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This is on Daunton life a man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into
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it. Our guy, Steve, we got a special return guest to the podcast. His name is Joby Martin.
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So he is the founder and lead pastor of the church of 1122 in Jacksonville, Florida. They
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also have campuses all over the place. But he's also a speaker and author. He's the host
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of the deep in with pastor Joby Martin podcast. And he wrote a book in 2022 this year called
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if the tomb is empty, why the resurrection means anything is possible. He's got to follow
0:44
up book next year, but we'll talk about that then he was also on this podcast on episode
0:48
three, oh, 17, go back and check that out. But Joby is fast becoming one of my favorite
0:52
people to follow because, you know, I like a sermon style and I like how he preaches and
0:56
I like all those different things. But I've gotten to know him behind the scenes. He and
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I've had a lot of conversations. It's the first time he and I ever spoke to each other
1:03
was on that first podcast interview that he did here on episode three, oh, seven. But
1:07
since then we've been able to develop a friendship and, you know, we lead off this podcast because
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we spend probably the first 40 minutes or so talking about mega churches. Because, you
1:15
know, I know that I've said some very negative things about mega churches and I've kind of
1:19
couched in a very broad way. But he and I kind of had a Peter and Paul moment where he kind
1:25
of basically called me and, you know, called me out on some stuff. And we talked about
1:29
how that interaction went because that was maybe only the second or third time he and
1:32
I had interacted and that was kind of a private conversation. So we spend a lot of time getting
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into that. But we do talk about, you know, how you can make a mega church healthy, how
1:41
just because there's a lot of people that go there and because they have multiple campuses
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and huge buildings and, you know, all this media attention or things like that, that doesn't
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necessarily make them bad because one of the things you need to focus on is you need to
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focus on making disciples. And then you need to focus on continued discipleship. You know,
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I asked him about, you know, having autonomous churches, if something were to happen to him,
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like having this succession plan, like if something happens to Joby Martin, like what
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happens to church of 1122 and all those different things, we talk about emotionally manipulative
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music. But then he's got something that he's about to launch, you know, coming up this
2:11
fall by the time you listen to this may have already been launched. But it's basically,
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I don't want to take it away from you or away from him because I want him to be able to describe
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it. But it's one of the most all encompassing, I'm trying to think of the best way to describe
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it. It's one of the most all encompassing womb to tomb initiatives I've ever heard
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a church do because his church is going to try to eradicate things in his area of the
2:34
globe that most people would never touch. We're talking about human trafficking. We're talking
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about, you know, abortions, we're talking about cleaning out the foster system and getting
2:42
these people, these kids adopted. He's talking about, you know, cops that, you know, basically
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need a place to fill out their paperwork. So they're not having to look over their shoulder
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and, you know, maybe they're going to get ambushed. So many different things like it's
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going to potentially redefine what American evangelicals would do or what would they consider
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to be pro life. And I don't think I'm being hyperbolic when I say that. But also we spent
3:03
some time talking about pastors that get in trouble for real reasons like Robbie Zacharias
3:07
or Carl Lynn's, but then pastors getting in trouble for reasons that don't make sense
3:10
or maybe aren't that big a deal? Like what recently came up with Matt Chandler, he's personal
3:14
friends with Matt Chandler. So we spent some time talking about that. We spent time talking
3:17
about the cultural influence of non-Christians like Jordan Peterson or Joe Rogan. And then
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at the end, you know, I always got to take it here. If I'm able to, we talk about jujitsu.
3:26
So guys, if you hate jujitsu, if you hate got pastors that are forward with their speaking
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and the things that they say, you're going to hate this podcast, you may as well just
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skip it. But one thing I do want to say before we get into the rest of that, I do want to
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support content or sorry, you need to support, you know, these companies that are creating
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support this company. Make sure you go out and then do that kc cattle company.com. But
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guys, this was a great interview. A lot of you love the first time that Joby was on the
5:21
show. And for good reason, obviously he kind of took me by storm. I thought it was just
5:24
going to be another, you know, guy talking to me about his book on the podcast and it became
5:28
one of my favorite interviews ever. This one is no different. So I'm not going to keep
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him from you any longer. So without further ado, let's get into it.
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You'll be Martin. Welcome back to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast. It's my pleasure, bro.
5:39
Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Now I've told you this off air, but I'll say it in front
5:43
of your face as well. Your interview that you did with us earlier this year is one of
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the most talked about interviews. I still get asked about it. You know, people that have
5:51
found your church and found some of the stuff that you've done in your books through that
5:54
podcast. I'm so glad that we got connected through your publisher. But it's going to
5:58
take me a while to set up this first question, but I think it's worth it because one of the
6:01
main reasons why I wanted to have you on today was because you and I had kind of a Peter and
6:05
Paul moment a few months back. And so that's the way I'm describing it like Galatians two,
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Peter and Paul moment. So you call me all the blue. And because, you know, we had, you know,
6:15
traded numbers or whatever, you call me all the blue and you basically say, Hey, man,
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what's your deal with mega churches? Why you keep giving mega churches crap? And I just
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start smiling. You obviously couldn't see that because you're talking on the phone, but
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I just started smiling and I'm like, whatever do you mean, Joby, like what are you talking
6:30
about? And I don't want to ruin it. Maybe I won't set it up as much from there. But
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I found that to be interesting because in our modern parlance and our modern Christianity,
6:39
we always get a little bit, a little bit uncomfortable with disputatious attitudes or when people
6:43
challenge other people. But it's like, Paul walked hundreds of miles on foot to rebuke
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Peter in front of people because he was, you know, basically acting in a racist way. But,
6:53
you know, because he had been influenced by the Judaizers and whole bunch of other stuff.
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But anyway, I'll let you pick up the story from there. So what prompted you to call me
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and then we'll dig even deeper into some of our conversations that have happened since.
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Yeah. So it's interesting. So the first time I was on your podcast, I, I never listened.
7:10
I didn't know you. It was one of about literally a hundred things I was doing because the book
7:16
came out and I was doing the thing, right? And, and quite honestly, I started listening
7:22
to you afterwards. And now I've probably listened to 40 or 50 of your Undaunted Life podcast.
7:32
And, and a part of the reason too is, is my son who is about to turn 17, he loves to listen
7:38
to Joe Rogan. And I'm thinking, Oh my gosh, like, what do I do with that? Right? Yeah.
7:42
I mean, you could fight against it and say, no, that's one way to handle it. And a year
7:45
when he gets out of school, he can do whatever he wants. Anyway, I was trying to look for
7:49
an alternative. You were like the closest positive influence Christian alternative that
7:54
was still a manly man. I started listening to it. And then you're just ripping on mega
7:59
church all the time. And so I, yeah, I was like, bro, we need to chat. Okay. And my greatest
8:07
concern was not whether people like my church or not. Honestly, that's fine. There's lots
8:11
of churches.
8:12
My greatest concern were to the men listening to you because I think you were giving men
8:18
another excuse to not go to church. And they don't need anymore excuses. They've got enough.
8:23
And they like you and they like your aggression and all of that kind of stuff. And I, I just
8:29
don't want you to lead people away from the body of Christ. And I don't think you do either.
8:34
And so I was honestly, bro, I didn't know how it would go. I didn't really care. I do see
8:42
a lot of a younger version of me in you. And so it takes, it takes the man, you know, to
8:49
bestow manhood on another man to call another man out. And I'm a little bit older than you.
8:55
And so I just thought, you know what? I really liked this guy's podcast. I feel like I would
8:59
really like this guy. So I called you. And honestly, man, you handled it with an unbelievable
9:03
amount of humility. There was there was zero defensiveness, which I was kind of shocked
9:12
because you are aggressive. I mean, as aggressive as it gets, right? And you literally fight
9:15
people multiple times a week. And you verbally fight with people all of the time. So I thought
9:21
your instinct was going to be defensiveness. And it wasn't. It was real humility. And
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dude, I'm no expert either. I was just sharing a point of view, you know, I'm not Paul, but
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that's how the conversation went. And then, and then we began having a bunch of conversations
9:36
as you know, but I don't guess your audience would. So now we talk maybe weekly. And, but
9:41
I think it would be a good opportunity for iron to sharpen iron. And, and what I would
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say is this, I've heard, especially when you're talking about like the right to bear arms,
9:51
you would talk about univariate analysis is a poor way to analyze something. And you're
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given a univariate analysis of the church. If you only measure it by how many people attend.
10:02
And somehow you've got to start differentiating that because you want every man listening to
10:07
find a good Bible teaching gospel centered church. And hopefully those churches are reaching
10:11
people. And so I don't think it's just the size of the church that you're criticizing.
10:16
I think it's a style of church that is afraid to preach the Bible is afraid to offend people
10:22
is super effeminate, et cetera. Right. I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with
10:27
how many people attend. So that's what I wanted to challenge you.
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No, I appreciate that. I appreciate you kind of given the context of that because I and
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to be honest with you, I'm not sure if you had called me two years ago, like if this
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were two years ago, if I responded the same way, because because of my style and because
11:13
I have an opinion on everything, like when you go look at my one star reviews on my show,
11:16
it's usually, oh, he's so sure of himself. He's got such an ego. It's like, would you
11:19
listen to a show from somebody that doesn't have a fully formed opinion on anything? Like,
11:23
Oh, yeah, I don't really know what I think about the sports team. I don't really know
11:26
what I think about this book. Like, no, you should have an opinion. And so to a degree,
11:30
I feel like, you know, you take it with a grain of salt. But honestly, I was like, I
11:35
was almost happy to have somebody kind of big brother me a little bit or, you know, good
11:40
uncle me a little bit or father me a little bit in that way, because I've never really
11:44
had a spiritual father or a spiritual mentor in any of those types of things. And so it
11:48
was almost like I felt that maybe you caught me in a good mood. Maybe I just had steak
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for lunch or something like I don't really know, because I am a very defensive person.
11:56
I'm very, very prideful and I have to constantly fight against that. But I guess the thing
12:00
that I appreciated about it, Joby, is it goes back? So you mentioned, you know, Joe
12:03
Rogan, who has such a tremendous influence, even on Christian men. And here's another
12:06
guy, Jordan Peterson has a tremendous influence as a non Christian on Christian men. You know,
12:11
be precise in your speech. I think that's in his first rules book that he did. And that
12:15
was like, Oh my gosh, like I wasn't being very precise in my speech. I knew what I meant
12:21
when I brought up mega churches. But what everybody else was probably hearing was not
12:26
what I meant. And for somebody that, you know, basically talks for a living, like I want
12:30
to make sure that I'm as clear as possible. So you gave me an opportunity. And guys, when
12:35
this episode is going to be released, there's some interviews that I've already recorded,
12:38
where my my, you know, language is not going to be as precise. That'll come out after this.
12:42
So it'll be kind of all over the place. A little bit, but it is allowing me to be more
12:47
precise when I'm talking about healthy churches, because there are healthy churches of all types
12:52
of sizes. But let's kind of dig in because most of our time today is going to be spent
12:56
talking on the mega church deal. So when people normally see or think of mega churches, they
13:00
think of enormous multi site churches with, you know, a great speaker that doesn't necessarily
13:06
dig into the Bible. Maybe it's kind of life coaching stuff with a little bit of Bible
13:09
versus sprinkled over top. That's the church that I went to for like 12 years, right? It's
13:13
basically that type of thing. You don't really see discipleship happening. You don't really
13:18
know if people have actually given their lives to Christ or if they were just emotionally
13:21
manipulated by the music. So let's dig into to the first thing. Well, let's actually
13:26
dig into music because I brought that up. And then we'll get into the more important stuff
13:29
like discipleship. So yes, you have a multi site church. Yes, it's enormous. One of the
13:33
things that really, really bothers me about churches of any size is when they start playing
13:38
this emotional music during the altar call. Yeah, you know, if I were to colloquially call
13:43
at that, because then I'm wondering, are these people being emotionally manipulated to raise
13:47
their hand? And then they're given this false sense that they've actually received the gospel.
