SCOTT PAYNE | Going Undercover to Expose America's Nazis (Ep. 734)

0:00 This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.

0:24 I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.

0:26 All right, guys.

0:27 You've got a special guest on the podcast today.

0:28 His name is Scott Payne, AKA Hillbilly Donny Brasko, okay?

0:33 So he is a retired FBI special agent who spent 28 years of law enforcement investigating drug

0:38 trafficking organizations, human traffickers and domestic terrorists.

0:41 But much of that work was done undercover, okay?

0:43 And that included him infiltrating neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups like the Ku Klux

0:47 Klan and the base and also biker gangs like the outlaw motorcycle club.

0:50 And he is the author of a new book, which details everything that I just talked about

0:53 called code name, pale horse, how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis.

0:59 And I joked with him off air because I get a lot of pitches, okay, I get a lot of pitches

1:02 for people to come on the show.

1:04 And you know, I'll get probably 20 to 25 pitches of authors or documentarians or athletes

1:09 or different people for every one that I bring on, okay?

1:12 Just a bunch of people want to get on the show now, but not everything's a good fit.

1:15 And it really doesn't take much for me to get rid of a pitch.

1:18 But the pitch I got from his publisher, I was about halfway through reading it.

1:21 And I was like, absolutely, this is going to be super interesting.

1:24 And this was before I knew that this was a faith based guy.

1:27 But really in this conversation, we get into, you know, I got into law enforcement, how

1:30 I got in the FBI, what kind of brought him to the undercover world.

1:33 But we look at different misconceptions about what undercover work entails, how you get

1:37 into it.

1:38 But then we looked at some of the real life sketchiness that is that world and what happens

1:43 if you do find yourself on the opposite end of a gun or someone telling you, you have

1:46 to do this drug or I'm going to know you're a fed.

1:48 So we get into all of that, but then we get into specifically, okay, what was it like

1:53 being in the Fed, learning from people like Joe Pastone, Donnie Brasko, like that was one

1:58 of his instructors, but then, okay, now we're going to infiltrate biker gangs.

2:02 And he told the story in the podcast that was incredibly sketchy.

2:07 It's in the book as well.

2:08 But basically he was taken down into a small basement and he thought he wasn't going to

2:12 make it out.

2:13 Okay.

2:14 And he's got a recording device on him and if they find that recording device, that could

2:17 literally be curtains for him.

2:19 But we talk about that.

2:20 We talk about what is a 1% or and how that basically is, you know, used in the biker

2:25 community and things like that.

2:27 But we spend some time there in the middle talking about, dude, this is your Christian,

2:31 your Christ follower.

2:32 You go to church when you're at home, but your job is lying, right?

2:36 The way that he described it is build and betray.

2:39 That's what undercover work is.

2:40 You build relationships so that you can betray them so that people that are breaking the law

2:45 can face justice and like, how can you do that as a follower of Christ?

2:49 But then we started talking about neo-Nazis, white supremacists.

2:51 He actually joined the KKK at one point.

2:54 So we talk about that story, but then we talk about acceleration.

2:57 So these are people that are not just like racial separatists.

3:00 These are people that want the entire system to fall because they feel like that's the

3:05 only way that the whites can be, you know, elevated and different things like that.

3:09 And we talk about kind of their, their super jacked up theology and all these types of things

3:12 because they pretend to be Christians, even though they're clearly, clearly not.

3:16 But then we also talk a little bit toward the end about, okay, during the riots, the

3:19 George Floyd riots after, you know, he died and overdosed in police custody.

3:23 We talked about, okay, Antifa and BLM are killing people, burning buildings, taking

3:28 over police precincts, causing $2 billion plus of damage.

3:32 But then the Biden administration is like, Hey, look over here, well, it's white supremacists

3:35 that we need to be worried about.

3:37 We need to be worried about dorks in the woods of Alabama, potentially getting together to

3:41 write mean things on the walls of synagogues or on, you know, schools that are predominantly

3:46 black or something like that, and it just felt like a distraction tactic.

3:49 So it was a very interesting answer to hear from him.

3:51 But then at the end, I asked him like, Hey, man, you put a lot of people away because you're

3:55 undercover work.

3:56 Some of these people are out now.

3:57 Some of these people will be coming out.

3:58 You're retired now, but you're a public guy, like your faces on your book, like, you know,

4:03 these people can easily find where you live.

4:05 They know where you live.

4:06 You talk about where you live and those different things.

4:08 How do you maintain safety?

4:10 Like how do you maintain this idea that, okay, me, my wife, my kids, you know, my loved ones

4:15 that were all safe.

4:16 And so I really enjoyed his answer to that.

4:17 So guys, I really enjoyed this interview today.

4:19 I'm thrilled that we were able to pull it off for you, but I'm not going to keep him from

4:22 you any longer.

4:23 So without further ado, let's get into it.

4:26 Scott Payne, welcome to Undaunted Life and Man's podcast.

4:29 Thank you, sir.

4:30 Hey, buddy, I think we hit it off off air.

4:32 And so now we just have to carry that momentum on into the interview because you did a little

4:37 bit of research on us and you said you're following us now.

4:39 So I don't know if that's a good thing because you used to be an FBI agent.

4:42 Is that like I'm following you because I'm on some sort of secret list or you're following

4:45 us because you like the content.

4:47 I'm following you because I like the content and hey, if I could be following me right now,

4:51 who knows?

4:52 Hey, you know what?

4:53 I think I made my way on a couple of different lists, but it's funny because I was telling

4:57 you off air and I mentioned it in the introduction.

5:00 This was one of the quickest.

5:01 Yes, I will have this guy on the show of my entire career because as, you know, as time

5:05 has gone on, it's like, okay, I would bring on one pitch for every five pitches I would

5:10 get, you know, now it's like 20 or 25, I get pitched 20 or 25 different people to come

5:14 on the show for everyone that I bring on.

5:16 This one was like, boom, snap.

5:18 Let's get this guy on here.

5:20 Interesting background and then reading the book was obviously fantastic, but let's let's

5:24 start small and then we'll ease our way into your career.

5:27 What was it like growing up, Scott Payne?

5:31 Not bad, you know, I was an 80s guy, so high school in the 80s, late 80s, was pretty cool.

5:40 But now I grew up in a Christian home.

5:43 My parents, well, actually both of my grandfathers were pastors, what a little claim to fame

5:48 for the, my mom's side of the family, the Kelly family is, my grandfather got a shout

5:56 out on the Gaither Show one time.

5:57 And they were like, hey, we were up in a tent revival and, you know, I was like, oh, man,

6:02 that's my grandpa, you know.

6:04 But I grew up like that in a musical family, very musical, went and sang at churches, helped

6:11 open churches, stuff like that.

6:13 My first seven years of school, I went to a Christian private school, Washington Avenue

6:18 Christian School in Greenville, South Carolina.

6:21 And then around eighth grade, I went into public school and, you know, there's been quite a

6:26 few bumps in the road, but it's my faith that's always taken care of me.

6:31 I mean, I've strayed and done some pretty dumb things.

6:33 And as I like to say, the Lord laid the smack down on me and I got humbled very quickly.

6:41 So, you know, you know, you know, growing up playing sports, probably started playing

6:46 music around seventh grade.

6:49 And to this day, at 54 years old, me and my high school friends are close knit group.

6:55 There's probably like eight of us.

6:56 We are all still super tight.

6:59 That's pretty unique.

7:00 I mean, when you see a guy basically in their thirties that still has friends that's shocking,

7:05 much less as you get older and grow, especially if you go all the way back to high school.

7:08 So the when we'll get more into your faith because that has a lot of through points into

7:13 the work that you did.

7:14 But eventually you were drawn towards law enforcement, but that can take many forms and

7:19 you were drawn specifically towards the federal law enforcement to the FBI.

7:24 So I know we're kind of speeding into your story that, you know, it takes a lot longer

7:27 to get there.

7:28 But I guess what drew you to law enforcement and then why not law enforcement on the local

7:32 level?

7:33 Why the Fed?

7:34 I actually was a local cop.

7:36 I started at the sheriff's office in South Greenville, Greenville County Sheriff's office

7:40 in South Carolina.

7:41 Man, you know, you do this whole dive into a book writing thing and going back and looking

7:47 at your life stuff.

7:51 Some of it's pretty clear, you're like, man, I've always kind of been an underdog guy.

7:55 I've always had that kind of shepherd mentality, that livestock guardian dog, if you will.

8:02 A bully of bullies, not saying I didn't bully, and I'm not proud of it when I did, but for

8:07 the most part, I just remember being like a bully of bullies.

8:11 I get to college playing football, but I really just went to college, so I'd have four more

8:17 years to figure out what I was going to do in my life, and while I was there, I came

8:22 across, and I became a bouncer as well, which I mean, you know, it's not the, it's a pretty

8:28 seedy environment, some of the places I worked, but I came across an elective that was law

8:36 enforcement and criminal justice, and I just really liked it, and then the more I got into

8:40 it, went and done some ride-alongs with cops, and I was a deputy sheriff for five years,

8:47 so uniform patrol three, and then two, I was in vice, my last two, I was a vice in narcotics

8:52 investigator, so now I'm already starting to get into that dope game, undercover game,

8:57 you get certified at the state level, and I guess I always, I guess in my mind I always

9:04 pictured to go on federal.

9:06 I didn't remember that, but I found a note, I found a note in one of my old books, it's

9:09 like I'm going to be in the feds in five years, and I'm like, I don't, I don't even remember

9:13 writing that, but generally speaking, at that point in my life, you're looking at where you're

9:18 going to be in five years in law enforcement, because at my sheriff's office, like many,

9:23 you don't get those raises every year, the county council gives themselves raises, but

9:26 not the cops, and it got to a point to where I could have literally, if five years in, I

9:31 could have stepped out and came back in as a guy with a four-year degree, and I would

9:35 make as much if not more money than I was making as a five-year deputy, so, but I applied

9:40 with the FBI, and I never got a chance to fill out any other federal agencies, and, and

9:47 the rest is history as they say.

