KEN ISAACS | Running to the Fire in Jesus' Name (Ep. 841)

[music] [music] This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. [music] I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys. We got a special guest on the podcast today. His name is Ken Issacs. So he is the vice president of programs and government relations at Samaritan's Purse and he's under the leadership of Billy Graham's son, Franklin. So Isaac has spent more than 35 years working in relief and development of different communities. His work has taken him to nearly 150 countries in response to global emergencies resulting from wars, complex crises, famines, and natural disasters. I'm reading this straight off of his bio here. Isac has served on the ground in response to foreign disasters and aid projects. He has directed major relief operations around the world since 1991, including Samaritan's Purses, work in Rwanda during the 1994 genocide. Isaac's also coordinated relief efforts in Liberia during the Ebola crisis following massive earthquakes in China and Haiti, and following the devastating cyclones that hit Myanmar and the Philippines. In addition, he designed and implemented emergency relief programs in Ethiopia, Iratria, Somalia, Bosnia, Cambodia, Honduras, El Salvador, Kosovo Turkey Afghanistan Nepal Haiti, Japan, and the Philippines. He's also the author of the new book. This was kind of the scaffolding of our discussion today. It's right here. Running to the fire, helping in Jesus's name. And I'll just tell you this right from the beginning. This is one of the most impactful interviews that we've done in a while because obviously reading the book kind of seeing some of the stories I had a feeling that we would get some crazy stories today. But he told a bunch of stories that were not in this book cuz yeah we got into okay how'd you get you know over to Africa for the first time? How'd you meet Franklin Graham? How did you decide you were going to do this? And it was kind of interesting how, you know, Jesus led him and then Jesus led his wife. And it wasn't always like super copathetic there for a while. But we talked about, you know, how Samaritan's person, how he responds to different things that are happening around the globe that come mainly because of human darkness. Now, obviously, there's the darkness of sin that comes from natural disasters and things like that, but also the evil of the human heart. but he's lived in communist countries and I asked him about communism and how does he feel about communism and how you know the younger generations are warming to communism even though they've never actually experienced it up close talked about his work in Afghanistan and Bosnia but then we spent a lot of time talking about Rwanda because here's the thing for most people for me included I mean that the genocide happened in you know 93 94 and I was just too young to really know what was going on you're not following the news like you watch Hotel Rwanda and that's kind of the closest you get to something like that but he spent quite quite a bit of time talking about what he experienced firsthand and it is absolutely like some of the stories are just absolutely overwhelming, right? And um we move from Rwanda to talking about a time when he was detained and interrogated while he was in Zire. That was right after the Rwanda genocide. And so, you know, we talked about some other topics as well. You know, the crisis right now of Muslims slaughtering Christians all over Africa to include Nigeria and Mozambique and Sudan. And then we talked a little bit about what he's going to be doing next. Uh, like I said, one of the most impactful interviews that we've done in a while. Just a lot of very powerful stories. Uh, it's very overwhelming at times, but I think it's very, very important for everybody to be listening. So, without further ado, let's get into it. Ken Issacs, welcome to the show, but I just got to tell you, normally I'm happy with my setup and how things look here on my end, but you're just showing off now. You got the coolest background maybe in the history of the podcast. Why? Why you got to flex on me on my own show? >> Well, you know what? I went easy on you because we did it in the in the after sunset. So, you only get to see the lights, but if it had been in the daytime, you would be looking at the temple back there. >> That's right. So, tell me where you are. What are you doing? >> I'm in Jerusalem. I'm in Jerusalem overlooking the old city of Jerusalem right here. >> Very good. So, what what are you doing there right now in Jerusalem? Because we're recording this, guys, just to peek behind the curtain. We're recording this in November of 25. And so this is, you know, a few weeks after the, you know, kind of tenuous ceasefire uh between Hamas and the Israeli Defense Forces. So what are you doing there now? >> Well, I worked for Samaritan's Purse and we have been here uh for two years since probably about October the 10th after October the 7th of 2023. And we've been helping people affected by the conflict. The majority of the work that we've done has been inside of Israel. Uh we set out with a strategy to help everybody that in all the kabuts around uh the Gaza pocket and also up in the north uh next to Lebanon and Syria where attacks have been and we're looking for a way to get into Gaza. We've been helping there through partners, but maybe with this peace agreement there's something we could do more in a major way. So I'm here looking at that and talking to a lot of people. >> Okay. Very good. And that's really been kind of the status of your entire career cuz I don't want to talk too much more about the conflict cuz by the time this comes out, who the heck knows what's going to happen. It feels like the news cycle changes every 72 hours as it pertains to Gaza. But you you're on the show today because we're going to be going over your new book that you released. So it's called Running into the Fire, Helping in Jesus's Name. This was released in 2025. And so this is really there's a quote that I feel like provides kind of a good scaffolding to build off from because we got a lot of stories that we're going to cover today. But here's a quote from the book. I hold no degrees and had no special training to equip me to live the life that I have experienced. Yet, when I read my Bible, I realize that puts me in some good company. So, uh, Ken, why this book? Why now? Why you? Um, well, there's so many answers in that question, but I wanted to tell the story of what God has done in my life. And, um, I felt called to the world. My wife thought I was crazy. And that was back when I was younger than you. I was 34 33 >> and u I but I prayed. I didn't know [clears throat] what else to do. So I just prayed and essentially my prayer was God if he'll open a door I'll go through it. Small town North Carolina guy, high school education. That's I had that and I was glad that I did and I was in a family well drilling business. Um it's hard work, manual labor and uh so I just prayed God open the door and I'll go through it. And you know, he did open a door, but it wasn't this door. This wasn't the door that I was thinking of where I would be here with Jerusalem in my back and having traveled to, you know, 150 countries and been in 20 wars and seen four genocides and all of this stuff. It's like I couldn't imagine that. And I didn't want that story. At my age, you know, all of us know we're going to die. We just don't think it's going to happen to us. And uh uh I didn't want that story to pass. And I wanted people to be inspired and I also want them not to be afraid to step out in faith and trust God because he's worthy. When I think the thing you talk about with training, there are so many people that are like, "Oh, well, I'm not equipped to do this thing." But the thing that they're referring to is something that they just have to step into. And you're right. Whenever you read the stories of the Bible, because there's the grand overall story of the Bible, which is the gospel, but then there's the stories of the Bible, which is essentially person after person after person that was not trained for the thing that they ended up doing. Because because like if you I guess if God picked the fastest person on earth to run the fastest race, then everyone's like, "Well, yeah, that's already the fastest person on earth." But if God takes somebody that's not the fastest person on earth already and turns him into that, then to God be the glory. cuz even even all the crowns that we're going to be gathering for the afterlife are going to be laid down at Christ's feet anyway. And so like that's that's ultimately where we're at. But I mean you mentioned kind of this this bluecollar upbringing and I think even in the book you called it like a bluecollar calling. And during your bluecollar calling, you know, looking in the mid80s or so, you actually met uh very fertuitously uh you met Franklin Graham. And so let's talk a little bit about first meeting uh the son of the great Billy Graham. Well, I had seen him in Boone, North Carolina, where I live, and I knew who he was because he looked just like his father, you know, and I remember meeting him at a sandwich shop, not meeting him, but seeing him at Peppers, and I thought, well, that's that's got to be Billy Graham's son. And years later, uh, I was at a a rental store with my brother going to get a U-Haul. And when I came into the store, the guy, his name was Harris, said, "Hey, you know, Ken, I was at uh uh church the other night, and there was some missionary there, and he was talking about well drillers in Africa, and if you wanted to go, I would help you." And I like I'm thinking to myself, "Dude, I