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(upbeat music)
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- This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Let's get into it.
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- Wow.
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- Okay.
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- That's the word for this week is wow.
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Thank you, Pastor Ben.
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Maybe we could start with another Jamaican accent.
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- Sorry, good.
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- Yeah.
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- It's dangerous.
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Risky behavior.
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- Yum.
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- Yum.
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- Yum.
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I mean, so we're gonna dive into the message
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and I'm gonna start with the question of all.
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And you talked about those of us who have lost our all
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and the statistics about anxiety and self harm.
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I mean, you mentioned that book by Jonathan Haidt,
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which a lot of people are talking about,
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like just the research there is really--
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- Spectacular.
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- It's scary, yeah.
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So all of us struggle with that idea of like maintaining
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that appropriate sense of awe at the Lord.
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So it's not just a teenager problem or a social media problem.
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It's all of us.
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So what are some of the reasons why
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that can seem elusive?
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- Gosh, yeah, that's a great question.
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I mean, you know, Paul will point out to the Corinthians
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that God of this age is blind to the eyes of the unbelieving.
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They can't see the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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So there is a spiritual element of God.
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Would you, the glory of God is there.
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David prayed it, Lord, open my eyes
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that I might see the wonders in your law.
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They're there, but they're there, but help me see them.
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So there's that human deficiency because of sin.
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There's the active work of the devil.
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So there's that element.
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But they're not, well, and I think, you know, see us Lewis.
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I mean, talks about it, right?
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And screw tape letters about how the enemy loves
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to fill the world with noise.
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And I mean, this is pretty cell phone.
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He's like, that's his deal.
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It's just harassed and helpless.
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I mean, what does harassed mean?
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I mean, someone's constantly messing with you.
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When Jesus saw the crowds, he's like,
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they're just constantly being messed with
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and they completely don't have the resources to deal with it.
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And so he had compassion.
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So I think for us, the constant interruption of cell phones
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is something the enemy loves to keep us from,
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you know, some people can't stand the silence
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'cause the minute they're there,
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what am I doing with my life?
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What is life even about those deep questions
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that lead to truth are there for us in the silence?
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But sometimes it's just hard to get there.
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- I think the thing that it brings up for a lot of us
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as well is what is in that silence that I'm running from.
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And so what we do is we, even when there is no buzz
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or there is no notification that we will insert something
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in there, but the trick that some of us will do is like,
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oh, no, no, we're inserting a podcast.
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That's really helping us.
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We're inserting a book, you know, from our favorite,
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this, that or the other thing.
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And I'll say this for me.
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I'll throw myself on my own sword here.
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I'm like, oh, I'm a content junkie, but I need that
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because I have to be able to regurgitate this stuff.
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And I need to understand all these different things.
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But if I were to be honest, it's because I'm a little bit
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afraid of what God's gonna tell me whenever things get silent.
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And I know that's not the correct church answer
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and a way to approach it.
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But I think that there are a lot of specifically men
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that run into that, but I mean, it's across the board.
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- Well, it happened to me to debt.
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You know, I think the Lord loves to make us live our sermons,
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you know?
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And so today I kept checking my phone.
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I'm like, why am I checking my phone so much?
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And then I just talked, and I was like, I am not searching
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for truth or information.
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I am escaping the bad feelings.
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You're like, I'm just a little stressed about trying
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to figure this out.
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So I'm like, I don't even know why I'm doing this.
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But I think often shame and peds strategic thinking.
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And so when we feel, you know, whenever you tell people,
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like you just have to say cell phone and people are like,
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like they know they feel bad about their relationship to it.
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You go, no, no, no, no.
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I'm not trying to bury you in shame.
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Just strategically get curious about what am I doing?
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Like you said, like, oh, I'm trying to distance myself
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from some sad feelings, but maybe when I acknowledge
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what's driving those, that begins a journey towards truth
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and a journey towards grace and towards the Lord.
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- I think it's also, some people use it as medication,
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but as you just put it, it's literally just a stiff arm.
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And so some people are using things
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to get that little hit of dopamine,
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that little hit of something so that they can like
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speak to that deeper truth or that deeper wound
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or something like that.
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But that's not really what a lot of people are doing.
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It's the more functional, like if you're highly conscientious,
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the more functional thing is now I'm gonna stiff arm
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these things as opposed to like using it.
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'Cause we know the medication, the self-medication's bad.
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And so we're gonna like, you know,
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reverse engineer it into something else.
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- It is interesting how we tend to blame,
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we say that God's the problem, right?
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And you said if Christianity or Jesus is boring to us,
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it's because we did that, not because God,
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but we sinned us that to us and Satan loves that,
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that we'd say, oh, see, you're not interesting enough
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to hold my attention when we are constantly allowing ourselves
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to be distracted and interrupted.
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- And there was something that came up actually right
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after your sermon that I think kind of plays into all this
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as well.
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So what you were saying, you were doing your own personal
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devotional stuff today and that you were in Ecclesiastes.
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Do you remember the section that you were talking about
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as it pertained to your own sermons?
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- Oh yeah, the very end.
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I was in the last chapter of Ecclesiastes
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and it says the preacher sought to find words of delight
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and uprightly he wrote words of truth.
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And I love that 'cause he was like, hey,
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he thought about this a lot, he sought out words.
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Like let me work on this.
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And he presented truth.
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He's like, that's what I'm here to do is give you truth.
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But then he's like, but let me provide it in a package
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that you find interesting enough to like,
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I like to use the word delight 'cause there is a version
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of preaching that's shallow and tingy
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and doesn't deliver truth.
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He's like, no, I'm gonna preach the truth.
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But let me do it with words that are memorable
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that help you pay attention.
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And so I was like, I'm praying today
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for interesting word choice so that people pay attention
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and the truth gets in there.
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- I mean, we were just chopping it up after your sermon
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just kind of chatting in several things
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like flooded my mind immediately.
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So I immediately thought of, you know,
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and run over, Brad, the grace train you talked about,
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you're here to comfort the afflicted
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and afflict the comfortable.
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So I thought about that.
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But then immediately what came to mind
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was second Timothy 4, for the time is coming
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when people will not endure sound teaching,
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but having itching ears, they will accumulate
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for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.
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And so how do you look at that lesson in Ecclesiastes
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and take those words and try to, you know,
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even apply that to what you were going to be doing
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several hours later up in front of everybody
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while at the same time realizing that there are people
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that are just showing up to have their ears tickled
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and how can we keep that from happening
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and how can we keep afflicting the comfortable?
