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(dramatic music)
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- This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
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All right guys, today we've got a special guest
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on the podcast, his name is Josh Hawley.
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So he is a United States Senator
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representing the state of Missouri.
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He's a New York Times best-selling author
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of the book, The Tyranny of Big Tech,
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and his latest book, which is out now,
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which is really the center point of our entire talk today,
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which is Manhood, The Masculine Virtues American Needs.
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And before he was elected to the US Senate in 2018,
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he worked as a First Amendment lawyer
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and a law professor and served
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as the attorney general of the state of Missouri.
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But the thing about this book in this interview today
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is, yes, he's a politician.
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Some of you don't like politicians.
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I don't really care, I'll talk to you, whoever.
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But this is a guy that is a legitimate Christian.
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Now, there are politicians out there
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that love to put scripture verses on some of their mailers
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and they'll go to churches and go to rallies
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and things like that, but they don't actually believe.
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They don't believe that in Middle Eastern Jew,
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2000 years ago, died on the cross as a full payment
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of their sins so that they could be before an almighty
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and all just God.
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They just don't believe that, right?
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They believe in morality.
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They believe in a Judeo-Christian ethic,
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but they don't believe in Christ, but Josh Hawley does.
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And so he writes a book about manhood.
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And here's the thing, and I mentioned this in the interview.
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I've gotten a lot of manhood books sent to me.
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I've had a lot pitched to me for the show,
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some of which I've made it onto the show, some have not.
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But the majority of the ones that I've read,
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and it is a majority, I'm not being hyperbolic,
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they're just vapid, they're just empty.
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It's just platitude after platitude after platitude
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with no real connection to any type of a cogent philosophy,
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much less to a Judeo-Christian ethic,
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much less to a theologically adept
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and correct understanding of Christianity.
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But somehow, United States Senator,
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who should be in these Senate meetings,
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throwing policy stuff around,
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he wrote one of the best books on manhood
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that I've ever read in my entire life.
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As I was reading it, I was in the back of my head like,
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okay, this isn't that upper tier.
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This isn't that wild at heart tier of manhood books.
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And it was a complete surprise.
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I mean, I thought I was gonna be getting a policy book,
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and here I was, I get this book on manhood.
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So in this particular interview,
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I don't really wanna set it up any more than I already have.
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We're gonna talk about manhood and masculinity in America,
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and how the current state of manhood
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and masculinity in America is actually at threat
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of really ending our republic.
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So guys, I really enjoyed my time with him.
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So without further ado, let's get into it.
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- Josh Holly, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
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- Thank you for having me.
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- I'm so excited to talk to you today,
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specifically about your book,
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but I just gotta be honest with you right out of the gate here.
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Your staff did the right thing.
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They asked me before this interview,
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"Hey, are you gonna ask about anything else?
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"And you think about policy, anything in the news?"
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And I both faced light to them.
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I said, "No."
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But the world needs to know your answer
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to this following question,
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and I hope your soul is prepared for it.
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So here you go, it's a two part question to start out.
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- Oh boy, all right.
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- Do we have aliens and UFOs in our possession?
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And secondary question, how many aliens and UFOs
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have you seen personally?
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- No, I thought the second part was gonna be
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and is Joe Biden one of them?
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So first, I don't know the answer to the first question.
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I really don't.
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In fact, I was in a briefing with a bunch of military people.
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It's now been, I guess maybe six months ago,
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maybe it was nine months ago.
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And I still remember this part,
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they're kind of glossing over.
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They don't like to say UFO anymore, by the way.
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- Yeah, UAP.
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- Yes, UAP. So I'm listening to this and I can say,
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well, UAPs and there have been numerous sightings
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over decades in the number they threw out
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was a huge number.
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So I actually interrupted and I said,
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I'm sorry, wait a minute, can we just back up?
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Did you just tell me that there was X number
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over how many years at all of our military installations?
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And they said, yeah, that's right.
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And I said, that's kind of a problem, don't you think?
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- Yeah.
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- They said, well, we're studying it.
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We're studying it.
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So the answer is, I don't know if we have them
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in our possession.
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Nothing would surprise me at this point.
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And what was the second one?
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- Well, I just, you know,
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I figured you were gonna lie about the first one,
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which you just did.
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You said exactly what they want you to say, right?
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I just asked how many aliens and UFOs
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have you seen personally, which, you know.
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- Have a personal scene, who knows?
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Well, none that I know of, but you know what?
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Who knows what's real anymore?
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- Hey, they might be running the White House
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for all we know.
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So I appreciate you indulging me
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with that ridiculous question.
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You wouldn't imagine the people in my audience
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and their interests and that kind of stuff,
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but we'll leave that up to them.
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But the main thing I wanted to talk to you about today
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is your new book that is out now, guys.
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It's called "Manhood, the Masculine Virtues American Needs."
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So I just finished this book within the last few days
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and I told you off air that I thought it was a fantastic book.
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I get sent a lot of manhood books.
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I read a lot of manhood books because that's kind of,
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you know, our thing here,
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trying to equip men to be able to push back darkness.
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I feel that most of them though are fairly vapid.
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It's kind of the same, you know,
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pull yourself up by your bootstraps
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and you're gonna be fine and eat some meat and work out.
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And it's like, okay, all that stuff's fine,
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but there's a deeper meaning to all this.
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But I guess the easiest question is,
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why'd you write this book and why should we care?
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What a U.S. senator from the state of Missouri
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thinks about manhood?
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- Well, I wrote the book because I've got two little boys
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at home, Elijah is my older son who's 10 and Blaze,
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who's my younger son who's eight.
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I also have a baby girl.
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I say baby, she's two years old now,
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but she'll forever be my baby.
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So we've got my wife and I have these three kids
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and really the book started as me as a father
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thinking about for my boys,
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what is it that I need to do as a dad
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to help them grow into being the men
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that God has created them to be?
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And I love your slogan, your mission statement
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about pushing back the darkness
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because that really, if you look at Genesis,
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if you go all the way back and you look at the scripture
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and you look at Genesis,
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you look at Adam in the garden, we're all started,
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what is it God told him to do?
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God told him to go and push back the darkness.
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There's something in that call to men
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that it's goes right to the soul and core of who we are.
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So why should you care what I have to say?
