the internet, obviously. But they were tracking s- viewers from all around the world. Hm. Kyle. Uh and I was in the building. I was in Arizona at the memorial. Um and then all the vigils, thousands of prayer vigils where the gospel was given by a local pastor. Um it's it's pretty I mean bro, historians are going to be writing about that for years. The outsized gospel influence of what happened. >> Yeah, even secular sociologists which couldn't help but notice how every church in the West was completely full to the brim the Sunday after he died. >> Yeah, exactly. And so And so you have to start asking, well, why? Why? And And And why doesn't our current evangelical cultural engagement model, why is that not producing anywhere near the number of fruits, the sa- the the same level of fruit? Well, it's it's because we've had the model all wrong. We thought that it was carefully curating our message and making sure that people looked at a church with a Jesus that looked attractive. We We thought that that was going to have an outsize gospel influence. We thought that that was how we were going to do evangelism and discipleship. Um and that didn't work. People are not drawn to titles. They're not drawn to pragmatism. Um they're drawn to courage. Um and that's why so many people and young men in particular so respected Charlie Kyle um was not because of his smarts, although he certainly had them. It was not because of his ability to fundraise, although he was incredible. It wasn't because of his political ground game, although it was unmatched. It was because of his courage and it was because he was a threat to evil. And we all know that's why they murdered him, Kyle. We all know that's why. We all know that he would have been president one day. We We all know that he was viewed as the leading political force in the conservative movement who was almost uh leading the conservative movement like a king and his court. I knew Charlie decently enough to be able to tell you that. Um if he wanted something done, he could get it done within the conservative movement. Incredible influence for that age. Um and thousands of people um crediting Charlie for their their faith journey and their coming to Christianity. And so he had to be taken out. And I don't again, I don't know the all the details and what the truth was behind that whole horrific ins- ins- incident, but we know it was because he was a threat to evil. And so I think that that's such an indictment on the evangelical church today, Kyle, because how many of us are a threat to evil? >> That's right. >> of us And remember, it was because of his courage and his threat to evil that he was martyred that created the single largest evangelistic gospel preaching event in human history. >> That's right. >> So, so we're like, oh, hold on, that's right, the blood of the saints is the seed of the church. Maybe we need to learn how to take a a beating for Jesus again. And so this really is such a powerful introduction to the entire film and book we did, Kyle, The Last Stand, because for 1900 years that has been the heritage and legacy of the church. The church was suffering for righteousness, suffering to defend the young, the vulnerable, the babies, the voiceless, the marginalized, the unloved and the unlovely. That's our heritage, that's our legacy. It's not the legacy of of liberalism, it's not the legacy of um the followers of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. It's it's not the legacy of the the sexual liberationists um with Kate Millett and Margaret Sanger and Alfred Kinsey. Um no, that's always been the legacy of the church. And so that's really the invitation is to is to enter that battlefield again, because that is our battlefield as the church. But I think that we've um are so far down the waters of secular liberalism and sort of our our modern culture that we've forgotten um exactly what makes civilizations great in the first place. And this is why we called it The Last Stand, Kyle. I really believe we're in a last stand moment. I really believe that. I don't think we have a lot of time left to save the West. Uh now Christ is on the throne, he's ruling and reigning, he wins in the end, amen, but that should not be a reason for you to abdicate uh and sit and watch Andy Stanley livestream sermons. Um that should be a reason for you to get off your rear end and go fight the battle Jesus came to win. Go stand for truth. Go stand for the unborn. Go stand for your family. Raise dragon slayers to be a threat to evil. Um and so um there's this interesting um maybe maybe I'll tell your listeners why I'm trying to convince them that that we that really we're we're going to lose Western civilization within our lifetime if something doesn't change soon. Um, there was this interesting Oxford anthropologist and ethnologist named J.D. Unwin. And he wrote a book is a study in 1934, uh, called Sex and Culture. I have it over there by the window, but it's about this fact. And it's not very exciting reading cuz it's like uh, research methods and conclusions and data sets and stuff like that. But if you can get through it, um, it's incredibly sobering and incredibly shocking because he looked at 86 civilizations over 5,000 years. Now, most Christians, Kyle, believe the Earth's only been around for a little over 6,000 years, so he looked at 5,000 years of recorded human history and 86 86 different civilizations asking the question, what makes civilizations rise and thrive? And what makes civilizations decline and fall? And what is that, right? And his findings were incredibly consistent, historically ruthless, and ought to be the greatest wake-up call to pastors, Christians, and those who still care about Western civilization as we know it today. And so he said there was not one exception to this rule. And what's interesting, by the way, is he has all that credentialism that the, uh, liberal academic left usually likes, you know, Oxford and Cambridge and, um, but of course anytime, um, anytime caliber, um, well-researched data is a threat to secular liberalism or the promises of the sexual revolution, then they just bury it, right? They did that with Peter McCullough, right? Think about that. >> Right. >> They do that with anyone who dares to look at the link between abortion and breast cancer in women, which, like, I could prove. It