0:00
When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed! sponsor
0:05
jobs. It gives your job posts the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with
0:10
the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually
0:15
interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75
0:19
sponsor job credit at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions
0:25
apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed! sponsor jobs.
0:50
Alright guys, we got a very special guest on the podcast today. This is the guy that
1:00
I have probably mentioned the most on this podcast in terms of preachers that I have
1:04
listened to, and I am so excited to bring an interview with him to you guys, and that
1:10
is with the one, the only Matt Chandler. So as I told you guys from the very beginning
1:13
of this podcast back in 2017, Matt Chandler has been like my dude, and so I have listened
1:19
to every single one of the sermons that he has preached from the the Bill Church stage
1:24
since 2009, maybe 2008, 2009. And so his books, his preaching, and the things that he has
1:31
done in ministry have had a profound impact on me. And just recently, just you know, this
1:36
spring, he's become a buddy of mine. And so Joby Martin is good friends with him. And
1:40
so he introduced me to him because he's got a new book coming out. And I went down to
1:43
Dallas and I got to train some jiu-jitsu with him. And we just became fast friends.
1:46
So we've broken bread together. We spent a good amount of time together. And we've got
1:50
some more stuff, you know, that I can't talk about right now that we'll be doing here in
1:53
the very near future. That'll be amazing and awesome. But for those of you that don't
1:57
know who in the world I'm talking about, he is a preacher. He's a pastor. He's an author.
2:00
He is the senior pastor of the village church in Texas. He has been so since 2002. He's
2:04
also the executive director of the board of the acts 29 church network. So he is authored
2:09
a bunch of different books. But my favorite of the books that he's written is the explicit
2:13
gospel. So we have the 100 books every modern Christian man should read list on our website.
2:17
It's on donta.life/booklist. And the explicit gospel is right there in the Christian section.
2:23
He's also written a book called take heart and he's got a new book out that is out now.
2:26
If you're listening to this on time, it's called the overcomers God's vision for you
2:30
to thrive in an age of anxiety and outrage. And so the cool thing about this is I was
2:36
down at the X 29 conference. And so we got to hang out and, you know, got to get to know
2:39
each other a little bit more. And you know, it was all kinds of fun. But then we actually
2:43
filmed this interview at his house. Okay. So he's got like a little shop and you know,
2:47
he's got a place where he does his work or all that. So we just set up right there. And
2:51
so we talked for nearly two hours. And so as opposed to just dumping it all out there
2:55
to you with all the different subject matters, I decided to break it up into two parts. So
2:58
this is part one today. So we spent a good amount of time at the very beginning of this
3:02
conversation talking about jujitsu, because he's almost 50 years old and a year or two
3:08
ago, he just was like, okay, let's start learning murder yoga. Like that seems like
3:12
it'd be a tremendous use of my time. And so we really dig into that because, you know,
3:17
as guys age, they tend to get into things like golf, or I'm trying to think of anything
3:24
else. But if it's like a physical activity, it's usually something like that. It's kind
3:27
of leisurely, you know, you can drink the entire time you're doing it like you don't
3:31
have to be athletic at all. You don't have to be in shape at all that you just I'm just
3:35
going to start walking or something like that. But he decided to get into jujitsu, something
3:41
that I feel like getting into it at the age of 30 that I got into late. But you know,
3:45
he's like, nah, you know, we're going to full send it in my late 40s and get into this.
3:48
And guys, when I tell you he's into it, he is into it. Like this isn't just something
3:52
that he does for Instagram. This guy trains all the time. He trains at double five down
3:56
to Dallas with Raphael formiga. And I mean, it's a legit school. He competes like it's
4:02
really a different level with him. So we really break into that, that subject matter quite
4:06
a bit. But we also talk about the X 29 conference. We talked about the sermon that he presented
4:11
at the very end of the conference, because Joby let off the conference. And then he had
4:15
John Piper there in the middle. And then we have Matt Chandler close it out because it
4:19
was it was very fiery, right? And it was very direct. And he was calling some people out,
4:23
but he was also trying to burn off some stuff in some people that were in the room. And it
4:28
was very forward. It was very much so my style, maybe not everyone else's style. But it was
4:33
just very interesting, the different high points that he hit in that sermon. So we talk
4:37
about other things as well in this part one. And then we'll get to part two later on this
4:41
week. But guys, I'm so excited to bring this to you. It's a long time coming. He's actually
4:46
the very first person to deny me an interview request. So it wasn't even him. But like long
4:52
time ago, he was released in a book. And I was like, Hey, I'd love to have you on the show.
4:55
This was whenever I was still recording in a closet, you know, at a different part of
4:59
my house. And like I didn't have video or anything like that. But his staff was basically
5:03
like, yeah, he's basically too busy. So I kind of feel like this is coming full circle
5:07
here a little bit. He was the first person to like let me down like dad gum and I really
5:11
want to talk to him on my show. And now here he is for a two part and we're going to be
5:14
doing more stuff here soon. So guys, without further ado, let's get into it.
5:19
So Matt Chandler, normally I would say welcome to a Dawn to life of man's podcast, but we're
5:22
currently in your bunker. I think is what this is. This is like where you should have
5:26
seen it before we redid it. Okay. So when did you redo it? And what did you do?
5:29
So it was a COVID learning for me that I don't have any space at home to work. So I would
5:36
be at the kitchen island. My wife is, it's just like a little French farmhouse over there
5:40
bro. And it's like open concept. And so I'm like, working from the kitchen island go
5:46
turn that off be quiet. Just got headphones on and working. In fact, I wrote this at my
5:50
book at the kitchen island. I say in the, in the acknowledgments, hey, thank you family.
5:56
Thank you for that year. Right. I was like, turn that down, get that off. You know, and
6:00
so this had been, this had been just the only space in the house that we hadn't redone.
6:07
We bought it and it was a, it was a guy that owns like a ninja training school or something.
6:14
Like, you know, like, yeah, you know what I'm saying? And, and it was a, I mean, I don't
6:18
know what it was a disaster. Like there was a, and maybe you would love this. Maybe your
6:21
listeners would love it. But there was a pull up bar in the master bath where he liked
6:26
to rep it out before you know. So it's needless say this was a single man in between bowel
6:30
movements. You know, take a doll. Yeah. You know, work some not kipping pull ups were
6:35
like real pull up and then take a shower. So Lauren gutted that, but we ran out of cheddar.
6:41
So this was, I mean, I maybe I'll show you a picture after this. It was purple carpet
6:46
up the walls. Like, well, what this was, is it was a place that if my son or daughter
6:53
wanted to have six friends spend the night, we'd be like, absolutely above the garage.
6:57
Go in the purple car. There were holes in these walls or like, there's a little, I don't
7:01
think people see it, but there's a little like crow's nest up there and they would put
7:05
the bed mattress down and jump off. They loved it. And I just said, well, it's mine now.
7:10
Okay. And so we gutted this place. And so we, I've just had this like a year. Okay.
7:15
Now I've, I kind of walked around a little bit. I have not seen any pull up bars around
7:19
here. So you're like, no, no, no, go, I'll go to the garage. I got a jiu-jitsu mat and
7:23
all sorts of weights in the garage. Okay. So that's actually the first thing I want to
7:26
talk about is jiu-jitsu. Okay. Because technically the first time you and I connected was over
7:31
jiu-jitsu because like we were connecting on Instagram a little bit and then our buddy
7:34
or mutual friend, Joby Martin, connected us. And we did this awesome event at your academy,
7:38
which was Jesus and jiu-jitsu. Shout out to those guys. They're amazing. So Raphael
7:42
Fermigo was doing like a seminar and then you were speaking and then it was just kind
7:45
of an open mat thing and there were like 150 people there, which was like amazing. And
7:49
so here's the thing that I don't quite understand because I started doing jiu-jitsu at the age
7:53
of 30. And so like I, I played every ball sport you could play and I had done everything
7:57
that could be done on a ball field. And so then it's like, Hey, how about we just burn
8:01
the ships and start like grappling, right? And so like doing full on like jiu-jitsu classes
8:05
and all that. But as a, as a pastor, like successful author, like you got, you know, kids that
8:12
are teenagers, one that's married and gone away, like of all the hobbies, like the one
8:16
that like hits the cross section of like middle of middle, not middle America, but like suburbs
8:20
of Dallas, it's golf, like that, that's what you need to go do. You need to just overpay
8:25
for clubs that don't actually make you better. Sure. Get a bunch of like shirts that are
8:30
awkwardly colored and go out to play for six or seven hours of time every time. But instead
8:35
you chose like, you know, learning how to fold clothes with people still inside of them.
