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[MUSIC]
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This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast, I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Let's get into it.
0:23
All right, guys, today we've got a return guest on the podcast.
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His name is Samuel Sey, and you guys absolutely loved his first interview
0:29
that he did with us.
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It is an absolute fan favorite.
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That is episode 276 from earlier this year, but if you're not familiar with Samuel,
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he is a newly married now, Ghanaian, Canadian American, who just moved to the U.S. from
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Canada after he got married, which is always a good choice to upgrade from Canada to America.
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We talk about that in the show.
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And also, according to him, he is committed to addressing racial, cultural, and political
0:51
issues with biblical theology in an attempt to be quick to listen and slow to speak.
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So this guy's been featured on The Daily Wire, The Blaze, Relatable with Ali Bestucky,
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Senators, Ministries, and other places.
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But the reason why he's on the show today, because I didn't think we were going to have
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them on this quickly, again, even though I knew it would happen eventually, is because
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he created quite the stir over this past weekend with his latest blog titled, "Why I am not
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an abolitionist on abortion."
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Now, Samuel Sey is one of the most consistently pro-life people that I know of that's in
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this kind of conservative sphere, but he put on an article saying that he's not an abolitionist
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on abortion.
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He's actually shocked by it, but there's been a lot of drama around all this.
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And after I read and shout out to Ryan, who's on our team here at Undaunted Life for Shooting
1:35
Me The Article, after I read through the article a couple of times, I was like, "Okay.
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I know where people are missing his point, and I know where they're getting mad.
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So I wanted to get Samuel on here, because when you read the words on the page, you're
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not getting all the context, and there's always a little bit of nuance in there that
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you can't exactly absorb.
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So I wanted to make sure that we went basically line by line through the blog and talked
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about these things, because there is this abolitionist movement with the pro-life cause
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that I think is actually, you know, it's a detriment to a lot of people.
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And I'm as pro-life as you could possibly get.
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I think that abortion should be illegal from the moment of conception without any exceptions,
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whatsoever.
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And then if somebody gets an abortion, that the doctor that performs it, the woman that
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gets it, and anyone else involved should be charged with a murder.
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Like it doesn't really get much more pro-life than that.
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But there are people that would say that I'm not an abolitionist because I don't support
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their way of going after laws around abortion.
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So that's what Samuel and I get into today.
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We really get into the weeds.
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I really enjoy this conversation, but I'm not going to keep them from you any longer.
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So without further ado, let's get into it.
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Samuel say, welcome back to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
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It's an honor.
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Thank you for having me back.
2:42
Hey, man.
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I told you this off air.
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You're one of our favorite guests, you know, from our audience for the year this year.
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And I didn't think you'd be coming back this quickly, but we'll get into that in just a
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second, why you're back on the podcast so quickly, but before we get into all that,
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you are now officially a married man.
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Okay?
2:59
So talk to me about that because I think you got married less than a month ago, right?
3:03
Actually it's just now been a month.
3:05
Okay.
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The anniversary was like, I think just yesterday, well, one month anniversary, I mean, anniversary
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because my wife is going to be like, okay, three months anniversary, okay, all right.
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But yeah, it's been just a month that it's pretty amazing.
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It's, I now see the hype about marriage.
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Now I finally get it, you know, I knew about it.
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Now I know it.
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Yeah, I think it's funny.
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You joked off air like you've been married a month.
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So you're probably well equipped to write, you know, a book on marriage or something like
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that.
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What's funny about that is I just got pitched a podcast interview from a publisher from
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a couple that's not been married that much longer that does have a book out.
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And so it's just like, oh my gosh, how do I navigate this where I don't make these people
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mad?
3:48
But yeah, that doesn't make sense.
3:49
So you got to help me here.
3:51
Because in the last podcast, I had to introduce you as a Ghanaian or a Ghanaian Canadian.
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And even if when I say the word Canada, it just makes me feel funny.
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But are you officially now a Ghanaian, Canadian American?
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Is that how this works now?
4:06
It's funny.
4:07
It's funny you see that because yesterday, a couple of days ago, I was actually playing
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soccer with some Mexicans and as a Ghanaian, I love soccer and I'm like, oh man, you know,
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he's Americans.
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They don't love soccer that much, you know, they might think, you know, it's the pansy
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sport or something.
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So I finally see these Mexicans and we play some soccer together.
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And then as I'm there, they're asking me where I'm from.
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And I'm like, huh, see, in Canada, people ask me where I'm from.
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I'm saying I'm from Ghana.
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But now people ask me where I'm from.
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I say I'm from Canada.
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So I mean, I'm not an American yet, I'm going to be Lord willing very soon.
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But I guess you could still say I'm a Ghanaian Canadian who is living in America.
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I'm not going to say that.
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It's too many things.
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It's too many qualifiers.
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And I'm telling you this right now, when you get that American citizenship, you put
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all the rest of it to bed.
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You're an American, [inaudible].
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All right.
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So we put Ghana to bed.
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We put Canada to bed.
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You're an American.
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Are you okay with that?
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I'm very okay with that.
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You know, I always laugh whenever Twitter tells me that you sent me a reply.
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I always know it has something to do with aren't you happy you're not on the land of freedom?
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It's always that makes me laugh every time.
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Hey, what's funny is I know that there are people that don't realize that you and I know
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each other.
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And when they see my replies to yourself on Twitter, they get so mad.
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I'm like, guys, like, and I just let it go.
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I don't ever qualify it.
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I don't ever really get into it.
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But we really need to get into the media today show because I don't know if you know
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this, Samuel, but you don't [inaudible] everybody off.
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All right.
5:32
So we need to kind of get a little bit of the backstory to this.
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Well, on May the 21st of 2022, you posted a new blog on your site, slow to write dot
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com entitled why I am not an abolitionist on abortion.
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Okay.
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So knowing what I know about you and your opinions and public declarations about the
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abortion topic, the title 100% caught me off guard.
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Okay.
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Now I saw you post it, but I didn't have time at the moment because I was dealing with the
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kid or whatever.