doesn't matter. They just bury it. They bury it. Doesn't matter how well-researched it was or how well-credentialed the the researchers were behind it. So, they've done the same thing to J.D. Unwin. In fact, I went viral on my friends at CrossPolitic podcast at AmFest in December. I think it's over 3 million views now on Instagram explaining what I'm about to tell your listeners. And then Meta came in, fact-checked it, um totally blunted the virality, and said there's no evidence that uh that uh so- so- societies uh can't have sexual freedom and continue to exist. And they just totally killed the reel because he's he's been completely ignored. And you will never hear the name J.D. Unwin if you go to a four-year state-funded college university in the sociology program. And so, he said there was a 100% correlation between uh the coupling of what he called prenuptial chastity with absolute monogamy and cultural advancement, cultural energy, cultural power. In other words, don't have sex before you get married and only have sex with your spouse after you get married, and basically have babies. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. The societies who honored that, who codified that, gave us, he said, the best of everything. The best art, the best culinary like food, the best architecture, the best buildings, um the best um families, the strongest standing armies. In all ways, these cultures exceeded every other and had the most energy to build things. And he said only three cultures or civilizations ever reached that high level of energy, um and it was the Athenians, the Romans, and the English, okay? And then, in the inverse, he he said there's a 100% correlation. And here's the wake-up call for our moment, bro. Between the codification of total sexual freedom and the death of your civilization. >> But then, G- three generations. >> Yeah, once societies adopt laissez-faire, Woodstock, free the nipple, Jacobin, Margaret Sanger, second-wave feminist, free love insanity, then you're done. And but it was interesting, he said it was there was a legal aspect to it in his book. Like he he didn't just say like, "Oh, there's been some cultural changes, and now Will and Grace is a super popular show. It's like no, it wasn't just like a cultural change like Hollywood's pushing gay marriage stuff in their shows now. He said no, no, no, specifically it was the codification of what he called total sexual freedom that started a 90 to 100 year clock countdown to civilizational replacement. So, that means that politics is super important that there's a legal aspect that is super important to understand. When a society legalizes total sexual freedom they they that's the beginning of the end. And he defined it a generation in his book by about like 30 to 33 year increments. So, basically 90 to 100 years if nothing changes, you've lost your civilization and you're replaced by another civilization that still has great social energy. So, I guess the question for us and Kyle to understand like what moment we're in right now is when did America embrace total sexual freedom? What when the heck did that happen? A lot of people say the 60s I think Seth you know, the Woodstock 1969 and all of that probably accurate totally. I think it was 1973. >> Yeah. >> Because he says it's the codification of total sexual freedom. And I know this sounds like this might sound hyperbolic to your listeners like really Seth you're saying that like we're in the second half already of a 100 year story 90 to 100 years and that within our lifetime we're going to watch the the absolute destruction and fall of Western civilization as we know it today. Because yes, I am saying that. I know that sounds insane because we we are so comfort comfortable and accustomed to liberty Kyle. We're we're so fat on liberty. We've mistaken it for licentiousness. We think that America is just going to continue perpetually. It reminds me of something Hilaire Belloc said Chesterton's best friend. He said that the modern world imagines that it has outgrown religion. It has done nothing of the kind. It has merely forgotten it. And because it has forgotten it, it no longer understands itself. He says, "Men do not realize that the entire framework of their um moral opinions, their political habits, and even their intellectual methods were formed within a Christian society and cannot exist long outside of it. When that framework breaks, they will not find themselves enlightened but bewildered, not free but enslaved." And so he gave us the first analogy of Western civilization to a cut flower. A cut flower. Super interesting, Kyle. Um he he said, "Western civilization is a cut flower that's been ripped out of its soil. So we've put that flower in a vase and we put it on our kitchen counters in our homes, Kyle. And liberals and conservatives alike, we've said, 'What a beautiful flower that is. Don't you like my beautiful flower?' And then some petals fall and we're thinking, 'Man, isn't it so pretty?'" Um I guess I guess as pretty as a dead thing can be. Cuz that flower's already dead. It was completely ripped out of its life source. Completely severed. And and put on life support. Some little water in there. Keep it beautiful for a time. But cut flowers die, Kyle. So what we have is the remnants of Western civilization formerly known as Christendom. And we get to enjoy its blessings. We get to admire its beauties. And we get to function off of its moral capital. But it's dead. And and it as I know from this film called Beauty and the Beast, when the last petal falls, the curse is sealed. You're done. There's no going back. There's no There's no saving the flower. There's only being replaced. And so what is the soil that gave us these such beautiful flowers that we've taken for granted in America, in the land of the free and the home of the brave for so long? Things like what? The moral law? Accountability? A high-trust society? A safe place for women? Where children are honored and protected? The sanctity of life? The freedom of speech? Freedom of religion? W- W- Were these products of the Enlightenment? The French Revolution? No, that that their revolution ended in an orgiastic bloodbath with brothels full of children and drag in the Palais Royal and blood everywhere. Heads rolling everywhere. The first feminist, Mary Wollstonecraft, went