MICHAEL LEEHAN | How Satan's Soldier Became God's Warrior (Ep. 872)

Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Michael, welcome to the house, man. Glad to have you. >> Thank you. >> So, you and I have a really funny connection for the first time story, right? >> And a reconnection story that are separated by like 15 years. Do you remember me telling you about how we met? Yes. >> So, for those of you in the audience that don't know, uh I'm in a meeting and I'm like I don't know, I'm like 23 or 24 years old. There's some sort of like I don't know if it was a men's ministry thing or some sort of a church thing. And so, we're all at this conference table and we're all going around the room kind of saying who we are and what we do and blah blah blah. And like again, I'm like a kid. I'm I'm like, "Hey, I'm Kyle. I graduated from UCO. I you know, I'm working in this random job." And I think you were the last person to go. >> Mhm. >> And you were like, "Hey, I'm I'm Michael Leehan. I was practicing Satanist for 20 years." And then I got radically saved. Uh, and also along the way I was told by Satan to kill Pastor Craig Rochelle of Life Church. Anyway, happy to be here today. >> Yeah. >> And I just remember sitting there like, "Really, dude? Really guy? You can't raise your hand and say, "Yeah, I'd like to go first just to kind of like set the tone. Here I am talking about my favorite color." And then you're you're over there saying all that. >> Yeah. >> So that's how we got introduced for the first time. >> Yeah. Uh, and I don't remember it because there's been so much so much happened since then, but uh that sounds like something I would do. >> Yeah. It's pretty vivid in my brain. And then the second one is more interesting. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm walking around Faith Bible Church. And last year, I got this left sleeve done by Dustin Yip here in Oklahoma City >> and I'm in the lobby and, you know, I've kind of been getting stopped, you know, here lately just from people that appreciate the show or, you know, like they didn't even know they went to the same church or whatever. >> And then this gal uh stops me. She's like, "Oh my gosh, your work is so beautiful." I'm like, "Thank you." It's always weird to get a compliment on a tattoo, right? cuz like I didn't do anything other than sit there, right? The artist did everything and >> made sure it's going to look good. >> And so I like was telling her like, "Oh yeah, it's this guy Dustin here in Oklahoma City. Just moved from California. He only does black and gray realism. I feel so happy that we found out." Blah, blah, blah. >> And then here you come walking up and I probably haven't seen you in well over a decade, right, in person. And I go, "Michael." Yeah. >> And you're like, "Yeah, hey." And so we just kind of had like a weird little connection. Like I had not seen you at our church before. And so we kind of got reconnected and then you know I invited you on the show to to talk about your story and then you know fast forward >> here we are. That's the first time we ever been in that room in that church. We usually go into the >> we usually go into the overflow and then walk straight back out cuz I'm not kind of like a community type guy and there you were. And my wife was excited to see it. She's got tats and some nice ones and >> and uh and it was cool. It's cool. It's I don't believe by chance. It was by chance. It was by God. >> Yeah. But that was awesome. Yeah. >> Well, it's like both of us have some tattoos on our forearms that will lead to a question from somebody. So, like if you're sitting at a restaurant, the number of times I've just been sitting there and somebody walks by, a server, somebody else, and then they kind of like do a double take. They're like, "Whoa, whoa. I've never seen, you know, work like that." And then obviously it's not subtle. It's Jesus with a crown of thorns. You got a lamb of God there. You know, this Goltha, you got the three crosses. You got David holding Goliath severed head right here. So it's like it's not exactly, you know, super subtle what what what I believe and what I would like to represent. And so it does lead to some cool conversations and stuff like that, but I mean for you, you've had >> quite quite the life, quite the trajectory. Um, so there's maybe a little bit more behind your forearm tattoos than mine in terms of like the roads the road you went down. >> But that that's honestly why I wanted you and we had such a good conversation at lunch today just kind of talking about >> different things that you've been into. But I do want to kind of get into your story and your testimony >> because you know for those of you that haven't, we'll put it in the show notes, but the the book that you wrote a few years ago is called Ascent from Darkness. >> But I mean there's decades and decades and decades of stuff that goes in to your story or your testimony. But as I was refreshing cuz I mean I read the book after I met you. So I mean I read the book 14 years ago or something like that, >> right? >> I was kind of refreshing myself on the material from the book. And if we even just start going back to your childhood, >> pretty rough um uh experience some abuse in some different things like that. And I think that kind of dovetales into some of the things that you ended up doing. So I know it's not a great place to start, but it might be appropriate to kind of start with childhood. >> Yeah. And a lot of it I don't remember. I think it's the Lord protecting me from some of those memories. And uh uh yeah, it was just a rough, you know, I just remember back from early childhood. I'm I'm talking five or six. I never wanted to live. I always wanted to die. And that's kind of unusual for a kid. Even up to high school, probably. I played football and all that, but in in those years, it was like I I just didn't want to be here on Earth. >> I always felt like I was different than most people. And uh I was it was just kind of a sad childhood. It was uh one where there's a particular bridge. I remember I lived in Culver City, California and a bridge over Lobalona Creek and and I'd walk past her almost every day and it was probably 50 or 60 ft down to the bottom and I wondered how much that would hurt once I jump off. I mean that went on for years and years and years. So, it was I wouldn't say I don't know if it's a I know it's depression, but for a kid that young for a kid that young to to go through that, you know, uh I didn't know why, you know, I mean, I didn't have a clue why. Cuz to me, what I was living was normal if that's what you're used to. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, I'm I'm curious for you because there are a lot of people in the audience that maybe don't understand that. They've never experienced that, right? >> But like for you, >> I mean, what did it feel like at the time? to feel like, hey, this is just my normal life, but man, this doesn't feel good. Maybe there's there's something better. Hey, I've done something to kind of deserve this because this is kind of pre you exploring your thoughts about God or whatever. >> Yeah. Uh although, you know, we went to a mainstream church. >> This is in California. >> Yeah. It was Catholic church. I love the Catholics, you know, and I grew up Catholic. And I would go there sometimes just by myself. it would be a mile or two walking away from our house and and go there and just cry. I mean, I just cry. So, I think I was always attached in a sense to God. I knew I was cuz he's given every man a measure of faith, but I didn't know what that meant. I just knew that uh you know, later in life, people would say, "Well, how could you serve Satan?" You know, I mean, how could you do that? Well, that's all I knew. I didn't really know the true living God because I had exper I've experienced it in nature I guess and seen the the things he's created in church. I heard the sermons but uh you know you're too young to really explore that you know so but inside there was always this pull towards him even though there was a lot of darkness around me too. >> Well so like kind of getting into that darkness. So I feel a pull towards the darkness because I mean the mission of undone life is equipping men to push back darkness. Okay. Well, if I refuse to go anywhere near the dark, how am I going to equip people for it? Because like if I'm covering my eyes and plugging my ears and you know, when I say darkness and when you say darkness, there's obviously very differing levels of what you and I have experienced and allowed to kind of happen. >> But I'm I'm just again I'm trying to remember even going back, you know, there was an experience with your grandmother. I think that she >> she said she said I would uh uh I was like the third generation and I would serve the dark the dark side. And uh I didn't know what that meant. when I was a six-year-old kid, you know, and she did stuff to me that, you know, uh >> I'd be in even earlier than that, I'd be in diapers and she would throw me up until I hit the ceiling and drop, you know, and and that wasn't very nice. I remember it >> and until I passed out, until something happened >> and I'd crawl around the house just trying to escape her and others in the family, you know. I was just trying to get some rest, you know, and it was I'm not saying it was always terrible, but things like that stuck out to me, you know. I was like a puppy injured. >> Yeah. >> And uh darkness uh to me was that's the default in this world isn't good, it's evil. It's not light, it's darkness. or we wouldn't have to choose light. So the default most people now you're good is now we're evil and we have to we have to I'm not saying a child is inherently evil but we all are being born in this world you know what I mean and darkness is is what's prevalent not light and we have to choose that light and choose the way that we're going after that. So like it was dark in in a lot of different ways. I mean I had there's some good parts of my life when I was young but there was a lot of bad parts too and most of it was mental I think. that kind of a mental abuse and uh it just works on you till you're just why am I even here? But you're too young to commit Harry Kerry or to you know I thought about jumping off that bridge almost every day for probably 12 years 13 years but then things came along after a while football and some outside activities that I I got into that helped kind of thwart all that thought you know some positive stuff. Well, but I'm even curious still going back. There has to be some consternation with a young boy who sees all this darkness and and abuse and just bad behavior, but also your family, I mean, I don't know what you would call them. They were like kind of Christian or culturally Christian or maybe like nominally Christian. Yeah. >> And so, you kind of get, >> you know, a bit of this Christian morality or church morality at a minimum, but then you also see all this depravity. And if that's all you've ever seen, then that becomes kind of your baseline, >> right? >> And that just kind of has some redounding effects into your future. >> Yeah. It's like uh it's like who wants to live like that? >> Yeah. >> I'm an all or nothing type guy and I even was as a kid, even though the depression and everything that was hitting me. If you're going to do something, go do it. You know, if you're going to serve evil, just serve evil. You know what I mean? If you're going to uh serve good, why why the mix? You know what I mean? M >> uh which later on brought in my life when I did get saved. I I told God, I'm I you I want to do this. This is great. I never had peace like this, but I don't want to be lukewarm. And he chuckled. I heard a chuckle saying, "Son, you've never been lukewarm. You You're either this way or that way." And as a child, it just was perplexing to me. They even thought I had autism and all kinds of stuff going on because, you know, I could think fast and move. You know, I could solve problems quickly, but I couldn't solve those internal problems. I didn't know what to do. and I wasn't equipped for it. >> So, >> so kind of extrapolate that out as you're growing up because you said you you did find some positive things. You found football, you found some like activities >> that could get you away from home or distract you from some other things that were going on, but obviously you still had the the internal turmoil to a degree. like at what point did you feel like you came to I don't know a different understanding of who God was or kind of like that that fork in the road just spiritually to where because again if if we believe that the law is written on our hearts and you know Romans it talks about how you know the law's in there it's written on there that's that's the the natural law and then there's the moral law that we get from God's revelation expressed through scripture >> but all of us kind of have this inkling of we know there's a creator god out there like one of my good buddies says like you never find like a long lost tribe of atheists like that's not really a thing like everyone kind of has kind of a god structure but it's just how does that work itself out so when do you feel like you started or what age >> started kind of reckoning with okay creator god is he good like that kind of stuff >> well I always thought he was evil I thought he was bipolar you know I mean I thought he was good but he was evil I mean anything you read in the to me if I read in the old testament man my god you know killing people and murder and and he had allowed that and and my grandmother read that uh you know the scripture I I created light I created dark I created good I created evil the Lord do all these things and the way I saw that was my gosh you do them both you know what I mean so I thought God was both good and evil and that evil was my part in life because he never heard my cries you know he never you know little kid crying and um he just I thought that I was one that was just going to serve evil you know, I didn't like it. I didn't want to. >> Yeah. >> But that I thought that was my lot in life, you know. So, >> and not that I was evil when I was a kid. >> Yeah. >> But the thoughts, you know, the thoughts and and uh the uh just the punishments I'd get and I had a couple bright lights in my life. Oscar Owens, who lived down the street, was an old man that taught me how to fly fish and uh garden. and he would uh I remember one time I was I my pants run unzipped or something he you know and I had bruises on me and he knew something was going on but back then we didn't have like DHS you know so he'd he'd go here let me help you tuck your shirt in or whatever he wanted to do and he was so gentle and kind and loving that that was my refuge is walk down the street to Oscar Owens or to Mrs. Zimmons around the block who I took care of, you know, as a kid. I'd uh actually change her diaper and I'm not talking eight, nine years old, mow her yard, all that kind of stuff. She's just gentle and kind, go to the store for and all that. So, those were kind of my areas I'd go to, you know, to get a little peace. Not that my house was not peaceful. It wasn't always chaotic, you know what I mean? But there were a lot of times of chaos. And so it seems like you had some good service there. Even just the the inkling for a little boy, you know, eight or nine years old to take care of a woman around, right? You know, maybe it seems like didn't have family around or a husband around or anyone like that to care for. >> But you were still kind of being drawn towards dark. And I'm just wondering like even to extrapolate it out further like where the thought that okay God is fully good but also fully bad and we only get to serve one side of that like kind of like where something like that comes from. >> I don't know but because you can't serve both you know scripture now that I know scripture you can't serve both. You either love love one and hate the other you know you cannot serve both. But in my little mind, you know, I tried to think this stuff out to a point until it got exhausting. And then I would just go to whatever uh whatever I want to say escape in my own mind or or I'd be by myself. I was always lonely. You know, I always separate myself from anybody except for Em Mrs. Emmens and and Oscar Owens. And even playing football, I wasn't a team member. You know, I played I did the best I could. I did really well, but I didn't really associate with anybody, you know, all through school. I was just I'd get in fights and get kicked out of school occasionally because I was that's I was hurting. Didn't realize it even in kindergarten. >> Yeah. Did you not associate with people because you felt like you didn't deserve friendship or love or it was just like, "Hey, I'm an outcast. I'm just going to own the part." Well, you know, I don't I don't know what the process was then other than uh I just always wanted to be alone and not you don't know where harm's coming from, you know, so I didn't know who to trust, who not to trust. So, it's one of those things where I think >> remembering back I just didn't want to be harassed or bothered. So, it's like a best I'm thinking about is a scared wolf in a corner. Yeah. >> You know, just cowering. Now, I'll fight. You know, I'm gonna fight. there's going to be a fight sooner or later, but I'm first going to retreat, you know, and then uh you know, it was just that kind of a childhood. Uh I've got four siblings I haven't seen in 20 years, you know, I mean, and every one of them had there's issues, some kind sort of issues, you know, and and so I I looking back thinking, was that all real? Yeah, it was real or we wouldn't be so disjointed and dysfunctional, you know what I mean? So, >> yeah. So, so for you even within the football and you're you're kind of doing some different things that are positive, you you kind of made a choice and you already talked about it where it's like, okay, you can serve the light or the dark, the good or the bad. And so you felt like this natural darkness or you know, you know, direction or attraction to the bad side of the ledger, I guess you could call it. But you kind of were, again, trying to remember, like you were kind of flirting with some things that were on on the darker side of things or the satanic side of things, but then you you eventually basically made a declaration and dedication of your life to those things. >> Yeah. >> So, talk a little bit about when you started like not just, hey, yeah, you know, I'm kind of attracted to the dark. I I do kind of more of the dark side of things, but when you started like acting out specifically on those impulses. >> It was after a divorce. I was like 37 years old, you know? I mean, I was older in life when I thought, man, I've just enough of this stuff. Uh, obviously, uh, dark darkness is more powerful than good. Cuz all I saw were Christians that were lukewarm. >> I saw people that were weak. I don't, you know, I hate weakness. And that's a problem I have today even is is not judging somebody on their weakness. You know what I mean? Because that's what I used to do as a a Satanist is dig into somebody's weakness and try and destroy them. So, I was like 37 years old. I think it was right after my divorce. Let me think about that. It was uh it was in ' 87. So, no, I was uh 31 years old, I guess. And going through divorce, losing the kids uh due to, you know, just a horrible relationship with ex-wife. And uh and I was alone, although I liked loan, you