just came in here to get a U-Haul." And I said, "Okay, thanks." And I went on back in the back of the store. In a few minutes, this man came in and he had Franklin with him. And he introduced Franklin to me. and he said, "Franklin, I was just um uh encouraging Ken to go to Africa. He's a well jeweler and he could help some of those missionaries or something." And Franklin went, >> "Yes, you should go." He's very chess kind of a a grin on his face. But, you know, little did I know that was in 1984. And but little did I know that we would drill a well at Franklin's house in 1986. And I gave him a card as we were leaving and I said, "If something came up about water in Africa and you needed some advice, let me know." He called me uh a year and a half later, 14, 15 months later, called me. He had kept that card and he had gotten a request from a church in Ethiopia and they wanted, you know, they had a long list of expensive equipment. They wanted to drill wells. So his question to me was when I came and talked to him, is this list of equipment what they need to drill wells? And that started a lot of questions and conversations and um and it also started me examining scriptures particularly when God called Moses and when uh God called Jonah. and the the I studied those and it's like I started fearing if God's calling me and I don't I don't want to draw the wrath of God. And um so anyway, that that's a bit of how I got to it. And it ended up my family and I moved to Ethiopia. We stayed there for three years. There were two wars going on at the same time. A little factoid that I missed in my early assessments and but we learned a lot. Well, the thing that you talked about in the book is that, you know, you mentioned the Cheshire, you know, smile on his face, but Franklin, I guess even your early communication had just a very matter-of-act type of way of communicating with you, and you even mentioned in the book that in a very matterof-act kind of way that he told you that he didn't believe that you and him were brought together by accident. Okay. Now, it's one thing to say that to somebody and you know, that's that could be a really good sales technique, right? Especially in the Christian space because it's like, "God led me to this." It's like, "Ah, did he?" But but he very much so felt like and I think the last 40 years of work that y'all uh 40 years plus I guess of work y'all have done together have kind of proven that. But go going back to that time. Did you think ah this is just you know a neat guy that I'm meeting that I may do a little bit of work for but he's not going to really have a direct impact on the rest of my life or did you kind of feel the same sense that he did that no there was a reason a a monumental kind of cosmic reason why you two were brought together? I didn't feel the profoundness of it till I came back from the one-month assessment that I did in Ethiopia. I started feeling it profoundly. You know, there was a period of time, Kyle, where I was praying. I did do the one month missionary volunteer trip, and that was in March of 85. And when I came back home, that's when I feel like God was calling me to the world. >> And and my wife, >> are you losing your mind? >> And she was serious, you know I mean we got two kids same county you know we haven't you know we're small town guys and um when Franklin called and asked me to come and talk to him it was 16 17 months later I had gotten no answer for what I had been praying and I had always been taught when you pray you get an answer get a yes or you get a no and I thought nothing meant no so So, I stopped praying and my mind moved on. I stepped out of the family business and I took a job uh drilling environmental holes down in South Carolina, which was interesting and sort of challenging to me. And um then one weekend I came and this was straining in my family relationship between my wife and I and you know going away for a week and coming back home on the weekends. And I got a call on the weekend and Franklin asked me to come and talk to him. I did. that went on that conversation for three or four months. And I said, "Frankly, we're not going to get answers to these questions unless somebody who knows what they're doing goes to Ethiopia." And he said, "Would you go?" I said, "Well, uh, I don't know. I'd have to check with my boss." But Kyle, the important thing is that at this point in time, I had prayed so long for something that now when it's in my face, I wasn't making the connection that it was the thing I had been praying for. I didn't make that connection. I went to Ethiopia and in my mind it was very easy. It's logical. Well drilling is a logical thing. You know as guys, you know the you got a leak, you got to fix it. You know your pipe smash, you fix it. Get a bigger hammer, get a bigger shovel, you know, put more horsepower behind it. Like I I understood all of that running heavy equipment. And but I I went I asked the basic questions. I made a list of the equipment that was needed. I called some vendors. I got the prices. I just organized it and I gave it paper to him when I'm when I'm back. He looks at it and for maybe 40 seconds he's looking at it like this and he looked up and he just said matter of factly but it was profound. I do not he said Kenny I do not think it is an accident that you and I have been brought together. And the reason that that carries so much gravity today is because there's certainly in my life, in my career, there have been times of suffering and times of grief and worry and and whatever. And he'll look at me and he'll say, "Do you remember in the office when I told you it was an accident?" And that sort of brings it into focus to me that this is God's design is in this and I got to trust him. Ken, you're hitting on something that's really, really important. It's that, and really ultimately, this is a largely male audience, a lot of men don't have an anchor point, right? They don't have something that they can tether themselves to, whether it's a a verse or a statement or an occurrence or something that happens. But it's good to kind of always have that with you cuz like for me with Undaunted Life, I mean, we're on the tip of the spear with the stuff that we do. And y'all are certainly uh in the same way with Samaritan's Purse. You're constantly getting flaming arrows shot your way. And if they don't hit you, they hit somebody around you. This could be a family member, a loved one, a close confidant or something like that. And that's what I tell people that that help me out or work with anything on non don life. It's like, dude, just expect things to start going poorly, right? And that's like it's because you're in the game now. You're in the fight and so things are going to start going. But if you don't have a tether point of this is why I'm here, like I was put on this planet to equip men to push back darkness. And so if I'm doing something that doesn't lead to that end, then it's not something that I should probably be doing with my time. And the same thing with you. You can always kind of go back and tether yourself to that. And that's not the only anchor point that you have for your life. But obviously for the work that you're doing with Samaritan's Purse, that's very, very important. But real quick, I thought it was kind of funny. You mentioned in the book how you kind of quit your job without telling your wife, and then a little while later, your wife quit her job without telling you. So y'all kind of had did a little uh your own little personal tetat. So, what what happened there? >> Well, uh, when I came back from Ethiopia, Franklin said, "I'd like for you to go and do this program." And it was right after he said, "You know, we've been brought together. It's not by accident." He said, "I'd like for you. Would you pray about going to Ethiopia?" At this point in my life, I had [clears throat] moved on mentally and spiritually from the call of the world. And I went, "Yeah, sure. I'll pray about it." And I left. I'm in South Carolina. Franklin is persistent. He's tenacious. and he'd call me a couple times a week and he'd say, "Are you praying?" I'd say, "Yeah, I'm praying." Well, what's God telling you? I don't know. He's not telling me nothing yet. And I'd go back to work. And but he kept on and this went on probably four or five weeks. I started talking to my wife about it and she's like, "There's no way in hell I'm going to Africa. It ain't never happen." Okay. Well, all right. If that's gee, honey, I don't know. And but he called me one Friday And um I had gotten to the point where I gave him a sincere word, I will pray about it. And I went to the scriptures of Moses and about Jonah. And God started working in my heart once I opened myself up to God's word and and stopped having whatever earthly shield that I was carrying around. And then he called me on a Friday and he said, 'Are you praying about it?' And I said, 'Yeah, I am praying about it.' He said, 'What do you think God's calling you to do? I said, 'Well, I feel like he's calling me to go, but he's not calling my wife, and I don't feel like that he would call me unless he called my wife, so I'm making a mistake. He said, that's not what I ask you. What I ask you is, what do you think God is calling you to do? Can I pray for you? And I said, "Yeah." And in that 15 or 20 second prayer, I felt a peace come inside of me. >> And I heard, "Trust me." And when Franklin said, "Amen," I said, "I'll be there in two weeks." And I walked right outside the door and I gave my notice. My boss after he got through screaming at me, he said, "You better fly home this weekend." And I did. I flew from Aken, South Carolina to Hickory, North Carolina. My wife