JOEL MUDDAMALLE | The Unseen Battle (Ep. 898)

Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional, it is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31days to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31days. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. All right, guys, we have a special guest on the podcast today. His name is Joel Mudamalle. He is a theologian, author, and speaker, and he is the director of theology and research at Proverbs 31 Ministries under the leadership and tutelage of Lisa Turkeurst. He has a new book out right now called The Unseen Battle, Spiritual Warfare, The Three Rebellions, and Christ's Victory Over Dark Powers. Man, I really enjoyed the book, and I really enjoyed this interview today. And even right from the beginning, I knew it was going to work out cuz we have some very similar friend groups that we talked about there at the beginning. But, he made mention of his problems with contemporary Christian music. And if you've listened to this show for any length of time, you've heard me kind of elucidate some of my issues with what we see with modern Christian worship music. So, we talked in several ways about that, about how we sing our heresies before we believe them. He gave a great answer to that. But, then we we talked about a lot of different subject matters, you know, we brought up the Nephilim in this particular podcast, or the Nephilim, and kind of where he thinks they came from. Are there still descendants of Nephilim on this earth today? We talk about the three rebellions that we have or that man has had against God and how the gospel of Jesus Christ answers those things. And we also talk about well, how the heck did you end up as a theologian? How the heck did you end up working at a women's ministry? The issues he sees with a lot of modern women's ministries and how Proverbs 31 does it very differently. Yeah, I mean, you'll probably feel the same way after I did or as I did when you get to the end of this episode. It's like I had way more questions and I wanted to hear him talk so much more, but we just kind of ran out of time. And so guys, you're going to have to go pick up a copy of the new book, The Unseen Battle. And then also we might have to get him back on here to do another podcast, maybe even in person. We'll figure it out. But guys, I don't want to keep him from you any longer. So without further ado, let's get into it. Joel Muddamalle, welcome to Undaunted Life, a Man's Podcast. >> I appreciate it, Kyle. Thanks for having me man. >> Now, I'm just going to say right from the beginning, you seem to have a horrible taste in friends and apparently I do as well because Matt Chandler, Derwin Gray, Lisa Turkhurst, I mean, those those are that's a rowdy bunch right there. But those are buddies of yours as well, right? >> That's absolutely right. Yeah, they're friends and I'm glad that we get to connect and they are a rowdy bunch, man. You get Matt around you, he might, you know, go from preaching the gospel to getting you in a rear naked choke and doing some jiu-jitsu or Derwin's going to tackle you, you know, or Lisa looks super super sweet and super kind, but man, never play any games with her. That girl is cutthroat. She will absolutely mess you up in some Monopoly jail. And I'm pretty sure she could take you out, too. She just, you know, >> Hey, believe me, she's she's very much like one of our five percenters and I'll know when the last time Derwin tackled somebody was, but you know, you never know how good Matt Chandler is at jiu-jitsu until you yourself start training, Joel. And so you just throw on that ill-fitting ghee, throw on a white belt and just see what that 6'5 TRT'd up 50-something-year-old pastor can do. You never know. >> That's right. That's right. Actually, Kyle, I I started doing jiu-jitsu a while ago um, and Matt was the one who encouraged me. I took I've got uh four kids, three boys, they're 14, 13, and uh 12 now. Everybody's aging up. So, we got the boys out onto the mat, and uh I'll tell you what, man, uh nothing like a grown man being out there uh being a rag doll to some brown belts, you know, just just putting you through the wringer. And uh so, it was amazing, it was fun. I'm a hooper, I play basketball on Tuesdays, and so I've taken a little bit of a break from jiu-jitsu cuz I think I've got about another year left uh of uh of hoops, and so I want to try to try to maybe make a a run for the D-League. We'll see. >> All right. Well, hey, I'm a brown belt in jiu-jitsu, and so if we want to test out your theory about getting rag-dolled, I guess we can figure that out. And I'll let you reach out to Matt, and uh you can ask him how our rounds typically go. But we need to kind of get into everything that we're talking about here because you have a fancy-pants title. You, sir, whether you knew it or not, you're a theologian, right? And that's that's fancy. Like, that's that's a hard word to spell, much less pronounce or understand. So, how in the world did that happen? Were you sitting there as like a 4-year-old in the sandbox going like, "You know, one of these days, I'm going to be a professional Christian theologian. This is going to be awesome." How did that happen? >> No, I mean, for me, I feel like my life has been more of a mosaic than it's been a linear path of uh getting from A to A to B or A to Z. And so, um for me, man, it was just I got to start in ministry as a worship leader. Um started to get convicted on the songs that we were singing and the words that were being sung and whether or not they were accurate and true uh of the biblical text. Then, I started to grow an affection for the ancient hymns, and I was like, man, these hymns are, you know, they're not short like verse one, verse two, bridge, chorus, hook. Like, they're leading you through the biblical narrative. >> Well, and Joel, you also forgot, it's bridge in a different key, chorus, chorus, chorus, bridge again, build up, build up, chorus, chorus again, again. And so, that's kind of what we're used to now. >> Don't forget the minor chords to get you into an emotional drought, you know, and then lift you right back up. And so, so there we could have a lot of conversation about that. But basically, man, that was my entry point into just realizing I actually really deeply care about the biblical text, uh what the Bible actually says on its own terms. And so, um I ended up uh working for a Bible software company, Logos Bible Software, for many years. Um ended up doing my seminary degree from Knox Theological Seminary there. And then, um when I came to work for Lisa, I actually worked directly for her. Uh bring oversight to theological development and research at Proverbs. Uh I started a PhD program. And so, um did my PhD under two scholars, uh a guy named Dr. Patrick Schreiner, who was a brilliant New Testament scholar. Um and then my second reader was a guy named Dr. Michael Heiser, who um was a Semitics languages expert, a Hebrew Bible scholar. And uh honestly was not good enough to be training underneath uh either of them. And yet, uh that's where I find myself. And um Mike sadly was diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer as I was submitting my third chapter of my dissertation. And I really built my framework around uh a lot of his scholarship of spiritual warfare, divine council, God is a cosmic king of heaven and earth. And uh somewhere along the way we've kind of tamed him down uh into being, you know, our best friend. And not that he's not our best friend, but he's so much significantly more. Um he is the commander of a heavenly host. And so, in light of all that, uh that's what led me into the deep trenches of theological work. >> Well, I I want to get into a lot of that. I want to talk about uh Dr. Heiser, Lisa Turkhurst, Proverbs 31. But you opened up a can of worms. It's kind of a personal bugaboo for mine, and that's contemporary Christian music, CCM. Yeah. And it's because people think that CCM and worship music are the same thing, and it's only encapsulated in those categories. And so, Joel, for me, I was a metalhead growing up. I I was into underground Christian metal. So I went to a lot like underground Christian metal shows, right? I went and saw, you know, Underoath when they were still Christian, and Zao when they were still Christian, and Dead Poetic, and like Living Sacrifice like these kinds of bands Extol. And then at some point it was like am I broken? Is something wrong with me because these contemporary Christian music songs, you know, the stuff that's safe for the whole family like it just didn't it just didn't do anything for me and you know, over the last 20 years or so 20 plus years of being a Christian I've I've kind of gotten some different modalities of trying to explain it. You know, even through the daily blade I did two straight weeks of that show where I just talked about how worship music is not a category like a minor category of music. It's a macro category of music. So there can be hip hop worship music. There can be country worship music in the ska like all these different types of genres and so it's like singing praise to the Lord is not optional and so just because you turn on Air 1 and you're like well this kind of sucks. That doesn't mean you get to opt out of worship, right? But the modern church Joel, it's just force-feeding you and especially I'm you know, my my audience is male like I happen to be one of those as well. And so a lot of pastors seem very comfortable castigating their congregations of men for sitting there with their hands in their pockets staring at the screen but it's like wait a minute. This isn't congregational singing. There aren't multiple parts where the male voice can be heard like even this Sunday at my church Joel. Sorry for the long setup but this is so important to me. There was a song that they sang and again this these are all volunteer worship people and I'm so thankful