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So I didn't read it immediately.
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But then a member of my team, Ryan, he's actually the guy on my team that turned me
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on to your stuff to begin with.
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He sent it to me and wanted to get my opinion on it.
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And so I basically read it while a sick kid was sleeping on me and kind of going all the
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way through it.
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So before we, I guess, dig into the meat of the blog, let's start small here.
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Why write the blog and why do it now?
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And then then we'll start tearing through it.
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Oh, that's a great question.
6:23
Yeah.
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So I've been wondering why this article for two, three years, but one of the reasons why
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I hadn't done it yet is because I, at the time, I didn't think was as relevant.
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I was, I wanted to make sure that it would be helpful to all groups, other as pro-life
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people, a volitionist or anybody who may not be aware of it.
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So, and then also, you know, in the past two, three years, something would always come up
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where I put in a back burner and, and you know, whenever you're, I'm sure, you know,
6:55
when you're, when you're creating a, whether it's a podcast show, you may have some ideas
6:59
or something that you want to do, but then certain things come up that makes you just
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kind of push that away.
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And that's what the abolitionist topic was for me.
7:06
So what really made me want to talk about it now was not a Roe v. Wade is seemingly
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about to end, it, it, it leads to, you know, it brings back the topic of what is the best
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way to go forward.
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Also, you know, there've been other debates right now between a volitionist and pro-life
7:26
people in terms of, so in Louisiana, there was a bill, a seemingly abolitionist bill that
7:33
was, you know, had received a lot of pushback from pro-life people, which has led to a lot
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of outrage against a volitionist.
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And then also, I have a lot of friends, some very good friends of mine who are becoming
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a volitionist.
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And I think, you know, as I mentioned before, I don't have to, I disagree with abolitionists,
7:52
but I consider that my ally still.
7:54
So someone can be a volitionist and I'm okay with it.
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The problem is, I think a lot of volitionists are becoming quite bitter or have embraced
8:01
abolitionism because of bitterness against pro-life people or even mainstream or mainstream
8:06
Eva or big Eva.
8:07
So anyway, those are all the reasons why I ended up creating or writing that blog.
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And as you said, it's, it's ticked off a lot of people on both sides.
8:17
Well, and that's, that's why I reached back out to you because it's like, we'll get into
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it a little bit later because I do want to kind of give my opinions on the issue and
8:25
because, you know, I read through it multiple times, you know, I read through it knowing
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what I knew about our last conversation.
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And so, you know, Samuel, where possible today, I'm going to read your direct quotes from the
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blog in order of how they appear.
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So that'll be easy for the audience as well.
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And then just let you elucidate the point further in your own, I guess spoken words.
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Is that cool with you?
8:43
Yeah, of course.
8:44
Okay.
8:45
So, so let's just go to the opening of the blog here.
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This is a quote from the very, very top.
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This might surprise many of you, but I am not an abolitionist on abortion.
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So many people in my evangelical tribe have become abolitionists.
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I haven't joined them.
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I am pro life.
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I am my anti-abortion, but I'm not an abolitionist.
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Well sort of.
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Okay.
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So we need to do a little definitional work right from the beginning.
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So let's define our terms so we know what we're talking about.
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What is your definition of pro life?
9:09
What's your definition definition of anti-abortion, but then most importantly, what is your definition
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of what an abolitionist on this topic is?
9:15
Exactly.
9:16
Yeah.
9:17
That's a great way to start off.
9:18
So when I say I'm pro life, I mean, I guess two things, one, I'm an anti-abortion, naturally.
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The other in the more relevant way is that I am part of the pro life movement and part
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of the pro life movement, at least that's a concern as this topic, is that I support incrementalism,
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which basically means that I am anti-abortion.
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I believe that that we should ban abortion completely, utterly with zero exceptions.
9:46
All abortions are evil, every single one.
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However, I understand, and I'm sure we'll address this very soon, that we have to be
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realistic in terms of what is able to pass in terms of what pro life bills can actually
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pass, either in Canada or America.
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Therefore, I am okay supporting some bills that do not completely end or ban abortion
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right away.
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For example, the heartbeat laws in Ohio and other places, or the Mississippi or Texas
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laws that are out there, I support those bills.
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Even though they do not completely ban all abortion, I know the intent.
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They're trying to chip away at the abortion laws or the abortion exceptions in the country.
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Now, a abolitionist is someone who is also pro life, but they wouldn't call themselves
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pro life because they want to separate themselves from the pro life movement.
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They're also anti-abortion.
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The difference is they are known for a few things I mentioned in the article, but especially
10:53
they are known for being an immediateist, meaning that they are against incremental bills.
10:58
They believe that if you are anti-abortion, and especially if you are a Christian, if
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you promote a bill that does not ban all abortion, you're promoting a bill that is unjust.
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You're promoting a bill that says it's okay to kill some babies, and therefore, they say
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that the pro life movement or incrementalists like me are immoral and unjust.
11:20
Yeah, I think that that's a very good summary of that, and you really do address that in
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the very early parts of the blog, and I want to read another quote to you here because this
11:28
kind of gets us past some of the definitional work.
11:31
"Therefore, though my pro life advocacy is gospel-centered, because of my support for
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step-by-step gradual or incremental pro life bills, some Christians wouldn't describe
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me as an abolitionist.
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In fact, because of my incrementalist approach to making abortion illegal, anti-abortion
11:46
abolitionists say pro-life Christians like me do not want to abolish abortion.
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We simply want to regulate it.
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In other words, according to them, we do not want to ban abortion.
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We only want to reduce it, and I believe that they believe this type of a thing, but I don't
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know that they ever are fair with how they're judging somebody's worldview or point of view
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on how to do these particular types of things.
12:12
And I guess it's because they have an idea of what being appropriately pro-life in their
12:20
head is, and they get to determine whether or not you are opted into that group.
12:24
Is that fair to say?
12:25
Very much so.
12:26
Yeah.
12:27
One of the things that I said, and I know we're going to go through the article, I made
12:32
sure to say that while I am pro-life, I am distinct, I am different from other people
12:38
who call themselves pro-life.