picked me up at the airport. And I told her that I had u given my notice and I was going to go to work Samaritan's Purse in two weeks. I was going to go to Africa. We were married 46 and a half years before God took her home. She didn't talk to me for three days. She didn't say boo. She didn't say nothing. Nothing. She acted like I was nothing. I like I was non-existent. And um then what happened with her? I came to work on August the 11th, 1988 at Samaritan's Purse. I was the 22nd person in devotions. That's what I counted that day. And she's like, "I'm not going. I'm not going. I'm not going. I'm not going. Am I going to Africa? Franklin said to her, he talked to her. This is sort of a funny story, but he said, "Would you bring Carolyn here and let me talk to her?" And I said, "She doesn't want to talk to you." And [laughter] but I I got her up there. So she sits down and she goes, "I hear you want to talk to me." And he said, "Yeah." And he's never [laughter] lost for words. >> She She said, "All right, what do you want to say?" Well, you know, I need Kenny needs to go to London and he's needs to go down to Nairobi and he can stop back by an atis and it'd be good for you to go see it and and all of this. She just looked at him. He finishes and she says, "Is that all?" And he he said, "Uh, yeah, that's all." She got up and walked out and um she ended up taking that trip and she came back as we took off leaving Adisaba but coming back. She leaned right over my nose, finger on my nose, literally, and she said, "I'm never coming back." And uh people started praying for her. I was praying for her. I didn't know what was going to happen in our relationship. And you know, going over and coming back and you know, it was going to be tough. And she was an accountant. And one day in um in July of 88, uh we met up at my mom's after work. Uh we would have kleslaw. Mom had potato salad or something, you know. Caroline came in and my mother says, 'Hey honey, how are you doing today? Carolyn said, 'I'm fine. Well, what'd you do? Carolyn said, 'I gave my notice today and I was right here with Kleaw. [laughter] Yeah. And and my mother [clears throat] didn't miss a beat. She said, "Oh, really? What are you going to do?" She said, "God's telling me to go to Ethiopia with Kenny." And that's how I found out. So, we we both quit and then told the other one. And then we started coming together. God shaped us. Yeah. >> Uh together uh for an experience that changed our entire world. >> That's such a cool story because you know I talked to a lot of guys that are early in their marriage and some of them are really struggling with their wives. Some of them are personally struggling and their wives are the ones heavily praying for them. And it's just uh my my pastor buddy Joby Martin said this. He's like, I don't know what to tell people that are married that aren't Christians because it's not that you c can't be married and not be Christian, right? Like you can be a non-Christian and be married. Like that's a thing. But he's like, if y'all aren't seeking God individually, like in a triangular mo, you know, here's you, here's her, and you're both seeking God at the same time. That's how you become closer. because he's he's like everything else and this makes total sense and Gary Thomas would echo this and you know a lot of counselors if you're not seeking God individually like everything you're learning is tips and tricks it's communication tips and tricks it's money tips and tricks it's you know how to you know parent your kids tips and tricks but he's like it's not ultimately bringing you closer together in in a holy matrimony or in a covenant before a holy and just God right so I think a story like that is going to be helpful for guys obviously because y'all were married, you know, for decades and decades and decades. Uh, one thing, Ken, before we get into all these individual stories about individual places that you went, you mentioned very briefly in your book about personally living under communism. So, this is something that you experienced kind of early in your work. And we live in a time right now where major cities in the United States are electing open communists to be their mayors. Uh, for instance, and you have a bunch of, you know, young doofuses that are that are not really experienced in the world. They don't know anything about the goologs, uh, from the Soviet Union. They don't know anything about what happened in uh, Pulpots, Cambodia. They don't know anything about what happened in any of these places. But they look at some of the nicer sounding tenets of communism and they go, "Oh, well, if communism is just done correctly, then it's going to be a utopia on this planet." And so they're like romanced by the the beautiful sounding words of communism without dealing with the actual realities of what it looks like on the ground. But most of us, Ken, and most of the people in your audience have never lived in a communist country. They've never lived under the boot of communism, but you have. So, what what's your read of kind of what that was like and then fast forward to today where so many people seem to be interested in it as an actual worldview? >> It amazes me how short the memory of the world is and and I've heard this story so many times. >> Pulp pot just didn't do it correctly. >> You know, Stalin didn't do it correctly. Everywhere that communism has taken root and been utilized, there is a trail of blood and suffering behind it. And when I when I look at communism and I see collective and I see individual and the way I see God made us, we're individuals. We have individual rights. And I don't want to give my authority and the authority over my life to a state. No communist experiment has worked. It may still be existing in a few places. It would that would be like, I don't know, Cuba, like North Korea. I've been in North Korea. That's horrible. That is uh crazy. I went to the Soviet Union and I the last three months of 1991 and the first three months of '92, I was there and watched it transition from being the Soviet Empire to being a broke, crumbled country where people lost faith in the thing that they had built their entire lives around and that was the communist state. I believe that these elections that have recently happened today uh where communist people have been put into office in the United States, the the citizens will come to regret those votes. They they will not like it. I am and and and oh I have nothing good to say about communism. It is brutal. The first people I ever saw killed in front of my eyes was in a communist state. They take there's no value in life. There's no freedom. There was nothing. It's horrible. It's horrible. Well, it's it's horrible and it's detestable. But you're right. There is a there's a historical ignorance because I talk a a lot that there's a even within Christianom, there's a biblical illiteracy that is so unbelievably high that it just beggars imagination. But that's how you can have so many people that are self-described evangelicals will also say, "Oh yeah, there's multiple ways to God, not just Jesus." and all that. It's because they don't read their Bibles. And so that's how you come away with those types of things. But when you don't read a holistic history of a worldview, then you can come away thinking that it's going to be fine. And that's the thing. The people that rise to power in these communist states, they obviously don't want you to learn about Pulp Pots Cambodia or Stalin or Linen's uh Soviet Union, they don't want you to learn about any of the things that happened in Cuba or any things that are still happening in these different states. Uh, it's just easier to kind of put those in the the the far away machine. Like, we're just going to memory hold those things because look at me. I've got a nice smile and I say a bunch of things. And guess what? You're going to get it all for free. As if free is actually a real thing. But I want to get in specifically to talking about your work that you did in Afghanistan. And so, I want to read a quote here from the book. In so many places around the world, I have witnessed wolves horribly ravaging lambs. And I certainly understand what it feels like to walk into a room such as in the home of an Afghan warlord knowing I am being sent in as a lamb. But that is exactly what I have been able to experience the triumph of the lion of Judah who is forever worthy. And so let's talk a little bit about your experience and your time in the country of Afghanistan. I went to Afghanistan the first time in July of 1991. I was there for uh three or four days. five days and uh there was no peacekeeping forces, there was nothing. The warlords were fighting each other and so it's just me and a few guys in a vehicle driving in and um uh it was something that moved me and I felt a call there. In fact, I called Franklin when I got back to Pakistan. I said, "I think we ought to do something in Afghanistan." We were a new organization just getting started. And he said, "Not yet." And then after 9/11, he called me. I was up in New York City working at ground zero and he said, "You remember when you called me 10 years ago and you said you want to go to Afghanistan and I told you now is not the time." I said, "Yeah." He said, "Well, now is the time." So, uh, I went made my way to Afghanistan. I took a team of people that I had assembled, friends that were still breathing and willing to go. We didn't have all the structure that we had now. And, um, I instinctively knew that I needed to get to the upper echelon of whoever controlled all those people with guns. So I go to this house, this house, the man's name was General Muhammad Ata, and he was