9:49 Rest is history had a multiple decade career doing that, and we'll get into that work,

9:53 but sometimes when we get into discussions, I mean, I talk to people that are like, you

9:58 know, country music stars, or athletes, or authors, or things like that, there's always

10:01 misconceptions about what it is that people do, and what the work looks like, working

10:07 for the FBI.

10:08 What are some of the common misconceptions, because we live in this, you know, TV and

10:12 movie culture, where everything is super dramatized, before we get into the other undercover stuff,

10:16 just working for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

10:19 What are common misconceptions?

10:20 Well, there's plenty, but I love it when you go and you're like, you're watching a TV show

10:26 or a movie, and they're like, I need HRT here in 30 minutes, and you're like, I don't know

10:31 about 30 minutes, unless we're right around Quantico, but, or, you know, I need to go

10:35 up on this phone right now, and you're like, man, a Title III wiretap, I mean, we're talking

10:40 5080 page affidavits, you've got to walk it through, it's got to get, I mean, a slew

10:45 of approvals, and then you finally get up on a phone, if you've got the right number,

10:51 and within 15 days, you have to do a 15 day report, and in another 15 days, you got to

10:55 re-up or take it down, so it's, it's, there's a lot of misconceptions like that, but I will

11:02 say that TV's gotten better, you know, the 80s, I mean, everybody's got their finger

11:07 on the trigger, everybody's muzzling everybody, it's just terrible tactics, and now there's

11:12 there's enough consultants out there that they're looking pretty real.

11:16 Yeah, the funny thing is, it's hard for me because I was born in 86, and so I didn't

11:21 grow up watching those 80s action movies, right, I have to go back and watch them now, and

11:26 they're just terrible because like the UFC is a thing now, so we know all those roundhouse

11:31 kicks are not like a real thing, people aren't flying through windows when they get teeped

11:36 or things like that, so it is kind of interesting how things have evolved.

11:39 Okay, but so now you're in the Fed, you're doing that type of work, but you are, I guess

11:44 you were being summoned, but you also felt personally called to doing some undercover

11:48 work, and I, you know, you can tell us kind of what does that look like, do you just raise

11:51 your hand and be like, I would like to go undercover, please, or are you kind of like

11:54 identified by the Bureau, and let's kind of keep the common misconceptions thing going.

11:58 What are some of the common misconceptions about, okay, I'm doing undercover work, but

12:02 what does that entail?

12:04 Okay, well, let me start with the only thing you're required to be when you were hired

12:11 as an FBI agent is to be a case agent.

12:15 If you take on collateral duties, which I was like, I did a ton of collateral duties,

12:20 but I was a case agent first, so undercover program is voluntary, I wouldn't necessarily

12:25 say that people came looking for me because that's, I was trying to get into the program.

12:31 The FBI certification process is very extensive, not knocking any other federal agencies, I've

12:37 got friends and all of them, but it's a, it's a, there are a lot of blocks to get checked,

12:44 and we actually, just to get a slot in our certification school is very tough, and if

12:49 you get that slot, you got two week, you got a two week certification process, no days

12:54 off, huge on sleep deprivation, lots of scenarios, lots of training, drinking from a fire hydrant,

13:04 and it'll, it breaks a lot of people, I've seen, I got certified in 2002 as a FBI undercover,

13:12 I started probably role playing at the school in 2003, and I only missed a handful of schools

13:18 for the rest of my career, and I had never seen a hundred percent graduation rate, and

13:23 it's not hazing, it's not nothing like that, it's just that some people, you can be the

13:27 best case agent in the world, but maybe you're not cut out for undercover, you can be the

13:31 best SWAT operator in the world.

13:33 I've had friends that I was on SWAT with that were squared away dudes, and I've seen

13:38 them in action, and everything's cool, and then they go to an undercover school to try

13:42 to get certified, and after about three or four days with no sleep, they look like they've

13:46 been molested by a tribe, you know what I mean, they come walking in, their hairs disheveled,

13:51 buttons don't match on their shirt, zippers undone, you're like, man, are you okay?

13:55 And some people just can't take that normal, that like if I'm working regular hours this

14:01 week, my regimen is going to be the same, but most likely, right, I'm going to get up

14:05 about the same time every day, work out about the same time every day, eat about the same

14:08 time every day, but can you take that, flip it sideways upside down and not get your square

14:13 meals, miss your workouts for several days, if not weeks, and it not screw you up mentally

14:18 and have an adverse impact on your psyche?

14:20 Now, to your other question, the undercover here, I just got through teaching to Monday,

14:27 I was in San Destin, Florida, teaching at a gang in Narcotics Conference, and I'll ask,

14:33 hey, what do you think undercover is?

14:35 What's undercover to you?

14:36 You walk around and people are like, oh, it's acting, or as soon as I go, you're lying,

14:39 or you pretend to be something you're not, you know, you're taking on a person, a persona

14:45 so you can infiltrate a group and get information, that's all pretty good, but in the undercover

14:49 world, we build and betray, and it sucks if you look at it that way, but we are building

14:55 relationships that if you're doing criminal activity and we're gathering evidence of it,

15:00 we're going to be betraying that friendship.

15:03 One of the most interesting things about the book, again, the book is codename "Pale Horse,

15:07 Fantastic Book," guys, it's in the show notes, you should definitely check it out, it is out

15:10 now if you're listening to this on time, is you built such good relationships doing your

15:15 undercover work that even after you busted people, they'd be like, hey, man, I know you're

15:19 just doing your job, still love you, bro, like that was one of the parts of the book,

15:22 I was like shocked, like these people are going to federal prison, and they're like,

15:26 ah, but I can't hold against Scott, Scott's my boy, and so that's kind of an ode to kind

15:30 of what you do, but I guess once guys get into the undercover thing, so they pass, they

15:36 get through the program, they are undercover, what are some of the mistakes, what are some

15:42 of the mistakes that agents make when they're working undercover that can maybe bounce them

15:45 out of the program or just, I guess, how risky does it actually get?

15:51 Because again, this over, you know, dramatized TV culture, we're always thinking the undercover

15:57 guy is literally basically about to get shot in every scene, like, oh my gosh, he accidentally

16:02 said his real name, and he couldn't really get out of it, and so like those are the things

16:06 that we think guys do is like they kind of mess up themselves, or maybe they speak too

16:11 much, or they kind of go over the top, but what are some of those mistakes that those

16:14 guys make?

16:15 Well, there's a decent amount, I mean, I made plenty of mistakes, I mean, there's actually

16:20 policy in the FBI undercover operations manual that I had a lot to do with because it wasn't

16:27 a policy, and when they were like, hey, what are the rules on that?

16:30 I'm like, well, there aren't any, and then they revamp the orders, the policy guide,

16:37 and it says, you know, under subsection adverse impacts or whatever adverse events.

16:43 But some of the things like even at the school, some of the ones that I remember specifically

16:50 are, if you can't tell the situation's deteriorating, I mean, we've had some unbelievable former

16:58 special forces, whatever, you're trying to get in the undercover program, but just say

17:04 for instance, if they've been overseas, and they've seen some horrific stuff, and put

17:11 bodies back together, or seen just, I mean, you know, people belong to bits, they're so

17:16 desensitized, sometimes, that when they're doing a scenario at an undercover school, and

17:22 your source has died, you've done dope, you've done, I mean, this is all hypothetical in a

17:26 scenario, but they don't, they're still in it, because they don't realize, hey, there's

17:31 no case worth this, you got to get out, or, you know, you just can't see that you're doing

17:36 things that things around you are getting bad, I had some instances like that that happened

17:41 to me, and the situation was definitely deteriorating, and in my mind, you know, you're playing

17:46 chess, you're trying to be four or five moves ahead of the target, or whoever you're dealing

17:51 with, and I fell behind in the moves on that one, because I ended up in a tight spot, but

17:55 I don't know, it's, you see the situation deteriorating, but as soon as I passed this

18:03 test, they were trying to give me everything went, it was fine, it was like, you got to

18:08 pay attention to that, and I articulated that, I'm like, look, yeah, it was bad, but then

18:12 as soon as I faked this test, it was like, all right, hey man, everything's cool, come

18:17 on in the back, here's all the dope, my brother's a cop, blah, blah, blah, and you're doing

18:20 all this stuff, you can make a lot of, I mean, generally speaking, just coming from the narcotics

18:27 world, even back in the mid 90s when I was a vice narcotics investigator at the sheriff's

18:33 office, I mean, you got that black cloud over you, you got dope, you got money, and you

18:37 got women, or whatever the vice may be, it could be the opposite way, but that's generally

18:42 that black cloud, and you see people sadly make mistakes, but in the undercover world,

18:50 I mean, but let me say this, if you were pretending to be something that you are not, like this

18:57 really different than what you are for a long period of time, like deep cover, generally

19:02 one or two things is going to happen, you're either going to slip up because it's not really

19:06 you, and then you might be getting caught by the bad guys, or you're going to become

19:11 it, and neither one of them are good.

19:14 So, but to your question on like danger, and yeah, it's there, it depends on who you work,

19:20 I mean, it depends on your case, but what I, the way I was taught and what I've learned

19:26 through my 28 years in law enforcement, and then I'm still doing stuff with them, even

19:31 retired, but trying to think what you said, what was it you asked me there at the end?

19:41 Well, basically it's the mistakes that people make, but what some agents do, that's, I guess

19:48 how risky is it for certain people in certain situations, maybe because here in the book,

19:54 you talk about two critical skills of keeping undercover work legal, okay, the first thing

19:59 is like, okay, you can't entrap anybody, or I guess that was the second thing is don't

20:04 entrap anybody, right?

20:05 Because if you infiltrate, or if you initiate a criminal plot, that's entrapment, but also

20:10 never be violent unless it's self-defense.

20:12 And I just think of a real life scenario where it's like, hey, you better, you better

20:18 be violent towards this person, or you better hurt this person, or we're going to hurt

20:21 you.

20:22 And in that moment, it's like, what in the world do you do?

20:24 And it's like, how realistic and how often are guys really being caught in situations

20:27 like that where it's like, well, even like you, it's like, hey, you're going to do this

20:31 drug, or I'm going to shoot you, you know, those types of things.

