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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
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Let's get into it.
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All right, guys.
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Welcome back to the show.
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We are here for part two of my chat with Matt Chandler.
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So guys, we had part one earlier this week.
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We covered a lot of ground, but we covered even more ground in this one.
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But if you missed the last one, let me just bring you up to speed.
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Matt Chandler is a preacher pastor and author.
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He has been the senior pastor of the Village Church in Texas since 2002.
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And he is also the executive director of the board of the Acts 29 church network.
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He's written a lot of different books.
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My favorite book of his is the explicit gospel.
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It's on our book list of the 100 books every modern Christian Manchin read list, and he's
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got a new book out now.
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So guys, if you're listening to this on time, you can go and get it right now.
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It's called the Overcomers God's Vision for you to thrive in an age of anxiety and outrage.
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And if you've listened to my show for any length of time, you know that I love Matt Chandler,
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you know that I love his sermons, and I've gotten to know him as a person, so I love him
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even more now.
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But in this particular part two, right, so we cover a lot of ground.
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So we talk about the overcomers.
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We talk about the book.
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We talk about why he uses the book of Revelation as a scaffolding for a book like this because
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a lot of people are intimidated by Revelation.
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They don't understand it.
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It's just kind of weird to them.
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Most people just kind of skip it.
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So it's like, Hey, why would you use that for a book like this that you hope to be commercially
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profitable?
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But also I challenged him a little bit because since I've watched every single one of his
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sermons since 2008, 2009, somewhere around that time, maybe even as far back as 2007,
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because my buddy Kyle Perkins that I worked with at the time at the University of Central
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Oklahoma, he's like, you got to listen to this firebrand preacher.
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He's awesome.
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So thank you to KP for turning me on to his work.
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As I've been listening to him for that length of time, I've been able to kind of look at
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different eras of his preaching and be like, okay, during this era, he was really focusing
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on this.
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And during this era, he was really had a heart for this.
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But I noticed a couple of years ago that there was maybe a little bit of a lull in his
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sermons, right?
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They were still good, but there was just kind of a lull.
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And the way I said it in the interview, it's like I kind of felt like you were mailing
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it in a little bit.
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And so we talk about that time period and I was really kind of blown away by his response
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and to kind of hear about what he was going through.
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But also, we talk about some of the comments that he's made that have really struck people
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the wrong way as it pertains to race.
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Specifically, we talk about the presentation, the sermon that he gave at MLK 50, which one
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thing that he told me personally before we got on to the interview is like of all the
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sermons that he wished he could take back or to go back and edit and then do it again,
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it would be that one.
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And so on that subject in particular, I know a lot of people have expressed like, oh, matching
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there's gone off the deep end, woke on the race stuff and things like that.
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And I've expressed those concerns on my show as well at different points.
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But we can't just spend the entire time talking about that one subject matter.
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We had other things that we needed to talk about, but we'll talk about it more later
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at a later date or something like that.
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So we were able to dig in, but we were on limited time, so we couldn't just like spend
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the entire time on that.
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So if you're freaking out, just relax.
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But also we talked about men's ministry and kind of what that looks like, hey, you know,
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what's the difference between like a man-friendly church and just doing men's ministry, but then
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at the very, very end of this, so you want to make sure that you stick around to the end.
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I asked him about my favorite Matt Chandler moment.
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And that is when he literally burned down Steven Fertig's church around him while he
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was speaking at Steven Fertig's church with Steven Fertig sitting right there.
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And just, it's the most amazing moment.
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Maybe in the history of sermons that I've ever watched, just considering the context
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and just hearing Matt kind of talk about what was going on and a little bit of the behind
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the scene stuff.
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It was just really, really funny, really entertaining.
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So I'm very excited for him to bring that to you guys.
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So guys, part two, get excited, buckle up, and without further ado, let's get into it.
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All these things are kind of weaving around the same drain of you have to be in community
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after submit yourself to authority and accountability of the men that are around you need to be
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able to build all those things.
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And what all that stuff leads to is what I talk about all the time, which is resilience.
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Yeah.
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I don't care about strength, because strength wanes over time.
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It fades.
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It comes in and out.
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But resilience is one of those things that I think is lacking in total.
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And so that's why I'm so excited for the new book, The Overcomers, is because this is
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not a guidebook for how to be a resilient human being.
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This takes a, an exact sliver of the fight that we are all called to fight, and it gives
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us some ideas and some tools to how we can engage in that fight, if I were to summarize.
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But I do want to read what the definition of an overcomer is from your book.
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And then I kind of want to know, Hey, why even write this book, try a time such as this,
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you know, that type of thing.
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So this is the definition that you have in the book of an overcomer.
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This is a believer propelled by scriptural truths empowered by the work of Jesus and encouraged
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by those who have gone before them with open eyes to deeper spiritual realities and one
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who overcomes indoors, who overcomes, endures the brokenness of the world with holy resolve.
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This individual marked by love and through the power of the Holy Spirit joins in God's
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offensive against darkness and destruction.
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The overcomer unites with the triune God and his holy church to stand as an unwavering,
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unanxious presence, bluntly put, the overcomer is a major problem to the enemy.
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That last part there, because you got the pushback darkness thing there in the middle.
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So you're speaking my language, because I'm here to equipment to push back darkness.
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But bluntly, an overcomer is a problem for the enemy, which means they become a lightning
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rod for the enemy as well.
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And they're going to direct a lot of his attention.
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So let's talk about the overcomers.
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Why this book?
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Why now?
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What can people expect to get out of it?
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Yeah.
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So there were something that's been boiling up in me for years.
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Well, coming back from COVID, you know, everything's opening back up, we start kind of doing
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what we do again.
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And in Texas, COVID was over way before it was in a lot of other states.
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And what I noticed at the village, what was that it looked like we didn't come fully
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back, like we didn't like we were shell shocked in a way by what happened in 20 and into 21.
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And for me, the chaos is opportunity.
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The dysfunction is what we're called to run into.
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But it seemed like we didn't want to get canceled.
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We didn't want to get labeled a certain way.
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We didn't want to be labeled as a bigot or, you know, and so there was a there were two
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things I was seeing broadly, even in evangelicalism, and then even in the church that I pastor,
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where there was some acquiescence to the culture or there was just silence.
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There was just silence and in my bones, I know, like this is our moment.
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Like this is ours.
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Like nobody's coming to bail us out.
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Like nobody's coming to fix this.
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We're God's big plan and he's not wrong.
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And another team coming through the locker room.
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There's no there's no superstar about to show up and deliver us.
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I mean, and then even I've wondered, like sometimes I'll say, hey, yes, Lewis isn't
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come, but I wonder could see us Lewis navigate this.
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This world would be so strange to him.
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Now, I mean, I hope the Lord doesn't do anything to me for saying that, but like GK Chesterton
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isn't coming to critique the political arena right now.
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We're here.
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And that's by God's design.
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Psalm 139, you've been uniquely designed by God.
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Like you're being fearfully, wonderfully made.
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That's not a text for women's ministry.
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I understand why they use it, but God's saying in that fact, no, I did this.
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I'm like, like you're freaking genetic makeup.
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I was all in that.
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We know how babies are made.
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We know God's not, you know, nitty, no, that's poetry to describe a biological reality.
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And that means God knowing the days that he had for you.
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That's in the text, put you together for those days.
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That means there's two things in view in that passage.
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There's your unformed substance.
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Well, what's that?
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That's my personality type that that's whether I'm fight or flight.
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That's how God wove me together in my mother's womb.
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But it's also my physical form.
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Like God did this.
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I'm six, five.
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I'm loud.
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My vocal folds, they don't give.
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I mean, they just don't give him.
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I'm sorry.
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You did that.
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You did that.
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I'm sorry.
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Purple Bell.
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I have a huge scar on my neck.
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I see it.
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I have a weak voice.
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You don't have to flex.
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It's fine.
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It's fine.
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Okay, get back into your relationship.
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And like it's like God built me for this.
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Right.