12:39
The same way to be fair to be fair to abolitionists, there are some abolitionists who would say
12:43
that they are also different from certain kinds of abolitionists too.
12:46
This is the nature of words in general, right?
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You can claim to be a certain group, you know, so for example, I'm a Calvinist.
12:53
Well, they're different kinds of Calvinists.
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I'm reformed.
12:55
They're different kinds of reformed people.
12:56
You have the Dutch Reformed people, you have the Baptist Reformed Baptist, you have different
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kinds of reformed people, right?
13:03
Even saying the word Christian, I'm not a Catholic.
13:06
There are some Catholics who say they are Christians, right?
13:08
But we are very different.
13:09
So words can mean, you know, one word can mean different things, but some person who
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was saying it.
13:16
So one of the things that concerns me is that abolitionists, they often tend to mischaracterize
13:21
people like myself and place people like me in the same camp as so-called pro-life people
13:26
who really do believe that we should abandon all abortion.
13:30
Yeah.
13:31
I think that that's an important distinction because to be fair, there are people in the
13:34
pro-life cause that don't think that abortion should be banned outright.
13:38
And I find that to be an untenable position.
13:41
But the thing that I do appreciate from the blog as well is that you do name names.
13:45
So you talk about this first group.
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These are the people that abolitionists say aren't sufficiently pro-life enough.
13:50
So you mentioned Canadian Center for Bioethical Reform, Greg Cunningham's Center for the Bioethical
13:54
Reform, Mark Harrington's created equal, Scott Clusendorf's Life Training Institute and secular
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pro-life groups, like Lila Rose's live action, although I don't think you can actually say
14:06
that live action is secular because of Lila Rose's Catholic beliefs.
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That's why she does what she does.
14:11
But then there's the second group, which are the abolitionists that are apparently doing
14:16
everything right.
14:17
So abolish human abortion, free the states, rescue those founders ministries who you are
14:21
affiliated with, and apology, otherwise known as in abortion now.
14:25
And so here's the thing.
14:26
And I kind of have to flow on this a little bit.
14:28
I've been trying to get Jeff Durbin on the show for over a year to talk about this particular
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subject.
14:33
It has been one of the craziest experiences because every time I would reach out to his
14:37
people, they'd be like, he's so busy right now, can you reach back out in six months?
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And it's like, okay.
14:41
And then I would do it.
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And then they would say that again.
14:43
And then I would do it again.
14:44
But this last time I booked him four months in advance of our date and they canceled like
14:48
the day of his appearance on our show, and which is just crazy to me.
14:52
It's like, I have an easier time getting sitting Congressman in number one New York Times best
14:55
sellers to come on the show, but apparently I can't get Jeff Durbin.
14:58
But if I were to have him on the show, which it doesn't look how many be able to make happen,
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I was going to ask him specifically about this because he is so vehemently in the abolitionist
15:07
camp to where if there were two separate bills, right?
15:11
So hey, let's take the state of New York where abortion is legal up until the moment
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of birth.
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And I would say, hey, this is either going to stay on the books in this state or here's
15:21
this incrementalist bill that bans abortion after the first trimester.
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I think in order to make this prideful point, he would say, no, it's all or nothing.
15:32
And so what he would invariably be doing would be damning a lot of those kids in that state
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to the slaughter, right?
15:38
And again, he wouldn't characterize it that way.
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But unfortunately, I've tried all my best.
15:43
So I wanted to give him an audience, you know, with my show to kind of talk through this,
15:47
but I think it's a very, very untenable position because it's like these people just think
15:53
that all of a sudden everybody in every house chamber or congressional chamber in the United
15:58
States is just going to, oh, yeah, the gospel is real.
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And God rules over everything, this Deonomy type of mindset, which just isn't realistic
16:06
in my view.
16:07
Exactly.
16:08
Not just that.
16:09
I'm so glad you mentioned that.
16:10
Not just that, to make it even worse and frankly shocking, abolitionists believe that a truly
16:15
abolitionist bill, a truly immediate his bill has to, has to not just ban all abortion.
16:22
It has to punish women who get abortions as well too.
16:25
Now I actually am okay with that.
16:27
I hear that the poor life movement keeps saying that if you're, if you are on the board of
16:31
women, you're a victim.
16:32
No, you're not.
16:33
You killed someone.
16:34
Your baby is the victim, not you, right?
16:35
So you have to stop, you know, to the audience, that kind of sissy kind of thinking, all right?
16:40
But, but more than that, you know, the abolitionists, they actually would not vote for a bill.
16:46
They would not support a bill that would ban all abortion with zero exceptions.
16:50
If, if it did not also punish or penalize the woman, that to me is crazy.
16:57
Even though I'm like, hey, guys, I agree with you.
16:58
I agree that women who kill their babies should be punished for that.
17:03
You're telling me you will not be a willing to save all babies.
17:07
If they don't include that part in the bill to, to, to consider murder, to consider abortion
17:13
as a homicide, why not just pass the bill, support the bill and then fight for that eventually,
17:19
which is again, the incrementalist mindset.
17:21
But again, they're so dogmatic on this.
17:23
And frankly, I agree with you.
17:24
There's so much pride on this.
17:25
There's so much of a puritan aspects, not in a theological, biblical way, but this ungodly
17:32
purity that they're seeking on this, that concerns me, where they're willing to call
17:36
me a comparator.
17:37
Now, I'm not trying to say that I can't compromise.
17:40
I'm a sinner.
17:41
Of course I can.
17:42
But I'm called a comparator because I'm saying, hey, guys, look, so for example, in Canada,
17:47
there was a bill, I mentioned this in the article, so I don't get that if I'm going to hit myself
17:51
too much here.
17:52
No, you're good.
17:53
You're good.
17:54
Yeah.
17:55
In Canada, we are one of only two nations in the entire world with zero laws and abortion,
18:02
zero restrictions.
18:03
It is legal in Canada as it is in New York to kill a baby, if essentially, frankly, the
18:12
very day before they're born, right?