20:36 Yeah, thanks for getting me back on track.

20:40 I'm on my first cup of coffee.

20:41 Oh, it's all good, man.

20:43 We got plenty of time.

20:44 I know, right.

20:46 There's always a propensity for violence.

20:49 It doesn't matter really what you work, so you never want to get lax anyway in law enforcement,

20:54 but let's just say my skill set led me to backwoods with toothless meth heads, drug

21:01 addicts, violent biker gangs, white supremacy groups.

21:06 But I've got plenty of peers and mentors and people I've been blessed a mentor that maybe

21:11 their skill set is some huge white collar case.

21:14 Maybe it's a Wall Street fraud type thing, or maybe they're doing art crime, and they're

21:18 not necessarily going to into the woods with a bunch of armed crazed people, but they might

21:24 be doing a cheese and wine thing, but there's still a propensity for violence.

21:29 If somebody's going to go to jail, I mean, generally, a lot of times you're more worried

21:37 about the white collar person than the gang banger who's used to the system.

21:40 They may fight a lot, but once the cups are on, it's like, all right, all right, man, you

21:43 know, they know it's just like the game, but say it's the person the bank manager or something

21:51 that's been bezeling.

21:52 When that first cuff goes on, they're like, oh, man, this is real.

21:55 I'm not going to do good in prison or a pedophile.

21:58 You know, you got crimes against children people, and that's a huge sickness in itself,

22:04 but they don't do well in prison.

22:07 So, you know, there's always a propensity for violence, and so it doesn't matter for

22:11 me, if you're asking me the question, it doesn't matter whether it's a white collar crime,

22:15 whether it's a hardcore drug, gang, it's always a propensity for violence.

22:22 When I think it's interesting, one thing you were saying on an earlier question is it seems

22:26 like guys are grasping too much onto the case that they can't just let it go.

22:31 I watched, I re-watched Heat here recently, one of the best movies ever.

22:36 And as a crime movie, the main character, De Niro, one of the main characters, he basically

22:40 talks about you've got to be able to walk away from any situation in 30 seconds flat.

22:44 That's walk away from people, walk away from situations.

22:47 You've got to be able to let go so you technically hold everything loosely, and it seems like

22:51 the agents that really get in trouble are the ones that hold on tightly with both hands.

22:55 And I guess another thing that you mentioned there that's interesting that I wanted to

22:58 ask you about is switching.

23:01 Whether you're in deep cover or just doing undercover, it's switching back and forth,

23:05 because all the while while you're doing this undercover stuff, and guys, we haven't even

23:08 got into the undercover stuff that you were doing, and don't worry, we're going to get

23:11 there.

23:12 You're married.

23:13 You've got kids.

23:14 And there's one misconception that you're living that second life, like you're gone for

23:20 years at a time, living this double life or something like that.

23:23 That's not exactly the case.

23:25 But how hard is it when that line between Scott Payne and whatever the name is that you've

23:32 taken on and whatever group that you're infiltrating, how hard is it to switch back and forth and

23:36 realize like, no, I'm not becoming this bad person.

23:39 I'm just basically playing a role so that I can build and betray.

23:43 Very good question.

23:44 I think in the beginning, it was a lot harder.

23:47 But as the years went on, especially towards the end of my career, you just know, but maybe

23:52 the best way for me to answer is this.

23:55 For me, the way I was taught and the way I did it is I was never far from what I really

24:00 am who I really am.

24:02 I mean, I'm still the Jovial country guy, I'm a, you know, boisterous, big splash, whatever.

24:09 I may or may not have kids, I may or may not be married, I may or may not play college

24:13 ball, may or may not be a musician, but you can pretty much bet I lift weights and I'll

24:17 probably ride motorcycles.

24:20 But for me, I mean, I pull from within, right?

24:26 So if I'm with a violent biker gang, I mean, for the most part, I had a good time.

24:32 Because it was just like being back on the football team, you know, and just cracking

24:37 skulls and doing whatever, a bunch of dumb testosterone stuff.

24:40 But one of the main things I would do is I got to, I always have my necklace and I got

24:48 my cross, right?

24:49 But when I would go get ready to go undercover, the cross comes off and I had a skull and

24:54 I put the skull on and that, I don't know, or maybe that's me putting on my Superman

24:58 cape or whatever, but you just start making that transition because literally, and things

25:03 are getting tougher these days, weight tougher with like facial recognition and all this

25:07 stuff.

25:08 But in my heyday, once I got out of my vehicle at the airport of wherever I was living, I'm

25:15 Scott Calloway now, or I'm Scott Anderson now, or I'm Scott Williams and there's nothing

25:19 on me that says anything different.

25:22 And you know, you're social, you know, your date of birth, you know, where high school

25:25 you went to, you got to know it all because you've got to look, you have to look as real

25:29 as you can.

25:30 Hey, guys, real quick, as you've heard me describe before, I am incredibly conservative

25:34 about the supplements that I take.

25:36 I spent years being terrified of putting different products in my body because I didn't know

25:41 what they were made with or if it was going to be kind of fly by night companies using

25:44 all kinds of crazy ingredients.

25:46 So I've always wanted to partner with an American company that only uses the highest

25:51 quality ingredients and that's why I want to remind you that we are partnered with Jocko

25:55 Fuel.

25:56 Jocko Fuel is Jocko willing supplement company that is based here in the United States.

26:00 So what are some of my favorite products that they make?

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26:06 not that long ago and it is ridiculously good.

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26:12 I finally decided what my favorite was and that's pink lemonade.

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26:20 I prefer the peach flavor myself.

26:22 They also make pre-workout and ready to drink protein.

26:25 So I actually mix the ready to drink protein in my boy's milk and they love it.

26:29 They're constantly like Dada banana milk, banana milk.

26:31 So we got to hook that up in the Thompson household.

26:34 But I also use their krill oil, fish oil, creatine, vitamin D and their sleep aids.

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27:02 Promocode undaunted to get 10% off your order.

27:05 I mean, that's obviously your life is on the line because as you described, no matter

27:09 if it's white collar, blue collar, crazy people in the woods, you know, drinking goat blood.

27:12 Don't worry, guys.

27:13 We'll get there.

27:14 There's always that.

27:15 You know, there's danger around every corner.

27:16 And if you if you slip up, you could get got one question before we start getting

27:20 into the actual undercover work.

27:23 You worked with the actual real life Donny Brasko, right?

27:27 And so like, you know, that's second movie reference, but that's technically a real thing

27:30 and a real person that actually happened.

27:32 But it was just so interesting as you're talking about the real world guy, you know,

27:37 the alter ego was Donny Brasko, but he was still at the bureau after, you know, he had

27:42 basically gone world famous for being this person that infiltrated the mob and different

27:46 things like that.

27:47 So for you, what was it like getting into the world?

27:50 Okay, you're a fed now.

27:51 Okay.

27:52 Now you're an undercover guy.

27:53 Oh, shoot.

27:54 We're learning from the guy.

27:55 Like the, the, I guess you could call him the most famous of guys that have done this

27:58 line of work, but here he is teaching you the ins and outs of doing this job so that you

28:03 could do well in your chosen field or wherever you're sent to.

28:08 I would be like an unhealthy kid in a candy store.

28:11 That's right.

28:12 Yeah.

28:13 That actually is on the front row, that's not my choice again, that the undercover school

28:18 is 20 slots.

28:19 So you got four groups of five.

28:22 And my group, we were on the front row and here I am, a guy who's infatuated with undercover.

28:32 I already have the bug because I did undercover work, not like super deep, but you know, bind

28:38 up and do and buy stuff at the sheriff's office.

28:43 And now I'm the middle seat of the front row.

28:46 And I've got Donnie Braska, I got Joe Pastone talking to me and he's still a friend of this

28:49 day.

28:50 I mean, he's a mentor for, I mean, but he, he graciously did a blurb on the book as well.

28:58 He is a anytime he comes around, I think I saw him within the last year I saw him because

29:02 he was in town speaking at a, at a conference and he hit me up, you know, my nickname was

29:06 Big Country and he's like, hey country, I'm coming to, you know, Tennessee and I'm like,

29:11 I'm on my way, you know, drop what you're doing.

29:14 But yeah, but Joe is probably the most famous, but there are so many that you don't know.

29:21 That's a very good lead for me to say this, because there's going to be haters and there's

29:26 going to be people out there that like, oh, you just like to talk about yourself and okay,

29:30 that's fine.

29:31 That's not the truth, but that's okay.

29:36 There are men and women out there that have done way more than me that have done, been

29:41 in more harrowing situations than me and I don't want anybody to have to go through

29:46 anything harrowing or something scary, but if we're on the front line and we're still

29:50 doing undercover, it's probably going to happen, but you got Joe Pastone, but then you meet

29:55 these other people and then you get involved deeply in the program and you've got, you've

29:59 got this cadre and I've been a part of a lot of units, you know, SWAT teams, narcotics

30:04 units, whatever it may be, the undercover program during, again, like that 15 to 20

30:09 year period that in the FBI, that was the most diverse group of people I've ever been

30:15 a part of.

30:16 Well, the interesting thing is I've had the wonderful privilege of being around a lot

30:21 of people from the spec ops community.

30:23 So these could be Navy SEALs or Marine Recon or SF or these different guys.

30:27 And so they're the guys that have the big followings on Instagram and I like those guys

30:30 and I'm friends with those guys, but then when you're just hanging out, you know, having

30:34 a scotch and a cigar and all that.

30:35 And then you start hearing stories about guys and they'll only refer to them by their code

30:39 name and like, because they'll be like, yeah, you know, I got a bunch of followers on Instagram,

30:43 but this dude was the man, but he's, you know, quite professional.

30:48 He doesn't want to be acknowledged for anything.

30:49 And then you start hearing about, okay, well, the public thinks that this guy killed that

30:53 guy, but actually it was this guy and he just didn't want any, you know, he didn't want

30:57 any play.

30:58 And so he's like, yeah, let's just say the other guy killed him.

31:00 It's just an interesting group of people.

31:01 All right.

31:02 We made it up.

31:03 Yeah, we made all the way here, Scott.

