MATT CHANDLER | Becoming Like Jesus (Ep. 910)

Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional, it is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31days to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31days. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Matt Chandler, I'm mad at you. Okay, again. Again. Yeah, this is kind of like a regular thing now. It is. It's and I'm I don't even I'm not even doing anything. I don't I think you're just angry. Well, this isn't your time to be my counselor, okay? You're not even my shepherd. All right. Yeah. >> I'm like, "Hey Kyle, I'm mad at you." I'm like, "What what's happening?" I did I say it like that? Now you sound like my wife. Well, that's that's a whole 'nother subject. >> We can talk about it later. But the thing I'm mad about is why in the world are we talking through the internet? Come on, man. We you you're just down the road. I know. And you're going to be here next week. Why did you do it there? This is your people, not mine. I tried. I tried to make it happen last week, but you're like, "Oh, I'm holy and important and I can't, you know, make any time for you while you're in town." It was it was something like that. It was something similar. >> saying any Maybe I said that to Andrea. I say to her often, "I'm holy and important. Tell that guy no." Well, just because I know she's in the room listening to you right now, I know she's not mean like that. I know that I know that you have that mean streak in you. You already accused me of being an angry ginger. Come on, man. You got a little bit of that inside of you as well. I can see it. >> Ginger or anger? Yes. The answer is yes. >> I've got even though I did get pretty sunburned just walking outside in Denver yesterday. So, I felt very Kylie. >> a little red. Looking a little red, sir. Now, just let the anger out. I know, I I trained this morning. It's all out of me. Ah, don't worry. We're going to talk a lot about Jiu-Jitsu. But, the main reason that you are What? >> not. Well, yeah, up to this point we've never not. What I did uh So, I I was talking to Kelsie the other day. We were kind of talking about like I was talking about this round that I went through. There's this young kid, great brown belt at our school, very very aggressive whenever he rolls, but he's so technical and precise. So, even when he rips a submission, you feel like he was under control. It's not like rolling with like a [ __ ] super big athletic white belt. And then Kelsie goes, "Do you realize that that's how people talk about you? Like in terms of how you roll about how they they're they're kind of scared, but then also like they they don't know what's going to happen, but then at the end of it it's almost okay." So, I guess uh first question, what's it like rolling with me? Is it like that? Do you Do you feel like you're being cared for in a very dangerous way? >> like I'm being cared for at all. I feel like there's some unresolved trauma in you that you're taking out on me. >> [laughter] >> That's how I feel rolling with you. What are you talking about? >> And I think you think what you're doing's for my good. Well, it's clearly for your good. It's not about my opinion on the matter. It's about what's true. We are people of the truth, Matt Chappelle. >> They're If somebody's what? Like higher belts are funny. Like some are going to let you work a little bit and then show you the last couple of minutes they were just letting you work. And then some higher belts are like, "No, no, no, no. I'm you're you're not I'm just going to destroy you." And I would I mean, I think I know which one Kyle is. And I think people who watch this are going to not be surprised. Like they're not going to think, "Wait, I I Kyle's the first kind." And then it's not I'm fine. [laughter] I've at least got enough training to like survive. I think when you have those guys in your groups, those are the guys I feel bad for. You're like, [snorts] "I'm going to show you this real quick." You show them very aggressively. Well, that's you know, it's about gears. A lot of people have a gearbox. Like they have a shifter and there's multiple numbers on that. Mine has a number and a letter. I've got N, I've got neutral [clears throat] and then I've got six gear. So there's not a whole lot of like stuff in between. I just don't really see the point of it. >> I've experienced that on multiple fronts. That's what I was >> But I will say part of it is because, you know, I I train at the Forge and it is aptly named because as I was reflecting back uh cuz you always send me these like, you know, uh passive-aggressive uh Instagram reels about, you know, calling out parts of my personality or jiu-jitsu game. And one of them was like, you know, this guy talking about how he doesn't really believe in letting people work. I just got to tell you, training a white belt and blue belt, I don't remember times where I felt like an upper belt. Like especially at our academy, like a purple, brown, black belt, competitive purple belt, brown belt, black belt. I don't feel like they were ever letting me work. The best I could ever expect or hope for is they're just going at 75, 80%, which is almost worse because you can tell they're not giving you all they all they got and they're still in complete control of of you and the match the entire time. And so I guess that's where I've gotten. Yeah, it's semantics. I'm I'm saying the same thing about. I'm just saying Ryan Kramer, uh Isaac going 75% is them letting me work, if you will. But that's not I'm not actually doing anything that I'm just escaping for a couple of seconds, trying to create a little bit of distance before they're back on me. Well, speaking of escaping, you did escape on even trying to pronounce Isaac's last name. So we have Ryan Kramer and then we have Isaac Tefowa. Uh it's Tau Efa. First of all, how dare you, racist? Well, don't worry, we'll get to that, too. But, hey, shout-out to the Jesus and Jiujitsu guys. Could there be any bigger sweethearts, but also incredibly dangerous human beings than those guys? >> No, not not that I've met. I mean, I'm sure there's some guys out there, but I haven't met them. Yeah. They're just great guys, and like, I just I appreciate everything that they're doing. Big supporters of what they're doing down there, not just at Double Five, but really all across the globe at this point. But, we'll we'll talk a little bit more Jiujitsu, but we're here to do a little business cuz you just won't stop writing things. You won't stop putting things into books and forcing them into bookstores. So, we got your brand new book right here, even though >> Look at this thing. Becoming like Jesus, the everyday journey to living a life of holiness. And so, one thing I thought that was interesting in here is that in the acknowledgements section of the book, you say that this book is 33 years in the making. Yeah. And then, so you kind of like extrapolate that out. But, in preparation for this interview, I I not only read Becoming Like Jesus, I went back and read The Explicit Gospel, which was your first foray into the publishing world. And I can almost see your your transition from kind of where you were then at that time during the ministry, cuz how how how long ago was that book released? 15 years ago? Yeah, it was it had to be it was right after cancer, so 2010, 2011. So, yeah, 15, 16 years. Yeah, so seeing how you're writing then and what you would focus on in terms of just the Bible, spiritualism even in general, and then reading what you wrote latest, I I felt like that was an interesting thing for me. But, in terms of the new book, why this book, why now, why you? Yeah, well, I think there are a couple of things that are colliding in me that provoke me. Um, the the first is I've been at The Village for basically a quarter of a century now. Uh, and the the 40-year-olds at The Village Church are the 20-year-olds who came to Christ out of like either irreligious or religious backgrounds. And they have I've been able to I've had a front row seat for them e- you know, getting married, having kids, some losing kids, some getting divorced, some careers that have taken off, some careers that took off and then exploded, um addictions fought, um baptizing their kids in the fear of the Lord or their kids are wayward. And And I'm using all these illustrations to go and and I'm watching the Lord hold these people and not waste any of that in his shaping force in their lives. And so that that's probably one of the primary drivers is a a privilege, a point of pastoral privilege I get, is to watch that play out in one place over 20-something years. So, you might know somebody who loves the Lord and and you've got this tiny little window into their lives. But But for me, it's it's I've gotten these, you know, this quarter century of watching this generation really grow and lose and win and gain and suffer and, you know, some of them have great marriages, some of them have brutal marriages, some of them are, you know, their health has been impeccable, others have battled cancer or developed diabetes, some have kids that are healthy and vibrant athletic and some have kids that are on the spectrum and they're navigating that and I've gotten to watch how Jesus doesn't waste any of that. And I And I want to I wanted to write about that because I I haven't heard a lot of bad teaching on sanctification, but there's a lot of bad believing about sanctification. And um like I haven't heard many preachers say that give your life to Jesus and it's going to be up and to the right, right? No suffering, no doubt, no disorientation, no it's just genie in a bottle. And I guess the prosperity guys say that, um, but it feels like those aren't as pronounced as maybe they were early in my ministry. Um, so but but Christians tend to believe that difficulty, hardship, disappointment a is somehow failure. And when those things happen, they have a tendency to create distance from God. They don't do what the men and women of the Bible show them they should do, which is take that disappointment to God, but they create space. They create space so they can try to fix it, clean it up, manipulate it, get some control over it, and then go back to God. And so saw a lot of that and then if you mix that with um, it's hard to talk about the deconstruction movement cuz it means you know, where you got one, you got one. But a thread in that movement is this idea of when this bad thing happened, when this suffering occurred, when this dream died, I knew Jesus wasn't real. Um, and so those two things, maybe because the age of the church I pastor, were colliding and I wanted more than preach on it. I