18:15
Now, this is important because in the late 1980s and early 1990s, our then prime minister
18:21
at the time was his name is Brian Mulroney, he tried to push an incremental bill, which
18:28
would have been one of the better pro-life bills at the time.
18:33
But some of the Canadians, pro-life advocates here, who were not in certain positions, but
18:37
they were similar.
18:38
They wanted very radical bills now.
18:40
It's a radical.
18:41
I mean, good bills, right?
18:42
Good bills.
18:43
But they were thinking that we want almost a near perfect bill, or none at all.
18:48
Well, they got what they wanted.
18:49
Now, over now, almost 40 years afterward, we do not have a single baby in Canada who was
18:56
protected by a law against abortion, not a single one.
18:59
And because we did not have any progress on momentum, we are still where we are, where
19:04
today we don't have a good pro-life movement here.
19:09
But politically, we don't have a lot of traction because of that.
19:11
And one thing I'll say about this, in Canada, there are only 14, sorry, only 14 people.
19:19
1% of people here are completely pro-life, only 14%.
19:24
But 90% of Canadians, when they are informed that they're, wait a minute, we don't have
19:29
a law in our country, they say, oh, wow, we want a law in Canada.
19:33
Now again, only 14% want a bill that would completely ban all abortion.
19:39
But 90% want a bill that would at least limit abortion.
19:44
So if you are a pro-life person, or even an anti-abortion person in Canada, and you have
19:49
the choice of being able to save thousands of babies in the country, if you passed a
19:55
bill that would ban late-term abortion in the country, you wouldn't do it, you wouldn't
20:00
want to save babies.
20:01
And then, fine, if you say you won't do it, fine.
20:04
If I want to do it for the very purpose of trying to save babies, I'm called a compromise
20:08
or evil or complicit in injustice, it's ridiculous.
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Yeah, I think one of the best things that abolitionists do is they do call out these squishy
20:47
pro-life organizations that aren't as pro-life as you might think, because I agree with a
20:52
lot of people in the abolitionist side, there are a lot of people in the pro-life side of
20:55
things that actually don't want abortion to be criminalized nationwide here in the United
20:59
States of America, because then they won't have any power anymore, they won't be able
21:03
to make money, they won't have a job, so they're basically taking themselves out of a job.
21:07
So I want to kind of pull out of the blog and then we'll go back into it, because you've
21:11
already talked about how you're reformed and Calvinists and all those different things,
21:13
because I'm going to pick on those people a little bit, because from reformed theology
21:18
type people and Calvinist type people, I get this incessant and unquenchable desire to
21:23
argue about everything, and there is this unbelievably smug and intellectual arrogance
21:30
that I get when I'm around a lot of people that think that way.
21:33
Now I know a lot of great people, John Cooper comes to mind, who's very reformed theologically
21:37
and Calvinist, who is none of those things, and I tell him that often whenever I pick
21:40
on reformed theology and Calvinist, but it's this intellectual snobbery that I think leads
21:45
to these types of ideas to where it's like, "Oh, we're not getting every single thing
21:49
that we want without compromise."
21:50
Okay, well we're right, and there's part of me, Samuel, that thinks it's so complicated,
21:56
reformed theology and Calvinism and systematic theology and all these things, that these
22:00
people feel so accomplished that they understand it, and they like that it's somewhat inaccessible
22:06
to the everyday man, I had a guy that I talked to off air and I'm gonna have him on later,
22:10
so I'm not talking trash about him, but I said, "I don't know that a reformed theologian
22:15
or that a Calvinist can tell me in one sentence how someone can be saved," and what he did
22:20
whenever I said that to him, he launched into a 10-minute explanation as to the systematic
22:25
theology of Calvinist thought, and I'm like, "This is the exact thing that I was talking
22:29
about.
22:30
This is you're making it so unbelievably complicated, but here is a real world, because most people
22:34
don't care about the illogical arguments and isegesis versus exegesis and all these different
22:38
things, but here's a real world application of that intellectual snobbery leading to babies
22:45
being murdered, and I don't get it.
22:47
Why would someone do that?"
22:49
You know, as I said, I am reformed a Calvinist, of course, I believe that's true, but you
22:58
know something, as I mentioned, this is why I said what I said in the beginning of the
23:03
article that it will surprise some people that I am not an abolitionist, because this
23:08
is the first time that on a major issue, I am not aligned with my so-called camp.
23:16
This is the first time.
23:18
Now I've never wanted to compromise my true thinking on something because of my camp.
23:24
I just have always agreed with my so-called camp, but you know, a lot of people have addressed
23:30
the, very much what you're saying right now, they've been saying that to me for a long
23:36
time, and I would see it in some cases, but I never thought too much about it.
23:40
But on this issue, I'm seeing it more.
23:43
I'm seeing how, because again, when people, for example, by the means of all these snobs,
23:50
I've had so many comments saying, "Well, it's okay, Sam doesn't get it, he just doesn't
23:54
get it," but when he does, he'll be like, "Wow, of course, I'm thinking, do you realize
23:59
how arrogant you are that you think I've not done my homework, that because I don't agree
24:06
with you, it's just because right now, I don't have the, frankly, the intellectual capacity
24:10
right now to get what you get, but when I do, I'll just be like you."
24:17
Man, is that what people like me have been saying about other people on different issues
24:23
for a long time?
24:24
If so, man, shame on me and God help me repent, because I don't want to think that way whatsoever.
24:31
I think that's an important thing for you to think through, and again, if I were to plant
24:35
my flag, and I've said this on other shows and other interviews, if I were to plant my
24:37
flag somewhere, it would be very, very close to the reformed Calvinist theology and way
24:42
of looking at things, but there are just some things that I can't get a Calvinist to give
24:46
me a straight answer.
24:47
I'm like, "Hey, why is there such a thing if election is real and you don't really have
24:52
any choice in the matter, why are there Calvinists that are missionaries?"
24:56
That doesn't make any sense to me, and you know who also doesn't make sense to anybody
24:59
that's paying attention, and it's kind of one of those things that I do get that idea.
