JOBY MARTIN | Anything is Possible (Ep. 444)

0:00 This is Undaunted Life. A man's podcast. I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Let's get into

0:23 it. All right, guys, today we got another special return guest of the podcast. His name

0:27 is Jovie Martin. And if it looks like I'm in a good mood, and if you can feel the

0:31 pep in my voice, it's because I just love talking to this guy. I always have a good

0:34 time when we talk with him. And most of the time when we talk, we don't record it. But

0:37 this is the third time he's been on the show where we have actually recorded. So he has

0:41 been on episodes three, seven and three 71. But we have him back on here today to talk

0:46 about his very new book. It is out now. And it is called, and I'm sorry, I was about to

0:50 give you the title of his own book, but anything is possible, how nine miracles of Jesus reveal

0:55 God's love for you. So this book is a follow-up book to last year's book. If the tomb is empty,

1:01 why the resurrection means anything is possible. So you might remember that name because we've

1:05 added it to our 100 books every modern Christian mansion read list. It was also one of our best

1:10 books of the year for last year. But if you don't know who Joe B. Martin is, let's back

1:13 up all the way to the very beginning. He is the founder and lead pastor of the church

1:16 of 1122 and Jacksonville, Florida. He's also a speaker. And as you know, this he's also

1:21 an author. And he also hosts the deep in with pastor Joe B. Martin podcast. But the thing

1:25 about this, this episode is yes, he's my buddy. And so if we seem chummy throughout this is

1:30 because this has become a good friend of mine over the last, you know, couple of years,

1:33 we've really enjoyed getting to know each other and getting to know each other's ministries

1:36 and supporting those ministries in different ways. But we basically go right out of the

1:40 gate and we spend 95% of the talk, you know, talking about the new book, anything is possible.

1:45 But the thing about it is through that discussion, we're going to not just talk about the book.

1:49 We're going to talk about, you know, what does it actually mean to be saved? What does

1:52 that mean? And so we really dive in to the election pool and, you know, free will versus

1:57 determinism and all those different things. We talk about the importance of Israel. We

2:01 talked about, you know, skepticism in certain Christians. We talk about, oh, gosh, I'm

2:06 trying to think of everything because it was just such a great conversation that went all

2:08 these different areas. But just what the church is actually for? Or is it for saved people?

2:13 Is it for Christians? Or is it for non-Christians? Should we be secret sensitive? What about

2:17 this new thing that we have with the bystander effect? And why are so many Christians getting

2:21 caught up just watching to pray things happen to people of God without trying to intercede?

2:27 And then we get in towards the end, we start talking a little bit about, you know, some

2:30 of the stuff that's gone on with Andy Stanley and a lot of pastors, a lot of prominent pastors

2:34 not saying anything about homosexuality, basically ignoring sin. I really enjoyed our discussion

2:38 about that. And then we also get into critical race theory. And now there's a lot of prominent

2:41 pastors that are talking about critical race theory. And they're saying, Oh, it's just

2:44 a lens through which we can understand the plight of people of color in the country. And

2:48 no, you know, certainly, you know, Karl Marx was a satanic piece of garbage. But sure, let's

2:52 just go ahead and, you know, read his words from the pulpit. We get into all that. But

2:56 every time he comes on this show, you guys love it. And I really, really enjoy it. But

3:01 I got to tell you, I think this is the best one of the three. So this is kind of like

3:04 I'm trying to think of like the best movie trilogy. Okay, let's go. Let's go John Wick.

3:07 All right. So the John Wick new movies out, it's probably going to be out by the time

3:10 this episode airs or something like that. But those first three films, you just can't go

3:14 wrong, right? But everyone's got their favorite. There are people that like, like I like John

3:19 Wick three more than I like the other two. But if any one of them are on, I'm going to

3:22 watch it. And so that's what I feel like three conversations with Joby have been. They're

3:25 all amazing. I personally have taken a shine to this latest one. But guys, I've peped it

3:30 up enough. But here it is. I'm not going to keep in front of you any longer. So without

3:33 further ado, let's get into it.

3:36 Joby Martin, welcome back to Undaunted Life Man's podcast. What's up, buddy? How are you?

3:40 I see showing off the green hat. I gotta say, I really, really appreciate it because there

3:46 are people that are mad at me right now that they didn't get their hands on one of those.

3:49 But that was like the first one off the press. I sent it out to you. So I was just, I didn't

3:53 know the post office random Jacksonville, Florida. That's that's pretty good. It does. And it

3:58 is as advertised. You're super bragging on it. And it's really good. I will say, I will

4:03 say this as well. You sent me a picture like the day after you got that hat. And I was

4:08 making fun. I was like, Hey, I made it to be like a hunting hat, like an early season

4:12 hunting hat. And you're like, yeah, I've already killed a gator and a hog wearing this hat.

4:16 And so it's like you have officially shed blood wearing that hat, which I can very much

4:20 so appreciate. But man, we got a lot of ground to cover today. I'm really excited to chat

4:24 with you about your new book, but I don't want to take for granted that anybody listening

4:28 to this like knows you because you've been on the show twice for. But if they miss those

4:31 episodes, how about you give us a quick overview? Who the heck are you? Bring us up to speed?

4:36 What is it that you do? Man, I'm a nobody that wants to tell everybody about the somebody

4:41 that wants to save them all. Right? Yeah, I passed a church here in Jacksonville, Florida.

4:46 We planted in 2012. It's called the church of 1122. That's it, man. I've spent my life

4:53 preaching and making disciples and have decided to write a couple of books to further that

4:58 endeavor along. Well, that's what we're going to talk about today. So guys, if you're listening

5:02 this on time, this book is out now. It is called anything is possible, how nine miracles

5:07 of Jesus reveal God's love for you. But this is actually a follow up book to your first

5:12 book, which is if the tomb is empty, which was on our book list of the 100 books every

5:17 modern Christian man should read list. We handed out some awards for that book last year on

5:21 our best books of the of the year award thing. But I mean, these I was kind of, you know,

5:25 making funny off air. I was like, this could have just been one really long book, but these

5:28 definitely work kind of lockstep with one another. So tell me how the new book, anything

5:34 is possible. Like tell me about it just in general, how does it attach to the last book?

5:38 You know, go wherever you want to go with it and then we'll dig in. Yeah, um, we study

5:42 nine different miracles throughout the New Testament that reveal God's heart and God's

5:47 love for you. And even though I am a skeptic by nature for sure and probably even by nurture,

5:54 the reason that you can believe in the miraculous is not because you put in your faith in your

5:59 circumstances. The reason that you can believe in the miraculous is because the greatest miracle

6:03 that has ever happened has already happened that Jesus walked out of the tomb that that

6:08 God breathed new life into his dead son. And if he can do that, if he didn't withhold his

6:13 old son, then what would he withhold from us? Now there, there is a chapter in there on,

6:19 you know, what do you do when you don't get your miracle? And there's a chapter on how

6:22 should we rightly respond with a heart of gratitude to the miracle, working God. But the whole

6:27 point is not the miracles. The whole point, in fact, in the gospel of John, John doesn't

6:32 even call him miracles. He calls him signs because signs point to something bigger. All

6:36 I want to do in this book is just point people to a relationship with Jesus Christ.

6:41 And so we're going to dig in quite a bit, but you mentioned something there that you talked

6:45 about in the prologue, which is you talk about the fact that Jesus's disciples died for what

6:51 they claim that they saw, which is the resurrection, not what they claim to believe or something

6:55 that they saw written down on a tablet. But for something that they saw, and we see no

7:00 evidence from any of the even secular historians from the first, second, third century of these

7:06 these people will stick to the first century. These eyewitnesses of the risen king, reneging

7:11 on that later and saying, no, no, no, no, just kidding. Please don't sacrifice me and

7:15 throw me to the lions or anything like that. But how if you are skeptical person by nature,

7:20 which you are in which I am, how that's kind of an interesting thing. So you do talk about

7:24 that in the prologue, but also in the prologue, you talk about spending time in Israel. And

7:28 so as far as I understand it, you just got back from Israel, not that long ago, you've

7:31 gone there several times. But the way that you describe Israel in the prologue, it actually

7:36 makes you feel like you're there, like, you know, sniffing in the exhaust from all the

7:39 different, you know, tour buses and things like that. But I guess why is it so important

7:44 for Christians to actually go to Israel? Because it's on my list. It's not a place that I've

7:47 been yet. But some Christians are kind of dismissive. They're like, ah, you know, if

7:50 I was Jewish, I would go to Israel. But it seems to be like that's the place you want

7:54 to go. It's not like Mecca for, for Muslims necessarily, but it is a place that Christians

7:59 should probably pilgrimage to at some point. Yeah.

8:01 Yeah, there's a lot of benefits. I mean, it's not a requirement, like you said, like of

8:05 other religions that are required to go to some place. I know we use the phrase the holy

8:09 land and holy means set apart. And so for sure, the nation of Israel is set apart in

8:15 our in God's redemptive history and plays a significant role in his return. Like that's

8:20 where his feet touched down on the Mount of Olives when he returns. But it is just simply

8:26 a means to an end. And the end is to deepen your relationship with Jesus Christ. For me

8:30 as a Bible teacher, the reason I like to go is it just, it just makes my Bible go from

8:36 black and white to color. Like when you are on the boat on the sea of Galilee. And the

8:41 Bible says that he goes from here to there and you can see where he's going from. Or when

8:47 it talks about sending his disciples up to Bethany to get a donkey for, for the, the last

8:55 week of his life. And you can see the trail that he would have ridden down and the place

8:59 probably where he stopped. It looks over the wall of Jerusalem and weeps for his people

9:05 and says, Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, I weep for you like a, like a mother hen would love

9:10 to gather her chicks under her wings. I mean, it just helps like crazy to see these places.

9:16 When you go down to the garden of Gethsemane and you see that this place was literally

9:20 a place of crushing and that it was the place at the bottom of the Mount of Olives where

9:24 they crushed the olives to make olive oil. And it was the beginning of the crushing that

9:29 Jesus was about to go through. And the place that matters more than anything else is when

9:34 you can go to the empty tomb and see the yes, it is still empty. And you see the details

9:41 of the scripture in eyewitness with your very own eyes, you can see what Peter or what John

9:49 was saying when Peter kneels down at the empty tomb and he peeks in and he can see into the

9:56 empty tomb. It just, it does the heart of the believer really, really well to go to that

10:02 place and see it with your very own eyes.