31:04 We need to start talking about some of your undercover stuff that you actually did.

31:07 And I've spent a lot of time watching gangland shows.

31:11 Okay.

31:12 And so that's actually helped me quite a bit.

31:13 So you and I are talking a little bit because I've watched all these biker gang shows and

31:17 I don't mean like sons of anarchy.

31:19 I mean, like documentaries, you know, about these different groups and these different

31:21 gangs.

31:22 Like I recognize tattoos on people.

31:24 Like I had this interaction with a guy in New Mexico at a gas pump, you know, make the

31:28 long story short.

31:29 The moment he started talking to me, I knew that he was clicked up, that he had been

31:33 as in prison.

31:34 And I was pretty sure what he was in prison for.

31:37 And throughout our conversation, as I was sharing the gospel with him, yep.

31:41 He was clicked up.

31:42 I had the right click.

31:43 He wasn't prison and he wasn't prison for what I thought he was in prison for.

31:45 And he had just gotten out just because I had watched these shows.

31:49 And so guys, you know, you think, Hey, this is just my hobby, but you should always be

31:52 thinking how my hobby could turn into a gospel related conversation where you're actually

31:56 making, you know, you're making common ground with somebody like that.

32:00 But one of the first things that you got into is you were put on to biker gangs.

32:04 And there are things where people will see patches on guys, cuts or things like that

32:09 that say 1% or they don't exactly know what that means.

32:12 But let's talk a little bit about biker gangs.

32:15 You get kind of getting into that world 1% and then how you were turned on to trying

32:20 to infiltrate outlaw motorcycle club.

32:22 Sure, I kind of was a biker, I mean, that's my old, my old narcotics squad.

32:27 I mean, if you saw a picture of us, we all, we looked like we were a biker gang pretty

32:31 much.

32:32 I mean, we all rode Harley's and we'd go to Myrtle Beach Bike Week every year or twice

32:35 a year usually.

32:36 But, and where I was at, South Carolina was a hell's angel state and it still is.

32:42 But so when I bounced in, I bounced in, I bounced in, I'm not proud of it, I bounced

32:49 in gentleman's clubs, which in the book I say is an oxymoron because anytime I've ever

32:55 been in those places, there's not a single gentleman in there.

32:59 But when I was doing that, the hell's angels came there a lot.

33:02 So I was getting all kinds of exposure like that.

33:06 And then for the people or listeners that don't know the biker world, there's, you know,

33:11 you've got what you've already said, the cut, the colors that's their vest, you'll have

33:16 a top rocker, it'll say like, you know, outlaws MC and then they'll be their patch, which

33:22 usually has a nickname or whatever and then you've got a bottom rocker, which might be

33:24 like the state, Massachusetts.

33:27 And then if you see the 1%er, that goes way back to when, you know, all these motorcycle

33:32 gangs were being formed from guys coming back from war and it was a rowdy, raucous bunch

33:38 in the owner, or I guess the lead guy of the American Motorcycle Association, I think

33:45 that's what it was back then, came out with a statement and it says something to the effect

33:49 of look, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good law abiding citizens.

33:55 It's only 1% of their bad and they took that as a badge of honor, smack that on their chest

34:00 and their 1%ers.

34:01 They also have a mandatory, most clubs have a mandatory meeting every week and they refer

34:07 to that as church.

34:09 So when we start talking about the outlaws, and I say we were going to church, I don't

34:13 mean church, church, I mean like, you know, the weekly meeting.

34:17 So the way it happened for me is I get certified, I'm doing undercovers, but I'm going back

34:25 and role playing at the school, so I'm starting to get noticed by some people that are longer

34:30 in the tooth and undercover and very involved in the program.

34:34 And they might see me and I guess, I don't know, I was blessed that they thought I had

34:39 something and they would say, "Hey man, we got this case coming up, what do you think?

34:43 Would you be interested in it?"

34:45 And I ended up going up to Boston, Massachusetts to be interviewed for the outlaws case.

34:53 And eventually, I guess, I don't know how many they interviewed or whatever, but I got

34:56 picked and then the game starts.

34:58 Now, it's how do we approach, how do I get in, what's the redneck doing in Massachusetts

35:05 kind of thing, you know, and then that's how the case agent, the case team have been working

35:11 the outlaws, I think on that case for at least a year.

35:14 And now they've gotten to the point to where, hey, they've got all this intelligence, they've

35:18 got some crimes, but they know there's more there and they're at the point where they

35:22 can try to insert an undercover and then that ended up being me.

35:25 So insert an undercover, but let's really get into the granular level of how do you even

35:30 get started because obviously you don't just walk up to one of their church services and

35:34 be like, hey, I'm a guy, I ride bicycles with motors on them.

35:37 Do you all want to hang out with me?

35:39 Like those things don't happen.

35:40 And so I'm sure there is kind of trade craft that you can't share about how you would insert

35:44 into a situation like that.

35:46 But I mean, infiltration doesn't happen without an introduction.

35:49 So how in the world do you get introduced?

35:52 There are many different ways and there is some trade craft I won't talk about.

35:56 But for me in this case, I decided with the team, the case team that it would be best.

36:03 I felt most comfortable if I went in and what we call like a cold bump.

36:08 Like I'm bumping into you, I've never met you.

36:11 I'm not being introduced to you.

36:14 And what I did for that particular case is I was just being me, loud mouth, country guy

36:21 at a Northeast bar strip club, because we knew that's where they frequented.

36:28 One of the clubs that they frequented in Brockton, Massachusetts.

36:32 So I went in there a couple of times along, kind of got the lay of the land.

36:36 And then I was in there one night when we decided, hey, tonight it's going to be our

36:40 first try and they were leaving church at their clubhouse.

36:47 And they all came to this place called the Foxy Lady.

36:50 And I was in there and I'm just being me.

36:54 But I've already got a group of people around telling jokes, laugh, and we're drinking.

36:59 And there was one, I mean, you're attracting attention, right?

37:03 And all these outlaws are on this other side of the bar and got the back corner.

37:08 And one of them, he was like, hey, man, where are you from and this side and the other?

37:13 And then we start talking and eventually, you know, it's just ingratiating, gaining trust,

37:18 building those relationships and their friendship.

37:22 And maybe you find out they're doing something illegal.

37:25 Maybe you don't.

37:26 You know, I've done several under, I mean, a lot of under covers where you're in there

37:31 for five months and there's nothing criminally being done and it's just time to pull chocks.

37:35 Yeah.

37:36 And so with that in mind again, guys, I don't want to spoil any of the amazing stories that

37:40 come from the book.

37:41 Again, it's codename pale horse.

37:42 You got to go check it out.

37:44 But you know, we've been talking for like 30 minutes.

37:46 We're basically best friends now.

37:48 I want a story from the outlaw motorcycle club time period that you didn't tell in the

37:53 book.

37:54 I want to know a good one.

37:55 Super juicy.

37:56 It could just be interesting or funny because again, guys, no spoiler alert here.

38:01 Your work that you did brought down a lot of the guys that were were in that club.

38:05 You talk about it in the book, but give me something.

38:07 Give me something good.

38:08 Give me something.

38:09 Come on.

38:10 See, that's, that's a great thing, but I'm so diagram transparent.

38:12 I think I put everything in the book.

38:14 I'm trying to.

38:15 Everything.

38:16 There's not like one like kind of funny story or kind of interesting thing that you didn't

38:20 expect.

38:21 It's got to be something.

38:22 But man, I think I, I think I put it in there.

38:25 Okay.

38:26 Tell, how about you just give us a story from the book without spoiling anything because

38:28 obviously, you know, you get into the detail.

38:30 Yeah, we can talk about, um, well, the one of the scariest things that ever happened

38:36 to me happened on that case.

38:38 Let's go.

38:39 I, uh, and this will be, this will, this will be good for this specific, I can't talk specifically

38:45 this podcast in your listener group because we're faith based, right?

38:49 Um, I had been undercover for a year and a half of these guys and I, we were doing all

38:55 kinds of criminal activity because they had learned that what they believed is that I

38:59 was a high ranking member of an international theft ring.

39:02 I was based out of south Texas deep south Texas on the border and I was moving stolen

39:06 stuff to the cartel, which really happened all the time.

39:10 Um, so they started reporting vehicle stolen and then they would sell them to me at a stolen

39:17 price, they get their insurance money, all kind of light stuff, but I'm gaining trust

39:22 and you know, in the criminal world, greed generally wins all the time.

39:29 Everybody's favorite color is green, you know, they want money.

39:32 Um, and so for a year and a half, we've been getting in all kinds of, uh, uh, evidence

39:40 of criminal activity, whether it be stolen vehicles, because then they eventually just

39:43 started stealing them right off the line out of people, you know, carjackings where they've

39:47 taken somebody at gunpoint and they're getting me to get rid of the vehicle.

39:51 Um, there were murders that were happening and they were, I mean, all kinds of stuff

39:55 was going on, but we're at a year and a half point and I'm, I mean, I've got really good

40:00 relationships and if you look at Scott Calloway, but if you look at who my closest friendships

40:08 were, uh, there was a guy named Scott town, uh, we were the tightest, um, scary how tight

40:15 we were, scary how much we had in common.

40:17 Um, and then the second probably tightest relationship would have been a guy that went

40:21 by this street named clothesline and he was an enforcer for the outlaws.

40:26 So let's get to that point.

40:27 It's now a year and a half in and the case team, uh, FBI decided we wanted to try to do,

40:34 uh, a drug protection because they had been, I mean, when I met the president of the Taunton

40:39 chapter, Joe Dawgs, as soon as I said, I was in McCallen, Texas.

40:42 The first thing out of his mouth was how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for down

40:46 there?

40:47 I'm like, well, I'm like, if anybody was wondering and we needed predication, we now have it.

40:53 Um, so now I've let it trickle out after a year and a half.

40:57 Hey, I did used to be involved in the dope game.

40:59 We've got cartels trying to move dope into Canada, um, and, and they were always, especially

41:05 Joe Dawgs was looking, amen, they're always looking for a lower price for the drug and

41:12 a higher purity of the drug.

