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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:51
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:53
Let's get into it.
0:54
Our guys today have a special guest on the podcast, his name is Ryan George, so he's
0:57
the author of this book right here, then hold up in front of you, Scared to Life, Tales
1:01
of a Good God who reveals his heart when ours is racing.
1:04
And so this guy has done adventures on all seven continents in both polar circles.
1:09
And so in this book, he goes into a lot of the details about some of the stuff that he's
1:13
done.
1:14
He's done skydiving.
1:15
He's done bungee jumping on all the continents you're allowed to do on, except for one.
1:18
You know, he's done stuff with the poles.
1:19
You know, he wing walks on airplanes and all that kind of stuff, but we didn't spend most
1:23
of our time just basically going through all that and saying, oh, I wonder what that was
1:26
like.
1:27
And I bet you were scared.
1:28
We talked about his Christian faith.
1:29
We talked about how most people that are scared to death to do some of the things that
1:32
he's doing, why when he does them, he feels like it brings him closer to Jesus.
1:36
I asked him if he felt like adventures and seeking out these ventures was like an idol
1:40
to him.
1:41
So we had an interesting conversation about that.
1:43
And then about halfway through maybe a little bit over the halfway point of this interview,
1:47
we start talking about some things that we definitely disagree on.
1:50
And we start talking about, you know, how we are to love people and culture.
1:54
He's not a guy that thinks that we should be really as the church be speaking into culture
1:58
and pushing back in the culture war, whereas obviously I'm vehemently for that.
2:02
We've spent hundreds of episodes, basically equipping you guys to do just that.
2:05
But I want you to kind of, you know, listen to that part of the interview and think to
2:09
yourself like, how would you have reacted?
2:10
How would you respond?
2:11
What questions would you have asked?
2:12
But also realize that there were things that he said that if he and I were sitting down over
2:16
a whiskey in a scar, then we would have dug into all these different things and really gone
2:20
down every single rabbit trail.
2:22
But when you're doing a podcast, when you're doing an interview like this, you don't always
2:25
have the capability.
2:26
You don't always have the time to really go into all that.
2:28
So if you're wondering why I didn't ask him a follow-up question when he said this or when
2:31
he said that, it's because we have to kind of keep the ball rolling forward.
2:33
And I'd like to kind of find some ways and I wanted to find some areas where we would
2:36
have some common ground and where we would come together.
2:39
And then also he has some pretty good advice for you guys out there that are maybe feeling
2:43
like you're not being utilized well at your church.
2:45
Maybe your skill sets are a little bit different than the guy on the stage with the microphone
2:50
attached to his face or something like that.
2:52
But a way for you to think about it to where you don't just, you know, just diminish the
2:55
role that you have in what God is trying to do when people visit that church.
2:59
So I enjoyed my time with him.
3:00
So without further ado, let's get into it.
3:04
Ryan George, welcome to adult to life of man's podcast.
3:07
It's good to be here, man.
3:08
Thanks for having me.
3:09
Absolutely.
3:10
So let's start in the most broad way possible, but I guess it's the most important way possible
3:13
as well.
3:14
So you are a Christian.
3:15
You are a believer in Christ.
3:16
And so that's going to have a lot of through points to the stuff that we're going to be talking
3:19
about today, especially when we get into your book.
3:21
So give us the spark notes version as to kind of how you came to faith.
3:25
Was it part of your upbringing or, you know, kind of what led you to be being a follower
3:30
of Christ?
3:31
Yeah.
3:32
So I'm probably your only guest that's ever been baptized into three different religions.
3:36
I was sprinkled in one religion as a baby.
3:39
I was dunked as another one when I was five years old, and then I made a volitional choice
3:43
to follow Jesus in my twenties and got baptized at that time.
3:46
I grew up the son of a fire breathing pastor in the south, went to Christian college, homeschool,
3:52
Christian school, all of that, but it didn't become real to me until I left college and
3:56
got married and got out on my own and realized that some of the things that I thought were
4:00
true about the Jesus I knew weren't.
4:03
And I fell in love with a guy that I didn't know before instead of a guy looking to constantly
4:08
beat me down and just waiting for me to fail, I found one who was encouraging me to find
4:11
everything he is and man, it wrecked me.
4:14
And so I've been on a journey now for 15 years with that Jesus and leading men's ministry
4:20
and my wife's on staff at our church now, we just adopted a daughter.
4:24
So yeah, a lot of, a lot of cool changes happening in my life.
4:26
Well, let me actually talk about that.
4:28
And so we're going to pull off a band aid for somebody at some point this early in the
4:31
show, but I've always had a little consternation around and I haven't done enough really thinking
4:36
on this to have a fully fledged opinion.
4:38
So hopefully you guys give me a little bit of grace here, but when a child raises their
4:43
hand to accept Christ, part of me is like, yeah, but you, but no, it's like, that's not,
4:50
that's not really happening.
4:51
Like you don't even know anything like your brain's 20 years away from being fully developed.
4:55
You have no idea what you're raising your hand to do.
4:57
That's just water in there.
4:58
You're just getting dunked in water.
4:59
I remember when I was a kid right before my grandmother passed away of cancer, they,
5:03
they baptized her, but she had already been baptized like as a teenager, a young adult
5:07
or something like that.
5:08
And so I had this paradigm for quite a few years that, you know, you tried to get baptized
5:13
as close to death as possible because you have sin all over you, right?
5:17
It's funny now.
5:18
But at the time I was terrified.
5:19
I'm like, right?
5:20
I'm like, there's sin all over me and hopefully I can get to the water right before I die.
5:24
Hopefully I don't die like in a car accident or get mauled by a grizzly bear, the kind
5:27
of a thing.
5:28
But what, what are your thoughts on that?
5:29
Because obviously growing up with a father that was a preacher and all that.
5:32
And, and I don't mean to demean anyone that had that experience as a child or has a child
5:37
that is experiencing that, but I've always just had a little bit of a struggle there.
5:40
Yeah, I would agree with you.
5:41
I, I, I struggle with that.
5:43
So one of the things I'm thankful in our current church is that they vet the kids really well.
5:47
They have to wait for months.
5:49
They get interviewed by people who weren't there at the moment when they raised their
5:52
hand, right?
5:53
They got cross checked, if you will.
5:54
And they look at the fruit of their life to go, Hey, is it has there been a change in
5:58
this kid's life?
5:59
Is there obvious signs that this kid is following Jesus, which I really appreciate?
6:03
At the same time, I have friends who met Jesus when they were five, six, seven years old
6:07
and are still in love with that Jesus like they, I don't like hard and fast rules about
6:13
a lot of things in my faith.
6:14
And so I'm not going to, I don't know when the age of accountability is, I think there's
6:18
a whole bunch of mysteries there.
6:19
What I, what I take hope and solace in is that Jesus knows and he sees our hearts.
6:24
And so maybe it isn't even a raising a hand moment.
6:27
I have had friends who gave their life to Jesus and it wasn't an altar call.
6:31
It wasn't the center's prayer, it was this thing changing their heart forever.
6:34
And so I think that is one of the things that religion gets wrong is that we turned getting
6:39
saved into walking an aisle saying a prayer going through certain motions.
6:44
For me, it was peer pressure, you know, I was coming out of, well, when I was a baby,
6:47
I didn't have a choice.
6:48
But when I was a little kid, we were all coming out of vacation Bible school and the girl
6:53
in front of me was getting baptized and there was a live sheep there.
6:55
And that was really cool.
6:57
So, you know, there's all kinds of things that go into it.
7:01
I will say, I don't think it was real for me, but I wouldn't say it wasn't real for somebody
7:05
else.
7:06
Yeah.
7:07
And I think, I think that's probably going to be a good place to leave it as well because
7:08
I've always thought about the fruit thing as well.
7:10
Like, yeah, these people go through this dramatic experience at a big church, they watch the
7:14
rock concert, they get their TED talk with a few Bible verses, they raise their hand.
7:17
And then it's like, then that's it.
7:19
There's no fruit change in their life.
7:20
But I was always like, well, a five year old, two degree just sucks as a human.
7:24
And so how could they like suck less as a human the next day, like they're just, they're
7:28
bad at everything, right?
7:29
Because they're five.
7:30
And so anyway, but we'll get off that subject because I do want to get into the book that
7:33
you shared with me.
7:34
Thank you so much for sending this copy my way, but it's called scared to life.
7:37
Tales of a good God who reveals his heart when ours is racing.
7:40
So very unique concept, again, I'll hold up there for people to check it out, but very
7:44
unique concept of this book, obviously this book details a lot of adventures that you've
7:49
done and gone on in your life.
7:50
So there's a quote earlier in the book and it says this.
7:53
So I understand why friends and strangers categorically rule out certain adventures.
7:57
I have empathy when I reply that embracing my fears scare me to life.
8:02
So obviously that's an owed to the statement that everybody makes like, Oh, I'm scared
8:05
to death.
8:06
I'm scared to death to speak in public.
8:07
I'm scared to death to go on that rollercoaster, whatever.
8:10
But you use the phraseology of scared to life and maybe that's common, but I had never heard
8:13
that before.
8:14
So I guess for you, have you always sought adventures?
8:17
Is that something that you just realized one day that you wanted to do all these types
8:21
of things, and then I guess maybe back into why you wrote the book in the first place.
8:25
Yeah, I would say how adventure looks changed for me over the course of my life.
8:29
You know, a kid doesn't have disposable income in American Express points and the freedom
8:33
to ask their boss off from school.
