JON ROOT | Christianity, Conservatism, & Controversy (Ep. 836)

This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. John Roo, welcome to my house. >> What's up? you are here, man. It's been a long time, >> dude. It's so nice to get out of Arizona. >> Well, and you came to Oklahoma on like the perfect day because it was like in the 80s all week and then we just had major cold front. I say major, it's in the 60s. And so, but still for like we're recording this in October, so it's it's pretty good for >> someone from Phoenix, Arizona, that's basically below freezing for me. >> That's That's true. So, like in the winter time, what how cold does it get? Like >> I swear I I feel like I hit a reset. every single summer is a month or a month and a half too long. And then I just I probably get it some form of heat stroke and then I'm like, you know, winter we have that and it's I I legitimately can't tell you >> cuz I feel like it's survival mode. We're like, okay, survive. And I feel like tropic thunder. >> Well, I feel like I can deal with the real hot. It's the real cold that I don't think I would like prefer, I guess, because it's like you can only put so many layers on. But people will talk about Oklahoma, they're like, "Oh, I just love Oklahoma. It has all four seasons." I'm like, "Yeah, if you consider the two weeks of spring we get and the two weeks of fall because it's not beautiful for very long. It goes from like, you know, the surface of the sun and then the winter is just like cold and like rainy and windy or whatever and then we have these mild winters too." >> Is it crazy humid out here? >> Yeah. >> It's not like Louisiana like Bayou stuff, but it's it's uncomfortable. >> It's >> It's not dry heat. I feel like I am drinking out of a water hose when it comes to being an Oklahoma for the weekend. Yeah, I'm I'm probably not even saying that right. I have no idea anything about Oklahoma. This is the first time I've ever been here. So, never been to Oklahoma. So, I'm like I'm like, "All right." I'm driving around. I'm like, "This kind of looks like Texas, but if I call it Texas, is that like offensive to people?" >> Yeah. To a lot of okis are offended by it, but Texas is just a more expensive, cockier version of Oklahoma. Like that's essentially what it is, right? But no, so like in Oklahoma, like I mean you're going to an OU game tomorrow and so you'll be around a bunch of people like none of them that actually went to the university, but like people that you know went to Walmart and bought a U t-shirt and that kind of thing. >> So people like me and my family. >> Yeah. Well, you know, it's it's fine. Like it's totally fine. And I'm I'm sure it's like that in every state here. It's just especially agreed just with Sooner fans. And I know y'all are out there like hating on this right now. I can't believe you talk trash. But you know, in Oklahoma, it's just everyone's really relaxed. Like >> we're all kind of give you the shirt off of our back kind of people. were not terribly pretentious and there's a lot of flat ground and a lot of guns and so it's like you have to be polite because if you're not like things could go poorly like >> so it's like it's like the wild west you're saying then >> well not like you know Yuma or anything like that so but you know to a degree you you got there's not a huge breakin percentage here in the state of Oklahoma because it's not like the UK where it's like yeah I'm just going to break in in the middle of day what are they going to do hit me with like a pot or something like that they don't >> especially if you're Muslim over there you can get away with anything >> you can get away with anything I saw a video yesterday of a woman that was walking her dog on her street. >> And I guess dogs are like really offensive to Muslims and Muslims are like really afraid of dogs, like you know, insanely afraid. And the police literally would not let this woman walk on her street. And she's like, "I'm sorry what?" >> They're like, "Well, there are Muslims that are that are, you know, on the sidewalks ahead of you and so we just we can't let you go down the street." And she's just like, "What? No, I live here. Like this is my neighborhood." Like imagine you you drove into my neighborhood. Imagine me not being able to walk a dog because somebody would be offended by the color of the dog or just the mere presence of the dog. Like, but I feel like we can't get into all like the craziness of the world yet because I'm having some deja vu right now because you and I are in a professional studio recording something and we we got to be careful. We can't like say anyone's name, but you and I were actually co-hosts of a show >> and we recorded an episode and it never was released and it didn't come out. So, like that's my recollection of essentially what happened. How many years ago was that? It was right after my second vocal cord surgery. That was our first episode. >> Was that that was 2023. I think it was I think it was like later 2023. >> Maybe even 2022. I I can't >> I'd have to go back and look at like when I had my surgery cuz I think I'm I think I'm over the 2-year mark of recovery for my surgery. So, yeah, it was 2020. >> It was a scam. The the whole thing was a scam. And like >> it's so weird being in a situation where again we're not naming names. It's like we have some reputable sources over here that's like oh I'm connected to this person or that person and they're creating this and it's like cool like I'm interested I'll go to this place. I guess we won't say the place either would really be mysterious about this. And then I don't know when it started you know you know red flags started popping up. I remember I remember it was when you so it was me, you, and this third guy at this mystery guy at this mystery place that we're not allowed to talk about >> and we were pitched on this show and yeah, we were brought in by outside folks that were like, "No, this is a legit group. They've got legit funding and they're interested in both y'all kind of hosting this show for men and like you know, >> impressive space too, >> right? Great space to do. >> Yeah. Lots of equipment, staff running around like professional photographers, professional videographers, editors, and the whole thing. >> And at one point, we're you just kind of pipe up in a meeting and you go, "Hey, who's in charge of like what we're doing? Does anyone kind of know like when do we record? Who's the producer that we we go back to? Like what do we do?" And we actually filmed a whole episode of this thing that was going to be our pilot. And then like it felt like in the in an hour everyone that worked there except for the main guy or two quit. >> Yeah. >> And then you were like this is dumb. This isn't a real thing. I'm out of here. And then I was like, well, I guess I'll drive home. Right. So that gives you an idea of the region I was in if I was able to drive back to the Oklahoma City area. But it was literally just like it went from being this like really cool, really unique opportunity to me being like, "Thank God I didn't sign anything." Yeah. >> Right. like saying that I would do this and and work here and put >> we just met each other too so we're getting we're getting to know each other but obviously we were hitting it off and it's like all right well in general it feels like there's a connection here this could be fun but I'm like you know who's the marketing director uh who's the director you know photography and production social and >> and it's like I I'm not here to come up with you know teaser trailers you know I'm happy to help and stuff but you you brought me in to be a personality all these things in places for people that don't know there does a lot of great stuff but I saw like bits and pieces of you know you're trying to make do you got somebody that wears 17 different hats and then you know there's still a reach there's a donor base you know you know in this situation there's funding but I'm like what in the world is going and then I'm trying to tell you and from what I remember like am I am I weird? Am I going crazy? >> Yeah. And my so normally I'm pretty you know astute observer of those things >> but I was in a blissful not blissful unawareness but I was in a blissful hopefulness because I'm not normally p like optimistic. I'm very pessimistic in my in my default mechanisms. >> But I was like yeah there are some things that stink but hey it's kind of startup pains. There's some things going on here. We're being told that things are going to work out in this way, this way, this way. But then everything kind of came crashing down on the same day. And you know, there's some people that you and I are still connected with from that that were kind of on the social side of things. And um some some different things that promises were made to people that they would have shows and that there would be all these spin-off opportunities, not just for personality stuff, but for business stuff. And then whenever whenever we left, when I say we left, like there was nothing to leave technically. There wasn't a show that was happening. No, because literally like I remember you leaving like 30 minutes before we were supposed to record episode one. You're like, "Yeah, I'm out. This is dumb." Like, and then I was just like, "Yeah, I I mean, I'm out, too. There's no producer here. The two other talent people are not here." And this is again right after my second vocal cord surgery. I'm lucky to be talking, right? Being able to phonate out of my face hole. And so I'm just thankful to have any opportunity to talk, you know, on a camera with a mic in front of my face or attached to me. >> And so it was just kind of it was one of the weirdest things. Then the guy running the whole show like threatened both of us like with lawsuits after that. And you know, I kind of I mean I don't get threatened with >> Yeah. He was going off the deep end. And I was like, >> "Brother, like all I'm saying is just like at least have some respect for us." Like this this is a scam. Like I I'm not trying to get scammed, especially somebody that you know is talking especially people talk all this hoopla about being a Christian. Yeah. >> And I'm like this is a joke. >> Yeah. That's one thing we didn't mention. This supposed to be like a Christian conservative like Christian before conservative. Capital C Christian Cervative network show entertainment agency. They're talking about like you know dramas and and docuer and all these different things. And I just but we've been I feel like we've both been around people that BS for a living. Sure. >> So when you sit down and we're kind of like meeting these people, >> it's like >> all you're doing is like I'm about to send you to the penalty box for embellishment. Yeah. >> For for the rest of the game. Like this is everything that was brought up. And it was like >> all right. Well, seemingly there's some connections here. There's some money here. But like at least for me, it's like my discernment meter's going off. we're connecting on some, you know, aspects of maybe theology and what's going on in the culture when it comes to Christianity, but I'm like everything you're saying is embellished to the max. And I'm I'm wondering how legit this is and that it can't it we can make an amazing movie about what happened here. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, without violating any confidence, we should probably leave it there because I think this is about the time cuz we're >> All right, we're 10 minutes into this thing. Yep. >> So, I figured, you know, your wife and your baby are here. You're hanging. They're hanging out with my family. We're going to do dinner after this. It's going to be great. >> But there's the reason I told you why you're here, and then there's the actual reason why I brought you to this state, to this wonderful state, to this wonderful red clay, and into my own studio. And it's because The Lord of the Rings is the worst. It's the absolute worst possible thing. the worst investment of time that I've made except maybe in that tal I don't know how you can still stand firm on this stance. It's the greatest trilogy of all time. >> So, let's just talk about let's just let's let's back up just a little bit. And so, for those of you that are new, we get new followers and listeners and viewers every week. So, we're very very thankful for you guys. But, I've been like a Lord of the Rings hater since high school because all my friends are like into sword and sorcery and fantasy and all that. I'm like, "Yeah, I just don't really like that kind of stuff." And they're like, "It's not sword and sorcery." Then there's like a sword fight and a wizard in the first five minutes of the first film. So I was like, "All right." So I watched the first film in high school, was very bored, thought, you know, I was going to fall asleep. And then I did fall asleep for >> even with that prologue. >> Yeah. >> You're watch that's the greatest prologue in the history. >> That is a tremendous opinion of yours. And so here I was. So then at this point I'm just I'm in the hater category cuz I'm 16 years old. I obviously know everything. And so I'm like I'm not going to watch the second half of the second movie. I'm not going to watch the third movie. I'm just going to make fun of people that like The Lord of the Rings for the rest of my life. And then here I was working my way up to 40 years of age, right? You know, I'm in my late 30s and out of nowhere, John, out of nowhere, my wife pipes up one day while we're, you know, watching TV in bed and she goes, "Hey, what would you think about watching The Lord of the Rings together, completely out of the blue, now >> I would do anything for my wife to say that." >> Okay. Well, you know, I I think she and I may get along a lot better whenever we go downstairs, but I was shocked for a lot of reasons. The first is that she she's not into pop culture. She's not into movies or shows. She she's like, I don't want to sit there and watch a whole movie. Like, oh gosh, gross. That's her normal mode. I didn't even know she was aware that the Lord of the Rings was a thing. That's how outside of the kind of entertainment zeitgeist she is. >> So, she got indoctrinated somewhere >> somewhere. Well, what happened was is it kept >> Maybe she saw some of my Instagram stories. >> Probably not. I try to keep her away from stupid stuff. And so like she was literally like it would just come up in conversations with random people and she's like I think I might like it. And I'm like really? >> She's like yeah. And so immediately in that moment I change gears. I shift gears and I go okay this is an opportunity to do something with my wife. But then immediately got practical. I was like wait a minute every one of those films is like 3 hours minimum. Like we put the kids down at like 8. We go to bed at like 9. Like there's when are we going to watch like 3 hours? So shout out to Jake Winkler, the largest fall forging tablelers. He always has to sit in that chair because he's the biggest person on the planet and he's the maybe a bigger nerd than you are when it comes to Lord of the Rings. >> I've seen him give a great apologetic for Lord of the Rings and I'm proud of it. >> No, you've seen him talk. Now, I don't know that it's it can be categorized as great, but anyway, Jake Winkler literally wrote out a Okay, if y'all were going to approach Lord of the Rings like an episodic series, here are some 60inute chunks, you know, 50 to 70 minute chunks from each movie, when to stop, when to start, and all that so that we could have a chance to get through the whole thing. >> What a legend. >> And I was like, Jake, that that's, you know, I didn't ask you to do that. You just thought it would be a help to us. And so, that's >> Can you connect us? >> I can. I can ask. It sounds like we would be best friends. >> Goodness gracious. >> Did we just become best friends? >> No. Yeah, you two can. Y'all can talk about that on your own. But so that's what we did. >> Y >> and so we watched the I mean it took us weeks, right, to to get through the the three films, but we would always pick back up kind of, you know, where we were last time >> and we're not talking about it as we're watching it. >> You know how people are like watching a TV show and they're like, "What do you think about that episode?" We weren't really doing that. We would watch the chunk and then we would go to bed cuz I and I'm sitting there the whole time and like when I say I had an open mind going into it, I legit had an open mind. I'm like, "Okay, we're wiping the slate clean. The last time I tried to watch this was over two decades ago. My tastes have completely changed. Let's really