Hi guys, I need to give you a little peek behind the curtain about a change that we just made. So, if you go all the way back to the beginning of this podcast, so this would have been 2017 when we launched, before the podcast started, it's like, "Okay, I need to have some intro outro music for the podcast." But even at the time, you couldn't just go into AI and talk into your phone and all of a sudden get this awesome music, you know, this was a billion years ago. And so, I had to come up with something that was going to be kind of the feel that I wanted, right? And as you've all heard me talk about a million times up to this point, I wanted it to be Christian metal, right? But at the time, like you would go to these websites that had this unlicensed music and it just it just wasn't really good. And so, I actually reached out to the band August Burns Red and I said, "Hey, I'm launching this podcast. This is what I think it's going to be, you know, I don't know if it's ever going to be anything. It's probably never going to be very big, but it'd be awesome if I could use some of your music." And JB, the guitarist from August Burns Red was like, "Yeah, sure, go ahead and use it." And so, for the first several hundred episodes of the podcast, we were using the August Burns Red music. And then we had to make a switch because, you know, we realized at the time, you know, I was trying to get monetized on YouTube and I kept having these issues and one of the problems that I was having is I was using August Burns Red's music, but August Burns Red doesn't own their music, right? The the music is owned by the label, the label's owned by some conglomerate. And so, I couldn't really technically get permission from them to use their music. And so, we switched to using the song Perpetua by Holy Name, which has been what we've used for the last uh several hundred episodes because they're with Facedown Records and I thought at the time that, you know, Facedown, they actually own the rights to this, they're the ones that gave me permission, we're good to go. Now, we just kind of operated understanding that or with that understanding, right? And then, along the way, we had been denied monetization via YouTube and then denied again and we had just we had applied so many times and we would get denied without any type of an explanation. But then out of nowhere, like a couple of months ago, we get approved for monetization. But then when we went looked at all of our episodes, we knew the August Burns Red episodes were they were lost because the only way you could monetize those is if you really like cut off the intro outro, which just of messes up the the flow of the show. But then with Perpetua by Holy Name, we were still getting copyright strikes on those episodes and it's like, "Hey, what what's the deal here? We have permission." And so we we went to Google and we're like, "Hey, we have permission to use this, blah blah blah." Even the label was trying to get a hold of YouTube or and just tell them like, "Hey guys, you know, we we we've given this guy permission and we want him to use this music." And yet, the copyright struck strike was upheld because I guess Facedown is owned by some conglomerate or blah blah blah. So it became this big huge mess. And so in order to kind of move forward, we wanted to make sure that we had some music that still honored kind of the vibe that we wanted to go with, but where we weren't going to get a copyright strike. And so what I was trying to search for were these Christian bands that you know, owned their own music, right? So that's kind of a new thing with kind of the new distribution that we have with streaming and social media and all these kinds of different things. A lot of bands now, when they're first starting out, they're not just trying to get on a label and get on a 360 deal, which you know, super duper takes advantage of them. They're just trying to get the music out there and so they own all their own music. And so there's a Christian metal band that I've liked for a long time now for a couple of years and they're they're still pretty small. Right? Yeah, there's not a whole lot of people that know them unless you're really into the Christian metal space and that band is called Void Awaken. And so they're a band out of Texas and there was a song, my favorite song of theirs is a song called Conqueror. And so it's got a very awesome intro. I love the outro. And so what I did was like, "Okay, I got to check all my boxes this time." So I actually reached out to the band. I talked to the main guy on the phone and I'm just like, "Hey, look, like I I want to make sure that we can actually do this on the up and up. Like do y'all own all your own music?" And so shout out to Karl Shedd because you know, we we talked it out over the phone. He's like, "No, we own all of our own music. Even within, you know, the settings you can say, 'Hey, we want people to be able to use our music. There's no copyright strike or anything like that.' So as of right now, unless something changes or unless YouTube and Google go crazy on us, the new intro outro music for the podcast is going to be the song Conqueror by Void Awakened. And I just love, you know, even hearing from Carl about his heart for this music cuz it's like, "Look, we just want to make brutal music that praises God." And you know, that just speaks to everything in my heart. But I did want to go ahead and just read the lyrics to the entire song because you're not really going to get it, obviously, cuz we're just a taking a snippet from the beginning and a snippet from the end. But let me go and read the lyrics. Deceiver, you are the fallen. The accuser spewing vitriol, distorting truth. All the corrupt all to corrupt me. You're the progenitor liar, but I am more than a conqueror. Conqueror, get behind me, devil, for I am royalty. I am a son of the king. Your pain is what I desire for the wages of sin you have wrought on humanity. Your screams I long to hear at the end of days suffering for eternity. Know your place and slither back to the hell you came from or find yourself crushed under the weight beneath my heel. Your annihilation brought forth by the resurrection. Who do you think you are? I have been washed by the blood, so bite your tongue before you speak to me. Your pain is what I desire for the wages of sin you have wrought on humanity. Your screams I long to hear at the end of days suffering for eternity. How dare you speak to me with everything you've done? Your dominion of death beaten by the son of God. Burn in hell. Burn in hell. I mean, guys, maybe you work out or run sprints listening to Hillsong or Bethel or some nonsense like that. But my goodness, doesn't that just hit a little bit different or a lot of bit different? And so again, even at the end you might even hear the scream of burn in hell and you're like, "Wait a minute, that sounds really that sounds really mean and judgmental. Aren't you not supposed to say that?" So chill out, you know, turn your fundamentalist side of your uh brain off just a little bit and realize that this is the type of music that speaks to guys that are wired a little bit different. Guys that are wired like this cuz again, Christian metal music is never going to be super mainstream. This is not really something that it's for, but this is another form of worship music. Worship is not just CCM, contemporary Christian music stuff that you hear on Air 1 or, you know, K-Love or any of those types of things. There are many different forms of Christian praise and worship music. Christian metal is one of those. So guys, if you're listening to this, just realize that recently they released their first full-length album. So guys, if you're listening to this on time, they just came out like a week ago. So check out Void Awaken, Void Awaken. Listen on Spotify, become one of their monthly listeners, listen on Apple Music, wherever you get your stuff. So guys, enjoy the brand new intro outro of Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Mike, welcome to the studio, baby. Dude, thank you. I'm really impressed. Not that I wasn't expecting you to have a professional setup, but this is this is amazing, man. >> Well, I will tell you part of it is because I mean, when when did I come down and do your show? >> years. I mean, it's been maybe 5 years, maybe even longer. And so that was the first studio I had ever been in. Right? Like like a full-on studio that was set up in a room that was dedicated for that purpose. That was also the day whenever you had one of your meat missiles attack me, so maybe we can talk about that. Upon my per my request, by the way, which I did request that. And so that kind of like put it in my head, but to be honest, like at the time I was recording, I'll show you downstairs, I was recording in a closet. Like downstairs, no video. Well, yeah, I think it makes sense. I mean, I when I first started it was at my house, you know, just at a desk and you know, I I think you know, for anybody that wants to start a show, it it make sense to go full bore until you've done it A, long enough to know that you enjoy doing it and B, that it it's worth doing, you know? Um So, I I I think that's the natural progression and I also think it it helps you or or kind of makes you appreciate, you know, once you do get it dedic- a dedicated space to it and it's all set up then uh I think it it's just that makes you a little more proud to to have it the way it is, but Well, I feel like people now, they try to cheat the system a little bit. They try to like skip ahead. So, people will come and see my setup and they're like, "Oh, okay. So, I just need to, you know, how much did this cost?" And you know, how long did it take to set it up? And I'm like, "Bro, you don't have a name for your show yet." >> Yeah. Like, let's because, you know, there was a very small closet which is now in my youngest room where the closet mic was just big enough for me to come in and like, you know, squish behind and and shut the door and I would just have my laptop sitting there in a little like blue microphone from Amazon, like $50 microphone. That was the first several hundred episodes of this podcast. Then I moved to a larger closet across the hallway so that I could like bend and move as I was still not doing video. And then the other the next one was that little nook right there that you can see. That's where I would film for a lot of time. But, my light was the window, right? And so, it's like it would be like super harsh and yeah, it's like, you know, and if I recorded at night, I would just turn on the overhead light and then I mean, it was like I just looked like I had jaundice or something like that. >> Yeah. And so, setting up over here and doing all this, like this was such a progressive thing even when we knew like the show was working and everything was working. But, even like the the table, we had one donor that's like, "Kyle, like love the show, love everything. I can tell you got that table off of Facebook Marketplace. Can Mike please get you a table?" And I was like, "Okay." And so, we had Sour Next make us this awesome table. And you know, shout out to Landon uh who works for Church 11:22 with Joby and he came out here and hooked it all up and so, it's just like I I just liked seeing like the progression of this show, the progression of of your show, and things you're doing cuz I think you're on your what, third or fourth iteration of your studio setup now? >> yeah. And uh I mean, so for you even like it's not really a straight line path to go from the SEAL Teams to to doing like multimedia podcasting interview style stuff. And so >> Well, it is now. I think it's part of the part of the Buds requirements. >> Oh, you got to write a book and you got to have a podcast, yeah. Uh no, yeah, I mean it was certainly nothing that I ever um set out to do or considered doing and you know it's hard to believe. I mean, I've been doing it for eight years now and and you know, back when I first started, there were of course far fewer shows in existence but um you know, it kind of started with my the the first book that I wrote. You know, I went on a lot of interviews and and you know, was on other shows and I just got a lot of messages and comments of people saying, you know, like, "Hey, I I watched your episode with whoever and have you ever thought about starting your own?" And I was like, "Not really, you know, I and I just I just kind of brushed it off for a couple of years and then finally I was just like, "Well, maybe I'll I'll give it a shot." That coupled with uh it was right after Trump's first uh election and I remember seeing like the the polarity between the way he talked and conducted himself in those early uh campaign debates and uh interviews and stuff and and and as brash and kind of unpolished and all over the place as he kind of was. The one thing that stood out as he was brutally honest, you know, and even if you disagreed with everything that he said or or hated him or or whatever, it it was very clear that he he said what was on his mind. Uh and that was pretty up diametrically opposed to everybody else on the stage he was with and and he ended up winning and you know, to me at that time, if you it's hard to even think 10 years ago, you know, the the way our culture was kind of mainstream media and even within the podcast space or whatever. It was so politically correct and and it was just getting worse and worse. I feel like we've kind of come out of that spell to a large degree, which is a pleasant surprise, but so at that time it the two things were a lot of people were asking about it and I I realized that or it seemed like the public was starved for just honest raw conversation. And so I just figured, you know, I'll give it a shot and see how it goes and and that was eight years ago, you know, so that's always really been the the backdrop, I guess, for why I wanted to do it, why I continue to do it is one I I really enjoy sitting down, you know, with interesting people and and getting to spend a few hours asking them whatever I want and and hear their incredible stories, but also it's it's a nice outlet for me to um you know, kind of continue that uh drive I have to communicate with the public in a in a more honest and raw face value fashion. Well, now you mentioned having an outlet. So we started this podcast, that would have been 2017, so we're we're in year nine of of the podcast, year 10 of the ministry. And again, now people are trying to start a podcast so it can be a career. Yeah. I mean, eight, nine years ago, when we're doing this, like this was like, oh, this could be a a cute hobby, like a a fun little side gig. That was all I ever thought it was going to be, but you know, even going back, it's interesting you bring up like kind of what the the the zeitgeist of culture was around language. You know, you would get into these, or I would, I would get in these Facebook spats with people about important subject matters or subject matters aren't that important. And you know how it feels like you you spend all day thinking about how are they going to respond? Are they even going to respond? And then boom, they respond and then and then you just have to hit the reset button and you got to think of your well-crafted response. And I felt like me being able to do the podcast, I could get things off my chest without arguing with some random person that may just be a good an acquaintance, someone I maybe haven't even seen since high school and here I am, you know, doing this back and forth where no one changes their opinion. But I could think about a particular topic or philosophy or something happening in culture or in the news cycle, I could talk about it and then I could I could kind of like turn that part of my brain off and like focus somewhere else and then obviously we expanded with doing interviews and then the Forging Table, you know, the round table Bible discussion, we've got, you know, ask a pastor, we've got, you know, it well it was from the Senate with Mark Wayne Mullin but now he's in the cabinet so we're still trying to figure out what we're going to do with that moving forward but it it just allows you to kind of keep your mind sharp and that's where I feel like with everyone trying to get their opinions out there like Mike I don't I don't know what it is for you cuz I'm sure you get a lot of advice on how to build a show. But when people ask me they're like, you know, hey Kyle, I'm building a show, what's your advice? Typically my advice starts with you probably shouldn't have one. Yeah. I was like if you don't have something interesting to say or if you can't get it access to interesting people that will say things that they want to say cuz there's people with huge podcasts that suck at interviewing but they have awesome people that they talk to. But but it's like if you don't have some sort of unique perspective or a really really good creativity or voice behind something it's like, bro, there's six six or seven million podcasts out there like we don't need another one. Yeah, I I mean I I agree. I would say, you know, I I try to I would if you want to say live my life or or kind of a a fundamental principle that I I always try to adhere to is kind of piggybacking off of from a faith perspective of non-judgmentalness and and not just thinking of it that way but legitimately wanting to come across that way, you know, is because it's you know, to me it's like whether it's respect or love or judgementalness, what whatever is that it doesn't matter if I think I'm being judgemental or respectful or whatever. It's how the person is receiving it, you know, and so, you know, I do get asked that quite often and and my response is always it's cautionary, similar to what you just mentioned is that hey, it's a tough market to break into at this point. Um you you really need to have kind of all your ducks in a row and and put yourself in a in a potential viewer's standpoint is that if they're at a bus stop scrolling through YouTube, like what's going to grab their attention? What are you bringing to the table that's going to grab their attention that anybody else isn't? That's a hard thing to do at this point, you know, uh and and kind of the same advice that you give, but I also couch that with but at the end of the day, if it's something you want to do, do it, you know, um just don't put all your eggs in that basket professionally. I I wouldn't spend a ton of money. Uh you can you can go a long way with with angles and lighting and and understanding kind of the the basic principles of cinematic photography and get a lot out of them. You can use your phone at this point. A a new iPhone can can take especially like with the Blackmagic app. I mean, you can get production quality with one light, an iPhone and a and a chair with a decent distance to a background and and have pretty professional looking stuff for the $80 road mic, you know, and um so, just start small, you know, and check those two boxes, which is you enjoy doing it and it's worth doing, you know, and and so I I I try to kind of uh pass that on to everybody, but um but it it is a tough uh you know, industry to to continue to be in year after year and you know, I I imagine with you, I don't know what your schedule is for, you know, releasing content, but it can be a little daunting when you know, when you have to do it every so often from a an advertiser standpoint and you know, that the contractual obligations once you get to a point where you have sponsors and it's financially really worth continuing to do that kind of takes some of the fun out of it, I think. You know, for me at least it or it makes it more more work than just wanting to to do it for the the principle of doing it, but Yeah, I'd say for us we've I've tried to make more of an ecosystem as opposed to cuz we've had some offers to do some some ad spots and for some different things and I just said no. It was like, hey, you're just saying no to money, but I'm like, okay. Let's look at the the long-term sponsors of the show and the people that we worked with. Origin uh Jocko Fuel, Primal Beef and you know, we've had G seasoning and we've had, you know, uh we did some stuff with Dawson Knives. We've uh Mountain Tough has been a big one that we've done for a long time, but I'm thinking in terms of like, okay, so who is an Undaunted Lifer? Right? So if you you know, these marketing and PR companies they always try to make an amalgamation of who your audience is and then they give them a name and then they try to describe them, but I'm like, okay, this person's probably lifting, right? And so Sorinex, right? You saw my Sorinex rack downstairs, so maybe they have Sorinex stuff. Well, now they're done uh lifting, so uh they need to get some supplements in their body, so they're going to take in some Jocko Fuel. All right, they're going to get ready for work, they're putting on their jeans and boots. Okay, it's probably going to be Origin uh boots. Okay, they're going to have some lunch, what are they going to make? They'll probably some steak or or buff or some, you know, ground meat or something like that. Okay, so there's Primal Beef, you know, they're they're putting a knife in their pocket or they're throwing it in their bag or their work bag or something like that. Okay, let's make sure it's a Dawson and then they're going to jujitsu that night. What gear are they grabbing? Okay, they're going to obviously grab the American-made Origin gi. And so I'm trying to like and even like while they're in the gym, what are they doing? Like well, they're probably doing Mountain Tough, right? Because they're not their own trainer, but they've got their garage gym out, and so they just turn on the app or put it on the the television, and then that's what they do. So, like, a gambling site Yeah. or a shampoo, or like something, you know, something like that. It doesn't really fit inside of the of the ecosystem. And so, for us, we release, uh, minimum three times a week, Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday. And so, I'm not having to be beholden to a particular person. That's what we tell people all the time. I'm like look you guys are donating, that is the lifeblood of what we do here, right? Because, you know, guys can donate, uh, to the Daily Blade, which is, you know, tax deductible, but if they donate to Undaunted Life, like, you know, we're an LLC, so it's like there's no tax break. They're doing that because they want to see content like this continue to get out there. But, there's not some nameless, faceless they group that's like, okay, here are the products you're going to push for the next 3 months. Here's the script you're going to read. That's another thing, for my ads, I don't take scripts. Yeah. I'm like, tell me the the high points of the things that we want to hit. I'm going to make sure I use the product so I can have my own way of talking about it. I don't keep the ad to 60 seconds. I was like, I'll talk about this for as long as I want to talk about it. It may be two, three minute long ad, right? Logos Bible Software ad that I did was like 2 and 1/2 minutes long. And I just feel like it's almost like more people take it more seriously cuz I that's part of the differentiating point that's hard for you, even with your show, Mike, is like, how do you differentiate from other people doing the same thing, and can you continue to stay true to yourself and honest to what you're trying to put out there? Yeah, I'd say for the advertising, uh, aspect, I I agree. I think there's there's always a fine line between, you know, making sure that the show is worth doing versus turning into the ShamWow guy. You know. Now, I would I would totally do ShamWow on this show. So, hey, Mr. MyPillow guy or something like that, like, hook it up. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so, you know, my my metric is similarly, uh, in in maybe less of a uh, protocol, uh, fashion or or path is it's either something I have used, do use, or would use, you know? And so similarly like, you know, I'll get a lot of advertisers that I turn down because it's just not stuff that I I would use or believe in, gambling or gaming or you know, stuff like that. I I never do those even though they they offer it a lot, you know? Um So, you know, I I do think that that's important and and I and I think it it actually does go beyond just the the advertisements themselves. I I think, you know, your credibility is is not limited to advertisements only, you know? And so I think at least for me, I know like if I'm watching a creator that I like, their their content and they start doing advertisements for things, I mean that that makes me automatically think, well if if I don't necessarily trust your word on this product cuz I know you don't use it. >> Now I'm far less likely to trust your your opinion on everything that you're talking about, you know? So it is related, it is important and and but it is a fine line or can be tricky sometimes I think with figuring out what, you know, what to do and how to do it. Well, and so for you as even as you approached your show, Mike Drop podcast and all the different things like you know, you again like some people whenever I'm telling them whether they should or shouldn't start a show, it's like, you know, they they think in terms of seasons. Okay, like I'm going to work really really hard for 6 weeks and then I'll take 6 months off and then I'll do a season 2. It's like no, you just need to burn the ships and you're either going to do this or you're not. You're either doing it cuz you love it and you want to or you feel guided to do it. But for you like, you know, as you've evolved in as a podcast host or, you know, putting things out there, like what what have you kind of learned about your own style, about what makes the most sense? Because the thing that's pretty common about you can listen to, you know, Mike Drop from this week or a Mike Drop from 5 years ago is you're pretty consistent. The the format is pretty consistent and you're honest, fervent, um, you know, cre- creative take of how to ask questions or how to get something out of the guest, it's all the same. And so, you're not trying to reinvent the wheel because the algorithm on Instagram changed. So, like, how did you kind of like get into your, like, where you could run in that way? So, for me, the the kind of benchmark principle has always been, uh, I guess a couple of things. There there's not a single, uh, or a singularity as as far as that goes. But, to me, the the keys are, you know, making sure that the episode is about the guest. There's a fine line, you know, to like, I guess reconciling being the guy that's just sitting there like a robot asking questions and not having any follow-up versus, you know, there's some creators out there, I think, that it it feels kind of obvious that the show is more about what they think about what the guest is saying and whatever. And And to each their own, you know, everybody does what they want to do, but, you know, for me, it's it's always been that that kind of starts with I want to make sure that the show is about the guest. I want to give them an opportunity to to share their story, to answer the question, to give their take. And if it makes sense for me to add anything to it, then I will. If it doesn't, I I don't. The second part of it that I think is, fr- from my perspective, is very crucial to being a good interviewer, which is listening to understand and not to respond. You know, so, like, I I I'll never you know, when I'm drafting my outline for questions, sometimes I I'll stick to it fairly closely. Sometimes I use almost none of it. It just, you know, I kind of let the conversation go where it's going to go. But, also understanding that there there are points where you may have to reel somebody back in or, you know, kind of re-pivot back to, you know, whatever you were talking about or whatever, but, um, but I think it's the thinking through what they're saying and trying to understand what they're saying and not having some canned response. Like even if it's somebody I know is probably going to say something that I either disagree with or we have something that that that we're at odds with subject matter-wise. I I I never leading up to the interview think about what I'm going to say or how I'm going to say it. I I always let it come off the cuff even if I have to take a second to think about it as as they're saying or or whatever. Like I want to understand them first. And then I always try to have a very off-the-cuff, authentic, and and kind of organic response to it. And that that's just how I kind of live my life. I mean, that's how I talk to people. So, the way I talk to people on my show is really no different than the way I talk to them in person or you know, behind closed doors, a professional per- personal relationship, whatever. But Well, that was the experience I had when I came on Mike Drop however many years ago that was because you're you're exactly right. There are interviewers that you can tell that no matter who they're having on, whether it's a a media figure, a celebrity, a you know, a a ball player, or an author, or something like that. It's like, "Okay, how can I make this person say the thing that will allow me to hit my sound bite?" >> Yeah. Or they do the gotcha thing. Right, well, in chapter 3, you said this, but in chapter 8, you said that. Well, that's an inconsistency and blah blah. Whereas the way that you approach it and the way that I approach it is like, "Hey, here's the quote from chapter 3. Here's the quote from chapter 8. I'm having trouble reconciling how those two things can be true at the same time. Can you help me?" And I'm not doing it so that they will fumble over their words. I'm I'm hoping it's like a set. Like I'm setting them up so that they can spike it. But even for you, like you you've done a great job of basically kind of taking yourself out of the the middle of the circumstance and allowing the person to a- elucidate their point fully. Now, you'll you'll push back, but it doesn't feel like push back. It feels like this just is a natural progression of the conversation, which people don't really understand how much of a skill that is because, you know, coming into an interview that I'm doing digitally like I'm I'm preparing my outline and my notes as if they are going to answer it like a robot would. Yeah. Like exactly how I asked it, no more, no less. And then, okay, if they answer just all of my questions right down the line, there's going to be some sort of narrative arc to this episode. But then, you like you mentioned, some of my best interviews that I've ever done is when there's no outline at all. But then, you do just kind of get better at this over time like you know, for me like I can sit down right here with no notes in front of me because I kind of have an idea of of what we're going to talk about and where we're going to go. But part of that's just having a feel, but then just having, you know, so many of these under your belt to where it's just natural for you to do it. Well, I appreciate the kind words. I mean, I like I said, I I approach really everything that way and and two things I will add, like even for speaking engagements, you know, not that I do a ton of them anymore, but but you know, at the height of when the books were out and you know, there was probably a seven or eight-year period from 2013 to 2020 or so where I was doing a number of them. Even with that, I I don't have prepared speeches, you know, like teleprompter style, word for word, you know, I if somebody says, "Hey, we want you to speak for about an hour on subject X." I'll, you know, whether it's in my phone or even on like a 3x5 note card. I mean, that that's the gist of what I'll have. I'll have a handful of bullet points that's just, you know, I may say like, "Hey, I want to talk about this subject and then this subject." You know, and and have some kind of order that way, but I also am not going to speak about something that I can't do that with, you know, I I only you know, feel comfortable giving my opinion if if I feel like it's it's warranted from having enough experience to have one that's at least valid enough for people to to want to hear. And if that's not the case, you know, I've certainly had guests on because most of my guests are former military or they're law enforcement. There's a lot of commonalities that we have to where it's easy for me to to kind of go back and forth with them and and be able to do a lot of things off the cuff. If that doesn't exist, this is where I see, you know, some people kind of get into trouble with not having anything to say or or just kind of like somebody will give a a 2-minute really well-thought-out super deep answer to a question. They're like, "Yeah, that's great. So, tell me about, you know," and there's like no follow-up. And so, to me, the the second part of it is if you are over your skis or or you you really are kind of, you know, out of your depth in terms of whatever the subject is, have a childlike curiosity towards it and just ask more questions. The ones that pop right into your mind, the ones that, you know, if they pop into your mind, even if they're a really simple or or what some people may even consider a dumb question, that's probably what most people listening are having the same questions too. And And to me, that's one of my favorite compliments is, you know, I find myself a question will pop into my head and you ask it almost right when it happens. You know, like To me, that that that's always my goal is for the people listening to to get their questions answered and and for them to to listen um and and be, you know, entertained and enjoy it. Well, that's what a good host does is you anticipate the needs of your audience cuz, you know, the audience can't get their time back, right? If they buy a product that you endorse and it's terrible, you can probably work a way, you know, for them to get their money back or anything. But, if somebody invests an hour in one of my solo episodes or Bible study episodes or 2 or 3 hours to an interview or something like that, I can't give them the time back. And so, I think of my audience member as that amalgamation of a of a person. And if they were sitting here, if they have read the book that I read, if they were in the middle of the conversation like I was in the middle of, how would they respond? And the other thing that people don't quite understand is like reciprocity, uh proprietorship. And so, that's one of the things that I mean is I remember getting some pretty nasty comments after I went on your show for because of you know, we started talking about God at one point, we started talking about the church and all that and you were doing your normal thing where you were seeking to understand a person's position and letting them fully elucidate it. Okay, great. When then I had it was all from Christians by the way. Christians that were just furious with how I handled the situation on the Mike Drop podcast and I was like, "Do tell, what do you mean situation?" They're like, "Well, you should have said this and when Mike said this, this should have been your response. Have you ever heard of Christian apologetics and blah blah blah?" And I said, "I understand your fervor and all that." So, two things. Number one, how about you build up a public profile such that you would get on the radar of someone like Mike Winger to get on his show, get an invitation on the show, accept it, go on to the show, and then when he puts you in the same circumstance, you respond the way that you respond that you see fit. So, there's one. The second is when somebody invites you into their home, so even if it's a studio that they have in a space there they're renting or a space offsite, that's their home, right? They can kick off their shoes and go to the fridge with less awkwardness than you can, okay? So, you have to understand the situation that you're in. So, like if I'm invited cuz I have been invited uh over to dinner at houses where it everyone in the house is a Muslim and only one of them speaks English. And if I go in there and start demanding that they do things in a Christian way and to pray to Yahweh and to pray in the name of Jesus, not the the prophet, but the actual savior of the world, like all those things, I'm in their home, right? Now, there's an evangelism evangelism conversation that can be had and there's there's a there's a time and a place and an opportunity that you can, you know, help be a conduit for the Holy Spirit to do its work, but you're in someone else's house. You have to understand like you don't want to get into an unnecessarily adversarial position when both of you are still in the posture of seeking to understand, if that makes sense. For sure it does and I and I'll I'd take it a step further even and and you know, from a kind of a broad spectrum 30,000 foot view component of evangelism, if you want to use that as a broad term. You know, to me the the adage of you catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar, I think couldn't be more apt when it comes to spreading a message of faith or or frankly anything. I mean, anything that somebody either doesn't understand or disagrees with, the harder you you push and and salt and compete and >> Yeah, especially insult. Yeah, I mean, like like that's not helping your case at all. It's doing actually the exact opposite. And and I think that as somebody who grew up, you know, a pretty staunch Lutheran, went through, you know, the three-year confirmation process, went to church very very regularly my entire childhood and even into the first couple years in the Navy, found a church that I I liked and and kind of could feel comfortable in and and identify with, if you want to call it that. You know, first few years I was in the Navy, went went very regularly when I was in town. Um and then spent decades being kind of having completely flipped the the faith table upside down and walked completely away from it. Uh and now having come full circle and and gotten, you know, kind of back into the way I grew up in a much different way which I know we'll get into, but um when I think about having seen both sides, you know, I I know for me and for most people that again either don't understand or even disagree with it, you know, to me the the the best way, if you're trying to evangelize, is to set such an example that it makes that other person question why you are the way that you are. Like, don't tell me how good you are, how dedicated you are, how faithful you are. Show me in a way where, you know, to me it kind of reminds me of the way I think teachers, like, you know, as a student you shouldn't know what political side your teacher leans on if they're doing it right. >> Right. And and to me, I view faith in in very much that same way. I'm sure tons of people would disagree with that. That's that's my opinion is that, you know, from from experience, you know, what and and this is outside of of just faith. This is anything that I either don't understand or disagree with. Like, arguing about it and and telling me I'm wrong and that, you know, pounding on the desk and pointing out scripture and and you know, this is where you're wrong and this is how you can do better. Like, that that is not going to attract anyone. Like, you're not going to guilt somebody into coming on on to your team for lack of better terms. And and so, uh, you know, to me it like that that core component, um, it is really the that fundamental principle that I kind of use with everything and and I I wish that there were there was more of that. Uh, you know, within the the space of of faith and and kind of biblical studies and podcasts that uh, where I I do see, you know, a lot of times whether it's guys like Charlie Kirk or, um, I I do think Wes Huff does a good job at kind of work walking that line of being, you know, incredibly thoroughly educated and getting a point across without being rude. Yeah. Uh, you know, I think being kind and and having that is kind of the lens with which you project all of your knowledge to the world. I at least for me is a far more effective mechanism for getting your message across. So, I I try to do that really with everything. Well, the biblical mandate is to speak the truth in love and people have trouble typically with one or the other. So, they love the love part. The truth part seems a little pernickety. And so, they're like, "Oh, I don't really want to do that." And then there's people that are like, "Well, truth truth truth." And there's absolutely no love in the message. And let's look at Charlie Kirk. So after he was assassinated, you know, what I heard people saying about who Charlie was and how he acted did not comport at all or or register at all with who he actually was on film, right? So so let's look at something like I don't know how many more societal issues can be more incendiary and more hot button than, you know, transgenderism, okay? So here he is on a college campus. He has someone that comes up to the microphone. It's, you know, obviously a male that thinks they're a female. So this is a guy, you know, wearing a dress and makeup and all those different things. And the caricature that you got of Charlie Kirk is that he was going to start pointing and laughing and everybody in a MAGA hat, "Hey guys, guys, go look look at the weirdo. Look at the guy in the dress, blah blah blah." That type of thing. But isn't it so interesting that's not how Charlie Kirk ever approached it. And so somebody would be presenting obviously as the opposite sex and he would say things like, "Hey, if you if you don't mind me asking, are are you transgender? Do you consider yourself to be transgender?" Which is a very soft place to kind of ease in cuz you're not assuming anything even though you do have your own tacit assumptions. And then he would talk to the person in a way where he's seeking to understand the feeling behind the outward appearance, right? Because obviously this wasn't someone that woke up in their dorm room at the age of 20 and looked at their jeans and then looked at a dress and went, "I think I'm going with the dress today." This is probably something that they've been wrestling with for a very, very long time and it almost feels innate, right? And then there were people that just get caught up in the the the cultural zeitgeist and they they get caught up in all that and they're just highly gullible and can, you know, easily be swayed. But he would talk to that person in such a loving way and then he would always tell the truth. Look, you are not a a female. You are a male. You are made in God's image and God created them male and female, okay? And he would have compassion for them and he would ask for them to get help. And that's the problem with the speaking the truth and love part. Like even if you just look at the church, there are a lot of churches that love the love part and they just stay in the love lane and leave truth uh out there or only truth without love. But then when you actually look at the person who you purport to be the center of your religion, which is the person of Jesus Christ, and then you look in the scriptures as to how he acted around people. Like to to the woman caught in adultery, he didn't say, "Hey, it's no big deal that you're sinning and all that. I love you." No, no, he didn't say that. It was, "Yeah, go and sin no more." Like I love you. Oh, you you are a a daughter made in the image of the king, but but also stop doing that. Like you're killing yourself. And so I think that's the part that people really lose the thread on. I agree and I and I you know, again the to me the the overarching theme that I see and again I I think that you know, my perspective is is maybe a little different than somebody who's spent their entire life that way is I I've seen both sides of it. I've I've even felt and believed both sides of it, you know? So this isn't something where I'm I'm making assumptions on on how things are received or or what I think somebody is is or how they're taking it in or whatever and and to me the the thing that I I'm always reminded of or where I would say that I I think about if I find myself getting into a judgmental uh state of mind is is, you know, if we're all sinners, right? All all of us are flawed human beings and and I I am in no place to judge how anyone else lives their life, even if it's diametrically opposed to how I do it and I disagree with every decision that they make. You know, to me I'm I'm not going to overtly chastise them for what they're doing or saying what they're doing is wrong. I'm going to live my life in a in a way that I I do my very best. Of course I I stumble regularly. Um but to to exude uh you know, the the principles that I adhere to and and and just try to set that example and and be be the change or or that example that that I want to see, you know. Hey guys, real quick. You've probably heard the phrase ignorance is bliss, right? Well, some of you are ignorant about where the beef that you buy at the grocery store comes from and what it took to get to you. So, that single package of grocery store ground beef can contain meat from over 100 different cows, sometimes from multiple countries. And if one of those cows was sick or mishandled in some way, it's mixed right into your dinner. So, most people don't realize that some ground beef at the store isn't just beef, either. It's scraps and trimmings chemically treated with ammonia to kill bacteria and then blended in to bulk up the weight of what you're buying. It's legal, it's cheap, and it's on the plates of Americans all over the country, usually without the customer ever knowing. So, even if you buy what you think is a nice roast or steak, it's been passed from feedlot to processor to packaging plant, handled by people who will never eat it, and raised by farmers who will never see the end product. And in that journey, the cattle were likely fattened on hormone-packed feed, pumped full of antibiotics just to survive cramped feedlot conditions, and processed