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This is Undaunted Life a Man's Podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it.
0:56
All right, guys. We've got a very special guest on the podcast today. His name is Max Lucado.
1:00
So he is a pastor, speaker, and literally one of the most prolific and successful Christian authors
1:05
of all time. He's written or contributed to well over a hundred books since 1985, and his books
1:13
guys have sold more than a hundred and fifty million copies. And they've been printed in 50
1:19
languages, over 50 languages. It's just an absolute... His career has been absolutely insane. I'll just
1:25
tell you, I can still remember and I will never forget how early on in this podcast, guys,
1:31
how I was just thrilled when anyone would come on the show, right? It was a one-to-one ratio of
1:37
people that I would want to come on the show or people that were pitched to come on the show
1:40
and the people that came on. And now it's very different. We're looking at... I'll get 25-ish
1:45
pitches for every one person I'll accept onto the show. But his team reached out to us last week,
1:50
and we're like, "Hey, we've got a tight window here. We recorded this several months before it came
1:55
out because that's how tight his windows are with his writing and his pastoral work and everything
1:58
else." And it was just the easiest, yes. Like, of course, we'll do what we can to make this happen.
2:04
But it was such a pleasure to talk to Max because not only you're just going to feel like... I guess
2:09
he's been called America's Pastry. He feels that way. He feels like he could just be your dad or your
2:13
grandpa, like just very encouraging, very, very positive. And we really did hit it off. But we
2:18
started out by talking about the fact that he got his first tattoo at the age of 70. Okay, so
2:22
that kind of gets you into the conversation as to what in the world were you thinking,
2:24
"No tattoos for 70 years, and here you go and get one. Love a story as to why." Then we talked
2:29
about, "Hey, why did you become a writer? How did you kind of go that direction? How do you
2:34
approach a kid's audience?" Because he's written kids of books versus an adult audience and what
2:38
that looks like. And really overall, why do that and be a pastor? Because you can just go and write
2:45
books and stay in your library or your office and just write your books. But he is still a pastor.
2:50
He's been a pastor for decades. Why is he doing that in addition to what he's doing here? But then
2:54
I talked to him about the same question you've heard me ask a lot this year about, "Hey, do you
2:57
feel like there's a coming capital A awakening? We see the cracks of the foundation of New Atheism,
3:04
we see prominent people coming to Christ. What do you feel like is happening? I love this answer
3:08
there." And also I talked to him about the state of manhood in the church and what he's noticed
3:12
over the last 50 years of being a Christian and over the last several decades of being a professional
3:16
Christian, what that looks like. And then we get into his brand new book. It's kind of weird talking
3:20
about a guy that's got literally over 100 books, but this is his newest one. So it's called "Tame Your
3:25
Thoughts, Three Tools to Renew Your Mind and Transform Your Life." So why this book? Why it doesn't just
3:31
use Bible, but it also gets into neuroscience, cognitive science. We talk about UFOs. You guys
3:36
have to stick around and know exactly what we're talking about there. But even when we got into
3:40
just this victimhood mindset that is currency in our modern age and how we should view that,
3:45
but then at the end I asked him. And this is a crazy thing because I've asked a similar question
3:49
or at least a derivative of it to a lot of different people, whether they're in music or whatever.
3:53
But since he's such a prolific author, I was like, okay, what is the one book? If we had to
3:59
erase your entire catalog of books and there was one book that was left to humanity for us to
4:04
remember you by, what would that book be? So you have to stick around till the end to get that
4:08
answer. So guys, I'm not going to keep Max from you any longer. So without further ado,
4:11
let's get into it. Max Lucado, welcome to a Dawn of Life of Man's podcast.
4:16
Oh my, I've been looking forward to this and congratulations on the wonderful impact that you
4:23
are having on the lives of men around the world through a variety of ways, especially this podcast.
4:29
It's really a treat. I've been looking forward to getting on the program with you. Thanks for
4:34
having me on. Well, gosh, I am thrilled to have you say that. Thank you so much for that. But
4:39
right from the jump here, we got to talk about something because, you know, we're recording this
4:42
a little bit before it comes out because this is coming out with the release of your new book,
4:46
which we'll certainly get to guys. It's in the show notes. You should definitely go check it out
4:50
and purchase it. But if you search your name right now, this time in history,
4:54
the headlines are you just got a tattoo on your arm and I think it's your first tattoo and you're
5:00
in your 70s. And I just got to say, Max, if all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do that
5:05
too? Come on, what's wrong with you? Can you see it there? I can see it to tell us die.
5:09
To tell us die. Yeah. Can I talk about it for just a second? Let's go. Absolutely.
5:14
So I came to faith when I was 20 years old, March 12, 1975, which is almost,
5:24
I got the tattoo almost to the day 50 years later, because I was a, you know, the short version of
5:32
my story is I was a true train off the tracks. I was way into courers and not into Christ. And
5:39
that was a misogynist. I was a racist. I was a fighter. I was a drunk. I was just a mess. And I
5:46
come from a family that battles alcoholism. I do not like to think where my life would have gone.
5:54
I had Christ not intervened. And the what I, my challenge, Colin said, I just didn't think God
6:01
could forgive a jerk like me. I just didn't think he could. I thought I was the exception to the rule.
6:06
But the other side of that is that I didn't have a plan B. I saw what alcoholism did to my older
6:13
brother, or I was seeing what it was doing. I remember as a youngster visiting aunts and uncles
6:19
and addiction facilities. And I wasn't bright, but I thought, man, if I don't, if I don't get help,
6:25
I'm going to be following that path. And so in March, I was a 20 year old and I went and heard a
6:32
guy preach who became a friend of mine later in life. And when he asked if anyone would like to
6:38
come forward and accept grace, well, iron chains couldn't have held me back. The truth is chains
6:45
had held me back, but mercy set them free. So to tell us, I is the Greek word for what Jesus
6:53
said on the cross just before he gave up his spirit when he said it is finished. And as you know,
7:00
it's a beautiful word. It has a variety of meanings. One of the meanings is paid in full, paid in
7:07
full, or it is paid. And I really believed that day in March, 1975 that my sins had been paid changed
7:16
my life forever, changed me forever. And so I commemorated by getting to tell us the tattooed
7:22
on my arm. And I've had a few arched eyebrows at the idea of a 70 year old pastor getting a tattoo.
7:30
But you know what? I don't care. I really don't. I'm at that stage of life where I can't wait to see
7:37
my savior in heaven. And anything I can do to thank him, I'm happy to do. And this really does prompt
7:44
a lot of conversations. People see it. Yeah. What is that? It looks like titleist. I've had a few
7:50
people said it looks like titleist. Big golf guy, huh? Yeah, I mean, you'd have to be fairly
7:56
extremely into golf to get a titleist tattoo on your farm. But no, I mean, so at this point,
8:01
you might as well just keep going. You might as well just start filling up your arms, you know,
8:05
filling up your chest and get something across your stomach. But no, you're absolutely right,
8:09
because I just started working on the sleeve here and I've got a portrait of Jesus on the outside.
