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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
1:21
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
1:23
Hi guys, today I've got a special guest interview for you, and that is with Ryan Mickler.
1:26
He is the host of the Order of Man podcast, and he is the author of the book Sovereignty,
1:31
The Battle for the Hearts and Minds of Man.
1:33
Now guys, he and I do a lot of the same things, and so it's really cool to talk to somebody.
1:37
We even look a lot alike, we got red beards and the whole nine, but it's really fun to
1:41
have a conversation like this, and I'm going to tell you why.
1:43
Because every time I do an interview, I'm going to give you a little peek behind the curtain.
1:46
I always plan it out as if I'm going to have an hour and a half with this person, and I
1:49
almost never do.
1:50
I maybe get, you know, 45 minutes or 60 minutes or something like that, but I kind of plan
1:54
it out, because I can't always guarantee that the person I'm talking to is someone that I
1:58
can really get something out of and put them in a particular direction or that we're going
2:03
to be able to create something.
2:04
Because again, I'm thinking to you guys, when I'm talking to these people, I want to make
2:07
sure that this content is good for you, that you're going to enjoy it, that you're going
2:10
to share it around, all those types of things.
2:12
But I always have to prepare, just in case somebody is just kind of a rote answer person,
2:15
they're just going to kind of give you the answers and move on.
2:18
This interview is nothing like that.
2:19
If you could see my notes for this interview as you're listening along, you're going to
2:23
be like, this is nothing like what you plan for.
2:25
And that's what made it so awesome.
2:27
And just as a quick aside, we had to do some adjustments with some of the things that we're
2:30
doing in terms of the interview.
2:31
So the audio is not perfect.
2:33
I know you guys are going to give me crap for that later.
2:35
But the audio on my end, the audio on his end is not perfect.
2:37
It had to be boosted, had to be put through a couple of different things just so we could
2:40
make sure that it worked.
2:41
But I just wanted to make sure that this conversation got to you.
2:43
So to audio, audio files out there, just give me a little bit of a break on this one, okay?
2:48
In terms of the interview, we went into a lot of different directions.
2:51
We talked about a lot of different subjects, you know, some of them are going to be a
2:53
little bit on the political side.
2:55
Some of it's going to be a little bit more on the familial cultural side of things.
2:58
I love his respective and everything that we talked about.
3:00
Guys, we're definitely going to do this again at some point.
3:02
So we will see if the conversation can be kept going in that way.
3:05
But guys, thank you so much for listening to this show.
3:07
I'm so glad that you're here for it, but I'm not going to keep them from you any longer
3:10
without further ado.
3:12
Let's get into it.
3:13
Ryan McClure.
3:14
Welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
3:16
Kyle, what's up, brother?
3:17
I've been looking forward to this conversation since we talked what a month ago on the phone
3:21
and, yeah, I think you and I are on a very similar path.
3:24
So I love having conversations like this with like-minded people who may not see everything
3:28
the same, but we're all moving in the same direction.
3:31
Well, I think that's the abundance mentality and just to be honest, I struggle with that
3:34
because I've been a competitor my entire life.
3:36
And so I kind of have this, you know, clenched fist mentality that I have to fight on a constant
3:40
basis.
3:41
But yeah, you and I are operating in a lot of the same areas and we're going to get into
3:44
those concepts here in just a second.
3:46
But basically I have the standard with my podcast.
3:48
Even when that served in the military, I always like to start my interview there because for
3:53
me, you know, I grew up in Lawton, Fort Sill.
3:55
And so that's kind of something that I've carried with me as a regret that I never actually
3:58
served in the military.
3:59
My life path just didn't take me in that direction.
4:02
But for you individually, what made you want to join the United States military?
4:06
I wish I could tell you I had these like really noble ambitions of serving my country and
4:12
going into battle guns of blazing.
4:15
But frankly, I really didn't know what to do.
4:17
I had a couple of buddies who were joining the National Guard.
4:20
I thought I wanted to go to college.
4:22
I thought this would be a good way to pay for it.
4:24
And I'd always been patriotic.
4:25
I've always believed in our country.
4:26
I think service is valuable, but it really wasn't anything more than that.
4:31
So you know, I know there's a bunch of guys and I've had them on the podcast and you have
4:34
two and I honor these guys who they've wanted to be Navy SEALs since the time they were
4:38
three years old and, you know, they've envisioned themselves wearing the uniform.
4:43
And I think that's rad.
4:44
I'm just not that special.
4:47
I did it for maybe some selfish reasons.
4:50
But you know, I learned a lot about being in the military through basic training, through
4:54
a active duty combat tour in Iraq in 2005.
4:58
I was in Ramadi.
5:00
So I learned a lot of the value of service after I had joined and it's translated perfectly
5:06
over into the rest of my life.
5:07
So I'm honored to be able to serve.
5:08
I'm honored to be able to have worn the uniform and do what needs to be done.
5:12
But you know, I'm not that special.
5:15
And I wish I had, I wish I had a better story for you right there.
5:19
I really did.
5:20
That's why I've told a lot of people, it's like, man, why do you want to talk to me?
5:23
I wasn't Delta.
5:24
I wasn't like tracking down like these high value terrorists that were in the deck of
5:28
cards or whatever.
5:29
But you know, everyone kind of has their own story, but we're definitely not going to spend
5:32
a lot of time here, but I do want to circle back to some of the other stuff with being
5:36
in the military, being a veteran and having that being part of your resume.
5:40
When you look at what's going on right now, this is kind of getting into the political
5:43
side where you see some, you know, signals that the military is going woke and some of
5:48
the things that they're doing in the academies, some of the things that they're doing to make
5:52
the military perhaps more inclusive and not as lethal.
5:57
When you look back as a veteran, I've talked to a lot of veterans that don't really have
6:00
a great view about the military and would be, they would have some consternation if they
6:04
were still in the military today.
6:05
What are your feelings on all that?
6:08
It's really frustrating, let's rewind a little bit.
6:10
So I went to basic training in 2000, it was either 99 or two, I want to say 2000 right
6:17
after high school.
6:18
And when I went to Forest Hill, Oklahoma, which is an artillery school because that was my
6:23
MOS 13 Delta, we were, if I remember correctly, and so weird to say, but this was over two
6:30
decades ago.
6:31
So I'm trying to jog my memory here, but if I remember correctly, we were the first coed
6:37
basic training unit out of Forest Hill, Oklahoma.
6:41
So we had female drill sergeants, we had females, soldiers who were training with us.
6:49
And it was rough, man, like flat out, it was rough.
6:54
You know, here's the interesting thing, and I'm trying to say this, you know, with respect.
6:59
I've never worried about offending people, but I'm trying to say this with respect.
7:04
There is, there is a double standard.
7:08
And when I joined the military, the standard was inferior for women.
7:12
When it came to physical training, mostly physical training, it was an inferior standard.
7:16
Now, if I'm in war or in the LEO community, if I need to be rescued from a burning building
7:23
or I'm trapped in a car, I don't care if you're a man or a woman.
7:27
I just want to know you can save my life.
7:28
That's all I want to know.
7:29
Right.
7:30
I want to know that if the soldier, whether it's male or female standing next to me, is
7:35
going to have my back is going to be proficient is going to be trained.
7:38
And when a female gets to participate at a lower standard, that's a problem.
7:43
That's a problem.
7:44
So we'd go on long road marches.
7:46
I remember a 10 mile road march early early in the morning.
7:50
I don't know why I remember this, but probably because it was miserable.
7:53
They woke us up early.
7:54
We didn't have it planned.
7:55
They said, Hey, we're going for road march.
7:56
And it was 10 miles.
7:57
And you know who we're waiting for this little petite female who was a sweet, sweet woman.
8:06
Very nice, very kind.
8:07
She was always helpful and courteous and respectful, but like we had to wait for her the entire
8:13
time.