13:52
So that seems like a very, very minute thing. But I know that bothers a lot of other people
13:56
because that they've told me the same. So talk to me a little bit about that when it comes
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down to just the style of the presentation from the stage. Well, I think there's all
14:04
kind of worship this described, particularly like in the book of Psalms, you know, there
14:08
are war cries. That's what the word that's what the phrase new song means. It was actually
14:12
a song of victory. And they would get together and chant the victory before they went and
14:16
fought and then come home and sing the new song again. So sometimes like the word hallelujah
14:21
itself means like to jump up down and turn around. It was like a parade term. And then
14:25
there are other songs and songs that are come from the same word that we get the word Sabbath.
14:32
And it's translated like, let us come worship and bow down. And they're salt and melodic
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and David played a harp. And then sometimes he could rip a line apart with his hands. So
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it's not it's not either or hopefully the church has a breath of like emotions behind
14:51
the song. And emotionalism for sure should be avoided, but we are to worship God with
14:57
our emotions. So for sure, man, it's thread in the needle there. And bro, we play all
15:02
kind of different songs and we play certain songs at the end of the service that are in
15:07
a certain style. And we place different songs at the beginning of the service, all that kind
15:11
of stuff. We just want it to enhance and focus literally focus it on the Lord, man, straight
15:15
up, you know, we're not trying to emotionally manipulate people. And part of the reason part
15:19
of the way you see that is how much follow up we try to do with anybody that makes any
15:24
forward step towards Jesus. Because essentially, we're just trying to disciple people, disciple
15:29
them and worship, disciple them in Bible study, disciple them in mission, disciple them in
15:33
everything. And then also man, you know, the style of music at your church, it really does
15:40
is reflective of the people that are in charge of making those decisions. I got saved at
15:45
camp. I'm a camp guy, man. I love it. I did youth ministry for 15 years. And I love the
15:52
end of our services where we play some some music that it's always going to be theologically
15:59
accurate or I'll either change the words or we don't sing it. But man, I want to stir
16:03
the affections of people's heart. I don't think when the woman comes in and breaks the
16:08
alabaster jar, that was just like a robotic kind of thing. But she was pouring out her
16:14
heart and soul and tears on the feet of Jesus. And at some point, if that does, if you don't
16:20
do some version of that, no matter how manly you are and I'm as manly as I get, then something's
16:27
off. Now, you might primarily be like a cerebral guy and you'd rather sing hymns that sound
16:32
like, you know, just kind of very robotic. But at some point, man, if your heart's affections
16:38
are not stirred for the beauty of Christ, not just the, the efficiency of him to keep
16:44
you out of hell, but the, the beauty of Christ who lived and died was resurrected and is
16:50
coming back to get you, then something's off. And so we're trying to help people in all
16:54
of those lanes worship God more holistically when it comes to music.
16:59
Well, let's, let's talk about, I want to talk about discipleship a lot more, but I want
17:02
to couch that really quick because I heard you say this in another talk or another interview,
17:05
and then you just said it again there, that you will actually change the lyrics of songs
17:10
that are sung at your church. If the original lyrics as they were written by the, the writer
17:15
of the song are maybe not theologically accurate or at least theologically ambiguous or something
17:21
like that. And so for me, like, I feel the emotion of God when I listen to brutal music
17:28
that also worships God. So bands like for today, some of us start your show.
17:35
So what starts my show is August Burns read. And so, you know, like they're not a Christian
17:39
band as it were, but like I will tell you, whenever I've been at like, you know, when
17:42
people go to like worship sets or, you know, worship night at church and they're all a
17:45
handsie and all that kind of stuff, I've never really gotten into that because the music for
17:49
whatever reason doesn't really agree with me. But when I've gone to bands like for today
17:53
or, I mean, living sacrifice or these bands that are so adept in their gospel understanding,
17:59
but they bring through a brutal music, that's where I worship, not like that. It's, you know,
18:03
by slamming into somebody else and screaming and doing all those other different things.
18:06
So it's just a different style. And I know that's not really conducive to a massive
18:10
church environment. But talk to me a little bit about why you would even dare to change
18:14
the words of songs because, you know, the woman that that's targeted to the woman that,
18:20
you know, Caleb and air one think about whenever they allow music on their radio stations, you
18:26
know, she understands the words as she's, you know, listened to it 10 times that day,
18:30
driving around doing errands when she's listening to Caleb. Then here you are messing with the
18:34
words, which almost seems like you're manipulating the artists. And you say, Hey, I'm not an artist,
18:39
but here I am manipulating the artistry or whatever. So I know you've gotten that feedback
18:43
and that kick back before. So talk to me a little bit more about that.
18:46
Yeah, man, doctrine matters. You can't rightly love God without right thoughts about God.
18:51
And there are some songs that are, I mean, they're, they're just heretical, you know.
18:56
Yeah. And so we're not going to sing those or, but sometimes it's like the song is great.
19:02
And you put the wrong word here that implies something wrong about God. And so we just,
19:08
we just changed those words. And yeah, it's not just about heart and feelings. Like if,
19:14
if I went home and said to my wife, who has brown hair, if I said to her, Hey, I wrote
19:19
you a song, let me sing it to you. And it started out with how much I love her blue eyes and,
19:24
and red hair. She would not be honored by that song. She would think you're singing about
19:28
somebody else. That's not me. So we're not going to sing songs that are, they say untruths
19:33
or that are, that are so man centered that it's just about me. In our church, we, the
19:40
people in the, in the chairs are not the audience. The audience is God, the people in the chairs
19:46
are the choir and the people on stage are the ones that are actually, you know, like directing,
19:51
not the other way around. Well, the funny thing about that too, is the moment you said
19:55
the word doctrine, I'm probably not a whole lot of people in my audience, but people get
19:58
their hackles up because they're just like, Oh, are you just wanting us to be one of those
20:02
doctrine and focus automatons? But I feel like there is this, this kind of schism and
20:08
this almost dissonance between these two crowds where there's the theological crowd that their
20:12
doctrine is airtight, but they haven't had an emotion since 1997. And then you've got
20:18
the people that are just constantly gushing with emotions and they're trying to find
20:22
that next hill song or Bethel or whatever music that they're, that is just going to make
20:27
them see God in a new way where they're crying and barely be able to drive down the road
20:31
because they're sobbing so hard. So again, I keep teeing up discipleship. That'll be the
20:34
next question I promise. But talk to me about that a little bit of that because I get asked
20:38
questions like that all the time. It's like, Hey, what type of worship are you into? And
20:42
why don't ever you though? Why don't you talk positively about worship? And then they're
20:44
like, well, are you reformed? Or are you this? And you know, what Bible studies would you
20:49
recommend? And they're, they're testing me to see if I've got kind of the doctrinal
20:53
bona fide as it as it were. Yeah. Although you did turn me on to one of my new favorite
20:58
bands, the altar music, that was you, right? Hey, hey, what's funny about that? Hold your
21:03
hold your note on that. So the sing, the band I mentioned earlier twice for today, that
21:08
is probably one of the most biblically based heavy metal bands I've ever listened to in
21:12
my entire life. They're no longer together. The lead singer of that band is the pastor
21:16
of the church that that's called the altar out in somewhere in Tennessee. I forget the
21:21
name of Johnson, Johnson, Johnson, Bill, Tennessee. Now Johnson City, that's right. Johnson, Bill,
21:26
I'm thinking about brought worse. I'm hungry. But like, no, like he's the lead pastor and
21:29
he wrote some of that music. So yeah, brought it all together, bro is super good. But what
21:34
the thing to be careful about in platforms like you and I have is you cannot take your
21:39
personal preference and treat it as a precept of God. So music style is a personal preference.
21:47
All right. And so we've got to be careful about diminishing how other people have been
21:54
created as image bearers of God and how God has wired them to say he's worth it and to
22:00
say, well, what you're doing is not as good as what I'm doing. So sometimes the worship
22:04
wars that happened like years ago about what instruments are okay and not okay. Now it's
22:08
swung over to the other side where people are saying, well, this is like really authentic
22:13
worship and what you're doing is not be I'd be very, very careful about publicly criticizing
22:18
other people's style of worship. And what's crazy, bro? So look, man, we are a doctrinally
22:25
sound. I don't know what church thinks they're not doctrinally sound, but right, you know,
22:28
I'm an act, we're an accident on church. So the amount of assessment I had to go through
22:33
to like get the stamp of approval from accident on is pretty high. And, um, and you've heard
22:38
me preach, bro, we're just a verse by verse book of Bible guys most of the time here.
22:44
So what's crazy is churches like that aren't typically putting out the best music. They're
22:48
just not. And I don't know what the deal is with that. Um, but we do, we write a lot
22:55
of our own music here and, you know, we got some really talented folks, but we are trying
23:00
to do that. We are trying to put out music that could be helpful to other churches that
23:05
would also be trustworthy according to the scriptures. Yeah, you make a good point about
23:09
those, those theologically based doctrinally sound churches. It's almost like you're walking
23:14
into a funeral when you walk into one of their services and then you walk into one of these
23:17
other places where it's the production level is, you know, off the charts and everything
23:20
looks great, but there's nothing to it. And one of the things that I've complimented you
23:24
on on your style, which is why I've come to be such a fan of what you're doing is that
23:28
people with churches that are your size, that have multiple sites that have, you know,
23:33
the, the fancy graphics and all these other different things. Most of those pastors in
23:37
my experience, they will jump into the scripture and then they'll jump right back out to their
23:42
TED talk and they'll jump right back out to their life lesson or whatever. Whereas with
23:46
yours, you will jump into the life lesson or the TED talk and jump right back out and
23:51
go into the scripture. So you'll like just take a slight divergence and then you'll come
23:55
back to the whole point of what you're talking about. What you just did like 20 plus weeks
23:58
on on Psalms, like on different Psalms throughout the Bible. And so it's like, I really appreciate
24:02
that. But now let's get into the meat of kind of like discipleship and kind of how you do
24:06
that. Every church does discipleship different. It's some varying levels of they don't disciple
24:11
at all. They just count you in the annual report as the person that raised their hand
24:14
all the way up to people that like they're chasing you down in the parking lot to make
24:17
sure that you've got, you know, everybody's number and all those types of things. And
24:20
so someone comes into your church and they make a, you know, they, they voice that they're
24:26
going to now follow Christ or whatever. Sorry, Calvinist. If I didn't, you know, couch that
24:29
correctly, but you know, now they're, they're a Christian and the discipleship starts right
24:34
at that moment. So what does church of 11 22 do with that person?
24:39
So first of all, I want to celebrate every positive step towards Jesus. Now I know the
24:46
only reason, only way you can make those is if the father draws you. So, but we want
24:50
to celebrate that. Okay. Yeah. Um, so a lot of times we'll have people raise their hands
24:54
if they're, if they are signifying a first time decision to surrender to Christ, we're
24:59
just trying to make every step, um, simple and observable. So you can fill out the back
25:07
of a card, turn it in, you can text the word surrender to 44 11 22. We follow up with you.
25:13
You can find anybody with a name badge on and just let them know. Uh, we literally have
25:19
people spying on the hand raises and just kind of go up to people. If we can, if it,
25:23
if it, if it like makes sense, you know, we don't want to be weird about it. Um, but
25:28
but the number of people that raise their hand versus the number of people that actually
25:32
let us know, there's a really big gap there, but that doesn't freak me out. I think people,
25:37
some people have been coming for like four or five weeks and the fact that they had the
25:40
courage to just do this knowing somebody could see it. Bro, what an incredible first step
25:46
to say I am responding to the spirit of God in my life. And oftentimes it takes them a
25:50
long time to let us know, but then we have one of three lanes we're trying to get people
25:55
into either serving a disciple group or go on a mission trip. And the reason we do short
26:00
term missions has little to do with the needs around the world. Cause God's just doing fine
26:04
everywhere. It has everything to do with microwaving discipleship and the life of the believer.
26:08
You know, but that's it. So every one of our church knows you take one of those three steps.
