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On limited availability, service, and select locations only.
1:20
This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
1:24
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:26
Let's get into it.
1:27
All right, guys.
1:28
We've got a special guest on the podcast today.
1:29
Her name is Megan Basham.
1:30
So she is a journalist, reporter, and author.
1:32
She is a culture reporter for The Daily Wire, and she is the New York Times bestselling
1:35
author of her new book, Shepherds for Sale, how evangelical leaders traded the truth for
1:41
a leftist agenda.
1:42
So I have gotten so many requests, emails, DMs, text messages from people, hey, you're
1:48
going to talk to Megan Basham about her new book.
1:50
Hey, have you thought about Megan Basham?
1:51
Hey, have you ever heard about Megan Basham?
1:52
The answer is yes, I've heard of her.
1:53
Yes, I'm familiar with her.
1:54
Yes, I'm familiar with the book.
1:55
And yes, I was working on it, and yes, we got it for you today, okay, guys?
1:58
So we didn't have all the time in the world.
2:00
So I mean, really the depth she goes into in each chapter of her book would have really
2:05
leaned more towards like a two or three hour long conversation to really, really, really
2:10
dig into the meat.
2:11
But I will just tell you from the outset, I think it is well worth your money and your
2:14
time to invest in reading Shepherds for Sale.
2:16
So this has been kind of been a weird year for books.
2:18
There haven't really been that many great books that I've read where I was like, yeah,
2:21
you really should read them too.
2:23
So Shepherds for Sale is one of those.
2:24
It's not like being black by Vodie Bockham is another.
2:27
But in this particular interview today, we don't really get into how do you become a
2:30
journalist and what's it like working out the daily wire?
2:32
We just got right into the book, like the ultimate purpose for her book, why she chose
2:36
to dig in on these subject matters, you know, because it's a very disputatious book and
2:41
it can get into a lot of different topics, but she was acting like a journalist and just
2:45
following the thread and following the money.
2:47
But then, you know, ask her, you know, what was it like getting all this pushback or she's
2:50
still getting a whole lot of pushback, a lot of people are responding to her comments
2:53
and making claims about her work that aren't exactly true, like how she's dealing with
2:57
all that.
2:58
But then we dig into like the actual contents of the book because the book goes into a lot
3:02
of subjects.
3:03
So the chapters talk about climate change, illegal immigration, pro life movement, Christian
3:07
media, COVID-19, race, me too, and church too, and then the LGBTQ plus revolution.
3:12
We really only had time to cover race, the pro life movement, LGBTQ, but how she come
3:16
up with those, how did she basically follow the threads?
3:19
We also talked about some of the main villains of the book.
3:22
So kind of the two main villains that are most prominently featured throughout the entire
3:25
book are Russell Moore and JD Greer.
3:28
And how those two guys are actually operating a little bit differently where it seems like
3:32
Russell Moore kind of knows what he's doing and is kind of like finagling his way and
3:36
really creating these tendrils of negativity, whereas JD Greer is just kind of like going
3:40
along to get along and he's kind of getting sucked up in all this negative energy.
3:43
We also talk about, you know, Tim Keller and how he's such an important minister and, you
3:47
know, may he rest in peace, but some of the crazy things he said on the social and cultural
3:51
side.
3:52
And we just went all over the place and got in and out of a lot of these subject matters,
3:55
guys.
3:56
I really, really think you're going to enjoy this conversation today.
3:58
So without further ado, let's get into it.
4:01
Megan Bastian, welcome to adult to life of man's podcast.
4:04
Thank you.
4:05
I appreciate you having me here and kind of the boys room.
4:08
Yeah.
4:09
This is the boys room.
4:10
And I can tell you, like I told you, off air, the guys are used to clearing throats and
4:13
different things like that.
4:14
Just served by nose.
4:15
Megan is a little bit under the weather because she hasn't been sleeping a whole lot because
4:17
she's doing a bunch of these.
4:18
So guys, if she sounds a little different than she normally does, give her a little bit of
4:22
grace here.
4:23
But normally Megan, I would say, Hey, let's find a soft place to land.
4:25
What was it like growing up?
4:26
Megan Bastian, you know, how did you want to be a journalist?
4:28
But we really just need to dig into the new book.
4:30
We need to dig into shepherds for sale because it's an incredible thing to see the amount
4:37
of vitriol that's coming your way for this book.
4:41
And you can tell by some people that haven't even read, read the thing.
4:44
But I've seen things all over my timeline about how poorly researched this book was
4:49
and how you're grasping its straws the whole time.
4:51
And you're not even a real journalist.
4:52
You work for the Daily Wire.
4:53
So how could you be a real journalist?
4:55
But probably my most fun critique that I've heard so far is that you've been violating
4:58
the ninth command.
4:59
I don't know if you knew that, but you are bearing false witness against your neighbor.
5:03
So we'll dig into the book and what it's about and then we'll get into details.
5:06
But for somebody that's, I believe this is your first book to hit the market.
5:09
Were you expecting this level?
5:10
It's second.
5:11
It's second.
5:12
It's been a minute.
5:13
One was way back in 2008, so.
5:15
But were you expecting this level of pushback and negative feedback on your work?
5:21
So I expected pushback, so I haven't been surprised by that.
5:25
I knew that it was a little bit going to be kicking a hornet's nest.
5:30
I didn't expect the pushback to take the form that it has, because so much of it has been
5:36
what you just described there, which has been, you shouldn't even read this book or I'm not
5:40
going to read this book, it's already perfectly clear what she's doing.
5:45
And so it seems like there's been a real attempt to try to discredit the material I present
5:51
before anyone's even given it a hearing.
5:53
Now, I think it's largely been an unsuccessful effort, but it's been a very strong effort.
5:57
Yeah, certainly it has been very strong, but it's one of those things that, you know, if
6:01
you hear people talking so negatively about a movie, then it's going to affect your ability
6:06
to want to see that movie, even if you were excited by the preview or not.
6:10
So we need to get into the book itself, but I want to read a quick quote that I think
6:13
kind of captures what you're going for.
6:16
My ultimate purpose is to confirm for average evangelicals and the pews that the uneasy
6:20
feelings many of you have been having, perhaps for some years now, that your pulpits and
6:24
your institutions are being co-opted by political forces with explicitly secular progressive
6:29
aims are justified.