8:14
It's like, Well, this is mission critical.
8:15
Like this is causing an issue.
8:17
So you know, you've got this feminist movement that is very selective on how it chooses to
8:25
uphold these standards and the way that it looks at society in general.
8:30
And it's like, okay, if you want to be like men, then we're going to hold you to that
8:34
standard.
8:35
Oh, well, how how sexist of you, no, no, no, you're the one that said you wanted to be
8:39
held to that standard.
8:40
You're the one that said you're just as good as men at everything and you're not.
8:45
Now that doesn't diminish what women do.
8:47
It doesn't diminish what they add to the the equation and bring to the table.
8:50
My wife is not as physically strong as me.
8:54
I don't think any less of her in fact, she does so many things around the house and raising
8:58
our children and keeping the house a home and growing the garden and all these wonderful
9:02
things she does that I could never do myself.
9:06
So yeah, I think it's, I think it's, it's a detriment to our fighting force.
9:12
And you know, that that's just my own anecdotal story there.
9:15
But if we fast forward now to 2021, we have higher leadership in the military.
9:24
And frankly, the military has been infiltrated by these, these woke college systems, right?
9:29
So you have these officers who have gone through this woke training over a period of eight,
9:34
12, 16 years, and now they've infiltrated the military and they're worried more about
9:40
making people feel comfortable and making people feel good in their emotions than they
9:44
are.
9:45
Like you said earlier about the lethality of, of our fighting forces and what a shame.
9:49
But you know what?
9:50
That's because we live in a relative ease right now.
9:53
Everything's pretty good.
9:54
You know, there's, yeah, I know there's the fallout from COVID and there's little skirmishes
9:57
here and there and, you know, we're pretty divided as a country.
10:01
But really everything's pretty good right now is walking around the 50 acres of property
10:06
that we have this morning.
10:08
I got my fan crank and right now I've got the technology, I've got the electronics.
10:12
I'm not really worried about where my next meal is coming from, I'm pretty comfortable.
10:17
And so we can worry about dumb [inaudible] like how people feel about their, their gender or pick
10:25
one, pick a subject, you know, and, and it's disheartening.
10:29
But I really think it's going to take some sort of catastrophic event, unfortunately,
10:33
to wake us up from the reality that we're just, we don't have anything real to worry
10:36
about.
10:37
So we make up dumb things to fret over.
10:39
Now, I'm with you, recently I talked to Mike Ritalin about the situation that was going
10:43
on in Afghanistan and I asked him a question, I was surprised by his answer, but the question
10:46
was basically like, if we did have another 9/11, do you feel like the, the country would
10:52
coalesce together like it did on 9/12/2001 and he said, absolutely yes.
10:58
And I disagree with him on that and I, you know, I'm going to be talking about that with
11:02
him a lot further, but there's so much divisiveness now compared to where we were 20 years ago.
11:07
And hearing that story about you and kind of, I know it's anecdotal from 20 years ago,
11:12
that's not the least bit surprising, however, I would think that cooler heads would prevail
11:16
at some point and say, okay, okay, we're actually going to war now, so we can't have this lady
11:21
out there.
11:22
Like I think I remember the story about the two women that made it through, I think it
11:24
was Ranger School, but when they were actually put out into the field, they couldn't hack
11:29
it and they were the ones that were pulled, they pulled themselves out.
11:31
And again, this isn't about hating women, it's about the roles of women and men in society,
11:36
which the lines will matter being completely blurred all the time, which I think dovetails
11:39
into kind of what you and I do a lot with our all day, every day, and it's the overall
11:43
concept of manhood.
11:45
But I know why it's interesting and important to me, but for you specifically, if it goes
11:49
back to your childhood, we can start there, if it goes back to something you experienced
11:52
as an adult, but why does the overall concept of manhood, masculinity and the things therein
11:58
become such an interest to you?
11:59
I will answer that question, but I wanted to touch on something that you said.
12:03
You talked about our roles as men and women.
12:05
I actually don't even think it's about that.
12:06
I mean, I believe there are roles.
12:08
So a lot of people will say, you know, traditional gender roles as a term you hear and people
12:12
as has a negative connotation to it, right?
12:15
But and what people will say is, well, they're, they're societally constructed.
12:19
That isn't true.
12:20
They're biologically constructed and then they're supported societally for good reason.
12:24
They work.
12:25
And again, to go back to what I just said, it isn't until the relative ease of modernity
12:29
that we've actually been into calling the question, the roles in which we play.
12:33
So, but it's not about the roles.
12:35
It's just about the effectiveness period, like forget about the roles, forget about
12:40
the labels, forget about all the stuff that we do because that brings in other, other
12:45
thoughts and negativity and, and all of the stuff, like just, let's just talk about the
12:50
effectiveness.
12:51
If a woman who is just as effective in military combat as a man, great, all, all for it, like
12:58
I don't care.
12:59
It doesn't bother me.
13:01
I just, I want to be able to fight.
13:03
I want to be able to protect our country.
13:05
If you're in the LAO community, I want whoever's going to respond to that intruder breaking
13:10
into my house to be able to respond effectively, you know, or like how's it, how's a woman
13:15
who's five, five, you know, 120 pounds going to subdue a six, five man who's 240 pounds?
13:21
Like tell me at what universe that's going to happen.
13:24
I don't care about it especially if her first teasers shot misses.
13:27
Yeah, and then you have people who are like, well, police brutality and they're going to
13:31
shoot.
13:32
So a woman who's five, five who's giving up 100 pounds and all that sort of option is
13:37
her firearm.
13:38
Yeah.
13:39
A man who maybe is, you know, a guy who's six, four, six, five, 250 pounds is a big man.
13:45
You know, I'm five, 10.
13:46
I weigh about 190, 195 pounds.
13:49
You know, so like I've still got a disadvantage, but I can carry my own, right?
13:53
At least I'm trying to stack the odds to some degree.
13:56
I might not need to fire that lethal shot.
13:58
I may be able to subdue him with some jujitsu that I may have learned over past, you know,
14:01
three or four years, right?
14:02
So I don't care about the roles.
14:04
I really don't.
14:05
I care about effectiveness.
14:07
Now the reason we have roles is because we've generally as a society identified what is
14:11
effective and what isn't and having men fighting, having men be in law enforcement, having men
14:17
in these types of positions that require strength, physical strength and stamina endurance is
14:23
generally going to be more effective for men.
14:25
Now look, there's some women, like you see these, these women who perform in elite levels
14:30
of like CrossFit or the Olympics, they run circles around me in physicality, you know,
14:35
but that that's the exception, not the rule.
14:38
Your question was what drew me to this, this masculinity movement?
14:41
Is that right?
14:42
Yeah, absolutely.
14:43
Yeah, so I was raised primarily by my, my mother.
14:49
I had some stepfathers coming to my life, not a really great example of what it meant
14:52
to be a man through the role models I had.
14:54
So my, my mom raised my sister and I primarily on her own and I didn't have that great example
15:02
of what it meant to be a man.
15:03
But you know what's really interesting?
15:04
I thought about this a lot over the past several years.
15:07
My mom understood that she was a little deficient in raising a boy.
15:13
Not that she was bad at it, not that she wasn't capable of doing it, but she realized
15:18
that there was a deficiency, there was a gap and it wasn't an indictment against her.
15:21
It was like, I'm a woman, my son is going to be a man, like I don't know how to do this.
15:26
And to my mother's credit, she got me heavily, heavily involved in competitive sports because
15:32
she knew that I needed the role model and the influence of other men who weren't necessarily
15:37
in my life.
15:38
And I remember vivid moments in my life where I would be struggling with, you know, a coach's
15:43
decision to pull me or to cut me from the team and both have had happened.