26:14
And then sometimes during the year, we might have a shorter step. Like if you're not comfortable
26:18
going and sitting in somebody's house, we might have these larger starter groups that meet
26:22
on church with childcare. But all we're trying to do is come alongside people and help them
26:27
take the next step and what it means to follow Jesus. That by definition is what a follower
26:32
is. And so I developed this thing at our church that we call the discipleship journey. And
26:38
it basically is you ask a few questions around our vision. And the question is just what's
26:42
your next step of, of obedience? And we're just always trying to get people to just take,
26:46
you know, one step at a time.
26:49
So let's talk about how that then moves its way into actually getting numbers around
26:53
salvations. And so your church is like many other churches where you, you know, if you
26:57
have a big weekend or you do a big event, you will say we had X number of people, you
27:01
know, profess their faith in Christ. We did X number of baptisms. We did all those different
27:06
things. And I'm a metrics guy like I come from a baseball background. And so I want
27:10
to see the numbers. Like I nerd out on some of that stuff. But the problem, it's not a
27:13
I guess there a problem. It's a confusion for me is how do you know that now this back
27:19
ends to a much bigger question, which is how the heck do you know that you're saved? And
27:24
I've heard John MacArthur explain his answer to that probably 75 times. And I'm still not
27:29
sure. Right. It's just kind of one of those things where you're like, who are my few are
27:33
my fruits big enough? Or are my fruits, you know, sweet enough that I have actually, you
27:37
know, did I get the Holy Spirit? You know, it's always that, you have that internal
27:41
schism. I'm sure Satan has a whole lot to do with that. But from y'all's end, like,
27:45
when do you feel comfortable putting a tally mark in the? Yeah, this person got saved at
27:49
our event, you know, you know, call him or whatever. Because what we're trying to do
27:53
is celebrate God, not us. And so it's so good that our name, our church name is so dumb.
27:59
And I made it up because we constantly talk about there's one name under heaven whereby
28:02
you must be safe. It ain't my name and ain't the name of our church. Okay. So we're just
28:07
trying to let people see those good works and glorify the Father in heaven. The way I
28:13
would respond, we would have a lot to do with the heart behind the question. So the people
28:18
that I can tell are being skeptical. I typically say, well, if you make it to heaven, I'll be
28:22
happy to introduce you to him. That's how we're not all right. But I would say you want
28:28
them all to be saved, right? That's what you're asking because you wanted to be safe or but
28:33
about half the people don't about half the people are like that. I don't think that's
28:38
right.
28:39
It's almost like they're like, Oh, they don't meet my standards of categorization. So they're
28:43
almost like just pointing a finger or something. And the moment you do that, you're on team
28:46
Pharisee, not team Jesus. I'm just telling you, like Jesus healed the guy on the mat
28:51
said, take up your mat and walk. And the Pharisees couldn't see the miracle. All they could see
28:55
is the mat. So I'm trying to figure out, are you looking at the mat? Or are you looking
29:00
at the miracle that this person may have just put their faith in Jesus? You know, because
29:04
bro, my story is, you know, JD Greer's book quit asking Jesus into your heart. So that
29:11
was me. I asked Jesus into my heart about 20 times at camp, you know, and then just to
29:15
make sure if you had a really good youth evangelist, all you got to do is get all the teenagers
29:19
to question your salvation and all the safe kids get saved again. And then you know, you
29:24
just keep doing that. And so we want to assure people that, you know, it's not just a feeling
29:31
all of those things. It's not your hand raise that saves you. I say this all the time. It's
29:34
not your hand raise that saves you is the life death and resurrection of Christ that does.
29:39
It's his work. It's not yours. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I say if for the very
29:45
first time you were admitting, believing, confessing, then, you know, would you let us
29:50
know by raising your hand, that kind of thing. In fact, there are oftentimes, if I have a
29:56
friend of mine teaching here, and I feel like the salvation invitation was just a little
30:01
bit fuzzy on who's supposed to raise their hand, then we're like, don't put those numbers
30:05
down. And the only reason you've heard all the thing, every numbers is a life, all that
30:11
matters. But as the lead pastor of this organization too, the Bible talks about fruit a lot. And
30:22
there are ways that real farmers measure fruit. They really do. And it's not, it's not like
30:27
they just measure one thing. They don't just say how many apples did we have this year.
30:31
There's a lot that they look at. And I'm not just trying to measure vertical growth, like
30:35
how many people were here at Easter. What we look at more than anything is the horizontal
30:40
growth over time. Like, all right, if we, if this many people raise their hand and, and
30:47
we baptize this many people and our disciple groups aren't growing at a relative rate,
30:53
then what's wrong here? What are we not doing right? How are we failing our people and not
30:57
helping them take next steps? So that's, that's what I'm trying to look at. And if you leave
31:03
any one of those things out, it's really hard to met like the Proverbs say, just look well
31:10
upon your flock. Well, that's my job, man. How, you know, you would, if you're a shepherd,
31:16
there's a lot of things that you're measuring with the sheep to not only care about the
31:21
individual health of each sheep, but also of the flock. And so we're, we have a lot of
31:25
people that spend a lot of time looking at those things because we want to have a healthy
31:29
church where people are discipled.
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32:01
Well, in the individual, like kind of looking at yourself individually, I remember when
32:04
Dale Partridge first said this, it's like, I don't know if he said this on my show or
32:07
if it was in a private conversation, but it was like, it's not how many years you've been
32:10
it's been a Christian is how many hours. And so your life is going to look significantly
32:14
different. If you're like, yeah, I've been a Christian for 20 years versus no, I've
32:17
been a Christian for like 20,000 hours. Like that shows a different level of, you know,
32:22
the worship, different level of Bible study, theological understanding and different things
32:25
like that. But also, I think it's important. And I forget what pastor said this, so I would
32:29
love to give them credit, but I can't remember the guy's name right now. But he was talking
32:32
about, you know, if once you get to the pearly gates, because everybody likes to talk about
32:36
that and they're like, all right, let's check and make sure if we should let this guy in
32:39
or not, if your sentence starts with because I like they say, hey, why should we let you
32:43
in here? And it's like, because I, you don't get it. It's always because, okay, there you
32:48
go. That's right. So it's because he everyone, everybody listening or watching this, do you
32:53
just need to go to YouTube put an Alistair bag, the man on the middle cross, man, I have
32:58
preached this thing about 10 times. And I just say, I was listening to Alistair bag and here's
33:03
what he said. And that whole thing, he gets to the end and says, well, why should I let
33:08
you in? And he goes, the man on the middle cross that I could come bro, dude, that I mean,
33:14
I still, so I'm in my office right now. And it's right behind our stage. And when I, and
33:21
I grew up playing sports and all that kind of stuff. And I watched that YouTube clip right
33:27
before I go out to preach almost every week now, right? You just need to set up a brick
33:32
wall on your doorway. Because that's the wall that you want to run through after you hear
33:35
a guy say that because you're just like, yeah, because like, dude, you can wrap yourself
33:39
around the axle with, with theology and with right doctrine, as we talked about, we talked
33:44
about why that's important. But then whenever people lose the gospel, whenever you yourself
33:49
lose the gospel, you lose the simplicity within, in that you lose the beauty of it as well.
33:55
So I have one more question on kind of the whole mega church thing that I'm going to
33:57
move on to some more interesting topics, I guess. But since I've talked about it so
34:00
much, I got to, I don't want to give it a short shrift. But one of the problems about
34:04
the church that I used to attend, and again, you guys have heard me say it, I attended
34:07
life church, Craig Rochelle's church for, you know, 12 years or so, I think they started
34:11
the multi site thing, they started you version, they've done some amazing, incredible things.
34:15
But I remember whenever I was kind of a leader amongst the volunteers and things like that,
34:19
I asked one of their main pastors about what would happen if Craig got hit by bus, and
34:25
he, you know, didn't come show up to life the next day, like what would happen to all
34:29
the churches in Oklahoma and the ones in Florida and the ones in, you know, Colorado and New
34:33
York and wherever they were spread out at the time. And the answer was is, well, we don't
34:37
really have a plan. I thought they were kidding, because this guy was really high up who I
34:41
was talking to. And he says, essentially don't have a plan. And I was like, so, so they're
34:45
not going to break off into autonomous churches that they're not going to have every lead
34:49
pastor be elevated, you know, you know, campus pastor elevated to lead pastor and do all
34:54
those different things. They had no frickin idea. Now, I would like to think that they've
34:57
probably developed something like that. I'm going to be very, you know, genuine and hopeful
35:01
that they have done that since then. But that's part of the problem with some of these kind
35:05
of cult of personality churches, if you will, you have a, a Craig Rochelle or a Joby Martin
35:11
or a, or a Mark Driscoll or a Carl Lincer, whoever, and you've got these multiple sites
35:15
and everything's great and grand until that person falls.
35:18
That's a rough list, by the way. I know. I know. I just had to speak a few people on
35:22
that. Real quick. Yeah, I did that to see if you're paying attention. But like, that's
35:25
the thing is like they've got, they've got followers and they've got people that are
35:29
interested, but then you, what if people die? What if they fall? What if they're now disqualified
35:33
from ministry in some way? So I guess I'm setting you up hoping to goodness that y'all
35:38
have something like that for church of 11, 22. Like if something happens to Joby, the church
35:42
can kind of go on and keep serving the greater community and the kingdom of God. But that's
35:46
one of the big problems I have with mega churches as well as it's all about the main guy with
35:50
the main microphone. And then they'll just kind of let the chips fall where they may something
35:53
bad happens.
35:54
So let me ask you before I answer your question, is it really all about me or am I just playing
35:59
the role God's giving me to play? And if I were to throttle back, maybe I'm being unfaithful
36:04
like the one talent guy like, aren't I responsible to just do with what God has given me? And
36:09
so, I mean, I'm not trying to make it about me, but I am the lead pastor and I do preach
36:13
and I preach my face off and I teach the Bible and I beg people to surrender to the Christ
36:18
and people do. And then I push us to go reach more people and send more missionaries and
36:22
plant more churches. And it almost seems to me, people would be more comfortable if God
36:28
used me to do way less because then they wouldn't feel like there was a bigger risk
36:33
when I'm done.
36:35
So first and foremost, it seems like if Craig Rochelle didn't do all that God has called
36:41
him to do, then one day he's got to stand before the Lord and give an account for that. That's
36:45
what Matthew 25 says, that the guys with the talents, they have to give an account and
36:50
I'm going to have to give an account. And I don't want to be the one talent guy that
36:53
because of the fear of what may or may not happen in the future, that I went and dug
36:57
a hole and hid it. So yeah, that's first off. Now, if something happens to me, first and
37:05
foremost, please pray for my family. We were, I was 38 years old when we planted this church
37:10
10 years ago, I just turned 49. And the question I got asked all the time is, what's your succession
37:15
plan? And I was like, first of all, could you pray for my family? Because something is
37:19
going horribly wrong. Either I'm dead, debilitated or disqualified. So whichever one, please pray,
37:25
okay. And I don't know how you set up for that necessarily. Now, here's what I would
37:30
say. We are a staff led elder governed church. All of our elders are lay elders and they're
37:37
all actually old guys. The Hebrew word for elders beard, by the way. So before it was
37:41
a church word, it just meant old dude. So we've got actual old dudes that love to tell
37:46
me no. So they love me and I love them. But and then we've got a really talented staff.
37:51
Now currently what would happen is the current staff, my XB would take over and they'd give
37:58
it a run. And then they would seek to figure out what the spirit of God was telling them
38:04
to do and do whatever he told them to do. That's the best advice in the whole Bible,
38:08
by the way, that's john 25, where they run out of wine at the wedding at cana and Mary
38:13
tells the service, do whatever he tells you to. Now, it don't matter to me. If you want
38:18
to change the name cool, if you want to roll off all the campuses in the churches, we are
38:22
set up to be able to do that. And we have, we have like legit campus pastors and every
38:29
single one of them could preach. But we would just see in that season, just like we didn't
38:35
know exactly what we didn't see this coming. So I don't know exactly how we would be able
38:41
to map that out. We do have all kinds of insurance and all kind of crazy stuff, so everything
38:46
be paid for. But man, we would just see. But I don't know that you can make plans on all
38:52
the bad things that may happen one day, you know, it's really hard to take ground. Like
38:58
I don't know the army that says, you know, as we put together this game plan, what we've
39:03
really got to plan for is losing the battle. So hopefully, I'll get to preach and lead
39:09
until my turn is over, handed over in a really healthy way. I still want to be around here.