alongside meat from hundreds of other animals. And by the time it hits your grill, you don't know whose cow it was, what it was fed, or what's actually in it. I don't want you or your family eating low-quality, jacked-up beef. That's why I want you to use the official beef delivery partner of Undaunted Life, Primal Beef. So, Primal Beef is a cattle operation owned and operated by Shawn Glass. He's a retired Navy SEAL that partnered with Jocko Willink to launch Primal Beef. So, what makes Primal Beef different from other beef delivery companies? It's a combo of the following. All American Black Angus cattle, and the beef comes from one farm, and that's in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley. The beef is all-natural, no hormones ever, no mRNA ever. And after slaughter, the entire carcass is dry-aged, then hand-cut by artisan butchers, and then flash-frozen to ensure that it maintains tenderness, marbling, and flavor. And here's another cool thing. For every box sold, Primal Beef donates meat directly to a member of America's special operations forces through the C4 Foundation. So, you can take pride in knowing that your purchase will help put literal food on the table for America's finest warriors. If you're still on the fence, it's probably because you've been eating too much soy, drying your emo tears with your bangs, and you've forgotten what real food tastes like. Primal Beef can help with that. Try Primal Beef out today to PrimalBeef.com. That's primalbeef.com. Use the promo code Kyle to get 25 bucks off your first order. Again, that's primalbeef.com, promo code Kyle to get $25 off your first order. Yeah, and and I think it's interesting because, you know, talking about kind of full circle moments because you said you kind of grew up in the Lutheran tradition. Like, I didn't grow up in church at all. Started going on my own as a 15-year-old First Baptist Weston, Oklahoma. You We kind of had our different tracks. But, when you mentioned the kind of like the, you know, upending the tables part, like that's when you and I got to be buddies was around that time period. And I think this may have been maybe your third appearance on the show. This was years ago when you were talking about one of your recent books, and the God conversation came up, and you were pretty much you were like you had gotten so frustrated at one point. You're like, "Kyle, why the F do you care so much like if I believe in God or not?" And I I was just basically like, "Well, cuz I love you, Mike. And if I believe the stuff that I'm saying, then like, you know, destination-wise, like I would prefer your destination to be different." But I I remember this distinctly. I'm driving back Um this would have been I was in Colorado Springs for a speaking engagement. So, I got to spend some time with John Eldredge cuz he lives out there, and I did I had a speaking engagement. So, I'm driving back to the massive Colorado Springs Airport getting ready to come back to Oklahoma, and phones are ringing, and it's you. And Or no, I I think you had sent me a text, and this is completely out of the blue. We hadn't talked in a while, and you were just basically like, "Hey, you know, what version of the Bible do you like to read the most?" And I was like, Who is this? >> I'm sorry. Like, cuz I have I've got several people in my phone where there's like five people with the same name, and I'm like, "Ridland's kind of an interesting last name." Like, wait a minute. Okay, yeah, the I have previous text messages. This is from Mike. And I I I can't remember. I think I responded like, "Hey, if I could just have one, I would get the ESV Study Bible from Crossway or something like that." But then I said, "Hey, just hold off a second. Like, you know, uh let let me let me get some stuff together." And so I ended up, you know, getting a Bible together and sending it to you and all that. But like, that was such an interesting text to get from you because of some of the conversations we had previously. And I didn't really pry. I didn't feel like it was it was necessary for me, but at one point I was like, "Hey, what are are you are you exploring? Like, what what are the thoughts? Are you reading this so that you can like, you know, pound me harder the next time I come on the show or something like that?" But I mean, that was a couple of years ago now. And so like, you know, I'm just curious, what was happening at that time where you even wanted to reach out? And I I guess kind of where are we at now? >> Yeah. Well, I appreciate the question and and your response and the incredibly generous care package of of, you know, study materials, Bible, you know, what you sent me was super kind and and very much appreciated. Um So, I I guess from kind of the start to finish, you know, growing up the way that I did, first couple of years in the Navy, I was, you know, again, uh if you want to call it religious, how however you want to call it, living a life of faith, um when I went on my first deployment, that's when really everything changed. Is that I found myself, uh you know, and granted, this is in my early 20s when this is happening. You know, my brain isn't fully developed. I'm still, you know, not a particularly wise young man and uh just didn't have a lot of life experience. But I I found myself, you know, all over the world experiencing cultures that were so vastly different from everything that I was used to and and in every way, you know, not just culturally with, you know, food or the way they dress or different language, religion, politics, you know, the way they treat each other, the way they treat women, the way they treat everything. Um and and that's when, you know, doubt started to flood my mind more than I think it would normally. I think we all have doubts at at certain points, but um it it became harder and harder for me to to think or feel like the way that I had been raised was the right the right way for two reasons. One, it was just looking at kind of from a mathematical standpoint, I was like, "I'm in all these other places that are not predominantly Christian who, you know, there's kids, there's guys my age that I'm fighting that their parents were were Muslim, you know, they they've never really been exposed to to Christianity or or if they have, it's been, you know, shunned and and considered the wrong thing and you know, what makes me right or us right versus them and and then also and I think the much broader kind of reason that that instituted a lot of doubt was the amount of evil that I experienced and and seeing just how incredibly horribly people were treating each other in in some of these places and you know, and it made me really kind of question, you know, if if we're all God's children and and you know, he's omnipotent and and all knowing and and has the plan for the entire scope of the of the planet, why would you do this? Or even if you say, "Well, it's free will." Why would you even allow that? You know, not that God is saying, "I'm going to have this guy do this horrible thing." Whether it's Satan's influence or mankind's, you know, inherent bad natures, you know, stemming from the Garden of Eden, who knows. But the fact is is that it was impossible for me to reconcile the fact that this is allowed to happen. For a lot of people I think when they become a parent it brings them back into faith. You know, whether it's a circle of life, a creation of life, there's there's a a reset button for I think most people. For me it actually did the opposite thing. Um similarly, you know, I've got multiple kids as do you. And I you know, if one of my children had a 2 by 4 with nails sticking out of it getting ready to hit the other one, there's no way I'm letting that happen. >> That's right. And so for me it kind of further cemented that why would you do this? Um you know, type of thing. And so at that same I guess not at that same time. I didn't start the show until my kids were a little older. Um but over the span of the 8 years of the show and this is you know, kind of going back to the why which I think is really important and and I don't think is an accident is that you know, over the the course of that 8 years there's been a number of guests that I've had on that I'm sure you can relate to this is that the the second they walk in the room you can tell there's something different about them. Yep. There's an energy, a presence, the way they carry themselves, a a vibration to them, what whatever you want to call it, there's something that is palpable and really difficult to to describe but that's different and and I don't know what it is but I like it. You know, and and not in in any way really other than like it it feels comforting to be in their presence which is rare for me. You know, I'm not going to I'm not saying I don't like most people but I I I do find that I don't relate to most people. I I don't have much in common with most of the people that I that I meet day-to-day and and don't find myself wanting to spend time with them. In every one of these cases, every single one of these guys were guys that I was thinking to myself like they're they're competent, they're confident, they're capable, they're calm, they're kind, uh and if an apocalyptic apocalyptic scenario came about, that's one of the guys I would want uh in my tribe, you know, that that's one of the few guys I would want to hang out with and and look to for leadership resource etc. In every single case, without exception, and I would put you in that category as well um as well as one of those guests. In every single case, every one of those guys lived their entire life looking through the lens of their faith. Their their faith drove every decision they made, every conversation they had, every professional decision, personal decision, every single thing about them was well, you know, what what does the Bible say, you know, what should I do? Let me pray about it. And it it was a very slow burn for me. It wasn't like there was a couple guys and the light switch came on. It it was noticing it over and over and over and over and um it it got to the point where th- there there was an almost light switch moment of me just realizing like that is the common denominator. It took a long time for me and embarrassingly for me to make that that pattern connection um but I just I I started to realize I don't think it's an accident that I'm doing this show and and every single guy that's had this impact on me has been a man of of incredible faith and and very, you know, dedicated in their lives to to their faith um and and and there's there's something to it. Um you know, that there's there's a reason why it's happening. Um it it makes me want to to be more curious and and get back to a you know, a a point where I I I want to learn more and and I want to to get back into and and have a relationship with God and and pray often and and and learn more. You know, for me I've always been a a big fan of history and and for me that like where I'm at in my life now, just you know, being almost 50, um what I find the most fascinating and and probably find myself doing the most is kind of the almost rabbit hole research of the historical context that is the scope of the entire Christian experience and for me that it's been life-changing to, you know, read a lot of different, you know, denominations Bibles or um you know, watching interviews with guys like Wes Huff or um you know, just really anything I can get my hands on literature or video-wise that gives me a a broader understanding of the Christian experience um has been something I've become very very fascinated in and then fast forward to, you know, between when I sent you that message and kind of as we sit today, Charlie Kirk was killed. Now, if you had told me or asked me, you know, what kind of impact do you think it would have on you if Charlie Kirk was shot at a at an event, I'd have I'd have said, "Well, that you know, it'd be unfortunate, but people die every day and you know, I I like I wouldn't have put much thought into it." There was something about um you know, when he was killed that that I would say rattled rattled my psyche far more than I would have ever uh expected. Not that I was this huge fan of his. I you know, I I'd listen to a few of his events, didn't really follow his work otherwise. Um but I was doing a show that day and the guest I had on, you know, was a former Ranger, spent decades as an undercover narcotics guy, you know, spent his entire adult life combating evil. And when we took our first break, as you can relate to you know, the the podcast episode is one of the very few times where you're actually sheltered from everything. It's kind of like being on a flight with no Wi-Fi. Yeah. It's really the only time in our lives where your phone isn't going off and there isn't stuff on the news, the radio, or whatever. And so, when we took our first break, it was right after it happened. And so, we didn't know anything, like didn't know that he was dead, didn't know any circumstances. It was just Charlie Kirk has been shot in an event. Another couple hours goes by and now we find out and the video's out and and and and there was this very strange but powerful unspoken just gravity where he and I just kind of looked at each other, didn't say anything, didn't need to say anything. But there was just something about that moment that was really heavy and and I I couldn't really explain it. Throughout the rest of that week, I found myself thinking about it in a lot of different ways and and it just had this really enormous impact on me. And and by Friday, I was like, I have to go to church this weekend. Like I have to. I don't know I can't explain it. It's the Holy Spirit saying, go. Yeah. But that's what happened. And and so, I went you know, I found just the the most local church. I didn't do a ton of research as to which one to go to or whatever. I went to I think it was almost the closest one to my house. Um And the and the second I walked in, the song Oceans they were playing Oceans. Yeah. Which I had never heard. But between the you know, kind of passively listening to the lyrics and just the energy and just everything that was going on in the church, like I was completely overwhelmed with emotion. You know, broke down. Like I was just a sobbing mess, you know, for most of it. And um you know, for me for me it was it was just a very life-changing, powerful moment that it's hard to explain it. I I I know you know exactly what I'm talking about, but for for those who have never experienced it, you can't really explain it. And ever since then, it's just been, you know, something that's been uh at the front of my mind, you know, starting the day with prayer, ending the day with prayer reading uh you know, a a lot of different um I don't I don't even know what the word to use would be. I mean, not necessarily like 365 day devotional things, but just different, you know, this topic read this and this topic read that. Uh while at the same time also going really heavy into it kind of from a a historical reference standpoint of being really fascinated and interested by, you know, even prior to to Jesus being born, his life subsequently, you know, the the different pathways that different denominations took, why they took them. And and and that's been uh you know, again, just for me, I I'm I'm always a student. I always want to learn. And and that's something that I I really knew nothing about, you know, as much time as I spent studying the Lutheran denomination of Christianity as a as a child and as a young man, I really had no idea what I was studying or really even believing in and and no backdrop to it and and surprisingly to Or An Kedar who came on the show. I don't know if you watched that episode or not. It was a long one. It was like a 6.5 hour show. Having him kind of walk through from the from the Israeli Jewish perspective of the history of religion, the three main religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam from its inception basically and walking through from, you know, Abraham to to today and and weaving kind of that entire chronological timeline and there were so many things that I had no idea what he was talking about. Um and and that was another conversation that really piqued my interest for having a better understanding of of why the church exists, why these denominations exist, where did Islam come from, why did Christians depart from Judaism, how does it all fit together and and and so I've spent a ton of time just kind of really trying to have a better understanding of that because I I A find it so fascinating and B I think my personality of you know, to to believe in something like I want to know as much about it as possible and and take the blinders off and and not be so microscopic and to me, you know, strangely it kind of reminds me of jujitsu. It's like I think a lot of Yeah. people in in faith focus on the technique, you know, it it's this passage, it's you know, and not look at the overall strategy of what you're trying to accomplish generally speaking. Well, you know, and we'll get into jujitsu, but like you're using a particular technique regardless of the person that is opposite of you. And so it's like you're using biblical principles of morality because there's some rules that are explicitly laid out. Don't do this, okay? And then there's other stuff where it's more implicit like, okay, this is what a moral godly person would do, this is what they would avoid doing. And so there's a little bit more play there. But even going back to the the Charlie Kirk thing and I wrote down a couple I'm going to send you home with some more books that I have on the shelves of the library because Titus Kennedy is a great guy. He's a biblical archaeologist. I got several of his books here. He's been on the show a couple of times and I think he just released a book last year. I haven't picked it up yet, but it's here's all the stuff that archaeologists never expected to find. Yeah. That prove that this part of the Old Testament was real because you know, you get people that are like, you can't you can't believe in the Bible because it says this people group was in this part of the world and there's no evidence that those people live there. Oops, there's an archaeological dig and it's like, well, crap, those people were actually there. And so it's some of those types of things. But going back to the the Charlie Kirk thing. I think everybody understands exactly what what was happening with you because I just got off a plane and turned my phone on and buzz buzz buzz buzz buzz. Charlie's been shot. We don't know blah blah blah. And then a buddy sent me a link to the video which I can unsee. And And you know immediately what happened. >> Yeah, that is not a wound that, you know, is survivable. And but then there was a report that he'd been stabilized at the hospital. Again, it's it's the craziness of Twitter in the aftermath of something that just happened. And, you know, here I am on the ground in Jacksonville going to Church 11:22. Saturated is their big thing every year where it's Wednesday, Thursday, you know, Friday, Saturday and it's, you know, tons of people, great worship and great speakers and preachers and all that. And it's just hanging in the air. And you're right. I mean, there were people that had somewhere between never heard of Charlie Kirk to had listened everything he said or somewhere in between that all were deeply impacted by what his death meant, not that it happened. And what he was seemingly killed for, right? Which was the the sake of Christ and the sake of truth. And it was it was so heavy. Like Joby and I, you know, even had to record like a special episode cuz he was getting hit up by a bunch of people. I was getting hit up by a bunch of people. It's like, hey, we're we're in the same town for once. Like let's let's sit down and like kind of talk through this. But sociolo- uh sociologists have speculated that the Sunday after Charlie Kirk was murdered cuz he was murdered on a Wednesday. The Sunday after was the most highly attended Sunday church in the history of the planet. So more people attended church at some form of a Christian church on that Sunday than at any other time in human history. And then you go to Charlie Kirk's memorial services. And you could call it a memorial service or you could just flat-out call it what it was, which was a worship service. So, you have worship music being played and you had, you know, people from Trump's cabinet and tens of thousands of people in there, you know, praising with their hands up and in the prayer. You have Erica get up there and uh forgive her husband's assassin and you you had all these things kind of happening and it's coalescing with an absolute explosion in Gen Z, especially young men, in their church attendance. Bible sales across the globe uh have exploded even before and certainly since Charlie Kirk's assassination. And so, typically you can't know that you're experiencing a revival when you're in it. So, you may have been familiar as a couple years back now, there was something Asbury University, they had the Asbury revival. And so, it was like they were just doing a normal worship service and then three or four days later, they're still going. Like, maybe the spirit of God fell, maybe it was just an artificially long, you know, worship service, who knows. But, there's so many instances of people having profound encounters with God when they weren't expecting. So, like you walking into church and feeling like you you know, completely overwhelmed with emotion, that that's the separation Mike for somebody that uses their brain, their their logical capacities to surmise knowledge and to understand what to do with that information so that it can be directed at whatever action they need to do and somebody that has a profound encounter with the Holy Spirit. Because even going back to what we were talking about earlier, Mike, with people that argue and they're punching the blah blah blah, these are people that are apparently not reading the words because if you read these words, it shows you you can't argue someone into the kingdom of God. You can't even convince them, right? We can't even be convinced or prove that you and I are even here right now and this isn't a simulation of some kind, right? But, you can be a conduit through which the spirit speaks to somebody. Like I I talked about it Easter, this Easter service that I just went to, there was something in the air, Mike. I had walked in that church hundreds of times in my life, but on Easter morning something was just different. And my my oldest son was in service with us for the first time, and they started singing How Great Thou Art, and he just reaches up and grabs my hand, and starts holding my hand. I'm like, "What is that?" It's like I I felt like I got to experience a slice of heaven. Yeah. And you know, I I couldn't even sing cuz with every word I felt like I was choking on the word cuz I was choking on what the words meant. Cuz there are beautiful songs and beautiful melodies