8:35
It just wasn't my family vacationed one time between kindergarten and my when I graduated
8:40
in high school.
8:42
So going out and doing the things I do now going to all seven continents, both polar
8:46
circles, climbing mountains and jumping out of planes and stuff just wasn't an option.
8:49
So it looked different.
8:50
When I was a kid, it was jumping my BMX bike off a car ramp, you know, or like going and
8:55
sitting on the roof when my parents weren't looking or whatever.
8:58
So but where it really started to blossom, I took my brother on a senior trip in 2006
9:02
from high school.
9:03
He was homeschool.
9:04
So one of the beautiful things about homeschool is you can pick where you go on your senior
9:06
trip and I took him to New Zealand for two weeks and we jumped off of a building and
9:10
airplane cliffs, all kinds of stuff.
9:12
And I was hooked and he was like, nah, I'm going to head to the military.
9:15
So we had two very different reactions to that.
9:17
But as far as where the book came about was, um, I actually started writing it the day
9:21
that Anthony Bourdain took his life because here's a guy that did different adventures
9:25
in mind, but still very diverse, very global, very unique, right?
9:29
Like very few Americans have done what that dude has done, but he did him without Jesus
9:33
and it lent to a specific spot and I went, okay, now I've done this knowing Jesus, but
9:38
I've like, people don't look at bungee jumping necessarily as a faith thing.
9:42
I do now, but I didn't at the time.
9:44
So I look back and say, okay, I've done the seven continents.
9:47
I've done all this stuff wasn't empty for me too.
9:50
And as I went back through and I'm going trip by trip looking through, I was like, no,
9:53
I met Jesus here.
9:54
I saw the heart of God here.
9:55
I experienced something about spiritual community there.
9:57
And I was just kind of overwhelmed by how much I experienced God in those trips.
10:03
And so, um, I've been blogging about my adventure since 2006, 2007, something like that.
10:08
And people would say, and you should write a book, but finally when it came together
10:11
was, was, with, with that suicide to go, man, why am I still alive?
10:14
Why didn't I come to that same spot?
10:16
Because Solomon's right.
10:17
You take any train of pleasure, whether it's adrenaline rush, sex, you know, drugs rock
10:22
and roll, all that stuff.
10:23
The end of that train is meaningless if Jesus isn't in it, right?
10:27
And the, the high wears off, the euphoria wears off on all the different things I do.
10:32
I go out on the wings of airplanes while they're doing aerobatic maneuvers, which is awesome
10:36
for, you know, a few hours.
10:37
And after that, your life goes back to normal and you have bills to pay.
10:41
But there's this through line of what I learned from Jesus and what I've come to expect from
10:44
Jesus when I travel and do crazy things that I really wanted to share with people.
10:49
So there's something interesting about your book where, well, there's actually a quote
10:53
is somewhat lengthy, but I think it kind of goes into a lot of the areas that people
10:57
might automatically be like, well, this doesn't make any sense because that's kind of where
11:00
I was at the beginning is like, how does standing on the wings of an airplane like a moron, you
11:04
know, connect to Jesus?
11:05
Like, you know, that's kind of where my brain went.
11:07
So let me read this quote here.
11:08
What I'm saying is leaning into your fear is worth it for the record.
11:12
I'm not toying with venomous snakes playing chicken with on the oncoming train or opening
11:16
the emergency exit on commercial flights.
11:18
Please hear me.
11:19
I'm not advocating a death wish.
11:20
Don't go stand in the middle of the interstate and ask Jesus to reveal himself.
11:24
He will answer, but that's it.
11:26
But differently than you're hoping.
11:28
At the same time, the way of Jesus is often not safe.
11:31
While he tells us over again, not to fear, he keeps putting us in those places in places
11:35
that reasonably cause fear.
11:37
Personally, I think that's by design.
11:39
We don't need faith in Jesus when we're comfortable.
11:41
We don't need to trust his sovereignty when everything's just a religious ritual.
11:45
As long as we are in a relationship with an infinite being, there will be questions and
11:49
doubt, discomfort and uncertainty.
11:52
So when I read that quote, Ryan, I immediately wrote in the margin, but I don't think Jesus
11:57
meant risking your life by doing all these like crazy things because you just kind of
12:01
glazed over that walking on, you know, airplanes on the wings and, and doing some, you know,
12:06
the skydiving type things and go into the polls and you're doing things that are somewhat
12:11
considered to be needlessly reckless with the only body that God gave you.
12:16
Now, now again, there, there are lines to all this.
12:19
You're not, you know, throwing the safety precautions to the wind.
12:23
You aren't sitting there trying to kiss a rattlesnake on its mouth.
12:26
Like you're not doing those things.
12:28
But at the same time as I'm reading through some of these adventures, I was like, is this
12:31
really necessary?
12:32
Did you not see Jesus the last time you walked on the airplane wings?
12:37
Do we have to do it again?
12:38
Is that making sense?
12:39
Mm-hmm.
12:40
Oh, yeah.
12:41
I mean, I get it.
12:42
I also know this is wired into me and I don't know if, if it's nurture or nature, my dad
12:48
jumped off of all kinds of things.
12:49
The first time my dad ever drove a vehicle, he put it up on two wheels.
12:52
My dad's the one that taught me how to jump a bike.
12:55
So whether it's nature or nurture, this is how I am.
12:58
And I, if I don't do something that scares me every few months, like something inside
13:03
of me starts to tick, right?
13:04
Like I need, I need to go scratch that.
13:06
But at the same time in my faith life, because it's true, like if the judge shall live by
13:12
faith, we don't have faith when we're, when we're comfortable, then we have to have a
13:16
little doubt, a little fear or both to overcome or else we don't need faith.
13:20
So if I have, I have to be expecting the same way I need that adrenaline rush.
13:26
I need to expect the Holy Spirit to give me an uncomfortable assignment, something hard
13:29
to say to somebody, a difficult conversation, maybe an apology, maybe a confession.
13:34
I've met a bunch of guys who could jump off an airplane but couldn't confess this into
13:37
their pastor, right?
13:39
So which one of those is crazier?
13:41
And I mean, the science bears out, most of the stuff I do is safer statistically than driving
13:45
your car to the airport to leave to go do it.
13:48
So it's all about calculated risks.
13:49
I'm always in a harness.
13:50
I'm always with a professional.
13:52
There's backup.
13:53
There's radios.
13:54
There's all that kind of stuff.
13:56
But some of the stuff that I don't have in that and it's actually scarier for me is the
14:00
relational stuff and the spiritual stuff in my daily life.
14:03
And I find it interesting that people think it's so crazy that I go out on the wings of
14:06
airplanes but not crazy that I invite someone with a different political opinion over for
14:09
dinner, right?
14:10
Like, to me, I think that's the bigger risk right now in our culture to go, "Oh, well,
14:13
you voted differently than me.
14:14
You have a different demagogue than me or whatever.
14:16
I'm going to talk to you or I'm going to invite an uncool person out to a lunch or breakfast
14:21
or whatever."
14:22
Or one of the hardest things for me, I'm an Enneagram 7, I really have a hard time sitting
14:26
with pain and I have, over the last several years I've had buddies go through horrible
14:29
divorces and want to go out and talk about it.
14:31
I've been married for 22 years, I don't know that pain and so it's uncomfortable for me
14:34
to sit there.
14:36
Every time I show up for that, just like every time I jump out of a plane, I am rewarded
14:40
for that faith and I get to see Jesus show up and I get to have you four moments going,
14:44
"Man, God, you knew what you were doing.
14:46
You gave me a art assignment and then you showed up to help me do it."
14:50
I think the rub might be, Ryan, that the consequences of the mistake of inviting someone over for
14:55
a dinner that has a different worldview from you is not that you're going to fall off the
14:58
kitchen table and then another subsequent 2,000 feet and then go splat on the ground.
15:02
I think that's the difference for people to where it maybe doesn't make sense to their
15:05
brain because they can read all the same data that you read about, "Oh, this is technically
15:10
safer and it's technically this.
15:11
Oh, the airplane is not going to crash.
15:13
You're going to crash, but what I do know is when I'm on the ground, I'm on the ground
15:16
and I can't fall out of the plane from like to my death if I'm not in the plane to begin
15:21
with."
15:22
So I think that's where a lot of people are coming to.
15:23
See, I would push back on that though because the eternal consequences of not forgiving
15:27
someone or not asking someone for forgiveness or not living out the way of Jesus in front
15:31
of somebody who needs to see an exception to what they see in the news is of much more
15:35
consequence than me hurting myself.
15:37
I have not gotten hurt doing any of this stuff that is on my resume.
15:41
And I don't know that that's sovereign or not, lucky or not, whatever.
15:45
But I think it's the stuff in my life that is of greater consequence, for instance.
15:49
So I didn't want to be a dad.
15:50
I took it off the table.
15:51
I was married 18 years.
15:52
I was on a stand-up paddleboarding expedition up in British Columbia.
15:56
The helicopter back to civilization, find out I have a daughter living in my home.
16:00
And for the last three and a half years, I've been a dad, something I didn't want to do.
16:04
The consequences of taking in someone else's child that was in a very bad spot is way
16:08
bigger than anything I've ever done in an airplane and scares me more frankly.
16:12
And so I think what it is is people, I'm trying to change the narrative, people go, "Oh, that's
16:16
crazy."
16:17
It's like, yeah, but not following the way of Jesus has just as big a consequence as
16:21
they just don't look as bad to your insurance adjuster.
