[Music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. >> Vinky, I got a funny story to start. Yeah, I got a funny story. So guy comes up to me with this beautiful family after church and he's like, "We're from Dylan, South Carolina." I was like, "It sounds like it, right?" So I' I've heard I've heard the accent before. >> And so like they have a motocross ministry. >> And so what I did not know is that motocross is like a Sunday thing. Like people do motocross on Sundays, but you're supposed to be spending time with the Lord. So this family decides, you know, we're going to start doing stuff. And so, uh, the reason why I got this hat that says Jesus family moto right there is because this family's like, "We know you like black shirts. we brought you a shirt shirt from our ministry. I'm like, "Oh, that's great." So, I tuck it under my sleeve and we take a picture and all that. And so, I run into your office and I'm like, "Well, this I've already sweat through two shirts today because this is our fifth podcast. I'll just throw this shirt on." And I undo it. It is a large, >> a youth large and it's like comically small. And I'm like, "Oh, no. I told the people I would wear this on the podcast. >> You should." >> I took off run. Okay. Be like up here or something like that. We don't want to scare the children. >> When in Rome, >> well, I could take off running. Luckily, they're still hanging out next to you. And I come over there and the wife's like, "Oh, good. I got to have another shirt in my purse." Pulls that out. Youth large, baby. And I was just like, "All right. It's just not meant to be." But I was just like, "Man, I want to like give them a shout out." I noticed the guy was wearing this hat. I just go, "Give me your hat." And he's just like, "Oh, okay." I'm like, "Yeah, I'll wear it on I'll wear it on the podcast. I'm not giving it back, though." He's like, "Yeah, yeah. I just started wearing it today." So, shout out to those guys from Dylan, South Carolina. Can I check them out? M >> we said just before we started that there's just there's there was too many good things that we we would have to go about three and a half hours >> Yeah. >> to cover it all. But thank you, Pastor Phil. >> Praise God. >> That was incredible. Tell me, Pastor, how did you guys meet? Where did you find this guy? >> Uh I got asked to speak at a men's event uh at his church in in Kansas City, Missouri, Abundant Life. And I went I didn't know him at all. And then we met for lunch or breakfast or something. And honestly, they were stuck. They were just at a place of kind of plateau and and and um I don't know. I don't always just volunteer my opinions upon people. I just felt one of those spiritg guided like can I tell you what I think? >> Mhm. >> And just said uh this is what I think you should do. And we And then the other thing is dude Phil didn't know anybody. He didn't have any friends. I mean, he had local friends. He didn't have any pastor friends, you know, like pretty much everybody I bring on here are my friends that I've got all over the country that run, you know, God has their hand on. I'm like, "Dude, you got to get around some of my guys." And so, um, Larry Osborne and I have a cohort of pastors that that run some some churches that God's doing big things in. And >> I just invited him around and started inviting all my buddies. And then we hunted together a bunch and >> that's it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I literally went to bed a cop, woke up a pastor in March of 2000. So, I really didn't know anybody. >> Yeah. >> You know, I'd never been to seminary, had no network historically. So, I just put my hand on the plow and uh started working. So, um my best friends today, honestly, in ministry, this man right here introduced me to. >> I'm so grateful. And uh it was 2019 and he did a men's event for us and I was kind of lamenting because we hit a lid and I don't I don't deal good with that. I mean I just you know Yeah. >> Um you go through seasons in ministry you stay at something long enough 25 years you got to revitalize something you revitalize. We're kind of that moment. And I remember Joby says something well he says well don't panic till you launch a campus >> right >> and we did launched our first campus launched a campus every year for the last 5 years and >> let's go >> everything's been up and to the right and Joby 11:22 we've learned so much when I say leaders are lifetime leaders guys we're learning so much from 11:22 I'm so grateful Joby thank you >> yeah man well I need to learn more Bible versesh >> is that from your independent fundamentalist background Oh man, >> probably all those sword drills when I was little. >> Oh yeah, I've done a sword drill. There's there's a one of the favorite uh saturated messages over the years is a guy named Ray Cortiz. We talk about it a lot and he his message is you only believe half the gospel and there's a whole thing with it. But when you started talking about unbelieving believers >> and you said enough faith to get out of Egypt, but not enough faith to get in the promised land, I was like, boy, you better start preaching. So, what >> what's that look like? I mean, and that's kind Doesn't that blow your mind a little bit? I mean, like, what's that look like to live halfway there? >> It's like most Southerners, quite honestly. Like, they believe Jesus for heaven, but not life. They think an eternal life happens when you die, but he doesn't rule and reign in your life right this second. >> I mean, that that picture of them, >> they're they're freed slaves, but not walking in the promised land. I mean, I never really thought about that as a just a picture of the life >> not surrendered that the life committed but not consecrated. I mean, dude. >> Yeah. I I think that is probably a picture of most Christians sitting in churches across America today. Um they then they do, Joby. They think, well, you know, I I accept Jesus now. I get to go to heaven. And um you know, I'm just waiting to go to heaven, right? >> Might be 40 years till I die, but now I know Jesus. I get to go to heaven. and they miss everything in the middle, everything that could be >> because uh they they literally and I think uh it's it's a true