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1:17
This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast.
1:19
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
1:21
Let's get into it.
1:22
The guys today, I've got another return appearance by the one, the only John Eldridge.
1:27
So if you do not know who that is, he is a Christian author, counselor and lecturer.
1:30
He's also the New York Times best-selling author of a large number of books, workbooks
1:34
and group studies and all kinds of different things.
1:36
And guys, he has written these seminal men's ministry book.
1:39
It is on our 100 books, Every Modern Christian Man Should Read List.
1:42
And that is the book Wild at Heart.
1:43
He's also written books like Beautiful Outlaw, Waking the Dead, Father by God, Get Your Life
1:47
Back and Others.
1:48
Also, he's been on this podcast several times, episode 141 and 193, if you want to check
1:53
those out.
1:54
But guys on this podcast, we're going to be talking about his new book that he brought
1:57
or that he's brought to the world here and it's called A Year with Men, a 12-month plan
2:01
for your guys group.
2:02
And so it's not as much of a book as it is a reference guide, but we get into a lot
2:06
of detail about, okay, so you've already got a men's group.
2:10
Well now what do we do?
2:12
That's a question that I get often, which is like, "Hey Kyle, I've got a group of men
2:15
together.
2:16
We're starting our foxhole.
2:17
Going through some of your devotionals."
2:18
Well now what?
2:19
Well we have a guide from the guy, from John Eldridge, from his organization that's going
2:24
to help you get through a year, I say get through, it's a positive thing.
2:27
Go through a year with your men.
2:29
Go through a year with the people that are already a part of your life.
2:32
This isn't another thing, trying to convince you to get a men's group.
2:35
This is, you've already got it.
2:36
You've already started to try and figure it out, but here's a guide to kind of work
2:39
through it.
2:40
There's a bunch of different modules.
2:41
We go into a lot of the questions there.
2:42
But then at the end of the podcast interview, I want to make sure you stick around for that.
2:45
We talk about what 2021 was like, because here we are in January of 2022, everyone's
2:50
kind of reflective and looking back on last year.
2:52
How can they improve this year?
2:53
What's the world going to look like?
2:54
We spent quite a bit of time talking about what was coming from 2021, the tidal wave
2:59
that that's kind of creating for 2022, things that he's worried about for this year, things
3:03
he's excited about.
3:04
Again, guys, every time he comes on here is a great conversation.
3:07
This one is no different.
3:08
So without further ado, let's get into it.
3:11
John Eldridge, welcome back to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
3:14
Yeah, Kyle, good to see you again, pal.
3:17
I mean, I'm just going to say at this point, this is like number three or four.
3:20
You've been on this podcast a lot.
3:21
So here's a deal.
3:23
Just throwing it out there.
3:24
I think JE and KT, I think this could be a thing.
3:26
Like I think we might have our own show brewing here at some point.
3:29
It's got some potential, doesn't it?
3:31
Okay, I'll have my people reach out to your people and we'll get on to it.
3:34
But I will just say, since the last time we spoke, the world is still as dumb as it was
3:38
then, right?
3:39
I seemingly every time I open up my phone or open up to the news or something like that,
3:43
I just can't even fathom what's going on.
3:45
I know you got some, some things coming up later on this year that will help some men
3:48
with that.
3:49
But one of the things about it is a new book and that's one of the main reasons why you're
3:52
on here today.
3:53
And it's this book here, a year with men, a 12 month plan for your guys group.
3:57
So I want to kind of get into this book and we're going to spend most of our time in this
4:00
book today, but I want to read the first words of the book because they're, you know, it
4:04
sets a very impactful tone for what you're going to get from the rest of the book.
4:08
So here it is.
4:09
As men were meant to live in community, few of us ever do.
4:12
It's not that we don't want to, it's just unclear how to go about it, that we've not
4:17
seen many examples of men doing it well.
4:20
That's why we've created this guide a year with men provides a roadmap for focus time
4:24
with a group of men over the course of a year.
4:26
While there's flexibility, there's also a plan that lays out what to do, how to do it,
4:31
when to schedule it and why it matters.
4:33
So let's just break that down just a little bit here, John.
4:35
You say that we're supposed to live in community, but we don't.
4:39
Why not?
4:40
Because it's classic, right, the friendless American male was the classic book that came
4:44
out on this that, oh man, we go back into history, industrial revolution, the whole way we work
4:51
these days, cubicles, separation, and then COVID it, right, and dudes are trying to get
4:57
their job done at home.
4:59
Now a lot of guys are back or in some kind of mixed thing, but a lot of guys have chosen
5:04
not to go back and they're just, they're calling in and it works because it gives family flexibility
5:10
but the point is, he is alone and alone is a very dangerous place to live.
5:17
And you and I, it's ironic that the two of us are having this conversation because we
5:23
are loners by nature, right?
5:27
Yeah, I'm happy alone, I can get my life done, you know, but many years ago, through actually
5:36
a very tragic accident, when I lost my best friend in a climbing accident, God said to
5:41
me very clearly, I will not let you walk alone.
5:48
And he knew, he knew that I get taken out.
5:51
I think the thing that's very important for a lot of guys to mention, that's why you harp
5:54
on it so much.
5:55
That's why I harp on it so much is most of the guys end up somewhere and they don't understand
6:00
where they've ended up somewhere that they don't like how they got to that place.
6:03
And a lot of times it's because they self actualize, they made their own path, they went their
6:07
own way.
6:08
And I guess this way, this kind of leads to the next question.
6:10
If you believe in the caricatures of masculinity, right?
6:14
Men don't like roadmaps, they don't like plans, they don't like directions, right?
6:18
So in a lot of ways, they will react, you know, actively reject those things.
6:23
That's what a lot of men will do and they think they're supposed to do that.
