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0:30
(Music)
0:50
This is Undaunted Life A Man's Podcast.
0:53
I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
0:56
All right, guys. We've got a special guest on the podcast today.
0:58
His name is Dr. Michael L. Brown.
1:00
So he is the founder and president of Ask Dr. Brown Ministries
1:04
and the president of the Fire School of Ministry.
1:06
He also has a nationally syndicated daily talk show called The Line of Fire.
1:09
And this dude is a very prominent writer.
1:11
He's written over 50 books.
1:13
And today we're going to be focusing in on his last two books that he's written.
1:16
This is part of a series.
1:17
It's called Seize the Moment and Turn the Tide.
1:20
So this is part of the From Revival to Reformation series.
1:23
And so there might be more books in the series, but we get into all that.
1:25
We talk a little bit about John Cooper because John Cooper is a mutual friend of ours.
1:29
But then we really dig into a lot of stuff about how he got his start in ministry.
1:33
But when the Andy Stanley stuff was all going down,
1:36
because, you know, if you listen to this show for any length of time,
1:38
you know, my feelings on Andy Stanley and the way that his ministry has turned
1:42
and gone super negative and how he's a heretic and he's leading his flock astray.
1:46
Well, Dr. Brown was one of the few people that was coming out publicly,
1:49
naming Andy's name specifically and talking about specifically the issues that he was having,
1:54
because he has a one-on-one connection and private connection with Andy Stanley.
1:57
So we spend a good amount of time, maybe 15, 20 minutes digging in to that entire thing.
2:01
But then we start digging into the books.
2:03
We start talking about, you know, what is revival and how can we know what a revival is?
2:06
What's the difference between like a bona fide revival and maybe an artificially long worship
2:11
service, you know, people that are just trying to gin up emotion.
2:14
And we talk about the fact that he hates emotionalism.
2:16
Like there is a true movement of the Holy Spirit.
2:19
And then there's people that are just trying to get you to feel emotions for the sake of feeling
2:22
emotions, but as soon as the father machines turned off and the piano guy, you know,
2:26
stops doing his thing, then you basically it all flies away.
2:29
And so we talk about that, you know, what about if you get ginned up at a Christian concert,
2:33
you raise your hand to accept Christ, but then there's no actual repentance in your life.
2:36
What does that look like?
2:37
But then we dig in specifically to Christians in the political world, but also the culture wars,
2:42
like what are we called to do?
2:44
What about the people that are just like, hey, I want to be known for what I'm for,
2:46
not what I'm against.
2:47
I don't want to get involved in politics.
2:48
And what are the options that people have there?
2:50
But we weaved in and out of a lot of different subject matters.
2:53
I kind of wish, you know, I looked up and I was like, Oh crap, we're out of time.
2:55
And I've got all these more questions.
2:56
But it's an absolutely fantastic interview.
2:58
I know you guys will enjoy it.
2:59
So without further ado, let's get into it.
3:02
Michael Brown, I would do a normal welcome to the show.
3:04
But I got a bone to pick with you right from the beginning because I think you have bad friends
3:09
because you and I have a mutual friend in common.
3:11
And that's John Cooper.
3:12
John Cooper told me that you're one of his favorite people on planet Earth.
3:15
But you know, what does John know?
3:17
So what are we in for today, guys?
3:19
Well, the problem with John is he's not willing to speak up on controversial issues.
3:23
I'm trying to coach him.
3:25
Yeah.
3:25
Trying to help him.
3:26
And the music is so you kind of feel like you're just in a church service with someone playing
3:30
the pipe organ.
3:31
Real soft.
3:32
So there's no edge.
3:32
He's got no edge skill.
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It has no edge.
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It just so I'm trying to get John to speak out a little more and skill it to just be a little
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more aggressive because otherwise it's just like music that some gal would listen to driving
3:44
her kids to Christian school.
3:45
So we got to, you know, but hopefully hopefully they'll get there.
3:48
He's he's good guy.
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Hopefully they'll get there.
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Positive encouraging.
3:52
Skill it.
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That's the tagline.
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I believe that it is.
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But no, we love John Cooper around here.
3:56
He's an absolutely fantastic guy.
3:58
So whenever he says that.
3:59
Yeah.
3:59
Skill it.
4:00
Music.
4:00
Skill it.
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Music leads into my radio show every single day.
4:04
So I've got John and his team singing resistance.
4:07
Yeah.
4:07
We are.
4:07
I call him kid brother.
4:09
We are blood brothers.
4:10
Hey, and I just got to tell you to anybody because I've met quite a few people that have,
4:14
you know, larger followings over the years with different jobs that I've done.
4:17
John and the rest of the band, they are some of the nicest, most genuine people that you
4:22
will ever be around in your entire life.
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Like there's like who they are in the public eye is who they are just hanging out backstage.
4:28
They are absolutely, absolutely fantastic people.
4:30
So looks like we're running in some of the same circles, which is awesome.
4:33
But we're going to dig into a lot of different subjects today.
4:36
And before we get into that though, I guess I'm curious how do you become a professional Christian?
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Because, you know, you've written, you know, 40 plus books.
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You've you've done a whole lot of things in the Christian space.
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This is kind of what you do for a living.
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How did you end up doing that?
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Yeah, I despise the idea of being a professional Christian to be candid.
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And I've preached against being professionals in that regard for years.
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But yeah, ministry is my life and vocation.
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But we often say that ministry is the public extension of who you are in private.
5:05
So it's just that I was doing enough for the Lord that he said, okay,
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I want you doing this all the time.
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But I got saved 1971 as a long haired hippie rock drummer, heroin shooting LSD using 16 year old kid
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Jewish went to a church to pull my friends out.
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And God radically saved me in 1971 called me to start preaching in 73.
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And then I've been at it full time teaching, preaching, writing, ministering from 84 until today.
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And so I do want to ask you a little bit about kind of your teenage years and things like that.
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This is not the point today's discussion, but I do think it's an important thing.
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Whenever you have been in a level of depravity that most, I guess, normal folks are around the
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country would see as extreme, I feel like you have an opportunity to understand the grace of God
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in a different way.
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And so the kid who grew up in Sunday school and always sat in the front of class and always got
5:59
good grades, like, you know, they need the gospel just as much as the drug addict or the prostitute
6:06
or the murderer or something like that. But doesn't it just feel a little bit different to you
6:10
when you realize just the totality of what Christ did in terms of his sacrifice for you?
6:15
Well, on a certain level, of course, I mean, it's extraordinary that he had mercy on someone
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as idiotic and foolish as me and, you know, huffing diesel gas to get high and stuff like that.
6:27
You know, it's just utterly remarkable that he reached down and saved me and allowed me to speak
6:32
to others. You know, the scripture says every way of a man is right in his own eyes. In my eyes,
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I was just having fun. I saw Jimmy Hendricks in concert when I was 13, you know, really wanted to
6:42
be like the rock stars. I had an opportunity to smoke pot at 14 found I had this this high tolerance
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for drugs. So one thing led to another to another. I just was having fun. I thought I was cool and
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partying and all this even stealing money from my own father. I thought was fun. I remember talking
6:58
to another junkie and he told me not to deal with a particular guy, not to give this guy money
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to get drugs for me because he wasn't trustworthy. And this junkie said to me, he said he would steal
7:09
from his own grandmother. And I said, but you told me he's still from your mother? He goes, yeah,
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but I'd never steal from my own grandmother. So the point is we are deeply self deceived as human
7:21
beings. A scripture says every way of a man is right in his own eyes. And I actually thought,
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if you asked me in the height of my sinful drug use, I was cruel, nasty temper, vile mouth,
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untrustworthy, dishonest, I would tell you I'm a pretty good person. And that's that's the deception
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for all of us that when to this day, right, I'm a serious follower of Jesus. I trust that you are.