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- Yeah.
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Well, I think, you know, there's two things happening there.
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And I tell the guys this in studying,
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like I'm studying the text to understand it
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and then I'm working on how to explain it.
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So I was reading a book the other day
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and he was, this guy was giving the autobiography
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of someone who had changed his life, William Gurnell.
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And he was said, it's very hard to write a biography about
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William Gurnell 'cause there was only one book about his life.
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He said, and the guy who wrote it,
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he said he was wonderful at accumulating information,
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but in distributing that information, he's a failure.
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And I was like, oh man, so I started writing,
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I was like, Lord, let this not be me.
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- Sounds like everybody in my preaching class.
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- Exactly.
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And then he gave like three more illustrations.
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He was like, great at acquiring the wealth of knowledge,
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bad at spending, I'm like, we got it, we got it.
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The guy was a terrible communicator.
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So you got to work on both, but do I have truth?
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And am I communicating it winsomely?
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And there are people that are great at communication,
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but with their hand to use death,
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just things to suit your passion.
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And I started laughing because I just think,
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Joe, you know, you're one of the best at it.
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I've just, this is truth, man.
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And you're packaging it away that it's gonna slip past
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people's defenses, it's coming from the angle
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they don't see coming, it's language that gets them,
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it's run over by the grace train.
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That's interesting language and that it's delightful.
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You go, help me understand.
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What do that mean?
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And it gets truth past defenses.
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And I think good preaching does it.
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- Your whole sermon was just so Christ-exalting.
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Like a lot of times guys give an illustration
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in the beginning, just kind of loosen everybody up,
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but it really doesn't have anything to do with anything.
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You know what I mean?
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Like, guys, it's funny.
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There's funny thing I thought of.
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And you don't know who I am that good.
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So let me say this for a little while.
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Okay, which is fun.
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- The old school preachers are like,
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let me start with a funny anecdote.
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- Yeah.
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- Just tell you that they're doing it.
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Like the joke.
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- Yeah, Bush, everybody laugh in three, two, one.
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So your illustration about,
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there's a real Jamaica verse,
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this kind of milk toast Jamaica.
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And please don't let that be your experience here
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in church, right?
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Dude, it carried the whole all the way to the end.
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And you're so Christ-exalting.
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Vicky, I think one of the major reasons
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so many people lose to all of God.
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One, we breathe way too much air-conditioned air.
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And many, many people can go entire days
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without laying their eyes on a thing that God made,
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but only things that men have made.
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And that will not inspire all.
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It just won't.
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So if you have it, like, you know,
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deer season open today.
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And I know this is subjective
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to my own personal preferences,
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but I watched the sunrise over a field
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and watched five young deer
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that I wasn't going to shoot us,
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watched them feed for 45 minutes
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in everything's brown and green.
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And then a red cardinal pops in.
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And I mean, there's no way you look at that
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and think I'm the point.
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There's no way you look at that
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and think I'm kind of a big deal here.
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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, right?
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And so, you know, we live in polluted,
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like the air is polluted,
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our ears are polluted, the light pollution.
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Like if you could see the Milky Way every night,
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you would take your spot.
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And so, and if you think about it,
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you know, harassment is noise.
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There is no noise in God's creation.
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There are noises, but it's not noisy.
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You're like, that's the wind going through the leaves.
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I know what that is.
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That's a bird chirping.
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That's a cricket.
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That's a frog.
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There's not random.
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There's not like, like road traffic, you know?
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There's not.
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And so now the other thing,
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Binky, to your original question,
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I think the church has checked this thing up.
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Because it has not played,
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she has not played her part
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in helping people lift up their eyes
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off of their own circumstances,
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get it up over the horizon and see Jesus exalted.
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So if you look in Acts two,
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like the, you know, the part where everybody likes to quote
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when they plan a church,
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you're gonna be this kind of church,
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but they never talk about the most important part.
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They talk about devoting themselves to the apostles,
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teaching very important.
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The fellowship and the breaking of the bread,
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very important prayers, very important.
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And nobody ever says, and all came upon every soul.
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Well, you've been to church
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and all came upon yourself,
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but it was like, oh, that's a different all.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Oh, right.
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What are you doing?
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Like just so basic, just so common, just so.
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Listen, man, what?
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- Jesus is my home.
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- It happened again tonight.
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It has happened every night is saturated.
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All filled that place, the all of God,
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the supremacy of Christ.
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Like, and then you see people respond
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'cause they're in the storm
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or they've been chained up or they got an issue.
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And all you did, I mean, unbelievably like,
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supernaturally gifted, talented way,
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but you just pointed to Christ over and over and over.
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You're just pointed to Christ and everybody's like,
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I mean, like the woman with the issue of bleeding,
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they had to fight their way through the crowds
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to get to the hem of the garment.
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And that's what we experience.
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So I think that's what was happening
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in the early church.
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- Yeah.
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We probably all follow the same, you know,
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scientists and podcasts and stuff like that,
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but it didn't funny to talk about being outside.
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It didn't funny how many people are talking about.
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If you see the low level sunlight or if you hear the,
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if you hear the different sounds,
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you're like, put your feet in the dirt
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and that kind of calms you.
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- Yeah, it's crazy.
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- I figure this out.
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Be a Christian.
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- What do you do?
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- Do a quiet time, look at God.
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- Is we are the, so people that think strictly
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in a, you know, evolutionary biology type of way
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or naturalist type of way, they see us as just another
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form of a highly evolved creature, right?
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But even they have to ponder,
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why are we the only creatures that look at the sky?
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There's no real record of animals
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that are looking at the sky.
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And I don't mean like a bird that's looking in the sky,
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looking for, you know, where they're going to land
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or, you know, the animal they're going to pounce on.
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It's like, there are no other animals
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that are looking up thinking how vast, like the Milky Way,
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like the fact that they're falling asleep or waking up
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and they can see the Milky Way, none of that matters.
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And it's even causing these people to think like, why?
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Like, what is it about us?
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Like, because what, what evolutionarily a beneficial
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structure is there to us being in awe, right?
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'Cause it has to go beyond the creation.
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- Reading his paper on it, you know, Jonathan Hite,
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and I forget the co-author of his paper is wild
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because he's, they're just scientifically observing,
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hey, awe's a real phenomena, you're built for this.
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It has enormously positive effects,
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but they don't know why, right?
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Isn't that weird?
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- You know, and you're just like, oh man, your mom,
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keep going. - Yeah.