39:15
I mean, I've given my life to this, this place and these people. And these are my people,
39:19
man. This is my family. I love these people. And I also want to say, but I'm really, really
39:23
sad that you had a bad experience at that church. And, and I'm sure you could find a
39:30
handful of people that would say the same thing about this church. I'm sure. But that's
39:36
not good. That shouldn't stop you from serving in a church. And it shouldn't stop churches
39:40
for doing all that they need to do.
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40:11
Well, and I appreciate that. And just to be, to be very, very clear, the problem with,
40:18
with the church that I went to with live church, it wasn't as much the church as it was the
40:23
fact that I didn't realize that I had gotten basic, I had served all I could serve and
40:27
I had gotten all I was going to be able to get in about two years, right? Like I, I got
40:31
the point that is, that is almost like a church for Dummy's church. And then like, then they
40:36
kind of, they almost want you to roll off to other churches. They've said that like,
40:39
we'll help you find another church that kind of fits where you're at in your current walk
40:42
with Christ and all that, which, okay, like, you know, some kind of a problem, but you
40:47
know, maybe that works. I don't know. And then, you know, the church doesn't have an elder
40:51
board. It has like a board of directors. And you know, there's a lot of stuff that I find
40:54
to be to be issues with the things that they do over there to where it's like whenever they
40:58
stand before Christ someday and have to give an account, I'm a little concerned about some
41:02
of the decisions that have been made that have been great for growth, that have been
41:06
great for planning churches and doing all these other different really big otherworldly.
41:11
Let's go hang out with Kanye West things. And then it's just kind of tough on the back
41:15
end. So the one thing, so I want to kind of get off that because I go to, I while we're
41:20
talking about life churches, you mentioned them, I would just they have been unbelievably
41:25
helpful to us. Just so you know, like the, the, the kingdomheartedness towards our folks
41:32
and learning from them. They've just been really great. So, but I did want to just say
41:38
that out loud.
41:39
Well, and I appreciate you saying that. And again, to everyone listening to this, because
41:41
I know there are lots of guys that listen to this, like perhaps thousands that that go
41:45
to life church. And again, as I'm trying to, in my imperfect way, be more precise in my
41:50
language and be more directing in a way that's positive overall, you know, I'm going to stumble
41:56
and kind of make, make some, some claims. But I'm just, there are people that go to life
42:00
church for three months and then they want to tell you everything that's wrong with life
42:02
church. But it's like, when you go for over a decade and you see kind of behind the scenes
42:06
and do some things, you have some different things. And you know, if you don't point
42:09
out things that aren't going well, then you don't really know where you can improve.
42:13
But I will say, let me, let me give a little commentary on church growth stuff. So we do
42:17
it. We do, especially when we first started and we haven't changed anything. I just think
42:21
the world changed. So we don't do any like, attractional model stuff. We just like, you
42:26
know, books of the Bible, I teach for an hour. We see we've never done, we don't do cover
42:31
songs and stuff like that. We shouldn't show them video clips of movies. That's not what
42:35
we do. We just glorify God and worship and work. Now we try to do it in an engaging way.
42:40
But I think what happened Kyle is the guys that grew up in that model, which was really
42:47
Rick, Bill and Andy really paved the way for most of us. Yeah. And thank God for those
42:52
guys because you could preach to jeans and a t-shirt and, you know, it could be like normal
42:59
humans could understand what was happening if they didn't grow up in church. So, but I
43:03
think the world changed, bro. I don't think there's like a like seeker sensitive movement.
43:08
I mean, the Bible says no one seeks for God, but, but today, if somebody actually shows
43:13
up in your building, this is just the way I think about it. They've came to church. And
43:18
I think what they're thinking is, regardless of what they believe, they're thinking, I
43:22
need something different. What are you offering? Just give me the goods, man. Don't bait and
43:26
switch me. Don't teach me how to have good family. And then be like, oh, yeah, see that
43:30
work. Now let me give you some Jesus. Just give me the goods. And I don't know if I've
43:33
shared this with you before, but the idea that stuck in my mind is when I was in high
43:37
school, the armed services would come and recruit during the day in an assembly. Can
43:43
you imagine how people would grow crazy these days? Oh, man. And we sat there. And first
43:49
of all, thank God for all the armed services, but the army guy went first and he goes, you
43:53
need to be in the army because you'll earn a skill. You make the most money when you
43:56
get out. The Air Force guy went next and said, Hey, don't be an army. Somebody will shoot
44:01
you to be in the Air Force. You get to stay like you work nine to five living in an apartment.
44:05
The Navy guy was like, these guys are crazy. Come, you can see the whole world on Uncle
44:09
Sam's Dom. And they all talk too long and the Marine went last. And he said, well, the
44:14
other guys went over their time. I have two minutes and then he stopped and he just panned
44:18
the crowd. And he said, but that's okay. Because there's only like two of you have what it
44:22
takes. If you're one of those two, come see me lines out the door. Right. So that's how
44:27
I preach. Yeah. When I preach, I'm like, most of you, you can't do this. There's no way
44:32
you're pulling this off. We say things that are church like you've got three years going
44:35
on a mission trip, or I need your seat. And if that makes you mad, get over yourself.
44:40
You can go to some other church that's not going to ask you to do anything. Jesus disciples
44:43
for three years. And then he said, we're going to the ends of the earth. And then I say now,
44:47
because of COVID, I'll give you three years and three months. And you've got that's how
44:50
long you've got. All right. And then you, you got to go. Why the great commission says
44:54
go. So we do those things one year, instead of handing out bulletins, we handed out child
45:00
packets from Compassion International. So think about every person has one. And then we
45:05
lined the back of the sanctuary with trash cans and said, you can sponsor that kid or
45:09
throw them in the trash. Because if you don't sponsor them, they're going to be eating out
45:11
of the trash ready to go. And people lost their minds. We sponsored every kid. So we
45:17
do that stuff, not because it's a growth strategy. But however, somehow the more offended people
45:26
are, it's crazy. They leave here. They're so mad that I can't believe this guy. They bring
45:30
about six friends the next week to come check it out some more. So it's because there's there's
45:34
something real to it. It's kind of the same thing. Like you could look at it in any way,
45:38
shape or form, you can have this vapid, you know, movie where there's really no plot to
45:44
it. You know exactly what's going to happen. Music that's incredibly predictable or something
45:48
like that. But that we don't attach ourselves to that typically as human beings like there
45:53
has to be some deeper. So even think about I was thinking about a guy like George Strait.
45:56
It seems like he's Rinson repeated the same song multiple times. But why is he so popular?
46:02
Because there's a story in that song that makes sense to you. And so you keep returning
46:07
back to it because you've had that long drive on that road. And all you could think about
46:12
was the one that got away. And so you put on George Strait and like, and you've had that
46:17
bad rodeo experience and you're sore and beat up. And then you listen to George Strait like
46:21
there's something to it. There has to be something you can attach ourselves to. And so when you
46:25
give people again, to use the word vapid scriptures and these, you take them out of context and
46:30
you basically emblazon them on a coffee mug or a T-shirt, you're not giving them the true
46:34
gospel. Don't hide the truth and the teeth of the gospel. The teeth are the best part
46:39
because that's what bites and sticks on. You know what I mean? So before we go any further
46:43
on any of all that stuff, I love everything that we've talked about so far. But you've
46:46
been teeing something up for a while now. Because I've been listening to your servers
46:50
throughout the summer. So y'all are about to move into a season. And my understanding
46:53
is it's going to be a year or two seasons. So not like a hey, come for our four week
46:57
sex series or our four week money series. It's like for the next two years, y'all are
47:02
going to be focusing as a church on something. You're not calling it womb to tomb. That's
47:05
just kind of how I've couched it in my brain. Talk to me a little bit about what that is
47:09
because then I've got lots of questions. Yeah, sure. It's a two year discipleship journey.
47:14
It's called the 10 10 life. It's rooted in john 10 10. What really happened is when the
47:18
pandemic shut things down, to which we'll never shut down again, by the way, if they'll have
47:24
to take me on handcuffs. But we learned a lot through all of that. But the overwhelming
47:29
sense I had is our people need a shepherd. Like when we weren't gathering together in
47:33
buildings. So I sat down much like this set up open my Bible and did 99 devos. Like just
47:40
as if me and you were sitting down, I'd be like, here's some verses you should consider
47:44
in this crazy time. And because I had this thought like our people need a shepherd, I
47:48
kept going to Psalm 23 and John 10. Those are the two preeminent shepherding texts, Old
47:53
Testament, New Testament. Partly why we just talked through the Psalms all summer. And
47:57
now we're doing this John 10 to name. But I don't know if you I'm sure this has happened
48:01
to you. You read a passage over and over and over. I've been a Christian for over 30 years,
48:06
I've been a pastor for 30 years. And so it's like the spirit of God inserted a new word
48:11
that you never saw there. Yeah, john 10 says has the thief only comes to steal, kill and
48:16
destroy only. I'd never seen that word only. It's not like the world's ways. All right,
48:21
God's is better. It's like the only thing the thief is trying to do is steal, kill and
48:25
destroy. And then I would get home and turn on the news. And that's all I saw was stealing,
48:29
killing and destroying. And then Jesus says, but I have, I've come that you may have life
48:35
and have it abundantly. So we said that our, what we're going to try to do is offer abundant
48:39
life to every single image bearer of God that has to do with our, what we're doing as a
48:44
church that also has to do with planting more canvases and planting more churches. We planted
48:49
480 churches since we started. I want to plant 1000 around the world within a 10 year period
48:53
of time. And then also offer that abundant life to every single person that God would
48:59
allow us to. And that means fight for life from womb to tune, not just be pro birth,
49:06
but be pro life from the moment of conception to the moment the person breathes their life.
49:11
So we are partnering with all kinds of organizations. You know, Christian pregnancy crisis centers,
49:20
we're running, forgiving and set free Bible studies for people that bought into the lie
49:26
of the abortionist and, and aborted their baby. We're fostering kids and we're creating
49:32
a network to foster for all the families to help them. We are, we have a special needs,
49:39
pretty robust special needs ministry in partnership with the Tim Tebow Foundation. We're expanding
49:43
that. We're helping provide special needs, adults with job placement. One of the things
49:50
I'm excited about is we're raising up an army of lay chaplains to come alongside our
49:55
first responders and help get the backs of those that fight for a living. We're turning
49:59
all of our campuses into respite centers for the police officers so they can not have
50:03
to be watching their six while they're filling out paperwork and some shady parking lot.
50:08
They can just come into our church and get snacks and coffee and air condition and Wi-Fi
50:11
and all that kind of stuff. All we're fighting is human trafficking partner with the Tim
50:16
Tebow Foundation. Timmy goes to our church. So we partner with them on a bunch of stuff.
50:22
Fighting for the mental health, particularly of our upcoming generation because our adults
50:27
failed the upcoming generation and suicide prevention and then also starting a senior
50:32
adult ministry. One is to like take care of the really old people that need care and love
50:37
and value and then also keep the like about to retire from my vocation. But you don't
50:42
get to retire from the gospel group engaged and not wasting their life picking up seashells.
50:46
And so we're running this thing for the next. Well, we're starting it over the next two
50:51
years. It will shape us for the rest of our life as a church.