10:04 So it's certainly something that I wish that, that I say I wish I could do it. You can plan

10:08 and do just about anything, but it's something that my wife and I, we used to travel internationally

10:12 every other year kind of a thing. And we haven't done that in a while, having kids and, you

10:16 know, growing our businesses and different things like that. But it's certainly on our

10:18 list. And I would echo the sentiments that I've heard from you from other people that

10:21 have gone and said the same thing. So let's take a little bit more into the book itself.

10:26 So I want to skip to chapter two. And chapter two is called the paralytic. Do you believe

10:30 Jesus will carry you? So I'm going to read a quote from that chapter here. I love this

10:34 picture. One sick man carried by four good friends. It begs the question, do you have

10:39 friends like that friends you can count on to carry you to Jesus. Now for the majority

10:43 of this chapter, I'm going to ask you, are you that kind of friend? But right now I want

10:47 to flip the mirror, take a second and answer that question. Yes or no, write your answer

10:53 in the margin better yet, write their names. So a couple of paragraphs later, actually,

10:58 Joby, you actually call these people. I love this. Lower you through the roof friends.

11:02 And so I love that. I mean, I call them three AM friends, right? So a lot of guys have six

11:06 PM friends where you can call them until about six PM. And then after that, they're not really

11:11 available to help you move a fridge or bury a body. But it's those guys at three AM that

11:15 you can call, you know, they're going to answer and you know, they're grabbing their pistol

11:18 in a shovel because they assume you're either about to bury a body or you need to bury one

11:22 now. And so it's those types of guys. But talk to me a little bit about that because most

11:27 guys lament that they don't have friends like that anymore, right? Like like their fraternity

11:32 brothers are like their guys from football two days or their guys, you know, from the

11:36 academy or their guys from the military. But then they don't do anything about it now.

11:40 It's like, bro, you're 40, you're 50, you're 60. Like I get it. You had a lot of good friends

11:45 when you're a teenager, but like being adult, like get some dudes around you that you can

11:49 go to war with. Why do guys not focus on that anymore?

11:52 Well, there's a lot. And I think there's a big difference between your fraternity brothers

11:56 and your lower youth through the roof friends because these four friends did whatever it

12:02 took to bring this brother who was hurting to Jesus. So I'm not just talking about people

12:06 that will go to war with you unless we're talking about the kind of war that Paul is

12:10 talking about in Ephesians chapter six, right? That our battle is not against flesh and

12:13 blood. Yeah. And man, here's the problem. And men are terrible at this is that we just

12:20 settle for buddies. You got golf buddies and hunting buddies and jiu-jitsu buddies and

12:23 drinking buddies. And that's fine, man. It's fine to have some buddies. But if you limit

12:28 yourself to just buddies, listen, good gospel brotherhood is like a retirement account.

12:34 If you wait until you need it to get it, it is way too late. Yeah. And so this is just

12:40 how the Lord has wired us, man. Because we are image bearers of God and God is a triune

12:46 God, one God in three persons in a perfect love relationship, mutually submitted to one

12:51 or another. These are the kinds of relationships that we are to have. And so I'm just saying

12:56 it's worth it. And in fact, if you'll just get focused on being one of the four corner

13:01 friends, then you will create those kinds of friends that if you ever find yourself on

13:06 the mat, they will tote you to Jesus.

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13:38 And I think that that's very important because whenever I talk about the foxhole, which is

13:42 basically the way that I communicate about it, I talk to guys that are so concerned that

13:46 they don't have a foxhole. And I'm like, well, are you a foxhole guy? Because here you are

13:49 lamenting that you don't have any three and friends, but you don't answer your phone

13:52 after six. Like you're not the guy. You're always the guy that's busy and unavailable

13:57 when people need to build a fence or to move. And you got a truck, but you don't let anyone

14:01 use it, right? And you don't even use it. And so it's kind of one of those those situations

14:04 as well. Also in chapter two, Joby, you talk about the church. And so a short quote from

14:09 that chapter, you just say, our job in the church is to equip you. Okay. So that's what

14:14 you do. That's what you said from the jump whenever you're basically introducing yourself

14:17 to our audience, for anyone that wasn't familiar with you. But it begs the question, and I've

14:21 really been thinking about this question even over the last several weeks, what slash who

14:26 is the church for? Because when I read through scripture, it seems like the church is there

14:32 to equip the saints that the church is for Christians, like it's to set them up to get

14:38 them ready to go and to send them out into the world. But I, it's, it's, I'm curious

14:43 how that jives with the seeker sensitive model, which basically says, yeah, everyone, that's

14:48 a Christian. We don't really care about you guys. We're here, the music, the preaching,

14:51 the everything we do, the programs are for the lost folks. We don't really care about

14:56 equipping y'all as much. So that's the thing that I feel like there's, there's this dissonance

15:01 even for people that regardless of the church they go to, they're like, what is this here

15:05 for? Like who is this for? So help me out with that a little bit.

15:09 It's a easy answer, man. The church is not for the loss. The church is not for the save.

15:13 The church is for God. The church exists to glorify God. He is the audience. When you

15:18 gather together, you're making much of him. So then the question is, so then God, how

15:24 do we honor you? How do we worship you? How do we bless and minister to you? Well, does

15:28 God love safe? Does God love lost people? For sure. So, I mean, he tells us in the Great

15:35 Commission, the whole point is to go and make disciples of everywhere. And nobody reads

15:39 that verse and thinks it means go find people that already know Jesus and tell them more

15:43 things about Jesus. Everybody understands that verse, go tell lost people about the

15:48 gospel so that they would come into the family. And does God love sent people? Yes. And so

15:54 we, we simultaneously build up the body so that they can go reach the lost and accomplish

16:00 the Great Commission. It's not either or it's both and. So at 1122, we are a movement for

16:07 all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And, and, and those two

16:13 things are always simultaneous. They're, they are not in opposition of one another. So let

16:18 me ask you this because I've talked to several people that they go to a more seeker sensitive

16:23 church and maybe they've gone there for a while. It's really comfortable. They like the music.

16:27 They like the preaching. It's funny or whatever, but they've gotten to a point where they're

16:30 like, I'm, I'm not being discipled and it's not because you, you know the difference when

16:34 someone's like being real selfish, be like, well, the church isn't meeting my needs.

16:37 It doesn't sound real whiny like that. It's like people that are like, like, I feel like

16:42 I've been eating the same meal for years now. And, and I'm looking for that, that heavier

16:47 meats, you know, I'm looking for the elk steak and I've been eating ramen noodles for all

16:50 these years. So I guess what would you say to someone that goes to a church like that

16:54 that they're like, look, you know, this is what it is like the, our styles, our style

16:59 are our preaching is our preaching. We're not going to do extra clashes. We're not going

17:02 to do Sunday school. We're not going to encourage, you know, home groups with different materials.

17:06 Like what would you, what would you say to them? What are they to do?

17:09 I don't know the church that doesn't, that doesn't offer like a next step beyond Sunday

17:13 morning. So if there are some of those, then, you know, maybe they are, but I'm just not

17:17 aware of them. So my question, I would always try to hold up the mirror before I try to

17:22 hold up the binoculars, you know, and see what everybody else is doing wrong. My friend,

17:25 like if the individual was saying that, I would say, well, just, just help me understand

17:29 what steps of obedience are you taking and tell me what disciples are you making because

17:35 the, the time that the disciples always get in trouble, if you just do a, if you just do

17:40 a quick study of the four gospels, they always got in trouble when they got focused on them

17:45 and what they wanted or what they weren't getting or even what they didn't understand.

17:50 Jesus always high five them when they got really busy about helping other people discover

17:55 their relationship with Jesus. And so that would be the first place. Now, if you're not

18:02 in a Bible teaching Bible believing church that is centered on the good news of the gospel,

18:07 life, death, resurrection and return of Jesus, then you might be at the wrong church, you

18:12 know? And you are right. There are some churches and I know you know all these churches because

18:17 you call them out by name every week. And they would say that their job isn't to make

18:23 disciples, but it's just to reach people. I don't think that is a healthy New Testament

18:29 view of who the church is. I think we're supposed to help people discover and deepen

18:35 and demonstrate what it looks like to be in a right relationship with Christ.

18:38 Yeah. And what's, what's interesting, we've had a lot of conversations off air. That's

18:42 one of the reasons why I'm way more precise and you help me be more precise in my language

18:46 about churches because what people were hearing me say is if your church has a big parking

18:50 lot, they're not serving Jesus. And I was like, Oh, no, that's that's technically what

18:54 I've been saying for months is not what I meant. So, and guys, we're going to move

18:57 on to chapter three here. But the book is in the show notes and we're barely scratching

19:01 the surface. I mean, we're going to go deep in this interview about a lot of the content

19:03 of the book. But there is so much there. It is a very, very dense book for only being

19:07 about a 250 pages or so. But chapter three is called healing at the pull of a Bethesda.

19:13 Do you believe Jesus can heal you? Now you talk about some different healings in this

19:17 book. And there's obviously there's a there's a great story at the very, very end of the

19:20 book that will let people read for themselves. But something I wrote in the margins, Joey,

19:25 while I was reading through that chapter is, but what if he doesn't? And I don't mean

19:30 that in the Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, like even if he doesn't, we're still going

19:33 to worship them all the same and not not in that sense. But I didn't grow up in church,

19:39 but I grew up in Oklahoma. So I was a Christian by dent of birth, right? You know, because

19:42 I was born on that red clay. And so it's kind of that it's almost like that country

19:46 music Christianity towards like you can talk about God and man upstairs and how you're,

19:51 you're not too good at praying. But here's, here's what you're going to offer. The problem

19:55 is is when your brother gets cancer and you pray for him, family, praise for him. He taken

20:00 a church. They do a prayer meeting. They put hands on everyone's crying. It's not everywhere.

20:04 And they pray for your brother. He dies of cancer the next day. What I always feel like

20:09 Joby is Christians have this cop out to where it's like we're going to pray and we're going

20:14 to pray and God's going to make a move. But then if he doesn't or if the, the prayer is

20:18 answered with a no, Christians just say, well, yeah, but I guess that just wasn't God's will.

20:24 And that always struck me as disingenuous. And even when I became a Christian, it still

20:29 struck me as disingenuous because God is not our cosmic genie that we ask him for things

20:34 so we get it no matter what I'm people, people got to die at some point, like whether it's

20:38 your grandma or it's your best friend, everyone's going to die at some point. But I know there

20:42 are a lot of Christians to struggle with that. And to be honest, I struggle with that too.