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You shouldn't, but you should care,
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I hope about what the scripture has to say,
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what the Bible has to say.
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And if you're a Christian, then you know why that's true.
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If you're not a Christian, you can at least get on with this,
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that this book is the single most influential book
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in our culture or human history.
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So it's probably worth a look at it.
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- Yeah, even if you don't believe it,
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even if you thought it was written by Emperor Constantine
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and his buddies a couple thousand years ago,
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you should probably look at it and see it for what it is.
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I think one thing you made click for me
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as I was reading through the book, Josh,
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is I talk about equipping men to push back darkness
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and pushing back darkness spiritually, mentally and physically
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and all that, but it's like, what did God do
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whenever he, you know, he was the big banger.
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Like he pushed back the darkness,
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the void that was everything and put something there
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and cause it to be light.
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And so at that kind of clicked for me and I was like,
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okay, that's big.
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I'm gonna totally steal for that from you
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and put it in a book of my own here down the road.
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So, but in the second paragraph of the book,
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which by the way guys, if you're gonna write a book out there
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in your first chapter as garbage,
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just throw the rest of the book away
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because your first chapter, it really grips the reader
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and kind of carries them through so bravo on that.
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But in the second paragraph of the book,
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you give this quote that haunted me
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the rest of the time I was reading the book, okay?
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So to set it up, you're talking about conversations
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that you were having with your students
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when you were a law professor in Missouri years back.
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And when talking with a particular male student
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or with I guess just a bevy of male students,
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here was the quote from your book.
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One after another said, in one way or another,
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"I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with my life."
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And yet they felt that they were failing
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at whatever that was.
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The reason why that's so haunting
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is 'cause they don't even know why they're sad and empty,
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but they know that because they're sad and empty
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that they're failing.
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And so talk to me a little bit more about that
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because if you keep that in mind as you read the book,
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I feel like the content is even more juicy.
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- To me, I think what that really speaks to
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is the lack of purpose that young men,
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probably men of all ages,
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but particularly young men feel in our culture right now.
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And I've just seen it over and over and over.
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They don't have any sense of what their life
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is supposed to be about.
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And yet they want their lives to matter.
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Every man wants his life to matter.
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I mean, every man wants to leave a legacy,
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wants to make a difference,
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wants to do something purposeful with his life.
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But I think young men, especially today,
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hear constantly from the left and the media
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that their lives as men, A, don't matter,
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B, to the extent they do matter,
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make the world a worse place.
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To be a man is to be toxic.
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It is to ruin everything around you.
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So don't be a man, don't be masculine.
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Just try to make yourself happy,
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but don't be a man in doing it and hope for the best.
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And it has left them with such a sense of purposelessness
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that I think it has become for many a prison.
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And they don't know what to do.
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And yet they know they're supposed to be doing something.
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They long to do something that matters.
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They don't know what that is.
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And really, this book is my attempt to try
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and work back through, for me,
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what is the foundational truth of my life,
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which is what does the Bible say
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about what God has called men to do?
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And how does that vision empower us
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and call us towards something great?
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- Well, let's actually go a little bit deeper on that
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because there's another quote earlier in the book.
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It's this all is not well with men in America
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and that spells trouble for the American Republic.
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So there's a lot there in those two sentences.
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But specifically, we are told by reliable sources, Josh,
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like MSNBC and Vox and all these other places
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that we live in a patriarchal system dominated by men.
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But then we're also, at the same time,
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told that men don't really matter.
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But if they do matter, then that means they're toxic,
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which means they're patriarchal,
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which means here, let me just run around
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in this gigantic circle for the rest of my life.
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That's a leading to a sickness that pervades our culture
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and we'll get more into the actual specifics of that later.
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But why would you say even more to elucidate your point
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that all is not well with men in America?
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- Well, just look at the numbers.
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Look at some of the data, for instance.
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We have record high numbers of suicides among men,
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especially young men.
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We have record high numbers of drug abuse.
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We have record high numbers of alcohol abuse.
10:27
We have record high numbers of depression, generally,
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and then a record high level of fatherlessness.
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More men and women today, kids in America,
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grow up without a dad in the home
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than ever before in our history, number one,
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but also more than almost any other country in the world.
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I mean, let that sink in.
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The United States has fewer fathers in the home
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than just about every other so-called developed country
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and most every other country in the world.
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It is an astounding figure.
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So you look at that and you think about,
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"Man, what does this say about men? I'll throw one more at you."
10:57
There are fewer men working today who are able-bodied.
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I'm not talking about those who are seriously injured,
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able-bodied, fewer men working
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than at just about any point in American history.
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Those are not good trend lines.
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So you look at that and you think something is not right here
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and that is not good for our country
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because we live in a republic,
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which means we live in a nation that is governed by the people
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and it depends ultimately on the character of the people.
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And if you've got the men of this country
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who are unable to support themselves,
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let alone wives and children and neighborhoods and communities,
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you're not gonna have a republic for very long.
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- No, you won't.
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And if you're constantly surrounded by people
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that are abdicating their responsibility,
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you can't throw your hands up in shock
11:40
when things don't get done in a timely manner
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or in a positive manner.
11:44
And we'll dig more into specifically that stuff
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as we go into part two of your book
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'cause your book split into two parts.
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But one of the themes that is really prevalent in part,
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one of the book, but also throughout the entire book
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is you talk about, I guess you frame the arguments
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and philosophies that are downstream of Epicureanism, okay?
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So I'm assuming there are some philosophers in my audience,
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but for the most part, guys do not know about Epicureanism
12:10
or any of those types of things.
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So can you give us a little bit of a primer
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on what that is and specifically how that has a direct impact
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on the discussion of modern manhood?
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- Absolutely, it's an old idea that really now
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has incredible relevance for today.
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Epicureus was an ancient Greek philosopher
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and he was an atheist.
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His view of life was that the universe is empty,
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that your life is meaningless,
12:31
that the whole world is governed by atoms.
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He's one of the first people to actually discover
12:35
that the atom, so he was right about that,
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but he thought they moved totally randomly,
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history was totally random, your life is totally random,
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what did he draw from that?
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He said, just live to make yourself happy.
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I mean, in the short time you have on earth,
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try to make yourself happy,
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try to be tranquil, try to avoid conflict,
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put yourself at the center of the world.