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And even in this new book, that anxious generation,
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he gets to a point in the middle where it's like he just
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stops the music and goes, he says it.
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I'm gonna use a word that is not normally used
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in my discipline.
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He says, spiritual.
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I think we are being spiritually degraded.
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And then he points, we need communal singing.
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We need to stand in awe with a group of people
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like the Christians do.
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(laughing)
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- I mean, he's just right there.
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And so I, you know.
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- Nobody, no one is a biological macro evolutionist
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except in the classroom and on a podcast.
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Nobody is a biological macro evolutionist at home.
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They're a dad and they're a mom and they care deeply
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in places they can't explain evolution.
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You know, they're not, 'cause Eric, let's say you're,
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you know, you're an evolutionary biologist
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and your daughter is sick.
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You are not, you're not like, well, let's just have four more
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and then our odds are good.
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You know, all the things that you've taught all day
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in your class, you're like, screw that.
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We need Jesus, we need help, we need a doctor,
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we need a miracle, we need something, why?
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Because they know in that moment,
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this cannot just be explained by survival of the fittest.
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It cannot be because if your kid is not the fittest,
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you still want them to survive.
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- Yeah. - Yeah.
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- Yeah, man.
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You so beautifully with this section of Mark,
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talked about those three things, the power of Jesus,
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the purposes of Jesus, the priority of Jesus, priorities.
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And so talking about his power that the disciples,
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we probably have heard that story a hundred times,
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the disciples being afraid in that storm
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and then you pointed out, they were more afraid
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when Jesus said, hey, stop it and it worked.
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And so the line that hit me was,
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what's scarier than the storm is gonna kill you?
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It's a person that's more powerful than us,
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that controls the storm that is trying to kill you.
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And so that brings up that idol of control that we all have.
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So we all wanna be in control
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and then we suddenly realize, oh no, I'm not.
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So are we all just control freaks?
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Or what is that instinct in us that sees Jesus
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and his power and is like, wait a second,
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I feel like I'm losing that.
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- Yeah. You know, it's interesting in DC,
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you know, different cities have different values
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and priorities and idols.
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DC powers is, you know, you're there to get power.
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And so to hear somebody else has power is really,
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we watch it a third of our church,
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we're their first church, you know?
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So there's a lot of people coming to faith.
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It's exciting in that sense.
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But you see that come up of like,
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I'm just scared, if you have power over me,
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you can exploit it, you can hurt me.
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And so I want no one to have power over me.
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But they actually don't want no one to have power.
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They just, they don't know that he's good, you know?
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So you realize, man, they need to know the character
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of Jesus, 'cause when you do,
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you don't want the world to be at the whims of evil men.
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You don't want like, no one has control.
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Well, then that means whoever's bigger wins.
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And that's the people you're most scared of.
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Like, this is not, you need to see the character of this man.
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So that's where I was trying to drive it in that.
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- Yeah, and you actually don't want whatever
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the most popular thing is to be the law of the land.
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That goes real bad for a lot of people
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in many, many instances in our human history.
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The best form of government ever
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would be a benevolent dictator.
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There's just only been one in his name is Jesus.
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Everybody else, it's turned really, really wicked.
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But yeah, this is the king that you can trust
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'cause he laid his life down.
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I, in that text, the way I always see it,
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'cause you know, man, I'm not just listening to you.
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I'm listening at you preach this and just like,
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I mean, incredible.
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- I gotta tell you, the last time I was here,
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I came into his office, it was a Thursday,
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he's about to preach.
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So he's like, this is game face mode, right?
18:19
So he's like, he's like prowling around,
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like getting ready to go.
18:22
What's pumping him up is not like music or something.
18:25
It's one of your sermons.
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And like, he goes, Kyle, like I'm coming in and like,
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hey man, what's up?
18:31
I haven't seen you guys.
18:32
Kyle, he's shut up here, come sit down,
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come sit down right here and just listen to this, right?
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And so it's like to even elucidate that a little bit further.
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When he says he's listening at you, that's what he means.
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- That's mutual.
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- And I think, I mean, you know, the Bible doesn't say this
18:43
directly, but in my mind, the way this works,
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Jesus gets up from his neck, the fishermen are like,
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do you not even care, we are perishing.
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Like how perishing are you?
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I'm napping, you're perishing.
18:53
Okay, I don't even believe you.
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What if he looks in the eyes of the disciples and says,
18:58
peace be still.
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- Yeah.
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- Like this command is not necessarily directed.
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The wind in the waves is also listened, you know?
19:06
- Yeah.
19:07
Yeah.
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I just love his question, like, why are you so afraid?
19:11
- Yeah.
19:12
- They're like, really?
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Like why are you, I mean, and then he leaves about that.
19:15
Yeah, he's like, you guys,
19:17
you don't have a handle on who you're dealing with yet.
19:20
- Well, when you fast forward the story
19:22
and you see when their faith starts to fall to pieces,
19:24
pieces that, you know, most famously Peter,
19:26
it's like, you think about all these things
19:29
that happened up to that point.
19:30
And it's like, and I always try to make sure
19:33
that I don't think that I would be,
19:35
it have been any different had I been in their shoes.
19:37
Like that, you know, you've got books
19:38
that'll just completely disabuse you of that notion.
19:41
There's that book of, I can't remember,
19:43
so those Polish guys that were a police force
19:46
and then slowly but your ordinary men.
19:47
- Yeah.
19:48
- And, you know, slowly but surely they moved
19:51
into basically supporting the Nazis
19:52
and then at some point they were marching women
19:54
into the middle of the woods and having them strip naked
19:57
and shooting them before their mass graves, right?
19:59
And it was like just the slow, slow, slow move
20:02
of what people are and people always assumed
20:04
that they wouldn't have been,
20:05
they would have been the one guy
20:06
on that Polish police force that would have said,
20:08
this is terrible, we can't do this,
20:09
I'm going to be the one to stop it.
20:11
They would have been the one person at the Mielei massacre
20:13
that would have said, we've got to like stop
20:14
what's going on down there, but I look at these stories
20:16
and see these stories all along the way,
20:18
and I'm like, I would have been Peter,
20:20
I would have been Peter, but worse somehow.
20:22
Like you have to be humble when you approach that.
20:25
- We went, I take my kids to national parks
20:28
'cause I want them to experience awe
20:29
and be out in nature to do it.
20:31
And I went, we were in a dark sky zone.