41:14 Um, and it was a good chance for them to meet and get a good pipe, get a connection to a

41:19 strong pipeline of narcotics.

41:22 So here we are a year and a half.

41:23 The assistant United States attorney, which is the person assigned, uh, from the US attorney's

41:28 office on the case, they're working the case and he said, Hey man, do you, because we're

41:33 preparing to do this drug protection and he's like, are they talking about that in the club

41:37 house?

41:38 Uh, and I'm like, yeah.

41:39 All the time.

41:40 I was like, well, uh, it would be great if we could get that on a recording in the club

41:45 house.

41:46 Cause it helps with asset form, but you're in search warrants and stuff like that.

41:48 And of course I said, yeah, I'll do it.

41:50 Cause that's what we're doing.

41:51 You're on the front line and you're going in there and you're getting the evidence.

41:53 And again, a year and a half, I don't want to say I got a lax, but Joe Dawgs says, Hey,

42:01 come over here.

42:02 Meet us at the clubhouse.

42:03 This is the night before we're supposed to do the deal.

42:04 Uh, I get there.

42:06 They're still having church.

42:07 I'm knocking on the door, knocking on the door, Joe Dawgs finally peeks, cracks the door

42:11 and peeks through.

42:12 It's like, Hey, uh, we're not ready yet.

42:13 And I was kind of a smart elegant, like, well, then why don't you tell me to come over

42:15 here?

42:16 So he sends me with another guy to go get something to eat.

42:18 We come back.

42:19 What I didn't know, uh, and what we found out later is that that the outlaws in Massachusetts

42:27 there, uh, clearly somebody had to send it up the chain because it came down from the

42:31 top, which, uh, the national president at that time was a guy, went by Milwaukee Jack.

42:38 And they said, Hey, is this guy talking about me really been checked out?

42:42 And the response was we found out, Hey, we've done like eight plus jobs with this guy and

42:46 we're not in bracelets, meaning handcuffs.

42:48 Um, and they said it doesn't matter.

42:50 We want you to check.

42:52 So we, we didn't know it.

42:54 I didn't know it, but we found out what their kind of MO was for checking people out that

42:58 night.

42:59 I go in and granted I'm wired to the hill.

43:02 I have a video audio recording device.

43:04 I have an audio recording device.

43:06 I've got a transmitter and I go into the clubhouse and I'm cracking jokes like normal.

43:11 So for the listeners that don't know, at least at this chapter, the way it worked was if you're

43:15 not a patch member, you can't touch the door and the door of that clubhouse had a metal

43:20 bar, welded hooks, whatever they, big steel bar across it, still frame, bed bolts, heavily

43:26 fortified door, um, you can't touch the phone, but I could drink for free cause they respected

43:31 me and, and they liked me.

43:33 Um, so we're there and it comes to the point to where clothes line comes up to me and he

43:39 says, Hey, tech, they call me text.

43:41 That was my road name because I was from Texas and they, you know, you can't pick your nickname.

43:44 They pick it for you.

43:45 So he's like, Hey, text, you got a minute and I'm like, yeah, I'm supposed to be my boy

43:50 and he texted me to this one door that I'd never been in the clubhouse.

43:53 Uh, I've been in that clubhouse probably 20 plus times.

43:56 I, I've never been in this door that no, or even went opens the door as I, as he's walking

44:01 in from me, another outlaw comes in behind me, which of course, your spotty senses or

44:06 your, the Holy Spirit should be telling you, Hey, this is not good.

44:10 So we walked down into this very tight, dark stairwell, uh, you could call it a basement.

44:17 I'm more like a seller.

44:19 I mean, it's, it's a Northeastern home.

44:20 Uh, I couldn't even stay, I'm six, four, but I couldn't stand up straight.

44:24 Uh, it was that tight and he probably touched the wall on both sides.

44:28 So now you're starting to get that old crap moment.

44:31 And I did look for plastic that I saw a rope.

44:33 They had already brandished their weapons.

44:35 They're showing me they got guns, basically telling me you're not free to go.

44:38 Uh, the one outlaw that came in behind me is standing on the steps to keep me from leaving.

44:43 Um, and he strips us me, he tells me to write down my full name, my date of birth, phone

44:50 number, wife and kids.

44:52 And I actually said, I'm not going to tell you to write your kids names down.

44:55 He said, not like we couldn't find out who they are.

44:57 Um, and, uh, they start checking me for a wire.

45:02 Um, but because of that adrenaline dump and that old crap moment, uh, if anybody's ever

45:08 had it, like, if you've ever been in a car wreck, things just slow down.

45:11 Right?

45:12 So it feels like it's 10 minutes and not only been 30 seconds, you know, or minutes seem

45:16 like hours.

45:18 You get auditory exclusion, everything's going, whoosh, whoosh, real slow, time dilation,

45:23 your eyes are clicking like frames.

45:25 You're like, Oh, you can, you can feel your heartbeat, your hamstrings get rubbery, all

45:29 that stuff.

45:30 I forgot my middle name.

45:32 I'm trying to write down my name.

45:34 And as I told you earlier, I know who it is.

45:36 It's me.

45:37 I created the thing, but because of the, the stress, uh, and me knowing what could potentially

45:44 get ready to happen, um, I forgot my middle name.

45:48 And then I, you know, I'm going through the roller decks in my head.

45:51 I'm, I'm doing distraction techniques, keeping talking to them, trying to figure out what's

45:55 going on.

45:56 And, uh, I basically, I took off my jacket.

46:00 I took off how many layers of shirts I had on, I don't know, it was cold.

46:04 Uh, I took my boots off and then I pulled my pants and underwear down around my ankles.

46:10 So I'm standing there naked pretty much.

46:12 Uh, and they check me out and he doesn't find anything.

46:18 And again, I'm telling this a little fast, but I'm, I'm crapping my pants at this point.

46:23 I joke about it, but I was scared.

46:26 I mean, I didn't know.

46:27 I mean, if they, if they found it, would they beat me up?

46:29 Would they kill me?

46:30 I don't know.

46:31 Again, I don't see plastic on the floor.

46:33 Um, so I think I'm done and we kind of laugh a little bit and then he grabs a piece of

46:40 clothing that I'd taken off and without giving away where it's stuff was at, but I, and that

46:45 piece of clothing was a recording device and I'm watching him just work his fingers over

46:51 it and need it, you know, and, and I don't, again, I don't even know how to do it, but

46:55 if you hear the recording or watch the video, there's an audible sigh for me as I'm watching

46:59 this dude, uh, go through my clothing and you hear me just go, uh, cause I'm like doing

47:08 it out loud. I don't even know. And he kind of looks right at it and doesn't find it.

47:15 And I've been teaching that stuff since like 2008, um, and people always ask, man, what

47:21 would you have done or what would you have said if he found it?

47:25 So when he grabbed that piece of clothing, the first thing he said was cause he was kind

47:28 of lightening up to this is supposed to be my boy clothesline.

47:32 He's kind of like, Oh, he's like, Hey, I'm not going to find anything in here.

47:35 And I don't want to write like some naked pictures of my old lady and we kind of giggle.

47:39 So my first response, if he would have said, what is this? I would have probably said,

47:44 I don't know if some naked pictures of your old lady just to try to buy some time. Um,

47:48 but the only other thing I had to say, Kyle was, and I remember it like it was yesterday,

47:53 I would have said the gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent and I can walk out of here and we

47:59 can see each other in court or all hell is going to break loose. Um, but the issue with

48:03 that would have been on my part. It would have been a bluff. And the reason is, is because

48:09 to my knowledge, my cover team could never really hear me inside that clubhouse. Um,

48:15 because, you know, I mean, again, we're talking like 2006 to eight somewhere in there, clearly

48:21 technology is way better now than it was then. Um, but they couldn't hear me. So to me, that

48:28 would have been a bluff. So I'll make it out of there. This very scary moment. I'm on a

48:33 complete adrenaline high. Um, and then let's just fast forward to the end of the evening,

48:39 which could have been four or five in the morning. Who knows? And I'm meeting the case

48:43 team to pass off at an undisclosed location to pass off my recording equipment. And what

48:48 I find out is the two guys that were part of the case team, uh, Sergeant Higginbottom,

48:54 which everybody called Higgie from Massachusetts State Troopers and Detective Joe Cummings from

48:59 Brockton PD were first on shift and something in that original, uh, interaction with Joe

49:06 dogs, they picked up. They're like, something's not right. And they had actually pulled close

49:11 enough and they heard everything. So here's two senior, very skilled, uh, investigators.

49:18 Luckily, they've gotten to know my baseline. But again, if I played the recording for you,

49:24 you're going to hear my voice is a heck of a lot higher than it is right now. You're

49:27 going to hear that my throat's tight. I'm even talking through my nose because I'm panicking.

49:32 And, um, they had listened to all that and they had suited up, bested up, and they had

49:39 been in that clubhouse before and they kind of knew that the door was heavily fortified.

49:43 Their plan was to drive the minivan they were in into the cinder block wall next to the

49:47 door. In other words, easier to breach the wall around the door than the door. Um, it

49:54 was a plan, right? And I, and what I found out is they heard everything. They had radioed

49:59 back to Boston, said, Hey, they got Scott in the basement. They're stripping him. And

50:02 of course I'm wired to the hill. So everybody else from Boston that's working that night

50:06 is coming blue lights and siren down the highway. And, uh, and, uh, I say this is kind

50:13 of comical, but it's, uh, it's just my sense of humor. But my buddy, who was the case agent,

50:18 Tim Quinn, he told me he's like, uh, he's like, man, when I was coming down that highway,

50:22 it was blue lights and sirens. He goes, I felt like I was in there with you and I looked

50:27 at him and I said, I looked at him and I went, you weren't you weren't man. I was looking

50:33 for any friendly face that I could find in that, that gum dark. Oh, but here's, here's

50:39 one for the faith base. Right. Yeah. At that time, I went a newlywed, but we were young

50:45 in our marriage. Me and my wife, we had two daughters. Uh, my youngest daughter maybe

50:50 been like one at that time. I don't know. So it's common now, everybody knows usually

50:56 what a burner phone is, but in other words, you go buy a phone, you pay by the minute.