15:47
And I would ask my mom and I'd say, hey, you know, mom, like what's going on, hoping
15:52
she would come in and rescue me.
15:53
And you know what she always said?
15:54
She said, go talk to your coach.
15:57
Go talk to him.
15:58
I don't know.
15:59
Go talk to him.
16:00
And I bet she had her own thoughts and ideas of why that was the case and she probably wanted
16:04
to rescue me and save me from these big, bad coaches.
16:06
But she always had enough restraint and enough information or just like care of me that she
16:14
got out of her own way and she got me involved with other men.
16:17
And so I didn't really have this strong presence of manliness and maleness in my home.
16:25
And it really didn't manifest itself until I started having kids and I got married and
16:29
man, I struggled, you know, my wife and I went through a separation, we had a one year
16:35
old son at the time and I just struggled.
16:39
I just didn't know how to show up.
16:40
I didn't know how to harness my emotions.
16:42
I didn't know how to lead effectively in the home or to grow my business.
16:46
And I don't think this is an abnormal thought.
16:48
I think a lot of guys are feeling this.
16:50
So I really went on a journey of self discovery and like, how do I really do this thing called
16:55
manliness?
16:56
And so I started listening to podcasts and reading books and being surrounded by mentors
17:02
and my business and as I started talking about the issue that I was going through with my
17:07
family and my business.
17:10
No other guys were like, yeah, I've had that issue where I grew up without a dad or I had
17:14
a divorce or a separation with my wife and I'm dealing with these things.
17:16
And I thought, you know, there's really probably something here.
17:19
So in 2015, I started a podcast actually pivoted from a podcast that I had with my financial
17:25
planning practice that I owned and started talking about masculinity and manliness.
17:29
And it blew up Kyle, it blew up from day one.
17:34
And I realized very quickly we were on to something.
17:36
So that was in March of 2015 and we've been on the gas pedal for the past six and a half
17:42
years now.
17:43
We're not letting off anytime soon because I see how valuable this work is from men who
17:47
are in similar situations and similar boats and haven't yet figured it out.
17:50
Yeah.
17:51
And that's the thing that I've actually seen and I've felt some resistance in the stuff
17:54
that we do, Ryan, is that if you talk about masculinity, that that is somehow inherently
17:59
toxic.
18:00
It's like this cultural phenomenon that focusing on masculinity, expecting boys to develop
18:05
into men is somehow hurting them, right?
18:07
Because people have been hurt by masculinity and so they just want to get rid of it.
18:10
And so I'm curious about some of the resistance that you've seen since 2015 since you've been
18:13
talking about this because the cultural revolution is just kept on a pace from, you know, from
18:18
2015 to 2021.
18:20
It's gotten worse and worse for people that want to focus on these things.
18:23
And you're called a bigot if you think there's a difference between the sexes.
18:25
So what types of things have you ran into?
18:27
Honestly, man, I don't get a lot of pushback.
18:30
I really don't.
18:31
You know, sometimes I draw attention to it because I think it's important that we talk
18:34
about it.
18:35
I made a post yesterday about some troll, you know, talking with me and my response back.
18:39
And I had a bunch of people say, Oh, why do you entertain that?
18:41
I'm like, I don't entertain it for that guy.
18:43
I entertain it for you guys so that you can see what it's like to actually stand up for
18:47
what you believe in because we have so many cowards in society today.
18:51
But so I draw attention to some of that stuff.
18:54
But honestly, the amount of pushback that I get is like 0.00001 of the engagement that
19:00
I have.
19:02
Most people, men and women believe wholeheartedly in what we're doing.
19:06
Now some might see it different and I don't take that as a challenge.
19:09
I take that as some level of cooperation.
19:12
Somebody might think, well, you know, masculinity is important, but the way you're talking about
19:15
it isn't entirely accurate.
19:16
Cool.
19:17
Let's talk about it.
19:18
Let's figure it out.
19:19
As long as we're rowing in the same direction, we all want to be better men.
19:21
Then let's do it.
19:23
But I really don't get a lot of pushback men enjoy what we're doing.
19:28
In fact, most of the pushback I receive comes from men because they don't see it the same
19:32
way that I do.
19:33
And so they're like, well, this is, you know, this is too black and white or what they're
19:38
saying really is that they don't check the boxes that I see.
19:41
And that's okay.
19:42
Like I'm not saying I'm the epitome of masculinity or that I have the perfect definition by all
19:46
objective standards is what we should be striving for.
19:50
I'm really on the path just like any other man.
19:53
But the majority of women that I talk with and anywhere, whether it's Instagram or Facebook
19:58
or listening to the podcast or any of our platforms, you're probably going to have 15
20:02
ish to 20, maybe percent of our audience is female.
20:07
And the overwhelming majority of those women believe wholeheartedly in what we do.
20:11
They support it, they share it, they live it themselves, and women who listen to what
20:18
we're doing usually fall into one of two camps primarily.
20:22
Number one, they want their husband to listen to it, right?
20:25
So they've got their husband who may be struggling with alcohol or drugs or addiction or pornography
20:31
or just to date it or living an inferior life.
20:35
So that's one camp.
20:36
The second camp is women who are raising boys on their own who don't know how to do it just
20:40
like my mother didn't and are trying to figure out how to give these young men the tools
20:44
and the resources and conversations they need.
20:46
So they turned to what we're doing, hoping that I might drop some wisdom and knowledge
20:51
or information that would serve them and their children and their young men well.
20:54
So yeah, I don't really get into the whole like, what resistance and yeah, sure, there's
21:00
some people who think I'm a misogynistic or that I'm sexist or whatever, but I really
21:07
try to tune that stuff out because there's 99.9999% of people who really believe in what
21:13
we're doing and see the value of having strong ambitious, courageous, virtuous men operating
21:17
a society today.
21:18
Yeah, and I don't typically engage people either whenever they leave reviews or negative comments
21:24
or something like that because these are people that want to throw poop, right?
21:27
They don't want to actually sit down and have a conversation because if someone's willing
21:29
to have their mind changed, I'm down to sit down with that person, but I love the point
21:34
that you're making about how women are into what we're doing as well because I've experienced
21:37
the exact same thing, women that are, you know, giving this to their husbands.
21:40
I've got, you know, someone came in mind when you were talking and that's Michelle Black,
21:44
her husband was killed over in Niger.
21:46
He was a green braid that was killed over there and they have two young boys and all
21:49
of a sudden here she is raising these boys, but she's letting them listen to my podcast
21:53
and taking them to these men's camps where they've they've got mentors that can kind
21:56
of be around them.
21:57
And it's so unbelievably important and we live in this age and era where somebody in
22:01
your phone, right, and in your headphones can actually mentor you directly.
22:05
And that's that's a really, really fun thing to do.
22:07
But one thing that I'm curious about Ryan for you is in doing the podcast for as long
22:11
as I've done, I felt like I've gotten better at my own opinions and it's been cathartic
22:15
for me at different times whenever I can go and kind of talk about a topic as opposed
22:18
to trying to find someone that's up to speed on it for you.
22:22
What have you learned from putting the podcast together?
22:24
Because you've put out several hundred episodes.
22:26
It's been doing very well for a very long time, but what are some of those core life
22:29
lessons that you've learned just from being a podcaster?
22:32
The first one that comes to mind is just consistency.
22:35
You know, I'm not uniquely talented or amazing or incredible at anything really like I've
22:40
always been.
22:41
I'm decent.
22:42
I'm somewhat intelligent, somewhat athletic, but you know, maybe the higher end of average,
22:48
I would say nothing to write home about.
22:52
So I don't have a luxury of wealth, of a network, of some sort of God given talent that other
23:01
people might have access to, but I can be consistent, you know, and I can get involved
23:10
in something and stay involved forever.
23:13
And that's the value of what we've been able to do.