that are talking about nothing. Yeah. Right? But you you experience something so profound, but it's it's interesting, and I want you to kind of talk about this more. There are some people, Mike, and you probably experience this, they they they have that mountain top experience, or that church camp high, or they they you know, they go in that worship service and they break down in tears and all that. And then the rest of their life comes, you know, the dryer stops working, you know, their their truck uh they get a flat, or you know, they get hurt at jiu-jitsu, and then they're just kind of back into their normal routine. And so they either think that was just a flare-up. I don't know what that was. Maybe it was indigestion that, you know, uh made its way to my tear ducts or something like that. Or they start chasing that feeling, right? Kind of like a crackhead. They're just trying to find that high again. And it seems like you've very soberly approached the your your life after that occurrence, which happened in September last year. So, talk to me a little bit of more about that because again, the tendency for some people is to chase that feeling cuz it'll substantiate something in their brains. Yeah, I I love the question and and how you framed it. And uh there's two things really. One is that and this isn't to diminish anybody else's experience that's similar to that. For me, it was just that powerful. Yeah. Like it it it really and mostly is that simple is is I had not had that feeling ever in my life. I'd never felt it before. Um you know, and so I think the the between the power and the and the profound nature with which I experienced that emotion, it had a permanent impact on how I approach really everything. The second thing uh and I would say, you know, I I don't know that I'd put a percentage on this was you know, the level of power or whatever, but the other very profound thing that that also took place where both of my kids did the same thing without us talking about it. They went to church. >> Yeah, and and so my oldest um you know, she she has uh spent more time I would say uh in in her relationship with God over the years and has had friends that she's gone to church with and um you know, she she moved out of the continental United States for a couple years and found a church where she was at and and uh has has kind of been more into it for lack of better terms. My youngest uh I I think probably heavily influenced from me, just never really thought much about it, you know, her entire childhood. We we did baptize both of them at my parents' church right after they were born mostly out of tradition. Yeah. Um which I I hate to say that that's the case. That's the reality just being transparent. I'm glad that we did. Um I I would love to do it again or have them decide to do it again. Um but it is that, you know, they they went through the same thing and and especially for my youngest to experience kind of the same same exact path that I did. And she she hadn't mentioned anything. It wasn't until Sunday night uh they they FaceTimed me together and they're they live out of out of the city. They live in in state, but they they're go to school uh elsewhere and and so they they both got on the phone and FaceTime me and and told me that that that had happened. Basically, said the the exact same week that you just had, we had without us ever saying that. And I I I was just again, I was like, what is happening, you know? Um so, you know, for for me those those two things, I think, um you know, and and also I I I would say like seeing their maybe appreciation or how much it felt like they valued that uh connection, you know, to their dad that way that that we just had never had before. Um all those things combined, like to me it's it's not even a an option, really. It's like, this is just how it is, you know, in terms of me wanting to to learn more, experience more, uh study more, um and and just try to to gain as much knowledge, information, and and spiritual guidance as as I can, you know? So, uh it's it's been a a really powerful uh seven or eight months, that's for sure. Um but, you know, I I'm just so so thankful for the things that have have happened and and led to uh you know, getting me to arrive to where I'm sitting across the table from you to to talk about it. And so, I I mean, I've been curious for even going back to when you text me uh about about the Bible and you know, those types of things, like take me back to to that time period because that was that was before Charlie Kirk was assassinated. So, obviously, that was kind of a continuation. Um what even got you to the to that point to where that was even something that you would even consider doing? And then why in the world did you text a angry ginger podcaster? Well, that's that has a lot to do with That's right. Uh I do love angry gingers, so. >> Let's go. You're one of the few. You're one of the few people. But my my youngest is uh I wouldn't call her angry, but uh she's for sure a ginger, so I can relate. >> She's uh she's got to rely on SPF 100 to to make it through the day. Yeah, got you. Um So, I mean go going back to the podcast, that that's really the gist of it is that, you know, not just maybe I uh kind of underplayed the the caliber of men that I'm talking about is that obviously the the presence piece that I talked about was significant, but when I looked at what they'd been through, what they'd done with their lives, you know, the whether they had just unbelievably brutal childhoods followed by 20 years of hardened combat experience and you know, just all of the things that they had accomplished and done and you know, like that that all combined and just seeing it over and over and over and over the these, you know, men that were just so incredibly impactful and and how they came across, how they carried themselves and I also think that strangely, you know, the the decades that I've spent training dogs is, you know, it it makes you focus on nonverbal communication and body language far more than most people. I mean, human beings are are perceptive in that way. Nothing compared to dogs. >> yeah. Yeah, I mean, in one of the not to get too far off the rails, but but I I do think it's an important uh concept to bring up is is if you think about like let's say you're sitting in a Target parking lot in your car, there's a a man you've never met walking out of Target 100 yards away and he's having the worst day of his life. Are you going to be able to tell that by how he walks out of Target? You're going to get some hints, for sure. So, now now think about the amount of information that you and I have exchanged since we've been sitting here. How much has body language, nonverbal communication played a role in any of that? It certainly played played a role, but most of it's been verbal. >> Most of it's verbal. Yeah. Human beings are overwhelmingly verbal. Yes, there are cues, there are things that we we pick up on. Now, put yourself in a dog's shoes, Mhm. where they don't speak at all. Yes, they whine, they bark, they growl, but 99% of their communication is all nonverbal. Spending decades doing that, especially when it's getting in a bite suit and and having to test a dog and and now the the responsibility of a a form a a a fellow teammate, a police officer, somebody who's going to put the the dog's responsibility is going to be, you know, on their shoulders and vice versa is is that I they're going to have to trust this dog with their life. So, you better believe I'm going to take the the selection and and evaluation incredibly serious, and I'm going to put everything I can into that dog to get in his head, to intimidate him, to whatever. Doing that for decades, you you get very very good at doing certain things to elicit responses, but also being able to read them. And so, at the risk of sounding like I'm blowing my own horn, I I I think that I have a a better ability than most to read people and and their energies and their presences. I I think more than most people just because I've spent so much time doing it. And what I kept finding myself doing is is just noticing so many little things about these people, about how they carried themselves and the way they said things and uh just their perspective on things, and it just kept happening over and over and over, and um you know, I I think it was a combination of the the episode I did with Doron and then also a Delta Force guy, uh you know, Jeff that that had written a a book that uh I don't know if you've heard of it or read it. I I forget the name of it. I'll I'll get it to you, but um both of those guys having very different um perspectives, but having incredible depths of knowledge uh, as it relates to the historical um, timeline of of the three major faiths over the last 2,500 years. And that that's kind of what where that came from is that, you know, I'm I'm seeing this pattern. It's not an accident. I need to know more. I want to know more. The reason I I sent you a message and nobody else I didn't send that message to anyone else. I didn't take a poll of who who thought I was wondering, I wonder what they all voted on. That was That was my guess. Yeah. No, I I you're the only guy I asked and and it's just because I, you know, I I I put you into the same category as those guys for somebody who lives their life that way and and also knowing that, you know, kind of your day-to-day is is pretty heavily centered around, you know, speaking with people like that, having roundtables with people. You have, you know, real high-level strong relationships with some of the best and most well-known pastors all over the country and probably even the world and and I, you know, in in flipping through kind of my mental rolodex of who's going to have the the probably the best perspective, you know, having seen so many different things within, you know, Christianity as a as a whole, your your opinion of of what uh, type of or or, you know, what version of the Bible is is the best to look into is what I wanted to know and and cuz I I think on on the microcosm of Christianity, I think that's important is is knowing which translation is is going to be the most accurate and and I also tend to look at Christianity as as a faith kind of in that same way in in that, you know which if you're looking at denominations or aspects of Christianity uh, and I always try to not get too far in the weeds on this is wrong versus this is right and this is accurate versus this this is not. That is something I I would love to get further into, but um is that you know, try trying to take a a version of the Bible and a sect or denomination of Christianity that's the least changed as possible. You know, obviously it's going to be an assumption for anybody living in today's day and age which one of those is the most accurate and that's where uh archaeological, you know, findings and and a lot of things are going to come into play, but to me it it's kind of the macrocosm is is that, the microcosm is, you know, which version of the Bible and and you seemed like the guy to ask for that. Well, I mean that that's humbling and I'm glad I didn't I could have told you to read the message Bible which is technically not even a translation, but that would have been fun to to get a text message back. Kyle, what is this nonsense? And but what I told you was the English Standard Version because when you when you get into the different um types of Bibles, you know, there's the word-for-word translations, some are readable, some are not super readable, then you have kind of thought-for-thought translations. That puts a little bit too much wiggle in the joint uh for some passages and some people start to take liberties, you know, they'll make gendered language not gendered and it's just like, yeah, guys, come on, time out. And then obviously you have people that are like, well, you're technically not reading the Bible unless you're reading it in the Hebrew as written down in or the Greek that it was written down in or the ancient Galilean Aramaic in which Jesus spoke or something like that, but what what they're describing is actually Islam because if you're a a true dyed-in-the-wool Muslim, you cannot read the Quran unless it's in Arabic, right? So, if you're reading it in English or Spanish or German or Portuguese or something like that, you're not reading the Quran. So, I'm like, what? It's kind of something that happens in society. We treat Christianity like it's Islam and then we treat Islam like it's Christianity and it's like, Bad News Bears, that's not good. Let's not do that. But the the the whole point is like it's like, what's the best Bible? The one you'll read. That's the best one. So, if you read Yeah, it's like if you That's what my boys have, right? We have the Action Bible. And we've got the Action Bible for very little kids, and we've got the Action Bible for a little bit older kids, cuz if I bust out the King James on the boys, the these and thous are going to leave them in the dust, right? And so, for a lot of people, it's the same thing when people are trying to get in shape, they spend all this time researching the best shoes to run in, what time of day the endorphins will be released by this amount of effort and all that, but what they never do is just go work out. And so, it's like the the best version of the Bible to read is the one that you'll read, but I typically do ESV because it's a word-for-word translation that is supremely readable. There are some places, especially in the Old Testament, that can get a little stodgy, a little stale, but this isn't about entertaining you, it's about trying to accurately portray from the original writers that were, you know, that this message is God-breathed, and it's for us. It was It wasn't written, you know, about us, but it is for us and for our for our overall betterment and sanctification. But even just curious for you, I've talked to a lot of people, Mike, over the years, and I've seen a lot of people just kind of in the cultural or podcast sphere that are Christian-curious, or they're Christ-curious, or, you know, they'll see someone who is, for all intents and purposes, as far as we know, a secularist, like a Jordan Peterson. They'll see Jordan Peterson, this guy with the super high-octane, high-IQ brain, and he said he just talks about the Bible with such reverence, and he just talks about how this refers to this, and they're like, this this this Bible He's like, this isn't a book as much as it's a library, and it's and it's hyperlinked. Like, this refers to that, which refers to these seven things, which refers back to that. And so, there are plenty of people that are curious. There are plenty of people that know stuff about this Middle Eastern Jewish construction worker that was also an itinerant rabbi that, you know, had a 3-year public ministry in his early 30s and was killed for his troubles. They know stuff about him, but they don't like know him. And I know that can kind of seem kind of ethereal and emotional, but it's like, no, do you know him in here and have you placed your faith in his finished work on the cross that somehow, some way that counted for you? And so even in, you know, whether you want to go back to your early life with Lutheranism and things like that, but even in your last 7-8 months of this spiritual awakening, the person and work of Christ as it pertains to Mike Gritland, where are you at with that? I I guess it's hard to it's hard to to frame or or explain kind of where I'm at with it other other than just saying, you know, for me like I I feel through my entire soul and and all the way through my heart his presence for the first time in my life. Uh no no two ways about it. Um and you know, for for me the the stress relief, not not that I was a stressed-out person. That's what it's one thing that I had been very thankful and and fortunate and grateful for if I look at the transition out of the military that and the and the struggle that most veterans experience, I think, in in losing that as an identity and finding the 2.0 version of themselves and being depressed and, you know, turning to certain substances or whatever, I never had that. I you know, whether it's the some of the psilocybin or ibogaine treatments that have saved a lot of of our veterans' lives, you know, I've never felt you know, any need or or being called to do that. I never felt like I was in a place where where it was a negative where I was down or depressed. Even with that, you know, that this resurgence in coming back to Christ in a way where um you know, the the the presence of of him in my in my flesh is undeniable. Still uh presented a feeling of relief unlike anything I'd ever felt also, you know, so to me I I I think it's natural a lot of times when people are at the very bottom they're searching for anything to get them out of the bottom and they find that and that's great. For me that's from my perspective kind of the the one of the most beautiful things of the entire process is I wasn't looking for it. You know, I I wasn't in a position where I was grasping at anything that I could find as a spiritual life raft to get out of this horrible situation that I was in. It It would It just happened. Um you know, which to me not that again, not to take anything away from anybody's experience who it saved their life because they were in whatever position that was just in incredibly terrible, but I I think that's you know, the primary reason why it's had such a profound impact on me is is I wasn't looking for it. I I wasn't in this place where I felt like I needed a a hand up or or anything and so um I don't know if that answers your question, but um you know, it's something that it's a feeling I've never felt before. It's been present, you know, for months now and uh and I'm just overwhelmed with uh you know, joy as as it relates to the the feeling that I get from uh from the peace that it brings. Well, what you bring up is an important topic that I've talked about with a lot of different guys, which is some people feel like their story of faith isn't cool enough to share. And so cuz it's always the dramatic story, the drug addict that still had the belt tied around their arm with the needle hanging out and then they have this out-of-body experience and Jesus says, "Hey, stop being such an idiot. Like I I died for you." And they slap them and then boom, they come back into their body. Makes a great book, man. Man, it makes a great speech. It makes a a great, you know, mini-series or something like that. Some people don't have that experience. Some people realize at the age of 6 years old that Jesus was a real man that died on a real cross for a real sin debt and he paid for the sins past, present, and future of all of humanity and that we can put our faith in his finished work. No heroin, like like no out-of-body experience, just a little kid in the childlike faith that comes with it. You know, you're even talking about the curiosity of a of a child almost is how you approach the podcast. And so your story is just your story. Some stories are made for television, some are just made to be shared in a dyadic, you know, communication over coffee or something like that. And so but ultimately what I what I always like try to get to with people is trying to figure out, okay, how can I best help them if they're on a sanctification journey or if they're on an evangelism journey because sanctification means you're you're already a believer and you're basically a baby deer and what can I do to help you to where you can walk better, get stronger, and become more sanctified. And then for other people it's cuz the thing that I cuz where did Where did you grow up? Ohio? Iowa. Iowa. Iowa, that's right. And so here in Oklahoma, I call it country music theology and I've talked to, you know, people in Texas where you live now and one of the hardest things to do in ministry is to convince someone that thinks they're a Christian that they're not. And cuz I know a lot of people that, you know, they were baptized when they were a kid, you know, they believe in God, whatever that means, you know, their grandmama and grandpappy were really good Christians and, you know, when they vote they vote Republican and if they listen to music it's '90s country and God likes all that stuff and so, you know, we check the boxes, wrap it in an American flag, and boom, you're a Christian. And then trying to convince someone that they're still a depraved sinner that is doing Christian things, even going to church, but one of the most haunting scriptures is where, you know, God says to these people that said, "Wait, we we cast out demons in your name. We did all this ministry in your name. And he says, depart from me for my for I never knew you. These are people that were just doing what was culturally acceptable at the time, which was going to church, doing an Easter, you know, get-together. Similar to what you uh witness when you're in these Muslim countries, you witness people that were just operating to the beats of how Islam worked into their everyday life. And so, that's the thing I tried to nail nail down for people is like even with with where you sit right now, it seems like the presence of God is all over the place. Like you keep using the word presence, presence. And I wrote it down like presence, presence. Do you like from your understanding of even theology, do you feel like that's an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is what Christians are given whenever they accept Christ? Cuz there's not like a magical prayer you can pray, it's not anywhere in the Bible, there's not like a you know, you have to have this down at the altar moment, but there's just this realization like, no, I believe this and in that moment you receive the Holy Spirit and your sanctification journey begins. Or would you say you're still just kind of like in this place of experiencing tremendous amounts of peace that kind of centers in and around your overall curiosity? To me, I mean, at the risk of sounding maybe even contradictory, it's both. You know, I uh without question, you know, the the the feeling of the Holy Spirit, which is is the only thing that I I can Like the only word you can think of. >> it's the only thing I can kind of mentally reconcile that that it could be because of it just not nothing I've ever experienced and and the context around with which it was experienced makes it impossible for me to deny that it's anything else. Uh at the same time, there's this resurgence of this childlike curiosity. I think part of part of a large part of it is just that's my personality is that when I find something interesting that I don't know anything about, I dive headfirst into it. Yeah. With this, you know, again, that the the kind of the humbling aspect of it for me is having spent, you know, the the confirmation process in the Lutheran church is significant. It's thorough. But it's seventh, eighth, and ninth grade, you know, and so that's not mental bandwidth-wise the best time to to learn things that have the gravity associated