50:59 It has nothing attached to it. So I bought one so that my wife would have a phone that

51:04 I could call her for my undercover phone. Oh, right. Cause I, it's operational security.

51:09 You don't want your, you don't want any of your undercover stuff contacting anything while

51:13 enforcement or real life stuff. Um, so every night, no matter what time it was five in

51:19 the morning, seven in the morning, I would call her and say, Hey, I'm done. I'm on my

51:23 way back to the hotel. I'm just going to go to sleep. I'll call you when I, when I get

51:26 up. Sometimes we talk for a little bit. Most of the time is like, I love you. I'll talk

51:31 to you later by that night. Kyle, when I called her, um, the first thing she said was, is

51:36 are you okay? And I said, yeah, why? And she said, I don't know. She said, honey, I,

51:43 it's such and such time this night. I was driving around with the girls in McAllen, Texas and

51:48 she got, she said, I got this overwhelming feeling and I pulled over on the side of the

51:53 road and started praying. She started praying for me and I mashed it up and it's, it, when

51:58 she got that feeling and she pulled over to pray for me, I was in the basement getting

52:02 stripped at gunpoint. Scott, the number, well, first of all, as I was reading in the book,

52:07 my palms got sweaty in here and you retell it right now. My palms have gotten a little

52:11 bit clammy and sweaty as well. Like the, but the number of times I've heard stories like

52:15 that where someone in the middle of the night wakes up and they, they just immediately get

52:20 this overwhelming sense. I need to pray for somebody and like they're absolutely in it

52:23 in those moments. It's absolutely incredible. I do want to kind of go a little bit deeper

52:28 on the faith element because there are going to be, there is some confusion for people

52:32 that haven't really thought through this very much. It's like, wait, how can you be a Christian

52:35 in your entire job, be lying all day every day? But then you ask the same person, like

52:39 if you were a, you know, a German hiding Jews under your floorboards in your house, would

52:45 you tell the Nazi officer or the SS officer? Yes, I'm hiding Jews under the floor. Of

52:49 course you wouldn't because the, the, the ethic of protecting human life, image bearers

52:55 of God is above the, those other ethics in that moment, right? But again, you are betraying

53:02 people. You are doing things that are a biblical, things that are outside of the Bible. And

53:07 you're also trying to maintain faith and we don't have time to get into it. But I mean,

53:10 you crashed at one point, like you said, most people would just call it like burnout. You

53:14 absolutely burned completely out. You do talk about this faith based community that you

53:19 always had. You always had kind of this small group community. Again, guys, that's why it's

53:22 so important to cultivate those relationships because you got to make those deposits because

53:26 you never know when you're going to need to take some withdrawals. But how, how does somebody

53:30 seek Christ and, and, you know, commune with the, the God creator, the creator God of

53:36 the universe while doing this type of work, which doesn't just change your personality

53:41 and your clothing. It could, I mean, it almost feels like it can change you on a soul level.

53:45 You know what I mean? Definitely. I mean, think of, just think of the law enforcement

53:48 officers that work crimes against children and have to look at those pictures and videos.

53:52 I've talked to some of those guys and they're like, and I asked them, like, how long do

53:56 guys make it? And they're like, usually they make it about six months. And I was talking

53:59 to a guy that was in like year four or five. And it's just, I don't want to be dramatic

54:04 here or play, you know, play with this. But you look in their eyes and it's just like

54:07 something's missing. It's just like they've just been crushed all day long because her

54:11 job is to watch videos of men raping children so that they could get some sort of an intel

54:17 so that they can find the perpetrator. I mean, it's just absolutely stunning.

54:20 Yeah, it's, it's pretty sick. A couple of things. What you ask. First of all, if I was

54:29 a strict Southern Baptist straightforward walk of the chalk line, I wouldn't ever be able

54:38 to infiltrate these groups. There's no way. I mean, they would, first of all, I would

54:42 never even been in that bar, right? When I I love the fact that you said burnout, I should

54:48 have called it that actually. But I got to a point after a three year period of my life,

54:54 I did wait too much. I stopped taking care of myself and I met my threshold for that

54:59 time of the year that day, whatever that three year period, I met my threshold and I was burned

55:04 out. And I had panic attack. I was having all kinds of issues. I've gotten so stressed

55:14 that I didn't even realize I was only breathing in my chest. Like I rarely filled my stomach

55:18 up with air. All my breath was like right here, which is not good. But when I got humbled

55:26 and I got smacked down, I, you know, I believe and I will the story after story throughout

55:35 the Bible, you get put in some rough situations. The Lord puts you there to maybe make you come

55:41 closer to him, to maybe make you realize certain things. And I'll tell you what I wrestled

55:46 with. I started seeing a counselor, a Christian counselor. I kept the journal. I was trying

55:54 to figure out what it was. Again, I'm very transparent. And I was like, here's the truth.

55:59 Here's what I'm feeling. Am I crazy? Am I losing my mind? Am I having to take a nervous breakdown?

56:04 I want to know you guys have the tools in your box fix me or tell me what's wrong. But

56:10 I remember praying a lot. And I was really wrestling with the fact of how I was going

56:18 to get back to being me or kind of who I was and remain humble to God. And I was really

56:24 wrestling with it because I mean, I was beat down. I mean, I was, I was like beat down,

56:29 beat down. And it turned out I had some PTSD from something that happened earlier in my

56:33 life. And as most everybody does, right? But I just remember praying about it and wrestling

56:41 with it and wrestling with it and saying, man, I may never, I may never get back. You know,

56:46 and then one day while I was in conversation with the Lord, it hit me like a brick in the

56:51 face. And it was this, I would have never been able to do the things I had done. If he

56:58 didn't bless me with what he'd bless me with, I would have never even been there. I wouldn't

57:04 have the skills that I have. And I'm like, okay, now I'm starting to see a pitcher. He

57:09 put me here to glorify him to get closer to him. And I can get back to being a maybe

57:17 if undercover is in his plan for me, I'll be back doing more undercovers. I'll be back

57:23 being a great case agent, putting bad people in jail, SWAT tactics, you name it. And it

57:29 really, really helped me. But again, you mentioned small groups. And there, I can't tell you

57:33 when we were in McCallen, me and my wife were officially baptized as adults by our own choice,

57:40 right? And we had a great small group. We called them life groups down there. But man,

57:47 and even when I got to Tennessee, same thing, I've been in some things and it's just something

57:53 so powerful. And for non-believers, they're not going to get it, you know, but to sit

57:59 in a chair. And even it's this embarrassing at first, you're like, Oh, man, no, I'm playing

58:03 big league. I'm a tough guy. I don't need people to put their hands on me and pray for

58:08 me. That's bull. You need it. And to be sitting in a chair in the middle of a room and your

58:13 small group coming lay hands on you and pray over you. I'm telling you, Cal, when I get

58:18 up, I could do that. I mean, I'm telling my age, but I could do the old cool leg guy.

58:21 I'll run right through a wall. You know, well, I, I think you're, you're hitting on something

58:27 that a lot of guys again, we get this idea that the lone wolf thing is like the thing

58:31 we should be looking for, but it's like, Hey, uh, watching nature show, what happens to

58:36 lone wolves, they die alone. Like they, they get put out, even if they used to be the alpha,

58:42 they get put out of the pack and they die by themselves. They either get, you know, uh,

58:46 taken out by another animal or they starve to death or freeze to death. Okay. Does that

58:50 sound like fun? Does that sound like something that you need to do? But here's the other

58:53 things, Scott. You're talking about, you know, you know, all good things come from the Lord

58:58 and we see that they're out scripture, but I've been put on this planet to equipment to

59:01 push back darkness. Okay. So I have had to expose myself to some incredibly dark areas

59:08 of humanity so that I could help guys recognize darkness when they see it so that they can

59:14 push it back. You can't push back darkness just by randomly pushing your palms out, uh,

59:19 into ether, you have to have a specific thing that you are pushing back. And so what that

59:23 requires of some people is exposing themselves to those things. And you can't get through

59:29 that and keep your soul and maintain your faith unless God has equipped you to do that, right?

59:35 So I'm not saying that that people should do and expose themselves to the things that

59:38 I expose myself to, but I've been given a mandate, right? But if God gives you a mandate, he gives

59:43 you the ability to walk through that mandate, he will give you the strength. Like that's

59:47 the whole game. He's not going to give you a mandate and give you no ability to accomplish

59:51 it. Right. And so I think that's where a lot of guys miss it. And so speaking of darkness,

59:56 obviously kind of the crux of the entire book, because it is the subtitles, how I went undercover

1:00:00 to expose America's Nazis. Okay. So Nazis, neo Nazis, white supremacists, accelerationists,

1:00:06 that that's a really a through point of what we're seeing here. But I do have to read literally

1:00:12 the funniest quote of the entire book, because as I'm sitting here on the floor of my studio,

1:00:16 I do most of my prep reading books, I literally laughed out loud. Okay. So I got to read this quote

1:00:20 here. In the pitch black darkness, I walked back to my car to get my gear so I could finally start

1:00:26 playing because you're about to, you know, play guitar at this event. I went through what, what

1:00:30 had just happened, starting to worry about the bureaucracy and questions I may get asked. Did I

1:00:35 have the right approvals for that ceremony? What had just happened? Then it hit me. I think I just

1:00:41 joined the joined the damn clan. Yep. I just joined the clan. And so here you are having this

1:00:46 realization all at once as you're walking to your vehicle, holy crap, I just joined the KKK. And I

1:00:52 just start busting out laughing because like, you would think like, okay, you would know what

1:00:57 you just done. But we've all had that moment where we're like, wait a minute, wait a minute,

1:01:01 did I just do the thing that I absolutely clearly just did? Holy crap, I just did. But it's like

1:01:06 the end of the whip where it just doesn't hit you until the very, very end. Now you obviously

1:01:10 spend some time in the book speaking on the KKK. I do want to spend a little bit more time talking

1:01:14 about acceleration is, but you got to tell us about how you got into the KKK. I mean, come on,

1:01:19 Scott. Well, oddly enough, this section of the KKK had a hotline. I mean,

1:01:26 I know this was years ago, but it's like they literally had a 1 800 number. Hey, call this

1:01:34 not that long ago. Yeah, it's not that long ago. Yeah, you called and old John Jack answers the

1:01:40 phone. And it turns out John Jack ended up being the club, which is basically the chaplain

1:01:46 for the for the clan. They got their own Bible man, the Cloran. But it's if you're in the clan,

1:01:55 every, every phonetic sound that's a cup is now okay. It doesn't matter. You know, I would spell

1:02:02 my name Scott with SKOTT. You know, we there was a case team that was already investigating the

1:02:09 clan in Alabama. And I called the hotline and I'm talking to them. And, you know, I had a back

1:02:15 story that was believable. And I vetted it as you should. I mean, I don't need to bluff anything,

1:02:22 but long, long and short of it is I'm like, man, I'm an old biker. It was this rally. I don't know

1:02:27 about it. I've never been to one. You guys like, I was immune. I mean, is that like bars? Is there

1:02:31 booths? Is there merchandise? You know, dancing music? And he said, he said to me, he goes, well,

1:02:38 now Scott, I ain't gonna lie to you. I had a band lined up. He said, but the singer just got

1:02:44 locked up and said, Jill, I don't know what the hell I'm gonna do. And I said, and I said,

1:02:48 really? Did I mention that I'm a singer and a guitar player and a musician? And he's like, no.