on a walk in downtown Paris while they were doing this and she slips on the previous night's dried inches thick of blood. Kind of a funny analogy, by the way, right? Secular libs walking in the bloodbath of their own invention and slipping on it and hurting themselves. Sort of a interesting picture. I- Is that why we have such freedoms in America? Was it because of Maximilien Robespierre? No, they ended with a tyrant called Napoleon. We ended with a guy named George Washington that everyone was telling him, "Become the king OF AMERICA." "WE WANT YOU TO BE THE KING." AND HE GOES "NO." And um Jefferson later writing, fascinating, Kyle, that it was that singular moment that saved the American states as we know it today. He said, "Almost every revolution is" I'm paraphrasing, "almost every revolution is eventually um destroyed as soon as they get the freedoms that they wanted because then a strong man becomes the new tyrant." So, it's just like it's just cyclical. And he said, "That one moment when George Washington refused to become like Napoleon and said, 'No. No. This is going to be a land of liberty with separation of powers.' That was the moment that saved America." Okay. So, that wasn't the fruit of the Enlightenment. That wasn't the fruit of the French Revolution. What gave birth to these principles that we have been uh drinking from, operating off of, and assuming you're going to last forever is fundamentally Christian soil. That's what gave birth to these ideas. So now, because you and I, Kyle, and our parents, and our grandparents were all born in a society where better men bled and died and gave up their lives and sacred honors to give us these liberties. Because we've been born into this, we're like a fish in water. It's all that we know. We just think, "Oh, isn't this awesome?" And so most men don't have either the testicular fortitude or the historical knowledge to be able to diagnose what moment we're in right now in 2026, America's 250th birthday. Can we expect America can to to continue perpetually without belief? No. And and if we think that we can replay every scene of the French Revolution, scene by scene, and expect this to not ender end up beneath a blade, we're an idiot. If we think we can replay the final days of decadent Rome without this ending the same way, we're an idiot. If we think that J.D. Unwin's research, looking at 86 civilizations over 5,000 years, and not a single civilization was able to escape this one rule, that once you codify total sexual freedom, if you don't do anything to right the ship within 90 to 100 years, your civilization is over and you're replaced, it if if no civilization was able to escape that litmus test, but we think we will, then we are pompous, arrogant asses who deserve everything that will happen to America in the next 50 years. >> Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you train for very specific things. So maybe you've got a mud race coming up, a mountain hunt, a 5K, or maybe you just want to keep up with your kids, or you just don't want to let the old man in. But for a lot of you guys, whether you're working out at the Globo Gym or even in your garage gym, you get there and you just don't know exactly what to do. And so you just kind of settle for the same old workout routine, maybe some bench press, bicep curls, a walk on the treadmill, and you know you're not really getting the most out of your workout plan. And I want you guys to stop wasting time at the gym. No more settling. It's time for you guys to get a guide to help you reach your fitness goals. And that's why I want to remind you about my good friends at Mountain Tough. Mountain Tough is a fitness and mental toughness app developed by military special operators and mountain hunters that's becoming a global movement for building mentally tough athletes on and off the mountain. Mountain Tough is a native app ready to be downloaded on all platforms, so that includes iPhone, Android, Apple TV, Roku, and there's more. Once you sign up and download the app or access the website, you immediately have access to hundreds of exercise programs and literally thousands of workout videos. Thousands. So that includes structured hybrid strength endurance programs, daily workouts, the full exercise library, mental toughness training, the Mountain Tough community and accountability. And you can use it all on the go, online or offline, no matter where you decide to train. So if you're just getting started, that's great. They have programs for beginners. If you have minimal or no gear where you train, that's not a factor. They have minimal gear and body weight programs. And guys, if you're wanting to get into or maintain elite level fitness, they've got you covered with programs for top tier athletes, too. And for a limited time, Mountain Tough is extending Undaunted Lifers like you an incredible offer. Go to mountaintough.com, that's mtntough.com, and enter the code Kyle when you sign up for a monthly plan to receive your first month free after your 14-day trial. So that's 6 weeks free to make sure this is for you. I'm sure it will be. That is 6 weeks free on the best-in-class physical and mental training app in the world. So stop wasting time. It's time to get real fitness results. Let my friends at Mountain Tough guide the way. Again, go to mtntough.com, promo code Kyle. Well, it's because Seth, we think we know better. Obviously, like I you know, Unwin's one, Camille Paglia has done the same thing. And the interesting thing about Camille Paglia >> She's waking up. >> she's a secular atheist lesbian who's looking at all these these things, all these all the largess of, you know, you could add to the other most important cities, you can add Jerusalem, you can add Athens, and all these different areas of largess, and what it leads [clears throat] to, and where we think we know better. And in one of those areas, Seth, that I think that's interesting because you talk about it in the book, and it's part of this whole last you know, final battle, this last stand is big fertility. When we're looking at IVF and when we're looking at surrogacy. Because there's the evil that's easy to recognize, and then there's the evil that's a little bit more subtle. And so, the evil that's easy to recognize is when you see the the country music singer and his, you know, sodomite