though more unbelieving believer. You believe Jesus can get you into heaven. You don't think he can set you free from that addiction. >> You don't think he can help you walk away from that temptation. Uh you know, you you you you live in the wilderness of mediocrity, if not complete captivity. That's the irony. These guys had been liberated, >> but they lived for the next 40 years like they were still slaves. Yeah. You said you said they they tried to preserve their life and lost it. >> They did. >> You know, it sounds like something Jesus said. >> Yes. >> Now, it kind of brings me it brings up a theological question to me. Like, is there such thing as the fire? Is there such thing as the fire insurance Christian? Like, because doesn't a Christian have to bear fruit and grow? What do you think? >> Yeah. I mean, a lot of that's just timing. I mean, sanctification is a progressive timetaking thing. >> You know, and it's not how you start, how you end. >> Mhm. >> And um and you know, the thing with the fruit, there's also seasons of fruitfulness too. >> That's right. >> But I think there's a lot of people that are living dormant lives. >> Mhm. >> And they need to lean in for the for them to bear fruit. If that makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Agreed. God, that's I mean maybe another way to say what you do, which is try to help the unbelieving believer become more of a believing believer. >> Well, that's where I like one of my least favorite words in the English lexicon is nuance. Oh, this is a nuance thing. There's a lot of gray area here. It's like, well, I feel like there's a lot of black and white. There's a lot of yes, no, and there's a lot of binary. And you have a lot of people that love the squishy middle. And the thing is is the squishy middle is where you go to die. Like that's not a place of action. That's not a place of movement. And gosh, you talked about it because commitment, that's what we need. We need commitment out of our soldiers. We need commitment out of our employees. We need commitment, commitment, commitment. And then when you're like, the problem with the modern church is there. It's full of committed Christians. I was like, I kept thinking that you were misspeaking tonight, but it's just that I'm stupid and slow. And I was like, oh, okay, I get what he's saying. >> I hope you got it eventually. >> No, I did get it eventually. I got there eventually. You know, public school. So it's u one of those things that whenever you were talking about consecration it's just like oh that is a completely different thing. >> And so it's kind of a derivative when I talk about predecision and so people that struggle to exercise it's because they they decide the next morning when their alarm goes off whether or not they're going to do it right and so they're warm in their bed they're chilling out. They're they they're underreovered. You know they're they think they need to take care of themselves this day and so they just hit the snooze button. Right? But the decision to work out tomorrow isn't made tomorrow. It's made like 10 years ago, right? This is just what I do. And so you've you're killing parts of yourself that will kill you, right? And so it's easy to look at it from a exercise perspective or maybe a mental development perspective, but for Christians, you're right. It's what I talk about all the time, country music, theology, right? So I grew up in Oklahoma. You know, my parents went to church when they were kids. I was baptized as a kid. When my parents vote, they vote Republican. We listen to '90s country music. God's pro all those things. So you get to go to heaven. And it's just like that's I mean that's just not in here though, >> right? You think about the difference between commitment and consecration. Think about all the things that people are committed to plus Jesus. The problem is they're committed to a lot of things and Jesus doesn't want to be just another commitment in an already overcommitted life. >> Yeah. >> And that's why there's so much consistent inconsistency in people's Christianity >> because it's a commitment. It comes and goes. It es and flows. We're consecration. You think about I heard an interview years ago with one of the men of Normandy. That's how long ago it was. And the question they asked him, how how is it that some men when they go into combat, they fight with such tenacity, ferocity, like just fearless, and other men in combat, they freeze up. Y >> and his what he said was this, you literally die ahead of time. you resign your life ahead of time. You just come to terms with the fact that you're dead already. >> So once you've died, you got nothing left to hang on to. >> Right. >> And uh that's the I think that that is how the Christian life is meant to be lived. >> Uh once you've given it all away, you've got nothing left to lose. >> Yeah. You said dead men, what' you say? You said dead men aren't scared of anything. >> Dead men aren't scared of anything >> because you're already dead. >> Right. >> Right. I've talked to a lot of spec ops guys that they were like they knew they were going to die. They're going out every night on capture kill missions, right? Way behind enemy lines. Like it's just it might be their day where they go across an IED where they breach the wrong door and there's a charge on the other side or you know they there's a bullet with their name on it and it's just like that's when you talk about putting your yes on the table. These men put their yes on their table to defend this country and they just don't know what the question is yet, right? And so they just don't know what's going to be required of them today. But gosh, if we approached our Christian walk in that way, if we approached ourselves as dead people, right? Like it I mean it would just change everything I feel like. >> Yeah. >> You said I love to ask more about this. You said the crucifixion happened one time in history, but to make it happen daily, it's it's when how you live that out. Talk a little bit about those differences. >> So So we all have a positional reality and a practical reality. positionally in Christ, we have victory already. >> Practically, it doesn't feel like it sometimes, >> right? >> So, the positional reality