NATE MARQUARDT | From the Cage to the Cross (Ep. 493)

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0:50 This is on Daunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into

0:55 it. All right, guys. Dave, we've got a special guest on the podcast. His name is Nate,

0:59 the great Mark Hoard. So he is an MMA fighter. He formerly was a middleweight and welterweight

1:04 fighter in the UFC. And he's also the former strike force welterweight champion and three

1:08 time hand crates middleweight champion. So this is a guy that he kind of bridged the

1:11 gap between being one of the original guys that started in the 90s. You know, where

1:15 he had to fight multiple times in one night through, you know, to the specialization arrow.

1:19 You know, as you get into the UFC strike force, some of those organizations where you're fighting

1:23 maybe two or three times a year. And so we talk about all that in this episode. So we

1:27 get into the Xs and O's of what early MMA was like compared to today, some of his biggest

1:31 losses, biggest wins. So obviously he won the title against Tyrum Woodley and strike force,

1:36 lost the title fight against Anderson Silva in the UFC, considered by many to be the greatest

1:40 middleweight fighter of all time, even though he's popped several times. But anyway, that's

1:43 not what we talked about today. So we did talk about a lot of kind of the Xs and O's

1:46 and stuff of MMA. And that's all really interesting. But the biggest dominating thing about Nate's

1:51 life is the fact that he's a Christian, he's a Christ follower. And he became a Christ follower

1:55 while he was still fighting. And so you kind of have that inner dissonance that that conundrum

1:59 to where it's like, wait, can I punch people in the face and Sylvia Christian? And I really

2:02 liked his answer to that. But in this interview, today, again, we do talk about the MMA stuff,

2:06 but then we talk a lot about how he didn't just become a Christian, but he took Christianity

2:10 so seriously that he went to seminary. You know, he's selling his house and moving to basically

2:15 go be a missionary and instead of Christian schools. And a lot of very, very interesting

2:19 things. This is a guy that takes his faith and takes study of the scripture and being

2:22 a disciple of Christ very seriously. So there's a lot that you can get out of our interview

2:26 today. So I'm not going to keep him from you any longer. So without further ado, let's

2:29 get into it.

2:30 Name Mark court. Welcome to a Dante life of man's podcast. Thanks for having me, Kyle.

2:36 I'm happy to have you. We got connected about a month back or so. So I'm glad that we kind

2:40 of finally made it to this conversation. I just told you this off air. I didn't really

2:44 know exactly what to do with your interview, because normally I have like a really good

2:48 plan laid out, like, okay, we're going to talk about this and we're going to talk about

2:50 this. But you have two kind of enormous parts of your life that are linked, but also separate

2:56 and that's obviously your MMA career, but also who you are as a Christian today. But

3:02 you did say something off air that makes sense in terms of chronology, it probably would make

3:06 sense to start with the fighting stuff and kind of get into, you know, some of the stuff

3:10 you're doing now with, you know, Bible study and theology training and your future with

3:15 ministry and things like that. So I talked about that in the intro, obviously guys, you

3:18 need to stick around for that. But as dumb as the question as it sounds, like I'm just

3:23 curious how you specifically got into MMA, because my understanding is, is you got in

3:28 in the nineties, like the late nineties is when you got into mixed martial arts. Now

3:32 you had been training martial arts, you know, before that time, obviously, but let's just

3:37 talk about why did you decide to get into it? Because it's not like it is today where,

3:42 you know, you can watch guys on paper view and watch them on, you know, cable news or

3:46 not cable news, but watch them on cable and, you know, guys are little kids are thinking

3:49 I might be a fighter someday, but you didn't really have that in the late nineties. There

3:53 wasn't really like these big organizations. So let's, let's talk about how you got into

3:57 MMA and then we'll, we'll work into the early days.

4:00 Yeah, definitely. I, well, I first heard of the UFC when I was in high school and a couple

4:09 of my buddies had a VHS tape and they loaned it to me. I watched the first three UFCs and

4:16 I loved it. I fell in love. I was always an athlete. I always wanted to do like wrestling

4:22 and boxing and karate and stuff, but I was never able to. And at that point in time, I

4:28 was 16 years old. So I had a job and I had a car and so I just went and found a place

4:34 to train and started training.

4:36 And so I did the same thing as you. There was a local video store in my town called Hastings

4:42 and, you know, you'll see one, two and three. And I'm in like elementary school, I think.

4:45 And my dad and I would watch those and, you know, it's kind of those early days where

4:48 you have like a, you know, a sombre guy versus a boxer and a jujitsu guy versus a sumo fighter.

4:53 Like it was just kind of all these crazy matchups. So I guess, how did you see yourself in that?

5:00 Because like, especially those early UFCs, like it's not, you know, both guys are wearing,

5:05 you know, four ounce gloves and, you know, there's nothing was the same. Like even the

5:09 refereeing, there were really a lot of rules. There was kind of very, very limited rules.

5:13 So what about that was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I've got the skill sets to do that, even

5:18 though I need some training.

5:20 Well, I mean, I guess part of it was that I saw hoist Gracie who, you know, he won the

5:28 first tournaments and he was maybe the smallest or one of the smallest guys of the tournament.

5:34 And I was small in high school. I started, I think as a freshman, I was 99 pounds, less

5:40 than 100 pounds. And I graduated, I think I was 135 as a senior. But basically just

5:50 seeing that you could, there was a sport out there where you could compete against anyone.

5:56 And it didn't matter how big you were. And it was, you know, so much, but it was based

6:01 on technique. And so yeah, when I, when I first saw it, I immediately, I was like, that's

6:07 what I want to do. And I knew I wanted to become become a champion.

6:11 Okay. So let's talk about the early days. So again, we kind of have to go back to realizing,

6:17 you know, the UFC is 30 years old, but at the time it's, you know, people don't really

6:22 know how did you get fights? How did you go about training? Because you hear these stories

6:26 about, you know, you know, Randy Couture and Chelsea and all the guys at that gym, you

6:31 know, they would just go in and fight every day. They, you know, they would just hit the

6:34 timer or put their big gloves on and just fight. Whereas now you'll have guys like Max Holloway,

6:39 one of the best fighters on the planet. He doesn't even spar according to him in between

6:42 fights. He doesn't spar. He just trains because he's wanting to protect himself. And there's

6:46 all the scientific stuff around weight cutting. So let's talk about those early days. Like,

6:50 you know, when did you decide, no, I'm going to actually lock myself on a cage with another

6:54 human being and fight them. How did that get booked? What were the rules? Take me through

6:57 that.

6:58 Yeah. Well, so you're, you're right. And in the beginning, it was so on, there was not

7:04 structure to the training to the fight, fight organizations, nothing. So I just started

7:12 training and like, I feel like I was kind of pushed into every step of the way. So in

7:18 other words, when I start, I started fighting. I actually, my first fight, I was pushed into

7:27 it. It was a gym fight. And one of my guys I trained with, first I trained at a jujitsu

7:35 school that also taught karate. And so kind of from the beginning, I knew I wanted to be

7:41 able to fight on my feet and on the ground. And so this my teammate was going to fight.

7:50 And my instructor just said, Hey, what do you think about doing it with him? And this

7:54 was just, you know, I'd only been training a couple of years. And I was kind of like,

7:58 I don't know if I'm, I don't think I'm ready. And he was like, no, you're ready. And so

8:02 he kind of pushed me into that. And it was a, it was a gym fight. Like we went to another

8:07 gym and we had kind of just guys you would pick from and you'd fight them. And, and so

8:14 that, that got me into it. And then I started fighting locally. And then there was the boss

8:23 root and invitational, which was at the time it was kind of the, the door into the UFC.

8:31 And so I fought that. And I won, I think as boss root and invitational number four, I

8:38 fought and, and basically the guy, John Paredy used to be the matchmaker. And he wasn't there

8:46 that day. He, he, for whatever reason, he didn't make it. But there was somebody there from

8:52 pancreas over in Japan. So they asked me like, Hey, I can manage you and get you fights over

9:00 in Japan. So that, that was kind of the initial road that I took. I fought over in Japan for

9:06 six years. And then from two in 2005, so 99 until 2005, I fought in Japan. And then later

9:15 in 2005, I had my first UFC fight. And actually, how I got in the UFC was kind of funny too,

9:23 because I was training at Jackson's for about a year. And then there was a grappling turn

9:30 amount out in Las Vegas. And my wife saw Dana White. And she's like, why don't you go talk

9:38 to him? And I was kind of like, I don't know. She's like, no, no, go talk to him. You want

9:42 to fight in the UFC? So I went down and just talked to him like, Hey, you know, I want

9:45 to fight in the UFC. And he's like, okay, yeah, how much you wait? And all right. So

9:50 I got the ball rolling. I have so many questions. The first question is, is you graduated high

9:56 school at 135 pounds, but then you're fighting welterweight middleweight. And you look, you

10:01 look like you're over two bills right now. How in the world did you did you just have

10:05 like a late, you know, growth spurt or something like that? Like, because I mean, you weren't

10:10 like short either. Like you were, but you turned in kind of like a really stocky fighter.

10:15 So when did you start to really put on weight? Well, yeah, so there's multiple things. Number

10:20 one, I'm, I'm only 190 pounds right now. I've, I've always kind of looked a little bit bigger

10:24 than I weigh actually skinny waist, skinny legs maybe. And so okay. So that's one thing.

