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0:50
This is on Daunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into
0:55
it. All right, guys. Dave, we've got a special guest on the podcast. His name is Nate,
0:59
the great Mark Hoard. So he is an MMA fighter. He formerly was a middleweight and welterweight
1:04
fighter in the UFC. And he's also the former strike force welterweight champion and three
1:08
time hand crates middleweight champion. So this is a guy that he kind of bridged the
1:11
gap between being one of the original guys that started in the 90s. You know, where
1:15
he had to fight multiple times in one night through, you know, to the specialization arrow.
1:19
You know, as you get into the UFC strike force, some of those organizations where you're fighting
1:23
maybe two or three times a year. And so we talk about all that in this episode. So we
1:27
get into the Xs and O's of what early MMA was like compared to today, some of his biggest
1:31
losses, biggest wins. So obviously he won the title against Tyrum Woodley and strike force,
1:36
lost the title fight against Anderson Silva in the UFC, considered by many to be the greatest
1:40
middleweight fighter of all time, even though he's popped several times. But anyway, that's
1:43
not what we talked about today. So we did talk about a lot of kind of the Xs and O's
1:46
and stuff of MMA. And that's all really interesting. But the biggest dominating thing about Nate's
1:51
life is the fact that he's a Christian, he's a Christ follower. And he became a Christ follower
1:55
while he was still fighting. And so you kind of have that inner dissonance that that conundrum
1:59
to where it's like, wait, can I punch people in the face and Sylvia Christian? And I really
2:02
liked his answer to that. But in this interview, today, again, we do talk about the MMA stuff,
2:06
but then we talk a lot about how he didn't just become a Christian, but he took Christianity
2:10
so seriously that he went to seminary. You know, he's selling his house and moving to basically
2:15
go be a missionary and instead of Christian schools. And a lot of very, very interesting
2:19
things. This is a guy that takes his faith and takes study of the scripture and being
2:22
a disciple of Christ very seriously. So there's a lot that you can get out of our interview
2:26
today. So I'm not going to keep him from you any longer. So without further ado, let's
2:29
get into it.
2:30
Name Mark court. Welcome to a Dante life of man's podcast. Thanks for having me, Kyle.
2:36
I'm happy to have you. We got connected about a month back or so. So I'm glad that we kind
2:40
of finally made it to this conversation. I just told you this off air. I didn't really
2:44
know exactly what to do with your interview, because normally I have like a really good
2:48
plan laid out, like, okay, we're going to talk about this and we're going to talk about
2:50
this. But you have two kind of enormous parts of your life that are linked, but also separate
2:56
and that's obviously your MMA career, but also who you are as a Christian today. But
3:02
you did say something off air that makes sense in terms of chronology, it probably would make
3:06
sense to start with the fighting stuff and kind of get into, you know, some of the stuff
3:10
you're doing now with, you know, Bible study and theology training and your future with
3:15
ministry and things like that. So I talked about that in the intro, obviously guys, you
3:18
need to stick around for that. But as dumb as the question as it sounds, like I'm just
3:23
curious how you specifically got into MMA, because my understanding is, is you got in
3:28
in the nineties, like the late nineties is when you got into mixed martial arts. Now
3:32
you had been training martial arts, you know, before that time, obviously, but let's just
3:37
talk about why did you decide to get into it? Because it's not like it is today where,
3:42
you know, you can watch guys on paper view and watch them on, you know, cable news or
3:46
not cable news, but watch them on cable and, you know, guys are little kids are thinking
3:49
I might be a fighter someday, but you didn't really have that in the late nineties. There
3:53
wasn't really like these big organizations. So let's, let's talk about how you got into
3:57
MMA and then we'll, we'll work into the early days.
4:00
Yeah, definitely. I, well, I first heard of the UFC when I was in high school and a couple
4:09
of my buddies had a VHS tape and they loaned it to me. I watched the first three UFCs and
4:16
I loved it. I fell in love. I was always an athlete. I always wanted to do like wrestling
4:22
and boxing and karate and stuff, but I was never able to. And at that point in time, I
4:28
was 16 years old. So I had a job and I had a car and so I just went and found a place
4:34
to train and started training.
4:36
And so I did the same thing as you. There was a local video store in my town called Hastings
4:42
and, you know, you'll see one, two and three. And I'm in like elementary school, I think.
4:45
And my dad and I would watch those and, you know, it's kind of those early days where
4:48
you have like a, you know, a sombre guy versus a boxer and a jujitsu guy versus a sumo fighter.
4:53
Like it was just kind of all these crazy matchups. So I guess, how did you see yourself in that?
5:00
Because like, especially those early UFCs, like it's not, you know, both guys are wearing,
5:05
you know, four ounce gloves and, you know, there's nothing was the same. Like even the
5:09
refereeing, there were really a lot of rules. There was kind of very, very limited rules.
5:13
So what about that was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I've got the skill sets to do that, even
5:18
though I need some training.
5:20
Well, I mean, I guess part of it was that I saw hoist Gracie who, you know, he won the
5:28
first tournaments and he was maybe the smallest or one of the smallest guys of the tournament.
5:34
And I was small in high school. I started, I think as a freshman, I was 99 pounds, less
5:40
than 100 pounds. And I graduated, I think I was 135 as a senior. But basically just
5:50
seeing that you could, there was a sport out there where you could compete against anyone.
5:56
And it didn't matter how big you were. And it was, you know, so much, but it was based
6:01
on technique. And so yeah, when I, when I first saw it, I immediately, I was like, that's
6:07
what I want to do. And I knew I wanted to become become a champion.
6:11
Okay. So let's talk about the early days. So again, we kind of have to go back to realizing,
6:17
you know, the UFC is 30 years old, but at the time it's, you know, people don't really
6:22
know how did you get fights? How did you go about training? Because you hear these stories
6:26
about, you know, you know, Randy Couture and Chelsea and all the guys at that gym, you
6:31
know, they would just go in and fight every day. They, you know, they would just hit the
6:34
timer or put their big gloves on and just fight. Whereas now you'll have guys like Max Holloway,
6:39
one of the best fighters on the planet. He doesn't even spar according to him in between
6:42
fights. He doesn't spar. He just trains because he's wanting to protect himself. And there's
6:46
all the scientific stuff around weight cutting. So let's talk about those early days. Like,
6:50
you know, when did you decide, no, I'm going to actually lock myself on a cage with another
6:54
human being and fight them. How did that get booked? What were the rules? Take me through
6:57
that.
6:58
Yeah. Well, so you're, you're right. And in the beginning, it was so on, there was not
7:04
structure to the training to the fight, fight organizations, nothing. So I just started
7:12
training and like, I feel like I was kind of pushed into every step of the way. So in
7:18
other words, when I start, I started fighting. I actually, my first fight, I was pushed into
7:27
it. It was a gym fight. And one of my guys I trained with, first I trained at a jujitsu
7:35
school that also taught karate. And so kind of from the beginning, I knew I wanted to be
7:41
able to fight on my feet and on the ground. And so this my teammate was going to fight.
7:50
And my instructor just said, Hey, what do you think about doing it with him? And this
7:54
was just, you know, I'd only been training a couple of years. And I was kind of like,
7:58
I don't know if I'm, I don't think I'm ready. And he was like, no, you're ready. And so
8:02
he kind of pushed me into that. And it was a, it was a gym fight. Like we went to another
8:07
gym and we had kind of just guys you would pick from and you'd fight them. And, and so
8:14
that, that got me into it. And then I started fighting locally. And then there was the boss
8:23
root and invitational, which was at the time it was kind of the, the door into the UFC.
8:31
And so I fought that. And I won, I think as boss root and invitational number four, I
8:38
fought and, and basically the guy, John Paredy used to be the matchmaker. And he wasn't there
8:46
that day. He, he, for whatever reason, he didn't make it. But there was somebody there from
8:52
pancreas over in Japan. So they asked me like, Hey, I can manage you and get you fights over
9:00
in Japan. So that, that was kind of the initial road that I took. I fought over in Japan for
9:06
six years. And then from two in 2005, so 99 until 2005, I fought in Japan. And then later
9:15
in 2005, I had my first UFC fight. And actually, how I got in the UFC was kind of funny too,
9:23
because I was training at Jackson's for about a year. And then there was a grappling turn
9:30
amount out in Las Vegas. And my wife saw Dana White. And she's like, why don't you go talk
9:38
to him? And I was kind of like, I don't know. She's like, no, no, go talk to him. You want
9:42
to fight in the UFC? So I went down and just talked to him like, Hey, you know, I want
9:45
to fight in the UFC. And he's like, okay, yeah, how much you wait? And all right. So
9:50
I got the ball rolling. I have so many questions. The first question is, is you graduated high
9:56
school at 135 pounds, but then you're fighting welterweight middleweight. And you look, you
10:01
look like you're over two bills right now. How in the world did you did you just have
10:05
like a late, you know, growth spurt or something like that? Like, because I mean, you weren't
10:10
like short either. Like you were, but you turned in kind of like a really stocky fighter.
10:15
So when did you start to really put on weight? Well, yeah, so there's multiple things. Number
10:20
one, I'm, I'm only 190 pounds right now. I've, I've always kind of looked a little bit bigger
10:24
than I weigh actually skinny waist, skinny legs maybe. And so okay. So that's one thing.
