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I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
1:32
I read your book "The Explicit Gospels" in 2007, and I was one of those guys who I think
1:51
I could not have explained the gospel to a person.
1:54
I grew up in the church, could not have explained it, and every time the word was used, it was,
1:59
"We're going to talk about John 3 16," or it was before the word "tracked."
2:02
So thank you.
2:03
Oh, man.
2:04
I appreciate that.
2:05
You have had a huge impact on my life.
2:07
I think you, Dr. John Piper, the first re-appreciing I heard, you know what I mean?
2:14
I think that's why when I came to 11 22, I was like, "I'm home, baby," because you
2:18
had laid some serious groundwork.
2:20
So thank you.
2:21
And thank you for your message.
2:22
Appreciate that.
2:23
Yeah.
2:24
While we're rubbing each other down with "affirmation cream," do you miss any nice things about
2:29
YouTube?
2:30
No, no, no.
2:31
This is my kind of podcast.
2:32
Bro.
2:33
Yeah.
2:34
I mean, it's a cool thing in my life of getting to pass through this church.
2:37
A bunch of the people that I used to listen to and just get you over listening to, you
2:42
were top of the list, have become like really good friends of mine.
2:45
That being said, I tell people this, I've told you this, I tell people this all the time.
2:49
As good a preacher as you are, and I think you're the best in our generation, you're
2:53
a better dude.
2:54
Thanks, man.
2:55
That being said, you have had so much gospel influence over this church of 11 22, because
3:00
in 2012, when we planted, I didn't know anything about planting.
3:04
I Googled church planting, two primary websites came up, and I ain't throwing any shade on
3:11
anybody, but one was ark, and one was act 29.
3:13
The ark website, and there are many, many wonderful godly dudes in ark, but it was smoke
3:19
in a hand and a light, you know?
3:22
And the act went on when it just had a Bible.
3:25
And I was like, I saw my boy, Ryan Stone, I was like, let's do the Bible one.
3:29
And then I looked into it, right?
3:33
And I was like, Matt Chandler's in this.
3:35
That's the guy I've been listening to for you.
3:37
Here we are.
3:38
All these years later.
3:39
Right.
3:40
Right.
3:41
So your influence, I mean, it really has helped shape my gospel saturation and preaching.
3:50
And I love that.
3:51
Thanks.
3:52
So are you done being slobbered on?
3:53
Because can I join in?
3:54
Or is that like...
3:55
Oh, let's go.
3:56
Honestly, I think...
3:57
Sure.
3:58
I think only one person touched my leg while they were giving me the confidence.
4:02
And it was me and I'm the farthest away.
4:04
No.
4:05
It's too bad left here.
4:06
Hey, he said my name.
4:07
And he was like...
4:08
HV Charles at this podcast one time said, "The pastors that I know are not drunk on compliments
4:14
or starving for encouragement."
4:15
Yeah.
4:16
So as much as people think you just get encouragement all the time, I just don't think we can ever
4:24
encourage a brother enough in the gospel.
4:25
Yeah.
4:26
Like...
4:27
No, thank you.
4:28
Well, because there are a lot of people in my world that are maybe they've been really
4:34
jaded by the church for some of the things that you brought up tonight.
4:37
And so it's like they don't have a band of brothers or a foxhole or a...
4:40
They don't have a Mac here.
4:41
I don't have a King's table.
4:42
And so...
4:43
Or they've got issues with dad.
4:45
And so it's like they see their horrible earthly dad and they're like, "Well, this heavenly
4:48
dad is just going to be a diabolically worse version of that somehow."
4:52
But when you're trying to elucidate what is the gospel?
4:56
You can do it quickly or you really need to spend some time explaining it.
5:00
And so if I were to give anyone a single book that elucidates the gospel and doesn't get
5:06
away from the central point is the explicit gospel, I'm on the...
5:09
I've read it for all around the same time you did.
5:12
And the other book that I would suggest people now is this one run over by the grace train.
5:16
So I see those as bookends of the same thing that these things can live on the shelf together.
5:22
And the thing that is so interesting about the explicit gospel is it was released so long
5:26
ago and it just hasn't lost anything.
5:29
And so you and I talked about, okay, there may be some different sections or chapters that
5:33
maybe you could wish you could add to in our current cultural moment, almost 20 years down
5:37
the road how we would change it.
5:39
But also knowing how humble you are in the presence of people that are really impressed
5:45
by you.
5:46
Because when you have a unique job, you talk with a mic on your face and people just, even
5:50
if you're not cool, they think you're cool.
5:51
But like you're a...
5:52
Not that's not a dig, by the way.
5:53
No, I understand it with my giggles.
5:56
But why do you walk in to my jujitsu gym with my dudes, with my guys?
6:01
And you're just you, you're just a guy, you're just a blue belt on the mat, you're just
6:05
trying to get better.
6:06
It's there to fight.
6:07
And you spend the first few days of your sabbatical that your church gave you as a 20 year anniversary
6:12
present for being at TVC is to drive up to Oklahoma and try to get choked to death by
6:17
some killers and some guys that were in my foxhole with me.
6:20
It's like, there was no ego, there was no, I need special treatment is like, where can
6:24
I just amoeba into what this is happening?
6:26
And so knowing that these gospel messages are coming from guys like you, that just will
6:32
shirk the compliment, you'll accept it, but then you'll move on from it, you don't want
6:35
to live in it.
6:36
It's just, it's an awesome thing for me just to sit by and watch you guys do that.
6:39
Man, I love praise God.
6:40
Yeah, man.
6:41
Yeah, I ain't trying to touch any of it.
6:42
I don't, I really don't even understand my own trajectory in life or how I got here.
6:49
I mean, I look back on it and marvel at his grace, but yeah, I'm still tripping out that
6:55
this is my life.
6:56
Yeah.
6:57
We, we had a discussion earlier about our hand sizes and Pastor Joby has a great phrase
7:03
about palming a book of the Bible.
7:06
I think it was in our Roman series and a few years ago, you're like, I want you to be
7:09
able to palm the book of Romans and be able to just grip it and grasp it.
7:14
And while we're talking about the gospel and the explicit gospel, like, I think that's
7:18
what it helps me do, helps us do like, you can just grip it.
7:21
It's like the whole story.
7:22
Yeah.