10:34 So I graduated 135. And I remember I'd been lifting weights for like a year or something

10:42 after high school. And I put it put on, you know, 15 pounds or something. And so, so like

10:51 150 basically. And I had my first fight over Japan. And I actually lost my first fight

11:00 over there, but I fought really well and they invited me back for the tournament to to crown

11:05 the first middleweight champion. Now middleweight over there, I think was 181 pounds because

11:11 they would go on kilos. And so I fought the first fight of the tournament was let's, you

11:20 know, it was like in May or something of 90 or a yeah, 2000 sorry, 2000. And so I fought

11:27 that fight and I won. And again, I was outsized by my opponent. He was like, I was probably

11:35 at the point, maybe, maybe 150. And then I fought the next fight was four months later,

11:45 the semifinals and the finals were on the same night. And in that time, first of all,

11:51 I went when I started fighting Japan, I was five foot 11. I grew an inch and just eating

11:59 and getting the rest that I actually needed over there in Japan, basically becoming a

12:04 full time fighter at that point. And I only trained once a day over there, but we trained

12:09 for, you know, a solid two hours. And I just ate all the time. And I gained 15 pounds and

12:16 like, I was just solid muscle in about four months. And so that was kind of the star of

12:22 it. And I, you know, I realized if I'm going to be fighting middleweight, I need to keep

12:26 trying to put the weight on so I'm not always undersized. But really, it's funny because

12:32 people have always said through my career that I was one of the bigger middleweights.

12:36 And that was actually, that was never true. I just never responded because I kind of wanted

12:41 them to think that because I didn't want them to think, Oh yeah, he's actually small. I,

12:47 I usually like a lot of my fights, I didn't cut anyway. Or I cut like four pounds. People

12:53 would see me at the buffet, like the night before we ends and they'd be like, what are

12:57 you doing? They just couldn't believe it.

12:59 Okay. So, so that's really funny to me because weight cutting is obviously a big deal, but

13:04 probably the most extreme example that I can think of is a guy like Joelle Romero to walk

13:09 around looking like Adonis. And whenever he cut to 185, he's fighting a light heavyweight

13:15 now. But when he cut to 185 middleweight, it was like, how you're looking at him on the

13:19 scale and you're like, my eyes can't believe what the scale is telling telling me. And it's

13:24 like, cause he just everything's thick, like thick bones. He has no neck and kind of the

13:28 whole deal. And then you have a guy like Alex Bajeda in the UFC right now that walks around

13:33 at probably 220 to 30 was cutting down to 185. So we would have to start his weight cut.

13:39 Like four weeks ahead of the weigh in. And now he's fighting in 205. And even at 205,

13:44 he fought a 205, you know, a little while back in beat Yom Bajovic. So we weighed in at 205.

13:51 And then he ballooned up to 225 by fight night. So I guess for you, talk me through that a

13:56 little bit because weight cutting is one of the things that if you were in the first few

14:01 years at MMA and you had to predict the future and be like, Hey, at the 30th anniversary of

14:05 the UFC, here's the new stuff that they're going to add. Here's the stuff that they're

14:09 going to take away. And you said, yeah, they're probably going to take away extreme weight

14:12 cutting. That probably would have been at the tippy top of the list of things. It's like,

14:15 okay, they're going to get this figured out. This weight cutting thing is ridiculous. Guys

14:19 are, you know, they look like skeletons on the scale, doesn't help them fight. It dehydrates

14:23 the brain, make some easier to get knocked out. They're more chinny. Talk to me about

14:27 the whole weight cutting thing because I didn't know that about you. I thought you were just

14:30 this enormous guy that sucked all the water out of your body in the last like few hours

14:35 before weigh in. But that wasn't the case. But I guess what are your thoughts on weight

14:39 cutting?

14:40 Well, I think, I think there's definitely you, there's a way to do it that's healthy.

14:49 But there's a way to do it. I think that most guys do that's that's really it really hinders

14:54 their performance, I believe. And like you said, it makes them chinny. I noticed that

14:59 cutting down to 170. I did that for three, three fights. And it was it was definitely

15:06 real. It's like, you could just get flash, knockdown for no reason. It seems like an.

15:17 So I think it's a huto and TJ Jillshaw. When when TJ tried to go down to 25 to fly weight

15:22 to fight, so huto, like he didn't get hit with an enormous shot early in the fight. But

15:28 it was enough to just, I mean, put him down and the fight was over. You know, yeah. And

15:33 yeah, there's nothing you can do about that. So, but I think, I think fighters should try

15:41 to fight closer to their natural weight personally. For sure. Yeah, if you can show up in your

15:48 bigger and stronger and heavier than your opponent without, you know, killing yourself

15:54 and without dehydrating yourself so much that you're going to show up dehydrated, then it's

16:01 not a problem. But but I think as a general rule, I think it's safer and it's going to

16:09 help your longevity if you can fight closer to your natural weight.

16:13 Yeah, I think there's some wisdom in that. I remember Frankie Edgar around the time when

16:18 he fought BJ for the first time, you know, a lot was made that was that lightweight. That

16:22 was at 155 pounds. And so I forget, you know, how long ago that was, it was over 10 years

16:27 ago. But you know, that was a big thing. Oh, he just kind of walks around that weight and

16:31 he was a great 155 pound champion who weighed about 157 pounds. But then now you look at

16:37 guys like Habib or Islam or Michael Chandler Dustin, these are huge human beings cutting

16:45 to 155. So that's why like in the latter stages of Frankie's career, he ended up at 135 at

16:52 Bantamweight because it's like, you know, he just couldn't possibly like, can you imagine

16:57 the Frankie that fought BJ the first time and beat him and took the title fighting Habib

17:03 or Magamet off. Like dude, like there, there'd be like two completely different human beings.

17:08 Now a lot's been said to about the whole weight thing and then we'll move off the weight cutting

17:12 about adding weight classes, because obviously for men, it's 125, 135, 145, 155, then there's

17:19 a jump to 170, which is well to weight, then there's 185 and other jump are, and then there's

17:24 a huge jump to 205 for light heavyweight. And then there's heavyweight with a limit of 265.

17:30 People think heavyweight should have no limit. So a guy like Bob Sapp or someone like that

17:34 should be able to fight, you know, John Jones or something like that. But then it would make

17:38 sense to have a 65, then a 75, then an 85, then a 205 and then just like a super max,

17:46 you know, a type of thing, like even like jujitsu tournaments, you can have guys that

17:49 weigh 400 pounds in the absolute going against much smaller guys. Do you like the idea of

17:55 more weight classes? Do you feel like guys would maybe try to jump around too much or

18:00 something like that? Is there is a good argument against it?

18:04 I don't think there's a good argument against I think it's safer for the fighters. Again,

18:10 they're not going to try to make such a big jump, just so that they can be not be outsized.

18:17 Like you said, I think it's, and I don't, I, to me, it seems like it's a positive thing

18:23 because you're going to have more belts, which means more super fights and more main event

18:29 fights. So to me, it makes sense. It certainly makes sense. I do want to go all the way back

18:36 to the boss root and invitational, boss root and invitational number four, because people

18:41 that were not born in the 1900s, they look at modern MMA and they see these guys, they

18:47 see champions Nate, that'll fight twice a year, right? In 1999 alone, the first year

18:53 that you competed, I think you fought seven times in one year. And think about it this

18:57 way too. Cowboys, Saroni is considered a legend now because he fought like five times

19:01 in one year once. You know what I mean? It's like, Oh, Capitol will fight. He'll fight

19:06 any time anywhere. And you know, he'll fight on short notice. And yeah, he is cool for

19:11 doing that. But going back to the boss root and invitational, you fought three times in

19:15 one day, three times in one day. And one of those was against Eve Edwards when you all

19:20 were both early in your career. So that's a nice feather in your cap. But talk to me

19:24 about that because you fought in both eras, the era of specialization where you were an

19:29 active fighter, quote unquote, if he fought three times a year. And you were also there

19:33 at the very beginning stages where if you wanted to get the check and the trophy and

19:38 the accolades, you had to fight and win three times in one night. So take me through that

19:42 because now it sounds, you know, like cruel than usual punishment, but that's just the

19:46 way it was.

19:47 No, to me, I mean, that's the sport I signed up for, to be honest, was the you know, when

19:53 I started, they called it valetuto or they didn't even have where they weren't settled

19:57 on the name mixed martial arts. So you had now they call valetuto is that with where you

20:03 can headbutt and do soccer kicks and stuff like that. And yeah, and that's that was what

20:08 I wanted to do. Multiple fights in one night, no weight classes. So I mean, to me it's and

20:21 no time limits, you know, but it's I understand it had to go the way it has gone to make it

20:28 popular to make it to bring it to where it is now, because you can't watch one hour fights

20:34 on on pay per view, you know, right? Yeah, they tried that one time, I think in a soccer

20:42 raba and one of the Gracie's hoist Gracie, and went like they ran out of time on that.

20:48 It's awful. Yeah, awful. Yeah. And they turn out to be boring a lot of times too, because

20:54 guys are just resting because they're fighting for an hour. So yeah, but I so I think I don't

21:01 know I love that aspect of it. I love even no gloves that doesn't bother me. The gloves

21:10 are nice because it does it doesn't guys don't bleed as much. And you protect your hands more

21:16 because you can tape your hands better and and protect your knuckles. But yeah, it's definitely

21:23 it's a different animal to fight multiple fights in one night and no way limit no time

21:28 limits stuff like that. So obviously you fought in the modern era where you know, you're going

21:34 to do three fives or five fives depending upon, you know, whether it was a main event or a

21:39 championship fight or something like that. So you know that you've been trained and you

21:43 did, you know, what would you do six six week camps a week camps? How long were your camps?

