JOSH HOWERTON | Slowing Societal Decay (Ep. 965)

Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional. It is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31. life/31day to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31day. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Hey, welcome to your podcast studio. [laughter] Is that what I'm supposed to say? >> This is when we say let's kick this pig. Okay. Is that a Kentucky thing or is that a >> Yeah, it's a rural Kentucky thing. Well, actually, so here's what we found out about that. Uh what what was that movie, Carlos? It was uh >> Oh, it was uh uh down Periscope. So, all the guys in my high school. So, >> how old are you? >> 34. >> Okay. So, Carlos is like 19 years old. >> Well, you're basically a billion years old compared to How are you? I just turned 42 weeks ago. >> 40. Okay. All right. So, I'm aging. >> Back in the 1900s when I went to high school. Yeah. Same. There was Kelsey Grammar did a Well, Bro, you should remember this movie. >> Fraser. Yeah, but I don't remember. >> No, no, hang on. Let me finish my sentence. This is how you do podcast. >> Yeah, I just interrupt people the whole time. [laughter] >> So, Kelsey Grammar did a uh a comedy when we were s when I was a sophomore, I think, in high school. And it was called Down Periscope. So, then when I was growing up, all my Kentucky boys whenever want to go somewhere, everybody say, "Let's kick this pig." So then it was actually a live free listener cuz I kept going like it's a Kentucky thing. A live free listener in the comment section, right? He finally was like that's not a Kentucky thing. That's from down Periscope 1996 or whatever it was. And then they sent us the clip and sure enough that's where it comes from. >> So what was it like? What was like the context of let's >> submarine is getting is pushing off the dock and they say let's cook this. [laughter] >> So is that how y'all like lead off staff meetings now at the church? No, that's just that's how I like my kids anywhere anytime I go somewhere. I'm always like time to go to school. Let's get this pig and there's just been >> everyone kind of knows what to do at that point. They fall in line. >> Everybody knows that's that's our thing. >> Well, I will say uh my thing is typically I like stick to times and if I tell someone I'm going to be somewhere at a particular time, I do that. But over the years, I mean, I've been doing this podcast thing for like 9 years and so I've had to reschedule some stuff and stuff had to get shifted around. But normally the excuse is, hey man, lost my voice. Hey, I got sick. Hey, you know, kid had to go to the emergency room, but never once. This is a new one. I've been summoned to the White House. Sorry, [laughter] I had to like move our recording time or something like that. That's the one you hit me with yesterday. >> JD Vance beat you. >> And so, uh, so what's that about? And why are you more important than everybody else? >> That's not true. >> That is not true. The second thing you said is not true. >> Uh, well, man, it was [clears throat] it was a brief meetings with uh JD Vance. Uh, and it was just a chance for people to ask us some questions. Then, uh, them solicit some feedback. Um, and then, bro, I will be honest, I think I'm allowed to say this. Then we all went up to Susie Wilds, that's chief of staff's office, and they there's like a little terrace outside of her office in the West Wing >> and we're all out there and everybody's having lemonade or whatever. And uh, and President Trump walks out and he's just sitting there while we're all sipping lemonade for like 45 minutes hanging out. I'll be honest, kind of cool. >> Yeah, that's cool. It was kind of cool, you know. So, same thing, you know, soliciting some some feedback and uh and answering questions. >> So, is this feedback along the lines of like, okay, politically speaking, capital C conservatism, hey, we can't let Texas go blue, or is this more like, hey, moral thought leaders in the country, like, hey, let's let's make sure we're going anywhere. >> Well, let me just be real clear. You know, there's there's probably 20 of us there. I barely got a word in. Uh, but you know, like there would be times where they would just ask questions. Hey man, what are you seeing? What are you thinking? What are you feeling? That kind of thing. And I'll keep some of that, you know, to the conversation there. But, uh, you know, I think I think they did I think they did a good job soliciting some feedback. >> Well, and so I guess I'm curious because you and I have talked about this offline, but obviously one of the ways that you and I got connected was your sermon a couple years ago on politics. >> Well, that's the first time we ever >> That was the first time. So, Joby was >> our mutual friend Joby. >> Yeah. So, shout out Joby Martin. He was just like, "Hey, y'all just talk and figure this out." And so, [clears throat] you came on my podcast. y'all didn't have a studio, right? I remember y'all were like setting up trying to figure out how the television behind you could have like the the church logo and all that on it. And so, cuz I just wanted to get into the Okay, this is a unique thing where a pastor is not running away from the political stuff, but leaning into it. But >> that is not let me just say that has not worked for us very well for the last 30 years. >> It doesn't sound like it. Uh well, I mean, because ultimately it's like if you if you create a vacuum, the vacuum will be filled. godly people won't godless people do. >> Well, and I ask people all the time and so people are like, "Ah, Christians shouldn't be involved in politics." And I'm like, and so I just I do the assumptive close. I'm like, "Okay, so why do you feel like that it's better that government is only ran by atheists >> that you're you're right >> and then just be quiet and then just watch them like drown people say?" >> So most people are absolutely flumxed by the question because it's a sincere question, but it's pretty prickly, right? So I I try to make it a little bit more prickly, but I'm just like basic because they don't think of it in those terms. And so they kind of meander around things that resemble points but aren't actually points. And it's just basically like, well, you know, there should be some level of morality. And Carlos and I were talking about this before. And it's like, okay, but to whose morality do we appeal to if we're just highly evolved chimps that figured out language, pants, and fire? >> Yeah. >> And they're like, and they don't think about it in those terms either because like if everything is nothing, then I hit you over the head, I take your stuff, nothing went wrong. you know, zebra, baby zebra's killed by a lion or can't put him on trial >> or I just vote in Muslim communist and then take your stuff, >> right? [laughter] And then we get to but we get to feain, you know, positivity the entire time. >> We feel very pious because we didn't dirty our hands while Yes. >> Well, so I so I want to talk to you about this cuz I mean you've talked about the the Red Green Alliance and so for anyone that doesn't know what we're talking about, [clears throat] so red that's socialism, communism, and then green is, you know, basically fundamentalist Islam. But I did an episode not long ago called Hell's Hydra. And so Hydra, you cut the head off, it grows right back. >> And so I kind of see this foreheaded thing that is being manifested really honestly in the Big 10 of the the current Democratic party, but it's fundamentalist Islam, not radical Islam. That's not a thing. It's fundamentalist Islam, as you know, Raymond Ibraham uh talked about. He's been on the show several times. You have socialism, communism, >> then you have LGBTQ plus activism, and then you've got globalism. >> Yeah. >> And you have these four incredibly large, incredibly dominant hegemonic >> fifth. >> Yeah. feminism. >> We're seeing that now, >> which is like kind of gave birth to a few of those, but that's a different thing. >> Well, and I mean, well, everything goes because, you know, feminism, um, critical race theory, critical theory that goes back to Frankfurt school, goes back to Karl Marx, goes back to Satan's butthole. That's basically the the transition down like from I maybe, you know, too much too much, you know, lean into it. But like where we're at right now is you have way too many and you've talked about this so often. You've had way too many Christians that love to sit on the sidelines and lament and then they want to be like, "Oh, I'm being persecuted." And it's like, well, you know, you voted for your persecution because not voting is also a vote, especially in tight elections. And so, I I just wonder what you're seeing now because y'all aren't just sitting on the sidelines in terms of what's happening in the state of Texas and then, you know, beyond that nationally. And so, why continue to step onto that third rail, which is the political sphere, >> man? So, like there's a few. One is, you know, let's go biblical and then pragmatic, you know, biblically. I dude, I'll be honest. I I don't know how to read the Bible and read about uh Daniel, Moses, uh Nehemiah. I mean, you just list them all off. I don't know how to read the Bible and read about all those guys and then reach the conclusion, Christians should stay away from politics. >> Let's go. Yeah. >> I I don't know how to do it. I also like, man, when somebody says, and dude, this is interesting. And I will just say this is a bit of a theory. So I I would like I'm going to put my Bible over here. >> This is a bit of a theory >> because I'm doing interpretation, not just recitation. >> Uh when somebody says to stay out of that stuff, what they're really asking me to do is, hey Josh, would you please disobey Jesus command to be the salt of the earth? >> Yeah. >> You know, obviously like anybody that's listening to to Undaunted, you know, they know this, but salt, what is it? is a preservative salt of the earth. What is your job to preserve societal decay? So I just what a lot of people do is like, "Hey man, it's fine for you to be an influence for Christ and disciple people for Christ inside the church." >> Yeah. >> But man, what have we to do with judging outsiders? That's they'll kind of misapply the first Corinthians thing. And then um I'm like, well actually what you're doing is notice that passage. It doesn't say to be the salt of the church. It says to be the salt of the earth. That's right. So, you're asking me to disobey that biblical command. Now, I will just say this, and this is where my Bible's over here, and this is a theory. Uh, but it's really interesting to me that Jesus says in that passage, he says, "Hey, man, if salt loses his saltiness," and then he goes, he says, "It's actually no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot." And I'll just gently say this. Uh there caveat. There is a way for churches to get co-opted by like uh political messaging and things >> and it's it's not good, bro. >> Yeah. >> It's like real not good. But then there's also a way to just abdicate your biblical responsibility, be a salty earth. And I will say, dude, sometimes I'll look at churches who take that stance and it almost feels like God removes their a bit of anointing or influence. And sometimes I wonder if that's the real world application of Jesus going, "Man, I wanted to use you, but actually you're not good for anything except for me to throw you out and trample you underfoot." And guys, I told you I was going to do that. >> Yeah. >> So that's the biblical. And then you already hit the pragmatic. I mean, dude, I'll just say this. Uh, something happens in a man when he's got kids he's looking at and all of a sudden now I'll just be like, typically for dudes, they don't care a lot about the future until they got kids. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Then you put some kids on the table and now all of a sudden I'm looking at my kids and something activates inside of a man. He'll die. A man will literally die to hand his kids a better societal inheritance and make sure that they're going to inherit a better world than he got to live in. >> So, man, you get a few kids under your belt and all of a sudden you're like, man, here's what I'm not going to do. I'm not just going to sit passively by and and and let uh the societal inheritance that my kids have to take from their dad's generation, Yeah. >> be worse and make their life worse and make the accomplishment of the great commission harder. and then they grow up in a society where it's way way harder to raise a Christian family. How about no, I'm not going to do that. And then the last thing I say is just what you said is man um it's the uh uh it it's called uh it's called an inescapable principle. [snorts] The question is not uh whether someone is going to influence uh politics and society. The question is who. [laughter] >> That's right. >> That's not a question. So, you know, the thing that we've already said is if godly people don't, godless people will. >> Hey guys, real quick. So, pretty much everywhere you look right now, all anyone in the fitness and wellness world wants to talk about is peptides. 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That's victrixwellness.com/kyle. when you we talk about fathers with sons and so we don't want to hand a lot of fathers are concerned about handing too much decadence to their children's future but then they'd seem completely unconcerned with the amount of decay they're handing to that next [clears throat] generation >> but at the same time so you mentioned Nehemiah my favorite book of the Old Testament uh for a lot of different reasons but it's because of the subtleties because not only was this man brokenhearted over a city he had never been to that was in ruins right but he went to the Lord before he went to the god king artery right and so you want to talk about speaking truth to power. He could have lost his head the moment he asked for the request. And then he just kept going. Hey, can I have some wood from the forest? Hey, can you give me letters to safe passage? He gets to Jerusalem and doesn't immediately say, "I am here. I'm here to fix it all. No more tears." He surveys. He surveys. He gets ready, right? And then he says, "Okay, we're going to fix this. We're going to change it." And it wasn't like, "All right, guys. We're going to give you 90 days, P90X. We're going to get you spiritually, mentally, and physically ready." Blah, blah. It's like, "No, work starts at dawn. You better be ready to work with one hand and fight with the other." And so you have too many men that are unwilling to work. You know, you've talked about how many men are out of the workforce. And then you have a whole lot more men that are completely unwilling to fight, whether that's physical or verbal, right? And if you're not pushing back darkness, it won't push back itself. Like, you know, darkness doesn't have its own pause button or governor, you know what I mean? And so there have to be people, especially shepherds, that are leading people. And I mean, just think of the shama. How are you going to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength if you ignore the political and cultural sphere? Like don't you think politics and culture is somewhat downstream of those other macro categories? But in and even look in your state right now, you and I have talked a lot offline about James Terico. Uh the moment he beat Jasmine Crockett, I I did an episode where I brought all of his quotes out similar to how you did. And it's like here's what he said. Here's what he actually believes. And and I also said, "Hey, guess what guys? If squishy Christians, so like nominal Christians, Christians in name only. I call it country music theology. Like you were born in Texas, you listen to country music. Everything's wrapped in an American flag. So you get to go to heaven when you die. Like if those people either they're like, "Well, that James Taller Rico, he seems harmless, right? That's the wolf in sheep's clothing part." Or if they just sit on their hands, then guess what? Y'all are going to lose a Senate seat here in the state of Texas to uh to a Democrat. And then I think he runs the Obama playbook and immediately runs for president 18 months later, right? And who's to say that he doesn't win because he's, you know, >> he's he's harmless, right? like he believes the things that I believe and you know all those traditional like Christians >> for listeners that that's that's Kyle mimicking what someone else would say. James Terico does not believe what Kyle Thompson believes. >> Yeah. You never know that, you know, but he could, you know, I haven't talked to him directly. Y'all should have him on the show. Uh see, >> let me ask you Can I ask you a question? >> Let's go. >> Okay. Like uh uh in uh I think it's Third John, there's the ver so I've had people reach out and be like, "Hey man, would you have him on your show? Would you debate him?" There's the verse in I think it's third John. It's either second or third John that essentially like hey man uh when somebody's a false teacher you know uh this like actual actual high-handed heresy [clears throat] like you you don't even you have nothing to do with that person. Do you think h like debating that type of person on a podcast like ours would be a violation of that verse? >> Um I don't think it would be a violation of that verse. What I would say is debates are only worthwhile if both sides are operating in good faith. >> So I was asked like, "Hey, have Nathan Atfell on your show." Like he came after you, he came after Joby. Have him on your show. I'm like, "I would rather nail jello to the wall cuz that'd be like more worth my time. >> Don't bring people on who you know are going to lie. >> You can't debate with a with someone that's not a good faith actor." And so that would be my issue with him is he's not a good faith actor. He's clearly a wolf in sheep's clothing. And so like I don't get into the whole platforming games like well you platform that person. It's like yeah I talked to another human being that I happen to disagree with. So what sue me. But at the same time what would be accomplished in that other than him throwing out a bunch of like like nonsense [clears throat] philosophical language and he's going to come in here and try to appeal to the more conservative side of your base which is the people you're shephering here at this church. >> And so that's how I think about it. The fruit I think it's a poisonous tree. So it's that legal concept of it's it's fruit of the poisonous tree. you got this evidence via illegal means, we can't administer it or admit it in court. So, any [clears throat] fruit that would come with that would be fruit of the poisonous tree. Cuz people that don't like James Herico will still not like him when y'all are done. But there could be a percentage in what will likely be a close Senate race of people of your own flock that are like, "Ah, he's not as bad as I thought. He's better than Pakistan or what whatever their their way of operating is." And so, I mean, how overt though do you need to be in kind of how you speak? Because some people are really shocked, you know, when you say things on Sean Ryan, like, "Hey, look, I love Muslims. I hate Islam." They're like, "Oh my gosh." Like that's that's too overt. But the Terico stuff, it's like if you just pick around the edges, like people may not be able to pick up on what you're laying down. >> Yeah, dude. If it's that's the thing. It's like, you know, I don't think you can gentle nudge that stuff. You know, you I've heard it said before, you want to preach with a jackhammer, not a feather duster. >> You know, it's like if it's a And the other little axiom is if it's a what's If it's a if it's a what is it? It's like if it's a mist in the pulp and it's Yeah. If it's a mist of the pulpit, it's a fog in the pew. Dude, I've just learned I've just learned you got to say something like in a very straightforward way like 10 times before people start to internalize it. So, you know, like like a little subtle hint [laughter] just ain't going to do it with kids, too. >> It just ain't going to do it. >> So, yeah, I think we I think we've been pretty overt. [laughter] >> Yeah. And then uh like we we even I know this was a little weird for some like we built a website to mobilize Christian voters. >> It's great. >> By the way, text the word vote to the number 20411 and you get our little voting thing. It works in literally every state in America. And all it does is it's going to give you a reminder either one or two days before the midterm elections and you can put in your address on that website and it will spit back to you, I think, in in literally every county in America where your polling station is, what you need to bring in your state and where to go. >> Well, and so that's the difference between pointing at something and saying that bad, don't do that, don't support that. But then it's like, okay, if we're going to push back darkness, sometimes that requires a little bit more of you. It's not always a pound of flesh, but sometimes it requires a little bit of organization and a little bit of planning because you have to assume what will someone do once they're in office. I don't honestly care what they fervently believe in the their heart. I care how they legislate. And so, you brought up Trump. Is Trump pro-life in his heart? I would say probably hard to prove that, but he's legislated in a more prolife way than he has the opposite. But then, you know, the the [clears throat] thing for what y'all are doing in terms of like being overt, you know, one thing that you and I talked about years ago was I'm like, "Yeah, Josh, sometimes you just have to say the thing, >> bro." You know, it's really funny. I know where I was standing when >> Okay, I don't know the back story, >> bro. I uh I don't know if I'll I'll just start talking and see if I'll say the specifics. >> Okay. >> So, we were I was standing back by my fire pit and it was the first time we had ever talked on the phone. >> Yeah. >> And it was I think we were setting up our podcast interview. Yeah, probably. >> And you know the two thou you know I I'm this is something dude every pastor >> 24 >> this would have been I think this would have been 24. >> Yeah. >> And you know I think every pastor you got to learn like hey man I'm I'm learning. Yeah. >> And it was around that time I was like dude I don't I I don't think I'd be doing my job if I didn't like figure out a way to disciple my people through what's going on right now. Mhm. >> And I was processing with you the moral asymmetry between the public publicly proposed policies of the right and the left. And I was like, dude, I honestly, man, right now, because of the moral asymmetry that's currently there, I I don't think Christians should be voting Democrat. I'm like, but I but it's hard for a pastor to figure out how to how to how to disciple his people to that. And I remember