6:26
So why provide this?
6:28
Like why provide an actual roadmap when most guys are like, ah, I don't need that.
6:32
Well, this is funny, I thought very few guys would be interested in it.
6:37
But I wrote it for the guys who are because there's a revolution going on.
6:41
You're part of it, I'm part of it.
6:43
And there's a group of guys out there that are, there is a grassroots movement of men
6:51
getting together.
6:52
And before your podcast ever started, it was you and your guys, right?
6:56
Right.
6:57
And doing book groups together, so what's really cool, Kyle, like the good news, this
7:03
is the untold story.
7:04
So, you know, CNN will never cover this.
7:07
But there are men getting together all over the place.
7:14
And it's grassroots.
7:15
It needs to be.
7:16
It's underground.
7:17
It needs to be.
7:18
But those guys want some direction.
7:20
Okay.
7:21
Now we're together.
7:22
We get the idea.
7:23
I want to travel with some guys for a while.
7:25
What do we do?
7:26
Give me, give me some guidance on that.
7:28
And it was for those guys that we wrote the book, actually that we wrote the roadmap,
7:34
right?
7:35
It's not like you're going to read a book.
7:37
It's a plan.
7:38
It's a 12 month plan to walk with a small group of guys.
7:42
I'm not trying to persuade guys to get in a group to get some mates and hang out.
7:48
I'm not.
7:49
That's not my mission in this project.
7:51
This project is for guys who already get it and they want it and like, okay, if I were
7:57
to invite three other guys into my garage, you know, once a week, what would we do?
8:04
How does it not get weird?
8:05
When do you take breaks?
8:07
You know, what's a good pace to all of that?
8:12
That's why we wrote this.
8:13
When I think that's an important distinction that this isn't just another men's book, right?
8:18
This isn't just another book targeted at men, tell them, hey, in a not so subtle way, you
8:22
need to not suck so much.
8:24
It really is a roadmap.
8:25
Like I read through it like a book just to prepare for this.
8:27
But if you're using it as you propose using it, which we'll get into more here in just
8:31
a second, it's not a book as much as it's a reference guide for where you're going.
8:35
And if anything else, it's just keeping you on the path.
8:38
So when you set your heading, it's kind of keeping you on that heading as a group.
8:41
And you're very open about the fact that this can be fairly flexible, but I'm getting
8:45
ahead of myself here because there is a great quote from the beginning of the book, which
8:48
was also written by a member of your team, Morgan Snyder, in the book, Becoming a King.
8:53
And this was in a year with men as well, but this was the quote, GK Chesterton suggested
8:57
that every generation loses the gospel and every generation is charged with its recovery.
9:02
The ancient past are lost to each generation of men.
9:05
And it's up to the to each new generation to rediscover these ancient past.
9:10
I thought that that was a great thing for you to say early on in the book, you know, pulling
9:14
from Morgan there, because you're you've said this a bunch.
9:17
I've said this a bunch.
9:19
We're not coming up with anything new.
9:21
We're just packaging it in a way that's making it more digestible for you in your 2022 brain.
9:26
So so why do you think most men kind of struggle with, Oh, you know, this is kind of old hat.
9:30
I already get it.
9:31
You know, what is it about it that makes it unique enough for a man to kind of dive into
9:35
this type of content?
9:37
I think the men who want it have tried what the world has to offer and it doesn't work.
9:48
When you're just sick of what the world has to offer, it doesn't bring joy, it doesn't
9:52
bring strength, it sure doesn't bring resilience.
9:56
I think when you realize, okay, I can't figure everything out on my own.
10:04
Or there is wisdom.
10:07
You take any of your movies that you love, guys, I mean, come on, gladiator 300 on and
10:13
on.
10:14
It goes.
10:15
It's always a, it's always a fellowship of men, right?
10:19
Saving private Ryan brave heart.
10:21
We could just start going through it, right?
10:22
That it is always, I love them.
10:25
The movie Fury, those guys in the tank, right?
10:29
Yeah.
10:30
So how do you get that?
10:32
How do you form it and how do you keep it going?
10:35
Most guys were never taught that.
10:37
They didn't see their dad do it.
10:40
No.
10:41
It wasn't model.
10:42
And the whole thing is, oh, gazoo, it's like what has been modeled for them if they're
10:47
in the church world is something that doesn't look appealing at all.
10:53
It's the once a month pancake breakfast or it's the forced accountability groups.
10:59
So they look at that and they go, I don't want that.
11:02
What if you could get together with a group of guys and say, look, let's, let's covenant
11:07
together.
11:08
Let's, let's stack hands for a year, you know, recognizing there's going to be some ins and
11:14
outs and you're going to have an flow of kind of thing, but let's commit to a year and
11:17
let's journey together through this plan and show them the plans.
11:21
Say, look, we're going to go through wild at harp and you go through becoming a king.
11:24
You know, we'll get into this in a minute.
11:26
Like, here's the cool part of this story.
11:28
So this book didn't start at this map, this book didn't start as a plan.
11:32
It actually started as a study guide for the HBO series band of brothers.
11:39
So I love that story.
11:41
I love, you know, Ambrose wrote the book.
11:43
I devoured it first and then HBO Tom Hanks made the series about easy company and the
11:50
hundred and first airborne from Normandy to the end of the war.
11:55
That is a compelling series.
11:59
And my son and I were sitting around one day and he said, wouldn't it be cool if we could
12:02
create a study guide for a group of guys to go through that?
12:07
So we did watch an episode, reflect on it, courage, bravery, guys who are such idiots,
12:15
that guy's a poser.
12:16
Why do you hate Sobel so much, you know, like, okay, so we built that and then we looked
12:23
at that and said, wait a second, what if we did this over a whole year?
