[Music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys. We got a special guest on the podcast today. His name is Kyle Idleman. He is a pastor and author. He is currently serving as a senior pastor at Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky. He is the author of several books, including Not a Fan, which has sold over a million copies, and Grace is Greater. And we've got his new book here today. It is called Every Thought Captive: Calm the Mental Chaos That Keeps You Stuck, Drains Your Hope, and Holds You Back. And so, in this discussion today, we talked about, okay, how'd you become a professional Christian? How'd you become a pastor? But then we start talking about mega churches because I think he has, you know, 30,000 plus people that show up any given weekend to Southeast Christian Church there in Kentucky. And kind of what is it with big churches that also take disciplehip seriously? Because as a lot of big churches have proven, it's really, really kind of fluffy messaging. Nothing's going to be challenging. They're not in there to ruffle feathers. They need you coming back. They need you to keep giving money. They need all those things to keep happening. And so, what is it with churches like his that, you know, hey, we got a big parking lot. We got big buildings. We're multi-sight. We do all these things and we try to do them well, but we also care about discipling people. And then also we got into talking about his book from 2016, not a fan. And this is the really the whole point of the book is there's a big difference between being a fan of Jesus and a follower of Jesus. And so how does that basically extrapolate out into a larger culture? And then when we got into every thought captive, we talked about just basically the very distracted time that we're in right now and how uh there are neural pathways that most of us create where we've made uh you know we have some strongholds in our life or people can call them agreements and it leads to negative actions, further negative thoughts. We we talk about some questions that we can ask our ask ourselves that will kind of help us be like okay figure out how exactly is is this the the way that I think? How did I get to these types of thoughts? Why is it causing me to do these types of things? As Paul said, you know, why do I keep doing the things that I don't want to do and I'm not doing the things that I know I want to do? And then we talked about different patterns like patterns of distraction, patterns of offense, patterns of pleasure. And then towards the end, we talked a little bit about men's ministry. So, what is it about the current state of manhood or lack thereof in modern Christianom and how can we change that for the future? So, really enjoyed my time with Kyle. So, without further ado, let's get into it. Kyle Idleman, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast. >> Kyle Thompson, it's good to be with you, man. Thanks for having me on. >> I'm I'm excited to have you on. The thing I'm not excited about though is two Kyle's in the same room cuz a lot of times because apparently people think that Kyle's had, you know, Monster Energy drink uh in their baby bottles as kids cuz that's what all the memes say. So, are we going to be able to get through this with without just becoming mortal enemies? >> I mean, I feel more comfortable if I can call you man or bro so it's not I don't feel like I'm saying my Do you have a Do you have a a man dude bro? What's your uh What would you prefer? >> Call me man bro. Uh, I think that'll work out well. Just kind of combine them all. Uh, yeah, man. Bro, works out. But, uh, we do need to kind of go ahead and to get to work a little bit here because I heard a rumor on the internet that you're a professional Christian. You don't just do this on the weekends, but you're a pro at it. But most people don't grow up thinking to themselves, you know what? I'm going to be one of those professionals one of these days. So, let's just start there. How'd you become a professional Christian as it were? >> Well, by professional, you mean paid to be a Christian? that is not me. Uh I I would say you know my my faith uh came from a really strong example of uh my father and um his journey of faith began later in life which um you know taught me a lot about God's grace and God's redemption. uh he was a seminary president so it could be a little bit academic but he just had a heart for not just Jesus but for people and uh and so I picked up on that at an early age but it took me a little while like you know I I wrote a book called Not a Fan that kind of tracks through my journey of understanding that being a follower of Jesus isn't just knowing about Jesus it's really knowing him and walking with him and and um not just having the right information, but but really being, as I like to talk about out of John 15, being the branch, like you're connected to Jesus as the vine. Um, and and uh that took me a little while. I would say, you know, I was already in ministry when I've really began to understand what it looks like to walk with Jesus. Well, so now I mean we're fast forwarding a little bit here because we got a couple of books to cover, but you know, you are the lead pastor of of Southeast, and that's uh I mean, by any stretch and by any metric, it is a quote unquote megaurch, but as I've talked about on the show and as a lot of people have kind of elucidated, just the moniker of mega church is it's seen as a negative. It's kind of like, you know, originally when I don't know if you've heard this, right, breaking news. We're breaking a lot of news on this podcast today. But it's kind of like, you know, uh we use the term endearingly, uh calling another brother a Christian, but in Antioch, if you were called a Christian, that was kind of a, you know, a derissive thing to say to somebody, but you know, we have a mutual mutual friend in Joby Martin, and he and I have had this conversation before and guys that have followed my show for a long time. He called me one day, this, we barely knew each other. First time we had talked on the phone, and the first words out of his mouth was, "Hey, dude, what's your problem with big churches?" I was like, "What are you talking about?" He's like, "My son and I have been listening to your show because he was trying to find a, you know, Joe Rogan equivalent, but you know, without a 45minute diet tribe about magic mushrooms." And so he was listening to my show and every time I talked about churches that had big parking lots, it came off to him as I was saying that they're all bad because of their size, which was not what I meant, but he kind of helped me realize I was being very imprecise in my language. But what I was talking about, Kai, which I'd like you to talk about a little bit as well, is there are churches that are enormous. They're kind of mick churches. They keep opening up the the next facility and the next facility, next facility with almost no regard for disciplehip. And so they do want you to raise your hand after you're whipped up by the concert and by the TED talk with a few Bible verses spread over the top so they can keep their tax exempt status. They then you get to raise your hand and they get to count that in the annual report. But then there's really no disciplehip. There's no helping people along their sanctification journey. But specifically Joby as well, we talked about you behind your back. He said that's not what you do. That's not what he does. you just happen to be a large church with a large audience that's multi-sight, but you do take capital D disciplehip seriously. So, take that wherever you'd like to go with it. >> Well, you know, I I would be willing to bet that your audience is not listening to you because you go easy on them. Like, I don't I don't think that you built an audience by uh saying what people want to hear. So I I think that the misconception can be that a mega church uh grows just because it's you know easy belieism. I think >> I think often times churches um that that grow are growing because they are challenging people in a way that their souls are hungry for. And um you know one of the things that I talk about is how Jesus you know well in in the gospels the word crowd is a word that means like an unidentified group of people just a large group of people but but Jesus uh h if you read through the gospels with this filter you'll