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He built you.
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You're, I don't care where you freaking out.
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He built you for this.
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And then you go up to Acts 17 where the apostle Paul's in Athens and he's saying like, look,
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the times of your being and the boundaries of your habitation, like God's in that and
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wise in it so that men might seek him and find him, though he's not far from any of
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us.
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Now, put those together, uniquely wired, uniquely placed, then bump on up to Corinthians and
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Paul's going, the Holy Spirit has uniquely gifted you according to the grace of God.
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Like so now I'm uniquely wired.
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I'm uniquely placed.
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I'm uniquely gifted for when now, right now.
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And so that was, that's what was burning in me at that time, guys, we can't shrink back.
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This is our moment.
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We can't acquiesce.
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This is, it's been given to us to be the prophetic voice that both speaks to power and lives
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out the truth, beauty and goodness of Christ.
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But if we're afraid, we won't do it.
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We won't do it.
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And so that's the framework that I started coming at here.
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And then just by the grace of God, I was out of my river cabin.
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All this is bubbling up in me.
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I'm walking around.
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I got rebuked by the Lord for some stuff that was going on in my own life.
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And then I'm in revelation at about six in the morning reading and then it just like
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opened up to me.
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I was like, holy cow, this is it.
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And then came back and told my crew, hey, I'm preaching through revelation.
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And they're like, you're going to do what?
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I was like, I'm preaching through revelation.
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Like what?
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Well, you know, we're doing, we're going to do Romans and men's and women's Bible study.
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Why don't you air war Romans and are like love Romans, Mount Everest of books of the Bible.
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But man, I'm provoked and I need to follow the provoking of the spirit and then preached
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through revelation at the village and I just watched us wake up.
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I mean, I, I felt like I was in something like this is a funny story.
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Like what God was doing while I was preaching that.
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I don't know that I've ever maybe I felt that one more time my whole life when I was preaching
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through Ecclesiastes a billion years ago.
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And like what God was doing at TBC was so profound that there was a weekend where someone
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else on our staff was scheduled to preach and he walked up and he's like, not a chance
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I'm taking that weekend.
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Bro, it looks like you're pitching a no hitter and I'm not about to step in there.
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So I'll do it if you want.
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But I think the Holy Spirit's telling me you do it and I could feel he was right.
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He's one of my guys.
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And I was like, I hear you Trevor, I got it and and then it resonated outside of TBC.
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I don't think like unlike anything I've ever preached, I mean, like it's like three million
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views or something right now.
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And so then I was actually working on a different book and a good friend of mine called and
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just said, hey, I don't know what you're working on, but you take this revelation series and
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you frame it up and you tee it up and go.
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And the overcomers was born and it's been three a three year journey to make it happen.
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But here we are.
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One, there's there's a lot of similarities just in the from the scaffolding standpoint
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of take heart and the overcomers because it's like preparing someone for a time as this.
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It's like, look, someone leaving a mean comment on your Instagram because you posted it, you
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know, a picture with scripture on it.
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That's not the same as someone that's under actual persecution that could lose their top
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now.
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We're annoying.
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Right.
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That's what we are to culture right now.
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We we're like a like something they've got to try to get past to get to the utopia that
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it will not be waiting for them.
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And that's okay.
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I mean, that's worse salt and light.
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We have a preserving effect.
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We are we are a nuisance, right?
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And we should continue to be a nuisance until the light drives out darkness, right?
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You know, a polite nuisance but also a distance that's there from the beginning.
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I will say this as I was reading through the book because, you know, guys, you just have
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to get the book.
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It'll be in the show notes.
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You guys can check it out for yourself.
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But I think something that's apparent with the modern day church is that we don't actually
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have a love for the word like I kind of have this revelation about a year ago.
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I was like, I don't think people Christians that are in these churches actually think
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the Bible is the word of God.
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Yeah.
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I don't think they do because if they actually believe that it was God breathed and in errant
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and all the things, right?
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We would probably read it and beyond reading it, we might actually study it.
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We might be under the tutelage of other people that have more time in their schedule to study
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it.
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But I just don't think that we believe that which leads to, I guess, the shocking question
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which you've kind of addressed already, which is like, so to unpack that overall idea in
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the overcomers, you use revelation, which is scary and weird.
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And it freaks people out.
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And I was sitting under Dr. Mark Hitchcock at the Faith Bible Church in Edmond, Oklahoma.
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So he's done a lot of work on revelation and on End Times prophecy.
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So he's loving everything going on in the Middle East right now because it's like, I've
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been preparing my whole life for this moment, but it's like, you could have gotten your
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revelation when you're out, you know, kicking it in the sticks and oh, you got your revelation
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through revelation, but let's just do something else.
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Like let's preach something else.
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Let's go somewhere else.
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So why take a book which some people would say is, hey, I can wrap my head around the
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concept.
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Let's go ahead and read that and then use revelation as your roadmap.
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Listen, if you're a man, oh my gosh, revelation, it's war and victory and being in the fight
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and a clear picture of the enemy and how the enemy functions and what his schemes are and
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how he launches his, his, you know, his best stuff at you.
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And like you, you want to know that.
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And then the message of revelation over and over and over and over and over and over and
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over again is King Jesus enthroned the lion lamb and his victory given to us.
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This isn't sweet, six pound, eight ounce baby Jesus.
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This is sort out of the mouth tattoo on the thigh.
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He's given everyone opportunity to repent and come to him.
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And now his victory, his final victory is going to roll across the earth.
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And I think here's what's wild.
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The book of revelation has been given to the church to encourage her.
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I mean, and first and for 2000 years, that's what it did about 150 years ago, we got a
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little janky with some stuff and started taking the newspaper and trying to understand revelation
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with the newspaper.
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But gosh, in the first five verses, he tells you what the book is and it's a letter.
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I mean, he says to the seven churches of Asia Minor, it's a letter, which means it was written
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for us, but it wasn't written to us, which means it cannot mean to us what it did not
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mean to them.
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So you can't tell me the Apache helicopter is the locust that come out of the bowl.
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You can't do it because no one, I mean, are you?
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So there's a there's a group that would see revelation as only mattering to the last generation
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before Christ returned.
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Why does he give it to John in 96 AD?
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If it's only going to help the people the last 20 years, would they make the same argument
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about Ephesians?
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Well, it's like, well, this is meant for the church and Ephesus, not for us.
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Like they certainly wouldn't make that.
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No, you can't.
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And it's bad hermeneutics.
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And so this book revelation has done more to put steel in the spine of Christians across
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all sorts of different weathers.
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I mean, 96 AD, they're on the end of a 30 year rutal persecution.
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And each successive emperor made it worse.
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Not better.
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I mean, they saw Paul killed Timothy killed drug out in the street and killed the headed
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murdered upside down, John boiled alive and survived it.
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They're like, Oh crap.
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And just put them on Patmos because it wigged them out.
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I mean, the church had just lost after loss after loss and the apocalyptic part of revelation.
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All apocalypse means is unveiling.
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I'm going to pull back the veil and show you what's actually going on because things are
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not what they seem.
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And when he pulls back the veil, Christ is on his throne and all creation is moving towards
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him and surrender and his vanquishing of all of his, all of them is complete.
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And there's going to be that made visible one day, but the reality is present right now.
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And that victory is available to anybody listening to us talk.
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18:22
Having read the book, what the book did for me is this wasn't the point of the book, but
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it helped me to unravel some of the parts of revelation that have been very confusing
18:34
for me.
18:35
But you were using that as a way to explain the overall idea that you wanted to come out
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with, with the overcomers, which you talked about a little bit earlier.
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But there are certain things in scripture that people are like, four horsemen in the
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apocalypse.
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Crap.
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I don't really understand this.
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This is kind of weird.
18:50
And then it's like, you know, when Jesus, we love, you know, sweet Jesus, we love Lamb
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of God.
18:56
We love, you know, this somehow Danish looking guy that's very, very beautiful that likes
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to kiss women on the tips of their noses and say how cute they look in their tunics.
