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This is an indaunted life of man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into
0:55
it.
0:56
Our guys today, we have a special guest on the podcast. His name is Matty Montgomery and
0:59
he's actually a return guest. He was on episode 244 of this podcast. Had a great conversation
1:03
with him, but he is the founder and pastor of the Alter Fellowship in Johnson City,
1:06
Tennessee. He's also the author of a couple of books, Scary God and Lovely Things and
1:11
Ugly Places. And I, and most of you that know him or maybe know that name, is because
1:15
he spent a decade as the lead singer for a amazing band called For Today. And the reason
1:20
why they're amazing is because the music is amazing, but also they were truly Christians.
1:25
And so that was the thing about the Christian metal space. We actually talked about that
1:27
a little bit in this podcast is a lot of people were signing with Christian labels and playing
1:31
at Christian festivals and knowing the band were Christians. They just knew they could
1:33
make money. And so this was a band full of legitimate Christians. Matty obviously being
1:38
the lead singer was a legitimate Christian, but a very brutally heavy metal core band,
1:41
my favorite bands of all time. And this is a guide that has transitioned into being a
1:46
senior pastor. And we talk a lot about, you know, you go from being, you know, metal to
1:49
this itinerary preacher to, you know, going and leading a church. And we talk about the
1:53
struggles of leading a church and leading a church in a, I guess an election year and
1:57
different things like that. We also spent a lot of time talking about hunting, talking
2:01
about Christian music, talking about the altar. So that's the band that I've talked about
2:05
quite a bit. So I like Shane and Shane, and I like the altar music. And so that's the
2:09
house band for their church, but also they do record music and put it out in the Christian
2:12
space. And so we talk a lot about that. But then we spend some time talking about his
2:16
new devotionals. And so he's written some books, but he's going to be writing devotionals
2:20
that are going to be released. And he's got one coming out called back to the beginning.
2:24
And we talk about, okay, how does that help? Not only the people in your congregation,
2:27
but the people everywhere else. Matty's got a strong heart for men's ministry as well.
2:31
And so I always enjoy my time with him. So I'm not going to keep him from you any longer.
2:33
So without further ado, let's get into it.
2:36
Maddy Montgomery, it has been a while, but you are making your return appearance to
2:39
Undaunted Life of Man's podcast. How do you feel? I'm sure you're jacked.
2:43
I feel great, man. I've never, never felt better. I'm excited to be here.
2:46
Feel great. Look great. Again, I was hoping you'd bring out the leather vest, but you
2:49
know, we all have a, we all do. Is it underneath there? No, I thought you were going to stand
2:55
up and show you. Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's exactly what I thought was going to happen. I am mega
2:59
disappointed, but let's get into a subject matter that doesn't make me disappointed.
3:02
Let's talk hunting right out of the gate here because you have done some, and I know a lot
3:07
of pastors at hunt. There are other pastors that are like, oh, me, does murder, but nobody
3:10
believes them because they don't read the Bible. But for you, hunting is like a big part of
3:13
your life, but not just the act of hunting. And that's the thing that I like is I'm surrounded
3:18
by a lot of hunters, but I'm also surrounded by a lot of hunters that use the act of hunting
3:22
to get men into the outdoors to share the gospel with men, to bring men around a campfire
3:26
where they're, you know, they're not thinking about, you know, what their wife's mad at
3:30
them, uh, mad at them about today or what their boss has said or what's going on in
3:34
their business. And they can actually have an encounter with the, the, the true and living
3:38
and scary God, right? Um, and they, they do that with the nexus being hunting. And so
3:43
for you, I guess, have you gotten like pushback being a, a big pastor? That's also a big hunter,
3:50
and I guess how have you seen hunting basically aid in the ministry work that you do? Yeah,
3:55
uh, yeah, I've gotten some pushback. My comment section online is always so much fun whenever
4:01
I post a picture of, uh, of an animal. Um, but I think part of it is because I used to
4:06
be in the hardcore scene and in the hardcore scene, you have a lot of people that, that
4:10
are just like sort of blind compassion, you know, they see a dead animal and it's like,
4:14
oh, sad, right? And it makes them feel a feeling and they don't like that. And they saw it
4:19
on their timeline. So it's like, I've lost all respect for you, you know, unfollowed.
4:24
And, uh, you know, but frankly, it's like, um, life eats life. It's the way the world
4:31
works and there's, there's no way around it. Um, I mean, frankly, getting shot by a skilled
4:37
hunter is the best possible way to go for an animal in the wild. You know, the other options
4:42
are like starvation, disease, predation, um, you know, dehydration, you know, shot multiple
4:49
animals that are definitely in their last year of life because their teeth have been
4:52
worn down to nubs. So fully that they couldn't possibly have eaten for another, another whole
4:58
year. And so, you know, it's like, that's the goal. I think as hunters, you know, nobody,
5:04
nobody knows more intimately what it cost, um, that deer or that animal specifically,
5:13
uh, for the meat that we enjoy in the, the, you know, the wall decorations that we, um,
5:19
hang up, like nobody knows what it cost that animal more than the person who pulled the
5:22
trigger and actually watch as they took their last breath. It's like, I sit with these animals
5:27
in the moment that they die. Like that animal specifically means more to me than it will
5:32
ever mean to anyone else. And so yeah, man, it's there, there is some pushback, but none
5:37
of it, none of it holds any water. Um, but I would say, you know, for, for me, um, we
5:44
have, uh, I think done a, uh, and from my perspective, we've done a great disservice
5:49
in the church by telling men the best thing they can be as tame or safe or domesticated.
5:56
And it's, it's why when you walk into most churches around the United States, the women
6:01
and the children are engaged in prayer and worship. They're eager to hear what God is
6:04
saying and the men are standing in the back, you know, checking their watches and talking
6:08
about football scores. They're disinterested because they were tuned by God to be wild
6:13
to be untamed, to be dirty, to fight and to build and to explore and to discover. And
6:20
so to, to be able to get men out of the context of their sort of regular domestic life out
6:26
into the field, out into the bush, to get them dirty, chasing an animal around, shooting
6:31
guns, um, you know, sitting around the fire at night. I don't think there's any place
6:36
in the world that I feel closer to God than when I'm out, um, you know, in the bush on
6:41
a hunt with a group of men and we're sitting around the fire at the end of the night telling
6:44
stories about what went right that day or what went wrong that day, celebrating wins
6:48
and, you know, mourning our losses. And then, uh, and then, you know, that's the place where,
6:54
where guys who will never talk to you about their marriage might open up about that.
6:57
That's the place where guys, you know, share their heart about their fears, about their
7:01
insecurities about, you know, their struggles and their relationship with God or their relationship
7:06
to their family. And, uh, and so yeah, our church has launched, the church that I pastor
7:10
has launched a ministry called omega expeditions. And, uh, what omega does is multiple times
7:15
a year, we schedule and coordinate a hunt where we go, we bring men who are business,
7:21
you know, leaders, owners, ministry leaders and owners, just guys that want to come and
7:24
get this experience, fathers that want to bring sons or men that want to bring their
7:28
brothers or their friends, we get them together groups in smaller groups, like 15 to 25 men.
7:34
And, um, and we'll get together for three or four days. Uh, we did one just this last
7:38
year in Africa that was a week long. Uh, we're doing one, um, in May of 2024 in Texas, it's
7:45
going to be incredible. Um, and we're going to get together for a few days. We'll go hunt
7:49
during the day. We'll get together, do a devotional in the morning. We'll hunt during the day.
7:52
And then in the evening, we'll get around the fire and we'll spend time in worship. We'll
7:56
spend time in God's word. We'll spend time in conversation about what it actually means
8:00
to be men of God when we get back to our house after this hunt. So I'm excited about what
8:04
God does out in the wild and, uh, excited to be able to invite men to come and join me
8:09
out there. It's a big deal. I love that you talked about that. I was going to set you
8:12
up to talk about Omega as well because I'm, I'm part of several different groups of Christian
8:16
groups where hunting is kind of a center point. Another thing that I think it gives an opportunity
8:20
to guys to do, Matty is as men, I don't, well, I won't speak for all men. I'll speak for
8:25
me. I'm not always the most grateful, like right out of the gate, like when something
8:28
happens, I'm not always grateful. So, uh, I had this revelation in Sunday school this
8:34
past week. Last year, I had two vocal cord surgeries in between the two vocal cord surgeries.