10:34
So I graduated 135. And I remember I'd been lifting weights for like a year or something
10:42
after high school. And I put it put on, you know, 15 pounds or something. And so, so like
10:51
150 basically. And I had my first fight over Japan. And I actually lost my first fight
11:00
over there, but I fought really well and they invited me back for the tournament to to crown
11:05
the first middleweight champion. Now middleweight over there, I think was 181 pounds because
11:11
they would go on kilos. And so I fought the first fight of the tournament was let's, you
11:20
know, it was like in May or something of 90 or a yeah, 2000 sorry, 2000. And so I fought
11:27
that fight and I won. And again, I was outsized by my opponent. He was like, I was probably
11:35
at the point, maybe, maybe 150. And then I fought the next fight was four months later,
11:45
the semifinals and the finals were on the same night. And in that time, first of all,
11:51
I went when I started fighting Japan, I was five foot 11. I grew an inch and just eating
11:59
and getting the rest that I actually needed over there in Japan, basically becoming a
12:04
full time fighter at that point. And I only trained once a day over there, but we trained
12:09
for, you know, a solid two hours. And I just ate all the time. And I gained 15 pounds and
12:16
like, I was just solid muscle in about four months. And so that was kind of the star of
12:22
it. And I, you know, I realized if I'm going to be fighting middleweight, I need to keep
12:26
trying to put the weight on so I'm not always undersized. But really, it's funny because
12:32
people have always said through my career that I was one of the bigger middleweights.
12:36
And that was actually, that was never true. I just never responded because I kind of wanted
12:41
them to think that because I didn't want them to think, Oh yeah, he's actually small. I,
12:47
I usually like a lot of my fights, I didn't cut anyway. Or I cut like four pounds. People
12:53
would see me at the buffet, like the night before we ends and they'd be like, what are
12:57
you doing? They just couldn't believe it.
12:59
Okay. So, so that's really funny to me because weight cutting is obviously a big deal, but
13:04
probably the most extreme example that I can think of is a guy like Joelle Romero to walk
13:09
around looking like Adonis. And whenever he cut to 185, he's fighting a light heavyweight
13:15
now. But when he cut to 185 middleweight, it was like, how you're looking at him on the
13:19
scale and you're like, my eyes can't believe what the scale is telling telling me. And it's
13:24
like, cause he just everything's thick, like thick bones. He has no neck and kind of the
13:28
whole deal. And then you have a guy like Alex Bajeda in the UFC right now that walks around
13:33
at probably 220 to 30 was cutting down to 185. So we would have to start his weight cut.
13:39
Like four weeks ahead of the weigh in. And now he's fighting in 205. And even at 205,
13:44
he fought a 205, you know, a little while back in beat Yom Bajovic. So we weighed in at 205.
13:51
And then he ballooned up to 225 by fight night. So I guess for you, talk me through that a
13:56
little bit because weight cutting is one of the things that if you were in the first few
14:01
years at MMA and you had to predict the future and be like, Hey, at the 30th anniversary of
14:05
the UFC, here's the new stuff that they're going to add. Here's the stuff that they're
14:09
going to take away. And you said, yeah, they're probably going to take away extreme weight
14:12
cutting. That probably would have been at the tippy top of the list of things. It's like,
14:15
okay, they're going to get this figured out. This weight cutting thing is ridiculous. Guys
14:19
are, you know, they look like skeletons on the scale, doesn't help them fight. It dehydrates
14:23
the brain, make some easier to get knocked out. They're more chinny. Talk to me about
14:27
the whole weight cutting thing because I didn't know that about you. I thought you were just
14:30
this enormous guy that sucked all the water out of your body in the last like few hours
14:35
before weigh in. But that wasn't the case. But I guess what are your thoughts on weight
14:39
cutting?
14:40
Well, I think, I think there's definitely you, there's a way to do it that's healthy.
14:49
But there's a way to do it. I think that most guys do that's that's really it really hinders
14:54
their performance, I believe. And like you said, it makes them chinny. I noticed that
14:59
cutting down to 170. I did that for three, three fights. And it was it was definitely
15:06
real. It's like, you could just get flash, knockdown for no reason. It seems like an.
15:17
So I think it's a huto and TJ Jillshaw. When when TJ tried to go down to 25 to fly weight
15:22
to fight, so huto, like he didn't get hit with an enormous shot early in the fight. But
15:28
it was enough to just, I mean, put him down and the fight was over. You know, yeah. And
15:33
yeah, there's nothing you can do about that. So, but I think, I think fighters should try
15:41
to fight closer to their natural weight personally. For sure. Yeah, if you can show up in your
15:48
bigger and stronger and heavier than your opponent without, you know, killing yourself
15:54
and without dehydrating yourself so much that you're going to show up dehydrated, then it's
16:01
not a problem. But but I think as a general rule, I think it's safer and it's going to
16:09
help your longevity if you can fight closer to your natural weight.
16:13
Yeah, I think there's some wisdom in that. I remember Frankie Edgar around the time when
16:18
he fought BJ for the first time, you know, a lot was made that was that lightweight. That
16:22
was at 155 pounds. And so I forget, you know, how long ago that was, it was over 10 years
16:27
ago. But you know, that was a big thing. Oh, he just kind of walks around that weight and
16:31
he was a great 155 pound champion who weighed about 157 pounds. But then now you look at
16:37
guys like Habib or Islam or Michael Chandler Dustin, these are huge human beings cutting
16:45
to 155. So that's why like in the latter stages of Frankie's career, he ended up at 135 at
16:52
Bantamweight because it's like, you know, he just couldn't possibly like, can you imagine
16:57
the Frankie that fought BJ the first time and beat him and took the title fighting Habib
17:03
or Magamet off. Like dude, like there, there'd be like two completely different human beings.
17:08
Now a lot's been said to about the whole weight thing and then we'll move off the weight cutting
17:12
about adding weight classes, because obviously for men, it's 125, 135, 145, 155, then there's
17:19
a jump to 170, which is well to weight, then there's 185 and other jump are, and then there's
17:24
a huge jump to 205 for light heavyweight. And then there's heavyweight with a limit of 265.
17:30
People think heavyweight should have no limit. So a guy like Bob Sapp or someone like that
17:34
should be able to fight, you know, John Jones or something like that. But then it would make
17:38
sense to have a 65, then a 75, then an 85, then a 205 and then just like a super max,
17:46
you know, a type of thing, like even like jujitsu tournaments, you can have guys that
17:49
weigh 400 pounds in the absolute going against much smaller guys. Do you like the idea of
17:55
more weight classes? Do you feel like guys would maybe try to jump around too much or
18:00
something like that? Is there is a good argument against it?
18:04
I don't think there's a good argument against I think it's safer for the fighters. Again,
18:10
they're not going to try to make such a big jump, just so that they can be not be outsized.
18:17
Like you said, I think it's, and I don't, I, to me, it seems like it's a positive thing
18:23
because you're going to have more belts, which means more super fights and more main event
18:29
fights. So to me, it makes sense. It certainly makes sense. I do want to go all the way back
18:36
to the boss root and invitational, boss root and invitational number four, because people
18:41
that were not born in the 1900s, they look at modern MMA and they see these guys, they
18:47
see champions Nate, that'll fight twice a year, right? In 1999 alone, the first year
18:53
that you competed, I think you fought seven times in one year. And think about it this
18:57
way too. Cowboys, Saroni is considered a legend now because he fought like five times
19:01
in one year once. You know what I mean? It's like, Oh, Capitol will fight. He'll fight
19:06
any time anywhere. And you know, he'll fight on short notice. And yeah, he is cool for
19:11
doing that. But going back to the boss root and invitational, you fought three times in
19:15
one day, three times in one day. And one of those was against Eve Edwards when you all
19:20
were both early in your career. So that's a nice feather in your cap. But talk to me
19:24
about that because you fought in both eras, the era of specialization where you were an
19:29
active fighter, quote unquote, if he fought three times a year. And you were also there
19:33
at the very beginning stages where if you wanted to get the check and the trophy and
19:38
the accolades, you had to fight and win three times in one night. So take me through that
19:42
because now it sounds, you know, like cruel than usual punishment, but that's just the
19:46
way it was.
19:47
No, to me, I mean, that's the sport I signed up for, to be honest, was the you know, when
19:53
I started, they called it valetuto or they didn't even have where they weren't settled
19:57
on the name mixed martial arts. So you had now they call valetuto is that with where you
20:03
can headbutt and do soccer kicks and stuff like that. And yeah, and that's that was what
20:08
I wanted to do. Multiple fights in one night, no weight classes. So I mean, to me it's and
20:21
no time limits, you know, but it's I understand it had to go the way it has gone to make it
20:28
popular to make it to bring it to where it is now, because you can't watch one hour fights
20:34
on on pay per view, you know, right? Yeah, they tried that one time, I think in a soccer
20:42
raba and one of the Gracie's hoist Gracie, and went like they ran out of time on that.
20:48
It's awful. Yeah, awful. Yeah. And they turn out to be boring a lot of times too, because
20:54
guys are just resting because they're fighting for an hour. So yeah, but I so I think I don't
21:01
know I love that aspect of it. I love even no gloves that doesn't bother me. The gloves
21:10
are nice because it does it doesn't guys don't bleed as much. And you protect your hands more
21:16
because you can tape your hands better and and protect your knuckles. But yeah, it's definitely
21:23
it's a different animal to fight multiple fights in one night and no way limit no time
21:28
limits stuff like that. So obviously you fought in the modern era where you know, you're going
21:34
to do three fives or five fives depending upon, you know, whether it was a main event or a
21:39
championship fight or something like that. So you know that you've been trained and you
21:43
did, you know, what would you do six six week camps a week camps? How long were your camps?