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It's like the fiery eyes and the mini crowns on the head and the robe dipped in blood is
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at the blood of his enemies is at the blood from the cross.
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We don't know.
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But it's just one of those things that kind of freaks us out, but it did help me kind of
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wrap my mind around some of the churches and the messaging and all that and all that's
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fine.
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But there were a couple of quotes from the book that they're haunting in a way.
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And I feel like could be its own book.
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So maybe the overcomers too needs to be a thing, but let me read these quotes here.
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They're both short.
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One is we live in a day where tolerance is viewed as supreme, yet the Bible doesn't
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exalt tolerance as a value in the church ever.
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And a little bit later, I don't know if this was your quote, if you're quoting somebody
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else.
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I can't remember, but it's the church in the West.
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This was someone else's quote.
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The church in the West is under some sort of satanic lullaby.
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And so reading those, those aren't two completely different parts of the book, but I think it
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comes back to this, this thing that what Vodie Bockum calls, you know, the 11th commandment,
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now shout be nice, right?
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And I feel like part of the satanic lullaby is, oh, if I'm tolerant to a culture that
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hates me and would hate me regardless of the way I acted, just because I checked the box's
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team.
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Jesus, if I'm tolerant, then maybe they'll give me what John Cooper calls my woke cookies.
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Maybe they'll pat me on the head and say, you're not so bad.
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It's kind of like we will be seeing the political sphere.
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It's like, okay, if we put a moderate Republican in there, maybe they won't hate them.
20:23
It's like, no, no, no, whoever the Republicans pick will be Hitler, right?
20:27
Whether it's Trump or DeSantis or Nikki Haley, they are Hitler somehow.
20:31
It's just kind of baked into the cake, but we'll back out of the political sphere a little
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bit.
20:35
But this is one of the things that I think is killing the church in the West.
20:38
Eric Metaxas has talked about a lot in his letter to the American church.
20:41
He talks, you know, he goes back to the time of Bonhoeffer and how he was talking about
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the German church, how there was a split of people that supported the rise of the Nazi
20:49
party and thus the Third Reich and people that were anti the rise of the Nazi party.
20:54
And it's just a few thousand pastors in Germany that wild flipped over to team anti-Nazi.
21:00
There is no Holocaust.
21:01
There is no World War II.
21:03
Adolf Hitler is not a name that we know.
21:05
We might have dogs walking around named Adolf.
21:07
He can't name a dog Adolf right now, but it only took a few more men of courage, you know,
21:14
in terms of the population of the world, it only took a little percentage to flip the
21:17
other way.
21:18
I feel like the church is abdicating its responsibility to speak truth into culture and to push back
21:22
against darkness, because we just want to be seen as this tolerant go along to get along.
21:27
I want to be known for what I'm for, not what I'm against.
21:29
Sure.
21:30
People.
21:31
Well, the thing that's fascinating about the letters to the churches, especially the line
21:36
I'm referencing there is he, he says you tolerate that woman Jezebel.
21:41
It's not that Jezebel's teaching, it's like you've tolerated her.
21:46
You have not spoken out against.
21:48
You have not made sure that this isn't happening, that the sin that you're guilty of that's
21:53
going to, if you don't stop, if you don't turn and overcome it, is the tolerance of this
22:00
woman's teaching.
22:01
In fact, what's interesting to note is, you know, the writer of Ecclesiastes is on it.
22:06
There's nothing new under the sun.
22:07
Like go read the letters to the churches.
22:09
It's the same stuff we're dealing with right now.
22:11
It's sexual perversion.
22:12
We're not unique.
22:13
No, we're not unique.
22:14
This is not even a unique moment in history.
22:16
We think it is because we have technology, but it's certainly not.
22:20
It's like Satan isn't that creative.
22:24
It's the same script laid across to technological revolution.
22:28
That's all that's happening here.
22:30
Same ideologies, same sacrifice, your baby's, tamolic, it's all the same.
22:36
And so what's new though in this is this idea, and maybe this isn't even new, that if we're
22:44
just nice enough people, and I'm four, like we should be about truth, beauty, and goodness.
22:51
And I loved Sam Albury at the conference where he said, "Behind every prohibition in the scripture
22:56
is the love of God and something beautiful."
22:58
Sure.
22:59
He's not keeping something from you.
23:00
No, absolutely.
23:01
He's giving you something when he says thou shalt not.
23:04
He's not like, why would it's not going to glorify God for us to just begrudgingly be miserable
23:09
people.
23:10
He's trying to hand you.
23:12
This God who is love is trying to hand you true love, true beauty, true goodness, instead
23:18
of the idol that you're trying to put in its place.
23:23
And so as the people of God, our role is to say, no, no, no, this is true.
23:27
This is right.
23:28
This is good.
23:29
This is beautiful, because God is trying to bring us into the fullness of his creative
23:35
design for his own glory.
23:38
And so to just be tolerant of an idea that's actually taking people away from in the hopes
23:46
that they come to is, man, it's Russian roulette.
23:51
It's not even Russian roulette.
23:52
It's just putting a gun to your head.
23:53
I think you're absolutely right.
23:54
And in addition to that, you have to get down to bedrock.
23:59
We love to do univariate analysis.
24:01
We love to go one level deep and then we're going to put our stake in the ground and this
24:04
is our position.
24:05
But no, nothing in this world is that simple, like you have to go multiple levels deep.
24:10
So what I would ask to somebody who's one of those go along to get along.
24:13
I want to be known for what I'm for, not when I'm against Christians, one of those types
24:15
of people.
24:16
I like going straight for the jugular from the beginning and I'll say, what is the reasonable
24:20
middle position on abortion?
24:22
Yeah.
24:23
And then I just sit there quietly because it's like, okay, on one side, we have abortion
24:28
for any reason at any point of pregnancy and paid for by taxpayer dollars.
24:31
And on the other side, we have no.
24:35
What's the reasonable middle there?
24:37
What's the reasonable middle for an eight year old that thinks that they are born in
24:42
the wrong body?
24:43
Is the reasonable middle that we only cut off part of the skin of their arm and sow it
24:47
into some sort of phallic like thing and then sow it on the top of their crotch.
24:50
They feel better when they wear boys underwear.
24:52
Is that is that where we're going with most of these things?
24:55
There is no middle ground.
24:58
And so when we vacillate and when we seed ground, we are seeding ground to the enemy that loves
25:04
it when we're like, ah, well, I don't really know how to argue against this.
25:08
So let's just go ahead and put it at this many weeks or let's put it in this particular
25:12
area.
25:13
You know what I mean?
25:14
Yeah.
25:15
Or just.
25:16
And I think the thing that's most common is just silence.
25:18
Oh, yeah.
25:19
So I mean, I think most evangelicals rather than abdicating just stay quiet, they just
25:29
stay quiet.
25:30
We're going to be about the gospel, which is code for I don't want to get into this
25:33
because it seems, seems icky.
25:35
It's the same thing.
25:36
Whenever Christians are like, you know what, we're just going to be about the gospel.
25:39
We're not going to get into politics.
25:40
And then I just, again, I'm a questioner that's from my sales background.
25:43
I'm like, okay.
25:44
So are you okay with only atheists running the government?
25:47
Yeah.
25:48
Are you okay with only atheists running the school board?
25:49
Well, again, and read, read revelation.
25:51
I mean, it's a political manifesto.
25:53
Right.
25:54
It is to say Jesus is Lord is to say Caesar is not and Domitian who is the emperor literally
25:59
demanded that he be called Lord.
26:02
Right.
26:03
When you say any time you see Jesus and it's funny, like Paul's gospel and Jesus's gospel,
26:09
it's never.
26:10
Hey, let's get out of here and get to glory.
26:12
It's the kingdom of God has come to bear on the earth.
26:15
The kingdom of God is here.
26:17
And so what's interesting in the political arena right now is it seems the right once
26:22
Jesus is king, but doesn't want the kingdom, right?