16:24
Don't worry, we'll get into the insurance adjuster here in a second, that was funny.
16:28
But you know, I'm struck by hearing you talk about it.
16:31
Do you think it's possible that, and to be fair, you could say this about anything that
16:36
anybody likes?
16:37
So take that with a grain of salt, everybody listening right now.
16:40
But does it seem like you've made an idol out of adventure?
16:44
Not because some people say adrenaline junkie and all that.
16:46
It's like, there's a certain guy you have in mind, and I don't think that's necessarily
16:49
you when you have someone that's literally an adrenaline junkie.
16:52
Those are the people that are pushing the boundaries as far as they possibly can, and
16:56
they're being very, very risky and careless with their life.
16:59
I don't think that would describe you, Ryan.
17:01
But when someone says, "Hey, this might be an idol of yours."
17:04
What would you say to that?
17:06
So it's funny that you say that because I've had to lay down idols a lot, but it's not
17:10
the adventure itself.
17:12
So the adventure is the pathway to what it is that I was looking for.
17:15
So I was abused as a child.
17:18
I was bullied in school, one of the reasons my parents took me out of Christian school
17:22
to homeschool me.
17:23
I wasn't one of the cool kids in college.
17:25
And so when I first got to disposable income and started my business in the early 2000s,
17:29
was right when we got social media, and what adventure gave me was affirmation that I'd
17:33
been waiting 20 years to get, right?
17:35
And so there's a whole bunch of times where I was scared out of my head, but as soon as
17:39
I turned that GoPro on, I call it digital courage.
17:42
Like some guys liquor up to get liquid courage, I would turn on that GoPro to get digital
17:46
courage because what I wanted was the likes, comments, and shares later.
17:49
What I wanted was what actually happened.
17:51
I'd have people in my life come up to me.
17:52
This happened multiple times and say, "I live my life vicariously through you."
17:57
And at first I was like, "Yeah, that feels awesome, especially if that fits in seventh
18:00
grader who got bullied all the time."
18:02
And I was like, "No, no, no, I want you to go live your own life."
18:05
And so what happened was is the idol was legacy.
18:08
I wanted more people at my funeral than anybody.
18:10
I wanted the most amount of friends on Facebook.
18:13
I wanted people to like me as adventure guy and I became a persona.
18:18
So it wasn't the adventures themselves.
18:20
Those were just a tool to get where I wanted to go.
18:22
I could get there several different ways that I have in my life, different personas that
18:26
I've taken on.
18:28
It is habit forming.
18:29
I mean, scientists have proven this, I mean, it's like sex or alcohol or some of these
18:34
other things.
18:35
Like the chemicals that rush through your body are very, very intense.
18:38
And I can tell you, you do start to itch when you don't get it every once in a while.
18:43
On the other side of it, one of my adventure buddies, the guy who's trained me in a lot
18:46
of whitewater stuff, he said, "I need to do this every few months in my life to force
18:51
me to true communion moments where I have to get right with every single person in my
18:54
life.
18:55
Make sure I've got nothing between me and God because if this is the day, I want clear
18:59
accounts."
19:00
And so what happens is we get these moments where we have to get right with everybody.
19:04
If I go up on the wings of that plane and I don't come home alive, I want to have left
19:08
everything in good order.
19:09
And so it's a great way to reorg-- it's kind of like when you get ready to move and you
19:13
have to get rid of a bunch of junk in your house because you'd rather get rid of it than
19:16
put it on the truck and then unpack it again.
19:18
That's what these adventures do for me, particularly the big ones, is to make sure, "Hey, am I good
19:24
with my daughter?
19:25
Am I good with my wife?
19:26
Am I good with my brother?
19:27
You know, all the way around."
19:28
Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.
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19:58
So let's talk about insurance adjusters.
20:00
So I'm aware of that world and some of the things they're in and the list of things that
20:07
they ask you if you do, before they will allow you to get live insurance and all that, which
20:12
makes them a good company.
20:13
So this was, there was a quote from the book where this was where you had to give up your
20:17
motorcycle.
20:18
And so is your wife, Crystal?
20:19
I'm assuming?
20:20
Yes.
20:21
Yes.
20:22
Okay.
20:23
So I'll just read the quote here.
20:24
Crystal's rationale is sound too.
20:25
She explained it to me this way.
20:26
When you do those other things, so she's talking about the, you know, jumping out of airplanes
20:30
and bungee jumping and all that other stuff, you're always with a professional or an expert.
20:35
If you had a motorcycle, you'd be doing it by yourself.
20:38
I trust the professional.
20:39
I just don't trust you.
20:41
Everything that sounds harsh, know that I fullheartedly agree with her because I remember
20:46
like some guys would read that and be like, Oh man, this woman's just trying to hold her
20:49
man down on that type of thing, like getting rid of the motorcycle.
20:51
But it's, it is wisdom because you can blame a bunch of different people if someone dies
20:57
bungee jumping.
20:58
Right.
20:59
There are a lot of people that are responsible, not just the guy that decided to jump off
21:02
the platform.
21:03
Right.
21:04
There are a lot of people that can't be responsible, but when people wipe out on their bike, like
21:07
that's when when guys ride their bike and like, dude, I'm great on my bike.
21:10
I'm never getting to wreck.
21:11
I'm like, dude, you're part of the equation.
21:13
There's everybody else on the road that is in that math as well.
21:17
But take me through what that process was like because I think that may have been the
21:20
first time where you went through a strict process that questioned this adventurous attitude
21:26
because this life insurance company is going to be like, well, no, we're not going to cover
21:29
your life if you're going to be so careless as to own a motorcycle or do any of these
21:33
other things.
21:34
So there's a couple of caveats since that since I wrote that book, my wife okay to motorcycle
21:37
and I've already wrecked one, that's the only adventure I've gotten hurt on.
21:42
I was back.
21:43
I didn't need surgery.
21:44
I was back to rock climbing within six weeks, but yeah.
21:47
So what I like to focus on that story is how many things my wife said yes to like a lot
21:51
of guys would go, oh, you won't let me have a motorcycle.
21:54
But my wife had like three notes.
21:55
She said no squirrel suit flying, no motorcycle and no, I don't know if you ever seen this
22:00
jump that Travis Pastrana does, but he jumps out of an airplane without a parachute.
22:04
Yeah, so do the whole thing from the movie point break.
22:07
Yeah, basically.
22:09
And so those are the only three things she said no to.
22:12
And I was like, there is a world of things that I'm literally all seven continents of
22:15
things that I've been doing.
22:16
She was there.
22:17
She was the one that photographed me surfing in the Arctic.
22:19
Like, you know, she's very, very supportive.
22:22
So I think that's there's a lesson in that first of all to go, hey, let's look at the
22:25
things that Jesus said yes to in the world that we can do instead of the things we say
22:29
no to.
22:30
Let's look at if things our wives say yes to and not the things that they say no to because
22:33
if you're like me, that list is a lot larger.
22:36
But just to go through that list and go, yeah, and actually since that book came out, I've
22:39
now done all 10.
22:41
So it was a list of 10 no, no, I needed a motorcycle for one.
22:44
I can't remember what the other one was, but I've done all 10 now.
22:47
And I got life insurance anyway.
22:49
I found a company that didn't ask those questions, but I think it is it's kind of cool to look
22:54
at our bucket list and say, what is it that's still out there and why do you want it kind
22:57
of going back to that addiction thing you were talking about is to ask yourself the question,
23:02
why is it important to me to get my seventh continent?
23:05
Why is it important to me to do this?
23:07
And is that something God put in me or is that the vanity in me?
23:10
So I'll give you one coming up.
23:11
I don't have a good God reason for it, but you can only bungee jump on six continents
23:15
and I've got five.
23:17
So this year here in six weeks, I'm going down to Peru to get number six.
23:22
It's such a random goal, right?
23:24
But what I have found is there is a difference between going bungee jumping or hiking or
23:28
backpacking or racing cars and looking for Jesus while you do that.
23:32
So you can say, hey, I'm going hiking today, which I'm doing tomorrow morning before work,
23:37
or I'm going to go look for Jesus in the woods while I hike.
23:40
And what happens is it changes your expectancy to where you will find you.
23:44
He promised those who seek me will find me in the Old Testament.
23:46
They said you will find me if you seek with your whole heart.
23:49
And so I've gone to some pretty random places and initially not for the right reasons.
23:53
And Jesus said, but if you come expecting to see me, I'll show up.
23:56
And I've got story way more stories are in that book of where Jesus showed up and ambushed
24:03
and said, you came here for this, but I want you here for for instance, a couple of years
24:07
ago, I went to Nepal to do some paragliding in the Himalayas.
24:12
And we got there.
24:13
I got to go the first day.
24:14
I took out a kid that we had supported growing up through a ministry.
24:17
And then after that, we had cloud cover the whole rest of the week.
24:20
And so it was just me and Jesus every day, me in a laptop looking at the sky going, okay,
24:24
I flew all the way over here, however, at 20 times zones away, 18, whatever it was.
24:28
And I didn't get that.
24:30
So what do you want me to find here?
24:32
And I've had that in Iceland, I've had that in the Faroe Islands.
24:34
I've had that in the Arctic everywhere I've gone.
24:36
If you go looking for Jesus, you will find it.
24:39
The bonus is you get an adrenaline rush along the way, at least in my life.
24:43
Gotcha.
24:44
So to kind of, I want to get into some other subjects that came up through the book, but
24:47
I didn't almost put a wrap up on some of the like adventure stuff.