head of the Northern Alliance. And when I got to his house, he had, I don't know, six or eight tanks in the yard and about 500 guys. And u I've always been a gun guy. And so the guns don't intimidate me, but I had never been around anybody's house that had tanks in the yard. And uh but it says something about a situation if a man's got a tank in his yard. And um so got an appointment, went in um I'm in the foyer, which is a sort of a palatial red carpet on the floor. We're sitting on the floor and there's two American guys in there with uniforms and they had big aluminum suitcases and I said hi to them. They didn't even speak. They wouldn't speak to me at all. And um so the door opened, they called me in and I I go in and I meet with General Muhammad Ata. And uh the way they work the chairs in Afghanistan, it's like big throne around the wall in in the open area in the middle. So he's sitting in his throne and I introduced myself and you know God gave me an Afghan Christian interpreter. Uh he came out of Rick Warren's church and called me and he said, "I heard that you're going to go to Afghanistan. Could I carry your bag?" And I said, "Why don't you get a ticket and come and see me in North Carolina?" And he did. And I took him with me. And uh he had quite a story, but um but it was you you need a trusted interpreter. But I told him, I said, "Listen, um I'm told him my name, name of our organization." And I said, "We're a Christian organization. This is what we can do. We can help build schools. We can drill wells. We can give medicine. We can uh educate the women. We'll work with your communities." And he said, 'Th that's good. We need it. You come. And I said, 'General, I want you to understand we're followers of Christ. And if that's a problem, and I put my hands up like this. I said, please tell me and I'll leave right now because I don't want to make any problems for you. And he looked at him and he said, "It's not a problem. Uh you're you're welcome." And I didn't understand his code of behavior and honor at the time, but at that moment he extended an umbrella of coverage of protection to us through his guarantee. And you know, we left there in 2007. There were a couple of ladies from Texas that were executed on their bicycles. And that was a sign to me that things are going to deteriorate here. But when we left, there were over 500 people in underground churches. And a lot of times people ask us, "What's your evangelism strategy?" Well, my evangelism strategy is to be faithful to get there to help people in Jesus' name and help them out of the ditches of life. And I have always seen that if you stick to those kind of biblical principles, God has a strategy that's way beyond any strategy that I could ever imagine. and in the fact that I'm doing what I do and also in the fact that he led people to himself uh right there in Afghanistan. >> Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you train for very specific things. So maybe you've got a mud race coming up, a mountain hunt, a 5K, or maybe you just want to keep up with your kids, or you just don't want to let the old man in. But for a lot of you guys, whether you're working out at the Globo Gym, or even in your garage gym, you get there and you just don't know exactly what to do. And so you just kind of settle for the same old workout routine, maybe some bench press, bicep curls, a walk on the treadmill, and you know, you're not really getting the most out of your workout plan. And I want you guys to stop wasting time at the gym. No more settling. 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I think that's important as well because sometimes your evangelism strategy just has to be putting your yes on the table and then now asking the Lord, so what do you want? Right? And so some of us time it's like, okay, get out of your own way. Get out of your own, you know, strictctures for comfort or safety and then just say yes, Lord. And then let him direct your steps thereafter. And so obviously you we're going to be bouncing around timelinewise from from different countries, but I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Bosnia. And so again, I was born in 1986. And so the ethnic cleansing that went on there, you know, in the early to mid 1990s, I was just wasn't part of uh my [clears throat] plausibility structure because I wasn't exposed to any of that news, right, when I'm in elementary school. And so a lot of people that are my age don't really know anything about what happened. And that's not really something that's brought up in modern day discussions either. Like some people have never even heard of Bosnia. But there's a very uh interesting quote from your book. It's this. The Bosnian conflict was the first time I became emotionally attached to the people. Not a particular side, but the people as a whole. So, if you would kind of give uh maybe even a 30,000 foot overview of what happened in Bosnia during that time period, but then specifically for you, Ken, what was it about that experience that got you so emotionally involved? Bosnia is one of a number of countries that made up the Yugoslavian Republic and Yugoslavia uh was uh aligned with the east with the Soviet Union although they maintained some relationship with the west and um the country broke up and this was in 1991 and it started uh with in the northern part of the country and then it came down to Croatia and finally into Bosnia. So we started helping there in uh it was Slovakia. Slovenia was the first country and um we started helping in Croatia and then the war quickly spread down into Bosnia and u many of your listeners may not know this but Sievo was the home of the Winter Olympics I think in 1984 1985 I don't remember the exact year. So it had this sort of beautiful charm that you saw on you know American sports or whatever and uh but it was also at that time when the country broke up the fourth largest army in the world. So each one of those little nations were wellarmed and u the the Serbs I could say were the dominant group and they didn't want anyone to leave. they wanted to control. So they were really it was the Serbs making war in Croatia, the Serbs making war in Bosnia. And um I started traveling in and out of Bosnia in humanitarian convoys uh that we've put together and I met a lot of people there. I was um associating with Christians out of Croatia. We were trying to help the people that are victims of the war and there were a lot of nights of uh staying in buildings when shelling was going on. a lot of people getting uh hit by snipers right around you. Um grenades going off. It was a lot of death. It the place was it was a mess. It was a hard war. And um I just for the first time started connecting oneonone uh with the suffering that the people were going through. And I remember um a a neurosurgeon who is still a friend today. His wife, he was a Croatian, his wife was a Serbian. And I can't understand this. She went back to be with her people in Serbia and the all of the ancient hatreds were reignited. And this happened with many families. And he was living with a um a Croatian woman in Slovenia. He's not a young guy, you know, the guy's probably 75 now. And um u but I used to stop when I would come through Sievo. And I'd bring him a bag of orange, a little piece of ham, carton of cigarettes, and you know, a bottle to drink. And um and I would stay with them. And um but I I just sat around enough campfires and spent enough time in enough people's homes, I heard their personal stories. They were all suffering horribly. But I also saw resilience in them that they wouldn't give up. And you know, I see that today. in uh people from Ukraine. I see it in people here in in Israel. And there's always a side that won't give up. But it it made me start feeling guilty when I would leave. And in 1993, I was there for about seven months. And um so I their conflict, their pain became mine. I started owning that. And um It started bothering me in a way that I didn't know how to deal with. And when I first realized it is when I would get in an airplane and the door would close, uh, I would just break down and start crying. And, um, I didn't know what that was. I didn't know what was triggering it. Um, but later I would find out that I was having what they now call PTSD. I sort of ignored all of those things, but those symptoms that and what's the things that happened in Rwanda put me like a a gerbble in a wheel like I needed to get to the next thing really quick because that's how I would deal with the last thing is go to the next thing and um >> um so anyway that that's a little bit about Bosnian. >> Well, if you move on to the next thing and then you don't have to deal you don't have to sit in the quiet. That's why you I talked to a lot of men and I'm probably in this category as well. There's never silence around me, right? I constantly have something going on because it's my job, right? So, no, I got to read this book and I got to listen to this podcast and I got to watch this video and I got to stay up on the news and I got to whatever. And then the moment my head hits the pillow, it's just all the same stuff. My body's just not moving. And so, that's the only piece that I get to really reflect and see what exactly is going on. But you mentioned Rwanda. Obviously, you talked about Rwanda in the book, and really, uh, the only historical context that most people have that are probably listening to this podcast about what happened in Rwanda in the early '90s is the movie Hotel Rwanda, right? And so, obviously, that's a Hollywood movie. It's got some things that have been, you know, they're they're very fantastical. There are things that certainly didn't happen. There's