50:55
So I mean, that that's just an incredible goal to have. But there's no but here. Essentially,
51:03
that is so many things, Joby, because some churches have trouble. Hey, we need to raise
51:08
X amount of dollars so that they can have this water well somewhere in a country that
51:12
you've never been to. And they have enough trouble pulling something like that off. But
51:16
I mean, you're talking about chap late chaplains. You're talking about, you know, pro life
51:21
stuff you're talking about. You are talking about pro birth stuff. You're talking about
51:24
fostering children, human trafficking, you know, people that have mental disorder. You're
51:28
talking about all that stuff. I mean, just logistically, how in the world are you going
51:33
to keep all that straight? How are you going to put that off? Is it going to be some sort
51:36
of a combination of, you know, partnering with Tim Tebow and his foundation to do the stuff
51:40
that they're good at? Are y'all going to try to become the experts? Because I've had this
51:44
conversation with people as well. There are people that want undaunted life to create
51:48
this that and the other thing. And in my head, I'm like, do I want to create it and then compete
51:52
in the marketplace that that thing is created for? Or do I want to just offload that to people
51:57
that are already doing that and they live and breathe that entire thing? So, so how are
52:00
we pulling this off? Well, one of the ways is because we're a really big church and we
52:05
have lots of staff and I can dedicate people to run these things, but it's primarily partnerships.
52:11
It's primarily fueling and funding and raising awareness and challenging our folks and especially
52:20
men to stand up and act like men and go volunteer at the pregnancy center, go volunteer at the
52:25
refuge house where the people rescued from human trafficking will be. It's helped create
52:31
a support network. It's the large majority of it. There's a lot of money required and
52:36
a lot of time and volunteer hours. But we can do it because we have a lot of people and
52:42
they need to be like hands dirty. And here's what's great about this too. And whatever
52:48
it is that that God tells you to do in our church, we want to fuel and fund that. You
52:53
know, this is not an exhaustive list, you know, maybe there's all kinds of things that will
52:58
come up and we just want to encourage people to do whatever the spirit of God tells them
53:02
to do. See, the real preacher at 1122 ain't me, man. Jesus says he's going to send the
53:07
spirit and the spirit is going to teach you. So, if you've ever learned some Bible stuff,
53:11
you didn't learn it from me because I can, you know, I'm an expository preacher and I
53:17
can expose you to the Bible. I cannot expose the Bible to you. Only the spirit of God can
53:21
do that. So, I just want people to have, like in John 10, the sheep know the voice of the
53:27
shepherd. And so, I want our people to tune in and whatever he tells them to do, do it.
53:33
That's different. Here's what happens in Christian world all the time. The sheep go first and
53:36
ask for the shepherd to come bless the thing they're doing. We're trying to do it the other
53:40
way. And so, that's what we're about to get into.
53:45
So with that in mind, how do you intend to equip the flock with the necessary information
53:52
to because, again, equipping them to pushback darkness? That's why we're here. That's why
53:55
in Dontalife does what we do. How are you going to equip them with the necessary tools
54:00
in order to fight back? And I say that in this way. So, just recently I spoke at my church
54:04
and presented how to defeat pro-abortion arguments, defeating pro-abortion arguments. Now, that
54:08
is one segment of the slew of things that you describe that y'all are going to be tackling
54:12
for the next starting in two years and then beyond that. But a lot of the people that
54:17
showed up to that talk were not equipped. They were well-meaning. They were pro-life
54:22
if they had to pick a side and, you know, check a box or something like that. But their
54:26
entire worldview would have fallen apart if I had said to them, well, what about if the
54:30
woman's raped? Well, you don't have a uterus. So, how could you possibly make a declaration
54:34
in this particular subject matter? And the thing was, is they needed to be equipped.
54:39
When you have, you and I have talked about this before, you run a very, very dangerous,
54:43
you're running a dangerous race or you're playing a dangerous game if you're a preacher
54:46
that preaches the news cycle only. And, you know, it's good to pop into the news cycle
54:51
from time to time, especially when there's human suffering at stake. But when you're
54:55
just preaching about, you know, the FBI raiding Mar-a-Lago, that's probably not the best use
54:59
of your time pastor. But the thing about it is, is I am concerned about these people
55:04
that are going to be gung-ho and then they're just going to fall completely flat just because
55:08
they don't have the information. So, again, I described one thing, just, you know, the
55:11
pro-life side of things in terms of people not killing their babies in the womb. But
55:15
how are you going to make sure that that these people are equipped to push back in these
55:19
ways?
55:20
Yeah, so my primary job, man, is to teach the Bible and inspire people to do whatever
55:24
he tells you to do. And then we partner with a whole bunch of people to equip in specific
55:28
ways. Now, one of the things is like, you know, you shared a YouTube link of you speaking
55:33
so that I couldn't put a few bullets in my gun if people have those kind of things. So,
55:38
I could say real quick, here's some way that you can answer that, these questions. But
55:43
we will be like a clearing house for all kinds of partners and ministries in our city to use
55:48
our facility and our people and meet here to train their people specifically for what
55:52
they need to do. The way we talk about here, our church is way more like an aircraft carrier
55:57
than it is like boots on the ground.
55:59
This is where we house people, we train people, we fuel people up, and then we send them off
56:03
into the front lines. I mean, you know, the way Paul would say to do it is that you equip
56:08
the saints for the work of the ministry. So that's what we're doing. Things like foster
56:12
care, bro, I don't know anything about foster care. I don't know the first thing about it.
56:15
I just know we're supposed to help in that arena. So you start down that road a little
56:20
bit and governance Francis calls us and says, we're all in everything you need. State of
56:25
Florida will help. We'll do the training. We'll help the processes go easier. Can we just
56:30
have some rooms, you know, to host that? Absolutely. The first Coast Women's Service is the anti-abortion
56:37
pregnancy center, gospel center place. We've been supporting them for years. All they need
56:42
is more people, more help, and then they host classes on how to train us, et cetera.
56:48
So I try to stay in my lane, be the preacher and do church. I talk about anything the Bible
56:54
talks about. Abortion is not a political issue. It's a gospel issue that has been politicized.
57:01
These are very different things. Freedom is not a political issue. It's a gospel issue
57:05
that has been politicized. So we talk about these things. However, I am sensitive that
57:11
I want to be a pastor that is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship
57:15
with Jesus Christ. But you don't get a pass if the Bible clearly articulates what is right
57:23
and wrong just because of your politics. You don't get to be on the other side of the Bible.
57:29
A lot of people would love to have that pass. Now, we got a more ground to cover in this
57:32
conversation, but for guys listening to this show that want to help in any even generic
57:37
way with the stuff that y'all are doing out there, how can they help?
57:40
If you just go to our website, coe22.com, then in starting in two weeks from now, whatever
57:47
now is, it will, it'll be everything, it'll be everything we do for the next two years.
57:52
Okay. So guys, that will be in the show notes. I'll make sure that'll be in there, but I
57:55
would definitely, guys, if you're, if your podcast listeners and things like that, I
57:58
know guys reach out to me like, Hey, should I, who should I be listening to? What sermons
58:01
and all that? And some people that you've listened to recently aren't preaching anymore.
58:04
And so, you know, you got to fill the, fill the, you got to have some people come out
58:07
of the bullpen for that. So let's actually transition into that because that came up in
58:10
another conversation I had here recently, I was talking with Alisa Childers and we were
58:14
talking about pastors that have been disqualified and we were talking about some different things
58:17
and Alisa, she's awesome. And the work that she's doing is, is crazy. And like, dude, she's
58:21
knuckles. She's really, really nice, but she is knuckles and she will fight you. And I love
58:25
it. But the thing that, that is interesting to me is I'm wondering if we're seeing the
58:30
beginning of a trend that is going way too far in the other way. So, so let me set that
58:36
up because I did a horrible job so far. So there are churches and there are ministries
58:40
that have hid, you know, but they've hid all the problems from their churches, right?
58:45
They've, they've hid the problems and, and you know, they've hid the, the sexual picadilies
58:49
and they've hid the, the money that was being pushed around, they've hit all of that. And
58:52
then it came out in the wash later. And then it's, it's caused them to be, you know, even
58:56
worse because the coverups always worse than the lie. But then here recently, there was
59:00
the situation with Matt Chandler who, you know, the, the thing that was put out in the public
59:05
about what happened doesn't make any sense. Like, why would you say someone can't, can't
59:09
preach right now? He refused to use the word sin. He called it unhealth. It doesn't make
59:13
any sense. But now everybody's imaginations are going all crazy. And then also I remember
59:17
you during the summer, you apologized at the beginning of one of your sermons because you,
59:21
you said you said something about breastfeeding. I think it was. And dude, like I was trying
59:25
to catch up with all your sermons. So I had just listened to the sermon that you would,
59:29
you were apologizing for your comment. I didn't even remember the comment because it was so
59:34
innocuous. The comment, you know, coming through my ears, I was like, what? So part of my, my
59:39
thing is, is like, it seems like what's happening at the village is that they took a situation
59:43
that wasn't a big deal and they made it the biggest deal possible. And then it's now on
59:47
everybody's headlines and it's all over Twitter. And that will follow a pastor like Matt Chandler
59:51
for the rest of his life. And then something that in my opinion, you didn't need to apologize
59:55
for it. You disagreed. You felt like you needed to apologize. And that's your thing. Are we
59:59
maybe getting too soft on apologies now where we're, we're trying to appease people before
1:00:04
anything really happens? Does that make sense? I feel like I'm maybe not making sense. Now
1:00:08
I'm catching it. Well, um, yeah, our current situation doesn't make sense. So it's really
1:00:14
hard to like clear the heck to even describe it. But I hope you like, obviously, like Robbie
1:00:20
Arzy, I am should have known what was happening whenever Robbie was doing his stuff. And that
1:00:25
should have been front page news. And they should have talked about it from the beginning.
1:00:28
Everything that happened with Hillsong, Carl Linson, Brian Houston, that should have been
1:00:31
front page news from the beginning. They should have owned up to it. The Catholic church, you're
1:00:34
not going to fall out of my eyesight as well. Like all this stuff should have been talked
1:00:37
about. But it's like, we don't want to be apologizing for stuff that's not actually
1:00:40
sinful. Do we? For sure. For sure. So, uh, we'll start with me first. Yeah, I was joking
1:00:46
about breastfeeding. Um, I was actually trying to set up the word has said in the Old Testament
1:00:50
is a word picture of breastfeeding. Like, and it's for, um, it's like we cry out and
1:00:57
God gives us the thing we're crying for. That's what has said steadfast love means. So I was
1:01:02
trying to say it was like a really good thing, but I was joking way back in the day a lady
1:01:05
was breastfeeding on the front row and I found it a bit awkward. Okay. And so dude, I mean,
1:01:11
the militant breastfeeding crew went crazy. I mean, absolutely like lost airman. Okay.
1:01:19
So the reason I apologize, I do try to be very precise in my words. The Bible says careless
1:01:26
words stab like a sword. So intent, you've, you've still got to take responsibilities
1:01:32
for things that are your responsibility, regardless of your intent. So if I was in your studio
1:01:39
right now and I'm playing around with a knife and it slipped out of my hands and stuck you
1:01:42
in the neck, it doesn't matter whether I'm meant to stick you or not. There's a problem.
1:01:47
And it's my responsibility. And so that's what I said. I'm sorry. I was careless with
1:01:52
my words and you know, that that's really all I said. Then in that same sermon though,
1:01:57
about 30 minutes later, I did come back and say, let's talk about words. And let me just
1:02:04
tell you, if you can't handle hyperbolic speech, you're not going to like this church. Like
1:02:08
I never actually killed a cat. I don't like them. I actually don't like the gators. Okay.
1:02:14
I'm not going to like them. Just some things that I've my actual email address is not Jimmy
1:02:19
Craig's cornet. I don't care.com. That's a joke. Okay. That's a joke. I'm just joking.
1:02:23
And you're not going to like the teachings of Jesus because he told people, if your eye
1:02:28
causes you to stand in your hand, causes you to send gouge it out and cut it off. And I
1:02:33
don't think the one handed group like send him an email like, Hey, wait a minute. Everybody's
1:02:36
going to think I lost, you know, so because I had to address that. Now, this current situation
1:02:42
that we're in, bro, it's terrible, man. For sure, cover up is terrible, but you don't get
1:02:47
to solve. You don't get to solve covering up with gossip. That is not to solve. And there's
1:02:54
a whole bunch of people groups of people that call what they do a ministry. And you cannot
1:03:00
tell me it's not just straight gossip about people that they're probably jealous of or
1:03:07
just disagree with a little theologically. And all they are doing is gossiping. They're
1:03:12
just, they're just slandering people and they don't have the information and they don't have
1:03:17
a relationship with them. Oh, and they were not going to name names, but I will gospel
1:03:21
coalition, the Christian post, like Christianity today. Like these are entities that they love
1:03:26
the headlines. They love putting stuff out their relevant magazine, the stupidest name
1:03:30
of any magazine ever because it doesn't mean anything. But anyway, go ahead. Well, it's
1:03:35
just that man. I mean, so Matt is a dear, dear friend of mine, do Matt's a good dude.