1:02:53 And I said, well, let me do this. I said, how about I just bring my acoustic, my PA system.

1:02:59 And if I get there, you know, I come out by my car, I'll strum a couple of tunes. If you think I

1:03:05 suck, no harm, no foul, we'll put it back in the back of the car and, you know, it'd be a day.

1:03:09 He said, oh, man, it's gonna be awesome. So I ended up playing music. But some of the funny

1:03:14 things on that one, I just remember being there. And I learned there's a lot of history in the

1:03:19 clan, and you have to study it to get to join the clan. You get naturalized, but then you've got to

1:03:25 you've got to take a K Uno test, a K duo test. And anyway, I pass those tests.

1:03:31 But it's a lot of history there. But one of the things was they had like this 30 foot cross,

1:03:37 it was steel, and you wrap it in burlap, and then you put steel twine or whatever around it to hold

1:03:43 the burlap, soak it in diesel fuel, which they call clan cologne, because there's really no way to

1:03:48 stand that cross up without it getting on you. So they call it clan cologne. And I remember asking,

1:03:54 asking the club, I said, hey, is it going to be a cross burning the night? And he's like,

1:04:01 now Scott, it's not a cross burning. That'd be sacrilegious. And I'm like, oh, and he goes,

1:04:07 it's a cross lighting. He said, it signifies the light of Jesus Christ coming down into the world

1:04:13 and driving the darkness out. And I'm like, Oh, okay. So Jesus was just a white guy. I got it.

1:04:20 All right, of course, cool. Not a Middle Eastern Jew. That would make any sense.

1:04:24 No way at all, man. So yeah, that in that case kind of went a ride, you know, a source in the case

1:04:31 agent kind of crap the bed, you know, nothing, nothing ever happened. But I did play two rallies

1:04:36 there out in the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere in the middle of Alabama.

1:04:40 And Scott, how many people have that on the resume? I mean, I think you should put that on a business

1:04:44 card, man, former clan concert guy, dude. Yeah, I think that kind of works out for you, but

1:04:49 where you really, so that kind of, you know, wedded your appetite for for that whole thing,

1:04:53 the white supremacy side. But there's there's another thing that I want you to get into,

1:04:57 because I do want to talk about acceleration is how they're different. Because when people

1:05:00 think about white supremacy, they normally think about dorks and robes, you know,

1:05:04 lighting up crosses as a word. But I want to read this quote from the book. In 23 years,

1:05:09 I was at this point at 23 years undercover work that I have done, I've never had to burn Bibles

1:05:14 or set fire to an American flag. I'd dance your never been with a group of people who stole a goat

1:05:20 and sacrificed it at a pagan ritual, then drank its blood. I did all that in just three days with

1:05:27 the base. And so a lot of people are not going to be very familiar with the base. But I think

1:05:31 the base could be one of those groups that could be in the acceleration is category. And so

1:05:37 acceleration is should not be seen in the same way as racial separatists or white supremacists or

1:05:44 people that just think, you know, black people aren't technically human beings, or, you know,

1:05:48 we shouldn't integrate the schools and any of that stuff that people think about when they think

1:05:52 of the KKK. So how about we start with you telling us what exactly is an acceleration is group right

1:05:58 now? And then let's go into talking a little bit more about the base. Okay. So this is what we

1:06:05 learned what I learned going into these groups. An accelerationist is essentially this. They

1:06:12 don't believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society

1:06:17 is going to collapse either on its own or from man-made events. And they want to speed it up

1:06:21 hence accelerate. There is a book called siege that was written by James Mason, a long time

1:06:27 white supremacist. He created Adam Waffen. And that was kind of like the main acceleration is group.

1:06:36 And then the base comes around. The base was kind of like an umbrella group. So pretty much

1:06:42 anybody that I met in the base was also a member of some other white supremacist neo-Nazi group.

1:06:47 And there was actually members of Adam Waffen that were in the base as well. So if you hear

1:06:53 siege culture, siege mentality, it's all like that book, which is basically a bunch of articles

1:06:58 that he put together. But I mean, he like, they get to more of, in the accelerationist view,

1:07:05 they're looking at more guerrilla warfare. In other words, they do not, they don't care about

1:07:09 doing the Charlottesville standing out there with signs and screaming racial slurs. And

1:07:14 they say that does no good. You're doing nothing. Plus, you're making yourself an easy target.

1:07:20 We want to do things like poison water systems, take down power grids, derail trains, murder,

1:07:26 you know, stuff like that. And the accelerationist group, the base that I infiltrated,

1:07:31 pretty much everybody was pagan. There's a, there's a long line of white supremacy that

1:07:38 used, they call it Christian identity, not to confuse being a Christ follower. They call it

1:07:44 Christian identity. And that was back in the Reverend Butler, Red Ray Fair area nation days.

1:07:49 They take that and they take the, they take the story of the Garden of Eden. And it's kind of the

1:07:55 same story. It's still Adam and Eve. It's still Cain and Abel. It's still a serpent. It's still

1:08:00 fruit of the forbidden tree, except the fruit of the forbidden tree is now a sexual act with the

1:08:08 serpent, which was a man of color, aka Satan. And they say that the offspring of the sexual

1:08:16 contact or sexual intercourse with the demon, Satan was, the offspring was Cain. And that is

1:08:23 what they call the mud race all the way down, but the offspring between Adam and Eve was able,

1:08:27 and that's the pure white race. So that's a heck of a twist, but you start seeing a lot more paganism.

1:08:32 So you get like Norse mythology or whatever. So you see that, but I mean, you saw that

1:08:39 with Hitler too. He was, he was big in the Norse mythology. But I will tell you this, at most,

1:08:45 at least within the last couple of years, I don't have my finger right on the pulse in this last year

1:08:51 so much, but the accelerations groups, if you scratch the surface enough and you start looking,

1:08:58 somewhere you're probably going to find in that group that there's a member of order of nine

1:09:02 angles or some other groups like that, which are heavily satanic white supremacy groups.

1:09:07 I mean, they post some horrific stuff on these dark web kind of apps. And I mean, it's like

1:09:13 child mutilation, stuff like that, a lot of rape, things like that. But that's what we kind of,

1:09:19 that's what we kind of found when I got in the base.

1:09:21 And so the interesting thing about that is I feel like there was around the time that

1:09:28 Antifa and Black Lives Matter was destroying the country back in 2020 after George Floyd died

1:09:33 in police custody. Two billion dollars worth of damage, people were killed, like police

1:09:37 precincts were taken over all these different things. It seemed like the media and the political

1:09:42 narrative at the time, because obviously the Biden administration was in power was that, okay,

1:09:48 it's not, we don't have to worry about these people. We need to worry about domestic terrorism

1:09:52 coming specifically from white supremacists. And they loved using the example of Dylan roof,

1:09:56 who you talk about in the book, who is basically worshiped by a lot of these groups.

1:10:00 But I got to say from someone who doesn't do this all day, every day, it seemed like that threat

1:10:05 was basically like a distraction like, Hey, look over here, not to say that it doesn't exist,

1:10:10 but to pretend like, Hey, there's literally a building on fire over here right now, but you want

1:10:15 me to worry about some guys that are gathering, you know, in the bushes, you know, passing around

1:10:20 these, these different stories. And then there's the obvious things where there were like,

1:10:24 clearly feds that were showing up and doing these, we're going to hold flags and walk down to the

1:10:29 national mall and things like that. And then all of a sudden, Cash Patel takes over the FBI and

1:10:33 these groups just don't exist anymore. And so there's a lot of like, I know we're getting to some,

1:10:39 you know, itchy territory for a lot of people because there's a lot of people that are like,

1:10:43 wait, I don't think we're focusing on the right things, but these groups do exist,

1:10:46 but they're obviously not flying planes into buildings. So kind of help me unravel this a

1:10:50 little bit because just being a civvy, I'm just like, I'm not really worried about these dorks

1:10:56 doing things and getting into the water supply, not saying that we shouldn't watch them. It shouldn't

1:10:59 pay attention and shouldn't infiltrate, try to stop them. But I just don't know that it's the

1:11:03 threat that I should be worried about. If that makes sense. Sure. That's bad. We can. We can

1:11:09 spend hours on it. We can spend hours on it. You make a very good point. And from the inside,

1:11:20 by the end of my career, I was like the domestic terrorism guy in East Tennessee. But I was also

1:11:27 the undercover coordinator. We were running undercover ops and they were all kind of bouncing off

1:11:32 the domestic terrorism. So that's what we saw. You can also tie that to why I started working

1:11:37 that stuff. I mean, we kind of were moving away from biker gang stuff. And it was really becoming

1:11:43 more prominent to see this domestic terrorism threat. And my skill set fit there. You make a

1:11:49 very good point, though, that when all those buildings were being set on fire and police

1:11:55 departments and courthouses might have been taken over and whatnot. What were we doing law enforcement

1:12:01 wise? I can tell you from personal experience that I come back as a case agent, I go, Hey,

1:12:06 I tell my boss at the time, I'm like, Hey, I just left, you know, this county. I'm sitting down

1:12:12 with him. I said, I might have a Black Lives Matter case, you know. And my boss, I remember

1:12:19 him going, Oh, and I go, Oh, and he goes, yeah, headquarters really looks at those really closely.