8:14
I've got a representation of Golgotha and the Lamb of God on the inside, the three crosses,
8:18
the dove. And so like, I'm telling the story of the gospel on my arms. I mean, the artwork is
8:24
fantastic. Shout out to Dustin Yip in Oklahoma City. So the artwork is fantastic. So even if
8:28
you're just into art, you'll be attracted to it. And then on the right arm, we're going to be doing
8:32
more of like, you know, the Lamb of Earth. So we got Lamb of God here on the left, and then we're
8:35
going to have lying to Judah on the right to where it's like, Hey, guys, when he comes back,
8:38
he's going to have sore in his mouth, his eyes are going to be like fire. He's got a tattoo on his
8:41
leg and his robe is dipped in blood. And we don't know if it's the blood of the cross or the blood
8:45
of his enemies. So let's make sure we're on the right side of that ledger. So that's a great story,
8:50
a great way to start out. But but obviously for anyone in our audience that knows you,
8:53
they're going to be familiar with your name. Because if you've ever been within a mile of a
8:57
Christian bookstore, your name has been plastered all over in some way, shape or form, because you're
9:02
one of the most prolific writers in the history of Christendom at this point in terms of published
9:07
authors. And so the first thing is, is I can't get the internet or chat GPT to tell me how many
9:13
books you have written precisely. And so let's dispel with all the rumors and let's start there.
9:19
But then how do you go from, okay, a center that's saved by grace to now you're going to be a pro,
9:24
not just a writer, but actually a pro. You know, I don't know if I know the answer to that question.
9:30
I do know that this book that we're going to discuss is the 44th of a particular type of book
9:37
called adult nonfiction adult nonfiction trade book. So this, you know, it's kind of your more
9:44
traditional book. I know I've written 44 of those. But what I've also done is a variety of gift books.
9:51
I've edited several Bibles and a whole lot of children's books. I love writing. I love kids.
9:57
And I love stories. And so that's been the reason I've written a lot of children's books. So you'd
10:04
have to tally all those up. But the kind of the bread and butter are these adult nonfiction trade
10:10
books like the one we're discussing. And this is number 44. Nobody's more surprised than I am.
10:16
Really nobody. I think the advantage in being a great sinner is that grace just comes to life,
10:25
just comes to life. I've battled with a lot of things in my life, but I no longer have never
10:31
battled with the fear that God would not save me. Once I crossed that line, I have just felt the joy
10:38
in my heart that it is sealed to this day brings emotion to my voice to think that he would save a
10:45
sinner like me. I don't deserve it. I don't warrant it. My best work, if there's any,
10:51
does not add to my salvation. My worst works and there have been a bunch have not deducted from
10:58
my salvation because I truly believe it's God's work. It is finished. He did it for me.
11:03
Well, and Max, the thing is, is the better sinner you are, the more material you have
11:08
to use once you get saved. Because I tell people all the time and Max, perhaps you ran into this as
11:13
a pastor, there are people that have very exciting testimonies. Maybe they were like a navy seal,
11:18
they're getting shot at and all that kind of stuff and they see God while they're in a foxhole,
11:22
as it were. They've got the needle still left in the arm and the belt still wrapped around,
11:26
and then they hover over their body or have one of those experiences. But I've even encouraged
11:30
people that don't have that kind of testimony. You grew up in a pastor's house and maybe you
11:35
were going to a Wanna and memorizing scripture when you're five, six, seven years old, and then you
11:40
come to a saving grace and faith in Christ. Even at that age, it's like a boring testimony is okay,
11:47
too. Why? Because it's your testimony and your testimony is going to be something that can speak
11:51
to somebody else. I was telling the gentleman that I was coaching, like he was worried that
11:56
here he is in his fifties and he doesn't have an exciting testimony. And I remember he had a
11:59
couple of granddaughters and I said, Hey, bud, do you want your granddaughters have a boring
12:03
testimony or an exciting one? And he was just like, Oh my gosh, I want them to have a boring one.
12:08
I was like, yeah, why? He's like, well, because what would have to happen to a young girl for
12:13
to have an exciting testimony. It's like, yeah, some bad decisions or some evil things would
12:16
have to happen to them. Your testimony just is what it is. That's part of your story. It's up to
12:21
you to use it, right? And if your testimony is what a person might call non dramatic,
12:28
praise God for that, because you have been delivered from living in the mud of addiction
12:37
or the mud of rejection. You know, if you had a healthy upbringing, praise the Lord. That means
12:42
that you don't have some of the inner scars or the strongholds that many of us have had to develop
12:49
treat. And secondly, I would say, really, all our testimonies are dramatic. You know,
12:57
it's like salvation is when God says, OK, I need you to jump from the earth to the moon.
13:05
OK, that's salvation. We've got to do the impossible jump from the earth to the moon.
13:10
Kyle, you're in great shape and you're healthy and young. You could probably jump twice as high as I
13:16
could. But by comparison for how far we need to jump, both of us fall miserably short. And that's
13:23
that's the message of scripture that all have sinned and fall short of the grace of God.
13:29
Now, I may be able to jump only a foot in the air. You may jump five feet in the air,
13:34
but compared to the thousands of miles, we need to jump who cares who can jump higher.
13:40
Truth is we all need help. So all of our salvation stories in that sense are extremely dramatic
13:48
because the promise of the gospel is, and I know we say this all the time, we've got to say it over
13:53
and over because people don't get it. The gospel says done, done. Every other religion says do.
14:02
The gospel of Jesus Christ says it's done. It's done by Christ. It is finished. He has done the
14:07
work. We are saved by grace through faith, not by work, so that no one would boast. So it's done.
14:13
It's a done deal. And so we trust that. We rely upon that. And that changes a person's life.
14:20
It doesn't deliver me from doing good deeds. It changes my motivation for doing the good deeds.
14:27
I don't do good deeds in order to be saved. I do good deeds because I am saved.
14:31
I live in a relationship with God that he says, okay, now I'm going to fill you with the Spirit.
14:37
I'm going to cover you with grace. I'm going to hold you so you don't fall away.
14:41
And that frees me up to take risks, to love wildly, to go on great adventures in the name of God.
14:49
And so it's it is the greatest discovery of life. And that is the grace of Christ.
14:54
One, Max, our works are an outworking of the done-ness, right? Of the fact that it's been paid in full,
15:00
right? Because that's what we do because you're right. You just will never be able to run fast enough
15:06
or jump high enough to be able to get over the hurdles of our sin. Because whether you're a
15:10
seven year old little girl in a wana or you're a 50 year old murderer that's sitting on death row,
15:16
we're all black-hearted wretched sinners in need of a savior. And we can't get ourselves
15:21
into the presence of a holy and just father without the propitiation of our sin debt.
15:25
And so it's like, okay, once we can kind of operate, I'm remembering a story as I'm talking to you,
15:31
I was invited to speak at Lewisburg prison a couple of years back. And it's been one of the most
15:36
incredible experiences of my life because this this group of guys had kind of been forgotten.
15:43
No one had really come to visit them or speak and all that. I'm brought in and you weren't compelled
15:47
to come. You could just come if you wanted to. And whenever they were walking in to where we were
15:51
speaking, I just started shaking hands introducing myself. And like, I know that a lot of these guys
15:56
are murderers. A lot of these guys are rapists. A lot of some of these guys are pedophiles,
15:59
you know, armed robbers, drug dealers, like, you know, all those things. But I was just compelled
16:04
in that moment to say from the very beginning, I said, look, guys, y'all violated the laws of man.
