0:00
(upbeat music)
0:01
LinkedIn is great at connecting you
0:03
with the world's largest professional network,
0:06
but it can't connect you with motivation
0:08
on a Monday morning.
0:09
LinkedIn can help you get insights
0:10
from your professional community,
0:12
but it can't give you any insight
0:14
into why Dave's is still talking on mute.
0:16
And while it can't stop your boss
0:17
from bringing tuna for lunch,
0:19
LinkedIn can help bring your career to the next level.
0:22
LinkedIn is the network that works for you.
0:25
Visit LinkedIn.com to learn more.
0:30
(upbeat music)
0:32
- This is "Undaunted Life" a man's podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:53
Let's get into it.
0:54
All right guys, today we've got a special guest
0:55
on the podcast, his name is Sean McDowell.
0:57
He's a Christian apologist, author, speaker,
0:59
blogger and professor.
1:00
He is the author, co-author, or editor of over 20 books,
1:04
including one of the greatest books of all time evidence
1:07
that demands a verdict.
1:08
It is on the book list that is on our website.
1:10
So the next generation will know the fate of the apostles
1:12
and his newest book that we're gonna be talking about
1:14
a lot today, which is a rebels manifesto.
1:17
So Sean is also an associate professor
1:19
in Christian apologetics at Talbot School of Theology
1:22
at Biola University.
1:23
He got his PhD from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
1:26
and MAs in both theology and philosophy
1:28
from the Talbot School of Theology.
1:30
He's also the co-host of the Think Biblically podcast.
1:32
So I was very excited to talk to him
1:34
'cause obviously he's from the first family
1:36
of Christian apologetics 'cause his dad is Josh McDowell,
1:38
wrote more than a carpenter.
1:39
So we talk about that.
1:41
We talk about how he's different from his dad
1:43
and what apologetics was like back in the day
1:44
when his dad was really up and coming
1:46
and versus what he does now.
1:48
And so we really look at all those different things.
1:50
We look at the trends in Christian apologetics
1:52
and how it's different, how you can't communicate in 2022
1:55
in the same way that you could do in 1982
1:56
or something like that.
1:58
We do talk about evidence that demands a verdict
2:00
and how people read that book and how they should read
2:02
that book, you know, the reasons why they did that book
2:05
and kind of how they changed it over time.
2:06
And then we dig into a rebels manifesto, his new book.
2:09
We talk about what that's about.
2:10
But that is a book that is written basically for teenagers
2:13
and giving them a primer on all these really, really
2:15
difficult topics.
2:16
So it's gonna talk about homosexuality and climate change
2:18
and transgenderism and guns and racial tension
2:22
and all these other different things.
2:23
And so we dig into some of those different categories
2:26
and we dig into what most Christians talk about today
2:29
in terms of what it means to be loving.
2:31
He and I have a great interaction about the transgender thing
2:33
and, you know, whether or not you should use someone's chosen
2:36
made up pronouns, even if they don't align with reality
2:39
or even basic biology.
2:41
And I really enjoyed our interaction about that.
2:43
And then I pushed back on him on specifically
2:45
his chapter on race because I felt like he was holding back
2:47
in that chapter and there was a lot of ground
2:49
that he didn't cover.
2:50
So he's engaged quite a bit on that.
2:52
And I asked him at the beginning,
2:53
if we did a good job on the podcast,
2:55
if he would be willing to come back very, very soon
2:57
'cause I had a bunch of other topics I wanted to talk to him
2:59
about that I knew we wouldn't be able to get to.
3:01
And so you'll have to stick around
3:02
until the end of the interview
3:03
to see if we did enough, good enough job
3:05
to get him back on the show.
3:07
So guys, I really, really enjoyed my time with Sean McDowell.
3:09
So without further ado, let's get into it.
3:12
Sean McDowell, welcome down to the Life of Man's podcast.
3:15
Kyle, thanks for having me.
3:17
I'm excited to have you on and I'm just gonna start out
3:19
with something unique here, okay?
3:21
I've never actually done this before in an interview,
3:23
but I'm going to put you on the spot
3:24
from the very, very beginning, okay?
3:26
So as I was preparing for this interview,
3:29
it became abundantly clear to me that almost immediately
3:32
that there would be too many things
3:34
that I would wanna talk to you about,
3:36
but that we weren't gonna have enough time
3:37
to sufficiently get into all of them.
3:39
So to put you on the spot from the jump,
3:41
assuming that our time together goes well today,
3:44
can we have you back on here soon
3:46
to dig into even more stuff?
3:48
I'm gonna be selfish from the jump here.
3:49
Can we dedicate to that?
3:51
- You know what?
3:52
I'm gonna hold out and say, you bring your A-game,
3:56
do a good job, and then I'll come back.
3:58
I'm not gonna make it too easy on you.
4:00
I don't think your audience would want that.
4:02
So bring it, and if you knock it out of the park, for sure.
4:06
- Guys, that's what it's called
4:07
when you throw down the gauntlet to somebody
4:09
and then they pick that up,
4:10
they smack you in the face with your own glove,
4:13
and then move from there.
4:13
So here we go, A-game is coming out.
4:15
So let's start as easy as we could possibly start.
4:19
It seems like Christian apologetics and writing
4:21
and speaking is just the McDowall family business, okay?
4:25
So you're the, now who's been in Christian ministry
4:29
for well over half a century at this point.
4:31
And he's author of one of the most important works
4:34
in all of Christian apologetics history,
4:36
in my opinion, at least.
4:37
And that's more than a carpenter.
4:38
And so just talk to me about that.
4:41
Like, you've been asked a question before.
4:43
Why did you get into this?
4:44
Was it because you wanted to be like Daddy-O?
4:46
Do you feel the pressure that he's been doing this
4:48
for so much longer?
4:49
And you know, you kind of have a different style.
4:51
Take me through it.
4:52
- Yeah, one of the things I appreciate about my dad
4:55
is he never once said that I could remember
4:57
something like, "Son, you ought to write a book.
5:00
"Hey, son, you could speak like I do.
5:03
"Hey, son, we need more apologists.
5:05
"Hey, you're a McDowall, carry the mantle forward."
5:09
- Yeah. - Never once.
5:10
The narrative as I remember it was,
5:13
"Hey, son, God's gifted you in different ways.
5:15
"Just use it for the kingdom, whatever that looks like."
5:18
And I think my dad understood
5:20
the kind of work that he and I do.
5:23
There's a lot of pressures
5:24
and there's also a lot of temptations that can come with it.
5:28
And if you're not in it for the right reason,
5:30
you're gonna hurt yourself
5:31
and you're gonna hurt others a lot more along the way.
5:34
So it was actually the opposite.
5:36
I actually resisted doing it 'cause I thought,
5:39
boy, if your dad's like the Michael Jordan, you know,
5:43
of a certain realm,
5:45
do you really wanna go in and face incessant comparisons?
5:50
- Yeah. - That gave me some pause.
5:53
But I think the reason I got into it is I did see
5:56
my parents live a life of meaning, of significance.
5:59
My dad is the same on the stage as off.
6:02
What you see is what you get.
6:04
I grew up hearing stories that people impacted
6:06
by more than a carpenter,
6:07
evidence and demands verdict, his speaking,
6:10
and just the sense of a higher calling.
6:14
And so when I worked through some of my own questions
6:16
and doubts and started to have my own passion
6:19
for the next generation,
6:20
I started to think, you know what,
6:21
this makes sense to do this.
6:24
And then when I started it slowly,
6:27
I think what happened is people would invite me back.
6:29
I'm like, oh, they're not just inviting me once
6:31
'cause I'm a McDowell, that helps.
6:33
Then I got people inviting me, not even knowing my dad.
6:35
I was like, you know what, maybe,
6:37
maybe I can make a real contribution here
6:39
and to make a long story short,
6:41
just became a passion of my own.
6:44
- So Sean, you kind of alluded to this a second ago.
6:47
Give us an idea of how your focus
6:50
and your work differs from what your dad did
6:53
or what he's still doing.
6:54
And then I guess what you could give us
6:57
is provide us with a little bit of a longitudinal idea
7:02
or study of how apologetics has changed
7:05
from when, you know, your father was in it
7:07
in the early days to kind of where it is now.
7:10
- Those are two great questions.
7:12
I love these.
7:13
Let me start with how different from my dad.
7:14
My dad is an evangelist first.
7:17
That's his heart, that's his wiring.
7:19
Now I think a lot of that comes from the fact
7:20
that he grew up in a broken home.
7:23
He was told that he was an accident, not wanted as a kid.
7:27
My grandfather, his dad was an alcoholic growing up.