a description of things that did happen, but then there's the reality of what happened on the ground. And so the genocide from 1993 to 1994 in the book. I think you even said, "Hey, I'm going to be giving kind of PG or PG-13 versions of the stories." But as I mentioned off air, this is not a PG-13 audience. This is a man's audience and these are men that are that have seen a lot of darkness and some men that are, you know, open to being exposed to it to really understand what capital Evil is, you know, in this world. And so I guess just like with with Bosnia, if you could give us an overview of what was going on in Rwanda before the genocide happened, what was happening while that was going on and then your work there on the ground. So in on April the 6th in 1994, an airplane was shot down in Kegali and it had the president of Rwanda and of Burundi in it and um that launched a war. Nobody to this day clearly knows who shot that plane down. But what they do know is that the president of Rwanda had organized something called the inter homway, which I think is a Rwanda word for togetherness or something. But it turned out to be like a um a killing club. And the intermway had been trained to kill all of the Tootszies, which were the minority tribe. uh in Rwanda and if there were political moderates uh that were uh in their own tribe, the Hoous, they would kill them also. Well, how could they kill so many people? How would they know? They had divided their society down in a communistlike structure of every 10 houses had a leader. And that leader knew those 10 families and he knew the names of everybody in them. And he would have a meeting with them every week or every month. And later when the killing started after that plane crash in April the 6, it was in 1994, um they would have meetings every day and they identified every tootsie and they would kill them and there were thousands of people being murdered and it was, you know, front page news. It was on the magazines. The demons of hell have been loose. There are no demons in hell. They've all been released in Rwanda. That was a headline of Newsweek or Time. Um, so I wondered, you know, what we could do. Uh, we sent a couple guys over and along with myself and we went down and um to Tanzania. There were about 200,000 people in the field, refugees that had come across the bridge. And I wanted to know what was going on. And I have to tell you, when I walked through that camp where those 200,000 people were, I I felt something that I was very uncomfortable with and I couldn't exactly articulate it. But it no, it was evil. I was feeling evil. And later uh when I would I would come to understand what it was and what it felt like, I went to the bridge where the people came across and there was a big pile of weapons. Maybe Well, they weren't weapons, they were farming tools. They were machetes and hoes and like singleointed little plows. The Tanzanians had made them throw all of their weapons down because that was the tools that they had been using to kill people. I convinced a Tanzanian soldier to let me go out on this bridge. It might be three or 400 feet long. And he told me I could go halfway. And I went and I looked down in Rumu Falls where the waterfalls are. And there were bodies, hundreds of bodies everywhere. And they were coming over the waterfall and they had um like rubber doll kind of it it almost looked surreal where they had swollen and and decayed and a lot of them had been mangled and you know heads were gone and limbs were gone. Smell of it with the mist in the air is it was putrid and it was it was horrible. It was just a horrible, horrible scene. And um uh but I knew just by looking at my watch and counting the bodies coming down the same way that I would look at water coming through a pipe and catch it in a bucket and I could tell you how many gallons a minute. I made calculations of how many people a day were being killed or how many people an hour were being killed. And so I told the Tanzanian guy, I said, "Do you see those men over there in Rwanda on the other side of the bridge?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "I want to go talk to them." and he sort of came to arms and he said, "No, I won't let you do that." And I said, "Listen, my friends are here. My truck's over there. I'm going to walk over there and I don't think you're going to shoot me." And I was actually brazen in the way that I said it. And I just turned my back on him and walked. And he didn't shoot. And um I got over to the other two guys and they they wore red berets and they sort of had silver jewelry on and uh they were like I called them disco boys. That was that they just look like disco kids and uh they didn't speak English. I spoke a little bit of French, but I ended up writing a letter in English and said that Samaritan's Purse Christian organization, we wanted to come in and we wanted to help 90 days, 10,000 people. I gave a letter to the guy and he told me, you know, you return here after two days. And um so I went away. I came back in two days and he told me they're waiting for you in Melindi. We went to Uganda. We drove down to Uganda and we got uh we found a taxi driver in Uganda who said he would take us into Rwanda. When I went into Rwanda, there was no sound. And this is an important fact. I was just talking with a friend right before this podcast about this issue. where evil is released, you don't hear dogs, you don't hear crickets, you don't hear anything. Not like this. And not when it's been released like this. And there were people had been murdered everywhere in Rwanda. I went to this small mud shack in the village where they told me to go to and there was a woman there by the name of Christine and um she was trying to be the humanitarian coordinator and she had nothing there to work with really and there were some people in the shack and there was one guy that stood out to me an American guy and he told her you know he's fidgety and everything we're just sitting by the wall Jim Harelson a friend was with me and um he runs Operation Christmas Child. Some of your people may have heard of Operation Christmas Child, but anyway, it wasn't a thing then. And this American guy, he says, "I've been here two hours. Don't you care about your people? I'm trying to save lives." And that woman, Christine, lowered her voice down to a whisper where you could barely hear her. and she said, "Where were you for the last 20 years?" So they had this there had been a conflict going on for 20 years. The Tootsies went up into Uganda. That's why they spoke English because that's the language in Uganda. The Hoous spoke French. These killings were horrific. She took us out to a place called Rutari. There were maybe 10 or 12,000 people. It was in a a deep ravine coming up on the hilltops and we thought, "Yeah, we could help these people." But we didn't know, Kyle, that in the next two weeks that population would explode to 125,000 people. And God had put us in the right place. And we were able to help those people. But in July 1994, the shelling down in Kegali stopped. We were up on the mountains. I could hear the shelling. We stopped and I decided I'm going into the Capitol. I want to see what's going on. And uh there was still fighting u random fighting. It wasn't heavy. And there was troop movement. Uh but there were u there were bodies everywhere. There were piles of bodies and pieces of bodies. And uh most of the killing had been done through uh with machetes and uh that's what I remember. We found the hospital, the central hospital of Kegali and the Belgium Red Cross guy uh that was there that had stayed through it. He was a little crazy. Um he said this this hospital, you can open this hospital. And we went there and it was full of um dead people. They had been murdered. Their throats had been slit. Their heads were cut off. They were rotten in the morg. They were putrit. And we started cleaning all that out. And um there was a the sewage line backed up. We got a backho out there. And we found out later 6,000 people were buried there. And um um so we cleaned it up, moved the bodies out, started interviewing people, reopened the central hospital at Kegali. And every single person, everybody, there was like a brotherhood of pain. Uh not just in my team, but in the survivors themselves. There there was I can't describe that kind of pain. I I don't know how to relate to it, but I'll tell you a story. I wrote about it in the book that um this woman told she had seven kids and her husband disappeared when the killing started. She assumed that he was dead and um the guy that was the leader of the 10 unit group called a meeting and had her pick out one of her children and dig the grave. and he put the child in the grave and forced the mother at the risk of the other children to bury her own child alive. And he went through it every week until she had buried all seven of her children. Then he took her as his wife and she became pregnant. The killing ended around it 90 days from April 6, May 6, June 6 to July 6. And then it was wipe up military operations. Her husband pops back up and she's pregnant with this guys that raped her. I don't know how they did it, but they reconciled. They had lost all seven of their children. The mom was the one that had been forced to do that and she had nothing left in her life. Nothing. I don't know. That's a story with no end. There's no fix to that story. There's no happy ending to that story. I remember hiring two ladies and they needed a ride. Me and another guy took them to this area in Kegali which was abandoned. It had like half a million people in it. I bet there weren't a thousand people. People were looting everywhere. There