1:12:25 I said, as they should every case, I said, I don't care what I'm colorblind, man, if you're

1:12:30 breaking the law, I mean, if you just came in and reported it, I'm like, Hey, you know,

1:12:35 let's work this. So you got a good argument there. But for me, my skill set led me to these things.

1:12:42 Now to counter some of the stuff that you were, you said, you see, and you were thinking,

1:12:47 these groups are there. And we do need to worry about them. Because that's what always happens,

1:12:51 right? We look back at the gang phenomenon when it started really growing in the 80s like that,

1:12:56 that kind of street gang thing. You'd have somebody show up and happen in my county. And I was one

1:13:00 of the idiots too. There's like eight, the Crips. Okay, boy, you need to go back to California.

1:13:05 They know Crips in South Carolina. Well, guess what? About two months later, Crips everywhere,

1:13:09 because there was one and they started a whole new thing. This, this was coming on our radar,

1:13:15 because you got to remember, well, I say you got to remember as if you know, there's a lot of

1:13:20 people out there that do not know the darkness that is on this planet. And so there's, there's like

1:13:27 discord, 4chan, 8chan, 12chan, 3ma, riot, anything like that. And a lot of these people that are

1:13:36 up to nefarious things wanting to do bad acts. I'm not saying that everybody on there is that way,

1:13:43 but there are groups like whites only, 14 words. And you get into these telegram chats and

1:13:50 tear away all this other stuff. And it's just white supremacy. And again, from the law enforcement

1:13:57 side, we're sitting there and you're looking at thousands upon thousands of, I mean, just

1:14:02 some of the most crude, evil things you can say about somebody that's not white or that are not

1:14:11 Anglo. Maybe they, they, they, they cannot stand the Jewish people. And, but out of all of those,

1:14:19 in America, we have a constitution. You have First Amendment, freedom of speech. You can walk

1:14:24 out in the street and say, I hate all insert whatever racial slur you want. You can say,

1:14:29 I hope all insert racial slur die. That's not illegal. But how do we know which one of those

1:14:35 thousands, if any, are planning to do something really bad? And that's, that's how the base came

1:14:41 on our radar. And because they were, there were some people that were spewing some crazy stuff,

1:14:45 our world working partners, like UK, Australia, they were seeing members of the base. And they

1:14:50 were like, Hey, it looks like this is kind of coming out of the United States. And we all started

1:14:54 working it. Well, and you talk about in the book, there were some people that y'all caught,

1:14:58 that when y'all caught them, they were like, I'm so glad y'all caught me, because it was almost

1:15:03 like they were being compelled by a dark force, but let's just call it what it is, a satanic force

1:15:08 to do something negative, right? To do something where they take human life. And I remember growing

1:15:13 up in law in Oklahoma, kind of a rough city in Southwest Oklahoma, when I was, you know,

1:15:17 high school, 2002, 2003, 2004, the gangs were just kind of funny, like they would fight each other,

1:15:22 but they weren't, you know, doing like big stuff. But towards my senior year, I was like,

1:15:27 wait a minute, like, because there were a lot of different Crip sets, Hovers, that was really big

1:15:32 in our town. And the gangs didn't just start fighting. They, they started shooting each other.

1:15:36 And then they started like running girls and running drugs and doing a whole lot more stuff.

1:15:40 And it all kind of happened there on the back end, where it's just like, yeah, it's all fun and

1:15:45 games. It's all funny until until it's not until it turns in a different way. But man,

1:15:49 we've gone everywhere in this conversation. Let's go ahead and put a bow on it. My biggest thing,

1:15:53 as I was reading your book, Scott was, what about your safety now? Because people have long

1:15:59 memories, okay? And you put some people away for a very, very long time. But some of the people you

1:16:03 put away are already out there. And here you are writing a book with your face on it, with your name

1:16:08 on it, right? And you don't exactly make yourself super hard to find. And I know you're a capable

1:16:13 guy, you understand weapons systems, you understand protection, and all the different things.

1:16:17 But what about your safety now? And I guess what does life look like now that you, you've been

1:16:22 retired for a few years, and now you're just trying to operate in the world?

1:16:26 I was going to be, I was going to use my stupid sense of hearing good. Wait a minute, I didn't

1:16:31 think about that. Oh, no, yeah, I know you thought about it. I'm like, wait, dad, come

1:16:37 it, shoot, take my face off the book right now. I look, probably the easiest way to explain it

1:16:45 is this in the criminal world, even as a cop, or as a case agent, you arrest people, you put

1:16:51 people in jail all the time, you may run into them again. Again, that propensity for violence,

1:16:56 what's that retaliation? For me personally, my best defense is a good offense. I just go and

1:17:01 approach it. I remember I came from a local law enforcement level. And if you got threatened at

1:17:07 a local level, the county is not going to take money out of their budget and move you to a different

1:17:11 county. But when you get in the FBI, if you got a threat, or you feel threatened, once you hit that

1:17:16 threat button, headquarters is coming and you're going to get moved. And you don't have a choice

1:17:21 of where you're going. Sometimes they move you and you didn't even hit the button, but they come in

1:17:25 and move you. But in the criminal world, all these undercovers, with the exception of a couple that

1:17:31 were classified, once I may have been arrested with you, you may not know it's me, but at some

1:17:38 point you're going to sit down with your defense attorney and you're going to get what we call

1:17:42 discovery, which is supposed to be everything that we have built in the case against you,

1:17:46 including my notes, including text messages that I may have sent back and forth about a target.

1:17:53 So they're going to be sitting with their attorney and they're going to hear the recording and

1:17:56 they're going to know that I was the undercover. They may not have known my last name was pain.

1:18:00 And that's just kind of the way it is. I bought into the threat thing once or twice and I was like,

1:18:08 man, I may have to move. And then really, it was when I was sitting at church, you know, and I'm

1:18:13 sitting at church and I'm like, wait a minute, this is my town. Now that I'm, I know that they're

1:18:17 arrested and this case is taken down, I'm overt now for that section. I'm not going back there ever

1:18:22 again to work undercover. They all know. And essentially, I just don't live in fear. I mean,

1:18:29 I'm not fear of the Lord. Yeah, but I mean, I don't walk around on eggshells, but I don't walk

1:18:35 around with a blind eye either. I mean, there's only one way in and out of my where I live,

1:18:41 you got to pass two of my pastors to get to me. I'm on the hill. Me personally, I'm just, you know,

1:18:50 it doesn't bother me that much. My, my wife and kids, yeah, I don't want them concerned or worried,

1:18:58 but my wife coined this term. And man, I wish I'd have thought about it and to put in the book

1:19:03 or she would have thought about it to put in the book. But I always talk about undercover,

1:19:08 we're talking undercover, you were undercover, you were undercover. And then one day she goes,

1:19:12 yeah, but the entire time you were under his cover. And I was like,

1:19:17 holy cow, man, that is unbelievable. That is absolutely right. So that's, that's kind of,

1:19:24 you can't live in fear. And again, especially if you're in law enforcement, I mean, you can do

1:19:31 things. I mean, don't be stupid. But do you know how hard it is to like erase yourself? I mean,

1:19:35 in this day and age, like when we built my home, I would have had to not have my name anywhere on

1:19:40 it, not be anywhere on my wife's Facebook. Yeah, I was just, you know, and again, like you said

1:19:46 earlier, I made friends with a lot of these people. These people still called me after they were arrested,

1:19:51 drunk down me. Hey, Scott, is she boy? I know you just doing your job. I love you, brother.

1:19:58 And I'm like, I love you too, man. There's nothing. I mean, I don't, I don't hate you. I mean,

1:20:03 I've told so many people that I've arrested over the years, I'll sit down with them. I'm like,

1:20:06 I'm not saying, I think you're a bad person. I'm not saying I disagree with what you did.

1:20:11 I'm just saying you're an adult. You chose to break the law and you got caught. So here we are.

1:20:16 So here we are. Well, hey, man, we've gone everywhere in this conversation. This went about

1:20:21 as spectacularly as I thought it was going to go. But that's all for me. Is there anything else you

1:20:24 want to get off your chest? Oh, man. Well, I mean, you know, in the time we haven't wanted, yeah,

1:20:32 stop hating. Yeah, we'll do our best. It's too much energy and it's not rewarding. Love, man.

1:20:37 Love. No, just keep spreading knowledge. Keep spreading knowledge. But for this,

1:20:42 for this listening crowd, normally I don't get to speak quite like this, especially if I'm in

1:20:46 a instructor for an organization, you know, you can't like, you can't preach. You know,

1:20:52 sometimes I'll be getting out of a car like we're doing tactical stuff and I'll be crawling out

1:20:56 of a beat up car and I might say, help me, baby Jesus. I say, I mean, or, Allah or Satan, Odin,

1:21:02 whatever you think is, man, whoever can help me. Yeah, I know. But for this crowd, man, just

1:21:07 I said it Monday when I tell it, I said, if you don't have faith, I'm not preaching to you. But

1:21:13 if you're doing this and you're out there on your own, you better believe in something.

1:21:16 All right, Scott, I appreciate you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, brother.

1:21:19 There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Scott Payne, but before I let you go,

1:21:23 we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life Remission is equipping

1:21:26 men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.

1:21:30 So I've got a link to where you can pick up your copy of code name pale horse guys. It's a fantastic

1:21:35 book. Go on the show notes and check it out. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever

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1:21:42 If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an email to info

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1:21:55 your way. Just go to www dot undonton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for

1:22:01 allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua,

1:22:05 which is off their self titled debut album on face down records. The links are in the description.

1:22:10 I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual,

1:22:16 mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.

1:22:40 You