get into it." >> You're hopefully a different man. >> Yeah, I'm a different man. I'm a better man and I have even better taste uh at this point. >> Maybe it's the sanctification process at work. >> No, I don't think that I don't think that comes into play here. But here we are and as we're getting into the third movie, I'm just getting more and more frustrated. Like I don't like any of these characters. I think Froto is one of the worst, you know, characters in the world. Elijah Wood might be one of the most annoying actors on the planet and he's just constantly on the screen. And we get to the end of the film and it just won't end. There are 17 endings to the third film and I I Okay, there's the wedding. You know, Aragorn or whatever. He's got the wedding. Okay, great. That's it. Oh no, there's another there's another ending. Okay, Froto's going to go on a ship with a bunch of dudes. I wonder what they're doing out there on the waters. And then Okay, that's over. Oh wait, it's not over. >> Well, Galadriel's on that ship, too. You got to remember. >> Now we got Sam Weiss, who's apparently not Froto's Gailover, which was breaking news. And then he's got a wife and he's got kids and he just walks into his little miniature mud hut. And then the movie ends. And I was just like, I literally shot out of bed to take the dog out because I could not get away from the screen fast enough. And then I came back and my wife who's the sweetest person in the world and she gives everyone the benefit of the doubt gave it a score of four out of 10 which means in her language that means like a one or a two and I I gave it I think a three out of 10. >> If you're giving a movie a four out of 10 you never want to watch that again or care to discuss that with anyone ever. >> Correct. Correct. >> That is insane to me. It's it's on the it's on the like jely level of like movies, right? The Ben Affleck JLo movie that came out that was like Pandas, one of the worst movies of all time. >> And then I made the mistake that I'm now living through and I actually enjoying now of mentioning on my show that I don't like The Lord of the Rings and some of the reasons why. And I said, "Okay, why couldn't they just fly the eagle to Mount Doom from the beginning?" And I know you're going to give the apologetics for all that and like why, you know, >> it's a fine it's a fine question, but it's also one of those things that's easily debunked. >> Okay. Well, we'll get into some of the debunking in there, but it's like, okay, Froto's held up as the hero, but he didn't really destroy the ring on purpose. He kind of accidentally, you know, and it fell out and all the different things. But this is probably the most annoying part of this whole diet tribe, and then I'll turn it over to you to to give your your first salvo my direction on this was when I said it out there. the DMs and the messages I got from people was, "Well, have you read the books?" And I was like, "Well, why do I need to read the books to evaluate the movies?" Because they're different mediums. >> I think you're you're spot on there. I I think the movies should be able to stand alone. There's plenty of people, and you know, I'll let you have your your final thoughts, but to interject, it's basically that like they should be able to stand alone. There's always going to be uh the film adaptions that change things from the books, so people are going to be like, "I love it. I hate it. I'm indifferent about it." Whatever. Well, the last thing the last thing I I said was like, imagine me telling you Metallica is the greatest band of all time. I want you to listen to their entire catalog. So, you spend the time listening to every Metallica song ever recorded and then you don't like it. And then I say, you know what? I need you to go back and watch every documentary made about every single one of those albums, read the lyrics, and get the motivation behind everything, and then you'll like it. It's like at the end of the day, I feel like Lord of the Rings fans feel like Lord of the Rings is objectively good as opposed like it's impossible to not like. Like Gladiator is my favorite movie of all time. It's not a perfect movie. It's just my favorite. But if you watch and don't like it, okay, that's weird. That is also my favorite movie of all time. Okay, so we can we can bond there. But that's been a long time of me kind of setting up this Lord of the Rings thing. But you were the most vocal critic in my comment section. And then it like flies to crap. All these people just jumped on like, "Yeah, John, you're right. You're smart. you got a blue check mark and gray hair. And I was just like, okay, this can't keep happening. So, go ahead with your Lord of the Ringsness. Tell me where I'm wrong. >> Because I think just from a objective standpoint, the amount of awards it's won, you'd have to at least recognize that, you know, there's always going to it's like my wife doesn't really like fantasy stuff. Yeah. >> And like I can understand the people that I can't get into the wizards and the magic stuff and Yeah. And then for me, I love good just allegory. And I think u the interesting thing and again I could give a full explanation of how much I love the Lord of the Rings. Fellowship of the Ring for anybody listening that's actually my favorite. >> Okay. >> The first movie and you know I love the the battle at Helms Deep. I don't know if you as a manly man I I don't know how you watch that and you're >> It was a cool battle. >> Like sure I can understand the like okay legless you know skating on the uh the shield that might be a little cheesy. I to I totally get it. Um, but I can't get over how good that prologue is. I don't think I've seen any trilogy or movie set up an entire world in different people groups and languages and good and evil and the premise of this entire 9 plus hour journey you're about to go on better than the prologue in the Lord of the Rings. And there's plenty of people that are like I I actually have talked to a few people that are like I hate Lord of the Rings, but not for the same reason you. >> Okay. Why do they hate it? >> They don't like the adaption compared to the books. Like there's um Aragorn is a totally different character in the movies than he is in the books. And like you'll read the books and and I think have you read the books? >> No. >> I would actually be interested if you if I know it would take a lot. >> Yeah. for you to read the books and if you actually enjoyed them, if you're like, "Wait a minute, like this is actually good literature." >> Well, around the time we were watching these, I like I I was at a bookstore looking at all three books and I was like, "Maybe I should buy these and just read them." I struggle with fiction anyway. Just it's it's hard for me to kind of keep all the stuff straight. And I'm like, if I'm having tr I didn't really feel like I had trouble following the movie >> because you're the guy like you like war stories or like here's like a biography of that. And like for me, the way my mind works, I like being able to escape the craziness of the world and dive into Lord of the Rings. >> Different world. Yeah. That kind of thing. >> Like I I watch a YouTube channel called Nerd of the Rings every week. >> Oh boy. >> Every single week. And it's my getaway. Like I I love sports. >> We need to get you into jiu-jitsu. That's what we need. >> I I would love to do that. And I get my butt kicked. And I think I would probably I could need it. Uh cuz I'm getting the dad bought. It's happening. >> We can fix all of that. >> I need I need fixing >> while you're here. We can fix all of that. >> I need fixing. But Lord of the Rings just the world that's created by JRR Tolken I it's better than Chronicles of Narnia to me and then CS Lewis J.R.R. Tolken great friends right >> and then even uh Tolken would dog on Lewis be like Alan that's Jesus like we know right off the bat that's the Jesus character. Oh well he's killed and then he raises again and it's like he he would dog on him for that stuff. And I just think when you look at something like the ring, it's a totally it's not totally different, but there's aspects of the ring and the temptation of the ring that's different in the book than the movie. Um, it's not necessarily a power grab, but it's such a great allegory for sin. You know, the ring would affect every single bearer and it will like and just like the way sin consumes us, the ring ends up consuming everyone even if Gandh had the ability to get the ring. He refuses it just like Galadriel does and says like I could wield this but you know Gadro it's like I would be like basically the greatest and the most terrifying. And Gandalf reveals that too, that this is something that needs to be destroyed. And that's the way I look at it with sin is just sin needs to be destroyed and it's going to mold itself to people in different ways. It will completely take over a character uh like Gollum. And for me, I like that fantasy aspect and the fact that there's a language that's totally created in a world and like I've dove into it and I can get the people like you that are like, "Ah, this whole fantasy crap like exhausting." Um, for me, I just geek. I think it's just the coolest thing for someone to be able to God giving them not only that kind of imagination, but being able to put that down pen to paper and then for someone to go and adapt that later. And there's plenty of people that can be like, I don't like the, you know, you can not like aspects of Froto. You can not like aspects of Sam, but like someone like Sam, that's the best friend you could possibly find, I think, in cinema. Maybe, you know, there's there's a lot of great friendships and the sacrifice that he made consistently, he's the hero of the entire story. Froto is the quintessential like center part of the story, but what Sam does, he's essentially the hero. And I feel like that's what's interesting. There's so many heroes um in the story and how they just we piece that together. I I just I love it. >> Okay, let's find some areas of agreement. >> Yep. >> Frodo, actually, real quick. Yeah, >> they can't fly the Eagles to Mordor. >> Let's talk about the eagle >> because they are on a secret mission. If you're flying the Eagles to Mordor, you might as well just start blowing horns and let every single member of Sauron's army and his connections know, hey, we got what you're looking for and we're coming. How would they know to look for an eagle way up in the sky being read by or ridden by Gandor and or whatever you know Hobbit guy like >> you got the Nazol that are flying all over the place. Uh there spies like you see in the two towers like you see like those crow spies where they tried hiding behind the rocks. Um when the fellowship is or actually that's the fellowship of the ring at Sauron or Saurroman is sending those spies out. It's all about secrecy, you know, and like they they would totally blow their cover. And that's the interesting part about sending someone like and Froto saying yes to it because look to the Hobbit, you know, his his uncle Bilbo, he was able to go in and steal the Arkan stone from Smile. So like the Hobbits like it's still secrecy. You're trying to, you know, slide by these areas where enemy defenses are and stuff. So, if you use the Eagles, your cover's blown and you probably have the worst opportunity to actually destroy the ring if you use the Eagles, even though they're mighty and they've been around for years. >> Well, and there's no ability to stretch it out into three films that we have to watch uh for three hours plus at a time. And >> take the Eagles, they fight the Naz Ghoul. They find a way to beat him. Drop it in Mount Doom. Thanks for watching >> that. I mean, it's But we live in an era in time like that would be great. That that's a short that I can watch in 60 seconds or less. But, okay. Can we just admit that Frodo's depiction that that was just one of the most annoying? >> I want to know why I want to know why you think it's annoying. >> Like so Elijah Wood's annoying to me anyway because he's always like the pipsqueak in in every film. >> But how but how do you separate um the art from the artist? Cuz I have to do that with with sport at sports. I loved Steph Curry. >> Um as we're talking right now, he had the second game of the season, the NBA season. what he did against the Denver Nuggets. Amazing. But that guy's that guy's not actually living the Christian life. He's fighting for uh abortion and the Democrat party. Like I think I can separate the art from the artist. I like watching. So that's where I'd have to >> So I can too. >> Okay. >> And so and I love like Green Street Hooligans. That's probably my favorite Elijah Wood film, but he was my least favorite character. But he was a nerdy journalist that kind of got roughed up and toughed up by like this, you know, UK street gang or whatever. Okay. So, I guess I could follow, but he was just so whiny and so he was just a very annoying character to have to watch because you're trying to root for him and he just made it really difficult to root for him just because of how how he would act and how he was kind of whiny and I just I couldn't get behind him cuz I >> So, when you say whiny, like what are some of the first things that come to mind? I mean, the fir the first film was very, you know, the first hour and a half was very light and and jumpy and very happy and all that, but like he just kept having to be like bailed out by Sam a little bit and like I just it it's hard to describe like an actual individual thing. I've tried to block it from my memory, but like every time he was on screen, I was just I just wish you weren't there. >> And then another thing that actually was distracting to me was I love VO Mortynson as an actor. >> Yeah. But when I was told that Russell Crowe was supposed to play Aragorn and he's like my favorite actor of all time. I was like >> every time I saw Aragorn on screen I was like I kind of wish that was Russell Crow. >> That so that that was one thing like that made it >> you know distracting for me not saying VGO Morton did a bad job. It's like you can only shine up a turd so much VGO and so but like at the same time like can you imagine how much better it have been? You know what >> I don't agree? I don't agree at all. He wouldn't he would not have fit that character and you I love Gladiator >> Russell Crow is just an amazing actor. It just >> I think it would have taken like he wouldn't be like a good like king that was an outlaw or whatever the thing he was first ranger. >> Yeah. >> Like what's funny about me and how much I like Russell Crow's big performances. He may have been the key to me liking the entire thing. Like if he had been in it, I would have been in the theater like watching it as a kid. But tell me this uh cuz one do we know when Gladiator came out? >> 2000. >> So 2000 and then the first Lord of the Rings movie came out in 2001. >> Yeah, it would be. Yeah. >> I just think in general like you look at him as Maximus. Like there's certain there's certain actors and again it could have been one of those things where he decided no, I'm not going to do Gladiator and I'll do Lord of the Rings. And that could be a totally different story. >> Hey guys, real quick. So you're there. You're in a small town. You've been invited over to someone's house for dinner. 