12:28
Like what if we had modules like that that guys could go through over the course of year?
12:34
So let me give an overview if I could, absolutely, because the holding is, you know, the thing
12:39
about the church model, get guys in a circle and in a base church basement once a week.
12:49
It's just so unappealing.
12:51
So one of the things we built into, you know, there's media, there's videos, there's film,
12:55
but there's also adventure and we recommend a healthy rhythm.
12:59
We're like, hey, when you finish the first module, take a break, man.
13:03
Give your guys a couple of weeks off.
13:05
Like you don't have to sit there staring at each other's face the entire year.
13:09
And then there's recommended adventure in it.
13:13
Like go axe throwing and most communities have pretty cool options now of stuff dudes
13:22
can do together to just go out and have fun, blow stuff up, get some motorbikes, right?
13:28
We even recommend, you know, we outline a couple of adventure trips in there.
13:33
So that through the course of your year, you're going through some of the core material of
13:37
the Wild at Heart as a ministry and you're using film and movie and you're having fun
13:47
and you're doing adventure and one of the key components anyway, so that's a big picture
13:52
and I know you want to unpack that.
13:54
So we'll go module to module.
13:55
Well, the thing that's great about that is there are five modules in there.
13:58
So for the type a person like me that's like, hey, we can't just like free flow through this
14:03
thing.
14:04
We got to like build one thing into the next and the next.
14:05
You do start with Wild at Heart as a first module and then you get into, we all have
14:09
a story where guys kind of get to reveal a little bit of themselves.
14:12
And some people might think, well, why isn't that first?
14:15
But if you think about it for two more seconds, you understand why that can't be first because
14:18
most men are not going to be comfortable with sharing the stories that early on.
14:22
But then from we all have a story, you go to becoming a king and then you get into band
14:25
of brothers, which you just discussed and then you get into father by God.
14:28
So this is all content that's kind of come from, from your organization, from the things
14:31
that you've done and then you basically undergirded the stuff with band of brothers.
14:35
So and guys, just, just, you're going to have to go buy this to get into all the different
14:38
details.
14:39
We're not going to go line by line here so that you can actually go get it will be in
14:42
the show notes.
14:43
So make sure that you check that out.
14:44
But kind of give us an idea as to why you put them in the order you did because it makes
14:48
sense to do Wild at Heart first.
14:50
It's the seminal men's ministry book.
14:51
You've heard me tell you that to your face, but why go from Wild at Heart to telling the
14:55
story of each man to becoming a king, band of brothers, father by God.
14:59
Yeah, yeah.
15:00
Yeah.
15:01
And first off, we're not expecting guys in the group to read a bunch of books through
15:04
the year because that's the other thing that kills some guys like to read.
15:08
Most guys don't.
15:09
Right.
15:10
So it's all film.
15:11
It's all videos.
15:12
So we built a brand new Wild at Heart experience, six part video series, really beautiful.
15:17
You and I talked about it last year on the show.
15:22
And so if you start with that, one thing guys need is they need permission that this isn't
15:29
religious, this isn't like uptight.
15:34
You don't have to unzip if you don't want to, you get guys watching something together.
15:41
So the focus is up on the screen for 20 minutes and you put some good material out there and
15:47
then you talk about it.
15:49
That's where it starts.
15:51
And it starts with a common language.
15:54
What do we mean by heart?
15:55
What do we mean by adventure?
15:57
What do we mean by battle, Ironman, Wired is the warrior.
16:00
You have to have some common verbiage and language and it's kind of a common way of
16:07
looking at things.
16:08
So later in the year when the guy says, "Hey, I am totally getting taken out by my battle
16:14
or I do not know how to fight for my beauty," the whole group goes, "Oh, we know exactly
16:18
what you're talking about."
16:19
We're on the same page.
16:20
So we start out, let's get on the same page, let's get a vision for this, six weeks through
16:25
the film series of Wild at Heart.
16:28
And then we do transition to telling your story because this is where the gold is in
16:35
every good friendship.
16:37
You know, you get together with your pals, whether it's over a pint or you're shooting
16:42
some hoops, you ask them, "Hey man, what's going on?
16:46
Right?
16:47
How you been?
16:48
What's happening?
16:49
Tell me the story."
16:50
And you start telling each other stories, "You will not believe what happened to work
16:55
this week.
16:56
I am so fried."
16:58
Okay, there it is.
16:59
The gold is in the stories.
17:01
It really is.
17:03
And if you want to know and understand a man, you want to know and understand yourself.
17:09
You have to know his story, right?
17:12
Tell your story.
17:13
And you don't have to get into stuff you don't want to get into.
17:16
But you know, guys, and again, we give direction for it, we help you prepare to do that.
17:22
What do you share?
17:23
What don't you share?
17:24
What's appropriate for a group?
17:25
That kind of thing.
17:26
This has been by far the coolest thing we have ever done in any of our groups.
17:32
And I've done a jillion of these groups is to hear one another story.
17:37
I think the important thing about what we just went through as well is that's the second
17:41
part of the five modules, right?
17:42
So again, being the type A person that I am, you're not waiting till the end to get the
17:46
stories out there because you're give in that case, you're going to give the guys a lot
17:49
of chances to go hide somewhere because right off of the back of the content from the Wild
17:54
at Heart video series, which is absolutely gorgeous and amazing, you're getting right
17:58
into the story part.
17:59
So it's not like you're not, you know, holding them over over the fire, but you're bringing
18:02
their feet a little bit closer to it to where it's like, Hey, you're in this baby.
18:06
Like we're a couple of months into this now we've got several more months and modules
18:09
after this.
18:10
So this is a good time to kind of get into what we're doing, but the talking is not the
18:14
point.
18:15
Hey, I love, I love this quote from beginnings and I'm sure you know exactly where I'm going
18:19
with this.