husband, if you can call him that, you know, basically talking to their baby, asking their baby, "Do you want dada or papa?" And the baby says, "Mama." Right? And you could see the evil of that. It's absolutely heartbreaking, disgusting. It makes me so mad I could spit nails. But then at the same time hearing Christians castigate me for laying out in stark detail and moral clarity the issues with the IVF process. A process that has given me a niece and a nephew, by the way. But people are just like, "How dare you get after these Christian couples that just want to have babies?" I'm like, "Praise God that they have babies that have been born that are now breathing air here, but what about their brothers and sisters?" And I've talked with, you know, Katie Faust about it, and I've been asked before, "But Kyle, what if the technology gets to where we can just do one to one, right? You know, one baby that's created in a test tube outside of the conjugal union as put forth by God as the the the means by which we do this whole thing about propagating the species. What if we just do a one to one?" It's like, "Well, we have that technology now, we we don't do it." And so, this idea that it becomes cleaner and nicer if you put a cross up in the lobby of your IVF facility and say, "Oh, we're only doing one-to-one transfers." But, you're encouraging people to do things outside of the way that God designed them to be done, right? This isn't like getting a shot of penicillin or, you know, taking creatine. Like, this is something entirely different cuz it's the creation of life. But, Seth, I just got to tell you, this is the one thing other than my idea that pit bulls are wild animals and shouldn't be owned by by anybody in the public. I've never had anyone be more angry at me and and try to get me to lose sponsors, lose money, lose all kinds of things by me just pointing out the obvious. And it's coming from Christians. And it's just pointing out the obvious that, look, IVF is dangerous. Big fertility is dangerous. It's not just gaming making designer babies and putting them into the rented wombs of women. But, just talk about how big fertility, I guess the overarching category, plays into this whole idea of the last stand. >> Yeah, totally. Well, in each case, the objectification of babies resulted in the commodification of babies. And that was as true in ancient Rome as it is today. And I'll connect that right now cuz this is really, really important for the church and for your listeners to understand history, bro. But, before I do, really briefly, I forgot to say, here's why I think 1973 was the beginning of America codifying total sexual freedom to use J.D. Unwin's phrase, which starts a 90-to-100-year countdown to civilization replacement. Roe v. Wade baby killing codified through point of birth in all 50 states by the taxpayer for any reason or no reason at all. Okay, so baby killing. So, you don't have total sexual freedom, Kyle, unless you have the right to murder the products of your total sexual freedom. >> Yep. >> Think about that. Are you totally sexually free if you have to take responsibility for your sexual choices? No. You're only totally free. Now, we're using free in the in the liberal sense, right? In the liberals' definition. But, you're only totally sexually free if you can have orgasms without responsibility. If you can have literally murder the products of your sexual freedom. Now now you have total sexual freedom cuz you don't have to take responsibility. So 1973, what else happened? Endangered Species Act. So the same year we declared open season on little little humans, Kyle. The same year we gave greater legal protections to sea turtles and porpoises. By the way, fulfilling GK Chesterton's prophetic warning that wherever there is animal worship, there will be human sacrifice. And then one other thing, the United States Supreme Court removed their obscenity laws, thereby allowing the widespread and legal distribution of pornography. That also happened in 1973. So because I'm not Andy Stanley and I'm not I'm not unhitched from the Old Testament Kyle. Inside joke. Then not to this audience. Those to me sound like Molech, Baal, and Ashtoreth. Child sacrifice, animal worship, and sex cult orgy weird stuff. Okay? That's a demonic trinity and every time that God's people tolerated or participated with those three demons, Molech, Baal, and Ashtoreth. I see this theme in the Old Testament, Kyle, of something like God being like I'm done with you. Later. You can be ruled by people who hate you. Here's some pagan hordes. All right, bye-bye. That's like the theme of the Old Testament. It's like >> [laughter and gasps] >> it's like you I told you not to kill babies. Stop having orgies on the high places. Tear down the Asherah poles, Gideon, right? And then Baal who they would also sacrifice babies to, but then he's like half animal and it's a really weird like anthropomorphic weird thing. And I'm like hold on, 1973 is like a total modern reprise of that. It's also a total modern reprise of the French Revolution. The deification of nature, the endangerment of children's rights, and the murder of babies. And so that's I think really the the beginning of America's last stand moment. So 73, 83, 93, 2003, 2013, 2023, right? So we're more than 50 years in to according to what J.D. Unwin says Kyle's a 90-to-100-year countdown to civilization replacement, which is why the threat of Islam should be the greatest wake-up call to everyone right now, and we'll get to that later. So, but you know what's interesting is the whole codification of child sacrifice, the whole codification of abortion in 1973, Kyle, it's completely connected to IVF. It's completely connected to what you just said, to what you asked me. Because what we saw in ancient Rome was the same exact thing. Okay? They didn't start with the buying and selling of babies. They started with abortion and infanticide. They started with um objectifying babies as non-persons who could be treated however they wanted by their parents. In ancient Rome, Kyle, abortion was legal. So was infanticide. Like people forget this because, you know, we tend to like what's that whole like meme of like asking your husband like uh how many hours he spends about ancient Rome or something like that, that funny meme. And we just have such a fascination