20:46 And it affects how I pray if I'm being honest because it's like, I pray like, all right,

20:51 God, do whatever you're going to do. Like, you know what I want? Like, I would prefer

20:54 my friend not to die, please. But if he does, I guess that was meant to be, you know what

20:59 I'm saying?

21:00 Yeah, it's why I wrote chapter four. It's right after the feeding of the 5,000 and Jesus

21:06 says this crazy thing. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no part with

21:10 me. And so people, people got an answer that they didn't want. So they start to leave.

21:16 I mean, think about this. Can you imagine they're sitting there taking notes and they're like,

21:20 what did he say? Eat, eat my fish because we, we can't even eat pork. Surely we can't

21:24 eat the profit, right? And then he doubles down on it, triples down on it. He just won't

21:29 quit talking about eating my flesh and drinking my blood. And then everybody leaves. And then

21:36 he looks at Peter and says, do you want to leave too? And the reason he asked him is

21:41 because he wants to leave. And here's, here's ultimately how easy it would have been. Jesus

21:47 could just step in in that second and say, hold on, hold on. Wait, everybody sit down.

21:51 I don't mean you actually have to take a bite out of my forearm. What I'm, I'm talking about

21:56 the gospel. I'm talking about this thing we're going to, I'm going to institute a few chapters

21:59 called communion, which is a picture or an illustration of the gospel. And unless you

22:05 surrender your life to the lordship of Christ, because I dial on the cross for you and you

22:09 believe it counted for you, unless you do that, you have no part with me. However, he

22:13 explains nothing and he could explain it that quickly. And then he says, so Peter, without

22:20 explanation, do you want to leave too? Peter's answer is what helps me get through it. When

22:25 I'm writing this book, my best friend just died on a hunting trip with me. A guy led

22:31 to Christ, baptized him on a mission trip. He's a general contractor. He literally builds

22:36 all of our churches, bro. There's a long list of people I think the Lord should take out.

22:41 Bradley wasn't one of them. I mean, I'm sitting in my office right now. I still keep a picture

22:46 of him right there, bro. This is my dude, man. You know, like in, in fact, he was one of my

22:52 carriers. He was one of the four corner guys. And I'm just like, Lord, I don't get it. And

23:01 I think the people in a real relationship with the Lord, or they know they can bring

23:06 their R rated prayers. Like how about this? How about David praise my God, my God? Why

23:12 have you forsaken me? Way before Jesus quotes it on the cross, David prays it in Psalm 22

23:18 and the spirit of God's like, that's good, David, write that down. We're going to keep

23:21 that one in the book forever. You ever feel like that God? How long will you ignore me?

23:27 I think that's Psalm 13, maybe. So God can handle those prayers, but it's Peter's answer

23:32 that gets us through Jesus says, do you want to leave too? And he goes to whom shall we

23:37 go? You're the only one that offers eternal life. So he's like, I don't know why you would

23:43 do the this sermon on blood and flesh and all that. And just like, I don't know why you

23:49 would take my best friend home who had a lot of life left in him and was just trying to

23:53 make disciples with his life. But here's what I do know. You're the only one that offers

23:57 eternal life. And so the opposite of fate is not doubt. If you've got doubt, cool, man.

24:03 Pick up your doubts, pick it up your unanswered questions and just follow after Jesus knowing

24:09 that because of the gospel, he is the one that offers eternal life. And then that's

24:13 how you pray. When I pray, I don't try to give God an help, man. I mean, I'm not, I'm

24:19 not being like, Lord, just I will be done. No, I mean, you said you have not because you

24:23 asked not the place we get that prayer is in the garden of Gethsemane where Jesus says

24:27 that I will be done. Bro, he prays it three times. You ever pray something and don't get

24:32 the answer you won't? That's what Jesus does. He goes, I'm going to come back. Let me just

24:35 ask one more time. Then he comes back again. Let me just check one more time. If there

24:40 be any other way, let this cup pass from me. So man, I'm asking God for miracles. I'm asking

24:45 God to heal people. I'm asking God to save people and not just like, Lord, I know that

24:50 you have elected some and not others therefore, no, man, that's not my prayer. My prayer is

24:55 God. I know that your will and desires that all would come to faith in you. And so, but

25:00 we live in a broken world, man. And I think they're just like I can explain John chapter

25:05 six and what Jesus meant with eat my flesh and drink my blood takes about two seconds.

25:10 All says right now we see dimly one day we will see clearly. So when we get there, we'll

25:15 be like, Oh, okay, I get it. But until then, like a kid just wearing out his father, I'm

25:21 going to ask and ask and ask and ask, knowing that God can believing that God will and then

25:26 even if he doesn't, I'm still going to follow him because where else am I going to go?

25:30 When I think the other thing about that is if you look at, you know, a pie chart, I've

25:33 seen this used before, you know, against atheists, but when people are like, yeah, God certainly

25:38 doesn't exist. And then someone will ask them, well, what percentage of all of the information

25:43 in the universe do you know? And the person will be like, I, you know, less than 1%. And

25:47 so they'll get a pie chart and they'll be like one little sliver. And it's like, that's

25:50 what you know. And then there's all this other information and you're telling me God can't

25:54 exist there. The same applies to Christians. And so when a Christian, if you're in that

25:58 moment and your best friend dies when he wasn't supposed to, according to you, or according

26:02 to anyone, you can look at that and say, this is how much I know, like, I know so little

26:07 that I can't find a fine tip marker, like thin enough to, to represent the line of stuff

26:12 that I know about things. But God knows all of that. So for me to sit here and assume that

26:17 doesn't mean not don't be sad. That doesn't mean don't cry. And you go into that in the

26:20 book. But like that, that just means, look, there's something else happening here that

26:26 Jesus or that God is going to redeem for his purposes because we live in a post Genesis

26:31 three world where everything is broken. And we got tornadoes coming after us and all kinds

26:34 of stuff. Like I get it, but that's kind of one of those things that I look at as well.

26:38 Like when I do get in one of those places, Joby, where it's like, okay, I remember that

26:42 little bitty sliver of what I know. And I think I'm a smart guy. But at the same time,

26:47 it's like you ultimately don't know anything. But also in chapter three, we'll get to chapter

26:52 four in a second, because you do make some great points there that is related to this.

26:56 But there's a quote from chapter three I want to read here. Oftentimes the reason that Christians

26:59 are getting their butts kicked spiritually is because they're not ready for the fight.

27:04 And then you talk a little bit about Alexander Solzhenitsyn and the Gulag archipelago. And

27:08 then you actually directly quote Solzhenitsyn and his quote is this, a person who is not

27:12 inwardly prepared for the violence committed against them is always weaker than the one

27:18 committing the violence. And then you you in that with be prepared. So when you talk about

27:23 okay, be prepared for what? And then I what is it that Christians are not doing to get

27:28 themselves ready to go spiritually for the fight?

27:31 Well, when I first read that, my first thought was spiritual warfare. I mean, man, the enemy

27:37 has already got you right where he wants to. If you don't even think he exists, or the

27:42 demonic is a reality, or that he only wants to steal, kill, and destroy. I was actually

27:47 reading that book because I'm a Peterson band just like you already talks about it all the

27:51 time. And I was reading it on a hunting trip. And I've always thought it. I'm a big hunter.

27:58 I mean, if you're watching, you see a bear behind me that shot. All right. So I love

28:01 hunt. I've always thought it a little bit ironic that we call it a sport, because only

28:06 half of us that are playing realized that the game has started. Right. Right. So the

28:10 deer does not know that the game is owned. Right. So a part of the reason you're so successful

28:16 is because he don't even know you're trying to kill it. Yeah. That sounds like almost every

28:20 evangelical Christian I know when it comes to the enemy who only wants to steal, kill,

28:27 and destroy. One of the things that you love to talk about is about how the enemy is about

28:33 about like public school systems today, right? How many Christian parents have been completely

28:38 caught off guard because they had apparently they haven't read their Bibles and saw that

28:43 oftentimes what the enemy wants to do is take out an entire generation of boys. He did it

28:48 with Moses. He did it with Jesus. He's trying to do it with ours. Yeah, read Exodus two,

28:53 like that's what Pharaoh wanted to do. If it weren't for the midwives, that entire story

28:57 is different, but go ahead. Right. And Luke two and Matthew two. Right. So he did it over

29:01 and over and over. And so if you, I love, I love that quote, because if you come into

29:08 the ring, not realizing a fight is about to happen, you're going to lose. And what Stokes

29:13 Initiative was talking about specifically is that the Russian police were picking people

29:18 off of the street and the police had predetermined, we're going to have to be violent to get them

29:23 in the car. And the person being arrested did not realize there was going to be a fight

29:27 that day. How many believers wake up every day and don't realize you're in a fight?

29:32 That's why you're getting your tail handed to you. I think the other thing that is important

29:36 as well, because we talk about this in terms of preparedness. Like I literally saw a video

29:39 yesterday, it was a social experiment, but they had a little, a little boy walking down

29:43 the street in New York or Boston or something like that. He's probably seven. And then this

29:46 man would run in from the side, grab the boy and grab him by his mouth and then run into

29:51 an alleyway because they want to see how people would react. And everyone was on their phones.

29:57 Now there was one guy that was kind of on his phone. Semi distracted. He saw what happened.

30:02 He immediately looked concerned and then did nothing. Right. So go ahead. I got a story.

30:08 This happened Monday. We're recording this on Thursday. This happened on Monday. My son,

30:13 who's a football player, wrestler, weightlifter, athlete, 17 years old. He's going to school.

30:22 He's the first one at the stoplight. Somebody runs the stoplight and T bones this car flips

30:29 it on its side. And he says, and my little girl's in the car with him, you know, they're

30:32 seeing this. The car slides 20, 30 yards. He immediately tells Reagan, you sit right there

30:38 and my boy gets out of the car, runs to the car, flipped over. He says they're screaming.

30:42 It sounds like a horror movie. Him and one other grown man, like, wrench the door open.