16:10
That's why you have to stay here and I get to leave and go home. But all of us have violated
16:16
the laws of God. So in that way, we are brothers. So can we just dispel with this nonsense that I'm
16:21
somehow different or better than y'all? No, I just have a microphone attached to my face.
16:25
That's the only difference between us today. And I think we would all do well, especially
16:29
those of us who are not in prison or those of us who have maybe had a less dramatic testimony
16:34
to just remember where we could be if a few things broke one way or another. You know what I mean?
16:38
Isn't that what Paul told us to do to remember the situation you were in when God called you?
16:46
Never forget that. And you know, Paul never forgot, did he? He really never forgot. He would
16:53
present himself as the chief of sinners. You know, that's what his resume had. He said, I'm just
16:59
the chief of sinners. By God's grace, I am who I am. I believe that's the healthiest posture
17:06
in which to live life. And I've tried to do that myself. You know, the pastors, we can struggle
17:14
with egos. We can struggle thinking we are something special. And it does good to me to
17:20
introduce myself as I have in a few occasions. I say, hi, I'm Max. I'm a drunk. I'm a reformed
17:27
drunk. And it does kind of shock people. But I am. I am. And had Christ not done that miraculous
17:35
work in my life in March of 1975, I know my life would have been a disaster. Now he saved me
17:43
that day, but he's been transforming me every day. You know, salvation is a once and for all
17:51
accomplishment by God. Salvation is his work. Transformation or the bigger word
17:58
sanctification is that ongoing work in our lives day by day of being transformed, not being
18:05
conformed to the world, but being transformed by the renewal of our mind. And so that process is
18:11
going to, you know, go on until we're taken into the presence of Jesus, which I'm praying
18:17
is any day now. And so I bless on blessings on all that you're doing and all your audience.
18:25
Let's make this a day in which we let the Lord bring that transformative power into our lives.
18:30
Well, Max, I just don't know if we can even continue this conversation because you're a
18:33
reformed drunk. You've got a tattoo. Like, what's next? Like, what are we going to be doing after
18:37
this? I think we've got some issues. I do have an idea for a second tattoo. This will be the first
18:42
time I've ever said this out loud, except my wife. Somebody told me once, and you can test me on this,
18:48
somebody told me that you get one tattoo, you're going to want to 100%. I walked out of the tattoo
18:55
place. By the way, that's a funny story. I had to call another pastor in town who is Mr. Tattoo,
19:02
like I'm like, you are. And ask him, where do I go get a tattoo? And he was so funny. He was so
19:10
funny. And he met me at a place and eternal courage. You gave a shout out to your guy. I'll give a
19:19
shout out to the good people at eternal courage tattoos in San Antonio. And so I went and
19:25
Ed, the pastor who met me there said, now you're going to want to. Well, I said, no, I think once
19:31
enough, you know what? The next day, I had an idea for number two. Now, am I going to do it or not?
19:36
I don't know. But I got to get into Greek words. I'm not a scholar. I'm not trying to show off here.
19:42
I use every pot. I made a D in seminary in Greek. Okay, so I'm not showing off. But I do love words
19:50
in Greek words. And so this one is to tell us time. Now, when Jesus rose from the grave,
19:56
one time I made an Easter sermon out of the one word that the angel spoke when the angel said,
20:03
he is risen. He is risen. Can you imagine how that one statement changed the world? Well,
20:10
he is risen. Now, that's three words in English, but in Greek, it's E-G-E-R-T-H-E,
20:17
eggarthae, eggarthae. So I thought it'd be super cool to have paid in full on one arm,
20:24
eggarthae, or he is risen on the other. Now, I've never, I've not decided yet. I have to get
20:30
clearance from my bride of 44 years. She wouldn't care at all. But I'm thinking about it.
20:36
Well, guys, you heard it here first. He's definitely getting the other tattoo on his other arm. He
20:42
just said it as clear as day. No, but I will tell you it. Like I'll be getting tattooed in the
20:47
process of it. And you know, I've got about 80 hours total of tattoo work and you're seeing
20:51
80 hours. Yeah, like 20 minutes. Yeah. So it's a little, it's a little different, but like when
20:57
you're that far into it, it's like, well, I might as well keep going. But there's a place in Jerusalem
21:01
called, I think it's pronounced Razook's where it's, it's the oldest tattoo. I know exactly what
21:06
you're talking about. Yeah, it's an unbroken chain of families that have been doing these tattoos.
21:10
And for those of you in the eyes that don't know, they have these stamps, some of which are
21:13
six or 700 years old, where they're, they dip them in ink, they put it on your skin, and then
21:17
they tattoo it. And some of these stamps were used to tattoo the crusaders, right? That were
21:23
going to war in the, in the Holy Lands and things like that. And so there's several of those because
21:28
I hope to get to Jerusalem before too long. So getting the Jerusalem cross somewhere, or they've
21:32
got, you know, the archangel killing, killing the dragon killing Satan. There's a bunch of cool
21:37
ones like that. One thing that I'm curious for you, because you've already mentioned being a pastor.
21:41
So some people are like, okay, they know he has the author, they don't know you as a pastor though.
21:45
So I guess my question is, is why even do that? Because being a pastor, you're a shepherd,
21:50
a sheep or dumb, and you're constantly having to deal with dumb sheep and, you know, do that,
21:55
that kind of thing. Why not just sit in your office and write books and keep, you know,
21:59
getting published and doing all these things and work on your 45th, you know, nonfiction adult
22:04
content book and all those types of things. Why deal with all these dumb sheep?
22:07
I love the church. I really do. And I get, I hear people quite often make that comment. I'm a
22:14
Christian. I just don't like churches. And that does get to me just a bit because we recall the
22:21
church in the Bible is called the bride of Christ, the bride of Christ. I hope you never come to me
22:27
and say, Max, I like you, but I don't like your wife. That's not going to go very,
22:34
what's that old Merle Haggard song? That'll put you on the fighting side of me.
22:40
I love it. Yeah. And I know that nobody, I nobody, as a pastor, I fully get how the church can have
22:51
weaknesses and inconsistencies and struggles. But hey, the church is the place we go to serve,
22:57
not to be served. We go not as consumers, but as worshipers. And it's a place where we go to build
23:04
up other people, not just to be built up. So I feel like as a pastor, I get to do that. I get
23:11
to do that. I get to see great victories. I've been at our church since 1988. We've had good years.
23:18
We've had some really tough years or far from a perfect church. But I would say the joy in my life
23:24
is being a Christian, being married to a wonderful lady, and then also being a pastor or being a
23:30
husband and father, and then being a pastor. I love it. And I don't really know what else to say,
23:37
except I just find myself loving the church. It's what who crossed his loving. He's preparing us.
23:44
We're the bride of Christ to be being prepared to reign and rule with him for all eternity.
23:51
And so I would encourage anybody who's kind of kept the church at arm's length. Don't do that.