were piles of bodies everywhere. We took this lady. She needed to go somewhere to get something and there were piles of bodies there and dogs are eating the bones. They're burning bodies. It was just it was such a killing area. I've never seen anything like it. the house that we finally took over with the permission of the authorities. There were two big German shepherds there. And I worked with this big Hawaiian guy, Dwayne. I love him. He's a big guy, but he had most tender heart. And the one dog was salivating heavily. And I thought it might be rabid, beautiful German shepherd, but mangy looking because it hadn't had any attention in 3 months. And I tied it uh to a tree just to watch it, to observe it. Dwayne, big tender-hearted Dwayne uh puts on two pair of medical gloves and goes out and pets that dog and ran his hand down in a dog's throat. And the dog's gagging and Dwayne's being gentle and he latches on and he works something out. It's a human rib bone that the dog was choked on and the dog gave like a cough [clears throat] and the and the dog was good. Dwayne saved that dog's life cuz I'd have shot that dog. I thought the dog had rabies. And um you know the when we found this house, there was a big pile of brush on the back porch. It was a big pile of brush and there wasn't anybody there. I got permission from a military commander, a woman named Major Rose. They gave me permission to have the house. So we started carrying the brush away. There were the remnants of 21 dead people under there that they had slaughtered. The blood was everywhere. You know, you see things like fat in the concrete and the dissolved bodies and the blood is run off in the grout between the tile and it crawls up the walls and [clears throat] you know, you can't get rid of the smell. Even if you take a big chlorine pill like you would put in a swimming pool, crush it up into powder, put it in five gallons of water and you pour it on the concrete and again and you do it again and you do it again for two weeks and you still can't get the smell out. We did the best that we could. We cleaned it up. We had a mass grave down in the front yard. They were dark days. dark days. But you know, God did things there that I will never know. And I I look at I went back to Rwanda in 2018. We kept an presence there until 1999 or 2000 in that area. We saw a lot of healing happen. one one of the greatest stories of healing. There's a guy that works for us at Samaritan's Purse and his whole family was killed and um his wife when my wife was dying his wife was a nurse and she came and helped. So I got to know Alex well. Anyway, he went back to Rwanda and he didn't want to carry the weight anymore and he went to the killers of his family and he forgave them. And you look at that country now, it's a beautiful country. When you go there, you hear dogs barking, you hear crickets and you hear birds. But when evil is loose on the land, it's not an imaginary thing that all forms of life sense it and they just go silent. Ken, I'm I'm first of all just thank you for for sharing all that because there's a obviously a level of vulnerability that you have to to lean into to even share some of those things. And you know, before we get out of here, you know, I want to talk about Zire. I want to talk about, you know, Africa current day. But I'm just curious for you as a as a believer, you know, most Christians don't really see suffering, right? They might see the suffering of a dying family member or, you know, a sick pet or the suffering [clears throat] of a brokenhearted child after a breakup. You know, that kind of level of suffering, this is almost indescribable. Now, if you're a student of history and if you're a student of, you know, how brutal the world was before it was quote unquote civilized, post enlightenment, if you will, that was that's just kind of old hat. Uh, you know, I read about a recent, you know, it was a Roman battle. I can't remember the name of the battle, but there were like 60,000 Romans that were slaughtered by Hannibal and his army in one day. In one day on one field. Uh, and they were all basically stabbed to death or or slashed to death with, you know, swords and spears and things like that. But in our modern day, those things just don't really compute, Kim. It's almost like people have this thing that has been inserted into their brain to be like, "That can't be real. that can't be possible. Like that's just some, you know, fantastical story. But you were there. You saw it. You smelled it. Um, how do you continue to do the work that you do? Because we're all about trying to equip men, you know, to push back darkness by providing content that helps them be spiritually, mentally, and physically resilient. You can't do the work that you're talking about without some level of resilience, courage, toughness, grit, you know, whatever you want to call it. But I'm just sitting here as you're telling me these stories. It's like how do you make it to the next hour, much less the next city? Um the adjustment in in seeing something like that unleashed evil. It's unleashed evil. It's um and and you know, killings have happened throughout history as you just said. You you talked about a battle where Hannibal killed 60,000 men or something and the Romans. Um but I didn't live that. I I lived there. I was in Rwanda. I know what I saw. I know what I smelled. I know what I heard. I know what I felt. I know what I sensed. And it was the darkness. Um I wish that I could say the Lord is my strength. And and that's true. He he he carried me through that. But there was uh fear, there was anger, there was pain, and there was something else that sticks with you that I can't describe, but it does something inside of you. It first it it levels the total playing field about good guys and bad guys. Like >> when you turn your Apple computer on, you have a default screen that comes on. I don't know what you got your set to, but you know what I'm talking about. >> Yeah. >> If you turn man on without light, man goes to darkness. And I've seen that over and over. The default condition of mankind without God in your heart is evil. It's darkness. And there is no bottom of the pit that man can go to in pursuing that darkness. And I have had the opportunity to see the results of that on several occasions. The way that I've dealt with it is not been the best way to deal with it. I became withdrawn. I became quarrelome. I became with suppressed anger all the time. I became uh if God had not given me a good woman to help me uh to sort of be a natural counselor, I don't think I would have gotten through that time. I could have been a totally different person right now. Um but it wasn't easy. I found out later there's something called critical incident stress management and I'm sort of a logical thinker but sism CISM has this is the way that I my 50,000 foot view of it Kyle tell me the facts of what you saw what happened to you Kyle how do you feel about what you experienced Kyle what are you going to do now and Later I was through some training and an incident that happened in 1996. You mentioned it in Congo or in Zire. And um if if I think about it along those ways, I find it helps me process it. And probably 90% of everybody that sees anything is going to be able to deal with it, but they need to be able to process it. And you've heard the story that guys coming back from World War II, you know, they're together on the ship for six weeks as they get back or whatever and they came back healthy. They decompressed because they got colleagues to decompress to. I went through a sysm training course at ground zero. And the lady, she was from >> Washington, Seattle. Her name was Teresa. She said something that stuck in my mind. Policemen talk to policemen and firemen talk to firemen. And I realized I am never going to tell anybody what I've seen except somebody that can relate to it the way that I relate to it. Even you know talking to you now is difficult. But what I started doing was trying to build resiliency within the department of colleagues that I work with that go out in the world and do this kind of stuff and see this. And there was um so now we have a staff care program. You know, we're very deliberate and intentional. We debrieve people because we're just helping them process it. And and that processing, I think, is what God gives us. It's it's it's the best way to to deal with something. If you're not well mentally, you're not going to be strong spiritually. And for Christians, just to say you need to read the Bible more, okay, well, that's good. Mr. Dentist, Mr. attorney, but you weren't there. You didn't see it. You didn't hear it. You didn't smell it. You didn't talk to those people. You're speaking academically. >> I'm dealing with it realistically. So, understanding those things, I think, are helpful and have been they they've gotten me through it. So, in the end, I can say God's carried me through it, but there is pain in the journey. Well, Ken, there's also a certain level of equipping because when you talk to a parent that has lost a child and they try to describe what that's like, it's like trying to describe color to blind people that have always been blind. It doesn't make any sense. [clears throat] The best I can do as a man who has not lost a child is to do my absolute level best to empathize or sympathize, right? which are not the same thing, but to do my best to come at it from those two angles because I'll never understand unless it happens to me. But that person is equipped in a unique way to do ministry to other people that have gone through that or are in the process of still going through that. I guess you never actually get to the other side of