26:26
They don't, they don't care much for the immigrant or the poor or there's my like freaking get
26:31
over it.
26:32
Pick yourself up by your bootstraps, but then the left, they want the kingdom will not have
26:38
Jesus's king.
26:39
Right.
26:40
And so this is the mess that we're in.
26:41
But what we're called to is king and kingdom, the king and the kingdom.
26:45
So, so that Jesus, Jesus reigns, Jesus's commands are commands, they're not suggestions.
26:52
They're commands, but we also very much need to be about the work of the kingdom, which
26:57
is the poor and the downtrodden and the blind and the oppressed and the, and it's hard for
27:04
people to marry these two.
27:05
So they tend to choose, progressives tend to choose the, the kingdom, but, but a real
27:10
soft if, if he's king at all, like, you know, Jesus is a king that makes suggestions.
27:16
And if you're, if you're interested or you want to, or it makes sense to you, and, and
27:20
then the right is, no, Jesus is king.
27:22
He said what he said, I'm just not going to do some of the stuff that he said.
27:26
And so it's a, it's a hard time to try to find that space of king and kingdom and live
27:34
into it boldly.
27:35
Yeah.
27:36
We all have our own flavor of disobedience.
27:37
We all get to choose our own flavor.
27:38
But there's a whole lot more to talk about with the overcomers, but there's some other
27:42
things I want to get to.
27:43
I will say to the audience that's looking to get into a book like this.
27:46
Again, it's in the show notes.
27:47
I think that this book works really well, and I know, I don't know if there's any small
27:50
group material, but I think this works really well as a chapter by chapter.
27:54
Hey, study this in a group.
27:55
So if you're like me and you got a group of guys out there and you're looking for that
27:59
next book to read, I think this is going to be helpful.
28:01
Certainly, if you're in like kind of a mix, like couples, home group thing, whatever you
28:05
call it at your church, I think this is something that you can easily work through guys.
28:08
It is there in the show notes.
28:10
Now I've been wanting to ask you this, this next thing for a while before I ever knew that
28:13
we were going to, you know, go from being like strangers to buddies and like, you know,
28:17
five minutes.
28:18
But I've told you this before, I've listened.
28:21
So shout out to Kyle Perkins.
28:22
That's, you know, one of my, one of my best friends from a college.
28:25
He told me like in 2007, he's like, Hey, there's this like crazy guy that yells all
28:30
the time.
28:31
And I know you listen to podcasts.
28:32
Sometimes I back up.
28:33
So you have to turn it up.
28:34
Right.
28:35
Yeah.
28:36
Guys, you can't listen to Matt.
28:37
If you haven't listened to him, you can't listen to him going down the highway.
28:38
It's way too frustrating because it's yelling and then whispering mainly yelling, but you
28:40
really have to, you know, deal with the knob quite a bit.
28:43
But this is like just when podcasts were getting going and like I was listening to like art
28:47
of manliness and like one other podcast, he's like, you got to listen to Matt Chandler
28:50
Sermons.
28:51
I've listened to legitimately every single sermon that you've delivered from the TVC stage
28:56
from 2007 until this weekend, this last weekend.
29:00
Okay.
29:01
Anytime you have anybody else come, I just skip it.
29:03
I was like, no, I'm telling you they can go.
29:05
Don't forget about it.
29:06
I don't care.
29:07
I don't listen.
29:08
That's not their podcast.
29:09
It's not Chandler's podcast because like I'm going to, it's going to take me at least 15
29:11
minutes to determine if they're a turd or not.
29:13
And so it's like, what if I don't put turns up there, Kyle?
29:15
You never know.
29:16
I do.
29:17
You never know.
29:18
Sometimes there may be you're broken.
29:19
Who knows?
29:20
Like maybe you don't know every time, but like, so I've listened to everything.
29:21
So that the interesting thing is my wife has known me since April or sorry, August the
29:28
6th of 2005.
29:31
She's been around me essentially every day since then.
29:33
So she can notice things in me that I don't notice in me because she's just been around
29:37
me for that length of time and she can look back over these 20 years and be like, okay,
29:41
this is how he's changed gotten better gotten worse.
29:44
And so I've been able to, since I've just check in with you once a week ish or 45 times
29:49
a year.
29:50
I can kind of see some different things happening and you going in certain directions and having
29:55
certain styles over the years that maybe you didn't notice.
29:58
So I want to throw this out there to you and we did this a little bit over breakfast.
30:02
But I can't tell you exactly when it was, let's say it was two, three years ago.
30:07
I sensed that you were mailing it in a little bit.
30:10
I sense that you had gotten a little bit comfortable and it wasn't the volume that got different.
30:17
It was just the fervor, it was the fire and I was like, something's going on here.
30:22
Maybe he's not really into this material.
30:24
Maybe he picked this, you know, this study and then he regrets it now, but they already
30:28
created the graphics and so we just got to go forward with it.
30:31
And then I felt like you came out of that and you didn't just come out of that subtly.
30:35
It was like you came out of that on a like a chariot that was on fire and it was like
30:39
you were here.
30:41
You kind of went down and you chilled out and then you just shot you hockey stick there
30:45
for a little bit.
30:46
The first question is, am I crazy?
30:48
Did you notice that?
30:49
Or is this the first time you're here?
30:50
Yeah.
30:51
No, no, no, I like, I don't know that I've even talked about this stuff publicly.
30:54
So 2015 for me, probably one of the tougher years, life, not ministry, life, man, we had
31:06
just, we just really screwed up on a care case.
31:09
I mean, really screwed up.
31:12
I think I felt embarrassed, felt like I failed.
31:17
And what sucks about failing when you're a pastor is failing when you're a pastor means
31:22
people that you were given care of, got hurt and some got hurt bad.
31:28
And so I was finishing a James series and felt like it was the first time I'd been in
31:34
the news for something that was not good.
31:37
And that's happened plenty since then.
31:38
Um, I think I got a, like, I think I got like an eight year reprieve because I had brain
31:43
cancer.
31:44
Okay.
31:45
I think for like eight years, they're like, man, that got a brain cancer, leave him alone.
31:47
He might die, leave him alone.
31:49
And man, I, I think we owned that like we should have, we worked to reconcile like we
31:57
should have.
31:59
And I just think something happened to me that year, um, and then there were some things
32:06
going on at home in that three or four years.
32:09
They were really difficult and, and nothing for me to ever share publicly.
32:14
It's not my story.
32:15
And it was heartbreaking and exhausting.
32:18
And I, I felt like I was in this four or five years of just clinging to Jesus for dear life.
32:25
And so, and then I didn't, I didn't want to hurt people like I had.
32:29
I didn't want to, I felt afraid of my prophetic edge.
32:35
And then I was out at our river cabin.
32:37
And I was, I was just on a walk with the Lord, man, once a quarter, I get out there for, you
32:41
know, four days, usually three, four days, and I just fast and pray and just go for walks
32:44
with Jesus and go, sometimes it's awful.
32:47
You know, I'm just stuck in my head the whole time.
32:48
And sometimes Jesus is just waiting for me when I get out of my truck there.
32:51
And I was on a walk with the Lord and felt like the Lord, it didn't feel like a rebuke.
32:56
Man, it didn't.
32:57
It just felt like he, it felt kind.
32:59
It felt fatherly.
33:00
I felt the Lord just go, Hey, do you want to, you want to be done?
33:04
You want to be done and not like do I want to resign or do I want to retire?
33:08
It like he was giving me permission if I wanted to just stay and probably for me was second
33:13
year and just, do you want to just stay in second gear and listen, we'll finish this
33:18
up and you'll be one of the best preachers of your day and you'll be, you know, you'll
33:22
be great.
33:23
It'd be awesome.
33:24
And I just felt everything in me go, Oh, I ain't done.
33:28
And then then came the rebuke and the Lord was like, then I'm going to need you to lead
33:33
again.
33:34
I'm going to need you to stop abdicating, abdicating stuff.
33:37
I'm going to need you to be the guy masking you to be.