7:31
My dad's older sister took her own life
7:33
and my dad was sexually abused severely
7:36
for seven years by somebody on their farm
7:39
until my dad was old enough to slam the man
7:41
against the wall and say, if you touch me again,
7:43
I'll kill you and he meant it.
7:45
And that was in the 40s.
7:47
So nobody believed when he talked about it then
7:50
'cause those things didn't happen.
7:52
So his come to Jesus moment was radical
7:56
and life changing and revolutionary.
7:59
So his whole life is about evangelism.
8:03
Growing up in the church, my story is more of one.
8:05
I went through a pretty significant season of doubt
8:08
and questioning, even in telling my dad,
8:09
I'm not sure that I really am convinced
8:12
that this Christian stuff is true
8:13
and him encouraging me and loving me along the way,
8:16
my experience is just different.
8:19
But I also think I'm wired differently.
8:20
I'm not first and foremost an evangelist.
8:23
Although I do evangelism and I care about it,
8:26
I'm first and foremost a teacher.
8:28
Hence I've taught high school for years.
8:30
I'm a professor.
8:31
So I'm in a little bit of the academic world.
8:35
I've written an academic book, some journal articles.
8:38
I go to some of the conferences.
8:40
And then I do popular level things.
8:43
So I got a PhD and my dad didn't need to get a PhD
8:46
in his world.
8:47
That's probably the big difference.
8:49
I think the other difference,
8:50
and this maybe gets your second question is,
8:53
my dad is just wired for the way apologetics was done
8:58
in probably 60, 70s and 80s, the free speech platform.
9:03
My dad doesn't lack chutzpah for a better word.
9:06
He's confident, he's always told me he's like,
9:09
son, I'm gonna attack hell with a squirt gun.
9:11
Let's go.
9:13
So when you go back, he cut his teeth in Latin America,
9:16
debating Marxists.
9:19
I mean, radical taking over Marxist rallies,
9:22
going to Berkeley on the free speech platform.
9:24
And you grab a mic and you have to shout things.
9:27
You show confidence.
9:28
If you show weakness, you're throwing off the stage.
9:31
That's the way when people are protesting the war,
9:34
he's out there preaching Jesus.
9:36
That's a very different time.
9:39
Now, in a sense, everybody's shouting,
9:42
everybody's angry, everybody's offended.
9:45
I actually think a more powerful apologetic today
9:48
is one that's relational, one that is gracious,
9:52
one that builds bridges and listens
9:55
and does the opposite of cancel culture.
9:58
I'm wired a little bit more for that kind of engagement.
10:04
And so that's some of the differences,
10:06
as far as the way apologetics has changed.
10:08
I mean, when my dad's start,
10:09
there was basically C.S. Lewis and Francis Schaeffer
10:14
and nobody doing it on a popular level.
10:16
I mean, nobody Kyle.
10:18
- When C.S. Lewis wasn't even as popular in his time
10:21
as he is right now, he gets more and more popular
10:24
every year that goes by.
10:26
- I think that's right.
10:27
He died in what, early 60s, I think 63, maybe if I remember.
10:32
But nobody was doing it.
10:34
There was no Frank Turic, there was no Greg Cocoa,
10:37
there's no JP Moreland, no William Lane Craig,
10:39
Geisler was coming on the scene.
10:41
So he really was a trailblazer when he started.
10:44
And he found a way to take academic stuff
10:47
and just popularize it
10:49
and would always share his story as a part of it
10:51
on college campuses.
10:53
And would get massive audience of six, eight, 10, 12,000 out
10:58
for these huge events.
11:01
And when he started, really the question was,
11:03
is Christianity true?
11:05
I think the question has shifted.
11:07
Now there's a ton of people doing apologetics.
11:10
You have TikTok apologists, you have Twitter apologists,
11:13
you have blogs, you have YouTube channels,
11:14
you have speakers, you have professors,
11:16
you have like people doing it in their church.
11:19
But the question is shifted really from is Christianity true
11:23
to is Christianity good?
11:25
And a lot of people think because of hypocrisy,
11:28
church abuse, the narrative about sexuality,
11:32
that even if it were true,
11:34
I don't wanna believe it 'cause it's harmful and it's bad.
11:37
That's how I think some of the apologetic questions
11:39
have shifted.
11:40
- I would say I certainly agree with that.
11:43
And that opens up a whole can of worms and stuff
11:45
that I wasn't even planning on asking you.
11:46
So we'll see how we do time wise today.
11:48
But yeah, I'm reminded of another apologist
11:50
that you didn't mention, which is John Linux.
11:52
And he's the type of guy that he was at Oxford
11:56
when C.S. Lewis was wrapping up his public career.
11:59
He got to sit down in lectures at Oxford with C.S. Lewis.
12:04
And here he is in 2022.
12:05
And he's still, he's like working on three books right now.
12:08
And it's just me and all the other ones.
12:09
And he's a guy that we had on the show a few months back.
12:11
And I was like, oh, I was literally sitting there,
12:14
like talking to him, like, I feel like my intellect
12:16
couldn't lightly toast a piece of bread.
12:18
And here's this guy, just this absolute lion of intellect
12:22
in of just intellectualism.
12:24
And I'm just like, gosh, I'm just,
12:25
I'm here for it, but I don't know if I can really make it happen,
12:28
which leads me to the book that you mentioned earlier,
12:31
which is one of the most important books
12:34
that I think exists in terms of Christendom.
12:36
No, I don't just mean apologetics.
12:38
And that's evidence that demands a verdict.
12:40
So we have a book list on our website,
12:42
the 100 books every modern Christian man should read list.
12:45
That book is featured in that list.
12:47
And you know, that list has literature,
12:48
it has apologetics, that's theology, money, parenting,
12:51
it has all these different categories.
12:53
But that is a book that I'm glad I read it
12:56
the way that I read it,
12:57
even though I think I read it incorrectly.
12:59
Because I read that book as if it were a book
13:03
that you start in page one and you just work your way through.
13:06
And about 100 pages in it, I'm like, oh, no.
13:09
This is a reference book.
13:11
This isn't like a read from beginning to end book.
13:13
Someone should have told me,
13:15
this is why I can't be trusted to do things on my own.
13:17
But if you have a question about a random topic,
13:21
about creation or about the resurrection
13:25
or about the first century church or something like that,
13:28
you just go to the table of contents of that book
13:30
and then you start digging.
13:32
And the level of footnotes is astonishing.
13:34
It's like a Thomas soul book.
13:35
I mean, it's just absolutely incredible.
13:38
And so talk to me a little bit about that book
13:40
because that is a book that you worked on with your father.
13:42
And I mean, it's a tone, it is dense.
13:46
It's like, man, it's just one of those books
13:48
that if you're a Christian,
13:49
that's not only a bookshelf, you're messing up.
13:51
- So the story behind this book is really interesting.
13:54
My dad, his journey to faith,
13:56
I talked about his broken background
13:57
as he was challenged by some Christians
13:59
to consider the claims of Christ.
14:01
And really what drew them is that this group
14:03
of Christians had peace, they had love,
14:06
their lives were different.
14:07
He wanted to know and they mentioned this guy, Jesus.
14:10
He's like, give me a break.
14:11
I'm gonna prove that the Bible's false.
14:13
Jesus was not God, didn't rise from the grave.
14:16
Well, at this time there was no internet.
14:18
There were no apologetic books
14:20
you could really get on this, very few.
14:23
So he had enough money, he had saved up.
14:24
He's always been an entrepreneur,
14:26
even though it is probably, I don't know,
14:28
about 20, 20, when years old, maybe.
14:30
From a painting business, he travels internationally,
14:33
go to these museums to go to all these sites
14:38
to find some of the original evidence
14:40
to examine manuscripts.
14:42
Ends up concluding that Christianity is actually true.
14:46
Well, a few years later when he's worked
14:48
for Campsker Save for Christ, he decides,
14:50
you know what, I'm gonna take some of my notes,
14:53
put them together, staplum together,
14:54
I don't know, maybe eight or 10 pages,
14:56
and just sell them at an event.
14:58
And he told me he goes,
14:59
Sunday sold like wildfire.
15:03
He goes, then I knew I was on to something.
15:06
And so he decides to write a book
15:09
and the crazy thing, Kyle,
15:10
is no publisher wants the book.
15:13
They're like, it's not gonna sell
15:15
if it's a reference book, it's facts, it's arguments.
15:19
You know, now I think it's well over four million copies.
15:23
I mean, it could have made some publishers rich
15:25
just in having that book.
15:27
So got a publisher, wrote it in '70,
15:32
I gotta think about this, '72,
15:33
more of the carpenter was '77,
15:35
updated '80s, updated in the '90s.
15:38
And then 2017, he asked me to head up
15:41
and updated the book.