21:47 Yeah, eight 12 week, but I don't know my my philosophy changed over the years. I would

21:55 say now 12 week would be good, but you have to periodize it to where you're having like

22:00 every fourth week is a recovery week. That way you're not overtraining. But yes. So you

22:08 do all this training. Yeah, eight to 12 weeks, you get in there and you know, I just got

22:12 lighted up for 15 minutes, right? Maybe 25 minutes, right? But in those early days, walk

22:18 me through how because because you want to you want to fight three times that night because

22:23 that means you're in the championship fight and you have a chance to win. But in the first

22:27 fight, they'll goes ding for the first round of the first fight. Or you know, again, it

22:31 may not have rounds. It's just ding. And here you go. Yeah. How do you, how do you put yourself

22:36 in the right brain space? Because some people would think, okay, try to get to take down

22:40 as quickly as possible, try to mount ground up out, like just do whatever you can to get

22:43 out there as quickly as possible. Whereas other people are going to be like, Hey man,

22:47 really pick your shots be super conservative. Like don't throw a huge combination unless

22:52 you know you can in the fight with it. Like, how do you kind of do that? Or do you just

22:56 say screw it? I'm fighting right now. I'm trying not to get killed right now. I'll deal

22:59 with later later. I think maybe a mixture of all three, the things that you said, I think

23:05 some guys would kind of lean one way or the other. They're more conservative or they're

23:11 more, you know, like I'm going to finish it in two minutes or I'm done kind of thing.

23:17 But I think everyone kind of had that mindset of you only have one fight. And if you win

23:24 that fight, then you get another fight. So you don't really think ahead because it doesn't

23:29 matter if you lose that fight that you're on. So, but I think one of the main things in

23:36 those kind of tournaments is that you're you're looking for the finish. You're not looking

23:42 to I mean, again, there weren't time limits in like the boss room. There was no time.

23:49 So you finished that. That's the goal is to finish them. And so it I think there's maybe

23:57 like I said, a little a little of both sometimes you're conservative because you're not you're

24:01 not going to waste your energy. But at the same time, when there's an opportunity, you

24:05 got to take it and that's that's your chance to end the fight and move on. So I think it

24:11 was really good because guys would really look for the finish. And when somebody was

24:16 going for the finish, that was really exciting because it's like that's I think that era

24:22 produced some really good finishing technique. Oh, and dude, when I have when I have friends

24:30 over to have whiskey and cigars and all that, most of the time I'll put on fight pass and

24:35 we'll just watch old fights from Japan, where you know, the first round will maybe be it's

24:39 the 10 minute first round like in pride. And then you add the subsequent rounds or something

24:43 like that. But well, let's talk a little bit about the difference between fighting in

24:47 Japan and fighting in America, because before your first UFC fight, you had like a close

24:52 to 30 fights, not like I mean, they weren't all in Japan, but you you had fought a ton

24:58 in Japan. You come over to America, you're I guess you come back to America to fight

25:03 in the UFC. I think your 30th fight was your first one in your UFC if I remember correctly.

25:08 So what's the difference between fighting in Japan versus fighting in America? Obviously,

25:14 in Japan, it's a it's a different kind of crowd. There may be a little bit quieter, whereas,

25:20 you know, if you're fighting in Vegas, it's just like it's insanity drunken craziness.

25:23 You know, a lot has been made about some, you know, the Yakuza, the Japanese mafia side

25:29 of the business over in Japan and some of the crazy stuff with there. But then there's

25:33 a lot of a lot of craziness, even in the UFC and a lot of shady stuff that happens behind

25:38 closed doors that people would never even know about that I can't really talk about

25:41 on the show because I didn't get permission. But just just in general, how different is

25:46 it fighting in the two different places for those different organizations?

25:49 Yeah, I think it's the culture. It's just a totally different culture. So you pointed

25:55 out kind of one of the symptoms of the the culture, like the philosophy, I guess, of

26:01 the culture where that I mean, they're they're looking at it as a sport, as an art. And so

26:11 they watch quietly to observe and they want to they want to see something beautiful. They

26:17 want to see a great technique. They want to see something dramatic. So they're waiting

26:22 for that. And then when they see that, even if it's not their guy, like they they're cheering

26:29 their they're they're watching it as as entertainment and for the technique aspect. And I think

26:38 in America, it's definitely a lack. I would I would say it's more negative. Not everyone

26:46 because I think there are a lot of sports and that they they do love the actual sport

26:52 and art of mixed martial arts. But I think a lot of people just want to see somebody get

26:58 a bloody nose and get knocked out and all this stuff. So they're they're looking at it more

27:03 for the the violence, right? And yeah. And so in Japan, it's actually fighting there.

27:12 There was a lot less pressure to win, which freed you up to go out and perform better,

27:21 like they just wanted you to perform it and do well. They didn't care if you won or lost.

27:28 And so if you win out and and you fought hard, you're gaining fans. It didn't matter when

27:34 or lose. In America, I think it's not the same. I think the culture is more like you.

27:41 If you lost, even if you put on a good fight, it's like, ah, too bad you lost. I mean, it's

27:47 not completely because like I said, there are some some more true fans that really understand

27:53 the sport and they love a fight even if their guy doesn't win or if you know, they don't

27:59 care who wins necessarily. Well, I think now you see a lot more people

28:03 because, you know, back in the eighties and nineties, it was a karate gym on every corner,

28:07 which, you know, as a holistic fighting style, not really great. Like there's some good kicks

28:12 and good stances and good distance control with karate. But now it's jujitsu. There are jujitsu

28:17 gyms everywhere. And so whereas, you know, drunken morons used to be like, I'll get off the ground,

28:22 just stand up all this stupid crap. They'll say now they've trained and they're like,

28:26 Oh, I've been stuck there before. Like I tried to move my leg that direction and it wasn't working

28:32 or then I gave up the mouth, you know, so we're a little bit smarter, but it's kind of like how I

28:37 watch baseball because I have a big baseball background and I've watched a lot of baseball.

28:41 So most drunken idiots only want to see home runs, right? Whereas like, I'm looking at how the how

28:47 the catcher set up to get a particular call from the umpire that's been stretching the strike zone

28:53 for the last two or three innings. And they get the strike call. Like that's the stuff that I'll

28:57 nerd out on. So hopefully more and more Americans will start training and realize that, Hey,

29:02 you can't just stand up unless you're Derek Lewis, because apparently every time he's on his back

29:05 and wants to stand up, he just stands up. But everyone else that's normal. That's not really

29:10 how it happens. I do want to fast forward a little bit in your UFC career. So you've been fighting,

29:16 you've been fighting, you've won tournaments, but now you're in the biggest organization at the time.

29:20 It was, you know, UFC and pride. And now you're fighting Anderson Silva. And so this was still

29:26 kind of early where Anderson wasn't really considered the goat. He hadn't gone on that super, super

29:32 long run. And so you had had losses before, but this was a loss in a championship fight. And you

29:37 know, we're enough removed from it where I hope hopefully I'm not bringing upset feelings. But

29:41 obviously that's a fight you would have wanted to win. It's a fight that didn't go your way.

29:44 Take me through after the fight though. I mean, if you want to talk about, if you want to talk

29:49 about the ins and outs of the first round and kind of what that looked like and kind of what you saw

29:53 and what you broke down in film, feel free. But I'm interested in what happens afterwards. Because

29:58 you have this huge build up, you go in there, you fight, you lose in the first round. And

30:05 a lot of guys would just crumble. And maybe they, they go out and have a couple more fights and

30:10 they lose those and then they're just out of the business entirely. But I mean, this was just

30:14 kind of that first kind of headline loss of your career. And I'm just curious how you handled it.

30:19 Yeah, I mean, it was definitely tough. Any losses tough. It's always, it's always tough.

30:28 It's definitely, it was definitely easier once, once I knew who I was, once I once I got saved.

30:37 But yeah, I mean, well, so, you know, that fight, it's, it's like we had the game plan,

30:50 it was working. And it's funny actually. What was the game plan? If you don't mind me asking,

30:57 because when I watched, it's kind of hard to surmise what, what, what exactly was the

31:01 game plan that you and the team put together? It was basically fight on the feet until there's

31:09 an opportunity to take him down and then take him down and control him and, you know, ground and

31:15 pound. So it was working like we were on the feet. I actually landed some body shots.

31:24 And he did, he went for a flying knee, I think, after I landed something and I caught his knee,

31:31 I caught his leg and took him down. And I was working on the ground. And I think it was

31:37 McCarthy. He stood us up. He's like saying, you know, you got to work, you got to work. And so I

31:45 like, I postured up to throw some ground and pound in his guard and he stood us up. So I was like,

31:53 really upset that he stood us up. I was like, I mean, I remember Joe Rogan recently or I don't

32:00 know, I saw clip recently anyway that he was talking about how he thinks there should be no

32:04 standups. And I again, I'm from that era. It's like, let's see who wins the fight. Why are we,

32:09 right? You know, letting this guy off the bottom. And but so I mean, it really upset me. And that's

32:16 the problem is that instead of just forgetting it and saying, no, like, it is what it is, I got

32:22 to go back to my game plan. I was like, I'm going to take this guy right back down. And so

32:29 it caused me to, you know, like a break in my concentration. And so I was on the feet instead of

32:40 working my standup that I had been the game plan, which was on the feet. I just kind of was like,

32:47 okay, looking for a takedown. And I caught, I caught one of his straight lefts. And I was like,

32:52 you know, it, it was a good shot. So I was like, okay, I just shot in rather than, again,

33:01 it wasn't the game plan. So I ate one of the punches I shot in, bad shot, hips up, head down.