for what they do. The key and I don't know a lot about music. The key was so high. I was like I don't know of many women that can hit that high on the register much less any of the men and so men are stuck looking at these lyrics which are in some cases homoerotic in some cases very confusing talking about Jesus like he's this cute cuddly you know thing not the lion of Judah talking about God like he's just a big fan of theirs and not the creator war god of the universe, right? And so man, I've I've had Christians I've that have been told that hey, if you don't like CCM, you're you're not a Christian. That was told to me by a worship leader here in the Oklahoma City area. And brother, it's just there's something different when you're singing congregational hymns versus just what's being currently played on Christian radio. And so there's not an actual question in there, but I would love for you to talk more about that. >> No, man. I think what you're drawing out is the need for intentional discipleship, honestly, within the context of your local church. And also, I'm kind of passionate about worship leaders writing songs for their immediate contacts. And I think sometimes people are like, man, I can't do this. I'm I'm not a Chris Tomlin or you know, whoever is the A-lister worship leader. And yet I think if you talk to a bunch of those dudes, they'd be like, well, when we first got started, it wasn't for that. It was for a local congregation that we kind of knew what was happening in that space. And guess what happens? When you're aware of your local church, when you're aware of the guys that are sitting in the in your pews, when you're aware of what they're listening to, what is the what is on their records, what they're you know, kind of motivated by, you have the flexibility to write congregational music that fits the ethos of your particular context. And then side side note, if you read through the Psalms, the Psalms actually all have genre. And guess what? They're not all the same. Correct. You know? So you've got lament, you've got praise, you've got deep anxiety, you've got warfare music. I mean, you look at so yeah, you got Thanksgiving. I I want to go back to the warfare music, you know? Like you've got particular Psalms, Psalm 110. You got other Psalms where um these songs were sung in the context of military combat. Like these dudes are getting ready to go out into war. And in the midst of war, they're recognizing their deep dependence on Yahweh. And so all of that I would just say is a retrieval of discipleship and also I think a fight against the cultural trend of what everybody else is doing and what are like the top 10 on CCLI versus like what are the top 10 for your immediate contacts? Like like what do your people need to hear? What's actually going on there? And then also just like a fact check. Like and I I I have a passion for this cuz I was a worship leader. Like fact check the lyrics of the songs to the biblical text. Right? Like hey, is this true? Is this contextually true? Is this the theologically true? Does this There are things that preach well but live horribly, you know? And so it's like is actually edifying not just from a conceptual standpoint but but from a pragmatic standpoint. And I think you'd be surprised at just a simple fact check. You might start to have a little bit of hesitation. And guess what? You can change lyrics. You can change You can change You can change up stuff, right? You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And we don't need to demonize other people. We don't need to be like oh man, like they're they're all failing at it. We've got the right way versus saying no, we're doing the right thing for our contacts that the world has brought into our churches so that we can shepherd and disciple them well. >> I remember >> Well, I appreciate that and I remember the first time I heard Jobie Martin and you know, my good friend in ministry talked specifically about how at their church they will change lyrics to songs that don't align with what we see in revealed scripture. And I I don't remember where I heard it first but it's like you will sing your heresies before you believe them. I I I forget who the the original person that gave that quotation was. But my goodness, is that not true? And so you'll hear someone say something in a prayer or say something in a sermon and it's like wait a minute. That was in a Bethel song. Wait a minute. That was in a Hillsong song. That was in whatever. And I guess you know, one more question on this before we get into everything else cuz we have a lot of ground to cover today. I I've heard this and I I can argue both sides and I don't really like that. I like black and white. I don't really like arguing in the gray. It's not my favorite thing. I hate when people use the word nuance. It's like, you know, pouring acid in my ears. But when somebody says hey if you sing Bethel music, that is fruit of the poisonous tree because of the heretical things done by that ministry or by their head ministers or I mean for instance, and that's even come to a head even more so recently. Then you got Hillsong and it's like, hey, you can't be downstream of Carl Lentz and Brian Houston. Like that is fruit of the poisonous tree. But then there are songs by both of those bands that I've mentioned and you could throw elevation in there. You can throw, you know, all kinds of people in there to where it's like, wait a minute, but this song that was not written by Furtick or Houston or Lentz or whoever else, this song checks out. Checks out with scripture. It can be sung by an entire congregation or sung with a worship band with 47 people on stage and only five of the mics are turned on. It can It could be sung in multiple ways and be edifying to the body. But man, some people are like, there's enough out there to choose from to where you don't have to take from these ministries that obviously have some pretty rough things if not just outright heresy. What would you say to that? >> Yeah. Uh I would say one of the most devastating things was when I found out that one of my favorite theologians, uh Karl Barth, uh who's a brilliant systematic theologian, um when you get into his systematic theology commentary in his section on love, you start to scratch your head a little bit cuz you're kind of like, what the heck is going Why is this this dude never like actually says what love is. And he almost elevates love to this place that love is God. Like, you know, the text is God is love, but it's almost like the way that he's theologizing this is like love is God. Come to be behold, homeboy um had a live-in mistress. Like live in his assistant was his live-in mistress while his wife was still there living a full-blown life of of duplicited, you know, duplicity. So, it's like, well, what do we do with these theology thoughts? What do you do What do we do with these commentaries, you know? Um is there still uh gospel truth that can be found in in theological writing that can be helpful? Well, sure. Uh do I read his stuff on love and take it for like the way that I Absolutely not. In fact, I probably never look at that unless I want to see how not to do it, you know? And so I would just say that when it comes to these kinds of things, you you nailed it. You're kind of like, "Hey, do the lyrics on their own pan out?" And if they do, is this healthy and helpful for your particular church? And if you have other options that are there that are as good if not better, then why would you not choose those? You know? Why would you not opt opt for those? And so I think that another thing that we take for granted is the amount of time that ought to probably pass before we just start pushing the stuff back out there. So there might be something to say about time and distance from this. And guess what? If you leave a lot of time and these songs, the truth that's inside of there is still relevant and still applicable generations later, then you're now disconnected from the people and then you're actually now connected to the actual eternal truth that these songs are sung by. I mean, it's like the tried and true true. It's like, man, look at the this Honestly, for the wisest person in the world, Solomon, to also be simultaneously the most stupid person in the world, you know? Look at David. We find all these examples. One of the hard things for us is we don't get to see on a direct relational note what is the level of repentance, what is the level of of authentic, you know, accountability, things like that. So we have to do the best that we can with information that we have. And so sometimes time is the best indicator. And then also like looking at these songs on their own terms disconnected from these people. So yeah, that's what I would say. >> Hey guys, real quick. You may have noticed a lot of companies out there that are advertising and marketing that they're American companies, but guess what, guys? All their manufacturing and all their jobs are overseas, right? These companies are manufacturing overseas in order to increase their profit margins, but they're allowing globalism to put America and Americans behind. And I've been wanting to partner with an American company with really all across the board American companies that prioritize American workers, their families, and keep their word. 