you said, you just say it. [laughter] you just and you know and it was like I I seriously was like >> I yeah I guess you could do that. [laughter] >> Well I so I guess where that came from is cuz I've been doing the men's ministry thing thing for longer than I've been doing on Dawn in life and I've seen different ministries kind of pick around the edges especially with sin. So you know you have these men that talk about oh I'm struggling with porn. I'm struggling with masturbation. I'm struggling with all these things. Well, first of all, if you were struggling in those areas, you would actually have more victory because in order to have victory, you have to struggle. So, there you go. Bob's your uncle. But at the same time, it's like I would just tell guys, I was like, "You know what? I got a secret for you. You don't actually have a porn problem." >> Mhm. >> And they're like, "Well, what are you talking about? I have to have this app that, you know, sends a message out to 10 people if I go to the wrong website." I was like, "No, you have a masturbation problem." >> And they're shocked. And even like, you know, if a pastor's in the room, it's like, "Oh, you said the M word." Like, they're not allowed to say that. I was like, "Well, if he stops doing that behavior, Then is he I don't think >> one's a lead measure to the other. >> Yeah. I don't think he's going to be watching that stuff for the acting quality. And so yes, there's a self soothing issue there. There's something else upstream. But it's like let's just go one more layer upstream. It's that thing you probably heard about. These guys are having like, you know, lunch by a river. And then some kid comes, he's down the river, he's drowning. Oh. Oh. So they jump in, they grab the kid, they pull him out of the river, and they're like, "Oh man, that was crazy." 5 minutes later, another kid is coming down the river. He's drowning. Help, help, help. Three guys jump into the river, grab the kid, get him out. third kid drowning, coming down the river. Well, two of the guys jump in. One guy starts running upstream. They're like, "Where's Larry going?" So, Larry's gone. Okay, they bring the third kid out. 10 minutes goes by, there's not another another kid coming by, but here comes Larry. And they're like, "Dude, where'd you go?" Like, "We we almost didn't save this last kid." He's like, "Well, I went upstream and I stopped the guy from throwing kids in the river." >> Good idea. >> And so, it's like at some point you have to go upstream. So, setting up that voting site. >> Yeah. >> That's going upstream. getting ahead of things with the narrative like that episode you did on Ter Rico, you're getting upstream and so for your job as a shepherd like you have no choice but to do that. >> Well, good. I'm glad. Thank you. >> Well, and so I even curious like how does that extrapolate out into the future because there's two things that you've kind of hit on recently that I mean people just don't want to go anywhere near it. So there's James Taller Rico who's kind of a manifestation of all of this kind of wolf and sheep's clothing version of Christianity. >> Can I say something about that real quick? >> Yeah. I'd love to know what you think about this because man, [clears throat] like especially, you know, and and I get it. I I don't expect every pastor to do what I do. >> Yeah. >> I I don't I'm not one of those guys who uh anybody that doesn't do it like me is a coward. That's not my thing. I understand Ephesians, book of Ephesians, you got, you know, he gave some to be apostles prophets evangelists shepherds, teachers. I understand different giftings. I I get that. So, I'm not the if everybody doesn't do it like me is a coward. I'm not that guy. Um, but for pastor, tell me what you think about this. For pastors, just helping guys figure out because what's happening for us right now is people are watching what we do. And you know, I kind of will get the the question will be asked like this. The guys will reach out. They're curious. Hey man, you guys are kind of like breaking all the rules and your church is still blown up and you're baptizing a whole bunch of people. Explain it to me. Like that's what they'll kind of do. like you're doing all that stuff that that they that they said you're you're never supposed to do and it's still you know and you know there's some things I have thoughts about that but but if a pastor is watching [snorts] here's my theory I like know what you think Kyle you're you're a man of the word is man I I honestly think there's been a little bit of like a a satanic strategy shift and I have more than one example of this where I think like you kind of had a vibe for a little while where pastors would maybe accidentally and honestly very often for well-meaning reasons. >> They would disciple people into e either political passivity or political ambiguity. Political passivity would sound like, "Hey, man, we don't get uh we don't get political, you know, the uh what is it? Uh uh I won't remember the little phrases." Stuff like that. Okay? We don't get political. Stay away from it. Um political ambiguity would sound things like, man, you know, uh the gospel is neither right nor left, and that's your only that's the only thing you ever apply to at a societal level. Yeah. So then people just leave confused. So you got political passivity or political ambiguity. And I do think there's been a little bit of a satanic strategy shift where he where where the enemy kind of went like, "Huh? Well, then if I put the false teachers in politics, they have ingrained rules that will keep them from confronting those guys." >> Yep. >> I honestly think that's a thing. Like it caught people off guard when we and we were we were real. Dude, I think we when did we do our first James Terrier Ego episode? Was that 2023? It was the Rogue of 24 maybe. >> 24 maybe. You think five? I think it was You think it was five? We We were like real early. Yeah. >> And we used the word false teacher and people were like, "What are you talking about? He's a politician. >> He's a pastor, you know." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's my point. Yeah. >> That's my point. >> Yep. So, you know, I do think there was a man, Satan kind of went, if I put the false teachers in politics and and the pastors have already been discipled to never be clear about political applications or moral asymmetry, >> man, the pastors won't even oppose them. >> Well, here's my first Trinity call. Hey, Trinity, we're just going to have to stay here for another two or three hours cuz we're going to have to unpack like every last bit of this. She gave us a thumbs up. We're good. So, I think what I would say, so first of all, to someone that's saying like, "Well, you're breaking all the rules." My I love answering stuff with questions. just because I like kind of seeing how people's minds work. So, it's like, okay, so who wrote those rules? >> Where did [clears throat] those rules come from? >> Are are those the church growth model rules that were established at some point that no one can fully define? Is that the the early church uh you know, book of Acts? Those rules like what rules are you talking to or appealing to? And so, you kind of figure that out. But the the real reality, and I think you're right, because in order for Satan to be the father of lies, he has to have a really good relationship with what truth is. Like Satan knows the the the verses better than we do, right? Because how is he going to corrupt them if he doesn't know what the the real McCoy looks like? >> The church writ large, the capital C church has accepted its position as being downstream from culture. >> Yeah. >> And so if you're downstream from culture and culture says, "Oh, no, no, no. You were born this way. Love who you want to love. Love is love actually." Well, if you're going to be a good church, that gets patted on the head by culture. Like I think you may have even said that in the Philip Anthony Mitchell uh podcast and all that where it's just like you know culture is going to oh >> there's an unspoken agreement. >> That's right. Yeah. The unspoken >> the world has an unspoken agreement with a pastor. If you take it easy on us we'll take it easy on you. >> Right. And so what better scheme than from the lead slanderer the the head liar than to put a seminarian someone cuz people don't know. They just say seminary and they think oh godly person. But it's like, is this a seminary that's attached to a synagogue of Satan? Or is this a seminary that's attached to people that actually look at the Bible, read, and just try to do what it says? And so, he's a seminarian, right? He's he's cleancut. He speaks well. Do you know he's actually delivered sermons? You know, he's actually helped old ladies across the street. Did you know? Did you know? Did you know? Well, he doesn't have nearly the baggage the the guy that's wearing the red tide does. And so, hey, here's just, you know, somewhat Christian howdy duty. let's put him out here in front of you and he's going to mimic the nostrums of culture while eroding the foundations of what even makes a Christian to begin with. And [snorts] so, and then you have the inherent and immediate uh defense of whoa whoa whoa, aren't Christians not supposed [clears throat] to judge? And it's even worse for you cuz he's also a Christian. >> Yeah. >> Then you start asking the questions is like, well, what fruit of gospel repentance do you see in the life of James Terico and the things that he's advocating for? >> Let's just start with transing the kids. like let's start with something light. And so when you accept your responsibility or positioning as being downstream from culture, this was always going to be the plan. >> Yeah, I I'm with you. >> When so then the question is, so what do you do about it? And so you what you don't do is pretend it away or, you know, I'm just going to do the Benedict option. I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to ruffle any feathers. I'm just going to, you know, go do my lout out thing out in the woods, right, with my chickens and my homeschooling. And I'm not anti- either of those things. Bring me some of those eggs and like raise up those godly children. Amen. And amen. But so what is a pastor of a church to do when you've made the decision? And it's not like a burn the ships moment. This doesn't have to be your dramatic, you know, William Wallace riding on a on a horse moment, but at some point you draw a line and you just say it with your chest and stand by it. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. I mean that Yes. You know how our our strategy and approach honestly that's honestly man that's a little bit of why we started dipping our toe in podcast world. >> Yeah. >> It shoots you real straight >> you know. I will say and this is like you could literally do a whole podcast on this like there's a difference between shepherds and prophets is shepherds I'm going to find they hey I'm going to lead you in paths of righteousness for uh for his name's sake. So a shepherd is going to figure out where you are and then I'm going to take you by the hand and I'm going to gently lead you from here to there. >> Yeah. >> A prophet just walks in, drops a truth bomb and walks away. Okay. So I'm a shepherd. So you know there's a process there. I got to I got to teach my people some foundational concepts. Make this make sense. If id have just if if you took what we're doing now and then just time machined it back to 2021 that would not have been good pastoral leadership. >> Um so I will say that but then how we think about it man is uh we just think in terms of like we think of disciplehip in terms of air war and ground war. >> Uh ground war is applying the gospel to people and families. That's uh and then air war so down there uh air war is applying the gospel up there and out there to uh culture and society. And uh and so man, you honestly one thing that honestly does bother me a little bit is when pe if people are only they only see what we do online. Sometimes I get this thing that all that guy ever does is talk about politics. And if you go to actually if you go to Lake Point our people would be like what are you talking about >> right or just listen to the whole episode and [laughter] you're like there's that too so you can just do that. you like people in like what are you even talking about? It's like you know on the weekends I I I honestly almost never probably not enough. And so like I almost never mess up. I'm preaching verse by verse through second Timothy. I just finished 42 weeks in Acts, you know? It's like that's what I'm doing. It's just all disciplehip. And then even on Blue Free, dude, like 80% of the episode is just nerding out of the Bible. And then for like 20 minutes at the end, we'll hit a cultural thing and do a little air war. But here's what I would say to and then we can drop it and move on is in the same way that in a military engagement if somebody has ground superiority but they have literally no air air force like no air support. >> Well every time it's fine but every time every time your ground troops win battles the enemy's air for just air force just flies in bombs what you did and undoes what you just won. >> Y >> I'm like kind of man if we don't do any air war disciplehip guess what's going to happen to our people? I'll disciple them in there and then they'll walk out and they'll be scrolling TikTok. They got false they got wolves in their pockets now and and and watching their favorite politician, watching their favorite influencer and they don't know all the political and cultural conversations that they're watching in those scenes are reverse discipling them out of what I just did in the ground war. So, we just figured, well, man, we're we're going to have an Air Force 2. >> Yeah, >> that's [laughter] kind of what we decided. Well, you you've got them for 45 to 60 minutes on a Sunday. And if they follow up with Live Free, they might get one or two more episodes a week. So, that's your level of disciplehip, but all you got to do is go into their settings of their phone and see how much screen time they spend and, you know, what apps they're on. And so, it's like, yes, you have these people that are being discipled by Tik Tok, by, you know, by Instagram, by, you know, all these different Pinterest. And then you run into something that I've been talking about all year. I've been obsessed with it since last year whenever Charlie Kirk was murdered and within weeks these these things that just were coming out that was like well there's that doesn't have any basis in reality but wait there's a bunch of dorks on the internet that believe this like what wait what's going on and it's kind of all kind of been this this overwhelming sense of there's just a culturalwide societywide lack of discernment that there are people that can't just discern and this isn't about IQ this isn't about functioning prefrontal cortices or whatever this is about like wait this guy says this is true and here's his evidentiary basis for that. This gal says this is true provides no evidentiary basis for it whatsoever but just says it with a lot of shurness in her voice and and uh you know then you you just say well you couldn't possibly say 17 things in a row and be wrong about all of them could you? And the thing about the just asking questions things and I'd love to hear you because I mean again Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, Ian Carol, these guys, they're just asking questions, Josh. They're just asking questions. You know what questions have answers and you know how we know that those answers are true? There's evidence that undergirds the truth claim. And so if someone does not provide an evidentiary basis or a scaffolding underneath the claim that they are making, then all they're doing is positing a hypothesis, which is fine. It's cute. It's fun. do it around a campfire with a cigar in your uh one hand and a and a scotch in the other. Hey, let's just bandandy about how do you think the pyramids were built? Hey, I think this may have happened. Hey, it may have been giants. But at some point when we're talking about real tangible things that are happening right now, what is the evidence for your truth claim? But I mean, Josh, we're kind of in a post-truth culture and it's kind of like, okay, well, how in the world are we supposed to operate within that? >> You I think you just got to disciple people. [laughter] We have to like we got to at least disciple Christians. Yeah. >> Well, here's what I say. Christians should never be in a post-truth culture. Like we're Christians. Our whole thing is we are the truth people. >> That's right. And this book happens to have that in it. And you know, if you're not studying it, that becomes an issue. >> On that uh on that whole phenomenon, there's a few interesting things. I'll take a few shots at this and we'll see what happens. >> All right. >> And uh we may ask you to, you know, edit something out. Well, you know, you don't do that. Never mind. I'll just We'll see. >> We don't edit for content, Trinity. You heard that. We don't edit for content. All right. You can just bleep random words though, so it makes sense. >> She just coily says, >> "Yeah, she's the best." All right, just [laughter] the big thumbs up. She knows. She knows better. Carlos is terrified over there. He's like, "What is he about to say?" No, he's good, too. >> Carlos has to manage the mobs. I don't mess with uh what? So, there's a few things I would say. First of all, uh honestly dude >> after the Charlie Kirk memorial thing, which take out all the I don't care what you take out what you want to take out. the the act like the actual gospel was presented and celebrated a minimum of three times including calls to repentance. >> That's right. >> And you have like actual Christian spiritfilled worship leaders leading the entire nation in actual worship of Jesus Christ. >> Thinking about it again >> of Jesus Christ. It's it's insane. It's insane. Honestly, dude, if I could get back in a time machine, I would have tried to disciple me and be like, "Hey, dude. You know what comes next?" So here's the here's the little thing that you I mean your listeners probably aware of this but I'll just do the little thing the you've heard it said before that whatever God creates Satan counterfeits. God has holy spirit. Satan is an unholy spirit and he is followed by more unholy spirits the Bible calls demons. So whenever you see an action of the Holy Spirit what you will always see is an opposite reaction of unholy spirits the Bible calls demons. There is literally a reason for for uh for listeners. This is I did this three years ago. Blew my mind. Take two this is a fun little exercise. Take two highlighters, two different colors. Read the book of Acts. And every time there's a revival or an outbreak in the spirit, do one color. And then every time there's a mob or a riot, do another one. And bro, the dad gum outline of the whole stinking book of Acts. Revival, riot, revival, riot, revival, riot. So honestly, we should not have been surprised because we are ignorant of the devil's schemes. It should not have surprised us that after and dude I know this sounds dumb and I thought you know some people think I'm stupid for saying this. It's just math. That was the largest evangelistic event in human history. >> That's right. >> If you are measuring in terms of impressions of the gospel being shared across any platform. >> So I don't care what you think about the politics of the thing. The gospel was actually and explicitly shared with more people in that one day than any other time in the history of the world. Well, guess what comes after revival, Kyle? Riots. I'll also say this, bro. It's interesting, dude. Uh, if you pick up when I was studying Acts for that series, doing the verse by verse thing through Acts. So, it's I think it's Philip preaches in Acts 8 and there's this big uh revival or outbreak of the spirit in Samaria, I think. And, bro, literally the next thing that happens, Simon the Sorcerer shows up. And now all of a sudden what you got is the revival gets interrupted by somebody who seems to have this demonic power to sort of cast a distracting spell over people. Now I'm not saying Candace Owens is like a witch. I mean maybe [laughter] >> it's not impossible. >> But but I'm just saying like hey dude sometimes it's like the book of AS acts maps onto reality in ways that become a little eerie. I I'll just say >> well actually let me ask you on that since you brought up the witch thing because as you were saying that I was thinking of the word bewitched because I've I've talked to people that are that are fervently in Candace Owens's camp where it's like she says it take it to the bank it's as good as gold and when you talk to them and and a lot of these people these are friends of mine these are people that I've operated with and been in relationship with you know in a myriad of other contexts but it's as if they've been bewitched. as if they've been like swept up into something that they don't have, I don't know, the the internal fortitude or constitution to push back on or to question the questioner. And so and and [clears throat] because you know I try to do that with everybody because I I tell people like if you're my friend and there's a fight that's about to break out. Even if you're the one that through the insult that started the fight, I'm going to defend you physically. But I don't feel this like tacid assumption to defend even my best friends for their opinions because I know if I look back, you should always look back on who you were about 5 years ago and be a little bit embarrassed. Wait, I believe that. I thought that I I wore those. >> That means you sanctified yourself. >> Yeah. You you're on that journey of sanctification which is the middle part of your salvation. Glorification comes later. justification happened whenever ago. But at the same time, here we are dealing with that. And you know, yeah, it is Romans 8 or not Romans 8, Acts 8, but it's like there she's bewitching people. And so I'm not I'm not claiming that she is using like alternative powers or dark evil spirits or anything like that, but you can't just outright deny it either because of the impact it's having on people. Like they're absolutely caught up. >> And there's a reason the Bible calls him the father of lies. So, so any lie that comes to you, it may have come through somebody else's mouth, but we know it originated with with one guy. Father of lies. >> Yeah. Yeah, man. There's something to that, dude. I will, you know, sometime >> Sometimes you [laughter] Sometimes you just have to say it, right? Carlos gave me a thumbs up. Sometimes you just have to say the thing. >> The the the type of families that listen to Undaunted Life are not like this. Um, and some of the guys churches that we love and respect are not like this. uh our wives, I'm sure, uh are not like this. So, let me let me just get get heavy caveats out. I will say, man, we need we need some good uh we need some real good female trutht tellers. You know, it's like I'm not saying all uh I'm not saying all women's ministries are like this or all women's conferences are like this, but a lot of times, you know, the little stereotype what you get is a men's conferences, hey man, you suck and Jesus is great and pick yourself up loser. >> See you again next year at Beast Feast. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Pick yourself up loser. And it's kind of that kind of vibe. And then the stereotype is you walk into a women's conference and it's like you're enough. [laughter] It's kind of >> you're just so special. >> Yeah. Now listen, the reason I'm going to say this is you, if you're listening, you're like, "Man, that guy's so toxic." >> You should hear Jana. She's 10 times more toxic than me on this. Like, you know, that's Jana's like ultimate pet peeve is like, who's telling the who's who's who's discipling women to get past their feelings and love the word of God, be women of the word of God. And you know, I you know, we we probably need a little more of that uh to to because you know, no surprise, I asked somebody yesterday what what they uh what percentage of Candace Candace's audience they estimated was female and they were like probably 80. >> I mean, it's it's a large percentage when even so, uh just timing wise. So, I'm I'm interviewing Chuck Swindoll tomorrow. I'm jealous. >> And so, you should be um you can touch me later if you want to. Like, you're get some of the power. Um, but like [laughter] the the overwhelming thrust of the the interview for me and the questions I'm going to ask is going to be around finishing well. I think you mentioned MacArthur recently, a man that finished >> finished sprinting through the finish line as fast as he could. You know what I mean? And the thing about it is we have way too many I'm normally talking about the men, but let's keep it on the women's side. There are way too many women that are in the third and fourth quarter and their entire life revolves around the wine club that they're a part of. uh you know the gossip thing, the newest form of exercise they're doing that's not even technically exercise, but they're able to convince, you know, suburban women to do it. Um and so they get they're sweaty or whatever. But anyway, >> yeah, that was me. But [clears throat] >> the the the problem is is they're not even looking >> for somebody to mentor, to pour into, right? Because it's not how many years you've been a Christian, it's how many hours. And so [clears throat] if you're a woman that has spent so many hours in this in this book being discipled, being a godly wife >> to only in your last 10 to 15 to 20 years to just say I I've ran my race. I did a good job. I raised my children. My marriage is still intact. Good enough. I'm sorry. In the Christian life, there's no such thing as good enough because of what you said earlier of sanctification. That is a daily journey where the bill comes due every morning and the bill needs to be paid or else you're going to work up a debt. And [clears throat] so, and the same goes for men. The exact same thing. But I think you're right. Part of this lack of discernment is people have not been taught how to discern because wisdom is a gift of the Lord, right? There are people that have really high IQs that are dumb as a box of hammers because they just don't know how to apply the things that they that they know. And then there's people that didn't go to college that can be like, "Well, no, I I know the difference between good and evil. I know the difference between wrong and right. I can look at evidence and make a decision for myself." And you're right. I just don't think we have enough women that are feeling equipped or being equipped to be able to do that for other younger women. >> Yeah. >> Well, let's change it. >> Well, okay. So, so in in terms of changing it, it's one thing to point at the thing as we've already talked about that's evil. Let's not do that. >> Again, as a shepherd, >> and people love to criticize how you're doing your job, right? Church is too big, too many campuses. You should How are you focusing on the blaze? You're not going to be able to visit people in the hospital. Is people struggle with words. they don't know how they work and so it becomes a bit of an issue. But like for you, how as a shepherd in your early 40s with all things being equal, a lot more runway and a lot more shephering to do, how do you specifically equip the saints to do that to not only finish well, but to continue pouring wisdom down? >> Yeah, man. I think you talk about it a whole lot. So, there's a few things I'm doing is man, and you know, I just want to I just want to honor I just want to honor a mutual friend. You know, if anybody's listening, they don't know this this I decided in 200, it was 2020, actually. It was late 2019. I was like, every preacher needs a preacher. And I was like, if if the Bible says I'm supposed to gather with the the saints and sit under preaching every week, well, I might should do that. [laughter] And so, you know, I'm usually doing a preaching. So, I decided in 2019, hey, every Monday, I'm going to pick a preacher and I'm going to keep the same one or two and I'm going to I'm going to make my coffee. And back then, I would go down to the bass pond. I lost all my bass a few years ago. It was really annoying. And uh and I open my Bible and get my coffee and and listen to a preacher and I I pick Joby. Joby was one of the two guys I picked. And I listen to him every single Monday. Every single Monday. And and so I just want to want to shout that out. One of the things that I've really learned from watching Joby is how he uses his pulpit to disciple the people. It's very disciplehip disciplehip disciplehip. And I'm always trying to like, dude, I'm shameless about it. I'm like, I will find somebody if you're 10 years ahead of me and you're who I want to be when I grow up. I do not mind at all just watching you and like, okay, I'm going to do that. Okay, you're doing that. I'm gonna do that. I hate my way. Yeah, that that's called the book of Proverbs. Yeah, go get wisdom, you know, and uh and so I just watch that. So, >> one, there's a couple things I'm doing on that front. Uh, one is I'm just watching any way I can find to like leverage our my pulpit into actual disciplehip steps. So, it's like it's very like when I finish a sermon, there should be something that's like a dude walks out and he's like, "Oh, I need to go do that this week. All right, I'm going to go do that." Okay. Direction not intention determines destination. It doesn't matter how bad I want to go north. If I get on a highway going south, I'm not going north. Okay. Direction not intention der determines destination. The other thing, man, is I'm just try like honestly what I'm trying to do a lot right now. It's interesting you asked this because this is something I've been thinking about a lot. >> I'm [snorts] trying to constantly I'll do stuff like this. I'm constantly dignifying senior saints and calling attention to it. So like there's a few like constantly like these guys they're I'm like literally every week for the last five or six weeks. >> Like whether I'm preaching Acts or I'm preaching second Timothy, I'll start every sermon. So here's what this book is. >> This is a senior saint whose age started with a five or a six disciple young man whose age started with a two or a three. And I'll just say one or two sentences. Hey man, if your age starts with a 5, six, seven, or eight or higher, you need to have somebody whose age starts with a 1 2 3 or four. and you need to, you know, I'll do the thing. Like we got, they're called rooted groups here. We got a disciple 10 week disciplehip disciplehip experience. We get everybody through at at Lake Point called Rooted. >> And I'm constantly saying, "Hey, man, do you know what we're not going to do? We're not going to stick a bunch of 20-year-olds in a room to do Rooted together because the concentration of stupidity there is, you know, more dangerous than a weapon of mass destruction." >> No. And I'll just tell them. So, if you're younger at the church and a lot of them are like, "Oh, it'd be really cool. That guy's really cool. That 28-year-old's really cool." I'm just constantly telling them, you don't need that 28-year-old. You need a 55-year-old, >> right? >> Who like he's got some got some decades under his belt. He's been through some things. He's seen Jesus sanctify some things in his life. He's got a wife that loves him. He's got kids that are happy and love him. That that's who you need. >> You need the guy that looks a little bit like a dork and his khakis are pleaded. That's who you need. You know, teach you how to make a budget. Teach you how to build a business. You know, that's what you need. The other thing that I'll do is like I do this constantly, man. Just constantly. just why if you're listening and whether you're a pastor or like you're just a Christian and a disciple, listen what I'm saying here and then you'll start going, "Oh, okay. There's a light bulb there." It's like the the book of Proverbs is By the way, I'll do it again. Do you know what the book of Proverbs is? Here's all it is. It's a guy whose age started with probably a 5, six, or a seven, >> writing a book to his kid whose age started with probably a two and it's just a dad going, "Hey son, let me disciple you." That's literally all the book is. >> That's right. [laughter] So, so this theme is all throughout the Bible. But what's funny about the book of Proverbs is I tell my kids this all the time is the whole book of Proverbs like, "Hey, man, you know how valuable wisdom is?" It's so valuable, you know. So, you know, you need it more than gold. You need it more more than fame, more than And then it it boils it down. You're all leaned in and he goes, "You know what the number one step to getting wisdom is? Get wisdom." Literally, >> it's the most jo thing that anyone can say. Literally, that's how the book. So, here's here's Oh, here's my secret. >> Get wisdom. That's right. So, so literally all it's here's all the book is saying is is here's how I'll apply it when I'm discip because our church is a lot of younger guys is I'll just be like, "Hey man, if your marriage sucks, here's what you need to do. I tell them this all the time and you'll see guys do it. You need to come 15 minutes early to the service with your wife and stand at the back. Then here's what I want you to look for. I want you to look for somebody who's got a little gray hair. uh their age. Again, I'll do the same thing. Starts with a five, six or a seven. And they walk in holding hands with their wife. And then I want you to stay at the back of the room. And then for the first 10 minutes of service, I want you to watch the guy who keeps his hand around his wife's waist while they're worshiping or uh dur during the the sermon, he's got his hand. They're a little they're a little handsy >> and then they're actually smiling. Yeah. >> And then they walk out of the service and she looks happy. And then here's what I need you to do. You need to find that guy grabbing the lobby and say, "Hi, my name is Bill." Whatever it is. We are bad at marriage. You seem good at marriage. Can we take you out to lunch and ask you questions about how not to suck at marriage? Yeah. >> And then you write down everything they say and you do it. >> So, you know, to back to your original question, you know, it's like you just got to as a pastor, I