8:39
Yeah, yeah. The gentle art. Yeah, gentle art. Dude, it's a lie. So anybody listen to this.
8:44
It's not gentle. There's nothing about it. It's gentle. In fact, I'm, I've still got
8:47
to be gentle with this right arm. So I've just got to, I'll be using it. I mean, I'll,
8:51
I'm fine. So why, why that of all the available. So two things. Um, one, I, I'd heard Clint Eastwood
8:58
talk about this idea of not letting the old man in. And I just thought that was freaking
9:02
cool. Like I don't want to let the old man in. And then I had a son whose girlfriend's
9:07
dad is a black belt in jiu-jitsu. Okay. And he was in my son's ear. He was like, man,
9:13
you'd be perfect of this. You're long, surprisingly strong. You get leverage. You'd be a killer
9:17
in jiu-jitsu. Right. So my son, I mean, loves UFC loves MMA. He loves it. And so we were
9:23
at lunch with this guy. Um, the Reed and I were, and he just said, I know this is going
9:27
to sound crazy, but this guy who's like a nine time world champion, like in, in the
9:34
jiu-jitsu world, like he's, he's the stuff. He's the guy. His gym is in Highland village.
9:41
And so Reed at lunch was just like, can we do that? And I was thinking, I'm too old for
9:46
that. I'll get hurt doing that. I'll get. And I was like, Oh crap, I'm letting the old
9:49
man in the old man. And so I was like, let's go do it. Reed. And so bro. And the way for
9:54
me is a very Brazilian way of doing it. So we, uh, we go. They give us a gee. Mine does
9:59
not fit me. I mean, they don't have six, five, two, 20 gees laying around. So I mean, the
10:05
gee, like just barely, I'll show you a picture of this, like barely below my knee. So nobody's
10:09
going to be Toriando at me that night, let's grab the ankles. That's right. And I go in
10:14
and I mean, there's no like, it's a beginner level class. And you got to do 40 of those
10:20
before you go to the all level gee class. And so I'm in beginner class. There's a guy
10:25
named Trevor there. He's become a friend. He's got gauges, a green mohawk, a fricking
10:29
tat on his neck. He just looks like a guy you wouldn't want to tussle with sure. And
10:33
so for me to shows us one thing, I mean, he's like, here, here's, here's how you escape
10:38
guard or this is a way to escape guard. And then okay, let's go. Matt Trevor. And I was
10:44
like, Holy God, I mean, Trevor's like, 240 pounds. He just looked like a bad man. And
10:50
so you had to start like, I had to start in his guard. And so I don't know what happened
10:57
to me that night. But I was like, I want to do this for the rest of my life. And I'd
11:01
been coached well going into it, which is you need to get used to getting smashed. Right.
11:07
And here I am a blue belt. And it's still, I mean, you know, gosh, we rolled that was
11:10
awful and awesome. Okay, but here's the thing is the, so the biggest ego check you can get
11:16
as a successful man that I know of that is easily accessible and all in just about every
11:20
street corner in America now is a jujitsu gym. No question. And the reason is is because
11:24
like I've, I'm luckily, I have a lot of guys in my life that are really successful, successful
11:29
in business. They've got good families. They've they've done well for themselves. None of
11:33
that matters in jujitsu. Like your bottom line, your net worth, all that doesn't really
11:37
come into account whenever there's somebody like laying on top of you and not letting
11:41
you up. That's right. And the thing about it is, is I can put it this way. I'm a four
11:46
stripe purple belt, right? So I'm like, which means I'm decent. That's a flex. I mean, it's
11:50
a flex, but it's, it's decent. That means like you're probably not going to get whooped
11:54
in a street fight unless the other guy trains to that's true or unless he's like Bob sat
11:58
from back in the day where he's 400 pounds with eight pack like one of those things.
12:01
But when you get into a situation to where you're like, I got mauled for about five or
12:06
six years before I felt like, okay, I might be kind of dangerous. Like what other thing
12:11
can you do?
12:12
So you're saying I've got three or four years before I feel dangerous? Like so, because
12:15
I'll talk to white belt Matt white belts, man. I know just got your blue and like that's,
12:19
that's like a big, big step. But the biggest gap for most people is from blue to purple.
12:23
Yeah, because like some guys will get their blue belt and then they're like, I'm good.
12:26
And then they'll go back to golf or go back to, you know, just video games or whatever.
12:30
And they just kind of leave. They get the blue belt blues. But the thing about it is the
12:34
whole time you're at blue belt, you still suck. Even if you're good, you still suck.
12:37
Yeah, there's no, I know. Right. When it's because it's like a legitimate purple brown
12:42
or black belt is going to be able to toy with you. And that's the way I feel right now in
12:46
training. I'm just being toyed with now. They let me work. It's such a great, it's such
12:49
a great gym. They let me work, but don't let me. So, which is perfect. And then every once
12:56
in a while, not, I think because I'm six, five, two, twenty, four, me go won't feed me the
12:59
new white belts, but every once in a while he'll give me one. Right. And then I'm like,
13:03
Oh my gosh, I've got a little offense. I don't ever have offense when I'm rolling against
13:08
the purples, browns and blacks. I mean, I think I do, but they use what I know against me.
13:14
So I, they'll set me up by, I know he's a blue belt. So he's going to go, I'm going
13:17
to make him thinking have my back. And next thing I know, I've been folded in half. Right.
13:21
And you, the thing that you don't realize, which I learned at blue belt, but you don't
13:25
realize when you're rolling with all these guys that are better than you and dominating
13:28
you that you're also getting better. So one of the most formative things that I've ever
13:32
experienced in jujitsu, because the advice I give to people is like, well, if you're
13:35
not training, train, that's number one. Second is if you're training, tap early, tap often.
13:39
I spent four or five years trying to prove to people how tough I was by not tapping into
13:43
the last second right and get my neck just destroyed and cranked on. So don't do that.
13:47
That's, that's some aggro knuckle dragger crap. Don't do that. But I had a bad practice.
13:51
I think I just got my blue belt. So I was very, you're at and had a bad practice. Like when
13:56
I was looking around for the nails, I realized that, Oh, it's only hammers. I'm the nail.
14:00
Right. One of those things. So I get to the locker room and I'm brooding, right? Because
14:04
you know, I'm a better athlete than these guys and I'm stronger than these guys. And
14:07
I just got blue. And one of our guys, he was a brown belt at the time, one of our world
14:11
champions, Tyler Murrow, shout out Tyler Murrow, scrap city jujitsu in Midwest City, Oklahoma.