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They're getting more into kind of men's casual stuff. They have indestructible hoodies. They're launching new apparel all the time. It's just an amazing, amazing company. So, guys, if you haven't already, you need to check them out and support a company that supports Americans. Try Origin out today by going to originusa.com. That's originusa.com. Use the promo code Undaunted to get 10% off your order. Again, that's originusa.com. Promo code Undaunted to get 10% off your order. Well, and I would say amen and amen cuz one of the things I thought about recently is like, okay, when you look at famous hymns, right? So, even going back to the Doxology, which might be the earliest thing that we have, you know, in terms of like Christian congregational worship, uh in the you go, "It is well." or you know, wha- whatever. Pick your favorite hymn. These things have endured centuries for centuries. They've been sung by congregations, they've been remixed, they've had beats added to them, they've had drum lines and bass lines, and they stand up. For what we see now, kind of in CCM, it's just this churning of okay, this is what's popular right now, this is who is popular right now. But, and I'm not throwing shade on any of these people cuz I happen to like all these people, but like Shane and Shane, Phil Wickham, Brandon Lake, I'm I'm big fans of all those folks. Are their songs, their originals, will those be sung 250 years from now by church congregations? I would say for the most part the answer's going to be no, because all those groups, they they write really incredible songs, they put out they put out great music, but at the same time it's like is this going to have the enduring impact on the kingdom, you know, you know, who knows what what that's going to be like. And then also, I mean, when you brought up certain ministers, look at what Ravi Zacharias did to everybody. How many people can say I got saved in an RZIM event or I've benefited from the philosophy of Ravi Zacharias, but we have a book list on our website, the 100 books every modern Christian man should read list. We took our Ravi Zacharias book off of it because, you know, it's a living list. We take books on and off all the time throughout the years, but it was just one of those things where it it the benefits of having that on the list were far outweighed by the negatives and the questions that would be asked about having something like that on there. And so, you do have to take all that into consideration. You bring up Solomon. I mean, read Proverbs and then read Ecclesiastes, right? And so, it's like that is bookends of this dude's life and sanctification and his his overall journey. But, I do want to talk a little bit more about your work with Proverbs 31 Ministries with Lisa TerKeurst, who is spectacular and fantastic. But, you're a dude working for a women's ministry. You know what I mean? Like how in the world did did that happen? >> Oh, man. I don't I don't Well, that's a whole different podcast episode. We might need to have Lisa on here. Honestly, what happened was I was working for a Bible software company selling Bible software, and I was teaching part of my presentation was to teach a section in the in the text in the scripture John 4 actually and Lisa saw me doing that I was on a tour called women of faith which is this large kind of women's ministry event and she saw me and she was like hey when are you going to stop selling Bible software and start actually teaching the Bible and so she honestly saw something in me that was an encouragement and then she started to kind of explain her vision at Proverbs which was to eradicate biblical poverty more people have access Kyle to the biblical text than ever before and yet I think we've actually become dumber for it you know like we have more access to it but I think it's for sure we become dumber you know and and it's like access doesn't actually equate to intelligence at all and so I kind of was like man we have lost how to actually understand the the Bible on its own terms or how to at least read critically in in read with an intentionality not impose our 21st century understanding on a biblical text that's not trying to answer our modern scientific questions but actually like um invite us into the storyline of scripture the storyline of God and his ideal to restore and bring reunification to his family and so that was kind of my journey to Proverbs and so she kind of pitched an idea and I was living in Chicago at the time and we relocated to Charlotte where the ministry is located and I kind of have I think the best job in the world I get to study the Bible read commentaries work on research and book projects and then Lisa and I and our another friend Jim Krats who's a therapist we have a podcast that we co-host called therapy and theology and so we get to do that and that's a big part of what we do at Proverbs is through that podcast. >> Well I think it's important you bring up a very interesting thing because we purport to be the most technologically advanced so we have access to basically all the information that's ever been recorded in human history but we don't learn it and we don't know it because we can just ask our phones to to bring it up for us or we just go to our favorite chatbot, or we go to our favorite AI and just say, "Hey, give me a rundown on this thing." So, we don't need to know how to summarize the Book of Nehemiah ourselves, because we can just ask our phone to do it. It's the same thing, like why would you learn uh formulas if you can just have your graphing calculator do it for you? It's just kind of like a downstream consequence of that. But, one thing I do want to talk about because I don't think that Proverbs 31 can certainly be considered in this, but there are a lot of women's ministries out there that I think are doing a major disservice to non-believing women and to Christian women, because a lot of these women's ministries, they just seem to be about, "Hey girl, you're perfect the way that you are. Like, God made you this way. You're fine." Women never get called out for sin. I think a lot of this is downstream of four different waves of feminism that has just been pounding our culture. And the more that I learn and think about feminism, and obviously when you get into the occultic beginnings of the entire movement, it's just like this the nefarious things that have happened to society, culture, and the church because of feminism can't be understated. We currently have a a current cohort of young men who have never been more religious and never been more politically conservative, and their female counterparts counterparts have never been less focused on getting married and having children. And, you know, in terms of like having faith or being conservative politically, it's basically nonexistent, right? And so, there are a lot of issues that go in there, but I just got to be honest. When I see clips or when I hear from different female ministers, it's just like, "Well, well, no wonder." It's these And then, pastors don't do any of us any favors because women leave Mother's Day services floating feeling like they've never sinned before. Whereas, after a Father's Day service, the men feel like they went, you know, 10 rounds with prime Mike Tyson. And so, it's like you get this inequity where women feel like, "Hey, they're just precious flowers and don't do anything wrong and certainly aren't depraved." And the men just need to get their act together. So, what are your thoughts on kind of like how Proverbs 31 approaches the women versus how you've other things you've seen on the marketplace? >> Yeah, man. Honestly, this is one of the things that we're so passionate about at Proverbs, which is why I've been there for the last 10 years. Which is we want to be able to deal with that biblical literacy part. Because if you don't like work through the text, you're not going to deal with sanctification, you know? If you don't go through books of the Bible, like from Genesis through Revelation, you get to cherry-pick what you like, what you don't like, what you want to feel in the season, what you don't want to feel in the season. And so, one of the projects that I work on pretty significantly is called First 5, and it's an app that anybody can get totally free. And yet, we work exegetically through the biblical text. When I first started, we had just started in the Gospel of John, and then we had kind of worked through all the different books of the Bible. And so, now we've already gone through the entire Bible once. It took us about 6 years, and we're doing our second trek all the way throughout the Bible. And so, I think that, you know, this actually goes to a bit of my book for the unseen battle in terms of spiritual warfare. And I think what you just described is a perfect example of spiritual warfare. Because one of the things that is happening that I think the enemy is absolutely about is about confusion. Particularly confusion in a unholy exchange, right? There's always these unholy exchanges. Like, here's what you can have, here's what you want to have. And there's this kind of pattern, Kyle, that's going on through the first couple chapters of Genesis, where it's this pattern of see, desire, and take. So, Eve sees of the fruit, she desires of the fruit, and then she's like, man, I want this knowledge, and she takes of the fruit, right? In Genesis 6, you have the exact same issue with these sons of God and these daughters of men, who I argue the sons of God are angelic beings, the watchers of the fallen sons of God. And you have them see the daughters of men, desire the daughters of men, and then they take the daughters of men. In fact, the exact same Hebrew phraseology that's used of King David with Bathsheba. By the way, David was supposed to be out to war. He wasn't out to war like was right and proper for the kings of the of wartime. He's sitting in the balcony, he sees Bathsheba, he desires her, and then he takes her for himself. And the connection point back to this is I think that we have a world in a society that is presenting to us all kinds of things that we want to see and that we want to desire, and then we're being presented as if those are the things that will give us a flourishing life, you know? And so, when it comes to not just women's ministry, but also men's ministry, like what what are guys looking at? Man, your your Instagram feed is a good tell of what's happening in your life, you know? Like it's a really good tell because