33:41
And then I just threw a lot of tears and snot, repented.
33:45
And I wrote a letter to Josh Patterson first, that's my guy.
33:48
And I just said, I, I need these six things to change immediately or I've got to go.
33:55
I've got to go build this that I feels in my heart.
33:59
And to me, that was my fleece.
34:03
I think the Lord had given me permission.
34:05
I just, that was my fleece.
34:06
And, and so I sent it to Josh and if Josh was like, I don't see it, then I just in my
34:11
heart gone, then my time at the village is over and I'm going to go do whatever the Lord
34:15
has for me next, but this is done, this chapter is over.
34:18
And so I sent that to Josh and Josh said, not only are these six true, but I'd add these
34:22
two.
34:23
And I was like, Oh my gosh, yes, those two.
34:24
And then gave that letter to the elders and the elders like run Matt run.
34:30
And then I just, I just felt like like I didn't go from second to third.
34:35
I went from second to fifth.
34:37
And I just felt alive in the work again, man.
34:39
So you know, you were, you're on it.
34:40
It was a long hard season for multiple reasons, the 2015 stuff, the stuff that we were dealing
34:46
with at home.
34:47
But again, is nobody's business?
34:49
I've got one person in my family.
34:51
It's their story.
34:52
Show me my story to tell and it was, it was some of the most heartbreaking, disorienting
35:00
dark seasons of our lives.
35:03
And we just didn't see it coming.
35:07
And so I was just stuck, man.
35:08
I was just stuck in it.
35:11
And the Lord was kind to just let me be stuck and let me cling to him and let me downshift
35:16
and then he circled back around and he's like, okay, we're good.
35:19
You're good.
35:20
Let's go.
35:21
And man, I have just felt gosh, the last four years, I felt so alive in the work.
35:26
I felt so alive.
35:27
I mean, I just feel like I'm constantly just I'll mean with energy for the kingdom.
35:34
So you mentioned that this is kind of the first time you've talked about it publicly.
35:37
Like, you know, why not talk about it more?
35:40
Why share now?
35:41
Yeah, I don't know.
35:42
Except that I feel like distance creates, distance creates clarity.
35:46
So you can see kind of maybe why you were going, Oh, I didn't know I was in second gear.
35:50
Oh, yeah, I had no idea I was in second gear.
35:54
I had no idea I was in second gear.
35:56
I didn't know I was off.
35:58
I didn't.
35:59
I swear I didn't.
36:00
I didn't feel off.
36:01
I felt like I was given all I had.
36:03
And I think what I had in that season was just less than I couldn't see it.
36:06
And and nobody was telling me it was happening.
36:10
And maybe Lauren sensed it a little bit, but man, she was in it with me.
36:14
She was in it with me.
36:15
Wow.
36:16
And it's in that season that other hits came and other public things were happening and
36:21
other.
36:22
And it was just like five years of wave after wave after wave.
36:26
And man, we were just trying to survive.
36:28
Really, we were we were just clinging to each other, clinging to our crew and and trying
36:32
to make it.
36:34
And then the Lord was like, okay, we're good.
36:37
Let's go.
36:38
Well, it almost sounds like, I mean, there's a difference between giving 100% of second
36:43
gear and giving 100%.
36:45
Yeah.
36:46
And it seems like you had kind of gotten low to sleep because you were, you know, you
36:50
were redlining, but you were in second gear and you thought you were flying and you just
36:54
weren't.
36:55
You were just flat out in second gear.
36:56
Yeah.
36:57
I think that's right.
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37:27
So, okay, so with that in mind, you're talking to a decent sized audience and there's guys
37:34
that are not, there are pastors in our audience certainly, but there are guys that just feel
37:38
like maybe they're there, maybe something got dislodged for them and their, their heart
37:44
or their brain or their soul or whatever in this, this whole arena and they're like,
37:48
Oh man, I've been in second gear with my family.
37:50
I've been in second gear with my business.
37:52
I've been in second gear with my calling because again, people think you're called
37:55
the ministry.
37:56
You just do a job.
37:57
No, there are people that are building businesses to the glory of God or working in a cubicle
38:01
to the glory of God because that is where they were placed at a particular time for
38:04
a particular purpose.
38:06
But maybe talk to that person that's in the audience right now that's felt like, Oh my
38:10
gosh, I've been stuck.
38:11
I've been in second gear and it's just, it's not really going well for me.
38:14
I guess what would your advice be to them?
38:16
Yeah.
38:17
So my, my experience, that's what I've got to go off of is the recognition of that's
38:22
what's happening is a divine mercy.
38:25
Like, you can only see what you can see, man, you can, you can only see what you can see.
38:31
And so for me, I needed the Lord to kind of help me see, Hey, you're, you're, you're, you're
38:40
in second, bro, and, and, and here's what was crazy about that moment.
38:44
Like I said, until the, then I'm going to need you to, I, it sounded like he was like,
38:51
given me the choice to stay there.
38:54
I mean, I don't know, which that's weird in and of itself.
38:56
I agree.
38:57
I don't, I don't know how to make theological sense of that, but it was just to me, it was
39:00
as clear as I, I think I've ever experienced the Lord.
39:04
Just they were such compassion, like he knew it had been hard.
39:08
He knew I was worn out, he knew, and then he knew, no, no, no, I, I've got something
39:13
for you.
39:14
I'm going to give it to you, but you've got to tell me you want it.
39:18
You've got to tell me you want it because it ain't like the arrows have stopped flying.
39:21
It ain't like the, the harsh critique or even some of the struggles that've been around
39:25
my house.
39:26
It's not like everything's, you know, and I ain't living no Mary Poppins life.
39:30
And he wanted to know if I wanted back in the fight before I knew I was even, I didn't
39:35
know I was out of it.
39:38
And, and so man, like right now you're listening to Kyle and I talk and you're like, Oh crap,
39:44
that's me.
39:45
Well praise God.
39:46
There's that that's the mercy of God.
39:48
This is like picking up your face going, Hey man, I get it.
39:51
You want to run?
39:53
You want to get back into the invitation, I think is the awareness because nobody wants
39:59
to be in second gear.
40:01
Nobody wants to be in second gear.
40:02
And then, and so if you're being quickened or awakened to the fact you are, then I think
40:08
what happened to me is probably happening to you right now.
40:12
There's an invitation from God to go, Hey, how about I'll, I'll give you, I'll give you
40:19
some gears, but you've got to move towards me.
40:21
You've got to like, man, I had to write a letter, I had to write myself clear.
40:25
What, what's happened to me?
40:27
What needs to change?
40:29
And then is this organization that I've been building in second gear ready for me to come
40:33
back in fifth?
40:35
Can it do that?
40:36
Can it survive that?
40:37
Then, and God gave me the, the path forward, then the path forward for me was my guy.
40:45
I mean, my, my Jonathan, the lover of my soul, the guy that I've been doing this with for
40:50
20 years, not 20 years at the time, 20 years now.
40:54
As he see this, and is he willing to run up that hill and maybe God will give the Philistines
41:01
into our hands?
41:02
Will he do that?
41:04
And I wrote the letter with a great deal of vulnerability and, and to me, that was the
41:09
fleece that was the, that was the first shift to write the letter to like, take the risk
41:16
of either rejection or like, what am I going to do to support my family if I have to walk
41:22
here?
41:23
It was clear to me.
41:24
It was clear.
41:25
I've got to go here.
41:26
And if I can't go here here, then I'm going here somewhere else.
41:30
So I'm putting my life in your hands and that was shipped to third gear.
41:35
And then the meeting with Josh is that, okay, now we're in fourth gear and then the meeting
41:38
with the elders.
41:39
Now we're in fifth gear and I've got my elders going, run, we're with you.
41:43
And now I'm back in the, now I'm back at it.
41:46
But at any point there, the Lord could have gone, yeah, we're going to get to fifth.
41:50
We're going to get to fifth way over here.
41:52
We're going to have to start a whole new thing to get to fifth again.
41:55
But that's not, that's not what he had for me.