1:03:39
Okay. And this thing just got all crazy. I mean, you want to talk about the most humble
1:03:44
guy ever. Here's a guy willfully submitting to a group of elders. And you're right, there's
1:03:50
there's no sin. The and the way that Christianity today published sides, they say inappropriate
1:03:58
online relationship. Oh, yeah. Even with the article said the article doesn't even say
1:04:02
that. No one reads the article and they knew that. Right. And so man. So I tell you what
1:04:08
it does, bro, it all it does is create suspicion, man. It creates suspicion. The rise and fall
1:04:13
of Mars Hill podcast thing is one of the most popular things. All it does is raise suspicion.
1:04:20
So because all right, I'm loud. I preach fairly aggressively. I preach long sermons. We got
1:04:26
a big church. We're multi site. We're actually nine. You write books. Men follow you men
1:04:31
like you too. And so how in the heck is creating suspicion good for the kingdom? Instead? I
1:04:41
mean, Matthew 18 seems to say you have a relationship with somebody you lean in. Let's take the way
1:04:47
we started this podcast together, bro. I didn't even have a relationship with you. I'd just
1:04:51
talk to you one time texted you a few times. And and you were not I'm not saying you were
1:04:56
in sin, but what if I would have used my platform to just blast your podcast? That would have
1:05:03
been an option. Yeah. Or you could just pick up the phone and call somebody. And if you
1:05:07
don't know them, maybe you should keep your mouth shut. Maybe you should talk to some
1:05:10
people that do know them. Or maybe you should lean in and try to help. But yeah, there is
1:05:16
I'm telling you what, you know what you call a thing that lives off of dead bodies, maggots
1:05:21
and vultures. And we got a bunch of that right now. So with that in mind, I feel like, you
1:05:26
know, I named the names, you can go back and rewind it. I'll not name them again. And again,
1:05:31
we don't really know what happened in that situation with pastor Chandler. We don't know
1:05:35
with a bunch of these different situations. We don't know we weren't there. But in and
1:05:39
again, you know, if you're in any type of PR or crisis management, if you've done any
1:05:42
type of training in that area before, which I've done a little bit, it's like you only
1:05:45
admit to what the public knows about. And so like that also creates suspicion. But one
1:05:50
of the things that's very interesting with all of this is the fodder it gives to the deconstructionist
1:05:56
crew, to the progressive Christianity crew, to the ex-vangelical crew. This is a growing
1:06:02
thing. And that's one thing that I mentioned with a lease. I don't know if I maybe mentioned
1:06:04
it off air. But I was like, these ex-vangelicals will go from dozens of followers on TikTok
1:06:10
to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of followers on TikTok in a few weeks. And
1:06:15
I'm like, Well, that's that's a app that is ran by the Chinese Communist Party. That is
1:06:20
one of their plans to help erode America from the inside. Don't you think that's one of
1:06:24
the things that they would want to do is to elevate the voices of these really good looking,
1:06:29
really nicely produced ex-vangelicals that have deconstructed and found Christianity
1:06:33
to be wanting. But they're kind of like mealy mount a version of morality to be like the
1:06:38
best thing that's ever come across. And so I find that to be harmful in a lot of different
1:06:44
ways, because I'm all for truth. I'm all for justice. I want, I wish Ravi Zacharise was
1:06:49
alive when all the things came out about the stuff that he did, so that he would have had
1:06:53
to have suffered on this planet and face judgment on this planet. That's just kind of where
1:06:57
I come from these things. Again, I'm really, really aggressive. But talk to me a little
1:07:00
bit about that, because I know that you've not come to blows like literally, but with
1:07:04
the ex-vangelical, the progressive Christianity, the why aren't you being nice? You know, you're
1:07:09
not loving your neighbor type stuff. Some of that's wrapped up in the stuff that we heard
1:07:12
with the C word back in 2020, the V word you're supposed to get to take care of the C word,
1:07:17
even though it doesn't help you not get the C word. All of those things are kind of wrapped
1:07:20
up in this thing to where it's like, I think you're just being mean, Joby. You're being
1:07:23
too aggressive. You're being too mean. And you're also causing me church hurt, which is
1:07:28
apparently the biggest tent ever to where if you ever stubbed your toe in a church and
1:07:33
all the way up to the main pastor raping you that you've been this part of church hurt.
1:07:38
And it's like those people that have experienced actual church hurt are the ones that are going
1:07:41
to not benefit from you saying everything that could ever possibly happen. That's negative
1:07:45
is church hurt. I got to stop talking because I'm about to pass out. You go, not, but you
1:07:50
know, if you experienced church hurt, it'd be more accurate to say these individuals at
1:07:54
this church hurt me. It's not like the whole organization came against you and conspired
1:07:58
against you to hurt you. And there's all these terms that are thrown around now that, you
1:08:03
know, like spiritual abuse and I'm, and I know that happens, but it is used so much now.
1:08:09
Basically that means I disagree with what you said. And so now that's spiritual abuse.
1:08:13
And honestly, man, it's you talk about it a lot. You're talking about the infiltration
1:08:16
of Marxism in our society. And as it makes this way in the church, then what the really
1:08:21
Marxists that don't even know they are that are only see things in a power dynamic differentiation
1:08:27
instead of like the Bible sees it different in the federal headship based on that Romans
1:08:31
five, either your head is Adam, your head is Jesus. If you begin to immediately see it
1:08:36
in power dynamics, then they just create a new glossary of terminology for churches and
1:08:41
they're doing the same things there. And so here's what I found, bro. If COVID taught
1:08:45
me anything, no matter what I do or say, it's all three little bears. For some people, it's
1:08:51
not enough. For some people too, it's too much. And for some people, it's just right.
1:08:55
Well, listen, man, all I can do is grab the plow, not look back and go in the direction
1:09:00
that Jesus has called me to go. And if anybody wants to come with me, let's go. But I am
1:09:04
not placating to either the, either the people right of me or left of me. I'm just going
1:09:09
to try to do what he has called me to do. But it is a very, very sick situation that
1:09:14
we have right now.
1:09:15
Well, it's a sick situation and it's almost impossible to traverse because I mean, I think
1:09:19
you, you mentioned this one of our first interactions where it's like you got two emails back to
1:09:22
back. One was where, Hey, you, you talk about race too much at your church. And the very
1:09:27
next email was you never talk about race. What's wrong with you? I'm leaving the church.
1:09:30
And the same thing that that'll happen on my show, because I try to make it as clear
1:09:33
as possible. But now I have the words for it's like guys on undaunted life of man's
1:09:37
politics, man's podcast. We will talk about faith. We will talk about culture. We will
1:09:42
talk about politics. And that's not one third of each of those things. And there's going
1:09:45
to be seasons where I focus on only one or only the others or different things like that.
1:09:50
And if you don't like that, you know what you can do to save you and me a bunch of time
1:09:54
and consternation is just move on. Go listen to some other show. Don't send me a 14 page
1:10:00
email explaining to me why you're leaving my show. Just break up with me. Just tell me
1:10:05
it's not going to work out so I can mourn the loss of that one listener and kind of
1:10:10
move on with the rest of my life. But it does create this thing that if you are especially
1:10:14
more a motive empathetic and you always want to please people, you're going to you're going
1:10:18
to be destroyed as a pastor or as a podcaster or as a blogger as anything. At some point,
1:10:24
you have to set a heading for what you're wanting to do. And the heading might be something
1:10:28
like, I don't know, I'm holding up the word of God in front of me right now, maybe understanding
1:10:32
this a little bit deeper and digging into the stuff that's happening there is going to give
1:10:36
you the correct heading that you need so that you don't get swayed by what's happening
1:10:39
in the world in the news cycle.
1:10:42
So here's one thing I did do though, because there is a different swing pastoring a church
1:10:45
and leading a podcast because this is a this is a family. I mean, you know, like you're
1:10:50
a member of the church kind of thing, right? So I'm not just like, I don't care about
1:10:54
you sheet, you just leave. If people would write me mean emails and tell me why they're
1:10:59
leaving, I would just call them on the phone and say, I just need you to read that email
1:11:03
to me. And not one person could do it.
1:11:06
Seriously, because I was like, no, I mean, like I married your kids, you know, like I
1:11:13
buried your grandma, like don't you remember that mission trip we went on? Like, so and
1:11:19
you and I haven't even talked yet, you're doing this because of a decision we made about
1:11:23
mask or no mask or meeting or not meeting or, you know, whatever, whatever the thing
1:11:28
was, there's about five things people could choose from to be mad at. And that's fine.
1:11:32
So what do I need to learn? But I need we need to do this face to face. We need to or
1:11:36
at least on the phone. And I'm telling you, they couldn't, man, because now we're talking
1:11:41
about people. Yeah. And man, these devices are are killing our ability to interact with
1:11:48
one another face to face, right? I mean, there's some wonderful things about them like this
1:11:52
podcast. I'm blessed. My your podcast on a weekly basis. But then, um, you know, I think
1:11:57
it was Mike Tyson when he was just like, nobody would talk to each other. Like this
1:12:00
when I was going up, you just
1:12:01
No, exactly. It's true. Yeah. Well, the same thing is like, look at that. You mentioned
1:12:06
the rise and far of a fall of Mars, Mars Hill. Like if we didn't have this podcast medium,
1:12:11
like what, what is somebody going to write a 20 part, a series in the New York Times,
1:12:16
this expos a on this pastor knows going to read that even whenever newspapers were the
1:12:20
thing where you went down to the corner and, you know, spent 50 cents and got the New
1:12:23
York Times like, well, no one's going to
1:12:25
Actually had it. They actually had an editor and a publisher that had to approve things.
1:12:30
These days you could just get on the internet with whatever pin you have. And it's instant,
1:12:36
it's global and it's forever. And it doesn't have to be true at all. Yeah. I mean, no,
1:12:43
I've experienced that stuff for people come against us for whatever reason. And the things
1:12:46
they're saying is not even true. Yeah. Well, into a degree, you want to correct the record
1:12:51
because capital T truth means something. But at the same time, you can't always react to
1:12:55
the slings and arrows that come your way because then you give them gasoline to the few sparks
1:12:59
that have been them in lit for that or something like that. But that actually, you know, in
1:13:03
a funny way comes back to something that I wanted to circle back to that we talked about
1:13:06
very early in the podcast. You mentioned Joe Rogan. I mentioned Jordan Peterson. Those
1:13:10
are two guys that they've tried to be canceled. I mean, look at the last year, year and a half
1:13:15
for those two gentlemen, they've tried to be canceled in just about every single way that
1:13:18
a human being can be canceled. And they've only gotten bigger. So there's a lesson, take
1:13:22
Jordan Peterson's advice whenever the slings and arrows are coming your way, just batten
1:13:26
down the hatchets for about two weeks, plug your ears. And then whenever everything dies
1:13:29
down and they found somebody else to be mad at and sling their arrows at, then come back
1:13:33
out and do your thing. But don't change your entire worldview because someone got mad at
1:13:36
you and gave you the sad. Yeah, he also said he up Jordan Peterson also says don't apologize
1:13:42
if you haven't done anything wrong. So back to when I took responsibility, I was, I was
1:13:47
apologizing, apologize if you're being careless with my words. And I'm going to tell you, as
1:13:52
a preacher who as bold and confident as I may see, I'm a big old ball of ego and insecurity
1:13:59
just like all the rest of us, especially those of us that like fight and work out and all
1:14:02
of that, right? I mean, it's straight back to wild and hard and I know you love that stuff.