see that he just again and again has eyes for the one in the crowd. Uh I think more than 40 times in the gospels you read the phrase Jesus saw and it's amazing how many of those times are connected to Jesus seeing one person in the crowd and sometimes when he sees the one person he heals them sometimes he calls them out and challenges them sometimes he like Zakius sometimes he u encourages them speaks strength into them but he was surrounded by crowds but always had eyes for the one and so you know for us as a church we want to have that same uh spirit Sure. One of the prayers we pray often is, you know, Jesus, give me your eyes for the one. Help me to see people the way you see people. And if we if we do that, well, then disciplehip is going to be taking place. Um, and it won't be about the crowds. If you walk out of this room here and went into my office, I have a a wall that I just call my one at a time wall, which is just a wall full of one at a time stories with uh you know, probably hundred or two stories of uh people who have been changed by Jesus, impacted by the gospel. U and I go to that wall often because it keeps me focused rightly. you know, it keeps it from being about like how many people are attending or how many people were baptized. And it I want to be able to like the gospels tell stories, names, faces, um encounters that people have had with Jesus. And and that's I mean that's what I'm passionate about. That's what I love. And um and I I think that you know it's easy to get caught up in the other things. So I'm not saying it's it's uh it's natural. Maybe the natural thing is to get a little too caught up in the the metrics. Uh but man, we sure work hard at at having the eyes of Jesus for for one person at a time. I was a church planter before I came to >> to this church and I'm really thankful for that. Like I I just having that foundation kind of that base. >> Um >> I mean that that really affected me and my approach to to church. Yeah, it certainly changes your approach and I know it is very similar uh to the parliament you use, but Job's church says it's their one more, right? So, in their main sanctuary, there's 3,01 seats, I think, is what it is because they're always concerned about the one more. They've got a one more wall where it's that one person that if that person came to Christ, man, oh gosh, it would just mean the absolute world to to you. And so, I've I've got my one more that I've written on their wall. But I think something that you're speaking to, Kyle, is when I see passers like Joby or like another buddy, Matt Chandler, or any of those types of guys, they lean on their flocks. And and I don't mean like lean on me when you're not strong. I'll be your friend. I'll help you carry on. I mean they're like leaning on them. Like when I talk about my foxhole guys, like I need to see how bendy you are. I need to see how much weight I can put on you and how much I can dig my elbow into your ribs before you start crying. Right. because when on the day when the the bullets are flying as it were, whether it's literal or figurative, I need to know that you're not going to break. And so he when when you see some of these churches that are enormous and you see the content of the sermons, it's like, well, no wonder. Like there's no challenge here. There's no feathers that are being ruffled. But my goodness, when you when you listen to some of these fire breathing dragons of pastors and you hear what they say to their flocks and then their numbers keep going up, it's because there's truth in the words that they're speaking because they're speaking what is coming directly from the good book. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, people deeply want whether they would say it or not or know or not, they deeply want the gospel to interfere with their lives. In other words, when when they come to church, it might it would be like going I don't know if this will break down as I talk through it, but if it would be like going to a gym or meeting with a trainer and if the person doesn't push you or challenge you if they're not putting weight on there that is a stretch for you. I mean, you might be okay going for a little while and there might be there might be a huge membership at that gym because lots of people sign up and it's 10 bucks a month and it feels good to be a part of a gym. But but if you're not seeing, you know, growth, if you're not um experiencing um that kind of that push, you're you're not gonna you're not going to stick with it. And and and I think I really do believe that people want to be want to be challenged. I I do believe that God made us uh to, you know, do that for one another, not, you know, the Bible talks about spurring one another on. And um and I know I want to be a part of a community like that. And um and and so I'm not surprised that that that people are hungry for that. Uh but you know, we lose people too. I I I was talking to a guy, you know, not long ago who, you know, left the church and his reason for leaving the church was that it was inter I mean his language in my mind that was interfering with his life. And I'm like, well, all right. I mean, that's that's kind of the that's kind of the thing. Like, that's part of it. Um, and and and he wasn't at a place where he recognized that yet. But I think, you know, the gospel is meant to interfere with our lives. >> Yeah. And I think it's uh if you leave church feeling like you haven't been brushed up against a little bit abrasively, I I would maybe question the motives of the pastor because again, there's a Well, I you you brought up your book, Not a Fan, from 2016. So, over a million copies sold. It's been a very very successful book. But yeah, I mean kind of the nexus of the book is there is a big difference between being a fan of Jesus and a follower of Jesus because fandom is cheap. You and I were talking off air, the last NBA game that we both went to was an Oklahoma City Thunder game. But fandom is cheap because if your team sucks, you can just turn it off. Or if they make a trade that you're not a fan of, you can just stop being a fan of that team. So if you're like a fan of this Jesus guy and in in your head he's this kind of like soft featured Danish looking guy that always just told people that, hey, no matter what, I'm going to love you. I don't require anything of you. You certainly don't need to sacrifice on my behalf. Uh don't allow me to inconvenience you. If we go that route, that's fandom. But when you follow when you That's like when you say Christian, you're going to get a bunch of different answers for what that even means. But if you're a disciple, a follower of Christ, there's like some defined things that you have to do these things and not these other things. And it's not because the law makes you clean. It's because if you are saved by the grace of Christ, the law and good works are just things that follow thereafter. Right. So, let's just kind of get into the um the ripple effect cuz we're coming up on 10 years since Not a Fan. And so, you've been able to see kind of the ripple you've created, at least within Christian culture, with this concept that I think people have tried to encapsulate before, but maybe not as clean as you did in that book. But let's just talk about the impact that book's had for you and your ministry. Well, you know, the conversation I wanted that book to spur is kind of a defining the relationship conversation for people to have with with Jesus where if you've um kind of had a dating approach, a friends with benefits approach, you know, where you you want to follow Jesus close enough to get the benefits, but not so close that it requires anything from you. um that it would it would challenge you to have that conversation to define the relationship not on your terms but on his terms and and not to presume that you know what his terms are but let him define that um out of the gospels. And so one of the you know one of the things that has been fun for me to watch is how uh is how people have confronted what they thought it meant uh to follow Jesus. You know, there's this idea that, you know, what you win them with is what you win them to. >> Correct. >> And and there are plenty of people who have been won um over to a gospel that is kind of uh you know, it's pretty light. And so having that con confronted, being able to help people walk through a