41:58
And so if somebody's like, oh, God, I'm in second, then okay, what's the next step?
42:03
Is the step going to your wife and going, man, I've been mailing it in.
42:05
I don't want to mail it in.
42:06
Here's what I'm doing tonight.
42:07
I'm putting the kids to bed.
42:09
You know what?
42:10
I've been mailing it in.
42:11
Here's what we're doing.
42:12
You and I are going on a date.
42:13
And I know we hardly have any money to do that.
42:15
And so it's just going to be Taco Bell.
42:17
But it's you and me with 69 cent burritos because I have been mailing it in, babe, and I don't
42:24
want to mail it in anymore.
42:25
I want to pursue you.
42:26
I want to cultivate your soul.
42:27
I want to love you like Christ loves the church.
42:29
It could be, I mean, wherever it's manifesting itself, we lean into the rebuke.
42:37
We lean into what God makes us aware of.
42:41
And I think this is true.
42:42
If you're in first gear or third gear or fourth gear, wherever you are, gosh, you could be
42:46
in fifth and the Lord can be going, hey, we need to throttle back a little bit here.
42:50
And it's like, great.
42:51
Where do I lean in?
42:52
Where do I say yes?
42:53
You might be in fifth and about to blow.
42:56
And so the rebuke for you might be, hey, man, you're running in fifth and you run it in
43:01
fifth is causing some pretty significant damage to your family.
43:05
You run it in fifth is stopping you from becoming the three AM friend is stopping you from cultivating
43:11
that King's table is stopped.
43:13
So brother, you need to down shift so I can get you ready for what I've got coming for
43:17
you.
43:18
So I just think wherever the spirit is revealing to you, wherever you're having that conversation
43:23
with the Lord, for me, it was compassion and then invitation.
43:28
But, but for you, it might be a smack to the bottom and get out of fifth.
43:33
Right.
43:34
I'm just saying, brothers, you, you heed the prompting of the spirit, whether he's showing
43:39
you that from the word or he's showing you that through a bug from a friend or that that's
43:44
the, I think that's the sauce.
43:47
That's the secret stuff to just have the courage to go.
43:51
I don't know how this ends, but I'm taking my first step towards you.
43:54
When I think in addition to that, Matt, it's a call to down shift from what you were talking
44:00
about earlier, the morally neutral lesser love.
44:02
Yeah.
44:03
So maybe you're in fifth gear in jujitsu, but you know, you're stuck in first gear with
44:07
your wife and first gear with your kids or something like that.
44:09
So that's getting into priorities, which is not necessarily where I want to go with that,
44:12
but even stepping back, even a step further from everything that you've mentioned, you
44:17
put yourself in a place where you decrease the level of noise from the world where you
44:23
could actually hear the prompting of the Holy spirit.
44:25
Got to have it.
44:26
So I'm the worst at this every waking moment.
44:29
I've got my AirPods on me.
44:31
They're right behind me.
44:32
I know where they're always at because if I'm sitting at a stoplight, it's one of those
44:36
stoplights.
44:37
It takes three minutes to turn green.
44:38
That's six minutes of podcasting, baby, because two times speed, but at the same time, I'm
44:43
choking out silence, which is when I can hear the Holy spirit most clearly because sometimes
44:49
people like God's not talking to me.
44:50
It's like, is it loud where you're at?
44:53
Yeah.
44:54
Because he might be talking in a normal voice.
44:55
Yeah.
44:56
You can't hear him.
44:57
And do you want him to yell at you?
44:58
Yeah.
44:59
I don't want him to yell at me.
45:00
I'd rather be able to hear him.
45:01
That's part of it is as well. And when you do that, and it sounds like this is what you
45:06
did, you know, with Lauren and then with Josh and then with the rest of the elders and
45:10
all that, is you were able to do a little bit of an after action report on that period
45:15
of your life and realize because you can't connect the dots looking forward, only looking
45:18
backwards and you're like, wait a minute, this just wasn't a bad thing that happened
45:22
that turned into a bad season.
45:24
This just wasn't a this and I wasn't just tired and I wasn't just exhausted.
45:27
And you can from a more theologically astute position look back on this particular time
45:32
period and be able to define the issues that got you there in the first place by being
45:36
able to do that after action report.
45:38
And one thing that I noticed as well, and we talked about this a little bit, is some
45:44
of the same topics that you had been talking about for all these years, your tone changed
45:49
on some of these topics, which may or may not have something to do at that time period,
45:52
perhaps, but specifically the one and you've gotten a lot of crap because you're a prominent
45:56
pastor.
45:57
But one of the things you got the most crap for is where it seemed like you went from
46:00
the racial reconciliation talk to racial grievance.
46:04
And the number one example that the people love to use and use it as, you know, example
46:09
and exhibit A is your MOK 50 sermon that you delivered.
46:14
And the thing about that sermon is I had questions about it, but I forget when if it's earlier
46:19
this week or the last time we did dinner or something like that, you said a statement
46:24
that frankly shocked me, you said, if I could take back one sermon that I've given in my
46:29
entire life of which there are hundreds, if not thousands of sermons, you said that one
46:34
would be the one that you would take back.
46:35
Well, I think I would tweak it.
46:36
I think I said some things in it that I regret, and I said some things in it that I still
46:41
very much believe in standby.
46:44
And so there are probably one, one part of that sermon in particular that I was like,
46:51
"I think that's off, I think I wish I could have that back."
46:54
Which part?
46:55
So I think specifically the idea of hiring a black 8 over a white 10 or something to
47:07
that effect.
47:08
I don't remember the exact numbers.
47:09
I know I said a black 8 because the black friends that I have is like, "Oh, black 8?
47:14
Were black 8s or something like that?"
47:17
They weren't capping on me for that.
47:19
They were just poking at me a little bit of that.
47:23
So that's the piece I really hated about that sermon.
47:26
That's the one I want back.
47:28
But overall, the sermon or the idea behind the sermon, what makes us not be able to see,
47:34
I still very much believe in most of what's in that sermon, there are just pieces of it.
47:39
I think I overspoke or spoke ignorantly or couldn't see as clearly as maybe I feel like
47:45
I see now.
47:46
Okay.
47:47
Let's take that chunk specifically because that's the chunk that everybody clips, right?
47:50
You spoke for 50 minutes and people take this two-minute thing where you talked about the
47:55
Anglo-8 and the Black 7 or something like that and everyone took it to a different degree.
48:00
If you could have that back and take that chunk out and edit it, what would you say to
48:05
get across the point that you right now to this day actually believe in and stand by?
48:10
I want God's man or God's woman for the spot and I think that's based on calling, that's
48:19
based on competency, that's based on character, that's based on it can't be based on the color
48:28
of skin or I'm already, I'm part of the same problem I'm trying to fix.
48:33
One of the things I argue about in the book is the temptation we have in fighting even
48:40
the enemy and the work of the enemy sometimes is to pick up the weapons of the enemy to try
48:45
to fight the enemies with and then you're guilty of the very thing you're trying to
48:51
eradicate and I think that's what I did.
48:54
I was using the enemy's tools against the enemy and joined him and joined him and yeah,
49:02
that's the, I think it, I believe in meritocracy.
49:06
I really do.
49:08
I really do believe that's right.
49:10
Now, the reality is that there are plenty of black tens and men, if I can hire black
49:20
tens and Latino tens and Indian tens, I want to do that.
49:24
I want the best man or woman who's got the right character calling competency and I would
49:29
add chemistry to our team, I want that person running with me, I want him in the trench
49:35
with me, I want him in and if they're, if they're brown praise God and if they're white
49:39
praise God, if they're yellow praise God, I just want the right men and women in the
49:44
trench with me and that, that's where I think that's where I misstepped pretty hard there.
49:49
And it's easy to oppose.
49:51
It's really hard to propose and so when someone's like, I oppose what he said right there.
49:56
Got it.
49:57
I'm with you.
49:58
What would you propose that he said?
49:59
I don't know.