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If that isn't the modern left mantra for today,
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I don't know what is.
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So Epicureus, I think, is maybe the philosopher of the age.
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How does that relate to men?
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That is the same philosophy men are told
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from the time they're little,
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that your life doesn't matter, that the universe is empty.
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The best thing you can do with your life
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is try to put yourself at the center of it.
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Just don't be a man though
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or pursue the masculine virtues
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because that's gonna ruin everybody else's life.
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- So as you're describing that now,
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and as I was reading the book,
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I was reminded just of the overall concept of libertarianism.
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And so there are a couple of different ways
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to define libertarian or libertarianism.
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One of that is to be a free thinker,
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of which point I think everybody with a functioning brain
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would say, yeah, that's a good idea.
13:37
You should be a free thinker to a degree.
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Don't just be a dogmatic individual,
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challenge things, think things through.
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But another way of describing libertarianism
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is living without any moral restraint whatsoever.
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And so I feel like we've lost the thread
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on epicurianism or libertarianism
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and gotten away from, hey, let's just think,
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let's question everything,
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let's make sure we think things through to where it's just like,
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hey, live however you wanna live
14:01
and anyone that says you shouldn't do that is a bigot.
14:04
- Yeah, I think the problem what you see with this,
14:05
this leftist philosophy, this epicurian philosophy today
14:08
is that it doesn't produce people who stand up in question.
14:11
It produces docile androgynous consumers.
14:15
That's the end goal of it.
14:16
So what's the message today that men are told?
14:18
It is, go to your basement, boot up that computer,
14:21
sit in front of a screen, buy some stuff,
14:23
entertain yourself, don't ask any questions,
14:24
do as you're told, be a consumer.
14:27
And that's your end goal in life, be a consumer.
14:29
Well, what do consumers do?
14:30
They do what they're told, they're constantly entertained
14:32
and then other people run their lives
14:34
and run the government.
14:35
What we need in this country are men who say,
14:37
you know what, I'm gonna turn off the screen,
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I'm gonna come out of the basement,
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I'm gonna get a job, I'm gonna take on responsibility
14:42
and I'm going to think for myself.
14:44
That is exactly what a man does,
14:46
that's what the biblical picture of manhood is
14:49
and much more.
14:50
But that's what I think today's left
14:52
in particular doesn't want.
14:54
- Okay, so I want to veer way off
14:56
and then come right back to where we are.
14:58
So again, no one in the staff get nervous.
15:00
All right guys, I'm gonna stick to the script here.
15:02
Guys, there's not a script, that's another joke.
15:04
Okay, you mentioned androgynous or androgynous.
15:07
That's basically you have both female and male characteristics
15:10
like it's just basically there's no gender.
15:12
Do you think that part of the push,
15:15
'cause there's a lot of pushes for transgenderism
15:17
and there's a lot of reasons for that
15:19
in terms of like breaking down the pillars of society
15:22
and the cornerstones of society.
15:24
But is part of what you're talking about this androgyny,
15:28
do you think the trans movement is kind of like rocket fuel
15:32
for that because again, LGBTQ,
15:35
those letters don't technically mix together.
15:37
There are a lot of gay and lesbian folks right now
15:39
that are like, wait a minute, transing kids,
15:41
what are y'all doing?
15:42
Like this is insane or am I potentially
15:44
drawing a connection that's a little bit too broad?
15:47
- Oh no, I think you're right.
15:48
No, I think the radical trans ideology,
15:50
which you see the left now trying to push everywhere,
15:53
literally everywhere.
15:54
You can't turn on the television without seeing it.
15:56
It's in school curriculum, says that.
15:58
There is no male and female that there are no,
16:01
it's really part of the overall leftist view of the world
16:03
which is there are no eternal truths.
16:05
There is no eternity at all.
16:06
There's only the here and now
16:08
and everything is a social construct.
16:10
I mean, there's nothing permanent.
16:11
It's all just made up as we go along
16:13
and that includes male and female.
16:16
So those aren't real and if you think they are real,
16:19
you're deluded and oppressive
16:20
and this is where we get to the patriarchy point.
16:22
If you're a man and you say, wait a minute,
16:23
no, there is such a thing as male and female,
16:25
they say you're an oppressive part of the patriarchy.
16:28
If you're a woman, then they say,
16:30
you're alienated from your true consciousness or whatever
16:33
and the message is at the end of the day
16:36
that we ought to just do as we're told
16:38
that when they tell us that there's no such thing
16:40
as men and women or when they tell us
16:42
that biological men ought to be playing women's sports
16:45
or ought to be in women's locker rooms,
16:46
we're just supposed to go along with that.
16:48
And my answer to that is that you are totally out of touch
16:50
with reality.
16:52
If you believe that and it's time to say,
16:53
hard no, there is such a thing as male and female.
16:56
There are eternal truths and we have to stand up for them.
16:59
- So literally, just this morning,
17:01
we have a section of our show called The Forging Table
17:04
and so The Forging Table is every Sunday,
17:06
me and a group of guys, we get together,
17:08
we're all laymen, none of us are pastors
17:09
or professional Christians
17:11
and we just go through books of the Bible.
17:13
So it's basically a men's Bible study
17:14
and I just happened to put some microphones up
17:16
and hit record and here in a minute,
17:18
we're gonna do a couple of proverbs.
17:20
So this morning I was reviewing Proverbs 1, all right?
17:23
So the kickoff to this wisdom literature
17:26
and Proverbs 1 is soaking in its description
17:30
of fools and simple people.
17:32
And by simple people, we don't mean people
17:34
that like vanilla ice cream and whittling a stick
17:36
on their porch.
17:37
We literally mean people that are simple-minded,
17:39
that are almost impenetrable with the truth.
17:42
And so I'm kind of stuck, Josh,
17:44
a little bit between wanting to yank these people
17:47
to the right side and to be like,
17:49
shake their ears until it's like be logical, you weirdo.
17:52
And there's another part of me that's like,
17:54
hey, this is pearls before swine.
17:56
Like there's just going to be people like that in the world.
17:58
So I just, do I throw my hands up and do nothing?
18:02
- Oh no, we can't do that.
18:03
We can't afford to throw our hands up and do nothing girl.
18:05
So we're going to end up with our kids being taught
18:09
that the gender that God has made them is wrong,
18:11
that they need to take drugs that will sterilize them.