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And guys, if you're looking for a stocking stuffer for this Christmas season, these bottles fit really well into your average stocking. So guys, get a case of them. Give them out to all your family members. Give them out to all the people at the office. Again, that's gseasoning.com. That's golf sierraasing.com. Order today. Well, according to him, he said that he felt like who's the guy that Peter Jackson. He said he felt like Peter Jackson met with him and it felt obligatory because he was like the biggest actor on the planet at the time >> and so he felt like the studio and Peter Jackson did a meeting with him for the lead but they didn't actually want him and so he was like I want to be wanted and then they just went with VGO Mortonson instead which is apparently who Peter Jackson wanted from the beginning. That's the story according to Russ >> and that's why I think it works because it's one of those characters that he's like potentially one of the most powerful people without being a wizard. Um, and he's got this royal blood to him and the actor playing him isn't some, you know, well-known, you know, real macho man from at least my understanding that he kind of flies under the radar and he certain people you remember them for that character. And like Vgo Mortonson will always be Aragorn. >> Russell Crow will always be Maximus. And and that's the that's the way I see it is when I hear Russell Crow, I kind of cringe. Even though I love Russell Crow as an actor. >> Why cringe? Like why would that be why would he be bad? >> Because I see how well VGO played that role. I don't see anybody else. And you know that's times where it's hard to see somebody else in a role, but I don't know. You you look at a movie. This is a horrible um example, but the Han Solo movie, there's a lot of people that are like, "Ah, I feel like there's other people that could have played this role." Um, but I think we look at Maximus and like >> he's meant to play that role. He was born to play that role. VGO, I look at him born to play that role. >> And I just it >> No, I I get that. There are films like I can't imagine. So, what's funny as you were saying that I thought about two separate actors that played the same character in two separate movies and I can't imagine >> playing so walking Phoenix's Joker >> and Heath Ledger's Joker. It's the same character, completely different settings, completely different movies, but I can't imagine the Walking Phoenix Joker with any one other than Walking Phoenix. And I can't imagine the Dark Knight without Heath Ledger playing the Joker. He stole >> every single scene. Like you can't imagine Doc Holiday, right, in in Tombstone without uh uh I literally just forgot his name. Uh >> what is wrong with me? >> I think >> you know what I'm talking about. He just passed away. Like may rest in peace. I'm so sorry. Everyone's screaming at the screens right now. Yeah, he was in Top Gun and all the different things. What is going on with me? You know what I'm talking about. >> Oh my goodness. >> This is this is killed on the internet. >> This is when you know this has been like a long travel day. Um, >> both of us and I don't have my phone to where I can look it up real quick at how because of how stupid I am. So, I'm just going to like, you know, make up this dead air. >> Ladies and gentlemen, IMDb every day. >> Uh, >> and he's in heat, which is he's incredible. And Val Kilmer. There you go. Val Kilmer. I I got it before he found it. Ladies, >> see, that's what you need to do is when everybody can relate to this when you're like, "All right, I'm talking to my buddies and we're back, you know, you know, out back. We're smoking cigars. We're having a little bit of whiskey and we're like, we're thinking about this thing, that player or that actor. And then once you pull out your phone or the laptop, you start, you start typing something into Google and you're like, boom, there it is. >> You know what I mean? So, sorry to Val Kilmer and everybody that's a Val Kilmer fan, including myself, but >> he did a great job in Top Gun Maverick. Like the way that Tom Cruz utilized him and I think honored him, I thought that was one of the coolest things I've seen in a while. >> But to to go ahead and put a bow on the Lord of the Rings thing so we don't, you know, monopolize our entire time with nothing that we actually planned on talking about. So what is your your final pitch to people kmagins like me that have watched all the films with an open mind and they come to the end and they just go, "Yeah, it's just not for me. Not a fan." >> Well, I think u what I would say to people like you, this is just the clear evidence of the sin nature that absolutely just ruins and rots the mind of people. >> Oh my gosh. >> No, like I look at Lord of the Rings and some people just aren't into fantasy. And I I understand like some people just can't get past that. And people like me, I see the the world that's created by this amazing mind that God gave Tolken. And then you're able to adapt that. And then you got different people groups and different languages. And then how do you mix this in without like Harry Pottering it? You know what I mean? Where it's just kind of like we're whipping up potions and it seems like here it's such a great allegory >> for maybe the Christian life. um sin, good and evil. And I just I can't stop watching those movies. And and I think like more and more like I'll read the books and I'll reading them again and then I'll watch the movies and I just think that was one of the heights of cinema. If Lord of the Rings was made today, it would be awful. For example, Rings of Power. I don't know if I'm allowed to say >> on Amazon. Yeah, you can say whatever you want. >> It's It's cheeks. Hopefully that's the Christian way to say that. It's just awful. Okay. >> Yeah. And it is a DEI slopfest fanfiction and it is absolutely dumping on Tolken's Grave. And I think at very least you have an adaption that people might disagree with, you know, the way it's adapted from the books, but at least Peter Jackson says, "We're not inserting a lot of the cultural nonsense. It was a different time and it's going to stand the test of time." You know, they'll change the story a little bit. The way that like Aragorn's u wifey, you know, the elf is obviously, you know, she's a little bit more of a warrior. She's not necessarily that in the books. And then, you know, the way that, you know, the witch king is killed, it's not necessarily like, you know, I am I'm I'm no man. And it it's it seems like it's a maybe a better story in the book, but I watch that and it just feels like a getaway. And and I think there's a reason it won all these awards. Is there's a reason it's going to stand the test of time. There's going to be a reason that people say, "I don't really want this adapted later on because we see the nature of Hollywood and Rings of Power is terrible. the uh War of the Roherum anime movie they came out with. >> They're doing a new Chronicles in Narnia coming out which I'm already just assuming is going to be sloppy garbage. >> It sucks because they have a woman playing Alan. >> Yeah. >> You know, so I I think at very least there should be an appreciation for a faithful adaption from Peter Jackson that said, "I want to honor Tolken's life and I want to honor his work." Because we don't see that anymore. Everybody feels like they can create a better story. You see it with Rings of Power. You see that with Wheel of Time. You see that with Star Trek, every major franchise or some um and then again Chronicles of Narnia, it's the same thing. They think that they are so enlightened and the culture is now so accepting and adapting to their own form of morality and postmodernism that we will put together something better than CS Lewis or Tolken or any of these guys ever could. So, at least there should be an appreciation for the trilogy of Lord of the Rings, which is the greatest trilogy in the history of mankind. >> Well, I got to tell you, I've never been more excited to transition from one subject to another. And so, just like our culture, we just love transitioning. Uh, that's just kind of where we're at. But what I will So, I do want to talk about TPUSA because, >> you know, obviously we're living in the post Charlie Kirk era and there's a lot that's been made and a lot of thinking as to, okay, >> what is Charlie Kirk's legacy? What is the ripple effect of his assassination on our culture, on individual conservatives, on Christendom at large? >> But, you know, you haven't been there for a while, but you were at TPUSA for for a while. You kind of got to see the the organization from the inside out. And obviously, >> you know, the the way it was whenever you left versus what it was, you know, up to this year. Obviously, things can change quite a bit, but I was talking to somebody recently cuz I'm going to talk talk about this on the show. When people are like critical of Charlie Kirk and you know, we'll get into Candace Owens later, but when she publicly >> I can't wait. >> Yeah, we're it's going to be lots of fun. So, buckle up, buttercups. But when people are claiming that like the Trump administration, as Candace Owens has publicly claimed that the Trump administration is responsible for killing Charlie Kirk, I made this comment on a previous episode. I was like, if you look at individual people that are most responsible for getting Donald Trump into the White House for a second term, I would say the number one person that's most responsible is Donald Trump. >> The number two person is Joe Biden. The number three person is Kla Harris. The number four person is probably Charlie Kirk. >> And number five is probably the guy that tried shooting him in Butler, >> right? And like those people are so integrally involved in the ability for him to even have a chance. and then just the absolute sweep that he had. But anyway, that's getting into the election and the political side of things. But let's just kind of like talk talk about Charlie, talk about TPUSA and kind of where we see TPUSA going in terms of their chapters and high schools and colleges, TPUSA faith, all that stuff. >> I owe Charlie a lot. I'll preface it with that. Um, Charlie provided me a job after I got cancelled. So, anybody that is familiar with me, there's probably a lot of people that are like, I don't know this John Root guy. I worked in sports media for about a decade. Ever since I was a kid, I watched a show called Dream Job. I wanted to be the white Steuart Scott. I wanted to be the anchor and the host and reporter at ESPN. I wanted to talk about sports for a living all day, every day. I loved it. And then I worked for various different sports teams in the Bay Area. Pandemic hit, moved out to Arizona. Governor said, "You can decide for yourself when it comes to a mask." I took a gym mirror selfie. I'm like, I never take these, but when I do, it's the fact that, you know, we can decide for ourselves. God bless Arizona. God bless freedom. And then I'm cancelled. I'm done with sports media. And Turning Point USA, they provided me a job. And then I was able to cover sports from a conservative perspective. I was able to host a daily show with them. I was able to do a bunch of traveling. And it was a blessing. But also at the same time, Turning Point is the toughest place I've ever had to work. Crisis conservatism is running rampant. And even right now, like there's the rise of the woke right. There's the rise of, if people are familiar with it, don't punch right. just because the left is so bad, we're not going to keep our folks that we're technically friends with or in the same side of the political aisle accountable for clear wrongs. And for me, you know, just like I was talking earlier when we were getting bamboozled with that, you know, fake fake network and and job. >> Yeah. >> When people claim Christ, >> I we're all held to a biblical standard. And then I can't stand compromise. Like I if you you can't partner with false teachers, you cannot platform disqualified pastors, you can't continue to compromise on what God's word says. Like Vodie Bacham, he's he was one of the most influential people in my faith. Same. >> And he's he had a quote and I'm going to like butcher it, but it's like never apologize for what God says in his word. >> That's right. He was on an interview and they were talking about what the Bible says about women pastors and things like that and he just said I was like, "Yeah, I'm not going to apologize for what the what the word of God says." >> And those are one of those things where I uh and for people that don't know my story, this is not like a woe is me thing and trying to, you know, crap on Charlie's legacy because Charlie's legacy is evangelizing and being a martyr for the faith. So listen to me here. This is not crapping on Charlie or Turning Point USA, but I brought up some clear wrongs um biblically. I was working for TP USA Faith. The people we're partnering with are pushing new apostolic reformation stuff. You got people that are partnering, platforming, and promoting Benny Hinn, you know, one of the biggest charlatans in the history of America and the history of evangelicalism. And I I'm bringing up some of these things and we're compromising on, you know, elevating women pastors. You know, this is not me as some reformed guy that's looking for reformed representation. I could care less if you got John MacArthur and Vodie Bacham and Paul Washer and all all the big dogs, you know, at your conferences and connected with them doing some sort of work. It's like, no, like I see that God's giving, you know, Charlie and Turning Point USA this platform and these churches and these pastors and these ears and these eyes that people look to you guys and we need to be a good steward of it. And then eventually I got I got let go. you know, I got there was a lot of spiritual manipulation and again, this is not like my like I want to go off on some story of like a woe is me again, but I'm excited to see where the country is going. I believe it's true revival, but I also have and it's maybe you're I'm one of the first people that people are going to hear and listen say I I kind of am skeptical about what's going to be happening next with Turning Point because they've done a lot of really objectively good things. the alternate Super Bowl thing. It's like, wow. Like, this is the time to do it. And you could fight uh against the craziness of culture and the godlessness and anti-Americanism of someone like Bad Bunny and some of these sports leagues, but I TB USA faith is one of those places that I I've just seen time and time again compromise, connection with the wrong people that we're unequally yolked with from a spiritual level. So, you know, it's one of those things. I'm very thankful for my time, but I I get weary especially when politics and Christianity when they intersect and people seem to want to connect more on political expediency or political policy and compromise on doctrine than it is to stay true to what the Bible says which is our standard. >> So is it an overall pragmatism that you felt like because when did you leave TPOS? >> That would have been 2023. >> Okay. Okay. So, 2023, there was a stark change in Charlie Kirk's presentation 20 into 2023, all 2024 into 2025 >> where things were cuz it it went from conservative but also Christian to seemingly Christian but also conservative. You know, why why conservative at all? Because upstream of that, Christian values, biblical doctrine, those types of things. And again, everyone has their own personal doctrines and and things that they're raised up in their way of interpreting the Bible. But there are >> Charlie was connected with someone like Frank Turk. So if anybody listened to the memorial, like Frank's a a great friend of mine. We got some differences theologically, but he's in a great he's a great apologist. He really knows how to connect to the younger generation and created a great friendship and mentorship for Charlie. And Charlie, you could see just like you're saying, grew, seemingly grew in sanctification. The kind of conversations he was having. Oh, yeah. Over those last few years. It's inspiring. It should inspire everyone to be like, "Wow, I'm afraid to even bring this stuff up with my family." And this guy's going out just telling his security guys. And his security guys are amazing. I hate to see the way they've been attacked. Yeah. And like sorry to cut you off here and stuff, but there are so many people that have received so many vile attacks and the right needs to figure out their conspiracy leanings. Like everything's a conspiracy now ever since co you know everything's there's some sort of deep state connection to it or there's some sort of foreign influence and it's just like there are so many good people that you're ruining their lives. I mean look at Frank Turk. Oh, he's the guy in the white hat signaling to where Frank Turk has to release a statement via his ministry saying that's me in the video. I was there as a guest of Charlie Kirk. He's like a son to me. I watched him die. I was his mentor. I wasn't signaling to the shooter and any of that. But I feel like John, >> it's disgusting. Like, oh, it makes me it makes me so mad. It really is evil. Yeah. Probably the best explanation I've heard of this whole conspiratorial right thing has been from Ben Shapiro because he said the convenience of >> Watch out, you might upset some people. >> I don't want to upset all the people that, you know, just love the Jews out there, right? Don't worry, we'll get to Candace Owens here in a second. >> He's Jewish. >> Uh, oh yeah, I don't know if you knew that. Wears a funny hat all the time. Very thick eyebrows. But Ben Shapiro explained it. He's like the convenient thing for a conspiracy theorist or the conspiratorial right >> is they can always just enlarge the conspiracy size. Yeah. >> And so, okay, the conspiracy is the guy in the white hat who's working directly with uh with the shooter. Oh, that's rank Turk. That's not