50:00
Yeah.
50:01
But I'm mad.
50:02
I'll tell you that much.
50:03
I'm mad about it.
50:04
And the thing is, is as a content creator, which technically we're both that were other
50:06
things, but we are both that when you're creating content and you put it out there for the world,
50:11
like I don't delete old content.
50:13
Right?
50:14
No one does.
50:15
So I'd give the generalized advice of you should always be able to look back on who you
50:17
were five years ago and at least be somewhat embarrassed.
50:19
Wait, I thought that way I wore those, like just that type of thing.
50:23
And so I have people that'll discover my show were on like episode, you know, five 90
50:27
something, they'll go back to episode one and I'm like, Oh dear, sweet Jesus, like what
50:31
was I saying?
50:32
Like I felt like I couldn't even read in 2017 when we started this and they'll get mad
50:36
about something from episode 11 and I'm like, Hey man, I'm, I'm mad too.
50:41
But I thought that at the time and you got my stream of consciousness while I was recording
50:45
on my $50 mic and my closet at my house.
50:47
And that's just what, what I gave to you and that's just going to be there.
50:50
It's going to be there for forever.
50:52
Now if you ask me my opinion now on that subject matter, I might have, even though I hate the
50:56
phraseology and more nuanced perspective on that, I might have had some different life
51:00
experiences that have informed my opinion a little bit differently on that.
51:04
But it's out there.
51:05
So I, I'm the type of guy that I still think about strikeouts that I had in high school
51:10
and balls that I dropped and intramural football, like I'm that type of guy.
51:13
I just can't be that way with my content and you can't really be that way with your
51:16
sermons either.
51:17
But I can sense that both of us are getting hungry for steak because that is what is waiting
51:22
for us.
51:23
So this is the last thing I want to talk to you about.
51:24
Okay.
51:25
A favorite Matt Chandler moment of all time.
51:27
Wow.
51:28
Okay.
51:29
I'm ready for this.
51:30
I've listened to all the sermons.
51:31
I've read the books.
51:32
I've done the things like I went from fanboy to buddy, but let's go back to my fanboy days.
51:35
Okay.
51:36
When you went to Steven Furtick's church, oh, wow, we're doing it.
51:39
We're doing it.
51:40
We're going there.
51:41
We're going there.
51:42
I don't even care if you're assistant saying no, no, no, don't talk about it.
51:43
Like I'm going to block her out.
51:45
Okay.
51:46
All right.
51:47
We're talking about it.
51:48
So I don't remember the, do you remember the name of the event?
51:49
Code orange revival.
51:50
Code orange revival.
51:51
So this was back in what year?
51:52
I don't even know.
51:55
I don't have anyone in my earpiece.
51:56
I can give me the right answer.
51:57
But anyway, it was back in the day.
51:58
Yeah.
51:59
It's even Furtick invites you to come to this thing and it's just like what you would do.
52:03
You host as a church.
52:04
It's like what Joby does with saturated.
52:06
You bring in some heavy hitters that are kind of like your type of people and they deliver
52:10
a message to your congregation and you're just there for it.
52:15
And you go up there and you melt Steven Furtick down around him because he was awkwardly sitting
52:21
in a chair on stage, which I thought was weird.
52:24
It was just packed.
52:25
There was nowhere to sit.
52:26
It was a full night.
52:27
Nah.
52:28
He's just, he just needed everyone to see him.
52:29
But anyway, it was nice of you to say that, but you get up there and you say the greatest
52:33
line in the history of Matt Chandler and it was you screaming at the congregation.
52:38
You are not David.
52:40
Yeah.
52:41
And the whole point that you were making, well, I'll let you talk about it.
52:43
But the point that I took away was is we read the Bible and we're looking for who we are
52:48
in the story.
52:49
Yeah.
52:50
We think we're David.
52:51
We think our problems at work are Goliath and these types of things and you, and that's
52:57
the Steven Furtick way of exegeting the scripture.
53:00
If you can say exegetes, this is what happens at that particular church season is what I'm
53:03
saying.
53:04
It's not what you're saying.
53:05
So you can be, you can be careful and you can be diplomatic and all that garbage.
53:08
I don't know.
53:09
Okay.
53:10
But it was my favorite moment because at the time, like I had read Steven Furtick's first
53:14
book, he had come and spoken at my church.
53:17
And when he started to lift weights, I'm like, that guy must have better words to say because
53:20
his biceps are bigger.
53:21
And so it's like, I was like, potentially leaning in and then you went there and it's
53:24
like, no, you can't approach the Bible this way.
53:28
You can't approach ministry this way.
53:30
And I don't care who's listening.
53:31
I'm here to melt things down.
53:33
So I don't even have a question, Matt, but it's like, did they know what you were going
53:37
to talk about?
53:38
Did you submit a trip?
53:39
Here's what's funny about the code orange thing.
53:42
One, um, I had met Steven at, at the elephant room with James McDonald.
53:47
That's where I met him.
53:48
I didn't know a lot about him.
53:49
I had not read his book.
53:50
I didn't know a lot about elevation.
53:51
Right.
53:52
I really didn't.
53:53
Uh, I, I had preached that exact message three or four weeks earlier at the village.
54:00
I mean, you heard me today.
54:01
Right.
54:02
I rarely, unless I get asked some sort of nuanced, can you preach on this?
54:07
I rarely write new sermons for things outside the village.
54:10
My calling is the people at the village.
54:12
So even today's sermon was a mashup of some of Malachi series and some of beyond and then
54:18
I contextualized it to the audience and went after it.
54:22
And, and so I, I didn't, what's funny, the, the Twitter thing back then was so, it was
54:27
just so not helpful.
54:29
Um, I did not go to Furtick's church to undermine him or attack him.
54:36
I preached that.
54:37
I didn't know enough.
54:38
I didn't know enough.
54:39
I didn't know enough.
54:40
Okay.
54:41
And I know this is what Steven thinks.
54:42
Steven still thinks like I, I had preached that message at the village and the Holy spirit
54:46
just blew.
54:48
And so there it felt like fresh energy on that fresh, like the ghost was using that message.
54:54
And so I had screamed, you're not David at the men and women of the village church, three
54:58
or four weeks before that.
55:00
And, and so when they were like, what do you want to preach on?
55:03
And I was like, I want to do Psalm 23.
55:05
I want to call it goddess for God.
55:07
He here.
55:08
I just preached at the village.
55:09
The Lord's moving through it.
55:11
They're like praise God, come and bring it.
55:13
And so I didn't even know I was getting myself in trouble.
55:16
I swear I didn't.
55:17
I, and I would like to say this.
55:19
I don't think I would.
55:21
If I had a problem with Furtick, I'd have had that conversation with Furtick.
55:25
I certainly wouldn't used his own pulpit to undermine or attack him.
55:29
And even after the fallout, I was trying to say, listen, get on, get on the podcast.
55:35
I just preached this at the village.
55:36
I didn't write it for court owned revival.
55:38
I wrote it for the men and women of the village church.
55:41
And so there really wasn't ever, it's funny how this has just become like legendary.
55:46
And, and I'm like, it, okay, I, well, I'm glad that this, because I, men, I believe every
55:50
word of that sermon to this day.
55:53
But I didn't know until afterwards.
55:55
I really didn't know until afterwards that, oh man, that's how he reads the Bible.
55:59
That's how he, I swear I did not go in trying to burn a guy's house down that he invited
56:04
me into.
56:05
And then I just, man, I've got one gear, like, what do you think, what, how do you think
56:10
I was going to show up whenever I've gotten in trouble on the road?
56:13
I've been like, did you listen to me before I came?
56:16
So this is the full, this is the town.
56:18
So the beginning of that scene is Ben Affleck walking into his best friend's place and being
56:22
like, Hey, I need your help.
56:24
You can't ask me about later.
56:25
I'll never tell you.
56:26
And we're going to hurt some people.
56:27
Well, who's car we going to take?
56:29
So in the scene, they go and they, they beat up these two dudes and they pour drugs all
56:32
over them.