30:48 He was like, Dad, it was crushed. It wouldn't open, but these ladies were screaming. He

30:53 said, we got the door open. Ladies bleeding. We, we, we unbuckle them all from the seat

30:57 belt. We bring them out. And then he said, I looked around. He's starting to get like

31:01 mad tears in his eyes, right? And he's like, Daddy, I looked around and I'm a kid. I'm

31:06 a 17 year old kid. And I look around and there's grown people all around me. And they just

31:12 have their phones up videoing it. And he said, and I was like, buddy, you can say it. And

31:16 he was like a bunch of, you know what he said. And I was like, you're dang right. You were

31:20 a man. And they were a bunch of sheep. And as I think about it, I'm telling you, people

31:24 roll the church that way. Yeah. Listen, the way I see lost people is just like those people

31:31 caught in that car. And, and there's so many churches that are sitting in that car looking

31:37 at everybody else and looking at a car rat and going, well, you know, somebody else might

31:41 have to do something about that. Cause we, we got plenty to do in our own car, not me,

31:44 man, not me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do whatever it takes, rip the roof off the place, build

31:49 more places, more seats, whatever it takes to help lost people come to Christ and then

31:53 disciple them so that I got, I got a bunch of them like my sons. So when he sees other

31:59 people in need, then he's gonna get out there and do whatever it takes. And listen, dude,

32:04 you just experienced that Kyle. I just listened to you this morning about what God did in

32:09 your heart over this last week. When you shared the gospel and two prisons and a men's thing

32:14 and 40 men came to Christ, right? And so people that want to be real critical of the big church,

32:21 listen, man, what you experienced this weekend, we just been experiencing it for just 10 years,

32:26 52 weekends a year. Well, you end up with a whole bunch of people that way, but this does

32:31 not mean we care about the loss any less today just cause we got big rooms. We just want to,

32:36 just like these four guys, we just want to, if the room's full, we'll tear the roof off

32:41 so that everybody can get to Jesus. There's so much there that I want to comment on, but

32:46 on that last thing that you said, going back to that story, guys, you have to understand

32:50 the architecture of the buildings that they were doing in this day. We read this story

32:54 and we just assume that everyone that lived before 1970 had like a roof made out of straw.

32:59 No, these men were basically pulling off layers of stuff that probably took weeks, if not

33:05 months to build back in the day, they were literally destroying our home. Imagine going

33:10 on your roof or the house that you live in and you and three of your buddies trying

33:14 to get through the top of that building to drop your buddy through. It's similar. It's

33:18 more similar to that than it's dissimilar, but I did an episode years or go ahead, Joby.

33:22 Well, here's the thing. Guess who was uncomfortable with that? The people that already had the

33:25 seats, the people in the front row, like they had the good seats, listening to Jesus all

33:30 on them and there's crap falling down around them. So at our church, we don't mind making

33:35 the people that already have a seat uncomfortable to make room for the people that need a seat.

33:39 Yeah, but I mean, that's another thing throughout the book. You were even talking about the

33:44 paralytic that was healed like, and you talk about, "Oh, roll up your mat and leave."

33:47 You can just read that line and move on with your life. No, he crapped on that mat. He slept

33:51 on that mat having not been bathed for months, if not years at a time. 38 years.

33:56 Yeah, I mean, it was disgusting. It wasn't your yoga mat that your wife just took to class earlier

34:01 today. But also, I did an episode a couple of years ago, Joby, called the modern bystander

34:06 effect. And so the bystander effect is where people will, they get frozen looking at something

34:10 and then they can't respond to help. And I talked about in a modern sense, it's like modern wise,

34:15 we can just pick up our phones and then we can video something happening because there was a

34:19 video taken. I think it was in Philadelphia of a woman that was being raped on a train,

34:23 right? And these people as opposed to interceding in this woman being raped, they pulled out their

34:29 phones to film it. Now, if you're 85 years old and you can barely walk, the police are probably

34:34 going to need video, what happened, pull out your phone sister. But for everybody else,

34:38 that's why I get so frustrated when guys are like, "I want to be known for what I'm for,

34:42 what I'm not what I'm against." And these pacifist Christians, because it's like, look,

34:45 if the Amago days being violated, there's no time for a Bible study, there's no time for a prayer

34:50 circle. It's time for you to put hands on somebody and to protect the sheep. And I do something similar

34:56 happened to me. Driving home from college, I was probably about a year older than your son is now,

35:01 and I see a car on the other side of the highway go up over the bridge and land in a tree. I'm not,

35:07 I'm dead serious. If I'm lying, I'm dying. So I yanked my car over to the side of the road,

35:11 my 87 Buick Skylar, yes, I was a pimp even back in the day. And so I take off running across the

35:16 highway. I'm dying. I'm running in between cars. And by the time I get there, the guy's out of this

35:22 car, he had fallen asleep at the wheel. He was, it was a miracle. He was fine. And I'm looking

35:26 around at all these adults. And this isn't in the, you know, smartphone era. We don't have iPhones

35:30 yet. And I'm like, has anyone called highway patrol? And, you know, just people like adults,

35:35 like 40, 50 year old men just like, I don't really know. And I'm like, okay, here, I'm 18 years old.

35:40 I will grab my phone, DPP, and I will, you know, pound 55. And I'll get somebody here that can get

35:45 this guy's car out of the damn tree. And so it's just, there's so much more that that we can get

35:50 into there. I do want to get back to the book. But there's a lot of great stuff there that the

35:54 guys just really need to take to heart. But your book isn't without levity, right? There's some

35:59 serious stuff that you talk about. But you also get people thinking kind of in a funny way. So

36:03 let's go to chapter four. It's called the feeding of the 5000. Do you believe even when doubt creeps

36:08 in? And I've got a really long question here in a second. But here's my shortest question of the

36:11 day. Here's a quote. Are you willing to look like an idiot for Jesus? Okay, so give us some background.

36:18 Why would you even put that in the book? Are you willing to look like an idiot for Jesus?

36:22 Well, because if you look at this miracle, man, the feeding of the 5000,

36:26 the Jesus didn't feed the 5000. I know it's his power that provided the miracle that happened.

36:32 But Jesus takes the fish, takes the loath, blesses it, and then hands it to the disciples and says,

36:38 you feed them. Imagine if you're one of the disciples, you got like a little and it wasn't

36:44 even a big fish, bro. They're like sardines and a half a piece of bread. And then you turn around.

36:48 And what are you thinking? I mean, you're thinking, well, I got two options. I can say

36:55 face and be like, I don't think I can do this. Or I can risk looking like a fool and do whatever

37:00 he tells me to do, which by the way, same thing in John chapter two, the wedding at Cana. He tells

37:06 them, dip out some of this water that the guys have been washing their hands in for the last four

37:10 days and take it to the master of ceremonies. All right. So if you can't think of a time like maybe

37:16 in the last year, where you were about to do something that on the surface seemed crazy,

37:22 it may be you're not you're not obeying the voice of your shepherd, because God will ask you to do

37:28 some stuff like make that phone call to ask for forgiveness, share your faith. One more time with

37:33 that person that's turned you down 10,000 times or make the, make the crazy decision to raise your

37:39 kids in a place that does tell them it's okay that they can have two dads or two moms or we're all

37:44 just a bunch of accidents. That may seem crazy to the rest of the world. But look, man, I don't

37:50 want normal, you can have normal. Normal in this world is broke, lonely and depressed. You can

37:55 have normal. I want the abundant life that Christ has for us. And so the only way you get that is

37:59 doing what he says. This miracle doesn't happen if the disciples don't do what he says. And the

38:04 miracle did not happen in the heavenlies. It happened in the hands of the disciples. I mean,

38:08 think about it. At some point they, they realized like, Oh my gosh, I give away and give away and

38:13 give away. And I still have more to give away. How was this happening? So what's funny is as

38:18 you're describing that, Joby, and as I was reading in the book, so I'm watching the third season of

38:22 the chosen right now, which all of a sudden I realized that there's like droves of people that

38:26 hate that show. We don't have enough time to get in that today, but I just don't understand

38:29 you people. But it's the part where Jesus is saying, Hey, I got to go away for a little bit.

38:34 So I'm going to send y'all out two by two and you're going to go to all these different places. Oh,

38:37 by the way, I'm going to hand you the keys to my power, essentially. And they're just like,

38:41 whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And they just like, they have no idea what they're going to do. But

38:45 it's like, look, I'm going to do my miracles through you. And again, every time I think about how confused

38:53 I get at reading the Bible, I think you even make this point in the book. It's like, the disciples

38:57 were with Jesus for three years and still didn't get it. You got Thomas that needs to see the hands

39:01 in the holes in the hands and into the wound in the side. Like they can't fathom that Jesus

39:06 came back. It's like, y'all got to see the miracles. So guys, if you're talking to that stick in the

39:11 mud, atheist, that, you know, he says he needs 10 million explanations for something. No, he needs

39:16 10 million and one and then he meets 10 million and two. He's never going to be satisfied because

39:20 it's a difference between a skeptic and a cynic. A skeptic just asks really, really tough questions.

39:25 A cynic can never be satisfied. But there are people even in that day that didn't come to Christ.

39:30 There are people that saw the resurrected Jesus that didn't believe in them. They didn't put their

39:34 faith in them. Like that is something that actually happened that that what we do have here. Matthew

39:38 28 says, when Jesus ascends to the right hand of God, some worshiped and others doubted. Think

39:43 about that. Like if you're standing there and you see a guy that you saw killed like 52 days

39:49 before this. And then now there he is floating up or, or rocket man up. I mean, you know, iron

39:55 man to heaven. And you're like, I don't know, man, I'm still not convinced. I still got questions.

40:00 It's like, okay, like I totally get it. So all right, Joby, I went from my shortest question of the day

40:05 to this is easily probably going to be my longest setup to a question. So it's going to take me a

40:09 minute to unpack this, but follow along. But it, it, it's basically around the question of how is

40:15 someone saved, which I believe the first time you and I chatted about your first book, you know,

40:19 that's something that I asked, but this gets him to do the predestination versus free will arguments.

40:24 But this is all stuff that we get from from chapter four and then on from there. So let me read this

40:28 quote from chapter four. Some theologians love to say, okay, so which one is it? Does God draw

40:34 or does God have to decide or does everybody have to disguise Jesus response, right, right.

40:40 Some of my pastor buddies get hung up on this whole thing. Election versus free will, they go

40:45 round and round and round. And look, I'm all for vigorous discussion about the word, but here's my

40:49 response. What can the dust do? Dust can't make itself alive. He breathed into us and we came alive.

40:57 The initiation started with him. He elected us, not the other way around in his lungs said another

41:03 way. He chooses me and then gives me the ability to respond to him. And yet if I don't receive him,

41:09 I'm going to hell. And I can take zero credit for following Jesus. I can't wrap my head around that.

41:15 The good news is that he allows me the freedom and time to deliberate choosing him until he gets

41:20 tired of it and chooses him for me through me. Okay, so you write that in chapter four. But then

41:26 in chapter seven, you write this. If you are reading this or listening to it, then God is calling you.