21:47
Yeah, eight 12 week, but I don't know my my philosophy changed over the years. I would
21:55
say now 12 week would be good, but you have to periodize it to where you're having like
22:00
every fourth week is a recovery week. That way you're not overtraining. But yes. So you
22:08
do all this training. Yeah, eight to 12 weeks, you get in there and you know, I just got
22:12
lighted up for 15 minutes, right? Maybe 25 minutes, right? But in those early days, walk
22:18
me through how because because you want to you want to fight three times that night because
22:23
that means you're in the championship fight and you have a chance to win. But in the first
22:27
fight, they'll goes ding for the first round of the first fight. Or you know, again, it
22:31
may not have rounds. It's just ding. And here you go. Yeah. How do you, how do you put yourself
22:36
in the right brain space? Because some people would think, okay, try to get to take down
22:40
as quickly as possible, try to mount ground up out, like just do whatever you can to get
22:43
out there as quickly as possible. Whereas other people are going to be like, Hey man,
22:47
really pick your shots be super conservative. Like don't throw a huge combination unless
22:52
you know you can in the fight with it. Like, how do you kind of do that? Or do you just
22:56
say screw it? I'm fighting right now. I'm trying not to get killed right now. I'll deal
22:59
with later later. I think maybe a mixture of all three, the things that you said, I think
23:05
some guys would kind of lean one way or the other. They're more conservative or they're
23:11
more, you know, like I'm going to finish it in two minutes or I'm done kind of thing.
23:17
But I think everyone kind of had that mindset of you only have one fight. And if you win
23:24
that fight, then you get another fight. So you don't really think ahead because it doesn't
23:29
matter if you lose that fight that you're on. So, but I think one of the main things in
23:36
those kind of tournaments is that you're you're looking for the finish. You're not looking
23:42
to I mean, again, there weren't time limits in like the boss room. There was no time.
23:49
So you finished that. That's the goal is to finish them. And so it I think there's maybe
23:57
like I said, a little a little of both sometimes you're conservative because you're not you're
24:01
not going to waste your energy. But at the same time, when there's an opportunity, you
24:05
got to take it and that's that's your chance to end the fight and move on. So I think it
24:11
was really good because guys would really look for the finish. And when somebody was
24:16
going for the finish, that was really exciting because it's like that's I think that era
24:22
produced some really good finishing technique. Oh, and dude, when I have when I have friends
24:30
over to have whiskey and cigars and all that, most of the time I'll put on fight pass and
24:35
we'll just watch old fights from Japan, where you know, the first round will maybe be it's
24:39
the 10 minute first round like in pride. And then you add the subsequent rounds or something
24:43
like that. But well, let's talk a little bit about the difference between fighting in
24:47
Japan and fighting in America, because before your first UFC fight, you had like a close
24:52
to 30 fights, not like I mean, they weren't all in Japan, but you you had fought a ton
24:58
in Japan. You come over to America, you're I guess you come back to America to fight
25:03
in the UFC. I think your 30th fight was your first one in your UFC if I remember correctly.
25:08
So what's the difference between fighting in Japan versus fighting in America? Obviously,
25:14
in Japan, it's a it's a different kind of crowd. There may be a little bit quieter, whereas,
25:20
you know, if you're fighting in Vegas, it's just like it's insanity drunken craziness.
25:23
You know, a lot has been made about some, you know, the Yakuza, the Japanese mafia side
25:29
of the business over in Japan and some of the crazy stuff with there. But then there's
25:33
a lot of a lot of craziness, even in the UFC and a lot of shady stuff that happens behind
25:38
closed doors that people would never even know about that I can't really talk about
25:41
on the show because I didn't get permission. But just just in general, how different is
25:46
it fighting in the two different places for those different organizations?
25:49
Yeah, I think it's the culture. It's just a totally different culture. So you pointed
25:55
out kind of one of the symptoms of the the culture, like the philosophy, I guess, of
26:01
the culture where that I mean, they're they're looking at it as a sport, as an art. And so
26:11
they watch quietly to observe and they want to they want to see something beautiful. They
26:17
want to see a great technique. They want to see something dramatic. So they're waiting
26:22
for that. And then when they see that, even if it's not their guy, like they they're cheering
26:29
their they're they're watching it as as entertainment and for the technique aspect. And I think
26:38
in America, it's definitely a lack. I would I would say it's more negative. Not everyone
26:46
because I think there are a lot of sports and that they they do love the actual sport
26:52
and art of mixed martial arts. But I think a lot of people just want to see somebody get
26:58
a bloody nose and get knocked out and all this stuff. So they're they're looking at it more
27:03
for the the violence, right? And yeah. And so in Japan, it's actually fighting there.
27:12
There was a lot less pressure to win, which freed you up to go out and perform better,
27:21
like they just wanted you to perform it and do well. They didn't care if you won or lost.
27:28
And so if you win out and and you fought hard, you're gaining fans. It didn't matter when
27:34
or lose. In America, I think it's not the same. I think the culture is more like you.
27:41
If you lost, even if you put on a good fight, it's like, ah, too bad you lost. I mean, it's
27:47
not completely because like I said, there are some some more true fans that really understand
27:53
the sport and they love a fight even if their guy doesn't win or if you know, they don't
27:59
care who wins necessarily. Well, I think now you see a lot more people
28:03
because, you know, back in the eighties and nineties, it was a karate gym on every corner,
28:07
which, you know, as a holistic fighting style, not really great. Like there's some good kicks
28:12
and good stances and good distance control with karate. But now it's jujitsu. There are jujitsu
28:17
gyms everywhere. And so whereas, you know, drunken morons used to be like, I'll get off the ground,
28:22
just stand up all this stupid crap. They'll say now they've trained and they're like,
28:26
Oh, I've been stuck there before. Like I tried to move my leg that direction and it wasn't working
28:32
or then I gave up the mouth, you know, so we're a little bit smarter, but it's kind of like how I
28:37
watch baseball because I have a big baseball background and I've watched a lot of baseball.
28:41
So most drunken idiots only want to see home runs, right? Whereas like, I'm looking at how the how
28:47
the catcher set up to get a particular call from the umpire that's been stretching the strike zone
28:53
for the last two or three innings. And they get the strike call. Like that's the stuff that I'll
28:57
nerd out on. So hopefully more and more Americans will start training and realize that, Hey,
29:02
you can't just stand up unless you're Derek Lewis, because apparently every time he's on his back
29:05
and wants to stand up, he just stands up. But everyone else that's normal. That's not really
29:10
how it happens. I do want to fast forward a little bit in your UFC career. So you've been fighting,
29:16
you've been fighting, you've won tournaments, but now you're in the biggest organization at the time.
29:20
It was, you know, UFC and pride. And now you're fighting Anderson Silva. And so this was still
29:26
kind of early where Anderson wasn't really considered the goat. He hadn't gone on that super, super
29:32
long run. And so you had had losses before, but this was a loss in a championship fight. And you
29:37
know, we're enough removed from it where I hope hopefully I'm not bringing upset feelings. But
29:41
obviously that's a fight you would have wanted to win. It's a fight that didn't go your way.
29:44
Take me through after the fight though. I mean, if you want to talk about, if you want to talk
29:49
about the ins and outs of the first round and kind of what that looked like and kind of what you saw
29:53
and what you broke down in film, feel free. But I'm interested in what happens afterwards. Because
29:58
you have this huge build up, you go in there, you fight, you lose in the first round. And
30:05
a lot of guys would just crumble. And maybe they, they go out and have a couple more fights and
30:10
they lose those and then they're just out of the business entirely. But I mean, this was just
30:14
kind of that first kind of headline loss of your career. And I'm just curious how you handled it.
30:19
Yeah, I mean, it was definitely tough. Any losses tough. It's always, it's always tough.
30:28
It's definitely, it was definitely easier once, once I knew who I was, once I once I got saved.
30:37
But yeah, I mean, well, so, you know, that fight, it's, it's like we had the game plan,
30:50
it was working. And it's funny actually. What was the game plan? If you don't mind me asking,
30:57
because when I watched, it's kind of hard to surmise what, what, what exactly was the
31:01
game plan that you and the team put together? It was basically fight on the feet until there's
31:09
an opportunity to take him down and then take him down and control him and, you know, ground and
31:15
pound. So it was working like we were on the feet. I actually landed some body shots.
31:24
And he did, he went for a flying knee, I think, after I landed something and I caught his knee,
31:31
I caught his leg and took him down. And I was working on the ground. And I think it was
31:37
McCarthy. He stood us up. He's like saying, you know, you got to work, you got to work. And so I
31:45
like, I postured up to throw some ground and pound in his guard and he stood us up. So I was like,
31:53
really upset that he stood us up. I was like, I mean, I remember Joe Rogan recently or I don't
32:00
know, I saw clip recently anyway that he was talking about how he thinks there should be no
32:04
standups. And I again, I'm from that era. It's like, let's see who wins the fight. Why are we,
32:09
right? You know, letting this guy off the bottom. And but so I mean, it really upset me. And that's
32:16
the problem is that instead of just forgetting it and saying, no, like, it is what it is, I got
32:22
to go back to my game plan. I was like, I'm going to take this guy right back down. And so
32:29
it caused me to, you know, like a break in my concentration. And so I was on the feet instead of
32:40
working my standup that I had been the game plan, which was on the feet. I just kind of was like,
32:47
okay, looking for a takedown. And I caught, I caught one of his straight lefts. And I was like,
32:52
you know, it, it was a good shot. So I was like, okay, I just shot in rather than, again,
33:01
it wasn't the game plan. So I ate one of the punches I shot in, bad shot, hips up, head down.