15:42
And so we had about a dozen leading scholars
15:44
in the world, three dozen grad students
15:47
from our apologetics program at Biola,
15:49
and spent about two years updating this book.
15:53
And the cool thing to me is it won an award
15:55
in its category for Book of the Year,
15:57
which for me, it only mattered as a way
15:59
of just honoring my dad
16:01
and this powerful resource he put together for the kingdom.
16:05
But you're right, it's not meant to be read through,
16:07
but if I had a dollar every time somebody told me
16:09
what you told me and said they just did,
16:11
I might be rich.
16:13
But the thing was is like, even if you read it that way,
16:15
it's not like you won't get value out of it,
16:17
but there are times there are books
16:19
that they're just not meant to be read that way
16:21
because I'm a narrative sponge.
16:24
So I can read a 500 page book
16:26
and then I can tell you in three minutes or less
16:29
the high points of this book
16:30
and why it's gonna be important for you in your life,
16:32
I can't do that with that book necessarily.
16:34
Like I gotta go into a different area
16:36
to explain why it's so important.
16:38
So that's kind of the seminal work for me,
16:41
for you and your dad combined,
16:43
because like, you know, I'll answer for you,
16:45
but if we had to delete the rest of y'all's catalogs
16:48
of everything that you've ever written
16:50
and that was the one thing that survived,
16:52
humanity would be better for it.
16:53
So there's your compliment.
16:54
No, I'm not just buttering you up
16:56
so that you'll come back on the show here soon
16:58
because that's what I want, okay?
16:59
I'm still keeping my A-game face on right now.
17:02
But we do need to talk about your new book
17:04
or Tindale, your publisher is gonna be really, really mad at me.
17:07
It's called A Rebel's Manifesto.
17:09
And so I just finished reading this.
17:11
A subtitle is Choosing Truth, Real Justice,
17:13
and Love Amid the Noise of Today's World.
17:17
And so I want you to give us an idea
17:19
about where the idea for this book came from
17:21
and what it's about and all that kind of normal generic stuff.
17:23
But I wanna read a quote from early in the book
17:26
'cause I think it helps set up what the book's about
17:29
and then we'll start digging into some individual things
17:31
from the book, but here's the quote.
17:33
One reason it is so challenging to love our neighbors today
17:36
is that our culture operates
17:37
under a different definition of love than held by Jesus.
17:40
Today, love means affirming someone's behavior and beliefs.
17:44
It means accepting someone for who they believe themselves to be.
17:47
And it means agreeing with however someone feels about themselves.
17:51
If not, you're hateful.
17:53
So again, you talk about love right there and that quote,
17:55
"Love is in the subtitle of the book."
17:57
So A Rebel's Manifesto, why'd you write it?
17:59
What's it for?
18:00
What do you want readers to get out of it?
18:02
- Yeah, so people who know me in my ministry
18:04
would be like, "A Rebel's Manifesto."
18:06
I'm not sure Sean strikes me as the rebel.
18:10
Why that title?
18:12
And some have come from the fact that I was thinking about recently
18:15
how rock music represents rebellion.
18:19
So go back to the '50s,
18:20
rebellion against certain racial injustice
18:23
in the '60s against the system,
18:26
in the '70s against war, et cetera.
18:30
But when we get into the early 2000s with social media,
18:32
rock music has lost in terms of the dress,
18:36
in terms of the sound, in terms of the lyrics.
18:40
It's lost its contrarian voice
18:43
because everybody has a medium or a TikTok count
18:47
to shout to the world and make their point.
18:50
So given who our culture's gone,
18:52
I thought, what does it mean to be a rebel today?
18:55
What does it mean to be contrarian?
18:57
It actually means to be the opposite.
18:59
Rather than shouting somebody down,
19:01
rather than canceling somebody,
19:04
it actually means building bridges,
19:06
trying to love somebody in many of the ways
19:10
that Jesus did when he was physically here on earth.
19:15
So I'm trying to get people to realize
19:16
there's a different way of being a rebel today.
19:19
And so the book, really what it does,
19:21
is I got the top 25 most controversial issues
19:26
I could come across with the help of students,
19:29
Christian school teachers, youth pastors,
19:31
whether it's immigration, gun control, transgender,
19:36
climate change, and just said,
19:38
what Christian truths apply to this?
19:42
How do we think about it?
19:43
And then how do we engage our neighbors
19:46
in positive conversations about these issues that matter?
19:51
Now, some issues we die on
19:53
'cause they're tied to the heart of the gospel.
19:55
Other issues we don't have to die on,
19:57
we can show charity and kindness to others,
20:01
and learn from it and build relationships.
20:03
So basically it's about written for students
20:05
to try to say, how do you stand boldly for truth
20:09
in a loving fashion as a rebel,
20:13
which means to follow Jesus today?
20:16
That's kind of the heart of it.
20:17
- And so it certainly reads that way.
20:19
So for a lot of guys,
20:20
especially guys that are fans of this podcast,
20:22
it might seem rather elementary,
20:23
but you have to remember
20:24
the target audience is going to be teenagers
20:26
that haven't spent decades
20:28
thinking through some of these issues
20:29
or really dug into the philosophies of the world.
20:31
These are those types of things.
20:32
And a lot of ways, this is an introduction
20:35
to those subject matters.
20:36
And then it will tee them up
20:38
to go and check them out in other areas.
20:39
So the guys listening to this,
20:41
if you have teenagers right now
20:42
and you're struggling with some of the conversations
20:44
around those really important incendiary
20:47
and dramatic topics,
20:49
this is a great primer for some of those conversations.
20:51
So it's in the show notes you guys can obviously check it out,
20:54
but let's dig into some of the stuff from the book.
20:55
There was another short quote from early in the book
20:57
that I think is important
20:58
'cause it kind of describes the moment we're in.
21:01
Here is a very important point to remember.
21:03
Disagreement about truth does not erase
21:06
the existence of truth.
21:08
So I don't even know if you use the word in that section
21:11
'cause I can't remember,
21:12
but you're talking about postmodernism there
21:14
because postmodernism has eroded the foundations of truth
21:17
and there's no such thing as capital T truth anymore.
21:20
There's only lowercase T truth
21:22
and it's usually preceded by the word my.
21:25
This is my truth and what people mean when they say that
21:27
are these are my facts.
21:29
These are not things like, you know what I mean?
21:31
Because if you can destroy capital T truth,
21:34
then you are in control of quote unquote facts.
21:37
So talk to me about kind of the world that we live in now,
21:41
which is another reason why apologetics has changed
21:43
because in the 60s, 70s and 80s,
21:44
it's like, is this true or is this not?
21:46
But now we don't have a binary category of true
21:49
or not true, it's true or not true for you
21:53
or for him or for me.
21:54
It's just a crazy space and time that we live in.
21:57
- Yeah, I saw a study recently that said
21:59
we used to have different interpretations.
22:03
Now we have different facts.
22:06
And at least that's how we see the world.
22:09
We used to be able to agree on certain facts,
22:11
but then determine how we interpret those facts.
22:14
Now, literally it's like people live in different universes.
22:17
So what happens is we demonize people
22:20
who see the world differently than we do,
22:23
breaks down communication, doesn't help
22:25
and actually gets us further away from knowing the truth.
22:29
A phrase that we hear a lot that I think captures
22:31
this postmodern idea that you're getting at
22:33
is you'll hear people say, live your truth.
22:37
- Yeah.
22:38
- I remember during the Kavanaugh hearings
22:40
when Ford was raising some charges,
22:42
Senator Booker kept saying to Ford, share your truth,
22:47
share your truth and I'm sitting here going,
22:49
wasn't this guy trained at Stanford?
22:52
She doesn't have her own truth.
22:54
She has her own experiences.
22:56
She has her own beliefs,
22:58
but there is a truth about whether those charges
23:02
happened or not and that's what we need to figure out.
23:06
So I'll say to people, you can have your own beliefs,
23:10
but you cannot have your own truth.
23:14
You can have your own belief.
23:15
You can live your beliefs.
23:17
In fact, we all live our beliefs,
23:19
but you can't have your own truth
23:21
because truth is when a belief matches up with reality.
23:26
That's what people miss.
23:28
Now why do we hear people saying, like you said,
23:31
Kyle, that may be true for you, but not true for me.
23:33
That's my truth, not your truth, live your truth.
23:36
The locus of truth has shifted.
23:40
So back to when my dad started ministry 60s and 70s,
23:44
people would say, give me facts, give me proof,
23:46
give me evidence.
23:48
The assumption was there's a truth in the world.
23:52
We discover that truth.
23:54
Maybe it's Marxism, maybe it's Christianity,
23:57
maybe it's Islam, maybe it's atheism.
24:00
And then we conform our lives to that external truth.
