JOBY MARTIN | If the Tomb is Empty (Ep. 307)

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0:58 This is Undaunted Life of Man's Podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson.

1:21 Let's get into it. I got a special guest on the podcast. His name is Joby Martin.

1:25 So he is the founder and lead pastor of the Church of 1122 in Jacksonville, Florida.

1:30 He's also a speaker and an author and the host of The Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin podcast.

1:35 And he's also the author of a brand new book that I've got right here in front of me called If the

1:38 Tomb is Empty, Why the Resurrection Means Anything Is Possible. So guys, I get pitched a

1:44 lot of books and I get pitched a lot of people to come on the show. And so I don't always get

1:48 pitched pastors. And so that was kind of interesting. And so I never really heard of this guy's

1:51 ministry. And so it's like, yeah, sure, it's in the book over and I'll start reading it.

1:54 Not only is it one of the better books that I've read this year, okay, it was very encouraging.

1:59 And we get it, we get a lot into the book really in the first half of this podcast.

2:02 But this is not only one of the best interviews I felt like we've done this year and we've had a

2:07 banger this year. I mean, my gosh, some of the ones we've even got coming up are ridiculous.

2:10 This is one of my favorite interviews ever. And for a lot of reasons, not only his answers on

2:15 certain things that you know, the access to his brain that he gave us when he answered,

2:18 you know, certain things in certain ways that the different subject matters.

2:21 But we talked about so many important things and he kept bringing things back to the Bible.

2:25 And it was encouraging to me as a guy that's trying to lead other men through this ministry

2:28 and through this podcast to see faithful men like that, that you can follow him as he follows Christ.

2:33 And you know, I kind of similarly want to do that with you guys. But in this interview,

2:37 we really get a lot into the book. We get into, you know, kind of why he set it up the way that he

2:40 did, why we focus on the resurrection so much. I think he kind of took a shot at Andy Stanley

2:46 in his book. And so some of you guys know exactly what we're going to be talking about.

2:48 We're going to be talking about the whole unhitch thing that came up and all that drama from a few

2:52 years ago. We're going to be talking about how people think their lives should be easier when

2:56 they're Christians. You know, we're going to talk about really the scariest part of the Bible.

3:00 You know, those that say Lord, Lord, may not enter the kingdom of heaven. I mean,

3:04 we're going to get into all that. We're going to get into how, you know,

3:06 modern culture is fighting against truth. But then we're going to get into some other

3:09 things that are outside the book, you know, why pastors don't, you know, go after hard subjects

3:13 like abortion and transgenderism. Why do they avoid those topics from the pulpit talking about

3:18 manhood in the church? He gave the best answer I've ever heard in my life of doing this about

3:24 man-friendly churches and how we should try and disciple men. We're going to talk about the fall

3:27 of prominent pastors like Brian Houston and Ravi Zacharias and Bill Hybels and Carl Linson,

3:31 all those guys. We're going to talk about worship music and all the issues with that. We're going

3:35 to talk about multi-side and online church and how a lot of these pastors have a CEO and a board of

3:39 direct, their CEOs and board of directors and they're not actual pastors. Guys, we talked about

3:43 everything, right? We only had about an hour together, but we just absolutely blew through

3:48 all these different subject matters. It really sets us up down the road to talk about any,

3:51 you know, a whole bunch more things. So guys, I really, really enjoyed my time with pastor

3:55 Joby Martin. I hope you do as well. But without further ado, let's get into it.

3:59 Joby Martin, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.

4:02 Man, it's my pleasure to be here.

4:04 So you have a kind of interesting story about how you found yourself in vocational ministry,

4:08 which I feel like everyone that's in vocational ministry, like being a professional Christian

4:12 has an interesting story of how they got there, but also how you started your church

4:17 down there in Jacksonville, Florida. The church of 1122 is interesting as well. So

4:21 give us the SparkNotes version as a way of introduction for how you got into vocational

4:25 ministry and how that ended up in 2012 with you launching the church of 1122.

4:29 Yeah, man. Well, I grew up in the south, but I did not grow up at church, just maybe like Christmas

4:35 and thanks. I mean, Christmas and Easter, maybe. And found myself in a little trouble and my football

4:41 coach worked out a deal with the powers that be that I would cut grass at this little denominational

4:46 Baptist retreat center. And so one night there, the counselors reenacted the crucifixion of Christ.

4:54 And even though I would have said I was a Christian, I had never surrendered my life to Christ. And

4:59 that's the night that I believe when Christ died on the CrossFit County for me, several years later,

5:04 I find myself on staff there cutting grass and stuff like that. And one night during the worship

5:11 experience when our guy was up there singing, I am a sea. You remember that one? Yeah, of course.

5:15 And coach Lee, my football coach, the random place leans over to me and said, boy, when the

5:20 singing's done, you're going preach. And I was like, coach, I'm not very comfortable speaking in front

5:25 of people. And he said, boy, did you say comfortable? You think Paul and Silas were comfortable in the

5:30 lion's den boy or in prison? Boy, do you think Daniel was comfortable in the lion's den boy?

5:34 Do you think Jesus Christ was comfortable on the cross? And I was like, no, I don't think you

5:37 was. And I said, coach, what do I talk about? He said, boy, that's easy. You talk about Jesus,

5:41 and you talk about 30 minutes. And so I did. And that's pretty much what I've been doing ever

5:46 since. And so I did student ministry for about 15 years and then found myself here in Jacksonville,

5:51 Florida, just living life, man, having a great time, passion students, mind them own business.

5:58 And then we started a service at the church that I was on staff at. And it started at 11 22 a.m.

6:05 on Sunday mornings. That's why we named it that I'm not very creative, but at least people would

6:09 know when to come. And then you fast forward about a year later and that service had grown to maybe

6:15 five or six services and outgrown the church. And so my pastor said, why don't you plant a

6:20 church? And so in September of 2012, we planted the church of 11 22 right here in Jacksonville.

6:27 That's amazing. And I know y'all have seen a lot of explosive growth. And you really do get into

6:31 that. And we're going to spend most of our time today talking about your new book. It's right here

6:33 in front of me. If you're not watching on YouTube, what's wrong with you? But it's if the tomb is

6:37 empty, why the resurrection means anything is possible. So this is a book that you co-wrote

6:41 with Charles Martin. So if you would, I always like to hear from the author and hear them describe

6:46 their own book and their own words. So, you know, take us through what you want readers to get

6:50 out of this book. But also this is a co-written book. So take us through that process. Was that

6:54 cool? Were you and Charles still friends after? And even how you set up the chapters was interesting.

6:58 Yeah, kind of a different mountain for each chapter you got into. So take that wherever you

7:02 want to go. Yeah, man. Like you said, if you planted the church, it grew real fast. All the

7:07 people that are in that kind of evangelical world started hounding me to write a book.

7:11 And I told everybody as soon as I have an original thought, I'll jot it down, I promise. But

7:16 really what it came down to is you only get your first one once. And so I didn't want to do it too

7:23 early. I met Charles. Charles is a New York time best-selling author. He's written 20-something books,

7:29 most of them are novels. He's a deacon at my church. And all of the content is from me. And then he

7:37 just helped me get it from stage to page because I am primarily a preacher. And so we took some

7:42 content that I'd already been working on. And that was the guts of the book. And really years ago,

7:48 I think it was maybe eight years ago, he and I were in Israel together. And every time the bus

7:54 pulled up to some new spot, it seemed like so many of them were mountains. And it just led me on this

7:59 study in the scriptures to just see the kind of things God did on these mountains that he created.

8:04 And it seems to me that, well, one, our life is just a series of mountaintops and valleys,

8:09 and you're either heading into one or heading out of one. And that God often demonstrates

8:14 his glory up on the mountain and his mercy and grace down in the valley. And so I just tracked

8:19 really the gospel through seven different mountains in the scriptures, starting with Mount Mariah,

8:24 and then heading all the way to Mount Calvary, which is the same mountain, which very few

8:28 church folk even understand. And at all points of the reality that on Calvary, Calvary held a tomb

8:35 at the tomb, couldn't hold a body. And so it all just points to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

8:40 I got to say, it was very interested in how it was set up, because I didn't know that either,

8:44 that those two mountains were the same mountain. And so it's like, that for me, I was like, wait a

8:48 minute. That's such a big idea to talk through. Why isn't this just as well known as the two of

8:53 every animal on a big old boat back in the day? Like that should be really, really well known.