6:31
So Megan, just to start simply, why this book?
6:34
Why right now?
6:35
Why you?
6:36
Right.
6:37
You know, I started writing this book and this will explain the why me and it's, I don't
6:42
know.
6:43
That must have been God's plan because I didn't set out to go, I am going to write this controversial
6:48
book about the church.
6:51
It really felt like every step of the way, God just kind of pushed me through doors.
6:57
Initially I worked at a Christian magazine, still have really good friends there.
7:02
And this, this sort of battles, the fault lines that Vodie Bakam wrote about came into
7:08
my workplace.
7:09
I started to experience it at my church, at my kids Christian school.
7:14
So you know, I'm just an evangelical mom out here who did not have my head in all of these
7:21
spaces myself.
7:22
I just started experiencing it right along with everyone else, like to give you one example.
7:27
In 2020, I got an email from the children's director at our then church, telling all the
7:33
parents how they could talk to their kids about their white privilege.
7:37
And these were the same things we were debating at work.
7:39
And all of these things happening made me go, I feel like we have a problem here.
7:44
And a lot of people were experiencing that.
7:47
And so I started reporting on it as that turned into COVID and we saw how the church handled
7:52
COVID and I think there were a lot of failures there.
7:57
And I wrote about that and had some reporting go viral.
8:00
I had a publisher approach me and say, hey, listen, some of these stories that you've
8:05
been working on, we think there's a book in this.
8:09
So put together a proposal, ended up selling the book, and in the long run I ended up at
8:15
Harper Collins, not the initial publisher that wanted the proposal, but kind of every
8:20
step of the way, there have been people coming to me and saying, Hey, have you heard about
8:25
this?
8:26
Have you told this story?
8:27
Should you should look into this?
8:28
And so I feel like I've just kind of been following wherever God's been leading without
8:33
really thinking too deeply about what comes next.
8:36
When Megan, you're, you're blowing the top off of certain things that, you know, when
8:40
you just hear them outright, they sound almost conspiracy theory-ish, but you do show your
8:44
receipts.
8:45
And one of the big things that we can't super dig into, but that you talk about early in
8:47
the book is about the fact that if you could flip the evangelical vote in America, if you
8:53
could just flip it from red to purple, you know, talking in broad terms, that would basically
8:57
completely change the political landscape of our country and perhaps irrevocably.
9:02
But as we get into this discussion, because we need to go ahead and get into some of the
9:06
main characters of this nonfiction, a lot of times I've said things similar to this.
9:10
I didn't make this up.
9:11
But for evil, Marxist, communist, kind of socialistic ideas to take hold and to flourish,
9:18
you need two categories of people.
9:20
You need conscious nefarious actors, and you need useful idiots.
9:23
And so in this book, you identify, you know, many people and you name names that could
9:28
fit into one of those two categories, whether as a whole, or just about, you know, their
9:32
particular thoughts on a particular issue.
9:34
So you talk about Andy Stanley and Rick Warren, we'll get into them a little bit later, but
9:37
you also bring up Tim Keller and Matt Chandler and Beth Moore and David French and Francis
9:41
Collins.
9:42
And you kind of go on and on for their from there.
9:45
But if I Megan were to categorize as far as, you know, what you showed in Shepherds for
9:49
sale, I think there are two main villains in the book that you bring up in one, I would
9:54
categorize as a conscious nefarious actor and one, I would categorize as a useful idiot.
10:00
The conscious nefarious actor is probably the main villain of the book.
10:02
And that's Russell Moore.
10:04
And the main villain or the main dunce of the book, I guess you could say, at least in
10:07
terms of what you presented is JD Greer.
10:10
And so if you could briefly tell us like, who are these two men?
10:14
Why did they feature so prominently in the book?
10:16
Because you know, like Matt Chandler is a good buddy of mine, he disappeared in the book
10:19
a couple of different places you just made mention, but JD appeared in multiple chapters
10:23
and Russell Moore basically appeared in every single chapter.
10:26
Did you mean to focus in on those two guys mainly or did it just kind of reveal itself
10:31
that way?
10:32
It was very much the latter.
10:34
It just revealed itself that way.
10:36
And some of the people who appeared in the book, I can tell you, I knew going in that
10:40
I would have preferred to not talk about them.
10:43
For example, Tim Keller, because he had just passed away.
10:46
I knew there were a lot of sensitive feelings there.
10:49
I would have very much preferred and actually fought at one point.
10:52
I'm going to probably just leave Tim Keller alone, except that it was unavoidable as I
10:56
was going through research and I was investigating what was happening.
11:01
It became very clear that I could not do my due diligence and present a true picture without
11:07
talking about him.
11:08
And that was very much the case with Russell Moore.
11:11
So many roads led to him.
11:13
When you talk about the different kinds of ways that people might sell themselves and
11:18
one of the things that's been funny and we were just talking about that the pushback
11:22
has been the refusal to acknowledge that a title can be both literal and figurative
11:28
and it is.
11:29
It is both.
11:30
So sometimes you can deliberately sell your influence to left-wing funders, but people
11:36
also sort of sell themselves out for the adulation of the media or the world.
11:41
And that's also a kind of selling, you might say.
11:44
And in fact, I took this title from a think tank that was a Soros and Bill Gates funded
11:51
think tank.
11:52
They had written a report about how to infiltrate evangelicals on the issue of climate change
11:58
and they had called it the evangelicals for rent model.
12:02
And at one point we had thought maybe we could title this book evangelicals for rent, but
12:07
it just seemed clunky when I was crowdsourcing it with friends and going, what do you think
12:12
about this?
12:13
So that's how we ended up at Shepherds for sale.
12:15
And Russell Moore was just a consistent figure with all of these influential left-wing funded
12:23
organizations like the evangelical immigration table.
12:27
He actually appears in some open society documentation that's George Soros's foundation was listed
12:35
as a grantee.
12:37
So that was probably the reason why I kept running into instances where Russell Moore
12:42
could not be avoided.
12:44
If you look at the #MeToo issue and how that was handled in the Southern Baptist Convention,
12:49
it was very clear that Russell Moore was not someone who was just reacting to the cultural
12:54
zeitgeist.