8:40
There was the thought that I may never be able to talk above a whisper ever again because
8:44
the first surgery was not successful. And here we are like, I'm a professional speaker
8:49
and podcaster and it's like my, my, my weapon, uh, is not going to ever work again or my,
8:55
my instrument was not ever going to work again. And so I had said something last week and
9:01
I was like, God, I can't believe I said that. And then I immediately, it immediately hit
9:04
me, but I was able to say it. Like that's a miracle. Like I was so embarrassed that I
9:09
had said this thing, but then I was like, but God answered prayers and I have the miracle
9:13
of being able to speak my mind. The same thing happens with an animal, Matty. So one thing
9:19
that I do, whether I'm hunting alone or whether I'm hunting with a group of people because
9:22
you've, you've been there, you walk up to the animal by yourself because you're hunting
9:24
by yourself or you walk up with a group of guys, you know, after the animal has, has
9:28
expired. And before anyone lays a hand on the animal, before there's pictures taken,
9:33
before there's high fives, I say, Hey guys, I want to pray over this animal and give thanks
9:37
for, you know, for the sacrifice that it made. I mean, it didn't, you know, it was involuntary,
9:43
but like for the provision that God is giving to us because this animal is going to lead
9:49
to, to meet that is on my plate. That's on other families plates. Uh, when we give it
9:53
away and it's just a time to pause, to pause and think about how good God is that he provided
10:00
an animal that I was able to take a good shot where they died quickly. The sustenance that
10:06
will provide my body. The fact that God gave us taste buds by which we could even enjoy
10:11
the sustenance that comes from a deer or an elk or an oryx or whatever your thing is.
10:17
And that's the thing is the practice of gratitude is super missing and not just in men, just
10:22
in general, because we're constantly comparing ourselves to the people on Instagram. We're
10:26
comparing our white tail to what our buddy got last season during white tail season.
10:31
We're not as happy getting the biggest buck we've ever seen because our buddy got one
10:34
that's bigger as opposed to sitting there and being grateful. So I think it has something
10:38
to do with that as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there have been times that I have
10:43
had a really difficult hunt. There's a, I've got a Kate Buffalo, uh, hanging in my basement
10:48
that is, uh, we hunted that one buffalo for five days. It's a crazy story, but, um, you
10:54
know, at the end, I ended up shooting him about five minutes before last night on my last night
11:00
in Africa. Um, and just an incredible animal and an unbelievable hunt. Um, and, uh, man,
11:07
I stood over the body of that thing and just wept. It was like, I don't, you know, it's
11:13
rare that even in church, I'm, I'm overcome with that kind of gratitude. It's like, man,
11:18
God, you, you know, you orchestrated everything. I mean, for years to get me to this moment,
11:25
what an amazing experience, what an amazing moment, what an amazing blessing to the community.
11:30
This buffalo was actually, he'd been attacking people and destroying property. And it was
11:34
a, a problem animal. And so it was a relief and a blessing to the community to, to, to
11:40
harvest it. And so, you know, it's like this exercise and gratitude, I think is, is an
11:45
important one that people have said to me, Oh, you know, why don't you just go to the
11:48
grocery store and get me like everybody else? It's like, well, I don't know where that came
11:52
from. Yeah. I don't know where it came from. And that, well, and I don't want to outsource
11:57
the dirty part of that job, you know, to some person in a slaughterhouse, you know, middle
12:01
of nowhere somewhere, like I need to really understand what went into putting this food
12:08
on the, on the plate for my family. And, and, and so that we can have, I think, an appropriate
12:13
degree of gratitude about it.
12:16
When it certainly makes a difference whenever it's the meat that you just bought from the
12:20
store wrapped in cellophane that you never saw the animal's face versus an animal that
12:24
you've hunted that, you know, in some cases, you're hunting in it, you're hunting an animal
12:27
like that over multiple days, you kind of get to know the animal to a degree. I know
12:31
that's somewhat ethereal. I don't worry, guys, I'm not going all avatar here, but you do
12:35
create a connection with that animal. And, you know, it does lead to, to thankfulness.
12:39
And in addition to being thankful for hunting, I am thankful for the altar music. I'm going
12:44
to tell you that right now, Madi Montgomery, because I'll tell you one thing, I cannot
12:46
stand contemporary Christian music. It bothers me. It bothers me right down to my core of
12:50
my being, singing these homoerotic lyrics and a key that I can't hit where we do the
12:54
course 17 times and then the bridge and then the bridge and then the bridge and then the
12:57
course and then the bridge. And then we just do that over and over and over and over and
13:00
over again. And then I get, you know, super Christian people that tell me that if I don't
13:04
like contemporary Christian music, that somehow I'm not saved. Yes, there is a worship leader
13:08
in my city that said that directly to my face across the table from me. And I was like,
13:12
Mm, I don't think I'm going to let that one slide. But if I had to put my upper tier top
13:17
tier top echelon worship music on the planet earth, we've got Shane and Shane and we've
13:22
got the altar music. The only thing is that Shane and Shane has recorded about 4,824 songs
13:27
and the altar music is more like 14 or 15. So let's talk a little bit about the altar
13:32
music. Because I remember, I remember before y'all released that first album, right? You're
13:38
your only full length. That's that's out as of right now. You sent a few of the songs
13:42
to me beforehand that said, Hey, check this out. And I was like, wait a minute. This is
13:47
like, this is different. Like the lyrical content had some, some depth and some girth
13:51
to it. But also like the banjo in the background, it's more kind of blue grassy, which fits
13:56
with kind of where you're at in the country and all things like that. But it's just such
13:59
a unique thing in the Christian space. So again, we'll talk Christian metal here in a
14:04
second, but you, you go from being the leader of this metal band that makes very, very brutal,
14:08
but also gospel inspired music to creating stuff that could just be tangentially related
14:13
to the CCM category. But it's just of a different ilk and a different style. So take me through
14:18
a little bit of that and then we'll, we'll break down a little bit more.
14:21
Yeah, man, I, so I had a dream. My, the guys in for today in my metal band, they would
14:28
tell you, you know, whenever I would be driving our van in the first years of our, of our,
14:34
our band's existence, I would listen to bluegrass all the time. That's, that was always my favorite
14:39
music ever since I first heard like folk and bluegrass kind of discovered those toward
14:43
the end of high school, beginning of college. And so, you know, we'd be driving to metal
14:47
shows, just jamming out to some banjo and fiddle songs. And, and I always sort of had
14:53
this thought because for me, bluegrass music has always sounded like home. There's this
14:59
sort of sentimental undercurrent in it where it just, that's the kind of music you listen
15:04
to when you're sitting on a porch with your wife and your kids. It's just the music you
15:07
listen to when, you know, the sun is shining and you got the windows down and you're driving
15:12
on back roads, thinking about how good life is, right? And, and I always felt like the
15:17
sound of this familial, these familial instruments and this, this sort of family, like home music,
15:27
I felt like that needs to be a part or a dimension or a layer of worship music because
15:34
heaven is our home. The presence of God is something to be celebrated. And so I felt
15:39
like, man, wouldn't it be cool if someone took bluegrass instruments and made, you know,
15:45
we would call maybe modern worship music, modern, modern worship, you know, structured
15:53
music with bluegrass instrumentation. And so when I years ago, when I hired our worship
15:58
leader, I said, you know, I want you to lead worship at the church for sure. I would love
16:03
for you to be able to put out albums, but I said, here's what's in my heart. I want
16:07
us, we live in, in like the bluegrass capital of the world in the tricities of Northeast
16:13
Tennessee. And so we're surrounded by bluegrass people, bluegrass bands, bluegrass musicians,
16:18
bluegrass history and culture. And I said, let's find the sound of this land. And let's
16:25
see if we can bring some bluegrass instrumentation into worship music. We're not from California.
16:30
I don't want to sound like we are. We're from Tennessee. Let's sound like we're from Tennessee.
16:34
And so that's where the altar music came from was us saying, Hey, this is this is what it
16:37
sounds like when Tennessee praises God. And so that's, uh, that's what we got. Okay.