8:57 But I want to get into a lot of quotes from this book and kind of tee you up to talk a little bit

9:00 more about it. But right from the prologue, you're already spitting fire. So I want to read this quote

9:04 to you. The answer tells a lot about you and what you believe. So let me press you. This is a gut

9:09 check. Do you live every day of your life as if the tomb is empty? Or as though Jesus is still

9:15 hanging on that cross? Think before you answer. Now you did invite us throughout the writing of

9:20 this book to pause a little bit. And maybe that was kind of some of the poetic license that Charles

9:24 took with some of the content as well. But why is that question specifically so important?

9:29 Because I know there are a lot of people, maybe more so like in the Catholic face, they think

9:32 more about the crucifixion. You see that a lot more in kind of their artistic expression of Christ

9:37 and Calvary and all those different things. But why is that specific gut check question so

9:40 important from the very beginning? God, I think most church folks believe in half the gospel.

9:46 If your average person is going to be at Easter this weekend, if I were to say,

9:51 art, if you were dead, standing before Jesus, and he says, why should I let you in my heaven?

9:55 Most people would say, because I believe you died on the cross to forgive me of my sins,

10:00 which is true. But that's not the end of the story. The end is that he went through death and was

10:06 resurrected from the grave. And if you stop at the cross and you only believe that Jesus wiped

10:12 your slate clean, then implicitly that means then you better get to work to fill your slate in

10:18 right this time. You see, we don't need a second chance. If you had a second chance at life,

10:22 you would just screw up again. What we need is a brand new life. It would be like if we went,

10:28 if we were in debt over our heads and we went to a banker and said, hey, man, there's no way in

10:33 my lifetime I can pay this back. I don't know what to do. And he said, well, don't worry about it.

10:37 I'm gracious. I'm going to forgive you of your debt. Well, it would be gracious and you would be

10:42 grateful. But when you left the bank, your condition is you would be broke and you would have to get

10:48 to work. That is not the gospel. No, the gospel is in the bank analogy that the banker said,

10:55 not only am I going to forgive you of my debt, but I'm going to adopt you as my very own and

11:00 give you access to everything that I have. And so the full gospel is not Jesus not only died for

11:06 our sins, but when he resurrected from the grave that we are imputed with his righteousness.

11:11 The Bible says this is love, not that we love God, but God loved us and send his son as the

11:15 propitiation for our sin. That word propitiation means a payment that satisfies the law of God,

11:20 the justice of God, the wrath of God, which means this, bro, if you were in Christ, if Christ is the

11:26 payment that satisfies, God cannot be dissatisfied in you. And a lot of us live as if God is still

11:33 pretty frustrated with us because we don't believe the full gospel. And if the tomb is empty,

11:38 then we, like Christ, who is the prototoco or the prototype, the firstborn from among the dead,

11:44 that we should be walking in that same kind of power in life that he did.

11:48 I think that's going to really dovetail nicely with some stuff we're going to get into later,

11:51 but I do want to go ahead and kind of go chapter by chapter with some big stuff from each. So

11:55 in chapter one, we're talking about Mount Mariah here. So there's a couple of quotes I want to read

11:59 because I think this is a reflection of the sickness that we have within Christendom right now. So the

12:03 first quote is this, but this isn't how this goes. I just got saved. Life's supposed to be better.

12:08 I mean, I met Jesus. Isn't everything going to be better now? And then a little bit later in

12:12 chapter when you say this, in our culture today, there is a version of church that claims to be

12:16 Christianity when it's not flipped through the channels and you can find somebody selling a gospel

12:20 that says, if you love God, then he owes you health, wealth, and happiness. It's called the

12:24 prosperity gospel. And the problem with it historically is what we call the Bible. And then a little

12:30 bit later, you say his focus is on his glory. I got to say, I did chuckle out loud. So, you know,

12:34 sitting in my office by myself, whenever he said the problem with that is the Bible. But this is a

12:38 big thing, a big problem that I have, Joby is a lot of people think God is about them. Like God's

12:44 about me. No, no, he's for you, but he's not about you. God is about himself. God is about his own

12:48 glory. But also, it's this internal dialogue that we have with ourselves and this internal looking

12:54 like, if God loves me, everything should just be squared away. And it's like, are you reading the

12:58 New Testament? Like, if you get what you deserve, you're crucified upside down. Like, think about the

13:02 guys that were closest to Jesus. They didn't leave the, leave these nice, cushy lives until they

13:07 finally died quietly in their sleep. Why is that such a problem for modern Christians?

13:11 Because we worship at the author of our own comfort, and we ask God to come and join us in our own

13:17 glory instead of surrendering to him and understand that, look, what you said is absolutely right.

13:24 God is for you. Anybody that dies for you is for you. He demonstrated his love for us in this while

13:31 we were yet still sinners. Christ died for us. It just ain't all about you, man. It's all about

13:36 him. And as plain as the text can say in Genesis, after Abraham has received his promised son,

13:44 and Isaac is probably 16, 17, 18 years old, something like that. Abraham's probably thinking,

13:50 well, man, I've been through the tough stuff. And the Bible just says, and God tested Abraham.

13:56 God would love us enough to discomfort and discombobulate our entire life to strip everything

14:03 away from us that is idolatrous to us so that we would know that he is the one and the only one

14:09 that can satisfy. I think that's a great three point of your entire book. And there's a lot

14:13 of gut checks in your book. It sounds like that's who you are as a person, which I appreciate because

14:17 I'm like the gut check guy. I'm always calling people to the carpet. So let's go and get into

14:21 chapter two where we're talking about Mount Sinai. So let me read this quote here. You and I cannot

14:25 rightfully, sorry, rightly and fully know Jesus if we don't rightly and fully know the backdrop of

14:31 the Old Testament, out of which Jesus steps, hence the law. So, you know, earlier on in the book,

14:37 you talk about Paul and his first letter to the church in Corinth and you quoted 1 Corinthians 15,

14:42 14, if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

14:47 Now, this all kind of goes back. And the first thing I thought of and I wrote it in the margins was

14:51 the unhitch controversy that surrounded Andy Stanley. So back in 2018, you know, he's doing

14:57 the series called aftermath and in part three called not difficult. He talked about how we should

15:01 unhitch the New Testament from the Old Testament. What he was meaning is, is the resurrection is a

15:06 center point for a Christian's faith, not the Old Testament. We can get to Noah. We can get to

15:11 all these other things. It made sense, but he was destroyed for that in a lot of ways rightfully so.

15:16 But then later on in chapter two, you say this little quote and it just kind of stuck out to me.

15:20 It said, may we never unhitch, unhitch from the Old Testament? So, Joby, is that shots fired?

15:27 Were you taking a little shot at Andy Stanley there? Because either it's just the biggest

15:32 coincidence in the world that you used the word unhitch or you have something to say about it. So,

15:36 give it to me. First of all, I would say I've met Andy several times. It's not like we're good buddies

15:43 or anything. I have mad respect for the guy. His church has been unbelievably gracious to our

15:49 church because we got big real fast and had to figure out how to do all the things at North Point

15:54 has been awesome to us. Okay. And if I were really, if we were buddies and I could call him on the

16:02 phone, I'd say, Hey, man, you want to re explain that unhitch thing because I don't think you mean

16:06 what you think you mean or you that yeah, it didn't come off the way you meant it to. No, man. I mean,

16:11 for sure, the centerpiece of our fate is not the temple. It is the empty tomb. I mean, it's what

16:15 the whole book is. We don't have faith in faith and we don't have faith in our religious practices

16:20 somehow make us clean. That's not how it works. All right. It's the resurrected Christ and His

16:24 imputed righteousness to us that make us clean. However, you cannot know the character and nature

16:31 of God if you put away the covenant with the Hebrew people because so much of the character

16:37 and nature of God is revealed in that specifically the commandments. I mean, the goal is not be good.

16:44 The goal is be holy for I am holy. All right, Lord, what does that look like? And goes, well,

16:48 here's here's 10 to start with. And then ultimately, what we do when we when we hold up the the map

16:56 and the mirror of the 10 commandments is we realize we got a big problem, bro, because we are not

17:01 holy. This is not just God that is kind of desires a relationship with you out of nowhere.