23:56
Do it out of obedience. Find a church. I find one close to your house where you can serve or
24:01
you can love or you can grow in faith. Go not to be entertained, but go to serve. It'll be a
24:07
life-changing step. Hey guys, real quick. Do you remember during the pandemic when you basically
24:12
couldn't get anything shipped to your house? All this manufacturing that was supposed to be taking
24:15
place in America had been shipped overseas, and you just didn't notice it. And I remember a bunch
24:19
of companies saying we're going to do everything we can to make sure that we bring manufacturing back
24:23
to America and almost none of them followed through on that promise. But for me and for all of us
24:28
here at Undaunted Life, I wanted to make sure that I partnered with an American company that
24:32
actually did want to prioritize American workers, their families, their communities,
24:36
and a company that would keep their word. And that's why I want to remind you that we are partnered
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with Origin. Origin is an apparel company based in Maine. And what do they make? They make the best
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24:51
also make jeans. Yes, they have stretchy jeans. They also have work jeans and boot cut jeans for
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24:59
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25:05
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25:43
I want to double click on that. Go to serve. So I've asked people before because they're like,
25:48
okay, where do you go to church? Okay, do you know of a church in my area? I was like, buddy,
25:52
I can't even name you the, I can't even name you all the churches in my town, much less one. And
25:57
who's this what's at Indiana? I don't know a church, but I tell them things to look for. Look,
26:02
look for people that expos it the word. Look for pastors that go verse by verse. Don't look for a
26:07
pastor that's doing a four week series and whatever they want to do it on. And then they kind of back
26:11
into the Bible so that, you know, they just basically sprinkle Bible verses over their TED talks so
26:16
they can keep their tax exempt status. It's like, don't do that. So if you leave entertained,
26:20
but it's like spiritual skittles to where like wears off before you even leave the parking lot.
26:24
But yeah, like don't go to the church that's going to serve your needs. Oh, well, the music's
26:29
not really my style. Oh, well, the pastor is kind of, you know, kind of does the same thing. He kind
26:33
of rinses repeats and Bob. Okay, is that a good place? That a good local body of believers that
26:38
your kids can grow up and mature that, you know, you got a body of believers that are going to help
26:42
them grow up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Are there people there that you can serve like,
26:46
is everyone on their own discipleship and sanctification journey? Or are people just coming to get their
26:51
coffee cookies and to be entertained? Like, those are some things to think about. But as a pastor,
26:56
Max, I'm wondering, I've asked this question of a lot of people this year, because there seems to
27:01
be something happening. And I don't know if a capital A awakening is coming, but you've got
27:08
Arden atheists that are converting to Christianity, like I on her, she Ali Russell brand. You have
27:14
West Huff going on the Joe Rogan experience that the biggest thing in media, and that immediately
27:19
becomes the most, the most viewed and most consumed Christian apologetics conversation in history.
27:26
You've got Richard Dawkins coming out and saying he's at least a cultural Christian.
27:31
You have intellectual giants like Jordan Peterson, who I don't think you could say that he is a
27:36
Christian, that he has pushed you out in in Jesus at this point. But he says that he believes that
27:41
Jesus was God and that Jesus actually was resurrected, stunning emissions, right? From, you know,
27:46
from basically a modern academician. And then there's just all these things that are kind of
27:51
happening. You have big time pastors that are giving false gospels that seem to kind of be
27:56
falling away and separating themselves off and becoming less relevant. You're having, you know,
28:01
the young men in the UK going to church in droves, because, you know, they look at the
28:05
undertates and they look at the four horsemen, a new atheism like, this isn't it. Like, this
28:09
isn't how I need to go. And so they're flocking back to churches, flocking back to the Bible.
28:13
For you as a pastor, what does this feel like? Because again, I was born in 1986. I can't
28:18
know what the trends have looked like for the last, you know, 50 years. I can only look in this
28:22
small period of time since my brain's been fully developed. But what are you saying?
28:26
I say it's unlike anything I've ever seen in my lifetime. It brings tears to my eyes to
28:32
think about your everything you've said is exactly true. And more and more, we're reading reports.
28:38
One was just out about a week ago in the New York Times, talking about the revival taking place
28:46
in the UK of all places, and that the United States, what's happening on college campuses,
28:53
reports of hundreds of baptisms taking place. It's super encouraging. It's a dream come true.
29:01
It's what we've been praying for. And I also agree with you. I think at the same time,
29:07
we're seeing some pastors, colleagues of mine who, for whatever reason, the curtain is being pulled
29:16
back on some activity that was not honoring Christ and not honoring God. We need to pray for our
29:21
pastors, especially our young pastors, that they don't follow that trend. And that's older guys that
29:26
we can finish strong and continue to reflect while the body of Christ. But the short answer to your
29:33
question, I would love to hear that two-minute summary again, all those milestones that you just
29:39
cited there. That's wonderful news. That's wonderful news. And may it be so. May we head in.
29:46
I think people are just aware of how empty life can be. How empty life can be.
29:55
You know, I read the other day that the 22% of teenagers have seriously contemplated suicide.
30:03
Yeah, 22%. What a tragedy. In a season of life that should be full of promise and joy.
30:10
What am I going to be when I grow up? Who am I going to marry? Am I going to play sports?
30:14
You know, full of possibility. One out of five have seriously considered orchestrating their own
30:20
departure. And so that's sad. It's just heartbreaking. And I think the message is that people are
30:28
realizing that the society just doesn't deliver. Just doesn't deliver. All this talk about what
30:34
gender you are, what your sexual preference is, what's your, all the stuff we just kind of get into.
30:44
That's, that's a dead end. It's a dead end. We're crisis. Let's talk about your eternal life.
30:50
Let's talk about your eternal life. These brief and momentary troubles are not worth comparing
30:55
with the glory that far outweighs them all. Well, that activates joy and hope in someone's life.
31:01
And so I believe it's happening. May it be so. Well, and I think as well, I just recently had a
31:09
great conversation with an author of Happy Lies. And, you know, in this book, she's talking,
31:17
this is Melissa Doherty, she's talking about new thought and new age and some of these things.
31:22
And one of the, one of the most nefarious things about new thought, new age, some of those things,
31:26
is they actually work kind of. And it's, it's very similar to what Satan did to Jesus when he was
31:33
in the desert. He was quoting scripture to him, kind of, right? And then it all kind of goes back
31:40
to the garden where it's like, did God really say, did God really say that it's one man and one woman
31:45
for life, you know, and sex should only be in a covenant of marriage? Did God really say he
31:50
created us male and female and there's not really a spectrum in between in that we can't also become
31:55
furries? Like did God really say, and I feel like you've had a generation of people that were
32:00
marinated in the four horsemen of new atheism until they lived it out and they realized,
32:05
oh, well, this is nonsense. Like none of this is actually attached to anything. It's like having
32:09
your feet planted firmly in midair. Because if what's true for you isn't necessarily true for me,
32:15
well, when we're talking about capital T truth, whose truth wins yours or mine? And that's just not,
32:20
that's not a livable, workable thing. And I mentioned young men earlier, Max,
32:25
going back to the Bible, going back to the church, becoming more conservative in a political sense,
32:30
all that type of stuff. But that's what I've dedicated my life to is equipping men to push
32:35
back darkness. Okay, so they got to be able to recognize darkness and then they need to be ready,
32:40
they need to be equipped, they need to be trained to push that back spiritually, mentally and physically.