wanted to write on it. Like what does it actually look like to become like Jesus over time? Well, when you talk about up and to the right, I mean chapter one is entitled it won't be up and to the right and you basically used jiu-jitsu as a scaffolding for that. Uh, you know, in 2022 at the age of 47 you decide, I'm going to take up jiu-jitsu. That sounds like a great use of my time and body. So I want to actually read this quote. I don't think anything lines up with the kind of journey we're on quite like Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Most of us have come to believe that our growth will always be up and to the right. We can accept that the beginning of any new endeavor might be challenging, but eventually that will be replaced by an expertise that leads to all joy and no pain. In BJJ, new positions styles attacks and opponents are introduced repeatedly. I'm not saying there aren't fundamentals that matter, but applying those fundamentals must be relearned and reapplied the entire time you train. That's what life is really like. And Matt, I'm kind of reminded, you know, late last year you and I had a conversation on the phone and you kind of were sounding like you had the blue belt blues a little bit to where it's like, you know, you're at an academy that doesn't do striping, they do belting but not striping. And so, you'll have a belt for a long period of time, you can't really feel like you're progressing. Everyone you're around is progressing too at different speeds but still progressing. And so, if they started way ahead of you, they're going to stay way ahead of you unless they completely stop training and you start training like a madman. So, talk a little bit more about that where you have this overall expectation that, "Oh yeah, Christianity, my Christian walk is just going to be up into the right." But, how Jiu-Jitsu, man, that's just like a perfect way to think about it. Yeah, I I love I I think one of the reasons Jiu-Jitsu so resonated with me is is this correlation like even if I think about training last week, like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, I had great days. Man, I was submitting higher belts, I was a problem. And then I was like, "I'm going to I'm just going to drop in at open mat." >> [laughter] >> I mean, I just got smashed absolutely hammered every round. Like just everyone I rolled with just hammered me. And so, then I'm going home going, "I I should probably should go back to CrossFit or something. I should do high reps or whatever that thing is." And I I think that's what I love about it and that so has mirrored my life with Christ where I'm in these seasons and it's just like the the anointing and presence of God, it it just feels so easy. And then I just feel like I'm I've got it. And and then there's this this other thing the Lord wants to do in me, create in me, build in me, cut out of me that requires me not to like win, but to lose. And and then it gets low, and then I feel like my prayers are only hitting the ceiling, and then I'm wondering why this outcome is different than this outcome. And and so that's the the way I talk about it, it you know the framework at the very end of the book is deep work over time in community. And that's the only way you're going to ever be transformed. It's the only way you're ever going to grow in jujitsu. Deep work over time in community. Well, and you we're going to go through a lot of the a lot of that. We're going to extrapolate that out to some of the bigger points of the book. But you really use the Beatitudes that we see in Matthew 5 as really the scaffolding overall of the book, right? You start with the theme of up into the right, but that's the scaffolding of the entire book. And then also in chapter one, you introduce the concept of our spiritual formation being like a coil laid horizontally, which they apparently got the point whenever they did your artwork. Okay, bam, there it is. So at first you're like that is a really random kind of rainbowy looking nonsense going on on the front of the book, and then you have to actually read it, and then you kind of get the point. But really just talk about the importance of the Beatitudes, and then obviously explain the concept of the coil laid horizontally. So if it's not up into the right, what is it? Right? That that was the first question. I know experientially, I know biblically it's not going to look like this. So what is it going to look like? So you can read the lives of the men and women in the Bible, and it it looks like this. It's every high and low is still moving them forward. So the highs aren't necessarily victories, and the lows aren't necessarily defeats. They're they're necessary shaping forces so that I'm I'm experiencing every high and every low as still forward progress. It's that idea that God doesn't waste anything. And then I wanted to answer the question, okay, what exactly are we talking about? Like like what is God forming in me? What does it like tangibly look like? And and Jesus kicks off the Sermon on the Mount. So, it's important to note that before he gets to the Beatitudes, he's just preaching the kingdom of God is at hand. So, the kingdom is broken into the domain of darkness. Like victory's here. And and what's the first thing he wants his listeners to know? Blessed are the and he gives these eight Beatitudes and I make the argument in the book, Jesus didn't come to find these people. He came to make them. Uh they are an embodiment of who he is, which is why you can take any one of these and you can look at the example that Jesus is, but you're in the coil. And and so you're going to learn blessed are the poor in spirit a thousand times in your life, but every time through is going to feel different, look different, be experienced differently because you're further down the coil. Uh and so that that's the that's the framework and there were there are plenty of theologians that would point to the Beatitudes as you you move through this in a one-time progression. I I think the first time through looks like that, but I think you're those those things start dancing together after that first run through. Well, then when you start going chapter by chapter, you start looking at the different statements from the Beatitudes. And so I want to go ahead and uh we're going to read a lot of quotes today from the book, guys. Again, it's called Becoming Like Jesus. Check it out. It's right there in the show notes. And Matt, you know I'm not much for uh and are deserved. Best book I read so far this year. So, guys, if you want to be if you want to overtake the top spot for the rest of the year, make sure that you uh write better books, okay? And then, you know, you you'll maybe be able to make my top list. But, let me read this quote from chapter 2. Poverty of spirit opens the door. When you truly recognize your utter need for God, pretenses collapse, self-reliance crumbles, and something honest begins. This is where every true movement towards Christ-likeness begins, not with strength, but surrender. So, Matt, you're talking to a largely male audience. About 90 95% of this audience is going to be male and always has been male. That's a word we don't like very much because we look at the word surrender and we equate it to something like cowardice or failure or something like that. And then, you've got kind of the Man, I I just get so frustrated talking to these quote-unquote men's ministers at these churches or these people that are running men's ministries. It's like their entire ministry circles the same drain, which is let's get strangers in the door that are men and then force them into groups with other men where they will surrender and bow and just open their hearts up. And I'm just like, "Guys, these men haven't done anything together. They've done nothing shoulder to shoulder at all, and you want them to get eyeball to eyeball and pour their hearts out." The only men that do that are ones that have a feminine temperament. Those are the ones that are drawn to a group like that. So, just talk to, you know, the the hard hitters, like the rough dudes in my audience that are like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, surrender. What are you talking about?" Yeah, but surrender's the path to victory. I mean, you have to look at Christ who is going to conquer sin and death and principalities and powers and every dark thing imaginable. Like, Christ is going to make I mean, he's going to conquer them. But, but he doesn't conquer them the way we think strength works. He He conquers them by surrendering to the will of the Father, giving himself over, uh right, emptying himself of his power and dying on a cross where then he then resurrects and ascends where he's now ruling and reigning at the center of reality. And so, the enemy's tactic on men is to convince them that it's all on them and their strength is the thing that's going to carry the day. And they're And that's not going to be true when it comes to the kingdom. Uh like surrender to the victory of Christ so that Christ can then hand you his victory is the pathway to win. It's not a path to win for you to not need Jesus because you're strong enough and you're masculine enough and you're That That's I mean, that's demonic stuff. But to surrender is to win. It's the counterintuitive upside-down kingdom of God. Well, and surrender actually leads to the sanctification process. And I'm just like, even myself processing what you were talking about earlier in terms of sanctification, I think part of the reason why there's so much confusion about sanctification is cuz there's a straight-up discipleship in a lot of churches to where it's like, you know, what I experienced as a 15-year-old knuckle-dragging knucklehead is whenever I stood up after the hellfire and brimstone sermon and said, "Hell sounds terrible. Like, I, you know, I want to I want to accept Christ." I'd already been baptized in my life, but I'm like, "No, no, no. Like, I actually believe this now. I'm a wretched black-hearted sinner that that needs, you know, to put my full faith into Christ." My discipleship essentially was an elder from the church took me to the back, had a 5-to-10-minute conversation with me after the sermon. We scheduled my baptism. And that was it. Right? And so, here I am, 15 years old, getting somebody to drop me off at the Salt Cellar, which was next to the Hastings in Lawton, Oklahoma. I go inside this bookstore that had really awkward music playing and a lot of very soft people leading me to the section where I needed to buy the most extreme-looking Bible because obviously that's the one I need to read. And then just digging in on my own. And I've got