20:33
I'm like, I'm waking them up,
20:34
we're gonna go see the Milky Way, this is gonna be epic.
20:36
So I took them way out, it was just me and my two girls,
20:39
my little boys asleep in Donna.
20:41
So I took them out, had that like headlamp on red,
20:45
kind of got to this spot and it was a little crazy.
20:47
There was like some families out there,
20:48
but you can't see your hand in front of your face,
20:50
but there's all this movement around,
20:51
I'm trying to get situated.
20:52
We were looking at the stars amazing,
20:54
get back to the car, I can't find my keys or my wallet.
20:59
And just, I'm like, we're not just like,
21:01
lost my keys and wallet, I lost them.
21:04
One of the darkest places on planet earth, you know?
21:07
And so I think about this, you're like,
21:09
yeah, it's just a storm.
21:10
You're like, at night, with no artificial light
21:13
and there's water in the boat,
21:14
they're like, we're gonna die today.
21:16
So part of it, you know, is just trying to draw people
21:20
into the emotional tension of the story.
21:22
You go, it's there for you.
21:23
- Yeah, I also think, I mean, this is an exact William song too,
21:26
but fear is a liar, fear, will exaggerate the wrong things
21:31
in your life and diminish the right things in your life.
21:34
And then you will begin to believe those lies
21:37
that it is telling you.
21:38
Like, nobody's gonna miss you.
21:41
So just, you're done, you know?
21:43
Or this decision is gonna ruin your life
21:46
for the rest of your life and there's no coming back.
21:48
Whatever it is, 'cause that, you know,
21:49
'cause Satan is the author of lies.
21:52
And we find out when Paul tells Timothy that fear
21:55
is not a feeling and it's not a personality type,
21:57
it's a spirit that is not of the Lord.
22:00
For God did not give you a spirit of fear.
22:02
So when fear begins to creep in,
22:05
you gotta really, really pay attention.
22:08
Because faith and perfect love
22:09
is gonna drive those things away.
22:11
- That's good.
22:12
- That doesn't mean you're not scared.
22:13
Scared is the opportunity for courage.
22:17
Praise God for courage.
22:19
Fear is paralyzing and faith produces action.
22:21
These are different things.
22:23
- How long have you said about the man among the tombs
22:28
that you could see that as a metaphor for every single one
22:31
of us because he was defiled, alone, self-destructive?
22:36
How long has that been an insight that you've worked with,
22:41
especially in church culture?
22:43
You think about, if you grew up in church, like I did,
22:48
you know, "Oh, Satan can't possess you."
22:52
So you might hear that story and think,
22:55
"Well, that's not me."
22:57
You know, that guy's some weirdo, some outcast of society,
23:01
but then when you said, "Hey, this is probably like you and me."
23:04
'Cause we are all busted up and in chains in some way.
23:09
So how did that insight pop in there?
23:13
'Cause it was great.
23:14
- Yeah, I don't know.
23:15
I mean, I get mixed up and I wanted to name them on purpose.
23:18
Tim Keller and Darryl Bach,
23:20
they just, I know their influence is all over my thinking
23:24
on this text.
23:25
Probably one of those two guys would be a way to say that.
23:29
But in terms of that particular, like the addiction side,
23:33
you know, my family's got a lot of addiction in our story
23:36
and then you get around recovery
23:39
and you see how much they were just grabbing
23:41
these principles of the cutting and baffling nature
23:45
that sin gets hold of you, you know?
23:49
And I remember, I think it was Tim Keller's zooming in
23:52
on that word anymore, meaning, okay,
23:55
there's a whole world of a story in that word anymore.
23:58
That means like there used to be people around him
24:01
who would bind him.
24:02
And now it's like, it's so strong,
24:05
like it's overwhelmed, whatever they were trying to do
24:09
and he is in this complete place.
24:10
And then, you know, whenever you look at scripture,
24:13
you know, especially in Greek,
24:14
there's no punctuation, no capitalization.
24:17
So how do you emphasize?
24:18
You emphasize with repetition in real estate
24:21
and you go to real estate in that passage
24:23
is how terrible this guy's situation is.
24:25
So you go, that was Mark's point.
24:26
He wants you to see how bad this was,
24:28
the defiling of it all.
24:30
And then he seated clothed in his right mind.
24:33
And so I pray that for people all the time,
24:35
that like they're so chaotic, they're so in pain
24:37
to be seated means to rest.
24:39
Clothes, you got your dignity back.
24:41
In your right mind,
24:42
it means that you silence the noise and you're at peace.
24:46
And I just go, that's so many guys,
24:47
I know they're in addiction.
24:48
They're just running around,
24:49
trying to mute the problem with it,
24:51
something that's becoming a problem.
24:53
- I thought it was so powerful when you said,
24:55
talking about he used to be bound,
24:58
and now those chains can't bind him.
25:02
Like you begin thinking,
25:05
I'm just gonna play with this thing,
25:07
especially when you think about substance abuse.
25:09
The person that has a hard time even believing in the demonic,
25:13
the quickest way I have found to help him get there
25:16
is to talk about addiction.
25:18
- Yeah.
25:19
- It's like a thing that's not you,
25:22
that bait you down a road to do a thing
25:25
that you don't wanna do, and it's gonna kill you.
25:28
What do you call that?
25:30
This is what these words are, okay.
25:32
So I started this,
25:34
'cause I was just gonna play with this thing,
25:36
this drink, this pill, this whatever,
25:38
'cause I have control over it,
25:39
and I can stop whenever I want.
25:41
And now it's playing with me,
25:42
baiting me down a road that's going to kill me.
25:47
And I don't care how much you love Jesus.
25:49
You get loose with substances like that.
25:51
And I mean, you know, technically, theologically right,
25:54
you're not possessed, you are oppressed,
25:55
but you're dead either way.
25:57
- You talk about getting inside the tension
26:00
inside of a text.
26:01
We've all been to Israel, right?
26:04
I mean, like this isn't, it's not a huge area.
26:07
So the city or the region would have been a small little town.
26:12
People would have known about this guy,
26:13
like little kids in the village are like,
26:16
like they're telling scary stories about that guy
26:18
at night, you know what I mean?
26:20
And so just think about how he would have been
26:22
probably a legendary outcast.
26:25
- Well, we had him in our little town.
26:27
You know, everybody knew the town drunk
26:28
or the town crazy guy, just kind of hang out
26:30
about a 7-11, you know?
26:32
- Well, that's when they see him seated
26:33
and cloden there, they're freaked out.
