This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys. We've got a special return guest on the podcast today. His name is Raymond Ibrahim. He is an author, translator, columnist, and vocal critic of Islam. He's also an expert in Islamic history and doctrine. He was actually born in the United States to Coptic immigrants from Egypt. He is fluent in both English and Arabic, and he did his master's thesis under Victor Davis Hansen, who's also been on the show, and he's now at the Hoover Institution. So, he's the author of a tremendous trilogy of books that I suggest everybody pick up and read. The first one is Sword and Scimitar, 14 centuries of war between Islam and the West. Defenders of the West, the Christian heroes who stood against Islam. We talked about that on episode 572 of this podcast. And then his newest book, which is what we talk about today, which is called The Two Swords of Christ, Five Centuries of War between Islam and the Warrior Monks of Christendom. And so on this podcast today, you know, we talk about the fact that he is a very, very vocal and outspoken critic of Islam. But not just critic. He provides the historical receipts that most of the people that say they understand Islam or are becoming an apologist for Islam, they either don't know the history, they're ignorant of it, or they are purposefully in an evil way propagating a false narrative so that Islam can be more effective across the globe. But we started out by talking about Muslims in Africa. So Nigeria and Sudan and Mosamb beek and how they're targeting Christians and how that's just kind of part for the course for Islam. And also we talked about the fact is as a society we treat Christianity like it's Islam and we treat Islam like it's Christianity. Like you have these people that you're thinking oh we live in this Handmaid's Tale type setting even though they live in a Christian country, a Christian majority country and they wouldn't really like it if they had to live in a Muslim country and do what the women have to do over there. But then we get into the new book the two swords of Christ the five centuries of war between Islam and the warrior monks of Christendom. We talk about this idea that, you know, just war theory is just and why it's just and even specifically how pacifistic Christians are really losing the thread even on Jesus's words. And we go into some scripture to talk about that because, you know, I called it, you know, a pussified version of Christianity. He called it doormat Christianity and how that's really dangerous. He gave a very well uh needed overview of the Crusades because again, when people hear the Crusades, they think of it like one war at one time period in one place. But it we it took place over centuries and centuries. There were a bunch of different crusades and a bunch of different people involved. We talk about the the Templar Knights. We talk about the hospitalers. And then we even talk about uh we there was one great story at the end of one specific crusade or one specific Templar knight. But then also we talked about how Islam uses slavery because people get this really ahistorical idea that slavery only happened in America somehow. that the Atlantic slave trade they only brought people from Africa to here and that you know that there were no other people involved but the Islamic slave trade even that continues to this day was way more pernitious and way more vast and included them enslaving white Europeans and how that's basically kind of memory hold for a lot of people and then we talk uh toward the end again there's this great story of this one single Templar knight that went up against a thousand Islamic fighters it was just absolutely incredible but then we also talked about how there's a bit of a misdirection that's happening with Muslims in the modern day, saying, "Oh, hey, you know, I'm fine. I'm here. I'm just, you know, I'll, you know, I'll be a Muslim over here, but I'll be quiet about it." And all that, but how that's actually a tactic that Muhammad told Muslims to use in order to lead to a future conquest of those Christians places, right? And so, it's a very, very interesting conversation. I wish I had more time with him, but he's on an incredibly tight schedule. But guys, without further ado, let's get into it. Raymond Ibrahim, welcome back to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast. Hi Kyle, good to be with you again. >> I'm always excited to talk to you, but then we kind of get into some dow subjects and this is going to, you know, not be an exception whatsoever because I do want to talk about your newest book, which is absolutely spectacular. So, I'm chomping at the bit here, but most of your public work, at least from where I've been sitting, is about Islam, but not just about, you know, studying it, trying to understand the five pillars better, and, you know, becoming an apologist for that worldview. It's more of an expository uh job that you're doing. You're trying to expose the world to exactly what is going on within Islam and what they actually mean versus what they say publicly or what their PR firms do for them. And even as we sit here right now, Raymond, there are people that are being targeted in Nigeria and Sudan and Mosamb beek. There are Christians that are being beheaded, raped, burned alive, all kinds of different things by Muslims simply because they are Muslims. simply because the other people are Christians. And then we have a bunch of people trying to explain that away. And so I guess let's talk a little bit about what seems to be, you know, a lot of your life's work and into what we're even seeing in modern day. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, I got into this entire field mostly looking at Islam specifically from an academic point of view back in my early days in college. Um, and a lot of it has to do with my own ethnic background being my family's from Egypt. were Coptic Christians which is the indigenous inhabitants. So obviously even for my youth I had an interest in how Islam and Christianity interacts. Um, and yeah, that's uh been my is my my my point as you as you were articulating it pretty well has been just to really try to be as objective as possible and show what Islam's really all about because the current narrative the way it's been presented by really all channels from the academic world to media to Hollywood has presented a very uh whitewashed is putting it mildly version of Islam. Okay. And um so and as someone who has been immersed in the study of Islamic history and Islamic doctrine and who's been exposed to original language sources of course um that's just not the truth what I've seen what has been presented. So much of my life's work as you put it has been to really offer correctives uh just as objective as possible and people think that I'm uh you know intentionally trying to demonize Islam. I'm actually just presenting the truth the way it was. Um, and people think that because what they're used to seeing is a completely rosy picture. So when someone like me presents something very different, they think I'm, you know, just I'm being mean. I'm I'm pulling I'm I'm demonizing it in a word. Um, but like I said, no, I'm just trying to be as objective as possible. >> Well, Islam doesn't need anyone to demonize it for Islam because de, you know, it demonizes itself essentially. And so I I've even heard this quote here recently. I I can't remember who to attribute to, but it's society at large. They essentially treat Christianity like it's Islam. They treat Islam like it's Christianity. And I even look at now we have a lot of young liberal women of course unmarried that are kind of like Islamic adjacent or they're they're at least soft towards Islam. And so they want to they want to berate conservatives about this supposed Handmaid's Tale society that they live in. But it's like oh I'm sorry you're not wearing a burka right now. You actually have rights in this country and yet you're being soft towards Islam. I mean, can you aside from demonic activity, I don't know that I can provide an apologetic for that, Raymond? >> Yeah, and that's not a bad interpretation, but um that's really the point. It's bad enough that much of Christian history has been suppressed and demonized and Islamic history the opposite. And it's but it now has gotten to the point because of that that it's it's not just ignorance, it's actual topsyturvy logic. So the the religion and the civilization that has historically been to use your example oppressive of women until the present and that's the ironic part it still is and people see it with their eyes uh that's still presented like this somehow you know gentlemanly I suppose or that's favorable towards women whereas Christianity which is the number one civilization that actually promoted monogamy and respect for women is now supposedly seen as the evil misogynistic religion and so that's the dangers of fake history that I've been tackling for decades. >> Well, and that's one of the reasons why I love to have you on the show is because your work I I've dug so far into your work and the the amount of first person sources and as you say original language sources is substantial and that's certainly true of the new book. The new book guys is the two swords of Christ's great name. Five centuries of war between Islam and the warrior monks of Christendom. And so this is actually the third book in a trilogy a fantastic book. So, you had Sword and Scimitar, which I think was 2018. You have Defenders of the West, which was your first appearance on this show, and then now this one that has just come out. I want to read a a quote. Uh, I think it's a very important quote from your author's note. It really sets the tone for the book, and then we'll get into it from there. So, here's the quote. While many modern Christians believe their faith begins and ends with being passive and non-confrontational, turning the other cheek, never judging, and being tolerant of everything, including unadulterated evil. These men took into account the tried uh and tried to act on all of Christ's words. Take Jesus's talk of swords. He tells his disciples that he hath no sword. Let him sell his garment and buy one. They respond, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." To which Christ conceded or concludes, "It is enough." We see that in Luke 22. Whereas most modern-day Christians allegorize the this verse into meaninglessness, for most preodern and especially medieval Christians, its meaning was clear. Christians are to fight two swords of evil with two sorts of swords. A spiritual sword against spiritual enemies and a physical sword against physical enemies. Taken together, these two swords were and are enough. And so, Raymond, I mean, what a powerful way to start this because, you know, when you look at the cover and you're kind of reading the thing, you're like, "All right, this is going to be kind of a history, maybe some crusadish type stuff and maybe some cool stories of valor." No, this sets the tone and this is a major sticking point for a lot of the men in our audience. I got a text this morning. A guy said something in a in a church group text that was a little abrasive, a little aggressive, and one of the other guys was like, "Hey, man, let's settle down. Let's cool a little And it's just like we've gotten to such a pussified version of Christianity and modernity that would be completely unrecognizable to a Templar knight or to a hospitaler or a crusader or something like that. So, but to start generically and then we'll dig in, why this book? Why now? Why you? Well, this book uh actually I I wrote it sort