14:16
He actually got his black belt from Marcus Adelante, who's down here in Dallas. And so
14:20
a lot of you guys should know him. Anyway, he's a brown belt. He comes into the locker
14:24
room after me and he doesn't say much. He's just not that type of guy. He's not a verbose
14:27
guy. He sees me brooding, acting like a child. And he goes, Hey, Kyle, what's going on? You
14:33
all right? I'm like, man, I just kept getting stuck in all these positions. And these guys
14:37
just, you know, we're doing this and that and all that. And he goes, okay, uh, hey,
14:41
what would you do to the Kyle from six months ago? And it just caught me completely off
14:45
guard, right? I'm like, I would, I would kill that guy, then he goes shut up. Like we're
14:51
all getting better. Yeah, like you've been training the last six months, right? Well,
14:55
so have all of us. And we were already better than you. Yeah. And so we're just better better
14:59
than you now. It's like those gaps are just going to stay there. And that's where it's
15:02
like, okay, that ego thing, that's got to die. Because that was all ego brooding in there
15:08
in that locker room. It's a surefire way to drive out your ego. Oh, God. And then here's
15:12
what I, you know, here's my favorite thing about double five. Like when I travel, I take
15:16
my gear with me now and try to drop in. And when I drop in, I kill people. Like it is
15:21
not the same feeling. I mean, I love like I've got vacation in Florida coming up in June,
15:27
and I've already found the spot already emailed the guy told Lauren, Hey, a couple times this
15:31
week, I'm a breakaway for an hour or an hour or two and get some. And I'm actually looking
15:37
forward to that because I haven't dropped in anywhere yet where I get killed quite like
15:43
I do at four megas joint. And that's the best possible setup. Yeah, like that. I feel the
15:47
same way about the forge and at the Oklahoma where I train, like luckily, the best jujitsu
15:52
gym in Oklahoma is the closest one to my house. That's where I land. That's why I've got friends
15:57
that are like, why are you at a competition, bro? You're 50, you're a competition of you're
15:59
a 50 year old man. And I'm just like, I didn't know I was joining the competition. It was
16:05
just the one next to my house. Well, and the thing is, is there are some competition gyms
16:09
that are that are full of dudes that they're going to try to hurt you because they only
16:12
want the strongest lines in the room at all times. And usually gyms like that don't survive
16:16
very long before we wouldn't, before we wouldn't have it for me, it would teach a lesson himself.
16:20
You need hobbyists that are also nasty. Yeah. And so I kind of feel the same way. Like when
16:25
I was blue belt or when I first got my purple belt, I'd have those bad practices which which
16:29
still happened. They're fewer and farther in between now, but they still happen. But yeah,
16:33
I would drop into an open mat or I'd go to, you know, I'd be in Louisiana for something
16:37
I would take my ghee. Well, there's no wrestling in Louisiana for the most part. And so just
16:41
the fact that I have some takedowns, you know, puts me in a different level going up to Utah.
16:45
Same thing. And you roll in someplace and you're like, I'm so thankful for my gym and
16:51
my guys and you're thankful to have purple, browns and blacks that are letting you do a
16:56
little bit and not just smashing you the whole time. That's right. Yeah. And then I also
17:00
learned in competition when I did my first competition, everybody was like, you're going
17:03
to be fine because you train here. You're going to be fine because you train here. And
17:06
I was fine because I trained there. Right. Okay. So I actually want to talk about that
17:10
because Jobe and I were talking like, so there are guys, there are adult males that
17:13
get into jujitsu, but competing is just it's it's nowhere on the radar. Right. It's it's
17:20
enough to get to class. Yeah. To make sure your ghee doesn't stink and that you remember
17:24
your rash guard and flip flops. Yeah. Like that's enough. It is a different level entirely
17:29
to compete. Yeah. And you told me the last time we talked about it, that you're trying
17:34
to compete three or four times a year. I'm going to try to do my plan right now is to
17:38
do jujitsu world league in the fall and the Dallas open IBJ IBJ IBJ F yeah in the Dallas
17:44
open in the spring. So that puts me to a year gives me something to train towards and keeps
17:50
pressure on me to keep going. Hey guys, real quick, if you're anything like me, you were
17:55
constantly on the lookout for high quality products that are actually made here in America
18:00
by American hands. The problem is that a lot of American companies have outsourced their
18:04
labor overseas. So it's an American company, but it's supporting people that don't live
18:09
here. So I've always went to partner with an American company that prioritizes America,
18:13
American workers and making all of their materials here in this country. That's why I want to
18:18
remind you that we are partnered with origin. Origin is an apparel company based in Maine,
18:23
and they are focused on getting as much manufacturing back to the United States as they can possibly
18:27
do. What do they make? They make the best jujitsu geese on the planet. And these are the only
18:32
jujitsu geese that are made completely in America. They also make jeans. Yes, they're
18:37
stretchy and awesome. They also make amazing hunting gear. And I know you guys love your
18:41
kuyu and your sicka, but those companies use overseas labor. And they don't do that to
18:46
help you guys out. They do that to increase their profit margins. Origin also makes boots
18:50
and work boots. And yes, that does include steel toe boots. And in the fall of last year,
18:54
they launched a line of everyday clothing, their Versa pants are their everyday pants.
18:58
And they are just especially phenomenal. They also make other outdoor clothes and workout
19:02
clothes and they're launching new apparel stuff all the time. If you haven't already,
19:06
you need to check them out and support a company that supports America and America's workers.
19:11
Try origin out today by going to www.originusa.com. That's originusa.com. Use the promo code
19:19
undaunted to get 10% off of your order. Again, that's originusa.com promo code undaunted to
19:25
get 10% off of your order.
19:28
So what I'm still not really getting, Matt, is is the why part of it because when people
19:32
look at you, because obviously like we'll talk about the X 29 conference here in a second,
19:36
but I got to just watch you and Joe be interact with people. And I would, you know, I would
19:43
guess how far you because I know you needed to leave the room. I'm like, I'm going to
19:47
guess over under 15 and a half feet is how far he's going to make it before he's going
19:50
to have to stop and talk to somebody else. And so you have so many people that appreciate
19:54
your preaching. Appreciate your leadership of a 29. They appreciate the books, right?
19:58
So they were there from the beginning with the explicit gospel and they've been there
20:00
the whole way through. They listened to the podcast. They share stuff around like, you're
20:05
kind of a big deal. You know that you're a humble guy, but like you've done stuff like
20:08
you've checked a lot of boxes that a lot of people don't get to check. And so some people
20:12
would be like, why open yourself up to potential massive disappointment where you train for
20:18
three months for a tournament and maybe you get subbed in the first minute by the dude
20:22
that goes on to win the whole thing. Like, why? Like why go that far? Does that make
20:26
sense?
20:27
Yeah. And to be really honest, I don't know that I know the answer to that question other
20:30
than I am committed one to raging against the dying of the light. I want to be growing.
20:36
I want a, I want a new challenge. I know I think it's personality type stuff. The Lord's
20:42
put in me, whether it's theological or physical. I love learning and I've actually prone like
20:50
I like the tears I got out. I came back from a hard training session. I got in the shower
20:57
and I love, I don't know why there's something in me. I love that moment where I'm in the
21:01
shower and I'm like, Oh, wait. Oh my gosh. I think I might have hurt myself. It's even
21:06
my wife. Like Leslie was like, what's wrong? Like, why, why are you doing? And I'm like,
21:09
I, I love it. Here, here's one of the things I love. I am so there's always 4,000 things
21:17
going on in my mind. And Jiu Jitsu is 100% presence. And then like, I know guys that I've
21:26
got a good friend in Tulsa and he, he will like his sermons or complex issues. They come
21:33
clear to him when he goes for a run. He just goes for I'm not run. I am not. I hate running.
21:40
I mean, I hate, I'll never be a runner. I've run a couple of five Ks. If I don't hit that
21:44
runner's high, which I think's make believe that by 3.6 K mark, so you've only ever gone
21:49
to the 5K mark 3.2 miles fine and hit it by then. I don't want it. Okay, fair. I don't
21:53
want it. So they there's something about being on the mat and being all on the mat, right?
22:02
Like I'm not thinking about staffing complexities. I'm not thinking about how to move money around
22:06
the world for X 29 in a way that we don't lose. Right. I mean, I am one and there is
22:12
a kind of clarity that when I get back in my truck, sweaty and exhausted and drive home,
22:19
I, I just, things start clicking for me. And then man, it is, it is probably my favorite.