25:02
It's like, "Oh, you'll get there one day, little boy," but it does drive me absolutely
25:05
insane, but we need to come out of that world, let's go back into the blog, because you do
25:09
a little bit of definitional work, and I'm not going to make you go into it because you
25:11
put it in the article, but I will read it here.
25:13
You talk about gates, that's G-A-T-E-S, that stands for gospel-centered, aligned providentially
25:19
through the church, engaged biblically, sought immediately without exception or compromise.
25:25
So that is how abolitionists approach these bills that they're trying to get past in these
25:29
states.
25:30
And then here's also a quote from the article here, "Appolitionists summarize their immediatists
25:34
approach in what they call the five components of abolition bills," so we've got to make
25:39
sure that we understand this.
25:40
Number one, outlaw abortion from conception.
25:43
Two, include no exceptions for abortion.
25:45
Three, criminalize abortion itself and establish equal justice for the pre-born.
25:49
Four, do not submit to the unconstitutional ruling of Roe and five, repeal or supersede
25:54
all statutes which allow for abortion.
25:57
So amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, I agree, I'm with you, but this is where the rubber meets
26:02
the road, so forgive me for teasing this out a little bit.
26:05
So take for instance, as you mentioned in your blog, the bill that just got passed in my home
26:09
state that I'm living in right now, the state of Oklahoma.
26:11
This bill effectively bans abortion from the mode of conception, that's effectively what
26:15
it does.
26:16
However, the bill does have exceptions for what they call necessary abortions to save
26:21
the life of the mother, which as you rightly point out is not a real category and exceptions
26:26
for conception caused by rape or incest.
26:29
Also, the bill does not allow for abortionists nor the women seeking the abortion to be charged
26:33
criminally for those acts which I disagree with.
26:35
Now personally, I'm right now working with Governor Stitt's office, the governor of our
26:39
great state of Oklahoma, to get him on the podcast, you know, we're trying to time it
26:43
for after the Roe v. Wade officially does come down or the Dobbs decision does come down.
26:48
And I do want to discuss those things with him directly.
26:50
I do want to ask him about that because he's on record saying, any piece of pro-life legislation
26:54
that hits my desk, I will sign.
26:56
So he's not exactly driving those things.
26:58
He's just signaling that those are the things that he wants to do.
27:02
So that bill in Oklahoma does not pass the abolitionist criteria that we just talked about,
27:06
which again, just as a reminder, one, outlaw abortion from conception to include no exceptions
27:10
for abortion, three criminalized abortion itself in a status equal justice for the pre-board
27:13
for do not submit to the unconstitutional ruling of row and five repeal or supersede
27:18
all statutes which allow for abortion.
27:20
So I put all that set up to get to hear.
27:23
Presumably abolitionists would not support the most pro-life bill of any state in the union.
27:32
It makes no sense to me, I have no idea how they can get there all the mental gymnastics
27:38
they have to do to get to that point to where they would criticize.
27:41
I had people reach out to me directly, fans of the show, whenever I was so excited about
27:45
happening in the state of Oklahoma, they're like, "Oh, well, if this is challenged and
27:48
cords got this and it's got that," and it's like, "Is that what we're focusing on right
27:52
now?"
27:53
Because effectively, abortion would be eradicated in my state and it's just not good enough.
27:56
I don't understand it.
27:58
See, this is, I'm so glad you mentioned this because a lot of people, I know not all abolitionists
28:05
think this way.
28:06
I've had some abolitionists reach out to me saying, "You know what, Sam, I've come
28:09
up with an abolitionist but I think just like you," which is why I said in the beginning
28:13
of the article that, "Look, by the very definition of the word, I'm an abolitionist.
28:17
Every truly pro-life person is."
28:20
But abolitionism has become associated with the word "immediateism," right?
28:25
Immediate, complete, or complete ban or nothing at all.
28:29
And you know, I know a lot of abolitionists think the same way I do here, but many seemingly
28:35
seem to see abortion as theoretical.
28:38
I don't see it as a theory.
28:40
I see that right now you have babies all over the country who are about to get crushed.
28:46
And I, by the grace of God, have an opportunity to save some of them, some of them.
28:53
That means I will do whatever I can.
28:56
Now, they hate it when we say this, but it's the reality here.
28:58
It's not theoretical.
28:59
Babies are being killed.
29:00
This is not a matter of, well, you know, no, babies are being killed as we speak.
29:08
So I am not going to be feeling badly that I am going to, that I want to save as much
29:14
as possible.
29:15
Now, again, so many incrementalists are not really, you know, truly completely pro-life.
29:23
So many incrementalists just want to ban most abortions, not all abortions.
29:29
The reality is, in politics, frankly, it's a negotiation.
29:34
It is what it is.
29:36
You know, it's easy to say that you know what, don't negotiate with terrorists.
29:40
That's easy to say.
29:41
Okay.
29:42
Still, if a terrorist tells you, and you, I am going to kill every single child in this
29:48
building, but you know for a fact that you could possibly negotiate to save some of them.
29:54
That maybe they'll say, you know what, we can kill a thousand babies.
29:57
But maybe you can somehow negotiate that you will save 300 of those babies.
30:03
You might think, well, just theoretical, although 200 babies are made in the image of God.
30:07
Yes, the other ones, of course, are also made in the image of God too.
30:11
But the reality is, I'm not able to save them.
30:14
But God, by His grace, has given me perhaps an ability to save 300 of them.
30:19
I will gladly save them, and I will be unsatisfied that the others are still being killed.
30:25
But then I'll say, you know what, not that I've saved 300, now let's try to save all.
30:30
But if I can save all, you know what, maybe save 200 more.
30:33
And then if I can save 200 more, you know what I mean, you just keep going.
30:36
I want to say, let's save as few as possible and stop it.
30:41
Well, I guess some people are saying that, but that's not really the truly pro-life
30:45
people that I would say I'm aligned with.
30:47
Well, it's like, it's like, take the win when it's given to you.