with them that I think you know, faith does in some ways. Some in some ways it's a great time to learn, but I think for me at least the the overall scope of of what I would call I feel like I have an understanding just was was not there. And to me the beauty of it is that that that learning curve and process never ends. You'll hear me make probably more than than this next jiu-jitsu reference. I'm sure I'll make more of them, but you can relate better than most is there's a lot of parallels that I see between them and and you know, I hope that doesn't come off as sacrilege, but Not to this crowd, no. You know, but but the to me it reminds me a lot of the jiu-jitsu journey in that at first and for some people it's maybe only a few months. For most people it's a few years. You you feel lost. You know, every time you roll unless it's with somebody as bad as you or worse and even then you just you're both lost. >> Yeah, that's right. But there there comes a point somewhere in your jiu-jitsu journey if you do it long enough where it just feels like I get it. You know, even if whoever I'm you know, training with is so much better than me that I can't keep them from doing what they want to do and I can't accomplish any of my goals. I know what he's trying to do and I know what I'm trying to do and I just can't make that happen, but there's never a I have no idea what I'm doing right now or I have no idea what I should be trying to be doing right now and and to me I don't feel like I'm at that point you know, Christian faith journey-wise yet where I it's like yeah, I get it. But if I was to compare myself sitting here right now to myself 1 year ago, there's no comparison. Um you know, just the the level of understanding that I think or feel like I have for the kind of the the macrocosm that is uh Christianity and and even just faith generally speaking, it just makes a lot more sense to me now. I don't want to say that I get it uh because I don't know that you ever completely do, but um but it yeah, it's just it's it's been a huge learning curve and one that that I've just really really enjoyed. Yeah, and I don't I don't think you'll ever arrive. Like that's implicit in what sanctification is. It is a journey. But the reality is and the truth of the gospel is is that there's a sin debt that you cannot be in the presence of a holy and just God and sin can't be there in his presence. And we were all born into sin. When Adam sinned, like he is our our federal head and when he sinned, we were all born into it. You don't have to teach a baby to be selfish. You don't have to teach, you know, people to sin. It's just part of our nature. And so there is a sin debt that we can't possibly be righteous righteous enough or good enough or check enough boxes or do enough good deeds to live up to the standard of perfection. And so God, part of the Godhead, sent himself down in the form of Jesus to be the perpetuation, the payment that satisfies, the sacrifice on our behalf. And and then you start getting into different theological languages and I'm always going to make make somebody mad with how I word it, but at some point you make a decision that you're going to transfer your faith from yourself for your own future and your salvation onto Christ. And that he is we are going to be imputed with his righteousness. We receive his righteousness. And then our role from here on out is to share that same truth with someone else, with other people, and to live that out and to to try to live a godly life as much as possible. So, would you say that you personally are a Christian now that you have put your faith in Christ for your sin debt, or are you still kind of just in the evaluation period because, you know, part of it is because I want to know how I can best like serve you and and help you as a brother aside from just leaving, you know, sending you out of here with like 15 books from the library, which I'm about to do. But like, have you made that decision or has that realization happened in you that no, no, like regardless of how I was baptized, regardless of the what version of the Bible I'm reading, I have transferred my faith from myself onto Jesus. Without question, yes. Mike, like, you don't know how like freaking happy that makes me to hear because like I go back to those previous conversations and I just like my heart hurt Yeah. for some of the answers I got, you know what I mean? And the conversations I've had with people about you that have asked me about you and they're like, "Where's Mike at? Where's Mike at?" And I'm like, "Mike's where Mike's at." And that's like, "That's not up to me." Yeah. And I can't like again, I it sucks cuz I'm an arguer, right? I'm a I'm a logic person, like I want to put together these arguments, but it's like you can't argue someone into the the faith, you can just pray for them. And then you get a text message one day to where it's like, "Whoa." Out of out of nowhere. And I mean like, did you ever think that this day would come where you would basically be making that declaration? No, I I I don't. I mean, you know, again, the the kind of wind being let out of my faith sails as a young man, you know, I thought was permanent, you know. To be fair, I didn't think much about it, you know, it wasn't something where I was like, "Well, this is gone. I wonder if I'm ever going to get it back." You know, just was something I just kind of stopped thinking about, you know, and and It's almost like you felt like you had matured past it. Yeah, yeah, it was it was, you know, I think the the the human nature of being arrogant, you know in your own mind of thinking that you know better or that you have it figured out. I think I was consumed with that of not thinking that I'm some genius. It's just you know we're at this point human civilization wise where there's so many things that we can scientifically prove or whatever that even that it's like look at what was scientifically proven 10 years ago 50 years ago 100 or 1000 years ago and it's laughable now and you know to think that it's not going to be the case 500 years from now I think is equally laughable. Yeah. You know but I I think I think yeah just you know getting to that age of reason and and because I had grown up with it I think for some people or for at least me I do think it it maybe cheapened the experience because it wasn't a choice. You know it was something that that was just part of my childhood and and I wouldn't trade that like I'm still thankful and glad that my parents raised me the way that they did. There's nothing about my childhood I would change. Um but I think for everybody's you know everybody's journey is is their own it's individual and how and why it happens you know there's there's only one one entity that you know that has any skin in that game and and we're not the person that has that or whatever so you know for me it it it uh yeah it was just something where it was a natural progression of getting into you know an age and and accomplishing a lot of things militarily and professionally at a very young age and getting to a point where I just kind of felt like I knew better you know unfortunately and and and had a lot of reasons that I found myself thinking or looking to to not subscribe to or or be be faithful and and just yeah Yeah, looking at it I think from a very selfish standpoint and in that I knew better and doesn't make any sense and I'm not even going to try to figure it out and uh yeah, so to your question, that's kind of a long tail on that kite, but no, I would have never never would have expected the the last few years to have gone the way that they've gone in in that regard. Well, so what are you looking forward to perspective-wise because I forget uh exactly who said it, but they said and this applies to a lot of areas, they're like, "It's not how many years you've been a Christian, it's how many hours." And I try to tell people the same thing with jiu-jitsu. It's not how many years you've been doing jiu-jitsu, it's how many hours. Cuz there are guys right now that I've trained more years than they have, but they've already trained more hours than I will train in totality over the entirety of my jiu-jitsu life, right? The same applies for Christianity. But like you you've got the establishment of who you've been up to this point. You've got uh being an AB Seal, serving in the military, you've got all the dog training, you've got the Warrior Dog Foundation, you've got, you know, your Team Dog businesses, you've got the podcast. You've already got all this stuff. But now, depending on your perspective, laid over the top of all of it or undergirding all of it as the foundation or a scaffolding is this this faith in Christ. And so, how does that, you know, like what does that lead to on into the future? Are there things that you're kind of looking forward to because, you know, one thing that I'll I'll see from some people, they'll have this radical encounter with God and then all of a sudden they feel like they have to burn every bridge and ship like in the vicinity and they got to get a job with a, you know, a you know, card with a logo of a church on it and the word pastor on it or they got to, you know, go back to school to get a Bible degree or something like that. And maybe that is what God's calling them to do, but more than likely God wants them to be salt and light where they already exist. Like to to be the hands and feet and of of God, but in the areas of the world that they're already like having an influence and an impact. And so, what what is what is your faith in Christ going to lead to in all those other areas of your life? To me, that's the Excuse me, the beauty of um if you want to say arriving to this place that I've gotten to here recently is is that I don't have to worry about it. Mhm. You know, is that I I don't think that far ahead anymore. And And one of the things that I think is a byproduct of being an entrepreneur is there's this weird dichotomy of of learning how to plan the next 20 minutes, 20 hours, 20 days, 20 weeks, 20 months, and 20 years. And And you become a master planner and and predictor and and trying to move all these chess pieces to to make the long game happen while still focusing on the short game. And while that didn't stress me out compared to stress in combat or, you know, struggle with addiction or any of those types of things, still a very stressful thing. And And I think that that's one of the bigger points of relief for me in in coming to Christ recently is is is anytime I find myself in in that frame of mind of thinking, "Well, what's next? How How do I take advantage of this? Where is this going to go?" I don't worry about it. I I look upstairs. And And one thing I found myself praying all a lot often is just use me how you see fit. And And I'm I'm along for the ride. Like I'm not I'm not worried about it. >> Just laying your yes down on the table. >> Yeah, like I'll I'll keep continuing to do what I do, you know, and and you you use me as your tool however you see fit. If that's in in these few little areas, fantastic. If it's a complete transformative shift in every aspect of my life, fantastic. You're calling the shots. I'm not worried about it. Um and so, to me, like that that's been such a huge relief is just to turn over that uh that authority and and submit that plan making and the and the always trying to angle for going down this path or that path is that, you know what, you're you're the map maker. I'm just the the journeyman, you know, so I'm I'm open. Well, there's a tremendous beauty in just laying your yes down, letting your yes be yes, but then also So, I can remember in that closet downstairs, those early episodes, episodes 1 2 3 4 5, whatever. I remember sitting there going no one's ever going to hear these episodes. Like, I'm going to give full effort, but no one's ever going to hear it. I'm not going to have ever going to have more than a few dozen listeners outside of my own household. But, it was like, God, may the words that I say glorify you, and I'm I'm going to work as unto you. I'm going to work as unto the Lord. Now, thank goodness I actually did that because now you got people discovering me with episode 902, and then they're going back to episode 1, like, I wonder what this guy sounded like back then. And I'm like, oh God, thank God I like actually put effort into it. I don't agree with that guy all the time from, you know, 8 9 years ago, but I can still stand by the work that I did. But, one of my favorite things that I've ever heard in a sermon was a pastor out of New York named John Tyson. When he was like 16 years old, he worked in a butcher shop in Australia, grew up in Australia. And this was after he'd be become a Christian. And here he is, you know, he's got this side of beef that he's about to break down, you know, for the butcher shop for the day. He would lay out all of his tools, and he would just open his hands, and he would say, God, if no one else sees the cuts that I make today, you will see them. And may they be the best cuts that I am capable of, and that I can glorify you with these cuts. Amen. Right? Bro, if you approach everything in your life like that, God, I'm about to open up your word. I sometimes feel half [ __ ] Can you please help me like understand what I'm about to read or lead me somewhere where someone else can help me understand it or another book or something like that. God, I'm about to exercise. You gave me a meat chassis. I only get one of them. I am to honor you with all things heart, soul, mind, and spirit, and I'm going to honor you with my body. Please bless me through this time. How you approach everything, work, your relationships, your friendships, all those different things change when you can tether it to something real because I'm always curious for people that are ardent atheists. They believe we are highly evolved chimps that wear pants and talk and you know, figured out fire somehow, but we used to be fish that used to be goo that used to be stardust, and that stardust all came from nowhere at no time for no purpose and just poof and then it happened. I'm like, what are you doing any of these things for? Like other than temporary pleasure or some sort of hedonistic end, but when you can attach it to the person and work of Christ, it it's more than just hey, I know where I'm going to go when I die. It's like no, it it makes your entire life in every level better. For sure it does. I mean, it's it's all encompassing, you know, and and every aspect of of how I look at things is is through that lens, which again is just the the sense of peace and calm and and relief that I feel from that is is impossible to to overstate. Um you know, it it it's been again, just at the risk of sounding like a broken record, a a life-changing event that um has has just shifted my perspective on how I look at everything. Um and and in such a a peaceful way. And you know, you know, for me the in terms of the looking at kind of the the process that I think for for me and I think for a lot of people and and maybe to the point where one of the things you mentioned a lot of times people have this kind of explosion of of emotion and then it it fades away. Some of that I think is is turning it into a sprint instead of a lifelong journey. Not to be dismissive or say that it's casual because it's not, but in terms of not trying to overload yourself with too much too early. Mhm. To me it's it's kind of no different in that there's so much information and and value in the Bible. And you know, to me one of the things why I think trying to digest it in very small bits and and really understand it instead of I want to read 20 pages today. I want to read 20 words 50 times over and over let's go, yeah. Until I really understand what I'm reading, you know, and and and for that day similarly like there's days where I'll spend a lot more time than others digesting scripture or you know, watching interviews or you know, just going down different kind of rabbit holes of of historical research or what have you. Some days way more than others, but I you know, for me I I want to only bring into kind of my mental capacity what I'm capable of actually digesting and not overload myself to where I I I get confused and for me that's worked really really well is to is to not try to I got to read this book and then and this you know, and and not do too much and just say you know, I want to talk to God throughout the day every single day and and where that leads me is is completely up to him. I want to continue to to make a concerted effort and prioritize learning and becoming better versed in and and understanding in a higher capacity everything that I'm trying to understand, but I I don't want to burn myself out and and overload myself to a point where it's counterproductive. >> Well, you're you're you're speaking to a lot of guys right now that are kind of in that place. So if you're high octane, if you're high energy, if you're super type A, you got to check boxes. Like you're the type of guy that has already done the task, but you will make another check box just so you can check that box, right? For something you've already done cuz you get satisfaction from it. But I had something that completely changed really my entire life. So this would have been the end of 2023. So I I'm normally reading books for the podcast and then I do a best books of the year podcast. I'm keeping track throughout the year. Well, to prepare for interviews that year in the first 11 months, I read 54 books to prepare for podcast interviews. And I'm like, I'm the smartest man alive. I'm smartest man that's ever lived. I read 54 books. Like and some of them were, you know, they were between 250 and 500 pages. Like these were serious books. I wasn't reading pamphlets. And in an instant, Mike, I felt like God specifically shut everything off in my brain for 2 seconds so he could be like, Hey, uh how much Bible did you read this year? And I was like, "Oh, no." Like I definitely didn't read 58 or 53 or 54 chapters in the Bible this year. Did I read 54 pages of the Bible this year? And I realized, "No. I'd got nowhere close." Because my job, which God gave me and sent me on this journey to do to help equip men to push back darkness and for me to equip men to push back darkness, led me to doing a bunch of Christian adjacent stuff. So I was reading books from Christian publishing houses and from Christian authors and there would be scripture in there here and there. But I wasn't reading the Bible on my own just for my own understanding and to spend some time with God and I was like, "This is a disaster." And I immediately told some of my internal guys here what had happened and I was like, "I don't know what this means, but I got to fix it." And out of that was born the Forging Table, right? Where me and four other guys are sitting together and where we're going through books of the Bible. And I say all that to say this. It's taken me a few years to approach and get to the place where you're kind of at right now. Cuz how we've approached the Forging Table is we pick a book of the Bible. And I didn't know what we were going to do. And so I'm like, let's just do, you know, a a chapter, you know, an hour. And so I think we did we started with either Ephesians or Galatians. We did some random Proverbs and uh some Psalms. We did my favorite book of the Old Testament, Nehemiah. Then we decided we were going to do Matthew. So we here we hit the Gospel. Then we go back to Genesis and then even in Genesis we would do two chapters or maybe even three because, you know, kind of like speeding things along. But last year we were wrapping up I think Acts. And I was like, I feel like we should do Romans. But there's something different about Romans. And I could feel the gravity of Romans. And when you hear great pastors like Matt Chandler call Romans Mount Everest. And then it's like, well, how do you approach Mount Everest? You don't sprint up it, right? You kind of a ways and then stop and kind of settle and let your body acclimate before you can go any further. And so how we've approached the book of Romans is completely different. And I pitched it to my guys and they were all down. I'm like, we're just going to hit record. We're going to let the timer go for about an hour. And then we're just going to see where we go. And I think we got from Romans 1:1 to Romans 1:7 in 4 hours. Like that was the first chunk. We got through seven verses. Now we were having fun and we, you know, we're messing around and having some open conversations about random topics. But we have been scraping through the book of Romans. And you know, we're about to record some in Romans 7 and we just been in Romans for all this time. And Mike, what what it that's done for my faith, just rereading the same 20 words over and over, trying to parse out some more meaning, having God communicate through through that word, reading some other commentaries, listening to sermons about that, it has completely revolutionized my understanding and what I'm noticing is I'm having more Bible just come out of me, right? Because when I was around Phil Robertson when he was still alive, my current pastor Mark Hitchcock, who my audience has heard from a couple of times, you know, when you squeeze those guys, Bible verses come out. It's not because they're being showy, it's not because, you know, they went to Awana or Vacation Bible School and they memorized all these things and they just spout it out just like they would baseball statistics. It's just in there. And because I'm approaching it now how you've described for yourself you're approaching it, it I feel like it's changing everything for me. Yeah, I mean there there's a a strange kind of correlation I think between, you know, our professional lives, whether you work for somebody, you own a business, I mean whatever is that, you know, the goal should be, I would hope, is that as you get older, you become more efficient at everything. >> That's right. And and to me that that's kind of what it reminds me of. It's things that I've learned completely outside of of faith that that I know from a a procedural or uh you know, knowledge retaining standpoint or whatever, are just more effective for me. Yeah. And and probably for most people. Again, to use another jiu-jitsu reference is it it's the instead of trying to learn 400 moves and suck at all of them uh and not be able to actually, you know, finish any of them in a live roll, it's I feel personally attacked, Mike, by you talking about that. Come on. If the shoe fits. >> Yeah, shut up. Uh but yeah, you know, it's it's really, really learning the things that that matter, you know, and and uh to me the the neat thing about faith generally speaking is that everybody's journey is is their own, it's a little different. Um how you approach it, uh you get to pick how you approach it, you know and and and that's the one thing that that I I want to reiterate, I guess, as somebody who's kind of roller coaster or come full circle is the I think they're kind of almost argumentative or combative nature with which I see a lot of um I guess, if you want to call them students of the cloth. I mean, I don't know what you'd call them. Faith-based podcast or interviews or even, you know, some of the I don't know how to pronounce his last name, Cliff Neckley or Neckelmann >> knows how to pronounce his last name. I don't even think he does. Yeah. But, you know, to me >> that goes and speaks on college campuses and, you know, engages with them. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's an element of that type of interaction that for me personally I just don't like. I find I find a level of combativeness to it where where there's like arrogance and dismissiveness and almost like you're dumb for even having this question kind of vibe to it. I'm not trying to attack Cliff. I'm sure he's a great guy. But, when I look at, you know, having had different points in my life where I was in the people who are are questioning this this guy's shoes you know, to me I find that I would approach the any relationship you have with any other human being on the planet especially in one where you're trying to witness or evangelize your faith, which is, you know, the the core element of your being approach that the same way that you would approach your wife. With a tenderness and a yeah. >> Yeah, I mean, be be kind even if you're angry, right? Be calm even if you're, you know, or be calm when you're angry, be kind when you're hurt. Like in those instances, you know, when when you approach somebody, if you want to do the what would Jesus do is that obviously none of us were were around uh to to witness any of of his uh life but all we have to go off of his are his words, but if you look at the the theme that is Jesus is that there's that recurring theme of what from my perspective seems like it's that. Yeah. It's being kind and calm in all circumstances. Now, it doesn't mean if somebody attacks you that you don't fight back. It doesn't mean that you don't train to be dangerous and capable if if, you know, the situation calls on it. And I do that. You know, but but when you're interacting with people and I see like some of these roundtables on podcasts and stuff where you get some of these young guys who are arguing, like yelling at each other about you know, whether it's Catholicism versus versus Orthodox versus Protestant and they're they're arguing like they're they're politicians arguing policy. To me, it it it just it does a huge disservice, I think, to people who are unsure of of what to believe or if they believe or are are curious about what Christianity or any faith is, for that matter, to to step into that world and see people who are supposed to be on the same side treating each other with you know, dis- like distasteful uh discourse where it's it just comes across as as the vinegar versus the honey thing and and I think again, this is just my opinion and you know, there was plenty of people that would I'm sure chastise me for having this opinion but when I look at at least how I want to conduct myself, it's in a way where going back to the politician thing, I get that evangelizing is a is a core component, but from my perspective, it's also about efficiency and and effectiveness. And from my perspective, the most effective way to evangelize is is to make your presence and the tenderness grace kindness and compassion that you conduct yourself with everybody, no matter how they treat you, no matter what they think, no matter how much they're chastising you for being wrong about what you say you're right about. Nothing comes across better than conducting yourself that way and and being kind first. And I just see so much of the opposite of that out there. And and you've seen this and this this is within Christianity and outside Christianity as well. Somebody who on stage or when they're performing or in front of a camera, they're incredibly personable and likable and all those different things. And then when you meet them off stage, you're just like, uh, never meet your heroes is kind of the thing. And so certainly your witness as a Christian matters, whether there's a camera on you or you're just you know, in a coffee shop meeting somebody. I mean, look, this morning a guy came up, I guess he noticed noticed me at breakfast and all that and he they even mentioned, he was very sheepish, he's like, I I've seen you before and I wanted to come up. And what I try to do in a situation like that, I know I have a weird job, I know I have a weird face, it's hard to hide. I try to ask them about them. Like, let's get some hey, how'd you hear about this? Or like, hey, why didn't you come up and say hi last time? And oh, are you going to be there next week? Like that kind of thing. Just to take a little bit of the sting out of the interaction. But a lot of it just comes down to authenticity and do you actually believe the things that you're saying and does that work itself out in what you're doing? So some of my favorite apologists um J. Warner Wallace, John Lennox, Wes Huff is like what we talked about and on the female side you got like, you know, Alisa Childers, uh, you know, Melissa Dougherty, some of those folks. They're so winsome and um like they they interact with people in such a nice and genuine way on and off stage. Now, some of my favorite people on this planet are preachers. When they're on stage, they are the same person that they are just a little bit louder and personality turned up about 15 to 20%. But they're the same person, right? You're not going to get this inequity that you get in some people that get on stage and talk about hey, give generously to the brethren and blah blah blah and then they're just these horrible awful people that take advantage of everybody on the outside. But I think that's the important thing for just everybody listening to this is if you're not personally drawn to Christian apologetics, God probably put a different desire inside of your spirit. Now, from Paul's letters we get all of us should have an apologia or an apologia for the faith that we have. We should be able to explain it, but not everybody's called to argue it professionally. So, if you can't explain why you have the faith that you have, that's a problem. But you don't need to train and get a degree in an advanced degree in Christian apologetics. And that's the thing that I I I want everyone to kind of hear because you brought up something a lot of these debates and arguments like you know, the further you get into Christianity it'll be like which Bible's the best and which translation and are you Calvinist or Armenian? Like are you are you reformed or are you super reformed? But even at this table, Mike, we've had some times where these are these are my brothers, right? These are my guys. Where some guys walk out of the room and they are [inaudible] off, right? Because maybe they felt like the other three guys at the table were ganging up on them or maybe they didn't feel like they could fully get their opinion out or maybe they were disappointed in how they how they expressed their opinion cuz they could have sounded smarter. But what almost always happens is a couple of things. Given enough time, whether it be hours or maybe weeks, they realize I was kind of acting like an idiot or man, I my pride really got in the way. Man, my ego made me think that I was better than that person because of insert random argument here. And then they kept coming back to realizing what actually happened at this table was healthy. This person saw the text or a particular topic in one way, this person saw it in a different way. We both expressed our opinions. At some point both of us thought we were right, but then we just let the the conversation be the conversation because there are core doctrines that you have to believe in order to be a Christian. You have to believe in God the Father, God the Son, the God the Holy Spirit. You have to believe that God sent Jesus down here to pay for our sins that he rose on the third day. You have to believe in a literal hell. You have to believe in a virgin birth. Like those are things that are not debatable. Then there's a bunch of stuff that is. When should someone be baptized, right? As a baby or as a believer? Is baptism essential for salvation? Uh what kind of music is allowed to be played in the sanctuary? Do we do hymns or do we do contemporary music? You know, here's a particular topic of theology that we find to be really really important, but this other denomination thinks it's not important at all. Those are all at best secondary issues and most of them are tertiary and beyond. They're important, they're interesting, young earth, old earth, all that. But it's like are these things that we're going to clink our glasses together in heaven and realize ah Mike was right, I was wrong. Or is this core doctrine? And I think for a lot of people, and you're probably already seeing this, some people will elevate their secondary or tertiary issue into primary cornerstone doctrine area and that's how they argue it which will lead to those podcasts that, you know, you and a lot of other people detest. Yeah. I mean I I love the way you explained all of that and and I couldn't agree more. I And and for me, I'm going to use another jiu-jitsu reference. >> Let's go. Let's go. It is to me agreed that the core doctrine is is what it is and and those are our tenants that that are not negotiable. For me that's what I focus on and and really everything outside that just like I'm not trying to do an inverted berimbolo octopus guard, I'm trying to do a and >> a real thing, by the way. He didn't just make that up. >> I'm trying to do an you know a head and arm choke. Yep. You know, I'm I'm trying to get into side control. I'm trying to do a a basic rear naked choke. Like I'm not I'm not really focused on what what to me and this again is just for me. I I love and appreciate how you kind of brought all of that together in the grand scope of it's for some people, it's not for others. It's a great reminder for me. Uh because I I'm just not one of those people that that focuses on what for me is more white noise. Not to say that those things aren't important. But if if they're not at the core belief system that uh that I subscribe to, I'm not particularly worried about it nor am I really interested in arguing with anybody about well, this text says this and this document says that and you know this person said this and and so if you look at you know, historically what was going on at that time, it probably meant this and like to me I I I I look at it from the broader spectrum of what's the point? You know, is that at the end of the day all of us are are making assumptions as to you know, like yes, some are are easier to back up to a certain degree or or even prove on paper maybe more than somebody else. But ultimately does it really matter from my perspective being right or wrong or maybe a little misguided? It doesn't. Not naive to the fact that some people that that's they're into it. They love the the healthy debate and and and it's super interesting and and maybe even healthy for them to to live their life that way. For me, it's not. I I I like to keep everything as simple as possible and really just focus on kind of the basic principles really of everything whether it's faith, jiu-jitsu uh I mean health, nutrition, working out, whatever. We were talking about that at breakfast like your gym looks a lot like my gym. Like it it need to look like The Rock's 40,000 square foot warehouse of, you know, every piece of of equipment you need. Like I want to focus on the core things, the big heavy movements, a few auxiliary exercises, nutrition, like I don't count stuff. I like I eat very very core principles of how I eat, but I don't get into super into the weeds. Even with dog training, uh I'm more that way because the dog training industry is very much that way. I think it's human nature for anyone who spends the majority of their adult life and profession doing a thing to get really into the weeds in that thing. I see dog trainers all the time arguing about, "Well, this is technically is negative reinforcement, not positive punishment. And well, you what you did here is, you know, it's you should do this and you know, it's like there are a lot of different ways to train a dog, you know? Uh some of them work better than others. Some of them work better for me than they do other people and vice versa. Uh I like to keep the the very core basic uh principles of if it's something I want to occur again, then I'm going to positively reinforce it. If it's something I don't want to have happen, I'm going to extinguish it. That's it. Like it's really not any more complicated than that. And and there's people who will write books or spend hours arguing with people about what quadrant of operant conditioning this technique is in or, you know, whatever. And then to me that kind of stuff reminds me of that of of that it's white noise. It's a distraction. And ultimately it feels very conflictive uh towards each other and and not a a brotherly love or a very Christ-like uh interaction. Uh I could be totally misguided. That's just how it comes off to me. So, we've kind of like circled the wagons on jiu-jitsu a whole bunch on the show so far. We've made a bunch of references to it, but um so, I've been training for I think as of right now it's right at nine years. So, got a couple stripes on my brown belt, you know, and experienced everything in between. I've had the injuries. I've had to take, you know, time off for surgery, things like that. But for the most part, if I'm healthy, I'm I'm not missing class. Now, there are times when I'm traveling, you know, got stuff going on with the kiddos, but what I've seen with a lot of guys is they end up taking 6 months off cuz, you know, 1 week turns into 2, which turns into to 3 months, which turns into crap, do I know how to jujitsu anymore? But I know the feeling of if I miss 2 weeks of class, which you're right now, you missed a couple weeks of class cuz you had a little tweak in your knee. Like if I miss 2 weeks of class, I feel like I'm like, I don't know if I know how to jujitsu anymore. Like I walk into class with this like low level anxiety like I don't know if I'm going to be able to like do this. Like do I know the takedown? Am I going to like find my positioning or whatever? And then, you know, it's like riding a bike, you get back in there. But I'm curious for you, you know, you had this long career in SEALs. Obviously, you've done a lot of shooting, you know, you you know how to sick dogs on people, which you did uh on me. Again, at my own request, right? That the video's out there on the internet somewhere of me getting attacked by one of your dogs. Uh putting on that 40-lb bite suit and getting getting smoked by one of them. Well, like why why did you even get into jujitsu? Because for a lot of guys that I've noticed, they're very accomplished. They dominate certain levels of their life, and then they don't want to do anything new. And if they do something new, it'll be golf or something like that. They And golf, if you like golf, great. I I hate it, but like if you like it, whatever. I don't really care. But that that's not a transferable skill. Like learning to chip a ball onto the green, you know, isn't going to help you in a kinetic situation where you need to protect yourself, right? Unless you're going to be chipping the guy's shins as he's trying to like murder your entire family or something like that. But I'm just curious. I'm always curious. Like for somebody that got into jujitsu at the age you got into it, why did you decide to do that? Because it doesn't make a lot of sense to a lot of people. Yeah, so first uh and to be fair, I'm not a fan of golf. I don't play. I don't like it. Uh I do think that there just like with everything, it's one of those things where for some people it's a it's a huge or even life-changing thing that they become a part of. There there is a a mental aspect to it that's significant. I think, you know, getting out with your buddies and having a few drinks or whatever, if if that's what you're into, and being outside and walking a few miles is great for people. Um I agree with you. I I don't play golf. I don't like it. But um for jujitsu, um there there's kind of a number of things. I mean, one you know, in the SEAL teams, like you you do combatives. It's very different in that it's one, the the deck is stacked in your favor significantly in that there's usually 16 or more of you and or at least four of you in a room with one or maybe two guys. You're you're going to have a primary and a secondary weapon that you can either shoot or strike somebody with. If you do have to go hands-on, it's going to be, you know, two guys have long guns on them and then one or two guys is sweeping in on them and you know, so it's very different than one-on-one grappling and combatives in in a wrestling nature. Having said that, it's still part of of what we do and and I enjoyed it. Um as I approached 40, you know, I I had trained a little bit off and on, not enough to even say I was training. It was, you know, a a class or a couple weeks here or there or whatever scattered over a 10-year period. And right around the time I hit 40, um there was a couple things. One, um my kids I had I had put them in jujitsu. There was a good uh MMA and jujitsu gym not far from where we were living at the time. I really liked their coach. Watching them do it, it kind of gave me the bug a little bit of like, man, I I miss, you know, rolling around with you know, dudes who are, you know, giving me all I can handle and, you know, I I and I miss and enjoyed that aspect of of training. Um also just training what you know occasionally and as I'm getting older I'm seeing you know teenagers who are giving me a run for my money which is is a humbling experience. Um and then strangely or maybe not strangely enough my ego um there and I've talked about this a couple of times but um Andy Stumpf was at at an airport I think and did one of those like ask me anything I'm you know laid over for two hours and somebody said Mike Green and Joe Rogan get in a fight who wins and um Andy was like Joe would mop the floor with Mike hands down and I and I read it and I was like this hurts for two reasons. Uh one because I thought we were buddies and two because it's true. >> Uh I was like yeah you probably would um you know and and I I joke about that but that that was part of it. I was like you know what I probably should start training again and there and there were you know other things just wanting to uh add something to the physical repertoire of things that I was doing. Um but I also you know as I've gotten older I've realized you know I wouldn't say my body's failing me but I'm not in my prime anymore you know and to me one of the um core components of being a man a father um you know head of a household is is being able to protect and provide and I always to the best of my ability want to be able to do both of those also to the best of my ability and so um it a lot of different reasons the last one being you know a lot of guys that I've known and uh love and trust over the years uh you know talk about how how much of a benefit jiu-jitsu has brought to their life that has nothing to do with physical the physical aspect or even the self-defense or combatives aspect aspect it was the you know the the mental challenge and the the 3D mental and physical chess and the almost physical like um meditation that accompanies it because you're so singularly focused on one thing which in a world of YouTube and smartphones and iPads and everything becomes increasingly more difficult to focus on one thing at a time and that's been the biggest unintended positive consequence for it for me is is the mental health. Again, not that I've ever struggled with that very fortunately and and thank God that that's been the case. I've never found myself in a situation where I felt like I was struggling mentally at all. Um but even with that again, just kind of like finding Christ, not looking for it, I started jujitsu and even though I felt, you know, like I'm in a pretty good place mentally, I still found you know, a supercharging of that that feeling and that effect of of a calmness. And I also think the the confidence that you gain uh in training for, you know, long enough to get to where it's like, okay, I kind of feel like I know what I'm doing at least a little bit. That that confidence is the same level of confidence that I feel from carrying, from having a very capable dog, for having my house set up with cameras, with door devils, with blast proof glass, with solid core doors, you know, with with certain things to make it more difficult for somebody to to break into or to a, you know, attack our house or whatever. The thing with that though is that you always have it, you know, you may not have your dog, you may not have your gun. Uh that confidence that you gain from you know, some pretty good size young athletic dude rolling through the door and and and you can not just hang with them, but control them and realize, man, I like I feel pretty capable. You know, there's always somebody tougher, but I feel like, you know, no matter what, somebody's going to have to earn it even if they get the best of me. Like they're they're not going to get away scot-free or probably not. And um that you that that I think avalanches, like it it becomes almost addictive that that feeling, the endorphins, the adrenaline the the cortisol dump, the dopamine hit of of progressing and getting better. And there's so many parallels between life of the peaks and valleys that jiu-jitsu is, whether it's injuries or training plateaus or frustrations or hiccups or busy schedules, you know, you you you have to manage expectation. You have to, you know, figure out how to stay calm. And one of the nice things about the SEAL Teams is you you do get a lot of practice at staying calm in really difficult and dangerous situations. Uh some of them translate, most of them translate, I would say, to jiu-jitsu, but but it's always good to continue to to put yourself in positions where you have to force yourself to think through them even though you're uncomfortable or uh you know, almost out of air or or whatever. And so, um all of those things kind of combined is what made me start to get back into it. And then, just the more I did it, the more I wanted to do it. And and as I've progressed, I, you know, continue to enjoy it. Now, I will say my kind of thought process or in intention behind doing it is different, I think, than most in that I approach it the same way I approach everything everything else. I try to be hyper consistent really in in all areas of my life. I digest and and obtain jiu-jitsu knowledge the same way I approach the Bible, the same way I approach really anything is I dive headfirst. But, and that but is I I always try to be really intentional to not overwhelm myself. And also to stick to the basics. If there's one thing that I learned at a very early age in the SEAL Teams is that um you know, one of we use many adages. Half of them are not appropriate. 