enough type A in my personality where that helps, but you still run aground. And you do talk about this a little bit more in chapter two, so I want to read a quote. It's a It's a lengthy quote, but I think it's important. Okay. In one season we may be star for righteousness, aching over injustice in our lives or in the world, and find satisfaction in repentance or reconciliation. Yet in a very in the very next we may be exposed again for how shallow the sanctification truly was, or sorry, the satisfaction truly was. A man who once found rest in meekness may feel fury bubbling up in traffic, at home, or in conflict. That isn't a failure, it's a summons to go deeper. What we thought was a finished work turns out to be scaffolding for something sturdier. In God's kindness, sanctification often dismantles what we thought was strength to rebuild it in truth. That's why the early church fathers called the Christian life a second baptism, not of water, but of tears. You don't cry because you're failing, you cry because you're refined. And a little bit later in the chapter you end with this, it it is not that we become stronger, but that we learn to rest in his strength more fully. So, let's tease that out some more. Yeah, you know, I'm going to the I'm going to stay on throughout this entire book certain themes. And and one of the big themes of this book is through perpetual confession and repentance move towards the presence and power of God. The the the formation of holiness is found not just in knowing facts and figures, but allowing the Holy Spirit to expand your capacity for the presence and power of God in your life. And and this is, you know, I'm 33 years into the game. That that's how long I've been following Jesus at the time that we're recording this. And I have over and over again thought, "Okay, that's done. Put a pin in that." Only to find in the next season something to set it off again, or two seasons later, or, you know, 10 years later, something provoke and wake that thing back up in me, and then I've got to go do a deeper work again where the maybe it's that the Lord needed to cut to this level or layer and then let me heal and then circle back around and cut even deeper uh the next time. Um there are surgery Sometimes there's surgeries that are necessary for other surgeries. You got to get this surgery to get to this surgery. Uh that what I'm writing that sees that there's a spiritual reality to some of that, too, where for God to get to the thing that he really wants to get out might kill you right now. So so let me do some other things until we get there. So maybe an equivalent would be um like God's leading the people of Israel out of Egypt and he takes them the long way around because he knows if they see the Philistines, they will quit. They they will run back to slavery, but in a couple of years, when I show them my might and power, when I show that what I can do in the wilderness, then they'll be ready to fight the Philistines, and they'll do it. And so I wonder if I don't wonder. What I'm trying to help people with is go, "Yeah, you you might have to fight that again. And and your experience of that fight will be different, but the victory's been given to you in Christ. Let him expand your capacity to work." And with your expansion of capacity, you would assume come wisdom. Because one thing I think people don't understand is wisdom is not information, right? Cuz there's plenty people that have plenty of information. They shouldn't know what to do with it, but wisdom itself is a gift. And in chapter 3, you you know, you list a bunch of different proverbs that really have to do with wisdom. And then this quote, "I'm highlighting the passages from Proverbs because I I meet very smart men and women who lack wisdom. They have PhDs, run businesses, are physically fit, etc. But they lack the wisdom to achieve the blessed life that Jesus wants to create in us. And I've talked about this a lot because really it's been on my mind ever since Charlie Kirk was assassinated last year and then the just the immediate conspiracy theorizing and all the different things that kind of seem to change or that broke in our body politic. And I think we have this crisis of discernment in our culture. Because in you know, we'll leave normal culture out of it, but let's even go to church culture. You have a bunch of people that purport to be Christians that even purport to be a evangelicals, but you can tell by the things that they believe that they don't believe that the Bible's the highest authority for their life. I mean, Ligonier and Lifeway did the state of theology 2025 that I've talked a lot about here recently. And in order to be considered an evangelical in survey, you had to check these four different boxes. The very first one is that the Bible's the highest authority for your life. But then half of evangelicals don't think that God created man or marriage between man and one man and one woman. You know, a more a majority of evangelicals believe that God accepts the worship equally of Christians, Jews, and Muslims and and all these things. And you're like, wait a minute. This isn't a crisis of information. This is a crisis of discernment and also rampant biblical illiteracy at the same time where biblical ubiquity apps, books, you know, devotionals, podcasts are out there. And yet people aren't consuming the information and then putting it in any type of an applicable way. There's a discernment gap and a wisdom gap. Go. Yeah, no. You I think both Ligonier, Lifeway, and what you're saying and even what I'm trying to do at the church I pastor, which is how do you biblically serve them in a way that they can apply the word of God both to life and to the the world they inhabit. And so I I think another thing you'll see is that it's not that people don't know Bible verses. Um like like you you can see like all sorts of depravity online and and see uh you know, Philippians 4:13 and Jeremiah 29:11 uh attached to it. So, the there's something about the way we're serving up the Bible to people that that is not sinking in. And then I think there are a lot of guys who are unwilling to maybe uh let the word of God bear its weight on the cultural moment we might be in. Or and I understand that. I've gotten myself in trouble there and um I think I've served the Lord well there depending you know, in different seasons of my life. It's a scary thing to enter the fray like that and some guys feel ill-prepared or too dumb and don't really understand the thing. So, they they they'll never really let the word of God bear its weight on the lives and the moment that their people are in. And so, that's I think the a big part of the gap right now. It's not that they can't listen to a Bible app or that they don't have a a way to read their Bible every morning or that the guy at church isn't teaching the Bible. It's that they're they're confused at how to apply it to their lives and to the moment that they find themselves in. Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you train for very specific things. 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And for a limited time, Mountain Tough is extending Undaunted Lifers like you an incredible offer. Go to mountaintough.com, that's mtntough.com, and enter the code Kyle when you sign up for a monthly plan to receive your first month free after your 14-day trial. So, that's 6 weeks free to make sure this is for you. I'm sure it will be. That is 6 weeks free on the best-in-class physical and mental training app in the world. So, stop wasting time. It's time to get real fitness results. Let my friends at Mountain Tough guide the way. Again, go to mtntough, that's mountaintough.com, promo code Kyle. Well also um >> [clears throat] >> there's so much information, and then at the same time, people think that the consumption of the information leads to transformation itself. It's like, no, there's got to be some level of application here. And you I mean, you talk about it again in chapter 3 where you talk about people like Peter Attia and Chris Williamson and and Andrew Huberman and those types of guys. And I listen to those guys. Those are kind of like, you know, optimization guys, biohacking. They they talk a lot about health span, not just lifespan, cuz if you live a long time, but the last 15 years of your life are absolutely miserable because you're all broken up and busted, like that's not a good thing. And so I'm pro those guys, but I'm going to read this quote from you from chapter three. I listened to and learned from each of these men, but I constantly remind myself that a fully optimized version of myself will still be me. And your fully optimized version of yourself will still be you. And as we say in recovery at the village, where you are, there you are. The biggest false savior at work against us today is the belief that we can save ourselves, that we can be our functional savior. This is called self-actualization. Now, there's some very pernicious beginnings to this for a lot of people in generalized atheistic and secular culture, but obviously these are lies from the pits of hell because if Satan can convince you that you can take care of business for yourself, you're going to be drawn to one of those other religions that keep score, like Judaism or Islam, and you're going to be drawn away from the finished work on the cross at Golgotha. And you'll And again, you talk about this just doing ministry there in Texas. Gosh, how hard is it to convince somebody in Texas that they're not a Christian? Because they were raised in it, they understand what going to church is like, they know what the the uniform looks like, they can spout off some verses, and they know about Jesus, they know some facts from the back of the baseball card. But they don't know him in like a spiritual soul level, so let's talk a little bit more about that. Yeah, well, I think in one way it's the irony of my life that like I have a real heart for the prodigal son, and God sent me to the older brother. And my whole ministry has been a ministry to the older brother. I'm I'm speaking of the the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15, where you have the younger brother that goes off and ruins his inheritance with prostitutes and parties. Then the older brother is kind of the rule follower and never broke any but didn't really have an intimate relationship with the father, either. And the the story is ultimately about the father, not either son, but the I have a real heart for people who are in grimy situations. And I don't have a ton of patience for self-righteousness. Uh probably tied to my own story. And um that the Lord put me where he put me. And even