22:26
I am. I need to be around. Crimey men who are trying to find their way. And my world can
22:33
get really, really clean. And my, the church I pass could get really, really clean. The
22:38
Texas suburbs, maybe it's the cleanest place of work, but it's not. Right. It's on the
22:42
surface. It looks like. And, but man, that surface doesn't even exist in that gym because
22:48
you've already put it. Everybody's equal on the mat. And then, and then it has been such
22:53
a fun, like when I finished rolling with most guys, I'm like, Hey man, I've got some time
22:57
this afternoon to pray anything I can pray for you about. I've had grown men that look
23:00
like they would murder you in the street, tear up when they talk about things at home
23:05
or things about work. I need that space. I need to be around rough neck guys who are
23:10
trying to find their way. Okay. And so the thing that I love so much
23:13
about that is so I'm, I'm the men's ministry guy, right? Yeah. And so I will get people
23:18
that are pastors at churches that'll be like, Hey Kyle, can you help us with the men's ministry?
23:22
What they mean is can we book you to come and speak at our once a year men's event? And
23:26
then the rest of the year, we might try to get guys into circles. But what I've stopped
23:31
doing, because I used to try to help people. I used to be like, okay, let's, let's try
23:34
to do this. Sure. Bring me in and all. But my style is burn it down and walk away. That's
23:38
my style. Yeah, that's tough. And so if you're not ready to do something with the ashes and
23:41
the stuff that I burned off, like what? Yeah. So good. I got paid and I mean, that's why
23:45
I became a pastor. I was doing itinerant ministry. I'm like, I don't, I want to see what would
23:49
happen if for 20, 30 years, 40 years, I like just walk with a group of people. Right. Like
23:55
what could God do if I gave 40 years to a spot? Right. And that, I mean, that's, that's
24:00
why I'm not traveling around doing itinerant ministry. I mean, I do that stuff, but I've
24:04
got a home base. I'm like, even when I preached this morning is a mashup of two sermons I
24:08
preached at the village. Right. Like I'm, I'm fate. I, I love this group of people. I mean,
24:14
I told Andrea, my assistant, she was in the green room when I walked off stage last weekend.
24:20
And I'm just like, I so love these people. I so want them to have all the fullness of
24:25
Jesus in their lives. And I, I, I want that. I want to be there when it's on fire and I
24:32
want to be there when the Lord rebuilds it and I want to be there when it catches fire
24:36
again. And I want to be there when he rebuilds it all the way to glory. Right. And, and
24:40
man, I, I love that. That's why I'm not traveling around preaching. That's why I've been in
24:43
one place for 22 years. And that's spoken like a true shepherd because that's one thing
24:47
that was talked about the conference as well to where it's like, you know, we hear about
24:50
shepherd and we don't, we only think about the soft parts of the job. We don't think
24:53
about the parts where, you know, they're killing blinds that are trying to kill their sheep
24:56
kind of thing. And sometimes the lines kill, you know, some, some of your guns. Sometimes
25:00
you're on the losing end of that. But coming back around to the whole men's ministry thing,
25:05
I stopped talking about men's ministry and I started saying, Hey, how about we just make
25:07
your church man friendly? Yeah. How about whenever you're preaching from stage that you
25:13
have the men in mind? How about your worship leader who is high in trade openness? That's
25:17
very creative. How about they think about the men when they pick the song and they don't
25:21
pick one with homoerotic lyrics or in a key that men can't hit. That the key men can't
25:25
hit huge. Right. And so why are the men sitting there with hands in their pockets? Because
25:29
they don't like the, they don't like the music. They don't like the words. It just seems funny.
25:34
And when they try to hit it, they hear themselves not being anywhere near the correct key. And
25:38
so again, you, you focus on it being man friendly. And that's like the main overall idea. But
25:44
the biggest thing that I see as a problem with most men, men's ministries, Matt, is it's
25:49
like, all right, well, thanks for coming to our Wednesday night, whatever, whatever thing.
25:53
Hey, I'm going to talk for about 30 minutes. And then we're just going to stick you in
25:56
a group. And at that group, we got some questions and we're just going to just read those questions
26:00
and pour your heart out. Yeah.
26:03
Have you done anything with those men? Yeah. To where you would know that you could trust
26:07
them like anything at all. And I go back to hunter gatherer cultures, because it's easy
26:11
to say, Hey, men connect shoulder to shoulder, women connect eyeball to eyeball. Like, that's
26:14
a thing. But it's like, if we were going to hunt somewhere, we wouldn't be circled up
26:19
before the hunt going, Oh my gosh, isn't this going to be so much fun? Like, let's, let's
26:23
make sure all our tools are ready to go. We would be stoically standing next to one another
26:27
ready for the hunt. And only after the accomplishment, only after the kill and the provision for
26:32
our village, will we get together and be like, Hey, did you see when Bob tripped and fell
26:36
over that rock? Isn't that funny? And like, man, Matt, that was a great shot. Like we
26:40
needed that we thought we were going to lose this animal. But the whole point that I'm
26:44
trying to get at is we have so many people that aren't focusing on doing hard things
26:49
together. And that's the thing with you, Jitsu, is you learn about somebody without them giving
26:53
you their bio, right? Because you're learning about like, Hey, I tapped you for the first
26:58
time ever, and you didn't just flip out, you smiled, slap bump, and we just went again,
27:02
you learned something about these dudes that you're not going to get on the golf course.
27:05
I agree. I agree. I love it. Absolutely love it. And so how can we, I'm kind of getting
27:12
into my men's ministry stuff, because we talked about this at breakfast the other day.
27:15
How can me as a, I guess you could call it a para church ministry? Sure. And you as a
27:20
minister, that is a sought after voice in a lot of different circles. How can we help
27:25
churches not do men's programming, which that's what a once a year men's event is, but where
27:31
they can focus on, Hey, we're going to be man friendly. Because if your church is man
27:34
friendly, your men are going to be engaged. They're going to be catacizing their children.
27:37
Yeah. They're going to be, they're going to be volunteering. They're going to be looking
27:40
for volunteer opportunities. They're not going to abdicate leadership to the women.
27:43
Yeah. So I think what I'm trying to do all the time at the village, in fact, I've done
27:48
it multiple times the last couple of weekends. I was like, brothers, can I talk to you for
27:51
a minute? Let me talk to you specifically. Like, like I know the onus of this text bears
27:56
its weight on you in a unique way. But I also know the Holy Spirit's empowered you to do
28:00
this, but you're going to have to move towards it and not from it. So I'm trying to almost
28:05
always kind of speak directly to the brothers. And sometimes I will the sisters, but I'm
28:10
like men. Like let me, let me say, because here's my experience now, 22 years, when I
28:14
was a younger man, I just ran at them and beat them up. And there's some men need that.
28:19
But by and large, my experience now is that a lot of men, if not most men, they want to
28:26
do this right. They have a hunger to be the kind of man that you and I want them to be.