those algorithms are insanely good at trying to figure out what your actual desires are. And you're consistently being fed counterfeit desires. And so, I think that the way that you contradict that, the way that you deal with that, is by every time you see something and then you desire that thing, instead of being bought into I've got to take it for myself, you know? It's whether it's hustle culture, whether it's I don't want to be challenged, I don't want to read the Bible, I don't have enough time, I don't want to fast, I don't want to pray, I don't want to go to church, it's just too much for me, I've got social anxiety, whatever those things are. It's like, wait a minute, take a step back and say, what is the normative experience of the people of God that is presented to us through the scriptures? And so, instead of the see and the desire, it's like, hey, you can acknowledge that in honesty, but instead of take, you sit back and you wait for the Lord to receive, to give to you so that you can receive from him. And then when he gives you his marching orders, you act, you go, and you do. I think a big issue is you get the marching orders, you see what the text tells you to do, and you're not happy with it. >> Yeah. >> That's not the thing that you wanted. So, you're like, well, I'll just wait until another thing comes my way in order to be kind of enticed by that. And so, that's where at Proverbs we are just so committed to taking people back to the biblical text, you know? And it's just amazing. When you work all the way through the Bible, all of your felt needs, all of your emotional chaos, all of your relational dysfunction, at some point in time is going to be dealt with inside of the text. But, if you sit back, and you just try to cherry-pick what you want, your natural tendency often is not going to be to be like, today is a great day I want to be challenged. Today is a great day that I want to be confronted with my crap. Today is a great, you know? And so, it's like, man, we need to submit ourselves to the text and allow the text, and it's Galatians chapter 5. It's Paul in the spirit of God, right? Like, keep in step with the spirit, walk with the spirit, and be led by the spirit. Basically, go wherever the spirit goes, and where where the spirit of God doesn't go, you don't go. And that takes a lot of discipline and submission to God. >> And this applies to women, but it certainly applies to men as well. A lot of times we take whatever the stimuli is, whatever the input, whether we feel like it's God tugging on us or something we see in scripture, but we make what's revealed in scripture subservient to what culture says is important, or what culture says we should be focused on. And you're right, these algorithms are really, really good at creating a silo for you. So, if you go to my discover page on Instagram, there's a lot of, you know, Bible stuff, jujitsu, animals dying, tattoos. Like, it's just, you know, it's like, all right, that's the stuff that I'm into, metal. And with women, it's it's the stuff that we've already talked about. It's, girl, you're good enough. And you know, this isn't actually a problem with you, this is a problem with your hormones. It doesn't have to do with your decision-making. You know what, this is a problem with society because society just wants you to be barefoot and pregnant. And think about the amount of effort that had to be put into convincing women that staying home, homeschooling their kids, and cooking a meal for their husband, you know, for him, you know, to have whenever he gets home from work, that that is somehow oppression. That that is Handmaid's Tale, that that is something something awful that you you can't be a part of. And so, I'm glad that there are ministries out there like what you guys are doing with Proverbs 31. But, we do need to really get into some of the stuff that you talked about from the book because here's the book, guys, The Unseen Battle, Spiritual Warfare, The Three Rebellions, and Christ's Victory Over Dark Powers. So, I do want to read a quote from the very beginning of the book. >> Yeah. >> C.S. Lewis once said, "There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence, the other is to believe and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight." Then, a little bit later he said this, "We need a return to a biblically balanced approach regarding the cosmic reality of our world that protects us from obsession, yet does not reject what is explicit in scripture." So, Joel, why this book, why now, why you? >> Yeah. So, honestly, this was the topic of my PhD dissertation. So, I spent five and a half, almost six years deep in primary sources writing a dissertation really arguing that God is a good father. He's the king of heaven and earth, and he's determined to have his family back together. And so, this sat honestly on the shelf as a dissertation for years and years. I wrote a different book called The Hidden Peace, a book on retrieving the ancient virtue of humility. And then, man, honestly, I was in Atlanta and I was with my family. I was speaking at a church out there, and we went to this really cool spot called Ponce City Market. And the bottom floor is like all this really cool food stuff, and the second floor is these boutique shops and, you know, that kind of deal. And so, my daughter MJ was about four at the time. So, we've got four kids, three boys and a little girl, and she's super into Barbies and, you know, ponies and all that kind of Legos, all that kind of stuff. And there was a cool toy store upstairs. So, we walk upstairs, we get over there, and And know the most important place in in real estate for of real estate for sales is the glass window in the front. And I remember walking up and I overhear a dad and his teenage daughter. And the teenage daughter goes, "Daddy, what's that? Can we look at that?" And I heard the dad just kind of fumble. And I'm like, I'm a people watcher. So I'm like, "Why is he fumbling? What is that?" And he looks up and they're pointing. And what the And I could not believe it. I mean, this is like Legos, Monopoly, and a Ouija board. Legos, Monopoly, Ouija board. And then it was like Barbies and unicorn ponies or whatever else. And the dad had something inside of him where he goes, And C.S. Lewis refers to this as that moral compass that embedded in all of humanity, regardless of if you're a believer or not, you have a general instinct of what is right and what is wrong. And I believe that that moral compass had kind of ticked, right? It's like, "Wait a minute, there's something odd about this." But he didn't really have a framework of what that is and why you ought not to be messing with that. And he had been actually each other. And I remember reading the thing underneath it. It was like the branding was like, "Get the answers to the questions that you've always asked or longed for, you know?" And it was the secret hidden knowledge stuff. And he ended up going in there and checking out the Ouija board. And for me, at that point, I was like "Oh this is not a question of if spiritual warfare is happening, if deceptive spirits are out there, if you know, we're being enticed." It's like, "We are." But the question is like, are we actually equipped to see it for what it is and to know what the Bible actually says about these things. And the illustration Kyle is like, "Man, I think that as a society, we are that frog that is in that pot of water on a burner. And over a period of time, that fire is being turned up. And we have become desensitized to the spiritual realities around us. And I'm seeing this a lot with a bunch of dudes now. You know, they're like, "Man, it's like creatine. It's like, you know, all the good like whatever good stuff." But then it's like, "By the way, you could do like DMT and ayahuasca to get enlightenment. Like you can go into these like jungles and do, you know, and and and it's being presented to them as something that is good, holy, and true for you. Um and in the end of it, you're actually encountering encountering demons. Like actual spiritual beings that literally hate your guts. Like hate everything about you. Um and so that was the why behind this book is I'm like I'm thinking about that dad. And what I wanted that dad to be able to say was, "Oh babe, no. That's absolutely not, you know, in in the bib in the Bible, there's a story about Saul and the witch of Endor." And by the way, things go horrifically horriblically like, you know, just terrible for Saul because he sees a medium and calls up this thing. Uh and you know, Leviticus 19 it says that we should have nothing to do with mediums and with witchcraft and with sorcery. Um and by the way, like why would we want to even mess around with any kind of spiritual thing when we have the spirit of God inside of us? The spirit of God. The same spirit of God that rose Jesus from the dead. Like why are we messing with these counterfeit spirits um when we actually have uh something significantly better. And so out of that pain point, I was like, "You know what? Uh I want to write a book that uh is theologically substantive, you know? It's like it's going to push you. Uh it's going to push on your theology. There's Greek and Hebrew in there. I transliterated everything so that you you know, you can't use the excuse, 'Well, I don't know Greek or Hebrew.' Well, I transliterated it all. I've got definitions in there. I've got footnotes and bibliography for you to chase down. Um but it was intended to be kind of this one-stop shop for you to be able to get a biblical theological framework of the cosmic battle that you and I are in. And every battle always has a prize. There's never been a battle in all of human history that has ever been fought unless there was a prize, right? Like look at the downfall of Troy for Helen. That's why the whole thing goes down. She was the prize. Well, the prize for the unseen battle that you and I are in has