90% of them are not appropriate for for uh this show, but um you know, like a lot of people say, "Train until you get it right." You know, and and one of the things we kind of live by is don't train until you get it right, train until you can't get it wrong. You only do that by doing the basics and you and you master the basics and if I was never at at DevGroup, but the Tier One guys, like I've I know a ton of them and and that's one of the things that that they talk about pretty religiously is, you know, they they spend so much time on a flat range from 5 to 15 m doing the very basic stuff so many times to where they never have to think about it again and so I I approached jiu-jitsu that same way where I know what my limitations are physically. I For my age, I think I'm maybe above average athleticism and take probably better care of myself than a lot of guys my age, but I'm not 32. Um I'm never going to be that from a physical prowess standpoint at that level that I was at that age and so, you know, I tailor my goals, my training methodology, my schedule even to how often I train and how hard I train and who I train with and and communicating kind of what I'm trying to accomplish and reminding my coach uh and any potential training partners of that all the time because I I'm here for these reasons and really these reasons only and it's not to compete, whether it's, you know, straight jiu-jitsu competitions or even MMA. Um you know, I have no no um desire, like I don't care if I get a black belt or not. I mean, would I have loved to have had one by the time I'm 50? Sure, but I don't really care and I'm probably not going to have it at this rate, but um but it doesn't matter. I mean, to me it's wanting to be as capable as I can be, but for the long haul. I I don't want to, you know, get over my skis of of training so much to where it's taking away from other things in my life. I don't want to focus so heavy on getting the next promotion or you know, trying to enter this competition or whatever to where it takes away from the core belief system that I have of why I started training in the first place, which is to be as competent and capable as possible should the need arise for me to to actually go hands-on with somebody in a real-life scenario. And so that's been kind of the backbone of it all. Well, you're hitting a lot of things. Like I remember early on in white belt, there was uh someone that got promoted. And in my mind, I was like, "Well, they're not very good. Like I beat them every time we roll, right? Why are they getting promoted?" And looking back on even just who I was mentally when I got started cuz like I started at the age of 30, it's like, "God, you just had such a stupid, ignorant view of what this is because it's not how where do you rank against everyone else at that belt level? It's a good academy will evaluate you at your age, your level of uh training, the frequency with which you train, whether you're training to compete, training to fight, or just training to be a capable human being. And who are you compared to the guys that are in your age range, around your athletic ability, and your size? Yeah. So, there are guys that have their purple belts that would get smoked by a So, let's say you're a 50-year-old purple belt. And some kid walked in that wrestled at Oklahoma State and he's got three stripes on his white belt, and he's got, you know, world-class takedowns and control, and he's 40 lb stronger than you. He's more athletic, he's faster, and all of that. Can he beat you? Yes. You know, go to a tournament and put on that red belt, you know, so they know who gets what points and whatever, you're probably going to get beat, right? You may even get finished. But where are you at in terms of guys that are around your size, at your age, your level of training, at your belt? And I'll say for me, I know when everything started to slow down and I felt like, "Oh, I kind of know what I'm doing." It was at some point in purple belt, right? Now, I remember when I got my purple belt, Rush Welman, who was my my first jiu-jitsu instructor, and you know, he was a purple belt at the time, and he's still a purple belt, but I remember him telling me when I got my purple belt, he's like, "You're a certified butt kicker now. Like, that's all things being equal, you're not going to lose a street fight. Now, if a guy that's, you know, 6'8" with abs and super jacked and has tremendous physical advantages, like, you might still be able to beat him, but you're going to lose some brain cells, and you know, there's going to be a pound of flesh that's going to have to happen. But, I just remember purple belt being like, "Oh, everything has slowed down." Yeah. Like, everything has slowed down now, where, kind of like what you said earlier, even if I can't stop what the other person is doing, I know what they're doing. Even if I can't do what I want to do, I know what I want to do. I know the position I want to be in, I want to know kind of all that. But, for you, where along your journey did you feel like, not, "Hey, I'm good. I don't need to do this anymore." but it's like, "Hey, things have slowed down enough to where I feel like, yes, I I kind of have an idea of what I'm doing." Really the same. I would say probably the the first stripe on my purple belt that was the case. Um, you know, I I would say when I got purple, so my I've had two coaches. The first coach I had was the guy that grew up under the Marcelo Garcia uh gym and academy in Dallas. >> You want to talk about killers. >> Yeah, and and was uh you know, I would say pretty heavy into the MMA scene, grappling in MMA scene in in the North Texas, or, you know, that region of the country even for for a number of years. Very good kickboxer and just all around really good fighter. Um, spent the first three three and a half years with him. The last three three and a half years or so I've been uh with a guy named Rodrigo Lopes who the the gym's called North South in Dallas, and uh very competitive gym, very high level. Um, lots of you know world-class competitors at every every age and belt and you know he's he's been in in MMA fighter for a couple years now and you know lots of accolades what have you. Two very at first distinct different styles you know the the first three and a half years was very catch wrestling MMA grappling not maybe as technically sound but effective for what I'm looking for. It was a great fit. >> and can be more brutal certainly. >> For sure. Um and then the last three and a half years at first it was you know kind of hyper technical compared to what I was used to which was was good because I hadn't been focusing as much on maybe such clean technique but as he's kind of progressed through his career and gotten more and more into MMA fighting and and now has done a few MMA fights with a a world-class mean one of the best in the world coaches there's been this cool transformation that we've kind of come back to that. So I've I've kind of had a very fortunate nice kind of 50/50 to both sides. Um to your question though I would say when when Rodrigo gave me my first stripe at purple is is around the time where I really felt like this this makes sense now. When I first got purple belt it was a little bit of imposter syndrome but very quickly I I reminded myself two things. Number one is that you know A don't sell yourself short ever you know I mean don't be overly confident but you know have have confidence in your own ability but the the broader question and this is for anybody out there that experiences that. I would ask you for anybody who gets promoted and questions whether or not they deserve it. To to me that that's actually a a bigger problem than I think people realize and not for the individual themselves but for your coach is that to me if you're questioning your coach's opinion and judgment on when you progress and promote, you shouldn't be training with that guy. Right. >> You know, I mean, to me, it's really that simple is that if you don't trust him enough to promote you, why are you training with him? And and just turning that kind of paradigm on its head and looking at it from that perspective, I like that imposter thing went away immediately. It's one thing if somebody asked you to come speak and you're like, "Dude, what you're asking me to come talk?" You know, but to me, with jiu-jitsu, when you're paying a coach to evaluate and and put you through your path and and determine when you're ready to promote to the next stripe, the next belt, etc., you either trust him or you don't. And if you don't, pick somewhere else where you're not going to feel that way. Well, I remember like you're you're speaking on a lot of stuff that I that I felt because when I got my blue belt, and again, it's embarrassing to say it, but I I tried to lay myself out there in all my faults as well. I felt entitled to my blue belt. I felt like I had been a blue belt and then when I got it, I was like, "Yeah, I deserve this." But when I got promoted to purple, I remember saying a week or two before promotion because the Forge and Eden, we do promotion nights typically two days a year where where you'll have people go, you know, from kids all the way to adults, you know, we'll get promoted. And it's kind of big bull in the ring style for several hours and you know, that kind of a thing and you know, we'll have 50, 60 people just coming in rotating in on us at all times. And I remember about a week or two before promotion night for purple belt, somebody asked me, they're like, "Hey, Kai, you ready to ready to get your new belt?" Like no one knows until that night, right? Like who's getting promoted for the most part. And I said, "Dude, I'm closer to white belt than I am to purple. That's that's where I'm at in my journey." And I And that was not like faux like a humility. That was legit. I was like, "I do not feel like I'm closer to purple belt." And when we got to promotion night cuz everybody shows up because it's your job. You're either going to get promoted or you're going to be there to help someone else get promoted. So you as a teammate, you got to be there. They called my name to test for a purple and I was like, "Oh, no. This is a disaster. Not like I wasn't going to get through the gauntlet, but I was like, "I'm not a freaking purple belt. Like, what what is happening?" And so, go through the ringer, get my purple belt and all that. And almost immediately I had that exact same realization that you just talked about. I was like, "Do I really want to disagree with the black belts at our academy as to what they think I am? Because if they think I'm a purple belt, then that's exactly what I am." Yeah. And our our gym doesn't have a a huge reputation of sandbagging cuz some gyms will sandbag so that they can keep winning tournaments, right? So, you'll have a guy that's clearly a purple belt, but he'll keep running off gold medals at these blue belt tournaments and finally gets to a point where some of the over other coaches from other academies will talk to the coaches and be like, "Hey, man. Like, we get it. Y'all promote slowly, but come on. Like, you know, this guy's clearly advanced past this. Like, it's time for them to get their belt." And then I try to tell people cuz I'll talk to frustrated white belts and blue belts about, "Oh, I haven't been promoted yet or I haven't got a stripe in months and blah blah or whatever thing is." And I'm like, "Bro, you do not want to be the worst purple belt on the planet. You would much rather be one of the baddest blue belts in your area. That's what you would rather be." And then I remember when I got my brown belt because typically the longest gap is at blue belt, right? The gap between white and purple's typically the longest. And then when I got my brown belt, I didn't really have any of those thoughts. I was like, "Okay. Wasn't expecting the brown belt." Got called to test to test for it and I got my brown belt. I trust my uh my coaches. I I trust the professors. I trust the people making that call. But with each successive belt, you have to reckon with defending what that piece of dyed cloth means, right? And so, cuz I know guys that have quit at purple belt. I mean, plenty of quit at white belt and blue belt, but they get all the way to purple belt and then they just kind of ah, it's good enough. I know guys that have gotten to brown belt and have stopped training. And for me I'm like, that's crazy. Like you're you're knocking on the door. Like just keep the mat time going and you'll eventually get your black belt. And then I know guys that have gotten their black belt and then stopped training. Yeah. And it's teach their own. I'm I'm I'm certainly not here to judge, you know, their their training regimen or or how where they're at in their life and what they find to be important. But with each successive belt you look back and I actually do this on my show cuz I'll record an episode. Well, I have one called blue belt. I have one called purple belt and I have one called brown belt. And I kind of look back on the lessons that I've learned about jiu-jitsu, about myself over that time period. And when I try to tell these adult males that I just pound all the time like, you got to train. You got to train. You got to train. Cuz I want them to have the same benefits that I did. Because jiu-jitsu will reveal things about you physically and mentally, right? If you're a little bit soft in your body, jiu-jitsu's going to reveal that. If you're a little bit overweight, if you're a little bit underweight, if you're a little weak, if you're a little bit too inflexible, jiu-jitsu's going to expose that. But if you've got some detrimental parts of your personality ego being the biggest one, right? Jiu-jitsu's going to expose that. And for a lot of guys, it's ego that keeps them from training because you know, we've had guys that used to play in the NFL that will roll into our gym and here they are, they've been throwing bodies around and people around and dominating people for their entire lives. And then they get in there and some 16-year-old kid wraps them up in a pretzel and they're immobile. They can't move. And the level of frustration grows. And then basically they leave, they never train again, and then they just have some sort of hermeneutic in their brain of like, ah well, that wasn't a real life situation and had it been like a real situation, I would have just seen red and bodies would have started to fall and all that. And like, aside from that being not even close to to being true, it's that person has lost an opportunity to develop as a man because they ran into their ego and they internalized this and said, "I don't need to do this. It's not going to matter." Or, "I'm just going to go shoot more at the range and all that." But, it's exactly what you said. I asked these guys, "What if you get in a fight at an airport, right? What if you're traveling without your firearm? You're on vacation with your family. You're on a road trip or something like that. It's you and the bad guy at the gas station in the parking lot. You don't have a blade. You don't have a firearm. You have nothing. You have you. You have your limp wrists and your untrained body." And so, it's like, "What do you expect to do?" But, that that's been the biggest thing for me on the jiu-jitsu side is you don't know what you don't know about yourself. Even if you're a really introspective guy, you need the kinetic nature of what that hobby or sport is to kind of show you those things about yourself. 100% and and for me, you know, starting at 40, you know, if I look back and and kind of ingest some of the things that you just mentioned, that it lines up pretty exact, you know, and and for me, I think ego was the biggest thing that I needed to get rid of at 40, you know, and and because you know, going through SEAL training at 18 and spending 12 years in in that environment, which is a long enough time to where I would never say that I was, you know, an expert SEAL, but you're good enough to feel kind of similar like, I know what I'm doing. It's always, you know, better guys. The first few years in the SEAL teams is very similar to the first few years in jiu-jitsu where you feel like, "Dude, I'm never going to be good at this, you know? Like, I have no Like, I'm watching these guys who've been here for 10 years and and they're like Jedis and I'm never going to be that." But, then you get to that point and and feel like you you at least have some idea what's going on and then, you know, at that same time, I'm I've been working with and training dogs most of my life, jump right into that and or transition into that and then spend, you know, a long time doing that and becoming, you know, what what I think a lot of people probably within the industry would consider as a you know, subject matter expert to a certain extent at least within some realms of dog training. And being asked to come speak at national conferences where there's, you know, a thousand handlers from all over the world coming to to attend myself and a handful of other instructors classes and so in in both of those areas there there very if you look at Jiu-Jitsu as in the broad scope of American society like what it's viewed as it's a very masculine alpha male, you know, kind of thing, you know, that people do. Well, so is being a seal and and so is being a a dog trainer of of dogs who, you know, work for military and police and so like I'd spent really all of my adult life or, you know, the the middle part of my adult life, the last decade plus being in a position where I was respected and and felt like I was kind of near, you know, the upper echelons of the industry. You know, again, if you look at SEAL Teams compared to the military you know, military and police dog trainers compared to dog trainers or just, you know, within society of dog owners, which most people are is it that that's kind of a notch above and and and looked at that way. And then you go as a 40-year-old accomplished businessman and SEAL and dog trainer and whatever and into a a mat where you're getting just absolutely clowned over and over and >> That's why it's like the perfect workout. >> and over and over and over by people that, you know, if I ran into them at a gas station, I wouldn't look twice at them and I would be like, not to say I'm better than this guy, but there there is a feeling of ego and confidence of like when I look at at my life as a snapshot how is this guy doing to me what he's doing to me? Especially when I come from these industries that are very double A personality, very highly respected from the warrior ethos type of mentality. And and for me, that was by far the biggest benefit that I got from jiu-jitsu was completely leveling my ego and and putting it in my back pocket and and never really letting it out again other than when it seems like it's going to be actually productive. Um and I I feel like it's done so much for me in in that way of of really balancing my ego out, which has that would say cascaded into so many other aspect every other aspect of my life, whether it's my relationship with my kids of being calmer and more present and more balanced and and more even-keeled with them and and you know, any professional relationship of not taking things personally or wanting to get back at somebody or uh you know, even personal relationships similar like being kind and and not allowing you know, any part of my ego to to inject itself in a in a way that's counterproductive or at least compared to what I I was prior to to starting that journey. It certainly tempered a significant amount and so you know, to to me that that by itself for me uh was life-changing. No doubt about it. Well, so I want to go back to what you were talking about in terms of doing the basics because we live in the era where everyone's trying to hack everything. Everything's a bio hack and so it's like, you know, and and look, I I love listening to Huberman and and Peter Attia and and and some of those guys and um yeah, if there's things that I can do that are simple modifications to my life that are going to make me 5% better mentally while I'm preparing a podcast or doing an interview or or writing something like sure. Like I want to find those things. You know, I don't want to do things that are going to hurt me physically. I don't want to do things that are going to set me back or you know, I'm getting a boat a boost now, but I'm deleting years off the end of my life or whatever that thing is. And so I kind of take that same attitude into everything that I do, what I ingest, what I end up doing, whatever. But, some people think that they can hack jiu-jitsu by doing more things that are more complicated than the basics, okay? And so, maybe they're white belt, blue belt level, ghee, no ghee, it doesn't really matter. And so, they they will sacrifice mat time or drilling time and they will maximize the brutal, you know, 2-hour open mat classes where it's just round after round after round. They'll go get some Danaher videos and they'll study those. They'll they'll scroll like their algorithm just basically shows them tournament and, you know, jiu-jitsu stuff. And then, yeah, they're they're looking at all these very complicated guards, right? Uh maybe they're doing donkey guard or Z guard or octopus guard or something like that. Maybe they end up being attracted to things that don't even fit their body. Your favorite, the rubber guard. >> Yeah, of course, rubber guard. But, like, you know, you have someone that's inflexible that's trying to become a rubber guard guy. You have someone that's built like a bowling ball, like with no neck and short arms and short legs, and they're trying to, you know, darce choke everybody or trying to like triangle everybody. It's like, you know, your body's not super meant for that kind of a game. But, it's like they think they're going to game the system or or get better so much faster by looking at the complicated things. And so, they spend all this time, you know, worried about Berimbolo and worried about all these different things that they can't even spell. And they don't know how to do a sufficient takedown that's going to work on most opponents. They're they're not worried about being able to much less get to side control, just hang on to side control, to finish the north-south choke, to get to mount and not just get bucked off immediately, you know, head and arm choke, uh guillotine, RNC, maintaining back control. These very, very basic things. And what I try to, you know, yeah, impose or at least encourage in some of these younger guys in jiu-jitsu is like, look at the Gracies and specifically look at Rickson Gracie, okay? And right now it's Royce because of UFC 1 and 2 and you know, bringing jiu-jitsu to the world and introducing everyone to this superpower through this, you know, unassuming package. Guy that weighed about 170 lb and wasn't jacked or whatever. Rickson was always the guy. If