7:49
But to this moment, if we came into the perfect light of God's holiness, we'd fall down dead,
7:56
that at our best day, seeking to please the Lord with everything in us and not even conscious
8:02
of a single wrong, ugly thing we did, we fall so short of his glory, of his goodness, of his
8:09
standard. You know, I posted the other day, no one struts or puffs their chest in the presence of God.
8:15
So when when you hear people kind of boastful and full of themselves, you realize you've never
8:20
really had an encounter with God. Because when you do, you can be a prophet like Isaiah, and you come
8:26
in the presence of God and say, Whoa, as whoa is me. I'm undone. I'm a man of unclean lips. I mean,
8:34
you suddenly recognize things. And that's that's what happens when the Holy Spirit began to convict
8:40
me. Kyle, no exaggeration. Before conviction, I would lay in bed at night, high on drugs,
8:47
thinking of how cool I was. Look at you, you tricked your friends out of money, you steal money from
8:52
your own dad, you do all these drugs, you are something else. And then days later, because people
8:58
were praying for me, I didn't know what's just happening. I'm laying in bed, high on the same
9:02
drugs feeling like the worst human being on the planet, feeling like an absolute wretch,
9:08
because the Holy Spirit began to reveal my sin. When I think it's important as well for people that
9:14
these people that are very boastful, but also you'll see these ardent atheists that'll be like,
9:18
Well, you know, if God is real, I'm going to give him a piece of my mind when I see him,
9:21
it's like, Well, actually, you'll do nothing. You will absolutely do nothing. You will have no
9:25
voice in that moment. So I do think it's kind of funny whenever you build up our own importance
9:29
in our own brains. Now, before we get into, because I do want to dig into to your latest book,
9:33
seize the moment and turn the tide. I want to talk to you a little bit about some of the public
9:38
comments you've made about Andy Stanley. And so when Andy Stanley was coming out, you know,
9:43
he's had so many kerfuffles here recently. So there's been the unhinged controversy and then all the
9:47
stuff on the LGBTQ stuff in the conference that they hosted at his church. And even recently,
9:52
his comments essentially comparing conservative Christians to Nazis or other people that, you
9:58
know, basically, you know, other, you know, certain people based on their immutable characteristics.
10:04
You're one of the few people that I saw that was making a a public declaration of your issues
10:10
with some of the things that he was saying and espousing publicly while also revealing some
10:15
things personally that you had experience with Andy Stanley. And so I guess my first question would
10:20
be, why did you, why did you feel the need to come out publicly and why name names? Because there
10:25
were some pastors that kind of tried to split the baby as it were and they're like, well, you know,
10:29
there's a prominent pastor in the Atlanta, Georgia area that's been saying this, that and the other
10:33
thing and they would never use a name. And I just, it always struck me as odd. But I was very appreciative
10:38
of you and the work that you were doing around that time to basically call out what he was doing,
10:44
call him out by name and what he was doing by name, but what kind of preceded the decision to do that?
10:48
And so first, let me say I could call out people by name every single day.
10:52
Sure. If I wanted to, if I wanted to build my YouTube views or my social media clicks,
10:57
I could do it every day. I could attack people, I could attack, I could attack the critics,
11:02
you name it, I could find fault with the message with something, raise a question, raise an issue.
11:07
I don't mean I have secret dirt on everybody. I'm just saying if, if that's what I wanted
11:12
to build a ministry on, I'm just, I am the correcter in chief, right, of the body of Christ,
11:18
then I could be doing that every single day. There's enough junk out there, enough mishaps,
11:24
missteps. What happened with Andy Stanley is that, oh, it's going back nine years ago,
11:30
I wrote an article based on statements he had made with honest questions for Andy Stanley
11:35
about homosexuality. Like, where do you actually stand? I'm not clear. So he went after me on Twitter,
11:42
but he was just having fun. He attacked me. How dare you post this without talking to me and so
11:47
on and so forth. And so he said, Hey, I'm just messing with you. I said, and yeah, I'd love to,
11:52
would you clarify these issues with me? So we connected privately. So I've had access to him
11:57
ever since then. We've texted back and forth. We've emailed. We've talked on some occasions,
12:03
never sat face to face. He's always been accessible, gracious. But when I would push, okay, will you
12:10
say that homosexual practice is always wrong under all circumstances? You would never say that.
12:15
Would you say that under no circumstances, God would bless the same sex couple? You wouldn't say
12:21
that. So what happened was when he was going to have the conference, there was a lot of stuff
12:27
swirling. So this would have been what September of last year or something like that. So I knew
12:32
everything's going to hit the fan then. I waited for the actual conference to happen for him to have
12:38
these openly gay men speaking at it for him to preach his message. Then I reached out to him privately.
12:45
And we went back and forth privately because I pressed him for months before it aggressively.
12:51
As aggressively as I could, I rebuked him when he said that when I said when I pressed the issues,
12:57
he said, sometimes ministry preamps clarity. And I rebuked him in an email. I said, Andy,
13:03
that is out of order. Ministry requires clarity. I understand you don't always throw everything
13:10
at somebody. If I'm talking to a lost person, I'm not focusing on that. They drink alcohol
13:15
there, gambling or that. Do you know the Lord? Do you have a relationship? Let's start there.
13:20
We're all sinners. We all fall short. We all need salvation. So in any case, I pressed that
13:25
with him privately. And really until it ended very, very plainly, like he is not budging here,
13:33
I didn't say anything until the conference happened. Once the conference happened,
13:37
I wrote to him and said, Hey, Andy, here's what I'm going to say on the radio today. These are
13:42
the points I'm going to raise. Do you have issue with any of them? Do you feel I'm being unfair
13:47
with any of them? And he said, no, no issue. Would you like to come on the air and give
13:52
your side? So he didn't want to do that. Or did you know, he did it in the past with this
13:57
unhitched thing. We need to get unhitched from the Old Testament. He came on wanted to clarify
14:01
and say it was her own choice of words. So we had that dialogue, leader to leader.
14:05
This is what I'm going to say. Do you have any issue with it? So with a perfectly clean conscience,
14:10
I could go public because look, a lot of people are inaccessible. It's understandable.
14:17
So let's say, Kyle, you're on national news on TV one night and you say something crazy.
14:24
You know, Jesus came back four years ago and we didn't see it. Well, I don't need to necessarily
14:29
contact you before I get on radio and say, Hey, when someone calls and somebody think about it,
14:36
that was wacky. But if you have access to someone, it's imperative or these make the effort to have
14:42
access first. So we had our dialogue. He laid things out. Everything was clear. And it's it is,
14:49
it is deception. He's hurting his flock. He's endangering those with same-sex attractions.
14:55
He's undermining parents ability to help steer their kids in the right direction.
15:00
I understand his care, his concern, what he's wrestled with that he wants a kid with same-sex
15:07
attraction to come to the church rather than run from it. Wonderful. But now give them life
15:14
and transformation, not any kind of affirmation. And because he doesn't champion the idea that
15:21
that gays can change. So he's not going to present that aspect in a strong way either.
15:26
When I appreciate you elucidating all that detail, because I was following that after the
15:32
conference, I was following your commentary because I was making public commentary as well,
15:36
because I did an episode where I called Andy Stanley a Heretic, because whenever you go against
15:40
the orthodoxy of the worldview that you're espousing, that is in and of itself, definitionally,
15:46
heresy. And so for him to maintain these positions that are outside of the Bible,
15:51
that are actually contrary to the Bible, I see it as being just, it's more than deeply problematic,
15:58
but that's the only phraseology that comes to my brain right now. But from your perspective,
16:01
something that I did, I'm rooting for him to lose his ministry. I'm not rooting for something
16:07
for him to disqualify himself because that would involve sin and pain for other people.