12:55
He had some figures in that chapter, you mentioned J.D. Greer, who I think probably were doing
12:59
that.
13:00
That was the dominant thing in the culture at that moment in 2018, 2019.
13:04
#MeToo was all the rage.
13:06
And so they were just kind of moving to a line with what the acceptable cultural worldview
13:11
was on that issue.
13:13
Russell Moore was different.
13:14
He was orchestrating what was happening in so many of these instances, specifically through
13:20
his close relationship with influential media outlets, The Washington Post, The New York
13:26
Times.
13:27
This actually made me laugh when it came out, a New York Times piece that named Russell
13:34
Moore a dissenter trying to save evangelicals from themselves.
13:39
So for him, it just seemed like a much more proactive orchestrated type of strategy as
13:46
opposed to someone just being acted upon by the prevailing cultural wins.
13:53
When I think that's the delineating point between the conscious nefarious actors and
13:57
the useful idiots.
13:58
Because I know that's kind of like a harsh phraseology for some people, but it's like
14:01
we've all been useful idiots at one point or another for some sort of an ideology.
14:06
But not all of us have been pastors of enormous churches or the president of the SBC or a
14:11
big person in media or in big EVA or something like that.
14:14
So the consequences of our ignorance are a lot worse.
14:17
So in the book, you talk about a lot of different subjects and guys, I was able to read this
14:21
book in a couple of days.
14:22
There's so much inside of it though, we're not going to be able to cover or even scratch
14:26
the surface on a lot of these.
14:27
So go and buy the book it is in the show notes, but you cover the dark money influence and
14:32
kind of how that's been influencing climate change, illegal immigration, the pro-life
14:37
movement, Christian media, COVID-19, race, MeToo/church2, and then the LGBTQ+ revolution.
14:44
So we're just going to cover the ones that I find to be the most incendiary.
14:48
So the one I want to start with is actually race and then we'll get into pro-life stuff
14:51
and then make sure we get into LGBTQ.
14:53
So on the race thing, this is where JD Greer featured prominently in this chapter as the
14:58
former president of the Southern Baptist Convention.
15:01
Because he was dubbed by some people as the anti-racist reformer, which is kind of like
15:05
this grand title almost, and he kind of became this mainstream media darling as this big
15:10
evil guy that is going against kind of the hegemonic viewpoints of this old institution.
15:18
But to set this up, it's going to take a while to set it up, but he openly bragged that he
15:21
went out of his way to ensure that two thirds of the North American Mission Board, which
15:25
is essentially the SBC's planting and missionary support wing, that they were either women or
15:29
people of color because they "needed" their wisdom, which is essentially straight up racist
15:34
against white men and it's straight up standpoint epistemology or to use a voting-bachum phrase
15:38
not ethnic Gnosticism.
15:41
But then you have in the 2021 SBC National Convention, he said, "We mourn when closet
15:46
racist and neo-Confederates feel more at home in our churches than do many of our people
15:50
of color."
15:51
And he said that without even doing anything that resembled evidence or providing some
15:56
sort of evidentiary basis to back up such a serious claim, CRT was accepted as an analytical
16:02
tool while under his tutelage and leadership at the SBC conventions.
16:06
But here's the thing, Megan, and this is my struggle, is I have been told by reliable
16:11
sources that J.D. Greer is a good dude, that he is a good guy in the fight, that he is
16:15
about God's kingdom, and that might be true.
16:19
But even if that were true, Megan, he's so woefully ignorant out of line on the issue
16:23
of race and also other issues, but specifically on the issue of race.
16:27
And I feel like this is the one issue, it's this issue in LGBTQ stuff where Christians
16:31
can be just suckered in to the category of useful idiots so easily.
16:36
Again, I know that took a long time to set up, but help me kind of understand why the
16:40
race issue in particular can get a guy like J.D. Greer or other thinking individuals and
16:44
kind of get them suckered into a non-biblical, non-Christian position.
16:48
Well, and you know, part of what I do in the book for a long time is I do try to not ascribe
16:53
motives where I don't have it in black and white because I can't read hearts and I don't
16:58
know, but what I can tell you is I could set what J.D. Greer was doing in cultural context.
17:05
So we know that as he became president of the SBC, there was that summer of 2020, the BLM,
17:14
George Floyd riots, and one of the things we saw were political leaders like Nancy Pelosi,
17:21
Chuck Schumer, calling for removing statues of not just people associated with the Confederacy,
17:30
but also our former leaders, our historical leaders who had been slaveholders or anyone
17:37
who had been touched by that particular unrighteousness in the past and yet they are a part of
17:42
our history and like all human beings, they are a mix of good things and bad things and
17:47
we honor them for those good things and anyway, we saw that it was just this massive effort
17:52
to sort of strip the United States of so much of its historical record and at the same time
17:59
as J.D. was coming in to the SBC, he kind of started to do the same thing and I mentioned
18:06
that he, for example, retired the gavel of John Broadus who was Robert E. Lee's chaplain
18:13
and it had been used in the SBC for many, many, many, many years and he said that he felt
18:19
uncomfortable using it.
18:20
It was right there in that summer of 2020 that he retired that gavel and, you know, he
18:27
objected and this was just this week and tried to say, that's not why I did it except
18:31
that the record at the time shows that Washington Post, even the gospel coalition in which he
18:37
serves as a council member said that that was why he did it.
18:41
And so it was something that was just paralleling to a T, what we saw happening in the wider
18:47
culture and same thing with that desire to rename the Southern Baptist Convention.
18:53
It was to erase that Southern connection and I apologize, I have a cough drop in my mouth
19:00
so that I'm not coughing on my way through the interview.
19:02
But so we saw that also with the wanting to change the name to Great Commission Baptist
19:09
in order to distance from the history of the Southern Baptist Convention.
19:15
And that is not to say that, you know, everyone should be proud of everything and every stance
19:18
that the Southern Baptist Convention took.
19:20
I think it is good that at points throughout history, the Southern Baptists have said,
19:24
hey, we repent of the period of time in which we were aligned with slavery as an institution,
19:32
we reject racism.
19:33
That was a good thing to do, but there is the sense in which people who have a history
19:39
that isn't founded in those groups are not allowed to acknowledge that anything good came
19:44
out of it, that anything good lived in those people.