16:43
So well, let's talk a little bit about that. So you create the, the first LP, which is
16:47
fantastic that I've absolutely worn out that I've shared with a bunch of people that are
16:50
more country, bluegrassy type people that just kind of deal with what is available in the
16:54
Christian space. And so they'll listen to that, but then they listen to this and just feels
16:58
better.
16:59
But so you release that first album, but y'all have new music out. But to my dismay, you're
17:04
releasing it in singles and not in EPs or LPs because like I'm not a singles guy. All
17:09
right. I might let's put the whole album on and just listen to it straight through. And
17:13
so let's let's talk about that. Cause my understanding is y'all kind of have, you know, you have
17:18
some in the bag. Like do you have an EP's worth or an album's worth? Like what's, you
17:22
know, you're, you're driving me nuts here. What's with the release once one every couple
17:25
of weeks thing.
17:26
So we, we released, um, one song we're about to release, uh, another, um, uh, just in a
17:32
couple of days after we're recording this, I don't know when this episode will be released,
17:36
but, um, on the 26th, our next song will be released. I think we have five songs recorded
17:43
and only those two are mixed right now. We're just kind of getting a mixed as we go along.
17:46
Okay.
17:47
And then we'll be recording another batch. In fact, right now as you and I are speaking,
17:51
the band is over at our church, rehearsing these next five songs and working on arrangements
17:55
and things.
17:56
And so we'll be recording those in the next couple of months. And then those will be coming
18:00
out throughout the year. And, and really this shift was, is just sort of an experiment for
18:04
us. Uh, I like you, um, sort of like, Hey, you release one song and then, and then with
18:11
that song you release pre-orders and then, you know, you release another song and then
18:16
you come out with the album and, uh, you know, you've got two or three singles from that
18:20
album and, and, and that's it. But, uh, we live in the age of Spotify where people consume
18:24
music one song at a time. And, uh, so things have, have changed. So, you know, if you can
18:29
turn an album that might have two singles on it into an album, you know, a 10 song album
18:34
or an 11 song album that has 11 singles on it. It's like those singles they'll get play
18:39
and, and position on Spotify. They'll sort of, uh, bounce around, you know, each song individually
18:44
will have its time to bounce around social media. And so my, um, worship and production
18:49
media team said, Hey, this is what we want to try. And I said, that's fine with me. It's
18:53
going to make Kyle mad, but you know what, we'll, we'll do it anyway.
18:57
And they even that they didn't change their mind, even knowing that you can send them
19:02
an email. If you want to, yeah, I will send them a very strongly worded handwritten letter,
19:06
but I do want to kind of know, like, again, I'm not a musician. And so I don't know anything
19:10
about core progressions. I don't know anything. I just know when certain things hit my earhole,
19:13
I like it and certain things hit my earhole and I'm like, yeah, I'm not feeling it. But
19:17
how does the writing process go? Because I remember again, whenever you sent me this
19:21
stuff before the first album came out, you're like, whoever thought I would be writing, you
19:26
know, bluegrass worship music. And so you, at least at the time had a hand in the actual
19:31
writing of the music. And so in that, that's kind of shocking to people. Like I remember
19:35
when I had a Matt Griner from August Burns, read the drummer on the show for the first
19:39
time. And he was explaining like, yeah, like, sometimes, you know, I write lyrics for some
19:44
of the songs. And sometimes, you know, this guy writes some lyrics and sometimes this
19:48
guy's writing a guitar part and like, it's a very collaborative thing. And then there
19:51
are other bands where everyone is siloed. It's like, you know, no one's giving feedback
19:56
like, I think tool is like that, like all those guys in that band, they go and figure
20:00
out what they're going to do individually. And then they kind of like mush it together
20:03
and then come together, you know, once every 10 years and release an album. And so like,
20:07
how does the writing process go for the ultra music? Who all's involved? Who has their hands
20:12
in the cookie jar?
20:13
Yeah. So speaking in generalities, I mean, everybody is open to suggestions in, in any
20:19
arena. But but speaking in generalities, we have, you know, an awesome group who really
20:26
have I think a revelation of the function, the right function of music within the context
20:31
of the local church. You know, the book of Psalms in the Bible, that was just the song
20:35
book for the, the, the Israelite people. And so, you know, they'd be walking around, they're
20:41
going, you know, with their family, their aunts and uncles and cousins, they're walking
20:44
for a week over to the temple for some holiday. And they're singing the whole way there, they're
20:48
singing Psalm 23. And so they're, they're, they're framing their understanding of God
20:54
by the songs that they sing. So for us, what our band does is, is they lean into every
21:00
message that I preach on Sundays. And they say, you know what is there? Is there a song
21:04
in this? Is there a way that we can help this revelation become something, something singable?
21:08
Like we, you know, we've heard it taught, we've studied it academically, but how can we really
21:13
get it into us, get it into our hearts? And I think one of the best ways that we can
21:17
do that is by singing it. And so, so sort of a lot of the songs that we release, in fact,
21:23
I would say the overwhelming majority of songs that we release are in one way or another inspired
21:28
by a message that I preach. They'll take a principle or an idea that I taught on a Sunday,
21:32
then they'll start to flesh it out into a song. Usually, I think most of the songs are written
21:37
by Zach Hagerty, who's our music director, the worship leader, the main worship leader
21:41
at the church, who's just, he's unbelievable. And, and then, you know, he'll get together
21:47
and collaborate with another songwriter, another singer or two, and they'll kind of just put
21:51
together the basic chords and, and lyrics. And then they'll, they'll bring him to me and
21:56
say, Hey, is, you know, how do we feel about this doctrinally? Is this something that we
22:00
want to, you know, stand behind? Is this something that we as a church endorse? Is this really
22:04
what we believe? Is there a better way to say these things? And it's like, you know, when
22:08
it comes to lyrics, I have written a lot of those. I wrote all the lyrics for for today.
22:13
I think there were a couple songs on our last album that I didn't write, but, but the, you
22:18
know, overwhelming majority of the lyrics I wrote, and obviously, you know, even for
22:22
other bands that I was in prior to that, I wrote lyrics. I've written and recorded lyrics
22:27
and vocals for hundreds of songs in my life. And so when they bring me the lyrics, it's
22:31
like, all right, you know, buckle up like we're not just talking about doctrine. I'm
22:35
going to tell you, Hey, this is, you didn't phrase this very well, there's a better way
22:38
to do this or hey, your vocal cadence here is weird. And so Zach, he's awesome. And he
22:42
wants to see the band succeed. And so we'll sit down for a couple hours over every song
22:48
and we'll dig through is there a better way to say this? Maybe this isn't clear or it's
22:51
not, you know, the image doesn't doesn't communicate as well as we want it to. And so that's like,
22:57
that's our process is we'll hammer through the lyrics together. And then, you know, from
23:01
there, we'll get some of the bluegrass guys together, the fiddle and violinist. And we
23:06
have an amazing producer, Gabe Gabriel Wilson, who he's actually a part of our church. He
23:11
produced some albums for some of the big, you know, contemporary Christian, you know,
23:15
popular prophetic worship teams around the country. Gabe, he's a member of our church
23:20
now. And so we'll sit down with him and he'll help us work on instrumentation and arrangements
23:25
and things like that, and really get it all dialed in before we actually record it.
23:29
I really like how you brought up the doctrinal piece of that, because I remember recently
23:34
hearing that Phil Wickham, who's enormous in the contemporary Christian music space,
23:39
he will actually submit his lyrics to theologians and different people to be like, Hey, did
23:45
I go to romantic here? Did I, did I go to a serial here? Like, does this align with
23:50
the scriptures? And that's one of the reasons why I love Shane and Shane so much is that
23:53
their songs are the scripture. Now they do cover a lot of contemporary Christian music
23:57
that's kind of vapid and nonsensical, but when it's their music, not covers, but when
24:00
it's their music, it's very tied to that. And I agree with you. Sometimes it's great
24:05
to just sing it. But other times, Maddie, it's great to scream it. And I tell you last
24:10
time I think the episode title was something we're screaming about. And I'm just wondering,
24:15
when am I going to get the ultra music song that has a banjo breakdown that has you with
24:20
your sunglasses and your vest with the mic cord wrapped around your wrist? Like when are
24:24
we going to get it? Come on, Maddie. You know, good idea. It might be time. You're going
24:29
to have to, I guess you're just going to have to listen to each single when they come out,
24:33
eagerly anticipating that moment. And you're saying it's going to happen is what you're
24:39
saying? That's saying you're guaranteeing me right now on not to life a man's podcast
24:43
that that's happening. I'm saying if it happens, you don't want to miss it.