actually a real thing. Oh, well then the entire security team was in on it. Let's look at video of all the different security guys. Well, that guy was standing funny. He doesn't look like he was standing the same way he's always been standing. Okay, that that all checks out. And then it's like, "Oh, well then it's bigger." And then it's the Trump administration. And then it's, "Oh, it's the Jews. It's Netanyahu. And there's this." And then then it's special revelation. Charlie came to me in a dream and, you know, for whatever reason visited his non-wife in a dream and, you know, didn't visit Erica or something like that. Don't worry, we'll get to Candace Owens. But like that that's the thing about the conspiracy side of things is just because it's plausible doesn't mean it's probable. And I follow AAM's razor pretty closely, which if you're not familiar with AA's razor, that's just the the the solution or the explanation with the least amount of things contingent upon one another is probably the most likely one that's true. >> Mh. >> Because at this conspiratorial side of things, when Joe Biden's in office, it's like, oh, the federal government's inept and they can't do anything right and blah blah blah. I can't even get my license fast at the DMV. But also there's this cabal of lizard people that are controlling everything and they're financed by the Jews and oh it's just a well orchestrated machines. Like guys which is it? Like come on. Well, because it's right now we live in a day and age where COVID happened and we're being told that we're supposed to think that we're crazy for even just asking questions. And then now people take the goodwill of people watching a horrifi horrific political assassination of a warrior, a martyr like Charlie Kirk, and they're like, I want to get down to the, you know, the foundation of this. I want to know like what really happened, right? Um, and people will take that goodwill. They will provide that carrot. They'll dangle that carrot. It's like, we just got to ask questions. You're not asking questions. You're insinuating things. That's exactly >> making statements via a question. >> That's what people like Candace Owens are doing. and the fact that people can't see through it and the special revelation stuff in order to seem more authoritative. She's saying that God is providing special revelation through Charlie to her saying that he got betrayed. There's there's and there's also too this is what televangelists do, right? >> People like Benny Hinn and Paula White that's unfortunately the head of the White House faith office, which is an absolute joke. I I don't know why people don't call that out more. I I I I feel like I I'm a crazy person. I take a dream into the void. Like how could she possibly >> these pastors keep going and going and going and going and it's just like you don't need to make some major scene, but why are you supporting this? But like going back to this is what televangelists do. They tell you if you donate to this, you watch this, you like this, you comment here, support my work, there's going to be the truth that comes out. tell evangelists say, "You tithe like this, you donate like this, you're going to get spiritual blessings." It's along the same lines. And then they make you think that mainstream media is just so unbelievably manipulated and there's the powers that be that are just speaking through them that you have to trust independent journalists. Candace Owen's like, "I'm the only person really asking questions here. You are insinuating things. You are putting people that have worked their butt off for Charlie for years. People I knew on the production team, security guys that were great friends like Frank Turk and mentors. Um, you are putting a bullseye on those people and making people think. I disagree with Turning Point USA in a lot of different ways, but there's no way, especially with even the differences I'd have with Charlie. I would never use this time for clicks, clout, and coin. Yeah, >> there's a lot of things I could share about my time there. I don't need to. I'm appreciative of Charlie. I would never use his name and his legacy in vain and then have people think, you know what, why doesn't Erica just like disavow this stuff and debunk it? She's thinking about at a lot of those times, I haven't even buried my husband yet. Yep. I don't care about this buffoon that thinks they're still my best friend or my husband's best friend. People have to start realizing this that you are being manipulated. You were always thinking that the left is trying to manipulate. There is a very powerful group on the right and independent creators and podcasters that are trying to manipulate you and they are making millions and millions of dollars off you being a willful idiot. Well, yeah, being gullible for one. Well, I mean, we can go further into the Candace Owens thing because this is kind of my this is kind of like my history with Candace Owens. So, around the Blexit stuff, I thought she was fantastic. She was really interesting. The way she presented herself and her arguments I thought was really interesting and and really good. >> And then she goes over the Daily Wire and I'm I'm a fan of the Daily Wire. Like a lot of stuff that that they do and you know the the shows and things that they produce. I'm like, "Oh, this is enormous." Like >> they were at their peak then. Yeah. They were rolling. >> And then I watched her documentary about BLM and I can't explain it really. My wife and I watched it together and I mean she mentioned to you to you downstairs like, you know, my wife was like, "Wow." Oh, like she she's beautiful and she's smart and she's got all these things and so she just kind of bought everything because she liked the presentation. But for whatever reason, I'm like this this just sounds weird. Like some of the arguments and some of the edits I was like it just didn't settle well with me for whatever reason. And I I went into it like jacked. I'm like, "Dude, this is so cool. I can't I can't wait to watch this documentary because of how much, you know, BLM was able to just run rampant." Like obviously they're like I'm preaching the choir but >> you've seen it. I saw it. Everybody saw it. It's like you're destroying cities. You got, you know, Democrat politicians and the powers that be that are so supportive of it. Sports leagues are plastering this all over the place and making white people feel racist. So when you see someone that seemingly is going to just blow blow the lid off it, it's like, let's roll, Candace. I'm supportive. Let's start. >> And then when she left Daily Wire, I was like or pushed out, however, whatever way you want to look at it. I had kind of like this moment of introspection. I'm like, wait a minute. Is Candace right or are Ben Shapiro and company right? Because obviously because of non-competes and and different, you know, legal things, they weren't really really throwing as much, you know, mud as they could have like on her way out. I was like, "This is just strange." And then I basically ignored Candace Owens. She just didn't pop up on my feed. You know, I I wasn't listening to her show. No one was sending me, "Oh, you got to see this thing that Candace Owens just said." And then around the time maybe about a week after Charlie Kirk was assassinated, I'm just getting a deluge of messages and emails from people like, "Hey, what are your thoughts on this Candace Owens thing? Hey, why haven't you commented on what Candace Owens has been saying? Hey, do you think Candace Owens has a point?" And I was like, I was busy. I was in Jacksonville for Saturated at the time. I was getting my own thoughts together about the Charlie Kirk assassination and what it meant for our country and our culture and all the different things. And I literally like I would go to Twitter and I would like type in Candace Owens into the search bar and you know depending on your algorithm and what you know Twitter's wanted to show you. It was some you know a picture from 2023 and then it was a clip from yesterday and then it was a blah blah and so I couldn't surmise a narrative of even what she was saying >> and then yeah I remember you text and I text you I'm like John I either I'm stupid or I'm just I my research abilities have gone in the toilet. Can you please help me understand what she's even saying? So, I was basically, hey, be a journalist, not an edit editor or an editorializer. Like, tell me what she's saying. And so, you just sent me these clips and these tweets and different things. Here's what she's saying. Here's what she's claiming. And as I was working my way through the stuff that you sent me, the thing that was overwhelming to me is like, she's making a lot of huge claims and providing no receipts at all, >> but she's teasing that she's going to give receipts, >> right? But just join, you know, pay to go behind her payw wall. And whenever whenever she was like putting private messages, text messages between her and Charlie behind her payw wall, that just felt icky to an extreme degree. Now, all of us make money doing this, like we have sponsors and we have donors. Like, we have all that stuff. But I can't imagine doing that. Like, I remember telling my editor when Joby Martin and I did a reaction episode the the day after Charlie was killed. I was like, "Hey, no intro ads, like no no normal ad breaks, like nothing. Like, make sure there is nothing." And my system defaults to adding ads. I was like, "As soon as it posts, you got to go in there and delete him immediately." Cuz I was like, "I don't even want to be seen as possibly profiting from the assassination of this guy." >> And let me cut you off real quick. I was so enraged when I was seeing the videos of Charlie's assassination being shot shared over and there are certain people that were sharing that >> because it's news >> and they're trying and but there's people that are taking that uncensored and it's just like I can't believe this. I just you are doing this for followers, you're doing it for clout and you're doing it for money. I could never imagine Like I I would never send that out there. >> Like I there still to this day there was a part of me it's like I wish I didn't see it but now I do because I know what we're up against. But people that kept sharing it. You weren't doing that because you're just trying to share breaking news and help people out and you know provide information. >> You're doing it because you're hoping you're going to get retweets. That that kind of stuff is so disgusting. And that's just one factor of what you're talking about is now people putting together just YouTube video after YouTube video after YouTube video and then my sponsor and then donate here and support my work and then this is coming next. It's all manipulative marketing. Well, and I again I'm I'm a capitalist. I'm an entrepreneur and I understand all those different things, but this was the conversation that led to Joby Martin and I recording an episode uh about the the assassination. The day after it happened, I called him in the middle of the afternoon and we're we're like stacked. So, our schedules cuz we were doing ministry stuff at the church like for it was like Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, all the way through Sunday. We were stacked. And I go, "Hey, I can't like I was having trouble sleeping last night. I'm having trouble concentrating." And I'm just getting inundated with messages from people that are like frustrated. They're wondering if we're at war, like what do we do next? And I was like, and as he has said, he's like, "Look, dude, I'm the pastor. You're the prophet." Not like telling the future, but like you know, you're the guy speaking, you know, throwing grenades into culture and I'm the guy leading a flock. And I just said, "I think you and I need to record an episode just talking about this to kind of surmise where we're at." And he goes, "Done. Let's do it." And then so that that came out 2 days after the assassination. And so, but I just as we've worked our way to this point, just peek behind the curtain. This morning, I shared a video of Candace Owens. I think she posted this yesterday, so this would have been on October the 23rd. >> Mhm. >> She posted a video where she directly made the allegation that the Trump administration killed Charlie Kirk. And this is on top of her getting special revelation in her dreams, which is a non-falsifiable claim, which I'm not a huge fan of. I'm I'm a fan of falsifiable claims or certifiable claims, not non-falsifiable ones. >> She's getting these numbers in her dreams and she's having visions. >> And so I post the video >> and I I put in, you know, the the real or whatever. It's like Candace Owens, you know, accuses Trump administration of assassinating Charlie Kirk. But in my comment, I just I said I said a few things and I was like, whenever I talk about Candace Owens, I'm shocked at the number of people that tell me I can't criticize her and that I shouldn't criticize her and all those different things. But I said, >> you know what that sounds a lot like? >> What's the left? >> Well, it also starts like uh like a C word and then there's a U and there's an L and there's a T. It's called a cult. >> Yep. Yeah. Because it's a you someone can't be wrong. Like and I tell people all the time like don't put your faith in me and my opinions. I'm a podcaster, right? and you know, don't don't put your faith in your favorite, you know, basketball player, your favorite pastor, any of those things that let you down. But I was just telling these people, I was like, the the odds of her being right about this stuff versus the odds of her being a psychopath, the odds are higher on the psychopath side. And I I I don't mean that as a as a derissive term. I mean that literally. I mean roughly 1 to 2% of the population is psych has psychopathy or sociopathy as part of their personality mixture. Right? Some of those people turn into axe murderers, okay? And then some of those people just turn into master manipulators. And if they have oratory skills with a marketing budget, that's an incredibly dangerous human being, right? That's why I've said before Andy Stanley is one of the most dangerous, you know, Christian leaders in America is because of how great he is at speaking, right? in his ability >> and also too like he's he's able to use his father's legacy and just like she Candace Owens she was some godless leftist that happened to jump on the Joe Rogan podcast at one time and then she started working for Prageru and then she was defending Israel there and then she was following along with you know all this that and the other thing and then she's doing some work with or she might have been with Charlie before that like >> I think it was Prager you first and then it was TPO then it was Daily Wire >> and then yeah this is Daily Wire and then you know she's at this time where she's like, "All right, well now I'm Protestant and then I go to Daily Wire and then I I get married and now I'm going to be Roman Catholic." She's being tossed to and fro by every which way of doctrine. Biblically speaking, like why should she be any sort of reputable force um uh or personality for religion, you know, just just solely there and then she knows how to build up an audience like these people are really really good at it. They're seeing why are people like Nick Fuentes, you know, gaining such a following? Cuz there is a susceptible group of people that want to feel like, oh, I'm a part of this community. I'm really asking questions. Maybe there is something bigger going on. And then I'm looking for again community. I'm looking for people that seemingly are fighting for truth or, you know, standing firm. And it's a, you know, a faux sense of masculinity. It's a faux sense of actually standing for Christ because look at people like Candace Owens. The way she used Christ as king. I was getting annihilated online when I was calling out that she's using the Lord's name in vain. She used that as a political and personal rallying cry after she seemingly got pushed out from Daily Wire. Yep. She hated Ben Shapiro. She doesn't like the Jews. She's using it as a dunk on Jews. Sure, we can look to Philippians and anytime I'm pretty sure it's Philippians that like whether it's like selfish ambition, vain conceit, you whether you're preaching Christ, you know, for yourself or not, we can still rejoice that Christ's name is being proclaimed, but we can also call out real wrongs. And then she's selling merchandise and cups with insulated cups with Christ's king. You're using Christ's name to elevate yourself. >> You know what it's a derivative of is remember when people are like, "How can you be