28:32
But without models, without knowing what to do, they feel stuck in it. And so what I'm
28:38
trying to do in this season of ministry, I'll be 50 in June. But at this a long time, I'm
28:44
trying to embody what I'm talking about in a real way. And I'm trying to speak courage
28:50
into them to take the step that they're afraid of, whatever that fear might be, whether it's
28:55
the imposter syndrome, like I just know, I'm going to be found out to be a fraud, whether
29:00
it's, yeah, like all sorts of, I mean, they're all sorts of kind of besetting issues that
29:07
are on men right now. And I want to call them to what God calls them to. And I want to give
29:12
them specific action to take. Most of the time that's have courage. That doesn't mean you're
29:19
not afraid. It doesn't mean that you're going to, you know, God's not a like, Jesus isn't
29:24
a genie in a bottle that's going to make all your dreams come true. But he will be with
29:28
you and he will empower what he's commanded you to do. So let's lean in brothers. And
29:33
I want to just speak to him as often as possible. Okay, so let's, let's talk courage. And now
29:37
I want to, I've been having to answer my pants to talk about this, but let's talk about the
29:40
act swinging line conference. So let's go. So this is coming out the same week, the new
29:44
book comes out, which we'll get to. But that's where we've been hanging out all week is
29:47
at the act swinging on conference. I was down here in the Dallas area. And so it was kicked
29:51
off by Jobe Martin, who absolutely just crushed fire. And like, you know, because I listened
29:57
to all of his sermons now and have for the last several years. And so he went to the,
30:01
he went to the same well he goes to for a lot of his stuff, but he had to kind of set the
30:04
tone for everything. And it was, it was perfect. I was like, he was like, it was like a, it
30:10
was a virtuoso performance by him. And I'm not just blowing him up because that's my
30:14
buddy. And then you got Piper last night. And I got to watch you and Jobe and everybody
30:19
else just geek out the fact that Piper was just in the presence of the room. And he absolutely
30:25
lit it up. And then today you were, you were going to come in and close. Yeah. And so what
30:30
I've experienced at a lot of conferences is the closer, for whatever reason seems to try
30:35
to ease everybody into the exit of the conference. They just kind of like, all right, well, you've
30:40
had a lot of highs. And so I'm just going to be the calming voice that sends you off
30:44
into the rest of the world. And so yeah, that's not my gift. No, not, that's not exactly,
30:48
that's not exactly your gift. But you're a firebrand. Yeah. We know that if anyone's
30:53
listened to your sermons, like for any length of time, like everyone already knows that.
30:58
But there was something different today. Okay. From my perspective, from my opinion, and
31:03
I felt like it's because not only did you believe what you were saying, that's why you
31:05
said it, but you believe that we were in, I say, we, I'm not X 29, but that the network,
31:11
but even just the Western church, we're at large, is kind of at not a breaking point,
31:15
but at a, we're coming to that Robert Frost fork in the road. Yeah. And it's like, guys,
31:20
you can keep going this way, or we can go this way. And the other way takes some courage
31:25
and some gumption and some resilience and some fortitude. And I'm not going to give away
31:30
your, your whole sermon, but you talked about remember, and you talked about run. And it's
31:34
like, remember, you're not the point, and remember King Jesus. But then when it comes
31:38
to run, well, let me just tell you up to talk about the run part, and you can talk about
31:41
whatever you want. But when you started talking about the run stuff, I was like, ooh, there's
31:47
a lot of discomfort in this room, like you could feel the weight of the room kind of
31:50
settle on a bunch of people's chest, which again leads to, you know, some reconciliation,
31:57
which leads to healing and all that type of stuff. But talk to talk to me about the run
32:00
stuff and really just how you prepared your, your talk overall.
32:03
Well, man, I love that passage. I mean, that was one of the first two verses I ever memorized
32:07
there in Hebrews 12. And, and the idea is like if you're going to run, if you're going
32:14
to be able to do what I'm telling you to do here, you've got to lay off everything that
32:18
hinders that running. And then you also have to get the sin out of your, you got to get
32:23
sin off of you. But that it's the first part that I think guys get jammed up in. It's morally
32:29
neutral, lesser loves that kind of satiate them from the feast of the presence and power
32:36
of Jesus. And so man, morally neutral, lesser love, it's not like what's making most guys
32:41
stumble, not all guys, but what makes most guys stumble. It's not black tar heroin. It's
32:46
like it's flipping through Instagram and lingering too long on the pictures that just happened
32:52
to pop up on their reels because the algorithm knows they're a 30 year old man, right? And
33:00
most 30 year old man want to see what's coming up and you start lingering on that. Now you're
33:06
actually that's kind of sin. That's not even a hindrance. But you might not even mean that
33:10
you might be just thinking, Hey, I'm just scrolling through Instagram. But, but those
33:13
little decisions to be hindered by morally neutral, lesser loves satiate you. So you're
33:20
not hungry for Jesus. So like, like having a glass of bourbon's great. I love a good
33:25
glass of bourbon. I love it. What a gift of God's grace. But man, if that one glass turns
33:31
to two glass turns to three glass turns to four glass. So you can get through the day.
33:35
Brother, you're not going to the well. You're not going to the well. You're running with
33:40
a great deal of weight on you because you don't have the joy and life of Jesus animating
33:47
and fueling the good work that God's given you to do. So a lot of guys are making it
33:51
through life with white knuckle discipline. And I'm all about good discipline. But there
33:56
is a delight and joy made available to the sons of God by which we're supposed to run.
34:01
I'm running on the fuel of the joy of the Lord. Okay, which is in that that's Paul. The joy
34:06
of the Lord. I mean, that's some the joy of the Lord is my strength. Where's my strength
34:09
coming from? The joy of the Lord. The thing that I found on the wife found it surprising,
34:14
but it was surprising is you didn't leave it in the ethereal because it's it's one thing
34:18
to tell everybody, Hey, we need to have accountability. It's another thing to ask the guy next to
34:23
you. Hey, will you hold me accountable on this specific line item? But you actually put it
34:28
in front of people to where it said I like the way that you put it to where you use an
34:32
example of this this woman that was doing this commercial and they had her stand next
34:36
to a full fully grown male lion, but it was a tame lion. But then the lion realized, Oh,
34:42
it remembered I'm an apex predator and it mauled this woman. Yeah, almost to death. And the
34:46
trainer was like, I've never seen this animal do anything like that. Can't believe it. Right,
34:49
just I'm in complete shock that apex predator acted like an apex predator. What happened?
34:54
But like you were talking about how some of you have allowed your own little cub, your
34:59
own little private pet sin as it were, grow into a fully fledged lion. And you still think
35:04
you have it under control. No, you were at the behest of that animal. And when it decides
35:10
it doesn't want to be nice anymore, you don't get a vote. No. And so I was, I was actually
35:15
surprised that you, you basically threw down the gauntlet with people and said, Hey, if
35:20
you've got a little, a little cub problem, right? Like stand up. Yeah. So that we can
35:25
know that we need to be praying for you. And the context and that you put it in and then
35:29
I'll, I'll let you kind of talk more about it was it's better that we have that awkward
35:33
conversation. Yeah. It's better that we burn off like that dead wood. It's better that
35:37
we do that now. Yeah. Then for us to do that 10 years down the road and what it's manifested
35:42
in then is you have lost your family, the collateral damage, the longer you put up with
35:47
it. And you're done with your ministry. Right. So, so why, why go there? Because a lot of
35:52
people would, you know, be like, we've got to be better, but they don't get real specific.
35:57
You know what I mean? So when I became a Christian, um, like promise keepers was at its height.
36:03
I mean, stadiums filled with men. Right. And one of the guys that taught frequently there
36:08
was named Steve Ferrar. He, he went to be with the Lord, I think two, three years ago. Now
36:12
he actually would come to the village on Sunday nights back in the day. He was on staff at
36:16
a different church in the area, but he would come. I think his son had a powerful encounter
36:20
with the Lord at our church. And he, he wrote a book called finishing strong. And, and in
36:27
the front of that book, he, he makes this claim. And by the way, I read this 20 years
36:32
ago, 30 years ago, he, um, he, he, he made this claim that if you opened up the cover
36:39
of your Bible and you wrote all the names of the men who are in the trench with you right
36:44
now within 20 years, half of those guys would be gone. Half of those guys would be gone.
36:50
And at the time, not dead, not dead, blow off their lives, blow off their lives. And I just
36:55
thought at the time that sounded ridiculous. I mean, I was a young man. I mean, everybody
36:59
around me was on fire for the Lord when, when I was reading that book. And we were experiencing
37:04
the power and presence of God in our lives. And we were, I was like, no way. And man,
37:09
he was wrong. It wasn't half of them. It's been more than half. And so having been in
37:15
ministry now, been following Jesus for 32 years, been in ministry, 28 of that, the sheer number
37:21
of guys that have absolutely destroyed their life, some have actually taken their own lives.