been is and always will be about the people made in the image and likeness of God. >> Well, it reminds me of a quote from Eric Metaxas, one of his latest books, where he talks about, you know, a lot of people are leaving powder for tomorrow's battle, right? You know, think of old school muskets, but they're they're keeping back some powder for tomorrow's battles, but the war might be over by then. And here you are, you never gotten into the battle, but I think for most people they don't realize it's a battle. It's funny you bring up Ouija boards. When I was trying to explain to people the satanic and occultic foundations of something like the Enneagram, a lot of people were kind of confused. They're like, "Well, I don't really understand." Like, "Look, you know, there's there's books from Christian publishers, and there's pastors that use the Enneagram, and I've done it, and it helped me understand my spouse, or my kids, or my boss, or whatever." And Joel, I I admitted to people, I was like, "Look, I used to get paid to do Enneagram. I would do some consulting with C-suites, and I would have everyone do the Enneagram so I could know something about them, so they could know something about each other." And then I went down the rabbit hole and found out that the guy that invented the thing, he did it via automatic writing. Well, what the heck is that? That's basically where you go into some sort of a trance, and you put your pen on the paper, or your hands on the keyboard, and you let the spirit control you. And then I'm like, but people would still be kind of confused. I'm like, "Ouija board." They're like, "Oh." I'm like, "Yeah. Yeah, that's basically what you're in, but it's the it's the pragmatism. It's like, you know, I literally watched a debate where a Christian pastor was like, 'Look, how bad can the Enneagram be? It works. It works when I'm doing counseling with with, you know, a married couple that's struggling, or with people that are, you know, premarital counseling, or any anyone, our elder board, all those types of things.' And it's like, 'Man, Satan is so crafty because he's giving you stuff that works cuz if it didn't ever work, there'd be no such thing as new age, there'd be no such thing as new thought because all those things would be bunk, and we would know that they were bunk because they would never lead to a positive outcome.' But it's like I I had a Satanist in my studio. He was a practicing Satanist for 20 years. He was a LaVeyan Satanist, which is an atheistic Satanist, and then he became a theistic Satanist. And he goes, "Kyle, you know you know Satan can heal, too. You know, Satan can give things that seem like blessings as well." But all of his blessings, it's like a lure on a It's a fishing lure. It's like it looks enticing. It's beautiful. It thinks You think it's going to solve a problem for you, but it's got a hook. >> And it's laced in cyanide. Yeah. >> Yeah, it's like whenever Satan gets his hook in you, it's it's a big problem. But I think part of the the struggle, Joel, with this entire conversation, and you really do talk about it or at least introduce it in the books, is there are different realms. >> Yeah. >> And there are people that can't even handle the realm that we're in, right? They can't handle the stimuli to eat the donut versus eating, you know, uh the egg or something like that. So, they they can't even really fathom what's going on in this realm, so they don't either have a plausibility structure or some sort of an idea of what a different realm could be. And so, help help the people listening to this right now understand what are the different realms and how do they all coalesce together? >> Yeah. So, I mean, I want to just say first thing, that what you just described is spiritual warfare. >> Right. >> The the I can't eat the donut, you know, or I want to eat the donut, but I I should eat something that has good protein, right? Um and so and then it's like, man, of course you can't focus on the unseen battle because you're failing at the battle that's right in front of you. Like the the physical the physical battle. I think of 1 Peter 5:8, you know, Peter's like, "Hey, by the way, be sober-minded. Be sober-minded and resist the enemy that he might he might flee from you." Well, why why be sober-minded? Um that Greek word sober-minded uh has an antonym in the New Testament. And um that word uh the opposite of the of the sobriety, uh it was a word that was used of hallucinative episodes in the temples, like temple of uh of Delphi. You know, these different oracles would elicit and then utilize this. And so, they would say like, "Hey, the way that you can interact with the um spiritual beings, the gods uh per se, is through hallucinative ex- experiences. And you got to actually have an inebriation of mind. And look at how Yahweh, look at how God flips the whole script. He's like, "By the way, I want you to interact with me and know me not in the state of inebriation, but in a state of sobriety." So, in a place of sobriety, you can rightly see, rightly know, and rightly do. And and so, I would just be like, "Man, that that There are some overlooked We try to This goes to the C.S. Lewis quote. We go We try to sense sensationalize spiritual warfare where everything is demon exorcism, everything and listen, I believe in that stuff. I've seen that stuff. I mean, I'm Indian. I've been in the hood in India and the death temple, you know, I've seen like some of the scariest things in the unseen realm. And and you know what else is happening consistently all around us? People that don't take their health seriously. People who are numbing out on Netflix binging. People who are literally obsessed with Instagram reels and in TikTok reels where that has become their true sense of reality. And Paul uses this language in the New Testament Kyle powers principalities and authorities. And when he uses that, um these words in the Greek New Testament have a double entendre. They have a double meaning where when Paul is using them, he's using them to talk about actual spiritual beings that have a focus and responsibility to work through systems and structures. This is 1 Corinthians that says, you know, if the powers and authorities knew what what they were doing, they would have never sent Jesus to the cross. Well, who sent Jesus to the cross? Is it the Romans and the Pharisees and the Sadducees? Yes. But is it just them? No. Who else? The dark powers. The dark powers working in and through these human systems and structures. And if they knew what was going to happen and so, all that to say is I think that when we talk about the unseen realm and the seen realm, we're going to back into a little bit of the biblical theology. There's a reason why the enemy loves to distract us with addiction to opioid drugs, right? Pills, over-the-counter pills opioids even good things that are helpful for us like I I'm a I love the idea of physical fitness, CrossFit, all that. I think that's great. When good things become ultimate things, they always become idolatrous things. When good things become ultimate things, they always become idolatrous things. The enemy loves using good things to make them idolatrous things to disconnect us from the one who created all of this. And so, when it comes to the unseen realm and these different realms, you and I live in the 21st century where we like to demarcate like this is physical and this is spiritual, you know? And yet the biblical text itself, the biblical authors themselves in the Old and New Testament, they don't create these series of separations. Eden, mountains, all the way in Genesis chapters 1, 2, and 3, Eden is a garden that's on a mountain. And the ancient Near Eastern worldview viewed these mountains as the place where heaven and earth met. It was the place where God like the height king of heaven resided. It was where he was going to have his family. It was the the meeting place where he would give instruction and vocation. By the way, the Great Commission, the great instruction first given to Adam and Eve takes place in Eden on a mountain. They weren't supposed to stay in Eden forever. They were to supposed to take the goodness of Eden and spread it out and into the world. And so, what we have taking place from Genesis 3 and the fall on afterwards is a series of separations. Humanity separated from God. God is now in a place where he's trying to have his family back together, but you also have human to human separation. And all the way through the biblical text, you have this sense that though we're disconnected in a way from the spiritual realm, that doesn't mean the spiritual realm isn't existent. In fact, often we find the collision of the spiritual realm and the earthly realm consistently. Think about all the angelic appearances that take place. One with Abraham when he sits down with the three, you know, the two angelic figures, one of them being God, Yahweh himself, and he sits down and he has a meal with them, you know? That's that's physicality and the it's a in-breaking of the spiritual realm. Um, you find this on Mount uh Carmel with Elijah who goes and gives a an absolute whooping to the false god Baal on top of this mountain. Well, that's cosmic conflict taking place. It is a collision. Look at the 10 plagues of Egypt. Each of the 10 plagues is actually aimed at one of the deities of the Egyptian pantheon. Once again, and you said something that was so good in the very beginning, um, if there wasn't a sense of legitimacy to these dark powers and their ability, why in the world would you even do any of that in the first place? It actually makes no coherent sense. And in fact, the text explicitly in Exodus says, um, that Yahweh does this in order to deliver fair deliver the people out of Pharaoh's grasp and also to prove this all uh his supremacy to the gods of Egypt as well. So, if they did not exist, if there wasn't an actual ontological reality of these beings, then