against Black Lives Matter? Do you think black lives don't matter? Yeah. >> It's like, no, no, no, no. This is not a statement. This is an organization that has ideologies that are antithetical to a Christian worldview. >> And so when she was saying Christ is king, she wasn't saying that as like a statement >> because as believers, as evangelicals, you and I would agree with the statement of Christ is king. Of course, right? >> That's not what she was communicating. She was communicating that as like a a dunk on the Jews, right? in in you know kind of like getting back at Ben Shapiro and all those different things. And so that's whenever I I posted I was like >> and that's sin that's sinful that's sinful. It's still a truthful statement but it's sinful using the Lord's name in vain like that. And that's where you see how biblically illiterate and like I just get riled up about this stuff because >> I I care about Jesus Christ more than anything. I care about his word more than anything. >> More than my more than my wife, more than my kid. That is the number one in my life. And when people are trying to manipulate others, that's why I get so riled up about people like Benny Hinn, Paula White, Candace Owens, and people like Nick Fentes that use that term, too. It's the Lord's name in vain, but people can't see through it because they think that by any means necessary, we need to dunk on or destroy our enemy. And a lot of people now are saying our enemy are the Jews. But they can't say, is it religious Jews? Are they ethnic Jews? It's the state of Israel. what like what is it? And in general, I just I don't see like fight for the truth and get to the bottom of things and and I can respect that and true investigative journalism, but when you're using Christ's name and special revelation and monetizing off uh his name, that's when people need to start asking questions as Christians and be like, "Wait a minute. You know, I my discernment meter is going off. I I don't like what I'm seeing here. And let me ask some questions. What's the point of this? What's the foundation of this? And it just seems like time and time again, I hate seeing people on the right use Christ's name in vain and use it for their own personal and political gain. It's happening over and I that's what got me riled up at Turning Point USA at times where I know there's politicians that are campaigning on Christ and they're not living for it. Yes. It's so much better than the left. The left is totally godless. And I don't believe there's any justification to support the Democrat party of the modern-day America right now. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that we can't call out wrongs. And that's why people get mad at us at times. And I don't mean for this to go off um into another rabbit trail, so cut me off. But that's where there's times where, you know, Trump, I think, has said some things or insinuated some things that seem kind of blasphemous, like God made Trump. that ad video like at very least this is making me squirmy you know and um you know did God actually save him from that bullet but you know the man behind him got like allowed to be killed like how are we using this kind of language how can we have a proper discussion theologically while at the same time showing true appreciation um for Trump and the conservative movement and the Republican party at times but that's why I wish more people would realize like maybe you should be defending God's word more more than you're defending Candace Owens, more than you're defending your favorite show. You know, something like The Chosen. I could I could go over my individual story with with uh with Candace and that might ruffle some feathers um people watching or listening this, but in in general, I just I don't understand why people don't get it. >> Well, so I do want to get into the personal thing, but I do want to bring up an important point just so just in case people missed it. >> People think taking the Lord's name in vain is saying GD. >> Yeah. >> Right. Or oh my god. Like that's what they think taking the Lord's name in vain is. No, it's using the Lord's name to personally prosper, right? And so you could look at someone like Benny Hinn who's come up quite a bit and you know Coasty came on the show and we we talked about his uncle and a lot of different things there. >> Great guy. >> Yeah. Great great guy in Arizona as well. >> Casty is a great guy. Not Benny guys. >> Yeah. And so the the the thing that's important is most Christians don't understand the context and the meaning of that verse when they talk about taking the Lord's name in vain. And so yes, if you are a polit politician that is not a Christian and yet you feain Christianity in order to get yourself votes, you're using the Lord's name in vain. Like so categorically that is a sinful thing that we are not to do, right? It's elucidated in the Old Testament. But go ahead >> because God deserves all the glory and all the honor. That's what people need to remember. It's like if you're looking for glory and honor, even the little bit, even a little bit, you're using the Lord's name in vain, >> right? >> And and we all we all fall short. There's times where like we, you know, we want to continue to preach Christ and we're not, we're going to fall short. We're going to not live up to it. But there are so many people in politics that do that time and time again, but they don't actually go to church. They don't serve at church. They don't know anything uh about the Bible, but they know that there's a susceptible group of people that will do anything um to just have their ear tickled by somebody that just brings up something that sounds Christian. Well, and then think about it this way, like if you're being discipled by somebody, what what are the things that they're pointing you to? Because I even look at it this way. Um, we're storing up treasures for heaven. So, let's say that's your mindset, right? Man, I'm trying to get it. I'm going to do this good deed cuz it's going to give me another gold brick in my driveway in heaven. Well, what do we do with the crowns when we get to heaven? We lay them at the feet of the Lord anyway. Y, right? And so, it's like everything that we're gaining is not for us, right? But out of the overabundance of love for his creation, we have an ability to be in the presence of the father for eternity. But I do want to kind of get back to your your personal interactions and your personal experience with Candace because it's one thing for me as an outsider. Never talked to her, never met her and been a fan of hers and all the way now to where I'm like, yikes, y'all. We just can't listen to a person like this. Like this is not do not let her give you advice on scripture. Do not let her give you advice on the culture or news or nothing. And the thing is is, you know, blind squirrels find nuts from time to time. >> But that's kind of thing like Alex Jones, he's always shooting for the moon. So when he's right, he's crazy right. And when he's wrong, he's crazy wrong. >> And look at what happened when he was wrong. >> Right. It ruined it's it's ruined his entire life. And Sandy Hook stuff was it was egregious. He thought he was right, but he wasn't. He kind of got high on his own farts because he was so right about so many things for so long. >> But then somebody and that's somebody I see that doesn't have accountability. >> Yeah. You know, and that's where we're seeing people like Candace go rogue. Like they don't have accountability. Where's her husband? But like because I I would just I would just have to think that I think his name is George Farmer is just like I can't control my woman or he's just like if you're totally on board with what she's doing, you have fallen as an authority figure, um a leader, provider, and protector. you're not living up to the biblical values that uh husbands should be. >> Yeah. So you you have an insider perspective because you have like individual experiences with her. So let's let's talk a little bit about that because that's informed the way the way you think about her in her work now. >> Cuz now when people hear so much about Candace like it's the same thing. They're like well has she been doing this stuff for a while? I think she was doing some good stuff. I was a fan of her. Like you know she's been pulling this manipulative marketing and these have truths and false reporting for a long time. And I know that personally when the chosen pride flag scandal came out, I was the person that ended up seeing some small account on I think it was might have been Twitter at the time, maybe it wasn't quite X yet, share a screenshot of a pride flag on the set of the chosen. So I went and watched their promo video. It was a behind-the-scenes video and it was within like the first minute, I'm pretty sure. and it was prominent. You know, when you have a show like that that has so much prominence uh and such a platform, your editors know exactly what they're doing. Dallas Jenkins knows exactly what is in the frame of these shots and they know that as it's shoot is as it's being shot, as they're editing, and that they're distributing this that that is going to be front and center. And you can't deny that that was just like, oh, that just kind of happened to be there. So, I took a screenshot um and I let people know exactly uh what promo video it was from and I said, "Hey, at The Chosen, why is there a pride flag on the side of your show?" And they defended it. They defended it. And from there, I was shocked. I I I couldn't believe a show that was supposedly about honoring the authentic Jesus would defend something that is in diabolical opposition to what the authentic Jesus preached about and teached about and seemingly what you guys are promoting your show. And this was on top of a lot of question marks I had about The Chosen. And people settle down. I know there's a lot of people that really like The Chosen. Um and I I posted plenty of things where I want to provide people like at least some discernment. Think about this before you watch. So once I defended it, I came out and said, "I believe that this is grounds to boycott the show if you're going to defend this." U and then just a crap storm from there. And this was the same uh week that I ended up getting let go from Turning Point USA. And there's prominent actors on the show that are calling me and the people that funded the show homophobic and you know get out of here, close the door on your way out. It's like the reason your show is so prominent is cuz people that are saying like Dallas like make a statement about this. Like why are you allowing this? If you allow a pride flag, like would you allow like a MAGA flag on set? Because if I saw that too, I'd be like this kind of seems out of place. Um, I I don't believe that that's, you know, something you need on the set of a show about Jesus. And then from there, uh, Dallas ended up, you know, responding. All these actors ended up responding. And then who ends up covering it after I get fired from Turning Point USA is Candace Owens. And then she goes out here and she's like, "Oh, this whole chosen pride flag scandal." And she said, "This sleuth, former employee at Turning Point USA, John Ruth." So, basically just saying that I'd just been looking for something for the chosen and I finally found that thing and then now I can try to bury it. She made me out to be some just zealous, irrational uh religious buffoon that doesn't believe that gay people should have jobs. She didn't provide any anything in her reporting about what Dallas Jenkins said, how The Chosen responded to me, what any of the countless actors on the show that play uh Jesus' disciples said to me and others, and how they've promoted homosexuality and deconstructionism. It was all about me and how I don't believe that gay people should have jobs. Never once have I said that. And never once did I ever attack that cameraman that had been allowed to wear to wear pride gear to have a pride flag. And from there, she uh just slandered me to her millions and millions of followers. And I called her out on it. I'm like, "You need to have my side of the story. or if you don't hear my side of the story, you need to give people the full picture because this is slanderous. This is essentially liable. Um, and if you're going to continue to protect the chosen, I didn't know why until days later. She started promoting the Hallow app. And who is prominently featured in the Hallow app? Jonathan Roomie that plays Jesus on the Chosen. And she was happy to show for the Hallow app. >> And that's where I see Candace has been doing this for a long time. And this might just this is obviously just like nothing compared to what she's doing now, but she's able to manipulate her audience to be like, see someone like this that I genuinely care about Jesus Christ and his word, and I would want to see the chosen actually be held to a biblical standard. Why are you promoting, you know, uh, bisexuality, homosexuality, transgenderism? You're saying that you're supportive of this as as a group and you're fine with this pride flag, but you know what about other flags? What about other like political statements? They've they've made their bed and they have to sleep in it. And someone like Candace decided to protect them and not just protect them, manipulate her audience into believing that I'm the bad guy. Disagree with me when it came to boycotting them. But Candace has been doing this for a very long time. She refused to have a conversation with me. I reached out to people that were connected to her and her show. They and she continued to just leave it on red and finally got to a point where she just blocked me. She would not That's what she does. When people finally get to this point where they feel bold enough to call her out on something and keep her to account, she'll block you or she'll try to destroy you. and she's now become more and more prominent, more powerful, and that's why I think she feels like she can say anything. Hey guys, real quick, you've probably heard the phrase, "Ignorance is bliss," right? Well, some of you are ignorant about where the beef that you buy at the grocery store comes from and what it took to get to you. So, that single package of grocery store ground beef can contain meat from over 100 different cows, sometimes from multiple countries. And if one of those cows was sick or mishandled in some way, it's mixed right into your dinner. So, most people don't realize that some ground beef at the store isn't just beef either. 