16:12
But for a man to have this level of ministry impact, not just on his flock,
16:17
but on the people that pay attention to his ministry, the people that get resources from
16:21
North Point, all the other churches that are connected to them, I'm like, this is so deeply
16:26
problematic, because it's not just going to stop with LGBTQ+ issues. It never does. And so
16:31
would you go as far as to say that you're rooting for him to lose his ministry so he
16:35
can no longer mislead his flock? Well, there's the missing step. I'm rooting for him to repent.
16:41
Sure, right. Right. So I'm sure that's in your heart too. You just skipped over that, right?
16:46
Yeah, just just a little bit. Right, right. No, my hope. But look, this is not
16:52
anything new. In other words, this is for eight years, on and off, I tried to get him to make
16:58
a definitive statement, and he wouldn't. But this is related to other issues, which would seem to
17:06
undermine the authority of Scripture. But then he said, no, no, I hold to this Orthodox view,
17:10
but I'm trying to do this and that. So the bottom line is, there has been a trajectory for some years
17:16
that has been dangerous. And this is now the latest manifestation of it. He wrote a book about
17:25
politics. There was a lot of good in it, a lot of good points. For example, he said,
17:30
you don't put up in the foyer of your church building. We vote Republican, right? If you do,
17:36
then whoever law center comes in that needs Jesus, maybe they've been Democrat their whole life.
17:41
That's not their issue. They're issues. They're a law center. They don't know Jesus, right?
17:45
And the goal is not to get them to vote Republican. The goal is to get them saved.
17:48
So I got what he was saying. And yet it ends up bashing those who have conservative moral beliefs
17:55
and it's like, look, we do have to, during the days of slavery, it would be controversial
18:01
to speak up against slavery in many Christian circles. Or look, there were white Christians
18:06
during segregation or pro-segregation. You speak up against that. It's going to cost you something.
18:11
So be it. We're not here to be popular. We're here to honor the Lord. One of the Puritans said that
18:17
the pastor's job, the preacher's job, is not to please the palate, but to cure the patient.
18:23
I'm not trying to serve up something that tastes good. Everybody likes. I'm trying to tell the truth.
18:28
And if you like it or not, that's between you and God, but I want to help you.
18:32
My open rebuke is better than secret love. So there is real, massive potential damage
18:40
and probably ongoing damage that Andy's doing because he has such a large following. He's got a
18:45
good size, very big church, but he's got a massive following. Many leaders take his messages
18:52
and use his messages or use his outlines. So if he doesn't repent, yes, I hope that his influence
18:59
continues to diminish simply so he will not hurt other people. Absolutely.
19:04
And ultimately, that is what I said on my show. I did call him to repentance, but then it's like,
19:08
well, if you're not going to repent, then you don't get to keep your job. That's essentially
19:12
the point that I made. So go ahead, sir. Yeah, it's my prayer. When I pray for someone
19:18
that I have differences with, let's say there's some critic that launches the latest attack on me
19:23
and it goes viral nationally or something. So I'm on my knees praying for God's best for that person,
19:28
not retaliation, not anger. If they have any valid criticism, I want to hear it.
19:33
If it's just destructive, hey, but when I pray for them, I will pray something like, Lord,
19:38
anything that's wrong in their lives, any error, anything that's displeasing in your sight,
19:43
show them and where they're doing what's right, bless them. And then I pray the identical prayer
19:47
for myself. So that's the way I cover everything before God, right? I'm not an accuser. It's an
19:56
equal opportunity prayer. God, I pray the same for me. If there's any area in my life where I'm
20:00
missing it, show me and give me repentance. And if I'm not right with you, diminish my influence.
20:05
And if I am representing you, increase it. So it's a right prayer to pray. It's look,
20:11
if you care about the sheep, you don't want the sheep hurt. And this is what's insidious, Kyle,
20:18
is the ambiguity, right, that the refusal to come out clearly on certain things. You
20:24
should go back to the days of slavery, slave trade, slavery are always wrong under all circumstances.
20:30
Period. That's it. End of subject. When you kidnap someone from another country,
20:35
where you torturously transfer them over the Atlantic, where you enslave them and treat them
20:39
like an animal, that's always wrong under all circumstances. Period. End of subject. There's no
20:44
nuance to it. There are plenty of Christians who didn't understand the enormity of the evil
20:50
and who based on Old Testament slavery principles thought it was okay to have slaves. So they were
20:57
sinning, but they were sinning on some level of ignorance. Paul said that the Lord had mercy on
21:02
him in 1 Timothy 1 because he acted in ignorance and unbelief when he was persecuting unbelievers.
21:08
But Andy Stanley is not acting based on ignorance. He's acting with his eyes wide open. And that's
21:15
the real danger. When I think for someone like Andy, and then we'll move on from the subject matter,
21:23
whenever you are a tremendous communicator, whether that's spoken word or written word or both,
21:28
you can very easily become a very cunning manipulator as well. Because you are purposely
21:36
leaving certain phrases and words out of what you're saying, and you're including certain phrases
21:41
in what you are saying. And so that's what I find to be the most problematic and scary for me
21:46
with him is those types of things that he's doing are very, very nefarious because of how
21:52
exactly he's communicating. Because I used to be a big devotee of the things that he said. I followed
21:56
every single sermon. I read all of his books. And it's interesting. You know, I think I talked
22:02
about with John the last time I was on Cooper stuff was this process of delayed sanctification.
22:06
I feel like I became a Christian, got all fired up at the beginning, and then didn't have anyone
22:10
discipling me or mentoring me. And so I was just kind of like wandering for like a decade or two,
22:15
right? And then so I feel like I'm being more sanctified now. But I'll go back and listen to
22:20
Andy Stanley sermons that I was just hanging on every word back at the time and being like,
22:23
wait a minute, that's not that's not a biblical ethic that he's giving me there. This is a,
22:28
this is a business ethic. This is a management ethic. This is more how to win friends and influence
22:33
people and less biblical exegesis, if that makes sense. Yeah, my only intersection with him has
22:39
been on these issues. You know, I never the body of Christ is big. So I never had followed him or
22:44
listened to his sermons or read his books. So this is really our only interaction. And I came in
22:49
thinking well of him, thinking that he had a good reputation. Again, his being accessible and open
22:55
is commendable. To this day, if I wanted like, despite, he knows where I feel, I could pick up
23:00
pick up the phone and call him. I'm sure he talked to me, you know, but without question,
23:05
the way things are communicated, we, those of us who are communicators, I'm a speaker, I'm a writer,
23:11
we're going to give a count for our words. We will give a count to God for our words.
23:19
I mean, you can say in the message, you know, homosexual practices, or homosexuality. You can
23:24
say that and then talk about gay Christians who love the Lord, who are quote, married to men,
23:31
quote, married to each other. Yeah, as gay Christians who love the Lord,
23:35
then you have just sent out at best a misleading message, at worst, an intentionally destructive
23:43
message in that you know what you are ultimately communicating through it. So that's the
23:49
danger. It would be far, far better if he came out and made black and white statements and let the
23:56
chips fall where they may be in the sight of God. And for his years, the fact that it's cloaked in
24:02
ambiguity makes it all the more insidious. When as we see in Hebrews 13, he's going to have to give
24:09
an account someday for how he shepherded his flock. I'm not going to have to give an account for how
24:13
I shepherd at North Point Community Church, because I'm not the pastor. I'm not the leader of that
24:16
church. But let's get off of Andy Sandley's dig into some of your communication. Let's dig into
24:21
some of your written word. We've got a couple of your latest books here. So we got sees the moment
24:24
and turn the tide. So first of all, this it says book one and book two on here. So are there more
24:29
books coming in this series, I guess would be the first thing. But then give us an overview of what
24:34
this series is. Why did you write these books? Why you? Why now? Yes, sir. We shall see what comes
24:42
with future books. I've written almost 50 books now. So you never quite know what's coming next.