know, being alone, I just missed those kids. So, uh, that's, you know, there's a particular night that this entity appeared and and I thought, man, I'm just going to I'm going for it. You know, this this guy's not done anything for me, you know? I mean, I evidently he's having fun with me. You know, we're just all in this chess match and I'm losing. You know, I'm just a pawn in this somewhere. And that's how I thought God was. And so, I just thought, well, I'll just be some the James Dean of the church. just turn rebel and just come against God. Why not? >> So when you say like an entity >> Mhm. >> like talk about that like like what do you mean? What does what does that describe? >> I was on a couch. I was living with a girl uh girlfriend at the time. It was uh probably a year after my marriage. It was in Edmund, you know, uh uh by this time I'd moved to Edmund. And I don't know, just just this darkness came over me. Uh, you know, I was listening to some rock music I like and you know, some of the lyrics were not exactly something maybe I should have been listening to, but I was listening to it and thinking how evil God is. You know, he's both good and evil. He has to be. Look at He created it all. So, how can he blame this on anybody else? And I got to to get mad at God. I knew there was a God, you know? I just thought he was both ways. And uh I thought, man, I'm going to get even if I can with this guy, you know what I mean? I didn't really know him. So, and this God is so great to forgiven me for all that cuz he knows he knew my heart. >> And uh I just wanted to serve evil and get back on my ex-wife and her her boyfriend and and everything else. And I thought the only way to do that really is to serve the the true evil guy, you know, which is Satan, you know what I mean? So, uh, I was on the couch and I contemplating this and speaking out loud, which I thought was weird, you know, the the tongue is so powerful. And I thought, and then all of a sudden the couch sank, it sounds crazy. Right next to me, and instructed me to go to B. Dalton bookstore. There was a bookstore in Oklahoma City at the time called B Daltton. And just say, "Hey, let's go to the bookstore." Now, was that in my mind? Whatever it was, but that couch sank. I remember looking at it kind of frightened me for a minute. Uh the couch cushion just sank and I go, "Okay, this is more powerful than I thought." So I went there and I bought a book of shadows and a satanic Bible. Went straight to the New Age section. Like I'd been there 100 times. Never been there. Didn't even look at the books. I saw them both, picked it up and started reading that night. And that started my my uh book I made down my uh path down the dark side. And so at that time after you purchased the books, took them back to your place and started reading them, >> it still kind of seems like you're maybe just dabbling like, "All right, well, this is >> I was told or compelled somehow some way to go do this thing and I I just did it. I just I kind of acquiesed. I you know, I went down the path or whatever." >> But you're still just kind of dabbling. It's still curiosity, right? It's kind of like a morbid curiosity. It's kind of macob, but like you're you're still just kind of curious. >> So just kind of extrapolate out from there. like were whenever you're reading these kind of these satanic books, satanic Bible, different occultic readings, was there something in there that was attractive to you? Was there stuff inside the text that you were drawn to that kind of kind of kept you on this path? >> Well, I think the spells and the curses and uh I I wanted to get even with anybody that's ever hurt me before, especially my ex-wife, you know what I mean? And I thought, man, there's got to be a way this we're for some reason I believe since I was a kid, we're spiritual beings, you know? I just had to believe that there's more to this. It's probably the reason I'd never killed myself. I thought, wait, this there's more repercussions from this than just jumping off a bridge. You know what I mean? So, somehow inside of me, I thought, wait. And it could have been being baptized in a Catholic church or going through confirmation or the the times in the church that I'd see the crucifix up and just think, man, poor dude on that cross, you know, I hope hope he's okay. you know, I mean, in my little mind, I hated seeing that thing because almost felt like I was part of that, you know what I mean, in some way. And I always saw uh, you know, I could always kind of see stuff, you know, so it was and my mom had that gift and I, you know, there's something holding me in. But that night, I just I was at the I was at home, got the books, started reading them, just intrigued by dark because we are intrigued by darkness. I mean, most the people that I ever kind of convince to go in the darkness, there's a an appeal to it. There's a kind of a lust for it, you know? I mean, we're all drawn to darkness, you know, because that's our nature inherently is our nature is not God. It's darkness. Even though inside, I believe God's put a measure of faith in everybody. But being born in this world, we're drawn to darkness. You know what I mean? And u I mean, first John talks about it. the word came into the world, you know what I mean? But people refuse it because there's sin, all that. That's people that know. But I think even as kids, uh there's a there's a path that's easier and it's the world and and it's darkness than choose making this choice. But I sat there and uh contemplated and I said, "Man, heck yeah. I want to serve the dark side because there seems to be a lot of power in it." You know what I mean? And so I made a choice that night and I never knew anything about blood sacrifices for instance but the first thing I did was cut my arm and bled and it felt powerful. I mean just to see the blood now I know you know that's very spiritual you know Mark 5:5 a man in a cave he's cutting himself with stones. Uh first kings 18:28 for they cut themselves with knives and lances to their god. So cutting is nothing new. Uh I believe not all cutters are Satanists, but all Satanists I believe are cutters. Sooner or later they're going to be cutting and drawing blood, mocking the it's mocking mocking the blood of Christ. You can bleed. I can believe. But uh it was that moment and I cut I started lighting candles and it was more of a ritual thing of uh what I do next. You know what I mean? So I started reading the text and stuff and start following some of that and that got kind of boring to me because that's more Lan Satanism which Anton le which is your own god which is true we're our own god you know and then it got into theistic after a few years into theistic where I worship Satan not just the idea of Satan you know I mean he was my god but initially the first six or seven years it was the it was more uh not theistic but a levan to where no I can >> just more carnal >> it's all it's our flesh >> which is why you know people that just serve the world and serve themselves uh perfect Satanist Satanism is narcissism you know because it's opposite of what the Lord wants you know learn of me I'm meek and lowly in heart in Matthew 11 uh we're narcissists it's all about them you know one for all for me and that's the perfect form of Satanism I believe in the church today or in the world today. >> You know, they're not really serving God. They're serving their own interests. You know, he's trying to get us away from that through teaching. But that's what I started in. And the Levan Satanism is funny. He started a satanic church and I believe 69, wrote the Bible in ' 67, I believe. And uh it's you're your own god. Do as you can to fulfill the flesh and make yourself happy. So, it's more it's a different type, but it's still Satanism. Why would you call the book of Satan if you don't really believe in Satan? They claim they don't believe in Satan. >> Yeah. That's the thing that people don't really understand with Satanists is they think that, okay, they they believe in God. They believe in Satan. They just prefer Satan. It's like the majority of people that cla Well, I don't know, majority. But there is a a strong contingent of people that claim Satanism that are just atheists. They don't believe in God or Satan. They don't believe in angels or demons. They believe we're highly evolved chimps, right, that got here because we eventually back some part in the day we were goo or space goo or something and now we're people that can talk or whatever. >> And so let's just stay with those first. You said I think it was six or seven years with Lean Satanism. Again, this is carnal pagan. It's, you know, it's very much feeding of your own flesh and fleshly desires, which are ultimately earthly desires, all the things. And so what were the things that you learned during that period? Because I I can't help but notice you didn't have a whole lot of control over your circumstances as a kid, >> right? >> All of a sudden, you are sent to this bookstore, right? You get these books, you cut yourself, and now you feel power. When you feel power, you feel like you're in control. Like you can start controlling things. Control leads to manipulation of circumstances and people. But let's stick with that kind of that first before you got to the theistic Satanism. Kind of like >> what were you doing? What were you learning about yourself? What were you what was changing about you? Well, I think what it was is like you said, I have the power to do this. So, it's not just, you know, in psychology it would be he can't find himself or and very few men cut themselves, >> you know, unless feminine type thing. Yeah. >> But it's it's a form of I think it's a form of power over that I can do it. Nobody else can do it to me. Basically, >> power over your own flesh. Yeah. And and I recognized early on even as a kid and I talk about it and I'll say a word that I don't mean rude, but it's power, puss, and money. >> Yeah. >> You know, that's what controls the world. You know what I mean? So, it's one of those three. Uh the power thing is powerful. The sexual is powerful whether you're woman or man. And and the money thing, you know? So th those things. And I recognized that early on that that's what people really wanted. You know what I mean? more than anything is that stuff of the world. And ironically, when I switched over, you know, I was in school at the time doing my undergrad at UCO and then I went to grad school at at OU, but I man, I was fast. I I was going through school fast. I think there was a lot of demonic help there. I'd ask for things and get blessed with it because Satan can bless you, too. You know, it's just, you know, he can heal. He can do miracles. So, I noticed more spiritual things going on. Either that or I was just more aware of them. But I started becoming more aware of spiritual stuff happening almost immediately, you know, uh cursing pastors and they start stuttering when I went there. I could find all the women I wanted. I was no great, it's not like I'm this greatlooking guy, but I was young and viral and and man, I could I mean, I could walk into the room and tell you who I was going to sleep with that night, you know, and then my gig was to go to Bible studies and stuff and then lure them out of there. So that seed I talk about uh talking about STDs in my Bible, but I call them satanically transmitted diseases, you know what I mean? where I'd I'd have sex with them and try to pass on the seed of Satan to them. They were unknowing, you know what I mean? They didn't know who I was. I could quote scripture because I was fast reader and uh and just get to them that way. I was trying to lure I was trying to destroy as many Christians as I could period. >> Yeah. >> Manipulation, control, mind control, uh just doing stuff, sleeping with the women, and uh just tearing their lives up. I mean, just literally tearing their lives. And that was after just a couple years of becoming a what I would call uh a Satanist. You know, somebody, you know, bent for that direction, always bent for that direction, which now I know that we all are until we choose the light. >> I mean, we're that stuff's natural. >> So, you have this you have this power, you have this kind of dark purpose, >> then a gift, right, that you and I talked about at lunch that I believe comes from inception. Uh mine was, you know, people say, "Well, you're a pro." No, I'm not a prophet. It's just words of wisdom or words of knowledge, but same thing that a a psychic has that we're just serving different gods. I don't believe it's a gift we get after we become a Christian. I think we have it. >> It's like a directionality of the gift that was already in you. Yes. Kind of a thing. >> And using it for evil instead of good. >> Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you train for very specific things. 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Because, you know, without the, you know, that that turmoil of the Holy Spirit, it's like you're not feeling that guilt. >> And so, you're going into these places that are calling themselves holy and you're pulling people out and you're appealing to their carnal desires and you're able to get them into their sin nature because they already have it, but you're getting them to sin actively in their sin nature. >> But, I mean, obviously, it didn't stop there. >> How much power is that to be able to pull people out? I mean, my gosh, that's one of the things power plus and money I call it or power, you know, and uh it was just my euphoric. I couldn't get enough of it cuz I never had that as a child. I never had any kind of power at all. >> So, it was wonderful. It was like enlightening. You know what I mean? >> Right. >> I didn't know I was digging a hole deeper and deeper and deeper. >> Well, I mean, let's go down the hole a little bit because you're digging this hole. You feel like you're in control, but it's like that person that's in quicksand that just doesn't realize it. Like they're just happy and the frog in water. >> Yeah, that's right. Frog and boiling water. >> But at some point, you realize you are you are digging this hole or the things that you were doing and the boxes you were checking were weren't enough. Like it wasn't enough control. It wasn't enough, you know, servitude in the direction of dark to where you I mean, at some point, I guess you could say you crossed over uh from more of the carnal Satanism to the theistic Satanism that that you talked about. And so, I guess what preceded you making that shift? Was it kind of like a a stark shift? Like you can remember this is whenever I like changed into more the theistic side. >> Yeah, it was uh I had a nice house. I was making I was getting everything that I asked for from Satan. You know, money, women, whatever. And now I know that anything temporal, you can't get enough of. So, if it's just passing, you can't get enough of any of that. Drugs, you cannot get enough until what? You're dead right? >> You know what I mean? Uh you kill yourself or overdose on drugs or uh get some STD that kills you or whatever. But you cannot have enough of that. That's why the Lord leads us away from it. But at that point uh going from theistic uh I mean not from theistic but from uh lean I saw that as kitty. I never wanted to join uh kind of kitty play. >> I never saw it I saw it more flesh. You know what I mean? After a while I'm going wait a second this isn't enough. I wanted more power. >> You know what I mean? I wanted more of what I had this ugliness inside. I can't even describe it to you. And the depression at the time was horrible. Orgasmic. I call it orgasmic. It was just like I was super depressed. Right on the edge of living and dying the whole time I was in Satanism and didn't even realize it, you know? I mean, I was just I'd always been like that, you know? I was always there between life and death. And that's kind of cool in a way. You're right on the edge. Do I do this or not? There's a lot of power in jumping because you finally decide to jump. But I could never do it. which means I was weak, you know, and and later on in life when things happen at Life Church, you know, uh I couldn't fulfill what I needed to do. But at that moment, I'll get back to that moment from um from Levan. There just wasn't enough there. I thought, man, this is everyday life. I mean, these are people that like you said, atheists. We talked about this is just anybody. >> I want to go deeper, man. I want more than just that. And that's when I decided, you know, he is a god, Satan, many god, you know what I mean? Uh he did. I didn't understand how he could get kicked out of heaven. There's certain things biblically I could not understand. He was there and then he get kicked out. So what's how could this be good for any of us? We can all get kicked out, you know, cuz I didn't have enough of the truth then to to sink into me to get to know the truth. So uh I just started serving him. Say, "Wait a second. This is what I'm going to do." you know, and that was after probably seven, eight years, I think, now that I wanted him as my Lord. I mean, that's who I wanted because I thought, man, why go why go to this intermediary people? Why I just want to go straight up to him and serve him? And so, the rituals got deeper. Uh, the cutting got deeper. The interesting about cutting, they're light at first. They get deeper and deeper because I think he's trying to kill you. I think sooner or later, you're going to kill yourself. So all that transgression against God and against people sooner or later is going to eat you up. You know, there was lots of times in there I had little voices in my head saying, "Hey, you know what I mean? Stop. Stop it. Where'd that come from? Never heard that before." >> So while you're in the throws of all this, you you could feel a prompting that you needed to stop. >> Yeah. Yeah, I did. Uh uh and to be honest, uh you know, I wrote a book, you know, about it. Uh, I was writing that in, it came out in really 12, the late 11, 12, but I was writing it in 10 and a lot of this stuff I didn't realize until I wrote my book. >> So, you're looking back. Yeah. >> So, when I started writing this, I'm going, "Wow, how deep you were into it." And it made more sense after I started writing it out. But back then, I just wanted uh, man, if I want to do something, I'm going all the way with it. >> Yeah. >> That's my n that's who I am personally. So I went all the way and started serving. Okay, Lord, I want you. Just like we'd have a come Just like we'd have a choice for the Lord, I made it for Satan, you know, cuz if you're both ways, let's say it's one character both ways. I've never seen the light, per se, that I knew of. Now, I had prompting and stuff, but and everything's been bad and that's all I know. I'm not talking about horrible time, my parents and all that. I'm not saying that they were all evil. I'm not saying that. What I'm what I am saying is to me in my mind growing up the way I grew up, it was all bad, depressing, bad. I might as well just serve the dark side all the way. And that's what I did. And then that that's when I started learning about theistic versus, you know, like Antony and his church, satanic church. >> So you you say you made a decision, >> right? A choice. >> And so you made a choice to do that. So, what does that even look like? >> Uh, just like we with the Lord, man. I Hey, Satan, come into my life fully now. I mean, forget this stuff here, >> Lean. I mean, that seems a little weak to me. You