of like what you were alluding to on the one hand because I'm interested in history and I'm interested in that nexus between Islam and Christendom, but also to actually show modern day Christians what how earlier Christians really thought and how completely different it is from modern day Christianity. And the problem is what we're, you know, I I've coined it years ago, what I, what you're describing, this phenomenon, you know, of the pussification, as you put it, um, I call it doormat Christianity, which is is so diffused, so widespread, and so taken for granted by your average Christian that this is the, you know, the meaning of the gospel, which is basically as as that quote that you read. Um, you know, you just everything about Christianity is just turning the other cheek to tolerating quote unquote anything and everything, no matter how evil. Patting yourself on the back and then saying, "Look, I'm a good Christian." When you're really actually, you know, enabling evil and being a coward and um never ever ever physically hurting or engaging in physical harm. And that's actually a very important point which I'm hoping to develop at one point in which is that the reason so many modern day Christians think this way is because despite themselves and despite what they say they're materialists. Okay. So which basically means just like a secular or an atheist person they you know they'll say they believe in the afterlife and soul and the spirit etc. But they really cling on to this life and the material as if this is all you got. Um, and so in that context, of course, it makes sense for a Christian to think that if you kill someone, that's the most evil thing possible. But for preodern Christians who actually believed in Christianity and believed in an afterlife and in a soul, the human life was not that important. Life was short, brutal, and nasty, you know, to quote a later author, Hobes and Leviathan, but medieval Christians certainly knew that where everyone was, you know, if you every death was a very common thing. They knew they're going to die. Um so actually fighting back to prevent evil and to protect the innocent even if you kill someone wasn't actually seen and this goes back all the way to Augustine um you know in the context of just war theory so that's why and without this kind of thinking Christianity would have died a long long time ago people don't get that if you if you read as your my other book sword and scimitar defenders of the west and you see the unbridled assault on christendom that went on century after century and that actually in the in the context of Islam swallowed up threequarters of the Christian world. Okay? And if they hadn't I have a quote in one of my books, I think Defenders of the West, of Teddy Roosevelt, who said basically what I'm saying, which is if Christians didn't fight back, there would be no no Christianity. Is that Christ's message? Is that what the doormat Christians think we should do? Keep turning the other cheek until Christianity is completely and utterly snuffed out. Um, so you know, that's so the two swords of Christ. And that's why that well, that's why that title came to me. Um, and it came to me because that's what they talk about. So, the Templars and the Hospitalers and all those medieval Christians. I I have a lot of quotes in there, they often cite that uh Jesus's verse about the two sports. And it's true. Think about how modern day Christians today allegorize it. I mean, what does it mean? It means nothing. Literally, it means nothing to them because on the one hand, Jesus says, "Go sell your garment and buy a sword." Okay? And they say, "Here's two." And he says, "Okay, that's enough." And then now, what what does that mean to a modern day Christian? It means absolutely nothing. It it just uh oh, it's not a real sword. But for other Christians, okay, that makes sense. One sword spiritual warfare, one sword secular warfare, which are both needed to preserve, you know, Christian civilization and to bring on God's kingdom here in the now. Because that's actually how earlier Christians thought of Christianity. It wasn't just I'm going to live my life any which way and oh, I'm saved and then when I die, I go to heaven. It was actually about bringing God's rule now in the now. Um and that's how they thought. So of course you have to have law and order in Jesus himself, you know, to go back to just war theory and I talk a little bit about it. Um it's based on his own actions and words. So it's not forget if you put away the two swords verse, you know, he engaged in violence in the temple. He made a whip. He he got violent. Okay? So Jesus got violent. And when Jesus was one time slapped, he didn't turn the other cheek. He actually challenged the man who slapped him. Okay? And then there's so many other examples when the centurion comes and and Jesus performs a miracle for his um his suffering servant. And usually what Jesus does after he does a miracle for someone is tells him repent. He didn't tell this guy to repent even though he was a centurion in the Roman army which means he has a lot of blood on his hands. Same thing with John the Baptist when soldiers came to him saying what must we do? He didn't say leave the army. He said be content with your wages. Um, so it's unfortunate that they've and I believe this idea, you know, this doormat Christianity, of course, you know, the tolerance and the love and the forgiveness that is part of Christianity, but it's balanced by what I'm talking about. But there's a lot of evil forces that hate Christianity that have promoted this particular idea, have pulled it out of context, and have turned it into Christianity. And you've gotten so many people fall falling for it that it's become taken for granted. And and as I sort of alluded, it doesn't hurt that it's the easy kind