33:07 He did a nice switch. And I got put on bottom, he threw a punch from the top and then

33:18 I, he was trying to punch. So I had my guard up. And he was like doing hammer punches kind of

33:26 on the side of my hand. And so I was defending. And then the ref stopped it. And I was, I was

33:32 upset. But at the same time, I knew I was like, I can't just stay there and not move and think

33:38 that the ref's not going to fight start to stop the fight. So I was really upset for multiple

33:43 reasons. You know, one, I felt like I could have kept fighting that. So I was upset. The fight got

33:51 stopped that I didn't move, but then also at the stand up. So I mean, it was kind of like,

33:56 you had all these things. And it really, yeah, just, it was horrible afterwards.

34:07 Again, because, you know, back then, my identity was fighting. Like that's who I was. That was

34:16 where my value came from. And so I mean, you know, losing that fight was just, I was in

34:26 unbelief. I couldn't believe I lost. I was like, I knew I was going to beat that guy. And

34:30 I could have, I felt him, I, you know, I was on the feet with him. I felt his speed. I felt his

34:37 power. I felt his grappling. And yeah, I could have beaten him, but I didn't. And in the end,

34:44 ultimately, it was it's for a good reason. If I would have won the belt at that point,

34:52 I, I would be in a bad spot right now. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have for my kids. Probably I'd be

34:59 divorced. Lots of stuff. Well, certainly get more into all that goes. But let's keep nerding out on

35:06 MMA. So I appreciate you going into a loss. But let's talk about a really, really big win. So

35:12 you leave the UFC, you go over to strike force, and you're fighting for the welterweight title,

35:16 strike force against a guy I think people have heard of named Tyron Woodley, who went on a nice

35:20 little tear in the UFC. And you win that spectacular fashion so much so that before we got on here,

35:26 and I was putting your, your YouTube channel link on to hear if you type in your name into

35:31 YouTube, it'll automatically go versus Tyron Woodley. In my opinion, not having watched every

35:39 single one of your fights, it was one of the most impressive performances, not just because of how

35:42 it ended, but because of what Tyron Woodley was at the time, and also what he turned into,

35:48 you just smashed him. Yeah, you basically just just ran right through him. It was a very,

35:53 very incredible performance. So take me through that new organization. Now you got a belt around

35:57 your waist. Yeah, I mean, that Tyron, yeah, he was undefeated at that point. And

36:04 I mean, he was and is a beast, like he is super strong, fast, very athletic, very good wrestling,

36:13 good boxing actually hits very hard. And yeah, you said I ran right through him, but I mean,

36:21 it was a scrap. It was a fight. I'll take that back. I'll buy that back just a little bit. But you

36:27 know, because it's not like you ran through him in the first 30 seconds. I mean, you finished it

36:31 late is yeah, I think it was the fourth, fourth round. But you know, it was, it was a good fight.

36:36 But I mean, I definitely was winning the fight, but right off the bat, he hit me.

36:42 And I'm pretty sure it just knocked like it. I'm pretty sure I just kind of trip because it

36:48 off balance me. But at the same time, it could have been a little flash knockdown because everyone

36:53 thought that and you know, the commentators like, Oh, knockdown already. And so he like hit me and

36:58 then rushed me against the cage. And I'm like, wow, this is a great way to start the fight. But

37:04 and then he's he had me pressed up against the cage and he had a wrist strap like a one on one

37:11 behind my back. Like so his arm went behind my back to the far side and had my wrist.

37:17 And so we had recently drilled like the escape for that. And I was like, trying the normal way,

37:23 you know, the correct way. And his grip was so strong. I remember I was like, this guy is

37:28 crazy strength. So I had to turn the wrong way to spin out of it. Like basically, I had to give

37:34 him my back to get my hand out. And and yeah, so but I think by the end of the first round,

37:42 I knocked him down once. And same kind of thing that the fight stopped. And really,

37:48 I think we just had a really good game plan. I was training. I trained really hard for it.

37:53 Very focused. I had great striking with Jake Ramos coach, Jake Ramos, my boxing coach at the time.

38:01 And we put together a really good game plan to keep the pressure on him and yeah, just just keep

38:14 keep the pressure on him. Whether it's grappling, striking, put him on the cage a lot. Actually,

38:20 I got to work with my old karate teacher, the guy that I very first, you know, I walked into his dojo

38:27 and said I wanted to be a UFC fighter. And so he became a play a police officer later.

38:34 But he was still training with guys. So I had him to the gym. And we would work like once or twice

38:40 a week coming up to that fight for, you know, probably like eight to 12 weeks. And he worked on

38:49 this combo on the cage where you get this you get head position, you grab his wrist and you elbow.

38:56 And then he's like, Oh, and then you can do the second elbow. And then so that's literally the

39:01 combination that I knocked iron out with at the end there was the combination that my karate coach

39:09 showed me. That's really interesting. So we're talking about kind of the big losses, big wins,

39:16 those types of things. But I guess if you look at your career, Nate, is there other than the

39:21 Anderson silver loss? Is there a loss that hurts, especially bad? Or is there a win other than the

39:27 Tyrone Woodley win? Were you on the championship where you're like, no, that was where I feel like

39:31 I was at my absolute best or are those two kind of like the the book ends of good bad of your career.

39:36 Yeah, I would say they're probably the book ends. But at the same time, I have a lot of

39:42 losses that really hurt and a lot of wins that were really spectacular. Like,

39:49 of course, I want to talk about the wins. But the I was just thinking, no, I'll talk about both. But

39:56 I had a fight. Well, my first the first time I won the belt over in pancreas, like I said, the

40:03 the finals and the semifinals were on the same night. And that I show up to the fight the sickest

40:09 I've ever been in my entire life, even up till now. And I was just like, man, I don't know if I

40:15 can fight. But I had these, what do you call them, like puss satchels all over my tonsils.

40:20 And I was sick for three months in bed for after that fight. I mean, it was like horrible.

40:27 So I fought the first fight against a guy named Cunyoku and then

40:31 Shoni Carter in the finals and just and it went to overtime. And it was tough, you know, so just that

40:40 that was a pretty awesome win. Just kind of going through all that, you know, and then

40:46 another fight I lost the belt to this guy named Cunyoku, that same guy that I beat in the semifinals.

40:55 He ended up beating me later on in my career and he took the belt. And then like a year or two

41:02 later, I rematched him and knocked him out with a flying knee in the in the third round with a

41:06 back and forth fight. I mean, it was a great fight. Had another fight like that with a guy named

41:12 Misaki Kazuo. Damian Maya was awesome. Paul Harris was a great fight. And but yeah, like the fights

41:22 that that hurt. I mean, there's, yeah, it comes back to a lot of times, I just didn't fight the

41:30 game plan. Chael Sonnen was one of them. I know I could have beaten him. It was, I feel like at the

41:37 end of the fight, I had him, but it was only three rounds. And and yeah, just, you know, Kami,

41:45 well, a lot of the fights that were close, you know, they bother me where it's like, I feel like

41:53 if it's close, that always goes the other way. And but yeah, I don't know. Definitely Woodley

42:03 would have been the best fight in my career. And then Anderson, yeah, just just losing the

42:09 chance to be a UFC champion would be the biggest defeat.

42:14 Well, let's talk about where you're at now because you haven't had a fight in a couple of years.

42:20 And so as far as I know, you haven't officially retired. You know, there are a lot of guys that,

42:26 you know, tried to extend their career. And especially in MMA, that can be pretty dangerous in a lot

42:33 of different ways because the reason why it's so dangerous for old fighters to be on like all

42:38 kinds of illegal supplements is because they've got all the stuff in their brain. They've got the

42:44 education. And so there's, there's nothing more terrifying than like a 25 year old in their prime

42:49 with a 45 year old's, you know, brain and knowledge of fighting like that. That's like the scariest

42:53 proposition. But when guys age, it's obviously the body that starts to fail them, the cardio,

42:58 the chin, the different things. So for you, do you want to keep fighting? Is that something

43:03 that you're still like actively in process to do? Have you called it a career? Do you want to

43:08 call it a career? Do you want to fight forever? Like, what do you think?

43:11 That's a good question. I mean, at this point, so I don't know if you've heard any of my other

43:18 interviews before, but I came out of retirement based on like when I got saved, I was going to fit,

43:26 I was going to quit fighting completely. I was done. I said, you know, this has been

43:31 my everything for however many years and I'm done with it. I don't want I want to follow

43:37 do what God has for me. And but shortly after saying that I had a vision, I saw a belt. And so

43:47 assumed like, okay, well, that means I'm going to be UFC champion, whatever. So but my, you know,

43:54 my career went the way it did. And and my UFC career 2017, I was released from USC and just was

44:06 kind of like, well, I must have misunderstood what that vision was misinterpreted or whatever.