24:47
All right, that is the most PR like democratic party thing I've ever heard of. It's like,
24:53
it's where you say words, but nothing ever gets answered. That was not. I mean, I don't
25:00
think that would sound good, man. I don't know. Maybe, you know what, I can say this,
25:05
maybe there'll be a day when we're just hitting it so hard on a Sunday and everybody's dancing
25:10
and going crazy. And I just go up and grab a microphone on Sunday morning and start screaming
25:15
the lyrics along with the band. And the whole church empties out three quarters of the people
25:19
leave offended and go to the first Baptist church down the street. Amen. And amen. And
25:24
I'll send them a care package on their way out the door. Get out of here, losers. But
25:27
I will say this. So have you heard of a holy name? Have you listened to them at all? Yeah,
25:31
all they're amazing. Okay. So that's, that's the thing to where it's like, is there anyone
25:36
else in the genre that's like that? Because it's very like Eastern Orthodoxy Chanty. And
25:42
then it's like brutal and they, you know, they got the guy from impending doom and then they
25:47
bring like different people in and it's like, that's such a unique kind of space. I don't
25:51
know how well a banjo would work in there. But I'm saying, Matt, you're a smart guy.
25:54
I think you, I think you can figure this out. Have you tried screaming in a while? Is it
25:58
still in there? Are you ever just like in the shower seeing if it's still there? I did.
26:02
Yeah, I, I did a guest vocals for a band that, that a couple of the members or a couple
26:10
of the guys in the band are members of our church. And so yeah, I did guest vocals in
26:15
their song recently. Okay. Very good. It's good to know that it's still in there. You're
26:19
right. Yeah, it's still in there. I went to there. I went to a hardcore show and I, they
26:23
held the mic out and I got to, I got to like try it out, try it on again. It felt, felt
26:28
pretty good.
26:29
Yeah, it's just like a bike. It's just like riding a bike. Every time I talk to you, I'm
26:33
going to bring it up. So just get used to it. But like on the subject of Christian metal,
26:36
I do want to talk about this just a little bit because we talked about that last time.
26:40
Everything was more disappointing to me or to my, I guess, 14, 15 year old self than as
26:44
an adult hearing about all these bands that I grew up with. And the guys basically admitting,
26:48
yeah, we were not Christians. We were never Christians. It was like, okay, we can sign
26:52
with, you know, but whole records or we can sign with solid state. So we signed with solid
26:55
state. It's like, okay, we could pay, you know, get paid 75 bucks to play a show at a bar or
27:00
we could get paid 1200 bucks to play at a youth group thing and stuff like that. Embodiment
27:04
is a band like that that comes to mind there. There are other bands like that that have
27:07
come out there. And so it seems like there's still kind of that split Matty in modern Christian
27:12
metal music. I don't know how much you keep up with it. To where you have the people that
27:15
seem to be fervent believers, like there's a band called Reform, there's a band called
27:20
convictions. And these are, these are bands that seem to like really mean it when they're,
27:25
when they're screaming these words. And it's not just the singer, it's all the other guys
27:29
in the band like, Oh, sleeper, the lead singer, Micah is a Christian, but like the lead guitarist
27:33
and lead songwriter is an atheist. And so it's like, okay, well, how exactly does that work?
27:37
What is, what is your view of the scene as it were? Because obviously for today's been
27:42
out of that for a very, very long time. But y'all were kind of the mainstay where you
27:46
were, I guess you could say the biggest band that actually minted at the time, at least
27:50
from the way that I was viewing it.
27:53
Yeah, you know, I think my, the thing that would always trouble me is that people would
28:05
come to our shows and they would say, you know, Oh man, you know, bands like you guys.
28:12
And also this other band have just totally inspired my relationship with Jesus. And the
28:16
other band they would list for guys that I know who don't give, who don't care at all
28:21
about pursuing God, they're not praying. They're, you know, getting drunk and sleeping with
28:25
groupies backstage. But then they'll say, Hey, God bless you at the end of the night.
28:30
And most of these kids can't tell the difference.
28:34
And so I think it's probably the same. I'm not as, I don't have my finger on the pulse
28:39
of the scene as much now as I used to, but it's probably the same now that it's really
28:43
important. If you're going to be navigating that world that you keep your discernment
28:48
on, and you ask yourself, you know, is this, is this performative spirituality? Or are
28:55
these people coming from a place of actually having walked with God? These people actually
29:00
know him. Are they here on an assignment really proclaiming and glorifying Christ? And John
29:05
16, Jesus says that that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin and righteousness
29:10
and judgment. He will lead you into truth. And Jesus says about the Holy Spirit, that
29:14
the Holy Spirit will always glorify him. So it's like, all right, if it's the Holy Spirit,
29:19
Christ is going to be glorified in the things that they do. So we should be able to discern
29:23
this. It's one of the gifts of the spirit is the discernment of spirits. So we should
29:27
be able to tell this is a spirit that's trying to glorify Christ. Or actually, now this is
29:33
a spirit that's trying to use Christ to glorify themselves. And the truth is though, we should
29:42
keep that discernment on, you know, at hardcore shows, we should also keep that discernment
29:46
on when we walk into churches, man, it's a, it's easy to say, Oh, yes, these hardcore
29:51
bands, you know, they're using Christ to glorify themselves. But the truth is, man,
29:55
I have met a whole lot of pastors that are doing the same thing. And so it's, it's really
30:00
important that we never take our discernment off that we never allow ourselves to just
30:05
say, well, you know, they, they said they believe in God. So they must be Christians.
30:09
It's like, no, no, no, we have to continually, you know, ask ourselves, is this actually
30:13
glorifying Christ? Because if it's not, it's not worth our time and certainly not worth
30:17
our money.
30:18
Hey guys, real quick, as you've likely heard me talk about on the show before, it took
30:22
me forever before I started taking supplements of any kind. I was always nervous about taking
30:26
like whey protein and creatine or really anything beyond that, because I was just afraid of
30:31
what was in the product and if it was going to like give me cancer someday or something
30:34
like that. And I was always scared of these companies, these supplement companies, just
30:38
cutting corners and using low quality products and eventually putting things in their products
30:43
that could cause problems for me and my body. So I've always wanted to partner up with an
30:47
American company that uses high quality ingredients in their supplements. And that's why I want
30:51
to remind you guys that we are partnered with Jocko Fuel. So Jocko Fuel is Jocko Willing's
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American based supplement company. So what are some of my favorite products that they
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make that I also use? They have the best tasting greens powder on the market. I love the peach
31:04
flavor myself. They also make whey protein powder, the banana cream is my favorite. They
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31:30
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undaunted to get 10% off of your order. Again, that's jockofuel.com promo code undaunted to
31:48
get 10% off of your order. Yeah, I mean, I was going to say as well, don't just keep
31:52
it to the metal world, take it to the rest of music, but you're absolutely right when
31:56
you go to somebody in the pulpit. And that's the problem is we only see their public presentation.
32:02
We only see their Instagram profile. We don't really see exactly who they are, but that's
32:06
something that I tell people all the time because you know, we're coming up on 600 episodes
32:09
and I tell people all the time like, please do not put your faith in me. Like I will surely
32:13
let you down like, believe me, I don't have plans to blow up my entire life, but it's
32:17
certainly possible. So your favorite podcast or your favorite preacher, your favorite band,
32:22
your favorite, whatever, stop putting these people on a pedestal because they're only
32:26
going to let you down. It's fine to be fans of people, but don't put your faith in them,
32:29
put your faith in Christ, because he won't let you down. And that's the thing is like,
32:33
it's fine to get enjoyment from a band or to get some, some expository preaching from
32:38
a pastor or something like that. But you really have to take it to bedrock and we have to really
32:43
reckon with who are we putting our faith in. And so I'm kind of the same way, like I don't
32:47
have my pulse on current Christian metal bands. It's kind of like I've officially felt like
32:51
I've become an old man. I'm listening to songs that are now I'm listening to like a
32:55
Norma gene album that came out 20 years ago somehow. And it's like how exactly is this
32:59
going to work out? But you're absolutely right. I think that's a great word in terms of like
33:03
making sure that we are constantly in an area in an era of our lives where we're discerning.