of Christianity, too, because it's not easy to stand up. It's not easy to be confrontational. It's not easy to fight back. And it's not easy to, you know, uh sacrifice your life like these men did. Um it's a lot easier to say, "No, no, I'm a good Christian. I'm a doormat. I do nothing. I acquies and I'm passive." And therefore, I pat myself on the back and say, "I'm saved." So, it's all those forces combined. And and we can talk a little bit more. Uh, you know, that's that's the background of why of of the writing this book, but we can get into the actual history now. >> Well, Raymond, I mean, I I remember Jordan Peterson saying this uh several years ago, but it's like, hey, if you're a harmless man, that doesn't make you a good man. It makes you worthless, right? And so, I I debated a a how would he put himself? He's a pacifistic anti-gun Christian advocate. His name is Shane Clayborn. and I just smash him to pieces in this debate because basically what I proved which I didn't have the the words for at the time is there's technically no such thing as a pacifist. There are people that are willing to outsource their violence and people that are unwilling to outsource their violence. So for me, I'm unwilling to outsource my violence, especially to the local magistrates because if they ever turn on me, I don't want to be dependent upon them. Right now I'm all good for calling the cavalry, right? So someone breaks into my house, honey, call the police. Daddy's going to work. Right? And it's just kind of one of those one of those moments where this this idea when you read about the crusaders, the Templars, the hospitalers. It's like I mean gosh, it'll put some lead in your pencil. As I'm reading this book, I'm sitting there like I'm the biggest wuss on the planet, right? I do I even believe in Jesus because I'm reading about what these guys are doing. And so I I think one thing that might be helpful, Raymond, because we're going to get we're going to get into a few stories because we don't have a ton of time. But as talk as as I talk to people about your work and I'm taking a group of guys in jiu-jitsu through sword and scimitar right now when people say the crusades they they think about it like the civil war the world wars like okay it happened in a very truncated period of time in a very small area. They don't realize there were multitudes of them. They watch one bloom film and they think okay that was the crusades right and that didn't even do a good job. But if you could just even give us a highlevel overview of the breadth of the crusades and then we'll get into I guess a highle overview of the Templars and the hospitalers because that we really got to set the stage for what we're even talking about here. >> Sure. So the best way to start off with the crusades is the way that nobody does which is by giving context. Usually people just started at 1095 Pope Urban calls for the first crusade and you know and and it's because it's a power play. I've often quoted John Espazito, a professor at uh Georgetown University, and that's how he presents it. And he says, "Literally five centuries of peace between Muslims and Christians went by until 1095 when Pope Corbin." So the the quick summary and background is that um when Muhammad dies in 632 one century later in 732 his followers the Muslims had conquered you know the it could be at that point 2/3 or closer to 3/arters of the Christian world which again people are unaware was mostly centered in what we today call the Middle East. It was in North Africa from Morocco to Egypt and it was in in the Middle East, greater Syria and all the nations in that region and also of course Asia Minor what we call Turkey. That was the the heart of the Christian world. Um people think Christianity is Europe. Okay, you had five centers, five major seas. Only one was in Europe, Rome. The other four, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem and Constantinople were in the east and all got conquered and swallowed up by Islam. Okay. Um so that one century between Muhammad's between 632 and 732 I picked that year because that's a battle of tours. And so at that point Islam had conquered that entire area and is now in the middle of France uh engaging in jihad essentially and that's what the sources describe and this goes on and then another newer iteration comes on right before the Crusades and it's what prompts the Crusades. Sorry about the cat. >> No, we'll leave it in. We got a couple of cats playing defense right now. There you go. >> Yeah, I'm I'm kind of used to it by now, but um >> all good. >> So, right before the first crusade in 1095, um you have the Turks, the rise of the Turks, especially in the guise of the Seljic Turks, and now they are running causing havoc in the Holy Land especially and in Asia Minor that this is this is the process of turning Christian Asia Minor, which is you know figures prominently in the New Testament as as one of the oldest and earliest Christian regions. This is the process of turning it into Turkey. Okay. Um right before the crusade. So you the sources are talking about massacres of tens of thousands of Christians, Armenians Georgians Greeks uh Syrians, Assyriak peoples and um also assaults on pilgrims from Europe who are going to the Holy Land. They're being raped and killed and everything. And that is what gave rise to the first crusade. Okay. uh the battle of Manzuker, one of the major battles where really opened the way for the Turks to start colonizing Asia Minor was in 1071. And between that year and 1095, matters just kept getting worse and worse. And then the the Eastern Roman Empire, Emperor um Alexius called on for help from the West. And when you actually look at what Pope Urban said, he's describing nothing but atrocities being committed against Christians, churches being destroyed