think you got to find handles to dignify senior saints. By the way, we are the first generation maybe in the history of history >> that valued the quote unquote wisdom of youth over the wisdom of age. >> That's the dumb that's the stupidest it's a d arguably the dumbest thing we do argue very arguably but it's one of them >> and uh so you just get you got to dignify it and then you I think you just got to constantly train your people to do it in addition to modeling it. >> Hey guys, real quick I just wanted to remind you that we have an official Undaunted Life store. You can go to shop.undaunted.life life or check it out in the show notes, guys. We're always going to have hats and shirts and a bunch of other awesome stuff. Go there, support us, wear the mission. Again, it's shop.undaunted.life. Check out the link in the show notes. shop.undaunted.life. >> Well, that's what I was talking about. I was uh I was in your office like rearranging and moving a bunch of stuff around when you weren't here and I was talking to your XP about like his background with church planning. Yeah, Tim's great. Well, his you know, his background with church planning um and you know, growing small stuff. I think he planted a church in like Mississippi and then like Arkansas. And so he's like showing how you can do uh you ministry in all these other different cohorts. And now it's like, okay, you know, y'all have a church that calls and basically says, "Hey, we're we're shuttering our doors. Do y'all want our church?" And then it's like, "Okay, well, how do we how do we like point that and how do we make it, you know, uh viable like for the local body of believers that will be there?" But part of the the thing that I was talking to him cuz I told him about Chuck Swindoll as well and some of my plans. I'll tell you after afterwards some of my my plans for for that interview. Um because I'm just, you know, I'm feeling the weight of it, but not like I'm nervous, but it's like I mean this this guy the level of wisdom he can bestow to my audience is going to be invaluable and all I got to do is wind him up. >> Can I put in a request for a question? >> Yes. >> If you >> and if I don't ask it, y'all will find out in the future because Yeah, >> cuz I I will listen to that episode. >> Hit me with it. >> Would you ask him, hey, if you could get in a time machine and go back to the beginning of your ministry, what are the three things that you wish you'd have done different? Okay. >> It's my favorite question to ask like dudes that finished well. It's like what what would you do different the responses you get are just mindblowing. >> Well, some of them I would assume are mind-blowing in their simplicity with how some people do because you would think like, oh, I would have done this incredibly different structure that was more complicated and all that. But, you know, in his in his memoir, uh, which is, you know, what was kind of the the nexus of even getting this interview and doing that whole thing, you're talking about a guy that's surveying his entire life from birth until now. All of his different ministry opportunities, being a Marine in the military and all those people, all those seemingly innocuous things where somebody believed in you and said, "Hey, I think you're a natural at this thing. Hey, I I know things are are bad at home and you know, your parents don't value you in the way that you think, but you know who does value you? God does. And he sent his son to this planet to die for you." and you know those those kinds of things. >> But I think wrapped up in all of this for Chuck, for Tim, for you is how do we teach our flock to feed themselves >> because if you look at the seeker sensitive model, right? If you want to, you know, uh even if you steal man, that model, it was this guy's got a great personality. Man, he's funny. So here's your 45minute TED talk. We're going to sprinkle some Bible verses over the top so you so we can keep our tax exempt status. come back next week for week three of how not to suck in your marriage or week five and how to honor God with your budget or whatever the the thing is that you're in. But what a lot of people found on the back end of some of those movements is that the flock didn't know how to go to the Bible themselves. Now, the pastor, according to the writer of Hebrews, is going to have to give an account someday for how he shepherded his flock. Right? For me, where I am, I'm going to have to give an account for how I have performed as the head of my household, how I've loved my wife as Christ loved the church, raised up my children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, all the things. But at the same time, like it's a different role for a pastor to equip the saints. But if you only look at the saints as dumb sheep the entire time, then of course you're you're the you're the shepherd. They need to come to you every week. >> There's a lot of pastors listening to this podcast. I just want to go with a verbal highlighter over what Kyle just said. So it's like if you just if you treat them like dumb sheep, guess what? They they end up acting like dumb sheep. >> So man, I will just say I want to verbally highlight what you just said for anybody listening. What I have learned low these now it does feel like a lot of years now I guess not a ton but a lot is uh if you baby Christians, you get baby Christians. >> Yeah. >> And what I've also learned is if you treat people like adults and talk to people like adults, they act like adults. >> Mhm. >> So I just want to verbally highlight that. I love that you just said that. Everybody needs to notice it. >> Well, and even for even for you, I appreciate you you double clicking on that, but how as a pastor, I keep kind of bringing things back to you and your chosen shephering style because again, you're going to have someone that sees a 30 secondond soundbite on TikTok and then they're going to like extrapolate out your entire theology for how you are to do ministry here. And so, but you know, again, word's hard for a lot of people, but for you, how how do you specifically create an environment here where them going to the word on their own? Them spending time in prayer on their own is not just a polite suggestion of, hey, this could make your life mildly better, but no, no, this is this is the difference between a standard and a goal. This is what Tim and I were talking about. Goals are cute, but standards are no, this is how I operate. This is how I am a disciple of Christ and for my family. Hey, this is what Thompsons do. So, as the lead shepherd of this congregation of your flock, how do you make sure to keep pushing them back to their own time with the Lord? >> Man, I think there's a few things. You know, first of all, this will surprise nobody. You know, it's like you can't give what what you don't got. you know, this whole thing you're teaching the toddler to to eat and you [snorts] know, you and then that, you know, >> well, man, what I really do hope and you know, I really do hope this I hope when when people, you know, sit under my preaching or listen us, you know, teach the word on live free, I hope that what they see is, man, he really loves that thing. He really loves that book. Like he like honestly what what we'll say like on live free is like we'll say we want to talk about the Bible like they talk about game seven of the NBA finals like that's how we want that's we want our vibe to be that. Uh so one I think you got to model it. Um two I think think you got to show people how to do it. So like man you know it's like my favorite sermon series we're doing right now are hey guys here's the here's the cute sermon series we're doing. It's 40 weeks in Acts. That's right. [laughter] >> Hey, you know, >> bring your friends. >> Bring all your, you know, what I almost did for 2027 and then I ended up not I may do it in a future year is like here's we're done. Romans whole year Romans. I know Job's done that. Kyle's done that. There's different guys that have done that. I was like, I almost did it. Uh, second Timothy, right? So, I think the great thing about that style of teaching and I'm like, I'm not a guy who's like the only you're you're not allowed to do anything except an expository series through book. I'm not that guy. That that's not how uh that's not how the apostles preached. So, that's just a different side note. >> Um, but it's my favorite way. >> Mhm. >> And what I've noticed is it teaches people how to think. It teaches them how to think and then and then they go home and they read the word like they heard you preach the word. I've noticed that. The other thing, man, you know, this is like boring pastor stuff, but it matters is like like [clears throat] what I try to do is build our annual this I hope this doesn't come off badly. I build the church's annual calendar around what I personally need to grow as a disciple. Like literally, you know, like we have we have an prayer and worship at the beginning of January every year and and it's like a big I somebody told us it may be the largest prayer service in America. I I think there were how many there were like 12,000 people there last year, something like that. >> Uh but and it's like in person. It's insane. I mean like you can't you you got to get here early early to get it's insane. And it's not like a cute little quiet prayer. I mean, it's like assault heaven prayer meeting. Let's go. >> And honestly, do you know why I do that? This is, you know, I may sound unspiritual doing this because after all the Christmas break and everything, I just get out of my rhythms and I need something to remind me that nothing matters but the power of heaven. And that's what Josh Howardan needs. And so I was like, you know what? I need I need that. You know what the whole church is going to do that. [laughter] And and that's why uh you know honestly what how I plan our sermon series now a lot of times is I'm like well you know what would be good for me as a disciple. [clears throat] >> Well I'll just preach that is if that disciples me I bet it disciples them. You know we even get into these rhythms where we'll do different things. There's a thousand different things. I'll just give you a couple. You know we got this little thing and then we'll come out of the summer and we do the whole it's the whole hot play 21 days of prayer and then we get Janna usually Jana writes some devotionals. We get our elders write devotionals to get them into the word. And then Jan and I will we'll take a season of fasting and lead up to the next. It's like an account. It's another spiritual uh it's like a prayer and worship kind of thing. And then you know why I did that? Because in the summer I'm traveling. I get out of my rhythms and I just a little bit man. I I I forget my first love. >> Yeah. >> And I'm like you know what Josh needs? I need something in about September to remind me that you know prone to wander Lord I feel it. Prone to leave leave the God I love and I just want to come back. So what I to answer your question as long as it's your question there's a real in my opinion there's a real cheat code to thinking about a church's annual calendar in terms of like what are the disciplehip rhythms that people need throughout the year just to just to keep them going in their sanctification. >> Well just about everybody that requires growth of some kind has to have some sort of a rhythm. So, I was talking with your assistant Janet and we were talking about, you know, your travel schedule and kind of how you