18:13
We're going to end up with our girls
18:15
not able to play sports
18:16
'cause they won't exist any longer for girls.
18:18
I think I would just say that particularly Christians
18:20
out there, if you think that, hey,
18:22
if I just go to church, I'm in a nice person
18:24
and keep my beliefs inside the church
18:27
and keep to myself, they'll be nice to me
18:29
and won't hurt me, you're very wrong.
18:31
You're totally wrong.
18:32
I wish that were true, that's not true.
18:34
What the left wants,
18:35
what the radical sort of atheistic agenda wants
18:38
in our society is to eradicate all of the influence
18:42
of the Bible.
18:43
They want to totally dominate this new,
18:46
frankly, Marxist, cultural Marxist agenda.
18:48
They want to impose that as a new religion
18:50
on the whole of our society and they're not going to stop.
18:53
I mean, that's why there's such a radical push,
18:55
whether it's the transgender movement or CRT
18:58
or whatever the latest sort of Marxist cultural thing is.
19:02
It's an alternate religion that they are pushing
19:04
and they want to use government to push
19:05
and we just have a point where, listen,
19:07
it's our obligation to stand up for the truth.
19:09
That's my view, you don't have to be harsh about it,
19:12
although sometimes you do have to be a little harsh
19:16
to get your point heard, but we've got to be willing, I think,
19:19
to stand up for the truth and to say, this is right,
19:22
this is wrong, this is real, this is false,
19:25
and you can call me whatever name you want,
19:27
but I'm not gonna be moved off of that.
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20:00
Well, I was hoping my question was gonna set you up
20:02
for an easy spike and thank goodness you spiked it down
20:05
because I tell that to my audience all the time
20:07
because I run into Christians
20:08
that kind of fit a couple of different categories.
20:10
You have to kind of the Benedict option,
20:11
Christians that are like, you know what,
20:13
we're just, we're not supposed to be parts of this world,
20:15
like we're fish on land, like we just need to take ourselves
20:18
out of it, at which point you have to ask,
20:20
you know, if you're not a preservative,
20:22
if you're not preserving the culture,
20:23
how can you be salt and light
20:24
'cause salt's a preservative anyway?
20:26
But then the other side is the,
20:28
I wanna be known for what I'm for,
20:30
not what I'm against, Christians.
20:32
And these are people that apparently don't know
20:33
how words work because if you say that you are for something,
20:36
you are automatically simultaneously communicating
20:38
that you are against other things.
20:40
Like if I am for protecting unborn babies in the womb,
20:43
I am against sucking them out
20:45
with a vacuum tube and pieces.
20:46
And so like, do you feel like Christians,
20:49
I mean, I guess you could make a more broader category
20:52
of conservative Christians, do you feel like they're doing,
20:56
doing the work of actually pushing back now?
20:59
Do you feel like they've been pushed
21:00
and pushed and pushed for so long
21:02
that they're finally starting to fight back a little bit?
21:04
'Cause that's the sense I get.
21:05
- I do too.
21:06
I think that's right.
21:07
I think that's certainly true for Christians
21:10
who are living their lives.
21:11
You know, moms and dads out there
21:12
who have just finally had enough.
21:14
And listen, I think there's a real sense
21:15
that as believers, our obligation is to witness
21:19
to the Lord in every sphere of life in which He's called us.
21:22
So you just think for a second, for those who are like,
21:24
well, politics doesn't matter or that's kind of a mess
21:28
or the business world, like that's outside of the church.
21:31
So what are we saying?
21:32
Are we saying that Jesus is not Lord
21:34
in the sphere of government?
21:36
Are we saying that Jesus is not Lord
21:37
over the sphere of business and commerce?
21:39
Are we saying that Jesus is only Lord
21:41
within this little building
21:42
that we go to on Sundays and Wednesday nights?
21:44
That's not, find that for me in the Bible.
21:47
You won't find that anywhere.
21:48
So I think we've got to recover as Christians
21:51
since that God is Lord, Jesus is Lord over every sphere of life.
21:55
And therefore, we have an obligation to witness to Him
21:58
in every sphere of life.
22:00
And to do that, especially when it costs us
22:02
and we're living in a moment now where, yeah,
22:04
if you take a stand and say, no, actually,
22:07
I think there is such a thing as male and female,
22:09
or you say, no, I don't want biological boys
22:12
in my girl's locker room, it might cost you something.
22:15
It's sad that that's the case, but that is the case.
22:17
But hey, it is a great and noble thing
22:21
to be willing to pay something
22:23
and to have to pay something in defense
22:24
of the gospel and of truth.
22:25
And that's the time we're at now.
22:27
- Well, I would certainly agree with that.
22:28
And I forget who said it,
22:29
'cause I saw it here in the last couple of weeks,
22:31
but to the Benedict Option Christians
22:33
or the be known for what I'm for,
22:34
not what I'm against Christians, I would ask them,
22:37
so are you okay with only atheists running the government
22:40
or only atheists running your school board
22:42
or only atheists running Fortune 500, Fortune 100,
22:45
Fortune 10 companies?
22:46
Because that's when it's like, oh,
22:47
the rubber's meeting the road now
22:49
and your question just made me uncomfortable.
22:50
It's like, yeah, that was the whole point.
22:52
So section one of the book or part one of the book
22:54
really does set up section two,
22:56
because part two, you list six identities
23:00
or virtues that men should be or strive for.
23:04
And that's husband, father, warrior, builder, priest, and king.
23:09
Now, I have questions prepared for each one of those,
23:12
but I'm feeling generous today, okay?
23:15
I'm gonna actually let you choose
23:16
which ones we talk about or at least the order
23:18
that we talk about them in.
23:20
We may hit them all, we may not.
23:22
So which one do you wanna discuss first?
23:23
- Well, let's start with husband.
23:25
And the reason is A, it's first in the book,
23:28
but also I think that for young men,
23:30
one of the most important messages that they can hear
23:33
that is directly contrary to what they're being told
23:35
now in the culture is, that it is a wonderful thing
23:38
to be married and have a family.
23:40
And that's something you should aspire to.
23:41
It's not like second best.
23:42
It's not, oh, delay that as long as you can.
23:44
If you wanna leave a legacy in this life
23:46
and you should, you should want to.