18:20
But this is from the very beginning part of the book.
18:21
It's in one of the earlier sections.
18:23
Here's the quote.
18:24
Male relationships do not work if the only shared mission is the relationship.
18:29
Part of the Amago day men uniquely carry is God's intervention men are made to act.
18:34
If all you do is all you ever do is sit in a circle and talk about your relationship,
18:39
that fellowship will be disintegrated by the slightest adversity.
18:43
I say this all the time in general broad strokes, men connect shoulder to shoulder, women connect
18:47
the eyeball to eyeball men have to do the shoulder to shoulder to step before eyeball
18:51
to eyeball even makes sense in our monkey brains.
18:53
But that is so important, John, that you're making them share their stories.
18:58
But after they've accomplished something together, it was that kind of the idea going forward
19:02
with what you wanted to do with this.
19:03
Yeah, exactly.
19:04
And again, let's, let's, let's why are we doing this group?
19:07
Let's back out to 30,000 feet.
19:10
It's not to take in a bunch of content.
19:13
It's to have real brothers in your life.
19:16
And that means you're in each other's box hole so that when the crap hits the fan as
19:22
it does through any, any year, right, you got each other's backs.
19:27
I mean, wouldn't it be amazing to know that a couple guys have your back?
19:33
That's what we're after.
19:34
So this isn't just, Hey, here's a great content or here's a cool HBO series.
19:38
It is great content and it is very cool, but this is about we got your back.
19:44
We are in this fox hole together.
19:46
How's work?
19:47
How's your family?
19:48
How can we fight for you?
19:51
Well, you can't do that till you tell each other your story.
19:54
Guys got to have some sense who you are, where you came from, what your dreams are.
20:01
And then you go, Oh, now I know why how is always so angry.
20:05
And how I know like David's always just cracking everybody up.
20:09
That makes sense to me now, because I've heard his story.
20:13
And the thing about story is you're giving yourself the opportunity to speak into an
20:16
area that you understand, an area that you have some, some experience in, whether that's
20:21
hurt or even positive because there was something by the father by God unit that it may have
20:26
been, I'm sure it wasn't just a throwaway line, but I was like, Oh my gosh, that makes
20:29
so much sense.
20:30
I just released an episode called how to avoid being a crappy man in 2022.
20:33
It's kind of a series I do at the beginning of every year.
20:35
It's stuff like, you know, don't be late, don't let sports ruin your night.
20:39
But one of the things it said, you know, uh, it was basically revel in the opportunity
20:43
to look like an idiot, right?
20:45
Like, you know, really take that opportunity in.
20:47
And a quote from that section was my friend had noticed my burnout headlight and it offered
20:51
to help me replace it.
20:52
I had declined.
20:53
I dreaded the feeling of looking like an idiot in front of another man.
20:56
I preferred looking like an idiot in private.
20:59
And so you kind of threw yourself before the mercy of the court, you know, the court being
21:02
the reader being like, Hey, I do these stupid man things as well.
21:06
And so it could be a macro deal, but it's also these smaller things.
21:08
But John, I guess why do we do that?
21:11
Like why do we avoid the opportunity to give a man to let him loan his expertise to us to
21:16
teach us something on whether it's a light bulb or something like how to father your
21:20
child.
21:21
Okay.
21:22
So the key masculine fear is I suck.
21:28
That's the key masculine can confirm.
21:30
You can put that in a lot of different language and weak.
21:33
I'm stupid.
21:34
I got nothing to offer.
21:36
I can't come through.
21:39
But basically it's I don't have what it takes.
21:41
I suck at life or I suck at work or I suck at marriage or I suck as a dad.
21:46
That's the core fear.
21:48
That's the core fear.
21:49
And again, like I love little boys.
21:53
I love little boys.
21:54
I love hanging out with them.
21:56
I love playing with them because they're the pure thing right there.
22:00
But I've got a little grandson, he's a year and a half and we have this little plastic
22:05
slide that he gets to get on.
22:07
When he gets to the top of the slide, he just jumps on.
22:12
The little guy, the soul of the man is I need to know that I'm powerful.
22:17
Okay.
22:18
That's really, really critical.
22:21
No man likes feeling weak and thus Viagra and all that stuff.
22:27
So therefore the deepest fear of a man is failure, exposure and failure that you are
22:36
the idiot, you are the weak link in the chain, you're the guy in the group that has terrible
22:41
marriage or isn't a good dad or can't even keep a job and it's that fear.
22:46
So because of that fear, we hide, right?
22:51
We fake it.
22:52
We don't open up.
22:54
We don't want to talk about our need.
22:55
We don't ask for help, right?
22:58
Like that was a huge thing for me.
23:01
I was the guy that would never ask directions.
23:04
I was the guy that would never ask for help.
23:07
I would take my lawn mower apart just thinking I could fix it myself.
23:11
I didn't want to ask my neighbor for help, right?
23:15
And it's that core fear, but man, I'll tell you what, here's the positive side of this.
23:20
You get a little bit of taste to the other side of that.
23:24
One guy comes along and says, oh, it's a carburetor, man.
23:27
I rebuilt mine last year and let me help you with that.
23:30
It is so good.
23:33
Like your soul actually drinks it in.
23:36
You get a little bit of that going in the group.
23:40
You guys are off to the races.
23:42
Well, one of the best things that I've done in my life is allowed for that vulnerability
23:45
because I'm not a very handy guide and grow up fixing a lot of things.
23:48
I grew up playing a lot of sports, right?
23:50
So you have a sports related question or a fitness related question.
23:52
I can help.
23:53
I'm so like fixing this or adjusting that I'm somewhat useless.
23:57
Like I want to be the dumb guy that carries the heavy thing, right?