24:05
Now it shifted inside that if I simply believe something,
24:10
then it's true for me.
24:13
It's not about the facts in the world.
24:16
It's about my feelings, my choice, my autonomy.
24:20
And if you don't affirm it, you're the bigot,
24:23
you're hateful, you're intolerant.
24:25
So one way that my dad framed it for me again,
24:29
that was helpful is he said,
24:30
when you go back to like the 70s,
24:32
there was the sense that the problem is out in the world
24:36
and we could all identify it in the world and fix it.
24:40
Now the problem has shifted internally to my feelings,
24:44
to my mental health, to my autonomy.
24:47
It's gone from external to internal,
24:50
from objective to subjective.
24:54
- And it's almost like truth is out to get them, right?
24:56
So these people that get offended by words
24:59
and by other things, because the reality is truth
25:01
is undergirded or the scaffolding beneath truth
25:05
is something called facts.
25:06
And so I use this example all the time
25:07
because it's just common for people,
25:09
but Abraham Lincoln was the 16th president of the United States.
25:12
That is true and undergirded by a bunch of facts.
25:15
Abraham Lincoln existed, there was an election,
25:18
it came after the 15th president
25:20
and before the 17th president,
25:21
he won that election.
25:22
These are all facts that undergird a truth.
25:25
And the thing about it is now,
25:26
is I feel like people, especially conservatives
25:29
and Christians that are just really, really nice
25:30
and want to be known for how nice they are
25:31
and they want to be known for what they're for
25:33
and not what they're against.
25:34
And all these nonsense slogans,
25:35
it's like it's okay to point out
25:37
that we can have different lenses
25:39
through which we view things,
25:40
but we can't have different facts.
25:42
Because again, you grow up in an Eastern Orthodox context
25:46
versus growing up in a Catholic, Roman Catholic context.
25:50
Obviously your lenses are different,
25:52
but it doesn't change the truth or falsehood
25:53
of the resurrection as an example.
25:55
And so I think that's kind of where we've gotten to
25:57
is we get into this struggle
25:59
and there are people that are uncomfortable
26:02
with relying on truth
26:04
because they're so concerned about people's feelings
26:06
and it's just like, man, at a certain point
26:08
we have to get to bedrock, you know?
26:11
I think that's really well said, it's interesting.
26:12
I was just doing a book review with my co-host
26:16
for this podcast that I do about a transgender male
26:21
and the experience with scripture.
26:24
And at the beginning, what this author says was,
26:28
you might be thinking that queer and trans writers
26:33
are making God in their own image.
26:37
In other words, you might say we're beginning
26:39
with this narrative and forcing scripture into our narrative.
26:44
And then this writer said, but the reality is
26:48
the obvious problem is we all start from somewhere
26:52
and have certain biases.
26:54
And I thought, oh my goodness, this is such a straw man.
26:58
There's, yes, we all have biases,
27:01
but we can work to minimize those biases.
27:04
We can read different perspectives.
27:07
We can talk to people who see the world differently
27:10
just because we have biases and are standing somewhere
27:14
doesn't mean we don't have access to truth.
27:18
So the mere fact that I have a certain race
27:20
and a certain socioeconomic status
27:22
doesn't determine that I can't know truth
27:25
and therefore it's all relative, rather what it should do
27:29
is make me say, okay, I wonder if I see the certain world
27:32
'cause I have a skin color.
27:33
Okay, that's an important question.
27:35
I wonder if because I'm a male,
27:36
like those are fair questions
27:38
because I'm a Christian biases,
27:40
but they don't determine truth and blind me
27:44
if we work hard to know what is true.
27:48
Those are the two extremes that I've seen
27:50
and I think it's an unhelpful way to move forward.
27:53
And we as Christians gotta be willing
27:55
to listen to different perspectives.
27:57
Read books, work hard to minimize so we can know truth
28:01
and then frankly, make sure we're not doing the same thing.
28:04
Make sure we're not interpreting the data
28:06
in a way that's comfortable to us
28:09
and rejecting voices that disagree with us.
28:11
We've gotta make sure we're willing to follow truth
28:14
even if it's inconvenient.
28:16
Adobe Firefly is the all-in-one creative studio
28:19
with AI-powered image and video editing
28:21
for today's creative process.
28:23
Built for creators of every kind,
28:26
Firefly helps you generate, edit and experiment fast
28:30
because the asks aren't getting smaller,
28:32
the budgets aren't getting bigger
28:34
and the timelines, oh yeah, still tight.
28:37
With all the best creative AI models in one place,
28:40
Firefly brings your ideas to life.
28:43
Unlock a better way to make with Adobe Firefly.
28:46
- I think to a degree as well
28:48
that Christians have potentially acquiesced too much
28:52
to worldviews that don't comport at all with the scripture.
28:56
And so you see a lot of people now using language like,
28:59
oh, you know what, we're just gonna use critical race theory
29:01
as a lens to help us understand the plight
29:05
of these apparently homogenous groups of people
29:07
that have a certain level of melanin.
29:10
And it's just like, wait a minute,
29:11
like why would you use a worldview
29:14
that comes from critical theory,
29:15
that comes from the Frankfurt School,
29:17
which comes from Karl Marx,
29:19
which comes from the Butthole of Satan,
29:20
like why in the world would you like go to that
29:23
and be like, I wanna use this as a lens through which
29:25
we can help spread the gospel.
29:27
It's like, this is oil and water.
29:28
These things cannot mix,
29:30
but I do wanna just stay on the transgender topics
29:32
since you brought it up because, you know,
29:33
I saw this recently talked about it on my show.
29:35
There was a speaker at Trinity College at Cambridge
29:37
that talked about how Jesus was transgender
29:40
and had a transgender body.
29:41
And he used all these paintings and artwork
29:44
to kind of prove his point.
29:45
And then the dean came out and said, yeah, yeah,
29:47
that's plausible because that's where we get to now.
29:49
It's like, we don't wanna be mean.
29:51
We think that being nice to our neighbor is akin to,
29:54
we should just lie to our neighbor.
29:55
And so you cover the transgender topic in the book again,
29:58
it's brief and it's a primer.
30:00
The specific thing on the transgender topic
30:02
I wanna talk to you about, Sean,
30:04
is Christians that will acquiesce to pronoun requests
30:08
even when it violates truth.
30:10
So a guy that I respect a lot,
30:11
I've been on the show a couple of times,
30:13
Justin Briarley over in the UK,
30:14
whenever he's had a transgender person on his podcast,
30:17
knowing the biological sex of the person,
30:20
he will use the chosen pronouns of that person,
30:23
which does not align with truth and does not align
30:26
with, you know, their biological sex.
30:28
And when he came on my show,
30:29
I asked him about that as politely as I could and said,
30:31
hey man, truth is the ethic that we should hold
30:34
above everything else, not necessarily someone's feelings.
30:37
That doesn't mean you should be demonstrably, you know,
30:40
argumentative with somebody when you first get to know them.
30:43
But if you have a problem with truth,
30:44
like just use their name.
30:45
I don't care what you call yourself,
30:47
but I'm not going to lie.
30:48
I'm not gonna allow you to compel me to use speech
30:51
that I know to be untrue.
30:53
But talk to me about the myriad of Christians
30:55
that disagree with me that they're like,
30:56
yeah, pronouns are just pronouns, it doesn't really matter.
31:00
- So I'll tell you my position on this one.
31:03
I think there's generally two takes that Christians have.
31:06
One is the position you laid out, I think very carefully.
31:10
And well, that I'm not going to lie
31:13
and speak something that's not true.
31:16
So if I use a preferred pronoun,
31:18
I mean, I'm violating my conscience.
31:21
My answer would be don't violate your conscience.
31:25
You should not, if you feel that way, Kyle.
31:27
Now, by the way, some Christians can have seared consciences
31:31
if they haven't prayed about something,
31:33
haven't got guidance, haven't been reflective on it.
31:35
But in this case, I can tell you thought about this,
31:38
don't violate it.
31:40
I was talking to my co-host and he goes,
31:42
he goes, Sean, here's how I see it.
31:44
He goes, I'm willing to simply meet somebody
31:47
where they are at, relationally,
31:50
for the sake of speaking truth to them.
31:54
This is somebody who's been thoughtful,
31:57
doesn't feel coerced into it.
31:59
He says, my conscience says, if I'm not willing to do this,
32:03
this conversation is going to break down
32:05
and they're not even going to hear me.
32:07
So before this person can change who they are,
32:10
they've got to have Jesus to clean her up
32:12
or from the inside, that's his position.
32:15
And because this person is so thoughtful,
32:18
I'm not going to say to him, hey,
32:21
you should use that pronoun.
32:22
I wouldn't say to Justin, who's my friend
32:25
because he's a very thoughtful person.