44:13 So I quit and I was already in seminary at that point and was planning on doing international

44:19 missions. And later that year, so that was like, like I said, right at the end of 2017, then on

44:28 Easter day of 2018, I fell asleep and had a dream. And I've told this before on interviews and

44:40 so I had a dream. I was walking with someone and he said, you remember Abraham's promise?

44:47 And he like pointed up and I see all the stars. So I'm like thinking, of course, yeah, Abraham's

44:54 promise, he would have descendants as many as the stars. And I said, yeah, but his promise was

45:01 ultimately fulfilled in a spiritual, spiritual nature, because through faith in Jesus, we become

45:10 children of Abraham, because he is like the father of faith as the Bible calls him. So,

45:17 so then this person says, okay, what about your, what about your promise? Or he said, what about

45:26 yours? But I knew he meant like the vision. And I was thinking, yeah, okay. Well, I said,

45:33 I said, well, I would rather be a spiritual champion than a worldly champion. And he said,

45:42 okay, well, because you've chosen the spiritual, I'm going to give you both. And suddenly,

45:49 I became aware that I was dreaming because I knew it wasn't a normal dream. And my mind was

45:55 completely awake. I was still sleeping, but I was aware. And I was thinking, like, who am I

46:02 talking to? And I said, I said, okay, how do I know this is you and not just a crazy dream?

46:08 And he said, I'll confirm it. And so I woke up, went to my wife and told her the dream. And she,

46:18 I was like, what does that mean that he's going to confirm it? And she said, I don't know, but

46:23 if it's from God, you'll know. And I said, okay, so later that week, we went to a prayer meeting at

46:30 my friend's house, he lived about an hour away. And we go in and I only knew him and one other guy

46:40 there. And the rest of people were strangers. And so we do a Bible study and then we're,

46:47 they turned on the worship music, like really loud. So you couldn't even, you couldn't hear

46:55 people if they were talking, you know, and, and I was singing. And then this guy came up to me and

47:01 he said, Hey, I believe I have a word from the Lord for you. And I said, okay. And he said,

47:12 God wants you to keep fighting. And he kind of paused like that. And he said, and he said,

47:19 the good fight. And he says that you're a warrior and he's going to train your hands for war,

47:26 your fingers for battle. And he keeps bringing up all these like fighter warrior images from,

47:33 from the Bible and scriptures and things like that. So I was like, wow, I wonder if this is what

47:39 God was talking about. So I kind of talked to him for a little bit and then he went away. And then

47:44 I was staying there thinking about it. And then another guy came up to me that this is the one of

47:50 the guys that I knew. And he said, Hey, you know, I know, we know each other. So, but I had this

47:59 vision just now of, I saw a picture of like the movie warrior where these two guys are in the

48:05 finals. And, and I think it's for you. And like one of the guys, he went, he wins a tournament and

48:11 the other guy taps out. And so he says, you know, maybe is there something you need to submit to

48:17 God about? And I said, I don't know, you know, so again, I'm thinking like, this is kind of strange,

48:25 you know, to in a row about fighting. And but anyway, so like I kind of sit down and I was thinking

48:31 about it. And then another guy comes up to me, another stranger. And by the way, the first guy

48:38 who came up to me, I asked him afterwards, like, did, could you tell I was a fighter? He's like,

48:45 no, he's like, what do you mean? And I was like, well, yeah, like my ears, or did you see that I

48:50 look like a fighter? And he's like, it's like, no, I was like, do you know what MMA is or call

48:55 failure? And he's like, no, what's that? He had no clue about any of that stuff. So then again,

49:02 this I sat down after the second guy came up and then another guy comes up and he said, hey,

49:08 you're your friend over here asked if I would pray and if God would speak something to you.

49:17 So I didn't. And when I was praying, I saw a picture and it looked like you were

49:24 maybe wrestling somebody. He said, it looked like you were like pushing up against him. So yeah,

49:30 you know, and the same thing, I asked him the same question was like, do I look like a fighter,

49:33 you do you know what call failure is? He's like, no. And yeah, so, and then like later that year,

49:43 another friend asked if I was going to fight again, I said, yeah, I think so. And he got tears in his

49:50 eyes and he said, he said that I was on the microphone. And like he saw a vision, he said,

49:58 I was talking to people about Jesus and I was wearing a belt after a fight. And I was like, wow,

50:04 that's crazy. And so yeah, I mean, that's, that's kind of been the tension in my life for the last,

50:12 you know, since 2017 and 2018 is does God want me to fight? Or so I came out of retirement.

50:23 Well, basically in 2020, we sold our house. I finished seminary and we were going to move

50:32 to Thailand. We couldn't get there because the pandemic. So we ended up moving to Florida.

50:38 And I was thinking, okay, well, I'm going to do sports ministry. I'm going to, you know, set up

50:42 Bible study at the gym. I'm going to preach the gospel on the mat. And then I'm going to train

50:46 because I believe God wants me to fight. So I did that and had my first fight back. After four years

50:56 of retirement, I fought twice and I think it was 2020, 2021. And one one lost one. And then 2022,

51:10 I had four or five fight offers. I accepted them all. They all fell through. And so,

51:21 you know, that kind of made me think like, okay, I'm doing all this training. And

51:26 at this point, I know there's nothing I can do. Like I'm, I'm feeling the training more than ever.

51:34 Like, I can't train like I used, I can't, I can't train full time, like a professional needs to,

51:40 after I can only train once a day. And, and if, if I'm able to train every day, it's only once a day,

51:47 you know, and, and even that's just like injuries and it's, you know, it can be brutal at a certain

51:57 point. So I mean, at this point, I'm like, okay, if God wants me to fight again, he's going to open

52:05 the door and he's going to have to get me ready. But as far as what I'm focused on now is just

52:14 ministry and just doing what, what I believe God wants me to do. We are, we are going to be

52:24 renting our house out here in, in Florida. So basically we're moving again. And I believe that

52:31 God's calling us to Myanmar, which used to be called Burma, it's the country between Thailand and

52:39 India. And so I've been involved with a children's home out there. We started a Christian school

52:47 out there that, that's official, it's official, but it's not running yet because of there was the

52:54 military coup there and all that. And so I believe that's, that's where I'm going to be going. And

53:00 if I'm doing sports ministry, it'll be there. I'm also connected with FCA fellowship of Christian

53:06 athletes. So like, I think in a week and a half, my son and I are going to Armenia to do a sports

53:15 ministry camp there. But yeah, so I mean, again, I have no clue now what the, what the dream meant.

53:23 Of course, here's the thing, if God, if it really meant what I thought it meant, God can do it. Like

53:28 God, God is able to make me a champion. And it has nothing to do with my skills or my strength or

53:38 my athleticism, my training. So if that's what he wants, he's going to have to do it. Because at

53:44 this point, I know for a fact, I cannot do it on my own, I can't do it in my own strength. I can't

53:51 train enough. I, I couldn't even if I wanted to take steroids, I couldn't do that because it's just,

53:58 it's too much, you know, like too much pain. I'm done. I physically, I can't do it. I love training

54:06 still. I still, I still work out. I still wrestle and stuff. But it's, you know, I just kind of, I

54:14 don't have the mindset of the desire to, to win like I used to. And I mean, I love the sport of

54:24 wrestling, boxing, kick, you know, I love mixed martial arts, but it's more of a

54:29 something fun for me at this point. It's not, not something I want to do seriously.

54:34 Well, this is not like pickleball. Like if you don't take MMA seriously, it has

54:41 dire physical consequences. So, man, I appreciate you. I have so many other follow

54:47 questions, but I feel like it'll send us way off into to left field. I think I just want to let

54:50 your, I think I want to just let your story about that speak for itself, because that's very interesting

54:56 to wind back a little bit before that though, because you've teed it up obviously a lot at this

55:00 point. You did become a Christian at some point, your fight career. So if you could give us, I guess

55:06 give us the short version of that story about how you became a Christian and use whatever

55:11 theological language you want to use, because everybody has their preferences as to how they

55:14 want you to describe it, but describe, describe it how you would want to describe it. And then

55:19 describe the mindset shift, because I knew another guy, he was a, he was an enforcer on a hockey team,

55:26 getting into MMA, and then became a Christian. And I remember at the time, this is like 15 years

55:31 ago being like, man, I don't think you can fight. I don't think you can punch people in the face

55:34 for fun now, because you're a Christian. I think that's against the rules, right? And obviously,

55:39 I've kind of evolved my thinking on that up to now, but so you become a Christian and talk to me

55:43 about how that affects the fight game for you. Yeah. Well, you can punch people in the face for

55:49 fun as it happens. I mean, I do it every day with my friends, right? So that's right. Yeah, I mean,

55:57 that actually initially that that was kind of one thing. Aside from the fact that it was in my heart,

56:04 it was idolatry, that was the biggest thing. But then there was that kind of piece of like, man,

56:08 is this even moral? Is this something I should be doing? But yeah, when you look at it as a sport,

56:15 and you're not fighting with hatred in your hearts and you're looking at the technique and

56:22 yeah, any sport, there can be injuries, there can be things where you're doing something that's

56:29 going to hurt the other person physically to get them to so you can win, right? And that's-

56:34 If I can actually pause you there, Nate, I had that discussion with somebody else because they were

56:38 wanting their kids to get into Jiu Jitsu because they're like, well, the point of Jiu Jitsu is hurting

56:44 people. I was like, well, let's take a step back. You let your kid play football, like, you know,

56:49 you're training your kid to smash into another kid and to overpower them physically. And so

56:57 it's like, yeah, so for parents out there that are listening to this and they're thinking,

57:00 yeah, I don't know that you should put your seven-year-old in a smoker, boxing match with some

57:06 other seven-year-old or something like that. But you're exactly right. In any type of physical

57:11 altercation, it may not look like a fight, but there is a battle of strength using the body

57:17 that is applicable to what they're doing there, hockey, you know, there are others. So anyway,

57:21 I just want to kind of pop in there, but keep going. Yeah, right. And it can be used for good,

57:25 too. It's like, that's not the only thing is when you train, it can be used for good to defend

57:31 people and to defend your family of yourself, whatever. So, but yeah, so I'm sorry, I'm trying

57:40 to remember what the question was. No, you're good. This is what happens when I ask 17 questions

57:45 at once, because I can't remember what I ask you. But ultimately, like, how did you become a

57:49 Christian and then immediately what did that do to your fight? Okay, yeah. Yeah, so basically,

57:55 2013 was when I got saved. So kind of leading up to that, 2012 was the time Woodley fight.