for ancient Rome. I mean, these you know, these like gladiator-sized men and and and I mean, ruling over the entire known world at that time. Um and we think about the Republican ideals that they gave us and the columned buildings and all of this stuff that we I mean, really you know, the ancient Rome has is really the singular biggest connecting point to the modern world of what we've learned and gotten from them. And so, we have this sort of like high respect for Rome. And and and there is things to admire there, but it often causes us to completely forget the barbarism that was the ancient world and the kind of perversion that the early church was born into, Kyle. What kind of culture they were facing as as they were called to go do ministry and evangelize and disciple. And so, in ancient Rome, abortion was legal. The preborn child was viewed as part of the mother's body in in Roman law. Sound familiar? And what's interesting is they had an interesting concept that allowed them to sort of justify the mistreatment of like basically anyone. It was a concept of logos, which is I find really fascinating. If you're a Christian you should be thinking of a chapter in the Bible right now. And so logos meaning logic, rationality, speech. It's what separates us from the animals. And so that was their most important concept. They wrote about this a lot. You see this in a lot of the early church fathers, a lot of the Roman philosophers, okay? Like Cicero and others. And so they thought that the freeborn male had the most logos. They did not think that infants, babies, toddlers, or children had logos. They did not think slaves had logos. And they didn't think most women had logos. So a man could beat his wife and that was legal, Kyle. Like people forget this ancient Rome. You could treat your wife however you wanted with she had no legal recourse to protect herself. >> Yeah, you had complete control of life or death over your whole family. >> Oh yeah, absolutely. It was called it was the doctrine called paterfamilias. If people want to know the technical term. And so a little to be a little boy in ancient Rome basically came along with the guarantee of being raped by older men. So all this was normal. It so was abandoning infants. So they had certain walls outside of Roman cities called infanticide walls. Kyle, some people called them high places. And this is where you would go to put an infant that you didn't want. You just want to get rid of your baby. You know, throw it in the woods. You know, just walk outside of Alexandria or Rome. Just walk outside the walls and there's certain wall you just put your baby there on the wall to be eaten by animals or die from the weather or starvation. Later Christians started something called life watches in the early 3rd century, so the early 200s, mobilizing local Christians to watch the infanticide walls where people would abandon babies. And so Christians it was the first iteration of pro-life sidewalk counseling. Kyle. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, pro-life sidewalk counseling didn't start in the 70s, it started in the 3rd century. Um, where Christians would watch where people would take babies to be killed. Um, and then they would run up and rescue the baby and place that baby in a Christian home and raise that baby in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Super cool. But, guess what would happen if a Christian, if there weren't enough Christians to rescue that abandoned infant on an infanticide wall, Kyle? Pimps would rescue them. I'm not joking. >> Yep. >> What was written about in large, uh, writing by Justin Martyr, the church father, is that he said most foundlings became sex slaves in brothels. This is what Justin Martyr said, the church father. Most foundlings, what's a foundling? Someone who finds an infant just laying just laying there. So these abandoned babies on on infanticide walls, there were not enough Christians to rescue the amount of babies being abandoned. So you had decades and centuries of the of the objectification of babies who could be treated like trash by society and by their parents, just like we treat preborn babies today. And what did this result in? A society that murders its young will eventually sell its young. A society that objectifies babies will eventually commodify babies and children. So these children, when they were rescued by pimps, it wasn't a rescue. They were raised in a brothel to begin a life of child sexual slavery. So what did this result in? It result It It resulted in the same exact thing that's happening in America and the West right now through big fertility and third-party reproductive technologies, accidental incest. This is what happened. In ancient Rome, think about the dad, Kyle, for your listeners, who who put his infant on an infanticide wall. He walked outside of Rome. He left his baby to to be to die, to be eaten by an animal. He think So, he thinks his daughter's dead right? >> [laughter] >> Oh, it turns turns out what he didn't know is that 15 hours later a a pimp who runs a brothel in Rome was walking by cuz he knows sometimes he can get sex slaves from the infanticide walls. Which is the same reason, by the way, that Planned Parenthood, the largest infanticide wall I'm sorry, the largest abortion Freudian slip. The largest abortion [clears throat] provider in the world today is also the largest provider of the pornographic comprehensive sexuality education, sexualizing kids in schools. And they're the second largest provider of cross-sex hormones and puberty blockers. Oh, how funny. You're telling me that the sacrifice of babies and the sexualization of kids, that those two sins have been linked since time immemorial. And so, turns out a pimp rescued the little girl that was abandoned by her father on an infanticide wall, but it wasn't a rescue. And so, that pimp raised his daughter in a brothel. So, local degenerate dads can go get their rocks off in downtown Rome. So, 14 years later, that dad, who 14 years ago left his daughter out in the woods, he's having a fight with his wife. He wants to go be promiscuous. So, he walks down to downtown Rome to visit a local brothel. And he pays to have sex with his daughter. Justin Martyr, who probably wrote more on children's rights than any other church father, Kyle, said, "Not only were most