26:35
You know, I just, I laughed, you know,
26:37
you cut stuff for time, but I just think them rolling up me
26:39
like, "Bobby, is that you?"
26:41
You know, "Bobby, is that what you're doing?"
26:42
- Hey, how's everybody doing?
26:43
- He's like, "Hey guys, come back down."
26:45
- Anybody wants a bacon?
26:46
You got a lot of bacon.
26:48
(laughing)
26:49
- So you're like, "Yeah, that would come up."
26:51
Decapolis means 10 towns, that's 10 cities
26:54
that are all like, "Man, you're not gonna believe this guy."
26:56
- You didn't get into this.
26:57
Maybe this is a rabbit trail, but in this text,
27:00
I am always struck by the detail when,
27:03
so he does a miracle, Jesus is a miracle.
27:05
And they say, "Please leave."
27:08
- Yeah.
27:09
- So I guess it's because they're like,
27:12
"We lost our flock or our herd of pigs."
27:15
And so they're more concerned about what it cost them.
27:18
Is that what you read there?
27:19
- I think economics above human dignity,
27:22
like that's pretty common.
27:25
- Have you been to church?
27:26
- I mean, so we had Jim Bergen here the first night
27:30
and he's like, "Look, every church says
27:31
"they wanna reach lost people, until lost people show up."
27:34
(laughing)
27:36
And then how lost?
27:37
That's what he says.
27:38
Scale of one, it's him.
27:38
"What are you?"
27:39
"You're like a three lost church, that good."
27:41
But what about this law?
27:42
And then he told three stories,
27:43
I'm still getting emails about,
27:44
'cause they didn't like the way he handled it.
27:47
And I'm just, all I've replied is,
27:50
one guy said, "I'll pray for you."
27:51
One person, I said, "I hope the gospel penetrates
27:53
"the darkest part of your soul."
27:55
And then one person, I said,
27:56
"You might wanna give it another."
27:57
Listen, you're literally missing the whole point
28:01
of his sermon, like you or who he was talking about.
28:04
And they're like, "I don't think you should've said that."
28:07
Like, "Oh my goodness."
28:08
Well, you're probably not gonna like it here.
28:10
- Yeah.
28:11
- So that's it, man.
28:12
I mean, that is the church youth group
28:14
where the church, where the youth pastor,
28:17
that's reaching kids that need Jesus,
28:21
but his budget gets slashed,
28:23
'cause somebody spilled Kool-Aid on the memorial carpet.
28:26
And Aunt Martha's gonna be mad.
28:28
- Do you remember Ray Cortis coming to "Saturated"
28:31
and talking about just the scandal of grace?
28:34
And he's like, "I don't think he was trying
28:36
"to make this point."
28:37
But he said, "I walk into my church,
28:39
"passed all the guys smoking outside."
28:41
Being like, "Ah, give him hell tonight, Father."
28:43
- Yeah, yeah, he's got a homeless shelter
28:44
that shows up at a start.
28:45
- Exactly.
28:46
- And he's like, "You must buy his church, people."
28:47
And they're like, "What part of the scripture
28:50
"will you exegete tonight, Pastor?"
28:51
And he's like, "The other guy's smoking
28:53
"from the homeless shelter."
28:54
Or like, "Give him hell, Father."
28:56
I like to give him hell, guys, of us.
28:58
- Me too.
28:59
- You mentioned that the person who reacts with fear
29:04
that this is the Lord,
29:06
this is the one who bends reality to his will,
29:09
is because they've experienced others with power,
29:13
abused the power.
29:14
And so Jesus is unique in that he uses his power for love.
29:18
And it made me think of that quote,
29:22
I think maybe it's, okay, oh my gosh, Churchill, right?
29:26
Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
29:29
And so that's pretty mind-boggling.
29:32
The fact that Jesus has absolute power
29:34
and is full of love, isn't it?
29:36
'Cause it's so different.
29:37
You mentioned this a lot, Pastor Joe,
29:38
I mean, your sermon's like, "Have I had total power?"
29:40
For sure, I'd abuse it on the man.
29:43
You just might some people down, right?
29:44
Because when they, as soon as they annoyed you,
29:46
as soon as they inconvenienced you,
29:47
it's like you're gonna use it for your own good.
29:49
- Yes, it's scary, didn't it?
29:53
It was interesting, I was reading with my kids Solomon,
29:55
well, two reasons it was interesting.
29:57
You know, when God tells them,
29:59
I'll give you what, like, what do you want?
30:01
I asked my kids, my girls are middle school,
30:04
and I said, "How would you answer that?"
30:06
And they both said, "No phones."
30:08
- Wow.
30:09
- Neither of them have phones.
30:10
They're just watching it affect their friends.
30:12
And I'm like, "Whoa," you know?
30:14
But then, you know, Solomon prays for wisdom,
30:17
and God says, "You didn't ask for money."
30:20
And then he says, "You didn't ask for vengeance
30:22
"on your enemies."
30:23
And I always thought that one was weird
30:25
until I watch people get in places of power,
30:28
and they instantly want to downgrade whoever.
30:32
They get on the mic and be like,
30:32
"Well, so-and-so said this about me."
30:34
You're like, "Man, we just, when we get power,
30:36
"we're like, now everyone pays."
30:38
You're like, "A politics."
30:41
- Yeah.
30:42
- Every incoming, it's the clean house.
30:43
It's like, everybody's got to get out.
30:44
- Well, you talk about the nature of Jesus,
30:46
and Joby talked about the benevolent dictator.
30:48
Well, Jesus wasn't in control of government, right?
30:51
Technically, in that moment, they didn't like, you know,
30:52
make him governor of his little area of Judea
30:55
or something like that.
30:56
But even as you continue on, you know,
30:57
when he gets back to the other side,
30:59
and then you have Jairus, who's a synagogue ruler.
31:02
And I've said this a lot personally on my show,
31:05
but the story of the woman with the problem of blood
31:10
for 12 years, there's something about that story
31:13
and how it connects to Jairus' 12-year-old daughter.
31:15
And do you wanna bet that her problem of blood
31:17
started on the day that little girl was born?
31:20
You know, it's just one of those stories
31:22
that I always skipped right through
31:24
because I was reading it too fast,
31:26
especially in something like Mark,
31:27
where it's like, it takes 17 seconds to read, you know,
31:31
what was 12 years of torture.
31:33
But the way that you broke it down tonight,
31:36
you slowed it down even further for me a little bit.