7:23
I, I grab reading the Bible and it's like, you know, you commit to read the whole thing
7:26
and you get to about Leviticus in February, you know, like, do this is rough, you know,
7:31
and then you'd start over.
7:32
And so you, you don't see the connection between all of it.
7:35
And so your message tonight and so much of your ministry is about, hey, understand the
7:40
big picture.
7:41
And I love that so much.
7:42
So Pastor Matt and Pastor Joby, why does you, you said the gospel is not the door to the
7:48
house.
7:49
It's the whole house.
7:50
Yeah.
7:51
So talk about why that drives, that drives your whole ministry for how you preach, for
7:57
how you build your churches.
7:58
I know that about both of you.
7:59
So why?
8:00
Why is that?
8:01
Well, I think there's a tendency.
8:04
I don't think there's a tendency.
8:06
If you are paying attention while you're reading the Bible, remembrance is a significant issue.
8:13
I mean, it's something that really throughout, I mean, it starts in Deuteronomy really where
8:19
God's now established this people, He's given them the law, He's going to bless them and
8:24
they're going to be a kingdom of priests, they're going to show the world what it looks
8:28
like to live into the truth, beauty and goodness of God.
8:32
I mean, Deuteronomy 4, Deuteronomy 5, Deuteronomy 6, do not forget, don't forget the miracles,
8:39
don't forget my presence, don't forget I delivered you from the most powerful thing anyone in
8:45
the world had ever seen, whether it was Egypt as a nation or Egypt, even as a principality
8:50
in power in regards to dark spiritual forces, like I brought you out of this by the strength
8:56
of my mighty hand, don't forget, don't forget, don't forget, then you get to judges and they
9:01
forget and you get to, there's a tendency within the people of God to move away from
9:06
the God that's moving towards them and to forget His goodness and the gospel wants us
9:13
to drop anchor in it, for the gospel to not be this thing that happened to me three days
9:18
before my 18th birthday, but to be the very essence of life today that my intimacy with
9:25
Jesus today should be a growing intimacy that kicked off three days before my 18th birthday,
9:33
but I tried to allude to it today my experience as a pastor is that people will walk in shame,
9:41
they'll experience the good news of the gospel, they'll get into a church, they'll learn the
9:45
values of that church, they'll fall short of it and then they get duplicitous and if you're
9:50
duplicitous, you're moving from God, you're not moving towards Him and that's why I wanted to expand
9:55
tonight the understanding of what confession isn't just, "Oh man, I looked at porn again."
10:00
Confession leads to intimacy with God because it's telling the truth about where you are in a given
10:07
moment, it's moving towards the Lord with what's most true. I don't like my wife right now,
10:13
I'm really frustrated that when all said and done, I'm not going to have the money to do the things
10:18
that I want to do or I really want my kid to play more on varsity. Now, is the creator of the
10:27
universe really going to drill down at that level? Well, the creator of the universe wants to walk
10:33
intimately and powerfully with you and if that's what's on your heart, then you should be bringing
10:38
that to Him and talking with Him about that without feeling like, "I'm so disappointed in me,
10:44
I should be deeper water than this." And so, I think the moment you start creating that space,
10:50
you start to move yourself out from the essence or power of the Christian life, which is the gospel
10:56
itself. So, that's how I think it happens. That's why I want to keep just digging at it.
11:01
I think something that shaped me a lot in being around the x-29 crew and family that we run in
11:13
is somehow I missed out that in almost every epistle, it's a reminder to the Christians of the
11:21
gospel. This is why, around here, I can't get over to the gospel, we'll never graduate past the
11:27
gospel. But what I do find, Matt, that draws me to your preaching so much and that I want to be
11:35
like and hope I am, because we're around a lot of angry Calvinists, not a lot, but you know what I
11:40
mean. And they're not so these days. Yeah, no doubt. But the guy that starts with the
11:44
gravity and never leaves it. And so, even tonight, when you talked about the gospel,
11:48
thank you for starting in the right place, which is God's good design. You know, not... How the story
11:54
starts. A hundred percent. And you love people and you preach passionately about how much God
12:02
wants them. And there's a lot of people in their presentation of the gospel, missed the heart
12:10
of God. The heart of God is that we are His beloved. And if we could be loved, honestly,
12:17
most of the sin in our life would just disappear. If we knew that we were loved by the Almighty,
12:22
I am that I am. And there's a lot of like gospel preaching that it's not, it's just
12:28
railing on sin with no invitation that you're the beloved of Christ, that God wants you.
12:34
Yeah, the woman caught an adultery. He picks up her face. He looks at her and then says,
12:43
"Go and send no more." He doesn't... I mean, she's busted, exposed out in the open. And his first
12:51
words to her aren't, "Go and send no more." Like the Bible school, he walks over, he picks
12:56
up her face, he looks into her face and says, "Hey, has no one condemned you?"
13:02
It was such an intimate act, not in a sexual way. He can either do a text of the story,
13:06
but it's an intimate act to shut someone's face gently to lift their eyes and again,
13:11
going back to the best quote from this book, it's like, "I wonder if she heard the rocks fall."
13:14
I wonder if she heard the stones fall from these men that were about to chuck it at her. But you
13:18
made a couple of statements tonight that I think they're stumbling blocks for a lot of people,
13:22
but the statements were helpful. They're about 15 minutes apart. The first one was the gospel,
13:27
doesn't just save you, it keeps saving you. And then towards the end, you said, "How many of our sins
13:33
were future sins when Jesus died on the cross?" All of them. And so part of the issue where people
13:38
start looking at themselves, and so maybe it's the church camp phenomenon where you raise your hand,
13:42
you're a tear-filled mess, and then a couple of days later, you did the same sin that you're
13:46
doing before. No, I crap, I don't think it took. Or if you're surrounded by law and people that love
13:51
the concept of total depravity so much, they can't wait to tell the whole planet about it.
13:55
And so they forget about the sweetness of the gospel because they want it to be more barbed
14:00
and a little bit sharper. And just they think they have to make it stickier for some reason.
14:04
And so I think that that's helpful for people to realize that the gospel is not a thing that
14:09
happened. It's a thing that is happening, right? It's just continuing on into your future.
14:14
There's no, I don't know how you read the New Testament and land a different place than that.