1:14:07
And I will go for the funny reaction. Like I just, and I can, man, I can do it. I can
1:14:14
make people laugh and I can go there. And it's a real sign in me of immaturity. And
1:14:19
I sensed I did that. And now people are like, they didn't hear any of the message because
1:14:25
they're so angry. And there was this mob forming. And so I could take responsibility for my
1:14:30
words being careless. Now, if I was careful with my words and somebody to get angry, I
1:14:36
mean, I get it all the time because I tell people if you die without Christ, you're going
1:14:39
to hell and people get very angry at that. Well, I'm obviously not going to apologize
1:14:42
for that because that's the truth. So, but I think it's right. You don't apologize if
1:14:47
you hadn't done anything wrong. Yeah, I think that's a great way to operate. But the cultural
1:14:52
influence and let's not talk about culture because that gets into a bunch of different
1:14:55
stuff. Let's just talk about the church because there are young boys and young men and old
1:15:00
men, frankly, in the church that are being catechized and discipled by Jordan B. Peterson
1:15:05
and Joe Rogan. And there's some very, very positive things about those two gentlemen.
1:15:10
And then there's our unbelievably negative things about those two gentlemen as well,
1:15:14
way more so on the Joe Rogan side than on the Jefferson side for sure. But I get the struggle
1:15:20
that you had with your teenage son to where he likes listening to Joe Rogan because when
1:15:25
he's talking to a comedian, it's three hours of laughter and fun. When he's talking to
1:15:28
a neuroscientist or a nutritionist or something like that, you learn stuff from people that
1:15:33
you would have never even knew existed. But they were brought onto that show. You know,
1:15:37
you're going to get understanding about things of this world. You're going to understand
1:15:41
things about God from reading 12 rules for life or going back to his series that he did
1:15:45
on Genesis, you know, looking at the psychological side of, you know, from a clinical psychologist
1:15:50
point of view on the book of Genesis, he's about to do one on Exodus. He's writing a
1:15:53
new book about God right now. You're going to be able to glean some amazing things from
1:15:57
those guys. But at the end of the day, neither one of those guys are Christians. And so they're
1:16:01
not bringing actual fruits or jewels or treasure from the Christian worldview to bear in the
1:16:08
stuff that they're doing because they're not grounded in a Judeo-Christian ethic. They're
1:16:12
heavily influenced by it. But these are not gospel-centered human beings. So talk to me
1:16:17
about kind of the good and bad of that. And even as a pastor, like how much can you expose
1:16:21
yourself to that before it starts to poison the well?
1:16:24
All right. So, all right, don't crucify me here or any of your people. Give me a little
1:16:29
little latitude, theologically. I'm as conservative as it gets. Like Jesus is the way to treat
1:16:34
the life. No one comes to Father except through him. It seems, doesn't it seem to you, I've
1:16:39
been thinking about this, man, with Jordan Peterson, you can't spend that much time in
1:16:45
the word of God over time and it not affect you. Like it seems to me like he has owned
1:16:51
his way. Yeah. You know, like, is he just not using the right terminology? I mean, hey,
1:16:57
every time he talks about Jesus, he cries and it says he loves him. And you know what
1:17:00
I mean? Like, so I'm not ready to like, I'm no one's judge. We all know that. But I was
1:17:05
just thinking about it. You know, the Bible says and I say that the word of God will never
1:17:09
return void or in vain. It always does what it sets out to do. Just like the rain waters
1:17:15
the earth and it makes the crops grow. You cannot study God's word. Like that dude has
1:17:20
been in the word, even if it's with the wrong motive in the wrong angle, it's changing it.
1:17:25
It's changing. He talks about God way differently now than he did three years ago. And he talks
1:17:29
about the supremacy of Christ differently and all these things. He just needs, in my opinion,
1:17:35
like I could tell Jordan Peterson, anything smart, dude, he needs an actual conservative
1:17:40
Bible believing evangelical theologian to help him out a little bit. He really does not just
1:17:46
like the Catholic brainiacs and the, you know, high church Anglican brainiacs, but people
1:17:50
that believe the red words are from Jesus, all the words are inspired by God. The miracles
1:17:56
actually happen like a legitimate, I would love, I don't know who Al Moller or somebody
1:18:02
to just like, say, Hey, here's historically, this is what this passage has come to mean
1:18:08
to the church. Now tear it apart and do whatever you're going to do. The Joe Rogan thing, bro.
1:18:17
Honestly, but I swear, I wish I could get my hands on that dude. I think if he hung out
1:18:23
here for a year, he'd be, he'd either, he'd have to choose for this day who he's going
1:18:28
to serve, either keep serving himself in his flesh like he is or put his faith in Jesus.
1:18:33
But even he is on his bit of a, he's more of like just a conservative journey, more so.
1:18:40
But it's hard, man, it's hard. You know, Mark Driscoll, I don't know how much people would
1:18:45
like me quoting him, but that's a smart dude, man. He says that when it comes to culture,
1:18:50
there's one of three things that you do. I think this is really helpful. He says, some
1:18:54
things you just reject, you just outright reject it. And then there's some things that
1:18:59
you just receive. Like it's just good as is. It's a, it's, it's God's general revelation
1:19:04
to us all. And then there's a section of things that we need to redeem. And so I think instead
1:19:11
of just looking at either of those guys and just putting them in either camp, you, you
1:19:17
dissect the content and say, no, you know, I'm going to reject that. I'm not, you know,
1:19:22
every time Jordan Peterson just talks about how we all evolved to be here, that's, I'm
1:19:27
rejecting that. There's some things I'm just going to receive just like he says it. And
1:19:32
then there's some things in there that are very redeemable. The same thing with Joe
1:19:35
Rogan. I think a part of the draw to Joe Rogan is very few men have actual friends these
1:19:43
days and they feel like, they feel like Joe Rogan's their buddy sitting in the truck just
1:19:50
talking about interesting things. They're kind of, they're kind of, it's like a voyeuristic
1:19:54
friendship with a guy that is way cooler than they will ever be able to be friends with.
1:19:59
And so they just kind of latch on to it. I think that actually, that actually makes
1:20:03
a ton of sense because it's like people will listen to podcasts like, you know, we've had
1:20:07
ours since 2017. And so people talk to me when they meet me over the first time, they
1:20:11
talk to me like they know me because to a degree, they do know me like you've met people that
1:20:16
have maybe watched your sermons for a while, then they move to Jacksonville and now they
1:20:19
go to your church and they meet you for the first time. They feel like they know Joby.
1:20:21
They feel like they know the family kind of a thing. The, the concern that I do have even
1:20:25
with a guy like Joe Rogan is people loved out their ears tickled and they don't like
1:20:29
to check, check the work and they don't like to check the sources. So when a guy like Joe
1:20:33
Rogan will say, Oh man, the Bible, we can't trust that now. Like we don't even know that
1:20:36
Jesus actually really existed. And it's been translated and read translated so many different
1:20:40
times. He has no understanding at all about how the scripture has gotten from the people
1:20:47
that were the scribes that were, you know, basically making copies to how it got to us
1:20:51
today. He's so unbelievably ignorant on that particular subject. Yeah. Yeah. He's quoting
1:20:55
his like freshman community college, English professor. Yeah.
1:21:00
He was also high 23. Right. And so they're a philosophy professor. That's like, Oh, those
1:21:04
types of things. But in one thing, because Driscals come up a few times in this podcast.
1:21:08
So Mark Driscoll right now, guys, if you're listening to this right now, he's got a podcast
1:21:11
for, for his men. And I could look it up later. But if you search Mark Driscoll, I think it's
1:21:15
called like, I think he's called man, I can't remember, but he's got like a podcast just
1:21:19
for his real man. Real man. That's right. And so it's every Wednesday, he has men that
1:21:23
gather at his church there in Arizona and they do some different things. He is in the middle
1:21:27
of a blistering week by week manhood series that he's releasing on that right now. And
1:21:32
so I've not listened to the rise and far follow Mars Hill. I'm not going to spend 20 hours
1:21:37
listening to that. I'm just not really interested in it. I, if you say he's disqualified for
1:21:41
ministry, okay, maybe I can take that. All I know is that I am getting a tremendous amount
1:21:46
of value out of the things that he's saying right now. And he is taking his truths that
1:21:51
he's spitting right back to the scripture. This is not, Hey, I'm taking this because
1:21:55
I read a growth model book or because I got my MBA or because, you know, some Eastern
1:22:00
philosopher said I should probably start saying things a little bit in this way to make it
1:22:04
more manageable for the entire population. So again, don't be so quick to dismiss a guy
1:22:09
like Mark Driscoll because, you know, the people that made the rise and fall of Mars Hill don't
1:22:13
exactly like him. Did you have some of you want to say on Mark?
1:22:15
Yeah, like I, I'm not, I don't know personally, like you were talking about Chandler, I know
1:22:20
personally what's going on there. And so, you know, I can, that, that leads me to make
1:22:25
some decisions and know that that Chandler's going to be just fine. And, and God bless
1:22:33
him for being so humble and doing what his elders are asking him to do. But, but I don't
1:22:38
know all the details of what went on in Mars Hill, even though I know a lot of people there
1:22:42
and stuff. But I will tell you this. So I'm not in a position to say whether he disqualified
1:22:46
himself or not. That's not my call. I don't have anything to do with that. But that dude
1:22:50
is a one of the most gifted Bible teachers in our generation. And if you're going to
1:22:55
cancel people because they did a bad thing, then you better cancel the book of Psalms
1:23:00
because the guy that wrote the most of them was a cancelable guy. And yet God redeemed
1:23:06
him. And God remembers David's story way different than David's story. Like it says about bro,
1:23:14
when you get into like the, the later chapters of Saint Kings and stuff, it'll say, um, and
1:23:19
he followed in the footsteps of David who never sinned against the Lord, says things like that,
1:23:24
was always upright before the Lord. No, he wasn't. That's a redacted history because
1:23:30
of the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, um, God's been making straight lines with
1:23:35
Kirk and sticks for a real long time. And I, I, we got to be, we need to restore brothers.
1:23:42
We need to, we need to love brothers. We need to call out sin where there's sin, particularly
1:23:47
when you have a relationship with somebody, we need to invite people to have accountability
1:23:51
in our lives, right? Um, but it needs to be for the sake of restoration. And we, we've
1:23:56
got to be, there's got to be a lot more grace and, and you can't, you're, you were going
1:24:02
to be the one that misses out if you cancel people just because they've ever done anything
1:24:05
wrong or they said something you didn't like. Because I still listen to him all the time.
1:24:11
Well, and the way that I've described it to people is so like one of the greatest things
1:24:14
that I learned from Robbie Zacharias is that every worldview has to answer four questions.
1:24:19
Origin, meaning morality, destiny, origin. Where do we come from? Meaning why are we
1:24:23
here? Morality? How do we tell the difference between good and evil destiny? Where do we
1:24:26
go when we die? Now he didn't make that up. Like that, but that's, you know, wisdom from
1:24:32
past down from centuries that he just kind of packaged in a different way. So am I supposed
1:24:36
to never say that again in the off chances? Someone's like, Ravi Zacharias, a rapist came
1:24:41
up with that. How dare you say those things? It's like, dude, if you don't believe that
1:24:45
word spoken by sinners can be redeemed, then don't just throw away Psalms. You need to
1:24:49
throw away about two thirds in the New Testament, right? Because those are, those are written
1:24:53
down by some people that did some pretty awful things up to and including murder. And so yeah,
1:24:58
there's a lot of stuff that we can talk about in there, but I know we're kind of wrapping
1:25:00
up towards time. So I'm going to pick one last thing to talk about. I want to talk about
1:25:04
jujitsu. So I did not know this about you the first time that we talked, but you haven't
1:25:08
just trained, you've made it all the way to purple belt. I just got my purple belt in January
1:25:12
of this year. Now we almost right after that had a baby. And so I have not been able to
1:25:16
train nearly as much as I would have wanted to. But as we get into 2023, I'll be back on
1:25:20
the saddle kind of in a more regular training schedule. But I found nothing as an adult
1:25:25
male that has been more impactful for me overall in terms of my development, overall as a man,
1:25:31
you know, church and Bible studies and all that stuff, notwithstanding than jujitsu. Because
1:25:36
if you're trying to cultivate spiritual, mental and physical resilience on a daily basis,
1:25:40
go train jujitsu on a daily basis. If you've got an ego problem, you need to go get wrapped
1:25:43
up by a 16 year old blue belt, then you just get dumped on your head. And here you are
1:25:48
this 40 year old guy with biceps. And it's like, yeah, yeah, it's not going to work out
1:25:51
well for you. Tonight is comp class. And guess what? I'm going to look around. And there's
1:25:55
going to be quite a bit of hammers and very few nails. And I don't know which category
1:25:59
I'm going to be yet in yet whenever I walk in there. But I beg guys to train jujitsu,
1:26:04
you know, we have a relationship with origin. They make the best keys on the planet guys,
1:26:08
using my promo code Kyle to get 10% off to buy your keys and all that stuff. That's all
1:26:11
great. But talk to me about what got you into jujitsu because you had an athletic background.