23:48
If you wanna do that, the best thing you can do,
23:51
besides following Christ with all of your heart,
23:53
mind, strength, and soul, is get married and have a family.
23:56
So maybe let's start there.
23:58
- Yeah, let's start with husband
23:59
because I got married when I was 22,
24:01
but my wife and I didn't have kids for 11 years.
24:03
And so we have two sons right now,
24:04
a three-year-old named James and a one-year-old named Elijah.
24:08
But part of the reason why there's this problem
24:12
with what you just described is another thing
24:14
that you mentioned earlier in the interview, Josh,
24:16
and that's trading the real thing for porn and video games.
24:20
Because in video games, I'm the master of my universe.
24:25
Like I've prestige five times in Call of Duty,
24:27
or I've won 17 seasons in a row on Madden
24:30
or whatever the game is that you're playing.
24:32
So you don't have to dominate in the real world
24:34
because you can dominate with your thumbs.
24:36
And then you can act like a real hero
24:38
with your pants around your ankles
24:39
while sitting at your computer as opposed to going out
24:42
and asking a young lady if she'd like to go
24:44
with you to coffee or to go to lunch or something like that.
24:47
Talk to me a little bit about,
24:50
I guess how great Satan is at giving you the counterfeit.
24:53
So he's giving you this idea that you're in control
24:56
by playing video games.
24:57
He's also giving you the idea that you're the man
24:59
by showing you porn and what it's causing you to do
25:02
is push off the true and difficult path of being a husband.
25:06
- I think that my basic message in the book or one of them is
25:09
is that the journey to manhood, the full manhood,
25:11
to biblical manhood is the journey of character.
25:14
And that means forging your character.
25:16
It means acquiring these virtues of soul.
25:19
And that's hard work.
25:19
But you know what, anything that is worth doing
25:22
is going to be hard and that's for sure true
25:24
of acquiring the character of a husband,
25:26
becoming someone who can make a commitment and can keep it,
25:29
becoming someone who is willing to sacrifice his life
25:32
for the good of others.
25:33
And the problem with the things you just mentioned,
25:35
video games and porn, let's take the second one
25:38
in particular is, yeah, it just deals an unreality.
25:40
I mean, the porn industry sells its product
25:43
as like supposedly the ultimate example of masculinity.
25:46
You're never more a man than when you're using their product.
25:49
But in fact, what all of the data shows,
25:51
and there's now a lot of it, what it shows is,
25:53
is that porn usage, especially in any kind of quantity,
25:57
makes men less confident, it makes men less outgoing,
26:00
it makes them less likely to go out and ask a real woman
26:03
on a date, it makes them less able to form relationships
26:05
and keep them.
26:06
So the truth is, is that it works in your soul
26:09
in a corrosive fashion, it does just the opposite
26:13
of what really, of what true risk taking would look like.
26:17
And I guess I would just hone in on this,
26:19
is that a key part of being willing to be a husband
26:23
and to form the character of a husband
26:25
is willing to put yourself out there and take a risk.
26:28
And that's what you do when you go ask a real woman
26:29
on a date, you risk that she may say no to you,
26:32
she may reject you, that's what you do throughout your marriage,
26:34
when you sacrifice and put your wife first,
26:36
that's gonna hurt, there's gonna be conflict,
26:38
there's gonna be difficulty.
26:40
Hey, guess what, that's life.
26:42
But being willing to risk yourself and face it
26:45
is how you form that character and continue to grow
26:47
into manhood and you can't do that
26:49
if you're sitting in front of a computer screen
26:50
in your basement.
26:51
♪ Ooh, that face, quantum fiber internet loves that face ♪
26:55
♪ That's Jamele ♪
26:56
♪ Hey, Jamele ♪
26:57
♪ She's thinking outside the box from inside the box ♪
27:00
♪ One and five her wife, I keeps her meeting game strong ♪
27:02
♪ From the back door to the front lawn ♪
27:04
♪ Russian, all of the video calls ♪
27:06
♪ Back to back to back video calls ♪
27:09
♪ One and five her internet blowin' the taxis ♪
27:11
♪ Upon those people in all those boxes ♪
27:13
♪ The AGU ♪
27:15
- Switch today at quantumfiber.com.
27:17
Additional pods may be needed to achieve
27:18
Wi-Fi coverage in some locations,
27:19
limited availability, service and select locations only.
27:22
- Well, and the same thing is if you don't take the chance,
27:24
you're losing out on an opportunity to build resilience.
27:26
We talk about building spiritual, mental and physical
27:28
resilience on a daily basis.
27:30
That's the ability to bounce back.
27:31
So if you get told no, all right,
27:33
well, go back to the drawing board.
27:35
Maybe you gotta do something else or no, no, no, no.
27:36
This girl, she's something special.
27:38
I need to ask her again, but do it better.
27:40
Like you, you're missing out on that opportunity,
27:41
but also with pornography in particular.
27:44
Probably the most nefarious thing,
27:45
and I just talked to a father of three kids yesterday
27:48
about this in his son's getting to that age,
27:49
where you really gotta start checkin' the phones
27:51
and checkin' everything else.
27:52
But it's the scripting that children learn,
27:55
because when I was a little kid,
27:56
the first porn I was exposed to was still images
27:59
on a magazine hidden in my buddy's closet.
28:01
And now it's in elementary school,
28:03
they're seeing hardcore, violent rape porn,
28:07
and the girls that are watching it are thinking,
28:09
oh, this is what I'm supposed to enjoy,
28:11
and the boys that are watching it are like,
28:13
oh, this is what she's gonna want me to do.
28:16
And so there's an nefarious thing,
28:17
but the scripting that happens,
28:19
and I don't necessarily need you to comment on that,
28:21
but I did just wanna point that out
28:22
that that is something additional.
28:24
So we described husband, let's go in and go into father.
28:26
So I'm gonna take the reins away from you,
28:28
but don't worry, I'll give him back,
28:29
because I think those two are very much in tight,
28:33
not contention, but that they shouldn't be anyway.
28:36
But you pointed something out earlier in this interview,
28:38
but also in the book, that never really occurred to me,
28:41
and it's like, well, duh, of course that's the reality,
28:44
but the United States has the highest rate
28:46
of children living in single-parent households in the world,
28:50
and no, guys, that's not mainly living with dads,
28:52
single dads, it's mainly with single mothers.