know, I mean, it's kind of cool. >> Yeah. And we're just putting spells on people and casting this and fulfilling our flesh. I can still do that with you, but I need real power, you know? And that's when I thought, all right, you're my Lord. What do you want to What do you want of me? I'll serve you with everything. And then stuff just got darker and darker and darker. Now in that, you don't really realize it. I was never fearful. Not until I tried to come out of it, you know. So I was never fearful until I tried to get out of the satanic. But in that period, man, I just felt there's nothing better than this. Get to fulfill the flesh. I'm making great lots of money, you know? Uh anything I wanted, I really felt like I had. And I felt like Satan gave it to me. But that all comes to an end sooner sooner or later >> when it comes with a cost and high cost. >> Okay. So let's talk about because you said after you made this decision things got darker and darker. So so what things like what what were the actions you were partaking in like how did you go from like yeah this is kind of dark to no we're we're getting really dark here. >> You know killing animals sacrificing animals which is is bad. Uh uh I had blackouts a lot during my whole life. I've had blackouts of times I don't recall. It's like alcoholic. Later on I found it was did that I had, you know, uh but I had these blackouts during these times and and uh I'd go, you know, several hours not know what I did. I thought, well, this is cool. I mean, that's even a neat thing because it takes you out of reality. Yep. You know what I mean? So killing, you know, killing animals and and just the plotting and and the uh uh just the meanness about me, you know what I mean? Came to light. Now, I didn't show it because I was a good manipulator. I didn't, you know, I was quiet. I, you know, I was uh pretty reserved. I wasn't real loud. I had a great sense of humor, by the way, during this whole time. I lured people in with a great I always had a great sense of humor, even on the dark side. >> But and but I had charity in me, too. I'd give cars away to people that really needed it. I had a good friend, Jim Kim Kimbro, who is still a good friend that tried to have me, he tried to convert me and I say, "Hey, no, I'm not into that, but uh if you leave me alone and you know, we have our times, we talk and you know, I bought I gave him a car and he really needed it and and uh there's times of charity in there. It's not all again, it's like growing up is mirrored growing up. A lot of good times, a lot of bad times. They were mixed. I just thought that's the way life was. But I had that heart to help people of service even though I might have different plans for them later on. Depends if they ticked me off or not. Depends if I was angry or not. >> Right. And so I guess I would assume the the powers that you had more in the lean side of things, those powers became like you were more manipulative like more just fine tuned. It's like uh basil instincts. You know, I could smell further. I could taste. I could sense uh you know, I could sense fear in people. You know, there's a smell that comes off of people when they're fearful just like animals. Uh the sex stuff, I could sense that, you know. I mean, I could tell by smells, you know. I mean, just everything got enhanced. I'm going, man, this is too dang good. You know what I mean? Uh I saw more, you know, uh visions, that kind of stuff. And uh it just it just seemed like it was all coming together. But but >> right >> at the end of that I I uh I was living in a night really nice house close to here by the way within two miles of here uh with a girlfriend I've been with for nine years. And I I was sleeping and having horrible nightmares. I had nightmares like you couldn't believe. and she knew I was on the dark side. You know, she's Christian and it's one thing I I don't get I talk about in the book. Most of the question I get, well, what happened to Maggie Rich? Why would she live with you and she's a Christian and she knows you're into some dark stuff. Uh I don't know, maybe she thought it was trying to save me or but I had this horrible, horrible dream that kind of started the process of of uh coming to know who God was. And uh it was uh very weird. I woke up and two of my teeth were missing. Blood was on, you know, nashed them out. I knocked them out in my sleep. It was just that kind of a dream. And uh I don't know what happened to where they were, you know, but I was bleeding and woke up and she was on my rear about something, you know. I wasn't saved, of course, and and I ended up hitting her. I I couldn't really speak about it in a book because you can't talk about thing, you know, I she wasn't going to sign anything to let me talk about it. But um but in the dream, you want to hear about it. If it doesn't turn you to Christ, nothing would. But in this dream, I was falling for miles. I mean, just falling and falling in this dream. And I finally end up hitting like in a cavern. And I landed on a uh I landed on like a railroad timber and there was little light in there from just embers glowing. And uh it wasn't hot. It was actually very cold. And I I fell and fell and fell and hit. And I'm I'm writing about it right now. And actually I said that my screams weren't heard for generations. That's how far away I was from anything, right? There was no love. There was no touch. There was no You're totally alone in pain and suffering mentally every which way and there was no help at all. Nothing. I mean, if that's not scary, that would be my hell cuz I I don't believe that hell is per se burning and all that. I think that there's different type I think there's layers of hell. I think there's layers of heaven, but in my particular hell that was that I fell, which falling isn't fun because I've had many falls in my life and got hurt. But I was falling for for days and hit screaming out. Nobody heard it. I wake up and my teeth are bleeding, my mouth's bleeding. I get in a fight with my my girl and uh end up uh she didn't press charges or anything, but end up I there was a squirrel hole on top of my house that I had to get covered up because it was up in the attic bothering us. That same day I I woke up and I was just like beat. That dream was I was thinking about that dream. Well, while I was up there, something knocked me off the roof. Literally, it's like this being just hit me and knocked me straight off that roof. You're Europe uh 15 feet or more. I'm up the peak. Interesting enough, I hit the deck on a 2x4 on my back and left a huge bruise on there. But while I was on that deck, I had that same dream again. I think it was the Lord saying, "Hey, you better wake up." So I came to I I think I was out for maybe 10 minutes. I came to and it was a I think the very same day I went in and looked at my back. I was hurting and you know I just fallen 15 I I was thrown 15 feet and I used to think that was Satan but I think it was an angel. I think it was God. I truly did allow that to happen to try and jolt me. Had the same dream again. the identical dream of falling and nobody near me at all. No affection, nothing, no love, no warmth. And uh I woke up and tended to my back. It was bleeding and a big old bruise. I mean, supernatural bruise that shouldn't have been that soon, you know what I mean? And and the girl came home and she goes, "Man, what happened to you?" And I told her and she goes, "Well, that's good. I'm glad I you know, it happened to you." By the way, is Jesus your Lord? first time she asked me and nine years of being together. No, he's not. You know that. And looked her stone cold in the face and said, "No." She goes, "Well, I'm leaving, taking the kids." Okay. Right now, okay. And that started our departure, you know, of of splitting up and taking assets and moving them and whatever else we did. But, but when she asked me that, I could not say he wasn't he wasn't my God. Satan was my God. even after what that fall. But that fall helped me uh kind of really put into reality of the circumstances I was into. It made me think harder because I've always been a deep thinker. I don't want to think deep. I want to be shallow. It's easier. But I started thinking about that fall and how horrible that would be to be in that position. Forget messing with people and getting all the women you want and the power and the money. I had, you know, any of that I wanted. But what if I'm wrong? You know what I mean? And that kind of that was a turning point. That particular day was a turning point to where I started toying with the idea of be there was a good God, too. And that they had to be separate. They can't be two in one. You know, they're three in one. That was even trip me out even more. >> But they can't be both good and evil. It doesn't make sense. So that start my trek down the other path. >> So, but you're still at this point in the throws of theistic uh like Satanism, right? >> And I guess that's another thing that's that's interesting about this conversation is >> the way we see Satanism portrayed or maybe where we default to thinking in our brains. It's, >> you know, people wearing all black and robes and listening to this overtly satanic music. Not covertly like most pop music, but over like overtly satanic music. And it's, you know, the dark makeup and it's the presenting yourself as constantly depressed or like, you know, the evil and you're putting on makeup to even look like you're bleeding from your mouth. Like it's it's almost like a caricature, which there certainly are people that do those types of things. They will go out to rallies and they will put horns on and they will they will do all these different things, right? But you were a guy, you know, working a job like doing your normal clean >> Yeah. clean cut guy, you know, had a family. >> And so it's just like a different kind of plausibility structure for a lot of people. But here you are in the throws of this of theistic Satanism and then you get thrown off of a roof, no pun intended. You're literally thrown off this roof and then things start to kind of unravel, right? You have a relationship that unravels. Obviously, the moving of assets and ending of relationships can get really, really nasty in a myriad of different ways. >> But let's just kind of keep that going. So, are you still feeling like you're digging the hole deeper down towards more darkness or are you are you paused here? >> Well, maybe paused for a brief second, less than a day because where did I get my power from? >> You know, I mean, so that was a fleeting thought for a minute. Necro, you know, just a flare that got shot in your Okay. You know what I mean? But uh I think the moment that really changed me was a was maybe two years later and uh in that moment I had a vision cuz I always have seen I don't know which whatever you want to call it and I saw a trap door. I was still in grad school. I was saw this trap door and if you will, that was my mind. You know what I mean? That was me going in this trap door and I feared that I would go in and have my fun, but that trap door could shut and I wouldn't have rational thought again. See what I mean? You and I talked about dementia at lunch and stuff, but in my mind, I didn't want to lose power over my mind. So, I don't know where that came from, but I saw a trap door. I'm going through it. But I had to be careful how far I went down this rabbit hole because I went too far. I felt like I could go too far to where I wouldn't have rational thought, now I don't have choice anymore. So, if God's a choice, which he is, you know what I mean? And I had enough people coming after me to be a Christian that I remember everything they said. You know what I mean? people come visit the house and at times I give them satanic Bibles or or I'd give them stuff to try and scare them away and they take them and burn them and you know I've had that three or four times five times in that time period people come to try to witness to me even though they feared me they tried to witness I thought you're just weak but good thing to try but in there was this trap door and I never I always wanted to keep my mind so I thought I if I pass through this trap door and it won't then I won't have a choice, you know, and I think that was death. >> And you know, I wouldn't have this choice. So that probably woke me up more than anything which started my venture down. Uh and then Jim Kimbro and a few men of my life uh uh the thing at Life Church happened where I was going to kill Pastor Craig and they they they caught me. I had wanted posters at every every one of their campuses, maybe 10 of them at that time. And uh I'd listened, you know, it was the same time I'd go to visit their church for a year cuz my girlfriend went there and my daughter. So they were trying to get me saved and >> and uh >> So you were attending church like as a practicing Satanist? Like how does that even like >> uh Well, I'd stay in the back. I I'd eat their donuts and drink their coffee and stay in the back, but in there you >> blend in cuz you're clean cut and all clean cut. I even got more clean cut. Yeah, you I'm going to look the part and but I'd never go in the sanctuary cuz I I it was like gave me chills. I I there's no way I'm going in that sanctuary. You know what I mean? There's no >> chills. How like fearful? >> No, just not I wasn't fearful. It was like uh I mean I guess it would be a form of fear. Wasn't fear as much as it was uh uh I didn't want any part of it. >> You no part of that. You know what I mean? I didn't want my mind changed even though the stuff even though all this mental stuff's going on and this trap door and that dream kept on coming back to haunt me. And uh I didn't want to go in there and give in to these pansy Christians. So yeah, no way. They don't they don't even know what they're doing. They don't have any power. And uh one time my I'd always carry a 9mm Glock back here, a couple clips in my pocket and waiting for the moment for Satan to tell me, you know, this is this the moment. I this guy's left-handed. This cop, he's going to be slow to draw him to his right. Uh that cop's looking at all the girls. You know, he's his mind's nowhere near and you know how many cops there's cops and FBI people, everybody. A lot of law enforcement at Life Church even back then. uh you know the perfect timings when he went out that side door and there's a u there's a you know a generator there making sound and and the the the satellites right there I mean that's the time to get them you know so I had it all plotted out after a year stalking them but uh even during that time but I got caught I you know I was I went there and uh cop noticed me and said are you Michael Leehan you know yeah and I reached you I went to reach but That combined with the trap door and then the dream reoccurring dream uh just kind of jolted me and hearing the scripture for a year inside that church foyer, >> right? >> And then one time he was teaching on demons. Wouldn't you know it? >> This is Craig. >> Craig. And uh yeah, I thought he was a pansy, you know, I thought he was not really straight guy, you know. I thought, you know, you know, whatever. He liked men, whatever. But uh but my girlfriend says, "Cold, will you you mind bringing me a cup of coffee later?" And I'm going, "You I can't let onto her what I'm really doing." You know what I mean? >> So I took her in a cup of coffee. That's the first time I ever went in a sanctuary. And he happened to say, "Is anybody hearing from Satan right now? What's the chance of that?" And you know 10,000 people are in there whatever at the at the OKC campus on pin. I mean that thing was packed. And she was sitting there and I go up and the first thing I got to get out of here but inadvertently I raised my hand. I see you sir. They already knew who I was cuz I was already caught in the back room. >> Mhm. >> You mean I never was going to go back there again ever. But I did and I text John Ziggler and said I'm my girlfriend. She's laid down the law and I got to, you know, they tried to get me help. Psychological plus, you got to join Damascus. What's chance of that group called Damascus? >> Yep. >> There's no chance in that. So, I raised my hand and said, "Yeah, I I'm hearing from Satan. I see you." And I walked back out and that was the last I was ever going to go in there. Even though uh something was pulling me, I just my thoughts were more on. I had another satanic ritual and right after that and I was uh it was going to take my life, you know, cuz Satan says you can't even kill him. You can't kill your kids. I mean, what good are you to me? >> I'm thinking, man, that is pretty bad. I mean, at that point, my mind was that far gone. >> So, uh >> well, I do want to kind of go back before we even get to the to the rituals. Let's go back to even the the thought okay I'm going to take out this pastor which during this time period life church was already already very established you know >> 10 campuses maybe >> yeah 10 campuses several books had come out one of the fastest growing if not the fastest growing church in the world or in the United States >> and it's in your backyard right you got you know several campuses within 10 miles of where you're at no matter where you're at in the metro right and so how do you start sensing or feeling or hearing or whatever that you're supposed to go there. Because here's how most people would think that happens. Satan tells you, "I need you to go in this church. I need you to take him out." And you just walk in there, guns blaze, and start going crazy. >> But >> the the, you know, the devil, you know, prowls around like a roaring lion seeking for someone to devour. How often do you see a lion just go off all halfcocked, you know, trying to take out the biggest zebra that's in the stampede, right? You know, no, they're more cunning than that, certainly. So how do you even come to the revelation like hey I need to just listen try to be a fly on the wall I need to you know try to case this place case his movements like go back to even the beginning >> I it was in prayer you know to my gut >> so I'm having a ritual one night and uh >> and maybe even describe what what a ritual is what does that >> yeah I was cutting bleeding and I had an animal you know sacrificing and uh it was in my house that was empty for 3 years cuz I was building it, you know what I mean? It was not building it, remodeling it. Pentagram on the floor, candles, you know, because that's just what you do. It's a ritual, >> you know what I mean? Even in theistic, there's some ritual to it. And, you know, you gain power. I was uh this it came to me through the dark side to kill Pastor Craig. You know what I mean? And anybody got in the way. Did I care about dying? No. not fearful of hell or dying. >> You figured you were gonna die in the process. >> I'm gonna die anyway. Take cops out. I never like cops anyway. And so I had this distinct message like I hear from the Lord now like I hear I heard from Satan. Take him out. So it was more and what's interesting is the visions I had above the church were demons laughing. Couldn't wait for this moment. They're, you know, they're they do their hands like this. And I mean literally had these visions. They could not wait till this happened. And I think about school shootings. I think about stuff happening like that and how much demonic presence there is. >> And we're talking about Charlie Kirk at lunch. >> Yeah. Encouraging people just pushing them over the edge, you know, up close. But