17:06 This is a holy and perfect God. And we need someone to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

17:13 And I don't think you could rightly understand like Romans chapter three, for by works of the law,

17:17 no one will be justified in his own works. If you don't understand the entire Old Testament

17:23 and what you're being justified from, so may we not un-hitch. I don't know if it's a shot, but it's

17:30 I would like to be clear that we shall not un-hitch that the New Testament is the fulfillment of

17:36 everything pointed to in the old that Jesus is the fulfillment of every promise, every prophecy,

17:41 and every precept of the old covenant. Yeah, and he actually did a debate show against

17:47 Jeff Durbin a couple of months after that. And Jeff Durbin kind of destroyed him. It was an

17:52 embarrassing performance for Andy because for me, like this is how I would have explained it and

17:56 then I'll see if this makes sense to you. I've talked to people that are somewhere between atheists

18:00 and agnostic and I use the resurrection as the starting point, not the beginning and the end,

18:06 but the starting point to say like, look, I know Jonah and the whale doesn't make sense.

18:10 I know that the six days or seven literal days of creation and six and then resting on something.

18:15 I know that doesn't really make sense in our modern parlance. Let's start with if this guy

18:19 was raised from the dead because if he was, we need to explore the rest of it. If he wasn't,

18:24 don't worry about it. Go figure something out, make up your own religion. I feel like that would have

18:28 been a better place to start. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I and the way I've heard Andy

18:34 describe it before sounded more like what you just said. Right. But in that one particular

18:38 series, yeah, he just kind of hunkered down on the old hun itch thing. And I agree that we don't,

18:44 it's not temple worship anymore, that the spirit of God lives in us, that the church is more of a

18:50 movement than a building. I mean, I'm with all that. But but I from cover to cover, it is God's

18:57 inspired infallible word. And every single bit of it is vitally important to the life of the believer.

19:04 Yeah, it's if anything, it's a lesson to be incredibly, incredibly precise in the language that we

19:08 use. And if we aren't as precise to make sure that we clean that up pretty soon thereafter.

19:13 But let's move into chapter three, where you're talking about Mount Carmel. Let me read this quote

19:16 here. Today, we live in a world that says, if you believe in something intently and intensely,

19:22 that's all that matters. It's not true. No matter how hard you believe in something,

19:26 that does not make it true. There is no your truth. The quickest way to neuter the word truth of its

19:32 meaning is to add, to add in front of it, the or to add my in front of it. Sorry, I messed up

19:37 your quote there to add my in front of the word truth. There's just truth. So I got some breaking

19:43 news for you, Pastor. There is no such thing as truth anymore. I don't know if you knew this, but

19:48 if there is only your truth in my truth, it's not lived experience. It's actual truth. We can't

19:54 know anything because we all look at things from different lenses. Haven't you gotten the news?

19:58 Don't you read the paper? Yeah, but it's not true because even even, I mean, I know you're being

20:02 facetious, but the majority culture that has said there is no truth, they sure do feel like what's

20:10 happening in Ukraine is bad or the fact that Will Smith smack Chris Rock. You're not supposed

20:15 to do that. So when it is convenient for them, there is truth. And then when it is not, then they

20:22 cast it aside. Listen, man, they're for sure is your experience. And they're for sure is your

20:27 opinion. And they're for sure is the way something that happened to you impacted you. And it may impact

20:33 you different than it impacts me. No problem on all of that. That's just not what truth is.

20:38 I think the thing that's important for all of us to understand and to note as well is the big

20:43 difference between opinion and truth. And the thing about it is, is people will talk about their

20:47 opinions as if they're true because they're so fervent about it. In the debate, it's like,

20:51 okay, you think LeBron James is the best basketball player? I think Michael Jordan is neither one of

20:55 us is right in the sense of the word right because it's just in the eye, the beholder, but what's

21:00 that Michael Jordan is the best. Obviously true. Obviously, like we're on the same page there.

21:04 But at the same time, what's not up for debate is that both of those men have played in the

21:08 National Basketball Association in the United States of America. That's either true or it's not.

21:14 Now we need to move on to chapter four. This is my favorite chapter of the entire book. You're

21:17 talking about the amount of the attitudes. There are a couple of sections that I think are incredibly

21:21 important. And by all means, we might end up spending the rest of our time just about this.

21:25 But you talk about meekness. Okay, and I'll read this quote here and try not to mess up

21:29 anymore your quotes. Our problem is that we don't understand what the word means. It rhymes with

21:33 weak and it's usually used in the phrase meek and mild. So we don't understand it. But the word

21:38 meek in the Greek means a bit bridled horse. It doesn't mean weak at all. It means guided strength.

21:45 A big powerful horse is not weak. He's just handed over the reins to his master. The horse yielded

21:51 his will to the will of one who can direct his energies for his purposes. Now, I just got to say,

21:57 I don't find too many people that do this. But I think you said it better than Jordan Peterson

22:01 said it. Okay. So Jordan Peterson, again, he's not a pastor, but he talks about meekness a lot.

22:06 He is the man, but the way he's described it is just like that. But I think you described it

22:10 beautifully right there. So talk a little bit about meekness because one of the things here

22:15 is we talk about the lion and Judah constantly. That's why I got a lion over my shoulder

22:18 is because we present Jesus as this meek, mild, dirty, blond, haired, Danish guy with very soft,

22:24 white features, instead of this like rough Middle Eastern Jew that performed violence on people to

22:30 clear the temple. And we don't get this idea of him as being meek in the sense of the way you've

22:35 described it. We get meek in terms of like, Oh, Jesus would never say anything bad. And it's just

22:40 like, are you reading the scripture? Are you getting the personality of Jesus? So talk to me a little

22:44 bit about the meekness of Christ and just meekness in general. Well, first and foremost, I think that

22:48 the Beatitudes are some of the most misunderstood scriptures, maybe in all the Bible, because it's

22:53 often presented as eight circumstantial blessings. But tell me how that's the case. Because with all

22:59 the pure and hard people, please raise their hand. Who is that? I think what it is, it's the preamble

23:05 to what we know as the Sermon on the Mount, which is the gospel infected life. But if you read the

23:10 Sermon on the Mount and think, well, of course, I can pull this off. Well, you are by definition

23:14 self righteous. I think what Jesus is doing in the Beatitudes is giving us an invitation to surrender

23:21 our life to his lordship. He is presenting the gospel. Blessed are you when you are poor in spirit,

23:26 you realize you're a sinner. Blessed are you when more when you mourn when God begins to awaken your

23:31 heart so that you are mourning the sin in your life, which leads to, I think the meek blessing is the

23:37 moment of salvation. Blessed are you when you hand over the range of your life to him. And then the

23:42 rest of the Beatitudes are what the gospel infected life looks like, which leads to all of the Sermon

23:48 on the Mount, that the reason that we try to live that way is not to achieve God's favor, but because

23:55 through Christ, we already have his favor and we fight from victory, not for victory. And so,

24:00 Jesus is the ultimate example of what bridal strength is. I mean, think about his conversation

24:07 with Pilate. He's like, Oh, you are king. He goes, that's what you say. And then Jesus is like,

24:13 bro, I could stop this right now. You're not taking anything from me. Angel armies could be here

24:18 before you breathe your next breath, bro. And you were just a greasy spot here on this throne.

24:23 You understand? I mean, anybody that thinks Jesus is kind of the Jesus portrayed in the

24:29 children's book. They have not read the New Testament. He says things like, Hey, man, you got a lust

24:34 problem. How about gouge your eye out and cut your hand off? That's pretty intense. He looks at

24:40 religious people and says, man, you were nothing but a shell of a human. You are a whitewashed tomb.

24:47 You are a, you're crooked as a snake. I mean, bro, that's the equivalent of just like, you know,

24:52 cussing somebody out. He was like us words, but you don't know what I mean.

24:56 No, I, in our modern parlance and our modern way of thinking of things, just think about what

25:00 you would have to say in 2020 or 2022, forget what year it is. What would you have to say now

25:05 to make someone want to kill you? Because Jesus did that all the time. He said things that made

25:09 people so mad. They wanted to kill him. And I think they're an important book that kind of

25:13 helped open this up for me is beautiful outlaw by John Eldridge. Because the entire book is about

25:17 the personality of Jesus, because I was just as guilty as anybody else of reading through the

25:21 New Testament as if Jesus was this robot that said these really cool things back in the day,

25:26 where it was just like, no, I'm sure he was sarcastic. He was biting. He was playful.