23:59
I don't want to be the guy that can actually engineer it to make sure that it works.
24:02
But the amount of pleasure I've gotten from allowing other men to show me how good they
24:08
are at what they do.
24:10
And that's now a skill that I have to a certain degree that I can pass on to my year and a
24:14
half year old son, to my second son that we know we hope to be welcoming here in the
24:17
next couple of months, right?
24:19
And so I think that's a very important thing for a lot of guys to consider is just go ahead
24:22
and act like an idiot self-deprecate, make fun of yourself, but just move on because
24:26
it's going to be good for you and it's going to be good for them.
24:28
But one thing that you did throughout the book, John, that obviously you would expect
24:31
with something like this.
24:32
That's kind of this a workbook type thing is you provide questions that go along with
24:36
each session.
24:37
So these questions, I'm sure, are meant to dig deeper into the content for that week
24:41
and to, you know, elicit responses from men that require some consultation of their inner
24:45
dialogue, if you will, or something like that.
24:47
But here's the deal.
24:48
You and I aren't in a men's group together, but I want to know your answers to some of
24:52
these questions.
24:53
Because as I'm reading through, I'm like, that got it.
24:55
I want to know what John Eldridge has to say.
24:56
So from unit one, I'm just going to throw a few at you.
24:59
So from unit one, that's the wild, a heart unit, session one question forwards this.
25:03
Who is the man you feel you ought to be when you think of a good man or a Christian man?
25:08
What is he like?
25:09
And do you want to be like this person?
25:11
Why or why not?
25:14
It's so funny, I'm part of my language, but the thing that actually just pops out of
25:19
my soul is don't be a dick.
25:21
I don't want to be that guy.
25:25
There's just so many Christian men that they lead with their theology, they lead with their
25:29
morality, they, you know, they've got the good talk.
25:34
I don't want to be that guy.
25:36
I want to be the real deal.
25:38
And so for me, what does that look like?
25:47
It looks like being true, not faking it.
25:47
And it looks like being faithful, like faithful in friendship, faithful to my wife, faithful
25:54
to my work.
25:55
I want to be the guy that shows up.
25:57
I want to be the guy that comes through.
26:00
What about you?
26:01
Yeah, I would.
26:02
Mister, I'm dotted.
26:03
Hey, you know what?
26:05
This isn't the memory.
26:06
I always have to remind you.
26:07
I'm the one that asks the questions, all right, I'm on this side of the microphone, all right.
26:11
But since you're so nice and since you asked so politely, I'll kind of get into that.
26:15
The funny thing about that, John, is what I see as a good man and how that attaches to
26:20
a Christian man changes constantly.
26:23
You know, I just read in a book here recently and I can't figure out what it was.
26:27
And I was thinking of it in terms now that I have a son on the way and a son that's here.
26:32
I don't know that everyone to say, Hey, James, be good.
26:36
Because that has cultural connotations.
26:39
It has church connotations and then it also has mainly connotations because a lot of
26:44
people would say in any and all aspects that violence is not a good.
26:48
And yet if my son comes across someone who is small that is being destroyed physically
26:52
or a woman that's being defiled physically, the good thing is for him to destroy that
26:57
man to stop him from doing what he's doing.
26:59
And so that's something that I'm thinking about constantly because I'm trying to think
27:03
through the lens of my 18 month soul and son, when he looks up at me, what does he see dad
27:08
doing?
27:09
Because I want to be a good Christian model for him and I want him to end up wanting to
27:13
be like a better version of daddy someday, but still himself.
27:17
So that's a kind of a deep philosophical thing, but that's something that I personally wrestle
27:22
with now because I've never been able to see myself through the lens of progeny, right?
27:27
You know, I've been able to see myself through tried to see myself through the lens of my
27:30
wife, or through the lens of some of my friends or training partners.
27:33
But now it's like, all right, you've got the ultimate mirror right there.
27:36
You know, he's he's this tall and stupid, but eventually he won't be.
27:40
And he's hopefully he says things nice about you.
27:42
You know what I mean?
27:43
Do I feel I feel like I'm a basket case just for saying all that out loud, but you know,
27:47
there it is.
27:48
That's kind of what's been going on my brain about it.
27:49
Becoming a dad changes everything.
27:52
It certainly does.
27:53
It's something that everybody says and then then it actually happens.
27:56
So but I want to hop back into this next one here because I really wanted to get your your
28:00
feedback on this is from unit three.
28:02
It's the becoming a king unit in its session for question five.
28:06
What aspects of you as a man feel the most atrophied and in need of restoration, healing
28:12
and growth, friendship, friendship, does that kind of back go back to your kind of need
28:24
or desire to maybe accomplish things alone?
28:26
Is that is that kind of the thing early that but man, like, okay, so if you knew my story,
28:32
we were sitting in a group and you know my story best man in my wedding killed best friend
28:38
in my first company that I started killed best friend therapist, writer, co-author killed
28:47
best friend that I had for 40 years vice president at wild apart died of cancer.
28:53
I just have a track record of a lot of loss there and so I am a very protected guy now
29:00
like there's this part of me that goes I don't know that I want to go through that again.
29:06
And so I can feel the atrophy of the friendship muscles in me, I need it, I want it but it's
29:16
not something that's that I'm getting a lot of exercise in and I can feel that's my that's
29:21
my frontier, I can feel God saying you got to get back in, you can't shut that down.
29:28
It doesn't work.
29:29
Well, I'm just going to shut it down for the rest of my life like that doesn't work.
29:34
So I can feel that that's frontier for me, those muscles, those muscles are weak.
29:40
So since you've experienced that atrophy and I'll answer it too if you want me to because
29:45
I know you're probably going to force me to do it anyway, but what are you doing because
29:49
you know, Jim bros, they see something atrophy on their body and they build it up, right?