is we were crucified in Christ. We were crucified with him. And now Paul says, "I die daily." So, as you do it daily, over and over again, it's not a one and done. >> Mhm. >> Positionally, you're dead already. Practically, you have to do it daily. That's how your practical reality, your positional reality becomes one and the same experientially. >> Mhm. >> Now you're living the resurrected life, >> right? >> You're living in the power of the resurrection on a daily basis uh because you have chosen to die again. It's same thing getting out of bed at 5 in the morning >> to go torture yourself uh and work out. You you have to die to self in that moment. >> You have to decide I'm living for something greater than the moment I'm in right now. Mhm. >> that there's something worth it on the other side. >> Yeah. >> I'm thinking when Martin Luther nailed the 95 thesis on the wall of Vittenberg and the first one, the life of the Christian is that of daily repentance is another way >> of saying every single day of your life. >> You've got to turn from flesh, turn from the world, turn from the devil, turn towards Christ is what repentance is. >> The way Jesus would say, take up your cross, die to yourself, follow me. I mean, I he was saying the same thing. >> Exactly. that repentance was not a >> that it it had been turned into this like religious activity with loopholes that you could buy your way in and out of. Right? >> You could buy indulgences. You could stack up and then go on spring break and be like, "Oh, these don't count cuz I've prepaid for these sins." And he's like, "Time out. You guys are just making up stuff now." That the life of the Christian is that of daily repentance. >> Yeah. And we're talking about now justification, the first stage of salvation. Really, we're talking about sanctification. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Yeah. >> Justification. Jesus died to deliver you from sin's penalty. Sanctification. You die to be delivered from sin's power. >> That's where that daily repentance comes in. You don't repent of your sin one time. Now you get to go to heaven. >> It's not that's how a lot of people approach their salvation. This is a oneand done. >> Now I just wait to die and go to heaven. This is something you do over and over again. >> Yeah. And when you were talking about you can't manage your flesh >> has to be crucified, I was just like, whoa. Yo, like cuz that was one of those things to where it's just we think, you know, when you say like the worst thing, what's what a cop say where it's like the guy says, I got this. >> Yeah. The worst thing words a man can say is I got this. >> Yeah. And so it's like you've got that flesh that you think that you can keep keep under wraps. Right. Chandler said this at the Axe 29 conference last year where he was talking about the person that has a pet lion. Yeah. And then one day the lion remembers I'm an apex predator. Yeah. Right. That's your sin. >> Yes. >> And the problem with that lion is you think it's a pet so you keep feeding it. Yes. >> Right. And then you don't realize that one of the days it's going to just completely consume you. It just hasn't done it yet. And so it's just, you know, gosh, I mean it's cuz people think about, okay, I need to stop cussing so much and I need to stop, you know, checking out the waitress as much as I do. And it's it's all just about like, oh, I'm just going to manage this. I'm going to manage. >> That's the power of self. Like, I I can I can white knuckle this self-determination. I mean, it really was my life in the early days, man. I was determined to do better, try harder. >> And there's no amount of self-determination. It's like the flesh fighting the flesh. >> Y >> and you can succeed in the world. >> Your will will cave in. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But in this world where you can climb a corporate ladder, you can be the captain of the team. you I mean for a season you can beat your body and like hunker down and white knuckles some things and the problem is is it it's so counterintuitive to the Christian life >> you know because everything else every sport you've ever played is you want to get better try harder >> and this thing is you want to get better die to yourself >> what I loved about cuz you know I can't help it when I I can't just listen to preaching. I got to listen at it. You know what I mean? >> Oh, sure. I understand. >> And you're killing it. All the I want You wrote it all down. I all the self-t talk. I want to I want to like go over a couple of those like fear dies when self dies, pride dies when self dies, you know those things. All right. >> But the then what I thought was brilliant and this is what most preachers don't do. Okay. It's one thing to talk about that and theologically or even philosophically people like, "Okay, I see what you're doing. That makes sense." But what in the heck does that have to do with my life? Like, how do I do that? And then you went >> example 101. My marriage year 14. Let me sh Now, let me give you a physical, practical, tangible, and also vulnerable example. Yeah, >> Joby, I I was talking to Phil right before we we walked back here and like I'm not super poetic in my language and I don't really have a Pentecostal background, so I don't think there's one or two demons behind every bush. It's just kind of one of those things, but the the room is completely silent. >> Mhm. >> And then you stopped then you started talking about marriage and it got quieter. I don't know how that's possible, but it was like >> I sense the same thing. It's like I could hear buzzing in the of the oxygen in the room and all the >> I sense the same thing from up there. >> Yeah. >> And uh I I think what happened is man, it was hitting close to home now. >> Mhm. >> You know, it's one thing to get real theological. >> Yeah. >> Um and theoretical, okay, about dying to self, uh but all of a sudden, man, I really sense, man, there's a lot of marriages that are going through the same thing we did. We we go through the same stuff cuz we're all made of the same stuff. Mhm. >> Well, a lot of people don't realize is, you know, your pastors are just made of the same stuff you are. >> And here I am at this time. I'm a pastor by