30:50
Like, a lot of people that listen to this podcast obviously understand the game of football,
30:53
and that's American football, not that nonsense y'all played in Africa growing up.
30:57
But like, with football, do you want to score a touchdown on every single play?
31:02
Yes.
31:03
Is that available to you on every single play?
31:05
No.
31:06
I mean, you shouldn't try, absolutely not.
31:08
But if the 75 yard touchdown pass isn't available to you, are you really telling me you're not
31:13
going to take the 20 yard pass in a first down?
31:15
Are you really going to say that to me?
31:17
But because, and here's the other thing, the negotiation with terrorists thing, we do it
31:20
all the time.
31:21
This, we don't negotiate with terrorists.
31:22
That's television.
31:24
That's Hollywood.
31:25
We legitimately do that all the time.
31:27
You morons.
31:28
But also whenever you go beyond that, I feel like a lot of these people are just closed
31:31
off intellectually.
31:32
When you talk about that in the podcast, you talk about how, you know, pro-life Christians,
31:36
the squishy ones have a lot to learn from abolitionists.
31:39
The abolitionists, again, being as smug as they are, they feel no need to listen to you.
31:44
They're shut off intellectually.
31:45
They're like, there's nothing that you can teach me about this.
31:47
Now, I will say, I have very, very few things in my life that I am like that on, and one
31:52
of them is this issue.
31:54
There's nothing that you can do.
31:55
I'm completely intellectually closed off on what is growing inside the, the, the belly of
32:00
a human being when they're pregnant.
32:02
Like from the moment DNA sprouts into existence and that's the only way in the universe that
32:06
that happens whenever there's a one-celled zygote that's created, you can't convince
32:10
me that's not a living human being.
32:13
But they're closed off in a different way and it's just, it's very, very interesting
32:17
to me.
32:18
But I do want to get to another quote because this is probably the quote that [inaudible] the
32:22
most people off.
32:23
If I had to guess, so let me read the quote here.
32:26
If incrementalism is sinful, every abolitionist who votes for the Republicans is a hypocrite.
32:31
If incrementalism is sinful, every abolitionist who voted for Donald Trump is guilty of unrepinnant
32:37
sin.
32:38
Candidly abolitionists are the anti-abortion version of Never Trumpers.
32:42
So this brings up a lot of stuff, right?
32:44
So you definitely ripped off a scab for a lot of people because there are Republicans that
32:48
love Trump.
32:49
They're super Magga.
32:50
They're Republicans that tolerate Trump.
32:51
There's Republicans that hate Trump.
32:52
They're Never Trumpers.
32:53
And this also brings up the point that Donald Trump, if the Roe v. Wade decision and you
32:58
know, the Casey decision, if those are overturned immediately, Donald J. Trump becomes the most
33:04
pro-life president in the history of the United States of America and one of the greatest,
33:08
all at the exact same time.
33:10
And I don't personally believe that Donald Trump is pro-life in his heart, which is another
33:14
thing that people need to reckon with is I don't care how you feel in your heart.
33:18
I care how you legislate because there are people that are like, ah, you know, I don't
33:23
think abortion's fine, but I guess, you know, politically, I'm okay with a woman's right
33:26
to choose.
33:27
That's the Joe Biden position.
33:28
It's like, you can't have it that way.
33:30
You can't split the baby and I mean that full pun intended.
33:33
But is that the thing if, because I guessed that that was the sentence or really block
33:37
that made people the most angry?
33:39
Am I right on that?
33:40
Is that the nerve you touched?
33:41
You're very right.
33:42
And the reason why I would say that might sound surprising, it's because it's the one
33:46
argument that no one really wanted to touch.
33:48
That's exactly how I knew you would offended them because everyone has been dancing around
33:53
the real issue.
33:54
I'm like, look guys, engage in my argument and no one is saying this because like, you
33:57
know, if you, if you say that incrementalism is evil to compromise, but then you vote for
34:05
a guy, everyone knows it's not truly pro life in his heart, a guy who was not a Christian,
34:10
a guy who has poor character now, he's, you know, politicians are the same way too, but
34:16
let's face it, a guy is not a Christian, right?
34:18
So if you vote for a guy like him, who you, who's not the ideal president, who is not
34:24
the perfect president, why?
34:27
The argument has always been, well, you know what, he's a lot better than Hillary Clinton.
34:31
Sure.
34:32
A lot better than even the other Republicans.
34:33
Well, what's the difference between the incrementalist view than on the pro life bills, right?
34:39
So they're hypocrites.
34:40
I know some abolitionists who are celebrating the fact that, wow, as you said, if, if Roe
34:46
V Wade, now, of course, they don't think very much of Roe V Wade really being banned
34:50
or being overturned or not, but still they're like, man, see, this is why we voted for Trump.
34:56
Well, why do you care?
34:58
Because again, Trump is an abolitionist.
35:00
How does this impact any of what you guys have been advocating for as a volitionist?
35:05
So they're very much inconsistent and also, frankly, to, you know, yeah, the, the hypocrites
35:10
over this issue, which is, let me, let me hop in here because you brought something up.
35:14
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but like you brought something up that I think is a game changer
35:18
that, at least it wasn't my brain.
35:20
Are abolitionists going to be mad when Roe V Wade is overturned?
35:23
Yes, because like you would think if they were being intellectually honest to their position,
35:30
that obviously Roe V Wade doesn't eradicate or, you know, make criminalize abortion in
35:34
the United States of America.
35:36
As I've talked about on the show, it just basically goes back to the States.
35:39
So it goes back to all these States that have had some level of incrementalism or some level
35:44
of abortion all the way up into beyond birth, which is the perinatal period, which is what
35:48
we're seeing in the state of California right now, where a baby can be killed 28 days up
35:53
to 28 days after they're born because it's still inside the perinatal window, right?
35:57
So what is that?
36:00
I think I just short circuited my brain, right?
36:02
Because like I honestly think that they're not going to be excited.
36:06
They're not going to praise God for Roe V Wade being overturned.
36:09
Like Samuel, I go to a church that is super duper white in East Edmond in a very white
36:14
area.