that's where I was at. Uh had this ritual course of bloods involved in in my life. I don't people say, "Well, you were a real Satanist." What is a real Satanist? Was real to me. I mean, this is the way I followed them. You're going to have continuity in the church. You can't even have that in a Christian church. You can't have continuity in a Christian church. How you going to have it in a satanic church? What are you joking? You know, that's that was my church. I never was part of a big church or the fellowship because I thought that was weak. Interesting. Some of the talks we had later today, but >> but so it was more solitary. It's more intentful. It's like going to a I'm still on the same subject, but it's like going to a a party and they talk you into drinking and you get in trouble. I didn't want any part of that. Nobody's talking to me and anything. I'm I'm either doing this wholeheartedly for my own heart. >> Yeah. >> I can't blame this on anybody but me. >> So, I had the ritual and I just knew inherently how to stalk, how to follow. Why would I come out dressed in black for attention? Uh, you know, that's all attention. I was. Satan doesn't want that. He wants to be the He wants to be the slick guy that comes in and devour. He's seeking roaming around who he may devour. You think he's doing that openly? We if I had ever seen Satan. I mean, who's going to follow him? If I know what I knew now, I would never followed him. You know what I mean? So, that's all I knew inherently. But if he were to jump out at me and and scared the beebies out of me, you know what I mean? Or or the hell out of me, I would, you know, I I'd have switched real fast. So it was slickness. It's something that I learned to do in the Bible studies or in everything. Even in jail when I was in jail for almost a year, it's you got to be slick. You can't you can't come out guns ablazing, but they're going to come out. >> Yeah. >> And that's what I did. I, you know, it's probably a year worth of, uh, this mental readiness. It's like a warrior in training. And I was very patient, man. I'll sit there until the Lord told me to to kill him. I'll just sit there until this happens. And so, but you said that there did you ever find out like, hey, when when the security team there became kind of aware of you or at least because obviously they didn't know your intentions. They just knew that your behavior was consistent with somebody that was like casing. Well, I think my I truly think my daughter told on me. You know what I mean? I think she found notes or >> how would they know that? But why would they have before my knowledge if you talk to Chris Bill or anybody, they had >> they had posters of me above time clocks at all their campuses. I don't know when that happened. If you see this man, >> contact, you know, s security cops, whatever. So, how do they know? I don't know. To this day, I'm not quite sure how they know. But that day that that cop came, that sheriff came up to me. He knew. Are you Michael? Yeah. >> I forgot it. I forgot the gun that day. >> Coincidental? I don't think so. >> And so what do they do? They they >> took me back in the back room. Yeah. Back room. And uh Chris Sprdlin, who I just talked to the other day, he called me out of nowhere. Hadn't talked to him in 10 years. Uh they called me in a back room and you know uh head of security was there. What are you doing here? I go that time I didn't know cuz over a year of hearing that scripture I it diffused me. It absolutely I can I didn't know that until I was writing the book but in that time it softened my heart. You know what I mean? >> I didn't want that message particularly but I didn't want this message either. So that was the worst part of my life by the way being tossed and James talked about about it see ship tossed at sea you know riddled a ship and I think the worst part of my journey was in that period of not serving either one you know what I got to do here but at that point uh that was probably the roughest time of my life trying to get out of it because then I knew I was in a trap. Now, the the interesting move seemingly as long as I got my facts straight, um, and very commendable for the staff there, security team, everybody is that, you know, that discussion with Sprdlin and the head security, the different people was not, okay, this is your last time ever visiting here. If we ever see you again, we're going to arrest you, blah, blah, blah. That wasn't the reaction when it very well could have been. >> Oh, yeah. Well, tell you what, >> cuz it's private property. They can they can kick you out. >> I call it love. I think God gave love to Sprdlin and to Craig and uh certainly to to uh I couldn't I hated John because he was a cop, you hated cops >> and I think it was an act of love and I could see that I was reading everybody in the room, you know, because I'd get into reading and see some weaknesses here and there and and >> so you could exploit them later. >> Yeah. and and but all I I was diffused with that you you can't come back. They said not without notifying security first. We don't want you back. But we're going to tell you what, we're going to have a meeting tomorrow, Monday, to see what we need to do with you. Now, it wasn't conspiracy to commit murder or I'd still be in jail for that because I didn't plot it with somebody. >> Yeah. >> It was just me. And how they knew I was going to do that, I don't know. I never really told them that. Uh, so when it I think it was the act of love, love never fails. And I saw it, you know, you can see it on them and I'm going, "What is that?" You know, I mean, I didn't know. And uh, they said, "Well, we you need to here's what we'll get you counseling. We'll pay for it if you need it." Cuz by that time, I'd lost my business and everything and I was broke. I mean, I lost everything >> and cuz I was going to die. So, I gave most everything away and u what I need it for. life is fruitless. And uh uh walked out. They let me go and said, "We're going to we'll call you tomorrow." I thought, "Sure, they will. They're not going to call." And Brad called uh the next day and uh right on time. He said, "I'll call you in the morning." And he called and he says, "Hey, you know, we'll get you help. You know, we've all talked about it and uh we'll get you psychological if you need it. You need it. we'll get you uh spiritual help. Uh we think you should join him. We're going to have a guy called Darius Mcllori call you. He's with a group called Damascus. I went, "Oh [inaudible]." You know what I mean? Don't want any part of it. You know what I mean? Isn't that biblical with Paul? You know what I mean? I didn't want to be associated with Paul or anybody like that or even have a story called I'm not like Paul. But at any rate, uh I said, "Well, I don't think you have to worry. I'm never coming back." But then I slowly started coming back uh I don't remember the month believe it or not because I lost so much of my memory in there but I went back for three or four months and uh and I thought I don't get this this Christ you know I saw it I I couldn't find I knocked the door wouldn't open I knew scripture because I memorized it most of it in jail new testament to use against Christians when I got out but I did all this tough and I I have no feeling at all for this god, this Christ they talk about. So this entity came back to me again. Uh I won't mention his name is it's a demon, but uh I said, "Hey, you couldn't do this. Your time's up. We're done with you and you're done with yourself. You you'd be much more happy being away from this world." And I thought, "Yeah, you're right." So I had plotted to kill myself on uh it was on a it was on a Sunday. It was going to be on a Sunday. Uh, and you know, I've been saved now for 18 years. Uh, January 12th of08, but on that was on a Saturday, I believe, but on the Sunday, that's the day of my death. And and uh before I went, I ended up going to a retreat for Damascus. I didn't want to go, but ended up going to a retreat that week. and they all, you know, it's one of the obligations. We're not going to do anything, but you got to go to this retreat. And I already planned, I already had a time that on Sunday, I was going to go home and kill myself. You know, gun, that's a little messy. I don't want my daughter, she lives just walking distance from my house. It was kind of messy. I didn't want her to see me like that. So, I had had a gun. So, I thought I'm just going to hang myself. And so I already that Friday night before people called me to go to the retreat, I was I had a rope out and I was dropping it from a putting weight on it, dropping it from my second story balcony. And you know, I already planned out this is going to happen. Wasn't sad or anything. Just I'm done. I wanted this my whole life, you know, so uh uh that didn't happen. You know, that gets into my salvation, you know, time of my salvation. But >> so why didn't it happen? Why didn't you have the nerve? >> Well, dare I I had the nerve. It's just I didn't have the the the time was on Sunday. It wasn't today, wasn't Friday the 6th. And uh which is shows how shallow Satan was is here comes a day that I'm going to receive the Lord. I didn't know it. He didn't know it. Yet the day after, you know, on Sunday, I was going to kill myself. See, so he may have inklings. He's the best evil shrink in the that ever was. I mean, reading us and all that, but as far as our mind, I think he can tell by our actions. But at any rate, that Friday, Darius called and I'm I'm uh and then my girlfriend called. We were separated by that time. I was living in one of the houses that or one of the condos that she had and uh they called hey the retreat you coming? I go I don't even like you guys. No, I'm not going. I'm going to kill myself. So what? I don't have to fulfill that obligation. And uh then something you know came over me. I got enough phone calls. Hey, just come. Just just come. You'll be all right. So I ended up uh going to that retreat. Hated Friday night. I hated those guys. They want to hug you and hey, bro. and just you know what? >> Yeah, >> you can knock me out. You can shoot me, but don't touch me. Yeah, I don't care what you do. So, Friday it was horrible. And then Saturday came along and I had a my last suicide note was to my son that I had to write. So, I went up in a t-shirt. I had to be 30° outside. They were all busy playing games on some field. I didn't want to go. I mean, this is perfect. You leave me by myself. You know what I mean? So, I started uh writing uh notes, you know, and then that's when it lasted for about 3 hours. And then that's when I said, "Okay, you son of a you know what, God, I'm going to talk to you for the last time. You know, this is you, the good side. I want to talk to you." And I started actually wrote this stuff out and uh started saying, "Hey, why? You weren't there when I drowned when I was six years old. Got drowned. you weren't there when this happened and that happened and uh you know just all that stuff and actually was writing instead of the suicide note I was writing all this stuff down and I just heard stop it stop it stop it loud I mean it was verbal and I'm going wow you know and I was seeing at that time I was you know these black figures if you ever saw the movie Ghost it was just like that >> yep >> at the end where they take that guy away >> yeah black figures and And then there was white figures and it was like a war was going on which ironically was seen by somebody else. The god called away from the field that they were playing quarter mile away and said go sit there but don't don't touch that man. Just watch. And he saw the turbulence of the trees. I mean I saw all this. I know it was real. And then stop it. Stop it. Stop it. And then that's when the Lord started talking to me. You know it was so neat. It was so peaceful. You know what I mean? Not saying it was verbal. I think it was, but maybe it was just internal. It doesn't matter what it was. But he started talking to me and uh I thought, well, this is neat. This I've never had this feeling, you know? This is like cool. No manipulation, no control, just straight uh something that I didn't experience before. Love. I didn't know what love was. People, I can't know what that love is. True love is. And uh you know the writing changed. I was actually writing this out like I was transcribing it. And uh you know a lot of things happened. I picked up an angel once you know that I didn't know was an angel. I was screwing with him on going to I40 down to I was passing out satanic Bibles somewhere back east and picked them up. He was he had Bibles too. Mine Mine were satanic. His was holy Bibles. But he said memorize Psalm 91. put it in your heart and I go, "Yeah, I'll get right on that." He knew I was satanic, you mean? But on that heel, I wrote out Psalm 91. Never read it before. So the Lord just gave it to me. So I'm going go, "Okay, now that was cool. I would have never done that. I never got into the Old Testament. I just got in the New Testament to use against Christians, you know, when I got in the New Testament." And uh sat there, wrote that out. Where's my friend Bob? Because he had just died of cancer. an old man that not old, younger than I am now, but he loved me. He was the head shrink from the department corrections in Oklahoma, but we've become friends to, you know, even though he's a Christian, he didn't bother me. He just didn't pursue it like that. You know what I mean? And he had just died. And I goes, we're the first thing I asked, "Where's Bob?" He's with me. He's fine. He's warm. He's secure. He's good. Let's talk about you. you know, and so this whole >> I don't know how many pages, maybe three or four pages of stuff I wrote that I would have never written before. It wouldn't didn't even sound like me, you know what I mean? >> And uh and that's I want this. That's what I want. Okay, you have it. You know what I mean? And uh that was the hill experience I talk about in my book. And it was so I can't even tell you. It was like uh so much weight off my shoulders. You know, just that very moment I'm going this is too good. But one thing I don't want to do this. I don't want to ever be lukewarm. And it was a giggle. Son, you never been lukewarm. Now I feel like I have since then a few times, you know, just kind of faltered. been lukewarm. But uh but here all these guys were afraid of me pretty much at that retreat and you know because they knew who I was by that time and I'm walking around the corner and had a smile for the first time saying hey I got a story. Anybody want to hear it? They're going depends depends. >> Yeah. >> What kind of story? And then uh uh we went through maybe uh three or four hours of deliverance and I let's go to this cabin and I don't remember any of it. I couldn't say Jesus somebody asked me could I say Jesus is the Lord and I couldn't. I just couldn't do it. You know what I mean? Wait, I didn't know this until I wrote the book either. But on the hill, man, this is all I want. But there's no way I could have confessed that at that moment. It was too much demonic going on. You know what I mean? So after about three or four hours of what have we did and they all thought it that's the weirdest thing I've ever been through you know and I said Jesus Lord and man it just all flew off of me you know what I mean was the was something you never forget you never want to forget >> when you say Michael that it it flew off of you I remember speaking to Chris Beal and we talked about this at lunch that there was a time this would have been before the Hill experience I believe where he and some other pas pastors from Life Church came to where you were staying >> and I remember Chris Beal and you know Chris I haven't talked to him in a long time but he never struck me as a fantastical storyteller. >> So I say fantastical you know where people like the story is pretty good but they add a bunch of crap that didn't happen to me really good. He's not that kind of person. He just kind of he describes the story he he tries to do it justice and then move on. And I remember him talking to me and he's like, "Kyle, I've never I don't recall ever feeling oppression before, but when I walked across the threshold into Michael's house, >> I felt like there was weight sitting on every square inch of my body." Yeah. Right. And it wasn't until after they left where all the pastors had experienced the same thing, but none of them knew that the other one was experiencing it until later on they convened and they're like, "Wait, you felt that, too?" >> kind of a thing. And so I'm just curious for you. Is that like were you feeling that same kind of pressure when you were really under Satan's spell or was this like no it was just a it was just like a fish in water. It was just like the environment that you were built to survive in and it was only people that were outside of that could >> you know could feel that kind of oppression. >> Yeah. No, it was normal for me. I didn't feel I if I didn't obey, let's say I didn't do something that was required of me, I would feel it or I'd lose total breath in my sleep. I'd wake up with no breath in me >> and the heaviness on the chest, my stomach would collapse. Something was sitting on me. I mean, something you couldn't see. >> So, can I actually stop you there because this this this has come up recently >> and I was trying to help someone and trying to counsel and I was just kind of flumxed by it. a really good friend of mine, also not a fantastical type of person. Years ago, he was describing how he would wake up in the middle of the night and it was like somebody was holding him down by his chest, could not get up. >> There's a clinical name for this. I don't know what it is, but it doesn't matter. >> And then I have a friend right now who this is happening with his daughter, right? His teenage daughter >> where she is waking up freaking out in the middle of the night because she can't move. because you know people are like oh well that's just temporary paralysis brought on by low potassium or you know whatever their thing is but the reality is is that they are being forced down and then you have people that are either like I don't want to acknowledge that this is spiritual that's a little bit too weird let's see if we can get them on some pills or something um and then you have other people that are like wait a minute this is this is demonic oppression so like from your experience is that a common tactic uh of attack for dark forces demonic forces on people whether believers or not. >> Right. It is. >> And so what so what is it like? Why why would it be I'm waking up and I can't. >> They're they're entities. They're they're spiritual beings that somehow have crossed over into the natural, you know? They're here. You know what I mean? Lord talks about them. And what gets your attention more than losing your breath and you can't breathe or this heaviness. >> It's all you can think about. >> Yeah. It's all you can think about. >> I even had it sometimes where I'd urinate on myself. It was that I was right next to death. I mean, I could tell. No breath in me. None at all. And it's like the Lord speaks to us in our sleep. Well, so does Satan. We're the most vulnerable. Yeah. >> In fact, most satanic rituals are between 3:15 and 5:30 in the morning during your rim sleep. So, they're fervent prayer warriors, by the way. The dark side. They don't play around. I mean, they're just all in. Fervent prayer warriors. And about that's the