now. >> And uh and our our marriage was dying a death by a thousand cuts. And the devil doesn't care if he takes you out by a hatchet in a day, single blow. More marriages die slowly over time. Death by a thousand cuts. That's what I've been doing to my marriage. Man, there's so much more, too. um you know the the backstory to all of that because it was after that night that I really became very introspective. I never went and saw a LPC counselor, but I went and saw the wonderful counselor. And I started to connect some dots that I'd never connected before. Like why? You know, I I you know, I I'm so confident in all these areas of life when it comes to my wife, I felt weak. And it wasn't it wasn't Christa, I promise you. It was something in me, >> right? >> And and uh you I started connecting some dots I hadn't thought about. I had not thought about what happened on the back of that bus for many years. >> Yet, what happened on the back of that bus sent me down in my adolescence. I put in motion, man. I started pursuing girls before I had hair on my legs, literally, right? And all the things that would come with that, one relationship after another. These tiny bopa relationships, you know, that we think are just part of growing up. They they deeply embed something on our soul. that we take into marriage. I tell, you know, if if people should get the book and read the first part of the Song of Solomon devotion that I did, I tell people, listen, disobedience while dating is what leads to dysfunction in your marriage. I lived it. I know what I'm talking about. >> Good. And so, a lot of that was what was going on for 14 years that I didn't understand. >> Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you guys struggle with getting a consistent workout routine. So, wherever you get to, whether that's the Globo Gym or your home gym or even like a parking lot somewhere, you get there and then you don't know what to do. 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Go to mountaintuff.com, that's mtnuff.com, and enter the code Kyle when you sign up for a monthly plan to receive your first month free after your 14-day free trial. So, for guys that aren't good at math, that is 6 weeks free to make sure this app is for you, and I'm sure it will be. That is 6 weeks free on the best-in-class physical and mental training app in the world. Stop wasting time. It's time to get real fitness results and let my friends at mountaintuff guide the way. Again, go to mtnuff. That's mountain.com promo code Kyle. Well, the thing that was so impactful when you were talking about that, Phil, is you said, "I got the wife that I wanted when God got the man that he wanted." >> And I was just like, "Oh my gosh, can you stop punching everyone in the face? Give me a chance to breathe here." Because like there there's so many men >> that >> were quiet lmeners, right? So, we'll we'll resent our wives in our heads or we'll resent one of our co-workers in our heads or we want to resent these people and it just grows and grows and grows inside of us, but we also got some of that Western American machismo thing. I can do my own thing. I can pull myself up by my bootstraps. And then in your marriage, like again, I thought you had you misspoke, but it's like your your marriage only dies when two people choose to live. And the the context of that guys, if you haven't heard the message yet, go back and listen to it. But it's literally like you have to die to self together in order to live as >> to give life to your marriage, to give life to each other, two people have to die to self. And the moment you choose to live, now you're living for self. And now you're taking life from your spouse instead of giving life to your spouse. >> And that's what I had done over and over again. >> And that's Ephesians 5:21. Submit to one another reverence for Christ. >> Yes. And how many Christian marriages are are there and the man's thinking, "Well, I'm not out. I'm not cheating. I'm not looking at porn. I'm not out partying. I'm not doing and and yet still giving the me. I would have said all along, I'm an Ephesians 5:25 kind of husband. I'm a great husband. I'm a godly husband. I would die for my wife. I'd take a bullet for my wife." Well, that's easy. >> Yeah. You're just not for Yeah. Taking a bullet for your wife, who wouldn't do that? But >> but dying for your wife means living for her >> every day. every day instead of living for shame. >> I mean, you see people online, it's kind of like a meme now, but it's like, "Oh, you would die for your family. Would you work out for your family? Would you read the Bible for your family? >> Would you get rid of that addiction for your family? Oh, you're not willing to do that. Okay, you're just full of it, right?" Because it's it's very poetic and it's very war movie to be like, I would sacrifice myself. Like, you know, the boy goes down so the girl can go free. All that. This isn't a Tim McGraw song, okay? It's like you have to live this out every single day. >> Yeah. Well, will you do the dishes for your wife? >> Yeah. >> Will you go to the mall with your wife? Will you give him a day on playing golf? Better stop right there, guys. Okay. >> It could it could get worse from there. But for you, like the the practicality of living that out. I I want to even tease that out even further because, you know, it's one thing to kind of stay in the world of the philosophical and I think all of us can kind of enjoy that and you can bandandy ideas about or something like that. But for the men and women listening to this, and I mean my my audience, your audience is split joy, but mine's 95% male, 5% gangster female, like how do you practically live that out if someone's like, "Okay, I'm done managing sin. Okay, I'm done being a committed Christian. It's time to con consecrate." And there, but then you got highly conscientious people. They need some boxes to check. And so it's like there are some boxes that need to be checked. So how would you advise that somebody if you were discipling them, this is what you should what you should do. Here are some next steps. Most people like in the heat of temptation, you have a besetting sin. You want to be free so bad. Um, you white knuckle it. You're going to