it would make no sense for Yahweh to initiate these 10 plagues and then have a pillar of fire at night and a pillar of cloud during the day. Um, and so in the ancient world, um, they there was this sense that these two realms were always intended to interact together, that one impacts the other and what happens in the other impacts the other. It it is a uh duality of relationship. And yet today, we kind of live like, "Oh, man, it's not really, you know, it's just the earthly realm that that we see and um and we pray, you know, we might worship and um and yeah, God lives somewhere up in the ethereal somewhere, uh but we don't have a real sense of how God always intended for heaven and earth to be one united place where he cosmically rules and reigns." >> Hey guys, real quick. You've probably heard the phrase "ignorance is bliss", right? Well, some of you are ignorant about where the beef that you buy at the grocery store comes from and what it took to get to you. So, that single package of grocery store ground beef can contain meat from over 100 different cows, sometimes from multiple countries. And if one of those cows was sick or mishandled in some way, it's mixed right into your dinner. So, most people don't realize that some ground beef at the store isn't just beef, either. It's scraps and trimmings chemically treated with ammonia to kill bacteria and then blended in to bulk up the weight of what you're buying. It's legal, it's cheap, and it's on the plates of Americans all over the country, usually without the customer ever knowing. So, even if you buy what you think is a nice roast or steak, it's been passed from feedlot to processor to packaging plant, handled by people who will never eat it, and raised by farmers who will never see the end product. And in that journey, the cattle were likely fattened on hormone-packed feed, pumped full of antibiotics just to survive cramped feedlot conditions, and processed alongside meat from hundreds of other animals. And by the time it hits your grill, you don't know whose cow was, what it was fed, or what's actually in it. I don't want you or your family eating low-quality, jacked-up beef. That's why I want you to use the official beef delivery partner of Undaunted Life, Primal Beef. So, Primal Beef is a cattle operation owned and operated by Shawn Glass. He's a retired Navy SEAL that partnered with Jocko Willink to launch Primal Beef. So, what makes Primal Beef different from other beef delivery companies? It's a combo of the following. All American Black Angus cattle, and the beef comes from one farm, and that's in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley. The beef is all natural, no hormones ever, no mRNA ever. And after slaughter, the entire carcass is dry-aged, then hand-cut by artisan butchers, and then flash frozen to ensure that it maintains tenderness, marbling, and flavor. And here's another cool thing. For every box sold, Primal Beef donates meat directly to a member of America's special operations forces through the C4 Foundation. So you can take pride in knowing that your purchase will help put literal food on the table for America's finest warriors. If you're still on the fence, it's probably because you've been eating too much soy, drying your emo tears with your bangs, and you've forgotten what real food tastes like. Primal Beef can help with that. Try Primal Beef out today by going to primalbeef.com. That's primalbeef.com. Use the promo code Kyle to get 25 bucks off your first order. Again, that's primalbeef.com, promo code Kyle to get $25 off your first order. Yeah, I appreciate that overview. And And guys, with a lot of stuff we're doing today, we're barely scratching the surface. That's why we have in the show notes where you can go buy your copy of The Unseen Battle. And so one of the things that you cover in the book that is of interest to a lot of people is And you kind of couch it within the realm not realm, but you couch it within kind of the the category of the two different families of God, but you also get into a discussion of the Nephilim or Nephilim, whatever your preferred pronunciation. Yeah. And there are a lot of different schools of thought about the Nephilim, and it's fun to talk about, and it's fun to to speculate. And then, you know, there's always been that question of like, okay, would it be correct to think that the Nephilim and their descendants died during the flood, or is it possible that part of Noah's family had Nephilim blood as part of their family, you know, pre-pre-flood, which means that there could be part of their bloodline still alive today? I don't think that's that that far of a stretch. I mean, but there's a lot of confusion. And it's kind of like one of those things where I was going to get to this a little bit later when we talk about Book of Enoch, but it's like there's so many things that are super duper clear and knowable in scripture, and we don't really care about those things. We don't really want to like, you know, plant our flag there. We want to go discover, like in some sort of Gnostic sense, we want the secret discovery. We We're drawn to the videos where there's the ominous music and the guy with the good sultry voice talking to us about the Nephilim and how this that and the other thing, but you know, I'm I'm getting getting too far off. Let's go back to Nephilim, the two different families of God and just kind of give us even just a basic overview of the different schools of thought as it pertains to the Nephilim. >> Yeah, so we're talking about Genesis chapter 6 uh verses 1 through 4 particularly. And what is fascinating to me is um you know, most vacation I grew up in the church. So like most vacation Bible schools, they love hitting up Noah's Ark, you know, like Noah's Ark uh is probably like a top five, maybe a top three vacation Bible school theme. Uh and yet I really have never heard anybody deal with uh the sons of God and the daughters of men and the Nephilim, which actually preclude, necessitate uh essentially why the flood uh takes place. I I I really appreciate kind of your summary there, where I would suggest um you know, there's uh a level but we can know, there's a level of educated speculation that that scholars and theologians uh would disagree on. Some of my closest friends and I disagree on this and we all have PhDs and are specialists in different areas. Um and yet there is a larger principle that is at play that really nobody is disagreeing with. And so I'd want us to be like um educated on the different thoughts and ideas. I'll give you the one that I'm convinced of. Uh you can disagree, that's totally fine. But I think that we all I don't think I know that we all should agree upon that the outcome of um selfish ambition, vain conceit, and a transgression of boundaries always results in rebellion and evil inside of the world. Always. Um and so what you have in Genesis 6 is the sons of God and the daughters of men. So a quick uh review of it. The um when it comes to kind of church history, which I think is kind of fascinating, um that uh church history from the earliest I mean, we can go as early as Philo, uh they actually held an angelic view of the sons of God. That the sons of God were angelic beings. And so you've got Philo, you've got Justin Martyr, you've got Origen, um you've got Tertullian, different church fathers that held to the view that the sons of God were angelic beings. Um, the daughters of men were women, you know, who were born to men. Sometime around, um, the time of a guy named Julius Africanus and Augustine, I'm a big Augustine fan, I love Augustine, City of God is a great book. Um, these two kind of, uh, were dealing with an issue in the church, um, particularly Augustine came out of a Manichaean tradition. The Manichaeans actually absolutely loved and adored the book of Enoch, which I actually think is probably some of the background for why Augustine opts out of any kind of Enochic background tradition for Genesis 6 and instead opts for a human rulers view of Genesis 6. So, these are the two kind of views. Um, technically there's a third, but that's subsumed underneath the human ruler view. So, you have either the angelic view of the sons of God or the human rulers view or the human view. The most popular human view for Genesis 6 is called the Sethite view, where the view is that, um, you have the righteous sons of Seth who, um, essentially, uh, go into an unholy, um, um, union with the unrighteous daughters of Cain, from Cain's line and lineage, right? And as a result of this unrighteous unholy union between a human and a human, uh, you have these Nephilim, which the Septuagint, the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, translates that Hebrew word Nephilim or, you know, Naphal comes from the Hebrew verb Naphal, which means to fall, um, or to, you know, be brought down in battle is essentially the background of that. Uh, they opt for Gigas, which is giants. So, the question is like, okay, you've got these giant figures. And we have to ask a we have to ask a coherence question. How do you get a human and a human that, um, you know, uh, cohabitate, they have a a union together, and they produce a giant. And then you have another couple, and this is I'm kind of teasing out why I don't have a human rulers view for this. So the Sethite view, you know, where do we find the Hebrew phrase sons of God synonymous with any individual that came from the line of Seth? Throughout the Hebrew Bible you're not going to find that. The sons of God are never referred to as the righteous line of Seth. Here's the the third issue. Where do we find and know that the daughters of man are come from the line of Cain? Once again, we don't find Second Temple literature or anywhere else in the Hebrew Bible that says that. So for me as a theologian kind of like looking at this, um there we're trying to do some theological gymnastics to try to figure out how to impose a human