25:30 Dude, he told the religious leaders in John chapter eight that they're, they say, they said,

25:35 we've never been captive. We are the sons of Abraham. And he says, your father is the devil.

25:40 I mean, bro, that, I mean, these are the, these are the religious leaders with the,

25:45 you know, they're in charge. They memorize the Bible. They ran Sunday school and he goes,

25:49 your daddy is the devil. That's the kind of things Jesus said.

25:52 Yeah. And so that is not to anyone listening to this, because I know we got a lot of rough

25:56 dudes to listen to this. That is not your license to be a dick to everybody. That's not your license

26:00 to be rude to anyone. But it's like righteous anger and righteous aggression. That's something

26:05 that I think we should practice, which goes back to meekness. But there's another quote in another

26:09 section of this book, which it's haunted me almost. And it's, and it'll make sense here in a second.

26:14 So let me read the quote to you. Look how Jesus ends the sermon. And if you take your Bible seriously,

26:19 these verses will freak you out. He says, not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord,

26:23 will enter the kingdom of heaven, but one who does the will of my father who is in heaven.

26:28 When Jesus speaks this, there are a lot of people on the mountain and he's issuing a warning. Listen,

26:33 man, wake up. There's going to be a bunch of surprise church people who don't get into heaven.

26:37 Then he says to them, on that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy

26:42 in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

26:46 So pastor, that is the scariest part of the entire Bible. There are scary verses.

26:51 There are scary things about God's power that's described in the scriptures.

26:54 That is the scariest part of the entire Bible for somebody that goes to church and for good reason.

27:00 But in light of that, what about things like Acts 2, 21, and it shall come to pass that everyone

27:05 who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It really goes into the question of,

27:10 how can we become saved? How do we know for sure that we are saved? Because if you talk to Calvinist,

27:15 which I've got a lot of buddies that are Calvinist, it's like, if you're not elect, good luck to you,

27:19 and that's kind of how they describe it to where it's just like, wait a minute,

27:23 help me bridge this gap. How can we be saved? So leave me there. Tell me.

27:27 Surrender your life to the lordship of Christ. You'll be saved. See, the difference between Acts

27:32 2 and what Jesus says at the end of the sermon on the Mount, it's just in one word. He says,

27:37 because in Acts 2, it says, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Same thing, Romans

27:41 10, 13, whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But Jesus says in this warning,

27:46 whoever says, Lord, Lord, will not enter the kingdom of heaven. There's a difference between just like

27:51 saying a thing with your mouth, but when you say it in his name, that means that you are

27:55 surrendering to the character and nature of who he is. What it comes down to with the name

28:00 talk is this, do you know him? That's it. That's how that's how it ends in Matthew chapter 25,

28:05 depart from me for I never knew you. And the way that we know that the people at the end of the

28:10 sermon on the Mount did not trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross is because what they

28:16 said when he says you're not coming to heaven is they immediately showed them their religious

28:20 resume. They did not say, no, no, no, but I put my faith and trust in you. This is how we know

28:26 that the Beatitudes is an invitation into the gospel because that sermon ends, begins and ends

28:32 with the same thing. It ends with the gospel and begins and ends with the gospel. And the gospel

28:35 is not God is good. You're bad. Try harder. Good luck getting into heaven. The gospel is that God

28:41 made him who was without sin to be sinned for us that we would be made the righteousness of God.

28:45 So how do you get saved? First and foremost, you admit it. I'm a sinner that needs a Savior.

28:50 The second is you believe trust. Pustuo is the Greek word that when Jesus died on the cross,

28:55 somehow that counted for me. And then the Bible says, confess him as Lord. And Lord means

29:01 like, like the word make, I'm turning over the reins of my life to you. You're the boss of me.

29:06 I'm not the boss of me anymore. So yeah, they're going to be some surprise people.

29:10 Well, talk to me a little bit more like that, like putting faith in it, putting trust in,

29:13 because this is where it gets granular in this again. This is where I think Calvinist folks

29:16 have a hard time explaining this to people in any way, because it's like, yeah, great,

29:19 you understand all the theology. That's wonderful. But what does that mean for me? What do I do?

29:24 Because a normal, well, I put it in kind of in the frame of a Muslim, a Muslim when they die,

29:28 unless they die via jihad, they have no idea if they're going to heaven or not, because their

29:32 good deeds need to outweigh their bad deeds. So how about, how about this? A Christian could

29:36 walk around being very, very confused about, have I trusted in Christ more than I've not?

29:41 Because I've leaned on my own understanding a lot. And I made a lot of decisions on my own

29:46 that I feel like are within the will of God. But I didn't just say, Hey, God, do it. I forgot to

29:50 pray before I made that decision. You see how this kind of works itself out in real life.

29:55 Again, kind of break it down for those understanding where that that's just too theological. This

29:59 doesn't make enough sense for him. So the word that you're talking about in the Bible would be

30:03 the word justified and justified as a legal term. And justified is a thing that happens in a moment

30:08 in time. And justified means though I am guilty, I am proclaimed innocent. This is not a complete

30:16 definition, but it's a decent enough way to remember it. It's because of what Christ has done for me.

30:20 It's just as if I'd never sin. And ultimately it's this, all sin must be paid for. You got

30:26 two options. Are you going to pay or are you going to take the substitutionary payment,

30:31 payment in its home that means the same thing in the Bible. And so in order, the Bible says that

30:35 the wages of sin is death. So you can self atone. God is a holy and just God. Any sin against an

30:41 almighty ever loving God requires an everlasting punishment. And you can do that with an eternal

30:46 separation from him. Or you can take the substitutionary atonement and believe or trust

30:52 that when he died on the cross, somehow that counted for me. The illustration I use in the book is

30:59 when I was a kid learning how to swim, my dad would put me on the diving board. He would get in the

31:04 deep end and he would say, all right, buddy, come on and jump. All right, the Greek word is postuo.

31:09 That's what we translated believe. I kind of hate that we translated believe because there's a

31:14 difference between believing in and believing that while standing on the diving board, I believe that

31:20 that's my dad. Looks like him sounds like him. I recognize him. He's got the Marlboro light hanging

31:26 out his lip while swimming in the deep end. Okay, that's my dad. But at that point, I'm still holding

31:31 my life up. I'm still trusting in me on top of that diving board. And I know that if I were to

31:38 jump in that water and he lets me go, I'm going to drown because I don't know how to swim yet.

31:43 But the question is, do I believe, do I trust that he is who he says he is and he's going to keep

31:48 his promise that I can trust him to hold up my life? The moment I step off of that diving board

31:53 into his arms, that's what the Bible means when it says postuo. So that happened for me when I was

31:59 a teenager at that camp, not that I had everything figured out, not that I lived the perfect life

32:05 since then, not that I even knew theologically what was happening. I just believed when I knew

32:10 I was a sinner too, I believe when Jesus says it is finished or to tell a style on the cross,

32:16 somehow that counted for me. And I was putting my trust in that and not me. You do that,

32:23 nothing can snatch you out of the hand of God. Now, all of your struggles, we talk about this at

32:29 the mountain of temptation, your heart is changed immediately and justified, but you still got the

32:34 same brain, man, got the same mind. You still have the same birth order, the same any gram number,

32:38 if you're into that, whatever it is. And so now from this moment, the moment you surrender to

32:43 Christ until you're glorified with him, there is this progressive sanctification that happens from

32:48 here from here to there. Well, I appreciate you teasing that out and going a little bit further

32:52 and guys, we can't spend all day on that. We got a lot of other good stuff to get to. But I think

32:56 I think a good walk away or your three point for that is the believe believes a tough word. Like,

33:00 when you say you believe in gravity, like people know what you mean, but all of a sudden if you say

33:04 believe in Christ, or like, well, what do you mean by believe? Can you know that? It's like, well,

33:08 yeah, you know that if you get up on top of your house and jump off that you're going to hit the

33:10 ground, like you have trust, you have faith, you have belief in gravity. It's kind of the same thing

33:15 there to kind of put a bow on the book, because I do want to get into some other subjects.

33:19 When you're talking in chapter six, it's the amount of transfiguration. I'm going to read this quote

33:22 to you here. Well, you should write this down, especially if you're a millennial or younger,

33:26 fairness is not a biblical value. God does what he wants with whom he wants when he wants. Why?