grit your teeth. Self-determination. And if you're really a disciplined person, that works for a while, but eventually the will will always cave in. So for me, this was like a major epiphany many, many years ago. Most of us try to suppress our sin. Like I mentioned the dandelion, you cannot suppress your sin. >> It's not a life of suppression. It's a life of submission in the heat of temptation. What is to make your body a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable. You literally present your body to Jesus. You cannot present your body to sin while you're presenting it to him. In that moment of temptation will either submit to sin or you will submit to him, but you can't submit to both at the same time. >> So the question is to what will you submit in that moment? >> Mhm. Um and that for me man in that moment like you choose for what will you you will you will either die to sin and live for him and that's where the power of the resurrection takes place. You have the power to walk away where before you would have stayed. >> Yeah. The the Puritans called it mortification and vivification that you got to kill sin or it'll be killing you. This is this is you know Hebrews 12. This is >> you got to put to death sin. and cast off anything that entangles and fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith. So, simultaneously, there's some stuff in your life. If you want to live the abundant life, you better go put a bullet in its head. Like, there's the pornography. You can't play with it, man. >> No, >> you got to kill it. Now, again, you can't just like white knuckle it forever or it'll get you. And so, then the way after you say, "These are some things I am cutting out." One of the quickest ways to do it is confess it out loud to other people. Mhm. >> Look at somebody and go, "Bro, here's my problem. I drink too much." Let's say this out loud. Shine light on whatever the thing is. It'll never be enough. Then the way the best way to keep dandelions from growing in your yard is feed the grass. Feed the grass. You got to uproot them. >> Mhm. >> But if you only uproot them, they'll come back. >> So you got to feed the grass. Healthy grass will choke out the weeds. >> So then that Jesus says, so John 15, so abide in me and I'll abide in you. Read that whole chapter on how to abide. And they're like, "Well, how do we do that?" He goes, "Abide in my word and I'll abide in you." That's it. So stir vivification. Do the things that stir your affections for the Lord. These are predecisions, Kyle. Your What are you got the something over something? You got six of them. One of them is standards over >> Yeah. standards over goals. >> Okay. This is it. So goals are I'm gonna read my Bible this many times a day. The standard is I'm going to be a godly man >> and I'm not. This is what godly men do. They read their Bible. They're in biblical fellowship. They confess sin. They repent. >> And if you get those things backwards, you have goals. And then what do you do when you achieve your goals? You're like, "So, what do I do next?" Okay. >> But standards are this is who God called me to be, redeemed me, called me, anointed, appointed me. Therefore, this is why I do these things and I don't do those things. So, Phil, imagine going to your wife, your lovely bride, who is fantastic, by the way. Um, and saying, "You know what, baby? I have a goal. My goal is to love you as Christ loved the church today. It's my goal." She would be like, "Oh, okay." Like, that's weird. And then you go to someone else. You know what my goal is? To not murder someone. That's my goal today. My goal is to not get angry and murder someone, pull them out of their car, and beat them to death on the highway. Like, that that doesn't make any sense. It's like what standard are we going to hold ourselves to as godly men, as godly women? It changes everything because your brain will change around something. A goal is temporary. You talked about, hey, commitments, they're cheap. Oh, I'm committed to this. Ah, the Jacks suck again. All right, I'm not committed to the to watching the team anymore. It's just so cheap. But if you have a biblical standard, like it changes everything. But I feel like, Phil, that that men aren't diving in. I mean, when you said get in the water so deep that you can't save yourself. >> Mhm. >> Whoa. Like, okay, because a lot of people love dipping their toe in because if you dip your toe in, you get to point to the toe, be like, "Look, my toe's wet, right?" Like, "Something's wet in here." But it's like, >> if you haven't dove in so far, like I had this thought like I my brain's kind of messed up. I thought like I was, you know, playing in the ocean with my son, like if I got to a dark place, I wonder how far I could swim before I gave up. >> Yeah. >> And but I would swim far enough to where I couldn't get back. A lot of guys think like that and they're just waiting for the day when they actually follow through with it. But it's like, man, that that's how we should we should go to the point to where it's there's no choice but to look up at Jesus and for him to steady. >> There's another oxymoron. I said unbelieving believer. Here's another one. Safe faith. There's no such thing as a safe faith. Uh faith can't be safe. Faith faith has to have a sense of this doesn't come with a guarantee. Um, I I can't fully see the outcome. >> It's going to feel risky. Uh, it it it demanded a risk. You know, when I turned into my wife that night for the first time, man, I didn't know what was going to happen. >> Mhm. >> Risk. >> It was risky, man. It felt vulnerable. Men don't like to feel vulnerable. We don't like to feel weak to admit. Look, we say all the time, I've heard it said this week, you want to be free, you got to get honest. >> The strength of sin is in its secrecy. Mhm. >> You want to disarm the enemy, the transparency. It's 1 John 1:7. If we walk in the light as see in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin. I'd never done that to my wife. And for the first time, I turned in and started to get honest about some things like, "Honey, I don't feel like I'm good enough for you." That's really part of what was going on all along. >> I don't feel like I can measure up. And so what