23:16
We started in March of 2015, we've done, I believe, 815 podcasts or something around
23:23
there over the past six and a half years.
23:27
And I haven't missed a single episode, not one in six and a half years.
23:31
That's three episodes per week with a family of six, with travel, with my own activities
23:38
and hobbies and interests, with my own set of challenges that pop up periodically.
23:43
And we haven't missed a single episode.
23:45
And that's what it's required.
23:47
You know, if you want to be successful in life, you're going to have to find a way to
23:50
be consistent and keep your head in the game for a very, very long period of time, especially
23:54
when you don't have that talent, or you don't have that network, you don't have that wealth.
24:00
And I'm not diminishing that.
24:01
Look, if I had the wealth, I would tap into that.
24:03
If I had the abundance or the network or the God given talents, like you bet your ass
24:07
I would use that.
24:08
And I do use what talents I have, and I know how to maximize them, but consistency has
24:13
been the biggest thing for me to achieve the level of success that we have.
24:18
That's usually when people ask me for advice on podcasting, that's always the first thing
24:22
I tell them is like, if you're not willing to do this, like, because you know, people
24:26
that do seasons, they're not doing seasons because that's their plan.
24:29
They're doing seasons because they're like, okay, I don't really want to do this podcast
24:32
for the next couple of months.
24:33
Like there's some people that actually do that.
24:34
And it's like, Hey, man, you just got to nose to the grindstone regardless of what happens.
24:38
You've got to put something out there because people depend on you.
24:40
Like, if your stuff releases every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, people are expecting that,
24:44
right?
24:45
And when it's not there, or if it's not there, it becomes a major issue for them.
24:48
So you said you've done, you know, over 800 podcasts and you've had a lot of guests on
24:51
your show.
24:53
And you know, there's, you know, the prominent ones that are people would know, the Binch
24:55
Piero, Zajaka, Willings, and all that.
24:56
And that's all good.
24:57
But is there an interview that comes to mind that might be a little bit obscure.
25:02
So you know, someone who maybe doesn't have an enormous profile, someone that hasn't sold
25:05
a couple of million books or something like that, but somebody that you talk to and you're
25:09
like, man, they surprise you.
25:10
They surprise me.
25:11
They blew me away.
25:12
Is there, is there something like a kind of diamond and a rough there?
25:14
That's such a hard question.
25:16
Because again, we've done probably of those 800 plus episodes, probably 350 of them or
25:20
so are interview episodes.
25:22
So 350 guys that we've interviewed who are all successful in their own right, a couple
25:27
of guys that come to mind are, I would say, John Eldridge is certainly somebody who comes
25:33
to mind.
25:34
He's the author of Wild at Heart, you're probably, you're shaking your head.
25:37
So I think you're probably familiar with him.
25:38
I've talked with him a couple of times.
25:41
That book was transformative for me, like literally transformed my life.
25:46
Another one that comes to mind is Ethan Sepley, he's an actor, he's kind of known for being
25:54
the heavy fat fat guy in the movie, but he's really transformed his life and he's become
26:00
strong and fit and he's talking about that on his podcast, American Gluttonous, his podcast.
26:07
Like those are two that come to mind that a lot of people just wouldn't think of right
26:10
off hand, that there was just some real, but look, I hesitate to even answer that question
26:17
because what I think people do is like, "Oh cool, I'm going to go to that podcast and they're
26:21
going to skip everything else."
26:23
And my theory is that if you just listen, like I could walk down the street and I could
26:29
find a homeless man on the street and I can ask him about his life and I guarantee I can
26:33
extract value from his life.
26:35
I guarantee it.
26:36
So it's not about who the guest is.
26:38
Now look, you and I are playing the game, right?
26:40
And it is a game.
26:42
So I got to have Ben Shapiro on, I got to have Dan Crenshaw, I got to have Jordan Peters
26:45
now, I got to have Jocko.
26:46
Like I got to have these guys on because that's what people recognize.
26:50
But you know what?
26:51
If you actually listened with an open heart and an open mind, you can learn from anybody.
26:56
And even if it's just taking one thing, that's why I think books and conferences and podcasts
27:01
and these, and courses and these types of things are so important because if you walk
27:05
away with one little bit of knowledge, one little new way of looking at things or one
27:09
new little piece of information that might not seem like a big deal, it could radically
27:15
alter your life.
27:16
So if we're always looking for, oh well, what's, you know, David Goggins, you know, he was
27:20
on Ryan's podcast.
27:21
So I want to listen to the David Goggins episode.
27:23
You should listen to that episode.
27:25
But you should also listen to John Sullivan, you know, like this, like the random ordinary
27:30
guy who actually has some real life wisdom to share.
27:34
And if you come with it with an open mind and an open heart, you're going to find valuable
27:39
resources, information in whoever you're listening to.
27:44
Yeah, I agree with that.
27:45
And I forget who said it, but it was something along the lines of let's say you're a very,
27:48
very well-known musician and let's say you have five million fans.
27:53
Well, that's a lot of fans, but there's eight billion people on the planet.
27:57
And so I feel like every few months I uncover somebody that is wildly, wickedly famous in
28:01
their line of work or in their niche, and I had no idea this person even existed.
28:06
And so that's some of the wisdom that you're talking about.
28:08
Like you might just, oh, I don't know this person's name.
28:10
It doesn't just pop off the page to mirror off the screen and you just skip it.
28:14
But yes, there are wisdom and there are nuggets that you can pull from everybody that you
28:17
could possibly think of.
28:19
But to kind of go back even into your show that everyone kind of has their aspirational
28:23
thing like, Hey, here's my Mount Rushmore people that I would want to have on my show.
28:26
And you've had a lot of those people on.
28:28
But if you could talk to anybody that's currently on the planet, someone that's alive that has
28:31
not been on your show before, but that you feel like you would have a really, really
28:34
good conversation with if I had to peg you down to one person, who do you think you would
28:38
want to talk to?
28:39
I would really want to talk to Keanu Reeves.
28:41
Like, I'm.
28:42
Okay, John Wick.
28:43
There you go.
28:44
Yeah, bro.
28:45
No, not even John Wick.
28:46
Keanu Reeves.
28:47
Like I'm.
28:48
Just Keanu Reeves.
28:49
John Wick.
28:50
He's, he's, he's imaginary.
28:51
He's not real.
28:52
Like it's easy to, it's easy to be a badass when you get to redo scenes and, you know, have
28:58
everything choreographed in this perfect situation.
29:01
I'm not taking anything away from the John Wick movies.
29:03
I actually enjoy them, but I don't want to talk with John Wick.
29:05
I want to talk with Keanu Reeves.
29:07
John Wick doesn't exist, you know, so, but that's what we do.
29:10
We're like, oh, do I want to be like John Wick?
29:12
I want to be like James Bond.
29:13
That's like, okay, well, that'd be awesome, but your life is in a movie and you don't get
29:16
to do retakes and all this kind of stuff.
29:18
It's not choreographed and people don't know their lines.
29:21
When you say this, they don't, you know, and you have a team of people telling you what
29:24
sounds cool and what looks cool.
29:27
That's easy.
29:28
I want to talk with Keanu Reeves, because that guy is fascinating.
29:31
You know what I mean?
29:32
Like he's, he seems like he is very dedicated to his craft, obviously.
29:37
He's very successful at his craft.
29:41
He's fully vested, but then also in light of what you see a lot of actors do where they
29:46
want to be in the public eye and they want to be in the space and they want all the notoriety
29:49
and attention, like you don't really see that from Keanu Reeves and that's kind of fascinating
29:53
to me.
29:54
Like he goes and does his work and he does it very well.
29:56
He's obviously a professional and then he just goes and I was going to say retreat, but
29:59
it's not retreat.
30:01
He just goes and lives his life and does what he needs to do and he seems like a pretty
30:05
humble guy.