foundlings raised in brothels, but many Roman families were accidentally having sex with their family members." What I I hope your audience is seeing the connection I'm making right here. If you objectify babies and children long enough and you treat them as non-persons, eventually, you'll commodify them. Why? Because they're objects. >> That's right. >> Who cares? If we can kill this thing, we can certainly sell it. It's not a >> [laughter] >> not a person anyway. They don't have logos. They don't have logos. And that was how ancient Rome defined who a person was, Kyle, whether you possess logos or not, which by the way, makes John chapter 1 absolutely beautiful when you think about how the ancient Roman world would have would have read the words, "The logos became flesh, and he has made his dwelling amongst us." You're like, "Whoa. Whoa, the word This is the capital L logos. He's got so much logos, Kyle, when he opened his mouth one day, the Milky Way came out." But he chose to identify with us as a fetus at the most vulnerable stage and a location where ancient Rome declared you were not a person if you resided. And then that's where the savior shows up. You know, you see how scandalous John 1 is now? Cuz all ancient Romans were like, "Logos is all that matters. If you don't have logos, you're not a person." And then the logos, the creator, becomes a baby as a fetus who's supposed to not have person according to ancient Roman law. I mean, this is what furnishes the concept of children's rights, by the way, for the early church and for western civilization as we know it today. Well, what is happening with our culture right now in the 21st century, Kyle? We codified infanticide, feticide, baby killing, abortion in 1973. It's been over 50 years of the objectification of babies. We were told they weren't persons. We were told we could treat them however we wanted. That their rights um never superseded the desires of adults and their right to {quote} bodily autonomy. And now after 50 years of this, now we've got this juggernaut on our hands called big fertility and third-party reproductive technologies. And what has it creating created? Well, it's created it's created many things. It sounds like you've had my dear friend Katie Faust on. I was having Katie on when no one would touch her. No one would have her on a podcast. I lost donors by having her on and I got the same angry emails that you get, Kyle. How dare you come out against IVF? So, Katie and I are and our families are dear friends. So, now this objectification of babies has given us this juggernaut of the commodification of children where children do not have a right to their mother and father. You can you can buy human beings today in the 21st century. People don't understand this. It is legal to buy and sell babies. As long as you do it through the big through the multi-billion dollar industry known as big fertility and as long as you write a check large enough to keep the birth mother and the bio mother out of the baby's life. It's completely legal. People don't understand this. You could be a single adult male, just a single dude, or you could just be you could be two sodomites. It doesn't really matter as as long as you're rich enough and you can write a check big enough, brother, then you get to circumvent the background checks, home studies, and psychological studies that anyone else would have to go through if they wanted to adopt. Right? So, how does this work? Let me make this last connection point for your audience. The same conclusion that we saw with ancient Rome that we're now seeing the early signs of today right now. Well, [snorts] the dude he you know, he wants to make some money. So, he jacks off and he sells his sperm. Right? And then two two lesbians they they decide, well, we need sperm. So, you know, they they buy a guy's sperm. Well, it turns out that guy just really enjoys making money that way and so he has now fathered 50, 60, 70 children. There are multiple there are men all across America, Kyle and the West who have fathered in the neighborhood of 30, 40, 50, 60 children. >> Yep. >> And so, let's say those those infertile like struggling with fertility couple or the lesbians or the single female, whatever. Um they are living in a general area as the guy who's been selling his sperm. Now, it's very likely that that sperm donor, quote and quote, there's no such thing as a sperm donor. He's always paid for it. Um he could have fathered dozens of biological children who live in the same county. So, I'm now reading stories in America and in the West, Kyle, of two kids in their 20s who went on a Tinder date and then they had a fling and then they later discovered that was their sibling. But accidental incest has happened before, hasn't it? >> Yep, sure has. >> Happened in ancient Rome and it was a byproduct of what? Abortion and infanticide. It was a byproduct of objectifying babies. Why not sell that which you can kill? Why not profit off of that which doesn't have any rights anyways? Codifying the right to kill babies in the womb has now created a situation where we've codified the right to sell babies. And little's being done to stop this. And apparently now you can be a conservative organization or talking head and you can support this. And it's wicked and it's evil and it's perverted. Children have a right to life first and foremost. They also have a right to their mother and father. And it's the gay marriage decision that destroyed a child's right to their mother and father. That was their whole argument, equals. Remember the equal sign on bumper bumper sticker? They're They were saying two penises equals the same as a heterosexual marriage. That was their whole argument that that these things are the same. The marriage is fundamentally the same. But, marriage produces children. And children have a right to their parents. So, if gay marriage equals real marriage, then the gays have rights to children. But, I watched The Office, it doesn't work. This doesn't create babies. So, what do you have to do? You have to buy them. You have to buy babies. And accidental incest is as perverted of a conclusion of the sexual revolution as it was in ancient Rome. We are replaying all of the final days of both Rome and France before Napoleon. And if something doesn't change soon, Kyle, we'll be reaping