33:33 Because he's the sovereign king of the universe. That reality should comfort you more than it

33:38 ruffles you because he is good. I've got some more breaking news for you, Pastor. We live in a

33:43 world where everything revolves around us because I is a millennial, right? And the world's got to

33:47 revolve around me. And right when I graduated from college, I should have got the corner office job

33:52 because I'm so smart and so amazing, right? This ruffles us to our core. And this goes back to

33:57 what we were talking about earlier, about how God is and he's not about you. He's about him.

34:02 But why should we take comfort in the fact that he's the sovereign king of the universe that's not

34:07 too terribly concerned about whether or not we're comfortable and happy? Yeah, but he is concerned

34:12 about your soul. And he has demonstrated his love for you fully and finally at the cross. So which

34:17 means your circumstances don't tell you who you are anymore. Because what often happens, bro,

34:21 is the devil tries to define you by your scars. And Jesus says, no, no, man, you're going to be

34:26 defined by mine. The sovereign king of the universe has come on a rescue mission to seek

34:32 and save you if you would just believe that is comforting. So if my circumstances are going crazy,

34:38 I trust in the one who still has the world in his hands. And he has already demonstrated

34:44 his will toward me is goodness and grace at the cross. That's comforting. Absolutely. Well,

34:49 guys, I just got to tell you, if the tomb is empty, it's one of the best books that I've read so far

34:53 this year, I'm not playing with you. You know, I don't tell lies on the show. So it is in the show

34:57 notes so you guys can go and pick that up. But now I want to get into a bunch of other random topics

35:00 that are still kind of in the under the umbrella of Krishna, if you will. The first thing is manhood

35:05 in the church and manhood in culture. So I think that churches in modern church, they do this thing.

35:11 It's kind of a trick where they pretend that they care about the men by doing men's programming.

35:17 So once a year, they'll do like a man thing where they'll get together and eat chili and, you know,

35:21 deer meat or something like that. And they bring in some speaker and they kind of do that thing,

35:24 which those things are fine. You know, they do this programming thing. But for the other days of the

35:29 year, the church is not man friendly. Whenever they're singing the songs, whenever they're listening

35:34 to the pastor, whenever they're doing things, it's as if the church is communicating to them,

35:38 Hey, this is it for you. We didn't have you in mind when we did this. We just assumed you would

35:42 show up and just deal with it. The majority of Christian books are consumed by women. The

35:45 overwhelming majority of Christian music is consumed by women. And so I think that's created an issue.

35:50 And here we are in this point in culture where we can't even tell you what a man is. We can't

35:54 even tell you what a woman is. And we can say, depending upon what you ate that morning,

35:57 you might think you're the other thing. And so talk in general about yourself,

36:00 because here you are, you got a bunch of Dan animals behind you. You kind of, you know,

36:04 check some of the typical man boxes, but talk to me about manhood in the church and in culture.

36:09 Yeah, man, you're right. I mean, from the empty tomb until today,

36:13 women have been holding it down in the church, you know. And I think for a long time, this is going

36:18 to give me, it would give me a ton of trouble depending on the circles. But I've told our church

36:23 for a long time, man, that church is like a shirt. You realize this? Church is like a shirt.

36:28 I can put on my shirt. I look fine. My wife can put on my shirt. She looks great. All right.

36:33 My wife can put on a blouse. She looks fine. I put on a blouse. Something's weird.

36:38 The church has been like a blouse for the last 100 years. It is, it only fits women.

36:44 So here at 1122, we're moving for all people. But let me tell you, bro, I don't target men,

36:49 I disciple men. That's the difference. Chili ain't ever done anything. I'm pro chili, man. I kill

36:54 deer all the time. Last time I bought red meat, I have no idea when that is. So I do all the things.

37:00 I'm, I'm a redneck, I hunt, I fish, I got more guns than I have fingers. I got one on me right

37:06 now. I drive a four wheel drive truck. I like college football. None of that makes me a man.

37:11 It makes me awesome, but it does not make me a man. According to the Bible, well,

37:16 first of all, I will tell you this, an attack on gender is an attack on the character and nature

37:21 of God. Make no bones about it, man. We're not just talking about legalities and trying to make

37:25 people feel comfortable or whatever, bro. This, an attack on gender is an attack on the character

37:31 and nature of God, male and female. He created them so that we could both image him rightly.

37:38 And so, man, we disciple men. I mean, it's what we do here at this church.

37:42 And you can't stand up and act like men until you first and foremost bend your knee to the God

37:47 man, Jesus Christ. And in creation, you see that God gave every single man a woman to love,

37:55 a will to obey and work to enjoy. And then the enemy comes along and twists all three of those

38:02 things. And so typically the response is one of two extremes and both of them are bad. One is,

38:10 you get into this like machismo where you beat your chest and you just try to out drink people

38:14 or out arm wrestle or whatever, you know, prove yourself that you're a man by what you consume.

38:20 And dude, men don't take men give men serve, right? Or you go really the way of the church and

38:28 you just feminize everybody. And part of the reason the church has failed with men for so

38:33 long is they ask men to be women. Just come in here, sit down, be quiet, be nice, put on a robe,

38:37 get in groups, talk about your feelings. Well, I'm not doing that either, man. It's partly

38:41 why we planted this church because you do not have to check your testicles at the door to follow

38:45 after Jesus. In fact, you can't rightly follow after Jesus as a man if you do check them at the door

38:50 that you got to grow a pair, stand up and act like a man and be the man that God has called us to be.

38:55 But the reason God has given us strength, the reason God has called us to be men is to be profit,

39:01 to be priest, to be servant king, to be provider and protector for those that he has put around us.

39:07 That's what Christ has called men to do. Well, Joby, I just got to tell you, I'm not one to blow

39:12 smoke. That may have been one of my favorite answers in the history of this podcast. We've

39:15 been doing the things since 2017. And just the blouse comment is probably worth the price of

39:20 admission for those that are still listening to the show. We really, really appreciate that sentiment.

39:24 But I think it dovetails into the very next thing because you talked about how you go after the men,

39:28 how you work to disciple them. Part of it is because I think men are worried about what they

39:32 consider to be real issues that are happening in the world today. You know, think of the hard

39:36 subject. So maybe it's abortion or Black Lives Matter or just race in general in America,

39:42 transgenderism, you know, the attack on gender, the LGBTQ revolution, fundamentalist Islam,

39:46 all these different things and pastors seemingly don't want to touch these things at all.

39:52 And I use this phrase specifically, they hide behind the gospel. And what I mean by that is

39:57 they just want to teach the Bible and exegete and all those things that we all need. And yet,

40:02 whenever you leave, you don't know how to apply what you just heard to the next school board meeting

40:07 or to your child that was just exposed to pornography or to your kid that comes home and says, Hey,

40:11 Johnny says he's Jane now, what do I do with that? I'm eight years old. And so why aren't pastors,

40:16 aside from the fact that a lot of them are just cowards in general, why won't a lot of pastors

40:20 touch these hot button issues that we could glorify God if we were to, you know, operate inside of

40:27 them? Think of the abortion thing. What is more, you know, tangible to the word of God than the

40:30 amago day written on the hands or written on, you know, the souls of all these people help me.

40:35 Yeah, one of the things I would say is that the farther away you are from anything,

40:39 the simpler the solution seems. And a bunch of us that sit in my seat took a beating over the last

40:46 few years. And it's, I've been in ministry for almost 30 years and the last two were the toughest

40:52 ever. Because what we found, man, first of all, none of us had led through anything like this.

40:57 There's the racial unrest, the pandemic, the political unrest, the LGBTQ plus movement that

41:08 seems to be has so much momentum. Okay, so you got all these things going on. Then we're isolated,

41:14 sitting in our homes by ourselves all the time. And if every day you turn on the news and the

41:20 next city is burning down, then all of a sudden these people that were, that were fans and followers

41:27 over what you were doing as a leader, all of a sudden are firing off just some of the meanest

41:30 things you've ever heard, right? And what I found, bro, is no matter what you do as a leader,

41:35 it's all three little bears, bro. For some people, it's not enough for some people, it's too much.

41:39 And for some people, it's just right. So call back to back emails. I got one email that says,

41:45 Pastor Joby, I'm leaving the church because all you do is talk about race.