when I first got here, I thought I'd be here 3 years and then go someplace like San Francisco or something like that. Um but my whole life's been spent with the older brother. So, it's not uncommon for me and some of my friends who like might be in New York, or Seattle, or Toronto to talk about whose job's harder. And and I don't Maybe that's the wrong question. I think each has unique difficulties. Um like I I think my role here is harder because I'm trying to convince somebody they're not a Christian so that they can become one. And C. S. Lewis would say like the prostitute's not under any illusion that her life's come on the way she thought it would. And so, when you get into >> [snorts] >> more secular like hardline secular settings, uh I I think the outcome of the lies of secularism are going to bear their head in a way that are more hidden in like a Bible Belt kind of community. They're all here. They're just hidden a a bit with money and with bless her heart and with you know making sure you you play the part. I have a friend of mine he's fire chief here in town. But before he was here is in South Dallas like in one of the harder places in Dallas like a place you don't want to live. And when people find out that he's he used to be down there that that he'll they'll say to him man I bet you're glad you're up here now. And he will say that I've heard him say it like 20 times. He's like everything that's down there is here. It's just hidden and covered up with with money and success. And and so that it's a challenging thing to help people understand look I don't care if you got baptized when you were not. I don't care if you won Bible drill as a fifth grader. If you don't love the Lord if there's nothing in you that that's wanting to follow him wanting to obey him wanting to honor him then I don't I'm confused at what your Christianity is. You've got to have and I'm not saying you're like on fire for the Lord. I'm just saying man you you want to honor him with your life. You you love him. You understand that he has authority over you. And then you're imperfectly working that out. That you can even be doing terrible at it. But at least it's there. But for someone who has no intent no love no plans to submit to the Lord to define themselves as Christian. That that's got me in trouble a little bit over the years. Well that's the self-actualization thing. You spend a lot of time in the city that I live in and it's the same thing here. Feels like Camelot right? The men are jacked and successful the women look nice you know all the the lawns [clears throat] are manicured and the kids are in all the different sports and they've got private swinging lessons for their their little kid that likes to golf and their older brother that likes baseball and it's all just kind of wrapped up in all this, but then when you talk to pastors that actually do pastoral work in this area, they're like, you wouldn't believe the depravity, the substance abuse, the swinging, the abortions for for these teenage girls. And I use the example all the time because it's their 15-year-old daughter gets pregnant. They don't want to take her into church pregnant. They don't want to have to explain that to the guys in the boardroom. So, they just pay a few hundred bucks to make the problem go away. And what they've done is murdered their grandchild, right? >> Yep. And so, it it it's it's there and it's pervasive, but we just don't think of it that way. But we talked about kind of ideologies that get snuck in within really kind of like uphold self-actualization. Well, in chapter three, you talk about and you identify the most pervasive Trojan horse ideologies that have infiltrated the church. So, you talk about moral therapeutic deism, progressive Christianity, gender theory, religious pluralism, doubt as a virtue, right? Which basically is deconstruction and unbiblical empathy. Some people call it toxic empathy, whatever the thing is. But another one that you list is critical theory and identity politics. Yeah. But one of the things that people will claim about you and will throw at you is like, well, wait a minute, Pastor Chandler, you actually brought part of this on. You helped build the Trojan horse that is critical theory and identity politics because you went full CRT. I watched MLK 50 and this is what you said. And you know, I think you've said this before. If you've ever said it, you've always said it. That's kind of the the virtue of if you put things out like sermons or speeches or podcasts, if you've ever said it, you've always said it even if you've changed your mind. But I can hear the people now. The the people at whatever website that loves dunking on pastors and doing all those things and finding the little things wrong with them, they're going to key in right on that and be like, "Hey, who are you to talk about these Trojan horses when you actually helped it go on?" So, what would your response be? Yeah, you know, when I wrote it, I I probably expected that this question to come up, maybe even at some level wanted it too. Um I I think I feel as passionately as I ever have about the beauty of what the cross of Christ has purchased us in regards to the nations, ethnos, people groups, and and how he's torn down the walls of hostility. Um I I know I have said things historically that people who on this issue that people who love me and knew me well approach me just to go, "Hey, I we think you're you're you're moving into a place that we think is outside the bounds of the scriptures." And and they they really won me. If you think of that last chapter of James, like go get your See your brother and then go grab him and see if you can win him back. Well, I I felt like I was won back. And then um yeah, I think that accusation's going to follow me the rest of my life. The The truth is uh it's not what I believe anymore. I'll have to carry that I said some of those things the rest of my life, but I apologized and sought forgiveness from the Village Church, and then we took everything down that that that I had said or done that that was in our control that we believed was tied to critical theory, not diversity, not reconciliation, but critical theory in particular. What what's been interesting is people who hate that um are are the ones that take those clips and still use them. So, on our end, those clips are dead. Um but because we're in the digital age, they're they're never going to be dead. So, I I feel like I've owned it as best I know how. Um and then people who want to make that accusation against me can make that I I know I've sought forgiveness. I know I was wrong. Well, and you Here's the thing, you you've talked about this before. You're a shepherd for a particular flock. As a writer, Hebrews upholds you're going to have to give an account for how you've shepherded that flock. I'm not going to have to give an account for the people in my audience cuz I'm not their shepherd. I'm encouraging them to find one, to obey their shepherds, to submit to their shepherd. But just to elucidate it even a little bit further, I feel like and there's there's plenty of different things. For some people, it was when Michael Brown was killed and they believed the lie that he had his hands up when he was shot, which there's no evidence to to say that that happened. All the evidence points in the opposite direction. For some people, it's 2020 with George Floyd. For some people, it was the rise of Black Lives Matter. For some people, it was the pressure from their HR organization at their the place of business or whatever. But I I want to kind of figure out, okay, how did you even get to a place where you created, wrote, and delivered the sermons that you now regret doing? Because, you know, for some people, it's when a black person is killed by police and almost every single time it's justified, even if it's not justified, that's not an example that extrapolates out to the larger LEO population. But then also, they read The Wrath of Other Sons and then all of a sudden, they are to lecture the entire planet on what it means to bring the nations together. And so it's like, if you were to look back is like, okay, how did I even get to this place to where I cuz no one gets the sense that you don't believe in the stuff you're preaching. I think everybody believes that, hey, Matt Chandler, he could be wrong. I might quibble with his theology or his language, but he believes what he's saying. How did you even get to that place to where now you feel like, yeah, crap, I'm going to have to wear that one. Yeah, I I think it was a slow drift, not a fast one. I don't think it was a single thing. I think I had really good friends and hard contexts, very different than my contexts, uh who I was asking questions of and trying to understand and um trying to make sense of what I was seeing and sensing and um men that I trusted and and believed in and it's not like they betrayed me. I think from where they sit and where their churches are, they're going to see things very different than maybe I see them. Uh but I So I was was giving benefit of the doubt as a guy who's not in a context that Look like our our context predominantly white. Uh we're never going to be If we're ever like truly full on diverse, it's going to be uh with East Indies uh East Indians, not not African-Americans. And um but I I had these friends that that I was super close with that I'd been with for a long time that were pointing out things I couldn't see and I wanted to learn. And so more than it was a moment, it was this kind of continual conversation that then I wanted to be in the fight with those guys. And discernment was you know, it was not where it needed to be in that season. And so I don't know that it was a specific moment. And then again, I don't I might still believe certain things about diversity and reconciliation that would still make people think that I'm woke. It's To me, it's not diversity's not It was the the critical theory that was the issue, not striving for and longing for a deeper healing between the races. Okay, very good. Well, I need to move on to something cuz again, you made me mad throughout the entire book because you just refused to use an example that's not Lord of the Rings. And so I did endure all of that nerd-dom. But then finally, I got a reprieve. Finally, hush your mouth. Finally, in chapter four, we got some real man stuff, some heavy hitter stuff. Let's go. And that's The Lion King, okay? So you bring up the concept of Hakuna Matata and you contrast that with, you know, the blessed are those who mourn. And so obviously, you know, I think most people at this point at least colloquially understand what happened in The Lion