58:05 And I won that fight and that was kind of on top of the world. And

58:11 but, you know, let me let me step back farther than that. So I grew up in a Christian home.

58:20 My dad was actually a pastor when I was young. And

58:25 my parents got in a big fight at one point and got basically split up. And I saw a lot of

58:35 violence and other kind of sin drunkenness and sexual immorality and stuff. I lived with my dad

58:40 for years after that grew up in high school with him. And we went to church every Sunday. And

58:46 so my perception of what Christianity was, and I hadn't read the Bible, you know, I'd been taught

58:55 the Bible, my perception was, okay, well, so we're forgiven. I understood that aspect. Jesus

59:02 died for our sins. We're forgiven. And you should try to do what's right. But you're always going to

59:08 sin. And, you know, the Christians I knew looked just like the rest of the world.

59:15 Right. For the most part, you know, other than maybe they were married or something. But

59:20 so yeah, it's kind of like, okay, that so now I understand that's what that's that's how I'm

59:26 going to live. But I lived that way for, well, I kind of actually went off the deep end at first,

59:32 went totally to the world and doing things like I knew were sinful. But then at a certain point,

59:39 I felt convicted over it. And I was like, okay, I need to start living the right way.

59:44 And it was at that time I met or started dating my wife. And we got married a year later.

59:55 And but the problem was my heart wasn't changed. So like all the the lust and the anger

1:00:02 from growing up and and all of the again, it was just idolatry, just like my

1:00:10 purpose in life didn't really have anything to do with God. It was kind of like I wanted what I

1:00:18 wanted. And then I wanted also to be saved and kind of have Jesus on the side. And and so that's

1:00:25 how I lived for years and tried to do the right thing, but what would always fail, looked at

1:00:33 pornography a couple different times, kissed a woman that wasn't my wife. And so like one of

1:00:42 those instances was after the time would we fight, you know, alcohol and things like that that kind

1:00:49 of led me into those situations where I didn't have the right judgment. And and so and then

1:00:57 2013, 2000 ended 2012. I lost to Torek Safadeen. I lost the belt that I just won. And I lost to

1:01:06 Jake Yellenberger. And I was at a low point. Our marriage was failing. We were struggling

1:01:14 financially because the IRS was after us for money that we didn't really owe. But if the IRS

1:01:21 thinks you owe them money, then you do. And they're coming for it. So I was very stressful in that

1:01:28 situation. And I just became very angry, became suicidal at one point, and got to the point where

1:01:38 I said, Okay, well, I don't I don't believe in God anymore. You know, I'm I'm done with this. And

1:01:43 every night I would take my little girl. I think she was three years old at the time. And I would

1:01:50 take her to bed. And I would pray. We'd read a Bible story. And I put her to bed that way. So

1:01:58 I did that for a couple of days and just felt so convicted. Like, how am I going to teach my kid

1:02:05 this if I don't believe it? And I'm just going to do it just to make her feel good. And it really

1:02:11 made me consider, Okay, well, if if Christianity is not true, if God isn't real, then what is real?

1:02:18 And it just made me consider the other options. You know, so I was really actually searching. Okay,

1:02:26 what is true? And I fell back on the point with no, I mean, first of all, I can just look at my

1:02:31 little girl and see how precious she is. And and I know that's not just me. Her value doesn't come

1:02:37 for me. If I'm not here, she's still valuable. So her value is intrinsic. And I knew it's like,

1:02:45 no, God made her. And I knew the sin in my life. So I'm like, okay, well, if if Jesus isn't real,

1:02:54 I'm kind of screwed anyways, because I'm not a good person. And so yeah, I mean, I just kind of

1:03:02 went back to my faith, but nothing had really changed. And there was a night I was with my wife,

1:03:13 and I just basically, well, I cried out to God and just was asking him, you know, to help me in.

1:03:23 And then I remember having all these memories pop up and kind of thinking like, that's weird.

1:03:32 Why am I thinking of this thing? And then this next thing and another thing and another thing.

1:03:37 And it was almost like somebody was showing it to me. And that, you know, at a certain point,

1:03:42 I kind of realized, oh, man, God is showing me this that he's been with me. And, you know, that

1:03:50 he's real, but also that he's been with me through everything. And I remember I jumped up and down,

1:04:01 and I was like, God's real. And my wife was like, what? What are you talking about? And so I started

1:04:06 explaining to her what was happening. But then I was like, Oh, no, God's been with me through

1:04:11 everything. And it just, I felt this conviction like you have to tell her. So the women that I had

1:04:19 kissed, I told her. And I was just like, you know, she was just in shock because first I'm telling

1:04:27 her this crazy story. And then I'm telling her, like I'm gonna quit fighting and then I'm confessing

1:04:34 sin to her. And then I'm like, but but don't worry, everything's gonna be changed from here on out,

1:04:38 like, like I'm done fighting. I'm not done chasing after the world and all this stuff, right? And

1:04:46 so I think God really protected her heart through with us all because she

1:04:51 she had a piece about her that she just kind of was waiting to see, okay, is this real or is this,

1:04:58 you know, is he just is just kind of an episode or whatever? Because, you know, here's the other

1:05:04 thing like people didn't know I seemed like a good guy. And in some ways I was, but other ways I

1:05:12 wasn't like I had an anger problem that that I hid because I knew it's wrong. I knew

1:05:18 like I would get rage, you know, and so I would hide it. But my wife knew about it. And so like,

1:05:28 I would punch holes in the wall and things like that. And, you know, basically throw

1:05:33 temper tantrums and scream and stuff. And so she she knew that side of me, then I was confessing

1:05:41 this other side of me. And also she caught me looking at pornography and stuff too. So,

1:05:47 so she knew the bad of me as well. And I was just telling her like it's it's all going to be

1:05:56 change from here on out. And I remember at one point praying, you know, really with tears like

1:06:05 God, I want to live the right way. But I've tried for years and I can't. Can you change me?

1:06:11 And I felt in my heart, like he said, of course I can. And literally, like I said,

1:06:16 from that day forward, he took that anger and rage out of my heart that I had. He took the lust

1:06:23 out of my heart and that idolatry of chasing after worldly things and chasing after, you know,

1:06:31 making life about me. It's just from that day forward, it's been completely changed. And so,

1:06:38 yeah, I mean, then you, you know, you knew about the vision and all that. But so that kind of

1:06:42 brought me back to fighting. But I was still but it wasn't the same because I had a new mission,

1:06:49 even though I was still fighting. It's like, I mean, I remember I went, I went to the gym and

1:06:58 wanted to start a Bible study like the first day after I got saved and, you know, people were

1:07:05 coming and like I wasn't equipped or, you know, I shouldn't have been teaching at that point.

1:07:14 But, but God used it. And then I went through some some really, really hard time, like a month later

1:07:19 and went to the hospital twice and ended up having, you know, basically I was being

1:07:27 demonically attacked. And I was hearing voices and stuff and people thought I was crazy.

1:07:32 And I was crazy, but I was like, literally, I was being, I was hearing demonic voices,

1:07:37 telling me to do things and making me question stuff. And so that's when I opened up the Bible

1:07:44 and read it the correct way for the very first time in my life, I read, I started reading Genesis

1:07:49 1. I was like, I'm going to read this book from top to back, you know, from, from beginning to end,

1:07:55 every page I'm going to until because I know the answers in here. And so after Genesis 1,

1:08:02 those voices went away because those voices that day, they were telling me that God doesn't exist.

1:08:08 They were telling me that, you know, if God, if God does exist, he's not all powerful because

1:08:14 of look at all the evil in the world. And then, well, if if he is all powerful, that means he

1:08:19 himself is easily because, you know, look at all the evil in the world. If he could stop it, why

1:08:23 doesn't he? And then it was also telling me like, well, you know, then it was like a, like a, I don't

1:08:31 know how to explain it, it's almost like solipsism, if you know what that is. Like an idea of like that,

1:08:37 I am God, like this is my creation and all this stuff. And so I read Genesis 1 and all those voices

1:08:44 went away because it's like, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Okay, well,

1:08:50 I didn't create the heavens and the earth for one. If God is like, only God could create something

1:08:57 out of nothing. Only God can create life. And so, and then, is he all powerful? Of course, yeah,

1:09:07 he spoke and the light was created. And then you look at everything he created was good.