and plundered. um you know in Armenia thousands of churches it's what it's the oldest Christian nation were actually ritually desecrated and torched. Okay, so this is the backdrop and this is what gives rise to the first crusade which happens in 1095 and Christians in Europe are riled by learning what's happening to their eastern brethren and what's happening to the holy supplr the most important church in Christendom which is built above uh or was built above the sites of Christ's burial resurrection etc. And so the first crusade is born and it's a mass movement and uh you know they you know long story short it is successful. It does achieve its um objective liberating Jerusalem. And then after that you know the the problem with the crusades which people don't seem to understand and a lot of people like to you know say oh the Muslims you know kicked their butt because the Christians were weak. It it because it was it was a religious thing. It was ideological. It wasn't conquest. It was about actually getting a particular piece of land, the holy land. So what that meant is they the crusaders were always isolated and surrounded in a sea of Islam. Okay? Muslims didn't do that. What Muslims did is they actually would conquer peace meal whatever is adjacent to them and they always had their full full force and reserves and supplies right there because it's their land on on their land. They're on the frontier. They conquer it, they annex, they consolidate, they move on to the next spot. So they always have their entire reserve body of force right there. Whereas the crusaders were just like plucked out and thrown into a sea of Islam. And that's really the story of the Crusades. It's vastly outnumbered forces constantly being belleaguered and attacked by hordes essentially. And so the so so you the the numbers of the crusades is second, the third, etc. And they go on usually till 9 is the numbers that they give are just um you know reiterations. Uh something especially horrific happens in the holy land to the Christians and there's another call and Christians go but in between these formal numbers that historians give them. The crusade was a constant in other words pilgrims which is how they saw themselves armed pilgrims were constantly leaving Europe and going to pilgrimage and help fight and defend and keep the holy land. So it always goes on and but anyway it essentially again I'm giving you the basic historical summation it in 1291 that's the end of it because that's the the final stronghold this the siege of Aker and uh the the crusaders are kicked out by the Mluks from Egypt and that's uh that's technically the end of their you know major presence in the Holy Land but they but still they try again especially the Templars and the hospitalers and you know it's it's still in their mind for centuries for for Christians all throughout Europe that they want to Christopher Columbus centuries later, right? In 1492, everyone knows he, you know, sailed looking for spices. They tell us actually if you dig into sources, this was part of the holy war. It was a crusade against Islam. It was the same thing. There was a reason it was Ferdinand Isabella that commissioned him because they were hardcore crusaders in the reconista of Spain. And one of their major uh the east was completely flooded by Islam. You can't travel without being slaughtered or enslaved instantaneously. So they wanted to actually go around circumvent Islam whether it was the Ottomans or the Mlukes in in order to actually find aid there was this there were all these theories pressed for John you know some supposed great king living somewhere in the east they would go and ally with and then try to attack and crush Islam in between them and re get regain Jerusalem. So my point is this was a constant for many many centuries. Uh but it did end more or less according to the historical narrative in 1291. >> Hey guys, real quick. 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Well, let's go and talk a little bit. You brought up slavery there as well. Another one of the things that's kind of memory hold to history is is apparently people think that only child slavery in America is that's the only uh slavery that ever occurred, right? But in the book, you do take a little diet tribe and talk about that a little bit to where it's like, okay, the European transatlantic slave uh slaving was, you know, that was cold business is how you talked about it. But Muslims would enslave Europeans, white Europeans, and it was fueled by their hate for them as infidels, right? And and also this this ignores the fact that most of the Africans that were put into the African uh the transatlantic slave trade were captured by other Africans, right? So, you know, when you talk about reparations and things like that, it's like, okay, if we go back to the source, it's like, are you a descendant of an African slaver? Are you the descendant of an African slave? I don't think we want to open up that can of worms. But you do talk about in this book that there were just so for every one Muslim that was enslaved, uh, there were so many multitudes of Christians that were enslaved by Muslims. But again, you don't hear about that in your world history courses in college or high school. that's never brought up in any of these de debates on reparations or or slavery or racism or any of those types of things. But slavery is like the lifeblood of of Islam in terms of how they control the infidel and how they basically that's another form of warfare for them. >> Yeah. Slavery is just part and parcel of Islam. is the only reason it it's not being practiced in the Islamic world openly is because it was banned by those evil Christian Europeans who actually uh on the one hand of course they did um participate in slavery as you just described because everyone did