1:26:16
You could have just stuck with the bench, press and bicep curls until, you know, you
1:26:19
got to an age where it's like, yeah, I used to work out and I used to be strong. And you
1:26:22
don't have to anymore because you have enough gray in your beard. But why go and do that?
1:26:26
Like, because that's, that's a hard sport for a lot of people to get into, brother.
1:26:29
Yeah, it's a, I mean, I, I've been a competitor for a long time. You know, I guess I started
1:26:34
playing sports like five, six years old baseball and play football and high school wrestled
1:26:39
in high school and college. And then, and then was enamored by all the MMA UFC stuff.
1:26:45
So like, I was in college when that came out in the early 90s. And we used to have to go
1:26:49
get like these bootleg VHS is to watch it. It's crazy. And man, there was a guy in my
1:26:55
church that he ran a gym and I led his son to Christ. And he was like, you ever thought
1:26:59
about coming and trained? And I was like, I'd love to, but it's too expensive. And he's
1:27:02
like free membership. Let's go. And it was a Gracie school back then. And I just started
1:27:07
training. And just like you fell in love with it, dude, you have never been so humbled
1:27:11
in your life, especially. So this is even this is like 15 years ago when I first started.
1:27:16
And relatively athletic, you know, lift weights, convention press, relatively a lot. And then
1:27:22
you would just grab on a 50 year old man just look like a piece of dough. And he would absolutely
1:27:29
dominate you. Like, yep. And then you would go the absolute other direction be a 20 year
1:27:35
old, skinny kid, six, three, we had 145 pounds. And if you if you if he tried to fight you
1:27:41
in the parking lot, you would think I'm about to stomp a mud hole in this kid. And that
1:27:45
Joker would tie you up and absolutely embarrass you. I was bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic
1:27:51
and lost every time. And so I loved that. I loved it. I loved it getting handed to me.
1:27:59
And then I also had a wrestling background. So our guy was like, don't wrestle, don't
1:28:03
wrestle, learn jiu-jitsu, learn jiu-jitsu. And then when I got my blue belt, he said
1:28:07
start wrestling again. And so then I was able to kind of put some of that stuff together,
1:28:11
which was helpful. And I actually got my blue belt from hoist. And and in his schools, they
1:28:16
were always like white blue forget about it. Like you're never going to get beyond blue.
1:28:20
So when I finally got a purple, it was it was big. And then my kid JP, my son, who is who
1:28:26
would be 17 next month, he got when he hit like seven, eight years old. And his sport
1:28:32
started to ramp up. My jiu-jitsu started to go way down. But starting about three years
1:28:38
ago, he started training. He's been in three tournaments, one of them all. He still hasn't
1:28:43
gotten scored on yet. So he he honestly gonna he thinks he's gonna be a UFC champion. Like
1:28:50
if you ask him, and somebody's got to be so, you know, might as well be him, I'm hoping
1:28:56
to get to be in English. That's where I'm really hoping so. So now I'm starting to train
1:28:59
again. But it's mostly like to spend time with him. And I'm getting it handed to me
1:29:03
again, bro.
1:29:04
Hey, I tried to tell people all the time I've talked to a lot of guys that started training
1:29:08
jiu-jitsu in their 40s. I started training whenever I turned 30. And like there are ways
1:29:12
to train where you can take care of yourself and you don't have to go crazy. Like I tap
1:29:16
early, tap off and that applies all the way up to black belt. Because I know a lot of guys
1:29:19
that are black belts now that they were, you know, 10 plus years in before this whole leg
1:29:24
lock revolution came through. And so if they're like, well, I'm a black belt. I'm not gonna
1:29:28
tap to this heel hook. They're gonna go into surgery the next week. And so like, you know,
1:29:32
it's just having that humility. And the other thing about it, Jobe, and I know you would
1:29:35
go sign this is the baddest dudes in the room are always the calmest. They're not the ones
1:29:41
pounding on their chest. They're not the ones getting mad if they get subbed. They're not
1:29:45
the ones slamming the wall and cussing and doing all these different things. They're just relaxed
1:29:50
because they've been beaten so many times and they've gotten to a level to where they
1:29:55
can see the other side and they're like, okay, I know a thing or two. But those are the guys
1:30:00
in the bar. When people start popping off and throwing chairs and bottles, they're just
1:30:03
going to casually walk out. But if you go poking your finger in their chest, they can
1:30:08
handle it.
1:30:09
Bro, and I would much rather roll with a black belt than like a blue belt because it's the
1:30:14
black blue belts are so smooth. And they're even going to let you roll. Like if you if
1:30:19
you do something sweet, they're going to be like, all right, that's cool. Cause they still
1:30:22
know, even though if you just gotten dominant position, you're not going to be there long
1:30:25
because I'm going to take you back again. But it's like, like you can really get better.
1:30:30
You know, if I wrestle with an aggro blue belt, it's just a lot of like, and it's like riding
1:30:35
a bucket Bronco, you know, it's kind of all over the place. And one of my favorite things
1:30:39
about it is it's like, it's one of the few sports, one of the few like fighting sports
1:30:45
that you can go full out on a Tuesday night and go to work the next day. You can't do
1:30:51
that in Muita. You have to go to hospital. If you get kicked in the jaw, you're dead,
1:30:57
man. So you can go 100% and then just like you're saying, just tap and, you know, play
1:31:03
nice and go to work the next day and you'll get a little, get a little mat burn on your
1:31:06
face. But that's all right. And I mean, you're exactly right. Like you should train striking.
1:31:10
You should train Western boxing and you should train Muay Thai and kickboxing and all those
1:31:13
different things. But if you go full bore, that means you're sparring. That means you're
1:31:16
taking shots of the head. There's basically no two ways around it. But maybe even to kind
1:31:21
of wrap up here with the Jordan Peterson thing, one of his 12 rules, I think it was in the
1:31:24
first rules book is compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not to who someone else
1:31:28
is today. And one of the biggest lessons I've ever gotten my jujitsu life, Tyler Murrow,
1:31:33
who is, you know, basically our dominant champion. He was a brown belt. I be JJF world champion.
1:31:37
He's one of the greatest jujitsu guys that that I've ever rolled with, you know, because
1:31:41
I have rolled with Andre Galval. So I kind of have to put him there. But you know, I've
1:31:44
rolled with this human being more than I've rolled with anyone else on the planet. So this
1:31:47
was whenever I would I'd either just gotten my blue belt or is right before blue belt
1:31:51
or something. So it was comp class. So right. It's two hours of looking around, only seeing
1:31:55
hammers and you're like, Oh, well, I guess I'm the nail. So it's two hours of just eating
1:31:59
it just over and over and over tapping constantly. You're getting frustrated. And I'm so competitive.
1:32:04
I'm so ego. So I go into the locker room and I'm brooding, right? I'm just like, man,
1:32:08
I can't, can't freaking believe this. And I don't even know if I should do this anymore.
1:32:12
And Tyler came in real calm, like I've talked about this on my show a bunch, but he came
1:32:17
in real calm, like, and he was like, Hey, you okay? And I'm like, Oh man, it's frustrating
1:32:22
practice. And I got tapped a whole bunch. And he goes, Hey, Kyle, what would you have
1:32:26
done to the Kyle from six months ago if you were to roll with him? And I'm like, Oh my
1:32:31
gosh, I would kill that guy. And then he's like, then shut up. He's like, you've gotten
1:32:36
a lot better better in the last six months. But so of all of we, like we're all your teammates,
1:32:41
right? And so it's like, that's just what it's going to be. You're a white belt right
1:32:44
now, or you're just a blue belt right now. But if you keep training, if you keep coming
1:32:48
and paying your dues, one day you're going to be the guy walking into the to the locker
1:32:52
room. And there's that athletic wrestler white belt with one stripe on his belt. That's,
1:32:56
you know, thinking about quitting and you're just like, dude, just don't quit tap early,
1:32:59
tap often and keep coming and taking your medicine because it's good for you. All right.
1:33:03
Can I play preacher real quick? Let's go. That was a really, really great illustration
1:33:07
of progressive sanctification. Because oftentimes, man, we have a day in your hands in your head
1:33:14
at the end of the night. And you're like, man, I suck. I cannot believe me. How did I do that
1:33:19
thing again? Look at that again. Say that again. Oh, and maybe the spirit of God, like
1:33:25
your coach could come in and tap you on the shoulder and be like, all right, have you,
1:33:29
have you taken steps to follow me since a year ago? I know you stumble. I know you tap.
1:33:34
I know you get choked out sometimes. But are you still moving in the right direction? Okay,
1:33:38
well, then get your head up because I am confident of this that he who began a good work and
1:33:43
you will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus. So don't quit. Keep fighting,
1:33:49
keep progressing. That's awesome. That's exactly what discipleship is. And I cannot think of
1:33:54
a better place to leave this conversation. We'll certainly have you back on you got some books
1:33:57
coming out next year. And when you got more stuff going on, so we'll make sure we get you
1:34:00
back on here. But for now, that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off
1:34:03
your chest? Yeah, man, keep doing what you're doing. And I need, I need you to think about
1:34:08
pray about ways to use this platform to encourage all, especially the men that listen to find
1:34:16
a good Bible teaching church to be a part of, not just be critical of. And if there are
1:34:22
changes that need to be made because no church is perfect, man, maybe that happens from the
1:34:26
inside as you as you serve and lead as opposed to from the outside throwing rocks. Roger that
1:34:31
you got it. Jobe Martin, thank you for coming back on Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. Thanks
1:34:35
for there you go guys. I hope you enjoyed the return appearance of Jobe Martin on our show.
1:34:40
But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life
1:34:43
for Mission is equipping men to pushback darkness with content that for just spiritual, mental
1:34:46
and physical resilience. And just a reminder, do not forget to go support the sponsor of
1:34:50
today's show Casey cattle company. Go to kc cattle company dot com. That's kc cattle company
1:34:54
dot com. Use the promo code Kyle to get 15% off your order. Again, that promo code is
1:34:58
just my first name Kyle KYLE for 15% off your order at kc cattle company dot com. So the
1:35:03
links I've got for you today, I've got a link to if the tomb is empty. That is the book that
1:35:06
we talked about on episode 307. We didn't talk about it much here, but obviously when
1:35:10
we have one next year to talk about his next book, you're going to make sure that you have
1:35:13
read that one. I've got a link to the church of 1122 website. So again, guys, if you're
1:35:16
wanting to support the stuff that they're doing there, especially with all the stuff
1:35:19
that Jobe talked about, that's one way that you can do that. And then I've also got a link
1:35:21
to Jobe's Instagram. All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to the show. We do appreciate
1:35:25
it. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five
1:35:28
star view. If you want to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, shoot me an
1:35:31
email to info@undaunted.life. That's i N F O at Undaunted Life. Follow us on Instagram
1:35:37
and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else, including how
1:35:39
to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go to www.undaunted.life and
1:35:44
as always, we want to thank the band August Burns Red for allowing us to use their music
1:35:48
for our content. The music on this podcast is our song, cutting the tides, which is off
1:35:51
their 10th anniversary re recording of their album leveler. The links are in the description.
1:35:56
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual
1:36:02
mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:36:32
[Music]