28:55
So talk to me a little bit about that,
28:57
because you do have these people
28:58
that never wanna get married,
29:00
because they don't wanna potentially get married
29:02
and have to give away half their stuff
29:03
to some woman somewhere down the line,
29:05
or they wanna be as far away from kids as possible.
29:08
I know of men that are single,
29:10
that have gotten vasectomies,
29:11
so that they don't accidentally get a girl pregnant
29:14
and have to marry her and have to deal with the kid
29:16
and pay for the kid and all those types of things.
29:18
But the epidemic of fatherlessness,
29:21
I think most of our issues as a country
29:24
and as a people group can go back to the fact
29:27
that in every racial group except for Asians,
29:29
for the last 50 years,
29:31
fatherlessness has gone through the roof
29:33
and it doesn't seem like it's stopping.
29:35
- No, that's exactly right.
29:36
And you look at what comes along with that,
29:38
look what comes with the fatherlessness.
29:40
It is huge increases in crime, especially for young men.
29:43
It is huge increases in abuse,
29:45
especially toward young women.
29:47
It is huge increases in mental health,
29:49
depression, and suicide.
29:51
So I often say, hey, you wanna address the problem
29:54
of childhood poverty in America put dads back into the homes.
29:57
I mean, the data is just really clear on this.
29:59
The poverty rate among two parent families
30:01
where dad is present and working and contributing,
30:04
the poverty rate is extremely low.
30:06
That doesn't mean something to me, the rich.
30:07
It just means that you put a dad in there
30:10
who's actually providing for his family
30:12
that he has helped to create
30:13
and it is amazing what that does to alleviate poverty.
30:16
On the other hand, take a dad out of the equation
30:18
and you get all of these other dysfunctions.
30:20
So I think it's absolutely critical,
30:22
just from a social point of view,
30:23
but I just say this to the men who's like,
30:25
I don't wanna deal with kids, it's a hassle.
30:28
They're gonna take over my life.
30:31
Listen, it's no mistake that if you look at the story
30:34
of the Bible, when God decides he's going to change the world,
30:38
he's gonna fix the problem of sin and darkness
30:40
and evil in the world.
30:41
Genesis chapter 12, what does he do?
30:43
He calls Abraham, what does he call Abraham to do
30:45
to become a father?
30:47
Now think about that.
30:48
He could have done any number of things.
30:50
He doesn't call him to become a warrior,
30:51
though he will be that.
30:52
He doesn't call him to go out and start a company,
30:54
though Abraham is gonna be very prosperous,
30:56
it turns out very good at business.
30:58
But foundationally, God says to him,
31:00
you're going to be a father.
31:03
Now there's something about that
31:04
that I think men should take note of.
31:07
Something about investing your life in somebody else's
31:10
and making somebody else the center and focus of your life,
31:13
not yourself, that is profoundly, profoundly fulfilling,
31:18
liberating and also biblical.
31:19
And I think that we should embrace that reality.
31:22
One, I think the way you described in the book was you're,
31:25
as a father, you're trying to replace yourself.
31:28
And so, you know, if you've read any business book
31:30
or gone to business school,
31:31
like the very first day of the first class
31:33
they're talking about, hey, if you're a mid-level manager,
31:35
before you can get that next promotion,
31:37
you need to prepare a couple of your underlings
31:39
to be able to replace you
31:40
so that you can more easily ascend the ladder.
31:42
Well, the same thing happens within your small village
31:45
or household, which is you're trying to replace the things
31:48
that you've done by setting a foundation of morality,
31:50
perhaps financially, those types of things.
31:53
So I'm looking at the clock here
31:54
and we've got four things left
31:55
and we only probably have time to probably hit two of those
31:57
'cause I have a couple other questions.
31:58
So you get to choose Warrior Builder Priest King.
32:01
Give me the next one.
32:02
Well, I feel like we gotta talk about Warrior
32:04
because that's so central to what you do and to your focus
32:08
in terms of pushing back the darkness.
32:09
So let's talk about that.
32:10
So specifically within that,
32:12
and guys, this is probably a good time for me to mention,
32:14
we are barely scratching the surface on this book.
32:17
And you guys know that I've read a myriad
32:19
of men's books and the manhood
32:22
and this is how you're supposed to do it.
32:23
Most of them are just nonsense.
32:25
This is not one of those.
32:26
This is when you need to pick up,
32:27
it is in the show notes, do your duty, okay?
32:29
But the thing about that chapter
32:31
that almost made my skin crawl,
32:33
because I, this is probably gonna come as a shock to you,
32:36
but I was a fairly loud and bombastic and energetic kid,
32:40
but my parents never even once even considered
32:45
putting me on any type of medication.
32:47
If our teachers were having problems with me
32:48
because I was a knucklehead.
32:49
I wasn't setting things on fire.
32:51
I was trying to make people laugh.
32:52
They're like, look, we're not gonna drug our kid
32:54
because you suck at your job.
32:55
This is essentially what they told our teachers.
32:57
But right now in 2023, we drug the warrior
33:02
out of our young men because we're like,
33:04
oh, you have ADD or you have ADHD.
33:06
Otherwise known as being a boy.
33:08
And they're like, here's this little pill that,
33:10
oh, it's no big deal.
33:11
It's a brain altering drug,
33:12
even though we haven't done a brain scan
33:14
to see if your boy even needs it.
33:16
And then we expect these young men
33:18
by the time they're 18, 19 or 20
33:20
to potentially go and fight and die for our country.
33:22
And then you look at the back end
33:24
and you see all of these military agencies
33:27
and these branches of the military
33:28
that are so far behind on their recruiting.
33:30
There are a lot of reasons for that.
33:32
But one of the reasons is that our boys are too fat,
33:34
too out of shape and too sick
33:36
to even go into the military and get through basic training.
33:39
So you can take that wherever you wanna go with it
33:41
'cause you talked about all those things in that chapter.
33:43
So fire away.
33:45
- I think one of the reasons that we see
33:48
so many of the professional class,
33:50
the professional educators,
33:51
it's usually the bureaucrats actually in the left.
33:54
Why they want to drug boys
33:57
and they want to suppress the boishness
33:59
is because they don't really believe
34:00
in the reality of evil anymore.
34:02
Here's what I mean by that.
34:03
If you think that there really is evil in the world,
34:06
if you think there really are dangers
34:08
that have to be faced,
34:09
then you look at that boy who's got all of that energy
34:12
and all of that ambition,
34:13
and let's just call it for what it is,
34:14
all that aggressiveness.
34:15
You look at that and you think,
34:16
that's gonna save lives one day.
34:18
That guy's gonna go out and stand on the line.
34:21
Or even if he's not gonna be a soldier professionally,
34:23
that guy's gonna be willing to put himself at risk
34:25
to help other people in ways large and small.
34:28
And you look at that, you think, man,
34:30
there's something I've got to channel.
34:31
I don't wanna suppress that.
34:32
I wanna nurture it, I wanna channel it.
34:34
But I think today in our dominant culture,
34:38
we're told not evil, there's no such thing.
34:40
The only thing it's evil is capitalism.
34:42
The only thing that's evil is American history.
34:44
That's what's evil.
34:46
People are inherently good.
34:47
And so this rambunctious kid, you gotta settle him down.
34:50
He's disrupting stuff.
34:51
He's making it hard for you to do your job, just drug him.
34:53
I think we've gotten completely backwards.
34:55
And what we've gotta do for our young men,
34:57
our boys is say, listen,
34:59
God made you that way for an incredible purpose.
35:01
Part of your job is to push back evil.
35:04
And you're beginning in your own heart, by the way.
35:06
And then your family and in your community,
35:09
you were born to do that.
35:10
So we gotta take that aggression and that ambition
35:12
and that drive and we gotta push it and forge it
35:15
and nurture it.
35:18
So it can be that kind of positive force
35:20
that is willing to confront the darkness.
35:22
- I can't say anything back to that, aside from amen.
35:25
So we get one more and you get three choices.
35:27
So you wanna talk about builder, priest or king.
35:30
- Let's talk about priest.
35:30
'Cause I think that one is one,
35:32
a lot of guys would look at it.
35:33
And it's like, huh, that seems unusual to me.
35:35
- Well, let's look at this quote from that section.
35:37
Here lies the deeper meaning of the statement
35:40
we first encountered in Genesis
35:42
that God made man quote in his own image, unquote.
35:45
That means to do something certainly
35:47
as we have seen to husband, to father,
35:50
to fight and build, to rule.
35:52
But it also means more fundamentally
35:54
to become someone, a man of a certain kind of character,
35:58
a man who reflects God, a man whom God knows.
36:02
So why does that man need to be known by God, Josh?
36:04
- Here's the deal I think that is the fundamental,
36:09
fundamental baseline call of manhood.
36:12
It is to reflect the image of God.
36:15
And you talk about a high calling.
36:17
There's no higher calling available in the world
36:20
than to think that the creator put me here
36:24
and he wants me to reflect him into the rest of the world.
36:29
To the point that he wants to use me
36:31
to accomplish his purposes in the world.
36:33
And I just wanna say this,
36:35
this is one of the reasons I wanna talk about priests.
36:36
I just wanna say this to every guy out there
36:38
is that there are things God will do through you,
36:41
through your work, through your fathering,
36:43
through your marriage, through your coaching,
36:46
that he will not do through anybody else.
36:49
You have a unique destiny that's on your life.
36:51
And that's part of the incredible privilege
36:53
but also responsibility of being someone
36:56
who God made in his own image
36:57
and is supposed to take that image of God out in the world.
37:00
Which is that if you don't do that, there'll be real loss.
37:03
If you don't do that, people's lives around you
37:06
will be different than they could have been
37:07
and the world will be different, unless then it could have been.
37:10
So I think that's an incredibly high calling
37:13
that men need to hear today
37:14
is that they're made to bring God's image,
37:17
God's very presence with them out into the world.
37:21
And boy, that is an incredible purpose
37:23
and incredibly high calling.
37:25
- Well, if not you, then who, if not now, then when?
37:28
Most men are just looking around waiting for some sheep
37:30
dog to come in and save them or waiting for the government
37:32
to come and take care of them and change their diapers.
37:34
And it's like, at the end of the day,
37:36
you might wanna look internally
37:37
before you look at all the external
37:38
or extrinsic forces that are happening in the world.
37:41
Now, Josh, we've had a lot of fun.
37:43
These last 30 minutes or so.
37:45
But I'm actually kind of mad at you.
37:46
Do you wanna know why?
37:47
- Okay, tell me why.
37:49
- Okay, you spend the entire book
37:51
talking about how the Bible lays out, you know,
37:53
a clean roadmap for moral masculinity.
37:56
You do a great job.
37:57
You talk about Adam and Abraham and David and Solomon.
38:00
Solomon, and here I am.
38:03
I'm getting all excited.
38:04
You've been setting it up.
38:05
You've been setting it up. You've been setting it up.
38:07
And then the book just ends.
38:08
And you don't even mention Jesus of Nazareth
38:12
as the perfect model of manhood.
38:14
And in fact, I counted it,
38:15
you only mention the name of Jesus eight times in the book.
38:19
And five of those were actually in an excerpt
38:21
that you pulled from one of Blaze Pascal's writings.
38:23
And so it's like, wait a minute.
38:24
You technically only mentioned Jesus three times.
38:27
I know you've gotten this criticism before,
38:29
but it was like, all right,
38:30
you were all about the Old Testament
38:32
and I was just waiting for you to just hit the ball off the tee.
38:35
And you didn't.
38:36
So my benefit of the doubt here is,
38:38
is there a manhood part two around the corner
38:40
that you're just lying to us about yet?
38:42
Or is this just really how you wanted to end it?
38:44
- No, I think that, well, here's the thing I would say
38:47
that I say both at the beginning and at the end of the book
38:49
is that there's only one ultimate man capital M.
38:54
And that is Jesus Christ.
38:56
And for Christians, we know that the story
38:59
really begins and ends with him, right?
39:01
Because it's not just that Jesus comes on the scene
39:03
at the end, it's that we are created
39:04
in his image to begin with.
39:06
So we are all men, including Adam,
39:09
actually in the image of Christ.
39:10
And we see Christ bringing that mission,
39:13
the mission of Adam to fruition in the end.
39:16
But the other reason I wrote the book as I did
39:17
is that I wanted people who don't consider themselves
39:21
to be Christians, who don't know the Lord,
39:23
who maybe don't consider themselves believers of any kind
39:26
to be able to pick up the book and say,
39:27
okay, I'm kind of drawn in by this and I'm curious.
39:30
And then they get to the end and they're like,
39:32
wait a minute, I wanna know more.
39:34
Like who is this as I leave it at the end
39:37
talking about the one perfect man, who is that man?
39:41
What does that mean for my life?
39:42
I wanted to leave them leaning forward into that.
39:46
So maybe I'll just have to write another book.
39:48
- Okay, and if you write the other one,
39:49
just send it to me before you release it.
39:51
And all of course, just mark it all up and improve it.
39:53
I'll do what I can, okay?
39:55
But I don't want your staff to get mad at me.
39:56
So we'll make this the last question of the day.
39:59
So in the book, and obviously you write the book
40:01
about what you wanna write about,
40:02
you're not writing it about
40:03
what you don't wanna write about it.
40:04
But there was almost no mention whatsoever
40:07
of the paltry state of masculinity inside the church today.
40:12
You rightfully point out how the Epicurean society
40:15
that we're living in fights against masculinity
40:17
in all of its forms, but you don't address
40:19
how the church is not teaching boys how to become God
40:23
honoring men either, how men aren't being discipled
40:27
so that they're not, and they don't even feel capable
40:29
to catechize their families in the ways of God
40:32
and those types of things.
40:33
And that's part of why I'm here on this planet
40:35
is not to teach churches how to build men's ministries.
40:38
Men's ministries just put on one event per year
40:41
where they bring in an ex-football player to come and speak
40:44
and say, "Well, I used to chase women and do coke,
40:46
"but now I love Jesus."
40:48
And then they eat a bunch of meat and go home.
40:50
I wanna teach churches to be man friendly,
40:52
where from the moment a guy walks in,
40:54
whether he was a tier one operator
40:56
or just got off of an oil rig or something like that,
40:58
he walks in and goes, "Hey, I think this place is for me."
41:01
That music isn't a key I can actually sing.
41:03
These men around here look a little rougher
41:05
than the doughy men I grew up with,
41:07
but I guess just talk to me about the state of masculinity
41:10
in the church 'cause I feel like most people
41:12
had this dichotomy that I did when I was younger,
41:14
that all the godly men are inside the church doing,
41:17
God stuff and all the manly men are outside
41:19
the church doing man stuff.
41:21
- Yeah, I think that one of the reasons for that,
41:23
I agree with that assessment.
41:25
And I think just statistically, you look at evangelical
41:28
Christianity in America and it is very female dominated.
41:31
On the one hand, it's like, "Hey, praise the Lord.
41:33
"I'm glad there's so many women who are in church
41:35
"and wanna get their families to church,
41:36
"but you do have to ask where the men."
41:39
And I do think that part of the reason for that is,
41:41
is that men don't often hear from the pulpit.
41:44
Sermons and messages and teaching
41:48
that is directly relevant to them and challenges them
41:51
and calls them to be the men that they're meant to be.
41:53
I mean, it just, it is not directed towards
41:55
that kind of vision and purpose.
41:56
And I would just say this, I mean,
41:58
I think that there's no mistake that the proverb says
42:03
that without a vision, the people perish, right?
42:06
I mean, without a vision, without a sense of purpose,
42:09
men in this country right now are perishing.
42:12
And so the church is the place where above all,
42:15
we should be supplying that purpose, that vision,
42:18
that calling.
42:19
So I'm glad you're doing what you're doing in your ministry.
42:21
I'm not a pastor, I'm not, I wouldn't give any advice
42:25
to pastors how to run their church,
42:26
other than that, I would just hope they will preach
42:28
the gospel in all of its fullness.
42:30
And part of that is, is giving them in a vision
42:32
for their lives as men and helping them to see
42:34
that God calls them as men and wants to use them
42:37
in every sphere of their life as men,
42:39
as fathers, as husbands and their work,
42:42
in their business and their mentoring,
42:44
and that he's got an incredible plan and destiny for them.
42:46
I think if you preach that and see that,
42:48
you'll see men respond to it.
42:50
- Well, I'm not a pastor either,
42:51
but I have no problems giving pastors advice.
42:53
And my advice to some of them would be,
42:54
the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all knowledge.
42:56
That's Proverbs one as well.
42:58
When you talk about boyfriend Jesus,
43:00
or you talk about cute and cuddly lamb of God,
43:02
and you ignore justice, and you ignore the lion of Judah,
43:04
and you ignore judgment,
43:05
you're only giving your congregation part of the picture.
43:08
And so I think that that's a good thing
43:09
for everyone to consider.
43:10
But we're up against time here.
43:12
We've talked about everything again, guys.
43:13
The book is manhood, the masculine virtues, American needs.
43:16
But that's all for me.
43:17
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
43:19
- No, not at all.
43:20
Thank you for having me.
43:21
- All right, Josh Hawley.
43:22
Thank you for coming on "On Daunt to Life" a man's podcast.
43:25
- Thanks so much.
43:26
- All right, guys.
43:27
I hope you enjoyed my time with Senator Josh Hawley.
43:29
But before we let you go,
43:29
we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
43:31
Add on Daunt to Life.
43:32
Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness
43:34
with content that forges spiritual, mental,
43:36
and physical resilience.
43:37
So I've got a couple of links for you today.
43:39
I've got a link to his personal website,
43:41
and also a link to where you can pick up
43:42
this manhood book.
43:43
Guys, it is well worth your time and worth your effort.
43:45
Go ahead and pick it up.
43:46
It's right there in the show notes.
43:48
Thank you, guys, for listening to this episode.
43:49
Wherever you're listening to this,
43:50
please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five star
43:52
of you.
43:53
If you want to come speak live at your event
43:55
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43:56
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43:58
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44:01
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44:02
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44:04
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44:05
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44:07
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44:10
Also, we want to thank the band Holy Name
44:11
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44:14
The music on this podcast is our song "Perpetua,"
44:16
which is off their self-titled debut album
44:19
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44:20
The links are in the description.
44:22
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
44:23
Remember, keep pushing back darkness,
44:26
keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
44:30
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
44:33
(upbeat music)