and everyone enslaved everyone whites enslaved whites, whites enslaved blacks, blacks enslaved blacks and blacks enslaved whites and everyone in between. So it was just that's the way it was. Um, but at least to their credit, Christians in Europe, primarily in England, are the ones who spearheaded the abolition of slavery around the world. Even though as of today, there's something like 40 million slaves, most of them in Africa and in Asia. Um, so you know, slavery is back, but it's primarily underground. Um, but it is definitely part of Islam. It's part of it's it's part it's in the Quran. And if it's in the Quran as a legitimate thing, you know, and people complain. But the New Testament, well, all the New Testament does is tell it's a stoic message. It's basically if you are a slave, be content, live your life, you know, don't, you know, >> well, and most of the words, most of the time slavery is discussed in the New Testament. The word is dul loss, which is bondervant, which would be someone that was voluntarily giving their life and their years to somebody, usually to pay off a debt or because they couldn't care for themselves. This wasn't one tribe in Africa going into another village, stealing all the people and killing uh most of the men that were actually going to fight back and then putting them in chains and putting them in cages next to the beaches so that the Europeans could come and easily pick them up. This was like a a super macob form of Uber Eats that was happening back in the day. You know what I mean? And so it's like it's just it's just a generalized ignorance of the entire process. Oh, it was it was in in in in West Africa that was a major industry and a lot of the Africans who would enslave other Africans were devastated once slavery was abolished and they and and they became totally impoverished because that was their lifeblood was actually enslaving fellow Africans and enslaving them and selling them. So yeah, this is uh and this you know this topic you bring up of slavery is a perfect example which I discuss often in general of fake history and how it's being weaponized and used to demoralize you know demonize and um and just essentially destroy western civilization by by convincing it that its ancestors and its ways which were good um were evil. So now you have to be the opposite and this and this goes back to the doormat Christianity. If it's always if if western civilization in history had been is so bad, especially the Crusades, then you need to be the exact opposite. Okay? And um so for example, I often point this out in Germany in in the year 1999 uh which marked the uh thousand-year anniversary of the recapture of Jerusalem at the hands of the crusaders. I know a mass pilgrimage of Christians took off and they were all wearing shirts that said in Arabic, "I'm sorry." Okay? because they're apologizing for those evil crusaders who dared go and fight and reclaim Christian territory so that Muslims don't rape, slaughter, and kill Christians. Okay, that's uh so that's because of this weaponization of fake history and convincing Western people and especially Christians that their predecessors were the embodiment of evil and you must be the antithesis. That's why you see so much of what you see. >> Well, that's a new shirt idea for Undaunted Life. We'll do sorry, not sorry, but in Arabic and then uh so we'll see how that one sells. But one of the things we've talked about the different forms of warfare and the different ways that that Muslims and again guys you got to go get a copy of the two swords of Christ cuz I mean you you get into such good detail about the importance of Constantinople and roads and and aker and Malta and all these different places that really really play into all this. But one of the other warfare tactics that is used by Muslims is misdirection. So I'll use a quot a a short quote from the book here. In short, generation after generation of Muslims pretended to be and lived as model Christians in Spain even as they had nothing but hatred for Christians all to remain and eventually reconquer Spain for Islam. Okay. So when you go to the teachings from either the Quran or the Hadith, you would see that Muhammad would basically say like, yeah, lie to your captives, lie to the people that are around you and just lie and wait, right? even let them take a bite out of you, but just lie and wait until the time comes. And I, as I was reading your quote, I was thinking about America. I was thinking about the West large. So, think of Europe, Canada, uh, the United States. And how we've kind of tutted Islam again. We treat it like it's, you know, Christianity even though it's not. And, you know, we kind of treat it as as opposites or whatever. And people are like, "Well, look, the only people that I know that are Muslim, they're all peaceful." It's like, okay, not all Muslims are violent, but Islam is inherently violent. And do you know that that person isn't just following the dictates of Muhammad from the Hadith or the Quran to the letter, which is basically like, hey, lie and wait until the moment to expel the infidel comes. And so that's what I'm I'm worried about a lot of people in my audience, the the rise of mosques all over the United States. Entire cities in the United States being taken over like Dearbornne, Michigan. You have an Islamist, not just a Muslim, but an Islamist Muslim communist, now the mayor elect of New York City. So, what's your read of all this in terms of how we're treating Islam in the West, especially in light of how Muslims have acted in these different places for hundreds of years? >> Yeah. I mean this is the the answer is a culmination of everything we've been talking about which is this is the complacency of the west because it's been so browbeaten demoralized and it's convinced you know the only