happens is Satan creates a counterfeit reality that then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. >> Oh, >> it was becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy in my marriage. >> Uh until we disarmed the enemy through truth, transparency repentance. >> Yeah. >> Uh and man, I literally said, "I don't care if she hurts me." >> Yeah. >> I'm going to love her unconditionally with everything I have in me. You talked a lot about faith and you know I just thought when you were saying that I just thought what does it what does Hebrews say that faith is the assurance and so often we look for a an outside assurance for the faith but the scripture says no the faith is the the assurance it is the guarantee don't try to add to it yeah >> faith is the evidence of things unseen >> yeah and you're saying >> we're looking for evidence outside of faith. >> Correct. >> Yeah, that's good. >> Yeah, it's it's like it's cons it's contained inside of itself. >> All the promises of God are appropriated by faith in the word of God. >> So, a lot of them I say enough faith to get into heaven. We we believe what the Bible says about our sin, our need for salvation, that Jesus died and rose again. But do we believe what he says about every other area of our life? One time Dan Buckles at a he's one of our elders at one of our elderled prayers. He said, "I know you believe in God, but do you believe God?" And he was talking about some of the promises in the word. And I thought, "Bro, what a distinction." >> No doubt. >> No, you believe in God like Jesus died on the cross for your sins. Like you did that. >> Yeah. >> But do you believe God like that he is more than enough? that >> that his sheep hear his voice and follow him and do what he says and the voice of a stranger they will not follow. Do you believe that? >> Do you do you believe that he's a good dad and he only wants to give good gifts to his kids? So if he's not giving you something, it might be a scorpion and you you think you're asking for a fish and you're actually asking for something >> terrible that would kill you. >> Yeah. >> Do I know you believe God? Believe in God. But do you believe >> Do you believe he can resurrect your marriage? >> Right. and restore what's lost. >> So that's actually that exact >> uh circumstance is where the phrase in my life if the tomb is empty anything is possible. I'm talking to a couple guy's like, "Dude, I'm in an impossible marriage." I was like, "What do you mean impossible? You're a Christian. >> Y'all heard this before." I was like, "You believe Jesus came out of the grave?" And he's like, "Well, yeah, of course. That's the whole thing." I'm like, "Well, if the tomb is empty, anything is possible." And I'm like, "Huh?" >> Right. >> Mhm. Yeah, man. >> I literally wrote down your quote, Phil. God can resurrect whatever in your life that has died. And then right next to it, I said, "Do we actually believe that?" >> Right. Right. >> Because it it seems like a fundamental thing. Yeah. Middle Eastern Jewish construction worker, dead, raised back to life. Awesome. Ascended. Cool. All that stuff. >> Yeah. But my wife's never going to change. Yeah. But my kids are never going to come back. Like the the prodal will not return. Like I'm I'm not going to be able to kick this addiction. >> Yeah. >> And it's just like, man, you're fighting with, you know, sword of fire on one side and the other side you're throwing pencils at people. There's I didn't even share this tonight. I was going to, but man, he he gave me like 55 minutes, which was awesome. >> Let's go. >> But, uh, even then, some things I just didn't have time to say. So, Kadesh Barnea means wilderness sanctuary, and I think I shared that. I didn't come back to it, though. So, that the devil will allow you a wilderness sanctuary. Uh, he knows you're out of Egypt, that you're forgiven of your sin, that your home is heaven. He just wants to keep you from the promised land, sanctification. And he doesn't want you live in victory daily practically. So he'll give you a wilderness sanctuary. He'll he will give you a chance to make kind of a a peaceful coalition, >> right? >> Uh with your sin or just mediocrity, quiet resignation. And that's what the children of Israel did for 40 years. >> Yeah. That's the back half of screw tape letters, by the way. Because at one point he writes the screw tape. He's like, "Oh no, we lost our guy. He joined the other team." And he's like, "Okay, all right. Well, everything's not lost. we're going to lose him one day, but bog him down in politics >> and and convince him that his faith is a means to a political end. That'll bog him down. That that was a whole chapter. >> Then it's like, okay, well, no, no, no. Um, bog him down in his own self-righteousness. Get him so concerned about the things that he is he's doing and not doing that he forgets about the enemy. And in that, the enemy means God. Mhm. >> Then he's like, have him join a committee >> in the church and get really bogged down in the color of the carpet and that kind of thing. That's exactly it. Cuz if you are saved, the enemy can't do anything about your eternity. And so the last thing he wants you to do is like be on fire for the Lord. So the enemy himself might actually >> give you what we would think are blessings to pacify you to sleep so you are not awake to the eternal realities. >> This is what you were talking about. you were you got a guy coming on your show at some point that used to be in the church of Satan and he taugh that guy I mean you'll be able to say it better than me. That guy's testimony is Satan gave me influence over people that I had never had before. >> Yeah. So this is a guy named Michael Lehan. By the way, don't do what he did. And when I met him like 15 years ago, we're in this meeting. I don't even know what the meeting is for. We're all around this conference table. So go around. This guy's like, "Oh yeah, here this is my job. This is what I do." I'm like, "Oh, I'm like a 22 years old or something like that. I just graduated this, that, and the other thing." This guy's like, "Hey, um, you know, I'm a pastor and all that, but I used to be a practicing Satanist and I was arrested for uh being in Craig Rochelle's church with a