24:47
So it's book one and book two from revival to reformation. Each book is standalone
24:54
from revival to reformation. So when I got saved in 71, I didn't know it was part of a worldwide
25:01
movement, Jesus people movement, Jesus revolution. But God was saving all these hippies, rebels,
25:05
radicals from around the world. We got saved. But in many cases, we got saved with the mentality.
25:11
Jesus is coming any minute and we're out of here. And there was no long term vision.
25:17
There was no thought of societal change. Whereas you had others in the sixties, part of the
25:22
counterculture revolution, say gay activists, radical feminists, they had their vision for
25:26
America, what they felt was best for our country. And they said, we're going to write the revolution
25:30
into law. And they did and changed the world around us. Well, my generation of believers was
25:36
thinking, we're out of here any minute. Everything's only getting worse. And to this moment, it's
25:42
still our mentality, which is a guaranteed recipe for defeat. It's almost like a guy
25:47
going into a boxing ring. And he knows, I'm going to lose. Why bother training? Well, now you're
25:53
definitely going to lose. If you don't train, you're 100% going to get knocked out in the first round.
25:58
Okay, so that's been kind of our mentality. I was part of an outpouring a revival called the
26:04
Browns were a revival that lasted from 95 to 2000. I served as a leader in it from 96 to 2000.
26:10
We had in one church in Pensacola, Florida, cumulative attendance of roughly 3 million people
26:18
from 130 nations flock there that would stand online outside the building, beginning at six
26:24
in the morning for the doors to open at six in the evening for the services started seven to go
26:29
past midnight, night after night, most nights of the week for years. We in the midst of it,
26:35
we raised up a ministry school because we knew you've got to seize the moment. When God comes
26:40
with revival, we've read about first grade awakening, second grade awakening, different
26:44
outpourings and church history, Welsh revival, these different things. When God comes,
26:49
in visitation, you must seize the moment. You may never get to experience this again. And in one day,
26:57
you see more lives change than normally in a year of church ministry, more people getting set free
27:03
from sin, people weeping in repentance at the altar, getting delivered from 30, 40 year addictions,
27:09
and now they're on fire. They want to do something for God. So the church, you have to recognize
27:14
what's going on. We've got to seize this moment. And what happened is, as the years went on since
27:21
then, I became increasingly grieved over the state of our nation. 2004, God laid on my heart
27:28
that the great challenge for our generation was going to be gay activism, and that already in 2004,
27:33
it was the principal threat to freedom of religion, speech, and conscience. And the word God laid
27:39
in my heart was reach out and resist, reach out to the people with compassion, resist the agenda
27:44
with courage, hearts of compassion, backbones of steel. So I've been on the front line of the
27:50
culture wars all these years. And I've grieved because we're in such a mess in America, such moral
27:57
compromise in the church, in the society, scandals everywhere we look. And yet there didn't seem to
28:02
be a lot of brokenness or desperation. I didn't see a lot of believers on their face saying,
28:07
God, if you don't help us, it's over. I didn't see a lot of church prayer meetings. That began to
28:12
shift a few years back. And it seemed that God began to shake our nation from COVID to the race
28:18
riots, to the election controversies, to scandals in the church. And then late 2022,
28:24
everywhere I was traveling, every church I was asked to speak in, one after another,
28:30
they were experiencing a move of God, not because I brought it. It was there already.
28:34
Young people flocking to the altars, they opened the church building for prayer. They can't get
28:39
everyone in. One church in Corpus Christi, Texas, baptizing a thousand people every single year,
28:46
especially young people from college campuses. I saw something happening and I got on the radio.
28:53
This was early January, or January, excuse me, of 2023. I got on my radio show and I said,
29:00
this has been evident to me for some months, but I want to say it. The beginning, it's the early
29:04
stages, but the beginning of the next wave of revival has hit America. It's in the early stages
29:11
now, but it's here eight days later, asbury hit. And I got back on the air and I said,
29:16
I told you something's going on. So as I see it, it's always been the way I've been
29:23
visioned for years. In my mind's eye, I see thousands of fires all over America,
29:29
not one place that everyone goes flocking to, but thousands of places where God is moving.
29:35
What do you do? Revival is very intense. It's very easy to mess it up. There are 100 ways that
29:41
things can go wrong to cultivate it and sustain it. It's very challenging. So I wrote, seize the
29:47
moment how to fuel the fires of revival to help pastors, leaders from mega church to house church.
29:53
What to do when the fire falls? What to do when God visits? Turn the tide just came out in May.
30:02
How do we ignite a cultural awakening? How do you go from outpouring in the church
30:08
to awakening in society? How do you go from revival to reformation? There has to be some
30:15
intentionality to it. We're seeing, you know, John Cooper, our buddy has spoken out so eloquently
30:21
about Marxism and about those aspects of the cultural revolution. He's had his eye on this for
30:27
some time. No one can deny the long march of Marxism through our universities and colleges.
30:34
They talked about it decades ago in the '60s, and no one can deny it with the intersectionality.
30:39
Now the anti-Israel protests and the colonizers versus the colonizers and the oppressors versus
30:43
the oppressed. Everybody sees it. You can't argue with it. Well, we need a long march back.
30:47
We need a long march into, say, a Harvard, where Harvard publication, a student publication,
30:54
the Crimson, they did a survey of professors at Harvard out of those who responded conservative
31:01
to liberal. It was liberal 500 conservative one. So somehow with strategy in our families,
31:09
in our churches, in our communities, on social media, in every outlet God gives us, we have to
31:17
have a revolutionary mentality not to take over, but to bring about cultural change through the
31:23
gospel. In other words, to be salt and light and turn the tide gives inspiration and then practical
31:30
strategies. This is how everybody can get involved. Hey guys, real quick. Here recently,
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animal and they were terrible. And they even gave me some stakes and some ground. And it was
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basically inedible. Like I couldn't believe how bad it was. And they ended up finding out that the
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person killed an old bull or something like that. And just the meat was old and tough and awful.
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That's K-Y-L-E to get 10% off your order. Okay, I love that that primer that you just gave us
33:32
because we're going to dig in. I read both of these books last week and so they definitely have a
33:36
different tone. So to anyone that's like, Oh crap, I don't want to read a series of books. Yes,
33:39
you can read them standalone guys. You don't have to read them one right after the other. This isn't
33:43
like a fiction narrative that you can't get into part two because part one, all that kind of stuff.
33:48
But what sees the moment, I did have a question because even in the preface, you talked about
33:52
how you noticed that there were signs of renewal. You talked about signs of revival and these waves
33:58
of revival even just then in your answer. But practically speaking, I remember during the
34:04
asbury revival, not knowing the difference between a bona fide revival and just an artificially long
34:12
worship service. And then because whenever the asbury things started to die down, whatever you
34:17
want to define as die down, they were trying to move it off site because they were having logistical
34:22
issues in the city. And they were trying to get people to come to the off site by enticing them
34:28
with Chick-fil-A sandwiches and stuff like that. I'm like, okay, if this is a move of God, I don't
34:32
think missing a hotel room capacity is going to stop it. And I certainly don't think people need
34:38
chicken sandwiches in order to continue this going. But just for the observer, the interested
34:44
observer, how can we know the difference between something that is being propped up to seem like
34:48
revival and a real bona fide revival? Yeah. So let me let me answer the three ways. Number one,
34:53
when I moved to Pensacola, Florida, I'm a New Yorker originally, New York Jew, right sarcasm
34:58
means in my veins. Okay. I moved to Pensacola, Florida. That was kind of like Alabama culture.