that process. But it's in that pain. It's what Satan meant for evil that God will use for his glory and his good because you are being uniquely exposed as an individual to a level of darkness that is not reserved for you because you have not experienced darkness that has never been experienced before. It's just the only time you've experienced it. And so, Ken, in a in a macro level, you're experiencing these things so that you can do your ministry more effectively. Guys listening to this right now, the hurt, the pain you're suffering. And for some of you, the worst thing that's ever happened is you lost your job or maybe you were on the the bad side of an affair or an adultery, maybe you're on the bad side of a murder or a crime, maybe you were violated uh sexually or emotionally by someone at some point in your life. That is not a defining moment for you in the negative. It's actually a defining moment for you because it can be used as a positive because we get to look forward to a time period, Ken, where every tear that ever was shed will be as if it never existed, right? And uh I I guess that's the the one comforting thing when you're dealing with that level of evil is knowing that we actually win in the end and that basically the memory of that sin and that depravity will be no more. Um, we're kind of going a little bit over over time here, but I I do want to get to a couple of more things. Um, well, let me ask you, do do you want to talk about your detainment and interrogation in Zire in the mid '90s, or do you want people to just read it in the book? Because I got more questions. >> Uh, you know what? I want them to read it in the book, and I'm willing to talk about it if that's what you want to talk about. >> Well, tell you what. Um [clears throat] well I we'll just do a couple more things but if you can just give a little bit of an overview because it's just from the outset looking at you're like wait a minute hold up you were detained and interrogated in Zire and this you know it's it's easy to talk to you now because obviously you made it out but while you're experiencing that you're like I don't know if I'm going to leave here with my head. So yeah I think that's worth talking about. >> So it was 1996 I was in Rwanda and we had something that people don't know so much about right now. shortwave radios. We didn't have cell phones. We didn't have fax machines. >> And so I'm sitting in the radio room and this guy puts out a call and uh his name was Jim Linquist and he was calling from a place named Kushungu and Zire and I've never met this man to this day. And he said he had over 60,000 refugees had come in and they needed medicine. They they they were sick. So I said, "All right, we'll try to help you." I had our airplane loaded with medicine in Nairobi. I got my passport and a passport of two other guys. Went down to the Zirean embassy right there in Rwanda and I applied for the visas. Paid a $100 expedition fee expediting fee rather and came back the next morning. Got it. The airplane came in. Me and another guy uh Mike Van Royan get in the airplane with a pilot Curtis Wilkerson. We fly to this place called Buna, B U N I A in northeastern Zire. We land there about 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon. It's a grass strip. And a guy comes out. He's screaming at us in French, wanted to know, "What are you doing here? Why did you come? You don't have permission. We showed him the visas. He took our passports." And he said, "That's $100 fine each." So I give him 300 bucks. And he said, "Come back here in the morning and we'll sort this out." I didn't know what he was angry about. We go out to the mission base at a hospital called Nan Kundi. It's a 10-minute flight [clears throat] away. Next morning at 6:00, 6:30, there's a dozen guys coming looking for me, James Isaac's, and with guns, the soldiers. And uh they arrested me, they arrested Mike, and they arrested Curtis. They took us down to the hangar and for 11 and a half hours we were interrogated uh individually and they would write their questions down in lingali their local language they would translate it into French and this young guy there would translate it into English and ask us and so they're going through this all this dialogue they it it was a bad situation it just it wasn't good and I thought this is going to go violent here. I can see being beat and I see blood and urine here coming out on the floor and that didn't happen. They interrogated us and then the next morning they put us in our own airplane and had us fly them to Buna and they put us in a house, locked us in mission director's house. Ian Campbell was his name and um they said we were spies. They accused us of bringing in poison medicine even though they sent the medicine off and left it at the mission hospital. And uh what we had missed was that the day that we flew, Rwanda launched a war against Zire where they had 2.3 million people in refugee camps uh further south in a place called um GMA. And we just happened to come in. It was like bad timing. Real bad timing. and uh they saw a stamp in my passport that they associated with some American activity in Uganda and they said you're a spy. So they gave us a lunch break during the interrogation. I'm a skydiver. I've got few hundred jumps and I saw a guy had wings on him and I thought I'd go out and talk shop with a boy because I've done skydiving. And I said, "Oh, you know, I'm I'm skydiver too." and in my school boy French and you know I thought we had made a bond there and maybe he'd be a little bit nicer but he went back inside and told him that clearly I was a spy or a special forces guy because I I was a skydiver too and um you know there was about a 3-day period u where I was drawing all of my strength totally from the book of Isaiah and um uh we didn't think we were going to make it and I in the margin of my Bible is still written to this day that my travel Bible will I die tonight or tomorrow and I I felt like our death was very imminent and um but as it turns out u a doctor friend an opthalmologist Dr. Tony Uketti. He's a man. He's jet black skin. Beautiful man. I love him. He came in one day and he wasn't jet black and he wasn't smiling. He was gray. He looked like he'd had a heart attack. And I said, "Tony, what's wrong with you?" He said, "They've notified their general officers in Kissingani that they've got three Americans here with an airplane." He said, "We've got to get you out of here." He said, "When the soldiers get here, they will kill you." And um so it became sort of desperate. We got out, bought our way out. Ironic part of the story is this. I'm standing at the plain side. This guy that had led the interrogations come up, short guy, never spoke a word of English. He says, "Hey, Mr. Ken, how do you like Zire?" I said, "Uh, well, I like Zire fine. I said, 'I love the people here. It's beautiful.' He said, 'Th That's good. And I said, um, I want to congratulate you on your professionalism during the interrogation. And he said, thank you. You, your CIA taught me. And I said, well, and you speak English, too. [laughter] >> He said, yes. And uh, so he said, you know, I want to come and visit your country. So I took one of my business cards down and I wrote down every phone number of everybody that I could think. And I thought, "Yeah, you come to Charlotte, North Carolina, buddy. I'm going to make arrangements for you." >> And I gave him that card. And um he asked me, he said, "You see the brown man over there?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Would you take him out? He's an Egyptian military adviser. They'll kill him when he gets when they get here." And I said, "No, it's against policy. I'm not allowed to take anybody except staff." He said, "Please, Mr. Ken, he's a father." So I said it was a it was it was like surreal, Kyle. It was unbelievable the the shift in the power that like I'm under this guy's thumb for a week and now he's begging me to take some dude out from Egypt. And I said, "All right, it'll be $200." He reaches in his pocket and he pulls out two crisp $100 bills that I had just used to Yeah. >> buy my way. I gave me $200 back. We took that man out and dropped him off. in Uganda and in 2018 uh an ambassador 2018 that this happened in 1996. In 2018 I'm in Addis Ababa and I meet the ambassador from Egypt and he said my country owes you a debt of gratitude. I said why? And he said because in 1996 you took an Egyptian military advisor out and his daughters are grown. He's a grandpa and and you say we and you know I was totally floored. I was weeping with with you know I was just so surprised. Plus I was sort of amazed that they had tracked that intelligence all that year and had connected it right back to me. But um you know something that happened that ties into what we were talking about when I got back to Nairobi. You know we were all high-fiving it. We got out. We were that close to death and uh two two guys came to see me. Jim Stright and Lauren Fast in Nairobi. They were missionaries and they came in. Lauren sat right here and Jim sat right here. They're like in my space. Like you're creeping me out, man. Why are you in my space? You know, I didn't know it, but they started asking me these questions. Tell us what happened. How do you feel about what happened? What are you going to do now? That conversation went on for about two hours and when they left I clearly and distinctly remember feeling better. They had had training in critical incident stress management and I never knew it until I was at ground zero in 2001. And about five years ago, I was in Nairobi and I ran into Lauren Fast in a mall and I had the distinct privilege of walking up to him and saying, "Len, you came to see me in November of 96 and you sat down and you talked to me after I was arrested. Do you remember that?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "You had critical incident stress management. I want you to know that you help me by being there. So having a tool is good, but I'll tell you what else is being a good is is just being present. Do you know when when you've had somebody in your family die before? I'm sure we all have. >> People tend not to want to ask you about it, but yet if somebody says, "Oh, so Kyle, your loved one died. I'm so sorry. Tell me what happened. What was Actually, people want to talk about it. But most of us are afraid to ask about it. And it's the same way after something like that is traumatic. And I know that when I would be away in a war zone or in a in a area where I've seen horrible things, when I come back, the average person in my hometown would come up and say, "Oh, how are things in Rwanda? Have they stopped killing each other yet?" >> Yeah. and and you get it's I call it the 15-second CNN window to make a statement and that's it. Okay, that's it's good to see you, man. I'm glad you're looking good. Really, what I could use is just somebody to be there with me. They don't have to say anything because in time I'll start talking. And um and so, you know, I would encourage all of your listeners, don't be afraid. You use the word sympathy and empathy. The difference being empathy is you you've had it, sympathy is you you're sympathizing with you be there and show those kind of emotions because I think you know when I've lost loved ones uh whether it was my mother, my father, my wife, I appreciate it when people come up and say how are you doing and they actually want to sit down and talk with me and they'll spend 20 or 30 minutes or you know whatever talking to me. I appreciate that a whole lot more than I do the pat on the back and the 20 second glib remark and then they move on. >> Well, and Ken, I think as well, you can be present without being in someone's presence because your presence is a present. But I think about it this way. There's a buddy of mine whose dad died suddenly years ago. I've got a reminder in my calendar every year on that day where [clears throat] I will text him to say, "Hey, brother. I know today could be hard for you. It's a fairly macob anniversary. Just letting you know I love you. thinking about you, praying for you today. What does that take? >> That is priceless. That is priceless. >> And and guys, like you you don't even have to plug it in your phone with your thumbs. Most of us have like a voice thing that we can say, "Hey, set a reminder for every year on this date to to, you know, message, you know, Tom or Jim or whoever." Like, you can do that. And you can just let someone know, I'm with you. You've got a bar on your shoulders and I'm just going to get up under one side and help you lift a little bit of that weight off. Uh, Ken, I want to read a a quote here from the conclusion of your book and then ask you one last question. I'm certainly no prophet. I am not a preacher, but I can testify that the cadence, the rhythm, the speed of the fulfillment of prophecy certainly appears to be picking up in my lifetime. Simply take a look at the pace of technology and changes of recent years around the world. Deviousness, brutality, and savagery. The increase of wickedness is clear. With the way information is given or withheld, the way the power is centralized in governments, and even the concentration of power and authority that exceeds governments, how much longer can the world continue on this trajectory? In the meantime, Jesus told us what to do. Stand firm for the gospel of his kingdom. So, I can say yes and amen to that. And the one thing I would add because this leads to the okay, well, what's next for Ken? What's ne next next for Samaritan's Purse? Can I have been talking about the fact that Christians in Africa have been beheaded and sought out for destruction for years now, but here we are recording this in in November of 2025 and all of the sudden everybody is now aware of, oh wait a minute, tens of thousands of Nigerian Christians are being slaughtered by Muslim Islamists in the name of uh their false prophet Muhammad and their false god Allah. Wait, what? What? And then you have President Trump coming out and saying that, "Hey, they better knock it off or we're going to end it." And and you're not going to like the way that we're we're doing it. I think his exact words was we'll go in guns blazing, right? And so again with Trump, you never know how serious he is, but you have to take him serious at the same time. So for you and the work that you're doing, and it's not just Nigeria, it's Mosamb beek, it's Sudan. There are specifically Christians that are being slaughtered specifically by Muslims simply for the fact that they are Christians. And so what is Samaritan's Purse's role with that? What is what is your role with what is currently going on and is continuing to go on in Africa? >> Well, it's Africa, but it's other countries as well. I can tell you um >> the the It's a deep question. It's deeply frustrating because there's not a clear answer and there are going to be martyrs. There are going to be people that are killed for their faith. Jesus told us, "They hate me, they're going to hate you more." And um uh but we still are called to stand up for our brothers and and I think that we're called to try to protect them and preserve life. Um the situation in Nigeria is very complicated because you have a functioning government and you have functioning state governments. You have a standing army. You have standing police forces. So why isn't the government protecting its own citizens against other of its citizens and um I I don't know the answer to it, but I am thrilled to hear President Trump bring some attention to it. I don't know. Gun blazing. I you know I don't know what's going on with that but and and I don't like you said you know I don't know where he'll actually take his action point but uh calling it out is is a good thing and it is something um you know one thing I can tell you right now there is a man named um Mark Walker and he is the uh nominee for the um uh ambassador at large for religious freedom in the state department. the fact that, you know, we're 11 months in to a presidency and they've not been able to confirm somebody. Mr. Walker, who used to be a congressman in North Carolina, that's how I know about him. He cares about protection of Christians and religious freedom. And you know, all religions need to be free. If if they're not all free, Christianity won't be either. And we're not taught in the Bible to live under a Christian theocracy. It's a we have free choice, right? And um uh but it is a huge problem. It is a huge problem. I have seen particularly in Sudan. I've seen it in South Sudan. I've seen it in Congo. I've seen it in uh Uganda. I've seen it in Nigeria. I've seen it in Syria uh where in July there were massacres of Christians and Jews um in in the southern part of Syria. And um in second Timothy chapter 3 I think verses 5-7. I don't always remember the address as well but you can check that out. Uh it says that in in those last days people will become boastful and lovers of themselves always seeking knowledge but never acknowledging truth. And and that one verse has always stuck with me from when I was a young Christian, 13, 14 years old. What does that mean? But now with telephone technology and electronic data and the way that we communicate, people are always seeking knowledge, but they don't acknowledge the truth. And the truth is Jesus Christ. That's the truth. But they're blind to that. They can't see that. And um horrible things in the world happen. You know, I think of uh the religious suppression and the brutality that is going on in China right now in Myanmar. We put a hospital up there um in February and March during after that earthquake. And we wanted to work with the churches that that's you know the churches are not free there. They they live with persecution all the time. And that kind of persecution, you know, whether we like it in human terms or not, makes the body of Christ stronger. And um I'm not but I'm just saying that's I'm not being an advocate for killing Christians, don't get me wrong, but they will not be able to kill us. And we know who the ultimate victor is. And we know what the truth is. And um but we still need to shed light when these atrocities happen. And so I I applaud President Trump for doing that. And I hope our Congress, our Senate will confirm our ambassador at large on this issue. >> I hope so as well. So Ken, I mean, we've weaved in and out of a lot of different things here. It's such a powerful conversation today, but that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> Well, um, it's been a joy to be with you and I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed talking and uh thank you for giving me the opportunity to sort of sauté myself sachet myself down memory lane there on some things are a little tough to talk about but I appreciate it and I appreciate your ministry your show. So thank you so much >> Ken. Thanks again. There you go guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with Ken Isaacs. But before we let you go we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental and physical resilience. So, in the show notes, I've got a link to where you can buy your copy of Running to the Fire and a link to where you can support Samaritan's Purse. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unton.life. That's info@undantton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] >> [music]