31:39
And then even just earlier, you're talking about
31:41
the nature of Jesus.
31:42
And you said that no one wanted Jesus to stop
31:44
as he was making his way through the crowd.
31:46
Jairus is leading him to the house
31:48
and everyone around, everyone in this crowd
31:49
knows that Jairus is an important person, right?
31:52
But Jairus wanted Jesus to get to his girl,
31:56
the woman who fought through the crowd
31:58
to get to the edge of his garment
32:00
didn't want him to stop and acknowledge her, right?
32:04
And the apostles certainly didn't want Jesus to stop.
32:06
It's like, hey, you know, we're trying to, you know,
32:08
keep the guys back so that he can make it through this crowd.
32:11
But Jesus stopped and he stopped long enough
32:13
to make the point of lifting her face to call her daughter.
32:16
Another thing that if you read too quickly,
32:18
you lose the fact that this woman was cast completely out.
32:22
She had no family, she was completely defiled.
32:25
Going back to the man that was living, you know,
32:27
in the caves and whatever, like completely defiled
32:29
as a human being.
32:30
And as a man with sons only,
32:33
like I get choked up just thinking about him
32:36
lifting her face to look her in the eye
32:38
and call her daughter when no one had done that
32:41
in over a decade.
32:43
And it's just like, you want to talk
32:44
about the nature of Jesus right there.
32:46
It's like, yeah, I get it.
32:48
Everyone's got a timeline and preferences.
32:50
But watch this.
32:52
Be on my timeline, be on my wavelength, right?
32:55
And it's just, it's an incredible thing.
32:57
Well, I think about in that moment, again,
33:00
well, I've mentioned it that it's stunning that,
33:02
you know, she didn't want that.
33:03
She just wanted my problem solved.
33:05
A lot of people show up to church
33:06
'cause they got a problem presenting issue.
33:08
He's like, no, I want you to meet me.
33:11
So we're gonna deal with your presenting issue
33:12
and your family and your life.
33:14
But I want you, this is what you really need
33:18
is so far beyond that.
33:19
You need to be face to face with the king.
33:21
And he gives her this precious moment.
33:23
But Jerry is just having to stand there
33:25
and watch it going, tick-tock man, what are we doing here?
33:29
You know, and you're like, he's forcing him
33:32
to get on board with Jesus' priorities,
33:34
even when they are extraordinarily inconvenient for him.
33:37
- And he's been leading Bible studies for the last 12 years.
33:40
- Yep.
33:41
- Like, come on, don't I get a little head start here?
33:44
Good last credit, don't I get, you know?
33:46
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a little extreme,
33:49
but I think it's true.
33:50
Every single one of us come to church
33:52
with one of two attitudes
33:53
and they're represented by the thieves on the cross.
33:56
Some of us come, if you are who you say you are,
34:00
then you better do this, save yourself and us.
34:03
But it's just, you know, heal my mom's cancer,
34:06
answer my questions, take away my doubt,
34:08
make me happy, whatever the thing is.
34:11
The other thief just goes, can't get a favor.
34:14
You don't want me to eat anything.
34:17
Could you just remember me?
34:19
That's it, that's the difference.
34:22
I mean, it's kind of like, you know,
34:26
John the Baptist's dad gets put in time out
34:29
'cause he has the same question Mary asked.
34:31
- Same thing, like, how's this going to happen?
34:34
- And it goes like, that's it, shut up,
34:36
talk to you a little while, you know?
34:38
But so it really is, it's like the posture
34:41
at which you come to the Lord.
34:42
These two men are on the cross next to Jesus.
34:45
One comes with an agenda
34:49
and one comes asking for a favor.
34:52
I also think this woman is completely rooted
34:55
in the scriptures and believes the promise of Malachi.
34:59
And the faith that she has in the revealed word of God
35:02
believing it, that's the, that is the one
35:05
who would come with healing and his right wings.
35:06
That's the son of righteousness.
35:08
And if I can just, like God's always faithful
35:11
to his promises.
35:12
So if I can just get to that little seat see,
35:14
that little kind of, that little edge of his garment,
35:17
this is what he promised, I'm not making this up.
35:19
And she's willing to risk it all, you know?
35:23
- Yeah, you didn't hear it, but this whole week
35:25
we've been singing this song called "Tear Off the Roof"
35:28
and I don't know if you know the song,
35:31
but it's like, I'm going to press through the Jesus
35:34
and I've got a faith that's going to get me to him,
35:37
just get me to him.
35:38
And he has more power in the hem of his garment
35:41
than the entire camp at the enemy.
35:43
- Yeah, really.
35:44
- And that's what I believe.
35:45
- It's a great vibe.
35:45
- I really like everybody. - Powerful.
35:48
- Well, you said that the priority of Jesus is faith.
35:52
Like he wants us to trust him.
35:54
He wants us to know him and trust him.
35:56
And Pastor Britt, one of our pastors here
35:58
likes to quote Brandon Manning and says,
36:00
"Trust is our gift to God that he values so much
36:02
that he gave Jesus for the life of it."
36:04
I'm paraphrasing.
36:06
So in the gospels, when Jesus, even in this passage,
36:10
he commends them for their faith.
36:11
Hey, your faith has made you well.
36:13
And as a younger, even still, now it can break my brain
36:18
a little bit of, it feels like they're doing that.
36:22
Like my theological brain says,
36:25
faith is not your own.
36:26
It is a gift of God,
36:26
which is you're going to preach about tomorrow, I'm sure.
36:29
But when he says, hey, your faith has made you well.
36:32
It, I think when I first read that, it sounded like,
36:36
hey, good job, you came to me with the right faith.
36:40
So how is it not their work that they're coming with?
36:43
Just fix that with the, with the faith is a gift.
36:48
And he's saying, hey, you got it right because you had faith.
36:51
- Yeah.
36:52
Yeah, I think it's, yeah, I don't know if I'll get it right.
36:55
I think of Spurgeon, when you mentioned that,
36:56
he'd had a great sermon.
36:58
I don't remember the name of it,
36:59
but he was talking about why not,
37:00
why are we not saved by grace through love?
37:02
Like we're supposed to love people.
37:04
You know, he's like, because all those have an act of element,
37:08
faith is the empty hand.
37:09
Faith is the admission of I have nothing, you know?
37:12
So that's where you can get wrapped around the axle.
37:15
Faith is a work like I'm bringing in.
37:16
He's like, faith is the admission that I've got nothing.
37:19
That's what it is.