19:48
And so anyway, that was part of what I was drawing a distinction to with J.D. Greer was
19:54
that he was part of this larger cultural moment in wanting to do the same things with the
20:00
Southern Baptist Convention that we saw Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, a lot of liberal groups
20:05
wanting to do in the culture at large.
20:08
And then you marry that to what was happening with CRT coming in and using this language
20:15
of the oppressed and the oppressors.
20:17
And this dichotomy of saying that these people, these white people are the oppressors and black
20:24
people in churches are the oppressed and not seeing us as individuals.
20:28
There was nothing biblical about that to me.
20:31
And I showed a video where I don't know if he knew it.
20:34
I tend to think he didn't know it, but he was reading a glossary from the Aspen Institute
20:40
that was just chock full of critical race theory lingo and ideas.
20:46
And when I see that, I go, my question is, does this person have the discernment then
20:53
to be a leader?
20:55
Because he may be very well-meaning and may have had very sincere reasons for what he
20:59
was doing, but there was a lack of discernment there when you literally had the Aspen Institute
21:04
glossary full of CRT ideas and worldview diametrically opposed to scripture.
21:11
And you are promoting that to your Christian audience.
21:15
And that's what we saw.
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I certainly think it's a concern and look, I don't normally have a whole lot of grace
22:52
in my disposition.
22:54
So I have to like think about it to have grace for people.
22:56
That's the shock to know when the listeners are the show.
22:58
But I have grace for people that come around and say, gosh, I can't believe I said that.
23:01
I can't believe I had that opinion again.
23:03
I've been a public figure with the show since 2017.
23:06
So there are certainly things in the archives that I don't agree with anymore.
23:09
But like, you know, for instance, when Matt Chandler and you put this in the book where
23:12
he said that he would hire a black seven over an Anglo eight, well, whenever I interviewed
23:17
him for the first time, I asked him about that and he's like, if I could take one sentence
23:20
back from any sermon I've ever done in my entire life, that would be the one.
23:25
And it's because he did experience regret over putting it that way, even though he fervently
23:29
believed it at the time.
23:31
And that's why again, there's there's the categories of conscious nefarious actors, the
23:34
people that are kind of like pulling the strings in the people on the other side.
23:38
And so to really get into the next conversation about the whole pro life movement, this is
23:42
where Russell Moore really featured prominently as well because of his non reaction to the
23:48
overturning of Roe v. Wade on June the 24th of 2022.
23:51
So I want to read a short quote from the book.
23:52
Sure, it came as something of a shock then when many of the big name evangelical leaders
23:56
who were supposed to represent pro life activists, like her sounded distinctly less than celebratory.
24:02
Instead, a number of them used the fall of row as an opportunity to argue for bigger
24:07
government and to bolster the pro abortion narrative that Christians only care about
24:10
babies before they're born to which I would say a frickin man.
24:14
I loved that section there because I was like, I literally was in the middle of mowing
24:18
the lawn and I got the call that Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey went over and
24:22
I immediately started crying.
24:23
I run up to my studio and I'm like, it's still covered in dirt and sweat and I'm recording
24:27
this episode.
24:28
I'm so over the top.
24:29
Like I stopped what I was doing to respond to something that pro lifers and Christians
24:32
have been fighting for decades.
24:34
And then we either saw these like, well, we got to think about both sides here.
24:38
We know there are people that are crushed today.
24:40
And then we had people like Russell Moore who basically said nothing for weeks.
24:44
And so why on this issue, which was packaged Megan distinctly as a Christian issue for
24:51
all these times, trying to protect image bearers of God, why did all of a sudden these
24:56
big Eva people specifically Russell Moore either go silent or try to like acquiesce to
25:00
both sides without being celebratory?
25:02
Well, you know, I know it's uncomfortable for people, but I think there's actually a very
25:06
simple answer to this one and it's Donald Trump.
25:09
Donald Trump was the president who did keep his promise and he did appoint pro life justices.
25:16
And it was a result of those appointments that we saw the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
25:21
And you had people who had so staked a position on being morally superior for having opposed
25:27
Trump and having not voted for him that to admit that this was a significant victory would
25:33
have I think in their eyes diminished that moral certitude that they had it through that
25:40
into a state of questioning because that was a good and we should have all been able to
25:47
celebrate it as a good and they didn't.
25:49
And in fact, you had some saying I wouldn't have paid this price or this wasn't the right
25:54
way to do it.
25:56
And I think that is a big part of why he said nothing for a number of weeks.
26:00
And then when he finally did say something, what he said was fairly disingenuous because
26:05
he said, well, something to the effect of I think anybody, any president, conservative
26:10
Republican president, you would have seen the same result.
26:13
Well, we didn't though.
26:14
And in fact, the George W. Bush appointee, um, he did not sign on to the majority opinion
26:22
right over turning row.
26:24
So John Roberts was going to have a much narrower opinion that still would have left
26:29
row essentially in place.
26:31
And so that didn't float, but he still went with that.
26:34
And I think that is part of why he was so silent for so long because it was almost like,
26:39
how are we going to address this?
26:41
Um, yeah.
26:42
Yeah.
26:43
And then you, I mean, you saw sort of the tortured logic that came out when they did
26:46
finally start speaking.
26:47
Oh, tortured logic is exactly that because you're, you, you said it right there in that
26:51
short quote, but evangelicals went from thinking that from womb to tomb was like this new concept
26:57
that we've never actually thought about this before, but they, what they attached it to
27:01
was only left wing, wishless items like universal healthcare, universal childcare, universal
27:06
paid family leave, uh, you know, universal basic income free college.
27:10
And they just ignored strong churches, strong marriages, strong families, strong fathers,
27:15
like all of these things, they were just very, very silent about that.
27:18
But in this as well, uh, you know, it, it does provide me some, cause some internal
27:22
consternation and dissonance when I talk about Tim Keller as well, because Tim Keller's ministry
27:26
and his books have been very, very important to me.
27:28
We have a book list on our website, the 100 books every modern Christian man should read
27:31
lists.
27:32
He's got two books on that list.
27:34
So I legitimately say when I say even mentioned Tim Keller, may he rest in peace, but he really,
27:39
really screwed the pooch late in his life as it pertained to a myriad of social and cultural
27:43
issues.
27:44
And it just, we have to be able to talk about it while holding him in tension because his
27:49
public comments on abortion were just astonishing.
27:52
So I'll read a quote from the book.
27:53
This is actually a direct quote from a Tim Keller tweet.
27:57
I know abortion is a sin, but the Bible doesn't tell me the best political policy to decrease
28:02
or end abortion in this country, nor which political or legal policies are most effective
28:07
to that end.
28:08
And I just saw, I just sat there and I read that sentence over and over Meghan because
28:11
I read that when he tweeted that years ago being like, what is he talking about?
28:16
Like of course we can't go to, you know, second Timothy and find exactly what the wording
28:21
should be inside of a law for the federal government.
28:24
But clearly we know which laws to advocate for the ones that protect human life and which
28:28
ones to advocate against the ones that destroy human life.
28:31
There's also another quote here that says, as a Christian post op ed put it, replace the
28:35
word abortion with the word slavery and imagine if Keller would have still felt comfortable
28:39
signing his name to that, that tweet.
28:42
And so Meghan, even someone like Tim Keller, who was a great leader and had a lot of great
28:47
ideas and did tremendous things for the gospel in a depraved place like New York City.
28:52
Why was this abortion issue just one of those issues that these guys couldn't just be like,
28:56
yes, we shouldn't kill image bearers of Christ.
28:59
If you want to hang me for it, hang me.
29:01
But let's dig our heels into the ground on this issue.
29:04
Well, you know, as I've said, I think there can be a lot of different motivations and you
29:08
just brought up what Tim Keller's may have been New York City.
29:12
He was ministering in a very blue state in a very blue city and would have had a mission
29:19
field that was very opposed to an idea like that.
29:23
And I think maybe that's part of why so much of Keller's leader work focused on that, what
29:29
we've now come to term the third way option, Christ is neither right nor left.
29:34
He's this third thing that's somewhere in the middle.
29:37
But of course, I would say actually, if there is a third way, it's way over to the right
29:43
of the right in the sense that I as a social conservative who believes in the sanctity
29:48
of human life and the sanctity of marriage as being between a man and a woman, I am too
29:53
conservative for the GOP now very often.
29:56
So to me, that's the real third way and that certainly isn't something that would have
30:00
been well received in a culture like urban New York.
30:05
So I think that's part of it.
30:07
And also when they brought in some of the arguments for how Christians could show their
30:15
pro-life bona fides as opposed to voting for pro-life candidates and outlawing murder
30:19
in law, which I think is very clearly scriptural that governing authorities have a responsibility
30:26
to protect citizens and protect their lives.
30:29
There's to punish wickedness and they are to reinforce good.
30:33
So the very baseline should be, you're not allowed to kill your fellow citizens.
30:37
But instead, they would say things like, well, we could expand the social safety net and
30:42
that could also be a way to be pro-life.
30:45
And we could do things like ensure that women don't ever feel like they need to have an
30:51
abortion.
30:52
Already, that is a slippery, almost dishonest approach to what's really happening with
30:58
abortion.
30:59
It's, well, we need to make it so no woman ever feels like she needs to get an abortion.
31:03
That's actually not when you look at the research why most women are getting abortions.
31:07
It's not because they're in poverty.
31:09
It's not because they're just desperate and think they won't be able to feed themselves
31:15
or clothe themselves if they don't.
31:17
It's just an inconvenience that they do not want.
31:20
And so that already started in a dishonest place.
31:24
And as you said, it also started in a place when they were arguing for the social safety
31:28
net that further entrenched, what I would say is a societal, very much destructive thing
31:36
of removing men from homes, removing fathers from homes.
31:41
And so that would just perpetuate that cycle that we have already seen in, for example,
31:45
the black community where social programs were targeted specifically at them in the 1960s.
31:51
And since then, it has absolutely decimated marriage.
31:55
So that a black person over 40 is the least likely of all Americans to be married.
32:00
So these were the things that I really struggled with with Tim Keller, but you're right, I could
32:04
not get away from that.
32:06
And then also this diluting of what pro life was because the other way to sort of maintain
32:14
that one was credibly pro life without saying we are going to take a position on what our
32:20
legislation should be and what sort of people we should elect in terms of understanding that
32:27
we want to elect people who are going to use their political power to protect babies in
32:30
the womb.
32:31
It became pro life can also be racial justice pro life could also be I didn't remember like
32:40
the entire basket of things that they threw into what pro life meant.
32:44
But what it certainly no longer just meant was protecting babies in the womb.
32:49
Which is again, when you complicate something to to an extreme degree, it becomes problematic
32:55
when you're trying to address the core of the issue.
32:57
Because here's the thing.
32:58
I'll just tell you straight up, Megan, if the cost of expanding the social safety net.
33:03
So let's check all those those boxes that I mentioned earlier, all these universal things
33:06
that are available.
33:08
If the trade was okay, we will do that.
33:11
I will increase my taxes significantly in the taxes of everyone that I know, but abortion
33:15
is completely outlawed for all reasons.
33:17
I think we all take that as legitimately pro life individuals, but that's where the disingenuous
33:21
nature of their, their arguments came out is because that's what that wasn't what they
33:25
were asking for.
33:27
It's kind of like when pro abortion people want to argue about rape and incest, these
33:31
extreme cases that account for well less than 1% of all abortions without addressing the
33:36
99% of abortions.
33:37
And so when you do the Ben Shapiro tactic of, okay, if you give me the 99% of abortions
33:41
that we can illegalize, then I'll talk to you about a middle position on these.
33:46
It's vapid.
33:47
It's nonsensical.
33:48
They don't actually mean it.
33:49
So we're, we don't have a lot of time.
33:51
I wish we could talk more about everything, but we've checked the race box kind of.
33:54
We've checked the abortion box kind of we need to move on to LGBTQ.
33:57
This was the last main chapter of the book.
33:59
I think this is, this is probably the one I said, you know, race and LGBTQ are probably
34:04
the ones that are easiest to get people, but this one is just man, people really get
34:09
been out of shape with this one.
34:10
I want to read a quote from the book here.
34:12
It is hardly surprising then that an all out effort is being made to break down this final
34:16
citadel of orthodoxy.
34:18
While the frontal assaults of LGBTQ activists demanding full inclusion have garnered the
34:23
lion's share of attention, more transformational efforts are being made by well known mega
34:27
churches using their dominance on the evangelical landscape to quietly influence smaller congregations
34:34
to compromise.
34:35
So here, Megan, the, the main villains are Andy Stanley and Rick Warren.
34:39
Now I've done three entire episodes on the Andy Stanley stuff.
34:43
So episode four, 23 is called Andy Stanley's a heretic episode four, 99 update Andy Stanley
34:48
is still a heretic and then episode five, 12 Andy Stanley, the circle drawing snake.
34:53
So you don't need to re elucidate all the things from the conferences and everything.
34:57
But why, why are Andy Stanley and Rick Warren kind of the main guys that you feel like are
35:02
pushing this from their mega church per, you know, for their purposes or from their purchase
35:07
rather.
35:09
So, you know, as I did with a lot of chapters in this book, I traced the dark money that
35:14
was coming in from secular left funders.
35:17
And one of those is an organization called the Arcus Foundation.
35:22
It was started by a, a gay multi multi billionaire John striker heir to a surgical supply company.
35:31
And he began the foundation to specifically try to at that time get gay marriage across
35:40
the legislative line in a number of states, but it kept losing.
35:44
And so of course, a burger fell happened.
35:46
But in the meantime, what he realized was that the reason it kept losing even in places
35:51
like California was because of the influence of Christian voters.
35:55
And so his foundation said, okay, how do we get around this problem of these Christian
35:59
voters?
36:00
And they realized that what they really needed to do was infiltrate and try to change their
36:06
doctrine.
36:07
And that was going to be the only way that they thought at that time that they were going
36:09
to achieve their legislative goals.
36:12
And so that's what they started doing.
36:13
They started funneling millions of dollars into all the, all Christian denominations, Catholics,
36:19
Mainlines.
36:20
I give the example in the book that he gave something like three to five million dollars
36:25
to just one ministry in the United Methodist Church to try to reform their doctrine.
36:31
And of course, they just went through a schism on the issue of gay marriage and ordination.
36:34
And he also started funneling money into evangelical groups.
36:38
So one of those groups is called the Reformation Project.
36:43
And it has a program that trains activists to come into churches and really try to mislead
36:51
and confuse people about what scripture says when it comes to issues of homosexuality,
36:57
gender and marriage.
36:59
So they also, by the way, have a pastors in progress program that it's a confidential
37:04
program that will teach secretly affirming pastors how to slowly move their Bible believing
37:10
congregations toward LGBTQ affirmation.
37:14
So that group Reformation Project was partnering with another group that came right out of
37:21
Andy Stanley's Church.
37:22
And I want to be clear that this wasn't an incidental thing that embracing the journey
37:26
came out of Andy Stanley's Church.
37:28
They encouraged this couple who were the parents of a gay son and eventually became affirming,
37:37
openly trans and gay affirming.
37:40
They encouraged them to start this program and this curriculum called Embracing the Journey.
37:46
And they financially supported it.
37:48
And this program was also partnering, doing conferences and speaking engagements with
37:54
the Reformation Project, the Arcus Funded Group.
37:57
So together, that curriculum then, backed by North Point, Andy Stanley's Church was going
38:04
out into other churches.
38:06
One of their organizational members is a counseling pastor at Saddleback Church.
38:18
And they started a number of this Embracing the Journey groups at Saddleback.
38:23
Now, the question is, did Rick Warren know?
38:28
Because this started under his watch, and of course, he's still an advisor today.
38:32
But did he know what these groups were doing?
38:34
Did he know that they were LGBTQ affirming groups?
38:38
I tried to ask that.
38:40
They didn't answer me, but they did take all of the web pages associated with this Embracing
38:46
the Journey group off their website.
38:48
And in fact, the counseling pastor, who I'm told still works there, even took down his
38:52
linked in.
38:53
So they really tried to erase the trail.
38:56
But what we see is that this was the effective gambit to bring this false doctrine into churches
39:02
all over the country.
39:05
When it's had a wide impact because, I mean, gosh, Rick Warren and Andy Stanley, we're
39:10
talking about two of the top five, maybe most influential pastors that we've had of this
39:15
millennium, certainly between their books and how big their churches have gotten and all
39:19
the churches that use their materials.
39:22
But one of the concerning things about this entire subject, Megan, is pastors scrubbing
39:26
from existence.
39:27
Any of their previous negative comments about homosexuality or just, you know, minimizing
39:31
scripture altogether, there's a quote from the book here, Beth Moore, whose Bible studies
39:35
shaped a generation of Christian women removed passages from her book, Praying God's Word
39:40
that described homosexuality as another deadly assault of the evil and of the evil one in
39:45
our society and encourages those struggling with the issue that God indeed can deliver
39:49
you and completely transform a transformation as a complete transformation as possible.
39:54
She later said those passages had overshot scripture by a mile.
39:57
So she was hedging.
39:58
I have it on good authority that Craig Rochelle, the leader of life church, you know, that
40:01
I attended for over 10 years is here in my backyard, that he and his buddy Bobbie Grewenwald
40:06
that invented the U version Bible app, they've scrubbed the internet clean essentially of
40:11
any of Craig Rochelle's old mentions of homosexuality about it being sinful or any of those types
40:15
of things.
40:16
So I haven't confirmed that myself, but that is something that I have them good authority.
40:19
And then even on this subject, JD Greer steps in it again.
40:22
He said that in reference to homosexuality, that we should not shy shout about what the
40:27
Bible only whispers about, which, you know, I would assume it was pretty loud at Sodom and
40:30
Gomorrah.
40:31
So maybe that was louder than a whisper, but he's also a very staunch supporter and advocate
40:35
of pronoun hospitality, which is knowingly lying, so sinning on purpose by using pronouns
40:41
that are incorrect when referring to someone that is gender confused.
40:44
So he's apparently big on that as well.
40:46
So Megan, why are so many prominent pastors, not just the random passer of the Baptist church
40:51
of 150 people down the street, but these prominent enormous pastors with these huge
40:56
podcasts, huge churches, lots of book deals and all that, why are they being so cowardly
41:03
about what God clearly says in his word so that they can come off as understanding or
41:08
winsome?
41:09
I mean, I think it's unavoidable that we have to look at the fact that this is the number
41:15
one cultural issue that can cost you personally and professionally if you take a stance that
41:23
the culture doesn't like.
41:25
We have seen that.
41:26
I mean, we have seen people like the Baker Jack Phillips put through the ringer being
41:31
sued again and again and again because he wouldn't comply with this LGBTQ orthodoxy.
41:38
We see people get fired from their jobs for just saying the wrong thing about this issue.
41:44
And so I think that that is a big part of it is that this is as much as we saw in Machin's
41:49
era that the question of whether or not you believed in the virgin birth was a point of
41:57
doctrine that people thought that was a little embarrassing to believe in miracles or to
42:01
believe in the supernatural.
42:03
What we see today is that all of these churches will say, yeah, we believe in the virgin birth.
42:09
We believe Christ rose from the dead.
42:11
We believe all of these things.
42:13
So they'll try to say we're still Orthodox, but the things they don't believe is the Bible's
42:17
moral code when it comes to these issues because that's where our point of pain is today.
42:23
And I think that's why you see, if not a total falling away in some of these cases, you are
42:27
seeing just a desire to try to de-emphasize the seriousness of it.
42:33
And it's not to say it is the only very serious sin, but it is certainly very clear throughout
42:37
scripture that if you are practicing this habitually and you do not have repentance
42:42
in this area, you are not going to heaven.
42:45
This keeps you out of heaven.
42:46
You are condemning people to hell by not confronting them with the truth about this issue.
42:51
And I think that desire to avoid saying that plainly is what so clearly makes us sort of
42:59
create these, I don't know, they're not biblical, but they're churchy-sounding jargon of terms
43:06
like pronoun hospitality or like whispering, where the Bible whispers.
43:12
When that is not true, obviously.
43:14
And so that's all I can think is that in so many of these cases, it's not a question
43:19
of funding, though that happens too, I think it is a question of they just know that this
43:25
is the thing that will cost you the adulation of the world.
43:32
And my goodness, it's like, why are we so concerned about the adulation of the world?
43:36
And so again, we didn't have a whole lot of time to really dig into the meat of all these
43:40
chapters because all the chapters are very, very meaty, lots of references, so you can
43:44
check them out in the back of the book.
43:46
So if you think this is so poorly researched, why don't you show your receipts random people
43:49
on Twitter?
43:50
But it seems like you're clearly advocating through all of your reporting here one thing,
43:56
and that's for us to push back darkness.
43:58
And so that's what I'm done to life is here to do.
43:59
We're here to equipment to push back darkness.
44:01
So I've got a few quotes.
44:02
I want to read just a short ones from the end of the book.
44:05
The Bible instructs us to proclaim truth, not to hold centers.
44:09
And anyway, the center is far too liberal place for biblical orthodoxy that goes back
44:13
to something you alluded to earlier.
44:14
Another quote, where shepherds and teachers are compromising the word for the sake of
44:18
worldly approval, where they are belittling their sheep and defaming the church for the
44:22
applause of the important and influential.
44:25
We should not reward them by remaining in their churches or buying their books.
44:29
And one last quote here, maybe one of my favorite quotes of the book, they are in fact starving
44:32
the sheep to appease the goats, Megan, you even talked about in this book toward the end
44:37
about Charles Spurgeon, everybody's favorite pastor, right?
44:40
He spoke openly and full-throatedly against socialism while he was alive.
44:46
So for all you, we're just going to be about the gospel people and we don't want to fight
44:49
the culture world's wars and we want to be known for what we what we're for, not what
44:52
we're against for all you people, then you are going anti what Charles Spurgeon, the prince
44:57
of preaching, would do and what's what he would say.
45:00
So I guess, Megan, in general, what are we supposed to do as concerned citizens or concerned
45:05
Christians about everything that you're talking about in this book?
45:08
Well, I'm so glad that you brought up that ending with Spurgeon because one of the things
45:13
we see from Spurgeon is in his sermons where he talks about socialism.
45:19
He was very clear that it wasn't because it was politics or he was taking aside and the
45:24
politics of his day, it was because socialism was presenting a rival gospel.
45:30
It was a counterfeit gospel that kind of looks a little like Christianity in that it's supposed
45:36
to address the needs of the poor and the needy.
45:40
And so in a way, it kind of sounded Christian and they would kind of use that language but
45:45
he understood immediately, this is a counterfeit gospel.
45:49
And what it is promising you is a life of envy and resentment and division.
45:55
And that's why Spurgeon spoke about it.
45:58
And I think when we look at these ideas today, one, we do need to have that discernment.
46:02
We need to be so saturated in Scripture that we know instantly when we hear these things
46:07
and that's not gospel.
46:09
We are Bereans and we know that doesn't align with this chapter and verse.
46:14
And then the other thing I think we need to do, if we had had some tough conversations
46:21
prior to 2019, 2020, those CRT COVID years that revealed so much, I don't think the
46:29
issues would have gotten as bad as they did, but it was like we had gotten into this period
46:34
where we saw any sort of conflict as unchristian.
46:38
It wasn't about how we have conflict, it was about you shouldn't have conflict.
46:42
And I don't think that's biblical.
46:44
I think we can look all through the New Testament and see the apostles, not just opposing the
46:51
churches under their care and telling them, hey, you have some false doctrine coming in,
46:55
but also each other.
46:56
We saw that with the Apostle Paul confronting Peter, bringing in legalism and Jewish law
47:01
and wanting to attach it to grace.
47:03
And so I think that's the model we have to follow.
47:06
And when we're in these churches, it doesn't mean that you have to be obnoxious or combative,
47:14
but when we see these things, we do need to speak up and address it and you need to say
47:18
to your pastor, hey, can I take you to coffee?
47:21
Can you help me explain and understand why we're doing this sermon series on systemic
47:28
racism?
47:29
Help me understand why we can't just view these issues differently given all of these
47:32
different factors that might be contributing to this.
47:36
By the same token, I think we have to recognize that we do live in an era where we have to
47:41
be really, really discerning.
47:44
So churches, when you're bringing in curriculum, you need to look at who's behind it and you
47:49
need to ask questions about, okay, who is funding this thing?
47:53
Who are you partnering with to do this?
47:55
Because part of what I saw so frequently when I was working on this book is that some well-meaning
48:00
pastors would have a friend who was connected to one of these left-wing funded organizations
48:07
and they would come to them with a general statement of principles, something that any
48:10
of us would agree on, whether it was immigration or climate change, and it would be something
48:15
general, like we want to take care of the earth or we believe that every human being,
48:21
whether they have entered the country legally or illegally is made in the image of God and
48:24
that we want to spread the gospel to them, these are all things that we all agree with.
48:29
And so these people would lend their names to these general statements.
48:33
And then those general statements would be used to do something very specific politically
48:38
and very debatable politically.
48:40
So that's the other thing is I do want to tell pastors, you can't rely on that friend
48:45
or ship network anymore to just figure, I'm good, I know this guy, he's a good guy, I'm
48:49
going to go ahead and sign this piece of paper.
48:50
And that's great, I'll just, you know, I'll lend my credibility and my name to this organization.
48:56
I certainly think it's a time for discernment and there's a time for the flock to be dysputatious
49:00
and there should be some of those litmus tests, even recently, a buddy of mine went to a church
49:04
and they had a woman come and preach on a Sunday to the entire congregation and he just
49:11
tried to ignore that because he really, really liked the church and the advice another pastor
49:14
gave us.
49:15
Man, you need to sit down with a pastor and get an idea as to why they came to that conclusion.
49:20
And depending upon their answer, it's like, hey, they might be a little bit more egalitarian
49:23
as opposed to complimentary and maybe they've got a reason for it.
49:25
But then you also have to be discerning because you're not going to have to give an account
49:29
someday for how well you were a member of that church.
49:32
However, you are going to have to give an account someday for how well you shepherded
49:35
your own home, how you performed headship over your wife and your children and all that.
49:39
And so if you're exposing them to things like that, that may have just been a one off
49:43
kind of random thing or that is, you know, Satan's foot wedged into the door and he might
49:49
be like, you know, getting through at some point.
49:50
And so we're running out of time here.
49:52
So we're going to go to the last question.
49:53
So some people might read this book and be like, great, Megan, you gave me a bunch of
49:57
information on pastors, I should market avoid and all these horrible, evil, terrible, stupid
50:02
men and all these things and whatever.
50:03
So they're like, well, crap, who am I supposed to listen to now?
50:05
Whose books am I supposed to read?
50:07
And so from your perspective, who are the pastors that you personally like, the ones that you
50:12
read, you listen to, the ones that you support, that you would suggest to my audience that
50:15
they should as well.
50:17
Oh, gosh, I mean, I have so many people that I listen to on a regular basis, Jay Mac is
50:22
my bro.
50:23
I love John MacArthur.
50:24
I listen to him a ton.
50:26
I like Bodie Baca.
50:27
I like Paul washer.
50:29
I like Joe Rigny.
50:32
So I mean, there's just so many.
50:33
I love my pastor.
50:34
If you're look, if you go to Lee Park, Chris Justice has a we are, we have an app I know
50:39
because whenever I miss church, I listen to it so, you know, so many, but that's the
50:44
big thing I want to say too is that look, there are many, many, many, many, many faithful,
50:49
doctrinally sound men of God out there who are leading and I try to stress that I am
50:55
not trying to tear down the church.
50:56
I want to build up the church and I want these good Godly men leading.
51:01
And so that's why, you know, these are the guys I listen to and I want to see a field
51:06
just like them for the next generation, because sometimes you worry what's going to happen
51:10
when some of these older guys go.
51:12
But we know that God doesn't leave himself without a witness.
51:14
So there will be a next generation of good Godly guys stepping up.
51:18
And yeah, so I mean, those are some that I listen to, but people should tell me too,
51:23
we need a resource to go who are the people that you're constantly, you know, feeding yourself
51:27
with.
51:28
Yeah, the one, the one that I would give you, which won't be shocked anybody because they're
51:31
such good friends.
51:32
Every Martin out of Florida, he is the example of somebody who runs a huge multi site church
51:39
that actually cares about the discipleship and actually cares about like literally putting
51:44
their money where their mouth is on the abortion issue, on the homelessness issue, on, you
51:49
know, first responders on the elderly.
51:52
So when people talk about being pro life from womb to tomb, there are churches that are
51:55
out there that are hidden grandslams on a regular basis in the church of 1122 down there
51:59
in Florida, certainly doing that.
52:01
And Megan, we've gone everywhere in this conversation, not as deep as I wanted to go.
52:04
But hey, this isn't the Joe Rogan experience.
52:05
I didn't have three hours.
52:06
So I just did my best.
52:07
But that's all for me.
52:08
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
52:10
No, that was awesome.
52:12
Thank you and apologize that I'm sick.
52:13
So judge it with a grain of salt.
52:16
Hey, the last thing that any one of my audiences is going to care about, they've heard me clicking
52:20
around, cough drops in my mouth.
52:22
They've heard me taking water breaks and coughing in the mic.
52:25
They are certainly used to it.
52:26
Megan, thank you so much for coming on.
52:27
Best of luck to you.
52:28
Thanks for having me.
52:30
There you go, guys.
52:31
I hope you enjoyed my time with Megan.
52:32
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
52:34
Adam Donald's life or mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that
52:37
forges spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
52:40
So I've got these links for you today.
52:41
I've got the Amazon link shepherds for sale, how evangelical leaders traded the truth for
52:46
a leftist agenda.
52:47
And then I've got a link here to Megan's website and a link to all of Megan's work for the
52:51
daily wire.
52:52
Thank you for listening to this podcast.
52:53
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five-star
52:57
review.
52:58
And come speak live at your event or on your podcast to shoot me an email to info@undonton.life.
53:03
That's iNFO@undonton.life.
53:05
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,
53:08
including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
53:11
Just go to www.undonton.life.
53:14
And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for
53:17
our content.
53:18
The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album
53:22
on Face Down Records.
53:23
The links are in the description.
53:25
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
53:27
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
53:34
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
53:57
[end]