29:53
Like they know the exercises and the workouts.
29:55
So I guess what are the exercises that you're in the process of doing or that you know that
29:59
you need to do in order to strengthen that muscle again.
30:03
Don't fish alone.
30:05
I love fly fishing and I can go by myself and have a ball, but I feel the invitation to
30:11
don't go alone this time.
30:13
Ask somebody to come with you like just simple stuff like that.
30:17
You know, even even at work, we've got a really tight team at work, but it's very easy to
30:22
blow through a day without just dropping in somebody's office with a cup of coffee, clear
30:27
20 minutes and just say, Hey man, what's up, right?
30:31
Simple as that.
30:32
Just what's up?
30:35
And there's no telling where that goes for a lot of guys.
30:38
And I mean, it could literally go nowhere, but I doubt when you look back on your day
30:42
and you do kind of your rundown as to the productivity that you had, you're not going
30:46
to look at that 20 minutes and been like, Oh, I could have wrote the next best seller.
30:50
If I could just get that 20 minutes back, you know what I mean?
30:53
But you know, for a lot of guys, we just ignore that, right?
30:55
Yeah.
30:56
Totally.
30:57
I'll hit you with one more of these questions and then we'll kind of move on to some other
31:00
stuff.
31:01
So this is from the last unit unit, unit five, fathered by God and it's session five question
31:05
four.
31:06
Do you long for a more intimate relationship with God or does that make you uncomfortable
31:11
and why?
31:12
The answer, John, I think even the framing of that question would make them uncomfortable
31:17
and it's the use of a single word, right?
31:20
You know, I'm going with this is intimate, right?
31:22
Because we have all these issues that have been created by these homo erotic modern worship
31:26
songs about the intimacy we're supposed to have with this Jesus fella, this bearded Danish
31:30
guy with blue eyes that we're supposed to longingly look into.
31:33
And then we hear the word intimate and it just, yeah, just feels icky, right?
31:37
And whenever you talk about intimacy with other guys that you're going to spend a year
31:41
with, it feels even icky or still.
31:43
So I'm asking the question, right?
31:45
Do you long for more intimate relationship with God while throwing out there when a lot
31:48
of guys are feeling, doesn't the question just make you feel wrong though?
31:52
Yeah, right.
31:53
I get it.
31:54
I get it.
31:55
Until you taste it.
31:56
Until you experience it.
31:57
It's just like brotherhood.
31:58
Until you taste it and you experience and you go, Oh my gosh, like there's just places
32:04
in your soul that no woman can fill, the unique guys in your life.
32:10
And when you taste that, you go, Oh, cow man, well, it's the same thing with God.
32:16
There are places in your soul that only God can fill.
32:19
And when you begin to taste it and experience it, you know, when you hear the father say
32:25
to you things like, wait a go, Kyle, you really crushed that.
32:30
I'm really proud of you.
32:32
I mean, holy smokes, man, not just it's food that you can't get anywhere else in your
32:38
life.
32:39
And so then you want more and you get into, you get into a life with God.
32:45
Well, okay, I'm sorry.
32:46
I'm on fishing this week.
32:47
I don't know why I'm on fishing this week, but normally it's shut down and color out
32:51
it when the winter, you know, rivers freeze over and it's cold, cold out there, man.
32:58
But a couple of weeks ago, we had a really nice day.
33:01
It's a Friday.
33:02
It's a really nice day and God said to me, yep, God spoke, he said to me, you really
33:09
ought to go fishing.
33:10
And I'm like, nah, I think I'll stay home, take a nap, you know, he's like, no, you really
33:16
ought to go.
33:17
And I went and it was so life-giving.
33:21
So like the adventure he has for you, the encouragement, the counsel, the guidance, are
33:29
you kidding me?
33:32
The more that I experience what God has really liked, his wildness.
33:39
There's nothing that can take its place.
33:42
So do I want more of that?
33:43
Yeah, I think that's a good reminder as well.
33:47
And I'm assuming you went fishing alone with shame on you.
33:49
You're not supposed to be doing that according to yourself.
33:51
But you know what?
33:52
Since God told you, we'll kind of let you off the hook.
33:54
No pun intended with the fishing.
33:56
And I think that's a great thing about a year with men is it's not just a 12 month plan.
34:00
It's not just a thing for your guys group to do.
34:02
It's not just, hey, you've done this.
34:04
Now what are you going to do for me next, John?
34:05
Right?
34:06
Hey, it's like a Netflix thing, you know, you binge season one.
34:08
You're like, we're season two.
34:09
It's like, well, it took them two years to make season one.
34:11
Can you chill out for five seconds?
34:13
But the good thing about this is there's no telling what year two.
34:17
If guys take this seriously, there's no telling what 2023 looks like.
34:21
There's no telling what type of content they're going to want to do, what type of adventures
34:24
that they're going to want to get out and go do, but it's about almost just being obedient
34:28
to the process.
34:29
Right?
34:30
You hear this a lot in a sports context a lot.
34:31
It's like, trust the process.
34:33
You know, hey, you're recovering from an injury.
34:35
Just trust the process, baby.
34:36
Don't get too far out ahead of yourself.
34:38
Don't lag behind.
34:39
Stay right in the pocket.
34:40
I think that's a really good thing that you've set up with this book.
34:42
So bravo to you and your team, you and your son for putting this together.
34:45
It is a great resource for men's groups.
34:47
Guys, again, it will be in the show notes.
34:49
But as we kind of work our way towards the end here, you are the type of person.
34:52
And just from what I know of your personality, you like to pull out to 30,000 foot and kind
34:57
of see the what's going on on the ground fairly often, whether it's in your organization
35:01
as you're writing or even just the world world in general and where we sit now, we just close
35:05
the book on 2021.