41:32 It's time to realize you're in a burning car. Funny enough from what we just talked about,

41:37 you're in a burning car and reach out for his hand. He wants to pull you from the blaze,

41:43 which begs the question, if dust can't make itself alive, can dust reach out his hand.

41:48 But then in chapter eight, you write this. Here's the truth of you and Jesus. Jesus chose you.

41:55 And yet he gives you the right to receive him or not. So a question that I've asked from

42:00 to some of my very, very reformed people, and I'll make it short, let's say you're a custom

42:04 knife maker and you decide you're going to make me a custom knife. So you pick the metal. You pick

42:10 out, you know, the handle, you make it. I don't even know you're making it for me. And then you're

42:14 done. You've made it. And now you are presenting it to me. You're like, Kyle, here's this, this,

42:20 this knife that I made you, it's gorgeous beyond belief. You did nothing to deserve it.

42:25 In that moment, is it automatically my knife? Or do I actually have to reach out my hand

42:30 and take possession of it? But I'm not done, Joby. I'm not done. Because in chapter nine,

42:35 you write this, if you've never surrendered your life to the lordship of Jesus Christ,

42:40 I am begging you to repent, trust Jesus and be saved. Which begs another question.

42:46 Why would you beg someone to do something when they can't do anything to gain salvation anyway?

42:52 So here's my question after all that setup. When I read a book like this,

42:58 when I listen to the sermons of John MacArthur, when I read some of my favorite Christian

43:02 apologists or or thinkers from back in the day, and the question is, is how is one saved?

43:08 It is this convoluted mess of nonsense that no one seems to be able to get it straight,

43:14 because it's like even John MacArthur writing a letter to the governor of his state saying stop,

43:19 you know, with all the scripture on your, your sign saying the women should come to their state

43:23 and kill their babies. Gavin Newsom. And then he's saying, he's, he's the mister. You can't do

43:28 anything guy, but then he's telling this guy to do things. He's telling the governor, you need

43:33 to repent. You need to turn from this. You need to do that. It's very, very confusing to everyone.

43:38 I've sufficiently in this setup, Joby, [inaudible] off all the reform people, all the Armenian people,

43:43 and all the people that don't even know what label applies to their worldview. So help me.

43:48 How in the world is someone saved? Joby, tell me that you put your trust in Jesus Christ.

43:53 But, but am I actually doing that? Oh, you're talking about, you're talking about good,

43:59 every things. You're talking about, like the mode and method of how you were able to,

44:04 that's one question. The other question is, what must I do to be saved? The Bible is very, very

44:10 clear all over the place. You believe you postuo is the Greek word. You trust and you said it in

44:18 prison because I heard you and you use the language I use. If you believe in Jesus Christ out on the

44:23 cross, somehow that counted for you. And you put your trust in him, not you. That's what it takes

44:30 to be saved. Now, how is one able to do that? Those are the questions that you're asking.

44:35 So we are saved by grace through faith, not by works. So none of us can both. But even the faith

44:42 we have is a gift from God. So Jesus said, you didn't choose me. I chose you. So these two things

44:47 can be simultaneously true and held in tension that God saves. Period. It's not you. God saves.

44:56 And you have a responsibility to place your faith in Jesus Christ. But if you just go one layer

45:04 deeper on that one, then the only way that you have faith to put in Christ is because he gives

45:10 you that gift. Period. So, so I appreciate you drawing that delineating point, because I don't

45:16 know that I've ever seen that in my own philosophy of kind of dealing with this. When you get into

45:21 the discussion of election, which is not what we're going to spend the rest of our time today

45:24 talking about, I swear to goodness, we got out of things we need to cover. The thing with election

45:28 that goes beyond just rubbing people the wrong way. It not only makes God the author of evil,

45:35 it means that God being all knowing, being all omni, everything, all omni, whatever the second

45:40 part of the word would be. He knows that he is creating people for eternal destruction.

45:47 And that is something because I'm not one of those people that's like, oh, you know, God's

45:52 loving and can't do bad things or mean things. Like I'm not one of those people, but it's like,

45:56 man, that I struggled now, especially because I've got two boys. And now it's like, holy crap,

46:01 like I think my wife and I are going to be hanging out in heaven if that's, you know, our setup.

46:05 But what if my boys aren't elect? What if I do everything to surround them and marinate them and

46:10 in Christian culture and in the words of God, but then at the end of the day, they're not elect.

46:15 Like those are the things that keep me up at night, literally.

46:18 Yeah, they should. That's what Paul writes in Romans chapter nine and 10. In fact, he looks at

46:23 his brothers and sisters and he says, in tears, I would, I would, may I be a cursed that they would

46:30 come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. But the question is not like how you feel about it.

46:37 The reason that I believe in election is not because of the way it makes me feel. The reason I

46:41 believe in election is because that's just what the Bible says. It just says it. So,

46:45 I mean, bro, if you want to get on the, on the election or free will conversation,

46:50 the place that that's always going to end is in Romans chapter nine. What is the clay going

46:58 say to the potter? I mean, that's it. You're going to get to a place where God just says,

47:03 what's that clay? What's that? Yeah. So, so, so do you think you're saved because you're smarter

47:09 than everybody else? Do you think you're saved because you're better than everybody else?

47:12 Do you think you're saved because somehow you figured it out and nobody else can figure it out?

47:17 Or do you think you're saved because you were just as evil and violent wretched as everybody else

47:22 and by grace, I gave you the gift of faith and you responded rightly and said, I believe in you

47:28 died on the cross. It counted for me because I'm telling you, man, when I am like, if, if, if I was

47:35 sitting next to the prisoner while you were preaching this weekend and you got to the, you got to the

47:39 invitation part, if I believed it was up to this guy next to me solely to put his faith in Christ,

47:46 I would interrupt your prayer and I would bring him over and I would say, hey, any questions,

47:50 let me explain everything to you to make sure you make the right decision. But that's not what I

47:55 would do in that moment. What I would do is I would beg God to save this man and rip out his heart

48:00 of stone and give him a heart of flesh. I would beg him to do that. I would beg God to give that

48:04 man eyes to see that he better put his faith in Jesus Christ. And I, and I just say that because

48:11 that's what the, that's what the Bible says. I think some of the things you're saying, you don't

48:15 want to be more reformed than the scriptures are. So the reason I feel really good about

48:20 simultaneously talking about the election of God for his chosen people plus I'm begging people to

48:27 put their faith in Christ is because that's what the Bible does. Ephesians two talks about the

48:32 fact that we, we've been elected and in first Corinthians, Paul implores us to be ambassadors

48:40 of reconciliation, making our request on behalf, like God is making his request through us. That

48:47 request is like to beg. I mean, it's like the dad in Luke 15 when he goes out to entreat his older

48:55 son. He is that word, entreat means that great humiliation to this mega wealthy landowner in the

49:02 Middle Eastern honor society is on his knees, begging his son. Won't you please come in the party?

49:08 So when I preach, I know I can't preach anybody in heaven and I beg people to please put their

49:14 faith in Jesus. Okay. So I just know the only way they can is if God saves them.

49:19 So that's really interesting because that was kind of my mindset going into that prison,

49:24 feeling the weight of this moment. And I tried to tell people, I was like, look, I was built to

49:28 get up in front of people and open my big fat ginger mouth. But what comes out, what comes from

49:33 that? Right. That's not on me. But where I guess there's a lot of things there. And so let's dig a

49:39 little bit deeper into that, but not, you know, without below, you know, let's not blow up the

49:43 entire interview here. That brings up, I know that there are reformed folks who whom I love and

49:48 respect and love have a conversations with that say, if you use the word decision at all, that that

49:54 you're not doing it right. And so when someone's like, yeah, I've decided to follow Jesus, that's

49:59 their least favorite him on the entire planet. It's the worst possible thing you could say because

50:03 it's like, you didn't do anything. Because if you say you made the decision, I was like, oh, are you

50:07 just the ultimate decider? Are you the greatest decider in the history of deciders? You decided

50:12 to follow Jesus? That that's a struggle for people. But this also gets into the discussion of the

50:17 inerrancy of the Bible, because you're like, well, this is how someone say because this is what the

50:21 Bible says. You got a lot of buddies, you know, a lot of millionaire pastors out there right now

50:25 that basically don't have a high view of the scripture. And they don't actually want to tie

50:29 anyone's salvation to what happens and what is talked about in the scriptures. These are people

50:35 that are like, you know, hey, we don't need to even talk about the Old Testament. Like because

50:39 it's not the Old Testament that saves you, even though it's the Old Testament that gives us a reason

50:43 why we should have looked to Jesus at all and known what it is he was even doing there on the cross.

50:48 So talk to me a little bit about that about the whole decision language, because again,

50:52 that goes back to the Bible and the Bible doesn't use the word decide necessarily. Does that make

50:57 sense? Sure does. Joshua says, choose for yourself this day whom you will serve. As for me in my house,

51:02 we will serve the Lord. So it's Bible language that look, man, I get it, bro. I'm an asked 29

51:09 person. So, you know, I swim in the Reformed Sea with all those dudes. And there are so many people

51:14 that are just and I love them. I love it. And I love the organization and we plant churches with

51:18 them and all the things, man. And then there's some of these like theological beat nicks over here

51:23 and they just sit around and, you know, put their mustache wax in and drink their IPA and smoke a pipe

51:28 and nuance, which I'm with you. I hate that word, nuance on all these little, I mean,

51:35 how are you going to be critical of an of a hymn that's been around for a couple hundred years,

51:38 man, shut your face. Okay. You can have that little conversation over there. You know what I'm

51:42 going to do? I'm going to stand on stage tonight at our church. I'm preaching Philippians chapter

51:47 three. I'm going to present the gospel. I'm going to just I'm going to preach the gospel that that

51:52 by works of the law, no one will be declared righteous. Okay. And that we have to have this alien

51:57 righteousness that comes through faith in Jesus Christ. And I am going to ask people to surrender

52:03 their life to Christ, but I just know the only way they can is if God calls their name. So back

52:10 to the empty tomb. Mary gets to the empty tomb. And she has all the evidence there. And it's not

52:17 enough. It's not until Jesus who she thinks is a gardener. It's not until he calls her name.