33:07
He did a nice switch. And I got put on bottom, he threw a punch from the top and then
33:18
I, he was trying to punch. So I had my guard up. And he was like doing hammer punches kind of
33:26
on the side of my hand. And so I was defending. And then the ref stopped it. And I was, I was
33:32
upset. But at the same time, I knew I was like, I can't just stay there and not move and think
33:38
that the ref's not going to fight start to stop the fight. So I was really upset for multiple
33:43
reasons. You know, one, I felt like I could have kept fighting that. So I was upset. The fight got
33:51
stopped that I didn't move, but then also at the stand up. So I mean, it was kind of like,
33:56
you had all these things. And it really, yeah, just, it was horrible afterwards.
34:07
Again, because, you know, back then, my identity was fighting. Like that's who I was. That was
34:16
where my value came from. And so I mean, you know, losing that fight was just, I was in
34:26
unbelief. I couldn't believe I lost. I was like, I knew I was going to beat that guy. And
34:30
I could have, I felt him, I, you know, I was on the feet with him. I felt his speed. I felt his
34:37
power. I felt his grappling. And yeah, I could have beaten him, but I didn't. And in the end,
34:44
ultimately, it was it's for a good reason. If I would have won the belt at that point,
34:52
I, I would be in a bad spot right now. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have for my kids. Probably I'd be
34:59
divorced. Lots of stuff. Well, certainly get more into all that goes. But let's keep nerding out on
35:06
MMA. So I appreciate you going into a loss. But let's talk about a really, really big win. So
35:12
you leave the UFC, you go over to strike force, and you're fighting for the welterweight title,
35:16
strike force against a guy I think people have heard of named Tyron Woodley, who went on a nice
35:20
little tear in the UFC. And you win that spectacular fashion so much so that before we got on here,
35:26
and I was putting your, your YouTube channel link on to hear if you type in your name into
35:31
YouTube, it'll automatically go versus Tyron Woodley. In my opinion, not having watched every
35:39
single one of your fights, it was one of the most impressive performances, not just because of how
35:42
it ended, but because of what Tyron Woodley was at the time, and also what he turned into,
35:48
you just smashed him. Yeah, you basically just just ran right through him. It was a very,
35:53
very incredible performance. So take me through that new organization. Now you got a belt around
35:57
your waist. Yeah, I mean, that Tyron, yeah, he was undefeated at that point. And
36:04
I mean, he was and is a beast, like he is super strong, fast, very athletic, very good wrestling,
36:13
good boxing actually hits very hard. And yeah, you said I ran right through him, but I mean,
36:21
it was a scrap. It was a fight. I'll take that back. I'll buy that back just a little bit. But you
36:27
know, because it's not like you ran through him in the first 30 seconds. I mean, you finished it
36:31
late is yeah, I think it was the fourth, fourth round. But you know, it was, it was a good fight.
36:36
But I mean, I definitely was winning the fight, but right off the bat, he hit me.
36:42
And I'm pretty sure it just knocked like it. I'm pretty sure I just kind of trip because it
36:48
off balance me. But at the same time, it could have been a little flash knockdown because everyone
36:53
thought that and you know, the commentators like, Oh, knockdown already. And so he like hit me and
36:58
then rushed me against the cage. And I'm like, wow, this is a great way to start the fight. But
37:04
and then he's he had me pressed up against the cage and he had a wrist strap like a one on one
37:11
behind my back. Like so his arm went behind my back to the far side and had my wrist.
37:17
And so we had recently drilled like the escape for that. And I was like, trying the normal way,
37:23
you know, the correct way. And his grip was so strong. I remember I was like, this guy is
37:28
crazy strength. So I had to turn the wrong way to spin out of it. Like basically, I had to give
37:34
him my back to get my hand out. And and yeah, so but I think by the end of the first round,
37:42
I knocked him down once. And same kind of thing that the fight stopped. And really,
37:48
I think we just had a really good game plan. I was training. I trained really hard for it.
37:53
Very focused. I had great striking with Jake Ramos coach, Jake Ramos, my boxing coach at the time.
38:01
And we put together a really good game plan to keep the pressure on him and yeah, just just keep
38:14
keep the pressure on him. Whether it's grappling, striking, put him on the cage a lot. Actually,
38:20
I got to work with my old karate teacher, the guy that I very first, you know, I walked into his dojo
38:27
and said I wanted to be a UFC fighter. And so he became a play a police officer later.
38:34
But he was still training with guys. So I had him to the gym. And we would work like once or twice
38:40
a week coming up to that fight for, you know, probably like eight to 12 weeks. And he worked on
38:49
this combo on the cage where you get this you get head position, you grab his wrist and you elbow.
38:56
And then he's like, Oh, and then you can do the second elbow. And then so that's literally the
39:01
combination that I knocked iron out with at the end there was the combination that my karate coach
39:09
showed me. That's really interesting. So we're talking about kind of the big losses, big wins,
39:16
those types of things. But I guess if you look at your career, Nate, is there other than the
39:21
Anderson silver loss? Is there a loss that hurts, especially bad? Or is there a win other than the
39:27
Tyrone Woodley win? Were you on the championship where you're like, no, that was where I feel like
39:31
I was at my absolute best or are those two kind of like the the book ends of good bad of your career.
39:36
Yeah, I would say they're probably the book ends. But at the same time, I have a lot of
39:42
losses that really hurt and a lot of wins that were really spectacular. Like,
39:49
of course, I want to talk about the wins. But the I was just thinking, no, I'll talk about both. But
39:56
I had a fight. Well, my first the first time I won the belt over in pancreas, like I said, the
40:03
the finals and the semifinals were on the same night. And that I show up to the fight the sickest
40:09
I've ever been in my entire life, even up till now. And I was just like, man, I don't know if I
40:15
can fight. But I had these, what do you call them, like puss satchels all over my tonsils.
40:20
And I was sick for three months in bed for after that fight. I mean, it was like horrible.
40:27
So I fought the first fight against a guy named Cunyoku and then
40:31
Shoni Carter in the finals and just and it went to overtime. And it was tough, you know, so just that
40:40
that was a pretty awesome win. Just kind of going through all that, you know, and then
40:46
another fight I lost the belt to this guy named Cunyoku, that same guy that I beat in the semifinals.
40:55
He ended up beating me later on in my career and he took the belt. And then like a year or two
41:02
later, I rematched him and knocked him out with a flying knee in the in the third round with a
41:06
back and forth fight. I mean, it was a great fight. Had another fight like that with a guy named
41:12
Misaki Kazuo. Damian Maya was awesome. Paul Harris was a great fight. And but yeah, like the fights
41:22
that that hurt. I mean, there's, yeah, it comes back to a lot of times, I just didn't fight the
41:30
game plan. Chael Sonnen was one of them. I know I could have beaten him. It was, I feel like at the
41:37
end of the fight, I had him, but it was only three rounds. And and yeah, just, you know, Kami,
41:45
well, a lot of the fights that were close, you know, they bother me where it's like, I feel like
41:53
if it's close, that always goes the other way. And but yeah, I don't know. Definitely Woodley
42:03
would have been the best fight in my career. And then Anderson, yeah, just just losing the
42:09
chance to be a UFC champion would be the biggest defeat.
42:14
Well, let's talk about where you're at now because you haven't had a fight in a couple of years.
42:20
And so as far as I know, you haven't officially retired. You know, there are a lot of guys that,
42:26
you know, tried to extend their career. And especially in MMA, that can be pretty dangerous in a lot
42:33
of different ways because the reason why it's so dangerous for old fighters to be on like all
42:38
kinds of illegal supplements is because they've got all the stuff in their brain. They've got the
42:44
education. And so there's, there's nothing more terrifying than like a 25 year old in their prime
42:49
with a 45 year old's, you know, brain and knowledge of fighting like that. That's like the scariest
42:53
proposition. But when guys age, it's obviously the body that starts to fail them, the cardio,
42:58
the chin, the different things. So for you, do you want to keep fighting? Is that something
43:03
that you're still like actively in process to do? Have you called it a career? Do you want to
43:08
call it a career? Do you want to fight forever? Like, what do you think?
43:11
That's a good question. I mean, at this point, so I don't know if you've heard any of my other
43:18
interviews before, but I came out of retirement based on like when I got saved, I was going to fit,
43:26
I was going to quit fighting completely. I was done. I said, you know, this has been
43:31
my everything for however many years and I'm done with it. I don't want I want to follow
43:37
do what God has for me. And but shortly after saying that I had a vision, I saw a belt. And so
43:47
assumed like, okay, well, that means I'm going to be UFC champion, whatever. So but my, you know,
43:54
my career went the way it did. And and my UFC career 2017, I was released from USC and just was
44:06
kind of like, well, I must have misunderstood what that vision was misinterpreted or whatever.