32:44
But I've lamented what the church has done in terms of tough guys. It seems like the church,
32:52
the music bins way more feminine, you have a lot of churches that love to talk about grace and the
32:56
lamb of God. And they avoid truth in the line of Judah. They avoid doing things that speak to the
33:03
virile testosterone filled masculine soul as they cater to women, children, the elderly,
33:10
and men that being a little bit softer. That's why he even got into this, this game of trying to
33:16
figure out how we can make sure tough guys don't miss out on Christ. And I'm not saying I'm usurping
33:21
the Holy Spirit guys don't hear what I'm don't hear it was something that I'm not actually saying.
33:25
But for you over your career, and even over the 50 years of being a Christian, how do you feel
33:30
like the church writ large has handled masculinity, manhood, and ushering boys into that?
33:37
What a fascinating question.
33:40
My mind is going two or three different directions. I'm trying to direct traffic here.
33:50
Let's explore all the roads. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. I was super involved in the promise keeper's
33:57
movement of the 1970s. And at the same time, I was involved, I was an adherent to what was called
34:07
a seeker sensitive church. Do those phrases right reconcile with you? That's going to resonate
34:14
with the whole audience. Yes. Okay. So seeker sensitive was a movement that said, let's
34:21
speak to felt needs. Let's speak to felt needs.
34:23
Because the people who are walking in off the street, they don't embrace scripture as the
34:30
authoritative word. So let's access their hearts through speaking to felt needs. I think there's
34:34
some real value in that. Like any other thing, we many, I'll go ahead and say this, many of us.
34:43
I'll put my name in there. I think I went too far in it. To the point where I wasn't opening
34:50
scripture first, I was opening with a felt need first. So I didn't help people see that the authority
34:57
for scripture for dealing with these felt needs is scripture. Now, couple that with my interaction
35:04
with promise keepers, promise keepers helped me a lot. Promise keepers. The very first event I went
35:11
to was a Texas stadium in the Dallas area. And I remember Mike Silva was who's in a wonderful
35:19
evangelist spoke on Friday night. And from my seeker sensitive perspective, I thought, okay,
35:25
we're going to be here Friday night all day Saturday. At the end of Saturday, we'll give an
35:30
altar call. We'll warm people up. Mike did just the opposite. His message was you're a sinner,
35:37
you need a savior. And within 10 minutes, he had opened the altar and guys who had just gotten
35:43
off work driven to Texas stadium from probably far away as Edmond, Oklahoma and San Antonio, Texas,
35:49
they flooded the, they flooded the altar. And I learned a lesson through promise keepers. And that
35:56
is men need clear, a clear invitation. They need the truth. They don't need me to package it,
36:05
prepackage it, soften it, put perfume on it. Men just want to know, men want to know we're sinners,
36:12
we need a savior. We can't save ourselves. And how do I say yes? How do I get in?
36:17
So I don't know if I have a great answer to the question, how has the church done it? But as I look
36:23
back to my formative experience as a pastor, promise keepers taught me that men need a clear
36:30
articulation of the gospel. And they don't need to be, that doesn't need to be wrapped in ribbons.
36:39
It just needs to be clear. And we're doing that now in our church. It's been a great,
36:44
that was a lesson we learned. In fact, what we say here in our church is, we're going to tell,
36:49
we're going to make it hard for you to be a Christian. We're going to tell you all the
36:52
things that are going to be tough about being a Christian. And then at the end of my sermon,
36:56
if you want to be a Christian, you stand up right here in front of everybody. We make it real clear,
37:01
real bold, very, very straightforward. And we're seeing we had 75 baptisms on Easter Sunday alone.
37:10
And so we're seeing so many people come to Christ every week. And I think we're
37:15
in that age, not just for men, but for everybody. It's time to be straightforward about the gospel
37:20
and let Jesus let the Holy Spirit do His work.
37:23
When it almost feels like I've said this before, it's like everybody wants gospel plus. It's the
37:27
gospel. But for $9.99 a month, you get that you get all these extra things and all it's like, no,
37:31
no, no, like you don't need to make the gospel any sweeter. There's nothing sweeter than the gospel.
37:36
And so it's like, you mentioned not wrapping your message in ribbons. Well, we don't want to
37:40
wrap it in mud and dirt and whiskey either, because that's kind of the other side where people go full
37:45
aggro. And everything is about, you know, the size of their biceps and how dirty their truck is,
37:50
because they just got back from off-roading or whatever. And it's like, that's not manhood either.
37:54
And kind of the thing that I've seen, Max, is guys are putting their faith in their preparedness,
37:58
because it's this Western idealized stoic male that, you know, they know how to shoot,
38:05
they know how to fight, they know how to take care of somebody that's wounded. They've got,
38:09
you know, buckets of food and their basement and they've got, you know, sun panels and all the
38:13
stuff. They got all that figured out. And that's one thing I love to tell those guys is like, guys,
38:18
I'm pro all that. I think you should know how to fight. I think you should know how to care for
38:21
somebody that's got a minor injury. I think all that stuff's great. But if you don't have Christ,
38:26
then you're just a chimp, right? And some other chimp that's going to be stronger or smarter than
38:32
you is going to just take all your stuff at some point, right? Because your days are numbered,
38:37
and it's like you did all this preparation for this life, but none for the next one. And so it's
38:42
like, as good as that is, as pros I am and all that, you might want to seek your creator as
38:47
opposed to seeking his creation. And so that's just a slightly, slightly different thing.
38:51
But I guess we should go ahead and transition into the main reason that you're on the show today,
38:55
because I don't know if you guys know this, but Max is an author. So he writes books every now,
38:59
and then it's kind of like his thing. But you got a new book out, which guys, if you're listening
39:02
this on time, it is out now it is available. You can pick it up for yourself. It's in the show notes,
39:06
tame your thoughts, three tools to renew your mind and transform your life. So let's just start
39:12
generically 30,000 foot view. Why this book? Why now? Why you statistics? We mentioned to mention
39:18
them earlier, just in passing. But one out of every five teenagers has contemplated suicide
39:26
seriously over the last prior in the months prior to the interview, I mean, to that survey.
39:32
42% of adults live in a perpetual state of anxiety or sorrow, which is to go
39:42
right down the line. At the same time, we are seeing great hope of revival. We are being also
39:49
brought face to face with the fact that our thoughts are sucking us under. They're just sucking us
39:54
under. I believe when a person becomes a believer that God gives them what scripture calls the helmet
40:01
of salvation. We talk often about the Ephesians 6 full armor of God. And one of those pieces of
40:08
armor is a helmet. A helmet of, I played football in high school. It's been forever, but you would
40:14
never get me out on the field without a helmet because I would be carried off the field on a
40:19
stretcher. We all need a helmet of salvation. Isn't that interesting that the helmet is called
40:25
salvation? To me that says God saves. He redeems the mind. He redeems the mind. In the key passage
40:34
here in Romans 12 and verse 2, do not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewal
40:42
of your mind. And so this particular book explores how can I allow God day by day to not just save
40:51
me, but transform me through the renewal of my mind. And we as men know that our thoughts,
40:59
you know, we have 70,000 thoughts a day, according to the Cleveland Clinic, 70,000 thoughts a day.
41:05
And according to that same study, four out of five of those thoughts are negative or critical,
41:11
where we're being critical of ourselves or negative about the world. Four out of five. That's tragic.