36:15
We don't raise hands.
36:16
We don't raise our voices.
36:17
We don't do any of those things.
36:18
And our super milk toast straight down the middle pastor just mentioned the fact that
36:23
Roe V Wade might be overturned.
36:25
And there was Hooten and Hollerin and A Menon in that room, and it was beautiful.
36:30
I get like upset and like teary-eyed just thinking about that.
36:34
Are abolitionists really not going to take part in that celebration?
36:37
No, they won't.
36:38
So they won't get mad that Roe V Wade is being overturned.
36:41
It will be mad that Christians will be celebrating it being overturned.
36:45
Because see the thing, some abolitionists say that you and I would be worshiping Roe
36:49
V Wade.
36:50
They actually say this.
36:51
They say that we are analyzing Roe V Wade by thinking that it is this relevant ruling.
36:59
Because they think that, well, the states can just pass any law they can and defy Roe
37:03
V Wade without realizing that, well, yeah, you can do that momentarily until the Supreme
37:09
Court takes it and then shuts it down.
37:12
Or well, at least I was before Trump's nominations to the Supreme Court.
37:17
Now, seemingly we'll be overturning Roe V Wade.
37:19
But yes, they will not celebrate because they don't think it's relevant.
37:22
They don't think it's worth it.
37:24
They won't celebrate.
37:25
They will not rejoice until we end all abort, now of course that's all of us, right?
37:31
All of us are thinking that we should not, even when we end all abortion, there's still
37:35
work to do to keep women from killing their babies, of course, and never, we will never
37:39
stop fighting for injustice until Christ returns.
37:42
At the same time, they would not celebrate because in their mind, well, there's no victory
37:47
here.
37:48
The only real victory in their mind is not if, as you said in the football argument, you
37:53
are moving, you know, you're moving incrementally towards touchdown, touchdown, touchdown.
37:59
God, you sound so Canadian right now.
38:02
Come on, Samuel.
38:03
I was doing so well until I removed my…
38:06
You're an American now.
38:07
You need to get with the program, all right?
38:10
Oh, but, but basically unless you get a touchdown on the very first row, that's it in their
38:16
mind.
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38:46
So I wonder, so you're bringing up a lot of things here.
38:52
So let's say, I don't see this happening, but Lord willing it does, Roe v. Wade, Dovie
38:58
Casey, those are overturned.
39:00
It goes back to the states and over a certain period of time, we accomplish getting a federal
39:04
ban on abortion or we get all 50 states.
39:07
We collect all 50 states to where they ban abortion from the moment of conception.
39:12
You brought up something very interesting, and I don't know if you didn't know a purpose
39:14
or if it just kind of came out, women will still kill their babies, even then.
39:20
There are a lot of sinful things that people do that are illegal, that have been illegal,
39:23
like people selling their bodies, you know, for sex, people drinking and driving, people
39:27
doing all these different things.
39:28
And a lot of people get away with these things.
39:30
They're never caught.
39:31
They're never actually penalized for these things.
39:34
I guess I would want to talk to a diet in the wool abolitionist about what then?
39:39
So you've gotten what you wanted, right?
39:42
You've criminalized everything and everyone that has anything to do with the abortion
39:46
procedure in America.
39:48
Now what do we do about the women that still do that?
39:50
And I would think, Samuel, and I honestly believe this, that they would shift into pastoral
39:56
mode in caring for these women, trying to confine these women, trying to convince them
40:01
before they do that, to please put the baby up for adoption or do something else very similar
40:05
to what they would maybe do outside of an abortion mill.
40:08
Do you agree with that assessment?
40:09
Yes, I do.
40:11
Yeah.
40:12
So, all right, that brought something else up, but I'll read one last quote here from
40:15
the blog.
40:16
And guys, the blog will be in the show notes, it's somewhat lengthy, but it's worth your
40:19
time to read.
40:20
But let me read this last one here.
40:22
Incrementalist pro-life bills are not ideal.
40:24
However, they are effective and unfortunately necessary.
40:28
Like every genuine pro-life person, I'm happy to save as many babies as possible through
40:31
incrementalism until we're finally able to ban abortion with zero exceptions.
40:36
And so that's kind of the crux and foundation of your entire blog and your entire argument.
40:41
But then you also bring up William Wilberforce.
40:43
And so if you've ever read a black redneck white liberals, that's something where, you
40:48
know, Thomas Sol does a masterful job breaking down the African slave trade and all these
40:52
different things.
40:53
It's just absolutely a mind-blowing, mind-blowing book.
40:55
You guys have to read it.
40:56
But people don't understand that William Wilberforce was an incrementalist because, and he's the
41:02
guy that we point to as the guy that ended began the ending of the scourge of slavery
41:08
in the West.
41:09
And wouldn't abolitionist go to William Wilberforce and be like, "You're doing it wrong, buddy.
41:12
You know why?"
41:13
Because John Calvin exists and the first 1,500 years of Christianity didn't mean anything
41:19
because John Calvin hadn't taken his first breath, held me before I blow a gasket saying
41:24
it.
41:25
But you know, it's actually fascinating.
41:30
There is a big debate between a volitionist and incrementalist and I knew what I was doing
41:37
when I said it about whether Wilberforce was an incrementalist or an abolitionist or an
41:44
immediatelyist.
41:45
You know, I'll say this.
41:46
They have, you know, he wrote after he banned the slave trade.
41:51
He wrote a book where he is scathing towards the so-called gradualist, which were in some
41:59
ways the incrementalist of his time.
42:02
The problem is they don't seem to understand what we mean by incrementalist.
42:08
So for example, there are different kinds of incrementalist.
42:11
There are people like me who believe the only reason why we should be incrementalist is
42:15
because we want to save as many of your business as possible.
42:17
And then you have incrementalist who believe it's better for society if we slowly end
42:23
these things.
42:24
Because right now women are not ready to actually, or society as a whole, are not ready
42:30
to support a volitionist or a media test bill.
42:33
Those are two different things.