41:49 The literally the next email says, I'm leaving the church because we haven't even mentioned

41:54 race. And I'm like, well, there you go, man. So you could ask those two people. And even though

42:00 I'm trying to rightly divide the word of God and can like,

42:04 contend for the gospel and hold on to, you know, figure out what's going on in the culture.

42:10 A lot of it's just in the ear of the hearer. And so you got to teach the full council, man.

42:16 I would highly encourage you to walk through books like First Corinthians because it was a

42:20 train wreck and Paul, what Paul is doing is Paul is putting feet to the gospel and saying,

42:25 this is what the gospel implications are in your life in regards to what's happening in your

42:31 culture right now. And so the thing is, bro, everybody thinks they want to be a prophet until

42:36 they're prophetic. And then anytime you are a prophet, everybody wants to kill you from both sides.

42:41 But it's just what we signed up for, man. I mean, I don't know. I tell people, I'm not the mail,

42:45 man. I don't write it. I just deliver it. Hey, I mean, you mentioned Elijah in the book. And we

42:50 named our second son, Elijah. And it's like that guy wasn't incredibly popular during his day. And

42:55 yet here we are talking about him because of the important things that he did as a prophet. But I

42:59 think all this kind of goes into as well. What we've kind of seen, and this is kind of the easiest

43:04 arrow to sling at someone in your line of work, is the fall of prominent pastors, because there

43:10 is like a Mount Rushmore of prominent pastors at a fallen. So even recently, Brian Houston and Carl

43:15 Lynch of Hillsong, you've got Robbie Zacharias, all the things that came out after his death,

43:20 you know, from RZIM. Yeah, Bill Hybels, right? A couple of years back with the Willow Creek

43:24 Community Church. All those guys that just mentioned, it was all sex scandals in some way, shape,

43:28 or form. They all had to do a sex and, you know, acting out in that way. And to be honest,

43:33 you don't have to say it or cosign it. I'll say it. There's a whole slew of pastors that very likely

43:37 should fall. I'm thinking about guys like Joel Osteen, Stephen Furtick, and maybe some others,

43:41 some guys that probably don't deserve, you know, the stage that they're standing on.

43:44 It's this cult of personality. It's people that are insulated from rebuke and accountability.

43:49 It's guys that aren't, they're not, you know, leading pastors, they're CEOs. Like they don't

43:54 have a deacon board. They have a board of directors that they happen to be the chairman of. It's that

43:59 type of a thing. And it's, it's a reminder to us to not put our faith in man, you know,

44:03 regardless of the man. But talk about that because I'm sure every time one of these prominent

44:07 best selling pastors, you know, falls off, it's got to hurt your business, right?

44:11 Yeah, it hurts my heart more than anything, man. I mean,

44:15 when this stuff happened 10 years ago, I was talking to one of my buddies about it, man,

44:20 when this stuff happened 10 years ago, it might as well have been Elvis and Madonna and Chewbacca

44:24 going down. We didn't know these people. They were just bigger than life. Man, a lot of these

44:28 dudes now, like, I mean, I, I mean, they're buddies of mine. I know them. I've, I've done

44:32 ministry with them, you know. And so it, it does, man. It hurts my heart. It, um,

44:37 I'll tell you this is a really popular verse. People like to quote, they just quote it way out of

44:42 context. But you know, Peter says that the devil is like a, a lying, right? A roaring lion seeking

44:51 someone to devour. Man, that is in the context. He's talking to elders, pastors in that context.

44:57 And you better know we got an enemy and he wants to steal. He actually in John 10, it says he only

45:04 wants to steal and destroy. And so man, I, I hate it for these churches. I hate it for these,

45:11 these men. I'd like, I'd like to believe that that, that was not their intention when they

45:16 started out, you know. Um, but you, if you don't think you were at war, then it's already over.

45:23 Man, I was, I was reading the Gulag archipelago by Alexander Stoltz, and then he went, he's got

45:28 this line in there when he's talking about how everybody was getting scooped up by the, by the

45:33 Russian police and nobody was doing anything about it. He said this. He says, he says, when it,

45:38 when it comes to a fight, the individual who has predecided that violence is a necessary part of

45:44 the altercation always wins. Yeah. And when I read that, I thought, man, that is the spiritual

45:52 warfare that we're in, bro. There's a whole bunch of Christians that don't realize that violence

45:56 is going to happen against you from the enemy. And if you're not prepared to be violent,

46:01 dude, you're already taken out. And so you, you mentioned, um, the way some of these guys are set

46:07 up, that was a big part of the problem. Um, when we planted this church in 2012, I put together an

46:12 elder board of local elders. And before the church grabbed onto that word in Greek, it just meant

46:19 old dude. That's just what the word meant. Yeah. And so I've got, I got seven or eight elders now,

46:25 and they're all, I think our youngest might be 57, our oldest is 84, but they're all led stuff.

46:33 None of them work for me. They're also local dudes. Um, for sure, I've got groups of friends

46:40 that pass their large churches that spend time with and stuff, but they don't see how I treat my

46:43 wife or how I treat my kids or, you know, that kind of thing. So local elders matter that can tell

46:48 you no, that matters. Every time one of these dudes falls, my staff, you know, they get a little

46:54 panicky and they say, what happened? And I can, I could look, I can tell you exactly what happened

46:59 with everybody you mentioned. This dude started down a road and the spirit of God said, whoa,

47:05 whoa, whoa, whoa. And this dude went, forget you. I got this. And we ain't got this, man. So I think

47:12 that matters. Secondly, I think a lot of these guys that have any friends, man, like real friends.

47:17 If all you're trying to do is run around with superstars, man, I don't know that you're,

47:21 you're real friends. Do you have like real buddies that can call you by your first name

47:26 and joke on you? And maybe you need to be the butt of the joke pretty consistently.

47:31 Because isolation, man, is a, is a, is an incredible tool of the enemy.

47:35 And then third, you know, we've mentioned hunting before, I think it's a really good idea. Do you

47:42 have some kind of productive, healthy hobby or outlet that can consume you? Because especially

47:50 like the big mega guys and the, those of us that pass through real big churches or church planters,

47:54 man, we're all in search for this little zing anyway. And so for me, like, look, man, I'm,

48:00 it's turkey season right now. And I'm taking my son, turkey hunting this weekend. And I can't wait.

48:04 I know it sounds dumb to people that aren't into it, but I don't care. I cannot wait to get on that

48:08 gobble and hope I can get him in front of us. And then JP just bust his head off, you know,

48:13 can't wait for it. Well, then what happens when people don't have like legit hobbies,

48:17 is they end up looking for that zing in somewhere that ain't good. Like they go into some kind of

48:21 weird gambling thing or they start talking to somebody that's not their wife or they begin to go

48:26 down that kind of road. And, but yeah, man, my heart breaks for really those, those churches, man,

48:35 those sheep without a shepherd that they get all tangled up. I mean, Paul says this, Paul says in

48:45 1 Corinthians 11, 1 Paul says, follow me as I follow Christ. I mean, that's a pretty bold statement.

48:52 It's in our Bible. I need to be able to rightly say that to my church. Now, you're not putting

48:59 your faith in me. You're not putting your trust in me. But God has called me to shepherd you.

49:04 I need to be able to rightly say, if you follow in the path that I'm on, it's going to lead you

49:09 to Jesus. And there is that kind of trust relationship that people at church is all to be able to have

49:16 with their leadership. And when that trust is betrayed, it hurts really, really bad, man, really

49:21 bad. So, you know, I pray for those churches. I pray for those people. I mean, I really do. I'm not,

49:28 I'm not a big fan of the guy that falls and in a minute, he's right back in the pulpit somewhere,

49:32 you know, I don't think anybody has a right to be a pastor. I think disqualifications mean you're

49:37 disqualified. But yeah, dude, it's an epidemic, man. It really is. And of course, I mean,

49:44 you're a high value target when you're a pastor, because obviously if you can fall,

49:48 everyone can point at you and be like, well, I should I listen to your God's version of morality

49:52 because look at what your main guy did. But I think part of the reason that that people struggle,

49:57 and this is even people that are in those churches, is they want to put their trust in somebody,

50:01 but they're not actually trusting a person. They're trusting a personality. They're trusting a face

50:05 on a screen. And it's because a lot of churches and maybe you can kind of speak to this. And it's

50:09 going to seem like I'm giving you crap, but I know you can handle it. It's this startup, you know,

50:14 mentality that a lot of these guys have that, you know, it's this growth model and they create

50:20 some issues. And so it's like, okay, our church got too big. So let's go to multi site, you know,

50:24 I went to the church for over 10 years that started the multi site revolution and invented

50:29 church online. Okay, like I'm fully aware of all those different things and the value you can get.