37:21
And it lets, it's the acknowledgement,
37:23
but I'm coming empty knowing you are who you say you are.
37:26
I can do what you can say and do.
37:28
But it's that admission of complete powerlessness.
37:31
Now, that's why I think I do think faith, faith is a gift.
37:36
I think Philippians is clear on that,
37:37
but I think he loves it when we step into what he's given us.
37:42
You know, he just likes us working out his favor in real time.
37:48
And I come with empty hands.
37:49
And it lets we write size, like you're saying,
37:53
I know who I am in this deal.
37:55
I'm the guy with nothing.
37:56
And you're the guy with everything.
37:57
But you told me to come and you love that I did it.
38:01
That's great.
38:03
- Yeah, I mean, faith, the great word is bestuo.
38:07
It's translated a bunch of different ways.
38:09
Believe, trust, trust in English, trust might be.
38:12
Kind of gets us there quicker.
38:14
It's like a, like when the Bible talks about faith,
38:19
it's talking about a transfer,
38:22
very much like your final illustration
38:23
about the girl on your back.
38:25
Faith is, I can't do this.
38:30
Will you do this for me?
38:31
That's postuo.
38:33
So that's touching the hem of the garment.
38:35
That's the girl climbing on your back.
38:38
The left's over and you were like, I'm trying to help.
38:40
You're like, it's not helping.
38:42
Durban Gray was here last night.
38:43
And he just kept saying, quit trying to fix yourself.
38:45
Quit trying to fix yourself.
38:46
So faith is, I can't.
38:49
So I'm going to transfer what I believe to be the ability
38:54
for me to be different off of me to you.
38:57
Now we think of it as a work, but it's really not.
39:00
It's more like it's surrendering a work.
39:02
Yeah, you did have to like raise your hand
39:04
and quit fighting back.
39:05
But it's that kind of work.
39:08
And then what you've got to do,
39:09
like your theological questions,
39:12
that a lot of people mix up there.
39:14
So how do you have the ability to understand
39:16
that you have to surrender?
39:18
That's the gift from God.
39:19
It's not that just the four of us are smarter
39:22
than the rest of the world.
39:24
We figured it out and you didn't, you bunch of idiots.
39:27
That's not it.
39:28
It's somehow, in a way, for God's glory,
39:32
then he has gifted us and graced us with eyes to see
39:37
that we need to surrender and transfer.
39:40
I can't do this.
39:42
We'll, same thing that the evil on the cross.
39:44
Can you do me a favor?
39:45
Could you just remember me when you go
39:47
before your father and have it?
39:49
That's great.
39:50
Is that a little preview of tomorrow?
39:52
No, I just made all that up, so I should write that down.
39:55
They recorded it out.
39:56
You only let me preach for like 15 minutes
39:57
or baptized 500 people.
40:01
Do you have any preview of tomorrow?
40:03
Phoenix too?
40:04
Grace, you've been saved?
40:06
Well, I mean, I'm gonna start with the he starts
40:07
with the diagnosis.
40:09
Like, you're not a mistakeer that needs to do better.
40:12
You're dead in your sin.
40:13
But God, being rich in mercy, you know?
40:17
I mean, it's just gonna be straight, straight gospel.
40:21
The probably the biggest thing is when you get to the place
40:25
when you realize you need a savior, okay?
40:30
Doesn't matter how you got there.
40:31
So like, okay, woman with the issue of blood
40:35
or Jerry's his daughter, either one.
40:38
Jesus never is like, so whose fault is this?
40:40
If you're not been taking care of yourself,
40:41
you've been on a bad diet.
40:42
Have you been with some man you shouldn't be with?
40:44
You know what I mean?
40:46
And oftentimes at church, we take way too much time
40:50
on how did you get to this point
40:53
where you're a sinner and you need to be a savior?
40:55
It is irrelevant in that moment.
40:57
Now, it's relevant in regards to the discipleship going forward
41:00
so you don't repeat unwise patterns
41:02
and get back to these kind of places.
41:05
But that is not the point.
41:06
I'm gonna talk about the car wreck, I think,
41:08
that my daughter got in last week.
41:11
And when I came running up there,
41:12
I know the police are gonna figure out whose fault it is
41:15
and insurance, it's irrelevant.
41:17
Everybody there needs an ambulance.
41:20
And the ambulance is here.
41:22
Just get in.
41:24
I think that's some Ephesians too, that's some grace.
41:27
- I think that the 12 years and the daughter parallel thing,
41:37
I mean, you could preach.
41:39
- It's just a big gospel sandwich.
41:41
The whole story story and he calls her a daughter
41:43
and there's a daughter and there's a named man
41:45
and an unnamed woman and I'm just, you know,
41:50
I'm telling you, the crowd is keeping Jesus
41:52
from the one daughter and she fights through the crowd
41:55
and he calls her daughter.
41:56
If you wanna do a really great Bible study
41:58
and be really impressed with how smart you are,
41:59
just connect every dot between that sandwich right there
42:04
that you can and there's an issue of blood
42:06
and the only way the little girl can be healed
42:07
is 'cause Jesus is gonna pour out all his blood.
42:09
He's really got the issue of blood.
42:10
I mean, you can just keep going and keep going
42:12
and keep going and do all the things, man.
42:15
- Jim Bergen talked about chiasm, right?
42:17
- Yeah. - That's what it is.
42:19
- Chayastic structure.
42:20
- Yeah. - I'll talk about your class.
42:22
- Yeah, it's a shame when you're going,
42:23
when you're covering three different moments,
42:25
you got to speed pass some cool stuff.
42:27
- Bro. (laughing)
42:29
- Well, I'm just, I'm gonna lie.
42:30
- It's pretty awesome though.
42:30
- You did what you did 'cause I can't remember the last time
42:32
I saw someone preach where they spent,
42:34
they went through that much scripture
42:37
and just read it slowly and it, again,
42:40
they added the verses later and the chapters and the breaks
42:43
and the, you know, the different titles
42:46
and things like that.
42:48
And so when you read it all and think
42:50
and then you put a fine point on it, they're like,
42:52
look, this was one boat trip, right?
42:54
All this happened in a single boat trip
42:57
and the things that kind of come out from it.
43:00
But in all the things, it goes back to the story
43:02
that you talked about, the Jobe alluded to,
43:04
which was where this girl that had such an issue
43:08
with her joints that she could not have physically made it
43:11
to the destination y'all needed to go to
43:13
to have respite for the night.