King. But you know, you have Simba who's basically running away from his responsibilities after he suffered the loss of his father, right? Everyone endured that. I did it at the age of five. It still affects me to this day. But the the same thing is true. Maybe that's what's happening when we're rolling. I'm thinking about Simba. I'm thinking about, you know, the injustice of Scar and what he did to Mufasa. Maybe that's what's coming out, Matt. We can think about that more later. But ultimately, you do have a lot of these people that have somehow believed the lie that, "Hey, let's just go for Hakuna Matata. It means no worries, right? Let's just sing and dance and let's celebrate, you know, let's just eat, drink, and be merry. Let's not really worry about the real things. Let's not process, you know, anything that happened in our childhood. Let's not process any of the pain or abandonment we're feeling now. Let's not process any of the anxiety we're feeling about the future, whether it's 10 years from now or tomorrow. But again, you you make the big point in that chapter, chapter four, where it's like, "No, no, no. Blessed are those who mourn. Blessed are those who mourn." Which is just completely counter to everything culture wants to tell us. Yeah. The The Puritans used to pray for the gift of tears. I always loved that concept. Like, where their heart wasn't broken for their own sin or the sin of the world or the the state of reality, they would ask God for the gift of tears. To break their heart over, again, their own sin. Like Like I don't want to think too lightly about my own sin. I want to see it as it is, lest I justify it and it grow into something that could absolutely destroy my world and burn it to the ground. Then I also want to look out at the world and be provoked by the brokenness. I I want to feel the sorrow of God for his creation. The these Like the Puritans, they would ask for these things. This is what's in view. Blessed are those who mourn. When you get a sense of the heart of God um for for the brokenness in your world and in your own soul. And so blessed are you because when you understand your own sinfulness compared to the holiness of God, not compared to that herd of morons you're running with, right? You should always be able to pick out four or five people that you're like morally superior to. But that's not the that's not the standard. The standard is the holiness of God. And the holiness of God will like obliterate anything that that has even a smidge, a tinge of unholiness to it. And and so we we plead the blood of Christ and lean into the blood of Christ because it covers us from all that and right saves us from being obliterated by the holiness of God. We want to feel the weight of our sin, mourn it. I hate this about me, change me. Then I want to look at the brokenness of the world and go God has something better for this place than this. Well, I mean there are a lot of Matt Chandlerisms out there. Are you tracking with me? One of my favorite ones is herd of morons. So I'm just going to tell you that right now. You keep that one in your sermons. You keep bringing that up. >> I'll put that on t-shirt on the book tour. >> good band name. Band name, I called it. Bam. So herd of morons, right? It's It's a little on the nose, but we'll go with it. But I mean even in chapter four as you kind of like extrapolate that argument out further, you talk about the presence and the effect that surface and source idols have on us and how they impact us or you know, impact us. So how would you describe surface and source idols? Yeah, so that that's not original to me. That's Dick Coe who I think Keller kind of popularized in counterfeit gods. And and the idea is that most of the things that we're kind of aware of, that we're dealing with in our life would be like like a surface idol. It would be something that you would name right now. That you you know, you've got a pornography issue or you have an anger issue or you have some Those are kind of surface idols. Underneath those are what they called source idols. And and these are um kind of the the bigger soul level issues that need to be healed in us. There's four of them. There's comfort, approval, power, and control. And and all idolatry flows from one of those four source idols. That's That's the argument. Uh I I think after 30 years in the game, I I would agree that one of those four is probably driving uh your life. And and one of those four, if not more than one of those four, you really need to keep an eye on lest you take your attention and affection off of the Lord and put it on that and give yourself over to it. Well, I think even as I was reading, I was circling ones that I felt like, "Yep, that one's me. That one's me." Like, that's one of the benefits, guys. Like, all kidding aside, you know, I'm the type of guy I can't write in a physical book. It's just something I just I couldn't write in my textbooks. I can't really write in my Bible. It just doesn't jive with that. But if you need to, like, you know, get a PDF version of a book, you know, print out your ePub so that you can actually write in and take notes cuz you're going to have a thought about how this applies to you or how you can apply it to your life. And then it'll just disappear like a fart in the wind. So, it's more effective if you can kind of like approach it that way. But then when we get to chapter five, you talk about meekness. You've talked about this a lot. I've talked about this a lot. I guess we need to, you know, we get new listeners every week. Very thankful for you guys. But we kind of need to dispense with what people think meekness means, right? This is old hat for you, but it's going to be new for other people. But then also, you had an interesting twist in the chapter where you talk about how Christian meekness in its actual form didn't really jive with first-century Roman culture, with the Roman Empire. And I mean, you know, technically Christian meekness still doesn't jive today. So, let's dig into that a little bit. Yeah, so the the idea of meekness is what I think the lie is that that meekness is like you're weak or you're some kind of [ __ ] or you're But, there are only two people in the Bible called meek. Uh right? Moses and Jesus. And and Moses goes toe-to-toe with Pharaoh and Jesus is clearing the temple. And and that wasn't some little tiny little rectangle with 40 people in it. Those are acres that he's driving hundreds and hundreds, if not a couple thousand people out of. So, so these are not doormat men. Uh they're very strong men, but it's a strength under control. It it's not used for their own gain, their own power. It it's but it is it's fierce, but under control. And and so that that's that's biblical meekness. It's not that I'm a doormat. It's that there's an immense amount of strength in me that I'm going to use as God kind of appropriates it. All right. So, I think that's helpful for a lot of guys because again, so if someone were to come up to you and be like, "Man, you're really meek." You'd be like, "Bro, I'll show you meek. Let's go outside, right?" And it's just like, "No, but like But but But if if if someone were to come up to you in a brotherly, godly, king's table, foxhole type of context and be like, "Brother, I've seen so much of meekness out of you." They're saying, "Bro, you are a like you are strong. >> Yeah. Like you're a stallion of a horse, but you're bit bridled by your rider and the rider is Jesus." And I mean like what a compliment that you could get. Yeah. Now, in in chapter six, we're just continuing to work our way through becoming like Jesus. You know, you talk about blessed are the hungry. You talk about righteousness and how, you know, people have even trouble defining it properly. But, I want to read this quote from chapter six. One of the more consistent pictures of our relationship with God as we think about right relatedness is the picture of the covenant of marriage. Now, I want to talk to you about this and I'm going to, you know, talk to some other people about this around this same time because there's been a heartbreaking thing that I feel like has happened for me over these last several months. I'm getting these DMs and these emails from guys in my audience and they are desperate. They are desperate. And it's because their marriage is on the rocks. Maybe, you know, there's been infidelity on one side or the other. Maybe there's, you know, this desire for reconciliation, but it's only on their side, not on their wife's side. And again, I'm I take all the messages with a grain of salt cuz I'm getting a shortly encapsulated version of two people's entire lives. >> Yeah. >> And I'm only getting one perspective that might be a little foolhardy. But I'm even talking to these guys that are like, "Look, you know, you know, my wife stepped out of our marriage. I'm I'm doing everything I can. I'm I'm taking us to counseling. Like I'm trying to, you know, do all the Ephesians 5 verses that apply to me and ignore the ones that apply to her. And I keep showing up and here's a list of things that I've done and none of it's working, whatever working means. And they're just desperate and they're stuck. And then I'm stuck because not only am I sitting here with a deficiency of information cuz I don't have a lot of it, but now I'm stuck in this place where I'm trying to give specific advice that ends up just being way too generic. But what I've found is telling these guys, "Hey, man, you just read Ephesians 5, ignore those verses that apply to her, only work on the verses that apply to you." It doesn't lead It doesn't seem That's the right answer. Yeah. >> that. It doesn't seem livable. It doesn't seem workable with where they're at. And then, you know, just telling these guys like, "Hey, man, to live [clears throat] is Christ, to die is gain. We're guaranteed suffering. This is just your suffering. Hey, you're just Hosea. You know, no big deal. If If, you know, Hosea can do it, you can do it." And I just I find my advice I find myself to be flat-footed, which I hate, and that my advice is is mediocre at best. And you've talked a lot about the first 7 years of your relationship with the wonderful Lauren Chandler were just just dog water, just terrible. And you know, you you've gone past that, you figured some things out. But I'll let you speak directly to these guys cuz they're listening to this right now and they're like, man, just ignore the verses for her and live out the ones for you. Gosh, it doesn't seem workable. Well, the I think the more important thing that like if your relationship is that that's where it is right now, there's not a light switch here, man. There's