41:17
That means our minds are being consumed by toxic thinking. Well, God will help you on this. You
41:25
don't have to. He can he can allow you not to be conformed to the world, but be transformed
41:31
by the work of the Holy Spirit in the renewal of your mind. And that's what this particular book is
41:36
all about. When even as you were talking about the helmet of salvation, I saw recently somebody was
41:42
doing an interview with Michael Knowles on the daily wire and it was around Easter time. And so
41:46
we all know about the typical crown of thorns and, you know, acacia thorns because we've seen bad
41:52
representations of that, but acacia thorns can be two, three, four inches long. But this person
41:57
had it not just as like a headband crown, but like a helmet crown. And I immediately they're like,
42:03
this is literally what what it could have looked like. This is what the Roman soldiers could have
42:07
fashioned onto Jesus's head. And it was more of a of a helmet look, right? Kind of the old school
42:12
crown that basically covered the entire top of the head. So all that's connected as well.
42:17
One thing I was struck by with the book, because I know some people get a little nervous
42:22
anytime you stray outside of the Bible for anything. And so if you're trying to understand something
42:26
scientifically, people are like, Nope, just read the Bible. And it says what it says. Earth is
42:30
6000 years old. If you don't believe that you're going straight to hell and you die, don't do that.
42:34
Like, and so we don't like going into other fields because this book you get you dig into
42:39
cognitive science neuroscience. And people are going to be like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
42:43
That's not biblical. That's not straight Bible. Like I can't, you know, take that all the way back to
42:47
the original Greek Hebrew or Aramaic transcripts or manuscripts. So you can't do that, right? It's
42:52
outside. It's outside of this world. Whereas I'm more of a guy that's like, no, these different fields
42:57
like neuroscience or biology or chemistry, that's giving us insight into how God's doing it and how
43:02
God did it and how God created it. So it just doesn't bother me that much. But it does bother
43:06
a lot of people. So for you, why do you even go into some of those areas in this book?
43:10
I think that's a very good point and a very fair question. If we ever use
43:17
science more than we use scripture, we're off balance. But when we use scripture and find,
43:23
oh, science is authenticating. It's just giving modern language to what God is doing. I think
43:30
that's very healthy. A fancy word that is we're hearing a lot these days is neuroplasticity.
43:38
Right. You know, that forever people thought that the brain is the brain is formed and it can't
43:42
be changed. And that's been debunked. We realize now that our brains can be changed for the better
43:51
or for the worse. And that as we practice thinking in certain ways, our brains are more like malleable
43:59
putty and fresh ruts. I don't really like that word, but that's what neuroscientists say.
44:05
There are ruts that are created in our brain that create either healthy or unhealthy habits.
44:11
Well, that tells me that Romans 12, too, just has some new scientific language. Do not be
44:16
conformed to the world, but be transformed. So God is in the business of transforming our minds,
44:24
be transformed by the renewal of your mind. 2 Corinthians 10, take every thought captive,
44:32
every thought captive. We learn to exercise stringent control over what we think. Well,
44:38
behavioral scientists are telling people that, but the Apostle Paul was saying that 2,000 years
44:43
ago. So I think sometimes it's helpful to use this research never to take the place of the scripture,
44:50
but just authenticate what scripture is already teaching us.
44:53
That's right. Same thing with, you know, you have our biblical archaeology where it's confirming,
44:59
oh, yes, indeed, this people group did exist at this time period in this area, even though we
45:03
didn't know that until modernity or something like that. But here in this in this episode,
45:08
we've already talked about tattoos, drunkenness. But now we got to talk about UFOs, apparently,
45:13
because if you read through the book, guys, Max talks about UFOs, you might be shocked to find
45:18
out. So when you say you have so UFO, what do you mean? You're the best, man. I love interviewing with
45:24
you. Yeah. So there are three tools that I've developed as a pastor to help people learn to
45:35
manage their thoughts. And UFO is the second one. So let me give you the first one, because the
45:39
sequence matters. First one is picky thinking, just because you have a thought, you don't have to think
45:44
it. And people say, well, of course, that's true. Well, you know what? I've been stunned. How many
45:49
people will use phrases like, well, my mind wandered or this thought came in a be careful, be careful,
45:56
because Satan is all about depositing ideas in our minds that are dangerous, that are dangerous.
46:04
Did you know there's a scripture in John 13 and verse two, my Bible is open here. Jesus and his
46:10
disciples were eating supper and the devil had already put an idea into the mind of Judas Iscariot,
46:18
Simon's son. So Satan put this idea into the unguarded mind of Judas. And that's just an example. We could
46:26
unpack several in scripture of how Satan loves to deposit ideas in our mind. And so first, practice
46:34
picky thinking, just because you have a thought, you don't have to think it. In many ways, being a
46:40
disciple is simply someone who is submitting their thought process to God. Then the idea number two,
46:47
or tool number two is one you referred to, UFOs. This refers to the sequence of thoughts. And
46:54
untruth becomes a false narrative that leads to an overreaction. And untruth, here's an untruth.
47:02
I have to have a lot of money to be happy. That's a lie. That's a lie. But it is a pervasive thought
47:10
in the world. So if you believe that untruth, that's going to lead to a false narrative.
47:15
Get all I can, can all I get. I've got to go into debt to buy whatever I have got to show off. And
47:22
that leads to an overreaction. Either I'm not any good because I don't have much or I'm the best
47:28
in the world because I have a lot. It just leads to an overreaction. Typically, when we're trying to
47:34
help people, we find ourselves dealing with the overreaction without tracing it back to the untruth
47:41
that gave root to that false narrative that leads to the overreaction. So if I'm talking to one of
47:48
your listeners who's battling with, let's say guilt, guilt, I will try to help them find that
47:56
untruth that refuses to allow them to be released from a toxic thought pattern of guilt. What is
48:06
that untruth? I talk a lot about that in the book as well. And then the last one, uproot and replant.
48:12
My dad put me in charge of our yard when I was 12 years old, told me to get all the weeds out.
48:17
I took out the lawn mower and I cut them down a week later. They were back. I didn't know to get
48:23
a weed out. You've got to grab it by the roots. Many of the thought patterns that we deal with
48:28
have deep roots. And it's going to take a while, but we uproot those. We get serious by picky thinking,
48:35
by identifying the UFOs, we uproot them. And then we learn to replant, replant with scripture,
48:42
replant with truth. You rightly pointed out what Satan did with Jesus in the wilderness
48:48
temptation. He almost quoted scripture, but he was not accurately quoting scripture. Jesus, in
48:56
response quoted scripture, scripture was enough for him to face temptation. So if it was enough
49:02
for the Son of God, surely it's going to be enough for us as well. Of course, that presupposes,
49:07
we've got to get acquainted with the Bible. We've got to learn scripture. We've got to let that be
49:12
our go to for dealing with our emotions and our negative thought patterns. So that's the tools.