35:07
We're here in 2022.
35:08
This is January.
35:10
I want to kind of get your reflection on 2021 because 2022 or 2020 was everybody's like,
35:16
Oh, everything's fallen apart year and then 2021 was supposed to be better.
35:19
But it felt bad just in a different way.
35:22
But from your perspective, what do you think about 2021?
35:25
And is there a story, maybe a news story or something that happened that you feel like
35:29
is maybe a definable thing that happened from last year?
35:31
Well, I can give you the defining thing, but it wasn't in the news as much.
35:36
So in the summer of 2021, you could not get a rental car.
35:41
You could not get an Airbnb.
35:44
Airports were packed.
35:46
Restaurants were packed.
35:47
I'm a back country guy.
35:49
Kyle was insane.
35:51
I would go to these remote trailheads to hike in Colorado.
35:55
You couldn't find parking.
35:58
Wow.
35:59
It was nuts, man.
36:00
And then the rivers.
36:01
I mean, it was a heartbreak like you wanted to get on the river and get some fishing.
36:04
It was combat fishing.
36:06
It was good in every hole.
36:08
It was crazy.
36:10
So here's what that picture is.
36:12
That is binging.
36:15
And what the binging is, classic trauma behavior, world came out 2020, [inaudible] off, upset, traumatized,
36:24
fried, stressed out, and then they rushed out to get something to feel better.
36:32
Right?
36:33
Right.
36:34
Okay.
36:35
So that's the snapshot of 2021.
36:37
It was this global rush to binge and feel better.
36:43
A friend of mine went into a Lamborghini dealership and there wasn't a single car on the floor.
36:51
Now, he goes to a coffee shop next door to it.
36:54
So he gets his coffee.
36:55
He goes in the dealership just to look her up and look at cool $300,000 cars, right?
36:58
And he's like, "Hey, I'm so sorry.
37:00
You guys are closing."
37:01
And the salesman laughed at him and said, "We're not closing, man."
37:04
He says, "We can't keep a car on the floor in here."
37:07
Okay.
37:08
So it's that binging.
37:09
It's that huge.
37:10
Right.
37:11
Okay.
37:12
So the problem is that won't work.
37:18
What do I think is coming in 2022 if people don't deal with their stuff?
37:24
Depression.
37:25
I don't know a single therapist right now that has an opening and this is making the news.
37:32
Okay.
37:33
So this is a new snapshot, clinics, psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, therapists, nobody
37:39
has an opening.
37:41
Everybody has a backlist because humanity is not well and all that binging stuff isn't
37:46
going to work.
37:47
So if we don't deal with our well-being, I think it's going to be depression.
37:55
Well, I think it's a God-shaped hole in these people that a Lamborghini can't fix.
37:59
Now that's my dream car.
38:01
I'd love to have one, but there's only so many times you can drive that before the feeling
38:05
has to wear off because whether you're buying yourself a new pin that you like riding with
38:10
or you're buying yourself a new sports car, there is an end date to when that's going
38:14
to feel exciting, right?
38:15
And that's just the dopant and urgent system inside the brain to where it's like the dopamine
38:19
hit just wasn't nearly as intense as it was.
38:22
And again, you know, we're moving into midterms in 2022, which I feel like everything surrounded
38:27
around.
38:28
We've even seen the COVID narrative shifting in the last month or two, the gaslighting
38:32
has started.
38:33
Oh, no, no, for the last two years, we haven't been telling you that this was this way and
38:35
this was that way.
38:37
So that has me worried in 2022 as well, but I want to kind of ask you a two-part question
38:41
and you could just kind of keep flowing off of what you just said.
38:44
But I want to know what has you worried in 2022?
38:47
And then what has you excited, right?
38:49
Because I have a tendency to focus on the negative.
38:51
So we're going to end on a positive note.
38:53
So outside of some of the depression, you feel like that's going to come on the heels
38:56
of the binge we saw in 2021.
38:58
What has you worried in 2022 and what gets you excited?
39:02
Well, the global clampdown, I mean, the governments of this world are becoming increasingly oppressive.
39:10
And in that, that is something to be concerned about.
39:15
It really is.
39:16
You know, when you have forced vaccinations, when you have internment camps in Australia
39:20
for people who are COVID positive, that's just nuts.
39:23
That kind of stuff is nuts.
39:26
But it's happening around the world.
39:27
There's an increasing reach for control by governing authorities.
39:33
That has me concerned.
39:36
What has me positive, honestly, it was the trend we were talking about the beginning.
39:42
It's the men's movement.
39:44
It's the big story that's the untold story.
39:48
And I want it to stay untold, man.
39:50
I don't want this to get on Anderson Cooper or any of that stuff.
39:53
It's this.
39:54
It's the dudes listening here to your podcast is the guys reading my books is all this stuff
40:00
going on grassroots, man.
40:02
It is killer guys are becoming strong.
40:08
They're becoming really good dads.
40:11
They're getting involved.
40:13
I see it.
40:14
I'm excited for that.
40:17
So one thing that kind of comes off the heels of that is I feel like 2022 could be the year
40:23
of the red pill.
40:25
And so the red pill is obviously the movie.
40:27
It's a reference back to the matrix where it's like take the blue pill, the red pill.
40:30
Everything changes if you take the red pill.
40:32
When you see perhaps the most important name and journalism being Joe Rogan, right, a
40:38
comedian and a fight commentator, but this is a guy that's on a truth quest and he will
40:43
talk to anybody to get it truth.
40:44
Do you have guys like Jordan Peterson that's he's kind of coming out of the fog of his sickness
40:48
and his wife's sickness and he's going on tour for like nine months this year to talk
40:52
about beyond order and some of his books and some of these larger issues.
40:56
This is a man that's on a truth quest, right?