56:33
So that if they call the police, they're covering a crystal meth or whatever.
56:36
And then his buddy goes off all half cocked and like shoots the guy in the leg a couple
56:40
of times.
56:41
And then Affleck, when they got back in the car, was like, what was that?
56:43
We're just shooting people now.
56:44
And he's like, Hey, you brought me.
56:46
Yeah.
56:47
And so that's like the ultimate you brought me moments like what, like, cause I've gone
56:50
places before and I've presented in my way and then people get somewhat offended.
56:54
They're like, I just wasn't really a fan of your tone.
56:56
I'm like, have you listened to literally anything I've ever said?
57:01
Like this, this is my tone and you're shocked by it.
57:03
It's like going to a concert for a band you purport to listen to and you're like, I don't
57:06
like any of this music.
57:07
It's like it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
57:10
Yeah.
57:11
So are you going to go back if he invites you to another or certainly will not.
57:15
Are you sure?
57:16
I'm, I'm nearly a hundred percent positive.
57:20
What if we could like maybe get a meeting of the minds together?
57:23
Cause I just want to see a part two.
57:25
That's it.
57:26
I was like, you're probably not going to see a part two.
57:27
Maybe it doesn't get to happen to his church.
57:28
Maybe we can do it at some other person's church.
57:30
Is there a way that we could like set that up?
57:31
Well, we actually probably a year and a half later.
57:33
So I, I got on the phone with him the next day, like we could just feel this.
57:38
Something happened here.
57:39
We were like, Lauren and I were super confused.
57:42
I'm telling you, I'm like, Lauren was like, I'm just optimum, you know, Lauren's like,
57:45
something's not right here.
57:46
And I'm like, what do you mean?
57:48
So like, did you not?
57:49
Did you hear him?
57:50
I was like, what do you mean?
57:51
What do you mean?
57:52
What do you said?
57:53
Well, you were preaching.
57:54
I was like, yeah, I thought we were talking about it at dinner.
57:55
We ended up not going to dinner with him.
57:56
And then, um, and then man, nothing.
57:59
And then they, they pulled the sermon offline, which is what made Twitter blow up.
58:03
Yeah.
58:04
And then, um, and so I called him the next day, got on the, I didn't get him.
58:08
I got his voicemail and then hopped on the flight, flew home.
58:10
He had called me back while we were in the air and he was like, man, why don't we just
58:14
go our separate ways?
58:15
Why don't you go serve the Lord?
58:16
I'm going to serve the Lord.
58:17
It just probably isn't a good that you and I just probably aren't a good mix.
58:21
But I don't, I don't really like.
58:23
So I just called him right back and I was like, Hey, what helped me understand what happened.
58:27
And, and he, he thought I undermined him and he thought I came there specifically to,
58:33
to kind of subversively work against him and brought up some things.
58:36
And I just kept going, Hey man, I, I preached that at the village, Hey man, I preach that
58:41
at the village.
58:42
Hey man, I preach that at the village brought up some stuff from the elephant room.
58:46
And I was like, no, no, I, I was like, I, I, if you remember, I did not come hard at
58:51
you.
58:52
It took James going, wait, now hold on for a second because he thought we were being too
58:55
nice to each other.
58:56
And so he tried to provoke.
58:58
And so I, I, I brought up a clip that I'd seen you brought up a clip you had seen.
59:02
And then that was the conversation, but brother, I am not showing up at your house and trapping
59:06
on your floor.
59:07
I'm not doing that.
59:09
And then, um, and then that was that we didn't, like, you know, we'd been texting a little
59:12
bit before that, like, cause he was the thing about like, like Stephen would like text and
59:16
go, Hey, if you were going to teach on the favor of God, how would you, how would you
59:20
talk about God's favor?
59:21
And I'd send him some thoughts, uh, he, we would just interact like that.
59:26
And then, um, and then all that stopped, of course, after that, and then about a year
59:30
later, we were at the same conference together, and he came up and he said, hi, he asked me
59:33
how ministry was.
59:34
I, I thanked him.
59:35
He was going well, ask him how life was, ask him about Holly, ask him about the church.
59:39
And it was cordial.
59:41
And then I, I have not seen him since.
59:44
All right.
59:45
Well, I think we should maybe do a second elephant room or a second one of those.
59:49
I know somebody would like, no one's doing that right now.
59:51
And I just think it would be great to have a couple of guys that land in different theological
59:56
places that have a brotherly relationship have the conversation theologically about certain
1:00:04
things.
1:00:05
Because we've gotten to that in modernity has been Justin Briarley when he does the unbelievable
1:00:08
podcast, which is not doing anymore.
1:00:10
So he's not doing those debates and things like that.
1:00:12
I was on that show a couple of times and I thought those worked out great.
1:00:14
So we can see, uh, we can talk about that a little bit more over dinner, but typically
1:00:18
at the end of my interviews, I get through all my questions and all that type of stuff.
1:00:21
But then is there anything else that you want to share with my audience before we go each
1:00:24
day?
1:00:25
Yeah.
1:00:26
I, I want men to step into their God given calling that there is such high high high high
1:00:35
heights available to them and, and where men go, the family goes, where the family goes,
1:00:41
the culture goes and, and we're, we're in the mess that we're in right now.
1:00:47
I think because a large swath of men have abdicated the role that God's given them and they've
1:00:53
done it because they bought into the live toxic masculinity and I get it, man.
1:00:57
I get all the pressure and all the weight and all the, but the pressure and weight is
1:01:03
meant to make you stronger, not buckle underneath.
1:01:08
And so even, and I'm not, I mean, I listen, I don't care if you buy the book.
1:01:11
I want you to, but I listen, I, I am so hungry for renewal of biblical masculinity, biblical
1:01:20
masculinity, self-sacrificing, Jesus loving, vulnerable, fierce, deep that man, I'm grateful
1:01:29
for what you do. And, and I'm hoping that in the next decade or so, and you're starting
1:01:35
to see some reverberations of it even now, a quickening and awakening among men, but you,
1:01:41
you will have to do, you will have to do the hard work.
1:01:45
You will have to lean in, you will have to push past your fears and, and all I'm describing
1:01:52
right there is courage, brothers, and as we were talking just a little bit earlier, you
1:01:56
will have to lean into that first, next step in pursuing that love relationship with Jesus
1:02:02
Christ. It's going to turn you into the kind of man you're so hungry to be.
1:02:08
I can, couldn't end it any better. I really appreciate your time. I appreciate your ministry.
1:02:12
And the guys of this podcast know how important your ministry has been to me personally in
1:02:16
kind of developing my personal theology, but also I was put on this planet to equipment
1:02:21
to push back darkness. And I can't do that without other fire breathing lines like you
1:02:25
and Joby and Piper and kind of the whole crew. So I just appreciate everything you've done
1:02:29
for us, but I think it's time for them.
1:02:30
Come on, let's get some steak. Let's do it.
1:02:32
There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed part two of my interview with Matt Chandler, but
1:02:36
before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Adam Dalton life for
1:02:39
mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental
1:02:42
and physical resilience. So I've got a link to his Amazon link for the book, The Overcomer.
1:02:47
So guys, go and check that out. The Overcomer's God's vision for you to thrive in an age of
1:02:50
anxiety and outrage. I've got a link to all of his other books there on Amazon. So you
1:02:54
can check that out. Also a link to the village church website and the axe 29 website. Thank
1:02:58
you guys so much for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please
1:03:01
subscribe rate and leave us a positive five star review. If you want to come speak live
1:03:05
at your event or on your podcast to shoot me an email to info@undontin.life. That's
1:03:10
I N F O at undontin.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our
1:03:15
website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming
1:03:18
your way. Just go to www dot undontin.life. And also we want to thank the band Holy Name
1:03:24
for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our
1:03:28
song Perpetua, which is off their self titled debut album on Face Down Records. The links
1:03:32
are in the description. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness.
1:03:38
Keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:03:48
[Music]