32:28
I'm not going to tell him he's wrong on his conscience.
32:31
Now, somebody who's going to tell me I'm being soft,
32:32
I'm being mistaken, I can tell you for me,
32:36
I would have a hard time using a preferred pronoun
32:41
because I feel the way that you do,
32:44
I feel there's a certain coercion
32:46
sometimes that comes into this that says,
32:48
if you're going to respect me,
32:49
you have to use this language.
32:51
So respect is fully on that person's terms
32:54
without a sense from the worldview
32:56
and where I'm coming from.
32:58
I would have a hard time,
32:59
I don't mind avoiding pronouns,
33:02
I don't mind using a person's first name,
33:05
that stuff doesn't bother me.
33:07
But in my own conscience,
33:08
I just don't feel comfortable doing that.
33:11
The only exception might be in a personal relationship
33:14
with somebody that's not public,
33:17
then that would concern me less if we're able to talk it through
33:21
and find a certain level of common ground,
33:24
but that's where I'm at with that topic.
33:28
- I appreciate you going into that detail.
33:30
And this is what I would ask your co-hosts,
33:32
this is what I would ask Justin,
33:34
if I were sitting down with him
33:35
and we were having a discussion.
33:37
I would say, what if somebody has come over to your home
33:41
and they identify as a furry?
33:43
And so these are a category of people
33:46
that identify as animals.
33:47
So they identify as house cats or dogs or something like that.
33:50
And I would ask them, ask them,
33:53
would it be loving of you to invite someone over to dinner
33:56
and to put it on a bowl on the floor?
33:58
Because they identify as a furry,
33:59
is that a loving thing to that person?
34:01
After the meal, would you put them on a leash
34:03
and take them out to use the restroom in the yard?
34:06
Like where do we take this and where do we stop this?
34:09
Because you might be like, oh, that's ridiculous,
34:11
that's egregious.
34:12
It's categorically the same as somebody
34:14
who is confused about their gender
34:17
and you playing into that confusion
34:19
and mainlining it and mainstreaming it
34:21
and pretending like you're being nice and virtuous.
34:24
So obviously I'm a little bit more abrasive in my approach,
34:26
but that would be my question to him.
34:28
And I would just let it sit there in the ether
34:30
and be like, what are you gonna do with that person?
34:32
Because there are people that think they are those things,
34:34
they genuinely believe that.
34:35
There are people that think they're furniture.
34:38
And so if someone comes over to my house
34:39
and they identify as a chair, shall I sit on them?
34:42
Unless I be called a judgmental bigot?
34:46
You kinda see what I'm saying?
34:47
- I think that's totally fair.
34:48
Now I'm not gonna mention who it was,
34:50
but there's a well-known apologist you would recognize.
34:53
And I asked this, I said, hey, would you use
34:55
a preferred pronoun?
34:57
He said, Sean, I would call somebody a horse
35:00
if that's what it took to be in relationship
35:03
with that person to share Jesus with them.
35:06
Now, you might disagree and I doubt that apologist would say,
35:09
yeah, I'll put him out in the stall
35:12
and I'll feed him water under a trough.
35:13
Like we're all gonna draw the line somewhere.
35:17
The question is just where are we going to draw that line
35:21
is where the debate comes in.
35:23
So I think that's totally a fair question.
35:25
I think that's the right question.
35:28
But I think even a well-known apologist who you know
35:30
and respect, and that's not me, by the way,
35:33
who answered that would give that response.
35:36
- So I'll put it this way.
35:37
So I've said a lot of judgmental
35:39
and things about this particular pastor,
35:42
but Craig Rochelle of Life Church,
35:43
I attended his church for over 10 years.
35:45
I think his standard, I don't know
35:47
if he still holds to the standard.
35:48
But I remember him saying over and over and over
35:50
is that he and the church is gonna do anything short of sin
35:54
to bring people to the gospel, to bring them.
35:58
And so it's like, if you start your evangelical conversation
36:02
and relationship with somebody on a lie, on a falsehood,
36:06
I think it's not exactly fruit of the poisonous tree
36:09
to where, okay, we can't take anything else,
36:11
but I liken it to things like this.
36:14
When all the revelations came out about Robbie Zacharias
36:17
and the horrific sexual deviant that he was,
36:20
I wish he was still alive to be able to deal
36:22
with those consequences, unfortunately,
36:23
he died before all that happened.
36:25
But what he caused is not just pain and agony
36:29
and for all of his victims.
36:31
For all the people that came to a RZIM event
36:34
and were saved at an event,
36:36
they're now all of a sudden questioning their own salvation
36:39
because of the foundation that was laid out
36:42
by the man that gave them the so-called truth.
36:45
You could liken it to Christians pretending like God exists,
36:48
but lying to their kids about the Easter Bunny and Santa
36:51
and all these other things and expecting
36:53
whenever they come of age,
36:54
not believing those things anymore
36:55
that they'll still believe in this God
36:56
that they can't see either.
36:58
And so I think it creates a lot of entrails
37:01
that I think people are given short shrift
37:03
and not enough thoughts to,
37:05
but I think we belabor that point.
37:07
I wanna move on to some other things
37:09
that are gonna potentially get us.
37:10
- Can I make one point?
37:12
I don't know the context with which this pastor said that.
37:15
I'm not sure I would frame it the same
37:16
and say anything short of sin.
37:19
The way I would approach it is I wanna be as charitable
37:22
to the person as I can be without violating my conscience
37:27
and doing anything biblically wrong.
37:32
So what does that look like?
37:33
If someone says to me, "Hey Sean, you know,
37:36
can you use my preferred pronoun?"
37:38
I would say, you know, I sense this is something
37:41
really important to you.
37:43
Would you be willing to go to coffee with me and sit down
37:47
and share about your experience being transgender?
37:51
All I wanna do is listen and understand.
37:55
The Bible has a lot to say, Kyle,
37:57
about speaking after we've listening,
38:00
after we've listened first,
38:01
there's proverbs that talk about the importance
38:04
of understanding.
38:05
And I would sit down and say,
38:06
tell me when you first experienced
38:08
gender dysphoria or gender expectations.
38:11
Who did you first tell?
38:12
How do people respond?
38:13
How does this affect your faith?
38:14
Have you ever had doubts?
38:15
I would just listen to understand this person's story.
38:19
Then I would say, tell me why it's so important to you
38:22
that I use this preferred pronoun.
38:24
My only goal is to understand.
38:26
And at the end, I'm gonna say,
38:28
do you feel like I've taken the time
38:30
to understand where you're coming from?
38:32
Do you feel like I've been empathetic?
38:34
Yes.
38:35
Would you be willing to hear me out about my worldview,
38:39
where I'm coming from?
38:41
And why using preferred pronouns
38:44
is also very significant to me.
38:48
Now the person can say no, and then what have you done?
38:50
You've extended as much charity as you can.
38:54
And then you have a clear conscience before the Lord.
38:57
You've bent over backwards, so to speak,
39:00
to try to show kindness and love to this person.
39:03
And then you lay out, if you have the kind of concerns
39:05
that you and I have and say, you know what?
39:06
I think God has made us male and female.
39:11
And that our gender identity is to match up
39:14
with our bodily sex.
39:16
I don't think I truly am what I believe in my mind.
39:20
My body is a part of who I am.
39:23
So just like you want to be a person who's authentic
39:26
and live out who you believe you are,
39:28
I want to be an authentic follower of Jesus.
39:32
And Jesus tells me to speak the truth.
39:35
So are you asking me to be inauthentic to who I am?
39:40
That's a really interesting question
39:43
I've asked in different settings.
39:45
And then at the end, I just say,
39:47
given how difficult this is and the worlds we're coming from,
39:50
I'm committed to be in a relationship with you.
39:53
Is there a way we can find common ground to proceed?
39:56
And then you haven't done anything wrong
39:58
if that's your understanding like you and I have.
40:01
You've shown understanding, you've shown empathy,
40:04
you've shown kindness.
40:06
That's how I'd like Christians to proceed.
40:09
Now still, some people say you're big at, I hate full.
40:12
People are taking their own lives
40:13
because if you're non-affirming theology,
40:16
I can't control that response.
40:18
But I can control how I treat people.
40:21
That's how I would approach something like this.
40:24
- I'm really glad actually that you laid that out
40:26
in such a detailed fashion
40:28
because this is gonna come as a shock to you.
40:30
But I'm gonna get to the point, kind of a person.
40:32
It's like, so it was funny is immediately
40:35
when you pose that question, like if someone came up to you
40:37
and said, "Well, you use my preferred pronouns."
40:38
I'd be like, "No."
40:39
Like, that's just my default mechanism.
40:42
My default mechanism, yeah.