33:08
Now for you, obviously you transition and we talked about this last time from being, you
33:11
know, a full time person in a traveling metal band to being a senior pastor of a church.
33:17
Since you've last been on the show, I think you're in a new building. The churches continue
33:21
to grow. So let's just talk best and worst. What's what's been the best parts about being
33:26
the senior pastor of the altar for the last few years? What's the worst parts? Let's get
33:30
after it. Oh, man, you know, I think I think the thing that surprised me the most about
33:37
being a pastor is when we showed up to Johnson City, Tennessee, we didn't know anybody here.
33:45
We didn't have any relationships, any history in this area. But we came here determined
33:50
in our hearts. My wife and I, we're going to pour our lives out to bless these people
33:54
and to help encourage them toward Christ. And it never crossed my mind until we were
34:03
years into pastoral ministry, how much the people of our church would bless us. You know,
34:09
I thought we were going to come here. We're going to serve them. We're going to love
34:12
them. We're going to lead them. We're going to bless their lives and enrich their lives
34:18
as much as we can. But it never crossed our minds how much they would enrich our lives.
34:22
It's like, you know, I mean, some of my kids, best friends are members of our church. My
34:28
wife's best friend is best friends are members of our church. I mean, my, my wife is surrounded
34:33
by amazing women of God. I'm surrounded by amazing men of God. My, you know, my kids
34:37
have these awesome, you know, older kids to look up to that are just wonderful examples
34:42
to them. You know, if my kids want to learn how to start a business or how to play an instrument
34:47
or how to play a sport, it's like you want to become a, you know, world-class baseball
34:51
player? Well, we've got some, you know, some young men in our church that are baseball
34:55
coaches or, you know, high-level baseball players. You know, you want to become a drummer? Well,
35:00
guess what? We've got multiple world-class drummers in the church, super experienced
35:04
guys. I'd love to work with you. You want to paint a picture, you want to start a business.
35:07
There's men in the church that have started dozens of businesses that are very successful
35:10
entrepreneurs. And so, you know, our lives are so much richer for having given them to,
35:18
to the local church. And I, I guess it never crossed my mind that that would be the case.
35:23
And I'm really, really grateful, really amazed that it is. Now, yeah, I think, you know, to
35:31
answer the question, what's the best thing? I think that is the best thing is, is being
35:35
able to be in, you know, I was a dude in a band. And then I was a traveling itinerant
35:39
evangelist for years. And so, I would be there for a day or maybe a weekend at a time. And
35:45
we'd see people come forward to the altar. And maybe I'd meet one or two people. But,
35:48
you know, now I can walk into this room and I can point and say, well, that couple is
35:52
on the verge of divorce. You know, that girl had her suicide note written when she first
35:56
walked into our church and she tore it up and gave her life to Christ. That person was
35:59
a drug addict. You know, that person was struggling with depression. That person was an atheist,
36:04
you know, and, and to just walk through the room and, and point to the hopeless situations
36:08
that people were in, and to be able to say, now we're all together, worshiping God and
36:13
celebrating his kindness and love toward us. It's just, it's an incredible thing, man.
36:17
And you know, I feel like everybody told me how hard pastoring was going to be when we
36:22
started this. And it's like, I'm still sort of waiting to get to that point. Sure, we
36:25
have hard days, but man, it's glorious. It's been amazing.
36:28
Well, Matty, you answered part of my question because you're an optimist. You only focus
36:33
on the best parts. I want to know the worst parts, [inaudible]. Like, what are the worst parts
36:36
about being a senior pastor? Because like, there's got to be some muck and mire you got
36:40
to get through on a weekly basis. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think the worst part, there's no question.
36:45
And I would imagine that probably every senior pastor everywhere would say the same thing.
36:49
The worst part is that you give your life to people day by day, year by year, you cry
36:58
with them in the hard times, you rejoice with them in the good times. You know, you're there
37:02
in the middle of the night when they need you and their marriage is falling apart, when
37:06
you're struggling to have a child, they had a miscarriage, you know, you're the shoulder
37:09
that they cry on and you're there. I mean, you're feeling it all deeply with them. You're
37:14
walking with them year after year. And the worst part of the job is that sometimes after
37:19
all that, it's still not enough. And you know, people get bored, they get, you know, when
37:25
you're the guest speaker, everyone's very excited to hear from you. It's a privilege.
37:29
They view it as a privilege and an honor to be able to hear from this amazing man of God
37:33
this weekend. But when you're their pastor and they have your number and they've been
37:37
to your house and you've walked together and talked together and you have this, you know,
37:42
close personal relationship. Well, you're not as exciting as you were when they first
37:46
showed up. And so sometimes after two or three or four years, they just say, you know what,
37:51
it's been fun, but we just, this new thing is caught our eye. You know, the grass is
37:55
green or somewhere else. And so that's the hardest part. Someone, someone said once that
38:00
being a pastor is like preparing a doctor of dissertation and getting broken up with
38:06
by your girlfriend once a week every week for your whole life. And it's like, yeah, that's,
38:11
that's a good, a good summary.
38:13
Well, hey, Matty, the grass might be greener for those people, but it won't be bluer.
38:17
We know that the blue grass will keep them there at the altar. It certainly won't be
38:21
bluer. But hey, with that in mind, obviously, as a pastor, you're giving advice to people,
38:27
right? That's not the point when you're expositing the, the scripture. But obviously, if you're
38:31
expositing the scripture, if you're exegeating it, not isegeating it, there has to be some
38:35
sort of an application for these people to, to put it into their lives and to see where
38:39
they are in the narrative of God's creation. But I'm sure it's got to be a struggle for
38:44
you when people just won't do what the Bible says, or when they say, well, yeah, but that
38:48
was written by white men years ago. And I don't need to listen to that because I took
38:53
a philosophy class at the University of Tennessee or something like that, to where it's like,
38:58
how hard is it for people for you to just be like, I didn't make this up. Like, I didn't,
39:04
I'm not the one that created this opinion. I'm just holding it up to you and telling you,
39:08
this is the standard that the creator of the universe gave you. Like you run into quite
39:13
a bit of that as well. Well, I should say that we definitely run into errant theology.
39:23
But I should say specifically like woke theology, those people don't tend to come to our church.
39:29
And if they do, they don't tend to stick around very long. So I think that is all right. But the,
39:37
we definitely run into people that have their own opinions and their own ideas about what they
39:45
think the Bible says or what they think theology should be, or maybe they have an idea about maybe
39:51
what I would consider a minor doctrine that they think should be a major doctrine. And maybe I'm
39:55
not spending enough time talking about healing and signs and wonders. And maybe I'm not spending
40:00
enough time talking about, you know, God's plan for the family or the role of women in ministry
40:05
or whatever, you know, everybody's got their own sort of pet ideologies. And so, you know,
40:11
part of my understanding of leadership is that the key that opens the door to leadership is trust.
40:18
And so I tell people regularly, listen, if you, if you can't trust me as a leader,
40:23
you should go find a leader you can trust. But if you can trust me as a leader, then I'm asking
40:29
you to trust me with the way that I lead. And so if I am maybe majoring on something you think
40:36
should be a minor or maybe I'm not talking enough about something you think should be central,
40:40
it's like, okay, I'm just asking you to trust me here. Maybe you're just fully wrong. You've got
40:45
an idea or an opinion and we'll sit down and I'll say, well, here's what the Bible says.
40:50
And if they still aren't convinced, then I'll say, okay, just trust me, trust the fruit of my life,
40:55
trust the fruit of the spirit that you can see, trust the health of my marriage, the well-being
41:01
of my children, trust the community that God has used us to build, like let all of this be
41:05
evidence that the things I'm teaching are right and good because they're bearing good fruit.