gun and I was sent to kill him." >> I'm like, "Dude, you got to go first. You got to raise your hand first. You can't do that to all of us. We look like fools now." But um his story he wrote in a book called Ascent from Darkness >> and he talked about uh and he's coming back on the show cuz you know he his wife noticed my tattoos at church on Sunday and then he walked up. I'm like Michael Leehan he's like yeah and anyway he said like he describes the moment when Satan entered him like on a soul level and he started talking about the influence he was able to have on people. The influence he was able to have on women to bed them. the influence he was able to have on men to redirect their violent anger away from him and towards other people, all these things, right? >> And he would he was doing spiritual warfare. He would go into churches and put like the the satanic Bible in the pews, right? He would he would just do these different things. And I was talking to the pastor that went to his house the night he got saved, right? And this is not a sensational guy. He doesn't really, you know, do these big tales or whatever. And this is Craig Rochelle's number two. Uh, his name's Chris Beiel. He said, "Kyle, when I walked into the house," he wasn't telling me this on the show. He's just, you know, this is just a thing. He's like, "When I walked into the house, I I didn't understand oppression until the moment I walked in the house." He's like, "I could barely move. >> I walked in the house. It was like there was a an anvil on my chest when I walked in here. The the the demonic oppression was so thick you could grab a fistful of it out of the air." And cuz there were like four or five pastors there and they're talking to this guy. And imagine the war going on for this man's soul. For Michael Leehan's soul >> when he turned his life to Christ, they literally to a man were like like when you forget to breathe for a little bit or when you're underwater a little bit too long and you come up and it's just like >> wow. >> I mean what is that? And it's it's again you know we're in this moment where this week you want to talk about principalities and powers. There's a war going on that all of us are in. But like Eric Mataxa says, a lot of people in the church, committed Christians in the church Phil >> they're leaving powder for tomorrow's battle, but there may not be a battle tomorrow. Today might be the last one. >> Right. >> Just crazy. >> Yeah. >> Well, we're out of time, but I want to ask one more question. You, you know, so many illustrations, so many metaphors, and and one was on the other side of death, a big one. On the other side of death, there's a resurrection. the most the most uh the biggest example you gave was in your marriage. What are some other deaths that need to die that on the other side there could be a resurrection beyond what you can imagine that we could maybe leave some people with? >> You know, uh I mentioned specifically like in my case at one time it was just a captivity to alcohol. Like I I couldn't drink without getting drunk. That's that's in my idea at the time. That's the only reason it existed, right? So, and I, you know, that that merrygoround of constantly, yeah, you know, I'm sorry, God, I'll never do it again. I really meant it. >> But again, your will will cave in. If you're trying to do it through self-determination willpower you're fighting the flesh with the flesh. You know, for a lot of people, though, that's not it. It's negative emotion. They are completely captive to their emotions. Uh so you know we're really talking about now not submitting your body living sacrifice Romans 12:2 but rather the battle is in the mind. I mean this where the battleground happens. So you know it's guarding your heart and your mind your thoughts and emotions. It's 2 Corinthians 10 3-5. Though we walk in the flesh, we don't war according to the flesh. But the weapons of our warfare are not carnal or physical, but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds. >> Casting down arguments. Satan is always bringing arguments >> into our mind to argue against God. >> Casting down those arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Jesus Christ. This is where the warfare happens. Now watch this. Nowhere does Paul ever command us with our emotions. We can't command our emotions. >> You can't help your feel. What he says is command your thoughts because eventually what happens right thinking leads to right feeling. >> When you're feeling what is wrong, you think what is right. And this is how you you overcome worry, anxiety, >> a lot of depression, um a lot of bitterness, unforgiveness. If you lead with your emotions, you will forever be in captivity to your feelings. On the other hand, when you realize, I'm feeling what is wrong. You think what is right. And again, it's not one and done. This is the warfare. But eventually, when you put your faith in motion as opposed to living through the emotion, >> the feelings will follow. Mhm. >> I guarantee D, you told this amazing story tonight, >> dude. >> How did she get there? How do you forgive the man? >> Mhm. >> That killed your brother >> in a DUI. >> Cuz he's DUI. I guarantee this is the process. She had to choose. First, I'm going to live the crucified life. I will not allow my mind to live with that thought. I will crucify it. >> I will cast it out. She didn't maybe know what she was doing, but she was applying the cross to her thoughts. M and then what happens eventually right thoughts lead to right feelings. She actually was able to forgive him. >> Mhm. Love loved it. Love him on top of >> Yeah. I mean you could tell >> I got one um you have to die to trying to control the outcomes of your children in order for the resurrection of their own walk with Jesus. >> Now it's not quite as applicable like you got littles. >> Yeah. You actually control them or they'll go to the ocean. You got grown kids. You have no control. >> You have zero. >> Yep. >> At best, you got influence, >> right? >> You kind of got them in the middle. Mine are a little bit more mine are a little closer to you. >> Yeah. >> I was on a some dude, I'm the worst, have been the worst at trying to control the outcomes for my children from a >> from a