conversation and then recognize what Luke chapter 9 talks about that, you know, in dying to yourself, you you find life. like it it's not it we speak of it like it's a sacrifice because the Bible says to take up your cross but what you find is life that is truly life and the most miserable people I know and I I know a fair amount of these people most miserable people I know are the people who who try to you know have one foot in one foot out are the people who who try to to follow Jesus in this fan approach way where they're you know they're they're they go to church some and they know the right answers some some of the questions and but but you know there they don't they don't really go allin with it. I had a um I had a guy young man that started coming to church here um during a difficult season of his life dealing with addiction. His marriage had fallen apart and struggling as a single dad with some things. And um and when he came to Jesus, he he went all in, like really committed himself to it. And one day I get this phone call from his mom who I'd never met before. His mom went to another, you know, church in town. And she wanted to meet with me. And I'm like, "Yeah, you know, we'd be glad to meet with you." And and so we met to have coffee in the the uh in the church. And and we sat down and I thought what she was going to do is say, "Hey, you know, thank you. Thank you to for challenging my son for uh the way he's grown for, you know, what he's discovered in his faith. She but she was not there to say thank you. Like she was she was upset. And in her words, it's because her son had quote taken all of this too far. And and what she said to me is, "Could you please tell him that it doesn't have to be all or nothing?" And she was upset because, you know, he was he was struggling financially, but he was insisting on being generous and he was um praying before meals and making other family members feel awkward and he was, you know, posting things and putting sermon clips up and and and she felt like, hey, he he somehow he's got this idea that is all or nothing. And so she's she's wanting me to tell her son, hey, following Jesus, uh, you've taken this all too far. And you know, I'm I'm sitting there trying to be polite and gracious and kind, but you know, like this is the issue. Like she she genuinely thinks that he's following Jesus wrong by going allin. And and and you know what Jesus defines for us is that we we die to ourselves. I love what Paul says where he says, "I die daily." and and and daily is what Jesus uses in Luke 9:2 as well when he says you I take up the to take up the cross daily. It is that daily surrender uh where you know that's both the challenge but it's also the beauty of of following Jesus. Like that's where you really start to experience the the fullness of life that he describes. >> Well, and Kyle, it's kind of like if you were to ask someone, hey, are you a Christian? And they were to respond kind of. Like that's weird. It's like can you be kind of pregnant? Yeah. It's like like in terms of the binary, you either are or you're not. And I heard someone say before um that it's not how many years you've been a Christian, it's how many hours. I I give people the same spiel at jiu-jitsu. It's like it's how many years you've been training, it's how many hours you've trained. Cuz someone could be training significantly longer than you in years, but they put in a whole lot more direct hours into the practice. >> I've never heard that. It's really good. >> Well, just think about it. So, if you've said, "Oh yeah, I've been a Christian since I was 13 and I'm 53 now." It's like, "Oh, man. You've been a Christian for a really long time." But let's say your Bible's sitting on the shelf with an inch of dust on it. Versus the fired up guy who, you know, Christ got a hold of him, snatched him up, he was dead, now he's alive, and now he's just been pouring hour after hour every single day into the word, into trying to understand it. Again, he's a baby deer and so he's going to do it poorly, but trying to follow after the words and the dictates uh therein and like it's just not the same thing. But in in our world, there's an equivalence factor because everything kind of goes back to a resume. How many years have you been in this job? How many years experience do you have? But as any good hiring manager knows, sometimes years of experience does not uh lead to acumen. It doesn't lead to wisdom or discernment. It doesn't need lead to leadership necessarily. And those are things that that you're looking for. And so those are some of the things that I was thinking about as I was thinking through the old book, but that's old news, Kyle. All right, we're going to put that on the shelf. We're going to leave it there because we got a new book out, guys. If you're listening to this, it is out right now. It's this book right here. It is in the show notes. every thought captive, calm the mental chaos that keeps you stuck, drains your hope, and holds you back. And so, obviously from the title, um, in terms of scripture, 2 Corinthians 10:5 is probably the most important scripture to me. Uh, that scripture helped me overcome like a pornography and masturbation. I don't, it wasn't an addiction. We use addiction language way too much, but it was something that I really enjoyed doing and it was like a habit that I was not really that interested in breaking. And then when I got interested in breaking it, it was difficult to do. And so whenever I would be sexually tempted, I would say 2 Corinthians 10:5 over and over and over until the temptation ran away. And so because I mean John 3:16 is very important. Romans 8:1 is very important. Like I love Psalm 34:10, the young lion suffer want hunger, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing. Like those are those are the rallying cries, but for whatever reason, 2 Corinthians 10:5. So it didn't even matter if I didn't read the rest of the pitch from your publicist. I was going to bring you on anyway just because of the title I was in. But I want to read a quick quote from the introduction, then I want to get you to talk about the book here. These stories represented a universal human struggle. All of us at some point find ourselves at war with our own minds. We know what we want to do and who we want to be, but our thoughts seem to have a will of their own. Every reader of this book and the author as well knows the reality of the struggle. While this internal battle is real, it is not new. The Apostle Paul wrote about it nearly 2,000 years ago. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:5. But in our modern world of constant distraction and information overload, this ancient wisdom has never been more relevant or more challenging to apply. So, Kyle, why this book? Why now? Why you? >> Well, you know, I uh first let me say that I I appreciate your your personal testimony and and speaking that. And it's interesting to me that you said, you know, addiction language feels a little bit strong. Not quite sure, you know, don't want to overuse that. One of the things I love about second Corinthians is the is the word stronghold, you know, because a stronghold gives us some spiritual language for this battle that a lot of us fight or all of us fight at some point or another. >> And and a stronghold is based on something that we believe or have believed for usually quite a long time without even recognizing it as a as a belief. In other words, you know, if if if you're if you're trying to address a um a lust challenge or porn problem, if you're trying to do that, typically we're going to go down a path of behavior modification. I'm I'm just going to I'm just going to stop doing this. And and that doesn't work very well because it's a stronghold. It's this thought pattern that has been established at some point, you know, a neural pathway that has been put in place. And and as I studied this concept of strongholds, I found that there are, you know, three or four ways that strongholds get formed. And I I have some men that I meet with that gave me some examples of this, if I could use them. Like they've believed some things to be true, but um they're not always sure where they found them. So for example, you know, I had um one friend who, you know, had this stronghold in his life that said, you know, nobody nobody understands how I feel. Nobody understands, you