42:35
When Wilberforce, in my mind, was being scathing towards the gradualist of his time, he was
42:43
referring to people who were saying that, hey, let's slowly, gradually end slavery.
42:50
Not because they were supporting incrementalist bills, necessarily, but because they believed
42:57
that England or Britain was not prepared to end slavery right away.
43:02
Which is two different things, right?
43:04
So Wilberforce was incrementalist in the sense that he wanted to ban slavery.
43:09
That was his goal, ban slavery across the British Empire.
43:13
However, he first banned the slave trade.
43:17
The slave trade.
43:19
Then he banned slavery as a whole.
43:22
That's incrementalism, if Wilberforce was anything like the abolitionist today, he would
43:29
have never introduced a slave trade bill.
43:31
Never.
43:32
He would have simply been pushing to ban all slavery right away, nothing else.
43:37
And frankly, also to punish the slave owners as well too, but he didn't do that.
43:42
And we wouldn't know his name today if that's how he had acted.
43:45
Exactly.
43:46
But abolitionists today are redefining what Wilberforce really was, right?
43:53
And then of course he wasn't a abolitionist.
43:55
The same way that you and I are, we want to abolish abortion.
44:00
That's what we want.
44:01
But we are going to do whatever we can to gradually, not because we think it's better
44:05
for society as a whole.
44:07
We just know that that's the only possible way for us right now, right?
44:10
So that's why he was indeed an incrementalist.
44:15
Well, it was absolute news to me that I wasn't as pro life as I possibly could be because
44:19
that's something that I've talked about on this podcast ad nauseam about how you can't
44:24
say that there is sanctity of human life, some lives, right?
44:28
Oh, well, well, that girl was raped.
44:29
So her baby deserves to die because of, you know, her baby deserves to get the death penalty
44:34
for something the father did.
44:35
I don't think anybody would would do that.
44:37
But it is shocking to me.
44:38
And I think this is a good place.
44:39
And I know that you would echo the sentiments as well is like we're on the same team, right?
44:44
We are on the same team as these abolitionists.
44:46
We just vehemently disagree on how we're able to operate moving forward.
44:50
So if you're an abolitionist still listening to this podcast, 40 minutes in shock of all
44:53
shocks, that's something that you should really think about is think about a Wilbur force.
44:58
Think about history remembers that man.
44:59
And this isn't just about history and having your name remembered, but think about what
45:03
life would be like right now in 2022 in the West had he not been incremental in his approach
45:07
to things because there are still countries in the world today where slavery is, is just
45:13
as vibrant as it was 300 years ago, but not in any Western countries and that should be
45:17
a shock to nobody.
45:18
But Samuel, I'm really glad we were able to make this work out.
45:21
I'm glad we were able to get a little bit more context and a little bit more depth to
45:24
some of the things that you put there in that blog.
45:26
So obviously you have an open audience here for the next time you [inaudible] everybody off.
45:30
But for now, that is all for me.
45:32
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest before we let you go?
45:34
Yeah, I want to just say this, you know, as I said in the, as I said in an article and
45:38
as we also said in the intro, I've, I've [inaudible] off abolitionist and the other the mainstream
45:45
pro-life people.
45:48
As you said as well too, that the abolitionists are not my enemies.
45:52
They are my allies.
45:53
Unfortunately, the abolitionists tend to see people like me and you as our as their enemies,
45:58
which is very unfortunate.
45:59
But you know, right now the pro-life movement needs to be very, very, very careful moving
46:05
forward.
46:06
We have abolitionists, frankly, who are against us.
46:10
We have, of course, abortion advocates who are against us.
46:12
Then we have the so-called holistically pro-life people, this is mostly the big Eva people who
46:18
have embraced critical race theory who are saying, well, abortion is one of many things
46:21
we can address.
46:22
It's not really the biggest issue right now in our culture.
46:26
So because of all of these, these things we need to be making sure that we are putting
46:31
the first things first.
46:32
If you are a believer, primarily, making sure that we are doing these things, we are fighting
46:38
justice because we love justification, because we are keeping the gospel centered.
46:42
And then keeping babies first, that we have to care much more about the babies than trying
46:48
to have some weird test for paratism, right?
46:50
And I think, you know, that's one thing that concerns me here is that, look, I want to
46:54
say as many babies as possible, that's what it means to be pro-life.
46:57
And I want the abolitionists to be joining me in that way as well.
47:00
Yeah, I think it was a good word and I do have some parting advice for you.
47:04
Whenever you feel like this thing, and I'm holding up a phone to the screen right now,
47:08
starts blowing up with all these people that I hate you and hate your point of view, you
47:11
know what you can do?
47:13
Set it down.
47:14
Set it down, face down and don't look at it, right?
47:17
I appreciate you.
47:18
I'm glad that you were speaking out so boldly on this issue.
47:20
And I appreciate that final sentiment.
47:22
Samuel, say thank you for coming back on Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
47:25
Thank you.
47:26
It's an honor again.
47:27
There you go, guys.
47:28
The return appearance of Samuel, say on the podcast, but before we let you go, we are
47:31
going to do a quick resilience boost.
47:33
And Undaunted Life, our mission is equipping man to push back darkness with content that
47:35
for just spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
47:38
So the links I've got for you today, I've got a link to Samuel's website, but I also
47:41
have a link to the blog, guys, make sure that you read the blog, why I'm not an abolitionist,
47:45
on abortion, we go into a lot of detail, but there's a lot of stuff we couldn't get to
47:48
as well.
47:49
It is worth your time.
47:50
All right, guys.
47:51
Thanks so much for listening to the show.
47:52
We do appreciate it.
47:53
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five-star
47:55
review.
47:56
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47:59
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48:00
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48:02
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including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
48:08
Just go to www.Undaunted.life.
48:11
And as always, we want to thank the band, August Burns Red, for allowing us to use their music
48:14
for our content.
48:15
The music on this podcast is our song, "Cutting the Ties," which is off their 10th anniversary
48:19
re-recording of their album, "Livler."
48:21
The links are in the description.
48:22
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
48:24
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience,
48:31
keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
48:54
[music]