the same consequences. >> Well, Seth, I I I can't help but think about the an interview I did with my pastor, Mark Hitchcock, who's very into eschatology, not like predicting the end times, but like, hey, it's going to happen on this date. But, he was just just talking openly about how when you when you think of Gog or Magog or of any any of the other stuff that's in um eschatological writings, that we don't have a clear representation of the two most dominant countries right now, the United States nor China. And so, if you look at China, the one-child policy, and you look at what they're doing and the financial instability that they have, you look at us and everything that you've elucidated so far in this interview, but also in the Last Stand film and the book, that this is kind of where we're at. That might There might be a reason why we're not listed as one of those end times countries because of how quickly we're we're coming to an end, seemingly, if history can repeat itself. Now, I know we're we're running out of time here, but I did want to hit the Islam thing before we go. That'll be the last question of the day. The thing about Islam, you talk about Islam in chapter 11 of the book, I remember having this realization cuz I've always talked about Islam. I really appreciated the the work of Nabeel Qureshi, you know, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus, and things like that, and just the things that I didn't know that it talked about in the Quran and how the least abrogated surahs were the bloodiest, the ones calling for the blood of the the non-believers all over the world. >> Right. >> But I spent so much time in the hey, we we got to fight the woke stuff, you know, we got to fight against the Democrats, we got to fight against Planned Parenthood, we got to do all that. And I'm still pro all that kind of stuff. But I feel like I took my eye off the ball a little bit when it came to Islam. And when we talk about the great dragon and we look at it through a Persian lens or the Iranian lens, what does the the 12th Imam or the Mahdi oddly look like? The descriptions of the Antichrist that we get from the Holy Bible. Sheesh. So it seems like all of history is coming down to a final battle and it's not necessarily a battle of ideas, but it's a it's a battle of those that are in Christ and those that are in Adam. And the main representative of those who are in Adam are Muslims. And so talk a little bit cuz certainly you talk about it in terms of the last stand. But again, I agree with you. I don't think Westerners, certainly we're seeing this happening all over Europe right now. They don't have any inkling of taqiyya, which is this ancient, you know, idea from Muslims, which is hey yeah, go into all these Christian areas, take take advantage of their politeness and their happiness and all that. >> But just stand ready for the day that once their back is turned, you will pull out your sword and stab them with it. Andrew Novak. And so that wasn't a Muslim, that was a Sikh, but it's that same kind of idea like take up residence in their country, don't assimilate, but pretend like you are and then eventually cut their heads off. And so the the West I think is completely fallen asleep at the wheel as it pertains to Islam. >> Yeah, no, totally. And so for me, Kyle, it's very hard to see what's happening across the West and America right now with radical Islam jihadists and not associate it with a canary in a coal mine. >> Yeah. >> It's that to me that those seem to be the early warning signs of civilizational replacement. If J.D. Unwin is correct that the codification of total sexual freedom that's not reversed gives you 90 to 100 years before you're done. You're done. Goodbye. Dodo bird extinct. And your civilization's replaced by another one with greater social energy then that to me would seem to be the threat of Islam. Now, this is not um this is not affirmation. It's diagnosis. Uh Islam is a evil, demonic, pedophilic religion whose founder was a pedophile with multiple wives who consummated a marriage with I think a 7-year-old or 9-year-old. Um and I I believe >> they were six, consummated when she was nine. >> Yeah, and I think it's an their eschatological vision is endless sex with virgins forever when you get to heaven. So, I So, this is I'm diagnosing not affirming. I understand what an evil demonic faith it is. But let's be honest, Kyle. Islam is offering a kind of a kind of masculine attractive strength to the lost boys of the West. >> It's true. >> That Protestant Evangelicalism is not. I'm sorry, but if Steven Furtick and David Platt and all of the staff of Christianity Today and the Gospel Coalition is supposed to represent Evangelicalism then Gen Z young men are not going to run to that. They're not. And watching the the number of young men and families who are converting to Islam across Europe, Kyle, it's shocking. I was just in Europe. My wife and I went to Europe for our 10th anniversary. We were in Paris and London to name a few. And the amount of hijabs is insane. They're absolutely changing the political structure and culture of Paris. Paris even more so than London. Um because they're outbreeding the Europeans. And there are so many young people converting to Islam. So, we have to be very clear about the position that we're in right now. Um we are committing civilizational suicide by slaughtering our babies in the womb and calling it health care. Um by creating the most porn-addicted generation in American history with a generation of selfish sensates that just want to satisfy their own urges. The most suicidal depressed generation in American history. Millennials and Gen Z. Um and we're importing the third world all across Europe and America with very different values. In terms of how they treat women. I'm sure you've been working your way through the rape gang report out of the UK. 250,000. 