not. There's not a give me the thing I can do that changes this. That that just doesn't It It was a process to get you here and it will be a process to get you out of here. And that, you know, it's funny to me is this like with this moment that we're in where like dude culture is like do hard things like and do who's going to carry the boats? Who's going to you know, and then and then when it comes to took me 10 years to create this mess in my marriage. Somebody give me the three things I need to do right now so it'll be better next week. Uh and and maybe that's maybe that's not fair. Maybe like I've been trying for a couple years. Um I think there has to be um some humility before God that trusts that he is accomplishing something in our powerlessness to bring about the outcome we want even if the outcome is something good that he says we should want. He He I want to make the argument in the book and I think I do make that God's not going to waste anything. And so if I look at that 7 years with Lauren, if I look at the 3 years of cancer, if I look at some of the controversies I've been stuck in, if I look at these really low moments of my life, Some of them were long, 7 years. Some of them were short, three or four weeks. Some of them I was in and I didn't even know I was in them. And we've talked about that stuff before about being in second gear and not even realizing it. Yep. Um I can, at 51, 33 years in, look back and look at certain seasons and go, I would never want to do that again. I I would never want anyone to have to endure that. But can look at the man I am now and try to trace its roots and it goes back to those seasons. And And so if that 7 years with Lauren turned into 14 years, turned into 21 years, I I don't have another play except that to trust that God is at work in my life and that he's at work in Lauren's life and that maybe the best marriage we're ever going to have is a six and not a 10 and that somehow, in some mysterious way, God is at work in that, in her and in me, for his glory and our good. And And I I don't have a better answer than that. It It is so slow at times and so heartbreaking. I mean, this is the number one felt need of people everywhere. Like, marriage is hard everywhere. It's two centers trying to live in a house and if you throw any like actual big T trauma uh on either one of them in that house, it it feels like climbing up Everest naked. But it's not impossible. The hope should remain. But understanding, there's not a light switch here. And so with with a lot of people, I think that they would acknowledge that there's no light switch. And then guys get down to the Okay, so what do I do today? What do I do tomorrow? And I'll say something that's true, but it's like, "Hey, control the controllables." Like, you can only control you and the things you do. Like that We all have some level of control over ourselves. But it's the hopelessness that I have trouble addressing for these people. I don't have a hermeneutic for it other than, you know, one day it'll be as if every tear was never shed and that no sin it was ever occurred and we'll have a new heavens and new earth and somehow we're not going to be thinking about that because we're going to be doing whatever we're supposed to be doing in heaven, right? Which will include work and things to do and there will be, you know, things for type A's to do up there. But for the ones down here that are like there's some version of they've lost all hope to where they feel like they're losing it or they're hanging on by their own, you know, gusto and stick-to-itiveness. Like their American individualism or whatever. And it's just still all leading to the same place, which is like, "Am I just wasting my time here?" Because what I tell Cuz I've always been that guy, Matt. Like when when guys when I was in my 20s were were getting divorces or talking about getting divorces, I was the only guy swimming upstream in these guys' lives and being like, "I know. I acknowledge everything you just said. And you know what? I agree with you. But brother, let's let's keep going. You made a covenant. You made a covenant. Like Like let's just stick with this. And for most guys, they just want to hit the easy button and and Ozempic their way out of the marriage. But at the same time, like, you know, for the guy that's just like in absolute dire straits, like, what would you say if you were his pastor and counseling him? Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm actually in I'm never not in this scenario that you're describing. Like even a guy I was having a conversation with today whose marriage has just been brutal and it's got all the kind of pieces that make it harder than than you can imagine in that there's you know, a ton of like sexual abuse and stuff in the background and there's mistrust and there I mean you if you name it, it's in this marriage. And he is I mean he's such a good dude, man. He He just he He's loved her well. He's contended for their marriage for 19 20 years now. Like contended. Prayed, held on hope, and then he'll run out of gas, man. And then he'll run out of gas. And I think he's in a season right now where he's just like, "Can't do it, man. Can't do it." And so what I'm trying to do with him right now is remind him this is the fourth time he's told me he can't do it. And we've not not We have not Not all seasons have felt like this. He's had seasons where it got real sweet for a while and then something triggered or something set off his wife again and everything kind of unraveled. So it's not been like 20 years of this without stop. There've been some really tender, really fun, really romantic seasons woven in to this kind of greater story of man, this is difficult. And so what I did today is or earlier this morning is just reminded him of how the Lord has moved this farther than he thought the Lord would have moved it when we first started talking about this, you know, 17 years ago. And but maybe somebody's listening to this and they don't even have that horizon to to consider or look at, then I've got to I've got to do what the Bible bid me to do and call you to your covenant vows. And to hope and to believe, you know, Joby says it all the time, "If the resurrection's true, you know, what what can't what can't the Lord accomplish? What can't he do?" And so I would just keep and be honest with God, man. Be honest with the Lord, man. I can't I don't know how much longer I can do this. Just don't do that thing. I talk about that a ton in the book. Man, just say it to him, man. Like if Jeremiah can say you deceived me and I was deceived, you can say I'm having a real hard time loving this woman like you've asked me to. Well, and yeah, I mean, if the tomb is empty, anything is possible. And the one thing I have told these guys is so in this dude, this applies to a difficult marriage, difficult relationship, someone that you hate in the political sphere, or an enemy of yours or all that, pray to God, can you help me see them like you see them? Yeah. Because I was a dirty broken lost sheep and you came running after me, right? And so is that person. So it's like pray God, help me see them as you see them and see if your heart softens. I have an assumption that it will. And and even in the same chapter, you know, off of off of the marriage subject, in this this applies for the doer guys in my audience as well. You talk about performance-based love and you talked about yourself and you kind of laid it all out there for you. You were a performance-based person and you got to this place where you're like, I have to keep running at a high level because if I downshift or if I strike out or something like that, no one's going to love me. Yeah. And I think there are more people in in this audience and certainly in any audience that would would would listen to a similar message that feel that way. They're like, I am valuable because I'm blank, right? And so I'm valuable because I'm a good athlete. I'm valuable because I'm smart. I'm valuable because I'm funny. I'm valuable because I'm productive, because I'm successful, because I have money. And then they're just inserting something in there that can't actualize them and certainly can't save them. Yeah. I I think one of the things that well, you know, to kind of unpack a little bit what you were saying, like my the big lie that that I have been battling most of my life without even knowing it is that I am I am useful, but not necessarily lovable. Right? I'm I'm useful. That that's what I am. And so, what this does is like if I'm if I'm useful, then I matter, which means I've got to build, I've got to achieve, I've got to accomplish, I've got to win. And man, in my 30s, like in my 30s, I'd have like panic attacks as I was getting sick because [laughter] when I was sick, I couldn't I couldn't do, I couldn't accomplish. And then I would literally I'd be in this spiral. It was super confusing to Lauren. She was just like, "Hey, why are you why are you freaking out right now? What's what's going on?" But because for me, it's like, "Man, if I don't if I don't do this, if I don't accomplish this, I'm in a lot of trouble." Um I I think it's I think it's funny not funny, but it's telling uh that like God instituted the Sabbath and that Israel took the the Sabbath so seriously. >> [snorts] >> Like what you were able and allowed to do during the Sabbath is like it it was insane. Like you couldn't you couldn't walk a certain amount, you couldn't cook, you couldn't There were all these kind of like I'll I'm I'm just pulled up what I wanted to to read. So, here's a comprehensive list of activities that were Sabbath violations. Sewing, plowing reaping binding threshing winnowing grinding sifting kneading baking, shearing wool, bleaching or dyeing wool, spinning, weaving, tying or untying knots, sewing or tearing stitches, hunting, [snorts] writing or erasing letters, building, demolishing, kindling or extinguishing fire, hammering, carrying objects from one place to another. Now, here here's what Like what in the world are you supposed to do? >> [laughter] >> Like you can't go for a walk. Like you you literally they they had yardage my like you can't What do you What do you actually do? And it seems to me that the Lord wanting to drive the wickedness of that lie out of us, that we are what we do, instituted the Sabbath to free men from the tyranny of I am what I can produce. Um, and then not to mention all the festivals and feasts required the the stopping of normal work. And so it's like in the Lord's big formation plan for his people, there was a crap ton of no, you sit there and you be, you don't do. And and I think that's telling for how serious this