24:50
So you say in your book that you don't have a favorite adventure, but I don't play those
24:55
games.
24:56
All right.
24:57
Like I don't do this whole mealy mouth, you know, hang on the fence type thing.
24:59
I like left or right.
25:01
I like hot or cold.
25:02
I like black or white.
25:03
So if you had to literally blot out all of the adventures you've ever done, Ryan, from
25:09
your memory, like literally men in black, like, but you lost all the memories, but you get
25:13
to keep one memory of one adventure.
25:16
I need one.
25:17
Well, just because we came to cover the book, I'll stick with wing walking.
25:23
If I had to pick only one adventure to do for the rest of my life out of all the ones
25:26
I've done, I would do via Ferrata.
25:27
I love via Ferrata and it's booming in North America now is in Europe first.
25:32
I'm not familiar with what is that?
25:34
So if you take a piece or rebar and bend it into like the shape of a staple, like a U
25:37
and then drill that into a mountain, the Italians develop it during World War I to get up and
25:42
over the Alps because they knew the Austrians were waiting in the valleys because for centuries,
25:47
you had to go to the valleys to move your troops, right?
25:49
And I said, but what if we could take everything up and over the mountains so they developed
25:52
a system of staples that you climb mountains.
25:54
So it's like rock climbing, but instead of holding on to the rock, you're just climbing
25:57
rungs, right?
25:59
And so I've done it in Italy, where I started, I've done it in Canada, the U.S., different
26:02
places.
26:04
The best one in the States is in Colorado.
26:06
They've got some sick ones out there.
26:08
But anyway, it's such a cool thing.
26:09
You can camp one night.
26:10
I did it.
26:11
We hung sleeping off the cliff, you know, with a portal edge.
26:14
So you can do it all different ways.
26:15
The biggest ones and the coolest ones are in Europe.
26:18
My buddy and I are going to Slovenia next year to do some of the biggest.
26:20
That 2,400 feet of elevation change in one clont, like so it's really cool stuff.
26:26
And that one is really cool because it combines a lot of things.
26:28
And I would say if there was a second to that, it would be paragliding because paragliding
26:32
is so peaceful.
26:33
It looks dangerous.
26:34
Like for someone on the ground, it looks like skydiving, but running off a mountain
26:37
and just kind of floating around in the thermals, like with the birds, it's a very transcendent
26:42
experience.
26:43
And there's a lot of control.
26:44
It's very, very safe in that.
26:47
So yeah, I would say that of the past, probably wing walking in the future would be via Ferrata.
26:51
Okay.
26:52
Sounds good.
26:53
Well, let's get into some other subjects that kind of came up for the book.
26:55
There's a short quote that I wanted to kind of bring up.
26:57
It's this brotherhood and sisterhood blossom when we ask our friends for context for reminders
27:02
and for scripture, accountability flowers when we ask them to check in on us.
27:07
So I wanted to talk about this because I think accountability is very, very important.
27:10
But one thing that I think that a lot of especially men's ministries get wrong is you show up
27:15
to the event and then they just stick you in a circle of guys that you don't know, right?
27:20
That the people that you met five seconds ago and they say, all right, talk, you know, let
27:24
out all the emotions, let out all the stuff that you don't want to admit to anybody else.
27:28
And it's like, well, I haven't, I don't know these people, like I don't know these men.
27:32
I don't trust these men.
27:34
We haven't done anything hard together.
27:36
We haven't experienced any elation or accomplishment or something like that.
27:39
They're sticking me in here.
27:41
But the only way that you get true accountability, Ryan, is when you have someone that you can
27:45
trust because back in the day, whenever I was really struggling with pornography and masturbation,
27:49
this was a very, very long time ago, there was one guy in particular that I would send
27:54
him an innocuous text about basketball and he knew what that meant for me.
28:00
That meant I would be alone at some point because I didn't want, you know, if his wife
28:03
was checking messages or my wife's checking messages, you know, that would just been weird
28:06
and maybe even hurtful for them to see, but it would be an innocuous basketball text.
28:10
And that meant he had to stop what he was doing to pray for me because I was about to be entering
28:13
into a zone of temptation.
28:15
But then the entire time that I was tempted, I would be thinking about my friend and thinking
28:20
about he's going to check in tomorrow and I need to give a good report to him.
28:24
And so that was something that was very, very important for me.
28:26
But the only reason that worked was because I deeply trusted him and I knew he was not
28:30
going to violate that trust for likes on Facebook or to prove a point in an argument or something
28:35
like that.
28:36
But I just wanted to you up to talk a little bit about that because you talked about brotherhood
28:38
and sisterhood and how that ties in with accountability.
28:41
Yeah.
28:42
So it does foster you were talking about having moments of elation or accomplishment together
28:47
that foxhole mentality.
28:49
I've seen that a lot on these adventures, particularly whitewater or any of these backpacking or
28:53
any of these group dynamics where nobody, it's not a good day unless everybody makes it to
28:57
the end, right?
28:58
Like you can go down a whitewater river and have the ride of your life.
29:01
But if one of your buddies dies, it's going to be one of the darkest days of your life,
29:06
right?
29:07
And we've done some scary stuff together.
29:08
And so yeah, that that part is true.
29:09
Like, that's one of the reasons I do adventure.
29:11
I go to a very adventurous church.
29:12
One of my pastors flies experimental aircraft.
29:14
One used to be an ice climber and whitewater paddler.
29:17
One used to race motorcycles.
29:18
It was a wilderness guide.
29:19
I've got all these spiritual mentors, a whitewater guide.
29:23
I am around people who have training and experiential education where they go, okay, we just did
29:28
this scary thing.
29:29
Now with something back home, just what you're talking about, with something back home that's
29:32
really hard for you or a line in the sand you've not crossed that now you know is arbitrary.
29:37
You never ask for help with this because of whatever your background is.
29:41
So I would say adventure does help with that.
29:43
But one of the things that I've done in starting the men's group that I have now is to reframe
29:47
all of life as an adventure.
29:49
So I call it a spiritual adventure community to go, okay, here's what we're going to do
29:52
this week.
29:53
We're going to dare each other to do this in our marriage or do this with our kids or
29:56
to do this in our jobs or whatever it is.
29:58
And like what you're saying next week, check in on each other, but it is it does have to
30:03
be earned.
30:04
You can earn it really quickly on a physical adventure, a backpacking trip or whatever,
30:08
or you can earn it over time like you said.
30:09
So our Bible study almost exclusively meets outside when it gets cold, we meet around
30:14
a fire, guys show up and pick up trucks, most of them are lifted, you know, like I'm in
30:19
Redneck, Virginia, so and I'm I'm one of them.
30:22
So yeah, so I think there is a part where you have to earn that trust.
30:27
But I do think the principle of calling guys out to share those things is is a worthy ask.
30:35
I wouldn't do that the first Sunday.
30:36
Like what you're saying, I wouldn't do that with strangers.
30:38
I would try to connect what we try to do is we try to connect guys in ways that we start
30:42
the conversations in other places and then finally bring it around to that.
30:46
One of the things that we have a do group is you don't have to pray, but you have to
30:50
be prayed for.
30:51
And so what you'll find over time is the prayer requests go from superficial to deeper.
30:55
The more Wednesday nights that they show up, right, and the more time they spend around
30:59
the fire and some of the guys won't admit it that whatever it is in their life, whether
31:02
it's the sin or struggle or insecurity, whatever, they won't do that in the circle.
31:06
But maybe an hour later around the fire when I'm the only one there waiting for the cold
31:10
to die down, it'll come out.
31:12
And so it is an earned trust.
31:13
It's not just a microwave instant, but you can push that envelope by having guys go first.
31:20
So one of the phrases I live by is give others the gift of going second.
31:24
So if the person up there that you respect the adventure guy goes out on planes says,
31:27
hey, this is where I'm insecure and this is where I'm scared and this is what I'm afraid
31:31
to do in this relationship to go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, or they go, hey, you didn't
31:35
want to be a dad for 18 years, you took it off the table and now you're leaning into
31:38
this for on mission for this young lady to go, okay, you've earned my trust.
31:44
And so I think as leaders for us to go first and to go deeper and to set the bar and say,
31:49
hey, this is what you can expect.
31:51
And it doesn't all have to be met in that circle either.
31:53
I see a therapist every week, I talk to my wife about really hard things, I have different
31:57
mentors in my life that go to struggles.
32:00
But I think we need to have multiple environments like that and it is earned over time.
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32:33
Well, and Ryan, I think you bring up a fantastic point, which is just there's so much expectations
32:40
of pride and men and the expectation that they they're never going to lay their guard
32:44
down because they got to keep the mask on.
32:46
They got to keep you thinking that their business is absolutely going amazing, that their marriage
32:50
is just as clean as their lawn or their car or whatever, like they've got to keep that
32:55
especially I live in a community where there's a ton of that.
32:57
There's a crazy level of depravity when you talk to pastors in our area, but you would
33:01
never know it from these people because you know what?
33:03
They've got the money to make the little problem go away so that they don't have to explain
33:07
to people in the community that their daughter's kind of a skank like that they've got they've
33:11
got things that they can do to take care of things and to where they don't actually have
33:15
to deal with it.
33:16
And so I really like the idea of being like, Hey, I'm the adventure guy, I'm the whatever
33:19
guy, but here's where I struggle.
33:21
That's why I try to be really honest whenever I do this show about the things that I'm maybe
33:24
ignorant on or the things that I used to struggle with to be like, look, do you think I'm some
33:28
special because I talk into a microphone on a weekly basis, but I'm no different, right?