you read his book, you can see whenever he beat his brother and he became the family champion and back in those days that was the gym storm days where guys would just show up at the gym and say, "This doesn't work. I'm about to prove it. Let's go." And Rickson had to answer the call, right? He was always the one that answered the call. He was the family champion. And he dominated people with the basics, right? And some of my favorite stories of Rickson is when he would go and do these seminars. So, he's got these black belt seminars, right? And at the end of the seminar, he would just line up the black belts and tap everyone one at a time. He would even let them start with him in a bad position. So, he would let them start on his back with the rear naked choke in and he would work from there. And then he would tell this black belt and he wasn't doing it to embarrass them. He's like, "I'm going to armbar your your left arm." Or hey, "I'm going to shoulder lock your your your right side." And so, you know what he's trying to do and you just can't stop it. He was never inverting. He was never doing any of these obscure guards. You might be like, "Well, it hadn't been invented yet." But he dominated people with the basics. Look at someone like Marcelo Garcia. Not a very big guy. Yeah. Right? And what he was able to do in his competitive career was astonishing given his his physical limitations. But how was he beating people? Razor-sharp technique. And then look at the greatest, it's not really arguable, but the greatest no-gi grappler of all time, Gordon Ryan. Gordon will say it and also John Danaher, his main professor, will say it. He's not very athletic. He's not quick. He's not fast. Now, when he was, you know, when his blood type was essentially Tropicana, at his juiciest, of course he was strong, but he didn't beat Andre Galvao at the super fight at ADCC because he was so jacked. He beat him with razor sharp technique. He does everything perfectly and he essentially doesn't make mistakes in competition. And yet, with all that knowledge, you still have, especially these young guys, they're they're not drawn to the basics. They don't want to drill. They don't even want to do basic positional sparring because they're attracted by all like the super sexy stuff. I would even take it a step further in that, you know, it I I think it's easy or convenient for people to look at Jiu-Jitsu as as a singular thing, as a as a competition or a sport, and minimize the yeah, but street fight, right? That there there's some application, but it's not a one-to-one. Proving your point or trying to help you make the point, you know, the the most real-world petri dish application of what works and doesn't, you know, to the closest thing to a real-world scenario that exists is MMA fighting. Yep. You know, in the in the last 10-plus years of of the UFC and and any other uh division or or group that that puts on those fights, the Dag- if you watch the Dagestanis, they're beating guys like Charles Oliveira with a head and arm choke and and like we said earlier, making him panic tap to something which is one of the first things you learn how to do in Jiu-Jitsu. Yeah, here, don't lose your train of thought. Just so everyone knows, this was Islam Makhachev. This is at 155. Charles Oliveira at this point in his UFC career had the record for most submissions in the history of the UFC, right? Which is, you know, a testament to his longevity, but also his tremendous skill set. He's so un- unbelievably good at jiu-jitsu. And when Islam Makhachev transitioned to the side to finish the head and arm choke, one of the best jiu-jitsu practitioners ever panic taps. And a panic tap is oh my gosh, like it's so fast and it's so brutal. Which and he does he does kind of like that modified darce where he doesn't come all the way to the bicep, he stops at his forearm. And you know, we messed around with that at at the forge and some other places trying to figure out how he's doing that. And what that is is a testament is he has been squeezing people and things since he was a baby, right? And again, but yeah, back back to your point, the Dagestanis are basically mastering the basics. >> Yeah, I mean that they're they're beating people who like Charles is a a world-class multi-world champion jiu-jitsu practice practitioner just at jiu-jitsu. Yep. But you look at what they practice and train, none of it is super fancy, you know, and again going back to whether it's the Dev Group stuff or dog training is that you know, really everything and this is why I I tend to approach really every aspect of my life including faith with let me look at the basic core tenants and that's what I'm going to focus on and until I feel like I can move on from that or need to move on from that or even have any interest in moving on from that, I'm just going to focus on this until I can't get it wrong. But you know, there's another component to that that incorporates jiu-jitsu, catch wrestling, regular wrestling, grappling and it really boils down to a domination of hip strength and position. Yeah. And they're so good at balance, center of gravity, and moving their body around to make it oppressive on you and difficult for you to keep them from doing it and they're so good at it that they they dominate everybody, you know, and and you cannot argue with the track record of of people from that region who have grown up in that type training methodology and in adhering to those core principles and just destroying everybody, you know, and and it's very very basic stuff, but they just practice those things so many times and get so razor sharp at those basic techniques that they can't or or they they can um complete them on people that that are world-class that can't keep them from doing it. And to me I I don't know I mean what more proof could you need to know what to focus on? Well, I even tell like so for guys, you know, I've encouraged them you know, when it comes to training, I don't think that's optional. But then we have to get into okay, so what do we train? Does any martial arts is it will any martial art do? No. Like I tell people all time, it's like it's got to be a real martial art that's been proven in the crucible of simulated battle, which is mixed martial arts. And so what are the modalities that are constantly used by the people that are the best? It's wrestling, it's jiu-jitsu, it's western boxing, it's kickboxing, it's Muay Thai, it's judo, it's those types of things. It's not wing chun, it's not kung fu, it's not krav maga, it's not any of these, you know, aikido, it's not any of those things. And the the easy proof is how many people in the history of the UFC that, you know, competed at a high level were in the top 10 were primarily speaking their number one modality was karate. I'm thinking of Lyoto Machida, Stephen Wonderboy Thompson. That's the list, okay? Now, which ones were kung fu guys? Can't name one. Which ones were aikido guys? Can't name them, right? Even judo hasn't had a lot of, you know, you've you've got someone like Kayla Harrison or Ronda Rousey, you had Carl Parisien back in the day, those were mainly judo was like their main thing. But the one thing now is a little bit different. The the the main status of the UFC it's kind of all over the place. But consistently over the 30-plus years of mixed martial arts being a sport, an actual sport with rule sets and all those different things. It has been wrestling, jujitsu, Western boxing, kickboxing. Yeah. Th- Those are the main things that work out well because people are like, "Well, hey, you mentioned Muay Thai." Well, the Muay Thai stance is not super conducive to stopping a takedown. Yeah. Right? And it puts your body in different positions. Well, then they're like, "Well, hey, how are these MMA fighters losing in boxing matches?" I was like, "Because boxing is one thing." Your stance as an MMA fighter can't be a boxing stance cuz you'll just get taken down or you'll get your legs kicked into oblivion. But there's a reason why boxers are not coming over to MMA. Because if Floyd Mayweather took one leg kick, fight's probably over. And all these fancy punches and combinations and all that don't work when your shoulders are on the mat. Or on the on on, you know, the the ground or anything. But that's the other thing about the Dagestani style that you know, everyone gets to choose what they want to be. Do you want to be competitive? Do you want to just be a good guy in the gym? Do you just want to train periodically? Everyone has their own goals. But as you and I talked about at breakfast, you know, being influenced by, you know, Rolland and working out with guys like Robichaud. And I think Robichaud's a, you know, four fourth stripe black belt, so legit guy. I don't want my brain to default to something in a real-world scenario that would not be conducive to dominating that real-world scenario. And so there's something with competition jujitsu, which a lot of people have complained about. It's It's the butt scooting thing. It's slap, bump, sit. And then they sit and they're just kind of like scooting towards their opponent. In the kinetic parking lot situation, and this guy is trying to knock your head off, are you going to sit on the ground and start scooting across the asphalt? Is that what you're going to do? Because one of the reasons why the Dagestanis are so dominant, they're not playing guard Never. >> at all. They're getting the takedown, right? And then they're dominating top position, and then they're they're at least controlling the fight and/or finishing the fight because when you're in top position, not only are you holding your partner down, but now they're also having to deal with gravity cuz they're below you and with how gravity works you've got gravity on your side if you're in top position. Now if you're guard player if you like pulling guard all those different things and and you do a lot of sports jiu-jitsu and competition jiu-jitsu totally fine. Like even if you're a dominant wrestler you need to learn the guard like I'm I'm pro all those things. But I'll say for me and for what sounds like with what you've done as well you're trying to make sure most of your reps are in positions where you will be dominant. Right? Where cuz again in a real world scenario it's not just collar chokes and and positioning. You can punch. You can elbow. Like you can stab. You can you can do all these different things and if I'm in a kinetic situation where I don't know how many people are involved I would much rather have you on your back me and Neil on belly and me have my head up to where I can feel where you are so I can keep you at bay and do is one of your buddies trying to come up and soccer kick my head into the next county. And again but if you end up on the bottom you have to be able to get out from that and again that's why I'm saying hey you still should know a little bit of guard. But again if you're just a guy that's trying to be more martial in in your abilities and to have that in your repertoire like you've got to make sure you're dominating in becoming dominant in positions that would actually be useful in real life. I couldn't agree more and I I think uh you know one of the ways that not that anybody's asking us to you know reinvent jiu-jitsu competitions but what I would like to see even from a if you're trying to grow the sport from a spectator base and from a a general interest is you know something as simple as from a whatever rule set whether it's IBJJF or ADCC or NAGA whatever um is that if you deduct two points for pulling guard like I think that that would stop a lot of that. It would. Yep. You know is that you know if you find yourself you know in a in a inferior position I e on your back, that's two points. Like that would fix a lot of that problem, I think. I I don't know why they don't do that, but whatever. I mean, again, it's to each their own. If you know, for people that enjoy that and and like the technical sport aspect of it and that's what they're into, more power to you. Um I'm right there with you. I mean, for me like I I want to understand and and be effective enough at guard to one to be able to protect myself and two to be able to get out of it and and ultimately either stand up or reverse it and now end up in a dominant position because similarly like I don't ever want to be on my back if if I don't have to. You know, yeah, I if the guy is so much physically superior to me to where the only way I can finish it is from there, then yes, I need and want to to be able to to do that. But that's not going to be my my MO. That's not going to be my strategy is to put myself in that position ever. It's it's always going to be the exact opposite. Well, yeah, and you have you also have to look at, okay, how do most matches normally progress in terms of the point scoring? There's typically two points for a takedown. Okay, and then you get points for passing. And then okay, you're going to get points for knee on belly, and then points for mount, and then you you work for the submission. That's That's how a lot of schools and a lot of places will kind of teach that. But one of the things that you have to remember as well is how can I best neutralize the advantage that the person I'm going against has? Okay? So, yeah, and again, if you're a guard player, which I would say there are world champion guard players that always play guard, and their game is predicated on the the guard pull. They pull guard and then they sweep or they pull guard and they submit or something like that. Again, I'm pro all of those things, and if that's your thing, keep working at baby. Keep sharpening that sword. The thing that I would add to the conversation is is there are some people that have just distinct physical advantages to you. So, I'm 5'10 195 lb, okay? Uh as some guys at my gym would call, I am victim weight, right? Because I weigh less than 200 lb, right? But like we have this guy at the gym, he's purple belt, he's really good, his name's Carl. Well, he is 6'4" 280. And he's lost weight to get to 280. And when I say lost weight, he wasn't sloppy. He was just farm strong, like deadlifting 800 lb, probably just carrying around hay bales for the fun of it, just like thick, big wrists, you know, big legs that just it's hard to deal with. So, if we're standing, right? There's a distinct physical disadvantage for me when we are standing, right? But if I can get the fight to the ground where I am on top, I've now negated his size, a lot of it, right? Now, he's got the ability to just bench press me off of him and he can do things. And I And I am not one of those guys that says don't use your strength. Forget all that. Use your strength, right? Cuz it takes strength you It takes for most For the most part, it takes a lot of effort to become strong. Some people are naturally strong and then they can add to it. Some people are not naturally strong and they can add to it. And so I would never tell someone don't use your strength. You should know how to use the technique. You You should know how to do it without using strength. But if you have strength, use it. And the reason why I say that is because people that are flexible, you never hear a coach say, "Don't use your flexibility." Yeah. Don't use your cardio. >> Yeah, don't don't use your cardio. Like don't use your brain, right? Some people are just their brains they can see seven steps ahead, whereas for the most part, like my game is more a step at a time, maybe one or two steps ahead, right? And so I want you to use everything that is at your disposal. But if your opponent is significantly bigger and stronger than you and you can't take them to the ground and end up in a dominant top position, you're going to be at a deficient uh in a deficient position the entirety of the interaction. And it's like you should work to make sure that you're on the better part of that ledger. Yeah, I mean I I agree wholeheartedly. I I don't have much to add. I mean it it's just I feel the exact same way about it and and I would say adhere to all those same principles. Well, here as we're kind of we're kind of rounding to a close. We've talked about a lot of different things. I'm just curious for you as you kind of evolve into this this next era of life, right? So, as an entrepreneur, as a podcast host, as as a trainer, all the things that you're doing, like what are the things that you're that you're looking at doing? Cuz I I get the same questions probably that you do like, hey, we just going to do the podcast for the next 10, 20 years, release three episodes a week, is that what we're doing? But like, when you when you look at kind of things that you're doing and the things you're wanting to accomplish, like are you going to be making any significant changes or or what's kind of caught your eye? I mean, for me the at the risk of sounding boring or even vague, I don't you know, it's the first time in my life where I don't really have a plan that way, you know, I'll continue to you know, the Warrior Dog Foundation is a is a big part of what I do and and frankly who I am. You know, it's a mission very near and dear to my heart. >> and explain that for everybody that's not familiar. So, you know, we we take in former military, police, federal, you know, working dogs basically that arrive at a point in their career where whatever entity they're with has had so many problems with them behaviorally and and aggression-wise that they're opting to euthanize them versus either retiring them and re- or re-homing them or whatever and and that's where we step in. So, the overwhelming majority of working dogs get retired to their handler or somebody else in the unit that's familiar with them. That's most of them, but there are the the kind of Hannibal Lecters out there that just do not play well with others and and have certain quirks and things behavioral ticks about them that make it, you know, too much of a liability to do that with them and and instead of euthanizing them, that's where we'll step in and take them. And so, you know, I started in August of 2010, so I've been doing it 16 years almost. Taken in hundreds of dogs from everywhere. I mean, you know, military, police, special operations, Secret Service, Customs, Border Patrol, you name it. And and I want to continue to have the the foundation be a resource for dogs like that so that they can live out their their lives in in dignity and grace and not just be euthanized when when they're done with them. Um so I'll continue to do that until uh either somebody else kind of takes the helm or uh you know, ideally I would love for us to not even need to exist. You know, the one thing that I a lot of people don't realize there's no federal funding or grants for retired working dogs, whether it's military, police, whatever. And I think that that's a a a travesty. B, it's also a problem and then and that's why we exist. So uh in a perfect world the government would stand up maybe regional facilities where dogs who fall into that category go and and are taken care of by the government the same way say the VA would would be set up. But until something like that happens or I get to an age or a point in my life where I just really can't do it anymore, I'll I'll continue to do that as long as I need to. The online training, the podcast, the personal protection dogs, that you know, police or military stuff, similarly I'll keep doing it until I either don't want to do it anymore or it just doesn't make sense to. Dog food company, same exact thing. Um you know, I'll continue to to to have it and and operate it in in tele it either doesn't make sense or I I just don't want to do it anymore. The the neat thing about kind of where I'm at and and why it's so exciting for me to uh rediscover faith from uh such a magnitudinal standpoint is uh it's the first time in my life my kids are grown, they're they're out of the house and in school and and you know, everything I have professionally is been going long enough to where, you know, the learning curve isn't drinking from a fire hose and I can be pretty efficient at it without having to work 140 hours a week and and so I I have this kind of time to really be able to dedicate to exploring and deepening my faith in a way that I've just never had that I shouldn't say I've never had that I think you we all have our choices you can you can spend your time day in day out however you want but I never felt like it it was inappropriate thing to to focus on wrong right or indifferent is that I I finally professionally personally all things kind of moons being aligned are in a position where I I really want to spend you know a significant portion of my time deepening that and exploring it further and and spending time you know in in nature meditating talking to God to you know researching reading just you know really taking almost a kind of spiritual phase for for lack of better description of my life of of really focusing heavy on that and you know I'll continue to train Jiu-Jitsu as long as it again it makes sense or I can and and even with all of that as kind of here's what I have going on here's what I want to do I I want to backdrop that with the context of I'm always looking looking upstairs and saying use me as a tool however you see fit and you're calling the shots now I'm I'm along for the ride and and just the peace and solace that I take in that again not being irresponsible with it and just being you know I don't have the the Muslim inshallah approach of like well if God wants me to get out of bed today then I will I guess he didn't and so I'm sticking in bed like I'm not taking it to that extreme it's it's more of a you know I'm I'm looking and asking for guidance day in day out and and and wherever wherever I find direction from from him in the process is is where I'm going Well we've talked about a lot of stuff at the table but that's all for me. Anything else you want to get off your chest? Uh no, I just you know, I I well, yes. Um not get off my chest, but I I I want to mention and reiterate one, I I appreciate you having me come back on the show and in person cuz they're always always better in person, but uh two, I I want to thank you for being um the uh the inspiration that you've been from a from a faith and as a man, as a husband, as a father. Um you know, to me it's it's um you know, I almost get kind of choked up uh saying it, but I'm just thankful for for you, for our friendship, and um you know, for the guidance that you've given me. E- even though it may not have seemed like much, uh you know, I I pay attention to what you do and what you say and and uh you've been a a forceful and positive impact in my life, and I appreciate you. I appreciate you saying that, and uh that's the thing, man. Uh we're brothers, brothers in Christ now, and that's just the way it's got to be. Amen. Amen. Thanks again. Thank you. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook, and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awakens. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. Void Awakens. >> Woo!