really protect your schedule, you protect your family time. And so, like my boys are six and four. So, they're not even doing stuff yet, right? They're kind of doing stuff. Like, I took my sons to their first wrestling practice the other day. Both of them couldn't wait to tell the entire planet, "We're on the wrestling team." It's like, "Bro, you went to practice. Like, [laughter] you're four years old. Like, it was you made it through a whole practice being able to trust a fart." So, that's the win. You have not pinned anybody yet. But at the same time, the the the question that I that I have for people is if you're if you're looking for a rhythm in exercise. Well, if you take two weeks off, not because of injury, but just because you got busy, there's no rhythm there, right? Same thing with Rhythm of Bible study. I guess the number one most downloaded app as of like yesterday or something like that, is a doom scroll Bible app. So, it's one verse at a time, but you scroll it. >> What? >> Scroll it like you do Instagram. Scroll it like you do Facebook. >> Has anybody else heard of that? I don't have my phone on me. Uh but like it's got like a crown of thorns as the logo or something like that. >> And so if you think about it and there's plans uh >> it's a hopes not there. All right. Y'all should do your own to steal the idea. But there are plans that you can do or you can just pick a book like all right second Timothy. All right I'm going to doom scroll second Timothy. And you know how it goes. Like part of the reason why you know Amazon Prime or Netflix does the 5second warning before the next one starts is because they know if the next one starts the human mind is focused on two things privacy and recency. So if we if we pay attention at the very beginning of something and the very end of something, when we hear the beginning, we want to get to the end so that we can hear if they connect, right? And so you just immediately get started. And also, if you've read a book that's, you know, 500 pages long and it's three chapters, it's going to be hard to get through because you don't know when to stop. But if you read a 500page book that's 150 chapters, you're like, "Oh, I can do another chapter. I can do another chapter. I can do another chapter." Swipe, swipe, swipe. You have to make it and keep it part of your rhythm. And the thing about it is, and you know, Job's talked about this a lot. I think I've heard you talk about it. A lot of pastors get out of their rhythm and then they get taken out. Another thing I'm going to talk talk to Chuck about because I think he talked about, oh, it was the four S's. I'll see if I can remember, but it was like uh sex, success, uh, money. Anyway, so it was like four things that are basically like >> heat seeeking missiles for passes. And so one thing that I'm going to start asking people and for one because I just want them to get this into part of their brain because it helps them come up with a defense for it. But me to you Josh Howton, if Satan were going to come up with a plan to take you out, what would be the main thrust of the plan? >> Geez, man. Oh my gosh. Honestly, I think Okay, if I I think so. I think if he were able and I will fight with every soul of my being for it never to happen. If he were ever ever able to take out the thing that is probably uh the greatest earthly strength in my life. If he ever took out that relationship between me and Jana, >> I'm in [clears throat] I'm in capital T trouble. [laughter] Jana is Jana is a rock for me. >> She's your launch pad. >> She is my launch pad. And we have you know I got I got a lot of weaknesses. My marriage is not one of them. [snorts] And that thing that thing is a rock under my feet. Uh then dude, people have no idea. No idea. I wish they could hear the conversations about like, "Hey man, you Hey Josh, you got this." Like here's here's an example and I'll just move on. >> If I'm ever preaching something, I'm like, "Oh, this could go south. This could go south." Like honestly, there's a little thing in the back of my head that's like if I ever flinched or pulled a punch on not being honest about what the Bible said. If I came off stage, the first person to to be about it would be Jana be like, "Hey man, I think you flaked. [laughter] >> I love you, but you kind of suck a little bit." >> I think she like I love you. I I think you flaked. So, I'll just say one more time. If you think I'm toxic, you should hear Jana. [laughter] You know, whatever. So I man if he took out the launchpad uh I'd be in I'd be in trouble. >> Well so I mean and shout out to the gingers of this world of which Jana [laughter] is Lee Ginger. So I mean when the sun is your enemy think about how hardened you are. >> Jan is one of the rare gingers you use a little tan. >> No no never trust a ginger with a tan. I refuse to [laughter] believe that Jana is able to do that. I'm just going to assume it's going to be sunless tanner from here on out. However, I will go and say this cuz one of the heartbreaking things about what I do and and I don't there's no tongue and cheek. I know we're joking around a lot. One of the most heartbreaking things about what I do with Undaunted Life is the messages and DMs I get from men that so clearly do not have a shepherd. They are not under the leadership of elders that they trust. They do not have a foxhole, Matt Carriers, King's Table, whatever language you want to choose. So, they send their favorite podcast or a message pouring their heart out, admitting sin. But one of the common threads is guys that are in really tough marriages for a myriad of reasons. Maybe their wife is sick. Maybe their wife was uh unfaithful. [clears throat] Maybe their wife is kind of in and out of even paying attention to the marriage. Maybe they're having problems in the bedroom. Maybe they're having problems with, you know, disagreements on how we're going to raise the kids and should you work, should you not work, those types of things. But if you rolled it all into one package, it's their marriage is not a firm foundation under their feet. if they had to categorize their wife as a lid or a launchpad to their own personal disciplehip and ministry, they wouldn't they wouldn't be able to say launchpad. And part of that for a lot of guys, it's like, well, you're not going to have to answer to God for how your wife acted. You're going to have to answer for your own behavior. So, and you're you kind of suck at that. So, maybe let's focus on that first. But honestly, [clears throat] if you were sitting down with one of let's just amalgamate that into one young man. He's a ex guy with been married for x number of years to, you know, ex-woman. How would you disciple that young man to honestly control the controllables, which is what he's responsible for. >> Golly, dude, here's why that's hard, and I I'll see if I can cobble together something coherent. Why it's hard is it's so dang situational. I mean it's like man it's like you could have 10 guys here who were like man you know la you know lid not launchpad kind of vibes and hey struck and dude you could have 10 guys and 10 out of 10 like 10 out of 10 would mean 10 different >> sure >> disciplehip pathways >> so it's it's hard I mean you I think you start with you Vince Lombardi this is a football you know [laughter] >> you know I think that thing is like you gota Uh, and when I I'm going to use the word correct, and you know, there's a little bit of me that's like, why do we always got to freak out when we talk about a husband correcting his wife or a wife correcting our husband? Do we always got to freak out about that? >> You know, that's a thing, you know. Uh, but there's a truth to connect before you correct, you know. It's like, hey, man, I the reason that me and Jana like we can have Jana can be like, "Hey, man. I love you, Josh. I, you know, did you flake?" Yeah. [laughter] Is because we got thousands of hours of taking 1.6 milei walks every single night. Usually twice a day actually. Every single night when the kids go down. Uh we you know we we got we got all the things like I've I've I I stinking love being around Jana. So it's like you cultivate the relational environment where now all of a sudden a correction doesn't feel like an attack every single time. Uh and then honestly, you know, some some people just have they they do they got an immaturity about them. They got a disciplehip uh blind spot where uh it doesn't matter what you do, they are going to interpret any uh any correction as an attack. Well, now now we do need to deal with that. We need to do that. Make sure you're in a good Bible Bible preaching church. I I will just say this. This might get me in trouble a little bit, but please understand what I'm saying, what I'm not saying. Um I heard somebody say one time and I was like, I think that's true. is they were like, "Man, in our era, one of the marks of uh pastoral uh courage uh is is he willing to pastor the women?" >> That's right. >> And and here's why I say that, dude. Is you I mean, you you kind of know how this works. If I get up and like I did this few years ago, and I preach an 8week sermon series called Act Like Men. Everybody their moms preach that sermon series now. Uh you preach 8week sermon series called Act Like Men and it's aggressive disciplehip of your men, bro. It's It's all clap emojis. Everybody loves you. Every clip is viral. You're the greatest thing ever. >> Uh if I were to preach a twoe series called Act Like Women and then and by the way, I think I'm going to do it. I'm not joking. I think I'm going to do it. I'm wait I'm waiting for the right spot and just want to get my head around it >> this Sunday. do them both back to [laughter] back >> are heard here >> if I but and I and I honestly and you just took the verses that are gender specific commands to the women and you were just like here's what the word says here's why it's good for you and the Lord loves you in this command and here's what it actually means that you ought to do and what you know how to do bro I I I would I would be publicly crucified and flayed online for the next 5 months now I do just want to for listeners if when you heard that you had a little internal like, you know, clinch or flinch, you should at least stop and ask yourself the question, now wait a second. Why is that? And I to go back to something we said earlier, maybe just maybe just a little bit because you've grown up in a culture where you didn't know, but you were being discipled and the air you've breathed since you were born was at least a little late in feminism. >> That's right. >> Men are bad, women are good, men are naturally sinful. Men are naturally sinful and obviously need to be confronted, but women are naturally innocent and and need and need to be, you know, only encouraged, you know, it's like, "Hey, man." And what I would say is what whenever I say something like that, there usually there's usually a bunch of guys that are like, "Ah, what are you talking trying to defend the the women?" Yeah. >> Is that what it's called? >> Yeah. >> Well, [clears throat] what I would say is uh uh man, what you'll notice is that godly women want it, >> right? They want it. So, dude, and I I don't want to talk about this forever. We need to move on. But what's interesting, dude, is uh I think it's I think it's my most viewed sermon on the Lake Point page is literally an act like women sermon. I think it's the most viewed sermon we have. I think it's four traits of godly woman from Song of Solomon. And it's like just