time of morning they think it affects you the most spiritually. You're we we believed or I believed or they believe that's the most susceptible you are because you're asleep. And ironically, God speaks to us during that time too. You know, he's he's over us and he's watching over us. He's if he can't get our attention in the daytime, he'll get it at night in a dream or a vision or whatever. So, it's very much uh a bib biblical thing. I mean, in your sleep, you're vulnerable, and that's oppression. However you want to put it, I believe they're entities that they sure get your attention. So, you got to wonder what why are they allowed into our lives. Uh, you got the wrong book in your house. No, it could, you know, there's something there that maybe it's nothing you've done. Maybe it's just an opening that maybe the Lord allows stuff to happen. And it sounds almost cruel, but it allows stuff to happen to really wake your rear up. You know what I mean? >> Well, I want to so I want to get back into the the story getting back to the hill. But I do want to go down this rabbit trail just a little bit because you know I became a Christian at the age of 15, but I didn't have like I never went to vacation Bible school. Like I didn't know Bible stories. Like I'm trying to catch up even as an adult as my kids are in that kind of thing. And I've heard different arguments from different pastors, sermons, books, whatever, where it's just like if you are under oppression, because a Christian cannot be possessed because they are possessed by the lamb of God, right? They're possessed by God. But you can be oppressed and oppression comes because you've opened a portal. And so and then the examples like what we talked about a bunch of examples of portals is well you listen to satanic music or you had the wrong book on your shelf or you did a yoga routine in your living room or whatever. Even if the posture of your heart in listening to that song is I really like the beat. I don't even pay attention to lyrics. Or my hips and low back have really been giving me problems so I just did this, you know, 25minute thing to try to open it all up. You didn't do the ohms. You didn't hook your ponytail to a tree. You didn't face the east. You didn't do any of the the pagan stuff that's that's with it. But then I'm just guaranteed by these these pastors that no, you open a portal and here's the ritual you got to do to close that portal and we got to get you some oil and we got to, you know, deliver the house and we got to deliver your bed sheets. Like, you know, all those types of things. I struggle with what to tell people that are experiencing what seems to clearly be some sort of a spiritual demonic oppression in terms of like how do we guard against that? And I again I just don't think it's as simple as you did yoga once. >> Yeah. you know. >> Yeah. I I don't think that I call it Christian witchcraft. We talked about a lunch. >> Now we have to get is it once saved or always saved or not. >> So is it a Christian can't be possessed? I believe they can. Now the reason I believe that what is possession? It's semantics, right? The word what's what's directing your life? You call yourself a Christian yet your whole life is directed a certain way that's uncchristian-like, right? So, what's what's directing you? Is it the Lord? It certainly isn't, right? Is he commanding your life and you really love him and you're really serving him? Doesn't look like it. Now, I'm not saying that's a salvation issue per se because personally, I believe you can lose salvation. I I I believe that. But in this book thing and in this stuff that can control you, uh I call it Christian witchcraft. Now there's, you know, like we said, there's different, you know, if that's what you believe in, then believe in. If that's what trips trigger and keeps you closer to God, then that's okay. Not me. >> I I don't think it controls me. >> Like a guard royal. >> I still, like I said at lunch, I still carry a satanic Bible when I speak sometimes because there's only this Bible and that Bible. Nothing in between. You're either serving this or that. There's no in between. There's the lukewarm. He He'll throw you up out of his mouth. What worse thing can you can imagine? Now, does that mean that you're not saved? I don't know. That's up to God. Whether a Christian that partakes in all this stuff that's so ungodly, you know, are they really serving him or are they just being I don't even want to call it casual Christianity. I just want to call it uh I mean, Revelation calls it lukewarm. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh I'm not calling out their salvation over this. I believe that you can. I think that you know, where is it in Hebrews? You know, for him that once saw the light and walked away from it, it's nearly impossible to come back. I mean, there's so many different You put 12 theologians in a room and they're all going to come out with something different other than the very basics. So, it's like having six kids in a car where you want to eat. You're not going to get that. You're not going to get a straight answer. It's same thing I believe in the church. Now, do we discount everything? No. We take it in. We give it to God. We take what's good and the rest of it we ask God to show us. You know, I mean, that's it. But uh in what we were talking about as far as things like that, I don't believe that uh you know, I've had somebody come against me for for still having a satanic Bible, but it doesn't have any power over me anymore. You know what I mean? To me, that shows power to be able to use it as a prop, >> right? >> And I've had a couple pastors well known, you'd know them, say, "Hey, just keep on doing what you're doing." You know what I mean? Because what more? And they'll gasp like we talked. >> Yeah. >> They'll what what happened? You brought this into a holy place. the place isn't holy. You know, you can't keep demons out of a church. People bring them in. You know what I mean? And who cares? Why pay attention to them? You better be focusing on the Lord. He's the one that directs your path, not Satan. You know what I mean? So, I guess what I'm trying to say is all this, you fall in the Lord, you're studying, you're going to you're speaking in tongues, whatever you do, and that doesn't help you with a book that's on your shelf. My God, what are we going to be afraid of next? Your tats, that's not against that's not nothing biblical. It's a specific tat that was not biblical. >> What's next? You just got a dog from the pound and now you got to take him back because he's he's he's a demon. >> Well, that's the the story. >> Is that not fear? >> Yeah. I mean, in the story, we're not given a spirit of fear. >> What a power, love, and a sound mind. >> And and with that in mind, I remember it was just a pastor clip that I saw, but this guy was talking and he pulls out this old looking I told you this at lunch, but I'll tell for the audience. He pulls out this book that was kind of old, tatterthered, kind of leatherbound book and he says, "You know, I was I was drawn to this bookstore and you know, I went in there and I found this book and it's a book of spells um and occultic practices and you know, how to how to perform, you know, these different rituals and things like that." And he says, and I'm just going to open it just to kind of read to kind of give you all an idea what's in here. And you could like hear a gasp. Yeah. >> In the crowd >> like we we got to stop him. Like we we got to charge the stage. We got we got to get him and that book out of here. >> Crucify him. >> Yeah. Like essentially. >> And then the guy senses and he got the exact reaction he wanted. And he closes the book and he goes, "Guys, by the way, this is a copy of Hamlet." >> Yeah. >> Right. Or it was some some Shakespearean play. And he goes, "All of a lot of you in here got really, really nervous that I was about to read from a book of spells, a witchcraft book or something like that because you think it has power." And then he picks up his Bible and says, "And yet you won't read this because you give it no credence in your life and you think it has no power to communicate what God wants to communicate >> to humanity." >> And it doesn't. The word of God doesn't have a power. And and so that's the thing that I think most people fall into to where it's like, wait a minute, how much power are we giving to something and it's we're giving into the spirit of fear and we're not taking up the spirit of an overcomer. Right. >> Right. It's like uh I I teach truth doesn't set you free. It doesn't. We know not to eat donuts and we eat them. They get us fat. Right. We know the circumstances of we do this, this is what's going to happen. Yeah. We do it, right? >> Truth doesn't set you free. It's the walking in truth that sets you free. That's powerful. Think about that. It's not the truth that sets you free because demons know who the who God is. They shudder. >> You know, uh another thing, you know, Satan, there's no truth in him. So, my theory is how's can he know the ends near? A lot of pastors, oh, he knows the ends near. He's trying to get as many souls as. How's he know that when he's the father of lies? >> Yeah. >> The chief provericator, if you will, and there's no truth in him. Now toy with this one. So this is stuff I've toyed with ever since I became a Christian, you know, and I don't dwell on it too much cuz I trust the Lord. He'll he's given me the answers. But the truth, you know, I walked in a church once and I said, uh, assemble God in Chicago. The first thing I said, pastor said, "Hit him hard, will you?" I go, "Yeah." And so here's an ex Satanist up there. And I said, "You know, you're more powerful than God." >> I mean, the same thing as that guy with the Bible, right? and they're ready to burn me at the stake. And I said, ' Because your choices trump God's will in your life. That's pretty powerful. He's not going to override your choices. And uh because it's not his choice anyone should perish, but have everlasting life. Yet, he tells us how many people perish. So, your choice, you know, I mean, it's pretty powerful. So, that's what I was leaning into in that sermon I was giving us. And it's little. This stuff isn't it's profound, but it's not talked about much. >> No. >> You know, so when I go, you know, that's I just talk like you and I are talking right now. >> And it's little things that the Lord gives me. And and you can't discount that. How's the truth going to set you free if you're not following the truth? >> You know, I mean, so that's that road we're going down with books and my gosh, you got a picture there and it looks like an old guy and I know he's putting on spell whatever. Where'd that hat come from that you have hanging over there? Wait, it was made in Mexico and they're into this and Christian witchcraft. Stop thinking like that. You know what I mean? If God leads you to get something out of your life, then get it out of your life. Sure, >> the Holy Spirit does. But >> and it may be different for you than it will be for your neighbor. >> It would be because there's things that I would be uh more that I don't venture into because of previous weaknesses. Now I've been healed, but I've heard Craig say, "Don't cross that threshold." Like that threshold that was in my house was so evident, so heavy uh that all the guys felt it. Why do they feel it? Because they knew who the Lord was. They knew they knew uh so much about God that when they crossed they knew now they know what evil feels like. Maybe the palpable, you know, they they could feel it, sense it, and it was real. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was like I mean >> cuz they never experienced something evil like that before. >> Well, they were they were sensitive to even being able to feel it. You and I talked at lunch about how just aloof people are walking around. Like I've seen videos of people that are in the process of being robbed, >> right? >> But they're so in their phone they don't even realize that a gun is pointed at their face, right? And then they oh they wake up to their circumstances and of course panic and then you know the the violence or the the criminality you know goes from there. But we go from the house where these pastors can feel the oppression because they're sensitive to the moves of the spirit and the the struggle between God and Satan uh for for you as it were. And then how long is it from that time period to the experience you had on the hill, the three or four hours, you know, working with those guys in the cabin where you could go from I can't say Christ is Lord to you can I mean >> four months maybe. >> Yeah. So we're talking about a span of months. But let's go back to the cabin, >> okay? >> You have this literal hilltop experience, right? Where you're by yourself in terms of the world, but that God was there with you and you have this tremendous move. And yet, as you've already said a little while earlier in this conversation, when you were put to the the task of can you say Christ is Lord, the answer was no. And so what was that? Was that >> control over my body? >> Okay. and over my thoughts uh I would stutter >> like it couldn't come out >> like it just you weren't there >> that when I was writing that book and I haven't cried probably since I was 6 years old I can't remember crying so still you know I mean is it a defect I don't know it's something that I don't know you know am I still got a lot of sanctific oh of course I'm not perfect I'm not some genius and I'm I'm Paul or whatever. No, I mean, I got, you know, I've got a lot to learn. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. And there's things in me that are still there, you know, as far as experiences that I can't explain. Or uh the crying, I don't know what that means. You know what I mean? I I mean, I see people crying and I think, you know, that'd be kind of cool. Maybe. I mean, and even speaking in tongues, I've had people try to force me to speak in tongues. That's never happened. Well, you're not saved until you do it. and evidence of, you know, I just want to say, "Hey, you know what? You just go whatever." >> Yeah. >> But I'm not like that. I'm I'm gentle with them and and kind to them and and uh in my mind, I'm going, "God, just help them because that's not the truth." You know what I mean? Uh if it's the truth, give it to me. You know what I mean? So, people say, "We don't have that gift." I had a good pastor friend of mine that I got spent a few years with before he died, right after I got saved. And he says, "Dude, with with the gifts God's given you, don't worry about that one." You know what I mean? That's the least. Even Paul says, "That's the least." You know, uh the prophetic, if you call it prophetic or whatever it is that I can see stuff, God speaks to me. And doesn't mean I'm special. No. Just means I can hear for some reason. I think we all have whatever gifts the Holy Spirit wants to give it to us at that moment to use whenever we need it. You know what I mean? But uh that moment you said right what happened uh well you know my truck wouldn't start. I got to the I mean it sounds made up all this but so many witnesses. So I'm on the hill. First thing I do is go to my truck and it starts. That's choice number one. And I stayed. So I you know I wanted to leave so badly until I had that heal experience. >> Right. >> Then I went the truck thinking >> you can get out. >> That's a great truck man. Ford, not a Chevy. A for a Chevy Ford, but just started right up and I'm going, "Okay, that was a good one." You know what I mean? I acknowledge God now. I couldn't say Jesus was Lord. I didn't know it until I wrote the book. And then so we go in a cabin, I leave that hill and man, I wanted this God. I thought that was I gave my heart to him. You know what I mean? Which I did, but I hadn't confessed it yet. And so that I know that scripture is so meaningful. I know it cuz that that was my choice moment. Everything in my life led up to this moment. The the most important moment in my life was, you know, 1208. You know, I forget about April 16, 1956 on my birthday. I mean, my birthday was that day. So, we go to the cabin and uh I don't know what happened. I mean, there was a lot of profanity. Uh if I could have ripped my skin off or cut myself, if there was a knife around, I would have been cutting myself because I was that much possessed, you know. Was the Lord coming to me? Yes. But until I there was a moment I can't tell you what happened. There was five guys. I can give you their names. They saw what happened. It was nothing they ever experienced before, you know, not that I know of. one guy living in Ernie Flowers. He was from Tennessee and he was at this men's group and Brett Anderson. I don't I don't know if you know him or not, but a lot of guys and uh after that happened, man, it was just like I I can hear you now. What' you say? Because before your lips would be moving, your lips would be moving as a Christian and nothing came out. There was times when I would watch somebody and I thought they were playing with me. And I think in that moment, you know, of I needed deliverance, it was a not only psychological help, which we should get to, by the way. >> Yep. >> Psychological help, but also uh um just a mental aptitude to be able to make that choice, you know, just a spiritual aptitude. I didn't have it. So, that thing on the hill was really cool. It's the best thing I ever had in my life. But when it came to practicality and these guys saying, "Who who's your God? couldn't do it. And I didn't realize it until I wrote the book a couple years later. >> And yet you do go in that experience in that timeline from >> several hours. >> Yeah. Not being able to confess >> Jesus as your Lord and Savior. >> I blacked out, >> right? >> Like I told you, I had blackouts my whole life, right? >> Moments I just don't remember for hours. >> And uh and that happened. And when I came to these guys were like, "Holy hell, what just happened?" We just experienced something that was crazy. >> Frank Stace, he was there and uh uh me and I'm not saying baptism is a uh sign of salvation. I think it's a sign of of your heart of changing heart. So immediately I said I got to be baptized. I felt that not for salvation and there was a pond outside and I said there's a pond and they go man dude it's like 20 degrees let's go to the bathtub and uh so immediately as I could hear I hear their voices I could see their I'd look them in the eyes instead of manipulation and control that you know I just there's a sweetness about them that I wouldn't accept before you I could see love and uh which I couldn't see before I couldn't see love and I went to the bathtub And you know it was it was strange. It was different. You know here I'm at 200 at that time probably 250. You know I'd lost 50 lbs after my no 60 after my salvation. Got in shape and blew in the bathtub. And what's interesting, I I was drowned when I was six by somebody, either my mother or grandmother at the ocean. And but so they put me in and and laid me down underwater and baptize your name, father, son, holy spirit, you know, that kind of thing. I came I, you know, underwater they said I looked afraid. And at that moment, I saw this person drowning me and it scared me. And then when I came out, it's hard to talk about, but when I came out, uh, I just heard I saw the Lord's face. He said, I saved you then, I'm saving you now. I was like, this is so cool. You know what I mean? Here I'm fat sitting in a tub. You know, and go under, come out, and just this peace came over me. And uh ever since, you know, just like I had this calling to tell as many people about this story as possible, the the truest version I know of because when you're going through all that mentally and everything, what you know, it it seems so fake. It seems so, like you said, exaggerated or or embellished or >> uh but then there's so many witnesses even after salvation to weird stuff that's happened, you know, the demonic. And >> did do they leave you alone? No, they don't leave you alone. They're they're all part of this thing. You know what I mean? Um so I mean so much has happened since then that would scare most people to to death. You know what I mean? And I'm looking at it going whatever. But even in those early days, so you go from literally being a servant. Well, you were like child's play, servant of Satan to legit kind of pro at it. >> Let's go all the way. Yeah. >> To Christ follower. >> Yeah. I mean, what did the what did the first few days, months, years of being a Christ follower after 20 years of serving Satan even look like? Well, interesting enough, we're outside of Guthrie on 105, I think it was, highway at a men's retreat at a Christian place and and I'm headed back. It's on a Sunday. I'm never to go to church, step foot on Life Church unless I contact him first and I didn't, but I'm sure the guys did. And we're going to go to the service. And uh for the first time ever in that service, I never raised my hand. I mean, worship was worship, you know what I mean? And I think Craig had tears in his eyes and people in the front row when they saw me, I shouldn't be there. I'm in the front row. They didn't know what happened. I guess maybe they called him ahead of time. But before then, I'm headed to uh going down the highway and I man, I felt in my spirit just stop at this uh old folks home in Guthrie, you know what I mean? And I thought, why? My mom was in there. I hadn't seen her in eight years. I mean, she dementia and she was in there. And uh I went in there and told the nurse, you know, hey, I want to see who are you? And I said, I'm her son, Michael. We we don't have any record, you know, I mean, but I go, "No, here's my license." And I went and talked to her and I told her what just happened. And I forgave her. I said, "I forgave." And you know, she had a little tear in her eye. I said, "Man, I met this dude, Jesus, and I can't even tell you how I feel right now. I mean I'm no burden you know just everything's off my shoulder shoulders and uh you know talked to her and she died I never went back I didn't go to her funeral she died 42 days later you know it was that kind of relationship with my siblings and her and I you know I just felt called not to go to that funeral I mean I was better stay away not cause any drama and they thought I was nuts anyway in the family and uh but I had my moment with her on the way to church on that same road 105 in Guthrie off of I35 and she's at country estates or some I don't remember what the name of it is but she'd been there for a long time. I hadn't seen her in probably 8 years. >> 42 day days later she dies and uh but anyway we went to church and it was just totally different from that time on. I could see and smell better. I couldn't smell before by the way. Couldn't really taste smell. Everything over time had been stymied. uh memory. Um the blackouts happen all the time. Uh I couldn't really smell too people smell stuff. I want to smell it, >> you know. Uh >> so but even earlier in your Satanism, you said you kind of had a heightened sense of that. >> Heightened >> and then you were going down just like any addiction like that first hit is insane and then you keep chasing it. >> Yeah. And you're chasing it want more and wondering why you know you I lost my business, lost my homes. Uh uh what what the hell happened here? You know what I mean? To my to everything. I had a good business door business. I was making fabulous money, but I was buying I was gambling and spending money on I bought more satanic Bibles than probably anybody in the nation, passing them out for fun, Baptist churches and stuff across the nation. Thought that was my fun. I mean, and laughing about it. And uh you know but after a while all that senses got dulled and I looked back and it was the Lord trying to get my attention to what the real senses should be you know and spiritual awareness cuz I even lost the spiritual awareness you know I mean stuff I couldn't sense I couldn't see if I couldn't if I could have seen what was going to happen to that men's retreat I wouldn't have gone yeah not being on the dark side so that stuff was taken away from me just long enough and then God opened the door up again to, you know, all the stuff just started coming back to me. His smells, uh, tastes, everything was heightened. It was great. You know what I mean? Uh, I could hear him, you know, I knew who he know. Was it verbal? No, it was just I knew what I knew when I knew I knew. No getting around it. I knew who this God was. And he was good. He was great. This good isn't even that's such a bad God is good. Really, that's the best thing you can say about him. I know it's just a term, but he's fabulous. I mean, it's uh the best day of my life. Still is. You know what I mean? Now, is it rough in there? Am I, you know, stuff? Yeah. Um, as a Christian thing, well, the closer you get to God, the more you know, I don't think so. I want to be on the front lines. I don't want to be in the middle or the back of the the Christian uh if I'm going to fight, man. I don't even want if if if there's if there's what do you call it? Rapture, I don't want to go. I want to stay here and fight. I want to get equipped. And, you know, that's the way I look at it. >> Yeah. >> I want to I'm a fighter. I'd like to fight. You know what I mean? >> So the, you know, salvation is a gift from the Lord. You receive that and then now you're on your sanctification journey. And so >> that's tough. Circumcision of the heart. Forget the circumcision. Physical. >> Well, the thing about it is is I've seen any number of stories of salvation where you have the person that is violent, you know, womanizer, drug addicted, all those types of things get radically saved and in an instant. All that becomes part of their past. And then you have someone else who's violent, you know, sleeps around, drug addicted, gets radically saved. And that is the daily cross that they have to bear. Making a bunch of decisions >> to not go to the places they used to go, to not do the things they used to do, to not, you know, associate with the people they used to associate with. >> So I've seen the entire spectrum of that. Right. >> And so for you, was it like the switch was turned off and then it was just like pursuit of Christ or was it like, you know, how bumpy was it? I guess. >> Well, no, it was instantly beautiful. Nothing could Satan himself could have walked up to me and slapped me in the face and I'd go, "So, you could, that's the best you got." You know what I mean? Now, that lasted a couple years and I call it I was under God's umbrella protection. You know what I mean? until that started going away. Cuz now I got to experience the things everybody else does. It was like a couple years that I was bulletproof. I felt like nothing ever could stop this movement. >> And then a couple years later, all of a sudden, I started recognizing stuff that I used to do. Memories come back. Man, I don't want that thought, you know? I don't want this. I don't want that. That's when I think really the circumcision of the heart of the sanctification, not just justification, but the sanctification came in effect to where now, man, I got some work. There's a lot of work to do, you know what I mean? To to go through this process. And uh when that hit, I'm going I didn't feel betrayed. I just instinctively knew there something I got to go through. So that's when uh sins come into your life. Again, you don't, you know, may not be huge ones, but then you catch yourself and you got to repent, tell somebody about it, uh, confess to God. See, so you wouldn't have to do that if you didn't feel any of that. You know what I mean? So, I think there was a for me there was a couple year period I think special for me. I think it was a special time because how deep I'd been. I think other people maybe they wouldn't had have gone through that. maybe instantly like you said there's different ways people get saved, you know, as far as their walk and the sanctification and all that. Uh never did like church and still I suffer from not liking church because of community. I'm still a kind of a lonesome lonely guy, you know, not lonely but I'd rather be alone, you know what I mean? Uh so that the noise and the lights and the uh the music and stuff just kind of it's tough for me, you know, and and and that started come creeping back in. You're Life Church, hands up. It's so loud. It sounds like 14 different bands are in there. And man, it's all great. And the last couple and then the stuff started hitting me again of wait, this is tough for me. What do I do? And you have to walk your way through it with the Lord's help and learn that wait, just because you got saved doesn't mean it's not going to get tough. And it got tough. You know what I mean? Uh it's been 18 years now, you know? And then then a sin happens and you why did I do that? That's not me. That's not how I am. You know what I mean? But then you got to stand on scripture. You got to stand on what you know is the truth and walk in that truth. And God directs you. He looks at it and he goes, "Oh, just keep going." you know, if he's thrown it in the deepest part of the ocean, you know, of the sea and forgot about it, why should we? So, the sins, what's interesting, I got to a point where sinning, as long as it wasn't active disobedience, you know, then you got a problem. It was occasional sin or a slip up or whatever you want to call it because we don't fall in love and we don't fall in sin. They're choices. There's no fall in love. You choose love. But that stuff started happening and I would just, okay, you can forget about it. I can forget about it. I'm sorry. You know what I mean? I tell one of my good elder friends, I call them elders or brothers in Christ and keep on going. But why do I want to dwell on that when I know how harmful that is having been on the dark side? So kind of been on the dark side is really an advantage for me. >> I wouldn't want to do it again. >> But you recognize >> Oh my gosh. I mean there'sility in the fact that you experienced a lot of >> Oh my gosh, it was wonderful in a sense because uh with the mind of being given, we've all have a different aptitude or a different uh uh thing that God uses us for. You know, I can sort out things pretty simply. It just makes sense to me. I don't have to am I going to have big questions for God getting No, I don't care. Like you and I talked about, I don't care about esquetology or the past so much. I care about today. And it keeps it simple to where I can be free and not burdened with tomorrow or burdened with yesterday and the past sins or the past history of the church. I'm not in the history. So some people are. That's fine. I need to I need to stay put with today because in his presence is liberty and freedom and I want to be in his presence. Now I slip all the time. But so did David. I think did we you and I talk about that day or no? We had a pastor friend yesterday did >> uh but he's man after God's own heart. You know what I mean? But he repented. He knew how to repent. He knew how to stay connected. It's that connection. I don't want to fall off, you know, away from the vine. So I think today is the most important day we got. The only day we got we can't. We don't know if we're going to be here tomorrow. So that all the scripture points to today to me and not to tomorrow, not to yesterday. That takes a lot of burden out. >> Yep. if you're not fretting over tomorrow. And I I don't get anxious, but I've been married 11 years and my wife says, "You're just before I was a basket case." She goes, "You're just so steady." Which is a compliment. You're just uh no matter what happens with me, you're just you just calm. You wouldn't never see me this calm before. I was I was bouncing off walls, you know. I mean, and uh before I speak, it's weird because it's I get softer. >> Yep. you know, speaking and people have to really listen and it's not my nature. My nature is to be more even though I'm don't want to be there is to be loud. Before it was to be loud to probably scare people off as a defense mechanism or something, but not anymore. >> And so you have this radical conversion. You start your Christian life and at some point you make the decision, I got to write down what happened. Right. >> Right. And so that's um you know how you and I got connected. You know, you wrote Ascent from Darkness. >> It wasn't me. He made the decision. >> Yeah. >> So I get in a car wreck. >> Okay. >> Uh I'm going up I3 or the turnpike helping a friend. So I'm in a truck and I got a trailer with a Bobcat on the back and uh this car hits me. I'm probably doing 65 on the and a uh this guy was running from the cops. He was doing 120 and he hit the back of my uh trailer and hurt my shoulder. It threw my I was ironically talking to to John at Life Church head security. We're talking just chitchatting. Excuse me. And this I saw this guy and I'm looking in a mirror and this guy's coming fast. cops were behind him and uh I mean I swear that guy looked at me and just with this evil grin and and run his car right into the back of that trailer like he was trying to kill me or something. And uh car flipped over. I'm still doing probably 70 at that time. He pushed me broke the transmission, but I'm still going down the highway. Excuse me. And I'm dragging him going down the highway almost losing control of the truck and it hurt my shoulder. had to have shoulder surgery. Just the impact and pull over and the cops arrest him and and he goes, "I just he ended up in a deposition is headed to Chandler, Oklahoma to get drugs and he was already high." But he said, "I don't like that guy for some reason." You know what I mean? And uh so I was off of work and I said, "Lord, what you know, what do you want me to do? I got to work. I'm broke now. you know, how am I going to afford, you know, the little condo I was in or anything? And and I heard you're going to write a book. What what do I have to say? You know what I mean? I already I'd gone to grad school and stuff, but I never wanted to write. And uh and then it came to me to write my story out, you know what I mean? And uh so I sat at Panera Bread for 14 months and wrote that book. Bothered all the time by people that wanted ministry. I said, "God, I can't get this thing done." And all these people coming in. Even the managers at Panera said, "How do you set up your appointments? There's one after another." And I said, "I don't set anything." >> Yeah. >> Uh I'd go to the bathroom. I'd left my computer there and I'd come back and there'd be five $100 bills in it or there'd be a thousand in it >> or 20 or 50. There was always money coming in. Don't know who put it in there. You know what I mean? It was somebody and a manager. Then a young lady said, "Yeah, I saw this oriental guy, this ch this Asian man. He came in and put something on your computer and I called him away and he goes, "No, no, no. He'll like this." And that happened all the time to where I was supported. And but then I said, "God, I can't finish this book." You know what I mean? If I can't get to it, this ministry stuff's getting in the way. >> I didn't know better. You know, like a little kid writing a book. Uh, but it took about 14 months and there's a bunch of old ladies in there that were in a book club and oh, what are you doing? Write a book. Well, it's hard to get published. You know, uh, I don't just discouragement, you know. I'm going, well, I didn't say it was going to be published. The Lord told me to write it. I'm going to write it. And so, I'm writing these stories out and and writing and I'd go to different coffee shops. I end up back in Panera. By the way, they end up giving me that chair I sat in for 14 months, the leather chair. M >> I came in one day and there's a bow in it and Jason Emillay is his name. He gave me that chair said you deserve it. You you I mean I sit there every day writing this book but I got into the book and writing it and uh all of a sudden it was uh on a Friday guy calls me. I don't know how he got my number but he was a vice president of Thomas Nelson Harper Collins and said hey I've been can you send me the rest of your book? I got a few chapters. I don't know how you got him. I go, "Well, it's not really ready." I He goes, "No, send them to me. Would you read like seven chapters?" And I go, "Well, you guys do Bibles." And Heaven is for Real. I mean, that was coming out about the time. >> Mine was originally going to be Hell is for Real. By the way, they were going to kind of combine the two, but >> uh he goes, "Just be quiet for a moment. I want you the rest of it. I cannot." He goes, "I can't put it down. I'm going away for the weekend at a cabin. Will you send me what you have? I go, "Okay." And then they called Monday morning and and said, "Hey." He called Monday morning. Hey, we want to partner with you. We're going to fly down there. I go, "Why would you fly a couple people down here? Wouldn't it be better resources of God's money if I came there? If you'll pay the gas, I'll drive up there. That seems a lot more simple to me." So, I drove up there and we basically had church for a couple hours in his office and it was I went there. I mean, it was so wonderful. I mean, God, you know, didn't show up. God's everywhere. I hate that when say, "Oh, God showed up." >> Well, no, you showed up for him. He's everywhere. And we had we had church in his office for an hour and I signed a contract and that's how the book came pass. that it's not a bestseller or anything, but I think it's touched a lot of lives. >> Well, that's what I actually wanted to ask you about because with it coming out so long ago, and that's the thing with books and I tell the people all the time because I talk to people that are maybe they're speakers or they have written books or they're podcasters or whatever and they'll always you get obsessed with the numbers because how many downloads and you know how many purchases and you know where did I hit in the rankings and all that kind of stuff and I'm like >> what about impact? Like think about the individual lives. That's why I love it when I get emails or DMs or people run into me in public and they tell me about something that we've talked about on the show or some guest that we had or the Daily Blade, my devotional podcast I do with Joby Martin like and then they talk about how life was this way and then you know started listening to you or I went through your Dominion coaching program and now my life's this way because that's impact. That's not numbers because I can quantify everything. I can look at downloads and and revenue and I can I can look at all those different things, but it's like what is the kingdom impact >> for the work that I've been tasked with doing, right? Because I'm over the X right now with the stuff that I'm doing. And so for you in the book, for Ascent from Darkness, I'm I'm even just wondering about individual like anecdotes about people that have maybe reached out to you or met you or something like that where they read the book and it had just a profound impact on their lives. uh China. I've I've had some missionaries from China, Canada, uh Israel, cuz I've done TV a lot of TV shows that's gone everywhere, you know, TV and radio appearances and that kind of stuff. And the book, man, I've had I don't know how many look at my wife. She I met her through my book, >> right? >> She'd Facebook messaged me and she ends up being my wife, you know, and and uh uh just the impact. I mean, it was a lot more initially when I was out speaking more and it will happen again, you know, with everything that's going on right now. There was a season that I've had to go back and work for a while, but that's coming to an end. And God showed me clearly I'll be out there again, you know, and uh I didn't care when those old ladies, I call them old ladies are my age in a Panera and it was discouraging, but I didn't take it as discouragement because I knew better. I knew where they're coming from because then that leads to pride. Oh, I've sold a million. You know, I didn't care about that. I just cared about one person at a time, you know. I didn't care how big the speaking engagements were or how many heard me. If there was two people in a household, my favorite is doing home home things. It's more intimate, you know, even though that is frightening to me in a little bit being that close to people. Uh you give me 20 30 people in the house, we can get something done now. You know what I mean? So, that's my favorite setting is uh home groups. I love them. I mean, it's something that I just I it it fills me, you know, it just encourages me and builds me up. But I didn't care about the numbers. I I knew right off the bat because if you care about the numbers, guess what road you're going down? I came from that road. >> I don't want that. I, you know, if God gets, you know, makes a movie and it becomes big, good. But glory to God. But not to me. I'm again I'm not anything special that we all shouldn't be. In other words, I I'm I'm not the I would say the chief sinner, but in my heart I am. Like Paul said when Paul first started his ministry, he was a sinner. By the time he at the end, he was the chief of all sinners cuz he recognized the fact, wait a second, even the little stuff, you know, we need to do, you know, inventory on ourselves and introspection to see where we're at, you know, you know, constantly. I think or regularly but I didn't care if that book even when I told those lady I don't care I don't know publishing I could care less about that he just said to write it if it just went to one person and the first person it went to was Craig Rashelle he read the transcripts you know and and he goes did you write that yeah he goes this is good you know what I mean and it was encouraging to me >> so I'm I'm curious about that as well because you go from like okay you're the Satanist that was sent to kill Craig to hey you're sending bring him a copy of your transcript because that now you're at minimum acquaintances but maybe even you would call yourself buddies. Like that's got to be a whirlwind for both the both of you, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. It was uh it was in a coffee shop that I saw him and and uh I gave him a copy of it and uh I guess he read it or at least scanned through it and then I asked him if he would sign it, which he did. He put, you know, he signed on the front of it and made a little quote on the front of it. But uh it's just a relationship him and I had for a little bit until I got married. I brought my wife back and we went to life church and it was just too big for us. So we were looked for another church. But at that moment uh it's really encouraging because uh I'd go into church early to avoid crowds. So when I went into life church where he was speaking and and there's a couple times one time he says uh uh couple times that he really touched me and it it just encouraged me. One I was just like this you know the front row and I was just praising God to be able to be free and I felt somebody put their arm around me and now church has gone on and we're it was Craig. He goes I just love you. I I what a story and you're welcome here for as long as you want to be here. Another time I was out and there's several people in there and you know mix the people that go there constantly and he goes uh how's my favorite pastor? That's what he said. And I I look behind me like who's he talking to? He goes, "No, I'm talking to you." He goes, "I'm I keep an eye on you." He goes, "You're doing well. Just keep it up." And just a couple times like that, we were never buddies. And uh I did apologize to him. I said, "Hey, >> I want to apologize for wanting to kill you." You know what I mean? And he laughed. He goes, "You don't have to you don't have to say that. I know. You know what I mean?" He just was so in check with God. And And again, their churches, you know, um they cast that net out and you you know, that's what they're called to do. And you some people put it down because they don't do enough discipling or whatever. Who cares? They're called to do what they do and they do it. You know what I mean? And he has a conviction for it. Is a church too big? What? Just shut up. That's what I would tell people. Stop talking about Catholics or Baptists or this or that. We're all one church. Let's just edify and build each other up. But having him just a couple times encouraged me and then and then putting a note in the book meant a lot to me. You know, it meant that uh he really uh respected me especially for crossing over and not killing him. >> Yeah. But he appreciated the fact that he didn't actually fall >> or kill anybody else, you know, kill myself. So he I think he saw the glory of God in all of it and he saw the uh uh he just saw what the Lord can do in just this one man's life. And I'm not the biggest story there ever was or the least or you know I mean a lot of people were abused a lot worse than I was as a kid or they had a lot worse life than I did. I'm not saying it was the worst ever. It wasn't. You know what I mean? And and there was some good times in there and I learned a lot in life. But it gave me a a broad view of so many things, you know. So I thank God for that because I got to see so much and uh but with Craig, it just meant a lot that he recognized that salvation. Yeah. you know, and from what I understand, he still talks about it from time to time in service, you know. >> Well, I want to um because that kind of takes us through to some of the stuff that you've been working on postcon conversion and things like that, but I do want to go back to the thing that you talked about the because we're in the therapeutic age, right? Because um you know, it's some astonishing percentage of Gen Z kids or whatever the generation's called after that that have self-identified mental disorders of some kind. And it's like you you walk in on the first day of school and everyone it's not just your name. It's like, and can you go ahead and give me the list of things that you think are wrong with you? Like, oh, I'm this, I'm this, I'm this. And, you know, there's there's a lot of uh demonic activity in that as well because, you know, you even get into the transgenderism stuff because like if Satan can convince you that you can switch genders or that there's a spectrum, >> there's no more definable fact maybe on the entire planet that God created other than the dmorphism of mamalian species, right, of male and female, those types of things, and how you don't get to switch. You are one, not the other. And so there's a whole lot there. But even recently, I've dug into some different things on the therapeutic side. You and I talked about the inagram at at lunch and, you know, how that's being used. And I see even like pastor, not pastors, but counselors that have some sort of Christian designation or maybe they went through some program so they could have Christian, you know, in one of the acronyms after their name. But it's almost as if they're holding the Bible in one hand and they're holding the DSM5 in the other and they're just waiting until the part of the meeting or the the counseling session to elevate one above the other. Um, and then you have people that are like, "Okay, it's it's only Bible where we're just going to ignore everything in the world of the therapeutic because that's the fleshly world. We're just going to go here." And so I struggle to know what the best uh the best outcome or the best path forward is with that. I mean, you brought it up as something that you want to make sure we hit before we wrapped up. >> It would, you know, it's like uh in the Christian church, you know, I call, you know, I think it's kind of funny in a way. I I don't mean it mean, but uh charismatics, I call them crazymatics at times. I love them. I'm in their churches. You know, I have a sense of humor, and I I think I have to have that. And then the other side you you know you got you know the other side that uh you know he said there'll be a day in fact today is the day that men will worship me both in spirit and truth and I take that as the word of God and and spirit I mean but there's got to be a balance in it and to mental illness with spiritual is there's a balance to it like anything you don't Yeah do anything but he uses man too to help you through that stuff and so yeah I was you know I didn't have the mind of Christ certainly So, and I could have I was diagnosed bipolar, you know, they thought I was autism when I was young and ADHD, whatever. That was before ADHD, you know what I mean? Everybody's got it today probably, I'm sure, from food or >> But that's all healable, >> you know, to me. That's all healable. Are you I think it's spiritual illness before mental illness. Now, can there be uh uh you know, what do you call it? Biological reasons. Yeah. But doesn't doesn't that go back to generations? See, instead of a generational curse, sometimes I think it's uh more of a environmental what you've been in. See, so uh generational curses or generational stuff certainly I think is valid, but more in that it's an environment. It's what you're learned. You know, I mean, is it bloodorn? Uh yeah, could be. But who's Christ's blood? See, my I didn't choose my family. So, my brothers and sisters are believers in Christ. That's who they are. That's even Jesus said that. So, it's not who I was born into that's family. It's really my my believers, my brothers and sisters in Christ that are believers. So, that bloodborne stuff, I can just say, "Wait a second, I got new blood now." You know what I mean? I don't have to accept all that stuff. And it takes a while. We might have to go through I did. I got diagnosed after I got saved with did, you know? dissociative identity disorder, which is multiple personality. I only had one, but that's common. It's not common. Only 1.2. It's very low percentage actually have it. It was a Christian lady uh counselor, psychologist at Life Church that spotted it. I had another marriage and didn't last long. I had my blackouts and she noticed them and first time anybody's ever noticed it. So I got out of ministry for a year and a half, went to counseling and discovered that's what I had. I got healed from it, but the DID is common on anybody that suffered abuse before the age of nine. You know, that kind of thing. It has, you know, severe abuse. It's a protective mechanism to save yourself, basically. So the blackouts were all those times that I wasn't who I am. You know what I mean? It was And then they integrate you. I went through several things and got integrated back. What's interesting is uh it's really helped me think, you know what I mean? Think straight. >> So, but that's over with now. Are there ongoing issues the rest of my life? Probably. And can God heal it? Yes. And he's in the process through sanctification. But we have to experience those times to be able to see those times. So, I'm convinced all of us have something that we're growing through the rest of our life in order to to truly grow in Christ. And that that was my thing. I was had did. It wasn't bipolar and it you know, who wouldn't be depressed during your whole life of that stuff? But I bet I've been I was so depressed my whole life. And since salvation, maybe in 18 years, I've been depressed uh a total of three or four days. I mean, if you took an hour here, an hour there of kind of but I recognize it. I say, "Wait a second. I'm not going there. I'm just happy today to have Christ." I mean, that's enough for me to not get into the depression. You know what I mean? >> And so, what would you say to folks that are >> there's so many things in what can't you get? >> Well, Michael, they they are Christians. They are honest to goodness believers. Their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life. And then they've got some sort of a mental issue and then they're listening to these opinions from people that are like, "Hey, this could all be solved with what's going on in the Bible. You don't need to go anything else." Then you have other people that are like, "Man, you know, pills are a common grace. Like, let's just take these, you know, deal with the side effects later." There's some opinions. >> I tell you what it is. Go for it. And today we want a quick fix, deliverance, or we want a pill to change us like that. What we don't want to walk through is the pain of circumcision of the heart. And that's powerful. See, we want something quick. And guess what? It's not always quick. It's that what I just talked about the stuff we have to go through so we can truly learn it, not just surface learn it. So give me a pill which is what how 50ome% of the United States is on some kind of a psychotic some kind of a pill you know a mental for mental illness can we all get you can get mental I can too we all can we can all slip but we want a quick fix how about deliverance just deliver me and guess what happens there's true deliverance but always there's that next fix we can't get enough of it because it's not substantial I'm not saying there can't be deliverance. But guess what happens after deliverance? We think everything's fine and it's not. Cuz we don't walk through the steps it takes to totally get free, which takes obedience. Learn of me for a meek and lowly a heart. Come to me and your pain is let me teach you. Satan's a quick fix always. Where the Lord's trying to teach us to, hey, learn of me. I'm the sure thing, but you got to stick with it. There's faith involved. You're going to go through things. I'm right here with you. I'll never leave or forsake you. But guess what? You have to learn this because he knows our human nature is. So we want something fast. With Satan, it's immediate gratification. You know that quick fix. Give me a pill. Give me this. Right? I'm not saying medicine can't help you, and it does. You might have a time you need that. I'm not saying get off of it. I'm just saying over time you got to recogn. They smoke pot to sleep because they can't sleep. Christians. Okay, that's what we got to get to. How come you can't sleep? Because Lord's going to give you peaceful sleep. He's going to give you I'm not saying there can't be anx anxiety at times, but what's he tell us about that? Be anxious for nothing. You know what I mean? If we follow his word, even though that we're having trouble following it, sooner or later there's going to be a breakthrough to where we don't have to suffer the way we do when we have to. Medicine doesn't help you. I mean, it can help for a season. And I'm not saying get off of it, but the sure fix is the word of God. That's >> it's almost like it's math the medicine can mask or elongate something. >> It take it can take, let me put it this way, the path can be shorter, I believe, depending on how fast you learn. >> You know what I mean? What God's trying to teach us. He doesn't want us to suffer and he didn't want us on that stuff. I don't think maybe there's a short minute. Certainly, we need surgery when we need surgery. Uh we might need some medical help if our our hor hormones are off or whatever. I'm not saying that there's not a need for it, but people start leaning more on that than on God. He's trying to draw us back. Hey, I'm going to help you with this thing. So, I think it's more the sanctification process with the circumcision of the heart, which is much worse than physical circumcision. You know, whenever you said that, I got a buddy Eddie Penny. He was um Navy Seal um SEAL team six, not a believer when he was in the SEAL teams and just a guy that has seen and done just some I mean lots of darkness. I mean, he posts a picture about once a year of it was time when he was in Seal Team 6, and this is when they were going out every single night on capture kill missions. Every single night >> where you get to the point, I think he's talked about this publicly, so I'm not, you know, violating any any uh understandings or whatever, but he had killed so many people with his M4 or whatever u you know, AR platform that he was using that he's like, "Okay, I'm going to start killing people with my pistol." And so now he's killing people with a sidearm. Well, he got bored with that. So then he's like, "I got to get close enough for a blade." And then he did that. >> That got boring. >> He was a breacher. And so he's like, "I wonder if I could take some guys out on a breach." >> Yeah. >> And so he set up a breach on this door. It was this big steel door or whatever. And you know, he didn't know this, but he breached the door, pushed the door off the hinges, and it went straight into a concrete block wall right behind, squished, you know, tuge and, you know, bam. And so he had gotten to the bottom of himself because he had been, you know, at first it's like, you want to serve my country and then it's like, okay, I want to kill as many bad guys as possible. Okay. And then it's, well, I want to kill him this way. I want to kill him this way. Okay, it's not fun anymore. And he was kind of spiraling. And a lot of guys in the spec ops community, so this would be, you know, SEALs, Delta, Marine Recon, you know, Green Base, whatever. A lot of these guys that have seen a lot of things, watch their buddies get blown up and die, like, you know, all these these horrible atrocities that they witness that they can't do anything about while they're at war, and then they'll go do things like these Iawasa journeys or these Ibagane, you know, trips where they, you know, they do these things and they have this tremendous thing that happens and all a sudden they're not drinking anymore and they're not doing this and they're not doing that. And I think at one point Eddie was considering doing some of that. But then he was like, I realized that if I did something like that and it fixed me, whatever that means, that I would have to give credit to the Ibeane, to the shaman, to whoever took me through this. >> Yeah. >> As opposed to this very long route that I'm on right now, sanctification of the Lord, >> teaching me things along this pathway. And it sucks and it's brutal. and I'm having to get face to face with some of the sins that I've committed and I'm having to ask for forgiveness from people. I'm having to forgive myself. I'm having to repent of some things, some agreements that I've made with Satan or whatever the thing is. And it's like, could I get him to a better place mentally where he's not, you know, doing some of these acting out behaviors? Yes. >> But he has chosen for his sanctification process to take the road less traveled by and to go that hard route. like this isn't he's not taking the oympic route to to weight loss or or spiritual strength or something like that. It's like no I mean it's it's going to take a lot of struggle. >> Yeah. It's uh it's it's not very comforting you know I mean although the comforter is with us but that's the route that we take that we know we know what you know and this is painful right I mean this is the process I'm in but actually the purest form of Satanism is narcissism and it's immediate gratification fulfill the flesh you know what I mean and I see it in the Christian community with like I said uh deliverance 90% of it doesn't work because the person thinks that's the end all right there and now they're delivered. Guess what? That the first time something comes up or or drugs. Uh you're no you're more free in jail than you're outside because you don't have the choices in jail usually that you have outside. So there's an old thing about you're in jail and you're pimping God to get out and you get out and guess what? You go right back to same old habits that we're he says we're like dogs returning to our vomit. Yeah. Or the one I like is we look in the mirror and we we walk away forgetting who we saw in that mirror. I mean, those are so important uh uh teachings that I don't want to be there, you know, and I have to remind myself. I I told you today, I'm going to go back and read my book. I'm headed to California tomorrow. I'm going to go back and reread it so that I don't forget it. You think, how could you forget that? Well, the enemy and world and and the world and and time and my my time and everything will take away that memory after a while. Well, you know, uh I need to remember exactly what I came out of, you know, not to I'm emotionally healed from it. It's not going to bring me take me back to certain emotions, I don't think, because I'm healed from it. But I can sure remember and go, "Oh, yeah. Wasn't that a great moment? I didn't ever saw I never saw it happening until afterwards I wrote the book. But if I go back and read it, I'm going, "Wow, is this even is this real? Did I make this?" No, there's too many witnesses. God put too many witnesses in the story to discount his That's why in a movie, I don't want a Christian movie. You know, the Lord said no. I mean, I heard it. I'm not preaching the choir. Although a good percentage of the church could stand to see this, good percentage wouldn't go because there's going to be curse words in it. There's going to be reality in it. How could I water down what happened to me and not water down the glory of God that took me out of that depth? Can't do it. So, this has to be real. That's been a problem that having anybody that uh to fund the movie is they want this either a a Friday the 13th movie or some Christian flick made, you know, by Angel Studios or those are good. I'm not saying they're not. But this story needs to be told in a in a manner that uh brings reality to the spiritual realm. And you can't do that by watering it down because then you water down how big God is to take somebody out of that. >> Yeah. So, you still got a lot of uh a lot of road left on your ministry life. You've obviously done a lot and helped a lot of people through your book and through your speaking. Uh but as we wrap up here, I mean that's that's pretty much all for me. If there's anything else you want to get off your chest, fire away. >> You're getting tired, aren't you? >> I'm not getting tired. No, I No, we've I The thing is you weave in and out of so many different subjects. >> There's so much you It's exhausting. uh even when I go to speak somewhere, it it's a lot of information quickly. And I tell people, the Lord started telling me to tell people that you're not even going to receive everything that was done here today in this podcast. Yeah. >> You're not going to receive it for a couple weeks. >> It's we will remember this podcast. People that look at it will remember it and they'll either take the information and they'll use it or they just discount it and throw it away. >> You know what I mean? You got to make a choice. That's with knowledge. You got to make a choice of whether to believe it. If you believe it, then what do you got to do in your own heart? How do you got to, you know what I mean? What are you going to do with this new information? Are you just going to discount it and say, "This guy's just a freak and mentally ill." Of course I was. Who? Of I. We can go down that whole road of mental illness. That'll last for hours. Of course, I was. I didn't have the mind of Christ. I was lost. I was hurt. I was injured. Yeah, there's a lot of mental illness there. But the Lord, that's even better. God, people can relate to that more than some of the spiritual stuff. You mean you were mentally ill and God saved you from that? Yeah, he did. Isn't that great? It means you can be saved from depression. You can be saved from anxiety and worry and stress. He tells us constantly to get out of that. So, that's the only thing I would stress to anybody watching this or listening to it is, hey, no matter what it is, I'm not the worst case scenario, but you can see how the Lord pulled me out of the dark side. You know, uh, and I know a lot of people that went through a lot worse than me. It doesn't matter. Every story counts. Every testimony counts. But you can The mental illness thing is so rampant and we can be pulled out of that. You know what I mean? We don't have to suffer that the rest of our life. >> Yeah. >> Well, Michael, and I think you could attest to this as well. >> There are people that are going to hear your story and your testimony. they'll hear that, you know, another extreme story testimony from, you know, you pick a genre and then they automatically think to themselves, well, maybe that counts for him because he was way out there, but it doesn't really count for me because, you know, I was raised in a good family with my mom and my dad there and you know, there was never any abuse and you know, I got A's and B's and, you know, everything's all right and I, you know, I pay my taxes and I don't speed all the time. And so they think that their testimony is not worthy of sharing. Yeah. Or worthy of building a personal ministry around because again everyone gets obsessed with building a ministry. Right. So that means books and podcasts and conferences and you know whatever the thing is and they forget about the individual ministry of evangelism one at a time >> of being the hands and feet of the Lord with you know loving their neighbor literally their neighbor sometimes as their self. And so I I mean I know that you would agree with that. You know, you've got a very unique story, but there's a lot of people listening to this right now that God is going to work through your story as well. >> They're all unique. >> That's right. >> Because everybody has a different upbringing. Uh people ask me all the time, "How do you minister to a homosexual or to an atheist or to an agnostic?" I don't know. I tell every time they ask me, "I don't know. I don't know what you're saying." Well, how do you minister to them? I don't know, but the Lord knows. See, the key is is given it to the Lord in that moment because it's happened on beaches in California, New York City, wherever I'm at. He will send them and he's equipped you to handle it. Because again, like he says, be afraid not what to speak. It's not you. It's the Holy Spirit in you. If we rely on the Lord, Satan would have us do nothing more than minister to people that aren't going to get it. He has some fornowledge. You know what I mean? There's some people we should just say, "Hey, enough is enough. >> I'm not spending more time with you. You don't have the eyes to see. >> Stop your feet." >> And move on. Right? Where God will lead you where he wants you to minister, you know, and and lead, he'll give you the words to say. There's How do you minister these people? I have no clue. I don't know. I don't want to know until that happens. >> Well, let's talk about that even a little bit further, okay? Because we've had people or I I've talked to individual people that they'll describe some something from their story, whether it's their testimony, how they they got saved or how they were, you know, got over addiction or, you know, how they got through this relationship or they got through this hard time, whatever. And then they immediately follow that up with, you know, God can't really do anything with me. And I'm like, okay, pause. Time out. So, let let's take some terrible scenarios. You were sexually abused or assaulted. Um, you had a family member that was murdered. you um had a business partner screw you over, you had to work your way through the death of a child. Like, let's talk about some real awful scenarios, okay? >> You are more qualified to minister to someone that has been through that same thing than I am because everything that I just described I have not experienced. Okay? >> And so, you become now uniquely suited. So because what Satan meant to destroy you, God is now going to use as a center point of your ministry. Because if you are 10 years past losing a child and someone in your world or in your orbit just lost a child 3 months ago, >> are you not going to be able to help that that couple walk through the next stages of grief? >> Go for it. >> Kind of. Yeah. Now, I agree with you to a certain point, but think about this. Christ never had any of that happen. Yet he can minister to everybody. Right. So I'm saying in now I'm not discounting you are right. >> Yeah. >> In most cases, but think about this. If we're led by the spirit, he's going to know exactly how to get to that person's heart. >> Right. I mean, now we can disagree. We don't We're not disagreeing, >> but I've had a lot of people, you never were a drug addict, so how could you know what I'm going through? I don't have to know. Christ didn't know. He didn't. He wasn't a drug addict. He >> died for it. But think think about it on a different we ought to look up at ourselves do some introspection but also be open to uh like some of the stuff we talked about you know let's say once saved always saved or speaking in tongues or whatever being baptized fully or not fully or dripping whatever we have to look at it all and let the Lord lead us in all that but the same thing with ministering I don't know I was never a drug addict so how do I know well addictions are pretty much the same in a in a sense. Do you know what I mean? You can't get enough of it. You know, in other words, if I'm led by the Lord, he's going to give me the words to say and the compassion to say it and the love. Love never fails. You know what I mean? We we're we're not looking for anything back out of that situation. We're just trying. We have a heart for them because the Lord has a heart. So, that's a that's kind of another way of looking at it. But I think that's correct in that had you been there and gone down that I've never lost a child, but I can imagine, you know what I mean, through his compassion, through the Lord's compassion that he's given me what it would feel like. Now, is it exactly the same? I don't know. But I'm I'm thinking one thing we can always go to because I've had that brought up to me a lot. Well, you never did this. Well, do I had to experience it in order to minister to it? I don't think so. >> Well, look, you and I talked at lunch about um when I spoke at Lewisburg prison up in Pennsylvania a few years back and >> you know, I I've talked a lot about it before, but we get new viewers and listeners every week, but here I am. They put me in the stab vest, and I'm like, this is so fun. It was my dumb and dumber moment. It's like, what if they shoot me in the face? It's like, you know, what is this stupid vest going to do? but part of their protocol. And at one point, the guy that's walking me around, he was, you know, chaplain and um he goes and walks off, you know, and goes doing something and here I am standing on rock. I'm on my own. All the the, you know, jail cells are open. >> There's people walking up and by me. People that don't even know why I'm there. People don't know who I am, kind of looking me up and down. I'm right next to the cell with the sheh that the guys that are like selling their bodies, uh, you know, for some level of protection while they're inside, all the different things. And I just remember having that thought, >> man, if I get killed like in the process of doing this, like I think my sons were three and one at the time. And it's just kind of like, well, >> that would be a story of of martyrdom because I was there to share Christ with those people. But also, it's like, wouldn't that be a a great story of ministry? Like, I'm not going to raise my hand and choose martyrdom if I get other options, right? >> But it was one of those unique moments that whenever I went up in front of that group of people, right? >> Here, I had I had introduced myself to all the guys that walked in because it was not compelled attendance. you you could attend my my talk if you wanted to, but no one had come to sp speak to them in years. And I got, you know, to know some of their names and all that. And then through the process, all right, well, this guy's in here for, you know, Grand Theft Auto. This guy's in here for pedophilia. This guy's in here for murder. Uh, this guy's murdered multiple people in his process of being a gangbanger, whatever the thing was. And I had just talked to Phil Robertson. This was obviously before he passed. And I know he had done a lot of speaking of prisons and things like that, you know, Angola down there in Louisiana. And his line to these men is, "Look, you can be under lock and key and still be free, >> right?" >> And he's like, "Son, that is your job when you go out there is to just share that message with them." And so I got up there basically like, "Hey, you know the difference between me and you. The difference is is when I get done talking, I get to leave and go home, right? Y'all have to stay here." But you broke the laws of man. I broke the laws not of man, but you broke the laws of God. and I also broke the laws of God. So in that way, we are brothers. >> Our geographical locations notwithstanding, we have both dishonored God by breaking his moral and natural law. >> And so with that in mind, >> you can still be free even though you are under lock and key. So can we just dispense with all this nonsense that I'm somehow special cuz I'm holding a microphone right? >> And you could kind of feel everyone's shoulders like kind of get a little bit of the tension come out. And so that was one of those moments where I didn't have to experience the crimes that those men had uh you know perpetrated on other people most of the time and I could still be an effective minister to them albeit while at the same time had I done some of those things you know the level of understanding would have been just deeper as I would have been ministering to them. >> Right. Um yeah I've spoken a few prisons max security and minim uh mean medium and minimum and what I had for them is the same thing. I could be in here, right? But I'm not. Thank God I'm not. I could easily be in here. But guess you're locked up, but your prayers aren't. >> Yeah. >> I said, you know how powerful prayers are? >> Yeah. There's no ceiling in here that can keep that out. >> There's nothing that can keep you from praying for me, you know, for your brothers and sisters in Christ and for your enemies, you know. Can you imagine this this this jail changing if you started praying for those people instead of just wanting to cut them off? In fact, a good thing would have been take your vest off if you felt called to. Yeah, >> cuz I did. I felt called to take that vest off and say, "You know what? I'm free game if you wanted me." You know what I mean? >> There may be a fight and I'm sure I'll lose, but guess what? God's got me protected. He's got you protected. And your prayers go beyond these walls. So think of this as a you guys are blessed in a way that you have the time and not all the distraction of the world and all the gifts of the world and everything else in the world distracting you from what you need to be doing. So now it's intercessory prayer for you. >> Don't think that as a bad thing. Think it as a good thing. Take it as good. You did what you did. A lot of us should be in here. We're not. Not all of us are in here. But take that as a moment to say, "Hey, thank you, Lord. Use me the way you're going to use me." Because I used to get a hold of Mark David Chapman. I wanted his demons. He killed John Lennon. So I'd write him back and forth and after a couple months he he'd start writing me back and he became a Christian. He has a powerful ministry. And he goes, "I really never went out. I I can't get out of Attica for what I did." But he goes, "God's using me mightily in here and you need salvation." That's he tried to talk me into salvation. So I stopped talking to him. That was when I was on the dark side. So I I thought of what he said. He had this powerful ministry. God has him in there where you and I couldn't do it. He's amongst them. You know what I mean? He did a horrible thing. He came to Christ, which I believe he did, like the son of Sam did, too. And now they're in there ministering whether people want to believe it or not. Their actions are you can see it. It never changes. Day by day, they've changed and now they're helping others. So, who else can get in there? We can't. We can go there for a moment and they're going, "Oh, they're they're gone." You know? So, their prayers are what I convinced them. Hey, just please start praying for me and pray for my family. Pray for other brothers and sisters in Christ and keep us lifted up because that's powerful. And and so many of them got that. They're going, "Oh, that's a new thought. That's excellent." You know, so there's there's a word of encouragement to them. That's that's real for them, you know, and and uh it's real for all of us. They can't stop the prayers. >> That's right. That's right. Well, Michael, I'm glad you and I bumped into each other. Well, actually, I'm glad I bumped into your lovely bride and that she uh she noticed some ink on my arm and that we kind of brought everything back together. Go. >> If anybody wants to get a hold of me, >> Yes. >> had them get a hold of you, >> okay? >> Or whatever. You know what I mean? Uh send an email. I don't I got off all social media a few years ago. It was too distracting for me and uh it's a problem on the on the promotion side of movies or anything else I'm doing, but I felt like I needed to be off of there. Okay. >> So, uh they can get a hold of you. You can give them my email. Oh, you can give my phone number. I don't care what you do. Yep. >> If you feel led to give it, give it. But I'm available to anybody. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Guys, info@ond.life is the email inbox or you can go to any of our uh usually Instagram is going to be easier if you want to kind of get a message over to Michael. But thanks for coming on and uh for sharing your testimony, sharing your story. Thank you buddy. >> Talk again soon. >> Yep. >> Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast or shoot me an email to info@undantton.life, that's info@undanton.life, follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpeta, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.