35:03
It's just a different world for me. And for the people there, I was different for them.
35:06
But you have the revival culture there that at a certain time of the year,
35:10
churches have revival meetings. They posted on the marquee revival. It's like September 1st,
35:15
revival October 3rd through 5th. Right. Literally every week in Pensacola at
35:22
somewhere during the week, because I was at the main speaker at night. I would I led the school
35:27
and did day sessions. But I'd speak briefly. At least once a week, I'd say you can no more
35:32
hold a revival than you can hold a hurricane. You can no more schedule a revival than you can
35:36
schedule an earthquake. Revival is not so the man works up, revival is something God sends down.
35:41
So we're not talking about the series of special meetings. We're not talking about that. Let's
35:46
dismiss that. When it comes to Asbury, the last weekend, 50, I've read 50,000 people
35:55
to send it on Asbury, a community of only 6,000. And I had been saying it's not going to be
36:02
just in one place. I don't believe it was God's desire to continue it as a one place event.
36:09
I believe that the leaders did the right thing in saying, hey, we're shutting down the public
36:13
meetings. I believe that was God's wisdom. Let it spread through other means. Those who tried to
36:19
keep it going off site, they may have had good intent, but that was their idea, it seems,
36:24
not God's idea, because obviously he didn't back that. Leonard Ravenhill, famous for writing the
36:31
book, Why Revival Terries? Great revival leader from the last generation. I became very close with
36:35
him the last five years of his life. He always would say, you don't have to advertise a fire.
36:41
We never advertised anything in France. Well, just like Asbury didn't advertise, in fact,
36:46
the problem was all the people coming. So the answer, my third point to fully answer your question,
36:53
when something is really a move of God, people don't want to leave. People come flocking.
37:00
You don't have to advertise it. It advertises itself because people's lives are transformed
37:05
in testimonies get out. And there's just kind of this mystical thing of God coming and people
37:10
realize some things going on. You have to steward it properly. So for example, one pastor in Colorado,
37:18
hears about Asbury. God's been moving in his church, powerful things happening. He hears about
37:23
Asbury. He says, Lord, what about us? Englewood, California. I mean, he told me the story to my
37:28
face when I was at his church. What about us? Well, what happens is, week or two later,
37:33
Sunday morning, they start their service. It ends eight o'clock the following morning. It ends
37:39
eight o'clock Monday morning, almost the 24 hour service. Since then, in one part of the building,
37:46
they have 24/7 prayer. In another part of the building, they have 24/7 worship. And they just
37:51
feel that's their mandate to lift this up. When God's really moving, it's a matter of where do we
37:58
put it? How do we contain all the people? How do we steward it? Well, my schedule in the Brownsville
38:04
days was between 70 and 80 hours of ministry related work each week, which can burn you out.
38:10
I mean, that's another issue. But if prayer births the revival, prayer will sustain the revival.
38:16
If you have it, okay, let's hype it up. Oh, no, we need to bring in Kyle because he's famous.
38:19
No, no, it's not revival. If you need to pump it up, stoke it up, push it, advertise it, hype it.
38:26
It's not revival. Revival will advertise itself. You have to steward it. It's just like this.
38:33
What's the difference between a temporary thunder shower and 10 days of torrential rain? Well,
38:40
that's the difference. That's the difference right there. So with revival, the service ends,
38:46
and nobody wants to leave. You say, well, we'll have a service tomorrow night, okay? And next
38:51
thing the building's packed. It's like, oh, maybe we'll go another night because the hunger is there.
38:56
It's being driven. And now next thing sinners are coming in and off the streets because
39:00
something's happening. It's like God draws them in. So I hate hype. I'm Pentecostal,
39:06
charismatic. I'll shout and jump in all that. I hate hype. I hate working things up. I hate
39:12
this manufactured Christianity or manufactured move of God. I despise that stuff. But when it's
39:18
really God, the question is, how do we steward the flood? And how can we work with God?
39:25
It says Leviticus six, don't let the fire on the altar go out three times when the fire falls.
39:30
How can we sustain it? So that's what sees the moment is about. So there was a wave of things,
39:36
Super Bowl Sunday of, let's see, your Super Bowl Sunday of last year, I got calls from different
39:45
pastors and leaders texting me, Dr. Brown, we don't know what to do. The service went till four in the
39:51
afternoon. The spirit fell dramatically, just crazy stuff happening. And it lasted for, I mean,
39:58
visitation, seasoned pastors telling me, Dr. Brown, I'm about to go to a staff meeting,
40:03
but I'm sitting here in my office shaking and trembling. What do I do? You know, they're calling
40:09
me literally in the midst of this. It lasted for a period of weeks, maybe a little longer,
40:14
and then it seemed to abate. Okay, back to normal, back to prayer, back to fasting,
40:19
back to winning the loss, back to being disciples, back to being godly leaders in our homes and
40:24
etc. And then you keep praying, okay, that was a taste. That was a taste. We know there's more
40:30
coming. So that's my alert to people is something started, something's in the air. Let's keep pressing
40:38
in until the breakthrough comes. And when the breakthrough comes, the question will not be
40:43
how to draw the people. The question will not be how to keep the services going. The question
40:48
will be, how do we handle the flood tide? Well, so I want to, I want to dig into a lot of that,
40:53
because I mean, yeah, obviously if it rains for 10 days, it's like, what are we going to do with
40:56
all this water? That's a very different thing than a, you know, temporary shower. I live in Oklahoma,
40:59
so this is just basically my entire life. But in chapter 13 of the book, it's called Be Jealous
41:04
for lasting fruit. And you have a very poignant quote that really goes into what you were just saying,
41:09
stop and take another look when the excitement dies down, when the thrills fade, and when the
41:13
momentum comes to a standstill, what's left? And so that's a good evidentiary basis for what did we
41:19
actually see? Was this, you know, just a rainstorm? Or was this, you know, epic biblical flooding?
41:24
But I want to dig into something else that you said there. And this goes into what you're talking
41:28
about in chapter 21, chapter 21 is never try to force or work things up. So this is a quote you
41:33
have here. I love to see deep emotional responses to the moving of the Holy Spirit.
41:38
But I hate emotionalism. The former is beautiful and to be embraced. The latter is ugly and to be
41:45
avoided. So you were just talking about it there just in your last answer. But when I think of
41:49
emotionalism, I think of contemporary Christian music. I think of the chorus, the chorus, chorus,
41:55
chorus, bridge bridge, chorus. And then now we're going to slow it down. And now we're going to
41:58
bring it up. And now we're going to bring the lights and the fog. And it's just going to we're
42:01
going to make it even more emotional than it was. And the song that's six minutes on the radio is all
42:06
a sudden 16 minutes. And people are falling out everywhere. And I know Stephen Furtick puts spirit
42:11
movers in his in his congregation in the crowd. So if if people are amending enough, or if they're
42:17
not raising their hands enough during service, he literally has plants in the crowd that are like
42:22
getting the spirit to move. And I find that to be very concerning. Because for me,
42:26
never been a huge fan of contemporary Christian music, just the style of music. I'm more of a
42:30
metal guy like skilled is even kind of tame compared to what some of the stuff that I listen to.
42:35
So it's just never really been my bread and butter. But part of it is is the emotionalism
42:40
of it doesn't speak to my masculine heart in the same way as a song, a wood, or you know,
42:46
something from one of these other maybe Christian metal bands. So talk to me a little bit about,
42:51
I guess your hatred to use your own words of emotionalism. But what we see from so many Christian
42:56
circles, which is like, Hey, come to this enormous conference. And we're going to just basically
43:01
spend an hour desperately trying to move you emotionally with this really long worship set.
43:06
Well, see, I would be just as concerned about metal moving your your your man heart. In other
43:13
words, that's all solar stuff. That's just that's soullish. That's not spirit. So it may be, but when
43:20
you can bring the two together, in other words, a powerful message of a song, and the Holy Spirit
43:27
moving put together with music that impacts your emotions, your mind, that's incredible.
43:33
But when you take out the truth of the message and the moving of the spirit,
43:38
it's just emotional. For example, you can go in the gym and get the, you know, the heavy metal
43:44
playing and everybody, you got a bench press. That's got nothing to do with God in terms of this.
43:50
The Holy Spirit didn't do anything. It's not like now we were courageous soldiers of the cross.
43:55
Don't you just got worked up. So you painted another picture of people just, oh, Jesus,
44:02
you're one because the music, the music stops and the spirit stops because it wasn't the spirit.
44:07
It was emotion. And that's one reason I hate emotionalism. It's not just a false thing that's
44:12
being worked up, but it's giving you a false impression. You think you had an encounter,
44:17
but it was emotional. So that's the soullish realm. For example, you're you're watching a movie.
44:23
It's a tearjerker. You've watched some old classic 20 times. You said they're crying. It's just a
44:27
movie. You know it's a movie. And you turn the sound off and suddenly you come out of the spell,
44:33
right? The moving of the Holy Spirit can be no music, no nothing. And suddenly people are weeping
44:40
and wailing or the same song you sang yesterday and nothing happened. You sing the song, be it,
44:47
be it skill it's, you know, feeling invincible. That's my favorite skill it's on. Be it,
44:54
be it feel invincible or be the beautiful old hymn or be it some, you know, miracle work or
45:00
contemporary Christian song, whatever it is. And you played the same thing last week and nothing
45:04
happened. And this week you play it and hundreds of people are running to the altar to get saved
45:09
or suddenly there's you can't finish preaching that night because repentance, weeping, wailing.
45:15
I remember being in a meeting with Leonard Ravenhill who's a frail old man at this point
45:19
preaching to 4,500 people at a vineyard conference in Anaheim, California. And he couldn't finish
45:25
this message because people were on their faces, weeping and wailing and repenting all over the
45:30
building. And then I literally Kyle, I'll meet people to this day. Browns River will begin 95.
45:36
This is almost 30 years later. I will meet people around the world to this day as recently as the
45:42
last few weeks. Dr. Brown, I went to Brownsville. Jesus say, man, God change. You prayed for me.
45:49
I've never been the same. And they're burning. They're on fire. That's because it was a real
45:53
move of God. If it's emotionalism, it's like going to the football game. And the team's winning
45:58
and the world is a better place. And your team lost because of a bad call by the ref in the last
46:04
second. And the whole world is corrupt. None of that has to do with God. It's just our emotions
46:10
up and down. Well, let me ask you, I love the line delineation you put there.
46:14
What about because I've been concerned about this and I know that other ministry leaders are
46:18
concerned about this as well. So whether this is at a church camp or at a planned revival or at
46:23
some sort of event where people get whipped up in the music, that's why when I go and speak
46:29
places and then the piano player wants to come out whenever I'm doing my prayer, I'll be like,
46:32
get out of here. Get off the stage. We're not doing manipulative music right now. Get out of here.
46:38
But it's like, what about the people that raise their hand because they get spun up in the emotion
46:45
and they raise their hand to say, I want to receive Christ, but then they don't they don't
46:48
actually receive him. And I know this can get into the Calvinism and whether or not they were
46:53
elect and you know, you could even choose to reach out and grab God's hand. He's got to pick you up.
46:57
I don't necessarily want to get into all that. But I do get concerned about people that get
47:01
whipped up, raise their hand. And then there is no heart change. There is no repentance. There
47:05
is no acceptance, no baptism. You know what I mean? Yeah, let me just one little caveat.
47:11
I wrote a whole book called the power of music. God's call to change the world one song at a time.
47:15
And there are passages like second Kings three, where Elisha the prophet is asked to prophesy
47:21
and he says, bring me a minstrel. And when the minstrel begins to play, the spirit comes on them.
47:25
There's often a powerful connection between the spirit and music. And many times I've just seen
47:31
the right song at the right moment change the entire atmosphere or the wrong song at the wrong
47:36
moment change it. So I don't I don't have someone playing as I preach. You know, some I've been in
47:41
some churches where they once have been playing the whole time. And there's like the black church
47:46
culture where you kind of play off each other, which is kind of a cool thing in the past or half
47:49
things. And so let everybody have their own, however you minister best, whatever helps you focus the
47:57
best, right? That being said, I don't see this as any different from churches all over America,
48:04
where the pastor is basically like a life coach, giving a pep talk gives a lovely message and he
48:10
wants to receive Christ like sounds like a good deal. Get your sins forgiven, get your guilt removed,
48:16
prosperity, you go to heaven. There's no conviction of sin. One of my first books 1990 was called
48:22
How Saved Are We? And the American Gospel basically says, this is who I am. This is how I feel. And
48:29
God is here to please me. The biblical gospel is this is who God is. This is how he feels. And we
48:34
are here to please him completely different. So our nation is filled with superficial converts
48:41
and counterfeit converts. And the more that the fire falls, if testing comes, if persecution comes
48:47
because of the word, we'll find out who's in who's not. Our churches in America, many of them, large
48:53
and small, are more designed to produce consumers rather than disciples. Or as I posted the other day,
49:00
we do a better job of entertaining an audience than raising up an army. So this is sometimes
49:07
the music is used. Sometimes it's the method of the messaging you talked about. Andy Stanley can
49:12
paint a picture and use certain manipulative words, et cetera. So there are all these different ways
49:17
of doing it. Add Jesus into your life and have a better life. And you hear, I remember
49:23
some guy, a rapper, not Kanye West, and that's another issue. But some rapper, and he said he was
49:31
now following Jesus, put out a Jesus record. But people found out he's still going to the strip
49:36
clubs and still partying. And he said, yeah, I love Jesus. And I love clubbing. It's like, no, no,
49:42
no, you don't love both. You don't love Jesus and love the world. It's one thing to say, I love Jesus
49:47
and I'm struggling. I love Jesus. And I'm having a hard time with this. Yeah, he's with us in our
49:51
struggles. It's another thing to look, I go on with this. And about four hours later, you'd be able
49:57
to interrupt me. So I'll have to pull back here. But no, I defective, a defective gospel has been a
50:05
massive, massive problem in America for years. Let me say one other thing. Please, since you
50:09
mentioned your audience is as largely male, my number one demographic online is 25 to 34 year old
50:17
males, except on Facebook, where it's women over 65. But I think that's just a Facebook demographic.
50:24
But overall, what we've, what we've seen just on our, our social media demographics. So
50:32
I'm not, I'm not mainly speaking to men, but very commonly doing it. And there has been
50:37
a feminized Christianity in America growing for some years, which is more feeling oriented.
50:45
And, and, and the strength that look, I'm a complete mess without my wife of 48 years. You know,
50:52
I'm not who I am without her. So we are deeply indebted to the women in our lives. But when you
50:58
take a faith and make, make it masculine or feminine, something's out of balance there. And, and this,
51:06
this, this heroism, this courageous spirit, this swim against the tide, go against the grain,
51:13
raise up an army, we haven't cultivated that by all means, let's be sensitive, loving,
51:18
concerning. You know, let's understand the motherly aspects of the faith,
51:22
but not to the exclusion of the fatherly. And, and we're not, we're not raising up radicals.
51:28
I don't mean someone that's self-righteous thinks everybody else is wrong, but people
51:31
who live like my friends in other parts of the world, they follow Jesus by life or by death.
51:35
I've been to India 29 times out of my 200 plus trips out of the United States. And, and when my
51:42
friend in India baptizes people, he asks them at baptism after their confession of faith. Are you
51:48
willing to follow Jesus to your last breath, to your last drop of blood? And if they don't say,
51:54
yes, he doesn't baptize them. That's normal. They understand they may die following Jesus there.
52:00
So we have it where you have to make it appeal. Come on, come today. It won't all take a minute.
52:05
No, it's not going to take a minute. It's going to take the rest of your life.
52:08
It's going to take the rest of your life. So you're, you're, you're hitting on a larger issue,
52:13
which is why we need revival. It's not just powerful services. It's God changing us.
52:20
It's God bringing reformation in the church and bringing back a message of repentance
52:24
and holiness and concentration along with the grace and love of God.
52:28
Well, I'll try to be brief with this because I have several questions I want to ask about
52:33
turn the tide and I want to be cognizant of your time. But let's talk a little bit more
52:36
about the feminization of modern Christianity. That's something that I've talked about a lot,
52:41
but I've talked about it in a lot of different ways because there are ministries out there that
52:45
are quote unquote men's ministries that are very aggro. They are very four-wheel drive and mud and
52:50
beef jerky and blood and fighting and all that. And so it's, it's all tough, no tender. And then
52:56
you've got a lot of men's ministries that are just women's ministries that have been repackaged for
53:00
men. And so as opposed to doilies and flowers on the sign, you know, it's wood and like metal or
53:06
something like that. But content specifically is more to the feminine spirit. And so I tell
53:11
people all the time is like, you know, Jesus wasn't lamb 50% lion 50%. He's lamb 100% lion 100%.
53:18
He was tough and tender. He was grace and truth. He was like, he was all these things all at the
53:23
same time. So going full aggro and staying there is problematic going full effeminate and staying
53:30
there is very, very problematic. But it does not take an astute observer to look at modern
53:35
worship, to look at modern Christianity in general and be like, man, this pings very, very effeminate.
53:40
So you're talking to an audience of very rough dudes, some guys that walk into church and they
53:45
just never, ever feel comfortable because of kind of the, the doughy soft approach, their
53:50
minds will be a neon blinking sign outside that doesn't say revival. But that just says, this is
53:54
for the women and the children in the men are like, okay, I'll go to the shooting range. Okay,
53:58
I'll go work out. And they just don't get involved in the church. What would be your
54:01
message to those guys or to the churches that are pinging way more feminine.
54:06
Yes. So thankfully, I get to go to a lot of places that I think a lot of these guys would be at home
54:11
in, you know, good. But and look, I'm the son of a New York lawyer, I don't go hunting and fishing,
54:18
you know, I'm so I'm not, I'm not a redneck in that right. I was made an honorary redneck while
54:23
ministry in Tennessee one time, but you see it didn't get that deep. But here's the deal. First for
54:29
our personal eyes, you mentioned 100% 100%. So the model that we've sought to follow, hearts of
54:36
compassion, backbones of steel, hearts of compassion, backbones of steel. Now, let, let us seek to
54:42
emulate that in our personal lives and be like Jesus, because no one was more tender, compassionate,
54:49
empathetic than Jesus. And no one was more immovable, unshakable, resolved firm than Jesus.
54:57
So grace and truth together. If they're having a hard time finding a church where they fit,
55:04
first, don't let that reflect on God. Don't get a bad attitude toward God. Don't get a bad attitude
55:11
towards the body as a whole. And and recognize, I say, none of us are perfect. And a lot of times,
55:16
we're just products of our own environment. So don't walk away, bad mouth and just pray, Hey,
55:21
God, do your best for this place. I don't really fit here. And then ask God to lead you in the
55:26
right place. There's definitely, unless you're in a completely isolated area, there's going to be
55:31
a fellowship where you can fit. Or even if the service as a whole is not your cup of tea,
55:36
as they're a home group, you really fit in. Or some friends you have there, let that be the
55:41
deeper part, get what you can out of the service, the part you don't like, hey, whatever. That's
55:46
not your big sustenance. Your big sustenance is your own relationship with God. Don't get
55:50
in bitter towards the church in general and start calling it names and things like that.
55:55
My wife and I were just talking about this. God can speak a certain way about his bride,
55:59
but he doesn't like others speaking a certain way about his bride. So I'm going to, I'm going to
56:04
look for the best, appreciate the good, and then find a place where I can fit and serve and make
56:10
a difference. And if it's just not a fit and pray that God will bring into the place and he will,
56:16
he'll connect us so that we can, we can serve and we can be built up. I would just love to
56:20
echo that real quick, because I'll get guys to reach out to me. They're like, Hey, I live in
56:23
Wherever'sville, Wyoming. Do you know of a man-friendly church in my area? It's like, bro,
56:27
I don't know of all the man-friendly churches in my zip code, like much less the rest of the country,
56:32
but I'm like, don't just go church shopping for a church that's going to serve your needs. Look for
56:36
a place where you can serve. And I tell them the same thing. I'm like, look, the church I go to,
56:39
the music is definitely not my style, not a huge fan. The sermons can be fairly formulaic,
56:46
but they're deep. These aren't TED talks with Bible verses sprinkled over the top. These are
56:51
deep expository preaching. He's exegeting, not isegeting, and it's a healthy church and we have a healthy
56:58
group. It's our Sunday school group. And that's worth the price of admission, whether or not you
57:03
leave humming the songs on your way out the door. And so I would absolutely echo that.
57:07
If the brothers married, then there's also the wife and the kids. And if they're growing and
57:16
they're blessed and they're encountering the Lord, and they've got good friends, like, hey,
57:20
since see if you can find a place to fit, may not be your cup of tea, but if your family's thriving,
57:24
see if there's another place you can find to fit. Anyway, back to you.
57:27
Amen. Amen. No, this is great. I do want to get into a few questions from turn the tide,
57:32
because this is where you get more into what's happening culturally and what we can do. And I
57:37
want to kind of skip, go ahead and skip on to chapter 10. This is called changing laws and changing
57:42
hearts. So there are a lot of people in modern Christianity that are very much so in the, I want
57:47
to be known for what I'm for, not when I'm against crowd, because they think that's virtuous,
57:51
but it's actually cowardly whenever you get down to bedrock with a statement like that.
57:55
But there are a lot of people that think the political arena is not for Christians,
57:59
Christians, you know, handle the spiritual arena, but politicians handle the political arena,
58:04
to which I would ask them, so are you comfortable with only atheists running our government? Only
58:08
atheists determining what happens with our tax dollars? Like, because, you know, it sounds good
58:12
when you say it that way, but you have to dig one more level deep and it doesn't seem to look so good.
58:17
But what would you say to those people that are like, look, you know, I can only control me,
58:21
and maybe I can have a little bit of influence on my household, but I just can't get into this
58:26
whole political arena. I just don't like it. First, when we're talking culture, we're not
58:32
talking politics. We're talking other issues. For example, when we're talking about saving
58:36
the life of the unborn, that's not politics. That's that's culture. Those are biblical values.
58:41
When we talk about fentanyl being the number one cause of death for 18 to 44 year old Americans
58:47
right now and pouring in through our board, they're talking about human lives, not politics there.
58:51
When we're talking about that your kids are being indoctrinated into transgender activism
58:56
in kindergarten, that we're not talking politics. We're talking life. We're talking family. We're
59:01
talking pastoral issues, family issues, individual issues. When you lose your job,
59:06
because you hold to biblical convictions, and that's considered inappropriate in the workplace,
59:10
now we're not talking politics. So let's make that separation first. We are called to be the
59:16
salt of the earth and the light of the world. We are called to be a moral conscience of society.
59:22
And just like we used slavery before, you look back at past generations to say what were you doing?
59:27
Dietrich Bonhoeffer said the ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world
59:31
that at least for its children. And I've got no respect for a man who's not thinking of the
59:35
next generation. Kids, grandkids, I got zero respect. I don't care how macho and tough and strong you are,
59:42
you're a coward. If you're just concerned about your own well-being and not thinking about what
59:46
about your kids, what about your grandkids. So are you comfortable with an environment in which the
59:52
government can come and take away your kids because you're Christian? Because if no Christians vote,
59:56
that's where the government will end up. Are you comfortable with being told you or not allowed to
1:00:01
preach what the Bible says about various moral issues from the pulpit? Because that's where the
1:00:06
government will go if we don't vote. But first thing is our relationship with God preaching the
1:00:11
gospel, living our lives. Second thing is engaging the culture by doing what's right. You don't like
1:00:17
what's happening in the schools. You go to school board meeting, you protest. Maybe God wants you
1:00:21
to run for the school board. Why not? It's just another person from your neighbor. It's not to
1:00:26
force Bibles in the school. It's just get the crazy stuff out and go back to basic education.
1:00:31
So when it comes to voting and politics, we have to be careful not to look to politics to do what
1:00:39
only the gospel can do. There are no political saviors. Maybe you vote for Donald Trump but never
1:00:45
say only Trump can save America. That's blasphemous. Only Jesus can save America. Don't look to a
1:00:52
political leader to be a savior. Don't become an appendage of a political party. Don't confuse the
1:00:58
gospel with politics. Don't wrap the gospel in an American flag. But by all means, be a good steward.
1:01:06
Look, how would we feel about someone that's been entrusted with 20 million dollars inheritance
1:01:11
and a year later it's all gone? They've squandered something very precious. Bad. They're gonna have
1:01:16
to give a count to God for it as a believer. Well, we have a vote. We have to give a count to God
1:01:22
for the vote we have. It's part of the responsibility we have as American citizens. So if I draw up a
1:01:28
list of 10 items, how we can change America, how the church can change America, a list of 10,
1:01:35
voting is going to be number nine or 10 for me. But it'll be on my list. The first is going to be
1:01:40
prayer, fasting, our own repentance and getting our own families in order and caring for the poor
1:01:45
and the needy. And then it's going to be a whole list. So this will be on it. It's towards the end.
1:01:49
So it plays a role, but keep it in its proper perspective. And then here, so what do you add?
1:01:55
When you when you look to a doctor, medical doctor, you're going to a surgeon, you know,
1:02:01
you're you're rough housing with some guys, you're you're fractured your elbow. This surgeon may be
1:02:07
Hindu. He may be an atheist. He's the top surgeon in the city. You're not expecting him to lay hands
1:02:12
on you to pray to bless you. He's a surgeon. That's what he does. Okay, you know, this is the car
1:02:18
mechanic. He may be foul mouth nasty, you know, porn addict, but he knows how to fix your car.
1:02:24
Okay, you're not going to him for moral counsel. The same way we're voting for politicians
1:02:30
to do certain things in terms of appointing judges in terms of standing for certain laws,
1:02:36
because that's their role. So I'm going to get behind the person and leave his best in that way.
1:02:41
And then I'm going to go on with my business preaching the gospel, making disciples,
1:02:44
not looking to them to change America. And while they may be involved, so Donald Trump
1:02:50
appoints three justices, they're involved with overturning Roe v. Wade. That's massive.
1:02:54
That's glorious. But now we have the job of changing hearts. Now the the work just began.
1:02:59
We have to change hearts on a state by state by state level. And that's what believers do.
1:03:03
The great commission is to go and make disciples. How did disciples live? What did disciples do?
1:03:10
Okay, brother, you're a man of God. You're a soldier of the cross. You're full of the Holy Spirit.
1:03:15
And across the street, there's some bully. He's got a baseball bat, 18 year old bully,
1:03:21
and he's and he's smashing little kids in a kindergarten playground. What are you going to do?
1:03:25
You're going to go and tackle that guy, take that bat from him, call the police and hold them down,
1:03:30
because why? Not because you're a macho man, because you're a follower of Jesus, and somebody is
1:03:36
smashing little kids, and you can do something about it. So there's a lot that we can do
1:03:42
that we do as believers. It's what disciples do. And how do you treat your wife? How do you raise
1:03:50
your kids? How do you conduct yourself in the workplace? We have a role to play as disciples.
1:03:55
And when you return the tide, it'll inspire. I believe it'll light a fire and say, hey,
1:03:59
I can't do something. And we can bring about change. My goal, in terms of moral ethical issues,
1:04:05
is when I leave this world, aside from all of the ministry things, I'd like to leave my country
1:04:10
or what I've influenced in better shape than when I came in for my kids, grandkids, great grandkids.
1:04:15
Man, and that's that should be the clarion call for all of us. And I guess if I asked you another
1:04:23
question, I would run the risk of messing up that perfect last answer. Guys, there is so much more
1:04:28
and turn the tide. Like you get into Christian nationalism a little bit, you get into the LGBTQ
1:04:33
plus revolution, you get into really all kinds of different problems, ubiquity of porn, out of
1:04:37
wedlock births, no religious affiliation, the nuns here in America and things like that. So
1:04:42
it's a very, very fantastic book, but we're running out of time. You got things you got
1:04:46
to do today. So do I, but that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:04:50
I just want to say this. At first, thanks for taking the time to read the books, because
1:04:58
you do interviews. I do lots of interviews. It's hard to actually get into the content. So
1:05:03
thanks for taking the time. That's meaningful. And I'm glad that the books meant something to you.
1:05:07
So two things, just to everybody out here. Go for it. Don't tell you about what you're going to do
1:05:14
tomorrow. Go for it. Something in your heart, something burning in you. Go after God. Now,
1:05:22
determine I'm not going to let the rest of this year go through the rest of my life go through
1:05:26
the way it's been. I know there's more. And if your heart's burning, go for it.
1:05:31
And then our role is to stand by your side, help equip. So get our frontline newsletter. It's free.
1:05:37
It's digital. I'm going to say it's macho. It's just, but it's good. It's good content.
1:05:42
Why is can read it too? So the line of fire dot org, the line of fire door, go there. Just click
1:05:50
subscribe and we'll send it out to you. Share more of my own testimony from LSD to PhD. And by God's
1:05:57
grace, we can see something happen. And I am really trusting that men in our country,
1:06:02
believers are going to rise up and make a difference. So guys, let's go do it.
1:06:05
Guys, all that will be in the show notes. Dr. Brown, thanks again for coming on.
1:06:09
My joy. There you go, guys. Hope you enjoyed my time with Dr. Brown. But before I let you go,
1:06:15
we are going to do a quick resilience boost add and don to life. Our mission is equipping
1:06:18
men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:06:21
So I'm going to link to the website there, the line of fire dot org. That's the one that he
1:06:25
talked about there on the show. And I've also got a link to his YouTube channel.
1:06:27
Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe,
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1:07:02
Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:07:09
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.