ruler view a human reading view into Genesis 6, right? And then the coherence of how do you get these Nephilim as a result of a human to human relationship? Um The the angelic view and and I have a general principle. I think most like people who teach biblical hermeneutics would say this, that we wanted to interpret the unclear passages of scripture based off of the clear what is clear in scripture. So where does this phrase sons of God, bene elohim, bene ha elohim, where does that show up elsewhere in the Bible with clarity? It shows up in Job chapter 1, Job chapter 2, and Job 38. And in each of those instances it's a divine council scene. The sons of God are angelic figures and there is universally no debate over those instances of it. And so for me I go, oh, where we find clarity, what would happen if we then impose that clear reading back into an obscure reading of Genesis 6? Well, then you have angelic figures who have an unholy union with human women that produce giants. That starts to make sense. You have an angelic kind of being with an a human that produces this hybrid kind of giant figure that is disastrous. We still have an issue, right? The angelic view still has an issue. How do you find angels having sex with human women? Right? Like what and then a lot of people will turn to Matthew and be like, well, you know, Jesus says we'll be like the angels who won't be given over to marriage. Notice what Jesus says and what Jesus doesn't say. Jesus says that we'll be like angels not given over to marriage. Jesus doesn't say that angels don't have sex or that they don't have the capability of sex. So, one, there's a little bit of silence of that where have to make an implication of what that means. But then secondarily, we know angelic figures take corporeal state throughout the Old Testament. Once again, Abraham and the angelic figures, they're eating. How do non-material beings eat? How do they walk? How do Think about Sodom and Gomorrah, right? You've got angelic beings that grab Lot, physi- physically grab him and pull him back in. So, that's there's corporeality, there's physicality. The other one that's really interesting in Sodom and Gomorrah is that the town can recognize the masculine physicality of these angelic beings so much so that they're trying to rape them, right? They're trying to have this this illicit evil sexual act, which you would be like, well, you would have to be able to make out some kind of masculinity of that to even get to that conclusion of that decision. So, for all of those reasons, I opt for an angelic reading because it is historically concurrent. You've got Philo, Josephus. Philo is a contemporary of Jesus who held to this view. And then also it helps make sense of the rest of the Bible, honestly. It helps make sense of the Anakim, the Rephaim, these giant kings. It makes sense of David and Goliath. Goliath is from the city of Gath. Gath is a giant clan. After Goliath is dead, they still got to deal with his brothers, you know, that are giants that are that are descendants of the Nephilim. It makes sense of Joshua's conquest narrative. A lot of people have a lot of issues with the issue of the war that's taking place. Why is Joshua wiping out entire cities? Like this harem thing, like what is going on? Well, actually, um if you and I'm not saying this isn't totality, but a large part of Joshua's conquest, he is strategic he's a strategic military commander. He is looking at tactical hotspots of where evil is rising and corrupting everything. And guess where those hotspots are? Giant plans of the Nephilim. And because of that unholiness, he is wiping out places that have the potential to create and spread even more evil. So, it's like a tactical airstrike today. That's essentially what's uh a lot of what's happening with Joshua and the conquest. And so, because of that kind of clarity that unravels throughout the rest of the Bible, uh I opt for a human ruler's view. And then there's some second temple literature we can get into the book of Enoch if you want to. Um that the best dissertation that turned into a a book is by a guy named Archie Wright, and it's called The Origins of Evil Spirits in Second Temple Literature. Really good dude. Um has written really excellent scholarship on it. Where when Jesus comes in the Gospels, and he deals with demonic entities, uh the Greek terms that are used for these demons are unclean spirits. Well, how do you get an unclean spirit? An unclean mixture of an angelic being, a spiritual being, and a human being together is a mixture that never was supposed to be. So, the tradition is that these Nephilim, these giants, because they were hybrid, um their souls have no place to go. Uh they're not human, but they're not angelic, rightfully angelic. And so, what what happens when their physical bodies are slain on the battlefield? Their spirits are trapped on Earth. And because they're trapped on Earth, but they remember how to be embodied, this is where they're constantly trying to possess and embody um humanity. And it creates chaos, which also helps us make sense of Luke chapter 4 when you have uh a demon encounter with Jesus and the demon goes we use the plural, we know who you are, right? You're the holy one of Israel. Like what are you doing here? You know, it's like they have been anticipating the time when all this is going to be done and and then Jesus later on in Luke he says, you know, he's being um bated by the Pharisees and Sadducees. It's like, you're you're the devil and Jesus is like, actually, if by the like a house divided can't stand first of all and second of all, if by the hand of God I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God is upon you. Well, guess what all the gospels with Jesus' incarnation is all about? The in-breaking of the kingdom of God. So, Jesus by performing demon exorcisms in the gospels is actually verifying that he is who he said he was, he's the son of God, he's God himself and secondarily that now the kingdom of God is not just on the way, the kingdom of God is literally breaking into earth because we're finally dealing with these demons that have been causing havoc in the world. >> Well, even there's a lot there and even going back to what you were saying about David killing Goliath and then having to deal with his brothers. We get hints other places in scripture. It's it's subtle, but how many stones did David have with him when he went to face Goliath? He had five. People are like, oh well, I guess he needed, you know, to make sure he had enough ammo just in case the first one didn't work. It's like, no bro, there were four other brothers. Goliath had four brothers and in that day and age, if your brother was killed or a family member was killed, it was expected >> it was expected for you to show up. And so David basically was like, I got one for each of you. That was his Doc Holiday moment, right? Yeah, exactly. But what just just briefly because, you know, we're we're running out of time and I've got a bunch more questions. Would you say in outworking of your view, which I think you elucidated very nicely, are there descendants of the Nephilim on earth now? >> So, this is where I will depart from a lot of the, you know, like uh what do you call them? Kind of a lot of fanaticism. I think that can come around this idea. Um I I don't see biblical uh proof. If there's like some kind of genetic testing that was able to reverse engineer it and show it for us today, then I'd be open to the idea, but I think the whole point of what Jesus is doing in the Gospels is to um deal with all of these issues. Um and so uh today, like I find it fascinating in the Great Commission, Jesus doesn't say, "And go and deal with the rest of the Nephilim." He doesn't say, "Go go and you know, he says, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, starting from Judea and Samaria to the ends of the Earth." And so, if that was a part of like what we would have had to deal with because it was a significant part of what of what um Joshua is dealing with in the Old Testament, what Jesus is dealing with in the New Testament, then you'd expect that there we would have some evidence of that being given to us as an imperative command that we ought to be on the lookout for. But, we're not. What we're to be on the lookout for is malevolent evil spiritual beings. Um Paul's language is powers, principalities, and authorities. And again, our act of spiritual warfare, once again, I depart from some folks in this camp or in this area that are a little bit more popular in this. Um I like to separate normative from non-normative. So, what is the normative experience and expectation for all believers? The normative expectation is advance the Gospel. The good news of the Gospel of King Jesus. And guess what? When you advance you're dealing with dark places. When you're dealing with dark places, you'll expose demonic situations and entities. You're going to have to right but but notice the order matters. The order is the Gospel. The Gospel deals with darkness. The darkness then is exposed by these demonic entities. Sometimes people get so caught up they're like, "Well, we're demon hunters now. Like we got to go find demons everywhere." I think it's a it's a that's uh one not normative and secondarily, I think that you got to be real careful with with with that, you know? Um we're given the armor of God in Ephesians 6 in order to stand against the onslaught of the enemy. We're not called anywhere in scripture to go and encounter and to deal with these dark powers. We're actually called Ephesians chapter 3 that through the manifold wisdom of God, the Greek word manifold is poly poikilos. It's the exact same word that's used of a beautiful array of flowers. The exact word that's used in the Hebrew Bible in the new in Greek of Joseph's coat of many colors. It's really a indication of the multi-ethnic, multi-generational socioeconomically diverse, universal like