14:20
And Joby brought it up, like Paul's constantly preaching the gospel. People already believed it,
14:26
right? And he's not even saying, "Hey, tell the lost people this." He's like, "Hey, hear me. You
14:31
guys." And Peter added stuff. Who for reasons to went down where he needed to be opposed to his
14:36
face. And it's like even him, the guy who walked with Jesus, had felt the need to add stuff.
14:40
Even you missed that sometimes in the gospels, it says Jesus told this to those who had believed
14:45
in him. You're like, "Wait, what? He's not calling out the bad guys here." Yeah, it sounds so dumb,
14:51
but the gospels for Christians. But in the right good desire to evangelize, I think sometimes our
15:00
evangelism is poor if it doesn't paint a picture of life with Christ that continues to move into the
15:06
feud. This is not a, what you're going to experience tonight is the rest of your life. It's not just a
15:13
moment. Now, you might be able to look back on this moment and be encouraged by the rest of your
15:18
life. I know that night he saved me. I mean, that's right. I mean, no matter what's come over the last
15:23
32 years, I know I can feel what God did on three days before my 18th birthday on that little swing
15:32
at Mary Harne Baylor. I know he saved me and I've thought back in harder seasons on that night in
15:38
great confidence. No, no, no. I know something changed to me fundamentally that night when just
15:45
emotion, although there was a lot, something shifted. I could see things I never could see before.
15:50
Well, I wanted to ask you both about the emotion piece. So I'm glad you brought that up. So I remember
15:55
the first time I really had doubts on my salvation. I had a guy that was a year or two older than me
16:00
in college that was kind of discipling me a little bit. And he's, he wanted to start with, okay, so
16:04
let's just make sure we're saved first. And I was like, man, I just don't know. And he goes,
16:09
Oh, and then he started showing me the gospels like, no, no, no, like the Hellfire and Brimstone
16:12
guy came when I was 15. And you know, hell sounded awful. And you know, earthquakes are on the rise
16:16
and volcanoes. And we got to get saved. And so it's like, no, I think it took, but I'm not quite
16:22
sure. But I think part of it is because we get swept up in emotionalism. And that was the point
16:27
I made to him is like, I don't feel the same way I did back then. I don't feel the same way when I
16:31
charged to the Christian bookstore with all the money I had to buy the most cool looking
16:35
extreme teenage male Bible type of thing. But for you guys, you, you create emotional experiences,
16:42
whether you try to or not with, with your preaching, the settings, the environments that you created
16:46
TBC in Church of 1122. So, so how can you assist people with being able to meet King Jesus without,
16:54
you know, hanging the anchor around their neck or that some point is going to come loose. And
16:59
it's like, Hey man, that was just emotionalism. Like you just, you just got, you got
17:03
riled up in the moment. It was kind of felt revivally, you raised your hand, you got dunked,
17:06
but it didn't take. Does that make sense? I think so. Say that again in a different way.
17:12
Essentially, how can you make sure that the emotionalism that you create in your,
17:16
your sermons and the responses that people give when they are emotional, that they don't,
17:20
they don't hang their hat on the emotion, but they can hang their hat on the truth that the
17:24
gospel is real and accounted for them? Yeah, well, certainly emotions are going to come
17:28
and go. And really, if I think back on the last 32 years of following Jesus, there's a
17:36
ton of emotion and there's also a lot of seasons where it's just me believing that what God said is
17:42
true. It's just me. And, and I, I think the Lord usually kicks off like to, to have
17:50
the Holy Spirit fill that space, I think is usually not always an emotional experience
17:58
that might not mean tears, that might mean joy, it might not mean that you'll get a sense that
18:03
something shifted in you. And that can come out in all sorts of different emotional ways,
18:09
but it's not the emotion of the moment that gives that credibility. It's what created the emotions.
18:20
If you're now, we can talk for a long time about manipulation and how to, how some, I mean,
18:27
because gosh, you go back and study the revivals and you know, Charles Finney had a guilt seat,
18:33
where you could, yeah, and yeah, you could sit with your lost friend and he would like point
18:39
to him and the sermon like, your friend will weep as you're burning in hell. You should, I mean,
18:44
that, I mean, there's some dark stuff out there, but I, we should knew that tomorrow. I mean,
18:48
you can't. I mean, I'll be at home between you and the Lord. So here's what I would say. When you
18:53
preach sound doctrine, you don't have to be afraid of emotion. Yeah. So Paul tells Timothy,
18:59
guard your life and your doctrine and be ready. There's going to be some guys that show up and
19:04
they're going to try to tickle ears. Well, you know the motivation behind what you're doing.
19:07
If you're trying to manufacture a moment because people will like it, that's very different than
19:16
emotion coming alongside of the proclamation of the gospel. Because it's emotional, dude. There's
19:23
no way, man, I'm at this girl and I, we were, Gretchen came and got me, said, can you complete
19:28
talk to this girl? She's young girls. I go out and say 18 year old girl, dude, she's trying to face
19:31
off. And so I start crying. I can't help it because she's saying she says, I have some, I've had some
19:39
serious mental health struggles and you preaching the gospels have kept me alive. And you know what
19:45
I mean? And I'm like, if you don't have emotion there, you also might need to check and see if
19:51
you're saved. Jesus cried at Lazarus's death. But when you hammer the gospel, when you're just
19:57
consistently hammering the gospel, you don't have to be afraid of loving the Lord of your God with
20:04
all your heart and soul and strength because you know you're preaching the truth so your mind's not
20:09
going to get lost with the emotionalism. And so I'm going to sound doctrine. Set you free from
20:16
having to worry about emotionless. Yeah, dude. Yeah. I like that, man. I just made it up. So
20:20
that's great. We should write that down next book. Make it a t-shirt. It's one of the reasons why I love
20:24
gospel preaching as I've come to this church as a listen to your preaching. It's, I grew up more
20:31
in a topical preaching style. And I think you mentioned the things in Paul's writings. You're like,
20:37
it was there the whole time. Like every time it was like, let me remind you of the gospel,
20:40
remind you of the gospel. You miss those things when people are just like, let's find a verse on
20:44
patience. It finds a verse on joy or temptation. So they go for that one. But I also really resonated
20:51
with what you said in your sermon about learning the code and having a duplicitous life. That was
20:57
my story. That was one of the reasons why I doubted my salvation so often because I'm like,
21:02
I know what's going on. I'm living this double life. And nobody else did. And nobody else did.
21:06
You know, but I was not being reassured from the pulpit every week that salvation was by grace
21:12
through faith in Christ alone. I started talking about this last night and I got to
21:19
figure this out. But I've just gone in this last week because I'm going to preach Ephesians 2 on
21:23
Sunday. We're called Christians three times in the New Testament. One of them is like making fun of
21:28
us. I think it's 216 times we're called in Christ. These are different things. Your sermon tonight
21:36
is look, bro, you're struggling. Okay. I got one question. Have you surrendered your life to Jesus?
21:41
Yes, I got really good news. He's in you. Yeah. And one of the most beautiful pictures is Romans 8.
21:47
Like the great eight is an incredible description of how the God, how the gospel has saved is saving
21:54
and one day will save you. Yep. That you're justified being sanctified and one day glorified.
21:58
And that's like one big fat train. And once that engine leaves, you know, the station,
22:04
you're going all the way to heaven. It's going. And it looks different in all of our lives.
22:09
I also so appreciate the confessional way in which you threw in there
22:16
and such were some of you. And then I got to say, and then I will steal some of that sometimes
22:21
because that's that's actually what's happening in the seat. Yeah. And there's too many preachers
22:26
that first of all, nobody ever sends anymore. They just struggle. You know, I'm like, hey man,
22:31
I'm just struggling. Like my brother, that's called a sin or struggles to sin or their only
22:35
struggle was during the Reagan administration. Yeah, it's not helpful. But it's right. And it's
22:41
not my story. So, oh my gosh, not my story. You have freed up a lot of preachers to be able to,
22:46
I mean, one of my favorite things that you say is the cross has outed us all. I say it all the time.
22:53
Yeah. And I'm just confessing. Yeah. Amen. And when we confess, when we confess,
22:59
holistic gospel confession is not simply confessing that you've sin, but you're also confessing that
23:05
the blood of Jesus has already saved it. And now I want to confess that I get to walk in the victory
23:10
and that sin doesn't have to define me because Jesus says it is finished.
23:14
Well, man, let's go back to what you preached at Acts 29, where you closed Acts 29. So,
23:19
you opened and you closed, right? And so, I mean, you said something to a derivative of it tonight,
23:24
which is if you were 90% known, you are completely unknown, right? And you're in a room full of
23:29
a captive audience of pastors, right? So, this is not normal flock talk. This is like,
23:34
we're talking to pastors here that are leading their own flocks. And, you know,
23:37
while I'll tell you up to talk about the line and things like that, I don't want to make your
23:40
point for you. So, because I think for people that haven't heard it, they need to.
23:43
Yeah. Well, I feel especially burdened for pastors in what we're talking about,
23:50
because I think one of the reasons you see them disqualify themselves or blow up or
23:58
kill themselves or die out is they feel stuck in this. Like, they started early and had tasted
24:05
some success and now they're standing in front of a thousand people and, man, who are they going to
24:10
tell that they've still got a porn issue or they've been taking their kids, Adderall or
24:17
Folklin or whatever, and now are, you know, taking it until it's gone. And then they,
24:22
so they're stuck and they don't know. And so they just bury it. And they're charismatic enough
24:30
or gifted enough that the church keeps growing and it keeps, but all the while they're stuck in that.
24:36
And I'm just like, Dad, come on. If we could kill that thing when it was small,
24:40
you wouldn't be feeling the weight you're feeling right now. And so I always tell the story,
24:47
of the when animals attack and there was a lion that attacked a woman and they interviewed the
24:53
owner of the lion afterwards. He's like, I can't believe it. I was just like, wait, what? What do
24:59
you mean? You can't believe it. It's an apex predator. Literally, it has no known enemy except
25:04
man. Like, how did you not know that this thing was going to grow up and eventually mall somewhere,
25:12
right? I mean, it's just like, are you kidding me? You had to have known, but you're under the
25:17
illusion of control. And so people who are stuck in perpetual sin are they're under the illusion of
25:24
control. I can control this thing. It's not going to get me. It's not going to destroy my life. Look,
25:30
I've had this thing since it was a small thing. I'm going to be the one man, the one woman
25:36
who their sin is not going to lead to destruction. I'm going to control it. I'm going to take this
25:41
thing to the grave and they pacify or tranquilize the line and they forget that that line has to be
25:48
killed or it might kill you. Here's the thing, man. I'm sitting on the front row. First of all,
25:53
I'm like, what is my life that I opened the conference, you close it and piper's in the middle?
25:59
Yeah. That's what I do now. It's stupid. I'm sitting on the front row like, oh, what is this?
26:04
So I've heard you do that talk multiple times. That is like God gave you that talk for pastors,
26:10
for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to run with it. Correct. So not, you got to get that stuff off
26:15
of you that entangles. Yeah. And I love not lay aside bad translation. That sounds like folding
26:21
laundry. Yeah. You got them. Okay. And the sin. Yeah. Now, here's the thing.
26:25
We could spend the rest of this time talking about brothers who have been in the room while
26:33
you're preaching that sermon. Absolutely. And some of them are dead now. And some of them had
26:39
dead marriages now. Yeah. And I mean, we know them. Yeah. They're like, we know them, know them.
26:45
Like I know you all know them. Yeah. And they were sitting in that room and thought,
26:49
no, I got this. Yeah. Because it was current, like while you were preaching at six, seven years,
26:56
it was going on. It was going on in their life. And they were a part of the thing. They were on
27:02
stage that week. Yeah. And the thing that you said, which is they're so used to saying it doesn't,
27:07
it's not for me that they turn. That's what I mean. They were like, I mean, somebody's watching it
27:11
right now. Somebody's watching this right now. Yeah. And they're just in the enemy. The essence
27:16
of sin is deceit. It just is like the essence of sin is deceit. Like I was doing this thing earlier
27:23
this week with a church that is down, it's in Texas and they had a horrific situation with
27:31
somebody on staff. I mean, dark, dark, did what they were supposed to do, did write by the victims,
27:36
did write by. And somebody was asking the question, like, how do you, like have you done anything new,
27:45
like in regards to policies and procedures to make sure this doesn't happen? And they kind of
27:49
hemmed in hard because you can't really answer the question because you can have all the policies
27:53
and procedures you want. If a guy wants to walk into seat, that he can be in four accountability
27:59
groups. But if he's not going to walk in the light, it doesn't matter because the essence of sin is
28:05
deceit. And if you're walking in sin, there's going to be this overwhelming whisper in your
28:14
heart and mind that you've got this and it's not as big of a deal. And you can wait a little bit
28:20
longer. You can, you know, the guys that I've got to like kind of do a, you know, after everything
28:27
with the thing was, let me just create a little distance from this and then I'll confess. So it's
28:34
not like this thing I'm actively doing. It's this thing I did back here. And so then they try to out
28:39
run it and it caught them. And it just, it's, we've been in this spirit. We just finished up a
28:47
nine week series on spiritual warfare and something that occurred to me, if the thief comes to only
28:55
kill still in destroy, he ain't trying to trip you up. He's not trying to like have a little hiccup.
28:59
It's not trying to have you bolt. He's trying to kill you. Rip your head off and brag about it. Okay.
29:04
And he doesn't care how he does it. Yeah. Like he doesn't, it doesn't matter what lure he uses.
29:09
Like if you're, when you're catching fish, do you really care how you're catching them? You
29:13
just want to catch them because you want to catch the fish. So whether it's pride or crushing shame
29:20
or lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, probably it does not matter to the enemy. He's just going
29:25
keep throwing those lures until your head's on a platter. Exactly. And I mean, one of the things
29:30
we screwed up really bad is Protestants. And I'm really pro-protestant, big glue to fame, all the
29:34
things, especially early on, the, the, the, the Protestant church was so anti-Catholic that it
29:41
threw out the baby with the bathwater on some of the things because we're like, we don't want to be
29:44
Catholic. So we don't have to confess. Yeah. Well, you took it a little far. Yeah. You don't have to
29:49
talk to the guy with the funny hat and the robe on, you know, down there in the pointy building,
29:52
because we have one mediator, but you can't just throw out all of James five,
29:56
because this is where freedom is. Like you can't be free until you learn to be honest. Yeah. And
30:03
the biggest thing, man, a feeling like you've got to hide something is it completely tears the
30:11
gospel down in your life because what you're doing is saying when Jesus says it is finished,
30:17
it didn't count for this. Yeah. Like the cross is not enough for me. Yeah. And I know right now,
30:22
there's men and women right now and they're so afraid of what they think they might lose. Yeah.
30:28
If they come clean to Christ and whoever else needs to hear it, and what they don't realize is
30:33
that their very lives are at stake. Yeah. And it's not worth it. Like our friends,
30:37
that they're losing their ministry was like the least of the things that they've ended up losing.
30:44
Gosh. Yeah. And it just doesn't, it doesn't have to be that way. I think that's the thing
30:53
where I can feel provoked in preaching is one for the lost person. I know that the
31:01
God of this age has blinded the minds of those who are perishing. So I feel this real angst for
31:06
the Holy Spirit to do what I know I can't do. There's no amount of emotional manipulation that
31:13
gives sight to the blind. Correct. That's a Holy Spirit thing that he needs to do. And then for
31:17
brothers and sisters, there's this whole life of victory and power and presence just sitting there
31:24
for them. Yeah. And I'm just like, Dad, come it. Will you frickin' pick it up? Yeah. Will you come
31:28
grab it? Yeah. I mean, I'll feel that mouth feel like I'm gonna explode. Me too.
31:32
Well, you say it doesn't have to be that way. So if you dig down one step lower than that,
31:37
it's okay, then why is it that way? Is it kind of what you mentioned tonight where it's like,
31:42
men are especially bad at not having a King's table. They don't have mat coders. They don't
31:46
have a foxhole. They don't have a whatever your persuasion is that makes it land in your brain.
31:50
Is it that it's so easy to insulate yourself when you're at the tip of the spear in the ministry
31:56
that you don't feel the need to have those guys around you or you can have those guys around you,
32:00
but they still are kind of impressed by you so they don't push back? Yeah.
32:04
I think there's all sorts of things that could happen. One, if you're tasting success in the
32:10
world sense, because listen, I don't care what you show me today, we're gonna have to wait. I mean,
32:13
the Bible says you got to wait for it to be refined and see what gets burned off. We'll see what's
32:17
really gold here when Christ returns. So you could show me a guy with a church of 40,000 who
32:24
Winnie preaches, he makes me cry. And I'm still in the back of my head going, we'll see. We'll see.
32:30
We'll see whose heart belongs to the Lord and whose. But I think what happens is if you start
32:36
tasting that success, then notoriety goes up and dollars go up, not just for you, but for everybody
32:42
around you. They're all dependent on you. And then now they need you to be that guy and need you to
32:48
not be weak and need you to not. And so accountability can wane and you can get, I mean, I think we've
32:54
seen it over and over again, where you get a pass for your gifting when your character hadn't kept
32:59
pace. Oh boy, think about how instinctive hiding is. Oh my gosh. The garden. It starts
33:08
number one. It's instinct number one. Hide. Yep. And I'm pretty sure everybody's the same here.
33:14
I think part of it is this too. Everything you preach tonight is so upside down kingdom to the
33:19
world we live in. It's so against the grain of the culture and the air that we breathe.
33:24
Because the air that we breathe is, what do you mean, confess weakness? No, no, no, no, no. I made
33:29
it like I'm not even talking about ministry. But like, you know, the dude, it's like the CEO,
33:34
the woman that's finally made it to the spot and she's got the she's well, whatever the things are.
33:39
And she's like, that would have crushed me in my career. Everything. It's honestly, it's kind of
33:45
like the church. If you go to that kind of church where you learn to play the game, there's a system
33:49
of reward and punishment. You run really quick. What gets you rewarded? What gets you punished?
33:54
And you still keep being rewarded. And the worst thing that can happen, bro, you be
33:58
honest that a church is not gospel saturated. You will be punished for bad behavior. And you're like,
34:03
okay, cool. You guys have taught me how to lie really, really well. Well, you take that thing in
34:08
the world and it is so counter cultural, man. This is some, this is some on earth as it is in heaven.
34:14
In heaven, we are fully known on earth. We put a picture forward that we want people to see.
34:24
You said something else that's in the culture, which is to believe that you're a victim.
34:29
And you talk about the reality of salvation or the gospel is for your past, your present,
34:34
your future. And I just thought it was so powerful when you're like, you can believe these promises.
34:41
That's who you are now. And so why do people stay in that victim? It's so pervasive. I'm going to
34:48
blame everybody else for the pride. I think if they're in it, they probably don't even know that
34:52
they're in it. I think it's been an air they've been breathing for a while. It's certainly normal
34:57
in culture to, I mean, I come from some nonsense, but it ain't, it wasn't all my daddy. It was,
35:03
I mean, I made some choices. I own some things. And I mean, he didn't, I won't share something,
35:09
but he didn't make certain decisions for me. I made them. And so for them, me to say,
35:14
oh, man, I've had these issues and my dad didn't, you know, cuddle with me. And I'm not making
35:19
light of that. That's serious stuff. But, but man, I, I made some, I've got to own the life that I'm
35:25
living right now. He, he might have been what he was, but I, it's my life. It's my life. And I can
35:33
choose by the grace of God to lean into the healing power of Jesus or to stop doing that
35:41
because it's easier for me to blame this church because these two people at the church were mean
35:48
to me or, you know, didn't do what I expected them to do or didn't. And that's the kind of
35:54
nonsense that's everywhere right now where you're just like, well, the church did this. And I'm like,
35:58
well, that, the nonprofit didn't do that nor did the body, you know, the King Jesus' body do that.
36:04
You had a couple of bad actors, which the Bible's full of, by the way,
36:09
like the disciples don't watch Judas betray Jesus and say, I knew it and bail on Jesus. Right.
36:19
Because Judas is an idiot. Right. No, they, they, they know what's true. They keep their eyes
36:24
where they should be and move towards him, not from him. I've been saying a time, please don't
36:29
reject Jesus because you had a bad experience with religious people. Yeah. On every page at the
36:34
gospel, Jesus had bad experiences with religious people. No doubt. Yeah. No doubt. And you, you've
36:38
mentioned a couple of times Pastor David recently, the deconstruction idea. And every single time,
36:44
it is a, it's a caricature. It's a rejection of a caricature or a religious system, a religious
36:51
culture is like, Oh, if that's Jesus, I'm out, you know, and I'm just telling you who didn't
36:54
get struck. Yeah. Peter. Yeah. He had breakfast with resurrect to Jesus. Exactly. Now, yeah,
36:59
they're often deconstructing a culture of Christian ease that probably needs to be
37:07
Yeah. For sure. For sure. No problem. I didn't culture. We just talked about you. Probably
37:11
that's not not good. Well, I even think even if you like, if you think about how we desired to
37:16
build the church as we passed, there was a certain certain level for me of, I know what we're not
37:22
going to 100% tell you that. I know how we won't behave by the grace of God promises. I made the
37:27
back of churches as a [inaudible] off you besser. Yeah. If I was in charge, then one day. All right,
37:32
scooter. Go ahead. I'm like, I had to call your man work for him. But hey, I just need
37:35
all for you in apology about that. I'd understand. But it was. Well, I mean, you know, most of our
37:41
life is over corrections. Yeah. I mean, it just really is. You got to be really careful with that.
37:44
Pastor Brit said this a few weeks ago, he was preaching and he began to go down a road and
37:51
he was going to throw a little bit of shade on the church he grew up in and he caught himself
37:56
and he just went, man, the older I get just the more, the more grace I have for, you know,
38:03
and he's helping on a church now for 10 years. So that'll change you. It will change you.
38:09
The mistakes I make, I want them to be great as a church leader. I want them to be grace forward
38:15
mistakes. You know, when it's hard to be grace forward in your mistakes, if you've accepted your
38:20
position as being downstream from culture. So you want to talk about this victimhood mindset?
38:24
It's because the cultural currency of the moment is that it's what are your intersecting points
38:30
that you can't control plus what are some of the chosen identities or realities that you've allowed
38:34
to basically run your life. Yeah. And if you're a church that, again, has accepted that position
38:40
of being downstream from culture, you were appealing to the wrong God, you're appealing to the God
38:43
of culture, not the God of the universe. And that helps really bolster and to put, you know,
38:49
Christianese and, you know, some scripture around these ideologies that don't come from the father.
38:54
No, I think one of the things I appreciated about you and been able to share this with you personally
38:59
is, I mean, you're an angsty preacher at the right things. Okay. Because there's some people that are
39:06
angsty at the wrong thing. Like, hey, man, you're yelling at the sheep that are there with your
39:10
body. You know, you're not yet, you're like, you're angsty at the religious systems that keep
39:17
lost people from meaning Jesus. You're angsty at the, at the Christian that's faking it. But,
39:22
but there's this really warm invitation. I mean, look, Romans one equates the wrath of God
39:28
with turning you over to your own desires. Yeah. And it's the kindness of God that leads you to
39:33
repentance. So conviction is his kindness. And the meanest thing you could do is say,
39:38
I just keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. So I mean, that, that, I love, you know,
39:42
I love when you get a little way fired up, but you, but it's, it has always seemed to be
39:47
at the right things. You know, the things in culture, the silly caricatures against Jesus,
39:55
you know, he doesn't need to make over all the, all the things. It's been very encouraging.
39:59
Like the famous one, I didn't want the firm. Well, the first sermons I ever heard was the rose.
40:04
Yeah. Jesus wants the rose. So desiring God. So good. Yeah. That was the max there.
40:10
Oh, man, I can still find you. If I tell that story, I can, I'll get, I'll feel it. I mean,
40:15
I'll feel it in my bones. I mean, some people haven't heard it. Can you give it like a quick
40:18
overview of because it's incredibly powerful. Yeah. There was a young woman I met in college who
40:25
had just made an absolute mess of her life, man. I mean, just, I mean, had a kid was having an
40:32
affair with a married man when I met her. And she was just in my class. And, and so we just,
40:38
me and a couple of my friends just moved towards her and sharing gospel with her and
40:42
babysat her kid when she had to go to work and there wasn't anybody there and comforted her when
40:49
she was. And I think we were probably the first, like men who had not tried to move towards her
40:55
for any sexual reason. But we were just guys, man, like, we'll clean your apartment. You got to,
40:59
you know, work in two jobs. You got a kid, you know, and we, my friend, Robbie C,
41:06
maybe somebody's listening to this nose, he was playing at a, like a concert, not far from
41:13
where I was in the Abilene. And that's, that was my understanding. Oh, Robbie,
41:18
he's playing at this joint. Man, let's go check it out. And so just said, hey, you should,
41:21
she come with us to, to go see my buddy, Robbie C's great musician. You know, she was,
41:27
she loved going to the bar. She loved live music. And so, I mean, drinks there, but
41:31
there'll be great music. And so she agreed, which was shocking. And we went and then, man,
41:38
I just remember thinking, Oh, crud. It was probably stronger than that in my mind at the time.
41:43
It's one of those bait and switch when I realized I just walked into a true love weights rally.
41:48
And I mean, you can think whatever you want to think about all that, but
41:53
they, you know, Robbie's saying some of this stuff and led some worship and then this guy gets up.
42:00
And I just, I just want to be gracious to him. But for who I brought with me, I felt
42:06
rage, not anger. I mean, I felt like I wanted to fight him.
42:12
He, he pulls out this rose and he's just smelling it and talking about how beautiful it is. And
42:17
then he was like, it's so good. I just want everybody to touch it. You know, a lot of, I mean,
42:22
100 people in the room. So he throws it out and all the kids are smelling and handed it over.
42:26
And he just starts talking. And, but it's not, it's not gospel. It's not even biblical. It's
42:31
statistics on syphilis. I mean, I'm not kidding. This is the true love weights rally. You want
42:36
gonorrhea, do you? No. Is this really what we're doing? And then, I mean, Rose, it's nasty.
42:43
You'll probably die. You don't want blisters on your privates. He said, where's my, where's that
42:51
rose? And so this kid kind of comes up and it's all like busted and, you know, it's like a couple
42:56
petals left and say, I can feel him. I mean, I'm just, he holds it up. I'm sitting next to my friend.
43:03
Now who would want this? And I mean, it was all I could do not just stand up and scream like,
43:09
Jesus, what's the rose? You idiot. And then now I've got, now I've got to undo this.
43:16
I've got to undo this. I've got a man who just should have been preaching the good news of the
43:23
gospel to sexual brokenness that everyone in that room was guilty of. I don't care if they were
43:29
frigging 12 years old. Everyone in there's got a sexual bent that doesn't align with design.
43:34
That's right. And, and here's the shot where we've been encouraging her,
43:40
loving on her, serving her, talking about the beauty of Jesus. And I've got to walk into,
43:46
this is what you're like, who would want you? And, and then I could feel it. And it, it only has
43:52
grown over the years because I wonder how many 15 year old girls were in that room because they're
43:56
going to feel that shame in a more weighted way went, okay. And now are like no longer,
44:04
no longer interested in King Jesus at all, because they just saw them like, who wants this? Well,
44:09
good Lord, He does. And so I told that story at a desiring God conference and 07 or something like
44:18
that. And that was, they, they posted it. I didn't even know. I didn't even know that was good.
44:24
I just was angry. It was pretty good. And a part of the reason we've worked so
44:29
hard to make sure this church is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship
44:33
with Jesus, to make sure our people are praying for their one more and inviting their one more,
44:37
is because the gospel is never more focused and alive in your life than when your lost friend is
44:43
sitting next to you. Oh my gosh, yes. All of a sudden all the church things that you're comfortable
44:48
with, you're, you see, you're very, very different. And if you look through the script, if you look
44:55
through the gospels, the times that the disciples got in the most trouble is when they made it about
45:02
them. Hey, can we sit on your left, your left and right? And Jesus like, what are you talking about?
45:06
The time when Jesus hide, find them is when they were conduits to help other people meet Jesus.
45:12
So we take a version of our vision statement and say the best way that you will deepen your
45:20
relationship with Jesus is get real serious about helping other people discover theirs.
45:25
Another way to say that is the Great Commission. And it matters. It will keep your church gospel
45:31
centered when you are really focused on being a conduit of the gospel to somebody that doesn't
45:37
yet know Jesus. You'll know your Bible better because they may ask questions. You'll look at your
45:41
life differently because you know my lifestyle impacts these people. I'm not trying to earn my
45:45
salvation, but I am trying to demonstrate it for my lost friend, you know, and you'll love people.
45:50
God loves people. Yeah.
45:53
You talked about the past, the present, the future. And then the third point about the future
45:59
seemed to me like a bit of a, you know, shout out to Dr. Piper, future grace, the grace of God
46:06
is future oriented. And I feel like maybe there was a little bit more there, like because hope for
46:11
the future is a powerful motivation. So how does understanding God's grace being future oriented?
46:18
Here's the, I think my favorite, like just a couple of verses on this is in the book of Hebrews
46:25
where the writer of Hebrews is like, because there was nothing more powerful by which he could swear.
46:30
He swore by his own name. Like how serious is God getting us home? He's like, I swear by,
46:38
you know, I swear by me. I swear by my own name. I'm not going to leave you. I'm not going to
46:44
get you home. And for us in 2024, that was always all future. I mean, so the Lord that has brought me
46:54
this far will get me safely home. You know how I know? Because he swore by his name, he would.
47:00
He didn't, he didn't quote some Old Testament, he just swore by his name. I will be faithful
47:07
to you. I will not leave you or forsake you. You are mine. And I swear I'm going to get you there.
47:13
And if all authority and power is his, then he's going to get me there. He's going to get me there.
47:20
Yeah. I think, you know, a big, a big reason you and there are many, many reasons you and I fall
47:25
in the salvation as the Lord's camp one is because we read the Bible that helps a lot.
47:30
And we read all the verses and just use the words it says, but the, the people that do believe or
47:38
question their own salvation, all the focus is on the wrong part of the equation. Yeah. Because
47:44
you begin to put the focus on you and say, did I do enough? What have I done? And it's the wrong
47:49
focus. It's actually, can I lose my salvation? Is the wrong question? The question is, God,
47:54
can you lose me? Yeah. Jesus just absolutely says, no, not only cannot I and will I not lose you,
48:01
nobody can even pluck you out of my hand. The enemy can't take you either. Yeah.
48:06
Now your experience of that life and goodness can be deeply altered by you doing the stuff we
48:15
talked about tonight, you moving from him rather than towards him. But, but you, you belong to him.
48:22
And his presence is going to transform you from the inside out.
48:26
Not you're never going to effort your way into conformity. You're going to be transformed by the
48:31
renewing of your mind, not conformed by your white knuckle discipline. Yeah. Sanctification is such
48:40
a gift to us to release us to be free. And it is for freedom that we have been set free. Listen,
48:45
one time I was in the gym with my, with JP's football team last year, two years ago, and I'm
48:50
coaching him in there in the weight room, you know, and I get so mad, dude, I get so mad because
48:54
they're so lazy and I mean, dude, and I saw a dream out of him. Everybody wants to be strong.
49:00
Nobody wants to be sore. And I thought, oh, boy, that'll preach. Oh, so all the soreness
49:08
that you go through in the sanctification process is for your benefit so that you play with freedom
49:15
on Friday night because you're stronger than the enemy. That's it, bro. So when the enemy's, I mean,
49:20
when the Lord is pruning you in that sanctification process, dude, he's taken out some junk. So you
49:26
don't have to be hindered by it in the future. It's freedom. Yeah. When you, when you're listening
49:32
to that sermon tonight and you're sitting back there and the Lord is just wearing you out going
49:36
go to the altar and lay it down, I know it's not a fun thing. It's not an easy thing. It's not like,
49:42
you know what I wanted to do tonight? I wanted to go just snot on myself down in front of everybody,
49:46
you know, and bro, that is the process by which he is breaking some stuff loose.
49:52
For his glory and for your joy, you're going to walk away differently because
49:59
the spirit of God with a hammer, like a hammer and a chisel with the spirit of God in the word of
50:05
God, just chisel it away. One more thing from you that doesn't look like Jesus and now you're
50:10
more conformed to his image and likeness. When you're talking about the, he swears by himself,
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to give you to, for the few, it makes me think of Jude's doxology now to him who is able to keep
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you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.
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I mean, like, that's freedom. It is freedom. And I thought it was so beautiful the way you,
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you're talking about this is how we treated God. Yeah. And he's always only ever stepped
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towards us, you know, and that's a general truth and a personal truth. Yeah. You know, so I think,
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I think we weren't running out of time, but let's close down with whatever else we want to unpack
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before we, before we shut her down. You got anything? Anything else? It's just, it's so
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incredible to watch what's happening in a place like this at a time like this,
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because guys, we're sitting in one of them, what people would argue is one of the most
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contentious times in human history. Everything is seemingly the most important blank that has ever
51:12
blanked in the blankety blank. Always, ever, always. And the thing is, is it's so easy for us to lose
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side of the main things, which causes us to run from God and not to God. And it's a haunting thing
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to have listened to you bowl for so long now. And it's like, it says something not about God
51:34
when you run away from him. It says something about you. And when you're in the midst of sin,
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or of temptation, or of any of those types of things, and you're running from and not to,
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it's, it's a certain level of unhealth that is hard to describe in a way that is accurate,
51:51
except as, as a way for us to understand, this is a means by which we have to change and the change
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has to happen now, or we will continue down this road. And I think that's what a big theme of
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saturate has been up to this point, to where it's like, where, where are we running from and the
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99% known, and it being completely unknown. But then that's not it. You have a refrain and the
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refrain is, but you run to God and you confess to God and you lay it all to his feet. And that's
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where it begins. And so it's just been an incredible thing to watch, even just over a couple of days,
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get that, have that hammered home as hard as it has been.
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Amen. I'll say this, my, you know, guys love towards us is unconditional. My love is not, my love is
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conditional. And I love you more now than I did before. And here's why, here's why I'll say that.
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You ever like, when people are really good to your kids, you just love them, you know, like a coach,
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a teacher, right? A babysitter, you know, when you find that right babysitter, you want to like,
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adopt them into your family and lavish them with love, because of how they love these people that
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you love so much. Well, you loved the people that I'm giving my life to serve. Come on. You love them
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so well tonight. And so it just, I mean, we're already buddies and, you know, all the things, but,
53:06
but I appreciate it more. You know what it's like, because you also pastor a church and have a
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people that you serve for a long time and won't deserve a long time, same year. And so, man,
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I just appreciate it so, so, so much that you would be here and just love our people with the
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gospel so well. Come on, man. If you're calling, I'm trying to say yes. I know.
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Let me, I'll, I'll just end my couple of cents. And I don't, I don't know if you're in your car
53:32
right now or if you're on a treadmill or on in a walk in your neighborhood or maybe you're sitting
53:41
in the office and I don't know how all these things are hitting you or what you've picked up on or
53:46
said. But these things we're talking about, they're for you. They're not for your unbelieving
53:53
friend. You know, maybe they are, but not just for. There are things that we've said here today that
53:59
are for you that the Lord wants you to hear for you. And I would hate for you to, you know, listen
54:07
to this. And then your only takeaway would be like, Shelly really needs to hear this.
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But that you would, there would be something here for you from the Lord. And as you turn this off
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because it's over and you head to the rest of your day or you, you know, run your errands or finish
54:27
your workout or go back home after your walk, I would love for you to just consider what it is
54:33
that the Lord has for you. And what He wanted you to hear and take from this and
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let Him grow it in your heart in a way that your, you know, that passage were transformed
54:48
from one degree of glory to a next, which is really slow. It's a lot slower than I prefer,
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but what would it look like? What's that like one degree of glory that you would take from this
54:58
conversation that the Lord had for you? Because we're just, listen, I know the guys around this
55:03
table, we're just kind of bumbling forward. And it's a beautiful thing that the things that we
55:09
want to talk about the Lord's like, yeah, I had them that was for you. I wanted to say that to you.
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And we just got to be the guys that it came out in an unscripted conversation about a sermon that's
55:20
been over for an hour or so. And so I would just love for you to consider before you turn this off
55:26
and move back to your music or whatever podcast is next. Like, what is that? Where's that one
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degree of glory that the Lord wants to do after this conversation in your life and your heart?
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Let's pray. Our good and gracious Heavenly Father, you're nothing but good and grace flows from you.
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God, we love you because you first loved us. Don't ever let us forget it. If you're
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anyone and everyone listening, may they know that they know that they know that God loves
55:57
them and that Jesus is the proof. We pray in Jesus name. Amen. Amen.
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We pray in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email to info@undonton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undonton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album on Face Down Records. The links are in the description.
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Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
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