40:43
It's just like, you know,
40:45
people love to use the word nuance.
40:46
It's a word that dumb people use to sound smart.
40:48
And it's like, no, there's not a whole lot of nuance here.
40:50
The answer's no.
40:51
And so like, but I think that's a really good,
40:53
I guess you can say apologetic
40:55
for how you can have a true and lasting impact on somebody
40:58
all the while understanding that you are risking chips
41:01
that you may never get back
41:02
because you could spend a lot of time and energy
41:04
on this person and get back around to the same exact place.
41:07
But that's not the only potential outcome
41:10
and some of the other outcomes could be positive as well.
41:12
So let's move off the transgenderism topic
41:15
and get to a more low key topic
41:16
that nobody's really concerned about.
41:18
Let's talk about homosexuality.
41:20
So specifically, I wanna talk about the approval
41:23
of same-sex lifestyles and actions within the church.
41:26
Okay, so let's just start there
41:28
with, you know, kind of gay affirming churches
41:30
and things like that.
41:31
I wanna read a quote from the book
41:33
that part of it just kind of caught me a little bit off guard
41:36
but I'll read the whole thing so we have the full context.
41:39
Although Jesus did not mention homosexual behavior
41:42
explicitly in his teaching,
41:44
he condemned all sexual behavior outside
41:46
of marriage, the marriage relationship.
41:48
See, for example, Mark 7 21 through 22,
41:51
which would include both heterosexual
41:52
and homosexual behavior.
41:54
To put it simply, Jesus believed that same-sex sexual behavior
41:57
violated God's design for sexuality.
42:00
So, you know, as it ends there,
42:02
that ends with a thump and not a thud.
42:04
Like I'm good with that.
42:05
The thing that caught me off guard was the very beginning.
42:08
Although Jesus did not mention homosexual behavior
42:11
explicitly in his teaching.
42:12
And what that automatically reminded me of
42:15
is Carl Lynch, the now-ashamed pastor,
42:19
formerly of Hillsong, New York City,
42:21
when he went on the view and he was asked specifically
42:24
about homosexuality, it may have been with Katie Curry.
42:26
It was one of those interviews he did
42:27
when he was everybody's favorite good-looking pastor
42:29
there for five seconds.
42:31
But he was asked specifically about that.
42:32
And he said, you know what?
42:35
Jesus never talked about homosexuality
42:37
like from, you know, during his ministry.
42:39
So I'm not gonna talk about it from the pulpit.
42:41
And it was like, wait a minute,
42:44
the word that was used to record in the Greek,
42:46
what Jesus was talking about was poor Nia,
42:48
which was talking about any sex outside of a man
42:53
and a woman underneath, you know,
42:56
the connection and covenant of marriage before God.
42:59
So that included masturbation and sex outside of wedlock
43:02
and multiple partners had a sex or homosexuality and all that.
43:06
So I feel like just by adding that little,
43:09
like clarifying statement at the beginning
43:11
about how he never explicitly talked about it,
43:13
I don't wanna say it's inaccurate
43:15
because here I am talking to a guy that's a professor at Biola
43:17
about something, you know, that goes back to the Greek language.
43:19
You know, I'm getting out beyond myself a little bit.
43:22
But I think that's a little dangerous framing it that way
43:25
because I know what you mean.
43:26
But I think some people are gonna focus in
43:28
on the first part and forget the rest of the paragraph.
43:32
- Well, if somebody's going to take that line out of context
43:35
and ignore the rest of what I said, I can't control that.
43:38
People do that with the Bible.
43:39
I think what I said is true.
43:41
The Bible doesn't explicitly talk about Jesus
43:46
didn't explicitly, at least you can say
43:48
we don't have record of Jesus explicitly addressing
43:51
same-sex sexual behavior.
43:54
That's a fact.
43:55
But then the next-- - But did he not do that?
43:57
Sorry to interrupt, but did he not do that?
43:59
'Cause he obviously he would have spoke it
44:01
in, you know, ancient Aramaic or whatever.
44:03
But when it was recorded as Pornea,
44:05
obviously the Greek language is--
44:06
- I get that. - It's easier--
44:07
- I get that before. - Yeah.
44:08
- That's the next point that I make.
44:11
'Cause I'm only making a distinction
44:13
between directly and indirectly.
44:16
Explicitly and implicitly.
44:19
Because something is stated indirectly or implicitly
44:23
doesn't mean Jesus did clearly condemn it.
44:26
And that's exactly what my point is.
44:28
So for Jesus doesn't have to say,
44:31
same-sex marriage is sinful and against God's design.
44:36
He wouldn't have spoken into that
44:38
because there was no debate about the morality
44:40
that within the Judeo-Christian tradition
44:43
until five minutes ago historically speaking.
44:46
But when Jesus affirms that marriage is one man,
44:50
one woman, one flesh, one lifetime in Matthew 19,
44:54
and he says Pornea is wrong,
44:57
he is clearly saying that any sexual behavior,
45:02
including same-sex sexual behavior is wrong.
45:06
So it's a nuance that I think is important
45:09
to be accurate to the text.
45:11
It doesn't undermine how clear Jesus is about sexuality.
45:15
Now if I was on the view,
45:17
here's how I would have responded to this.
45:19
I would have said, you know what,
45:21
we gotta realize that the question of homosexuality
45:24
is a very, very sensitive question.
45:27
And there's some people waiting right now,
45:28
no matter what I say, to condemn me.
45:31
- Yeah, right.
45:32
- So first off, we gotta realize
45:36
Jesus is the one who gave us the ethic
45:39
to love our neighbors, the Good Samaritan.
45:42
Jesus is the one who gave us the ethic
45:46
to love our enemies.
45:49
Jesus is the one who affirmed Genesis
45:51
and said we are all made in God's image and have value.
45:56
I am a follower of Jesus.
46:00
But Jesus also talked about what marriage is.
46:04
He also talked about sexually immoral behavior
46:08
that would include divorce,
46:10
it would include looking at pornography,
46:12
and it would include same-sex sexual behavior.
46:16
I'm a follower of Jesus on this.
46:18
I think he got it right.
46:20
Are you telling me on the view
46:22
that you know better than Jesus?
46:24
And I'd let it sit.
46:26
- And it would have been fun to see that happen.
46:29
Maybe we can finagle you onto that show
46:31
and then we can have a redo
46:32
because I feel like Carl Lynch crapped the bed on that one.
46:35
So well, I appreciate you going into that
46:37
because again, it's one of those topics.
46:38
It's not only important to people.
46:40
It's very, very personal to people and their experience.
46:43
And obviously if you've never had same-sex attraction,
46:45
you can't really understand like these Christians
46:48
that are very prominent that have basically said,
46:49
yeah, I'm gonna go to bed alone
46:51
for the rest of my life for the sake of Christ.
46:52
And that is literally going to be my cross to bear.
46:55
Like I don't have to do that, right?
46:56
Because I wasn't given that as a struggle.
46:58
But some people struggle with chemical dependency, right?
47:01
Some people struggle with anger and violence
47:03
like that we all gonna have our thing
47:04
that we have to try and overcome.
47:06
So at this point of the interview,
47:08
everyone might be like, all right,
47:09
you guys are agreeing too much.
47:10
And so as much as I agree with most everything you said
47:13
in the book, they're actually aware of them being honest.
47:15
There were a couple of low points in the book for me.
47:18
And it was specifically your chapters
47:20
about race in America and guns.
47:22
And so to be charitable and also in interest of time,
47:25
I'm gonna let you pick which one we're gonna talk about.
47:27
So you either get to talk about race in America or guns
47:30
and we'll dig in.
47:31
So which one do you wanna talk about?
47:33
- Let's do race since you mentioned it first.
47:35
- So one thing as I'm reading through your book
47:37
is I had to constantly remind myself
47:39
that this book was not really meant
47:41
for a guy like me specifically.
47:43
Because I spent hours and hours and hours a week
47:46
digging into these topics, thinking about it,
47:49
talking about it on the show.
47:50
And so like, I'm beyond a lot of the arguments
47:53
just because I've been marinated in it for so long.
47:55
But even knowing the target audience,
47:57
I thought that your chapter on race was a little bit weak tea.
48:01
It was almost like you were holding back a little bit.
48:04
So I wanted to maybe dig in a little bit deeper
48:06
into some points that maybe I missed
48:08
or I'm maybe making something out to not be what it was.
48:12
So it's chapter 14 called racial tension.
48:15
You seem to speak out of both sides of your mouth
48:17
in the chapter in my opinion.
48:18
You kinda hint that systemic racism is real,
48:21
but you stop short of actually saying that
48:24
and actually providing like very specific examples.
48:27
You make the claim that there are people
48:29
that think that racism doesn't exist at all.