44:13
So I quit and I was already in seminary at that point and was planning on doing international
44:19
missions. And later that year, so that was like, like I said, right at the end of 2017, then on
44:28
Easter day of 2018, I fell asleep and had a dream. And I've told this before on interviews and
44:40
so I had a dream. I was walking with someone and he said, you remember Abraham's promise?
44:47
And he like pointed up and I see all the stars. So I'm like thinking, of course, yeah, Abraham's
44:54
promise, he would have descendants as many as the stars. And I said, yeah, but his promise was
45:01
ultimately fulfilled in a spiritual, spiritual nature, because through faith in Jesus, we become
45:10
children of Abraham, because he is like the father of faith as the Bible calls him. So,
45:17
so then this person says, okay, what about your, what about your promise? Or he said, what about
45:26
yours? But I knew he meant like the vision. And I was thinking, yeah, okay. Well, I said,
45:33
I said, well, I would rather be a spiritual champion than a worldly champion. And he said,
45:42
okay, well, because you've chosen the spiritual, I'm going to give you both. And suddenly,
45:49
I became aware that I was dreaming because I knew it wasn't a normal dream. And my mind was
45:55
completely awake. I was still sleeping, but I was aware. And I was thinking, like, who am I
46:02
talking to? And I said, I said, okay, how do I know this is you and not just a crazy dream?
46:08
And he said, I'll confirm it. And so I woke up, went to my wife and told her the dream. And she,
46:18
I was like, what does that mean that he's going to confirm it? And she said, I don't know, but
46:23
if it's from God, you'll know. And I said, okay, so later that week, we went to a prayer meeting at
46:30
my friend's house, he lived about an hour away. And we go in and I only knew him and one other guy
46:40
there. And the rest of people were strangers. And so we do a Bible study and then we're,
46:47
they turned on the worship music, like really loud. So you couldn't even, you couldn't hear
46:55
people if they were talking, you know, and, and I was singing. And then this guy came up to me and
47:01
he said, Hey, I believe I have a word from the Lord for you. And I said, okay. And he said,
47:12
God wants you to keep fighting. And he kind of paused like that. And he said, and he said,
47:19
the good fight. And he says that you're a warrior and he's going to train your hands for war,
47:26
your fingers for battle. And he keeps bringing up all these like fighter warrior images from,
47:33
from the Bible and scriptures and things like that. So I was like, wow, I wonder if this is what
47:39
God was talking about. So I kind of talked to him for a little bit and then he went away. And then
47:44
I was staying there thinking about it. And then another guy came up to me that this is the one of
47:50
the guys that I knew. And he said, Hey, you know, I know, we know each other. So, but I had this
47:59
vision just now of, I saw a picture of like the movie warrior where these two guys are in the
48:05
finals. And, and I think it's for you. And like one of the guys, he went, he wins a tournament and
48:11
the other guy taps out. And so he says, you know, maybe is there something you need to submit to
48:17
God about? And I said, I don't know, you know, so again, I'm thinking like, this is kind of strange,
48:25
you know, to in a row about fighting. And but anyway, so like I kind of sit down and I was thinking
48:31
about it. And then another guy comes up to me, another stranger. And by the way, the first guy
48:38
who came up to me, I asked him afterwards, like, did, could you tell I was a fighter? He's like,
48:45
no, he's like, what do you mean? And I was like, well, yeah, like my ears, or did you see that I
48:50
look like a fighter? And he's like, it's like, no, I was like, do you know what MMA is or call
48:55
failure? And he's like, no, what's that? He had no clue about any of that stuff. So then again,
49:02
this I sat down after the second guy came up and then another guy comes up and he said, hey,
49:08
you're your friend over here asked if I would pray and if God would speak something to you.
49:17
So I didn't. And when I was praying, I saw a picture and it looked like you were
49:24
maybe wrestling somebody. He said, it looked like you were like pushing up against him. So yeah,
49:30
you know, and the same thing, I asked him the same question was like, do I look like a fighter,
49:33
you do you know what call failure is? He's like, no. And yeah, so, and then like later that year,
49:43
another friend asked if I was going to fight again, I said, yeah, I think so. And he got tears in his
49:50
eyes and he said, he said that I was on the microphone. And like he saw a vision, he said,
49:58
I was talking to people about Jesus and I was wearing a belt after a fight. And I was like, wow,
50:04
that's crazy. And so yeah, I mean, that's, that's kind of been the tension in my life for the last,
50:12
you know, since 2017 and 2018 is does God want me to fight? Or so I came out of retirement.
50:23
Well, basically in 2020, we sold our house. I finished seminary and we were going to move
50:32
to Thailand. We couldn't get there because the pandemic. So we ended up moving to Florida.
50:38
And I was thinking, okay, well, I'm going to do sports ministry. I'm going to, you know, set up
50:42
Bible study at the gym. I'm going to preach the gospel on the mat. And then I'm going to train
50:46
because I believe God wants me to fight. So I did that and had my first fight back. After four years
50:56
of retirement, I fought twice and I think it was 2020, 2021. And one one lost one. And then 2022,
51:10
I had four or five fight offers. I accepted them all. They all fell through. And so,
51:21
you know, that kind of made me think like, okay, I'm doing all this training. And
51:26
at this point, I know there's nothing I can do. Like I'm, I'm feeling the training more than ever.
51:34
Like, I can't train like I used, I can't, I can't train full time, like a professional needs to,
51:40
after I can only train once a day. And, and if, if I'm able to train every day, it's only once a day,
51:47
you know, and, and even that's just like injuries and it's, you know, it can be brutal at a certain
51:57
point. So I mean, at this point, I'm like, okay, if God wants me to fight again, he's going to open
52:05
the door and he's going to have to get me ready. But as far as what I'm focused on now is just
52:14
ministry and just doing what, what I believe God wants me to do. We are, we are going to be
52:24
renting our house out here in, in Florida. So basically we're moving again. And I believe that
52:31
God's calling us to Myanmar, which used to be called Burma, it's the country between Thailand and
52:39
India. And so I've been involved with a children's home out there. We started a Christian school
52:47
out there that, that's official, it's official, but it's not running yet because of there was the
52:54
military coup there and all that. And so I believe that's, that's where I'm going to be going. And
53:00
if I'm doing sports ministry, it'll be there. I'm also connected with FCA fellowship of Christian
53:06
athletes. So like, I think in a week and a half, my son and I are going to Armenia to do a sports
53:15
ministry camp there. But yeah, so I mean, again, I have no clue now what the, what the dream meant.
53:23
Of course, here's the thing, if God, if it really meant what I thought it meant, God can do it. Like
53:28
God, God is able to make me a champion. And it has nothing to do with my skills or my strength or
53:38
my athleticism, my training. So if that's what he wants, he's going to have to do it. Because at
53:44
this point, I know for a fact, I cannot do it on my own, I can't do it in my own strength. I can't
53:51
train enough. I, I couldn't even if I wanted to take steroids, I couldn't do that because it's just,
53:58
it's too much, you know, like too much pain. I'm done. I physically, I can't do it. I love training
54:06
still. I still, I still work out. I still wrestle and stuff. But it's, you know, I just kind of, I
54:14
don't have the mindset of the desire to, to win like I used to. And I mean, I love the sport of
54:24
wrestling, boxing, kick, you know, I love mixed martial arts, but it's more of a
54:29
something fun for me at this point. It's not, not something I want to do seriously.
54:34
Well, this is not like pickleball. Like if you don't take MMA seriously, it has
54:41
dire physical consequences. So, man, I appreciate you. I have so many other follow
54:47
questions, but I feel like it'll send us way off into to left field. I think I just want to let
54:50
your, I think I want to just let your story about that speak for itself, because that's very interesting
54:56
to wind back a little bit before that though, because you've teed it up obviously a lot at this
55:00
point. You did become a Christian at some point, your fight career. So if you could give us, I guess
55:06
give us the short version of that story about how you became a Christian and use whatever
55:11
theological language you want to use, because everybody has their preferences as to how they
55:14
want you to describe it, but describe, describe it how you would want to describe it. And then
55:19
describe the mindset shift, because I knew another guy, he was a, he was an enforcer on a hockey team,
55:26
getting into MMA, and then became a Christian. And I remember at the time, this is like 15 years
55:31
ago being like, man, I don't think you can fight. I don't think you can punch people in the face
55:34
for fun now, because you're a Christian. I think that's against the rules, right? And obviously,
55:39
I've kind of evolved my thinking on that up to now, but so you become a Christian and talk to me
55:43
about how that affects the fight game for you. Yeah. Well, you can punch people in the face for
55:49
fun as it happens. I mean, I do it every day with my friends, right? So that's right. Yeah, I mean,
55:57
that actually initially that that was kind of one thing. Aside from the fact that it was in my heart,
56:04
it was idolatry, that was the biggest thing. But then there was that kind of piece of like, man,
56:08
is this even moral? Is this something I should be doing? But yeah, when you look at it as a sport,
56:15
and you're not fighting with hatred in your hearts and you're looking at the technique and
56:22
yeah, any sport, there can be injuries, there can be things where you're doing something that's
56:29
going to hurt the other person physically to get them to so you can win, right? And that's-
56:34
If I can actually pause you there, Nate, I had that discussion with somebody else because they were
56:38
wanting their kids to get into Jiu Jitsu because they're like, well, the point of Jiu Jitsu is hurting
56:44
people. I was like, well, let's take a step back. You let your kid play football, like, you know,
56:49
you're training your kid to smash into another kid and to overpower them physically. And so
56:57
it's like, yeah, so for parents out there that are listening to this and they're thinking,
57:00
yeah, I don't know that you should put your seven-year-old in a smoker, boxing match with some
57:06
other seven-year-old or something like that. But you're exactly right. In any type of physical
57:11
altercation, it may not look like a fight, but there is a battle of strength using the body
57:17
that is applicable to what they're doing there, hockey, you know, there are others. So anyway,
57:21
I just want to kind of pop in there, but keep going. Yeah, right. And it can be used for good,
57:25
too. It's like, that's not the only thing is when you train, it can be used for good to defend
57:31
people and to defend your family of yourself, whatever. So, but yeah, so I'm sorry, I'm trying
57:40
to remember what the question was. No, you're good. This is what happens when I ask 17 questions
57:45
at once, because I can't remember what I ask you. But ultimately, like, how did you become a
57:49
Christian and then immediately what did that do to your fight? Okay, yeah. Yeah, so basically,
57:55
2013 was when I got saved. So kind of leading up to that, 2012 was the time Woodley fight.