52:24 Then she says, Ramoni, which means like that doesn't mean Rabbi. That's like a term of it. She's like,

52:29 Oh my God, teacher, I love you so much. Okay. So I know, theologically, because of this book,

52:34 that's how it happens. And, and if you're going to be smart enough to lead, lead people, man,

52:41 you got to have space in your brain to be able to hold multiple truths in tension, knowing that

52:47 somehow there's no way I can get a complete understanding of the so tier logical realities

52:54 of God in regards to the salvation of man. I just know this. If you don't preach and if people don't

53:02 believe, they don't get saved. And they don't choose him. He chooses them. And my job is to make an appeal

53:09 that they would be reconciled to God. So my favorite man is you take a super reformed guy like John

53:18 Piper and listen to him preach about it. And he says, he says, I would stand before a crowd of people

53:27 knowing how people get saved and beg people. Won't you come? Won't you come? Won't you come?

53:32 So I would warn people to not be more reformed than the Bible. By the way,

53:36 I've been listening to the forging table a bunch and a couple of things. You need to tell one of

53:44 you boys, the word is inerrant, not inherent. He keeps calling it the inherent word of God.

53:50 That means something preexisting is permanent. That's not what he means. He means without error.

53:55 And you got to tell your other guy who said he was a sensationalist. He means

53:59 cessation, like to cease, not that he is into sensational things. So you got to help him out.

54:05 Well, thank, well, thank you for giving me crap that I can dump on my buddies. But nothing for me.

54:09 I was perfect through all this, right? That's what you're saying? No, not even though. Guys, he's

54:14 if you're not watching this on film, he is nodding. Yes, Kyle, you're perfect. Everything you said

54:18 was completely in line. I do want to pull out a word that you said there in your answer just then

54:23 tension. So tension probably is a better word than nuance, because again, nuance is the number

54:30 one word that dumb people will use to sound smart. But there's we're in this era. And you can

54:35 especially look at this like if you're following politics, nobody can have like a, I don't really

54:39 know answer to a question. You have to know exactly what you believe about tax policy,

54:44 exactly what you believe about us funding the Ukrainian war, exactly what we believe about

54:49 January 6th. You have to have a fully flush out opinion about everything, which leads to an

54:54 attitude of not waiting to see. Like what I tell people every time that, you know, a black young

54:59 man dies at the hands of the police, I was like, guys, let's wait about 48 hours to get just a

55:03 modicum of detail before we can decide whether or not we need to burn our streets to the ground,

55:08 like our burnout buildings to the ground, like let's just wait a second. But it's kind of the same

55:12 thing like I've told people I've via email because I get a lot of emails about the reform stuff,

55:16 our media stuff, all that. And I'm like, guys, I'm figuring some of this stuff out. I know all of

55:21 you have long since, you know, checked all your different theological boxes and you know exactly

55:26 what team you're playing for and what the schedule time for the first game is on Sunday.

55:30 But I'm not there on some of these issues. And another thing is like, young earth creationism.

55:35 People are desperate for me to have a young earth versus an older debate on my show. And I

55:39 don't want to do it. Why? Because I don't give a crap. If the earth is 6000 years old or if the

55:44 earth is 100 bajillion years old, guess what? That doesn't change what happened on the cross.

55:49 And it doesn't change the narrative of the scriptures. It doesn't mean that it's not

55:52 important. It means it's not of the utmost importance that I'm going to like bury my head in the sand

55:56 for the next six months while I get ready for some debate. So tension versus nuance. I love that.

56:01 So one thing before we move off, and I'm actually going to give you an option here. I'm going to

56:05 pull a little bit of a of a fast one on myself. Probably my favorite part of the entire book,

56:10 like you made me cry on a plane. You jerk was the story of Ike Brown. But it is such an incredible

56:19 story, Joby, that. And there's so many different nuances to it that I'm going to give you the

56:25 option either you can tell the story here to our listeners right now and leave out whatever

56:30 details you want to leave out or you can just go tell them to get the book because I don't want to,

56:34 I don't want to just brush past that or speed past the story of Ike Brown and the stuff that

56:39 happened in that man's life. So if you know your schedule, I don't, you make the decision. We're

56:44 either going to talk about it right now and it's in its entirety, or you can tell people to just

56:48 read the book. Do you have a preference? Well, yeah, of course I have a preference, but I just gave

56:53 you the option. Some would say thank you and then go on with their life. You get to do whatever

56:58 you feel called, whatever the spirit is leading you to do, Joby, you tell me.

57:01 I'll tell you very, very briefly, Ike is a police officer whose son was murdered.

57:08 And through a series of events, Ike adopts his son's murderer as his own son.

57:16 So when I first heard this, this event, I met, Ike now goes to our church. So I met him through our,

57:24 through the chair at that point, and he shares a story with me. And you know, it's, if I didn't

57:30 know it to be true, you would think it's like a made up thing, like the details of it are unbelievable.

57:34 And by the way, I don't know exactly when this will come out, but we're going to do an update on

57:41 Ike's story this year for Easter in our Easter services. Yeah, this comes out the day of the book,

57:47 so it'll be out before then. Okay, so it'll be, so tune in or at least, you know,

57:51 watch 1122 online and you'll get an update on, on Ike and Tkoy. That's the guy, that's his,

57:57 that's his adopted son. But when he first told me this story that he said, yeah, I adopted my son's

58:03 murderer. And I said, that's the gospel. And then Ike goes, I never thought about it that way. And

58:09 I'm like, what do you talk? How could you not think about it that way? That is it. We kill God's

58:14 son and God in his love adopts us into his family. It's unbelievable. I won't share the details. I

58:21 mean, there's some like, there's some, some transcripts of letters back and forth that we put in the book

58:26 and yeah, man, it's just an unbelievable picture of our salvation that, that we are the murderers

58:35 of the son of God and the, and God, the father adopted his son's murderers as his burial.

58:41 Well, and Joby, I read that chapter because I was reading the book on my way out to Lewisburg

58:49 prison. Oh, you know, that my travels out there. And then I finished it on the way back. I read

58:54 that after I had visited with those men in prison. And as I talked about on, on my show a couple of

59:00 weeks back, I was hanging out with interacting with shaking hands with hugging and praying with

59:06 murderers, rapists, kidnappers, bank robbers, like literally all the people that are too

59:15 dangerous to be in polite society, which is why we have them locked up where we have them locked up.

59:20 And then I read that story. And then I automatically, as any good reader of any narrative would do,

59:27 you put yourself in the story. That's why we get scripture wrong so much is because we think we're

59:31 David in the story of David and Goliath. But I'm putting myself in Ike shoes. And I've got a two

59:36 year old and a one year old son. And the level of evil things I would do to someone that would

59:42 hurt those boys is only understood to everyone else in my audience that has sons or daughters.

59:48 Okay. So which is almost all of you. And to hear him almost with again, the details are in the book,

59:54 you got to read the entire narrative in the book. But just like the moment he set eyes on his son's

1:00:01 killer, he wasn't filled with anger. He wasn't filled with rage. He wasn't even filled with pity.

1:00:07 He was filled with love. He loved him. And it makes no sense to me that he would do that.

1:00:13 That is about his other worldly of an experience to where even that guy, maybe he doesn't have the

1:00:19 words to fully express what he felt in that moment. But he saw he sees a young man who killed his son

1:00:25 in cold blood and basically just said, well, that's my son now. And this was even months if not years,

1:00:31 I forget the timeline before that that any of that went down. So just an just an absolutely unfathomable

1:00:36 story. You guys got to pick up the book to read it. But let's go and hop on to let's keep this

1:00:41 goal. Let's go to chapter six. So this is called Mary anoints Jesus. Do you believe Jesus is worthy

1:00:46 of worship? No matter what. So in this chapter, you mentioned, you know, many of the giants of the

1:00:52 faith from the past. So you mentioned Augustine, Luther, Spurgeon, John Owen, brother Lawrence,

1:00:58 A. W. Tozer. There's probably some in there that I that I missed. Talk to me about the importance

1:01:03 of modern Christians, not just listening to their favorite pastor's podcast, because you're alive.

1:01:07 So you can listen to somebody's podcast that's still alive as well. But to go back to what some

1:01:12 people would call some of the church fathers, but just some of the giants of the faith, some of the

1:01:16 giant thinkers of the faith, obviously the people, the Reformation in getting us to where we even have

1:01:22 a revolution or even an understanding of how we should be able to do church now. You know, talk to

1:01:27 us about the importance of that. But then also I'm going to tell you, I'm going to make you pick

1:01:30 your favorite, you know, old dad friend. Which of those guys, if you couldn't read any of the others,

1:01:35 who would be the guy that you would sit under his tutelage the most? It could be one of those

1:01:38 guys I mentioned or somebody else. Well, that's hard. Probably the reason I wanted to go back and

1:01:44 grab some of these, these quotes in the context of worship. These guys were just playing a different

1:01:54 game, man. This is way different than showing up during the second and a half song during the

1:01:59 weekend service. And then you kind of sort of hum along while you drink a cup of coffee.

1:02:06 That is different than John Owen saying, Oh, and behold, the glory of Christ. Here in what I live,

1:02:11 here in what I die, here in what I dwell in my thoughts and my affections until all things below

1:02:17 become unto me a dead and deformed thing. No way suitable for affection at that embraces.

1:02:23 Dude, man, that's, that's bringing some passion. He's not getting hung up on worship style.

1:02:30 You know, that joker is because, because what we're talking about here is when Mary bust open the

1:02:37 expensive ointment and pours it out on the feet of Jesus. And is that what you do when you go to

1:02:45 church? I mean, we live in a society right now, man. It, it bones me out the amount of preachers

1:02:50 that are just downplaying how important the weekend worship experience is in the life of the believer.

1:02:59 I mean, I've heard guys say, well, listen, it's not all about just everybody showing up,

1:03:02 singing a couple songs and listening to me do a little talk. Well, of course, nothing's happening

1:03:06 in your church. If that's what you think church is, but my understanding of the scriptures, man,

1:03:11 is that the saints have assembled. And there's some outsiders here that God is drawing unto himself

1:03:18 and supernatural things are happening in these moments. Marriages are being restored,

1:03:22 prodigals are coming home. And the only eternal miracle is happening, salvation. And if you are not

1:03:28 gripped and overcome with gratitude for what Christ did for you on the cross, then you're not doing

1:03:35 it right, man. That's why worship matters. That, that is the right response to the fact that the

1:03:41 tomb is empty is that you take the most valuable thing you have and you pour it out. Even if you

1:03:47 look like a fool, you pour it out onto the feet of Jesus. And so, I mean, the most extreme one is

1:03:52 brother Lawrence, who says, I have had such delicious thoughts of the Lord that I scarce not speak of

1:03:57 them. And I'm still of the can that I don't think that's not the phrase I would use. I think you use

1:04:03 delicious for food only. Yeah, but he's talking about that's different than like I did my quiet time.