49:19
Those are the toolkit for the tame your thoughts project. Well, Max, let's dig in that to a little
49:24
bit further, because I remember hearing about a long time ago from someone like, okay, you're
49:28
going to be hearing whispers. But where are the whispers coming from? Are the whispers coming from
49:33
God, the Holy Spirit? Are they coming from the evil one? And you need to have a filter or some
49:39
sort of matrix of decision making to put the whisper through to come out on the back and like,
49:44
is this muck or is this a directive from my creator? Right? And so if you have the UFO that
49:50
you talked about, untrue false narrative overreaction, part of the problem is we don't have a biblical
49:58
foundation, because as Americans, we have Bibles, we have a stack of Bibles, but they have an inch
50:05
of dust on the top of them that we blow off when we walk in on Easter or when we walk in on Christmas
50:10
or something like that, or when grandma's coming over, because we want her to think we're actually
50:13
reading it. So we don't we have tangential understanding of Bible light stuff, right? It's Bible-ish,
50:23
but it's not Bible, right? And I just, you know, I've done things recently where I've tried to dispel
50:28
rumors about some of the most often cited, often incorrectly cited, verses about judge not less
50:34
ye be judged. Well, like, who was that for Jeremiah 29 11? Like, who do you think that promise was
50:38
for that was a promise for, you know, the exiles and Babylon at the time, that's not a promise for
50:43
you and your job today in Nashville. Like, and just when you're trying to like tell these people,
50:48
like, okay, I see that there's text there, but text without context is basically just stuff printed
50:53
on paper. But part of my thing, and you can tell me if you think I'm wrong, I don't think that we
50:59
actually believe it's the word of God. We don't actually believe that, because if we really believed
51:04
it as Christians or people that would call themselves Christians, we would read it. Because if I told
51:11
you, look, I've got this manual. I know you've been struggling a lot financially. I'm bringing
51:15
that up as an example, because you brought that up, Max. I know you're struggling a lot, John,
51:19
you've got, you know, you've been really, really struggling. Here's a book. It's long. It's a long
51:24
book or it's going to take you a while to get through it. But here's a plan where you can read
51:27
this book in a year. And at the end of the rainbow, you're going to know exactly what it takes
51:32
to be a mega millionaire, not just a millionaire, not just, you know, quiet and comfortable mega,
51:38
mega millionaire, the number of people that would treat that like the Bible and study every single
51:44
word and highlight and take notes and ask friends for their input would be astonishing.
51:49
But no, it's just the word of God revealed in scripture, you know, through dozens of authors
51:54
over a few thousand years. Ah, no big deal. I think I'll go watch Netflix. I just don't get it, Max.
51:59
You know, I agree with everything you're saying. And I liken that to not having a definitive,
52:10
authoritative voice, helping you make the decisions. God's word, the purpose of this scripture that
52:19
I'm holding up right here is to give us a definitive authoritative word that tells us where to go and
52:27
how to make decisions. I played catcher on the little league baseball team. I played catcher
52:32
on the middle school baseball team. I played catcher in the high school baseball team. I wish
52:37
I had been good enough to play catcher in college. I wasn't, but I still played on the intramural
52:42
team. I have squatted behind home plate for literally thousands of innings and caught hundreds of
52:48
thousands of pitches. And you know what I've observed? The size of home plate never changed.
52:54
That's right. Never did. Never did. I mean, strike zone may have changed,
52:59
that's right. Yeah. I couldn't turn to the empire and say, Hey, I need a narrower home plate for
53:06
this guy because he's really a good hitter. Or I couldn't walk to the plate with a bat in one hand
53:12
and a home plate in the other and say, I like this size home plate that what what made home plate
53:18
work is that it's the same. It's reliable. It does not change if you're in Dominican Republic,
53:24
if you're in Japan or if you're in Cuba, if you're in major league baseball, it does not change.
53:29
Dear brothers, let me tell you something. You need a home plate for your life. You need a home plate.
53:35
You don't need your authoritative voice in life for your home plate in life to be your locker room
53:42
buddy or to be a podcast or to be what you're feeling. You know, because that is unreliable.
53:50
A lady came to see me just the other day. She said, I really believe in heaven. And I think
53:55
it's when we're reincarnated into butterflies. I said, where did that come from? She said, well,
54:00
I don't know. I was just talking to so and so and so. And so her mind is all over the place.
54:06
Well, she doesn't have a home plate. And I really believe that in order for us to manage our thoughts,
54:13
we have to do what the scripture says. And that is take every thought captive
54:17
and present it before the throne of the king of kings and say, is this what you want me to believe
54:23
or is this what the world wants me to believe? Again, Romans 12 to don't be conformed to the world.
54:29
Don't let society conform you or press you into a mold, but be transformed by the renewal of your
54:35
mind. And the tool that the Bible uses to transform our minds is right here is scripture. And scripture
54:42
says that it is the unchangeable, unerring word of God. And we can trust it for all that is good
54:51
and for all that is right. Well, you're absolutely right, Max. And as you're quoting their second
54:55
Corinthians 10 five, me memorizing that verse got me beyond my addiction to pornography and
55:03
masturbation. I've talked about this a lot on the show. That was 12, 13 years ago now. But what I
55:07
would do is when I was tempted, right, to do what I had normally done, which was to slate my lust,
55:13
which was attached to some sort of insecurity somewhere in my psyche, blah, blah, blah, all that
55:17
cycle, Bible, I would just quote that scripture, right? You know, we demolish arguments in every
55:22
pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. We take every thought captive and make
55:26
it accountable to Christ. And I know it's kind of curt, but basically I'm sexually aroused. And here I
55:32
am just reading scripture over and over and over until the arousal goes away. And don't you know it
55:38
works. And then I had accountability and I had all the things. But at some point, I just had to take
55:42
those thoughts to scripture. Now you mentioned being a catcher, I just got no because I'm a baseball
55:47
guy. Who's your favorite catcher of all time? Not not the best catcher of all time. Who's your
55:51
favorite max? Yeah, it would be a toss up between Pudge and Johnny Bench. Johnny Bench is the old
55:57
name. Of course, Pudge is becoming an older name, right? Right. Yeah. But those those two, I think
56:04
were great. Yeah, Ivan Rodriguez was my favorite when I was a kid. And then as a Cardinals fan, I
56:09
have to say yachty or Molina just being able to watch him and the stuff he was was able to do
56:13
behind the plate. He was an absolute wizard. Well, there's there's a quote from the book
56:17
that I thought was interesting, especially considering our time in culture. And you basically say you
56:22
are not a victim of your thoughts. Well, Max, I've been reliably informed by dorks on the internet
56:27
that victimhood is currency. That if you are a victim, if you can somehow place yourself in the
56:33
victimhood hierarchy, that that not only makes you write in all arguments, but it means that I
56:37
should somehow use my tax dollars to serve you and all of your needs regardless of your decision-making.
56:43
And so why, why do you go into that idea of like, okay, you're, you're not a victim of your thoughts,
56:48
like kind of trying to almost get us out of this victimhood mindset.
56:52
Well, the victimhood mindset says that I actually have no power. I have no,
56:59
have no power over the kind of person that I've become. I am controlled. I am victim. I am
57:06
subjugated to powers that are greater than me. The great news of the gospel is not just that Jesus
57:12
saves me from my sins, but that he, he positions me in the highest place. I have been raised with
57:20
Christ, the scripture says, and I am seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Spiritually speaking,
57:27
call my, I'm, I'm not in San Antonio, Texas. I'm in heaven and I have authority and I'm being
57:34
equipped to reign and rule with Christ. I believe in a thousand year reign and then ultimately
57:40
for eternity and we're, we're all being equipped. If you want to know how our story ends, we go back
57:47
to the beginning. We look at the Garden of Eden and we see there's Adam and Eve raining and ruling
57:51
over creation without shame, without fear, perfect harmony with God, perfect harmony with one another.