250,000. >> That we know about. >> Little European British white girls since the 40s or 50s. And a large a large number of those in the last 20 years. Raped and abused and beaten and trafficked. And 90% of the times it was by Muslim men. And we're importing these ideologies and worldviews into America and across the West. And we think that America can continue perpetually without belief. It cannot. And so, I'm no expert in Islam. Kyle, that's why I'll I'll have Bill Federer on or Andrew Sedra on or someone like that. But this should be the canary in the coal mine. This should be the when you look at Frisco, Texas right now, where I'm going to speak at a church there in July. When you look at Dearborn, Michigan, oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. It's It's becoming an Islamic culture. It's weird. And that will continue to happen until the church wakes up. And so the Last Stand film and book is is really, brother, just about the glorious heritage and history of Christian resistance against all the same evils that we're facing today. We have forgotten who we are. Um we've forgotten um our calling and our mandate from heaven um to go to war against the gates that separate light from darkness. You know, every great revival has been uh preceded by two things, Kyle. Um intense prayerfulness and secondly care and protection for the marginalized, the forgotten, the vulnerable, the weak, and the voiceless. Um it's almost as if we can actually give God a reason to show America mercy. In some providential way, in some sovereign way, he responds to the actions and prayers of his people. And so what we're doing at the White Rose Resistance, Kyle, with this book and film that we Now any church or Christian school can host a screening of for free um around the whole country at the last stand.film, the last stand.film. You can host a screening of this. Pick up the book, it goes way deeper, but you can do a free screening for your congregants, your parishioners, your your Christian students. We're trying to remember remind the church who she is. That the first 1,900 years of church history stands as an indictment against the last 100. Um you know, and even even secular atheists, brother, which is always funny, right? Um I have admitted for years that there is no um dignity and equality and sanctity of life without Christianity. Like this is like like when the atheists are saying like without Christianity our civilization screwed, like maybe we should listen. Like Luke Ferry, a modern atheist, he says, "According to Christianity, we were all brothers on the same level as creatures of God." And so he calls Christianity the first universal universalist ethos. He says it was Christianity that introduced the notion that men were equal in dignity, an unprecedented idea at the time, and one to which the entire world owes its democratic inheritance. Even Nietzsche, right, who who was an atheist that would make today's atheists look like [ __ ] cats, Nietzsche said, "Another Christian concept has passed even more deeply into the tissue of modernity. It's the concept of equality of souls before God." He says Nietzsche says, "Kyle, this concept furnishes the prototype of all theories of equal rights." And so it was always the church who was standing for the equality and dignity of children and babies. It was the early church who gave us the pro-life movement. It was pastors like Athanasius who who literally led his church outside of the infanticide walls and tore them down with his bare hands, like Gideon tearing down the high places. And then a year later, emperors Valentinian and Theodosius, hearing of this bold act of a pastor tearing down the infanticide locations, passed edicts for the first time in human history giving legal protections to infants and demanding that parents take care of their babies. For the first time in history, babies and infants were giving legal protection because the church and pastors were engaged in tearing down all the structures that normalized and celebrated the murder of babies. And 8 years later, Rome embraced the teaching of Christ. I mean, I don't know, could it be that it was actually churches and pastors who weren't just preaching pro-life sermons, but they were showing their church what it looked like to actually stand for the unborn that led to the Rome etching the sanctity of life into the very fabric of Western civilization. I think so. And so, this is our legacy and heritage and until we remember the heroes of the past and of the faith who faced drag queen story hour. They faced infanticide. They faced abortion. They faced the sexualization of kids. They faced [ __ ] madness. They faced the state thinking they're a better parent to your children than you are. The our heroes in the family of faith faced all of this, Kyle. And by and large, the first 1,900 years of church history is marked by their courage and their sacrifice and their commitment to stand for children, babies, and the family. Until we reclaim that, nothing's going to change. And if we don't reclaim that, we will watch not just the fall of Western civilization as we know it in the European Union in our lifetime. We will watch the collapse of the strongest child of the Reformation and the strongest adherent to the Western tradition today, America, within our lifetime. >> Well, it's just it's exactly what Eric Metaxas said in one of his latest books where he said, it's the people that are saving powder for tomorrow's battle, but tomorrow's battle will never come cuz of war will have ended and then we will have all this unspent powder and we just don't want to be those people. So, Seth, it's always great having you on the show, but that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> Uh no, thank you, man. People can go to the laststand.film to host a screening of The Last Stand or pick up the book and we always appreciate it when people buy the books from the White Rose Resistance store and not Amazon cuz then you're supporting a Christian pro-life ministry. Um and so, I'll be across the country this year in big churches hosting screenings of this, but it's the little faithful churches around the country who I think are going to turn things around. Um, who are preaching boldness and courage in the full council of God to small congregations that care more about truth. Those are our favorite congregations, and so we want to make this free for any church to screen. >> Awesome, guys. You can check all of that out in the show notes. Seth, we'll talk again soon. >> Thanks, brother. >> Thank you, everyone, for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undated.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook, and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. >> Void awaken. >> [music] >> Void awaken.