50:34 The problem is is how disconnected you technically are because your pastor doesn't know your name

50:39 and they try to get a campus pastor or something like that. But it's like, they also don't know

50:43 your name and they're like, okay, well, we're going to have these multiple layers. And then

50:46 it turns into a flow chart. It turns into an org chart. And you're not actually following the

50:51 individual person. So it's like, Hey, follow me as I follow Christ. They're like, which guy,

50:56 which guy with the fancy haircut and tight pants do I follow this week? Because I'm losing track.

51:00 So I know that's a little bit of an underhanded blow and a lot of these guys because just because

51:04 your church is big does not mean your church is unhealthy. While there are a lot of unhealthy

51:08 churches that are big, the same can be said about small churches and medium churches. But I do find

51:13 that there are some issues with that multi site online church model. So tell me if I'm wrong and

51:19 tell me why? Yeah, man, the great commission is quite the great call, right? So my question is

51:24 the man our church is huge. We're 10 years old. It'll be, I don't know, well, it's Easter. It'll be 20,000

51:29 people here this weekend. We have eight sites. We'll be at 11 by the end of next year. Three of those

51:34 are in prisons. We don't call our online experience a campus for ecclesiological reasons, but I don't

51:43 want geography to determine who we can disciple. You know, we got people from all over again. You

51:47 know, so a lot of us are trying to figure this out as we go. But dude, the question I always ask is,

51:53 who would you like for me to kick out? Like, just during this series that we're in right now,

52:01 we've had over 350 people at least signified a first time decision to follow after Jesus.

52:06 Which one of those do you want me to say? Well, we're too big. You can't come along anymore.

52:10 Like we've never tried to be a big church, man. We're just trying to reach one more because he's

52:14 the kind that leaves the 99 to go reach the one. And so we do reproduce, we try to reproduce a

52:19 whole bunch of pastors. I will tell you this, if, if you've got, if you go to a church with

52:24 a few hundred people, the pastor don't know you, man. How can you know? You know, I mean,

52:29 everybody, the biggest campfire you can hold, but 50 people maybe. And even that, I have a hard

52:34 time hanging out with the people that share my last name and home address much less. Been time

52:38 with all the people coming out of church. Part of the way we do church, we're not trying to say

52:45 we're the way we just trying to be faithful to how God has put us together as a Bible believing

52:50 gospel centered church. We do the multi-site thing so that we don't build one big giant

52:55 megaplex with like 20,000 people sitting in it so that we can partner with our people all over

53:00 the city of Jacksonville in the neighborhoods that they live in so that they can invite their

53:04 people to come meet Jesus right where they live. And our campus pastors are way more accessible

53:11 than I am because they're not doing book podcasts and they don't have to work 25 hours a week

53:17 writing a sermon. Their primary job is to care for and disciple people. And then in actuality,

53:24 according to the book of Ephesians chapter four, my job isn't even to do ministry.

53:29 My job is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. So what we're trying to do,

53:34 because one of the questions I ask is all the time, Kyle, when people want to meet with me,

53:39 I ask them, do you want me or do you want help? Because I can get you help right now.

53:43 But if you want to talk to me, it's actually just because I'm the guy on stage with the face of my

53:48 you don't need me, man. I'm the worst counselor on the planet. You don't want me to do marriage

53:52 counseling. It's going to take me three seconds to tell you, hey, man, you put Jesus in the middle,

53:58 you love her like he loves you and mama, you respect him. All right, I'm done. That's all I got.

54:02 You need an actual, so what we try to do is equip the saints for the work of the ministry

54:07 so that people can be discipled. I mean, the crazy thing is, is that in our model,

54:14 we are way more decentralized from a ministry standpoint than the single church with 300

54:22 people in it and everybody goes to the pastor for everything. Like I would ask that pastor,

54:27 see, I've already decided you don't have to come for me to me for everything. I believe in the

54:31 priesthood of the believer and the indwelling spirit of God in every believer here. And so,

54:36 I'm not the only disciple maker here. We have an army of disciple makers all over the city.

54:40 So let me ask you, pastor, why do you think everybody has to come to you to get what they

54:47 need? Like who's the one with the ego? And I'm not saying I don't have an ego. I'm just saying,

54:52 I think everybody does. So, and again, man, I'm not knocking the way anybody else wants to

54:59 try to do church. You see, it's kind of crazy. In the Old Testament, man, worship is really

55:05 prescriptive. They're like, here's the instruments you use. Here's the songs you sing. Here's the

55:09 words you say. Well, it was to one people group in one place at one time. It was the Israelites

55:15 in Israel at the temple. This is what you do. Then the New Testament is a movement for all people

55:20 all around the world. And so, you don't really get that kind of prescription of what church

55:26 ought to look like. I mean, the house church in North Korea that's huddled together in a basement

55:31 right now afraid that they're going to get murdered. And this thing that we're doing here in Jacksonville,

55:36 saying Jesus, same movement, very different expressions. So, I'm just really careful to try to

55:42 to try to require anybody to like fit one particular mold of how God decided to do church.

55:49 But that's just us. Well, Joey, I appreciate you going into more detail with that. And along

55:54 with that, we'll kind of stay in the world of the church world. You've probably heard the

55:58 expression worship wars at different points because everyone kind of has their style of worship.

56:02 And a lot of people will pick their church or leave their church based on the singing and the

56:06 songs. And you know, I've heard people have this conversation. Hey, are you a Hillsong person?

56:10 Or are you a Bethel person? Or are you more of an elevation kind of a guy? And we get into this

56:15 whole idea. And I have a lot of issues personally with contemporary Christian music. Guys that

56:19 listen to my show for a long time know that a lot of the lyrical content is homoerotic.

56:23 I think a lot of it is inappropriate. Yeah, these guys not singing it because they're like,

56:27 why would I sing about a guy that I want to embrace and kiss and hug? It's like,

56:31 that's the God of the universe who sent his son to die. Like, why am I talking about him? Like,

56:35 he's my bro. Like, he's my homie. Like, what up, homie? Like, no, no, no. Like, it becomes a major,

56:40 major issue for people. And then you have people that are like, wait a minute, there's instruments.

56:44 We didn't have those instruments back in the day. That couldn't possibly be the right kind of worship.

56:47 So talk to me a little bit about kind of the worship wars because I frankly don't know and don't

56:51 really care what type of music you all sing at your church. But it is important to glorify God

56:57 and not just our feelings when we sing and worship God, right? That's interesting. I just, like,

57:02 right before this, I was in a meeting with our worship team and a bunch of the new folks on it

57:06 and stuff. And I love the guys and girls that lead worship here and their hearts towards the Lord.

57:12 First and foremost, I told them is this, you can't just say things that are wrong. You just can't. So,

57:18 and what's really, boy, this is some thin ice here. Let's go. Come on out. The water's fine.

57:27 The, well, I mean, I'm not trying to throw stones, but the most doctrinally sound places

57:34 typically have like the worst music. I mean, all the play, look, dude, I'm actually done.

57:40 It's true. I'm actually not God. We're reformed Bible people. We're into it. You know, people got,

57:45 we got like Spurgeon tattoos and stuff. We're into it. All right. And yet there's a bunch of places

57:51 that I would never go to their church and their music is freaking awesome. I'm just telling you,

57:54 it is. And I'm a theologian, dude. We, so part of what I'll say is this, like, if I were to go home,

57:59 it's not just about the emotion whatsoever. You got to say stuff that is true. You cannot

58:03 rightly worship God without right thoughts about God. That matters, man. So if I use this illustration

58:10 for our church, if I were to go home and if I wrote my wife a love song and it started out with,

58:16 I love your beautiful green eyes, she's not going to like it because she ain't got green eyes.

58:20 She thinks I'm singing about somebody else. So if you have things in there that are

58:26 poetically cute and theologically wrong, you can't do that. Okay. That being said,

58:31 there is no preferred style. What do you think God likes? Chinese are Spanish better.