straightforward. Are you looking it up? This like straightforward Bible teaching women. And uh and and I think it's I think it's like 1.4 four million views or something like that. >> 1.3 and and dude and honestly I do what I would say to pastors is they're a little af you're a little afraid of it. And by the way, maybe you should be a little because just brace brace for impact. But what but what I will say is, you know, a little hell will break loose, a lot more heaven will break loose. >> That's right. You're either dragging hell up or pulling heaven down >> because women of the word are glad. Women of the word, they refu, they do not want their pastor to rob them of the disciplehip they need to become the woman they know God wants them to be. >> Amen. Well, so look at where we are in 2026. We've experienced four waves of feminism in general. First wave feminism was about suffrage. Second wave feminism was about sexual liberation. Sex with whoever I want. I can be as equally unpreg. No consequences for sex. Third wave feminism is you know what actually women are better than men. We actually don't really need men anymore. Uh women will take it from here. And fourth wave is what is a woman? And we don't exactly know what that is. And so we we got some issues going on [laughter] right now. And so but you're hit with wave after wave after wave. And if you're a young lady who's not being discipled or growing up in a godly home or reading your Bible for yourself or if you're lacking wisdom or discernment or something like that, you don't realize how you being subtly discipled by culture. Cuz that's the thing is everyone just assumes Satan's doing all of his scheming, you know, with, you know, big red suit, pitchfork, the whole nine yards. The subtlety is is the most pernicious because it's I'm going to subtly move you a little bit further this way and a little bit further this way and a little bit further this way. And this would be my encouragement cuz I know a lot of pastors listen to you. A lot of pastors listen to me and you know I I feel the weight of that. If you're going to do a women's conference at your church and the entire speaker docket is only women, you're messing up. >> You need to have men speaking at women's conferences. It is great to have godly women get up there as a model to these other women. They're more advanced in hours of being a Christian and they're giving these women good nuggets and good things. But there have to be godly men that are calling these women into a biblical feminine ethic as well. Because if if you don't have men because again, if you were supposed to be a shepherd, that is a role that's been specifically given to males. And if you're unwilling to do that because oh well, that's our women's ministry. It's like, okay, so so the women have no impact on the men's ministry because guess what? You want to talk about lid launchpad, that's going to affect your men's ministry quite a bit. big time. >> Yeah. Well, you do your beast feast once a year and you call it good. You hire a guy like me to come scream at your guys and then uh you know, you spend the next 364 days not discipling them, not telling them how they can catechize their families. But at the same time, I think if men are going to step into the roles that was made for them. They were built to go into that role. They were built for that armor. Then they have to just take some of the arrows. I tell people all the time because when people ask me if there's anything they can do for me, I'm like, "Pray for me. I'm at the tip of the spear." because at the tip of the spear, the arrow is either going to hit my shield, me, or someone that loves me that's right next to me. That those are my options, right? There's no one for me to hide behind when when I'm out there. And so, if you're in ministry, you have to be able to to do those things. And again, say it, stand by it, and then just kind of move on. Now, I know we got to wrap up here in a second. And so, um you know, I I love being able to just kind of go back and forth on all this stuff, but you know, let me just uh come up with a unique question. Uh if you were in a time machine and you were able to go back to the beginning of your ministry and let's [laughter] just say uh you wanted to change three things. Uh if there were three things that you could change, go back to early Howardon, what would you change? >> Oh my gosh, dude. That honestly nobody's ever asked me that before. >> It was a good question, so I figured I'd steal it. >> That's really tough, dude. Well, I mean, one of them for sure there were uh, you know, ah gosh, let me figure out the best way to say this, you know, uh, 2020 was a big, uh, wake up for me. And there were some mentalities that I I sort of brought it, you know, little there's a whole pastor nerd thing here that a normal listener would be like, I don't even know what he's talking about. But uh there was kind of like a codle left punch right man out of a well-meaning but maybe naive strategy to I'm going to to try to reach lost people and in my head the dictionary definition of a lost person is kind of a psychic progressive person. So in order to connect with that I'm going to codle left punch right and that kind of uh it was not it was not there are things I'm like ah man that that caused you to miss it man. And I I really genuinely look back in that little uh just the way that a couple I'm like, man, missed it. Missed it. Should have done that. Should have done that a little different. Uh so getting cleareyed cleareyed about some of that stuff. Uh Jan and I, the number two thing I'd say is it took me and Jana a few years to figure out the best way for me to unlock how Jana like rocket fuels. uh our life in ministry. That took me a few years. And dude, I look back, I'm like, man, if id have had a better applied theology of, hey, that's your helper. >> Yeah. >> If id have had a better applied the there's a that one little fix would have saved me about 30 different headaches. >> Uh that that one. This is just there. I guarantee when I'm done with this, I'm gonna be like, "Ah, I should have said that. I should have said that." >> Well, you knocked out two of them. Might as well throw another one in there. Yeah. Let's go. >> You gotta Man, this third one, this third one, I don't know how you fix it, man. So, maybe there's not a fix. But the f the first time that you know, as you may or may not be aware, every now and then the internet get m gets mad at me. >> And the the first time that happens to you, it is really disorienting. Yeah, >> legitimately it's really disorienting and figuring out how to how to shepherd your heart into a spot where you're like, "Hey man, uh the Lord is my refuge and my strength." Uh being able to just get to the spot where now, you know, you you really do you got to really go against all your human instincts and get to the spot where your reflex becomes uh love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. And and what you actually start to figure out is when you try to develop that that it actually starts healing stuff in you [laughter] really really it's this weird thing this I don't even fully understand the spiritual dynamics but it's like now it's like I am so [inaudible] off like and then the next thing I'll be like you know what I need to do I need to pray that God will bless that person. >> Yeah. >> And there's some there's something healing it does on the inside of you. I wish I could go back and and just give me a few coaching things on like here's how to be a disciple when that moment comes. So, I don't know. I'm sure I'll think of better stuff later. >> Well, you can do it for your next live free, but I do want to actually speak into that third one because I think it'll be helpful for a lot of guys, >> right? >> Because, you know, I get a lot of people, hey, I'm thinking about starting a podcast. What should I do? That that kind of thing. So, every time I get asked something like that, I go back to episode one. I'm recording in a closet in my house. No video. It's hot in the closet. So, I'm I'm in my underwear just, you know, I got my $50 Snowball mic. Everybody make sure you uh have this in mind. Like, imagine this, right? I don't want to. And so, I've got my laptop sitting right there and I've got this $50 uh mic and I bought something called a pop filter and I don't know how long how far it's supposed to be away and all the things. And before I recorded the first words of Undaunted Life of Man's podcast, we're coming up on a thousand episodes. The first words I all I could think is I'm just going to work as under the Lord. No one's ever going to listen to this, but I got some stuff I need to get off my chest and I don't like writing. So, I want to put notes on a sheet of paper. I want to hit record and then I just want to flow. And then, you know, over the years, everyone's heard me kind of talk, okay, and then it episode 100 was my first interview and then, you know, the forging table and then this and then this and then that. But I've kept the idea of working as unto the Lord. Whether there's a download of this episode or a million downloads of this episode and before I record another thing that that I got from Joby is whenever he sits there in his deer stand on Monday before the sun comes up, he opens up his Bible and says, "God, they're they're your sheep, not mine. What do you want to tell your sheep this week?" And so before I get going, and my editor Landon will probably probably sees this. There are sometimes that I hit record and then I'll stop myself for a second. And if you see me pause for a second, I'm basically saying, Lord, this is your audience, not my audience. What do you want to tell them before I walk on stage for a speaking engagement, it's if I feel any nerves at all, it's like, Lord, you built me to do this, so there no need to be nervous. Right. Right. Okay, let's go. What do you What chord do I need to strike tonight? Cuz I don't transcribe what I say. I flow. I have an idea of where I'm going, but I just kind of flow. What do you need to be said tonight? Because you are you are the the means and the ends, right? I'm just the guy delivering the mail at the end of the day. And so, uh, you know, for me getting to watch your ministry, watch what you're doing, to to get to know you and kind of see your heart behind everything. It's just been awesome to be on this side of of everything to to kind of understand the impact that you're having and the people in culture that will see what you're doing and that they will be attracted to the word. Whenever I was talking to Tim and Janet, it's like, y'all are kindling gatherers. That's a Matt Chandlerism. You can't save them. So you are gathering as much kindling as you can, tossing it around so when that, you know, that match falls from heaven that it just goes up like a bonfire. And so I can say from what I've seen and even the stuff that we've talked about off air, uh, you are doing a great job of gathering the kindling and I I'm just, you know, privileged to call you friend, but that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> I'm very grateful for you. That's all I want to say. I've been listening for a minute and uh, we need a whole lot more Kyle Thompson's the world. I'm grateful for you, my friend. >> Appreciate you, brother. >> Yeah, man. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@unaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void Awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah. [music] Heat. Heat.