37:29
Three of them that I know of now, um, I feel that man. I mean, I just feel I want those
37:36
guys to make it. I want them to make it in the room. I could, I'm telling you, I was
37:40
the reason I didn't come out and hang out last night is I could feel, I felt burdened
37:44
and I didn't want to relieve myself of that burden. Right. And out of come goofed around,
37:48
we had had a blast, we had a laughed and told stories and it had been epic. But I felt the
37:53
weight of what I wanted to say. And I didn't want to let myself out from under it. Because
37:57
there's some, there's some kid out there today. I'm telling you, there's some 26 year old
38:02
kid. And he's just starting out in ministry. And he's still looking at porn. And he, he
38:10
thinks it's okay. He thinks it's okay. It's not a big deal. It's not hurting anybody.
38:14
Or maybe he knows it's not okay. But he's just, it's got its hooks in it, man. It's got
38:19
his hooks in him. Better than heroin. But yeah. And, and so he doesn't fear God like
38:25
he should. He loves Jesus. I just believe it. I've seen enough to know there are guys who
38:29
love Jesus and don't fear God. Because he fearing God keeps you from being stupid. It
38:35
just does. You fear the Lord. You're not going to be prone to stupidity. You can love Jesus
38:39
and be an idiot. Look at King David. A man after God's own heart. Yeah, man. What the
38:43
hell is he doing on that roof? He does train wreck. What's he doing? What are you doing
38:46
up there? Right. At the time that Kings went to war. Why are you on the roof? Now, I've
38:51
got a theory wise on the roof. Um, I think, so what I love about David and here's what
38:57
I try to teach men. Um, men need a Kings table. They need a Kings table. They need a Nathan
39:03
who's like you're an idiot, who's older, who call him to it. They, they need a Joab. It's
39:08
like, who, you, what's that movie with Ben Affleck and, uh, where he shows up and he's
39:13
like, Hey, you can't ask me any questions. Yeah. You can't ask me any questions. I don't
39:17
ever want to talk about it again. But we're going to go hurt some people. And he's like,
39:20
who's car we take? Right? Who's car? We take it. You need a Joab. That's it. And, and you
39:25
need, and here's the one, you need a Jonathan, you need a lover of your soul, man. You got
39:30
to have that guy or those guys, like you, you would call him your three AM friends. Right.
39:34
Yeah. You need, you need that guy. And Jonathan dies and David's lost. He's lost, man. He
39:41
doesn't have the lover of his soul anymore. And he's lost. And this is why I think brotherhood
39:45
is so huge. And I pushed people like I can tell you my Kings table right now. And, and
39:49
I'm always, who's in the seat right now? And if, if a seat's empty, I'm going to find
39:52
somebody to take that seat. So I had my Nathan seat empty a couple of years ago and I went
39:56
to Ray Orland in Nashville. And I said, Hey, I, I need a Nathan like man in my life and
40:04
older. I mean, he's in his 70s. He's like just, he's in a may deeply loves his wife.
40:10
They're kind of gross. They feed each other. They, I mean, it's nasty. That's a little
40:13
money. It's only nasty because they're in their 70s. Right. And, and men to avid hunter
40:18
man's man. And I'm like, I want, watch me from a distance, come in several times a year.
40:24
And man, just be my guy that's helping me finish well. And, and then man, when if I lose a Jonathan
40:31
or a Joab, I'm finding those guys. Right. I'm finding, I'm a vitamin B, this guy for me.
40:36
I need this guy in my life. And I'm going to make space for that. I'm going to cultivate
40:40
it. And I'm going to give myself over to it and when necessary submit to it. Right.
41:01
So, in addition to that, this is one of the biggest refrains that I get because yeah,
41:19
the three AM friend thing went viral for the last couple of months of people are getting
41:23
it. But I talk about a foxhole. Like these are the types of guys when you look to your
41:26
left and to your right. These are guys that you want there. And it's not always guys,
41:30
guys that can fight, but you need some guys that can fight. But you know, Joby and I were
41:33
talking about in terms of like, you know, Shane Bernard, Shane effort, you know, Shane and
41:36
Shane. It's like, when you look at these guys, maybe you're not like, Hey, I want you, you
41:40
know, with an M four next to me whenever we're going that, but like their music gets me ready
41:46
to storm the gates of hell with the squirt gun. Like that's, that's how that music is.
41:49
So if I see any of the Shane's next to me to my left or to my right, I am psyched. But
41:55
these guys will say the lament that we like, man, I just, I don't have any three AM friends.
41:59
I don't have any foxhole guys. I don't have any guys I can rely on. And I think they expect
42:03
me to join their lament, which is not really in my like top 100 of personality characteristics.
42:09
No, it's not, but it's like, so what do you think that you need to do about that? Well,
42:13
I said today in my talk, if you're a lonely pastor, you made that you chose that. Yeah,
42:18
I wrote that down. You chose that. You did that. And so part of it is we get higher in
42:22
our own farts. And we're like, we are so important and so good. We don't have anyone that's on our
42:26
level that we would want to submit to so it's so it's ego and all that type of stuff. But also,
42:31
you yourself are not a three AM man. Yeah. And you know it. And you know that if a guy needs
42:37
you at three AM that you wouldn't get out of bed, you wouldn't get out of your warm bed to do it.
42:41
And so that's where I tell guys that are like, okay, if they don't know any of those guys in their
42:45
life, it's like, well, if you only hang out at church with a bunch of other typical church guys,
42:50
you may not find the one that you're looking for. You need to go some places where there are some
42:53
there are some rough dudes, maybe it's you jiu jitsu gym, maybe it's the shooting range,
42:57
maybe it's something like it's somewhere. But most of these men are not cultivating that in
43:04
themselves. Yeah. And I'm so glad you brought up this submission to authority thing. Because the
43:09
biggest problem that I see is you have those lean forward guys that are like, all right,
43:13
I'm going to be a foxhole guy. I'm going to be a three AM guy. I'm going to be a corner toad
43:17
or that's like Jobe's language. I'm going to be that guy. I'm going to have a king's table. I'm
43:20
going to be that guy, right? And then they have guys like that around them. Yeah. And the first time
43:26
one of them tries to nathan them, they reject them. Yeah. They say, you don't know me. You don't
43:31
understand my situation. You don't know how hard my upbringing was. Sure. And then they stiff-armed
43:35
these dudes. And it's like, bro, I do miss the entire point. Yeah. You did a bunch of preparation,
43:41
and then you stopped right before the war story happens all the time. So we read my crew,
43:46
my five. We read Gates of Fire by Stephen Pressfield almost every summer.
43:52
Right. And that's the concept there of shield to shield. It's a mantra for us.
43:58
Like that, that, that, I mean, the number of emails tech, like our little text thread,
44:04
little emoji is two shields. It's this idea that I'm like, no, no, no, we're in this together.
44:10
One dies, we all die. And, and so if, like, if it comes to it and the arrows are flying and
44:18
blood's all over the ground, and it's because I dropped my shield, then I'd better be willing to
44:25
listen because it's not just me on the line. It's us on the line. Right. And, and we've just kind of
44:30
adopted this mindset that we're going to finish this thing together. And, and it's, and I get it,
44:37
man, I get where guys are afraid of this. I get where they're nervous about this. I get,
44:41
I mean, I totally get it. I've had to cross those bridges over and over and over again,
44:46
because it would have been really easy for me to be king at the village. It'd be really easy to be
44:51
the king and to lean on my gifting and to point to my anointing and, you know, don't touch the
44:57
Lord's anointed and all that bull crap. I mean, quit proof texting. And, but I, I have chosen by
45:03
the grace of God. I won't touch it. I've chosen by the grace of God. I want, I want to do this with
45:10
a group of guys. I don't want to do this by myself. I want to, and here's what's great. When we win,
45:16
men, the joy of winning is exponentially larger. And when we lose, it divides the lament across
45:26
four other guys. And it is a, I was just at, we do these, we all have chosen to do these
45:34
mile markers for our children. So when they're 13 years old, we all gather together, husbands
45:41
and wives, we gather in a room, and we write letters to our kids, and we read out loud to them.
45:47
This is what I see that God placed in you, not really good at football, or you got such a good
45:52
person. No, no, no, it's, it's like, so for my son, read, everybody said the same thing. You are,
45:58
you are fierce, and you are kind. Don't ever choose between the two. Stayed both. And then
46:06
here's what's wild. When, when my, my son went through a little, where he second-guessing himself,
46:11
he was caught up, he was confused in some things. I literally pulled those letters out. I made him
46:15
stand there and read them to me. And I was like, is Trevor a liar? Is Trevor? No, no, he's not a liar.
46:20
Okay. So he sees it. Now, now, what about Josh? Is Josh a liar? No, he's not. Is it, what about Johnny?
46:26
Is Poppy a liar? No, he's not a liar, is he? So this is, this is in you. And I could want, I mean,
46:31
his chest came back out. So anyway, I say all that to go. We do it at 13 and then we do another one
46:36
at 18, writes a passage. And we were just at Josh's daughter's 18th. And we're all there, wrote,
46:43
the room is packed with this group. We've said, we're living and dying together. Like, we're doing
46:48
this together. And man, we read our letters to Lily and there's tears all over the room that we all
46:54
gathered around her. And we sang that Carrie Job song, "The Blessing." And just, it didn't, it sounded
47:01
great just because God was in the room. I mean, we're not, I mean, it was, it, and it was just this
47:06
powerful moment. And, and we could look at each other and go, this has been worth it. Every low,
47:13
every high, every, it's been worth it. And I want that for guys. I hate that they won't choose
47:19
to cultivate it because you got to die to yourself to cultivate it. You just do. It's the only way
47:24
to live is to die. I mean, Piper kind of destroyed that ideology last night whenever he was talking
47:29
about stoicism. Yeah. And the thing is, is if you mean stoicism as stiff up or lip, as, you know,
47:35
Jordan Peterson would describe it being the one man at your father's funeral that everyone can
47:39
rely and depend on. Like, that's fine. But if you, if you take that ideology, that philosophy to its,
47:46
to its logical conclusion, because the point that Piper made last night is that's a stiff upper lip
47:51
philosophy that also ends with sometimes there's, there's too much on your plate and you just have
47:56
to kill yourself. And that's also okay. Yeah. It's like, wait a minute, like that, like how did,
48:00
how did we get there? And the problem that we see is that, and this is all tied to the stuff that
48:05
we've talked about, like the little cubs that turn into fully grown up lines and not having those
48:09
people around you to where you can divide up your burden. Like, I want to talk about one specifically,
48:13
because you talked about generically how men will blow up their ministries. And right. And so it's,
48:18
it's more than half of those men are going to disqualify themselves. What's the sin that almost
48:23
always is the sin that disqualifies a man? It's sexual sexual almost always like maybe a guy's
48:29
like an embezzler, right? Maybe a guy's like a tax cheat and maybe it's out there. Yeah, like,
48:34
some of that stuff happens in a guy that's just like, he just, it's like he's a congenital liar.
48:38
Like it's just, it's like all he can do. But it's always a sexual sin. And as I've talked about on my
48:42
show a lot, I used to look at porn and masturbate. Why? Because I'm a dude. And that's what we do.
48:47
And I had been convinced by a dumb buddy of mine that God gave us masturbation as a gift,
48:51
because, you know, Jesus is my homeboy and God is okay with that somehow. And I have to have a
48:55
release. And this is like this exegetical nonsense gymnastics that I have to get to make the text say
49:00
what it says. Why is that? Well, the thing is, is I feel like I know why. I feel like I know that's
49:07
like that's the one because the union of a man and a woman is the closest that we get to understanding
49:12
the sacrifices Jesus made on the cross. It's the picture. Because that's him and his bride, right?
49:16
That's right. Jesus and his bride, the church. And so obviously the conjugal union is one of
49:21
those things to where it's like if if Satan, Satan, he's like, okay, if I can get them to do this thing
49:27
that was meant for this one beautiful setting outside of that setting, in any way, shape or form
49:32
that that takes place, whether that's looking at porn and masturbating or whether that's having
49:35
an extramarital affair, like I win. Because if I can destroy this one building block,
49:41
that's why the gay marriage thing was so important is because it's like if I can destroy this one
49:46
building block by which we've built all of civilization. We can get you to believe
49:52
anything if we can get you to believe that, you know, there is no sexual morality that you have to
49:57
stick to. So I guess, guess for that, to the men that are listening to this, that have that pet
50:02
sin, right? Of porn and hey, when I get married, I just want to look at porn anymore. I'll just be
50:06
having way too much sex or like, yeah, good luck with that. That type of idea. I mean, I know men
50:10
that had had were looked at looked at porn on their wedding night, right? I know men that have asked
50:15
their wives to hold the phone above her head with porn on it so that they can maintain an erection.
50:21
And then they're in their 20s, but they can't maintain an erection with a warm blooded spouse
50:27
that they have become one flesh with because they've allowed their mind to have one flesh,
50:31
you know, interactions with a bunch of other other women. Just talk to me a little bit more
50:34
about that because my goodness, this is what's not just consuming pastors, it's just consuming men
50:38
in general. Yeah, so the sexual experience is a transcendent one, the closest we can get to
50:44
transcendence without this intimate relationship with Jesus. And so there's a power dynamic at play
50:51
which is why like it's never really about sex. Like if you think about like the number of guys,
50:56
I know whose wives are absolutely stunning and the woman they cheat on them with is not is not,
51:03
it's stunning, it's staggering. So it's not ultimately about sex. It's about control idols,
51:10
power idols, and honestly, non integration of your little, your little boy self inside of you.
51:19
It's a, can I be loved? Am I lovable? And it's a seeking of conquest approved to yourself that you
51:26
are? And then porn just is a cheap, easy way to get momentary transcendence. And I've never
51:33
met anybody who when that act is over, it is, you know, feels empowered and emboldened.
51:39
We did it, guys. There's always shame. There's always shame and regret. And then if you don't
51:45
have that, now if you're to the place where your pants around your ankle and you've got to scroll
51:49
for, you know, you got to go to scene to scene to scene for four hours, even to go like you have
51:54
rewired your brain in such a way that man, we've got some, and we've got a guy I just met with a guy
52:00
from our church who whose wife just had their first baby. And this is his story. I mean, he gave
52:06
himself over to this for years and he marries this beautiful woman. And he has a hard time
52:11
maintaining an erection because of all the porn he consumed. And now he's doing the hard work.
52:18
And by the grace of God, he's got this wife who's so gracious and understanding about it
52:22
that he's healing and making his way. But man, you, it is a cheap, cheap, cheap substitute
52:29
of the real thing because the gift of sexual union is the Hebrew word is doed. It's a mingling
52:36
of souls. It's not just a physical act. There's something there that's transcendent because it
52:43
is a picture of Christ in his church. And so when you short circuit that transcendence
52:49
for a four second orgasm or whatever, you're, you just do great harm to yourself and you do
52:55
great harm to the picture. And the picture is the only thing that's ever going to satisfy your soul.
53:01
And so I think it's catastrophic. And it's interesting to note how science is catching up to what the
53:08
Bible has said all along about the importance of taking every captive, every thought captive
53:14
unto Christ to whatever is true, noble, right, good, beautiful, dwell on that, dwell on that.
53:19
It's second Corinthians 10, five, which got me through my addiction to pornography and masturbation.
53:24
So Dr. John Fobert is a good buddy of mine. He wrote a seminal work called how pornography harms.
53:28
And it gets into the brain science of rewiring neural pathways and, you know, how a reptile
53:34
dysfunction is skyrocketed for 20 something year olds and how our testosterone is going in the
53:38
opposite direction. And that gets into the food supply and all that kind of stuff. But I had a
53:42
guy ask me a very pointed question. And I gave him a surprisingly pointed answer. He goes,
53:47
Hey, man, why, why don't more pastors talk about porn and masturbation? I said, because they're
53:51
looking at porn and jerking off. The numbers, the numbers say you're not lying.
53:56
Right. And so it's like, that's why they're not doing it, because they've picked other varsity
54:01
sins that they don't struggle with. That funny. So they're not alcoholics. So they're going to
54:05
rail on people that drink too much. Like they're in good shape. So they're going to rail on people
54:09
that have gotten a little bit lumpy around the middle or the opposite of that. They're not going
54:13
to mention, you know, overindulgence, because they've been overindulging for decades and not
54:17
moving their bodies very much. But the thing I feel like a lot of pastors that do address this
54:23
get get wrong is they take the approach of making the issue seem like it's way bigger
54:30
of a task to get under control than what it actually is. And what I mean by that is every
54:35
year I do a how to avoid being a crappy man episode. And it's just, you know, it's generalised good
54:40
advice. Like don't let sports ruin your night. Don't be late. Don't ever act like you know
54:43
something that you don't because you're stealing an opportunity away from somebody else to teach
54:47
you something. But one of those is no porn, no jerking off. And people are like, well,
54:50
how do I stop looking at porn? I'm like, lean in. I'm going to give you some otherworldly advice.
54:55
It's going to blow your mind. You ready? Get a pen. You ready? Stop looking at porn and stop
55:00
jerking off. And they're like, it can't be that simple. I'm like, accept it is. Because if I stop
55:05
masturbating, I'm not going to go to porn because of the cinematography, because of the story lines.
55:12
I don't need that tool anymore because I've gotten rid of the act that leads to the use of the tool.
55:17
And it's kind of the same thing. Like, I remember someone asking Jocko willing back in the day,
55:21
Hey, I really struggle with pull-ups. So how can I get better at pull-ups? And his answer was,
55:25
do more pull-ups. Yeah, like that's how you get better at you. You get better at running by
55:28
running. You get better at reading by reading. And it's one of these types of things where I feel
55:32
like we overcomplicate it. And I'm not anti accountability software. Covenant eyes, great stuff,
55:38
triple X church. Awesome. You know, the lion browser, I'm all for it. But I think people do that
55:44
as it's like people that buy running shorts and running shoes and these specialized brooks
55:49
socks, but then they never go run. Yeah. And so I feel like there's an element of that where people
55:53
buy covenant eyes, but they know how to get around. They know how to get around that. Because guess
55:58
what covenant eyes can't do? It can't see what you're doing on the Twitter app, which allows you,
56:02
you can see anything on the Twitter app, right? Listen, you get to almost anything through the,
56:06
like, and here's what I learned by having kids, you can go to the Bible app and get to YouTube,
56:10
you can get from YouTube, you can get to, I mean, it's, and maybe we shouldn't be giving away hacks,
56:14
but I'm guessing the brothers watching. No. Well, that's the thing is, I'm glad that we gave away
56:17
the hack to where it's like, Hey, if you're listening to this, that's that's something that
56:20
you have to get under control. But I guess my point, Matt, is I feel like we're, we're making
56:24
this too complicated for men because it goes back to what you said earlier in this conversation at
56:28
your, you know, sermon, you did acts 29. And what we talked about at breakfast the other day is men
56:33
want to be better, but they don't know how. But men are actually kind of simple. Like,
56:37
if you give them a three step process to do something, they can probably make that work.
56:41
But if you give them this kind of vapid, like 12 step process to be able to this and that and the
56:46
other thing, it's like, do just stop doing that thing, just stop it. And I just feel like we way
56:51
overcomplicated drives me nuts. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. I do think there
56:55
are times where, like, I do think there are times where there have been certain kinds of trauma,
57:02
that, that really make it a bit more difficult for certain men rather than others, like a, like a,
57:08
a guy that's been sexually abused, or a guy might have some, some more work to do
57:14
than just a guy who stumbled across the magazine when he was 12 or, you know, something like that.
57:21
And so there is a category for complexity. But by and large, there is a, I'm, I'm not going to,
57:29
or I know when I do this, and I'm going to make sure that my king's table or corner carrier or
57:37
nose that man, I, I know my wife's going out of town. I know I'm on the road this week. I know I'm,
57:45
and so I'm telling my guys, hey, and I still do this. I don't, this isn't my stroke. I've got,
57:50
I've got my own compulsions. This isn't one of them. And if Lauren's out of town, I'm letting my
57:56
guys know, hey, Lauren's out of town. And they know what that means. And they know what that means.
58:00
They know what that means. And, and they're, these are my guys. So I'm going to get a call at around
58:06
seven that nine. How's, how's the good? What are you watching right now? And I'll be like, man,
58:10
I'm, I'm watching this. And then I'm going to call about nine. What are you doing? I'm like,
58:14
it's funny. You should ask, I'm working on this, or I'm doing this, you know, get another call
58:18
of 10. When you go into bed, I'm planning on going to bed here in a little bit. And that's not,
58:23
like that's what I've asked them to do. And because we're shield to shield, like we're,
58:28
we're making it, we're going to get to the end of this. And so if Josh lets me know, Natalie's out
58:33
of town, man, that's a serious thing for me. That that's a serious thing for me. And he does
58:39
something. I love this about Josh. Every night, when him and his wife get in bed, he reaches over,
58:45
he puts a hand on Natalie's shoulder and says, I've been faithful to you today in mind, body and
58:49
spirit. I've been faithful to you mind, body and speed does it every night. And I'd love that
58:55
practice. I, I don't do that. I think Lauren will be like, I'm trying to sleep. You know, like,
58:59
okay, great. Thank you. But, um, but we have committed to one another. And we know, like,
59:07
where's the enemy come at us? What are our compulsions? If it's a crappy day, how might I
59:12
respond? And we know that about each other. And, and we have freely shared that. And, and so they
59:18
know my compulsions. I know theirs and, and in an environment where I might be weaker than normal,
59:24
they know it and they're there. And, and they might, there've been times where Lauren's out of town,
59:28
like great. Let's all go to dinner. Let's all go to dinner. Let's not let you just sit around the
59:32
house by yourself for five hours. Cause that sounds dangerous. There you go, guys. I hope you
59:36
enjoyed part one of my interview with Matt Chandler. But before we let you go, we are going to do a
59:40
quick resilience boost at undaunted life or mission is equipping men to push back darkness with
59:43
content that forges spiritual mental and physical resilience. So here are the links I've got for
59:47
you today. I've got a link to his new book called the overcomers. We get way more into that in part
59:51
two of this. So again, come back later this week for part two. So the overcomers is there. I've also
59:55
got a link to all of his other books because he's written a lot of other books. So I just have an
59:59
Amazon link. So you can check them all out. And then the link to the village church website and the
1:00:02
axe 29 website. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to
1:00:06
this, please subscribe, right? And leave us a positive five star review. If you want to come
1:00:10
speak alive at your event or on your podcast to shoot me an email to info@undonton.life. That's
1:00:15
I N F O at undaunted life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website
1:00:20
for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
1:00:24
Just go to www.undaunted.life. And also we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use
1:00:30
their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their
1:00:34
self title debut album on face down records. The links are in the description. I'm your host Kyle
1:00:40
Thompson. Remember keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:00:46
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:01:06
Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. The message for everyone paying big wireless way too much.
1:01:11
Please for the love. Everything goodness world. Stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for
1:01:16
just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment.
1:01:22
Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan,
1:01:29
equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate for three months only. Then full price plan
1:01:33
options available, taxes and fees extra, see full terms at mintmobile.com.