58:05
And I won that fight and that was kind of on top of the world. And
58:11
but, you know, let me let me step back farther than that. So I grew up in a Christian home.
58:20
My dad was actually a pastor when I was young. And
58:25
my parents got in a big fight at one point and got basically split up. And I saw a lot of
58:35
violence and other kind of sin drunkenness and sexual immorality and stuff. I lived with my dad
58:40
for years after that grew up in high school with him. And we went to church every Sunday. And
58:46
so my perception of what Christianity was, and I hadn't read the Bible, you know, I'd been taught
58:55
the Bible, my perception was, okay, well, so we're forgiven. I understood that aspect. Jesus
59:02
died for our sins. We're forgiven. And you should try to do what's right. But you're always going to
59:08
sin. And, you know, the Christians I knew looked just like the rest of the world.
59:15
Right. For the most part, you know, other than maybe they were married or something. But
59:20
so yeah, it's kind of like, okay, that so now I understand that's what that's that's how I'm
59:26
going to live. But I lived that way for, well, I kind of actually went off the deep end at first,
59:32
went totally to the world and doing things like I knew were sinful. But then at a certain point,
59:39
I felt convicted over it. And I was like, okay, I need to start living the right way.
59:44
And it was at that time I met or started dating my wife. And we got married a year later.
59:55
And but the problem was my heart wasn't changed. So like all the the lust and the anger
1:00:02
from growing up and and all of the again, it was just idolatry, just like my
1:00:10
purpose in life didn't really have anything to do with God. It was kind of like I wanted what I
1:00:18
wanted. And then I wanted also to be saved and kind of have Jesus on the side. And and so that's
1:00:25
how I lived for years and tried to do the right thing, but what would always fail, looked at
1:00:33
pornography a couple different times, kissed a woman that wasn't my wife. And so like one of
1:00:42
those instances was after the time would we fight, you know, alcohol and things like that that kind
1:00:49
of led me into those situations where I didn't have the right judgment. And and so and then
1:00:57
2013, 2000 ended 2012. I lost to Torek Safadeen. I lost the belt that I just won. And I lost to
1:01:06
Jake Yellenberger. And I was at a low point. Our marriage was failing. We were struggling
1:01:14
financially because the IRS was after us for money that we didn't really owe. But if the IRS
1:01:21
thinks you owe them money, then you do. And they're coming for it. So I was very stressful in that
1:01:28
situation. And I just became very angry, became suicidal at one point, and got to the point where
1:01:38
I said, Okay, well, I don't I don't believe in God anymore. You know, I'm I'm done with this. And
1:01:43
every night I would take my little girl. I think she was three years old at the time. And I would
1:01:50
take her to bed. And I would pray. We'd read a Bible story. And I put her to bed that way. So
1:01:58
I did that for a couple of days and just felt so convicted. Like, how am I going to teach my kid
1:02:05
this if I don't believe it? And I'm just going to do it just to make her feel good. And it really
1:02:11
made me consider, Okay, well, if if Christianity is not true, if God isn't real, then what is real?
1:02:18
And it just made me consider the other options. You know, so I was really actually searching. Okay,
1:02:26
what is true? And I fell back on the point with no, I mean, first of all, I can just look at my
1:02:31
little girl and see how precious she is. And and I know that's not just me. Her value doesn't come
1:02:37
for me. If I'm not here, she's still valuable. So her value is intrinsic. And I knew it's like,
1:02:45
no, God made her. And I knew the sin in my life. So I'm like, okay, well, if if Jesus isn't real,
1:02:54
I'm kind of screwed anyways, because I'm not a good person. And so yeah, I mean, I just kind of
1:03:02
went back to my faith, but nothing had really changed. And there was a night I was with my wife,
1:03:13
and I just basically, well, I cried out to God and just was asking him, you know, to help me in.
1:03:23
And then I remember having all these memories pop up and kind of thinking like, that's weird.
1:03:32
Why am I thinking of this thing? And then this next thing and another thing and another thing.
1:03:37
And it was almost like somebody was showing it to me. And that, you know, at a certain point,
1:03:42
I kind of realized, oh, man, God is showing me this that he's been with me. And, you know, that
1:03:50
he's real, but also that he's been with me through everything. And I remember I jumped up and down,
1:04:01
and I was like, God's real. And my wife was like, what? What are you talking about? And so I started
1:04:06
explaining to her what was happening. But then I was like, Oh, no, God's been with me through
1:04:11
everything. And it just, I felt this conviction like you have to tell her. So the women that I had
1:04:19
kissed, I told her. And I was just like, you know, she was just in shock because first I'm telling
1:04:27
her this crazy story. And then I'm telling her, like I'm gonna quit fighting and then I'm confessing
1:04:34
sin to her. And then I'm like, but but don't worry, everything's gonna be changed from here on out,
1:04:38
like, like I'm done fighting. I'm not done chasing after the world and all this stuff, right? And
1:04:46
so I think God really protected her heart through with us all because she
1:04:51
she had a piece about her that she just kind of was waiting to see, okay, is this real or is this,
1:04:58
you know, is he just is just kind of an episode or whatever? Because, you know, here's the other
1:05:04
thing like people didn't know I seemed like a good guy. And in some ways I was, but other ways I
1:05:12
wasn't like I had an anger problem that that I hid because I knew it's wrong. I knew
1:05:18
like I would get rage, you know, and so I would hide it. But my wife knew about it. And so like,
1:05:28
I would punch holes in the wall and things like that. And, you know, basically throw
1:05:33
temper tantrums and scream and stuff. And so she she knew that side of me, then I was confessing
1:05:41
this other side of me. And also she caught me looking at pornography and stuff too. So,
1:05:47
so she knew the bad of me as well. And I was just telling her like it's it's all going to be
1:05:56
change from here on out. And I remember at one point praying, you know, really with tears like
1:06:05
God, I want to live the right way. But I've tried for years and I can't. Can you change me?
1:06:11
And I felt in my heart, like he said, of course I can. And literally, like I said,
1:06:16
from that day forward, he took that anger and rage out of my heart that I had. He took the lust
1:06:23
out of my heart and that idolatry of chasing after worldly things and chasing after, you know,
1:06:31
making life about me. It's just from that day forward, it's been completely changed. And so,
1:06:38
yeah, I mean, then you, you know, you knew about the vision and all that. But so that kind of
1:06:42
brought me back to fighting. But I was still but it wasn't the same because I had a new mission,
1:06:49
even though I was still fighting. It's like, I mean, I remember I went, I went to the gym and
1:06:58
wanted to start a Bible study like the first day after I got saved and, you know, people were
1:07:05
coming and like I wasn't equipped or, you know, I shouldn't have been teaching at that point.
1:07:14
But, but God used it. And then I went through some some really, really hard time, like a month later
1:07:19
and went to the hospital twice and ended up having, you know, basically I was being
1:07:27
demonically attacked. And I was hearing voices and stuff and people thought I was crazy.
1:07:32
And I was crazy, but I was like, literally, I was being, I was hearing demonic voices,
1:07:37
telling me to do things and making me question stuff. And so that's when I opened up the Bible
1:07:44
and read it the correct way for the very first time in my life, I read, I started reading Genesis
1:07:49
1. I was like, I'm going to read this book from top to back, you know, from, from beginning to end,
1:07:55
every page I'm going to until because I know the answers in here. And so after Genesis 1,
1:08:02
those voices went away because those voices that day, they were telling me that God doesn't exist.
1:08:08
They were telling me that, you know, if God, if God does exist, he's not all powerful because
1:08:14
of look at all the evil in the world. And then, well, if if he is all powerful, that means he
1:08:19
himself is easily because, you know, look at all the evil in the world. If he could stop it, why
1:08:23
doesn't he? And then it was also telling me like, well, you know, then it was like a, like a, I don't
1:08:31
know how to explain it, it's almost like solipsism, if you know what that is. Like an idea of like that,
1:08:37
I am God, like this is my creation and all this stuff. And so I read Genesis 1 and all those voices
1:08:44
went away because it's like, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Okay, well,
1:08:50
I didn't create the heavens and the earth for one. If God is like, only God could create something
1:08:57
out of nothing. Only God can create life. And so, and then, is he all powerful? Of course, yeah,
1:09:07
he spoke and the light was created. And then you look at everything he created was good.