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If you're still on the fence, it's probably because you've been eating too much soy, drying your emote tears with your bangs, and you've forgotten what real food tastes like. Primal Beef can help with that. Try Primal Beef out today by going to primalbeef.com. That's primalbeef.com. Use the promo code kyle to get 25 bucks off your first order. Again, that's primalbeef.com, promo code kyle, to get $25 off your first order. She's definitely emboldened right now. And that's that's kind of like typical grifter behavior. >> Yeah. >> And so again, I don't want to make allegations as a non-clinian, but someone that has sociopathy or psychopathy or any of those types of things, those people will tend to move from area to area and relationship to relationship after they've burned the people in the bridges. They will just move and they'll kind of restart the grift or or whatever the thing is. >> So, it wouldn't be shocking to me if that eventually was the case there. But I I think it's about the voices that people are allowing to influence the way that they think. Because here, I've already mentioned Ben Shapiro on the show. So when I hear Ben Shapiro talk about any topic, I know that a core doctrine of his life is conservative Judaism, is traditional Judaism, right? Like he's an orthodox Jew. >> And so when I hear him cover Israel, I've got that in mind. The same way that when I'm watching Harold Reynolds uh do a breakdown of a of a clip, you know, World Series game one is tonight. When I'm hearing him break down a clip, I know that he played for a long time in the league and then he's been a commentator on baseball for his entire life. Y >> and so he's using his background and experience to inform his opinions. >> But you know who I wouldn't listen to about their political opinions? Harold Reynolds, right? I don't I don't want to know what he thinks about the foreign policy. So, you're telling me that ESPN should stop talking about politics? >> Probably not the best uh thing to be continue getting, you know, your political opinions Stephen A. Smith. Paging Steen A. Smith. >> Yeah. Your political opinions from dorks that aren't even good at commentating on baseball. Ryan Clark's the worst. But, you know, that that's just kind of one of those things like with someone like her, my this is my message to people out there. So, if you if you know, love, and trust me for whatever reason, right? There are voices that I would tell you here are some people that you should listen to, right? And people can disagree with me, right? People are fans of Joby and not fans of Joby Martin. I'm connected with Matt Chandler. Fans of Matt Chandler, not fans of Matt Chandler. I've had different people on the show that have large followings and and have said and done some incendiary things and I put him out there for you. So Tim Kennedy recently, right? So it came out that, you know, he was uh guilty of an egregious level of stolen valor. Well, I've done some things with Tim Kennedy. I was a guest of his in Washington DC for his book Launch Party. I had him on the show and I'm but I'm one of the few prominent podcasters that has not deleted his episode >> because Joo Willing deleted his episode with him. Uh I think Andy Stump did, Chad Robacho did. All these people have deleted the episode quietly. But for me, I'm like no, we did the episode. It exists out there. But I do have a new caption that I've added, a new like, hey, it's been found out since this interview that many of the things in the book that were discussed on this interview were facious and we don't know exactly how far the lie goes. Y >> and so keep that in mind as you're listening to this. >> But that's the nice part. It's like you can go back and be like, okay, >> you can know I've built up social capital with my audience. That's what you're telling people. It's like you trust me and I appreciate that and you're helping support the work that I do here. And so if I give you if I tell you, hey, be cautious of Candace Owens. I'm not telling you you can't listen to her ever again or unless you be a [ __ ] or you're sinning if you're listening to Candace Owens. But it's like, hey, if you listen to Candace Owens, here are some things that she believes because like I love Albert Mohler. Listen to him every morning. I don't agree with Albert Mohler on everything. But I trust that I can tell you you should listen to Albert Mohler and accept, reject, redeem. Right? Accept the things that are acceptable. reject things that are rejectable and redeem the things that can be redeemed. But so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to lend my social capital to other people that so that they can trust people that I think are not going to lead them down the primrose path to hell. >> And if you're if you're ever going to double down on something like Tim Kennedy, you know, it's just like you're totally going to disregard the facts. Like that's not the way you go about things. That's the way Candace goes about things. She will constantly figure out and someone that people need to if you have ex go to Nathan Livingstone. It's Milkbar TV. He has done some of the most amazing work on the Candace Owens saga and you know where she's come from, what she's doing now, the exposing the lies. There's people out there that are doing great work. We can't do all of that. But there's times where we say like, "Hey, at very least the discernment meter is going off, red flags are going off. And I'm going to encourage you to actually get into God's word. Maybe think about something as simple as Christians, we can come together. It's like how should we be viewing special revelation?" you know, do we do we need some sort of special revelation now, right? And if that special revelation actually can't be, you know, debunked somehow like you were bringing up earlier, you know, at very at very least we should be asking questions about this like why do we believe that Candace is now like spiritually legitimized because of this? You know, should I be believing this as a Christian? like we can at least come together from those standpoints without feeling like all right now I need to give some sort of amazing breakdown of like the foreign aid that we give Israel and then it's just like >> you don't need to get that far into it like >> it's like when we're kids you know when you play you know paper rock scissors or rock paper scissors whatever order you said the game was in but then you have these games where oh it just gets wild and then it's like oh I throw infinity dynamite down and then it's like oh well that can't be beaten so it's like then why are we playing so it's the same thing like if a pastor were to ever God told me this and it doesn't comport with the Bible. I'm okay with God communicated to me. So if someone's saying, "God, I feel like God communicated to me. I feel like through the Holy Spirit, I was given a message." Again, explain why so many Muslims in the Middle East are coming to to faith in Christ because Christ is visiting them in their dreams. So there's some special revelation that's coming to individual image bearsers. But if someone's saying, "I got this special revelation. You can't have it, but you got to believe it because I said it and God gave it to And if you say that he didn't, like that's heresy because what that is isnosticism. It's an appeal to a special kind of knowledge that can't be debunked. And again, as Christians, we have to have some sort of a limiting mechanism for the way that we can port ourselves, which is one of the biggest issues with Catholicism is, okay, what if the Pope, Pope Leo, if he's when he's not too busy praying over blocks of ice, like if Pope Leo says something that doesn't comport with the Bible, not the catechism, which is not a real thing, but like the Bible, who's who has authority to whose authority do we appeal to, the vicor of Christ or to the word of God? You talk about using the Lord's name in vain. Vicor of Christ I think is one of the most egregious things we will ever see on this earth, >> right? We don't have to get into a huge like diet tribe on Catholicism because we have other things. >> But but but even something something like that like people need to realize that >> there's excuses being made. They're being made for Candace Owens. Y >> they're being made for like even someone like bring up a pastor Mark Driscoll. He said that he got special revelation about Charlie. He said he got special revelation about what his old elders at Mars Hill were going to do. But like you you have to start thinking like, okay, is this serving an individual purpose? Um, and I can't necessarily go to like God's word and they're just like, uh, I it doesn't necessarily speak to this specific situation that happened with this pastor and his elders or this person that claims that this person's their good friend that just got assassinated. And then you got the pope that you're constantly making excuses as Catholics saying he's authoritative until he's not. >> Right? >> Like you can't >> he's authoritative, but I don't agree with his opinion on this. Like whoa, wait a minute. >> Can't do that. >> And and that's where um at at very least it's just like there are going to be Roman Catholics that listen to this and they just get upset and then be like, "Oh, what about these people?" And it's just like, "All right, we can point fingers so many times at pastors, me, and others that like fall short." And there's plenty of people that we can bring up and have brought up on this show that use the Lord's name in vain. They manipulate people. They don't actually live by God's word. They just use it for their own personal, political, and financial gain. But when you have someone that considers themselves in the spot of Christ, the vicor of Christ, how do you justify these things when they have like I don't know how you can be pro-life uh and fight against abortion but also want the death penalty, right? there is because when the Bible's not when the Bible's not your standard, >> you get in dangerous territory, right? >> And that's obviously the big difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics. So this >> I constantly our um response to that would be like, you know, Pope, you know, Mr. Mr. Big uh Chicago sports fan over here like >> yeah, >> how do you justify that biblically? like give give me a biblical understanding of why the death penalty is wrong. You know, let's have let's have an honest >> affirmative case for your position >> instead of just some just soft like, well, let's fight against abortion, but if we really want to hold people to account for murdering people, you know, I don't know if that's necessarily pro-life. It's like that's postmodernism. You know, if we believe that God is the same yesterday, today, and always, his word is the same yesterday, today, and always, that doesn't change with the culture. That's what deconstructionism tries to do. And obviously, there's aspects of Roman Catholicism, let me ruffle some feathers, have deconstructed the faith. You have the Council of Trent that anathize the gospel. >> Yeah. >> And and people need to be reminded of those things because we know some great Roman Catholics. You know, this isn't in a personal attack on you Roman Catholic watching this or listening to this. It's the same thing. I have friends that are Mormon. One of my best friends since high school is Mormon. And anytime you have something to say pushing back against people saying, you know, Mormons aren't Christian, you know, even though you can try to say like, well, Jesus Christ is in our name, uh, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day. It's not a Christian culture. or >> I I love I love my buddy and have so many great conversations and have for a long time. So, this isn't a personal attack on him. This is more from an objective standpoint. What is the truth? We know the gospel to be the truth. We know when it is uh authority is put on the same level uh like tradition is put on the same level as biblical authority. That's a dangerous place to be. That's what obviously happened with the reformation. You see people you talk about special special revelation Joseph Smith and then he became the arbiter of what truth was the new revealed truth that he has to be the only person that could look into this hat and translate the Book of Mor. Start asking these questions. Why just decades ago were black people seeing like their skin was like was a curse and now you got like the top college basketball player, black dude playing for BYU. I like at times like I just think it's funny. >> Yeah. Because they got a special revelation that oh actually black people can be a part of the Mormon church. >> Special revelation. I think we can drink Dr. Pepper now. Like we should be able to laugh about these things but also at the same time like I I want to cry because it's like man >> we have just been manipulated over and over and over. This is a story of even the Jews um in the Old Testament. They literally got rescued from horrific persecution in Egypt and then they just have a few tough times and they want to put together a golden calf. This is this is their mindset. This is sin nature. We're constantly in rebellion against God and then now we get that rebellion to manipulation through podcasters, cult movements, uh religions, you know, all these things. Like we care about people so much. We want them to have the truth and the peace that comes with that. Like I have so much peace in knowing that I'm saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. I have so and then that should lead to a humbleness in the way that you reach out to people and do apologetics. And I don't do that perfect. I've fallen short with that plenty of times. But I want people to know what that peace and fulfillment looks like in a relationship with Jesus Christ. And I hope that anytime like we have these kind of conversations, I don't see fruit from Candace Owens. I'm not seeing fruit from Nick Fuentes. We're not seeing fruit from a lot of these people um that claim to be, you know, doing this for God in some sense, whether they're saying that just flat out. And and that's where I hope that people start to realize that, you know, you are being manipulated. People aren't actually doing this for Christ. There's real issues that are going on. It's not just the left that's our enemy. You know, your biggest enemy is the person that, you know, gives you just an ounce of truth. That's why false teachers are so effective. They'll there's going to be times where you could watch a Benny Hinn sermon, a Joel Ostein sermon, name the false teacher, and be like, "Well, that that actually that's the truth. >> That drives Yeah, that's like that clip is is actually spot on. There's going to be times where you could literally read uh without knowing that it comes from the Book of Mormon, be like, "Oh, that sounds sounds pretty spot-on." But when you understand who that's coming from and the foundation of that um and who they're actually doing that for, hopefully people, you know, with being filled with the Holy Spirit can actually have discernment to fight against these things and work through this discernment. Um because I I'm just seeing people over and over and over again get manipulated and not like we are just like the smartest guys on the planet or something like but there's times where we see a wrong and we want to save other people from you know the slaughter. >> Yeah. So it's it's your directive to try to you know push people towards human flourishing which you can only flourish in in if you're doing the things of God the things that God would want you to do. But also, we live in maybe the most biblically illiterate time in human history whenever there's more ubiquity of the Bible than anywhere else. Because most people, especially here in the South, they've got a stack of Bibles on the bookshelf, but they've got an inch of dust on them because they're just additions to, you know, a bookshelf. They're they're not really a thing that's core to their life. >> But I do want to go back to you brought up Mark Driscoll. And so I think Mark Driscoll is an interesting case because a bunch of people wanted me to listen to the Rise and Fall of Marcel podcast. And I was like, I'm not going to listen to a one-sided thing cuz Mark Driscoll was not interviewed for that. So, you're not getting both sides. You're getting one side of the thing. And it was like 12 or 13 episodes long. I was like, no, I'm >> 15 hours is like that's like Lord of the Rings all over again. And so, I was like, I can't do that. But he's one of those interesting cases of I think I'm using his own words and his own categories with him. Accept, reject, redeem. He talks about things in culture. He talks about things that are just acceptable, things that are rejectable, and things that are redeemable. Right? So, like let's look at Jordan Peterson. I think he's in the redeemable category because he's not a Christian by any, you know, any biblical metric. Even though he believes that Jesus is the son of God and he believes that Jesus rose from the grave, he is not personally pusho put his faith in that reality for Jordan Peterson. Right. >> That's when people can have like the the scary verse of like even the demon's belief, >> right? And they shutter. >> Yeah. >> And so that's that's the difference. But with a guy like Mark Driscoll, I've been told any number of things, right? So mark and avoid, uh, false teacher, disqualified, all the different things. And people can make their arguments and I've heard their arguments. And there are some people that I love that are also in the same space I am. And we've come to very different conclusions on Mark Driscoll because whenever I listen to Mark Driscoll and he says, "The Lord told me to tell you guys, maybe he did, right?" But a lot of the things that he tells people, hey, the Lord reminds me in this moment to tell you this, it comports with scripture. And he's he's referring to something that is biblical. And I've heard someone say, I'll leave him nameless, but this is someone who knows Mark Driscoll very well. They're like Mark Driscoll has a reality distortion disorder where when he says and does something he or when he experiences something he thinks that's true but then everybody else in the room experience the same thing and came to a different conclusion about what happened but he's convinced that he's right and everybody else is wrong. >> You know what I'd say from that? Narcissism. >> Well, sure. Yeah. Narcissism. >> And that's where people can get like riled up here and stuff like I >> I don't care for Mark Driscoll. I think he 100% should be marked and avoided. But also at the same time, he's a tough case because he is, you know, again, it's not Mark Driscoll that changed lives. It's Holy Spirit. >> It's God that's changed lives. I have some good buddies that were saved through Trinity. And I I could go, this could be a whole another podcast about this stuff, but I see people and even right now there's you talk about like the rise and fall. There's another major rise of Mark Driscoll right now. And when we talk about special revelation, >> his boy Jimmy Evans said that he got special revelation and basically restored him to ministry. Though you had almost a couple dozen elders at Mars Hill that says he was disqualified. He fled Mars Hill. People like the rise and fall of Mars Hill was done by Mike Cosper and Christianity Today and their liberal leanings are sinful, disgusting. They should not be celebrated or supported. But there's also truth in that and that's what makes it so difficult because I wish they wouldn't have been the ones to do it. It's easily discredited. I totally get that because they're trying to like rail on like aspects of reformed theology that Mark used to, you know, hold by. Now he just tries crapping on it and straw manning it. Like whole another conversation conversation there. And then, you know, it's like, you know, it's just like this, you know, masculinity within the church. It's like, okay, you're coming from some like weak feminized big ea side of the aisle. And it's like, no wonder people don't want to listen to you. But special revelation comes from Jimmy Evans to restore Mark. Mark ends up saying, I got special revelation that a trap was going to be laid by these elders and that they were going to lower some sort of boom or they're the the nuke. I can't remember exactly what wording he was going to use, was they were going to accuse him of adultery. you can't back that up. Like those it seemed like another like Candace Owens type thing here where you're saying like I got this special revelation, but um you can't really necessarily tell me that God didn't tell me this, you know, unless you have, you know, a good amount of people that actually have been scared of Mark and that stuff. Like another thing that's really happened is the manipulation and abuse spiritually that was going on at Mars Hill is also going on at Trinity. There are plenty of people that have shared their stories. There are people that have feared for their lives because they've had uh investigators sent after them by Mark. There's been people that have been kicked out of the church because of Mark's ego and narcissism. And when Mark says that he gets pornographic visions, how are we supposed to think of that as Christians? When he was before he was at Trinity, he said that there was, you know, some woman that he spoke to and he got this special revelation from the Lord that gave pornographic detail to her adultery. H how are we supposed to like God's giving pornographic visions? Like that should make anybody squirm. And also at the same time, you should ask the question, why would God reveal that plus a vision or revelation about some child that was um the Mword I I don't know what I could say on here without molested. Um and >> but with Robert Morris, your boy, >> your boy, like your accountability guy that helped kind of like put you back on the on the map again. months in prison even though he should be hanging from a tree right now. >> Those at very least and this could be just a whole another conversation. Those are things that should get your wheels turning as a Christian. You know, how should I be viewing these things? You know, >> let me actually ask you about that. So, the the so the how we should be viewing things because I've marked and avoided people. I put Andy Stanley in that category. Again, I think Robert Moore should be dead today. I think if we had a a justice system that he would be dead today. >> Completely agree. But then I look at a guy like Robbie Zacharias. Okay. So again, it still hasn't been fully adjudicated like in a court of law, but apparently allegedly he was a sexual deviant while he was alive. >> Mhm. >> And yet as a Christian philosopher and apologist, he was one of and arguably maybe the best one of the 20th into the 21st century in terms of what he taught people, what he taught what he taught me, the things that was in his books. And so when people >> impacted my life so much in college, it was amazing. >> Yeah, me too. And and you we're two of millions that that he had that with. But then after these revelations come out after his death, right, he's not here to defend himself. He's not here to provide counter evidence or any of those types of things. But let's assume all the allegations are true. Well, then that means he was simultaneously perhaps the most effective Christian apologist of his era and a horrible sexual sinner. And so is he mark and avoid or is he accept reject redeem? Is he I will listen to him when he's talking about Christian philosophy but I will ignore any of his messaging on uh sexual chastity or sexual you know health in a in a biblical godly sense. That's where I think there's this tension like can we hold Ravi Zacharias in tension because if I'm going to avoid Ravi Zachcharias I can never look at you know an atheist across the table from me and say hey every worldview has to answer the same four questions origin meaning morality destiny origin why is anything here where did it come from meaning like what's the meaning be behind creation >> morality what's the difference between good and evil and how can we tell destiny where do you go when you die if anywhere right every worldview has to answer those four questions I feel that Christianity as a worldview answers those four questions in the most accurate way. Well, if I do mark and I learned directly from him which he packaged and gave to the world. That's where I feel like with Mark Driscoll because here's the other thing and then I'll let you hop back in here on the Driscoll stuff Ravi Zachariah stuff. A person that I know and love and respect that's in the ministry said to me, they're like, "Kyle, here's the thing about Driscoll." This is another guy that that knows him very well and worked with him and all all the different things and you know knows knows everything about him, knows all the allegations and even knows the stuff that no one knows about, right? >> He said he's a killer Bible teacher. He just is. They're like when he teaches the Bible, we can't find the holes in it. Now, when he starts to editorialize, when he starts to apply the Bible to culture, when he starts to re special revelation things, then there's a lot that we can point at and quibble with and poke holes in. But when he teaches the Bible and teaches biblical doctrine, he's a killer. Like in the best way possible. So that's the tension that I think is hard for a lot of people to come to surmise because it's very easy to mark and avoid and categorically put someone in binary. Yes. No. But when it's like, hey, can we eat the meat and spit out the bones on this person? So what what do you think on that? >> There were plenty of times where we look at Jesus's day and the religious leaders preached truth. But did they do it for their own selfish ambition? >> Right? They taught the Torah accurately. >> Did they do it for um vain conceit, selfish ambition? >> Did they decide to omit some things um at times? Um and that's where I think we kind of got to look at these situations. I will never ever >> ever point someone to Robbie Zacharias's material ever again. I won't do it. >> So he's in mark and avoid category. He's in mark and avoid category because from what I hear, he died in unrepentant sin, egregious, awful sin. He was living a double life. >> He was a whitewashed tomb from what I hear. >> That is awful. How though he preached so much truth, he was just dead bones. And and and that and that's where it's just like on the outside, he's whitewashed. He looks like just an amazing man of God, but he was egregiously sinning. >> Can Can I ask you something on that? Like I I don't want to bust up your your line of thought here, but let's say okay, take random podcaster, you know, John Smith podcaster. You listen to him for the last 5 years and he's a political commentator and let's say he has taught you a lot about political history, American history, you know, conservatism, how to argue your different points and all that. You've learned a ton of things from him that are true. And then he dies and then it's revealed that this man was leading a double life, that he was having an affair. Maybe he had a second family. Let's let's let's make it one of those situations, right? This guy had a child out of wedlock with his mistress. He was paying for that situation to stay quiet. It was the worst kept secret in conservatism. But now that he's dead, all those allegations are brought to light. Can we then just dismiss all the truth that we learned from John Smith because he died in unrepentant sin? because I'm actually I'm actually leaning more towards your argument in in the way that you're elucidating it while at the same time knowing I can't in my brain separate out the things that Ravi Zacharias has taught me directly and indirectly. And the same can be said for a Mark Driscoll or anybody else or or me and you for for instance like if if you and I died in some sort of egregious unspoken secret sin. Could somebody look back and say well yeah John Wright John Rue was wrong about everything. Kyle Thompson was wrong about everything. Is that kind of what you're saying? Like we just can't look at the >> I wouldn't say that they're wrong about everything because I mean even look at somebody like uh Steve Lawson. Steve Lawson incredibly impactful but >> amazing Bible teacher. sexual deviant >> 100%. Where it's like I will not point people um to Steve Lawson stuff. I have not seen true public repentance um from him. I don't know what's going on there. I won't point people at Steve Lawson stuff. Yeah, his apology was pretty pretty weak tea >> and and that's where you know at very least it needs to be at this place where like >> uh Steve Lashen should be marked and avoided and then someone like our leaders held to a different standard biblically or not. >> Yeah. If you if you believe the writer of Hebrews, yeah, they have to give an account for how they shepherded their flock for sure. >> 100%. So when we look at a story like Moses, he has to watch God's chosen people walk into the promised land and he can't enter because he smacked the rock instead of speaking to the rock. That should like really really scare a lot of people that are shepherds right now. If you are a pastor or some sort of ministry leader, apologist, even us at times, we we have to be a good steward of the following that we're provided, the listeners were provided, and we're probably not held on the same platform or standard than than a pastor. Of course not. But still, we have to be a good steward of that. And from like a pastoral standpoint, that's where Robbie Zachcharias was. Like I as of right now I don't think the man is in heaven. I can't say that with 100% certainty because I don't know if there was repentance. But I would hope that if this guy is spending time with cancer on his deathbed that a wrong would be made right. And there there's grace for that even though that he has ravaged people's lives. I like we still have truth from Robbie. But I can't. It almost reminds you of this uh Kyle is um love the sinner or hate the sin. That's one of my least favorite phrases in the entire world because you can't separate the two. The sin doesn't go to hell. >> When you know the RC Yeah. the RC Sproul quote. Yeah. God doesn't send sin to hell. He sends sinners to hell. >> Exactly. That's what people need to remember is it might be a nice little bumper sticker, but Ravi Zachcharias's sin and his egregious secret sin isn't going to hell. If he's unrepentant about that and was unrepentant, he's in hell. And then you look at someone like um I'll wrap it up uh with this. Carl Lent right now is being platformed by people that have big podcasts. their Christian influencers. And I do not understand why. He was asked like uh what his response would be for his like sexual sin and he said he's thankful for it. Like he was talking to I forget the guy like recently. It was like this last week. The guy should not be platformed again. He should go under true biblical eldership. He should not be platformed as another pastor or ministry leader. He needs to truly repent of that sin if he hasn't already. He needs to get the heck off podcast unless he's not trying to elevate himself or his platform. You know, we have to look at somebody like that and there's there's grace to be given, but we have to >> but it doesn't mean you get your job back. >> It does not mean you get your job back. It's just you cannot be restored once you're disqualified like that. There's qualifications for a shepherd and you've thrown that out the window, you know, and at the same time that doesn't mean that like you're ostracized forever. We want you to come back uh in true repentance and be restored to church as a congregant, someone that serves and understands the amazing grace that um is given by God. And that's where I think evangelicalism is got it really out of whack. And there's at times too, even bringing it back to Candace, there should be church discipline. If it was done correctly with what she's doing right now with her platform, if I was saying half or the a quarter of what she was saying right now, I would be getting calls from my pastor and my elders and I would be sitting down with them. It it's >> and it could elevate to church discipline, which is like a foreign concept. Well, let me actually ask you about this because uh we we maybe got 10 or 15 more minutes here. >> Y >> um >> so so locally here I' I've said a lot about uh Craig Rochelle and Life Church cuz they're right here in my backyard. I attended the church for, you know, 11 12 years, which is about, you know, 9 or 10 years too long. Um and and I'm open to the to the thing like, hey, there are different reasons for different churches and different ministries. You know, they're really good at getting people in the door and getting them saved or at least getting them to raise their hand after the TED talk. But then like, you know, there's it's the same thing every two-year cycle. So, you just don't you're not going to be discipled uh in your sanctification process. Is it really gonna move at a place like that? But there's a there's a very very public story. So, I feel okay talking about it. And he's he's a friend of mine, but his name is Chris Beiel. So, he was a pastor under Craig Rochelle in the early years. And this guy was a tremendous sexual deviant, right? So, he had multiple affairs with multiple women going on simultaneously. And he fathered a child out of wedlock with one of his mistresses. >> And he was he was a pastor at like some campus. >> He was a pastor at Life Church like under underneath because I think at the time >> like associate pastor or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. He was like an associate pastor or something like our campus pastor. Okay. >> And so I think at the time when this was all found out I don't even know if Life Church had gone multi-sight yet. If they had it was only maybe two or three sites and now there's like a billion. But he was fired from his job. Uh he ended up working at like Home Depot or Lowe's or something like that. But over a matter of years, my understanding of the story, and I want to say it as accurately as I remember it, is that Craig Rochelle never, you know, told him to get out of the flock. He's like, "No, you stay in this flock. You just can't have this job." Right? You you like, "But you're a member of this church, and we're going to walk beside you and your wife, and we are going to walk beside her, whatever she decides to do. We are going to advocate for y'all saving your marriage and for her staying in it. But if she chooses to leave because you broke the covenant, we will stand by her." >> Yeah. And then that would be actual grounds for divorce. Like obviously that gre that that grieves the Lord but like there there is stipulations for that. >> There's biblical grounds for it. And so during this process uh his wife Cindy decides to forgive him. They work towards reconciliation, rebuilding their marriage. She embraced his son that he had outside of the marriage. Wow. >> As as almost like a stepson. Powerful story. Like it's it's hard to even describe Cindy Beal without getting upset because of how much of a gangster that woman is. She is a killer, man. Like the grace that she understands and her level of understanding the gospel and to extend forgiveness and grace to Chris after what he did. Shocking. What what