40:58
And people always want to kind of hitch their wagon, but I feel like that could be one of
41:01
the defining things about 2022 is kind of what you're saying.
41:04
It's these guys seeking out truth in these small cohorts and it's not making the local
41:09
news that these major media figures that are like, okay, okay, okay, I've been marinated
41:13
in this narrative.
41:14
I'm supposed to believe for the last two years.
41:16
And then I thought for myself for five minutes and everything seemed to change.
41:20
Am I maybe being a little bit too optimistic about what could possibly happen or is the
41:26
tidal wave coming?
41:27
No, I think the narrative is breaking down.
41:30
I really do.
41:32
And how quickly it will break down as hard to tell, but yes, the people, some people are
41:40
waking up.
41:41
Well, I'm certainly excited about that.
41:43
And that's why you're here.
41:44
And that's why I'm here is to kind of help guys on that journey.
41:47
But I want to go ahead and kind of wrap up with this question because I talked about
41:49
it earlier and I kind of have my own way of communicating.
41:51
That's good in some places and bad and others, but you're the wisdom field guy, right?
41:55
You're the sage in this moment.
41:57
So I told you about my how to avoid being a crappy man in 2022, right?
42:01
So again, like we've got, you know, don't be late and seek, seek wisdom over knowledge,
42:04
get some sleep, you know, relish in the opportunity to look like an idiot.
42:08
But if John Eldridge were to speak directly to my audience, if that were possible, because
42:11
you're doing it right now, what would be some of the things that you would tell my listeners
42:15
about how they could avoid being a crappy man in 2022?
42:19
You've got to get margin in your life.
42:22
If you're fried and you're burned out, you're no good to anybody and you will blow up.
42:28
Okay.
42:29
It's the hardest thing to fight for.
42:30
You've got to get some breathing room in your life.
42:33
You have to do things that bring you joy.
42:37
What brings you joy?
42:39
Because if your heart is full, then you have something to offer the people that you love.
42:44
Okay.
42:45
So margin and joy.
42:47
And I would say in this hour on the earth, don't, don't dink around with your spiritual
42:52
life.
42:53
Don't, don't toy around with that.
42:55
You have got to get serious about knowing God, walking with God, learning how to be
43:03
a warrior in prayer for the people that you love.
43:08
It's just not a time to be flabby spiritually, to be soft or atrophied spiritually.
43:15
You know, those three things alone change your life.
43:19
I think that's absolutely true.
43:20
And one thing that I put on my list is read the Bible for yourself.
43:24
Because one of the things that I didn't answer earlier, I asked you the question.
43:27
One thing that's atrophied for me was getting, letting God speak through the scripture to
43:31
me as opposed to him speaking through the pastor that's in my earbuds or right in front
43:35
of me at church or something like that.
43:36
I was letting them be the professional Christian and tell me what I should be knowing, right?
43:41
And so it's so funny because I'm the first guy to be like, I don't know if I could trust
43:45
that news guy with his fancy haircut and his nice tie, right?
43:48
I want to question the things that he's saying.
43:49
But then my pastor would say something or some other random pastor on YouTube would say
43:53
and I'd be like, yeah, yeah, I should probably just change my entire period.
43:56
I'm to fit that one thing that I didn't, you know, read for myself.
43:59
And so that that's one of the easiest ways for guys to really come around and figure out
44:04
what's going on in their spiritual life is spend time in the Word, spend time in prayer
44:07
and spend time in those awkward moments of silence where all they want to do is click
44:11
next on the next podcast or go to the next song or to the next episode or something like
44:15
that.
44:16
But that that's really a good way for guys to kind of coalesce around this idea of look,
44:20
God's there.
44:21
He's wanting to communicate with you, but you're, you're boxing them out.
44:24
You're not allowing him into your ears.
44:26
You're getting all this other stuff, all this other content, but, you know, that that's
44:29
kind of thing.
44:30
So it's always a good reminder to get that from a guy like you.
44:32
But man, we've talked so much on this podcast already.
44:35
It's been a great in the latest of our episodes, you know, the JE and KT show, which again,
44:39
we'll work on that for the future, but that is all for me for now.
44:42
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
44:44
No, man.
44:45
It's good to see you again.
44:46
I hope you have a great year and congratulations on your little boy.
44:50
I'm very excited and scared at the same time.
44:52
I'm not going to lie.
44:53
But thank you very much for that.
44:54
But John Elders, thank you for coming back on Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
44:57
Yeah.
44:58
Thanks, Kyle.
44:59
So guys, hope you enjoyed my third interview with John Elders, we're so glad that you
45:02
were here for it.
45:03
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life.
45:07
Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness.
45:09
And specifically, we do that with content like this podcast that helps you forge spiritual
45:13
mental and physical resilience.
45:14
So I've got one link for you today because I don't want you to get all distracted.
45:17
It is linked to the wild at heart website where you can check out everything that you
45:20
need to know about a year with men.
45:22
Thank you guys very much for listening to this.
45:24
We do appreciate it.
45:25
Wherever you're listening, please subscribe, rate and leave us a five star positive review.
45:29
If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, you should be an email
45:32
to info@undaunted.life, that's i-n-f-o @undaunted.life.
45:37
You can follow us on Instagram and TikTok and like us on Facebook and you can check out
45:40
our website for everything else, including kind of donate to keep more content like this
45:43
coming your way.
45:44
Just go to www.undaunted.life.
45:46
And also, we want to thank the band, August Burns Red, for allowing us to use their music
45:49
for our content.
45:51
The music on this podcast is our song, "Cutting the Ties," which is off their 10th anniversary
45:55
re-recording of their album, "Leveler."
45:57
The links are in the description.
45:59
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
46:01
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
46:08
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
46:29
[music]