58:37 Bro, it's, it's the, it's out of the heart of the worshiper, but we have to worship him in spirit

58:43 and in truth. And in John chapter four, what Jesus says God is looking for is the worshiper.

58:50 He says, I am looking, there will come a day when those who worship me will worship me in spirit

58:56 and in truth. So I think it's a silly thing to put subjective sort of lenses over different

59:03 styles of music and claim one is better than the other. But all of them should be subjected

59:10 to theological scrutiny to make sure that everything we're singing lines up with the word of God.

59:17 Theological scrutiny is the exact way to say it. Because when guys ask me, they're like, oh,

59:20 yeah, problems with modern, you know, worship music. So what should I listen to? I'm like,

59:23 I'm not going to tell you what type of music you should like because there's a new worship group

59:28 out of Tennessee called the altar music. They've got a banjo and a steel guitar and a fiddle. And

59:33 I mean, it just, it speaks to the O key in me, right? But that may not be your thing. So hip

59:37 on your thing. Who is it? I want to know who that is. The altar music. So they just had the

59:42 conference, the altar conference out in Las Vegas. The lead pastor at this place. He used to be

59:47 the lead singer of one of my favorite Christian metal bands of all time called for today.

59:50 Super aggressive, super theologically sound, but they literally just released an album. And so

59:56 I'm glad I'm giving them a shout out here. Because it's just it's great, great talented people,

1:00:00 but theologically sound. And I get it. That's what you should be looking for. Don't really care

1:00:04 about how many guitars and how many strings are on it. So that's kind of the deal here. But I know

1:00:08 we're in a little bit short on time here. So I want to go ahead and skip to the end. I like to do a

1:00:11 segment towards the end of the show. And it'll be great with you. It's a lightning round segment

1:00:15 called what would you say to someone that said? And so I'm going to say that. And then I'm going

1:00:19 to fill in the blank and you've got 30 seconds no matter what I say to respond to that. So what

1:00:25 would you say to someone that said? You up for it? Yes, sir. All right, let's get into the first one

1:00:29 here. What would you say to someone that said if you lead a Christian congregation, you must have

1:00:34 theological and biblical training? None of the disciples did. Peter was not theologically trained

1:00:42 except by Jesus. So I think you're laying on things, things that the Bible does not lay on them.

1:00:48 However, I got more degrees than Fahrenheit and I am pro preparing yourself for ministry.

1:00:54 But that is a man-made tool that you're you should never be you should never have a

1:00:59 requirements that are greater than the scriptures. Okay. Next one here. What would you say to someone

1:01:03 that said? Country accents are hard to listen to. Then you go hate heaven because this is how

1:01:09 we're going to talk in heaven. Hey, I love it. I'm from Oklahoma. You got a country accent too.

1:01:13 Everybody gets it. All right. Next one here. What would you say to someone that said,

1:01:16 I don't like Joby Martin's preaching style? No problem, man. One of the great things about

1:01:23 living in this country and advances like YouTube and all that you can man. No problem, man. God

1:01:28 bless your ministry. Yeah. Go listen, you know, I and by the way, I don't like it either. I don't

1:01:34 like me at all. I can't wait for the day that I am fully crucified and my flesh is all burn away

1:01:39 and the only thing shining through is my glorified self. So I'm with you and that can't. All right.

1:01:45 Next one here. What would you say to someone that said church online is not the gathering of the

1:01:50 saints? Yeah, you may be right, but the great commission is still the great commission.

1:01:57 And I think you probably would have said the same thing to Paul when he used Paxramana and

1:02:03 the world wide web, which was a road system in Rome, to plant little churches with unqualified

1:02:08 people. And so I would not let geography limit discipleship, but I also would not

1:02:15 stamp everything that's happening online as quote, unquote, ecclesia or church.

1:02:20 I think it's really important there just to bust up my own little segment. There's a,

1:02:24 there's a dissonance and you can hold two disparate thoughts at one time.

1:02:29 It's not taking both sides. It's not fin straddling. Sometimes there isn't a black or white answer.

1:02:33 So I appreciate that next one. Also, there's also an autoolithic audience, man. There's not like one.

1:02:37 So here's what we do with our online experience. We have 1122 online brothers like 300,000 people

1:02:42 that watch every sermon. All right. What are we going to do with these people? Some of them are

1:02:46 just supplementing their own church. Praise God. Like I've got some cousins that are this little

1:02:50 country church in South Carolina. And they say they can serve their church better because they

1:02:55 kind of supplement it with our music and teaching, you know, then there are people that are checking

1:03:00 out the whole Jesus thing. Then there are some people that just missed this weekend, but they're

1:03:04 able to stay more connected at their church, even though they were on vacation. And then there is

1:03:09 this category for whatever reason, right or wrong, nobody's discipling this person. Well, what are we

1:03:14 going to do with that person? Tell them good luck. I'm just telling them, we'll disciple you and help

1:03:19 you get plugged in locally if that's an option. Okay. There's there's a multi layered approach

1:03:26 that's not one size fits all. Yeah, there are healthy approaches and then they're just convenient

1:03:30 ones. So make sure you're looking out and seeking for the healthy ones. All right. Next one here.

1:03:34 What would you say to someone that said a loving God wouldn't allow people to suffer?

1:03:38 I would say he has demonstrated his love at the cross. So you're looking at the wrong

1:03:49 if you're looking to your circumstances to determine whether God is love or not, then you are personifying

1:03:55 what you think love is and you want it to be about you and your comfort. All right. Just a few more

1:04:00 left, you're doing great pastor. What would you say to someone that said Catholicism is an apostate

1:04:05 religion? I would say what happened to you? Like what's going on in there? Because you could probably

1:04:11 say that about any denomination and what is true. And I would, I would say there are some things in

1:04:18 Catholic doctrine that needed to and need to be reformed, but there are Catholics that trust in

1:04:26 Christ alone by grace alone through faith alone for their salvation. So that I would, I would want

1:04:32 to be nuanced there. However, to the Catholic, I would want to talk about workspace righteousness

1:04:38 versus the imputed righteousness of Christ. And that matters a lot. Absolutely. That's where most

1:04:43 of the Reformation needed to happen. Okay, I got a couple left for you. What would you say to someone

1:04:46 that said, the church in America is way too relaxed and quiet on the subject of abortion.

1:04:52 Amen. That's all that needs to be said on that pastor. Last question of the day. Here we go. What

1:04:57 would you say to someone that said, Jesus couldn't possibly save me. I'm way too jacked up. I'd say,

1:05:02 who the freak do you think you are? I mean, if you think your sin can somehow outpace the grace of

1:05:08 Jesus poured out of the cross. First of all, you need to get over yourself. You cannot out send the

1:05:12 love of God that he lavishes his love upon anyone that would receive it. And why don't you get over

1:05:19 yourself and receive it right now? I certainly appreciate that. But pastor, we've gone everywhere

1:05:23 in this conversation. I really appreciate you getting into all the subjects that you did.

1:05:26 But that is all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?

1:05:29 Nah, man. Thanks. Thanks for what you do. I hope it's a blessing to anybody and everybody listening.

1:05:34 All right, Joby Martin. Thank you for coming on on Daunted Life, a man's podcast.

1:05:37 There you go, guys. I hope you enjoyed my time with pastor Joby Martin. Before we let you go,

1:05:41 we are going to do a quick resilience boost at a Daunted Life. Our mission is equipping

1:05:45 men to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual, mental and physical resilience.

1:05:49 So I've got a couple links for you today. I've got a link to the church of 1122's website.

1:05:53 So if you want to get to his sermon content and all the other stuff about the church,

1:05:56 you can go there. And I've also got a link to Joby's Instagram. All right, guys. Thanks so much

1:05:59 for listening to the show. We do appreciate it. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe,

1:06:03 rate and leave us a positive five star view. If you want to come speak live at your event or

1:06:07 on your podcast, shoot me an email to info at undontadotlife. That's I N F O at undontadotlife.

1:06:12 Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,

1:06:16 including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www dot

1:06:20 undontadotlife. And as always, we want to thank the band August Burns read for allowing us to use

1:06:24 their music for our content. The music on this podcast is their song cutting the ties,

1:06:29 which is off their 10th anniversary re-recording of their album Leveler. The links are in the

1:06:33 description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness,

1:06:38 keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.

1:07:03 Bye!