1:09:12 Like he made the light, he made the sun, the moon, the stars, he made the animals, he made

1:09:17 man. And then he said it was very good. And everything he made was good. So you just right

1:09:24 there, you see the character of God in creation, that everything he made was good. And so those

1:09:31 voices left. Of course, we know where the evil came, you get to Genesis 3. And it's, you know,

1:09:40 the sin of mankind, the disobeying God and brought sin, the curse of sin into the world, into creation.

1:09:49 And that's why we have, you know, bad things in this world now. But yeah, so I mean, that's kind of.

1:09:56 Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing is, well, while you're laying out there, Nate is like,

1:10:02 it's not usually as cut and dry as people would like it to be. And there's so much

1:10:06 human muck and yucky and just weird stuff that goes into all these situations. Because again,

1:10:12 from the outside looking in, a lot of people see Christians like, Oh, well, you became a

1:10:17 Christian and then everything started to work out. It's like, have you ever picked up a Bible?

1:10:22 Like things didn't work out very well for the followers of Christ from what we see in the Bible.

1:10:27 But also when you look at the early church martyrs, you know, these, these people that are just like,

1:10:33 yeah, I mean, I will sing hymns on my way to being eaten by beasts because of the sake of Christ,

1:10:40 because this is temporary pain, but I'm going to get eternal glory from the Father. And so,

1:10:44 I mean, there's a whole lot more that can go into that. The interesting thing for you, Nate,

1:10:48 is that you don't just become a Christian, right? You don't just make that choice or, you know,

1:10:52 God snatches you or whatever, whatever language people want to use. Like you go to seminary,

1:10:56 you mentioned seminary several times in this conversation. So I guess why go that route?

1:11:02 Because most Christians are just fine with, you know, going to church once a week or a few times

1:11:07 a month and, you know, reading their Bible when it's convenient and, you know, listen to some Christian

1:11:10 music when it's not completely awful. And then they just kind of move on with their life. I mean,

1:11:14 you went and took this super seriously from the jump, it seems.

1:11:17 Well, yeah, I mean, like I said, so I started reading the Bible. And once I read the Bible

1:11:24 and understood it, I kind of realized there are a lot of things that I believed and a lot of things

1:11:32 that I was taught that weren't correct. And so I, when I read the Bible, like every Christian

1:11:41 is supposed to be a disciple, like Christians, like Christians and disciples are supposed to be

1:11:50 the same thing. But American church has kind of separated the two. It's like, oh, you can be a

1:11:55 Christian or a disciple. So like the disciples are like higher level Christians or something. But,

1:12:01 no, it's like you're either a disciple, you're not a Christian is my understanding. And I believe

1:12:10 the biblical teaching. And so I, yeah, it's just like, what are we doing? Do we really believe his

1:12:20 message? If we really believe his message, you know, he said not to store up treasures on Earth

1:12:30 that moth and rust can destroy and can be stolen, right? But to store up treasures in heaven where

1:12:35 it can't be stolen. But what do we see people Christians doing? They're storing up treasures on

1:12:42 Earth. So, so why is that is because they don't believe or is it like what's the deal? I just don't

1:12:49 understand how someone can say they believe. Yeah, there's an eternal kingdom that I can store up

1:12:58 riches for. But instead, I'm just, you know, more concerned about, you know, storing up riches here

1:13:07 and making sure my kids know how to do the same and focus, you know, getting my kids to focus on

1:13:14 the things that are temporal. So I mean, yeah, like, I think to me, if you're a Christian,

1:13:26 you're supposed to be a full-time Christian. We're not just Christians on Sundays.

1:13:30 And we're also not supposed to be just like good moral people, right? That's not what Christianity

1:13:38 is. We are ambassadors for Christ. We're supposed to be the people bringing reconciliation

1:13:46 to the lost. And we are supposed to be new creations. We're supposed to live as a new creation.

1:13:53 And we're not supposed to have this mindset of like, yeah, I'm just gonna keep sinning. I mean,

1:13:58 that's one of the biggest things that I got out of, like one of the biggest paradigm shifts was

1:14:05 that I read the Bible and I realized, oh, I wasn't a Christian before. That's because the whole

1:14:12 time I know God was with me. I know he was in my life, but he, I wasn't a Christian. Yeah, like,

1:14:19 he, he was drawing me. I had a Christian, like, cultural, excuse me, a cultural Christian upbringing.

1:14:30 But I wasn't, I hadn't surrendered my lifetime. I, I didn't put my trust in him. I was trusting

1:14:36 myself. I was chasing after the world. Right. The Bible says friendship with the, with the world

1:14:42 is enmity with God, whoever wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1:14:48 And so I, yeah, like the book of first John and, and of course, Jesus's words were the two most

1:14:56 convincing things that told me, yeah, I actually, what happened in 2013 was I got saved. I got,

1:15:04 I was born again. I actually put my trust in Jesus at that point. Because I think we've kind of made

1:15:14 this theology of where faith is just a mental ascent. It's just a, a belief that Jesus is true.

1:15:24 But that's not what biblical faith is. Yes, you, you start there. You, you have to believe it's true.

1:15:31 But if you don't do something with that, right, like James says, faith without works is dead.

1:15:40 And, and so, yeah, I mean, I, to me, if you are a Christian, you are a missionary, right? We're

1:15:49 on the great commission. That's where the word comes from. Like, if you're on a mission, you're

1:15:55 a missionary. So who was the great commission given to us, given to his disciples? What did he tell

1:16:02 his disciples to do? To go and make disciples of every nation, like baptizing them, teaching them

1:16:10 to do the things I told you, right? And what did he tell you? Like, he told you to go make

1:16:16 disciples. So you're, you're, you have to make disciples who are going to make disciples.

1:16:21 And I think that's, yeah. So those kinds of things, when I first read the Bible, it really opened my

1:16:30 eyes to a problem in Christianity, especially in the West. There, there's certainly, we can spend

1:16:38 the rest of the afternoon talking about problems with Christianity in the West. But I think for the

1:16:42 most part, it's a, it's a macro, it's a micro problem that's manifesting as a macro problem. The

1:16:48 micro problem is that Christians are not being serious about their call to make disciples.

1:16:53 They're, they're just content to checkboxes and especially like I live in Oklahoma.

1:16:57 There are more churches here than there are grocery stores and there are, you know, anything

1:17:01 else. And so we're a very, very church culture, but not a very Christian culture, if that makes

1:17:06 any sense. And of course we see, you know, the secularization of the West, the capital of W West,

1:17:13 kind of pushing Christianity to the fringes in very affluent countries, but then Christianity is

1:17:18 thriving in places where it shouldn't, if you know, as, as people might say, so in the Middle East,

1:17:24 in countries where you could literally lose your life, if you have, you know, a copy of the gospel

1:17:29 of John under your mattress, kind of a kind of a situation, then there's more that we can talk

1:17:33 about there. But I guess this, this last question here I got for you will kind of wrap up a little

1:17:38 bit of that discussion. So, so you go to seminary, you take the Bible very seriously. You're taking

1:17:42 ministry very seriously, you know, planting schools and I'm sure church planning will be part of what

1:17:46 you have in your future and all those different things. But culturally speaking, this, I forget,

1:17:52 it may have been two, three months ago, you publicly called out Joe Rogan for basically

1:17:58 being a fool. And I don't mean in his, in his entirety as a person, but when it comes to the Bible,

1:18:03 when it comes to Christianity, you have to surmise that Joe Rogan is a fool. He will say things with

1:18:09 authority and he has none on that subject matter. And every time he mentions it, he says things

1:18:15 like, well, you know, the Bible, we can't trust that this is even written down right because we

1:18:19 don't even have the originals and we don't blah, blah, which shows his ignorance about how the

1:18:24 scripture has been transmuted to us today and how it's been given to us today, how it was translated,

1:18:28 the number of copies we have. But then he'll ask these questions periodically. Do you think

1:18:33 Jesus was a real guy? Like he'll say that out loud. And it's for he's a very smart person. It's

1:18:40 legitimately one of the dumbest things a human being could say and not because of Christianity

1:18:45 being true or not true or any of those types of things. Because if you don't believe that Jesus

1:18:50 Christ was a real Middle Eastern Jewish guy that lived and died under Pontius Pilate at the behest

1:18:56 of the Jewish Sanhedrin, then you don't you can't believe in Alexander the Great. You can't believe

1:19:01 in Genghis Khan. You can't believe in Julius Caesar. You can't believe in any of the Abraham

1:19:08 Lincoln. I mean, you can't. It's such an unbelievable, a testable thing. And it's it's what CS Lewis

1:19:14 would call this chronological snobbery. Because it's like, well, we, you know, we have we have pictures

1:19:19 of Abraham Lincoln, we have this and we have all these accounts, but you could use the same

1:19:23 argument that he's using against Jesus against these other things. And so I guess why did you

1:19:28 decide to call Jordan how because obviously you're both well known names of the MMA space.