41:11
And even if you don't see it my way, can you just trust me enough to just sit down and shut up for
41:17
a while? Because if you will trust now, you can understand later. But if you refuse to trust until
41:23
you understand, you're probably never going to be able to do either. And so, for me, the key is like
41:29
I just need you to trust that where we're going is right, where we're going is good. If you see me
41:33
teaching something that's contrary to scripture, certainly don't follow me there. But if there are
41:39
opinions or matters of personal interpretation or application and you feel like maybe we see
41:43
things differently, it's like, man, just trust me, let the fruit of my life speak for itself. It's
41:48
like when it comes to false prophets, Jesus says it will know them by their fruit. It's like what
41:56
fruit should they bear? Well, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness
42:00
and self-control. If I can see those things on somebody's life, I'll probably incline toward
42:06
wanting to believe their theology. You know, even if maybe I don't understand it, I'll say, well,
42:11
I see the fruit of the spirit on your life. So help me understand what is it you're seeing,
42:15
maybe I'm missing here. And now if I see bad fruit on someone's life, man, their theology may sound
42:21
airtight, but I'll still be suspicious of it. So for me, it's like I'm looking at the fruit of a
42:25
person's life and I would invite people to do the same for me. If the fruit of my life is good,
42:30
then they should trust my theology. And so that's sort of that's sort of been my approach to dealing
42:37
with people that see things differently. Although it doesn't happen a ton. And I think that's a good
42:44
thing. Well, it's actually digging a little bit more on that because that's a good word about trust
42:48
and fruit and all that because some people would just say trust. So what was it recently when John
42:53
Lindell was on stage with Mark Driscoll, and he made this comment to where he's like, don't
42:57
question or criticize the anointed like that type of thing. And then like three days later,
43:02
he's like criticizing the person he just said was anointed, right? You know, John Lindell
43:05
criticizing Mark Driscoll. And it's like, okay, so it's not just trust. It's trust and trust
43:11
but verify trust, but verify with the scriptures. And is there fruit here coming from this person's
43:15
words and from their mouth? But also there's got to be a struggle with leading a congregation
43:21
in an election year where everything is ratcheted up. Every news story is the news story that defines
43:27
us. Every new election is potentially the last election that we're ever going to have in a
43:32
democracy, even though we're a constitutional republic. And you're in a red state, but it has
43:36
some blue tendencies and there's some awkwardness there. And then you have these dorks,
43:40
these people that I just can't stand that they say these these things that sound good on a t-shirt,
43:45
but not really in real life. They'll say things like, you know what, I want to be known for what I'm
43:49
for, not what I'm against. Here at XYZ Baptist Church, we want to be known for what we're for,
43:54
not what we're against. Well, it's like, look, dummy, when you communicate that you're for something,
43:58
you communicate that you're against the opposite of that because duh, because that's how words work.
44:03
But talk to me a little bit about that because I'm sure there are people, Maddie,
44:07
that want you to be more political, more maga, more extreme, like spend Sunday morning, you know,
44:13
basically putting the ballot up on the screen and saying, this is how you should vote or you're
44:16
going straight to hell when you die. And then there's other people that are like, you know,
44:20
the Benedict option, hey, we don't want to have anything to do with culture. We don't want to
44:23
have anything to do with politics. We want to be gospel people. Even though when you say that,
44:27
you're saying that, hey, we only want atheists running the government. We only want atheists
44:31
running our school system, which I don't think that they would maybe cosign that either. But
44:34
that's got to create some consternation for you as you try to lead, right?
44:39
Yeah, I mean, listen, man, I am still a young man, despite what my kids say. I'm half black and half
44:47
white. I was, I'm a heavily tattooed former heavy metal vocalist and current senior pastor.
44:55
And so in some sense, I feel like I sort of exist between all the worlds, you know? And so I,
45:02
you know, I have had dark skin my whole life. And so have I seen actual racism? Absolutely.
45:09
Have I felt the sting of, you know, racial discrimination? Absolutely. However,
45:15
you know, I don't live in, in some bubble where I look at all the problems in my life. And I say,
45:23
this is because of white people. It's like, that's an insane thing to say. My, you know, my dad
45:28
was a, my dad passed away when I was eight of cancer, but he, he was black. He was born to a
45:36
crackhead mother who didn't even know who his biological father was, living in the projects of
45:41
Indianapolis. She couldn't raise him, didn't want to raise him. So she gave him away to another woman
45:46
who lived in the same project. So he's raised in the projects, runs with gangs and people like this.
45:51
Every other member of my dad's family is either dead or imprisoned for life. Not one of them ever
45:58
graduated from high school until him. He graduated from high school. He went to college. He got his
46:03
master's degree and he became a college professor. He was a college professor when he died. And so
46:08
same color skin, same neighborhood, same broken family, same, you know, opportunities to destroy
46:16
his life, but he just made different choices. And so my life is the product of the reality in
46:22
America. We live in a country where more than maybe any other society at any point in human
46:28
history, the outcome of your life is determined by the choices that you make. And so it's not perfect
46:35
certainly, but it's the most equitable society the world has ever seen. And I think that's a beautiful
46:40
thing, something that we should be celebrating and enjoying and encouraging people to take
46:44
responsibility for the choices they make in the same way that my dad did. So I say this stuff in
46:49
front of the church. And here's the thing, because of the color of my skin, you know, the, the white
46:56
liberal can't tell me that I'm wrong. It's like, this is my lived experience. This is what I know
47:01
to be true about the country that I live in. And so like I'm grateful for people's compassion.
47:09
But the truth is, you know, the best thing that people can do to, it's like, man, if you want to
47:16
help, listen, if any of your listeners feel very compassionate for black Americans,
47:22
and they want to help them, instead of rioting in the streets, or posting on Facebook, what they
47:28
can do is they can just go to Matty Montgomery dot com and send a donation to me. I will take
47:33
it personally. If you, if you want to help a struggling black man in America, send your money
47:38
to me. I'll take it. Thank you. Just find a black guy, give him a hundred bucks. It's like, yeah,
47:45
dude, we'll take it. You know, but all this, the problem for me is that people don't want to
47:49
actually help. What people want to do is they want to be seen helping, right? Like they want to look
47:56
compassionate. They don't actually want to be compassionate. And so anyway, I talk about this
47:59
stuff a lot at the church. It's not something that I shy away from. I'm happy to get into the dirt
48:05
with people because I can, I can understand the draw for people to want to get in involved in,
48:15
you know, the DEI movement in America. We want to see diversity and equity and inclusion. I understand
48:21
the compassionate heart that wants to see people taken care of. We don't want to see people,
48:26
you know, buried under medical debt. We don't want to see people, you know, lost in,
48:31
you know, lost because of racism or because of racial injustice or inequity. It's like,
48:38
yeah, man, I actually agree with all of those. And I do want to see people help. I just think that
48:43
this sort of performative compassion that we're doing isn't actually helping. So, you know, we
48:48
talk, I'm sorry, I, you got me on my soapbox. But we're talking about this a lot at the church.
48:53
And I do it, I try to do it preemptively. Like months ago, I stood in front of our church and I
48:57
said, you're going to be hearing the phrase Christian nationalism a lot this year. Let me break it down
49:02
to you. What it actually means, what, where we as a church actually stand as people that are
49:07
standing on the foundation of God's Word, so that when you hear people talking about Christian
49:12
nationalism and painting it in this like horrible light, like you shouldn't, you know, as a Christian,
49:18
you shouldn't care about the well-being of your country because that's racism and that's Christian
49:21
nationalism. It's like, no, no, no, we need to have a right understanding or the ability to rightly
49:28
categorize these things so that when people in the political sphere try to co-op these phrases,
49:33
we can actually understand what they mean. So I'm fine with you being under soapbox. I'll be
49:38
real honest with you. I wish we had more time to really dig in more. But I think the main point
49:42
there, Maddie, is the performative compassion, right? They get to signal virtue and all those
49:46
types of things. But again, the Christian nationalism thing, you're absolutely right. That's going to
49:49
ramp up. All the abortion rhetoric is going to ramp up in, you know, September, October, all these
49:55
different things. We're definitely going to have rights. The mainstream media is literally hoping
49:59
that an unarmed black man is killed by a white police officer that said a racist word 10 years
50:03
ago, like they're, they're hoping for it because when there's writing in the streets, it helps the
50:07
Democrats. But again, the Christian nationalism thing, as I've said, people that are claiming,
50:11
people are a Christian nationalist cannot define either of the words. They can't define what it means
50:16
to be a Christian nor a nationalist. And then they try to combine it into this, this new phrase,
50:23
when they don't even know what the pieces that they're using to create that phrase even mean.