43:14
And when she was on your back trying to help you,
43:18
all she was doing was screwing up the process.
43:21
And I think the way that you just said it was stop,
43:23
let me carry you.
43:25
And you didn't need to draw the line for anybody,
43:27
but if it's like, hey, for those of you in the back
43:29
that weren't quite paying attention,
43:31
if you're trying to help God along the way,
43:34
can you please stop?
43:35
Just stop what you're doing because especially again,
43:37
if you're one of those people that you were the front row,
43:40
straight A student, you know, you were writing things
43:43
on your check sheet that you've already done
43:44
just so you can check that box again.
43:46
You want to help God along the way
43:48
because he made you this way.
43:49
So God wants me to do this so I can help him.
43:51
And it's like, no, let go, let go, not let go, let God,
43:55
like all that kind of stuff that looks good on T-shirt,
43:57
but doesn't work in real life.
43:58
But like in this particular situation,
44:00
it's like, look, just stop trying to help.
44:03
You're doing yourself a disservice here.
44:05
Just let me do this for you.
44:06
- Yeah, I laughed when you were like.
44:08
- He took the wheel and he did it.
44:11
- You want to sing again?
44:12
Do you want to sing the rest of the song over here?
44:13
- So here's a great sermon series.
44:15
It's going to be coming to a church
44:16
where sitting in one day, I'll give you credit.
44:18
Dude, what if I did, we did, you did?
44:21
I'm going to do this though.
44:22
I'm going to do a week on the storm, a week on the demon
44:24
and then a week on Jerry's and the woman with issue of blood.
44:28
And then the fourth week when everybody's got it
44:30
kind of in their mind good, then you come back
44:32
and do the flyover, that's where I'll give you credit.
44:35
- There it is.
44:36
Well, that's the thing, that's where Darryl Bach,
44:38
I name dropped him, you know, Keller and Bach
44:40
were so influential in this sermon.
44:44
But his book, "Jesus According to Scriptures,"
44:46
was life-changing for me, that sounds dramatic, but it's not.
44:49
'Cause he shows you what each gospel writer's doing
44:52
and the flow of the book and verses are helpful,
44:55
but they, we tend to break it up a little too fine.
44:57
Sometimes in Miss, he had this big teaching section,
45:01
really jarring, they're trying to figure this out.
45:04
And so then he just goes off.
45:06
And it's really the boys, they get the whole ride
45:08
and they're done going, okay, we're back on.
45:10
And that's how Jesus is moving with them.
45:12
Like, let me give you a lot of information,
45:14
you're struggling to assemble it.
45:16
Let me just remind you who you're dealing with here.
45:18
Storm's not a problem, demon's not a problem,
45:21
disease's not a problem.
45:22
We clear?
45:23
All right, let me start, let me explain again
45:25
my priorities and who I really am.
45:26
You know, and so it's fun to watch him work
45:30
and to try to draw that out and preaching, you know.
45:33
- Well, I wanna thank you, Pastor Ben, for your word
45:35
and for stirring my all for Jesus tonight.
45:39
And this whole week has been, if I think about it,
45:44
the word wow, you know, it's like, that's it.
45:46
It's like, I'm in awe of just Isaiah 64,
45:51
oh, you would rent the heavens and come down and shake,
45:54
like just like the mountain shake.
45:56
And it's been incredible.
45:58
So as we're closing down here,
46:00
how would you summarize what you've experienced
46:03
and your awe being stirred
46:05
or any other final comments before we pray?
46:08
- I think it's just a fulfillment of what, like I've said,
46:12
God's always faithful to his promises.
46:15
This sounds a little like, I don't know,
46:16
this is actually right, but it's almost like
46:20
you can hold God accountable to his scriptures, you know?
46:24
You can be like, hey, you said this, I didn't say this.
46:27
So you said, draw near to you.
46:29
And so we tried, like we fasted, we prayed, we leaned in,
46:34
we've been here every night, we sang you the songs,
46:37
we prayed the prayers, and he's always faithful.
46:40
And he's like, right, and I will draw near to you.
46:42
And my whole prayer for saturated,
46:44
we don't need more sermons, we don't need more songs.
46:47
We need to encounter the living God.
46:50
Now he's in the songs and in the sermons, you know?
46:52
That's just the vehicle to what we need
46:55
and what we need is him.
46:57
And what's crazy, awesome, is,
47:00
and he wants to reveal himself to us.
47:03
He wants to give him, he wants to give us him.
47:07
- Yeah.
47:08
- It's been a joy.
47:11
Thank you, Kyle, for being a part of this week too.
47:14
- Thanks, Joby, for inviting me.
47:15
- Yeah, man.
47:16
One more day.
47:17
- Yeah.
47:18
- Have a good Sunday morning.
47:19
- It's an honor to be here with you guys.
47:20
I'm cheering you on, man, truly.
47:22
It's special what the Lord is doing down here.
47:24
It's awesome.
47:25
- Yeah.
47:26
Wanna pray?
47:27
- Yeah, let's do it.
47:28
Our good and gracious Heavenly Father God,
47:30
we love you more than anything, 'cause you love us first.
47:35
Lord, we know that the Scriptures aren't about us,
47:39
but you encountered real-life actual people,
47:43
like fishermen in a situation and they got scared
47:47
and a guy that was bound up by things
47:49
that you can't explain in the natural
47:52
and a dad with kid pain,
47:54
and there's no pain like kid pain,
47:56
and a woman with issues,
47:58
and the thing that happened is when they met you,
48:04
everything changed.
48:05
And so God, we thank you that your grace changes everything.
48:09
Don't ever let us forget it.
48:10
We pray in Jesus now.
48:12
Amen.
48:12
- Amen.
48:13
- Thank you for listening to this podcast.
48:14
Wherever you're listening to this,
48:15
please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star
48:18
review.
48:19
If you want me to come speak live at your event
48:20
or on your podcast,
48:21
just shoot me an email to info@undonton.life.
48:24
That's I-N-F-O@undonton.life.
48:26
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48:28
and check out our website for everything else,
48:30
including how to donate to keep more content like this
48:31
coming your way.
48:32
Just go to www.undonton.life.
48:35
And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name
48:37
for allowing us to use their music for our content.
48:39
The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua,
48:41
which is off their self-titled debut album
48:43
on Face Down Records.
48:44
The links are in the description.
48:46
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
48:48
Remember, keep pushing back darkness,
48:51
keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
48:55
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
48:57
(upbeat music)
49:05
(upbeat music)