1:19:33 Well, why did you do that? And then I guess the other thing is, is, is, would you want to go in

1:19:41 the Joe Rogan experience to talk to him about that? Is there someone else that you think would be,

1:19:45 you know, hyper qualified to deal with that type of interaction? Because he had Stephen Meyer on

1:19:49 here recently. And Stephen Meyer kind of, you know, when it got into the apologetic arguments,

1:19:54 he kind of he didn't really go that far. He kind of stuck to the creation arguments. I think William

1:19:58 Lane Craig would be a tremendous person to try and get on that show because he can deal with

1:20:02 kind of the militant atheist stuff that would be thrown back at him. But just kind of take me

1:20:07 through all that. Yeah, well, so I, I, I chose to do the podcast. The first one with Joe, you know,

1:20:15 talking about Joe Rogan. Because, well, first of all, I, I did a podcast as my doctorate of

1:20:26 ministry project. So basically, after seminar, I started a doctorate of ministry program through

1:20:34 my mentor, Ellen Carr. And, and so, you know, that's something I never wanted to do was podcast or

1:20:42 anything like that. I don't like social media and all that stuff. But, but really felt like that's

1:20:49 what where God wanted me to, to do. And, and so I did that. And I chose that topic for the first

1:20:57 episode because I, over the years, I had a lot of guys, like asked me things or say things.

1:21:07 First of all, like guys in the ministry, even that were talking about Joe Rogan. Now I saw this,

1:21:13 I heard this, and I'm thinking, well, first of all, why are you, why are you spending so much time

1:21:18 watching Joe Rogan? But second, you know, it's like the amount of influence that he has. So,

1:21:26 I wanted a way to respond to that. I remember the first time I heard that he called it a

1:21:32 translation of a translation. I was like, so like, oh my goodness, I can't believe you would say

1:21:36 something so ignorant. But, I mean, I'm not going to go on the social media and say that in a quick

1:21:44 statement, you know, because it'll just, it's, it doesn't make sense. So, I wanted people to

1:21:50 actually know that no, that's actually, actually completely false, what he's saying. And it's kind

1:21:56 of, yeah, again, I don't even know where that idea came up. But it's been said over and over

1:22:06 throughout the years. But, so yeah, so you said, why did I choose that? And then what was the second

1:22:18 part of the question? Well, I guess, you know, would you want to go, would you like, yeah, is there,

1:22:25 is there somebody that you think that is like kind of in that apologetic space that could get

1:22:29 there? Because it's like even having Stephen Meyer on was seemingly a big deal. But that was the

1:22:33 scientist guy. It's only part of the story. Stephen Meyer, yeah, I think I saw part of that.

1:22:37 Yeah, I mean, so listen, if if Joe wanted to have me on, sure, I would do it.

1:22:44 I in my podcast, I recommended a few guys. Now, I would, I personally would prefer that because

1:22:54 these guys are experts, you know, I'm, I'm not like an apologist. That's not my expertise.

1:23:00 So I would recommend either someone like Jeff Durbin, who is a very solid, you know,

1:23:12 presupposition, presuppositional apologist, and very godly, very knows the Bible very well.

1:23:21 Or I would choose someone like Frank Turk. Yeah, because he's very just practical, can give you

1:23:27 very basic, like no brainer answers that make it very clear like, Oh yeah, of course, that makes

1:23:34 sense. And he, you know, that again, that's his job. He goes to colleges and does it everywhere. So

1:23:42 I think both those guys are would be excellent choices. William Lane Craig, he'd be great too.

1:23:48 He's, to me, he's like really maybe philosophical and kind of more like a Jordan Peterson type

1:23:56 guy, which, which is fine. But I think, I think someone like, again, Frank Turk or Jeff Durbin,

1:24:04 I think those would be my top two picks. I follow both those guys. And I think they have great

1:24:12 answers to cultural questions. They deal with all the cultural issues as well as theological and

1:24:19 philosophical stuff. Yeah, I mean, again, it's great to see some of the conversations that are being

1:24:26 had on his show. Because you know, I've listened to a lot of his shows before. And when you see

1:24:33 someone that that's that prominent, the one the one concern I would give to Christians is it's

1:24:37 kind of like the phenomenon with Trump supporters when Kanye West was walking around wearing MAGA hats.

1:24:43 Everyone's like, Oh, we got a cool guy. That's on our team now. I mean, you know, people aren't

1:24:47 going to be able to make fun of us because Kanye and then it's like, you know, like Ben Shapiro

1:24:51 said, live by the Kanye died by the Kanye, but you got to be careful there. But it's like, you

1:24:55 know, Christians, we want, we want Jordan Peterson to become a full fledged believer in Christ, right?

1:25:00 Not just philosophically open to the message of the the scriptures, right? We want a guy like Joe

1:25:06 Rogan to turn his life around because he's got the biggest microphone on the planet. But it's like,

1:25:11 again, that's that's not the point that doesn't mean we don't share the gospel with those people.

1:25:15 And that certainly doesn't mean that we don't hope that those people see, you know,

1:25:18 everlasting eternal change in their hearts and minds. But it does mean like, let's not get too far

1:25:25 far out over our skis, hoping and praying for Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson and you know,

1:25:30 anyone else and not praying for our neighbor or our coworker or something like that. So that's

1:25:35 just, that's just one thing I kind of wanted to talk about there. I want to say one thing about

1:25:39 the because you're kind of mentioning how he's very smart guy, right, Joe, Joe Rogan is very smart.

1:25:45 But then he'll just say something ignorant like that, which just it really points out the biblical

1:25:52 idea that things when it when it comes to God and the spiritual nature, people are willfully like,

1:26:03 you could have the smartest person in the world that will just become so ignorant. And it's like

1:26:11 willful ignorance because they don't want to believe. And so, you know, if I if I went on the show,

1:26:19 my first question would be like, basically, if if I can prove to you that God exists,

1:26:27 that Jesus is who he said he was, are you going to become a Christian? Are you going to give your

1:26:31 life to him? And if you ask him that, he might say, yeah, because he knows he has to. But inside,

1:26:40 he's going to he's not going to want to. He's he's, and a lot of people are like, they're going to

1:26:45 say, no, I wouldn't worship that God. I don't, you know, it's because it's a spiritual, you're saying,

1:26:51 if you know this is true, you're not going to become a Christian. How could you say that? It's

1:26:55 because inside, you don't want it to be true. And therefore, you convince yourself it's not true,

1:27:02 just like Romans one says that people know that God exists, but they suppress that truth

1:27:08 in unrighteousness. They don't, they don't want to believe because of sin.

1:27:11 I think you're absolutely right. And in addition to that, I forget where it was. I think it may have been

1:27:17 anyway, I don't want to quote it. I think it was in Psalms, but it was talking about, you know,

1:27:22 there's there's a difference between people that are simple and people that are fools. So a simple

1:27:26 person is maybe not, they don't have the mental acuity or capability to understanding a concept.

1:27:33 Like when it comes to quantum physics, I am a simpleton, right? I'm not a fool. I'm simple.

1:27:39 I my brain cannot fathom the things that they're teaching. But then there are people that are foolish.

1:27:43 These are people like a Joe Rogan that are very smart people that are intellectually capable.

1:27:48 But there's a heart disconnection. There's a soul disconnection to the content.

1:27:52 Because that's a very frank term question that you ask, which is like, if I could convince you,

1:27:56 would you, would you dedicate your life to them? And it's kind of similar to a question I asked

1:28:00 people before I get into debates. It's, Hey, if you were factually wrong about the stuff that

1:28:06 you were saying, would you want to know? Would you want me to tell you? Because if they're like,

1:28:10 well, yeah, if I'm saying things that are factually inaccurate, I would, I would love for someone to

1:28:14 correct the record. Okay, that's a person you can have a conversation with. But if someone's like,

1:28:18 well, I'm not wrong. And you're bigoted for even suggesting that. What do you even think about

1:28:22 yourself? And yeah, I heard this. And that's a person that's pearls before swine. Do not have

1:28:26 a debate with that person because it's only going to make you mad. And it's only going to make you

1:28:30 sin. And so like that's that's kind of the thing for a lot of people when it when it comes to those

1:28:34 subject matters. But but Nate, we've we've covered a lot of ground here in the last, you know, close

1:28:38 to hour and a half. I really appreciate all the time you gave us today, dig it into the MMA stuff

1:28:43 and also into the Christian stuff. And I think it certainly warrants another conversation down

1:28:47 the road. But for today, that's all I got. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest

1:28:50 before we get you out of here? No, I was thinking, oh, because you mentioned you're in Oklahoma.

1:28:55 My buddy, Dusty Divers is running for Senate there. So I want to give him a plug. He's a very

1:29:03 godly man. He's running in Elgin, Oklahoma. I think it's district 30. Okay, I'm from a lot.

1:29:10 Tell your buddy I'm from a lot. And so that's my neck of the woods. Oh, no way. Awesome. Yeah. Well,

1:29:14 yeah, Dusty Divers. He's awesome. I had him on the podcast twice. So very godly man, very smart guy.

1:29:21 Well, maybe you can make that connection because it's the Southwest Oklahoma. Things are different

1:29:26 down there. Okay. I know you guys in Florida and all your fancy places and all that. But it's a

1:29:30 different world down there. But Nate, Mark, thank you so much for coming on Daunton Life of Man's

1:29:34 Podcast. Yeah, God bless brother. There you go guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Nate,

1:29:38 the great Mark, but before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.

1:29:42 Add on Daunton Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges,

1:29:46 spiritual, mental and physical resilience. So I've got a couple of links for you today.

1:29:50 I got a link to Nate's website where you can get to his social media posts and his, you know,

1:29:54 different podcasts of these got on there. And I've also got a link to his YouTube channel.

1:30:12 Like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to

1:30:15 keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www dot undaunted dot life. Also,

1:30:20 we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music

1:30:25 on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self titled debut album on Face Down

1:30:29 Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember,

1:30:34 keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.

1:30:40 Keep seeking the lion of Judah.