what an amazing woman that is. >> But then somewhere along the line, Craig brought Craig or Craig brought Chris back into the fold at Life Church as a pastor. >> Now, now as we sit here in 2025, I don't know if Chris Beiel is still affiliated with the church. He and I have not spoken in a in a considerable amount of time. I have no idea where he is in the org chart. All I know is when I was still attending that church 8-ish years ago or so, Chris Beiel was on staff is like basically the number two under Craig. So my understanding is like if if Craig, you know, slipped and fell and, you know, busted his head and, you know, that's curtains for Craig, the person that would be preaching that Sunday would have been Chris Beal, right? And then they would figure out what they were going to do with all the campuses and, you know, all the things, right? But he was the guy. And so are so so you're saying that once somebody because again I I tend to agree with you but I want you to elucidate your point fully that once you are disqualified you are not redeemable to the office of pastor but you continue to be a part of the flock and you can continue your sanctification and disciplehip disciplehip journey therein >> 100%. You you do not have any authority within the church anymore. Uh you are supposed to be under elders. You're supposed to be under authority. You don't get authority back yourselves. that's gone. And then that's actually what honors God is finding reconciliation, but at the same time, it's, you know, it would grieve the Lord if she ended up leaving him, but there actually would be grounds for that. Um, and then that's an amazing story. And then you get to the point where it's like, >> all right, let's ruffle some more feathers. This is the problem with non-denominationalism and Pentecostal and charismatics. constantly there's restoration because of this unbelievable amount of free grace they provide. It's almost like their own form of tradition trumps the Bible. This person's been disqualified. Doesn't mean that you have to toss them out to the wolves and then never speak to them again and just hope they, you know, figure out their life. There's active reconciliation you're fighting for. You're fighting for their marriage to get back. You're fighting for their kids. you're fighting for this kid that was uh made out of woodlock. I mean, that's a beautiful thing. But people just have to realize the Bible is our standard. And when doctrine is just thrown out the window, like a place like Life Church, like the at the movie series and like all this seeker sensitivity, it's about feelings. It's about emotion. And that's why these churches will go up there and they'll do this like Super Bowl themed sermon and then someone will kick the Bible. >> I mean, that's the best illustration of what these churches do. Can people be saved by grace through these churches and under the leadership of Craig and stuff? Like yes, you know, God can save anyone for any reason for his glory, but that does not mean that that pastor or that church is actually doing church the way it should be done. And it just grieves me when we dis uh we just devalue sin and discredit it and believe that you know we have such a post-modern beautiful idea of reconciliation and grace that we can restore these people and wow if something happens to Craig could you imagine the number two what's his name again >> Chris Beal it was at the time >> Chris and like you imagine him, you know, going up on stage behind the pulpit sharing his story of how God's grace has restored him. There would be thousands of people applauding that and I think it's awful. I love seeing that restoration has happened within his family with his marriage. You can't get that office of shepherd back. That's not how it works biblically. And I just hope that people can start to understand that doctrine is not a bad word. We need to hold to it. >> Doctrine are or think that helps you think rightly about God. Like that's what doctrine's purpose is. >> Exactly. And it just needs to come down to the Bible is our standard. You can't have Life Church decide what's best when it comes to restoration. And you can't have Hill Song decide what's best or Joe Schmo's Baptist Church down the road decide what's best. The Bible is the standard. And if you're going against what God's word says, people should be questioning it. And but that's the problem too we go back to is the biggest epidemic in our country, I think, right now is multiple things, but one of them is biblical illiteracy. People don't know why abortion is wrong because they don't know what God's word says about it. >> And even people that say they're pro-life fall to pieces with the simplest objection, right? And then they have no way to answer it back. They don't have philosophical ways to answer it back, but they can't even answer it back with basic scripture either. >> They can't tell you why someone pushing back against them putting pronouns in their LinkedIn bio as a Christian is wrong because they don't know what the Bible says. Like there's so many issues in our country right now and in the world that can easily be refuted, debunked, whatever word you want to use by understanding what the Bible says. And there's so many of these places like people love Craig Rochelle, but like did he have anything to say about abortion after Roie Wade was overturned? you know, like and he had but he did have time to post the black square after George Floyd overdose and police custody. >> And and that's what people really need to realize is a strong church is not a church that just brings up a bunch of culture war stuff. So, hear me out here because I know there's a lot of people that brought up like if your church doesn't say something about Charlie Kirk, you need to leave that church. A strong church is not a church that brings up the assassination of Charlie Kirk. It's something that we could say, "Yeah, I think churches should bring it up." Um, but if that's coming from someone that calls themselves a modern- day apostle, a female that calls herself a pastor, if someone that preaches prosperity gospel is bringing up Charlie, you have foundational issues and it's not culture war discussions. And that's not saying that Charlie's assassination was a culture war thing. Obviously, it's something it's a martyr for the faith. I think there was a good tie in there, but people need to know the word of God. And if you keep getting these topical sermons and people are restored to eldership and uh the office of shepherd and even though egregious sins and um it's being justified, the partnerships with false teachers on these Wednesday nights that you have, it's like people just don't know. And I think that's the biggest issue is um you go to any church and you could probably ask them about, you know, maybe 12 questions about the foundation of the Christian faith and they'd probably fail that. Um maybe you talk to just an average congregant, I'd imagine at least eight out of 10 people would fail that. They wouldn't be able to explain what the gospel is. They could tell you like maybe the Trinity isn't like that foundational to the faith. Oh, Bara, any research thing that comes out, research of evangelicals. And then, you know, a plurality of evangelicals will believe that there are multiple ways to God, not just, you know, not just Jesus, there are other ways to get to him. A plurality of Christians will will say that the the Bible is not an essential part of reading, that there are other things that inform the Bible. The Bible is not authoritative, right? not just in their life anecdotally, but they don't believe everything in it is true, which essentially means they don't believe that it's actually the word of God. But I think that actually gets back as as we wind to a close, I think that gets back to the biblical illiteracy problem. >> Yeah. >> Is if we believe that it was the word of God, we would read it, right? Because it's not it's not a road map. I've heard the Bible is a road map for a good life. No, you can use it to have a better life, >> but it's what it's where the most fundamental truths are. It's not every truth claim. I can't go there and see who won the 1968 World Series and I can't open it up and see who the 17th president of the United States was. But the most fundamental foundational truths of what it means to be a human in humanity as a created being is found there. Not in the Book of Mormon, not in some the Bavad Gita or or the or the Quran or anything like that. It's in the Holy Bible. But we just don't believe it. And so, but let's say we did and let's say we read it because every societal ill can basically be reduced down to a man not doing what a man is supposed to do. That's what leads to fatherlessness. That's what leads to gang culture. That's what leads to, you know, high crime rates. That's what leads to single motherhood. That's what leads to everything. >> But if guys were tethering themselves to the word of God and reading it as if it were true and then applying the truths that they're learning to their lives and to their communities, that that's that's Eden. like we're we're we're we're still under sin. We're still in a post Genesis 3 world, but we're at a position where we are doing things in right ordering with how God built them from the beginning. But we can't do that if we don't know the word, right? We can't do what Jesus did in the desert when the devil is quoting scripture back to him incorrectly and leaving some very important pieces of it out. No >> because we don't know the scripture well enough to be able to push back. So when we hear someone tickling our ears or sprinkling things that sound like Christianes, maybe it's new thought or new age or something like that, we have no means by which to fight back. And it's a terrible state for what most people would consider to be Christianom today. >> And then that goes back to exactly what you're saying is it's weak leadership from men. >> It goes it literally goes back to the first chapters of the Bible. >> Y >> what was the problem? Adam was just standing there >> and so >> a snake was trying to take out his wife and he's just like no I don't know what's going on just joined in. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Stay stayed silent. And then even when uh God comes walking through the garden they're hiding thinking that the all powerful God won't know right where they are. I that is one of the coolest stories to me and obviously it's ob obviously one of the most depressing is he said God says where are you? And that's exactly what God does in our sin. Like you need to come out and admit this. It's just like, "Oh, we were afraid um because we were naked." Like sin should make you feel rotten cuz we all are. Like we're not we're not worthy of salvation. We're not uh worthy of eternal life. Only by the grace of God. And we need to realize that it needs to be strong men that do these things. Not as or authoritarians putting women under our thumb, but you know, why is the church not thriving and holding to sound doctrine and elevating the wrong people and partnering with false teachers and deciding that um you know the clothes that they wear and the connections they have are more important than preaching sound doctrine. It's because of weak leadership from men and you know it's constantly like well you know is you know having a female pastor like not that big of a deal or you know all the ills of our society. There's so many men that were told that abortion is a women's issue. >> Yep. >> There's there's men that really believe that they and it's again like we need to step up as men. That doesn't mean that like we're all just jacked and, you know, modern-day crusaders, but we should be able to provide, protect, um, and lead spiritually, mentally, physically, and a ton of us have played sports. And if you're going into life, um, the way that you might have gone into sports at times unprepared, you didn't work that hard in practice. You were just, >> you're going to get smoked. You're going to get exposed. >> Yeah. You were weak in uh, cardio. the wait room. The worst feeling you can have is a nervousness based off unpreparedness. Yep. And so many people go into a battlefield day after day after day and they don't have the full armor of God on. They are wildly unprepared to defend their faith. And that has got to be one of the most rotten feelings you have is you're on the you're at the dinner table. We got Thanksgiving coming up. We got Christmas coming up. We have a crazy time where Charlie Kirk just got assassinated and you don't even know how to defend your faith at the dinner table. Not like it needs to be a conflict all the time, right? But you don't even know how to present the gospel or what or or what you believe to your coworker. And that actually should be a feeling where you feel rotten. That's the Holy Spirit. Hopefully, like you've been saved, the Holy Spirit is just like you're not living up to what you should be living up to. >> You know, you are uh the parable of the talents. You have buried that talent in the sand. You have not gone out and made disciples. You're just hoping that you'd be able to get by. You know, God saved me, so I'm just going to sit back, twiddle my thumbs. Hopefully, people don't ask me hard questions. I'm not in conflict. As men, we need to be the best leaders when it comes to making disciples. Uh we need to do it humbly. Uh we need to do it graciously. And I hope during a time like this that we still use discernment. Um, and also find ways to just have I know you brought up like iron sharpening iron. I know you had a like a you had a really good post about if if people haven't seen that. It's hilarious. Um, but there but there is like the truth that that aspect of like there are so many amazing strong men and we need mentors. We need people that are going to push us. Um, and we need to continue to hear that calling each and every single day to dive headon into his word. If you're spending more time being an apologist for Candace Owens, if you're being uh more of an apologist for your favorite pastor, your favorite podcaster, than you are getting into the word, being an apologist for Jesus Christ, there's a problem there. Priorities are out of whack. There's no there's no problem with like spending good time in the gym and connecting with the right people and working hard at your job. But if you don't have a good defense for the faith, if you're not spending time in God's word, you're not being molded by the spirit uh through that revelation of God's word, there's problems. And we need to continue to push each other because we all fail at that. There's times we're good at it, times we're bad at it. And we need people to tell us other men that are like, "You getting the word this week? You getting the word today?" Yeah. Yeah, you've been praying. You've been giving this to God. You've been honoring God. You've been thinking about how you need to be driving, working, um, loving your wife, loving your kids for the glory of God. We need that reminder constantly. >> Amen. That's good stuff. Well, uh, where can people find you? Where can people go to support your work? >> Um, always causing a ruckus on X. It's johnnyroot_. Um, I'll cause a ruckus since you're not on there. >> That's right. >> And then, uh, I'm on >> I'm just an observer of all the nonsense on there. I'll let you take care of all the idiots. Life is probably better not be on X, but if you're on X, you can follow me there. I'm on Instagram, JohnnyRoot_. So, it's J O N Y R O Tore. I'm on Tik Tok as well. There's a lot of sports related content that I cover there, like non-woke conservative side of sports with a, you know, biblical foundation to it. And then I've been trying to grow the YouTube a little bit. Been uh been dabbling in that. And just just no matter what, it's so crazy to see uh where God's taken me in my journey as an independent content creator. It's fun connecting with you, even if we're just trying to work for some scam network, you know, like >> never again. I mean, maybe it might happen, but you know, but no, I'm just I'm thankful for you and the work that you do. And uh just thanks for coming out to Oklahoma. >> Yeah, man. All right, brother. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undantton.life. That's info@undanton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook. and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undauntton.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetual, which is off their self-titled debut album on Faceown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness. Keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the Lion of Judah.