30:06
I don't know him, but he seems like a humble guy.
30:07
He seems like he wants to be a good person and do right and good.
30:10
And then he's very, obviously very successful and a professional in his career.
30:15
So that's like my number one guy right now that I want to talk with.
30:20
Okay.
30:21
Well, the next time I see him, I'll be sure to drop your name down and say, hey, this
30:25
guy wants to talk to you, Neo, I call him Neo because we're old friends.
30:29
But the thing that's, that's cool about what you've done with your show, you had your show
30:32
for several years and then you decided to put out a book.
30:35
So it's a book called sovereignty of the battle for the hearts and minds of men.
30:38
You release that back in 2018, so about three years into your whole podcasting career.
30:42
And we're not going to do a super deep dive because guys go buy the book.
30:46
It's in the show notes.
30:47
You can buy and read it for your day himself, but you, you go into the concept that you talk
30:50
about a lot, which is predict, provide and preside, but then you also get into a code
30:54
of conduct section.
30:55
So I'm going to talk about both of those.
30:56
But let's go back to the three piece of protect, preside and preside, if provide and preside
31:02
actually.
31:03
If you wouldn't mind giving our viewers just kind of a sense as to why you pulled those
31:06
things out, because a lot of these men's things, they try to do something piffy, but
31:10
protect, provide, preside, that's right in the core of what men need to be doing.
31:14
But from your perspective, why are those the three things that men should be focusing on?
31:18
Well, number one, we're biologically hardwired to step into those callings.
31:23
So we were talking earlier about traditional masculine roles.
31:27
There's a great book called Manhood in the Making by David Gilmore.
31:30
Have you read that book?
31:31
I haven't read it yet.
31:32
It's on my book list though.
31:33
It's on it's on a list of books that I'm about to read.
31:36
Yeah, you should read that one.
31:38
It's it actually is a little clunky and cumbersome and hard to get through, but it's very telling.
31:42
So what this gentleman did is he researched different cultures and tribes and people throughout
31:48
much of history.
31:49
He found a common thread between the way these tribes and cultures viewed manliness and masculinity.
31:56
And a lot of these cultures had not even been introduced to each other, but he found some
32:00
common themes between the way that all of these tribes and cultures view men masculinity
32:06
and manliness.
32:08
And what he found is that the majority of cultures will look at men as protectors, providers,
32:17
and the third component that he used was procreate that men are to procreate.
32:22
I don't I don't totally agree with that because to procreate it takes two.
32:26
So procreation alone isn't isn't just manliness, right?
32:31
Like it is not a masculine, heavily weighted toward masculinity, like the females are involved
32:37
in the process.
32:38
So I think he was off on that, you know, and so now look, some men believe that it's some
32:43
sort of sexual conquest, but it's not really that's not procreation that they're after.
32:48
It's after sexual conquest is different.
32:51
Like I I won the woman, right?
32:53
That's different than I had a child.
32:55
So I disagree with that, but I do agree with the protect and the provide.
33:00
And as I was reading this book and I've read a lot of other books, hundreds and hundreds
33:03
of books about manliness and masculinity, I think the common thing that you're going
33:07
to find there instead of procreation is to preside to lead.
33:12
So when we were talking earlier about traditional gender roles, that's that's what you're going
33:18
to see.
33:19
Men are the protectors, men are the providers, men preside.
33:23
So last night I had a really interesting experience.
33:25
It was probably, I don't know, maybe 2 a.m.
33:29
And my wife like like yells in like we're both sleeping and she yells, she's like, and
33:34
she yells.
33:35
And I wake up and all I see is her kind of like flailing a little bit and then a figure
33:41
on the other side of the bed.
33:42
And so I got up like fast and I was rearing back to like start punching.
33:48
And my wife's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, it's just Eli, which is our second son.
33:51
It's just Eli.
33:52
It's just just just relax.
33:53
It's just Eli.
33:54
But I was ready.
33:55
Like I was rare and ready to go.
33:56
And if she wouldn't have stopped, I probably would have punched him, not, not, not of any
34:00
ill will, but just out of my natural desired inclination to protect my woman, my wife.
34:08
So there's, there's roles that we play and I'm not saying that women are incapable of
34:13
leading.
34:14
I'm not saying that women can't provide, they certainly can, but I feel like the better
34:19
that we as men can embrace these traditional roles and they're only traditional because
34:24
we're biologically hardwired to step into these roles, the more fulfilled and satisfied
34:27
will be.
34:28
So if you look at the people who are the men specifically, who are having the hardest
34:33
time in life, they're depressed, they're anxious, potentially suicidal.
34:38
They don't, they don't know how to step into these roles and the discrepancy, and I call
34:42
it the integrity gap, the gap between the way they view themselves and the way they're
34:46
actually performing the larger that gap, the larger the depression, despair, anxiety and
34:50
even the suicidal tendencies.
34:53
So we should be stepping into those rules.
34:56
We should be protectors.
34:57
We should be physical.
34:58
We should be training.
34:59
We should be acquiring the tools, whether it's firearms or, or even the skill set to be able
35:05
to protect, provide as financial provision.
35:08
It's the, it's the spiritual provision that we as, as leaders of the household are to
35:13
be providing and securing for our family, preside.
35:17
We should be courageous and bold and assertive and, and lead with virtue and honor and like
35:24
these are the things that we do and the more that a men, a man can step into those roles,
35:28
the more fulfilled, satisfied and successful, frankly, he'll be that's when we shirt those
35:32
responsibilities, do we start to feel like [inaudible] and we should, we should, because we're
35:37
not doing what we're called to do as men.
35:39
And that's a funny thing.
35:40
I just got through reading a book yesterday, which I'll leave name list, but I'm doing
35:43
a debate on a radio show in the UK here soon.
35:47
And again, me and this guy have the same worldview, but he doesn't feel the same way that you
35:51
and I do about these different roles, because here's one thing that I know at two o'clock
35:54
in the morning, when you got up and you're ready to destroy what was there potentially,
35:58
you know, having a negative impact on your wife, you weren't thinking about gender roles
36:01
and gender stereotypes, you weren't thinking about cultural definitions of what a masculine
36:05
man is or something like that, there was just time to react.
36:08
So it's almost like there's some sort of genetic component, there's some sort of biological
36:12
component that would make us respond in a certain way.
36:15
And yeah, I've heard about that book so many times and that's, that's going to be my other
36:18
motivation to go ahead and finally read that, because again, when you look at these people
36:21
that are across cultures that don't understand one another, everybody wants to talk about
36:24
how men in France 400 years ago used to wear, you know, frilly shirts as like, oh, you know,
36:30
gender or masculinity is culture driven, which doesn't make any sense, it's such a stupid
36:34
argument.
36:35
Actually, I want to get your opinion on that.
36:36
I'll skip the stuff that I was going to talk about in a second.
36:38
When people talk about how gender or how masculine codes and feminine codes or something
36:43
like that, it is culturally bound, right?
36:46
So this culture doesn't think look at it the same way this culture men walk down the street
36:50
holding hands and kiss each other on the lips, you know, and they're not gay like that type
36:54
of a thing.
36:55
What do you think would people make arguments like that?
36:56
There's a book like, you know, manhood in the making would be, you know, in direct contrast
37:00
to that, no?
37:02
It's just a, like you said, it's a ridiculous argument style.
37:05
You're talking about style.
37:06
Okay.
37:07
Style changes.
37:08
Right.
37:09
Alexander the Great was one and I've read a little bit on this because you and I have
37:13
both have beards.
37:14
Alexander the Great was one of the first historical men that he was by, by most accounts, homosexual,
37:24
but he was one of the first men to be completely shaven.
37:28
And so he transformed because he was so powerful and what he did was so incredible that people
37:33
looked at that and said, okay, well, that's the new cultural norm.
37:36
Your facial hair, bro has nothing to do with your masculinity.
37:40
Now we have facial hair because we're men.
37:42
So that's developed through the hormones that are coursing through a body.
37:44
But it really doesn't.
37:45
So I guess I should say it this way.
37:47
It has to do with your masculinity because it's biologically hardwired has nothing to
37:51
do with your man level of manliness.
37:55
I know some genuine badasses who choose not to have a beard or can't grow a beard, Frank.
37:58
Right.
37:59
Right.
38:00
That's nothing to do with that.
38:01
People say, like you just said, oh, well, in 400 years ago in France, they were really
38:05
wearing frilly shirts.
38:06
Right.
38:07
Because clothes don't define the man.
38:09
You know, in Scotland, they wear skirts, literal skirts.
38:12
Now they call them kilts, but they're skirts.
38:14
So does that mean they're less manly?
38:15
No, because it's just clothing.
38:17
All right.
38:18
Now, what you and I wear, there's a good friend of mine.
38:22
His name is Tanner Guzzie.
38:24
Do you know Tanner?
38:25
No, I know.
38:26
Oh, I should introduce you.
38:27
He's a really interesting thinker on these kinds of things.
38:32
Like styles change, right?
38:34
The way that we look, the way that we do our hair, sometimes long hair is the thing to
38:37
go, sometimes short hair, sometimes a beard, sometimes not.
38:41
Sometimes we wear plain t-shirts, you know, sometimes we wear something different.
38:44
Like styles change.
38:46
But again, just because in 400 years ago, they were wearing frilly shirts like you were saying
38:51
in France, doesn't mean that they weren't protecting.
38:54
They were warriors, doesn't mean they weren't providing, doesn't mean they weren't leading.
38:58
That's what defined them as men, not what they wear.
39:01
Now, let's flip this on its head a little bit.
39:04
You have guys like Harry Styles and some of these other notable influencers and entertainers
39:10
who are wearing clothes, and they're like, well, style doesn't define the man, but they're
39:14
not doing it because they don't think style defines the man.
39:18
They're actually doing it to rebel.
39:20
That's what they're trying to do, right?
39:22
They're wearing dresses because they're trying to rebel, not against cultural norms, but they
39:26
just want people to pay attention to them.
39:29
But if I stripped all of that away, if all of us were naked, let's just say nobody wore
39:33
clothes at all, we were all naked, you could strip masculinity and manliness down to those
39:37
three principles, protect, provide, preside.
39:39
Now what you want to wear or whatever, I don't care.
39:42
But if you're doing those three things, man, you're on that path to manliness.
39:46
But again, let's not pretend that the guys who are wearing dresses and putting makeup
39:49
on, guys have been putting makeup on forever.
39:54
Like the native American Indians and even further back used to put paint on their face
39:59
to intimidate enemies, right?
40:02
And now you have even 30, 40, 50 years ago, you have entertainers who are putting makeup
40:09
on to rile people up, to make themselves look different, to get attention.
40:16
But masculinity, man, that doesn't change at all.
40:19
Outward appearance, sure, maybe, but not masculinity and manliness.
40:23
So you're saying it doesn't change.
40:25
And I agree with you.
40:26
However, we got to talk about this and this might be old news by the time this podcast
40:29
comes out.
40:30
I'm blowing up my entire interview here, but this is going well.
40:32
So I saw yesterday from BBC that the new Superman is going to be bisexual, right?
40:37
So I guess this is, I'm not big on comic books, but I guess Clark Kent's son now who goes
40:42
by John Kent or something like that.
40:44
He's going to have a love interest.
40:45
That is a reporter, kind of like Lois Lane, but the reporter is a man.
40:49
And so he's going to be having a male love interest, but he's technically bisexual.
40:54
Also he's Superman, which is an inherently bigoted name, right?
40:58
Why don't they call him Super They?
40:59
I mean, wouldn't that make a whole lot more sense?
41:00
But at the same time for you doing what you do every day, this is a full frontal assault
41:06
on masculinity, because this is Superman.
41:08
This isn't some fringe character in some fringe series that only 14 people read.
41:13
This is Superman.
41:14
This is the original superhero, right?
41:17
What do you think about things when you see that?
41:19
Because again, like I said, that's a full frontal attack on what masculinity is, because
41:23
yeah, you made the point about Harry Styles wearing a dress.
41:25
When you walk by at the grocery store counter, that's going to jump out the page because
41:29
it's a dude wearing a dress.
41:30
But when a woman's wearing a dress, nobody thinks anything about it, but those are kind
41:34
of little things, right?
41:35
Those are little bitty shots taken here or there, but Superman, I mean, what do you think
41:39
about all that?
41:40
I don't care if Superman is bisexual or a straight, I don't care.
41:45
I really don't.
41:46
I don't care.
41:47
It's not...
41:48
Look, I know it's easy to...
41:49
And I see these guys like, "Oh, we're going to take a...
41:52
Just don't go watch the movie," instead, raise your son.
41:56
Instead go coach a baseball team.
41:59
Instead lead men to act more manly.
42:01
We get so wrapped up in the culture of entertainment and celebrities that we forget.
42:11
Your son's looking to you about how to behave.
42:13
Okay, so you're worried about Superman, but when's the last time you went and played catch
42:16
with your son?
42:17
And I'm not calling you out specifically.
42:19
I'm saying that the people that get wrapped up in this stuff, should he be bi?
42:23
I don't know.
42:24
I don't care.
42:25
Superman's not a man at all.
42:26
In fact, he's an alien, but he's not even a man... Like, let's take manliness.
42:31
All right, so one element of manliness is courage.
42:34
Would you agree with that?
42:35
Absolutely.
42:37
Is Superman courageous?
42:38
What do you think?
42:39
Yes or no?
42:40
Yeah.
42:41
I think no.
42:42
Okay.
42:43
You're not courageous.
42:45
Nothing could kill him.
42:46
Yeah, that's the problem they had back in the day is they were like, "Okay, this dude's changing
42:53
the trajectory of the planet and he's got to have something that can kill him.
42:59
He's not that interesting anymore."
43:00
Right.
43:01
I mean, yeah, he's got kryptonite for sure, but like, oh, so he's going to go knock out
43:06
a couple of thugs that he could run circles around like, "Is that courageous?"
43:10
No, it's not courageous.
43:12
Like, there's not a risk for him.
43:16
What is courageous is having a risk, having a risk of loss financially, physically, maybe
43:22
even your life, and yet deciding to act.
43:24
Superman isn't courageous.
43:27
Batman maybe is courageous.
43:28
Like, he's a human being.
43:29
Like, he can die.
43:30
He can get hurt.
43:31
He has people he loves.
43:33
Like, there's, there's things that could potentially, he's got, he's got vulnerabilities
43:36
and yet he decides to act and that's what courage is, right?
43:40
So again, I think we're getting a little sidetracked here, but yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot
43:43
that would distract us, you know, Superman's by the next James Bond as a woman, the next
43:47
this is that.
43:48
Look, man, just go play catch with your kid.
43:51
Like, just go coach the football team.
43:54
Just share what it means to be a man.
43:56
Get, get 20 of your best buddies or five of your best buddies and, and have fight night
44:00
this weekend and instead of just watching the fights, like, talk about real [inaudible].
44:04
You know, go, go to workout, go on a hunt, invite men to rally together.
44:08
Come to one of our events.
44:09
Come to one of your events.
44:10
Listen to our podcast.
44:11
Shoot somebody a text because you like this podcast and let's stop worrying about Superman
44:15
and James Bond.
44:16
You know, if you have a problem with that, here's, here's how we fix this, by the way.
44:20
You don't want Superman to be by, you don't want James Bond to be a woman.
44:23
Don't buy the effing ticket to go see the show.
44:27
You don't want the NFL to be woke.
44:28
Stop [inaudible] buying their season tickets, you morons, you know, everybody likes to complain
44:34
and cry and [inaudible] and moan and this is horrible and make a big deal out of it.
44:39
And yet you still have Netflix, you still have Disney Plus, you still have your season
44:42
tickets to the, to the NFL.
44:44
You still buy every movie that you can.
44:46
You still support these bands.
44:48
You still support these entertainers, you still celebrate these politicians.
44:51
And yet you complain and you [inaudible] in your mouth.
44:53
So what does that tell me?
44:54
It tells me you care more about [inaudible] and moaning and complaining and griping than you
44:58
actually do solving the situation.
45:01
Like stop paying these people.
45:03
You know, if nobody goes and sees the new bisexual Superman, guess what?
45:06
How many more supermans are going to be bisexual?
45:09
Zero.
45:10
Zero.
45:11
That's right.
45:12
Because they don't care about culture.
45:13
You know what they care about?
45:14
The bottom line.
45:15
You know, if the NFL with all these players kneeling and sitting down and all this kind
45:19
of woke [inaudible], the name, the latest one is what's that Raiders coach who made a couple
45:25
of races.
45:26
Roodin made a couple of comments 10 years ago, races, I'd say their racist comments.
45:31
But you know what, gosh dang, like if you have an issue, like let's stop talking about
45:36
it.
45:37
Just stop buying the tickets.
45:38
And enough people do that and we vote with our dollars, then the trajectory changes.
45:42
Nobody cares about the thing.
45:45
Nobody really cares about the thing.
45:46
What they care about is their bottom line.
45:47
You start impacting that.
45:48
Things will change.
45:49
When I tell people a lot, control the controllables.
45:52
And so I know, I know a lot of people that I'm glad you went throughout.
45:55
You did with that with that question.
45:57
They get outraged at what happens on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C.
46:01
They're absolutely outraged and flabbergasted and they want to call their local representative
46:05
and all these different things.
46:06
And I get it.
46:07
But they have no idea the name of their mayor, of their city.
46:10
They don't know their sheriff.
46:11
They don't know the name of the dog catcher.
46:12
They don't know any of these people that can have a direct impact on their life today,
46:16
like in the next few minutes, right?
46:19
And so you spend all this time distracted by the stuff that's going on somewhere else
46:22
and you forget about what's going on in your own household and your own neighborhood in
46:25
your own small community.
46:27
And I do encourage guys to make sure that they know these things that are going on because
46:31
those things may be happening over there now, but they're happening in your community the
46:34
next day.
46:35
So you need to be ready and prepared to push back against that darkness.
46:38
But I agree, a lot of men are just not, they're willing to fight the battles that have no,
46:43
they can't control at all.
46:45
Like people were shocked whenever I canceled Netflix after the cuties movie came out and
46:48
I was like, you're shocked?
46:50
Like this is child pornography on a main, no, I'm not going to give them $15 a month.
46:54
What are you talking about?
46:55
And my life has not gone down in quality one bit in the year, year and a half since I got
47:01
written Netflix.
47:02
I've read more books.
47:03
I've done a lot more other things, but we find these things that we just can't fathom
47:07
not having as a part of our life.
47:09
And as we kind of wind down here towards the end, I think it's important to really talk
47:13
about things that you've done specifically with your time, right?
47:16
So you're not wasting time with maybe the NFL or Netflix or something like that.
47:19
You've gotten into hunting.
47:20
You've gotten into jujitsu, but I specifically want to ask you about jujitsu because I try
47:23
to get basically every man that's able body to get into jujitsu and I get the normal excuses
47:28
like, oh, I'm afraid I'm going to get hurt or I don't know anything about that or I never
47:31
wrestled back in the day.
47:33
But for you specifically, what got you into jujitsu and even beyond that, what is keeping
47:38
you there?
47:39
Because there are dudes that try it for three, four months, and then they never go back.
47:42
What has kind of kept you on the grind of jujitsu?
47:45
Let me talk about the excuses.
47:46
Like I've never done it.
47:47
I'm too old.
47:48
I'm injured.
47:49
You know, I'm worried about that I'll get hurt like all of those are valid, which is
47:54
why they're your excuses.
47:56
Because if you're excused, didn't have some sort of validity, you wouldn't be able to
47:59
[inaudible] yourself into believing your excuses, like they have to have some element of truth
48:04
to it.
48:05
But you have to realize that there are just excuses and also there is a risk.
48:10
I might get hurt.
48:11
Yeah.
48:12
Actually, you might like you might do something dumb.
48:15
We had we had one of our guys, Ty Nichols, he's we I train with him every day, he works
48:20
with origin.
48:21
He's a purple belt.
48:22
He's an absolute killer.
48:23
Well, you know, six months or a year ago, he got swept or rolled or something and he
48:28
put his arm down and he hype extended his arm and, you know, he was out for four months.
48:34
You know, it was it was a stupid mistake that he made and, you know, he paid for it.
48:38
So yeah, there's an element of risk, but we already talked about risk, right?
48:42
There is an element of risk and if there's no element of risk, it's probably not worth
48:45
doing.
48:46
You know, if you want to start a business, you're going to have to take some risk.
48:50
You're going to have to cut away from your current work.
48:52
You're going to have to try to sell something.
48:54
You're probably going to have to pay a few bills on some savings.
48:56
Like there's a risk as it should be.
48:58
There should be a risk to it.
48:59
But would Jiu Jitsu specifically answer your question?
49:02
The reason I got into it was that I had a friend, I had a couple of friends, Matthew
49:08
Errington and Kip Sorensen, talking to me about it for a very long period of time.
49:14
And I've always wanted to get involved in it.
49:15
I was pretty athletic when I was a kid.
49:18
And then I had my friend Pete Roberts with origin invite me out to their week long Jiu
49:25
Jitsu camp here in Maine.
49:27
And I knew I was going to come out.
49:28
So I thought, well, I better have a few classes under my belt.
49:31
And so I got involved.
49:32
Now, I'll be really honest with you.
49:33
It wasn't something that totally spoke to me right away.
49:36
I went to a few classes and I enjoyed it.
49:38
I enjoyed the camaraderie, the other men.
49:40
I enjoyed the physical nature of it.
49:41
But like, I wasn't bought into it.
49:43
And I went to the Jiu Jitsu camp for a week, enjoyed it to the degree that I could, and
49:48
I went home and I got just busy distracted.
49:51
And then I ended up moving out here to Maine about a year later.
49:54
So I took a year break of Jiu Jitsu, and I got back into it when I moved here because
49:59
I trained with Pete and the rest of the origin team.
50:01
And I love it, man.
50:02
Like every opportunity I get and can, I train Jiu Jitsu because I realize it's what I need.
50:10
You know, I need to be physical.
50:11
I need somebody pushing back on me.
50:14
I need to be on the path to improvement.
50:18
I need the feedback of you're not quite good enough yet.
50:21
But I also value, you know, rolling with somebody and getting a sweep or getting a submission
50:27
that you've never got before.
50:29
I can't really articulate what it is, but it challenges me in a way that gives immediate
50:34
and instant feedback.
50:36
It keeps me physical and it keeps me engaged.
50:39
So a lot of guys will say, you know, Ryan, I'm trying to improve my physical fitness.
50:42
What's the best thing I should do?
50:44
Whatever's going to engage you.
50:46
If it's Jiu Jitsu, if it's CrossFit, do CrossFit.
50:49
It has strength training, dude, strength training.
50:51
If it's the desire to run a marathon in three months and that's what's going to keep you
50:56
engaged towards running to do that, I don't care.
50:58
It does not matter to me as long as it keeps you engaged.
51:01
And Jiu Jitsu has proven over the past two and a half, almost three years now to be the
51:06
thing that engages me better than anything in my entire life has.
51:10
One, the thing with Jiu Jitsu that I tell people is if you're not very flexible, Jiu Jitsu
51:15
is going to prove that to you.
51:16
If you're not very strong, Jiu Jitsu is going to prove that to you.
51:18
If you're not explosive, if you're not any of those things, but also it teaches you resilience.
51:22
Because the thing about it is you're always going to run into somebody that's better than
51:25
you.
51:26
You're going to run into somebody that's smaller, that can roll you up, that can sweep you.
51:29
And even for black belts, like people don't really understand, they're like, "Oh, I just
51:31
want to get my black belt."
51:32
It's like, do you understand there's levels to that too?
51:35
It's like, because you know, you went wide to blue to purple and you worked your way up.
51:38
But when you get to black belt, that's not where it stops for a lot of people.
51:41
That's where it starts.
51:42
Like one of my good buddies, one of my main training partners just got his black belt recently.
51:45
And it's just like, it's almost like he hit the reset button on his Jiu Jitsu life because
51:48
now he's competing against dudes that have been black belts longer than he's been training.
51:53
And so it's just, it's a lifelong resilience thing that a lot of guys really need to be
51:56
a part of.
51:57
So that's my commercial for Jiu Jitsu again.
51:58
But Ryan, I know we're running up against time.
52:00
We've talked about a lot of different things here.
52:02
Yeah, go for it.
52:04
So you talked about, you know, people want to get their black belt.
52:07
Well, that's wrong.
52:09
Like that's not the goal of Jiu Jitsu.
52:11
Like I want to have my black belt for sure.
52:13
And I think you probably, how long you been training?
52:15
About three or four years as well.
52:16
I'm a blue belt.
52:17
Yeah.
52:18
Yeah.
52:19
And so what are you a blue belt, purple belt?
52:21
Where are you in here?
52:22
Blue belt.
52:23
I've been training.
52:24
It was four years this summer.
52:25
And I'm, yeah, still blue belt.
52:26
My blue belt's a pretty raggedy though.
52:27
Cool.
52:28
Awesome.
52:29
I love it.
52:30
So like it isn't the black belt isn't the goal.
52:34
Now it'll happen.
52:35
You know, if you, if you're in it long enough and you're diligent and you were like that,
52:39
that will happen.
52:40
That's just a natural and inevitable outcome.
52:42
But it isn't the goal, what the goal is to go train tonight.
52:47
The goal is to be better today than you were yesterday.
52:51
And then if you stack enough of those together, then you're going to get your black belt.
52:55
But the black belt isn't, isn't anything.
52:58
It's, it's a literal, it's literally a piece of dyed cotton.
53:04
That's it.
53:05
That's all it is.
53:06
And so we get so focused on these goals and these objectives that we forget, man, I'm
53:10
getting better.
53:11
I'm improving.
53:12
My, my relationship is better.
53:14
My, my, the way that I look is, has improved.
53:17
And, and so you talk about these things like being more, being stronger and being more
53:21
explosive.
53:22
All of those will happen through Jiu Jitsu, but also if you really cared about the path,
53:27
whether it's Jiu Jitsu or painting or shooting or any number of things that you could choose,
53:31
then you would also do outside things.
53:33
So like I don't rely on Jiu Jitsu to get me strong.
53:36
I get strong so that it'll improve my Jiu Jitsu game.
53:39
Right.
53:40
Right.
53:41
And so I don't rely on Jiu Jitsu to stretch me out.
53:43
I stretch and that will make me a better tactician or when it comes to Jiu Jitsu.
53:49
But it is in the goal to get the black belt.
53:51
That's just like an inevitable result of the real goal, which is to improve every single
53:55
day and enjoy it and live it and be there present fully.
53:59
And you might have a little bit of a matte burn on your face, but hey, that is just war
54:04
paint, which means that you've done a good job that particular day.
54:07
But hey, yeah, I mean, you're probably sick like me, Kyle, and that you're a little bit
54:10
of maybe a masochist where, you know, you have a, like a black eye or a good like rash
54:16
on your face or, you know, maybe you got your finger caught in the ghee.
54:20
You trained ghee or no ghee mainly ghee.
54:23
So you get your finger caught in the ghee and it gets twisted and you feel like it's going
54:26
to break.
54:27
Like this ring finger of mine just does not move anymore and I love it.
54:32
I love it.
54:33
I wish it moved.
54:34
I wish it didn't hurt all the time, but also like when it hurts, I'm like, hell yeah.
54:38
That means I'm doing something, that means I'm living my life fully that I'm trying
54:41
to get better than I'm trying to improve.
54:43
And if that means that I have a finger that doesn't quite work as well as it should or
54:47
as as dexterity as it may be, it should be, then that that's great.
54:50
I'll take that all day long.
54:52
Absolutely.
54:53
Yeah.
54:54
This thumb here has been surgically reconstructed because of my love of jujitsu.
54:57
And if you look at my face and don't like it's because my nose is crooked.
55:00
That's also from jujitsu, but I wouldn't trade it for anything else.
55:03
I'd rather do this than play a bunch of more of a beer league softball.
55:06
So, but anyway, man, that is all for me up to this point.
55:09
We've talked about last stuff.
55:10
I'm sure we're going to do this again, but is there anything else you want to get off
55:12
your chest?
55:13
Anything else you want to get to our audience?
55:14
Yeah, I would just say turn the podcast off and get to work.
55:19
I know that.
55:20
I know that sound.
55:21
Kyle's like, cut that part out.
55:23
No, I know.
55:24
I know that I know that's a little counterintuitive for what you and I do brother because we're
55:28
podcasters.
55:29
But you know what?
55:30
Like I'm so tired of people thinking they're moving the needle by listening to you or me.
55:34
You're not moving the needle.
55:36
You're thinking about moving the needle.
55:37
You're preparing to move the needle when you can talk about a lot of things, but you're
55:40
actually not moving the needle.
55:41
So just hit end after Kyle gets through his finish here and just hit stop and then like
55:47
put your phone down and go play baseball with your kids or go sell something in your business.
55:55
Like just sell something in your business or go have sex with your wife or whatever.
56:00
Like do something and just use this as fodder to actually do something.
56:05
This is not the result in it of itself.
56:07
Like take this and then apply it and live a better life.
56:10
That's all I would say.
56:11
All right.
56:12
Ryan Mickler.
56:13
Thank you for coming on on Daunted Life Amanda's podcast.
56:16
Appreciate you brother.
56:17
Thank you very much.
56:18
There you go guys.
56:19
I hope you enjoyed my time with Ryan Mickler as much as I did.
56:21
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
56:23
As you know, by now, at Undaunted Life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness.
56:27
Specifically, we do that by providing content like this podcast that helps you forward spiritual
56:31
mental and physical resilience.
56:32
So I've got two links for you today.
56:33
One is to the Order of Man podcast, so you can check that out and listen to it wherever
56:36
you get your podcast.
56:37
But also I've got a link to his book, Sovereignty, The Battle for the Hearts and Minds of Men.
56:41
All right, guys.
56:42
Thanks so much for listening.
56:43
We do appreciate it wherever you're listening to this.
56:44
Please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive review.
56:46
If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email
56:49
to info@undaunted.life.
56:51
That's I-N-F-O at Undaunted.life.
56:53
Follow us on Instagram and TikTok and like us on Facebook and you can check out our website
56:56
for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your
57:00
way.
57:01
Just go to www.undaunted.life and we also want to thank the band August Burns Red for allowing
57:04
us to use their music for our content.
57:06
The Interaltio track on this podcast is their song "Cutting the Ties," which is off their
57:09
10th anniversary re-recording of their album Leveler.
57:12
The links are in the description.
57:14
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
57:16
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
57:23
Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
57:53
in the future.