1:09:12
Like he made the light, he made the sun, the moon, the stars, he made the animals, he made
1:09:17
man. And then he said it was very good. And everything he made was good. So you just right
1:09:24
there, you see the character of God in creation, that everything he made was good. And so those
1:09:31
voices left. Of course, we know where the evil came, you get to Genesis 3. And it's, you know,
1:09:40
the sin of mankind, the disobeying God and brought sin, the curse of sin into the world, into creation.
1:09:49
And that's why we have, you know, bad things in this world now. But yeah, so I mean, that's kind of.
1:09:56
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing is, well, while you're laying out there, Nate is like,
1:10:02
it's not usually as cut and dry as people would like it to be. And there's so much
1:10:06
human muck and yucky and just weird stuff that goes into all these situations. Because again,
1:10:12
from the outside looking in, a lot of people see Christians like, Oh, well, you became a
1:10:17
Christian and then everything started to work out. It's like, have you ever picked up a Bible?
1:10:22
Like things didn't work out very well for the followers of Christ from what we see in the Bible.
1:10:27
But also when you look at the early church martyrs, you know, these, these people that are just like,
1:10:33
yeah, I mean, I will sing hymns on my way to being eaten by beasts because of the sake of Christ,
1:10:40
because this is temporary pain, but I'm going to get eternal glory from the Father. And so,
1:10:44
I mean, there's a whole lot more that can go into that. The interesting thing for you, Nate,
1:10:48
is that you don't just become a Christian, right? You don't just make that choice or, you know,
1:10:52
God snatches you or whatever, whatever language people want to use. Like you go to seminary,
1:10:56
you mentioned seminary several times in this conversation. So I guess why go that route?
1:11:02
Because most Christians are just fine with, you know, going to church once a week or a few times
1:11:07
a month and, you know, reading their Bible when it's convenient and, you know, listen to some Christian
1:11:10
music when it's not completely awful. And then they just kind of move on with their life. I mean,
1:11:14
you went and took this super seriously from the jump, it seems.
1:11:17
Well, yeah, I mean, like I said, so I started reading the Bible. And once I read the Bible
1:11:24
and understood it, I kind of realized there are a lot of things that I believed and a lot of things
1:11:32
that I was taught that weren't correct. And so I, when I read the Bible, like every Christian
1:11:41
is supposed to be a disciple, like Christians, like Christians and disciples are supposed to be
1:11:50
the same thing. But American church has kind of separated the two. It's like, oh, you can be a
1:11:55
Christian or a disciple. So like the disciples are like higher level Christians or something. But,
1:12:01
no, it's like you're either a disciple, you're not a Christian is my understanding. And I believe
1:12:10
the biblical teaching. And so I, yeah, it's just like, what are we doing? Do we really believe his
1:12:20
message? If we really believe his message, you know, he said not to store up treasures on Earth
1:12:30
that moth and rust can destroy and can be stolen, right? But to store up treasures in heaven where
1:12:35
it can't be stolen. But what do we see people Christians doing? They're storing up treasures on
1:12:42
Earth. So, so why is that is because they don't believe or is it like what's the deal? I just don't
1:12:49
understand how someone can say they believe. Yeah, there's an eternal kingdom that I can store up
1:12:58
riches for. But instead, I'm just, you know, more concerned about, you know, storing up riches here
1:13:07
and making sure my kids know how to do the same and focus, you know, getting my kids to focus on
1:13:14
the things that are temporal. So I mean, yeah, like, I think to me, if you're a Christian,
1:13:26
you're supposed to be a full-time Christian. We're not just Christians on Sundays.
1:13:30
And we're also not supposed to be just like good moral people, right? That's not what Christianity
1:13:38
is. We are ambassadors for Christ. We're supposed to be the people bringing reconciliation
1:13:46
to the lost. And we are supposed to be new creations. We're supposed to live as a new creation.
1:13:53
And we're not supposed to have this mindset of like, yeah, I'm just gonna keep sinning. I mean,
1:13:58
that's one of the biggest things that I got out of, like one of the biggest paradigm shifts was
1:14:05
that I read the Bible and I realized, oh, I wasn't a Christian before. That's because the whole
1:14:12
time I know God was with me. I know he was in my life, but he, I wasn't a Christian. Yeah, like,
1:14:19
he, he was drawing me. I had a Christian, like, cultural, excuse me, a cultural Christian upbringing.
1:14:30
But I wasn't, I hadn't surrendered my lifetime. I, I didn't put my trust in him. I was trusting
1:14:36
myself. I was chasing after the world. Right. The Bible says friendship with the, with the world
1:14:42
is enmity with God, whoever wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
1:14:48
And so I, yeah, like the book of first John and, and of course, Jesus's words were the two most
1:14:56
convincing things that told me, yeah, I actually, what happened in 2013 was I got saved. I got,
1:15:04
I was born again. I actually put my trust in Jesus at that point. Because I think we've kind of made
1:15:14
this theology of where faith is just a mental ascent. It's just a, a belief that Jesus is true.
1:15:24
But that's not what biblical faith is. Yes, you, you start there. You, you have to believe it's true.
1:15:31
But if you don't do something with that, right, like James says, faith without works is dead.
1:15:40
And, and so, yeah, I mean, I, to me, if you are a Christian, you are a missionary, right? We're
1:15:49
on the great commission. That's where the word comes from. Like, if you're on a mission, you're
1:15:55
a missionary. So who was the great commission given to us, given to his disciples? What did he tell
1:16:02
his disciples to do? To go and make disciples of every nation, like baptizing them, teaching them
1:16:10
to do the things I told you, right? And what did he tell you? Like, he told you to go make
1:16:16
disciples. So you're, you're, you have to make disciples who are going to make disciples.
1:16:21
And I think that's, yeah. So those kinds of things, when I first read the Bible, it really opened my
1:16:30
eyes to a problem in Christianity, especially in the West. There, there's certainly, we can spend
1:16:38
the rest of the afternoon talking about problems with Christianity in the West. But I think for the
1:16:42
most part, it's a, it's a macro, it's a micro problem that's manifesting as a macro problem. The
1:16:48
micro problem is that Christians are not being serious about their call to make disciples.
1:16:53
They're, they're just content to checkboxes and especially like I live in Oklahoma.
1:16:57
There are more churches here than there are grocery stores and there are, you know, anything
1:17:01
else. And so we're a very, very church culture, but not a very Christian culture, if that makes
1:17:06
any sense. And of course we see, you know, the secularization of the West, the capital of W West,
1:17:13
kind of pushing Christianity to the fringes in very affluent countries, but then Christianity is
1:17:18
thriving in places where it shouldn't, if you know, as, as people might say, so in the Middle East,
1:17:24
in countries where you could literally lose your life, if you have, you know, a copy of the gospel
1:17:29
of John under your mattress, kind of a kind of a situation, then there's more that we can talk
1:17:33
about there. But I guess this, this last question here I got for you will kind of wrap up a little
1:17:38
bit of that discussion. So, so you go to seminary, you take the Bible very seriously. You're taking
1:17:42
ministry very seriously, you know, planting schools and I'm sure church planning will be part of what
1:17:46
you have in your future and all those different things. But culturally speaking, this, I forget,
1:17:52
it may have been two, three months ago, you publicly called out Joe Rogan for basically
1:17:58
being a fool. And I don't mean in his, in his entirety as a person, but when it comes to the Bible,
1:18:03
when it comes to Christianity, you have to surmise that Joe Rogan is a fool. He will say things with
1:18:09
authority and he has none on that subject matter. And every time he mentions it, he says things
1:18:15
like, well, you know, the Bible, we can't trust that this is even written down right because we
1:18:19
don't even have the originals and we don't blah, blah, which shows his ignorance about how the
1:18:24
scripture has been transmuted to us today and how it's been given to us today, how it was translated,
1:18:28
the number of copies we have. But then he'll ask these questions periodically. Do you think
1:18:33
Jesus was a real guy? Like he'll say that out loud. And it's for he's a very smart person. It's
1:18:40
legitimately one of the dumbest things a human being could say and not because of Christianity
1:18:45
being true or not true or any of those types of things. Because if you don't believe that Jesus
1:18:50
Christ was a real Middle Eastern Jewish guy that lived and died under Pontius Pilate at the behest
1:18:56
of the Jewish Sanhedrin, then you don't you can't believe in Alexander the Great. You can't believe
1:19:01
in Genghis Khan. You can't believe in Julius Caesar. You can't believe in any of the Abraham
1:19:08
Lincoln. I mean, you can't. It's such an unbelievable, a testable thing. And it's it's what CS Lewis
1:19:14
would call this chronological snobbery. Because it's like, well, we, you know, we have we have pictures
1:19:19
of Abraham Lincoln, we have this and we have all these accounts, but you could use the same
1:19:23
argument that he's using against Jesus against these other things. And so I guess why did you
1:19:28
decide to call Jordan how because obviously you're both well known names of the MMA space.