household of God. So, it's through the the winsome witness of the church that the dark powers are put on notice. So, what do we do? We advance the gospel. The church expands and grows. And along the way, is there need for at times a kind of spiritual warfare that would necessitate demon exorcism, you know, and those kinds of things? Absolutely. But, I just want to separate normative from non-normative. >> Well, I think you guys, again, we're barely scratching the surface, but you do pose a question towards the end of the Unseen Battle where it's basically how does the gospel of Jesus Christ provide an answer to the three rebellions? So, part of the subtitle of the book is the three rebellions. The three rebellions as you've kind of, you know, weaved in and out of. The first one is Genesis 3, that's the fall. The second one is Genesis 6, you know, what led to the flood. And then Genesis 11, the Tower of Babel. And you go into a ton of detail in the book on those things, but I think you just gave us an answer as to, you know, how the the gospel of Jesus really puts a fine point and a period on that. But, I guess we'll have to make this last question of the day cuz we're running out of time. You know, I was I guess surprised a little bit. You you make reference to the Book of Enoch throughout this book. >> Yeah. >> But, there was no discussion about why it wasn't part of uh the biblical canon, you know, where it came from, how to read it. People think there's a book of Enoch, but I think there's actually three if my memory uh serves me correctly. So, it's like >> of Enoch is split into three groups, three three individual writings. >> so, it's like which one are we talking about? But then, you know, but then that's one of those things to where like even Joe Rogan, right? So, he you know, he has this encounter with West Huff who in an instant became the most famous Christian apologist in the history of planet Earth. And then now you've got him talking about how he's going to church, he's reading the Bible, but what he's really into is the Book of Enoch. What he's really into again, getting into all the unknowable parts and things like that. So, I guess why did you refer? Cuz it seemed like you were referring to the Book of Enoch as if it were canon, even though it's not. And so, I think that was going to catch a lot of my readers as like, "Wait, hold up. Wait a minute. Like this isn't in the canon. I don't even know if we should be reading this." So, feel free to walk through that. >> So, there there is actually a section in The Unseen Battle and it's called should we read Second Temple literature? Should we read, you know? So, there's a sidebar that's in there that I try to tackle this and maybe I didn't do it well enough. But basically, the Book of Enoch, you're absolutely right. It's split up into three books. It's part of Second Temple literature and the second two books are incredibly unreliable. The second two books are incredibly unreliable. The first book, The Book of the Watchers, has more historical reliability and contextual reliability and intertextual reliability because the New Testament authors themselves actually quote the first book of Enoch. Jude and also Second Peter are both quoting the Enochic tradition. So, the reason why I reference Enoch and how I view Enoch, I do not view Enoch as canon. I agree with the church fathers' decision to not include it in canon. There were some church fathers who opted for it to be included in the canon, but in the end it didn't it didn't make it in and I think that's that was a wise decision based off of author authorship, based off of some exegetical textual agreements and some other things. But I don't think that just because a book is not canon that a book can't be helpful or useful, right? Um like for today, Kyle, if I asked you, "Who's the goat, MJ or LeBron?" What would you say? >> Of course it's MJ. I'm glad you brought it up in the book. If you fight for the other reason, you need to repent. >> You need to repent and you we might need to do an exorcism on you, honestly, that might be true. Um but the thing is I said and who am I talking about? MJ is who? >> Michael Jordan. >> Yep. And when I say goat, what do I mean? >> Greatest of all time. >> Okay. So, in 500 years from now, somebody's going to come across that clip, might be disconnected from all of this and be like, "What the heck are these dudes saying?" Right? And so, we have the benefit of contextualization that we live in the moment that I don't feel the need to be able to Now, if I said who's the goat who's the goat, MJ or Prince, right? Or some other musician, you might think Michael Jackson. Right, exactly. So, context determines. So, what what does the Book of Enoch do? The Book of Enoch is a contextual document that is um doing three things. It is retrieving, it's preserving, and it's transmitting a oral tradition that was already present in the time of the people of the writing of the New Testament. And so, what are they retrieving? They're retrieving what's happening in Genesis 6. There's a reason why those first four verses are tiny. It's because there was another tradition. Genesis 3, 6, and 11 are what I argue are polemics arguments against the ancient Near Eastern create creation myths of the time. The Enuma Elish is one of the most significant ones. Um and so, Genesis 6 is actually detail by detail saying, "Your whole Apkallu story that you have, that's fact and fiction. That's that's that's that's that's factual fiction, right? Like it's it's horrible. Um it took us a moment of truth, but inverted the entire thing. So, let's give you actually what took place." Um and so, that's the retrieval. The preservation is to not preserve that story in a written format, and And the transmission is we have it available for us today. So, I would read the Book of Enoch the Book of the Watchers particularly that first book as a helpful background or contextual insight into the mind of sec- second temple readers that is so helpful for us. It's like The Last Dance today basketball back to basketball. The Last Dance today is so helpful for us because my kids they did not grow up watching what I watched. I watched Jordan win the three-peat. I watched him play baseball horrific. I watched him come back and repeat the three-peat. You know what I'm saying? And so my boys when they watch The Last Dance they're like, "Wait a minute. Like this dude like walked on air." We're like, "Come on, bro. That's why they called him Air Jordan, you know?" And so it's a it's a insight into what was already in the mind of the people who lived at that time. We should not I want to be so clear. We should not elevate it to the canon of scripture. And honestly, if you read it and you start to get enticed away into like these like you know cosmic whatever obsessive tendencies like Lewis talks about, you should probably repent and stop reading it, you know? Like there is a place of maturity that we need to personally assess. But if you have it accessible to you, you can read it with the wisdom in the way it should be read with intentionality, then I think it's a helpful background information to what's happening in the biblical text. >> Well, I'll go ahead and throw myself before the court the men plead for the mercy of the court because I've had this habit since I was a little kid cuz I've always struggled with reading. It's always hard for me to like stay focused especially when things are dense which The Unseen Battle is dense. So, all the sidebars I just skipped them because I was like, "If I read that, I'm not going to know where I was and then I'm going to have to back up four more pages and it's already is slowing me down." So, thank you for elucidating that for the audience who might not read it. But for those of you that read it, don't be like me. Don't be like the guy that just skips those sections cuz when I saw the gray bars, I was like, "That's not for me. That's for somebody else with a higher octane brain power that's going on." But Joe, there's there's a whole lot more that we could talk about, but we have unfortunately run out of time. I really appreciate you giving your full-throated explanations on all these different topics, but that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? >> No, man. The last thing I would just say, I would want people to leave this conversation with two things, posture and perspective. Like people can come in anxious and and worried. I would say our posture with this is a posture of humble confidence. We walk into this not because of what we can do, but because of what Jesus Christ has already done. And then it's perspective. We get a unique perspective. We view all of this from the context and the perspective of an empty grave, you know? And so because of that again reinforces that posture, that humble confidence. And then the last thing is just this. Y'all please don't miss Jesus. Like if you miss Jesus, you will miss everything. And so the point of this book is not to get you captivated by spiritual things that are disconnected from Jesus. The point of the book is to have you captivated by the cosmic king of heaven and earth, King Jesus. >> The gospel is the answer to all the questions you pose in the book. Joel, I really appreciate your time. >> Thanks, man. >> There you go, guys. Hope you enjoyed my time with Joel, but before I let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost. At mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience. So I've got some links for you today, a link to Joel's website where you can check out everything he's doing and a link to two of his books, The Unseen Battle and The Hidden Peace. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. That's i n f o @undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www. undaunted.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album on Facedown Records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah.