0:00
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
0:23
All right, guys.
0:24
Today, I've got a special guest on the podcast and his name is John Tyson.
0:27
John is a pastor and church planner in New York City and he lives in Hills kitchen neighborhood
0:31
there in Manhattan.
0:32
He's also the lead pastor of church of the city in NYC.
0:35
He's originally from Adelaide, Australia.
0:37
So you'll be able to hear that wonderful accent here in just a second.
0:40
But he moved to the U S over 20 years ago because he wanted to renew the Western church.
0:44
That's capital W capital C. Okay, he's written books such as beautiful resistance, rumors
0:49
of God, sacred roots, a creative minority and the burden is light.
0:53
But we spent almost the entire interview talking about his latest book that came out in August
0:58
of 2021 and it's called the intentional father, a practical guide to raise sons of courage
1:04
and character.
1:05
Guys, this book that I'm holding up right now.
1:07
If you're not watching this on YouTube, you should be this book right here is a wonderful
1:11
guide for men with young boys or even preteen boys, teenage boys that they want to have
1:17
an intentional relationship with their son and usher them into manhood.
1:22
Guys, we live in a culture here in the West, except for, you know, random religious sex
1:26
here and there.
1:27
We live in a culture that does not usher or lead young men into manhood men get to self
1:32
actualize and decide when they're a man.
1:35
Maybe it's the first time they have sex or whenever they leave for college or whenever
1:38
they get their first job, they get to pick that and no one helps them along that journey.
1:43
Dads aren't helping them along, you know, grandparents are extended family.
1:47
The church, their schools, their teams, no one's helping these kids.
1:50
He's giving us a practical guide.
1:52
John is giving us a practical guide for how to do this.
1:55
So this guy for every single day from his son's age 13 until age 18, he did intentional things
2:02
for him to help him grow into a godly, manly man.
2:05
I'm not kidding.
2:06
I mean, he really, really did.
2:08
We didn't get into all the detail in this interview because we only had about an hour
2:11
together.
2:12
But guys, you're definitely going to listen to this even if you don't have sons, if you
2:15
have daughters, there's a lot of wisdom in here and we actually talk about that.
2:18
So what if I just have daughters, but guys, I don't want to keep him from you any longer.
2:22
So without further ado, let's get into it.
2:25
John Tyson, welcome to Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
2:28
Thanks, man.
2:29
What a joy to be here.
2:30
Man, it was even great talking to you, off air.
2:32
We won't tell everybody, you know, all the things we talked about, but we did come up
2:34
with a lot of ways that we can get world peace and other things to sustain the planet.
2:38
So guys, we'll work on it later.
2:39
But as a means of introduction to our audience, for anyone that's not familiar with you, you're
2:43
both a pastor and a church planner in New York City, but you weren't always those things
2:48
and you didn't always live in New York.
2:49
So give us, I guess, the 30,000 foot view version of how you ended up as a pastor and
2:54
a church planner and how you ended up in America.
2:56
Okay.
2:57
Yeah.
2:58
I grew up in Australia, which is where I'm from originally a place called Adelaide, South
3:01
Australia, famous only for its wines.
3:04
That's probably the only reason that people have been there.
3:07
Dropped out of high school at 16 to be a butcher, started working in a meat factory at 14, had
3:13
a great entrepreneurial boss who cast some vision about working as opposed to just doing
3:19
formal education, became a Christian in a radical Pentecostal youth revival at 17, came
3:25
to America at 20 with a scholarship to study theology, met my wife, been married 23 years,
3:32
got two kids, I have a son who's 21, a daughter who's 19, so we're empty nesters now, moved
3:37
to New York 16 years ago and heard about church planting in the early 2000s, had never really
3:46
heard about it.
3:47
It wasn't quite a public trend then and felt like this is why I was put on the planet.
3:51
And so I've been bouncing around in New York doing that ever since.
3:54
The gift of evangelism.
3:56
Now I got to ask you as a butcher, what is the best cut of meat?
3:59
Because there is an answer to that.
4:00
It's not just opinion.
4:01
What is the single...
4:02
It's a bone in ribeye.
4:03
Bone in ribeye.
4:04
That's what I'm talking about.
4:05
You're going to get along great with our audience today.
4:06
But man, I don't want to waste any more time.
4:08
I want to get into the reason why I really wanted to have you on the show.
4:10
And it's this book, The Intentional Father, A Practical Guide to Race, Sons of Courage
4:14
and Character.
4:15
Guys, I'm going to tell you right now, it's in the show notes, pause this.
4:17
If you're driving, pull over to the side of the road, order this book and order the hard
4:20
copy.
4:21
It's gorgeous.
4:22
All right.
4:23
They did a great job with this thing.
4:24
But we're going to go into a lot of the details as to the book here.
4:26
But in the most basic form possible, what is the book about?
4:31
The book is about recovering a lost process to produce healthy men for the good of the
4:38
world.
4:39
That's it.
4:40
And so when you say healthy, so help me a little bit with that, especially right now
4:43
everyone thinks they know about health and they talk about it because they listen to
4:46
Joe Rogan or something like that.
4:47
But when you say healthy, specifically in the idea of masculinity of manhood, what do
4:51
you mean?
4:52
Well, I'm a follower of Jesus.
4:53
And so my conviction is that the greatest man who has ever lived is Jesus.
4:59
Jesus was the perfect combination of compassion and courage.
5:04
He knew how to get every moment right.
5:06
If it required confrontation, he would throw over the tables, make a whip, drive people
5:11
out.
5:12
He would also weep at the death of his friends.
5:14
He was like a fully integrated man, live for something beyond himself, true greatness,
5:20
and had a spirituality and earthliness, understood manual labor, moved in the supernatural.
5:27
I'm trying to raise up people like Jesus.
5:29
So to me, that's the ultimate goal is helping dads have a vision to produce their sons to
5:32
become like crust.
5:33
When I think it's so interesting that you bring, obviously being a pastor, you bring
5:36
Christ in the conversation so early because I'm going to go through several quotes from
5:39
your book.
5:40
But one that struck me very early in the book was actually from the foreword and the foreword
5:43
was written by David Kiniman, who's the president of Barna, who, which is the entity that kind
5:47
of helped get the statistics and research together for the book.
5:50
He said that churches are not helping fathers find a way to usher boys in the manhood.
5:56
And I would say that I agree with this sentiment.
5:58
I've talked about this on my show quite a bit.
6:00
I'm curious as to whether or not you as a pastor, because this is kind of talking about
6:03
yourself a little bit, whether or not you agree with that assessment.
6:06
And then I guess overall, culturally, why are most Western boys not initiated or ushered
6:13
or welcomed into manhood?
6:15
Well, the first part of that question about how the church is doing, the American church,
6:22
the church around the world is so large.
6:23
The American church is so fragmented.
6:26
I would say in sort of mainline evangelical churches, we are failing miserably.
6:32
And what I mean by that is somewhere still around 70% of young people lose their faith
6:37
when they go into college, first year of college.
6:40
If we had a plan that resulted in a 70% failure rate, we would probably change our plan.
6:47
And so my anecdotal and maybe statistically acknowledged evidence is like it's not working.
6:55
I mean, the rates of depression, particularly against young men's sense of aimlessness,
7:00
lack of purpose, lack of confidence, extended adolescence, these are all culturally recognized
7:05
signs.
7:06
And for the most part, there are some differences and meaningful differences, but Christian young
7:13
men struggle with the same issues to a staggeringly large amount.
7:17
So I think the proof is out there.
7:18
I think we're failing because I think a lot of folks are overwhelmed.
7:22
I think a lot of churches don't know what to do with the good of male energy.
7:27
And so they don't know how to channel it in redemptive ways.
7:30
How do you tap into a man's capacity and ambition?
7:32
Well, hey, be a greeter.
7:35
Doesn't feel exactly like how to utilize what it is that a man can do.
7:40
So I think, yeah, I think the culture's overwhelmed us.
7:43
The church hasn't quite known what to do with male strength.
7:48
Faith often can feel very ethereal and disconnected from real life.
7:51
And then there's a bunch of stereotypes out there that I think can produce frustration
7:56
and disillusionment.
7:57
So the church has a lot of work to do.
8:00
And our church, the challenge I have in my church is that you've been in New York City.
8:05
My church is filled with babies and middle aged people.
8:09
I have very, very few teenagers.
8:13
The dads we do have raising teenagers, honestly, are killing it.
8:19
Killing it.
8:20
Great.
8:21
I'm going to be more proud of the fathers in my church, particularly with 10-aged boys.
8:25
I've got dads who have gotten up every single day to pour into their kids since the sun's
8:30
turned 13.
8:32
Dads meeting monthly with a cohort of boys to give them real world training and skills.
8:36
So we've tried to be intentional in our particular community about this and sort of model the
8:41
things that I've written about in the book.
8:42
Obviously, my son grew up in the church and my relationship with him in that process was
8:47
on display as a whole.
8:48
So yeah, there's a lot of work to be done.
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9:23
Well, no, the second place that you basically got to is why do you think most Western boys
9:29
aren't being initiated in a manhood?
9:31
But you talked about some things you touched on stereotypes.
9:33
You touched on a lot of things.
9:34
But in the intro of the book, I think you kind of answer this by using another author's
9:38
words by Ronald Rallheiser, he's a, you know, he's another Christian author.
9:42
He basically put, I'm summarizing here, but he basically asked, do you know what's really
9:45
killing our young people today and the answer that he gives is self-initiation.
9:50
And I think that is such a bad thing because basically we're looking to culture, we're
9:54
looking to dorks on Twitter and idiots on TikTok and we're, we're getting our, our cues
9:58
on manhood from those things as opposed to who we already brought up Christ, who's the
10:02
ultimate model of manhood.
10:04
What is kind of your, your vision or what you see around the issue that is coming from
10:08
this self-initiation?
10:10
Well, it's, it's happening.
10:12
It's a God-designed process somewhere in the early, early adolescence, whether that's,
10:18
you know, between 10 or 13, maybe a little later, you begin to undergo very, very real
10:23
changes.
10:24
There's a huge, like, wash of testosterone begins to develop at a disproportionate rate.
10:30
All of a sudden you view reality differently, you're becoming more competitive, you're interested
10:35
in the opposite sex.
10:37
All of these, it feels like you've inherited a different world.
10:40
So you've got all of these confusing, potent energies and you're trying to figure out
10:46
what to do with it.
10:47
It's a very, very confusing time.
10:49
A man will go outside of him.
10:52
These energies are directed externally.
10:54
They must find expression because they're designed by God to find expression.
11:00
And without wise, compassionate guides, understanding guides to get us through that, people will
11:05
self-initiate.
11:07
And we see this all the time, we see people self-initiating with their sexuality, self-initiating
11:12
with violence, self-initiating with energy, self-initiating with money, or failure to
11:17
initiate, which is then, you know, what forms it's an unformed man.
11:22
And so I think this is one of the Christian advantages that we have.
11:29
This is, I forget that, it's something we can offer to the world as a whole, reclaiming
11:35
this ancient process and then normalizing it in our communities.
11:40
The number one feedback I got, like again, my son's about to turn 22, so this was almost
11:45
a decade ago, the number one piece of feedback I got from people around me was how do I get
11:51
help doing what you're doing with your son?
11:54
It was such a point of attraction for other men.
11:59
And my conviction is every dad at the core of his being has a desire to be a good father.
12:04
Most of them feel overwhelmed either with personal brokenness or a lack of knowledge
12:09
to know what to do because they never experienced it themselves.
12:12
And so I think recovering this process and offering it to others is a huge thing that
12:15
Christians can bring to the table.
12:17
What it leads to, John, is you have these young men that are in the church that don't
12:21
really see a place for themselves and then they grow up to be men who leave the church
12:25
because there was no place for them.
12:26
And I told people this, I was on a debate show over in the UK and I'm like, look, if the
12:29
church keeps sending signals that there's nothing for men to do, men will go do something
12:33
else like exactly what you said, they will use their skill sets to do something and it
12:37
might be preparing for fantasy football draft, it might be going to the shooting range, it
12:41
might be going and playing some pickup basketball.
12:43
They're going to do something else, whether it's productive in your mind or not.
12:46
And so the thing that I like about your book is you don't leave a lot to the imagination.
12:51
You spell it out for guys like, hey, here's your roadmap if you want to use it.
12:54
So the book other than the intro is broken up into four main sections.
12:57
It's preparation, initiation, formation, recognition.
13:02
And then in the introduction, I think it's great to at least mention this, you talked
13:04
about five types of fathers.
13:06
And I think just even as I talk about these fathers, guys will be able to self categorize,
13:10
but there's the irresponsible father, the ignorant father, the inconsistent father,
13:14
the involved father, but then there's the intentional father, which is what you're trying
13:18
to train all these people to be.
13:20
But I do want to go in and get into the first main section, which is preparation.
13:23
You brought up four questions that I thought were amazing that to be honest with you, Johnson's,
13:26
I read them have almost been haunting me because I have an 18 month year old son and another
13:30
son Lord willing on the way here very soon.
13:32
And the four questions were, what do you want your son to know about God, about himself
13:37
and about life?
13:38
Who do you want your son to be?
13:40
What skills do you want your son to have?
13:42
And what formational experiences do you want him to have?
13:46
So you could have asked a million questions and I'm not going to have, have you respond
13:50
to all of them as you can kind of pick and choose, but why are those kind of the four
13:53
core questions that dad should really reckon with?
13:55
Well, I mean, I felt like this, there's probably a hundred helpful questions, but particularly
14:02
because young people, young teenagers in particular, they're so malleable, they're so
14:08
shapeable, they're developing their values, they're developing their worldview.
14:13
And so I just found myself when I was meditating like, what are the essential characters for
14:18
my own son?
14:20
I want to make sure I deposit in him.
14:21
It was basically, I want him to have character, I want him to know, I want him to be a man
14:26
of wisdom, I want him to have skills and then I want to create circumstances that actually
14:31
facilitate this.
14:32
So it's not all head knowledge.
14:34
Somebody on Twitter, I think put out and said, hey, do you know that this is like identical
14:38
to like the Army Rangers process of formation?
14:42
And I was like, no, I've never even heard that.
14:43
But apparently it's the same sort of thing.
14:45
It's about character.
14:46
It's about skill.
14:48
It's about wisdom knowing the right things that need to happen.
14:51
So I would think where do most young men feel overwhelmed?
14:54
It's like they don't know who to be.
14:57
They don't know what to do.
14:59
And if we can create sort of conscious environments that draw them out, safe places to fail to
15:05
question, to experiment, to learn to grow, I think that when they head out into the world,
15:10
we're going to have people who are formed in the right places.
15:13
And you can build a thousand beautiful things on top of the right foundation.
15:18
But with the wrong foundation, nothing's going to last.
15:20
Yeah.
15:21
It's certainly not going to last.
15:22
And there's going to be nothing for them to give on to the next side.
15:25
So that's the thing that I found really amazing about this is if you think about it, if you
15:28
had woundedness, which you brought up earlier, you're going to carry that woundiness on even
15:32
if you don't want to, even if you're not aware of it.
15:34
And so imagine if you're carrying around generational woundiness, that becomes a major issue, not
15:38
just for your sons, but for the rest of your progeny.
15:40
But then you move on from that section, then we really start getting into the meat of how
15:44
to do this.
15:45
It's about an initiation, the initiation phase, if you will.
15:48
And in this section, you talk about something that I've never heard of before.
15:51
And it's called the severing dinner.
15:53
Okay.
15:54
And that's the most controversial part of anything I talk about.
15:59
Yeah.
16:00
All right.
16:01
So I'm going to summarize what I think about it.
16:02
Then you can correct the record.
16:03
But a severing dinner is basically where you send your son, 13 years old out with mom.
16:06
They do a dinner.
16:07
Mom, you know, says all the things she loves about them and all these things.
16:10
But basically explains to the son, your dad is now going to be taking on, or maybe you
16:14
don't say this explicitly, daddy is now the main parent for you.
16:18
Like I've done all I can with you up to this point, but your dad's going to be the main
16:22
figure ahead for you at this point.
16:23
And you know, for the kid, for the son, it's like, maybe they're a little bit confused.
16:27
Maybe it's not as grandiose as a moment, but for mom, for the lioness in the situation.
16:32
I just got to tell you right from the very beginning, John, it struck me as odd.
16:36
It struck me as highly unnecessary.
16:38
And my wife is a legitimate lioness.
16:40
So I'm like, I don't want her to like take the next five years off.
16:42
But I know you put a lot of thought in really philosophy into why you would even want to
16:46
do a severing dinner.
16:47
So you go and give me the reasons why I'm wrong, why it's not weird, why it's not odd.
16:51
Okay.
16:52
So James Hollis, who's a Jungian psychologist, and is probably one of the secret sources
16:56
between Richard Raw's halftime staff, and a lot of on the Rollheiser stuff, says that
17:01
all societies that have ever existed, almost by divine blueprint have had a six step process
17:06
for raising young men.
17:08
And this is like where I basically built a chunk of my stuff off.
17:11
You said, but the first two steps are interesting.
17:13
The first one is the removal from the childhood environment.
17:17
There has to be a conscious whole life shift where a person knows they're stepping into
17:21
a different season.
17:22
And then the number two, the death of childhood psychology, there has to be a moment when
17:27
the child is shocked.
17:29
And this is why, you know, sort of ancient tribes would sometimes do circumcision at
17:32
13 or whatever, remove from the presence of women, physical change, pain, healing, belonging
17:39
and all the rest of it.
17:40
So you basically knowledge, you need to have these moments where you realize it's not
17:44
just more of the same, but something is radically different.
17:46
Now, my wife is an alpha apex predator.
17:49
I mean, she's an eight on the end of grand.
17:52
She's a super strong woman.
17:54
She's a survivor.
17:55
She's an overcome.
17:56
She's been through hell and she's made it with, you know, with a beautiful countenance.
18:02
But there's something important about a boy knowing that he is entering into a journey
18:09
with a community of men that will be his primary shaping force.
18:12
Now, my wife today may have a better relationship with my son than I do.
18:17
We both have an amazing relationship.
18:20
So I'm not telling moms to take time off, but here's what I've noticed.
18:24
A lot of moms tend to have a default nurturing mechanism, which is, which I will violently
18:33
reduce to, they're there, okay?
18:35
They're there.
18:36
It's really hard.
18:37
They're there and dads tend to have a pushing mechanism, which is level up.
18:43
You can do it.
18:44
And a lot of times what I was trying to do in that moment was, and I saw this happen
18:49
a lot with my son, he would want to go back and say, this is really hard.
18:53
Getting up early is hard.
18:55
Dad's pushing me and collapse back to comfort.
18:59
And the whole goal was for the mother not to disengage, but to say, I want to push you
19:03
back towards your father.
19:04
He's doing this because he loves you and she could soften the intensity of the process,
19:09
which I believe would lead to under development.
19:12
Now when I was hiking across Spain, we did the 500 mile hike across Spain to sort of close
19:17
it, our journey.
19:18
I asked my son, I said, hey, Nate, I'm getting a ton of push back in the severing dinner.
19:22
What do you think?
19:23
And he responded with such passion, he said, you cannot leave that out of the book.
19:29
He said that was the most helpful thing psychologically to frame the whole process up.
19:34
And he said, I love mum, we both know mum's a really strong woman, but there was something
19:39
about me knowing I was entering into these years with you as my primary guide that was
19:44
super helpful for me.
19:45
So anxious societies felt it was necessary.
19:49
And I believe there is something psychically formative about severing that the their,
19:55
their bond that pushes them forward into something else.
19:59
But I say to people, it's a, it's a guide.
20:01
You don't want to do it.
20:02
Skip it.
20:03
Hey, that's, I'm a pragmatist, man.
20:05
Right.
20:06
Like people want to look at something and they're assuming that you're saying, hey, you should
20:08
follow this to the T, but I don't know how many times in your book, you're like, you
20:11
don't have to do all of these things the exact way that I'm describing.
20:14
But that does seem like a seminal point that I really wanted to ask you about.
20:17
And it's not surprising in the least, but especially living in the age that we live
20:20
in now, that people that would strike them as odd in something that would not be, you
20:24
know, a great thing for everybody.
20:26
But again, having your wife on board, I'm sure she wasn't the most fun thing for her.
20:30
She described that in the book, but it was very, very important.
20:33
And another thing that was important from the section where you talk about initiation,
20:37
you bring up this concept of defining the values of the men that, I guess, bear your
20:42
family name.
20:43
So in other words, this is what a Tyson man is.
20:45
This is what a Thompson man stands for, like that type of a thing.
20:49
And immediately as I was reading it, I start writing in the margins of the book, you know,
20:52
things that I think a Thompson man should stand for.
20:54
So resilience, honesty, reliability, discipline, courage.
20:58
And I wrote down all these things, some of those were similar and overlapped with some
21:02
that you would say for a Tyson man, but why is that so important for dads, not just to
21:06
be like, okay, here are the things I want my kid to know how to do.
21:09
I want him to know how to change a tire and throw a spiral, like those types of things.
21:12
But saying here are the definitive qualities of what makes a fill in the blank man a fill
21:17
in the blank man.
21:18
I think God's desire is for our lives generation by generation to get better and distribute more
21:27
blessing into the future.
21:29
I think God is a generational God.
21:31
And if we are stewarding our own stories well and and desiring to have a godly legacy that
21:37
we leave into the future, we have to discern what these things are and we have to pass
21:42
them forward.
21:43
The problem with a lot of young folks today is and a part of this is not is chronological
21:49
and a part of it is generational.
21:51
When you're young, you think the whole world started when you were born, you cannot conceive
21:54
of any history that really mattered before you had conscious awareness of life.
21:59
And we do live in a generation that is severed for the most part from previous generations
22:04
in healthy ways and looks only with disregard.
22:07
A lot of them look at the, I'm just thinking about media interviews I've seen with teenagers.
22:12
They look at the world and they think you've been poor stewards of creation.
22:16
They look at violence in culture and they say you fail to bring a society of peace.
22:20
They look at excess and say you fail to pass on any sort of self-controller restraint.
22:23
So this is a lot of criticisms, some of it genuine of previous generations.
22:28
And I want to push back on that and say, hey, no, there's good things you need that you
22:33
will miss out on if you do not receive because I have walked faithfully with God and I have
22:39
handled a large section of my business and I've got some wisdom and stuff to pass on
22:42
to you.
22:43
And I think that there is, there can be an ache and a longing to know that we're a part
22:49
of something bigger.
22:50
My greatest longing growing up, I would see other families that had these multi-generational
22:55
traditions, either property that they own going to family homes, family properties that grandparents
23:01
had brought or traditions that would happen at Christmas and other times.
23:06
And my home for a lot of different reasons had very few of those.
23:11
And I ached to be a part of a story larger than mine that was an inherited blessing that
23:16
I got to pass on.
23:17
I tell you something that's interesting, that the two families that understand the importance
23:22
of generational stories are the poor and the ultra wealthy.
23:26
It's the middle class that don't value them.
23:28
For the most part, the poor are stewarding stories of pain and struggle, overcoming and
23:33
courage.
23:34
You don't know where we've come from.
23:35
You don't know what we've been through to get here.
23:38
Do not forget your past and what it cost us.
23:41
The wealthy are often stewarding stories of privilege.
23:43
Do you know the success your grandfather had?
23:45
Do you know how we got this money?
23:47
Don't screw up where we've been.
23:49
For the most part, it's middle class people who are so consumed with their own stories,
23:54
they forget to pass this on.
23:55
And I think that there's tremendous value in doing it.
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24:27
Well, I just got to be honest with you, I don't know what a Thompson man is.
24:31
And the fact that I'm even asking that question proves that point because I grew up middle
24:34
class between lower to upper middle class for most of my life, and there was no conversation
24:39
around that.
24:40
I can't imagine what it's going to be like for my son whenever I defined for him.
24:43
Hey, here's what a Thompson man is.
24:44
He doesn't know any better.
24:45
I'm not going to say you're a great, great, great grandpa Thompson said this, this, and
24:48
this.
24:49
It's going to be a little bit different, but it is going to have a large impact on him.
24:52
So you've taken us so far through preparation.
24:55
We just wrapped up initiation, but then you get into formation.
24:58
This is where we really start getting down to the nitty gritty of how we're going to
25:01
be doing these things.
25:02
And in this section, you talk about a lot of different things again, guys, you're just
25:05
going to have to go get the book.
25:06
We are barely scratching the surface here, okay?
25:09
But you talk about preparing for big moments, okay?
25:12
So, and you've threw out a bunch of examples like first girlfriend, first time shaving,
25:16
first exposure to porn or drugs or first exposure to death, you know, sickness, those types
25:20
of things.
25:22
Why are these big moments so big and how can we as intentional fathers capitalize on those
25:28
big moments?
25:29
Well, there's something about our neuroplasticity and how our brains work where there's been
25:36
a ton of research that showed basically the major memories, memories are encoded, deeply
25:42
encoded, which means we carry them and retrieve them and live from them in moments of trauma,
25:48
in moments of beauty.
25:50
And they're disproportionately susceptible in our late teenage years and our early 20s.
25:54
That's why if you ask someone, you know, like, what's your favorite song?
25:57
It's often something that was like your first year of college or late high school.
26:01
There's some sort of like depth to them that is just wired by God there.
26:07
And so I think, you know, we can do tremendous power in getting these rights.
26:12
So that's a part of the way of leaving a lifetime legacy.
26:15
One of the most meaningful things my son has ever said to me, this was last year.
26:22
He was, he'd come home from college.
26:24
He was around in the summer.
26:25
We're driving along and he said to me, we're talking about how one of his friends was struggling
26:30
right now.
26:31
And he was struggling with a bunch of stuff for a bunch of different reasons.
26:34
And my son, while I was driving along, said to me, dad, I've been thinking about my childhood
26:39
and my friend and how when you grow up, there's all these moments that your dad is meant to
26:44
give you and they're meant to do stuff in you that you carry through your life.
26:50
And I just want to say thank you because I know that you created all those moments for
26:55
me and they're in my heart.
26:56
And I said, and that's an amazing thing to have your son say to you.
27:00
- That's great.
27:01
It's a dear joker.
27:02
So what are some of the things that stood out?
27:03
And I was stunned with the way that he was able to recall some of the intentional things
27:09
I did.
27:10
But then surprisingly, some things that I thought weren't that big a deal were life-oldering
27:17
for him.
27:18
Just moments where I was like, you know what, I don't know if I've got the energy, but
27:21
let me just do it anyway.
27:22
Some of those smaller moments were things that he really carried in his heart.
27:26
Some of the, should I say it or not?
27:28
You know what, let me just say it.
27:30
And that's those words.
27:31
P.S.D.'s heart encouraged him and I stayed with him.
27:33
So Jim Rohn, an old self-help guy that I actually really respect and I've appreciated a lot
27:38
of his stuff, he said life is measured by the intensity and frequency of beautiful moments.
27:45
Like that's what it is.
27:46
It's intense moments that stay with us.
27:48
And the more we can consciously curate those and be aware of the ones that he's experiencing
27:54
on his own.
27:55
For example, when I talked about first exposure to porn, the first time someone see an old
28:01
porn today is hardcore porn.
28:03
We're not talking about playboys seeing a top-use woman.
28:07
What happens in a kid's head when that happens?
28:10
That there's a desire for more, a sense of shame, particularly if they grow up in a household
28:17
of faith, an awareness of consciously violating a moral boundary.
28:21
How you handle that moment will create shame or godly repentance for the rest of their
28:29
life.
28:30
You don't want to wing something that powerful.
28:34
And so to me, the more time we spend in advance thinking about these and then consciously working
28:38
to create these, I think the better job we can do at leaving a godly and healthy legacy.
28:42
I talk about the book The Power of Moments in there and I think that that book is a master
28:46
class on how to create those moments well.
28:48
Well, John, the reality is everybody remembers stuff from childhood.
28:52
We all remember stuff, whether it was intentional from our fathers or not.
28:55
And I think a lot of guys that are like slaves to authenticity or something like that will
28:59
be like, well, I want the moments just happen naturally.
29:02
I don't want to plan for it.
29:03
It's like, why?
29:04
If the moment's awesome, like, is this about you or is this about your son?
29:08
So like, just the thought of like, you know, taking your kid out of school early to go
29:12
to an afternoon baseball game in your community or waking them up in the middle of the night
29:15
because some big news thing happened, you wanted him to see it live on television.
29:19
Like I think those are things that are so minor, but it's going to be so much better
29:23
than a little bit more sleep they would have gotten or that one or two hours that you're
29:27
going to miss from work, you know, the little bit of vacation that you had to take.
29:30
So I think the winging it process is what causes a lot of issues for guys, because guys will
29:34
just not wing it, you know, they'll keep the arrow in their quiver as it were.
29:38
Yeah, I agree.
29:39
What I'm trying to develop is an instinct of awareness of moments.
29:42
Like these years are so disproportionately formative, you're always just scanning and
29:48
asking the question, how do I make this moment matter or does this moment matter or how can
29:53
I push this to matter?
29:55
And so to me, I think that's really important.
29:57
A lot of folks, you know, part of the feedback I get, which I don't think your audience may
30:02
be different, a lot of pushback I get is like, man, this is so intense.
30:06
And I was like, you know, like, this is so much.
30:08
People say, you want to know what's intense, when your kid comes and tells you, you filled
30:13
my life with wounds.
30:16
That's what's intense.
30:17
And I can tell you.
30:18
That's way worse.
30:19
Yeah.
30:20
And I can tell you now, after having my son out of the house for four years, almost.
30:24
If I had my time again, I would have gone harder, not dialed it down.
30:30
If I would, I would very, very gladly trade 100 hours that I spent watching TV or movies
30:35
for 100 hours with my son again.
30:38
And I'm telling you, like, you will regret not making moments more than you will, working
30:44
hard to create beautiful ones.
30:46
I mean, I think about that literally all the time, because we live in this culture where
30:50
it's, so I just binge watched the show on Netflix or on Amazon Prime.
30:55
And then it's like, okay, when's the next show or what show am I going to move to now?
30:58
And it's all these people that are looking for 10 more hours of distraction from their
31:01
normal life.
31:02
And it's like, bro, when's the last time you read a book?
31:04
When's the last time you put on your running shoes?
31:06
Like, when's the last time you spent, took your wife on a date and we're worried about
31:09
squid game season two, like, what are we talking about here?
31:12
Um, now I do want to get into a little bit, because from that section at the beginning
31:15
of chapter 10, that's a chapter called being good at being a man.
31:18
You have this quote that I wanted to ask you about in the quotes this young men today don't
31:22
aspire to a moralistic vision of generic goodness.
31:26
They want a deep understanding of what a man actually is and how to be good at that.
31:30
They want the vision and skill to master the art of manhood.
31:34
I will say when I read that quote, I highlighted it and in the margin I wrote, I don't agree.
31:40
I don't see modern kids this way at all.
31:43
I see most of these men looking for cheat codes of how they can, you know, kind of get
31:47
away with doing just enough or getting away with doing just enough to where they're not
31:51
accused of being toxically masculine or where they're not violating, you know, the, you
31:56
know, whether I want to ask this girl on a date, but I don't want to see him.
31:58
I want to come off too strong or I see this generic morality all over the place in this
32:04
generic goodness and I see people, especially kids more focused on potentially being an
32:08
influencer on TikTok or YouTube someday than they are about the art of manhood and perhaps
32:14
I'm a little bit just jaded or cynical about what I see in the world, but kind of help me
32:18
understand a little bit more about that quote.
32:20
Well, I think I was, you know, taking perhaps a, maybe a cheap shot at the vision of modern
32:27
American men's ministry, you know, and particularly the past and I, again, I'm aware of the complexities
32:34
generational brokenness.
32:36
So I don't think I named names in there, but I would say this in the typical men's movement,
32:46
it's all about struggling not to, I'm trying not to look at porn, I'm trying not to take
32:54
my job too seriously.
32:56
And it's like it's a man with muted passions with a tucked in polo shirt and khaki pants,
33:04
just overwhelmed with obligation and responsibility.
33:08
You know, like, again, I'm trying to be careful, but like a busy, we need it.
33:14
Bring it.
33:15
Let's go.
33:16
Is this suburban dad who can't quite handle his life?
33:19
And I'm simply just saying you're not going to win a young person's heart with that sort
33:25
of vision.
33:27
God has created men to desire significance.
33:32
He has put ambition in them.
33:34
He's made their body strong.
33:36
He's filled them with desire.
33:38
And when I look at Jesus, I don't see a busy, overwhelmed person who didn't live with passion
33:45
from his heart.
33:46
So what I'm trying to basically do is activate a desire in men to model to their sons a life
33:55
from the heart filled with passion to the full, like Jesus offered, and not some lame,
34:03
moderate, suburban American, tame, measured, balanced life.
34:11
I'm at war with that, you know?
34:13
Right.
34:14
Well, there's so many people that are at war with the alpha male, and it's like the alpha
34:16
male is not going to destroy us.
34:18
It's the beta male.
34:19
And I'm using those pejoratively as kind of these broad stroke terms and all that.
34:22
You know, I don't mean how much you can mince press or what types of things you're into.
34:25
I mean, having the attitude of a beta.
34:27
Some of this, I think, goes back to churches that spend all this time focusing on Lamb of
34:31
God and no time focusing on Lion of Judah.
34:34
And these young men, you know, maybe they're not as attracted to this, you know, soft featured
34:39
white guy Jesus that's got blonde hair and blue eyes and just goes around smooching people
34:43
and telling them how cute they looked that day.
34:46
Maybe that's not the Jesus that's going to get these men fired up.
34:48
But I think this attaches to something that you say because one of the names you did name
34:52
was Jack Donovan.
34:53
You know, this is a secular guy who wrote the book, The Way of Men.
34:56
And he's very critical.
34:57
These Christians men, men's movements, because he says they're cliches.
35:00
That's all these movements are.
35:01
They're ineffective because everything is about focusing on being a good man while as
35:06
we're not defining what a good man is, but it goes to what you're saying.
35:09
A good man doesn't do these things, but we don't spend any time focusing on what a good
35:13
man actually does.
35:14
So why is it that somebody from the secular world that shouldn't really have a worldview
35:19
that even, you know, reckons with these types of things?
35:21
How can he nail the issue so well and all these, you know, godly groups, these Christian
35:26
men's groups that just throw you in a circle and say, talk about yourselves.
35:29
Like how are they getting it so wrong?
35:31
Well, I think some, I think there's two forces.
35:34
One is internal and one is external.
35:37
Number one, we're in a spiritual war and one of the great tools of Satan is to think to
35:43
get Christians to think that any form of conflict is ungodly.
35:47
The Bible is filled with conflict, extraordinary how much conflict there is.
35:52
Second, it's got, but you've got to be in the right fight for the right cause with the
35:55
right attitude.
35:57
I think, so I think that's a huge force where we're like, we're continually like reducing
36:03
our passions.
36:04
We're not wanting to offend.
36:05
I think that that is a toxic part of our culture because it is driven by people who don't care
36:11
what you think, who are violently using their power to silence you.
36:16
So again, it's a form of cultural hypocrisy, but Christians not wanting to alienate people
36:21
from Jesus, I think a very, very susceptible to that.
36:24
I think on the inside as well inside the church, I think again, there's been so many bad examples
36:32
of this, there is such a thing as toxic masculinity.
36:36
I mean, it exists in the world and it exists inside the church, but we're so overreacting
36:43
to it that we're actually falling into the opposite trap.
36:47
A passive man is a gift to nobody.
36:51
And that's why when I talk about the values, I address this in Proverbs chapter 31, so
36:56
do not give you a strength to women.
36:59
Your vigor to those who ruin kings, and my whole point is like male strength and vigor
37:04
is a gift.
37:05
The key is to handle it and channel it in the right direction.
37:09
I'm working on a book right now and a little bit of a project called Restoring Kings, and
37:13
the whole thing is basically about it's like it's for men that they don't, it's for men
37:18
who didn't get the primal path growing up.
37:21
And my whole contention is about how to activate and channel male energy.
37:25
So I think again, the church has been, it's so reactive.
37:29
It feels threatened by strong men.
37:32
I think Jesus would be kicked out of most churches today.
37:35
Jesus would be seen as a fundamentalist and they'd kick him out and they'd say he's too
37:40
intense.
37:41
So to me, trying to, my goal is to get Jesus back at the center.
37:44
When you read the Gospels, Jesus is more shocking and more passionate than any of us are truly
37:50
comfortable with.
37:51
He is 100% lamb and 100% lion.
37:54
He's 100% grace, 100% truth.
37:57
I think part of the reason people think is that if they pour enough of those two things
38:00
into the Jesus bowl, they'll get 100% of something, but he's not 75% lamb, 25% lion.
38:06
He doesn't exist in that type of a mindset, even though that would be easier for us to
38:09
all digest.
38:10
So, you know, again, we're kind of, you know, going quickly through all this, but we only
38:13
have so much time.
38:14
So we got preparation, initiation, formation, and then we get to the end and that's recognition.
38:19
Okay.
38:20
So this is kind of at the end of everything you mentioned, the hiking trip that you and
38:22
your son went on in Spain.
38:24
This is a ceremony of welcome and blessing.
38:27
And I don't have a question prepared for this side.
38:28
I just want to give you a little bit of space to explain why the recognition portion is so
38:33
important and what guys should be thinking about as they're kind of moving towards this
38:36
area.
38:37
Well, a big part of it is about identity.
38:40
I mean, there's a very, very simple psychological concept.
38:43
We get our sense of worth based on the person whose opinion we value the most.
38:46
I mean, that's where we're, that's where our line of recognition.
38:50
We know it should be God, but there's something I think within a man's heart where he's looking
38:56
for blessing and recognition from his father, this is like I've been a pastor for 25 years.
39:02
You know, I've seen thousands and thousands of people come through our church in New
39:09
York.
39:10
I was a youth pastor before that in, in large mega churches.
39:14
There is something about every man that aches for the recognition of his father to say way
39:21
to go.
39:22
I'm proud of you.
39:23
I love you.
39:24
It's one of the most primal forces on planet earth.
39:28
If you've seen, I don't know if you saw Ad Astra, a powerful movie about fatherhood or
39:34
what was the one behind the pines about multi-generational impact.
39:39
All of these, these things have the same story.
39:41
I'm wounded and I ache for blessing and you're either going to live from blessing or you're
39:46
going to strive for blessing.
39:48
And I think one of the greatest things we can do is create a foundation of blessing in
39:52
the life of our sons.
39:54
So I think there's a primal need where people ache for that.
39:57
Secondarily, I think people desire to belong to a community of men.
40:03
Where in our world today are there environments where men can be vulnerable and accepted and
40:08
pushed and challenged?
40:10
Where is that?
40:11
Like that, there's very, the only place, I'm telling you, the only place I think I find
40:15
this is in cigar bars.
40:17
Like if I get into a cigar bar, it's like it's about an hour to have a smoke and you sit
40:23
around and you talk in Manhattan, sometimes I'm doing this with investment bankers and
40:29
sometimes construction workers all.
40:31
And I'm constantly amazed at how that desire for a sense of belonging and recognition in
40:37
the community of men is potent.
40:39
So letting young men know you can have a healthy sense of identity.
40:43
You can have this formed inside a community of men.
40:47
I think that's one of the things we offer to the world again.
40:51
So my son feels like he has almost like a council around him.
40:56
If he's got problems with money, there's an expert in his life he can go to.
41:00
He's got like this brotherhood, this older brotherhood, because they're older than him,
41:05
but that sort of tribe and belonging I think is usually important.
41:08
Christians have historically done very well at this.
41:11
An American society going back to Benjamin Franklin and his desire to create associations
41:17
of belonging.
41:18
This has been a strength of our nation, but it's all fragmented.
41:22
And so I think we give that recognition back.
41:24
We give him a tribe to belong to.
41:26
We're going to create a force of good in the world.
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41:55
Well guys, that's why I think it's such a good idea for you to get this book, the intentional
42:00
father, because you do lay all these things out and there are more areas that I disagreed
42:05
with you in the book.
42:06
But that like there are a lot of areas of agreement and that's the thing you said earlier.
42:10
You don't have to take this thing whole cloth.
42:11
If you do, you're probably not going to mess it up too bad, but you can obviously put your
42:15
own flavor in it.
42:16
Your family background is different where you live is different, like not everyone can
42:19
go to Spain and do a hiking trip, like it's just different.
42:22
But guys, there's a lot of really great tools in here, but you have other tools as well
42:26
that are just outside of this book and the other books that you've written and you've
42:28
mentioned it, I believe earlier in our interview here, and that's the primal path.
42:32
Okay, so what is the primal path and how does it, I guess, work alongside the intentional
42:37
father?
42:38
Well, the intentional father is, you know, the primal path is more expensive and you know,
42:43
I wanted dads to have skin of the game and it takes a little longer to go through.
42:49
But you know, most of the content of the primal path is in the book.
42:52
I will tell you something I'm working on right now, which is the number one request I get
42:57
both from the course and from the book.
42:59
You know, I'm a, I'm a pastor, you know, a lot of what I do for a living is content.
43:04
It's thinking, it's analyzing, it's solving problems, it's teaching.
43:08
So it is a lot easier for me to say, hey, let me design a six year journey for my son
43:12
and come up with content every day.
43:14
A lot of dads are busy.
43:16
And so a lot of the places where people get stuck, it's like, hey, man, do you have like
43:20
a Bible study in the life of David or Joseph or Jacob or Jesus or, and, and at the point,
43:26
I've said like, no, you do the work and you will fill in the gaps of your own formation
43:32
and grow.
43:33
But honestly, I realized this may be something that I have a, like a capacity in and I probably
43:37
need to stew it a little better.
43:39
So right now I'm working with the primal path on a four year scoping sequence, like a college
43:46
degree, but for high school kids, about how dads can actually take this.
43:51
And again, you could use those as like discussion guides.
43:54
You could use those as like, you know, stuff you want to for yourself, but I'm designing
43:58
the primal path to be a little bit more comprehensive in the book.
44:02
So for dads who say, I don't know if I can do six weeks with my son on porn, sexuality,
44:08
masturbation, dating, marriage and women off the top of my head.
44:11
It's like, Hey, man, I got you.
44:14
Here's at least a really helpful starting point.
44:15
So I'm trying to make the primal path a little more robust for guys who want to take you to
44:19
another level.
44:20
And guys, I'll have a link to what the primal path is currently in the notes so you can
44:24
check that out.
44:25
And I want to talk to you a little bit more about that off air.
44:27
That sounds pretty interesting.
44:28
But I always try to be very sensitive to what I think my listeners would want to ask.
44:32
And I know that the minute I mentioned that you were a pastor in New York City, that guys
44:35
are going to want me to ask something along these lines.
44:37
So New York City, which is a shock to nobody is very liberal.
44:41
It's very whenever I live there, I was shocked by the depravity in that city by the darkness
44:46
in that city, which makes it right for the gospel, right?
44:49
Because there is a lot of darkness in that city and in that state that needs to be pushed
44:52
back on the state itself is very pro baby murder, otherwise known as abortion, the state house
44:57
cheered when they basically made abortion legal through the day of birth.
45:00
It's pro LGBTQ lifestyle, not just feelings, but the entire lifestyle, the entire array
45:05
of that, you know, two things that are very counter to the Christian worldview in practice.
45:10
How do you as a pastor that wants to be relevant, but not so relevant that you're not gospel
45:15
centered and biblical?
45:16
How do you speak into those issues, you know, in your city, in your state without being ran
45:22
out of town?
45:23
Well, I mean, I tell you an interesting thing.
45:25
Part of it is about having courage.
45:27
I did a series called the controversial Jesus and that to me is probably worth your listeners.
45:32
I talk about Jesus in the gay community, Jesus in the trans get gender community, Jesus
45:36
and women, Jesus and politics, Jesus and Mammon.
45:40
I try to hit like the biggest issues.
45:42
No one's willing to touch and to go at them with my highest level of skill and teaching
45:48
that I could.
45:49
So I recommend those resources if people want to actually listen to how I've handed it in
45:53
the past.
45:54
When I first moved to New York, this is 2005, I met with a Christian leader who'd been there
45:58
a long time and I said, I'm an open book, give me any advice.
46:03
What do you want to say to me?
46:04
It was the shortest meeting I've ever heard.
46:06
He said this, "Woe to you when all men speak well of you."
46:11
That's what Jesus said.
46:13
And that was the meeting.
46:15
You want to talk about it like never give up.
46:18
You know, it's just like, and here I am talking about a 16 minute, 16 years later, very, very
46:22
potent meeting.
46:23
So I've tried to do that.
46:24
Now Christians can be offensive in an ungodly way, but we will always have some sort of
46:32
godly offense in a secular culture.
46:34
So it's inevitable.
46:35
So number one, I've broken, I think, the fear of man in my heart.
46:39
I realized that I'm in a spiritual war.
46:42
I realized that the culture thinks that what I believe is unhealthy and unhelpful.
46:49
They think it's as wrong as I think that what they think is as wrong.
46:52
I'm trying to be disruptive, but not disrespectful.
46:55
And I think that's the way I'm trying to do it.
46:57
The Bible in one Peter three offices do this with gentleness and respect, but I want to
47:01
be persuasive.
47:03
I want to speak with conviction, but my number one thing I'm trying to work on is building
47:08
a counter cultural community.
47:09
And that's what I think the church should be.
47:11
So often the church is yelling at the LGBTQ community where you've got men binging on
47:16
porn and treating their wives terribly, you know?
47:20
And so it's like we got to get our house in order.
47:22
It doesn't mean we wait till it's a hundred percent in order before we share our convictions
47:26
and speak out, but so we are so far lagging behind.
47:31
And I also try and be an equal opportunity offender as well.
47:34
And coming from Australia, and I'm now a US citizen, but I'm, you know, I don't think
47:40
America is the promised land.
47:42
I think Jesus, kingdom of heaven is in every culture in every place where Jesus has preached
47:47
and submitted to his Lord.
47:49
So I'm willing to be an equal opportunity offender.
47:50
So for example, when everybody was hating on Trump, and there was like so much Trump
47:55
hatred in New York, Manhattan, where I've been the last 16 years, you know, 90% voted
48:01
for Biden.
48:02
It's obviously a democratic city, but I would say to you, how many of you has discussed
48:06
by, you know, Donald Trump and his behavior, you know, and how many of you have looked
48:09
at violent images of women and masturbated to it this month, looking at pornography?
48:16
Now, I said that from the pulpit that may, I'm not trying to be like Driscoll at all.
48:22
But I think that those sort of honest confrontations where we get the log out of our own eye, and
48:28
we realize that judgment begins in the house of God and we preach that.
48:32
I think that builds a counterculture that I think in some way shows the world what's
48:35
possible.
48:36
I think in a lot of ways, bullying in some of the language aside, I think the church could
48:41
use a little bit more Driscoll because the salt and light that we're called to be, we
48:45
can't be a preservative that salt was meant to be used as if we're not salty.
48:49
And again, you put it out there, it's like our message should be offensive because the
48:53
gospel is very offensive to every other worldview that's not centered in the gospel, but the
48:57
way that you present it should not be.
48:59
But one thing that I think is kind of interesting for you is you came from Australia, now you're
49:04
in the United States, but you're in New York City, which is kind of like not the United
49:07
States.
49:08
No, it's definitely Europe.
49:09
Yeah, it's like it's own country or something like that.
49:12
So during this time of COVID, which we're in year three of all this with the lockdowns
49:16
and in Australia, they basically have like internment camps, yeah, it's very, very weird.
49:22
And the thing I'm also seeing that's weird.
49:24
I don't really know what my question is here, but I'm seeing Romans 13 thrown a lot around
49:28
a lot, you know, as a reason for us to just go along with whatever the governing authorities
49:33
tell us to do.
49:34
And then others are using Romans 13 as the exact reason why should we should resist the
49:38
government authorities.
49:39
And, you know, we should clearly try to overthrow the things that they're doing without regard
49:43
for Godly authority.
49:45
But for you, how do you act as not just another Christian, but as a pastor, as a leader, as
49:51
a shepherd of people in these times where the government is basically telling the church
49:56
what it can do, telling us to separate people into vaccinated, unvaccinated or clean and
50:01
unclean.
50:02
How do you traverse that?
50:03
It seems impossible.
50:04
Well, I mean, it is impossible that it seems impossible.
50:07
It's impossible.
50:08
So I've had people, you know, it's two thoughts on that.
50:12
Number one, just in terms of demographic trends and sociology, I just posted today and then
50:18
again, something last year, it's amazing how many people are moving to the south.
50:23
Right.
50:24
Top 10, the top 10 areas where people are moving are all red states, all those cities.
50:28
Yeah.
50:29
I mean, if I was in politics, rather than just accusing everybody for doing that, I would
50:35
try and understand the reasoning behind.
50:38
What is, what is it about these other parts of the country that is making people bleed
50:42
out from them and want to go into different environments?
50:45
I don't have an opinion on that.
50:47
I just, that's a fascinating thing to me.
50:50
The southern states traditionally, even during COVID have, you know, defied a lot of the orders
50:57
and had a larger sense of freedom.
50:59
I think you've got to be wise.
51:01
What is the goal is to be a godly wise man.
51:06
So how do you handle these things with wisdom?
51:08
And I think for me, it's like place to place.
51:12
It's very, very different.
51:13
I got COVID in March 2020.
51:15
My wife got it.
51:17
This is right on the front end.
51:19
My wife is in bed for a month and almost died.
51:22
I'm grateful for the vaccine in many ways.
51:24
You look at the ways people's like, I just actually just saw a chart this morning.
51:29
It's like the people who were dying for the most part are unvaccinated people.
51:33
Now, am I like a vaccine pusher?
51:37
No, I want to be wise in how all of these things play together.
51:40
What I think should happen is that Christians should live with a freedom of conscience.
51:43
I think pastors should lead as much as they can from the Scriptures.
51:47
They should obey where they must.
51:48
They should defy where they must.
51:50
But I'll tell you this, moralizing it, moralizing it and then hating other Christians because
51:57
of it is not building credibility in the eyes of the world.
52:01
I tell people, in New York City, if you are older and maybe it's like, this is why I left.
52:07
I'm still there.
52:09
But over five years of age, you're required to be vaccinated to participate in the social
52:13
contract.
52:14
Like, if you're going to go to a restaurant, you have to have proof of vaccine or whatever.
52:18
We don't require proof of vaccine at our church.
52:20
It's like, that's a line I'm not willing to make.
52:22
I'm not going to say, hey, you have to show a vaccine card at the door.
52:27
I believe that the US still has places for exemptions and that sort of thing.
52:31
What I get frustrated about is I tell people, I've been in New York 16 years, I've preached
52:36
on all the hard topics, I've lived with convictions, I've modeled integrity.
52:40
And if you're going to leave our church over a requirement, we have or a refusal to have
52:47
a requirement like that, hey, you know what?
52:48
You probably should because in my mind, you are not on the same mission that I am.
52:54
And you have taken something that is a secondary issue, you've moralized it to a first principle
52:58
issue.
52:59
And you're not, you're not centered on Jesus and the kingdom of God.
53:03
Now that may offend some people.
53:04
That's fine.
53:05
Show me in the Bible where a mask or a vaccine is a central issue in the kingdom of God.
53:11
It's not a condensed symbol.
53:13
And people keep trying to make it one.
53:15
And so to me, we need to be gracious with one another.
53:17
We need to be wise where we are.
53:19
I'm never mean or snarky.
53:20
I always try and be pastorally responsible.
53:23
I read deeply on both sides of the issues.
53:26
There's different convictions from people.
53:27
I fundamentally respect on both sides of all of these issues.
53:31
I try and serve Jesus faithfully where I am.
53:33
Be a counterculture.
53:34
Well, John, it's so much easier to deal with life when we can granularize everything, right?
53:40
If we make everything about the mass, because I know people that have left churches because
53:44
they had a mask mandate, I know people that have left churches because they didn't have
53:47
a mask mandate.
53:48
I was just like, is your discipleship with under that, you know, shepherd so weak that
53:55
it can be altered with one thing that doesn't seem to be like that big of a deal?
53:58
And I feel like I opened up a can of worms without having, you know, requisite time to
54:02
really deal with it.
54:03
But I want to go and move into the last section of the show here and John, I'm watching the
54:06
clock.
54:07
We got about five minutes left, but this last section just kind of rapid fires out.
54:11
Okay.
54:12
Yes.
54:13
Okay.
54:14
Let's get into it.
54:15
So the last section of my show, and I love doing this with people and you'll do great
54:16
at it.
54:17
What would you say to somebody that said, or what would you say to someone that said,
54:22
and I'm going to fill in the blank with a statement, okay, and it could be about a little
54:25
thing or it could be about a big thing.
54:26
But here's the deal.
54:27
You have 30 seconds to respond, okay?
54:30
We can't get into philosophy.
54:31
We can't get into a bunch of first point, second point, main point, it is just straight
54:35
up meat, potatoes.
54:36
You got to give me the first thing off the top of your head.
54:39
So you think you're up for it?
54:40
Yeah, man.
54:41
Let's go.
54:42
Okay.
54:43
What would you say to someone that said, I simply don't have time to be an intentional
54:46
father?
54:47
You will sadly live with the consequences of your lack of intentionality.
54:52
The pain of regret is greater than the pain of discipline.
54:57
Make the time.
54:58
All right.
54:59
What would you say to someone that said, I'm not comfortable with pastors making money
55:03
on things that are outside of their normal job duties?
55:07
I would say the apostle Paul funded his entire mission by making tense and receiving donations.
55:14
Intimothy five says the elders who teach and lead well are worthy of double honor and
55:17
Paul still made tense.
55:18
So you need to get a larger theology about how money works.
55:21
All right.
55:22
Let's keep going.
55:23
You're doing great.
55:24
What would you say to someone that said, if I only have daughters, do I still need to
55:27
try and become an intentional father 100% I've got a whole nother thing that I did for my
55:32
daughter called 50 pieces of my heart, 50 key deposits every dad needs to make in his daughter's
55:37
life.
55:38
I'm working on that right now.
55:39
They need it.
55:40
Okay.
55:41
Very good.
55:42
Well, we'll make sure to have you back on whenever that is done because our guys definitely need
55:43
that as well.
55:44
What would you say to someone that said Australia will never be as good at rugby as New Zealand.
55:52
That sadly may be true, I mean, I can acknowledge the old blacks or something else.
56:00
Okay.
56:01
I've got a neighbor that lives a few doors down that used to play for the all black.
56:03
So I kind of asked that question specifically for him had to get that needle in here just
56:07
a few more left.
56:08
What would you say to someone that said, my number one goal as a man is to provide financially
56:13
for my family.
56:14
The rest will take care of itself.
56:16
It will not take care of itself.
56:18
You're wrong.
56:19
You need a bigger view of success.
56:22
And I think you need to ask the people who you were responsible for.
56:27
What does success look like in our relationship?
56:29
Not just financially money does matter because a lack of money creates stress and strain
56:34
that's often unnecessary, but you need a bigger view and a wider vision of relationships.
56:39
All right.
56:40
What would you say to someone that said the western church will eventually collapse?
56:44
That's not true.
56:46
They're wrong.
56:47
Yeah.
56:48
Give me a little bit more building his church in this.
56:51
That is the spirit of Elijah.
56:52
Well, it was me.
56:53
I'm the only one.
56:54
Jesus is and then God's like, there's 7,000 people I've got for myself.
56:58
God's plans are always bigger than our ability to understand them.
57:00
He'll always have a faithful remnant.
57:02
All right.
57:03
What would you say to someone that said, Aussie Aussie Aussie?
57:07
Oi, oi, oi.
57:08
I've always wanted to do that.
57:10
And it was never appropriate until this exact moment.
57:12
So thank you for allowing me to do that.
57:14
But last question of the day here.
57:15
All right, John, what would you say to someone that said masculinity is inherently toxic?
57:21
They're wrong.
57:23
They're wrong.
57:25
That's it.
57:26
I agree that they're wrong.
57:28
Definitely guys that listen to this show agree that they're wrong, but John, we have taken
57:31
a lot of your time today and we went into a lot of detail in this book again, guys.
57:35
The book is in the show notes the intentional father, but you know, we don't have time.
57:38
To go into any of the other issues and the other cans of words that I opened.
57:41
But that is all for me.
57:42
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest now, man?
57:44
This was good.
57:45
Thanks so much for listening, taking the time and I really appreciate you reading the book
57:48
and giving a thoughtful sort of back and forth on a lot of folks just like wing meta questions.
57:54
It's obviously worked hard.
57:55
Thanks for taking the time to do that.
57:56
I respect that.
57:57
Well, I appreciate that.
57:58
That is my thing.
57:59
If you're going to donate your time to me, I better donate my thought and input into the
58:02
things that you've done because that's better for you, better for me and certainly better
58:05
for the audience.
58:06
I'm Tyson, thank you so much for coming on on Daunted Life of Man's podcast.
58:09
No worries.
58:10
Cheers, mate.
58:11
Appreciate it.
58:12
There you go, guys.
58:13
I hope you enjoyed our interview with John Tyson.
58:14
There's a lot of practical knowledge and wisdom in there, a lot of stuff for you to take and
58:17
chew on later.
58:18
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life.
58:22
Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness and specifically we do that with
58:25
content like this podcast that helps you forge spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
58:30
So I've got two links for you today.
58:31
I've got a link to the Amazon link where you can go and pick up the intentional father
58:35
by John Tyson and I've also got the intentional father by John Tyson from Barna, so you can
58:40
order from either of those places.
58:41
And then also I've got a link to the primal path, which we talked about in the interview.
58:44
All right, guys.
58:45
Thanks so much for listening to the podcast.
58:46
We do appreciate it.
58:47
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five
58:51
star review.
58:52
If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an email
58:55
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58:59
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59:03
for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your
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way.
59:07
Just go to www.undaunted.life and we also want to thank the band, August Burns Red, for allowing
59:13
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59:14
The music on this podcast is our song, Cutting the Ties, which is off their 10th anniversary
59:19
re-recording of their album, Leveler.
59:21
The links are in the description.
59:23
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
59:25
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience.
59:32
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:00:02
[music]