1:04:09 That's different. Yeah. One also, you have to ask yourself, who are you in that story? Because again,

1:04:15 we all put ourselves in scripture. We all do it no matter if we admit to it or not. Are you the

1:04:19 woman breaking that, that jar and pouring over Jesus' feet? Or are you Judas in the background

1:04:24 being like, Oh my gosh, that's so expensive. We could have sold that and given it to the poor.

1:04:29 Because I'll be honest, for the majority of my life, it's been I've been Judas in the background,

1:04:33 but I stopped before that we could even sell that and give it to the poor part because I haven't

1:04:37 even been that charitable in my thinking. It's just been like, well, what are you doing? Like,

1:04:41 you know, just think about it. That is you taking your Jordan threes and setting them on fire for

1:04:46 Jesus. That is you ripping up your King Griffey Jr. rookie card and tossing it at the feet of Jesus.

1:04:51 That is you literally melting down your Ferrari and then just dumping it around Jesus. So there's

1:04:56 a glow around him for just five seconds. Like whatever your thing is, you're melting down,

1:05:01 you know, your favorite hunting rifle, your favorite, you know, shoulder mount, your favorite, whatever.

1:05:05 Like that's what that is in that moment. And most of us just don't ever get there. But you did skirt

1:05:09 my question. You got to pick one of them. Okay. So who's the one? If you had to pick one forever,

1:05:15 that means you can't read a word. The rest of them said for the rest of your life. Who are you

1:05:18 taking? I probably go with Spurgeon because he because he is a preacher. So I'd probably go with

1:05:22 Spurgeon. You just made a lot of people in my audience happy. We got a lot of Spurgeon folks in

1:05:26 our audience. But I want to go ahead and go to chapter eight here. So chapter eight is the empty

1:05:30 tomb. Do you believe God raised his son to life? And so I'm going to read a short quote from that

1:05:35 chapter. And so when the Bible says he saw and believed, it doesn't mean believe that it means

1:05:43 believe in big difference. So I think this goes back to our discussion from earlier a little bit

1:05:48 in terms of, you know, how the mystery, almost of how one is saved. But I think specifically with

1:05:54 this question, I want to ask it more in an intellectual capacity. Because I know there are people

1:05:59 that come to Christ after an emotional experience. So they've gone to to the big, awesome preaching

1:06:05 moment. They've gone to a so called revival, or they've gone to some things somewhere.

1:06:10 There's music that's played. They sing the course 47 times in the bridge 18 times,

1:06:14 and they raise their hands. And then through that emotional experience where they were manipulated

1:06:19 by core changes, they accept Christ. I know that that happens. But then there are people that sit

1:06:25 down with 17 books open at the library, and they use this one across reference that one and blah,

1:06:29 blah. And then they just let go, what dad come it? This Middle Eastern Jew literally was resurrected

1:06:35 from the dead. That's amazing. And so the emotional people will think the intellectual

1:06:40 people are not feeling enough. And the intellectual people are thinking emotional people are not

1:06:43 thinking enough. But the problem is, is there is a mystery in the believe in and the belief that

1:06:50 is it even possible for someone to believe that Jesus died for their sins, but then to not believe

1:06:56 in it? And if I'm, if I'm splitting too many hairs, let me know. But that's, that's the thing of

1:07:00 mystery for a lot of people. The answer would be yes, because the, it's a shame in my opinion

1:07:07 that the Greek word pastuo even gets the word, the English word believe associated with it. I think

1:07:14 the trust would be a better, a better translation. So like John three, 16 would say, "Forgot so

1:07:21 little of the world he gave his own, they've gotten son that who so ever would trust that

1:07:25 probably be a better translation than believe because you yourself admitted being from Oklahoma,

1:07:30 you would have considered yourself a Christian because you would have, you would have acknowledged

1:07:36 God is God. He sent his son Jesus down on the cross. He resurrected on the third day. Good

1:07:40 people go ahead. Okay. So I'm trying to prevent people from that. My favorite illustration is when

1:07:48 I was a little kid on the diving board and my dad would be in the deep end of the pool and I

1:07:53 couldn't swim. And he would say, "Come on buddy, jump." At that moment, I knew that was my dad,

1:07:59 but I was not pursue-wowing in my dad. It wasn't until I took the full weight of my life and trusted

1:08:06 in his hands knowing that if he doesn't catch me, I drown. That's it. That is what the Bible is

1:08:11 talking about when it says, "Pestuo or believe in." You know, you believe that Texas Tech is a school,

1:08:19 but you don't believe in them. Just like I believe- Because no one does, right? Because they're

1:08:24 terrible. I would hope not. But they exist. We know they exist. But that's different than like

1:08:29 putting your whole life, the weight of your life on to. Now, I don't think you can believe in

1:08:35 without believing that. Like, I'm not trying to make this just purely an emotional thing. Like,

1:08:42 Romans 10-9, if you don't believe that, Jesus rose from the dead, I don't care what you believe in,

1:08:47 you ain't going to heaven. So there is the historical fact. And those things happened.

1:08:56 But the question is, have you put your trust in Jesus and who he says he is and what he did on the

1:09:02 cross for your sin? Yeah, I think that's very helpful. Because for a lot of people,

1:09:06 I don't know if you said in the book or just saw it somewhere else, there was that guy that was

1:09:10 walking back and forth over Niagara Falls on a tight rope. And then he was walking a wheelbarrow

1:09:15 back and forth. And then he says, "Hey, who thinks that I could get you back and forth across Niagara

1:09:20 Falls on this wheelbarrow?" And a lot of people raised their hands and he said, "Who would like

1:09:23 to volunteer?" And nobody raised their hands anymore. It's like, "Okay, you believe that? It's

1:09:27 something he could do, but you're not going to put your faith in him because if you get it wrong,

1:09:31 you both die." So I want to go ahead and go to chapter nine. And we'll make this the last question

1:09:36 I ask about the book. But chapter nine is called "The gift of the Holy Spirit. Do you want to know

1:09:40 Christ and the power of his resurrection?" So there was a very, very interesting quote here that I

1:09:44 want to get a little bit more on. And here it is, "In our current culture, we get baptized with

1:09:48 both hands out of the water. In one hand, we hold our wallet. And in the other, we hold our sexuality.

1:09:55 Bottom line, if he's not Lord of all, he's not Lord of all, Lord at all." And so it's just an

1:10:02 interesting image to imagine, because everyone, I think at this point, is seen full immersion

1:10:07 baptism. But to see somebody like, "What if they did get baptized and they were holding their car

1:10:13 keys and their favorite book out of the water?" You'd be like, "That's kind of weird. What is it

1:10:18 about your car, that book that you think is so interesting and that book's not the Bible?"

1:10:23 But the thing that I think we've gotten into now, and this bleeds into a discussion of big time,

1:10:28 big personality, big following pastors that refuse to talk about things like sexuality.

1:10:34 So I've been very, very adamant in Ford and you and I've talked a lot offline about a guy

1:10:38 that people may have heard of, named Andy Stanley, who refuses to talk about homosexuality and to

1:10:43 condemn it as a sin. And again, as you and I have discussed, it's different for what a

1:10:48 pastor should say from a pulpit versus a guy on a podcast throwing sticks a dynamite. But at the

1:10:53 same time, my concern is that pastors in the ilk of Andy Stanley are leading people to hell,

1:11:00 because he's not holding up a mirror and saying, "Yep, your sin, whatever your sin is that you're

1:11:05 doing right now, that is the sin that makes you depraved and that will send you to hell." Right?

1:11:10 And everyone's got their varsity sins. Yeah, we want to talk about homosexuality, but we don't

1:11:13 want to talk about gluttony. Right? Everyone's got their favorite sin that they like to talk

1:11:18 about from the rooftops and the one they like to ignore. But the problem that we're seeing is this

1:11:22 isn't a unique thing that's happening. Like Andy, Sandy isn't unique. He's just a millionaire

1:11:27 pastor that is saying it behind the biggest microphone. And so that's the problem that I think a lot of

1:11:32 people are getting into is they're not even getting to the baptismal waters where they have the opportunity

1:11:37 to stick both of their hands out. Churches are just becoming a place to where it's just like,

1:11:41 "Hey, here's a social club where you can come and hang out and we're not going to talk about your sin."

1:11:46 So just come on in. The water's fine. So go with that wherever you want to go,

1:11:50 but that's such a problem for me. And I know I'm a crazy person always looking for a fight,

1:11:55 but even for the people that are more subdued and relaxed, they just don't know what to do with

1:11:59 that because that is the culture of modern Christianity that their kids are going to be

1:12:02 inheriting and they don't like it. The illustration that I give, I stole from the middle ages. That's

1:12:10 how crusaders would get baptized. I don't know if you know this. They would get baptized with

1:12:13 their hand with their sword out of the water because they knew the atrocious things they were

1:12:17 about to go do in the name of Jesus. And so these days we don't necessarily have a sword.

1:12:23 It's primarily, I think, money and sexuality. So it is in church history. Those kinds of

1:12:30 baptisms did happen. It's kind of sick, right? Now, man, you just got to... My same answer is when

1:12:37 you were asking about salvation, if you teach the Bible, you're going to have to teach on sin.

1:12:42 And so at our church, what we primarily do is just teach through books of the Bible. Right now,

1:12:47 we're in Philippians. Next will be James. Sometimes we do topical things. We do family series or

1:12:52 financial series, which is totally fine, at least in my opinion, because the epistles, that's what

1:12:58 they were. Paul was speaking to specific topics that that specific church dealt with. So I think

1:13:04 that's fine. But I don't know, man. If you teach the full counsel of the Word of God, then I don't

1:13:13 know how you don't teach on sin, particularly the sin of sexuality and the crazy times that

1:13:20 we live in. Now, man, I try to do it with grace and truth, you know. In regards to like homosexuality,

1:13:30 we did it 37 weeks in the book of Romans. Well, man, it's going to hit it pretty hard a few times,

1:13:35 right? Yeah. And, you know, it's one thing to just be right. It's another thing to help

1:13:44 try to lead people to a right relationship with Jesus. Now, you cannot do that by misdiagnosing

1:13:51 the sickness in sin. That doesn't help anybody. But man, you sure can do it in a way that is loving

1:13:58 and careful and empathetic. I'm just telling you, there are people that I know that struggle with

1:14:05 same sex attraction. And this world has tried to tell them, first of all, they shouldn't be at our

1:14:10 church. This world tries to tell them that we can't love each other. And this world tries to tell them

1:14:15 that that is their primary identifier. And I'm trying to simultaneously just tell them what the

1:14:21 Bible says. And it says that if you were in Christ, that is your primary identifier. There's no

1:14:30 adjectives are needed before the word Christian. You're just a Christian, not a certain kind of one.