know, there was a loneliness stronghold where he he just was going through hard things and he didn't feel like he could complain about it. Didn't want to be a whiner. And so he just had this, you know, nobody knows how I feel. And so what that looked like for him, that stronghold meant that he kept people away. you know, he just kept everybody at a distance. He had these walls up, you know, and in in talking with him, here's here's what had happened. When he was in the fifth grade, uh his dad had died and what had been taught to him as a fifth grader was, "Hey, don't talk to anybody about this. Just move on. Focus on the future. You know, we're so sorry this happened." But there was this like, "Hey, don't talk about that. Just just go on with your life and be happy." And and what God established there is a stronghold because whenever there's like this strong emotional um association with a thought, that thought gets a hold of us in ways that we don't realize. Now, he was in his 50s keeping people at a distance because of a stronghold that was established in the fifth grade that created this thought in his mind. I can't I I can't let anybody too close because nobody really wants to hear my struggles or what's hard for me. and it's not masculine to say that I'm sad. And so, you know, that that was a a stronghold that had to be torn down. And until he recognized where that was coming from, it wasn't going to change. Or, you know, another friend, like, as you referenced, you know, grew up having this neural pathway of uh, you know, his dad left a stack of porn in a place that was easy for him to access. You know, he he had a neural pathway of objectifying women. He thought, "I'm going to get married. that's going to be taken care of. That's not what happened. Three years later, you know, went went through a divorce and and and he knew there were behaviors that needed to be addressed, but he didn't realize, you know, how early on in his life some of those thought patterns got rooted. Some of that stronghold got established. And and so when we're identifying strongholds, we look at like the emotional association, but we also look at, okay, where did this come from? Like so the Bible says take every thought captive. Taking something captive means that you're going to you're going to hold it down and you're going to interrogate it. So where okay, where did this thought come from? How's this thought serving me? Who do I know that thinks this way? And how's how, you know, how did I pick up on it? Being able to to not just say stop thinking it, but let me actually take that thought captive um and interrogate it helps us find freedom. And and here's my personal one. All right. So for me a stronghold in my life um was this idea that I can't ask for help. Um I I grew up in a home where we you know my parents were you know helpers and and what was kind of ingrained in me as at a young age is we are people who rescue but we're not people who need to be rescued. And uh and that was deeply ingrained in me. So when when I get married in the first couple years of marriage, we're struggling with some things. My my my wife, my young wife is like, "Hey, can we please ask somebody for help? We have these people around us. Let's" and I'm like, "We can't do that. Let's we got to figure this out. We'll work our way through it." But there's this deep fear that I had of uh asking for help. And then when we were parents and we had a kid who uh we were struggling with and everything that worked on the other kids wasn't working on this kid, you know, my wife's like, "Can we, you know, we're surrounded by people that would help us. Can we ask for help?" And I'm like, "We can't, you know, we can't ask for help." And and for me, that stronghold wasn't just causing problems for me like it was affecting my wife. It was affecting my kids. It was affecting the church that I was leading. And by the way, it's it's doesn't it it doesn't line up with the gospel. Like at the heart of the gospel is willingness to ask for help. So that's a problem. But I had I had to really confront where did this thought come from? Uh because it felt to me like it was almost spiritual, you know, to not need help, which is, you know, Jesus said to his disciples on the night he was arrested, "My my soul is overwhelmed to the point of of sorrow, grief, you know, please pray for me." And Jesus could be vulnerable in that way. He could ask for prayer. He could ask for help. He could recognize his own weakness. But man, I struggled with it. And I I had to I had to break down that stronghold. I had to take that thought captive and and to break down that stronghold in order for my behavior to change. >> Hey guys, real quick. Do you remember during the pandemic when you basically couldn't get anything shipped to your house? All this manufacturing that was supposed to be taking place in America had been shipped overseas and you just didn't notice it. And I remember a bunch of companies saying, "We're going to do everything we can to make sure that we bring manufacturing back to America." 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That does include steel toe boots and mocktoe boots. And they also make workout clothes and everyday pants and shirts and almost indestructible hoodies. And they're launching new apparel all the time. Guys, if you haven't already tried Origin stuff, you need to check them out and support a company that supports Americans. Try Origin out today by going to www. originusa.com. That's originusa.com. Use the promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. Again, that's originus.com. Promo code undaunted to get 10% off your order. When you spent a lot of time in section three elucidating what are strongholds, how do they manifest, all those types of things. And even as you were talking there, Kyle, I was thinking like it doesn't matter what your language is. You call strongholds. You know, John Eldridge might call it agreements. Hey, we've made some agreements with Satan about who we are, who we're not, whether or not we're worth it, whether or not we're lovely. That's typically uh on more of a feminine bend. And also Victor Marks, who was on the podcast again here recently, he was talking about, hey, where do thoughts come from? They either come from uh they come from God, they come from Satan, or they come from ourselves, right? And so that's the filter through which like when we hear the whisper in our ear, you're not good enough, you're ugly, you're not lovable, is that does that sound vaguely at all like our heavenly father? Cuz that's either manifesting from inside of us, but we got to give the devil his due like he he's not omnicient, but he does have our playbook and he knows every single play that he can run to basically knock us off. And that that kind of goes into and in the book you talk about neuroplasticity. And guys, we're not going to be able to get into all the details of the book obviously. So it's there in the show notes. you should go pick up your copy now. But neuroplasticity, that's our ability, again, if you're a Huberman guy, everybody's already already knows this, but you can rewire the neural pathways of your brain. And so, going back to the thing that I've been very open about, so 15, 16 years ago now, uh, with pornography and masturbation, it was I would be alone, I would be bored, I would look at pornography, and I would masturbate. And so, when I talk to guys now, Kyle, that are in the similar struggle, they always use the struggle language, right? I'm like, "Well, brother, if you struggled more, you would you would have some wins by now." Because what does it take to win? It takes struggling, right? Struggling in the gym gets your body in better shape. Struggling against something like this gets you in shape. But I'm like, we need to go upstream just a little bit further. You think you have a porn problem. Well, let me tell you two things. Number one, you don't have a porn addiction. And number two, it's not a porn problem. It's a masturbation problem, right? And then you keep going back from there where you say, "Okay, let's deal with this, you know, behavior." But then why are you self soothing in that way? Like you have a self soothing problem. Were you not, you know, held as much when you were a kid? It can go all the way back to not being held as much whenever you were an infant, right? But a lot of people just don't really understand. And you really bring it up with a couple of questions that we all need to ask ourselves. Who am I becoming? And is this who I want to be? I think a lot of people pick an area financially uh within your marriage, within your body. If you ask yourself those two questions and you're honest, who am I becoming? and is this who I want to be? And then you have the third follow-up question, which is, how have I become who I am? That'll really help us start unraveling where we are now and where we could have been if we had been on the straight and narrow path this entire time, but as opposed to lamenting the time we've wasted, how about we we get busy uh, you know, working towards the future. So, why are those questions, Kyle, so helpful when it comes to people that have the capability of being neuroplastic, which allows them to kind of rewire those neural pathways so that they can have different actions in their everyday life? >> Yeah, I I think those questions help you, you know, think about your thoughts, which is where so much of this battle is is won or lost. like well, you know, my encouragement to be with with somebody who, you know, is struggling is that you're, you know, you're a couple weeks away from experiencing some pretty dramatic victory because of the way that God has has wired you because of the way he has made your brain. I one of the things I loved about, you know, researching this book is just seeing the way science and scripture agree. And the more we learn about neuroscience, the more these scriptures make sense about what it looks like to be uh out of Romans chapter 12 to be um made new in our you know in our thinking and how transformation takes place. And so if if you can take the focus off I'm just going to stop or I'm just going to change my behavior and you can can look at okay where are my thoughts coming from and why am I thinking them? So one of the things I talk about a little bit is is it's called the mere exposure effect. Uh but but basically you know there's this law in neuroscience that would say that whatever you expose your mind to is what is going to be reflected in your in your life. And uh and the way dopamine works, you know, if you you know you you can you can think, okay, this is pretty innocent over here, but then man, that neural pathway opens up. that gets triggered and and suddenly you've gone down a path that you know you were sure you were never going to go down again. And so recognizing like the thought process there being able to say okay just like in my diet I'm going to stay away from you know I'm watching what I eat. I'm not going to go through the crispy cream line. You know being able to to set some boundaries in place early as far as what you're exposing yourself to. your your with your eyes, your ears, like that's where the b battle gets won, but that's so much more in our thoughts than in our behavior. And so what we do is, and you know, this isn't just a man thing, but this is definitely a man thing, is that we overestimate the strength we have um behaviorally. We think, I got this. I can do it. I'm not I'm good. And we underestimate the our vulnerability mentally. We we we underestimate how uh how vulner vulnerable we are in what we think, well, this doesn't affect me or I can look at this and it doesn't have any impact and and and we're much more vulnerable than we thought in our thoughts than we realize. And that's where, you know, the Bible would say uh the battle is won or lost. >> Well, Kyle, I'm at a disadvantage here because I didn't hear a word after you said crispy cream because Yeah. So, I have not taken that thought captive yet because I still feel the pool. Uh, what I had to do is I had to just move to the other part of town, right? Because I lived really close to a crispy cream about 8 years ago. And so, I just had to make it an increase in gas price, you know, to get to get across town for about 1,000 grams of sugar. But, no, I I think that that that's helpful as we kind of look at, okay, how do we get toward practicality, which is, you know, where you get into uh in section three of the book. But at the end of chapter 1, there was a little bit of confusion that I had. And so I want to read a couple of quotes from chapter 1 and have you at least help clear it up for me. So this is a quote from the end of chapter 1. Okay. >> Okay. >> Being transformed by the renewing of our minds is not something that happens automatically or accidentally. It takes intentionality and effort. This is not a stroll in the park. It's a tugof-war. Our spiritual formation is counter transformation. We battle against our flesh, our old sinful habits, the world we live in, our enemy who rules over it, and the mold that always seems to be squeezing us. If we don't choose transformation, we won't just sit in neutral. We will be left to the persistent molding of the world, dragged in the opposite direction of who we wanted to become. But if you back up, Kyle, to the middle of chapter 1, there's this quote. We like to think that we can be in charge of our own direction and decisions in any given moment. But in reality, the thoughts we have been thinking have established neural pathways that will decide which direction we go. This is why we can all think of decisions we've made that don't align with what we want, which is what you just talked about. Our established thought patterns are guiding our behavior in ways we underestimate. The way we change our decision-making patterns is to take the time to train the elephant by changing our thinking and redirecting our neural pathways. And so it kind of seems like on on one side you're talking out of one side of your mouth like hey you got to take charge of this. This is this is on you like we we've got to change this and then on the other side it's like hey man it's just your neural pathways. It just kind of is what it is kind of a little bit more of a lazair approach. I know that's not your intention but I was a little confused when I read that last part of chapter one. I was like well wait a minute is this one on me or is it not on me? So help clear it up for guys like me that maybe missed uh the the forest for the trees. Well, I do think the order in which you read that matters. Like I think getting to where we land at the end of chapter one begins by recognizing the thoughts that I'm thinking a lot of those thoughts are happening on on automatic. Like uh the percentage of our repeated thoughts, I forget what it is. It's like 95% of the thoughts you think during the day are on repeat. Like you're not you are not intentionally thinking them. It's just happening. And so if you don't take your thoughts captive, then you are going to be in a prison of your your neural pathways like and that. So until we decide that we're going to do our part in uh taking our thoughts captive, we're going to live in this in this loop of um of, you know, of these mental our our mental prison. And but the verse that kind of connects these two things together is Romans chapter 12. Okay. Verse two says um do not be conformed to the patterns of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. The word when the the verb that Paul uses here when he says do not be conformed it it's really interesting. It is it's in the present tense. It's like don't do what you're already doing. like this is happen. You are you didn't you know people of Rome you didn't decide to be conformed to the patterns of this world but you are being conformed to the patterns of this world like it is happening to you so stop doing what you're already doing even if you don't know you're doing it like those those patterns are conforming you but then it says be transformed by the renewing of your mind now be transformed is passive it's something that's done to you which means that we have a role to play. We take our thoughts captive. We we renew our minds. But the transformation transformation that takes place, the breakthrough that takes place, the strongholds that get torn down that happens with spiritual weapons. That's it. That's God's work. Our we receive that. That's passive. But we have to align ourselves so that we can we can receive that kind of breakthrough. And so it's recognizing that yeah, unchecked, you're being conformed and you're kind of stuck in this neural pathway prison. But as you take your thoughts captive, as you um are transformed through the renewing of your mind, God does God breaks those breaks those down. He sets us free. He does what we can't do on our own. >> So Kyle, is that akin to I mean the age-old debate, and we've had the debate on the show a lot between the sovereignty of God and the free will of man, right? So you could, you know, loosely describe each camp as like more Calvinistic or more Armenian to where it's like, wait, did God just force us to be saved? He snatched us up. Dead men can't even reach out their hand. Or it's like, no, you were drowning, but you at least had to reach up and grab. It's It's almost like the creation of Adam, like God's finger extended as far out as it can go, but Adam's finger is, you know, kind of about halfway there, and if he were to extend his finger out, then it'll connect. Is it Is it kind of attached to that in a way? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I do think it is in a way and and that we we for sure have a part to play when it says, you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. It you've got both of those things built in there that there that is a sentence that has several imperatives. Do not be conformed. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. But the transformation that actually happens is what God does for us. So you know to me there is you this agreement that we have when we align our thoughts with um we we stop being conformed to the patterns of this world. We align our thoughts with what God says then his role in that or his promise in that is uh to bring about this transformation. And what's what's beautiful is to see like scientifically or biologically this is the way he actually made our brains. So that that promise that we read about in scripture is actually reflected in science that when we take our thoughts captive, he this isn't just metaphorically. This trans transformation is much more literal. Our brains change as we as we align our thoughts differently. >> Yeah, I think that that's true. And then it also comes into the description of what patterns are we following. So something you were talking about with people that have strongholds or if you call them agreements or whatever is that leads to a pattern of thinking and a pattern of action, right? So you you basically build out that argument here in the book like we're based on these patterns. So if you start with a foundation of I'm not worthy, then it makes sense it would follow that you're going to be a stver, right? And so like if you're like, hey, I'm never going to be accepted. Well, I'm going to fight for my acceptance or I'm going to play the role of victim, right? That that's kind of where we go. And as Max Lukeo, who was just on the show here recently, was talking about, it's like, look, victimhood status is is something that you've put on yourself. You are not a victim because if you are in Christ, you are a new creation. So, enough with this victimhood uh narrative. But in section two of the book, you look at five different patterns that make it really difficult for us to control how we think. So, you talk about insecurity, distraction offense pleasure and despair. And so as opposed to going through all five of them or picking the ones that I think are most important if there let's let's go into just one or two of these that for you maybe in your ministry work or what you see in uh with your organization or what maybe even you just see in culture. Are there a couple of patterns that are kind of dominant or hegemonic in a way? You know, I I would say, you know, I I make distraction the first one because unless you >> can identify the pattern of distraction, the rest of these you never actually get to. >> And you're too distracted. >> Yeah. Because you're too distracted. And I do, you know, it's a struggle for me. I don't I I I like to stay busy. I don't like to be still. I don't like silence or quiet. I but but a really simple equation you know is that the more external input that we have the less internal reflection we do and man I you know my life can be so dominated by external input where I just am constantly consuming and just you know walking around looking at different um you know YouTube clips or yeah I ju I can just get caught up in it and uh And and so this pattern of distraction is one that I think culturally you know Paul talks about the patterns of this world and the pattern of distraction is a pattern of like our world today so significantly and uh just because there's you know God's never had more competition for our attention and to start to understand your attract your distractions as these idols that are taking your focus away from God that are you know capturing your thoughts and and keeping you from uh being intentional with the way that you're thinking. Like it it all really begins with recognizing how distracted that we are. So, one of the things I talked about in the book is, you know, is is keeping some kind of a thought uh journal, you know, where you you pay attention to the the distractions that you're giving yourself to, whether that, you know, in the morning, what what what's the first thing you think about? What gets your attention when you're driving? What what are you thinking about when you drive? Um you you know if you're if you go back and forth to work every day and you don't really ever stop and and think about what you're thinking about while you're drive, you're just making the drive. Like taking the time to recognize, okay, here's what's getting my attention. Here's what's distracting me. Uh is so worthwhile. And and so one of the ways I I challenge, you know, people on this is to, you know, to do some kind of a a fast from your screens, you know, whether that's some time in the morning or some time in the evening or or yeah, some some moments of silence, maybe that's when you're driving where it's just quiet and uh and to really pay attention to, you know, the the distraction. So, you know, the pattern of distraction is a big one for almost, you know, all of us culturally. And then I, you know, another one for me that's been personal. Um, was like a pattern of offense. I, you know, I would say for most of my life, I would consider myself not easily offended, but I had a season where I just became more irritable. My wife eventually called me out on this. She's like, "Hey, one of my favorite things about you is that you're not easily offended." and lately it just seems like, you know, you're you're defensive and you're sensitive and and I'm like, well, what's that supposed to mean? You know, and so she she tried to help me recognize it, but I was a little defensive to see it. And and what I realized was that I had like this neural pathway that had opened up in my life u because I often deal with criticism where I just started to take it personally. I started to um you know feel like I know I'm going to disappoint this person so what's the point type of attitude and spirit and and so recognizing like okay if I'm acting if I'm defensive or I'm sensitive you know there's a pattern of offense that I I want to confront which usually requires a new perspective it usually requires recognizing you know where do those thoughts come from um but but those are the two probably of the five that have been the most um you know where I've had to do the most battle >> as you were describing uh the distraction part of it all I could think of was Joe Biden screaming at everybody think about what you think about so I had to get that out had to get out of my system or else it was going to stay there and be a further distraction for me but uh I did also want to ask you about about pleasure because I've I've heard Jordan Peterson say this before the the question is not hey why do you do drugs it's hey why don't you do drugs all the time because why do people do drugs? Because they're awesome. Because they feel awesome when you're on them, right? You know, it absolutely destroys your life, but that's what it leads to. But I feel like Kyle, most of the problems in this world can be summarized in somebody was seeking out pleasure. And it's typically sinful pleasure. So why is there so much fatherlessness? Because waking up in the middle of the night to give a bottle to your screaming bab, that's not going to give you pleasure. You want to you want to, you know, sleep in. And so you can sire children but not father them, right? And if you have no guilt or no conscience or you don't have the Holy Spirit or something like that, then hey, you're just like you're walking on sunshine at all at all times. Why are people so fat? Why are they so uh you know, out of shape? It's because in their brain they're just like, "Oh gosh, you know, putting on my running shoes and hitting the pavement in the middle of August in Oklahoma seems absolutely miserable, which it is. I'd rather just sit on the couch and watch television or play video games, right? Pleasure, right? going back to pornography, going back to some sort of substance, any any type of vice that you may have, it's because we're seeking pleasure in something that we know inherently is only going to be temporary, but we know we can just hit the repeat button right there after. And so I feel like the the pleasure centers of our brain, especially since Tik Tok and Instagram and all these different things, they're they're hacking the pleasure centers of our brain, Doritos, the these people, they're they're making these things to where your brain can't stop eating them because it's overriding the the different, you know, mechanisms in your brain to stop you from dilitterious activities. So, let's talk a little bit more about the the pleasure patterns. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because what you're talking about there is really it's not just pleasure, it's the immediate pleasure that we we struggle with. Because I could make the argument that it's more pleasurable, you know, to not uh you know, not constantly eat fast food or not. Yeah. But but in the moment, it you know, it's the immediate pleasure. >> There's no delayed gratification whatsoever. >> And to me, this is where thoughtfulness is is so important. So, go back to some of these questions. you know, if I'm in the Taco Bell drive-thru, you know, if I can just stop and ask myself, you know, hey, is this who I want to be? Is this is this is this leading me down the path? You know, if I can be thoughtful about what this pleasure, you know, where where where it's led me or where it's leading me, if I can be thoughtful in the moment, uh, you know, where Paul talks about taking every thought captive, if you think about um, you know, it's combat language. So, it's taking a thought and wrestling it to the ground. Uh, and if if you'll wrestle that to the ground in the moment and you think about where does this lead and where's this going to how is this going to affect me in the long run? What's this going to do to my relationship with my wife? You know, how is this going to help me be the father that uh I know God's called me to be? If you can have some questions that you ask yourself, if you can be intentional with your thoughts, it it helps you break that pattern. But but here's the, you know, for a lot of us, we try to, and you talked about this right at the beginning, you when you said that you would use second Corinthians, you would quote that to yourself as a way to take your thoughts captive. What you were practicing there is is cognitive repraisal. It's this idea that you're not just telling yourself, stop thinking this way, but you're replacing that with a with a truth. you're you're you're identifying something and then and and using replacement language and and for you know this the struggle or the stronghold of pleasure being able to to have some things that we we speak some truths that we speak specifically out of God's word in those moments it it it's there's so much more power in the repraisal in the in the replacement than in just saying I'm I'm I'm not going to do it But having some intentional thoughts that you think in that moment that will break that up uh and and create a different pathway is is really important. So I don't you know if if let me think of a couple examples of this like if you know that you're going to be a little bit more vulnerable to you know uh some pleasure temptation at night. Let's maybe it's food, maybe it's on the screen, you know. So, you put maybe a scripture on the refrigerator or you put, you know, a scripture on your on your screen um on on your uh page when when you turn on your phone or whatever that that puts the right thought in your mind. If you can be intentional with the replacement or the repraisal, it it makes all the difference in taking that further. Right? So, I I would just challenge people, you know, to to recognize not just, hey, this I need I don't want to do this or I'm going to stop doing this, but to be intentional with what you're replacing that with. >> When I tell people also be intentional with, hey, it just doesn't have to stop with one thing. So, I've told guys before, hey, memorize 2 Corinthians 10:5 and then apply that. And then they're like, well, that didn't work. I'm like, okay, well then memorize it in the ESV, the NIV, memorize it in stuff that's technically not even scripture. So, something like the message. Memorize it in Spanish. me memorize it in Russian. Just memorize it and then just keep going through your rolodex. So, if you're super duper tempted and you know you're you're speaking scripture in Russian, hey, we know we're up against it. But also have some brothers with you in the fight. Another thing that used to help me, I had two guys that I would text, hey guys, uh my wife's going to be gone again. This was I don't know 15 years ago. Hey guys, my wife's going to be out with some friends tonight. I'm gonna be all alone. This is when temptation would happen. So, text me tomorrow and and check in or something like that. And they and they would. Yeah. Like why wouldn't you do that? Like that's not a that's not an an indication of weakness. It's an indication of strength because you have forethought in the matter. But as we wrap up our discussion of every thought captive because again guys uh we're just barely scraping the surface. And uh we're running out of time here today. I've described this to people before. So you get to psychoanalyze a guy that you just started talking to about an hour ago. So get ready, right? Get your pen ready and your glasses. Um so I fuel on negativity and pessimism. So, as an example, my buddy who's a licensed family therapist and counselor, great dude, Donnie, he's on here before, been on the forging table. He was trying to make a point to me and he's like, "Kyle, every time you go to a jiu-jitsu tournament, you don't assume you're going to lose every match, do you?" And I go, "No, that's exactly what I assume. And beyond that, I assume that I'm going to get choked unconscious and my lifeless body is going to be dropped in front of my weeping mother. That's what I assume is going to happen. So, I train like a psychopath to ensure that that doesn't happen. Now, I'm a weirdo. Anyone that's listening to any of the 800 or so episodes of this podcast can attest to that. I fuel differently. I think differently. I go too fast. I like all the things, right? But for me, and there are some people like me, for whatever reason, it's not just carrot and stick. It's stick covered in battery acid being like, you know, and it's Usain Bolt running after you with it. like that's how I fuel and that's what pushes me. What would be your advice or your read on people that are like, "Hey, for whatever reason," and again, I'm here to equip men to push back darkness. That's my goal. That's what I feel like God has for me here. So, I feel like he's given me an interest and and and a ability to kind of get into the places of darkness and then get out really fast so I can help other people recognize it so that they can push it back as well. But what would you say to people that are maybe kind of super tip of the spear people that are just kind of like marinating in a lot of this, you know, really heavy negativity, >> you know? Um, well, first I would say what you just did is a big part of it where you recognize some things that are true of you where you you can see it. It's that thing I talk about in the book of looking in the mirror and and um and recognize it. And having people, I mean, as you you've just referenced, having people that will call some of that out in you is is huge. My my challenge for, you know, people who recognize that they see it, they've had somebody call it out, is to is to just take a step towards uh taking those thoughts captive. And here here's how I'd tell you to do it is just the first 15 minutes of the morning. Um be intentional with your thinking. You know, the the Bible has an emphasis on on God in the morning and our brains are more receptive, more malleable uh in the morning. The thoughts you think in the morning are a lot more powerful than the thoughts you think in the afternoon. And so, you know, if you're negative uh at the first thoughts you have in the morning are, you know, uh hey, here's everything I've got today. You feel overwhelmed. Here's what's not going to go right. or you get on your phone and you read the news and here's everything that's going wrong in the world, then what you're doing is you're setting up yourself to be reactive and you're going to react to things more negatively, more critically, more cynically, right? But if you will in the mornings develop a thought pattern that is rooted in gratitude and thanksgiving, if you say, "Okay, I I'm going to spend my first 15 minutes of the day thinking about my day and committing that to God." say, "Okay, God, I you know, I'm I've got this uh conversation I'm going to have with Kyle. I, you know, I I want that conversation to be helpful. Would you God, would you give me wisdom and counsel or God, I' i've got this I'm going to when I come home, I'm going to be uh have high demands with my kids. Would would you help me, God, to to come in with joy and peace?" And if you just take the first 15 minutes of your day to take some of those thoughts captive, it'll set the trajectory so that you're not being reactive that you're but instead you're responding intentionally. And and so I would just say, you know, for some guys maybe who are listening to this and you're just not sure where to start with any of it, just experiment with your mornings. Just do this purely as an experiment. Maybe you don't think it'll have much impact or make any kind of a difference, but I would just say for for one week, set your alarm 10 15 minutes earlier than you normally would. Um, and take your thoughts captive to begin the day. Just be intentional with with your thoughts at the beginning of the day and and then at the end of the week, just see what kind of difference it's made. I I think you'll experience some of that Romans 12:2 promise that as you as you are as you take those thoughts captive, you'll experience some of that transformation. Well, Kyle, we're running out of time and I know you got a heart out. So, again, the guys, the name of the book is Every Thought Captive. It's in the show notes. Check it out. But again, as I told you, you know, this this entire enterprise on Dawn Life is really focused at men, specifically men that are a little rougher around the edges, not your typical church guy. A lot of calluses, a lot of cauliflower in my audience. But, you know, we've talked a lot about and I've talked a lot about how the modern-day church, so let let's encapsulate all denominations, everybody, let's make as wide a net as possible, have done men a tremendous disservice. Uh, it is basically encourage men that in order to be a good Christian, you have to be a puss. Uh, you you can't be tough. We don't need your testosterone here. Most churches might as well have a blinking neon sign in the lobby that says, "Guys, we don't have you in mind. We're gonna sing songs that don't have parts. They're going to be in a key that you can't hit. Sung by a guy who's wearing something that you would never wear. And we're communicating to these guys, hey, you need need to go somewhere else. The pastor seems like a really good fella, but not a guy that you would follow into battle. And it's just a lot of guys again have taken the role of I'm going to go serve somewhere else. If the church doesn't need me, and if there's no volunteer opportunities that it speaks to the soul of a man, then I'm going to go do something else. I'm going to go to the shooting range. I'm going to get ready for my fourth fantasy football draft or whatever the difference is. So in the rest of our time here, what's your read on where masculinity, manhood is currently in the church and, you know, a good trajectory for what we can do to shift that in the future? >> Well, you uh you articulated it well. I can tell you've thought this through. I'm grateful for that. I I would say that I'm encouraged by the fact that there is a recognition that the approach you described has not been great. Um and and and there is also a growing awareness partly because we've got the research to back it up that shows the priority of of men, the need for men uh in passing faith to the next generation. And you know that it doesn't work for men to take a passive backseat role that God had that God has called you to be who he's made you to be uh as um as leaders, as pursuers. Um and so I I'm encouraged by that. I don't, you know, I think maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, it the the burden would have been on making the case that you just said, like, I've got to convince, you know, the church that this is a problem. I I don't think, you know, I I think increasingly the church at large recognizes the disservice we do to men when we minimize who God has called them to be for their wives, for their kids, or for their fellow brothers. Uh so, so I'm encouraged by that. also encouraged by uh men who can better uh bring together you know vulnerability with strength that because there's something also not helpful at all about a a man that can't come in and be like hey I'm struggling with this in my marriage or in my men's in my men's group like >> I I am so encouraged by the fact that they'll they'll just come in and say hey this this has been a challenge for me this week or we'll text each other and say this is this is a struggle. We'll speak courage into each other's lives. I, you know, I'm 49. When I was in my 20s, I could have sure used some of that. And I don't, maybe it was in the church, but there wasn't much of it. And I wouldn't have known how to express it. Now, I feel like it's pretty safe. I've got I've got some dudes where I can say, "Hey, this is I, you know, this is a struggle for me right now or this is a yeah, I didn't handle this well or I lost my temper with my wife and I need to, you know, I that's that to me is is really healthy that there's more of a a a camaraderie. There's more of a recognition that I need some brothers to do life with. Um, and and so I, you know, I'm in I'm encouraged by those things. Um, I think we've got a long way to go, but but it seems to me that it it that the priority of what you said is much more largely recognized now than than it used to be. >> Well, I think people are understanding that, okay, let's shove men into a room, assign them to tables, uh, and demand that they pour their hearts out. That doesn't work cuz that's how women connect. Women connect eyeball to eyeball, and then shoulder-to-shoulder. Men are the exact opposite. But then you had guys swing way far to the other end where their masculinity was based in how many pull-ups they could do, how much dirt was on their truck, how many animals heads they have on the wall. And like all those things are fun. They're they're awesome, but none of those things make you a man. They don't uh confer manhood, any of those types of things, even if it's part of a right of passage. But how again, it's not just line of Judah. It's not just lamb of God. It is both. It is not just grace. It is not just truth. It is both. And so we we see that as the the narrative of scripture as well. But Kyle, we are out of time and so uh we've weaved into a lot of different subject matters on this call. So I thought it went particularly well. But that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> Man, I love what you're doing. Uh grateful for it. Thanks for letting me be on. >> Thanks again. There you go guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Kyle. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Indanted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. And so we've got a link to a few things. cuz we got a link to Kyle Idleman's website and then a couple of Amazon links where you can get your copies of Every Thought Captive and Not a Fan. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive fivestar review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unddton.life. That's info@undon.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Face Down Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [Music]