pure-hearted place because I just want them to have the abundant life, >> right? And I was on a podcast with Charles Martin and he's just kind of he's not even talking to me. He's talking to whoever's we're talking to. And he says something to the effect of, "My job is not to control my kids. My job is just to try to help them hear the voice of Jesus and do the next thing that he says." >> And I repented, confessed to the Lord, repented, talked to Gretchen about it. I laid that thing down. And in that season, I have watched my son, the Lord, do a work in my son that I have been trying to manufacture and manipulate for 20 years of his whole life. >> Wow. >> So, he comes in, he's like, I I think I'm going to drop out of college. Bro, I'm just telling you, a couple of years ago, I like, you can't do that, man. >> Mhm. >> Right. >> We have degrees. We're smart. This is what we do. And then I was like, that's not my job. >> My job is not to tell him what God told him to do. >> My job is to help him hear from God. That's amazing. >> So today, we could not be more pleased cuz the brother is walking with the Lord. >> And he is. >> Mhm. >> And he's enrolled for fire school. Well, praise God for that. >> Then when he told me, I think God might be calling you my fireman. Then my mind jumped to the thing. The story I tell more than any other story is about him getting the nurses out of the car in the car wreck. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> I thought, you idiot. You with your manipulation, Dad, are trying to steer him in a direction different than where God's calling him. kindness of God to to allow you to make this connection. I did I've never heard you say this before, but the thing you're seeing now to the >> There's no doubt in my mind, dude. >> And you know the truth, that's been well the hardest thing in my life personally is uh is the seasons have come and gone like >> um to really I can surrender every part of my life to Jesus. I've learned to trust him with every part of my life. But when it comes to my kids, >> I got this >> man. I it's still hard for me to surrender. >> Watch this. Because there's nothing you love in this world more than you love your kids. >> And to trust God with your kids, he has those outcomes in his hands. Joey, man. Oh man. Oh man. I >> So yeah. So how about this man? Somebody. So on Wednesday before saturated start, he calls me. He's like, "Dad, you have to say something about Charlie Kurt." Like you you can't be one of the worship leaders. You lead this. This is what he's telling me on the phone. >> He were It's so funny on the org chart. We could not be further apart. you know, he's on staff right now here in working in operations and he's he gave me the best some of the best advice. He's like, "Dad, the church needs to hear from you on this." I was like, "All right, all right. I'm just telling you, if I was continuously trying to pull the strings in his life and manipulate his life for outcomes that I want." >> That's selfish. That is not death to self. Mhm. >> That is me being more This is me being more concerned about his last name than his first name. >> You know what I mean? >> Yeah. And that's when you lose what you need more than anything that you mentioned already. Influence. >> Yeah. So, that's one that's a practical application. And again, when they're little, man, I'm not saying you're just like let every kid like you got little guys, bro. You are you got very tight guard rails right now. But what you've got to think of and what you're in the middle of based on the age of your kids is planned emancipation and they're trained up and ready to to launch and leave and still lean on you for influence because they know you love them. >> Mhm. You >> that is a death to self. >> You let go of control while you grow in influence. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that is a death and a resurrection because I know your little boys love you, but they honestly they don't know anything else. You know what I mean? Like I watch them walk in my office and hug dad. And by the way, well done on training them to introduce themselves their names and shake hand or fist bump. I mean I I know they've been trained by you on that. All right. >> When they're 20 and choose to come walk in the office and give you a hug and say pray. That's a now that's a death because you had to lay down control and then there's a resurrection of an actual relationship with these people that you love so much. >> Yeah. And if you don't lay it down, not only do you lose control, but you also lose influence. >> Yeah. >> By trying to hang on. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's so there's a practical application that I thought of. >> Yeah. We're very biblical because we said branding and we're, you know, doing like Paul. Um, but I think I think secular people talk about like the flow or things that are unleash. I think that's what you're talking about. The power that's unleashed in surrender and in submission and in like that's seeing the power on the other side of it. It's just it's incredible. So, pastor, you want to say anything else or close us in prayer for >> Thank you, my friend. Um, like I said before, uh, I didn't I don't just invite you just because you're my friend. I got a bunch of friends. They ain't never been invited to preach because they don't preach good enough, quite honestly. But that's great. But dude, you I told John Tyson this last night. >> The way I think about this is I love these people that I get to serve and shepherd. >> And I bring you here as a gift to them. And so way to bring it. This will be a sermon that I listen to on repeat. >> Well, Joby, look, um it's a it's an honor to preach on any platform anytime. What a privilege God gives us. But I got to tell you, I'm so so grateful for the opportunity to preach at 11:22. Grateful, grateful, grateful. Thank you. >> Yeah. >> Father in heaven, uh may we lived the crucified life >> that we may walk in resurrection power. >> Amen. >> We pray in Jesus name. Amen. >> Amen. >> Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast or shoot me an email to info@undanton.life, that's info@undanton.life, follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [Music]