50:27
And so it's like, look, if someone wants to call you that fine, let them call you that. It doesn't
50:31
really matter. Get into the whole sticks and stones thing. But you know, we don't have all the time
50:35
in the world. So I do want to transition to the main thing I wanted to talk to you about today,
50:38
even though we've been having a lot of fun. And it's that I was disappointed to know that
50:42
y'all were going to be releasing singles for the altar music instead of releasing LPs.
50:46
And then initially I was disappointed that instead of writing new books, you seem to be writing
50:51
devotionals. And I'm like, well, I didn't want to read a devotional, Maddie. I wanted to read a book
50:55
that was until I actually read the devotional. So the name of the devotional is back to the
50:58
beginning. It's an eight week study of biblical leadership insights from creation formation in
51:03
the fall of man. You're doing it through Genesis one through three. My understanding is that this
51:09
isn't just a one off, that this is going to be what partially what you're going to be doing moving
51:13
forward is writing these X number of week studies. And I guess my question is, is this
51:20
where did the idea come from? You know, why do that as opposed to writing books? Are these studies
51:24
mainly for the people of the altar? Or is this where people can kind of get them anywhere and
51:30
use them anywhere? Or like, kind of give me the whole background on this idea?
51:34
Yeah, so I do, I have done for the last couple of years, I've done some leadership coaching for,
51:43
you know, business leaders and entrepreneurs. I'm a part of an organization called Wealthy Kingdom,
51:49
started by a guy I've been doing coaching with for years now named Ryan Panetta.
51:55
And so I started, he wanted to start sort of a network, a national or international network of
52:03
Bible studies for specifically for Christian entrepreneurs and business leaders. And he said,
52:09
hey, would you help just create some content for this? We, you know, we want to give them,
52:13
you know, solid foundational principles to do these Bible studies about. And so
52:18
I said, sure, man, let's do it. So that's kind of where these came from was I started writing these
52:24
studies, because I recognize that we have to be as Christians in America, we have to be leaders,
52:31
we have to take responsibility for our community, we have to take responsibility for our industry,
52:37
we have to take responsibility for our own lives, our families, and even those around us. And so,
52:42
what does it mean? We've got to start to ask, what does it actually mean for us as Christians to
52:47
engage culture in meaningful ways and to help lead culture in the direction of Christ and His
52:55
kingdom? It's like Jesus prayed in the Lord's prayer, Father, let your kingdom come and your
52:59
will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That's the dream of Jesus on earth as it is in heaven. So,
53:04
if that's our vision on earth as it is in heaven, then we need to be doing everything we can to make
53:10
heaven, to make earth look more like heaven. And now I may not be in charge of the way our nation
53:15
is run or the way some business industry is run, but I am in charge of the way our church is run,
53:22
and so I want to make our church run just like heaven. And for somebody that maybe owns a real
53:27
estate business, my hope is that in their office that it'll function just like heaven, that it'll
53:31
look like heaven, it'll operate like heaven in that area. And so, my desire has been to put the tools
53:36
into the hands of leaders, whether it's people trying to lead their family, people trying to
53:40
lead their business, people trying to lead their ministry, to be able to actually look at the Bible
53:45
and see the leadership principles that are being spoken to us, revealed to us, and then take those
53:49
and apply them in meaningful ways. So, maybe that looks like people saying, hey, my small group is
53:55
going to go through this, my small group of church, we're going to go through this study,
53:58
we're going to learn these leadership principles, and we're going to begin to apply them in our lives.
54:01
Maybe it looks like, you know, a family getting together every morning before they all go off to
54:07
work in school and reading the scripture and reading my exposition about the scripture.
54:13
You know, maybe it looks like just an individual guy saying, hey, you know what, I want to be a
54:17
better leader for my wife and kids, I'm going to just read through this on my own, I want to study
54:21
this scripture and go deeper into this. And so, in some sense, it's formatted like a Bible study,
54:25
it feels to me maybe more like a commentary on, you know, these passages that I'm going to be
54:30
teaching out on some of these principles. And so, there's, you get some systematic theology,
54:34
you get some commentary style, writing and teaching on there. And, you know, at the end of the day,
54:39
my hope is to see believers really stepping into the role of leadership and responsibility to which
54:43
God has called them. Okay, and where can guys get access to back to the beginning or any of the
54:48
subsequent ones? Yeah, so they will, they'll all be available on my website, maddiemogumery.com.
54:54
They can, yeah, and of course, I'll be posting about it on social media. Yeah, this one will be
54:59
coming out in the next couple months, called back to the beginning, but then I've got another one,
55:04
coming down the pipeline, called leading to freedom. It's about the life of Moses. And then
55:10
there's, yeah, there's a couple on the kingdom and some other concepts and principles that I'm
55:16
doing as well. So I'm really excited to see these coming together. And for me, it's like,
55:20
sometimes I get overwhelmed looking at, you know, a whole book of 300 or 400 pages on one topic,
55:27
this is like eight to 10 pages on one, one passage of scripture, and then, you know, that's it for
55:34
the day, then we can move on. And so I feel like it's more digestible and understandable to help
55:38
us really learn how to study scripture for all its worth. All right, very good. I'll make sure to
55:43
link to that in the show. No, so you guys can check that out and obviously be following on
55:47
on Instagram so you can like be caught up with everything. But one of the concepts that came up
55:51
in back to the beginning, which, you know, is the forthcoming devotional, is there are some common
55:56
misconceptions about the value of scripture. And so we carry those common misconceptions
56:01
about the value of scripture into how we study the scripture or how we don't study the scriptures.
56:06
I tell people all the time, if we actually believe that the Bible was the word of God,
56:10
don't you think we would read it? Don't you think that we would study it? Don't you think
56:13
that we would maybe study it with people? But we, you know, we live in America, I live in Oklahoma,
56:18
and so you're, you're a Christian by den to birth, right? So because you were born on this precious
56:21
red clay, you're, you're a Christian, right? And so we've all got Bibles, but they got a, you know,
56:26
half an inch a dust on the top of them. And we don't really, really take them that seriously.
56:29
And I think it's because there are some misconceptions about the value of it. So you don't have to give
56:33
away everything that you talked about in the devotional, but talk a little bit about the
56:36
misconceptions. Sure, man. You know, I think the mistake that we make, there's a, you know, an
56:41
ongoing sort of debate about whether the Bible is, you know, literal or metaphorical, you read things
56:48
in the first few chapters of Genesis, for example, about talking snakes, right, about there being
56:55
this like one man and one woman in this garden, Adam and Eve. And we asked the question, all right,
56:59
is that is, was there literally a talking snake? Was there literally a flood that covered the whole
57:03
earth? Was there, you know, literally a tower that was being built to heaven and then God
57:07
knocked it down? And that's where different languages came from. And if I have to sort of plant my flag
57:14
in one camp or the other, whether it's literal or metaphorical, I will plant my flag firmly in
57:20
the literal camp. However, I don't think, I think we're creating a sort of false dichotomy here where
57:26
we're saying, well, there's two options. When the reality is neither one of those are the most
57:31
personally advantageous option when it comes to a right reading, understanding, interpretation,
57:37
and application of Scripture. So the Bible is not best seen as literal or metaphorical,
57:43
the Bible is best seen as personal. When I'm reading the Bible, I need to ask myself,
57:48
why did God put this message in this book for me? Like this is God's holy universal word. And so
57:57
when I read this, I know that God in sovereign wisdom included this passage in the Bible because
58:04
he wanted me to have access to it. So, okay, Lord, what are you saying to me today? Why is this
58:09
important to you? How does this matter to the story? What does this reveal about your character
58:14
or your nature? And how can I come to know you better because of what is in this book?