1:19:33
Well, why did you do that? And then I guess the other thing is, is, is, would you want to go in
1:19:41
the Joe Rogan experience to talk to him about that? Is there someone else that you think would be,
1:19:45
you know, hyper qualified to deal with that type of interaction? Because he had Stephen Meyer on
1:19:49
here recently. And Stephen Meyer kind of, you know, when it got into the apologetic arguments,
1:19:54
he kind of he didn't really go that far. He kind of stuck to the creation arguments. I think William
1:19:58
Lane Craig would be a tremendous person to try and get on that show because he can deal with
1:20:02
kind of the militant atheist stuff that would be thrown back at him. But just kind of take me
1:20:07
through all that. Yeah, well, so I, I, I chose to do the podcast. The first one with Joe, you know,
1:20:15
talking about Joe Rogan. Because, well, first of all, I, I did a podcast as my doctorate of
1:20:26
ministry project. So basically, after seminar, I started a doctorate of ministry program through
1:20:34
my mentor, Ellen Carr. And, and so, you know, that's something I never wanted to do was podcast or
1:20:42
anything like that. I don't like social media and all that stuff. But, but really felt like that's
1:20:49
what where God wanted me to, to do. And, and so I did that. And I chose that topic for the first
1:20:57
episode because I, over the years, I had a lot of guys, like asked me things or say things.
1:21:07
First of all, like guys in the ministry, even that were talking about Joe Rogan. Now I saw this,
1:21:13
I heard this, and I'm thinking, well, first of all, why are you, why are you spending so much time
1:21:18
watching Joe Rogan? But second, you know, it's like the amount of influence that he has. So,
1:21:26
I wanted a way to respond to that. I remember the first time I heard that he called it a
1:21:32
translation of a translation. I was like, so like, oh my goodness, I can't believe you would say
1:21:36
something so ignorant. But, I mean, I'm not going to go on the social media and say that in a quick
1:21:44
statement, you know, because it'll just, it's, it doesn't make sense. So, I wanted people to
1:21:50
actually know that no, that's actually, actually completely false, what he's saying. And it's kind
1:21:56
of, yeah, again, I don't even know where that idea came up. But it's been said over and over
1:22:06
throughout the years. But, so yeah, so you said, why did I choose that? And then what was the second
1:22:18
part of the question? Well, I guess, you know, would you want to go, would you like, yeah, is there,
1:22:25
is there somebody that you think that is like kind of in that apologetic space that could get
1:22:29
there? Because it's like even having Stephen Meyer on was seemingly a big deal. But that was the
1:22:33
scientist guy. It's only part of the story. Stephen Meyer, yeah, I think I saw part of that.
1:22:37
Yeah, I mean, so listen, if if Joe wanted to have me on, sure, I would do it.
1:22:44
I in my podcast, I recommended a few guys. Now, I would, I personally would prefer that because
1:22:54
these guys are experts, you know, I'm, I'm not like an apologist. That's not my expertise.
1:23:00
So I would recommend either someone like Jeff Durbin, who is a very solid, you know,
1:23:12
presupposition, presuppositional apologist, and very godly, very knows the Bible very well.
1:23:21
Or I would choose someone like Frank Turk. Yeah, because he's very just practical, can give you
1:23:27
very basic, like no brainer answers that make it very clear like, Oh yeah, of course, that makes
1:23:34
sense. And he, you know, that again, that's his job. He goes to colleges and does it everywhere. So
1:23:42
I think both those guys are would be excellent choices. William Lane Craig, he'd be great too.
1:23:48
He's, to me, he's like really maybe philosophical and kind of more like a Jordan Peterson type
1:23:56
guy, which, which is fine. But I think, I think someone like, again, Frank Turk or Jeff Durbin,
1:24:04
I think those would be my top two picks. I follow both those guys. And I think they have great
1:24:12
answers to cultural questions. They deal with all the cultural issues as well as theological and
1:24:19
philosophical stuff. Yeah, I mean, again, it's great to see some of the conversations that are being
1:24:26
had on his show. Because you know, I've listened to a lot of his shows before. And when you see
1:24:33
someone that that's that prominent, the one the one concern I would give to Christians is it's
1:24:37
kind of like the phenomenon with Trump supporters when Kanye West was walking around wearing MAGA hats.
1:24:43
Everyone's like, Oh, we got a cool guy. That's on our team now. I mean, you know, people aren't
1:24:47
going to be able to make fun of us because Kanye and then it's like, you know, like Ben Shapiro
1:24:51
said, live by the Kanye died by the Kanye, but you got to be careful there. But it's like, you
1:24:55
know, Christians, we want, we want Jordan Peterson to become a full fledged believer in Christ, right?
1:25:00
Not just philosophically open to the message of the the scriptures, right? We want a guy like Joe
1:25:06
Rogan to turn his life around because he's got the biggest microphone on the planet. But it's like,
1:25:11
again, that's that's not the point that doesn't mean we don't share the gospel with those people.
1:25:15
And that certainly doesn't mean that we don't hope that those people see, you know,
1:25:18
everlasting eternal change in their hearts and minds. But it does mean like, let's not get too far
1:25:25
far out over our skis, hoping and praying for Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson and you know,
1:25:30
anyone else and not praying for our neighbor or our coworker or something like that. So that's
1:25:35
just, that's just one thing I kind of wanted to talk about there. I want to say one thing about
1:25:39
the because you're kind of mentioning how he's very smart guy, right, Joe, Joe Rogan is very smart.
1:25:45
But then he'll just say something ignorant like that, which just it really points out the biblical
1:25:52
idea that things when it when it comes to God and the spiritual nature, people are willfully like,
1:26:03
you could have the smartest person in the world that will just become so ignorant. And it's like
1:26:11
willful ignorance because they don't want to believe. And so, you know, if I if I went on the show,
1:26:19
my first question would be like, basically, if if I can prove to you that God exists,
1:26:27
that Jesus is who he said he was, are you going to become a Christian? Are you going to give your
1:26:31
life to him? And if you ask him that, he might say, yeah, because he knows he has to. But inside,
1:26:40
he's going to he's not going to want to. He's he's, and a lot of people are like, they're going to
1:26:45
say, no, I wouldn't worship that God. I don't, you know, it's because it's a spiritual, you're saying,
1:26:51
if you know this is true, you're not going to become a Christian. How could you say that? It's
1:26:55
because inside, you don't want it to be true. And therefore, you convince yourself it's not true,
1:27:02
just like Romans one says that people know that God exists, but they suppress that truth
1:27:08
in unrighteousness. They don't, they don't want to believe because of sin.
1:27:11
I think you're absolutely right. And in addition to that, I forget where it was. I think it may have been
1:27:17
anyway, I don't want to quote it. I think it was in Psalms, but it was talking about, you know,
1:27:22
there's there's a difference between people that are simple and people that are fools. So a simple
1:27:26
person is maybe not, they don't have the mental acuity or capability to understanding a concept.
1:27:33
Like when it comes to quantum physics, I am a simpleton, right? I'm not a fool. I'm simple.
1:27:39
I my brain cannot fathom the things that they're teaching. But then there are people that are foolish.
1:27:43
These are people like a Joe Rogan that are very smart people that are intellectually capable.
1:27:48
But there's a heart disconnection. There's a soul disconnection to the content.
1:27:52
Because that's a very frank term question that you ask, which is like, if I could convince you,
1:27:56
would you, would you dedicate your life to them? And it's kind of similar to a question I asked
1:28:00
people before I get into debates. It's, Hey, if you were factually wrong about the stuff that
1:28:06
you were saying, would you want to know? Would you want me to tell you? Because if they're like,
1:28:10
well, yeah, if I'm saying things that are factually inaccurate, I would, I would love for someone to
1:28:14
correct the record. Okay, that's a person you can have a conversation with. But if someone's like,
1:28:18
well, I'm not wrong. And you're bigoted for even suggesting that. What do you even think about
1:28:22
yourself? And yeah, I heard this. And that's a person that's pearls before swine. Do not have
1:28:26
a debate with that person because it's only going to make you mad. And it's only going to make you
1:28:30
sin. And so like that's that's kind of the thing for a lot of people when it when it comes to those
1:28:34
subject matters. But but Nate, we've we've covered a lot of ground here in the last, you know, close
1:28:38
to hour and a half. I really appreciate all the time you gave us today, dig it into the MMA stuff
1:28:43
and also into the Christian stuff. And I think it certainly warrants another conversation down
1:28:47
the road. But for today, that's all I got. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest
1:28:50
before we get you out of here? No, I was thinking, oh, because you mentioned you're in Oklahoma.
1:28:55
My buddy, Dusty Divers is running for Senate there. So I want to give him a plug. He's a very
1:29:03
godly man. He's running in Elgin, Oklahoma. I think it's district 30. Okay, I'm from a lot.
1:29:10
Tell your buddy I'm from a lot. And so that's my neck of the woods. Oh, no way. Awesome. Yeah. Well,
1:29:14
yeah, Dusty Divers. He's awesome. I had him on the podcast twice. So very godly man, very smart guy.
1:29:21
Well, maybe you can make that connection because it's the Southwest Oklahoma. Things are different
1:29:26
down there. Okay. I know you guys in Florida and all your fancy places and all that. But it's a
1:29:30
different world down there. But Nate, Mark, thank you so much for coming on Daunton Life of Man's
1:29:34
Podcast. Yeah, God bless brother. There you go guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Nate,
1:29:38
the great Mark, but before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
1:29:42
Add on Daunton Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges,
1:29:46
spiritual, mental and physical resilience. So I've got a couple of links for you today.
1:29:50
I got a link to Nate's website where you can get to his social media posts and his, you know,
1:29:54
different podcasts of these got on there. And I've also got a link to his YouTube channel.
1:30:12
Like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to
1:30:15
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1:30:20
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1:30:25
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1:30:29
Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember,
1:30:34
keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
1:30:40
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.