48:31
And I gotta be honest, I don't know of a single human
48:33
in existence that actually believes
48:34
that racism doesn't exist.
48:36
Yeah, in the book, you dedicate a whopping three sentences
48:40
to the biggest racial grift in American history,
48:42
which is Black Lives Matter.
48:44
And so like when I got to the end of the chapter,
48:46
I was shocked that there weren't more pages in it,
48:48
that there wasn't a little bit more time and effort
48:52
spent with that.
48:53
And especially knowing, and I think you said this in the book,
48:56
that the last time you wrote about all these different
48:58
incendiary topics, you didn't talk about race
49:00
and people kind of gave you crap for that.
49:01
So this was kind of like you making up for, you know,
49:04
not writing about it the first time to, you know,
49:06
this was gonna be the time when you really step up
49:08
to the plate and take a swing,
49:09
or for you being a college basketball player,
49:11
step up to the foul line and sink the last, you know,
49:14
second free throws to win it for your team.
49:16
But talk to me a little bit about that chapter,
49:18
because I don't wanna make a bunch of assumptions
49:20
about where you were at going into it.
49:22
But again, whenever I was done, I was like,
49:24
yeah, that just didn't hit the mark for me.
49:26
- So that's fair.
49:27
I've had people from the right and probably from the left
49:32
give me the same kind of feedback.
49:34
So I said, we want you to speak up more about systemic racism
49:38
and condemn Black Lives Matters.
49:41
Now we've had people from the other side, and by the way,
49:44
these are all Bible believing conservative Christians.
49:49
So if you take the, you've asked me about transgender
49:52
and you've asked me about homosexuality,
49:55
the Bible is very clear about God's design
49:59
for what it means to be human, male and female,
50:02
and God's design for marriage.
50:03
That is not an in-house issue Christians can differ on.
50:08
When it comes to issues of race,
50:11
there's a whole lot of difference
50:13
within the body of Christ about Black Lives Matters.
50:17
And of course, we've got to make a distinction
50:19
between the organization and the phrase.
50:22
And I have a full on blog, Make It An Distinction,
50:25
how the organization itself is Marxist in its roots,
50:30
its pro-choice, its critical theory.
50:33
I quote all that stuff and they took their site down,
50:36
interestingly enough.
50:37
- Of course.
50:38
- The phrase, by the way.
50:40
So I draw out some of those distinctions.
50:45
The key is, again, Bible believing conservative Christians
50:51
are going to differ over the depth of systemic racism,
50:56
how we best answer it.
50:58
This is a book that's meant to give people tools
51:02
and principles and biblical ideas
51:05
and then go talk them through with people.
51:10
And so if you had a son, maybe you do,
51:13
he reads this, you talk through them and say,
51:15
hey, you gave three lines of systemic racism.
51:17
What's the evidence for systemic racism?
51:19
How strong is it?
51:20
Are we okay with systemic racism?
51:23
Where do we find it?
51:24
What are lies about systemic racism?
51:26
That's not the purpose of this chapter.
51:30
The purpose of this chapter, so that,
51:31
how, what's a biblical approach to race?
51:34
What are some mistakes that people make broadly speaking?
51:38
How do we make some progress on racial tension?
51:43
I approached it differently than I did the trans issue
51:46
because I think it's more of an in-house issue
51:50
than it is one that's defining really the faith itself.
51:54
That's why.
51:55
Now that might still not satisfy you,
51:56
but that was my approach to the chapter
51:58
differently than say trans.
52:00
- Well, it's satisfying enough.
52:01
And I think to get me to, I guess complete satisfaction,
52:04
I would ask this follow-up.
52:06
So let's say you were writing a magnum opus
52:09
of all of these subjects.
52:09
So not, you know, 250 pages,
52:12
but you know, you're trying to be in William Craig land
52:15
where you're writing this magnum opus
52:16
that's like eight or 900 pages long or something like that.
52:19
What things did you not discuss in full detail?
52:22
Where did you hold back in that specific chapter?
52:25
What would be the things specifically
52:26
on the subject of race that you would have given,
52:28
you know, pages and pages and pages to as opposed to
52:30
just maybe a few sentences?
52:32
- I think I would have gone into questions
52:34
of systemic racism.
52:35
I think the heart of critical race theory
52:38
is an assumption that there is systemic racism.
52:42
It's not, I think I would have unpacked one of the ideas
52:45
that critical theory says not is racism a factor,
52:50
but how is racism a factor?
52:54
And that biases the data towards racism always being a factor.
52:59
Now, like you said earlier, I think race can be a factor.
53:04
And I think we need to be aware and honest
53:06
if it is a factor, then we should be willing to call it out.
53:11
But my problem with things like critical race theory
53:14
is they assume it and then end up not discovering the truth,
53:19
bias the data and we're seeing race where it doesn't exist.
53:23
So I would unpack that a lot more
53:27
in a way that I just wasn't able to.
53:29
- So it almost goes back to the lenses comment
53:31
from earlier to where it's like, okay,
53:33
if I were to go out today looking to be offended
53:36
as a white male, it's gonna be a shock to knowing
53:39
that I'm gonna find times where I feel offended
53:41
because of my immutable characteristics.
53:43
So if you go out, it's like these DEI diversity equity
53:46
and inclusion offices at campuses or companies.
53:48
Isn't it amazing how when they do their little annual report,
53:51
they've always found evidences of racism
53:54
where most people thought they didn't exist?
53:56
Because it's like they were looking for it
53:58
and the lens through which they saw
53:59
is the least charitable lens possible.
54:02
So when someone says, oh, hey, where are you from?
54:04
And that person meant like, hey,
54:05
you have a little bit of a Southern accent.
54:07
I wonder what state you're from.
54:08
Someone's gonna be like, oh, do you think I'm not American
54:10
because I have dark skin?
54:11
Right, of course, like that's gonna go down as a microaggression
54:14
or a macroaggression or something like that.
54:16
So I think we kind of, to get into that a little bit,
54:19
to leave the book and again,
54:20
- And by the way, before we leave race,
54:23
you gotta keep in mind what's the purpose of this book?
54:27
It's really not a culture warrior book.
54:30
I'm not saying there's not a place for that.
54:34
This is a book for individuals to better engage
54:39
their neighbors around them who see the world differently.
54:43
That's the purpose of this.
54:45
So I have people who are white, people who are black,
54:47
people on the left, people on the right
54:49
who are going to read this.
54:50
And I'm trying to push some of their assumptions
54:53
and get them to say, is this biblical?
54:55
How do I make progress in this area
54:58
with other Christians and non-Christians?
55:00
So for me, I've read a good amount of critical theory.
55:03
And I have definite concerns with it
55:07
on an intellectual level.
55:10
But I've also had a lot of Bible-believing
55:13
African-American friends reach out to me
55:16
just over the years and say things like,
55:19
why is the white community so worried
55:21
about critical race theory?
55:22
This feels like a diversion
55:24
from trying to understand us and our experience.
55:29
Like, okay, tell me about that.
55:32
How do you process this?
55:33
Am I just willing to listen and understand
55:37
where somebody is at?
55:39
I think there's a way to do that
55:41
without affirming ideas
55:43
that I might take serious issue with
55:46
and I do in other contexts.
55:49
That's it.
55:50
So a lot of my black friends have told me and I'm asking,
55:52
I'm like, how do you think we make progress
55:53
in racial relations?
55:55
One of the most common things I'll say to me
55:56
is they'll say, Sean, just be willing to listen.
55:59
Like, okay, that's where I'll start.
56:02
Now, we got to challenge ideas and we got to go further,
56:05
but am I willing to start there?
56:07
That's all I'm saying.
56:09
That's the heart of the chapter.
56:10
And in 1500 words, you can only say so much.
56:13
- Sure.
56:14
And I think for me, I kind of go back to,
56:16
what was it, when Morgan Freeman,
56:17
he was being interviewed on CNN or 60 Minutes
56:19
or something like that.
56:20
And the white journalist is basically teeing up
56:24
to talk about how horrible and racist America is.
56:26
And he goes, yeah, I'm done talking about it.
56:28
Like, you know how we stop racism in this country?
56:30
We stop talking about race.
56:31
Like, we don't have Black History Month.
56:33
We just have history, right?
56:34
Because Black History is American History
56:36
and all these different things.
56:37
And so for me, I try not to lean towards
56:39
the homogeneity of any group.
56:40
That's why I try to not say the black community
56:43
or the gay community or the black community
56:45
because pretending as if these people are all the exact same
56:48
because of the level of melanin in their skin.
56:50
I know a lot of people during George Floyd summer
56:52
because he died in police custody
56:53
and people pretended like it was because he was black
56:55
and it didn't have anything else to do with anything else.
56:57
They were like, okay, let's invite this random black person
57:00
up on stage at the church and let's ask questions to him
57:02
because we want to get to know the plight
57:04
of the American black man.
57:06
And it's like, wait a minute,
57:07
like you're trying to compare him
57:09
to a criminal in Minnesota.
57:11
Like, this is a guy that owns a coffee shop down the street.
57:14
Like, what kind of magical thing do you think
57:16
he's going to tell you that is going to change your group
57:19
of an entire race of people that all think and act
57:23
and vote and feel differently about every subject.
57:26
And again, we're running short on time today.
57:28
So it's kind of hard to really dig in.
57:29
But I appreciate your approach to the chapter.
57:32
And I appreciate you answering my questions
57:35
on all those different things.
57:36
But you mentioned the culture wars there.
57:38
So this will be our last question of the day
57:39
and then we'll wrap up.
57:41
There are a lot of Christians now, Sean,
57:43
that think it is the virtuous thing to do
57:45
to not lower themselves to fighting in the culture wars.
57:49
I had some dork on my podcast here recently
57:50
that basically was like, I want to be known
57:52
for what I'm for, not what I'm against.
57:53
And I'm not going to talk about any of the things
57:55
happening in culture until we figure out
57:57
what's going on in the church.
57:58
And then I asked him, I was like, wait, so, you know,
58:00
you're not going to publicly talk about
58:02
how abortion is a slaughter of the unborn,
58:04
about how all these, all these things in culture,
58:06
the the middleization of children,
58:09
the sexualization of children, you know,
58:11
changing the term from pedophile to minor attractive persons
58:14
and all that.
58:15
You're not going to talk about any of that
58:16
because there are people in the church
58:17
that are still sinners.
58:18
And he basically said, yes.
58:20
And so for me, I struggle with Christians
58:22
that are using that as, you know, almost like a shield
58:25
from them having to actually dig in to the culture
58:28
and to push back against darkness,
58:30
which unto life we're here to equip men
58:32
to push back darkness.
58:33
But talk to me about Christians that are unwilling
58:36
to even engage in the smallest way possible
58:39
in the culture wars, which is where
58:41
a lot of these biblically centered things go into
58:44
because abortion is not a government law issue,
58:46
but it does play out in that arena.
58:48
Does that make sense?
58:49
- Yeah, I think there's two mistakes we can make.
58:51
I think there's some people who say, you know what?
58:53
I'm God's prophet, I'm speaking truth.
58:55
I don't care how it lands.
58:56
And they die on every hill and they're jerks
59:01
in terms of how they communicate and it's not effective.
59:05
That's one mistake.
59:06
On the other hand, there's those who just say,
59:08
I just want to be nice.
59:09
I don't want to ruffle any feathers.
59:11
I don't ever want to say anything
59:12
that's not going to land well.
59:14
Well, I think that's also a mistake.
59:17
There is a time and a place and a need
59:20
for a prophetic voice today.
59:23
That cannot and should not go away.
59:26
But there's also a huge need in our cancel culture
59:30
for people in their interpersonal relationships
59:34
to learn how to listen better, define common ground,
59:38
to love their neighbor and meet them where they're at.
59:42
I'm not sure we do that well.
59:44
So the reality is some of us are wired more towards
59:48
being a prophetic voice.
59:50
Some of us have more of a pastoral voice.
59:52
It's not right or wrong, it's just different.
59:54
And we need to lean into that.
59:56
That's for sure.
59:58
But I think there's a way to do better.
1:00:00
The purpose of the whole book is like,
1:00:02
how can I listen better?
1:00:03
How can I get through the noise?
1:00:05
And actually ask the question,
1:00:07
how is my statement going to land with somebody
1:00:11
so I can show love to them so they can know the body of Christ
1:00:15
without backing down on speaking truth on important topics?
1:00:21
I've tried to do that.
1:00:22
I've done some pretty bold videos on issues of sexuality
1:00:26
and on pro-life and on some other controversial topics
1:00:30
while trying to be gracious with people interpersonally.
1:00:33
Don't pretend I always have it down,
1:00:35
but I think and believe there's room for both.
1:00:38
So the prophet who's just out there speaking truth
1:00:41
and counts and everybody, I say,
1:00:42
I want to ask you if you're really speaking away
1:00:44
that's a loving because you might not be.
1:00:47
There's a lot of Christians who aren't.
1:00:49
And the person who's having conversation afraid to ruffle feathers,
1:00:52
I might say, are you living more in fear of men
1:00:55
than you are living in fear of God?
1:00:57
There comes a time where we have to speak truth, come what may.
1:01:01
And I think as well,
1:01:03
that's an almost impossible needle to thread,
1:01:05
but God gave you some immutable characteristics
1:01:08
and some immutable qualities that I'm assuming He gave you
1:01:10
so that He could use those.
1:01:12
And so not everyone's going to be William Farrell,
1:01:14
not everyone's going to be St. Nicholas
1:01:15
who's going to basically fight a guy in a church meeting
1:01:18
over a hereditary statement that was made.
1:01:20
But some people are wired for that.
1:01:22
And so you have to temper that just like with anything else,
1:01:25
sex is a blessing, but it can become an idol.
1:01:27
Food is a blessing, but it can become an idol.
1:01:29
Same thing with this, you can say, like with me,
1:01:31
I'm a prophet, I'm going to speak truth.
1:01:32
But if that's all you ever do,
1:01:34
then guess what, you're bludgeoning people to death.
1:01:36
And then when you look behind you,
1:01:37
there's nobody following you because they're all in pieces
1:01:40
and pile of blood behind you.
1:01:41
So there's always that little bit.
1:01:43
And if you're the more sensitive,
1:01:45
stoic type person and all that,
1:01:46
God wants to be able to use that quality as well.
1:01:49
But don't be the Christian, don't be the conservative,
1:01:51
that looks up one day, realizes that the war has ended.
1:01:55
And every battle has passed you by
1:01:57
and you never found a hill that was worth dying on.
1:01:59
You never found a hill that was worth getting your sword,
1:02:01
putting your helmet on and charging up
1:02:03
because you just couldn't find it in your heart to do so.
1:02:05
But Sean, we're unfortunately out of time,
1:02:08
but that's all for me.
1:02:09
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:02:12
- You know what, if you still want me back,
1:02:15
even though we different on a couple issues,
1:02:16
I think you knocked it out of the park.
1:02:19
I'd do it for sure, that was fun.
1:02:21
- Okay, well off air, we will make sure
1:02:22
that we can get that going for early next year
1:02:25
'cause if you saw my notes,
1:02:27
there's a lot of other stuff that we got into.
1:02:28
We handled most of the incendiary stuff on this one,
1:02:31
but I saved a little bit in the tank for later on,
1:02:33
but Sean McDowell, thank you for coming on
1:02:35
on Daunted Life of Man's podcast.
1:02:37
- Thanks Kyle.
1:02:38
- There you go guys, I hope you enjoyed my time
1:02:40
with Sean McDowell, but before we let you go,
1:02:41
we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
1:02:43
At Daunted Life, our mission is equipping men
1:02:44
to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual,
1:02:47
mental, and physical resilience.
1:02:48
So here are the links I've got for you today.
1:02:49
I've got a link to Sean's website, his YouTube channel,
1:02:52
but also a link to a couple of books we talked about
1:02:53
in this episode of Rebels, Manifesto,
1:02:56
and Evidence that demands a verdict.
1:02:57
All right guys, thanks so much for listening to the show.
1:02:59
We do appreciate it.
1:03:00
Wherever you're listening to this,
1:03:01
please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five star
1:03:03
review.
1:03:04
If you want me to come speak live at your event
1:03:05
or on your podcast, just shoot me an email
1:03:06
to info@daunted.life.
1:03:08
That's i-n-f-o@daunted.life.
1:03:10
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook
1:03:12
and check out our website for everything else,
1:03:13
including how to donate to keep more content
1:03:15
like this coming your way.
1:03:16
Just go to www.udaunted.life.
1:03:19
And as always, we want to thank the band,
1:03:20
August Burns Red, for allowing us to use their music
1:03:22
for our content.
1:03:23
The music on this podcast is our song,
1:03:25
Cutting the Ties, which is off their 10th anniversary
1:03:27
re-recording of their album, Leveler.
1:03:28
The links are in the description.
1:03:30
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
1:03:32
Remember, keep pushing back darkness,
1:03:35
keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:03:38
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:03:43
I love the lion, it's a lion, it's a lion.
1:03:47
I know you want, it's a lion, it's a lion, it's a lion.
1:03:52
It's a lion, it's a lion, it's a lion, it's a lion.
1:03:55
You will be revived.
1:04:12
[BLANK_AUDIO]