58:19
And so, that is, I think, where we fall short is so many people are wondering that this really
58:25
happened. Is this true? They read it like a history book. It's just cold, dead information,
58:30
or they read it like, it's just sort of poetic imagery. And it's like, oh, that's neat, some sort
58:36
of moral example. But we're not reading it like this is God's text to us. He said, I want to reveal
58:43
my heart. I want to reveal my mind and my ways to you. That's where the Bible came from. It's God's
58:49
sovereign will to make himself accessible and knowable to mankind. And I think by that
58:55
understanding alone, the Bible becomes of critical importance and value. And so, as we're studying
59:02
it, we need to not ask ourselves, is this metaphorical, is this literal? We need to ask ourselves,
59:07
we need to acknowledge to ourselves that this is personal and we need to read it like it's God's
59:11
message directly to us because it is. One also really like it's life-giving and that there's life
59:16
in the people that are living it because one thing that I was stuck in, in Scripture for the longest
59:21
time, and it was I would just read the quotes from these people. And then Jesus went over here,
59:28
and then he said this thing, and then he did this thing. And I read the book Beautiful Outlaw
59:33
by John Eldridge. And some people have problems with that book because John Eldridge is fairly
59:37
poetic. But the point that Eldridge was making is he was pulling from the gospels the personality
59:42
of Jesus. And he was careful to say like, hey, I don't know if he was angry and screaming right now,
59:48
or I don't know if he was whispering or whatever that type of thing. But it got me out of the habit
59:53
of reading it as if Jesus was some sort of like God-like robot, where it's like, you know, he's
59:59
imagine, can you imagine him delivering the Sermon on the Mount Monotone? Because that's how I read it.
1:00:04
Like, that's how I was reading the Sermon on the Mount. But it's like, no, he had to have times
1:00:07
where he was speaking more slowly and times that he was speaking with a little bit more of them
1:00:11
and verve and like those types of things. And so that's what it helped me do as well. And I think
1:00:16
that that's a helpful thing as we all read the Scripture specifically, the gospels is when Jesus
1:00:20
was talking, maybe he had a, you know, had a glint in his eye when he was giving some things.
1:00:24
There was probably some sarcasm. Can you imagine him walking around with 12 other dudes? For that
1:00:28
length of time, you think it was all serious all the time? You don't think they were busting their
1:00:31
balls? You don't think Peter tripped over a rock and everyone made fun of them? Like, this was a
1:00:34
real dude operating in the world that we are in right now. But another thing, Matty, that you talk
1:00:39
about in this devotional is the importance of the dominion mandate. And I feel like
1:00:45
men specifically, that's the majority of the people listening to you right now are men,
1:00:49
you know, on this podcast, is we don't understand the dominion mandate. And so when we go try to
1:00:54
take it, we don't know where we're aiming. And if you don't know where you're aiming, you can't get
1:00:58
to the, where you're aiming, you can't get to the highest ideal. So talk to us a little bit about
1:01:02
the dominion mandate. Yeah, man. I mean, that's, well, so Jesus says be fruitful and multiply,
1:01:10
so do and take dominion. And so there's a prerequisite to dominion that prerequisite is
1:01:19
multiplication. And let's go, let's go deep today. Okay, so Jesus says be fruitful and multiply,
1:01:28
so do and take dominion. So he's saying, I want you to have dominion. And I'll come back,
1:01:33
I want to put a pin in that word, because I'll talk about it more in just a minute. But,
1:01:37
but he says, first, you're going to have to be fruitful and multiply. And this has been an
1:01:42
issue for the church is that we want to have dominion, but we don't have multiplication. We're
1:01:45
not making disciples. We're not preaching the gospel to the unsaved. We're not reproducing what
1:01:50
God has done in us, in those around us. And so, but we're looking around thinking, why don't we have
1:01:56
dominion? You know, oh, we need to have a better social media strategy. Let's go hire a professional.
1:02:00
You know, we have to have a cool conference with a male stripper at it. It's like, yeah,
1:02:05
we don't like none of that stuff is helpful or useful at all. What we need to have is multiplication.
1:02:11
It's actually multiplication is the vehicle that drives dominion. It's the key that unlocks
1:02:16
dominion. Now, here's the interesting thing. Multiplication, if you look at Adam and Eve,
1:02:23
like, there's a very specific type of multiplication that Adam and Eve are, you know,
1:02:28
commanded by the Lord to engage in. And the prerequisite for multiplication is intimacy. So,
1:02:33
we see the first supposed to have dominion, we have to know that before dominion comes
1:02:37
multiplication, but before multiplication can come, intimacy has to come. And now, this is,
1:02:43
I think, where we fail as leaders in the church. We have, we have Jesus as sort of a product to
1:02:54
sell instead of an example to follow. And if we were to follow the example of Jesus, what we find
1:03:01
is that Jesus got people in his life. He put them in his schedule. He included them in his plans.
1:03:07
He ate with them. He laughed with them. He fished with them. He had picnics with him. He went over
1:03:10
to Peter's mother-in-law's house. It's like, you know, this is, he's living life for these people.
1:03:15
And from this intimacy comes multiplication. And then from that multiplication comes dominion.
1:03:21
He, he reproduces his relationship with God with, or with the father, his relationship with the
1:03:27
father. He reproduces that relationship in Peter and John and Andrew. And then those guys,
1:03:34
they take that and they begin to reproduce it into others, right? They're filled with the spirit
1:03:39
in Acts chapter two. And Peter preaches the gospel of 3000 people are brought into the kingdom in
1:03:43
the very next chapter. In Acts chapter three, Peter and John are walking through the gate called
1:03:48
beautiful. Men gets healed and 5,000 people in and around the temple come to salvation that day.
1:03:53
And so this multiplication happens. And then later in the book of Acts,
1:03:57
these guys would be described as those who have turned the world upside down. So dominion comes,
1:04:02
influence comes, transformation comes because of multiplication. But that multiplication only
1:04:07
happened because of intimacy. And so we have to understand that there are prerequisites to
1:04:12
dominion. We don't get to just say, Hey, you know what, God said it. I'm in charge here. It's like,
1:04:17
no, you have to like earn dominion and you earn it by way of multiplication and you produce
1:04:22
multiplication by way of intimacy. But now dominion and something that I say in the back to the
1:04:27
beginning study is that dominion is just a fancy word for responsibility. And it's easy for us to
1:04:32
throw around phrases like, well, the dominion mandate. It's like, yeah, that's important. It's
1:04:37
an important command to God's people. But we have to understand what dominion is. It doesn't mean
1:04:42
control. It means responsibility. And it's why when Eve ate the fruit and gave it to Adam,
1:04:49
God didn't come looking for Eve. He came looking for Adam. Adam, where are you? Because Adam,
1:04:55
you have to answer for what happened here, because you're the one that had dominion.
1:04:58
See, like so dominion, it doesn't just mean that we're like in control of everything,
1:05:04
you know, everybody and everything answers to us. It means no, we take responsibility to have
1:05:09
dominion means to look at the state of your church, the state of your family, the state of your
1:05:13
neighborhood, the state of your city, and to say, you know what, this doesn't look on earth as it is
1:05:19
in heaven. And so I've got work to do. And to begin to pay off people's debts, go begin to clean
1:05:26
up people's yards, go begin to speak healing in life to marriages or families that are broken,
1:05:31
begin to bring hope to people that are hopeless and help those that are in bondage. Like, this
1:05:35
is what it looks like to actually take dominion. It means to look at the brokenness of the world
1:05:39
around us and to take responsibility to help become the solution for those problems.
1:05:45
Guys, if you zoned out during the last three or four minutes, when Maddie was talking, I want you
1:05:49
to go ahead and hit that reverse button on your podcast player there and go back because that
1:05:54
was money. And we're, we're with you on that. We're here in the fight with you. I actually
1:05:58
have some stuff to talk with you about after we stop recording, that really goes with this whole
1:06:02
dominion mandate as well. But as of right now, I know you got other stuff to do. I got other stuff
1:06:07
to do. But I think we had a good conversation today. But that's all for me. Is there anything
1:06:11
else you want to get off your chest? No, man. I really appreciate it, Kyle. Thank you so much.
1:06:15
The chance to chat again. All right, man. We'll talk again soon. Yes, sir.
1:06:19
There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed the return appearance of Maddie Montgomery on the
1:06:21
show. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Adam Dontalife,
1:06:25
our mission is equipping him into pushback darkness with content that forges spiritual
1:06:28
mental and physical resilience. So links I've got for you today, I've got a link to his website,
1:06:31
his Instagram, but also a link to his church. Then I've got a link to for today's music. So
1:06:35
you can go and check all that out and I'll link to his previous appearance on this podcast.
1:06:38
Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe,
1:06:41
rate, and leave us a positive five star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event
1:06:45
or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undontalife. That's i-n-f-o @undontalife.
1:06:51
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,
1:06:55
including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undontalife.
1:07:00
And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content.
1:07:04
The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album on
1:07:09
Face Down Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing
1:07:15
back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:07:39
[silence]