lie is in us that says I am what I do, I am what I produce. And I think for a lot of men, you know, I saw a video the other day, I wish I could remember who posted it, but he was just basically going through all the things men have to focus on in modernity. It's like, be tall, be jacked, have money, don't forget date night. Hey, you got to make sure you date your kids as well. Also, TRT, also peptides, also you have to know how to fight, also you have to be tender, also and he just ran this list for like two minutes. And I was like, oh my gosh, like guys are just constantly doing and everybody wants a pound of flesh, right? Their wife, their children, their boss, their co-workers, their buddies. Everybody wants a little bit and no matter who you serve and no matter who you take it, you know, take things to, someone will feel like they deserve and need to be served more. And so there's a lot of pressure on the man and that can turn into this performance-based ideology. No question. >> So, uh, we're actually going to skip on to chapter nine, blessed are the peacemakers. And so, you do we're going to talk about this through several different questions, but you you provided difference between a peacekeeper and a peacemaker. So, help us understand the difference. Yeah, so peacekeeping actually, I think leads to most of the major blow-ups in our lives. It It's when I'm not I'm going to do whatever I can to keep the peace. I'm not going to tell you the truth because that might unsettle things. I'm not going to get involved here because that might I'm not going to say anything. Like like peace peacekeeping makes you a bit of a coward. It It will keep you from a small little potential skirmish at the cost of a war later. Um but peacemakers are willing to early on engage with the truth in a way that's motivated by love that most I have seen most frequently literally take the ignition switch out of the the bomb that could blow up 2 years down the line because you were you were too concerned with everybody being happy and nobody being confronted back here. So, you let it slide until it blew up in your face up here. Now, the collateral damage is super significant. And And so, that's how I'm distinguishing between these two. There's a way to just keep the peace where you're you're not speaking out of turn, you're not bringing up inconsistency, you're not pointing out sin, you're not getting involved in where you see abuse, you're just kind of You don't want You just want everybody to get along. And then there's the call on our lives to be peacemakers, to go right into those things with grace and truth for the explicit hope of making peace. Well, and beyond that, you talk about it's not just niceness cuz a lot of people will hear everything you just said and they go, "Great. All I have to do is follow the 11th commandment, thou shalt be nice." So, disabuse us of that notion. Yeah, no, there Well, like the a friend who stabs you in the front is still a friend stabbing you. Yeah. Right? That that's not that there's there can be great offense in peacemaking. In fact, I've experienced offense. I have felt offense at someone trying to do this in my life and I have experienced people being frustrated with me as I was trying to do it in theirs. And and that's why I wrote some of those stories in that chapter because like like this is not niceness. That this is the hope of peace, real peace in a world broken by sin. And beyond that, you really talk about, you know, you talk about the brokenness of sin. There's a quote from the book, "They dare to stand in the broken places with the posture of Jesus." So, I find that there are people that like to look at and scream at the broken places, right? And well, they really shouldn't do that. And if I were there, I would do it differently and all those types of things. They rarely step into that broken place though. And when they step in, they certainly don't have the posture of Jesus. So, tease that out a little bit more for us. Well, I think that I would tell two stories about two different women to show you the various postures of Jesus. Um the the first would be the woman caught in adultery um who is brought to Jesus. I mean, straight from the act. You know, disheveled, naked, knows she's about to die, thrown on the ground in front of Jesus. Mob mob mentality. Law of Moses says, like, she should die. What do you say? And then Jesus draws on the ground. I mean, you can just all sort you can guess just try to be as creative as you can about what he was drawing. I have no idea. But then he says, "Let the one who's without guilt throw the first stone." And then from oldest to youngest, they drop the stones. And then he walks over to the woman, kind of lifts up her face. She's waiting to die. And says, "Has no one condemned you? Neither do I. Go and sin no more." So, you see Jesus' posture towards her sin. There's the expectation of condemnation. There's him highlighting that it's not come. And then him commanding her to stop sinning like that. That that would be story one. Story two, and it's one of my favorites, is John chapter four, the woman at the well. So, if we're just watching Jesus with this woman at the well, and he's like sharing the gospel, right? This is He's letting her know, "I'm the Messiah." Like his This is the first Like his disciples don't even know it as clear as this woman at the well is about to know it. And she's a Samaritan. And so, um this woman at the well, he he finally's talking about living water bubbling up inside of her and out of her. And she says, "Sir, give me this water so that I might not come back to this well and have to pull water." And [snorts] Jesus said, "Okay, go Go get your husband. Woman, go grab your husband." She said, "Well, I don't I don't have a husband." He's like, "Yo, I know I You you've had five and the guy you're sleeping with now ain't your man." Like we would probably Most evangelicals I know probably Like they'd pull Jesus aside and be like, "Hey man, don't bring up the husband stuff, man. Don't bring up the husband thing. Like that's just going to It's going to [inaudible] her off. It's going to, you know, make her have a little trauma cycle. Just don't bring up the Just don't bring up the husbands." But Jesus wants her heart. So, he he goes at that wound in order to heal it. So, Jesus is not content with her going, "Yeah, I believe in you." without touching that wound and healing it. But to do it, he had to speak the truth to her. "Woman, go get your husband." Is peacemaking in action. "I'm going to touch this wound in the hopes that it can heal. I'm not I'm not touching it to provoke you. I'm not touching it to try to [inaudible] you off, but I can see it and I want you to heal. So, I'm going to roll the dice on this and I'm going to trust that our relationship can hold. And there's a lot of things that go into peacemaking and I guess the last thing we'll talk about in terms of this chapter is another short quote. Another major obstacle to peacemaking is the slow corrosion of bitterness. And so, if you talk about people that are in cycles of sin, they become bitter because they're like, "Why don't I have victory over this sin yet?" That goes back to our discussion about sanctification. Yep. For other people, they are bitter at what they felt like they were owed, right? They [clears throat] were owed a long healthy life. Uh they were owed, you know, nothing but success and then you ask them why, it's like, "Well, I never killed nobody. Yeah. Uh you know, I worked hard my whole life. Yeah. You know, I have but you know, I'm always getting taken advantage of and you know, how could there be a God out there that loves me and why would Jesus die for me if he can't even like provide for me in my time of need. I'm sick right now and I'm bitter. Or you know, somebody wronged me when I was a kid or you know, whenever I was an adult and and now I'm just extrapolating that out to the the remainder of my life is just my life it could be defined by a single word and that's bitterness. Yeah. And if you're bitter, it's like impossible to be a peacemaker. It's impossible to make peace with people. So, let's talk about that some more. Well, I mean, you like to be a peacemaker, there there has to be some experience of the peace of the Father in you. You you have to have experienced the peace of God in order to move that out and bitterness is saying, you know, I'm a better God than God is. That God has cheated me or that people have robbed me or and and so without an experience of the gospel in our inner man or inner woman, um it's going to be you're not going to be able to do this. And and the idea that you can put God in your debt is an ancient one because Paul's having to write about it in Romans 11 when he's like, "And who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" Like you're you're not God doesn't owe you anything. Like all that you have and all that you are were given to you by him for his glory. Like that that's Romans 1. And and so for us to presume upon the Lord that he owes us actually does create an immense amount of bitterness that will burn you up and destroy you. It's the author of Hebrews. Not just going to destroy you. It's going to destroy those around you. And so there's no you will be a warmonger if bitterness is in you. You will find evidence that everyone is exactly what you thought they were. And and you have no shot at peacemaking. Well, and also that that bitterness can lead to your thoughts on if you ever experience real persecution. Like actual persecution for your faith. That can lead to bitterness as well. Again, it kind of goes back to wait a minute. Wait a minute. I was convinced that this was all going to be easy. The only people that really believe that are people that don't read their Bible. So it's like let's just talk about the apostles only. How many of them had an easy into their life? Most of them one died, you know, in exile, but they tried to boil him alive first. So you know, it's just kind of one of those kind of one of those issues. He endured it. Yeah. Yeah, but he endured and then in chapter 10 you talk about you know, persecuted for righteousness sake. And you know, Jesus warns us to expect it's coming, but then we're shocked when it happens. And you know, the last quote I'll I'll read about this from your chapter cuz you have a great section on this is Jesus. He prepares us not only for the pain of resistance, but for the reward of resilience. The reward of resilience. And so for us on on podcast, I talk constantly about cultivating spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, forging that on a daily basis. Not strength, cuz that'll wane over