virtuous act is no act other than acquiescence and and being a doormat and anything else is evil well that's why uh you know different hostile foreign civilizational groups are taking over right beneath their nose you know it's I often marvel at the fact that when you look at you know European or to be blunt. White civilization, white people are such a tiny minority, okay, of in the world. And and depending on the numbers you look at, I've seen it from something like five and 6% to maybe 9%. And yet that is the only civilization that is being told left and right and bombarded with a message that you need to suppress your culture. You need to suppress your civilization. You need to suppress your religion and you need to welcome everyone into your lands and basically uh you know move away. So everyone who used to live in California now goes to Idaho or something like that. Okay, it's a constant retreat. Or look at what's happening in Europe, places like in the UK and Scandinavia and in general. So the unfortunate thing is all those white people, they still see their all they think of is their own country, which they're still the majority in. But actually in the context of the world, you're a tiny drop. And uh those people, okay, they're not being told that message. They believe that their civilization, their religion and not just Muslims, okay, just people in general is superior in their language and everything. They would never let you come into their country and take over. So you have this really perverse situation where 90% of the world which is very uh h you know confident in its ways and would never ever think about letting a minority come into its country and change its country. They're being allowed to come into the tiny minority, the West, and the Westerners are being told they have to, you know, do everything to accommodate. So that's how perverse this situation is and suicidal. And people just don't get it because again, they're living in a bubble. They're living in a in a fake construct. Their perception is totally false. It's based on the media. It's based on Hollywood. Um, and so yeah, it's uh it's, you know, the concept that you're referring to, tea and Islam and and the deception and all that. Yeah, that's just part of the religion and Muhammad himself did preach it. Okay, which is basically b your time and uh I often tell this anecdote when I worked at the Library of Congress. I I knew a Muslim and we were on friendly terms and he was a serious Muslim and we would debate and talk and um I would point out to him the fact that because it's in the Quran itself, the Quran itself is understood as having two phases. One is when Muhammad is weak and that's when he preached actual tolerant verses. So the the Muslim apologists when they quote verses like you have your religion I have mine there's no compulsion in religion that's from Muhammad's weak uh weak phase which is called the Mecca phase and then he goes to Medina and becomes essentially a warlord and that's when he gets the violent verses which is you know kill and slaughter them wherever you can find them etc etc. So, I was pointing that out to him and uh you know, and he kept saying, "No, no, Islam is moderate. It's peaceful and but he finally, you know, dropped the veil and showed that he knew what was going on because he finally threw his hands up and said, "Well, what do you want from me? I'm living in Mecca." So, his point being, >> I'm in the Meccan phase where I have to, you know, I'm outnumbered. I have to be talking about Islam as peaceful. And the the inverse of that is, well, once uh Muslims are strong enough, then it goes to the more violent phase. So yeah, lot lots of unfortunate ignorance. And the worst part of all though is it's all by design. None of this is organic. This is completely intentional by those people who do control the media, who do control Hollywood, who do control the powers that be. This is an intentional message. Even the people who are who are behind these false heretical Christianities which are all about being a doormat again. You know what? What's What better way to disarm and weaken a Christian than by telling him, "Hey, your religion is about doing nothing except whatever and letting me do whatever I want and then you you're a good Christian." Well, of course, that's the most prominent kind of Christianity and it's being funded probably by non-Christians all around the world because that's the best way to get Christians to think to actually enable your own agenda. >> When it's mind-blowing to people that, you know, you'll you'll watch a Muslim like on a college campus or something like that, you have these man on the street things. They'll be like, "Oh, Islam means peace." It's like, no, it means submission. And then they will quote some of those uh Mechan verses, right? Some of the the more peaceful verses. But it's like, okay, let's go to the least abregated text in the entirety of the Quran. Basically, here's kind of my last salvo to humanity and to my to my brethren. It's Surah 9, which is the bloodiest probably of all the suras. And so, it's like, okay, if that's the game that we want to play, let's go to the source material. Now, there are so many good stories in this book, Raymond, but we we are on short time, but there is one story that I want you to tell us, and unfortunately, I'm guaranteed to not pronounce this guy's name correctly, but it's Jacqueline Deley, Jacqueline Demali, something like that. So, so if you could just tell our audience. >> Yeah, if you could tell us that story, it's incredible. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a great story. And um it's basically so one of the verses that really biblical verses cuz remember these military orders the nights of the temple and the hospital they didn't pull this out of you know unlike what the Christian modern day Christian charges like those weren't real Christians they were engaged in violence. No they actually read and studied the Bible and they believed in the Old Testament as well which is as militant as it gets. So in Deuteronomy, there's a verse that talks about how if God wills it, one man can stand against a thousand and two can put 10,000 to flight. And the idea is that, you know, it's not about numbers. And this is actually why so many crusaders would go and throw themselves into that sea of Islam because they had faith that it's not about numbers. If if I'm doing if God's on my side, then we can win. So that verse was really taken to heart and it was often quoted in their documents and their charters the Templars and the hospitalers. I have a lot of I talk a lot about it in the book. St. Bernard was a chief proponent of it and um so there was a a major battle that went on and the crusader and the crusaders were completely outnumbered. It was typical and um they got crushed and they were killed. I think it's the battle of Croissant. Um and one night you know he could have he could have um surrendered. He could have run away. Some did. One night's Templar. That is uh this this battle featured a small group of I think it was like 300 and uh but maybe a hundred of them were Templar knights. Okay. And 200 were what were would be called secular knights. They were all killed. But there was one man left standing who you just mentioned, Jacqueline of Malay. And uh and and and he's described in the chronicers as being motivated by that one verse. And even the Muslims were so amazed by him that they started according to the source affectionately telling him just surrender because they were impressed by his prowess. And um there's actually I I included a picture of it. Well, here's the book by the way. >> A great painting. Yeah, it's a great painting. >> Here's a book and I'll just show you a picture because it was this is one of those heroic things that was once upon a time known but now isn't for some odd reason. Um, instead Hollywood gives us fake nonsense when even when we actually had uh, you know, there was reason to be impressed by the real thing. So, I don't know if you can see it. There's uh, do you see that? >> Yep. Absolutely. >> So, that's him basically surrounded by, you know, hordes of Muslims and he wouldn't surrender and he was riddled with arrows. his horse was riddled with arrows and um then he finally died and he was celebrated as a martyr uh you know by his comrades by by historians because you know why is he a martyr because he's actually fighting for the faith he's fighting in defense of Christianity he's fighting in defense of Christ and his followers okay so that was actually that's why crusaders thought of um crusaders who march and die as martyrs because think about it they would actually also quote the verse where Christ says no greater love does man have than does he have than laying his own life for his fellow men as Christ did. Of course, Christ did it in a grand cosmic sense, but these guys also did it in their own humble way by trying to defend and literally selling their lives to protect the lives of others. >> Well, Raymond, it's a tremendous trilogy, Sword and Scimitar, Defenders of the West, and the Two Swords of Christ. But you know how it goes. You binge watch an entire season of a show, and it took you the weekend, and it took them three years to make it and edit it. But it's all, "What have you done for me lately? What are you working on next? So, is there a fourth book in the series? Are we taking a hard left turn in our work? What's next for you? >> No, no. I'm uh what I'm I'm currently in my little break time deciding what's next. But there's definitely be many many more more books, God willing, and they're going to this theme that I've been addressing um especially not just Islam and Christianity, but more uh you know, res re reclaiming sort of masculinity and Christianity and the defense spirit and so forth. That's pro my next book will probably be dealing with that uh you know the concept of just war fury in I mean I've talked about these before but a real deep dive into how to reclaim what was once there and is now lost. >> Well Raymond you're always going to have an audience with my audience. But that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> No. The book comes out uh pretty soon. Uh anyone you should try to get it. I think you'll like it. It's uh for the record, all my other books, and this is an oddity that I only found out, but three of my last books are 352 pages each exactly, which I never planned, but this one is 512. So, and this book, just for the record, because in my other books, I touch on the Crusades. Some chapters deal with the Crusades. This book is is the one that most deals entirely with the Crusades because the Templars and the Hospitalers were the backbone of the Crusades. So there was no getting around covering virtually every crusade in detail because there were that's the only way to talk about them. >> Very good. Well Raymond, thanks again for coming on. >> Thanks Kyle. Appreciate it. >> There you go guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Raymond Ibrahim. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Adam Daunted Life Mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. And in the links to the show notes here or in the show notes, we've got three links for you. So it's the links to the books that we talked about on this podcast. Sword and Scimitar, Defenders of the West, and the new book, The Two Swords of Christ. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, or shoot me an email to info@undantton.life. That's info@undantton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. And check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.