57:57
The victimhood mindset says, well, I don't have any future. I don't have any destination.
58:03
That's just hogwash. Nothing empowers people more than the promise that we are being equipped
58:09
by God for a holy assignment. And so enough of this victimhood stuff. My, my victimhood is long
58:17
gone. I have authority by God's power over the desires of my life. Thanks for your good word,
58:23
our honest word about struggles with pornography and lust. I have a good chapter, I think, in the book
58:28
on taming those thoughts as well, because that's what you're, you're not the victim here. You're
58:33
going to have to take some steps. It may not be easy. It may not take, it may take some time,
58:37
but believe in the God who believes in you because he has great power and he gives that power into
58:43
your life. Well, Max, even as I'm going through the content of taming your thoughts and knowing
58:48
about just the long career that you've had, I'm just curious for you, because, you know,
58:53
there's a gal that works with the Daily Wire that says, you know, she found out I was going to be
58:56
interviewing you today and she was so excited because you are special. It's her favorite book.
59:01
And it's a children's book that she found as an adult, but for her and how she put it,
59:06
it's, it's kind of the, I don't want to speak for, but it's like the first time where the gospel
59:10
resonated in a different way. And so now she gets out as a gift every time, you know, one of her
59:16
friends, it gets pregnant or has a kid or something like that. But for you, is it like two different
59:21
muscle groups when you're trying to write for, you know, an adult audience versus writing for
59:27
children? Or is it like, Hey, we're all supposed to have childlike faith? So there's through points
59:31
and elements of both. Like, how do you, you approach the two different audiences? Yeah,
59:37
Akala, I really hope I get to know you. You're such an interesting guy. Do you have a family? We've
59:43
never even had a conversation. Yes, I have a wife of now 16 years. And by the time this is released,
59:49
I'll have a five year old and three year old boy. And they're going to be the most toxically
59:53
masculine little boys. And I mean, the best, the best way possible those boys are going to be awesome.
59:58
That's great. Well, I'm a dad too. And I'm a granddad. And I found early on that the most
1:00:04
enjoyable time of the evenings was story time. Now, I may be of a different, you know, I'm a bit
1:00:11
nerdish. I've always loved stories. I really have. I've loved stories. I've read stories.
1:00:16
I've written stories long before I was saved. I was trying to write stories. And so I've had this
1:00:22
bent in me to be a storyteller. I think stories take great encouragement that our savior, Jesus,
1:00:30
always use the story to make a point because I love stories. So it only made sense when I started
1:00:36
having kids, when I became a dad, we have three daughters. When story time came, I would make
1:00:43
up stories for my kids. And all of my children's books began as stories for my kids. And we had a
1:00:50
game where I would start a story and then they would tell me the next thing, you know, I would say
1:00:57
once upon a time there's an elephant named Bobo. And Bobo went and I would stop. And we would take
1:01:03
turns and each of the kids would say, Bobo went and whoever's turned was would fill in that sentence.
1:01:09
Went to the grocery store and I'd say, okay, went to the grocery store and went Bobo. So I just,
1:01:14
we had this silly game. Out of that, just like all of my, all of my books come out of sermons,
1:01:20
all of my children's books, including the one you referenced, you are special. Come out of stories
1:01:25
that I made up for my kids. And now I'm making up for my grandkids. And so there's some, you know,
1:01:32
real life situations, I think that have given birth to some of the elements of my ministry. And
1:01:39
for that, I'm really, really grateful. Well, that's fantastic. Well, we're running short on
1:01:43
time. So I got a couple of lightning round questions for you. It's always like making people just a
1:01:47
little bit uncomfortable. It's kind of my thing. But as you look back over your career,
1:01:51
you've, you've got to know that at some point, you're looking at something, you're like, ah,
1:01:55
I wish I could get that one back. I wish I could have a do over. I wish I could just rewrite that
1:02:00
chapter or something like that. So if you had to point to a do over, if you could get a mulligan
1:02:06
on something that you've put out there, what would it be and why better senior pastor with my staff.
1:02:14
When I came to the church, there were three of us on staff, and then a week later, one of them
1:02:19
left. So where there were two, it's easy to manage one person. But as the church grew, Kyle, I did not
1:02:26
develop the muscle of being an effective team leader for our staff. There are, there is training
1:02:34
for that. And that does not come natural for me. I'm more of a, a full back than I am a quarterback.
1:02:41
And I could have done better looking back. We battled staff issues and I that's on me. It's on me.
1:02:47
I could have solved a lot of problems. If I had learned earlier how to develop strategy and mission
1:02:55
and job expectations and that kind of stuff, I just, by the time I realized I needed to know
1:03:00
it, I'd already made several messes. So I would do that over. Well, I appreciate you, you own
1:03:05
it up to that. But last question of the day, okay, and this one's going to make you super duper
1:03:09
uncomfortable because you've ridden somewhere in the neighborhood of 857 books at this point,
1:03:14
or whatever we've decided was earlier. But if you could only leave one book that you've written or
1:03:22
contributed to for humanity, so a thousand years from now, we look up Max Ocato and whatever the
1:03:28
internet looks like then. And this is the only thing that you are remembered for in history is
1:03:34
this one thing that you've written. What would it be and why? The book is called 3 16. I wrote it
1:03:41
about 20, I don't know, 22 years ago, I think it was some soon after 9 11. And it just takes the
1:03:50
greatest verse in the Bible for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that
1:03:55
whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. It takes that phrase by phrase,
1:04:01
it was my best effort at presenting the gospel. So I would pray that that book would be the one
1:04:10
that's still being read because the gospel, that's all that matters. Very good. And I certainly
1:04:15
co-sign and agree with that, but Max, we've weaved in and out of a lot of different subject matters.
1:04:18
I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, but that is all for me. Is there anything else you
1:04:22
want to get off your chest? Well, are you ever going to get one of those tattoos that started the
1:04:27
back of your neck and go all the way down your back down past your rear end onto your thighs?
1:04:32
Yeah, so that's kind of like a Yakuza bodysuit thing. Now most of my back is already covered.
1:04:38
I'm working on covering the limbs and then who knows, I might just start getting stuff put on my face.
1:04:43
You never know, Max, because you're thinking about one and then you you're obviously just like you
1:04:47
thinking about the next one. So I'm just following your lead here. I hope I'm setting a good example.
1:04:53
I think you're setting a fine example. Max, thank you so much for coming on.
1:04:57
All the very best to your friend. Thank you.
1:04:59
There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Max Lucado. But before I let you go,
1:05:03
we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Add and don't to life, our mission is equipping
1:05:06
men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:05:10
So as opposed to leaving like 150 links in the show notes to Amazon,
1:05:14
I'm just linking to Max's website because through there you can check out everything he's working on
1:05:19
and find his books. I would highly recommend you do so. Thank you for listening to this podcast,
1:05:23
wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review.
1:05:27
If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info
1:05:31
at undonton.life. That's I-N-F-O at undonton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook
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and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like
1:05:40
this coming your way. Just go to www.undonton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name
1:05:45
for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua,
1:05:50
which is off their self-titled debut album on Face Down Records. The links are in the description.
1:05:55
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness,
1:05:59
keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:06:20
[music]