time, and that has, you know, ups and downs, but resilience is something that can stay with you until your last breath is taken here on this planet. So, let's just talk about the persecuted for righteousness' sake and how we can prepare ourselves to cultivate that resilience. Well, I that I think the thing that's hard about like resilience in particular is it's never on sale. It's never on sale. It cost what it cost. And it cost endurance, enduring, clinging to the Lord through what feels unfair, um what like I write in the chapter of, you know, like I I know people have lost their jobs that that have been cut out of inheritances that have all because of their faith in Christ. And these are like real people, like friends. I I know them, they're here. And and have had to endure like the loss of millions, the like access to, you know, the C-suite, all because they love the Lord. And and just refuse to participate in deeds of darkness. And I think everybody thinks they'll stand strong when that day comes. And and I pray that you will. I think the thing I've always just thought about resilience is it's just never on sale. There there's no way it's full price. And you you've got to pay the small bill as it works up to the larger one. And so, this is why again, I I I love the idea of choosing to do hard things. It's a way to start paying off, you know, that bill of resilience. That that endurance is purchased. So, great, let me do the things that I don't want to do, but will begin to build in me a kind of resilience that maybe when my day comes, and I'm not, you know, my situation's different. I just get chirped at by people on the internet, then, you know, maligned that way. Whatever, that's that's this. Um, and I've had brain cancer. So, what are you going to say something mean about me on the internet? I think I'll be all right. I think I'll be all right. Um but like I think the the benefit of trying to do hard things, especially those things you don't want to do. Not hard things that you enjoy. Like hard things that you hate are are they're a good exercise to start paying that bill down before it hits you in the face at work or in your neighborhood or with a friend or with a So, that's how I'd tell you to get ready for it. There there's no You're not going to buy it on sale. But there are ways to start paying it off before it hits you full on in the face. Well, and the bill comes due every morning. I tell people that when when it comes to spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, forging that, bill comes due every morning. I can't work out today for tomorrow. I can only work out for today. I can't read the Bible and seek God through prayer today for tomorrow. I got to do that again tomorrow. So, if you actually want to do that, if you mean it, you have to actually walk that out and live that out. And speaking of which, that that gets us all the way to the end of the book. So, chapter 11, you mentioned this earlier in the podcast, very early on, deep work over time in community. You have a very very long section that I'm going to let people read when once they get there, but you talk about what specifically that means. Cuz you can spend a lot of time focusing on one Yeah. you know, segment of that. Okay, deep work. What does that mean? You know, okay, I'm going to do that. But if you do it over a short time, that ain't really going to work. And if you do it like all at once in a sprint, that ain't going to work. And if you do it all by yourself, that ain't going to work, right? And so, talk about deep work over time in community. Yeah, I think this is this chapter One, it's the longest chapter, easily. Um, and I I really early on I had it at the front of the book, so it would kind of be the framework that carried you through the Beatitudes, but then I switched it after initial edits. Um formation um is it requires all three of these. Biblically experientially >> [snorts] >> like for me to become more and more like Jesus, I've got to get what I would call below the line. That means away from mind and strength and more into heart and soul. Like what's really driving me? What's going on here? Why is this my compulsion? Why is this a pain point? Why does this set me off? Why do I feel like I have to like to get real curious about my own soul and my own story. Not so I can blame somebody for who I am, but so I can understand who I am. Like there's a reason that I see money the way I see it. There's a reason I mean like I want to under like we have to understand these things. Deep work is necessary for us to become like Jesus. Over time is experientially what it is. There are no light switches. Not not there's no there's no spiritual bypass. There's no I think there are moments where you move from getting that from one degree of glory to the next like Paul writes. Maybe you'll have a two degree moment of breakthrough. I believe in those things. I've had those things. By and large Jesus is going to accomplish his good work in you over slow monotonous decades. And you're going to wake up one day and be farther along than you ever dreamed. And then you can't do this alone. This is forged in the fire of community. And so where you're developing relationships with others who want this like you want it, you'll experience it more quickly and in greater joy. So I'm doing deep work. I know it's going to take my whole life. So let me do this as best I can deep work with others for a long time. So maybe I'm not taking that. Maybe I'm not taking that promotion and moving to San Antonio because I've got good friends here who are doing deep work with and we're hungry for the things of God together. And I may find that in San Antonio and I may not. So, I'm not going to take that promotion because I'm I'm serious about this being formed in me. So, I'm going to commit to that. That This is why I don't think you should just leave your church every three or four years just because of this or that. But, stick it out. Do the hard work. Stay committed with people. And part of the with people part is you talk about a king's table. Joby talks about Mac carriers. I talk about a foxhole. And man, the number of guys I talk to that They're lean forward guys. They're listening to y'all's sermons. They're listening to my podcast. They're doing all those types of things. They're reading the right books. They're working out hard. They're eating meat, doing jujitsu. They're hunting. They're doing all that kind of stuff. They're doing it alone. Yep. [clears throat] Or maybe they got one guy and another fellow, right? And those are That's their circle. Yeah. Now, those aren't going to be the guys that are there at 3:00 a.m. when their world's falling apart. Yeah. But, they haven't spent really any time cultivating that foxhole or king's table. But, they're just fine lamenting that they don't have it. And so, we'll we'll kind of as we wind to a close, let's talk about even the concept of a king's table, how that applies, kind of where you get that ideology, and why it's just It's not just important. It's absolutely standard fair and what you have to have as a modern man. Yeah, I I'm I'm I'm pulling king's table from King David's life. You have the Psalms of ascent and you have the Psalms of descent. You you have this arc in his life where everything he touches turns to gold. It doesn't mean it's not >> [clears throat] >> hard, but it turns to gold. He just wins. All he does is win. He even when he it looks like he's losing, he's winning. And then and then something happens. And he should have gone out to war and he doesn't go to war. He sees his boy's wife bathing on the He asked about her. His even servant tries to snap him out of it. He's like, "Hey, that's Uriah's wife, bro. What do you mean, who is that?" "Bring her to me." And the rest is history. Um King David was at his best when when he had a Nathan, an older man who could speak the truth to him. He had a Joab, who's just a brother in arms. What hill we taking? What are we building? Who are we fighting next? What are we going to give our lives to? Where What field of battle are we going to right now? And then he had a Jonathan, just a lover of his soul. Just a dude that didn't need anything from him, didn't want anything from him, could see his gifts, could cheer him on, could speak life into him, and call him on his crap. And when David had those three, and then I would add uh a Mephibosheth, just a guy that can't bring anything to the table, but a guy that you can serve and love on and try to encourage. And and when that table was in place, David was as healthy and victorious and vibrant as ever. And when he lost Jonathan, in particular, the lover of his soul, the whole thing crumbled. And and so the idea is I want those men in my life, and I'm going to find them and ask them to play that role in my life. And so it's not just me going, "Who might be able to do this for me?" But it's me going like Ray Ortlund and going, "Hey, I want you to be my Nathan." Uh going to to Trevor Joy, "Hey, I I want you to be my Joab." Going to Josh Patterson going, "I've got a sense that like you're you're like my Jonathan." Um I So I To me, it's asking men to fill these roles, and then creating the proximity and the the the the space for us to grow in those relationships. And man, if you do that, and you deputize those guys, and the first time they come to you, and they risk some of those relational chips, they put them in the center of the table, and if you respond like a baby, like, "Oh, man, you don't know me. You don't know what it's been like to blah blah blah blah all that." Yeah. Just expect them to never do it again. Absolutely. >> them, you better mean it. So, Matt, we we've gone into all the details that I could think of that were interesting about becoming like Jesus. Again, guys, you can check it out in the show notes, and you can pick up your own copy. But, that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? Yeah, I mean, the last thing I'd say, if I could just condense the book down, it'd be this: If you don't quit, you win. If you don't quit, you win. You just keep pressing into Christ with disappointment, with victory, with hope, with longing. Just keep getting up, keep going in there, and the victory of Christ will be handed to you. I'll say amen to that, and Matt, we'll do this again, but next time we'll do it in person okay? >> I like that. All right, boss, you take care of yourself. Thanks, brother. Uh-huh. Bye. Thank you, everyone, for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undated.life. Follow us on Instagram, and like us on Facebook, and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. Void awaken. >> [music] [music] >> Hey.