33:33
I just have different gifting and there's different things that I would want to do.
33:35
So I really appreciate you bringing it up that way.
33:37
And one other point, it will actually get your feedback on this before we move on just quickly.
33:42
Men connect shoulder to shoulder, women connect eyeball to eyeball, right?
33:46
That is generally true.
33:47
So when I say men need to accomplish something together before they circle up, the paradigm
33:53
that I have in my brain is the tribal culture where the men were going out to hunt.
33:58
They weren't going to sit there and like, you know, razz each other and, you know, sit
34:01
there and talk about life and all that until after they had killed the beast.
34:05
And so that all happens once they're circling the beast, cleaning it up and taking it back
34:08
and then maybe later on that day, they talk about some of the things, some of the insecurity
34:12
is how they tripped and fell and we're so glad nobody saw them because, you know, that
34:16
could have ruined the hunt or something like that.
34:18
But talk to me a little bit more about about men, how they really need to accomplish things
34:21
together, as opposed to just assuming they can end up in that group and be just fine,
34:25
just talking.
34:26
I don't know that I 100% agree with that because I've seen part of that accomplishment
34:31
is finding healing.
34:34
So we've had a lot of guys come through my ministry that have gone through divorce and
34:38
they just need a shoulder like they just need someone to listen.
34:41
So it is shoulder to shoulder, right?
34:42
Like we'll sit around a fire.
34:43
It's one of the reasons I love a fire because everyone's looking into a fire.
34:46
They're not looking at eyeball to eyeball or we'll go on a hike.
34:50
I do a lot of hiking.
34:51
I call them sanity hikes.
34:52
I'll say, hey, let's go hiking.
34:53
Well, you're hardly ever looking the dude in the face while you're hiking, right?
34:57
But I've had some of the most profound conversations while doing that are going a road trip.
35:00
So I live near the Blue Ridge Parkway and I live near the Appalachian Trail.
35:04
So let's go on a car trip.
35:06
You're both looking at the windshield like I went on a motorcycle ride with a guy this
35:09
weekend and we're looking at the foliage on the Blue Ridge Park, which is gorgeous, right?
35:12
And then when we break to get gas and get a Coca-Cola or whatever, now we can talk about
35:18
marriage or whatever else.
35:19
And so I don't know that it has to have an accomplishment as long as people feel, those
35:24
guys feel like they don't have to be that persona.
35:28
And so I think what is inherent for us and what's important for us as leaders to go,
35:33
hey, I'm going to show you no persona to start with.
35:36
So we don't have to go through that whole ritual first.
35:39
Now, if there's rituals great and we do those two, we'll build a huge fire together and
35:43
we'll go shooting guns together or we'll go ride four wheelers together.
35:46
I mean, we do those things, but what I found is guys don't need that.
35:50
I had a 72 year old guy come up to me after a couple of weeks in our group and he said,
35:54
you know, I've been following Jesus my entire adult life.
35:56
We're talking five decades here.
35:58
He said, I've never experienced anything like whatever I'm experiencing here.
36:01
This is amazing.
36:02
We hadn't done anything at that point.
36:04
We were meeting next to a wakeboarding boat in somebody's garage, but I mean, we weren't
36:07
physically going out and doing he just felt like for the first time in his life, he didn't
36:11
have to pretend.
36:12
And so I think part of it is how we build those environments, right?
36:16
Like is this for show, which I think one of those men's conferences is it's not a great
36:20
place for that.
36:22
I just I wouldn't start there, you know, but starting at a local coffee shop or on the
36:26
local trail or one of the guys I used to run with Tuesdays and Thursdays, when you're
36:30
running together, you're not looking at each other in the eyes.
36:32
But man, we unbared our hearts to each other, and then we turned around and started offering
36:36
that to other guys.
36:37
And they were like, well, if these guys, you know, we were both successful entrepreneurs,
36:40
if we're willing to be open about the struggles in our marriage or whatever, then I can be
36:44
too.
36:45
And what we found is guys that weren't willing to share washed out.
36:49
And one of the benefits of that, especially what I love, so we have guys from four different
36:53
churches coming to my Bible study, is we don't have to keep everybody.
36:56
We don't have to chase.
36:57
We'll follow up if you miss it for a while, but we just want everybody running after Jesus.
37:01
And so if you're not willing to be real, if you're not willing to set aside your ego
37:05
and your facade and your mask, there's plenty of churches where you can go be that.
37:10
You can go be.
37:11
I live in the south.
37:12
There's just in my town, there's like 250 churches in what was the phone book, right?
37:16
You can go get cultural Christianity if you want it.
37:18
But if you want to run after Jesus, this is how we're going to do it, and you're welcome
37:22
to join us.
37:23
And so I think there's part of the appeal there is that we just, I hate to say we don't care.
37:29
We do, but we're going to run after Jesus if you want to run with us great, you know?
37:34
I think I think the overall point is doing something.
37:38
So no, it doesn't have to be active, doesn't have to be killing an animal because that's
37:41
been taken away.
37:43
People are way all over their skis like you can't be a Christian unless you like camping
37:46
or killing animals, not necessarily the truth.
37:48
But I think that that's very important to realize that it's when men are doing something,
37:51
even the small act of going on a run or going on a walk or staring at the fire, that does
37:56
open it up for these other things.
37:57
So there was one section of the book that I read and it struck me as odd.
38:03
And I don't want to assume that you're meaning anything that you weren't meaning.
38:07
So I want to read this section here because it was in the same chapter, but it's two sections
38:10
that are kind of apart.
38:11
So just follow me here, probably the same kind of people that feel opposite of people
38:16
with different skin colors, different sexual orientations, different interests and preferences,
38:20
different socioeconomic realities and different political philosophies.
38:23
It's not just Westboro Baptist spewing claims about whom God is against.
38:27
In the past, it's been me.
38:28
And there are times when I wouldn't type or voice such declarations, but my behavior
38:33
demonstrated that against this, against this.
38:36
The irony comes in a very short list of people Jesus actually stands against.
38:41
And so you say this a little bit later, atheists aren't the opposite of believers.
38:45
Whether we are God's adopted children or not, we were all made in his image.
38:49
Jesus isn't against any of these categories because he loves everyone.
38:54
So here's something that I kind of struggle with with that whole thing.
38:57
I feel like a lot of people like to hide behind the moniker of be known what you're for,
39:03
not what you're against.
39:05
Jesus wouldn't say anything about that because I wouldn't say anything about that.
39:10
And I mean, just to be honest, atheists are literally the opposite of believers, like
39:14
because they literally don't believe in the things that a believer would believe in.
39:18
And so the thing that I guess I struggle with is I see a lot of this kind of modern, squishy
39:22
Christian thing where it's like, hey, we don't want to talk about abortion.
39:26
We don't want to talk about a fundamentalist Islam.
39:28
We don't want to talk about LGBTQ plus we don't want to talk about any of those things
39:32
because we want to be known for what we're for.
39:34
However, if what you're for is the gospel, you have to apply that to all of the things
39:39
I listed and more.
39:40
And so again, I didn't want to just assume that you meant something nefarious because
39:44
I doubt that you do.
39:45
But I did just want to give you a little bit more of a platform to explain maybe what
39:49
you meant there because if guys buy this book and reading guys that will be in the show
39:53
notes so you can pick up a copy for yourself, that would probably strike their ears a little
39:56
funny as well.
39:57
So I want you to give us a little bit more context there.
39:59
Well, first of all, I'd say I hope I hope that does.
40:02
I just I just did a 10 week study I led my guys through on what does the Bible actually
40:07
say about Christian nationalism, right?
40:09
Like, let's study what this is about.
40:12
And all of us at one point in the study got a little uncomfortable because there were
40:15
parts where like, did Jesus actually say that?
40:17
So I firmly do believe that atheists aren't the opposite of us.
40:22
They're human beings with the same, the same insecurities, the same fears, the same worries,
40:29
the same goals in life.
40:31
They've just found a different way to I'm not condoning their lifestyle or their belief.
40:36
What I'm saying is there's humans.
40:38
And if we look at who Jesus actually spoke against, he spoke against religious frauds,
40:43
people who were using the religious system, he didn't really speak a whole lot about
40:47
the issues in his culture.
40:48
He didn't, he had a nationalist and a traitor in his disciples.
40:52
He had Matthew the tax collector who was a trader in their system and he had Simon
40:56
the zealot and he's like, I'm not coming to fix any political systems.
40:59
My kingdom is not of this world.
41:00
I'm not changing the school system.
41:02
He didn't change any system.
41:04
He came to change the people.
41:05
So at the end of his career, if you call his ministry, he changed some of the tax collectors,
41:10
but he didn't change the tax system, right?
41:12
He changed some of the prostitutes, but he didn't change the way that that was in the
41:17
culture.
41:18
Women were treated like dogs.
41:19
He didn't change that system.
41:20
He went to one of them and said, hey, don't send any more, but I don't condend me either.
41:24
So I think the problem is when we get into an argumentative culture, we think that we
41:29
have to take the gospel to beat people over the head with it, that what people hear is
41:34
your God will never like me.
41:36
Your God will never love me.
41:37
And the fact is he died for all of us.
41:39
And so I'm not for abortion, I'm not for any, like some of these things that are on your
41:47
website or whatever is to go.
41:49
You don't have to be for that to be for people because what Jesus says, yeah, Matthew, you
41:54
are a traitor to your country, but I want you to follow me.
41:58
And the guy who threw the first party for Jesus was someone from the other side of the political
42:02
trap from him, right?
42:04
He came to save Israel and the whole world.
42:06
So he didn't join the Zionist movement either.
42:08
So I think if we actually follow the path of Jesus, it's countercultural.
42:13
We love as Christians to talk about Jesus in the temple, getting out the whip and going
42:17
after people.
42:19
But the fact of the matter is he never deputized his disciples to do that.
42:22
Nobody else joined him in that or did it for him.
42:24
And he only did it once.
42:26
And actually him using the whip instead of what he could have done as the son of God
42:29
showed meekness.
42:31
And I think we're trying to prove the world with a bully pulpit and with fists figuratively
42:36
that they need to change to our way when I think more people, Paul wrote about this
42:41
in Romans, he said, it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance.
42:45
And I'll give you an example of this.
42:46
So my adoption attorney sat on our couch and said, I don't understand why this adoption
42:50
is.
42:51
We've crossed every tee and dotted every, I don't understand why it's going through.
42:55
The one judge said, we had more documentation than he'd ever seen in the case.
42:58
And I said, Sarah, I know why because I didn't want to be a dad and God loves the irony of
43:04
me fighting to be a dad now, because now I see his heart fighting for me, how he chased
43:08
me, how he loves me, what his love can do.
43:10
Three months later, that adoption attorney was on the stage at our church, getting baptized,
43:13
giving her story at the podium before she got in the waters.
43:15
And she said, I was hurt by the church.
43:17
The church came after me before.
43:19
I didn't want nothing to do with God, but I saw how much this couple pursued in love
43:24
in a situation where I had no faith that was going to work out and they did.
43:27
And I'm here to get to say that I gave my life to Christ.
43:29
And now she's in a Bible study, she's serving in our church.
43:32
She saw, she was living a lifestyle different from you and me, right?
43:35
But what she saw was that God's love is the greatest love I've ever seen.
43:40
And it doesn't have to be squishy and emotional and pop psychology, that we're not talking
43:44
to Brene Brown.
43:45
You know what I'm saying?
43:46
Yeah.
43:47
But the most radical thing about us and the greatest adventure we have in this world is
43:51
to prove to the world that Jesus loves them ferociously, no matter what they've gotten
43:56
themselves into, no matter.
43:58
And personally, I think a lot of the dysfunctions that in abortion situations and LGBTQ situations
44:03
and all these other situations are hurt people, right?
44:05
Like there's trauma involved that leads to things.
44:09
And we have enough sin in our own camp to worry about what the world is doing out there.
44:14
Let's be that ferocious about what's going on in the church.
44:17
My dad is one of the 700 Baptist pastors who've been caught molesting children.
44:21
I'm more upset about that than whether or not my daughter's going to walk into a same-sex
44:25
bathroom.
44:26
That's just not as important to me as my dad using religion to cover for his gross sense
44:32
and all the pastors around him who've done that.
44:35
So what I'll say is we can speak to culture when we finish and clear all this stuff out
44:39
of our house.
44:41
After that, let's love wealth because Jesus said that we won't be known for being correct
44:45
or having the right doctrine.
44:47
He didn't say believe in me.
44:48
He said, "Follow me."
44:49
And then he said, "You will be known as one of my disciples by your love and your unity."
44:53
So let's love with everything we can and I'll give you another example.
44:57
So there was a gay guy on my shift in Antarctica.
45:00
And I was talking about my church and he's like, "You know, I don't go to church, but
45:03
I would go to your church."
45:05
And we're still friends in having these conversations.
45:07
He's not giving his life to Christ.
45:08
He's still in his partnership.
45:10
But there is a bridge that's built there, right?
45:12
I'm not going, "Hey, you have a different view of sexuality than I do."
45:16
But he said, "If I ever went to a church, Ryan, I would go to yours."
45:19
Why is that?
45:20
Because I'm the first Christian he's met that hasn't said, "You're going to hell.
45:23
You're a gross.
45:24
You're whatever."
45:25
You know what I'm saying?
45:26
There is a way to, if someone came to you and said, "You know what?
45:29
All people who look at porn are going to hell before you met Jesus," then you may never
45:33
have met Jesus.
45:34
But if you said, "Hey, Jesus loves you and we all make mistakes," and some of the things
45:38
that Christians get the most banana shape of in the United States aren't on the list
45:42
of the most deadly sins, like all the lists and priorities.
45:45
These are the things that the Lord hates.
45:48
Hatred is one of those.
45:49
Lying is one of those.
45:50
We're seeing so much hypocrisy in the church and so much lying by our leaders that I don't
45:56
understand why we're critiquing culture when it's in the calls coming from inside the house.
46:01
And so let's clear our own house out.
46:03
Let's love the best way we know how.
46:05
And you'll be amazed at people far from God with horrible stories and backstories, how
46:09
they find Jesus.
46:10
So just to be clear, you don't think we should push back against any of the darkness and
46:15
culture until we all become squeaky clean, like perfect inside the church.
46:20
You don't think we should speak into any of the cultural depravity at all?
46:23
No, I think what we do, there is not an example, I mean, look at the red letters of the Bible.
46:29
There is not an example of Jesus going after the Romans, going after anybody outside of
46:33
the religious establishment.
46:35
So what I say is, it's not our job to be a lawyer for Jesus.
46:41
That's just not my job.
46:44
I have a really hard time with hypocrites.
46:47
Now we're all going to sin, right?
46:48
But here's what I've learned is to go, hey, and you did this earlier in a podcast, which
46:51
I greatly appreciate.
46:52
You go, hey, I struggle with porn and masturbation.
46:56
That automatically brings somebody's walls down, right, to go, yeah, oh, I do that because
46:59
I've been in cultures, you have been to and sports complexes and wherever else where that's
47:04
okay, right?
47:05
They joke about their what when they were looking at whatever else, right?
47:09
So when we say, you know, no, no, I struggle with that and I have a problem with that.
47:12
And this is what the, and you explained this very well, here's all the boundaries I had
47:15
to build around that all of a sudden you're counter cultural.
47:19
And we see that when Nicodemus came to Jesus, right, because all the other religious leaders
47:23
who are all on this cabal to kill Jesus, he comes around like, Hey, can I talk?
47:28
And that happens so much with people who are completely different walks of faith from
47:32
you or lack thereof, you know, an atheism, whatever, is that they go, Hey, can we talk?
47:38
And what you'll find is that we can make Jesus utterly attractive, not by being perfect,
47:43
but not by being hypocrites, right?
47:45
There's a difference between being broken and being, having sin in our life and being
47:48
a hypocrite.
47:50
And then you look at all the polling that Christian organizations and secular are doing
47:53
about why people are leaving the church right now.
47:55
It's the number one or number two answer is always hypocrites.
47:59
And they're trying to do political things, whatever else that, that one of the quotes
48:02
I heard was that it's not that people don't believe in Jesus, they just don't think that
48:06
the church fully believes in Jesus.
48:08
And so what I, what I want to be is do I look like Christ's example more than anybody else?
48:13
I know I can't change the whole world.
48:15
I can't change the systems.
48:16
I can't change the racism that lives around here.
48:19
My daughter is black and she will have people come up to her and say, Hey, can I have a
48:23
white person wait?
48:24
I mean, I don't want you serving me, right?
48:26
And this happens multiple times.
48:28
And I want to fix the racism around her, but you know what I can do is I can be a white
48:32
dude that loves her ferociously and that she can see that my Jesus and my God is a little
48:36
bit different than the redneck down the street, right?
48:39
And so what I think is that we got to take it from platforms to person to person.
48:42
We have to have these conversations person to person.
48:46
I have so many people in my life who will speak about, let's say the CRT issue or whatever
48:50
else, but they don't have friends on the other side of the aisle that they're sitting down
48:55
with having conversations, right?
48:57
Or whether it's LGBTQ or any of these other things you mentioned is like, where are you
49:03
having that face to face encounter rather than platform to platform?
49:07
Because platform to platform doesn't change lives.
49:10
Most life change happens within three feet, right?
49:12
Happens around a fire and I've seen guys change their political opinions.
49:16
I've seen them change their, their sexual activity, all that stuff, not from being beat
49:21
into them.
49:22
Hey, this is wrong.
49:23
This is wrong.
49:24
This is wrong.
49:25
Love with Jesus and my love for Jesus is greater than my love for alcohol, for premarital sex,
49:30
for porn, for whatever else.
49:32
If we can show that Jesus is utterly attractive, I really think Paul is right, that it's his
49:38
kindness that will lead people to repentance.
49:40
We're not going to change systems, but we can change people in those systems.
49:43
You change enough people in a system, the system changes.
49:46
American history is filled with that, the great awakening and other times like when we
49:49
went into prohibition, right?
49:51
That wasn't because of a government movement.
49:53
That was because so many people had, of faith had moved toward a certain position.
49:56
I'm not espousing the prohibition, whatever, but, but you see what I'm saying is so many
50:01
people in culture changed that they can't, oh, no, no, no, no, we need them.
50:05
This is going to change our government and they actually made an amendment to the Constitution
50:08
because so many people have believed in the biblical call to not be drunk, right?
50:15
So a lot of things there, we won't be able to really unpack all of that.
50:19
There's a struggle.
50:20
I think a lot of people that are listening to this are going to really go into is it seems
50:22
like when you're like, okay, focus on how Jesus loves people and focus on that stuff
50:26
and only look at that.
50:27
It's like, hey, only look at the lamb of God because the lion of Judah is very, very scary.
50:32
And the problem is, is whether you're doing it from a platform or whether you're doing
50:35
it from three feet across from somebody, you need to let people know that they're sin
50:40
nature, not their mistakes.
50:41
Like the we all make mistakes thing doesn't mean anything.
50:44
That's a bumper sticker, but like their sin is enough to separate them eternally from a
50:49
loving God and they will spend eternity in torment and torture if they don't trust in
50:54
Jesus.
50:55
That is the only way that they can have propitiation for their sins.
50:58
And so at some point, what I feel like a lot of people do, Ryan, I'm not necessarily saying
51:01
you're doing that because obviously we haven't talked about this long enough, but a lot of
51:04
people would say, hey, you know, just do whatever you want to do sexually.
51:08
Jesus loves you.
51:09
Hey, kill your baby.
51:10
It's fine.
51:11
It's the system around you that's not going to come around and support you.
51:14
That's totally fine.
51:15
Just love Jesus.
51:16
The problem is that Jesus did clear the temple and there's actually evidence that he did
51:20
that twice.
51:21
But let's just say he did it once.
51:22
He cleared the temple.
51:23
Why did he do this premeditated level of aggression is because people were sinning directly
51:28
against the father and if you're reading the Bible, you realize that there aren't red
51:31
letters and black letters.
51:33
They're all red letters because if God is if Jesus is part of the Triune God, then they're
51:36
all his words, right?
51:38
And people love to talk about the things that Jesus say and the things that Jesus didn't
51:41
do.
51:42
But when you look at the entirety of scripture and get the entire story of scripture, you
51:46
know which things that we are told to do that are not moral and what things that we
51:50
are told to do that are moral.
51:52
And so I think that's the clarity that people want because it's really easy to say, I'm
51:56
going to be no one up for what I'm for, not what I'm against.
51:59
But it's the things that you teach a child like, Hey, I'm against this action.
52:03
And if you do this action, that's bad.
52:05
So talk to me a little bit more about that because again, I don't want to put words in
52:08
your mouth and I want us to come to a better level of understanding.
52:12
But I'm just, I'm not there where I'm just like, Hey, let's ignore culture until we get
52:16
all of our stuff straight inside the church.
52:18
I think we'll never be able to get out of that.
52:20
That's just going to be a wheel that keeps turning.
52:22
Yeah, it's a ciphyen, right?
52:23
I mean, it'd be really hard.
52:25
I think one of the things that you just said that I very much agree with is he says that
52:29
to his children, right?
52:31
And so there's not a lot that where he's preaching, he's calling out people who aren't
52:37
following him, right?
52:38
The people that Jesus said, Hey, go and send no more.
52:40
All of those people were within earshot speaking of early church history.
52:45
So it used to be a practice.
52:46
The way abortion used to be done before it is now is they would have the baby and then
52:50
just take it outside the city gates and leave it on a stone or leave it in the forest and
52:53
let it go.
52:54
Exposure.
52:55
Exposure, right?
52:56
And I mean, that was common.
52:57
It was not taboo, everybody in culture and the Christian church in the first several centuries
53:02
would go out and pick up that child and bring it in, right?
53:05
And people go, wait, and they didn't get like now foster, you get some money from the government,
53:09
right?
53:10
You get an option, whatever else.
53:11
Like they just did this in a time when they didn't have money when their lives were at
53:15
risk and everything else.
53:17
That changed the culture upside down within 300 years.
53:20
What was taken as this is how culture is done, right?
53:24
It went completely the other way to Christianity becoming a state religion, right?
53:29
Because of the example of people.
53:30
And so what I say, it's not that we don't confront sin.
53:32
I confront sin other people, people confront sin and me all the time.
53:35
The people that we confront and Matthew 18 is about this other places as we confront our
53:39
brothers and sisters.
53:40
And then we live out the gospel as best we know in front of them.
53:43
And of course, we share it verbally as well.
53:45
I'm not saying that we hide.
53:46
I'm not saying we don't watch the news, but I still think that I don't think that I don't
53:52
think Christians dream big enough.
53:54
I think they want a political solution when it's an eternal solution.
53:57
I think they want something they want to and I'm forevoting what you believe and I vote
54:01
for what I believe in as well.
54:04
But I think we can say, I'm going to vote for this rather than I'm going to go make a
54:07
prayer, I'm going to go befriend somebody in that situation.
54:10
I'm going to bring an Onewood mother into my home for the next eight months, right?
54:14
I'm going to.
54:15
So I think there are ways to make a difference.
54:16
And we hear stories like this all the time, Aaron judge, you just set the home run record
54:20
for the American League.
54:21
Yes, he did.
54:22
And that's a very important, not just for the American League, Ryan, for all the baseball,
54:25
but that's another.
54:26
That's another.
54:27
Yeah.
54:28
But I'm saying from a technicality, I would agree with different things.
54:32
But the, yeah, it's like his life became, and he's a follower of Jesus, which I didn't
54:36
know until it came out.
54:37
And he said, he grew up in a Christian home.
54:40
So what happened was his life was saved by people who love Jesus.
54:42
And so now here we have this guy who's got a huge platform, we can talk about Jesus because
54:46
people love him.
54:47
And so I think it's more practical than we want to make it.
54:50
It's so much easier to make a tweet than it is to, to make a text and call something and
54:54
say, Hey, can we go and talk about this?
54:56
We have a phrase at our church that we use all the time called help me understand.
54:59
So someone would come to me and be like, help me understand, like you say you follow Jesus,
55:03
but I'm seeing this like what, what don't I know, right?
55:06
And so I think you can have that.
55:08
And then if we give permission for unsaved people in our life to ask us, help me understand
55:12
that, right?
55:13
Or if we've built up relational capital with that guy at work and go, Hey, help me understand
55:17
why you said this about your wife.
55:19
Like I follow Jesus and that doesn't sit well with me.
55:23
And so what happens is you can become men of honor.
55:25
We can still be these courageous men.
55:27
I just don't think it has to be necessarily killing an animal.
55:30
I have friends who I'm not against hunting.
55:32
But what I'm saying is this, it doesn't have to be this huge, gnarly, violent thing.
55:36
This is the, the most crazy adventurous, wild thing we can do for the gospel is, is confront
55:41
somebody but doing it in love and not being like, don't you know how messed up yards go?
55:46
Help me understand how you got to this place.
55:48
After the George Floyd murder there, one of my black friends said, Hey, if any of you
55:53
guys want to come talk about this, I'd love to sit with you.
55:56
I was the only guy that showed up and I had a neighbor did the same thing we sat in his
55:59
backyard and he's like, ask me questions.
56:01
And I want to ask you questions.
56:02
Can we do that?
56:03
And my pastor brought a black pastor up onto our stage and said, Hey, help us understand
56:08
this.
56:09
Now we didn't, it wasn't to come to the BLM side of the ledger.
56:13
It was just like, here's a bunch of questions we have and we need to save space to have
56:17
those questions.
56:18
And I think you can have that with your friends who are being sexually promiscuous or whatever.
56:21
Just be like, how's that working out for you?
56:23
Your friends who are drunk and you're like, Hey man, I've had to pick you up three Friday
56:27
nights in a row.
56:28
How's this working out?
56:29
You keep telling me this is fun and this party lifestyle is awesome.
56:33
How's this working out for you, man, like you're broke all the time.
56:36
Like there are different ways that we can come into and go and do it with compassion
56:40
and be like, Hey man, I don't appreciate how you talk to your girlfriend in front of my
56:44
wife.
56:45
Like that that's not appropriate, right?
56:46
Or whatever the topic is.
56:48
So there is a way to speak truth in the culture, but I think it has to be more personal.
56:52
And I think we're afraid of the work that you have to do to do that on an interpersonal
56:58
level.
56:59
We can debate about whether how you express opinions online, whatever else, but I would
57:04
much rather be known for how I loved people.
57:07
And I have people who struggle with different things in their life messaging me on Facebook,
57:10
who have different politics than me, different sexuality than me, whatever else.
57:14
Hey, can we meet for coffee?
57:16
Because you go, Hey, your Jesus is approachable.
57:17
And I just want to have that conversation and I would much rather have that conversation
57:22
than never having it because I offended them online because I was posting inflammatory
57:26
things.
57:27
And I just think we have to move the movement to interpersonal and move it off of these,
57:32
you know, big public statements and signing documents and, you know, all those kind of
57:35
things.
57:36
One thing that I might speak into that, and then I have one question before we get you
57:39
out here for today because I know we're running up against time, but love, I think for a lot
57:43
of people, they define love too narrowly.
57:46
And what they think love is is just to cosign everything that somebody else does so that
57:50
they don't have to have the awkward conversation about, Hey, what you're doing to yourself is
57:53
detrimental.
57:54
That's the example of the guy going out and drinking and all that, because I know this
57:57
is going to be breaking news to most people.
57:59
So if you go out and drink a lot of times, it's usually going to lead to some deleterious,
58:03
kind of bad decision making on your part, waking up with somebody you didn't want to
58:06
be waking up next to driving your car recklessly, like any number of things.
58:10
And so some people in culture, Ryan would say that love would be to say, Hey, man, I
58:15
know you're struggling right now with drinking, but you know, I'm here for you, I'm praying
58:18
for you, and that that would be loving.
58:20
But what the loving person would do would find them to smack that bottle out of their
58:25
hand and say, we're not doing that anymore, brother.
58:27
You're going to the drunk take and the drunk tape is my pool in my backyard.
58:31
And we're going to take care of this right now.
58:33
There are a whole bunch of different levels to love and people get really, really, really
58:36
offended when you want to say that, Oh, you're your version of love is judgmental.
58:40
Well, guess what?
58:41
Jesus's version of love was judgmental as well, because he drew a line in the sand between
58:45
center and not because yes, he spoke about the religious establishment, but he spoke about
58:49
the centers and was very, very clear where they would end up if they didn't put their
58:52
faith in him.
58:53
So again, that makes some people uncomfortable.
58:55
I know you wouldn't cosign with everything I just said, but I do want to kind of bring
58:58
something out because I think that will it will end here.
59:01
This is a minor point of your book, but I feel like it could be almost like a major
59:05
theme of the entire book.
59:07
And I don't even really have a question, you know, prepared.
59:09
I just want to kind of flow through it.
59:11
You might be the most happy church parking lot greeter in history ever because how you
59:17
describe yourself in your book is the number of conversations that you've had with people
59:21
just by being a really nice, like over the top polite person in the parking lot and how
59:27
that sets them up for the environment that they're going to be moving into.
59:30
You're the first, you know, person they see and potentially the last person they see before
59:34
they leave.
59:35
And I guess why I wanted to bring that up is because we've put a lot of emphasis on the
59:40
person on the stage with the microphone attached to their face and their messages that they
59:44
bring and how good they are and how funny they are and the books that they write and
59:48
all that.
59:49
And that's fine.
59:50
Like I love those people as well.
59:51
I'm the guy on the stage with the microphone attached to my face a lot of times as well.
59:54
Like I get it, but the people that are making the coffee, the people that are knitting blankets
1:00:00
for the newborn babies, the women that are holding the newborn baby, so mom and dad can
1:00:05
go to Sunday school or go into the church service and not be freaking out for two hours
1:00:09
of their day.
1:00:10
The parking lot of tenant, those types of people serve such an important role.
1:00:14
And it's not to set the stage for this event, which is church because the church isn't
1:00:19
a place.
1:00:20
It's it's a body of believers, right?
1:00:22
But I want you to talk to me a little bit about that because I found that to be inspiring
1:00:25
because I know there are people, Ryan, that feel like they are less than because they've
1:00:29
been gifted in a way that's not exhortation.
1:00:31
That's not preaching.
1:00:32
That's not speaking.
1:00:33
And they think, Oh, I'm doing one of these lesser things.
1:00:35
It's like, no, brother, you're doing exactly what God equipped you for.
1:00:39
Go.
1:00:40
I've been on the parking team now for 16 years.
1:00:43
It's the environment where I've been discipled.
1:00:45
I was backpacking with my pastor in Switzerland and I got sick.
1:00:47
And so he's like, Hey, I'll hang out with you at the hotel tonight while the other guys
1:00:50
go on.
1:00:51
We'll meet him around.
1:00:52
And he said, Ryan, you run an incubator.
1:00:55
Like look how many of the guys on the parking team have come to Christ or they just came
1:00:58
to Christ and looking for a first sort of opportunity.
1:01:02
Marriages are getting put back together, addictions are getting beaten.
1:01:04
We've had people literally give their life to Christ between the cones on our asphalt.
1:01:09
This past Sunday I had supernatural encounters happen in the asphalt that only had to be
1:01:14
Jesus.
1:01:15
Like you're just like, what are the chances that this would happen?
1:01:17
Right.
1:01:18
And so part of it is not just looking at it as less than more than I mean, I went through
1:01:22
that early on in my ministry, but part of it is going, no, no, this is how Jesus wired
1:01:26
me.
1:01:27
And so like, if again, just like going around the world looking for him to go on, let's
1:01:32
be expectant that in the eight seconds we have to talk to somebody or the 30 seconds when
1:01:36
they get out of their vehicle that something sovereign is going to happen.
1:01:40
Let's pray for that.
1:01:41
So my buddies and I, this past Sunday morning, we prayed that Jesus would show up and do
1:01:44
something amazing on our parking lot.
1:01:46
And it happened.
1:01:47
Like there's a guy probably coming to my Bible study for the first time last night with
1:01:49
a bunch of pain in his life that just opened up within 45 seconds of getting out of his
1:01:54
Ford F 250 Sunday morning.
1:01:56
So I think part of his expectancy and going, no, no, no, no, I can look for Jesus while
1:02:00
I'm backpacking.
1:02:01
I can look for Jesus while I'm changing diapers.
1:02:03
But our church, whenever they change a diaper, they tell the parents, right, because they
1:02:07
want to guard against sexual things.
1:02:10
And then when they change a diaper, they pray for the child and they write the, the prayer
1:02:14
on the card, like, this is what I prayed for your child while I was changing their diaper.
1:02:17
Right.
1:02:18
Well, I've seen so many parents take a picture of that and put that on their Facebook, like
1:02:22
look at what this, this person was changing my kids diaper, praying over this specific
1:02:27
thing in their future.
1:02:28
And so I, I think what it is, we just bring our best selves to whatever it is.
1:02:32
My wife is an incredible artist and she does live paintings during the service and art
1:02:37
and stuff.
1:02:38
Like, there have been people, it doesn't do a whole lot for me.
1:02:41
I'm impressed because she's, she's good at it.
1:02:43
But like spiritually doesn't do that, but there are people who like come forward and
1:02:46
are like holding their heart, looking at like, can I get that pain?
1:02:49
Like, and people around this town have those paintings up and to remind them of what Jesus
1:02:54
spoke to them.
1:02:55
So I think what happens, we have to look at all of us are called to, to different things
1:02:59
and that all of them are equal, none of the, none of the gifts, none of the lists of the
1:03:03
gifts of the spirit are ranked and none of them are, none of them are gendered either.
1:03:07
Like they're just, Hey, here's all the gifts that everybody gets.
1:03:10
You got at least one now go and, and to be open to it and, and to embrace it.
1:03:15
So for years, I was like, yeah, I'm just out here in the parking lot, you know, I have
1:03:19
a college degree.
1:03:20
I write devotional books.
1:03:21
I should be on stage.
1:03:22
But then I realize I have as much influence as someone on stage.
1:03:25
It just looks very different.
1:03:26
I have people asking me to baptize them or to come to their wedding.
1:03:29
I've, I've officiated now six weddings and some of them for guys in the parking team
1:03:33
are just like, Hey, and one of them was we confronted them.
1:03:35
They were living together.
1:03:36
Like, listen, you can serve in the parking team or you can live together, but you can't
1:03:39
do both.
1:03:40
And like, all right, then we'll get married.
1:03:41
And they got married in five weeks and, and we had a parking team wedding.
1:03:44
So there is a, there is a place for that for discipleship and we lean into how Jesus is
1:03:49
wired us.
1:03:50
Why wouldn't beautiful things happen?
1:03:52
That's, he's the God of diversity.
1:03:54
One of the things I keep telling people I'm a creationist is one of the things that pragmatism
1:03:59
and survival of fittest and chance does not need is beauty and diversity.
1:04:04
It doesn't need all those things.
1:04:05
Only the strongest need to survive.
1:04:07
Only the utilitarian needs to survive, not the beautiful.
1:04:11
And I follow all these different Instagram accounts with beautiful birds.
1:04:13
I've gone to all these places around the world and go, everything is so diverse.
1:04:16
It doesn't have to be.
1:04:17
It's the same in the kingdom, right?
1:04:19
Jesus wants all different kinds of people with different backgrounds, different interests,
1:04:25
right?
1:04:26
There's people, I've been taking people in my church on adventures for years.
1:04:29
And nobody else is doing that, right?
1:04:30
Like in other churches, like there's nobody asking you to go skydiving at most churches,
1:04:35
right?
1:04:36
There's nobody asking you to go UTV through the desert of Utah and most churches, right?
1:04:39
But I've been able to have huge conversations with people and I've seen guys who don't
1:04:43
share at church crying in an airport as we lay hands on them, right?
1:04:47
Because he relinquishes something from his life or unbears his heart.
1:04:51
That only happens because we embrace the diversity of a sovereign God.
1:04:54
Well, man, I really appreciate the time that you spent on the book, but also sending it
1:04:58
out to me the time that you spent with me today.
1:04:59
But that's all for me.
1:05:00
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:05:02
No, man.
1:05:03
It's easy to follow me on Instagram.
1:05:05
It's @ryplane, R-Y-P-L-A-N-E.
1:05:07
And you'll see links to all the things I blog about this stuff.
1:05:10
If you want to see all the adventures, they're all there.
1:05:12
I hope all the adventures point you to an adventures God.
1:05:15
All right, Ryan, George, thank you for coming on Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
1:05:18
Yeah, good to be here.
1:05:20
There you go, guys.
1:05:21
Hope you enjoyed my time with Ryan George.
1:05:22
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick zillions boost.
1:05:25
Add Undaunted Life, our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with the content
1:05:27
that forge a spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:05:30
So the link I've got for you today is linked to his book scared to life tales of a good
1:05:33
God who reveals his heart when ours is racing.
1:05:36
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1:05:37
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1:05:39
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1:05:46
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1:05:48
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1:05:56
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1:06:00
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1:06:01
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re-recording of their album leveler.
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The links are in the description.
1:06:07
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
1:06:09
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual mental and physical resilience
1:06:15
to keep seeking the Lion of Judah.
1:06:45
[MUSIC]