1:14:35 But then you just got to call people to repent and follow after Jesus, man. Because if he, again,

1:14:41 if he's not, if you're not, if you're not submitting yourself to him, say, I'm not the boss of me,

1:14:49 you are, whether I agree with it or not, I'm going to do what you say, not what I say,

1:14:53 or at least what I understand the Bible to say to the best of my ability surrounded in a faithful

1:14:59 community. I mean, that's what we're calling people to. So I don't know if you got a bunch of

1:15:03 preachers listening to this or not, but just trust the power of the word of God. That's where the

1:15:08 power is not in your acute sermons and in the way you package it up. And so that's what we do here.

1:15:15 We just teach, we just teach the word of God. So wherever it goes, I go. And boy, there's sometimes

1:15:20 I can't explain to you how uncomfortable I am. And but I don't do the Thomas Jefferson Bible and

1:15:25 just cut out the parts I don't like. Well, I got to say, you know, I go around and speak at churches

1:15:31 on probably the most uncomfortable topic to speak on. And that's abortion. But I start with that,

1:15:36 there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So it's like,

1:15:39 can we all just acknowledge what's happening in the room right now? I know the statistics,

1:15:43 there are women in this room that have killed their babies with abortion. There are men in this

1:15:46 room that have paid for it that have driven them and picked them up. There are family members that

1:15:50 paid for this problem to go away. So no one would know that their daughter's just kind of a skank.

1:15:54 Like all of those situations are happening in this room. So let's build from there that guys,

1:16:00 I'm not going to trick you at the end and say you're all murderers and Christ can't save you.

1:16:05 It's like, can we just pretend that Jesus died for those sins as well? But that's the thing that

1:16:10 I'm just curious about this, Joby is for these pastors, these prominent pastors have these huge

1:16:14 platforms. Excuse me. I guess what I try to steal me on the other side. I think straw manning is

1:16:21 super easy. That's why people do it. But steel manning is where you put up the best version of the

1:16:25 other argument or the people that disagree with you and you try to knock that down. Because if you

1:16:29 can do that, you know, your position is solid. I try to put myself in the, in the mindset of these

1:16:35 people, these pastors that not the ones that are, you know, hanging out the LGBTQ, you know, flags

1:16:40 outside the congregations and, you know, ordaining women and all that, not that. But just the people

1:16:45 that won't say that certain things are sinful. They have no problem saying adultery, sinful,

1:16:49 they have no problem. I hate saying hating people's sinful, premarital sex, they'll say all these

1:16:53 things. But then when it gets to homosexuality specifically, they won't talk about it. And then

1:16:58 when you get to transgenderism, their heads basically explode because they're just a gaggle of nonsense

1:17:04 slogans, one right after the other. And I love what Vodie Bockam said recently, he said when most

1:17:08 pastors preach on homosexuality, their sermon dies the death of a thousand qualifications before they

1:17:14 get their first point out, because they're like, you know, we have a lot of homosexual people that

1:17:19 we know. And there's homosexual people in this church. And we just want to let you know that we

1:17:22 love you. And Jesus loves you. And he's like, imagine someone saying, you know, we've got a lot of

1:17:26 pedophiles that are church or, you know, we got a lot of, I know a lot of pedophiles. I got a lot

1:17:29 of pedophiles that are my friends. And Jesus loves you. And it's like, that would sound really, really

1:17:33 weird. But it's the same on the homosexuality thing. I guess what, what is the idea that these people

1:17:39 are doing? Like what exactly do they think they're accomplishing by not talking about it other than,

1:17:44 you know, making nice with the people at, you know, relevant magazine or something?

1:17:48 So if I try to play the steel man, because I preach about it as often as the books of the

1:17:56 Bible, I'm preaching preaches about it. Makes sense. So absolutely. You hear me preach. So I try to handle

1:18:02 it. I do try to handle it with, with love and compassion. You know, I mean, Jesus, there's just

1:18:13 a lot of people who wants to throw stones, man, they just are on both sides. And what often what

1:18:17 happens though, Kyle, is the moment you are starting to try to like rally the base as a preacher,

1:18:22 that's different than shepherding a group of people towards a destination. And there's a lot

1:18:30 of really conservative and look, I'm as conservative as it gets in regards to my theology. There's a

1:18:35 bunch of really conservative preachers that are really just preaching to the other conservative

1:18:40 preachers and the really conservative audiences that know they're going to get the biggest cheer

1:18:45 when they say the most divisive thing. And they've got a Bible verse to do it.

1:18:50 And, and there's a core of that that is very similar to the guy that's really scared to say

1:18:57 anything because he's trying to get his, he's trying to rally his base, which is more progressive

1:19:02 and more like, even if I believe it's wrong, let's just not talk about it because it's uncomfortable.

1:19:06 So sometimes they can, these two people that are saying the exact opposite thing,

1:19:10 it's coming from the same space, man. And it's a, it's a little bit of the applause of man. So

1:19:14 you just got to be careful of that. So I don't care what relevant magazine thinks about me,

1:19:18 or I don't care what Vodie Bockam thinks about me. And I know Vodie, Vodie a little bit, we help

1:19:22 take care of him when he was having some health issues here in Jacksonville, because he was at

1:19:25 the Mayo and I appreciate his ministry, but I appreciate a lot of people's ministry.

1:19:30 I know for me and my church, there will be a day that I stand before the Lord and give an account.

1:19:35 And here's the conversation I have pre-decided that I refuse to have with the Lord.

1:19:40 If God were to say to me, hey, how come you never, my, my word clearly talks about homosexuality,

1:19:48 why didn't you talk about it? And me go, I don't know, maybe uncomfortable. I'd rather be uncomfortable

1:19:53 today and really comfortable then than to have those things reversed. Okay. Now, now if,

1:20:00 but I just made a case on why you should. All right. I think what those folks are thinking

1:20:05 is if we can just get them here and understand it's not by works that you're saved. So we don't

1:20:14 have a whole list of sins that you have to quit doing before you meet Jesus. I think what they're

1:20:19 thinking is let's just meet Jesus and then we'll handle this. Let's go justification first and then

1:20:26 we'll handle the sanctifying work of the spirit of God in your life then. So let's not prioritize

1:20:32 something that's not the priority because the priority is do you know that you're a sinner?

1:20:37 Do you believe Jesus came to down the cross to save sinners? Do you believe? And I think

1:20:43 they prioritize that to the point. I think that would be a pretty good explanation.

1:20:48 However, just because something is not the priority does not mean it's not essential.

1:20:52 So that's the problem, I think. So the resurrection is the priority period, but it's not the only

1:21:01 essential doctrine in the scriptures like the most the highest priority in your life right now is

1:21:06 got to be air, right? Sure. But that doesn't mean it's the only essential thing for life. If you

1:21:12 don't eat for three months, you're going to die regardless of if you have air. So I think you just

1:21:17 got to teach the whole Bible. I'm telling you though, man, if you're not trying to just be right

1:21:23 all the time, but you're trying to be used as a conduit to lead people into a right relationship

1:21:28 with Jesus. And then quite honestly, if the people that you're talking to know that you love them,

1:21:33 I can't tell you the amount of same sex couples, Kyle, that we have actively attend our church.

1:21:40 They're here every week. And at some point you're like, you know, guys or girls, it's mostly girls,

1:21:46 I don't know why. But you're like, what's going on here? And they're like, we love you. We think

1:21:49 you're awesome. You're a great preacher. We love the way you impact the word. And I'm like, but

1:21:53 you've heard me teach Romans one, they're like, yeah, we think you're wrong on that, but nobody's

1:21:57 perfect. All right. I mean, I don't know what we're not going to kick them out. They're not going

1:22:02 to be covenant members. But we hold we hold people to the same standard. Now, the one thing I do think

1:22:09 is important is that sexual sin is a category unto itself. First Corinthians six. But I do think

1:22:16 in this day and age, it's really important that when you talk about homosexuality, you should be

1:22:22 covering all sexual immorality. But you better be ready to hammer the couple sleeping together,

1:22:29 which they all are just as much as you are homosexuality. Now, it is a bit different because,

1:22:35 because as we're always one says, one is against creation order, but all throughout the scriptures,

1:22:42 Paul and Jesus both put it in the same junk drawer of sexual sin, which would be pornayo.

1:22:48 So to when I that's what I try to do, I just try to let the person that's struggling

1:22:55 with same sex attraction realize that they have a very similar struggle than the guy

1:23:01 struggling with pornography and lusts next to him. It's not the same, but it's in, according to

1:23:06 the Bible, it's in the same category. And they, and we all need to repent and be saved.

1:23:10 Well, that's why I think I've heard Christians say even that go to my church, they're just like,

1:23:13 ah, you know, Kyle, you know, homosexuality is just like, you know, lying or cheating under taxes

1:23:19 or something like that. It's like, no, if you, if you believe, if you believe that Paul's words are,

1:23:24 you know, spoken to him through God and he wrote him down, then you, you see that as a

1:23:28 categorical difference, it is a categorically different sin. That's a church camp thing that all,

1:23:32 all, you know, sins are weighted the same. Like we don't get that when we look at scripture.

1:23:36 Right. Yeah, that's a, that's a total misunderstanding. So the phrase is true, like all sin is sin in

1:23:41 regards to salvation. Like any one little sin is enough. The broadest possible category that would

1:23:48 make you miss the mark and you don't get to go to heaven because you're a sinner. That is true.

1:23:53 But there's no, I mean, anybody that reads the scriptures can understand that there are,

1:23:57 there are categories of sin and different sins have different consequences. Yeah, it's clear.

1:24:04 Well, and I think the thing I wrote down is like behavioral modification. There are these,

1:24:08 you know, secret sensitive churches that don't want to focus on behavioral modification

1:24:11 because it's almost like they want to come in through the back door for give the pun on some of

1:24:14 these, you know, sins and different things like that. Like they, they want to go that route because

1:24:19 it's like, Hey, we want to introduce you to Jesus before we start talking about all this

1:24:22 persnickety stuff about, you know, you sleep in with your boyfriend, that, that type of thing.

1:24:26 So, so one thing that I want to talk about as well, and this is, you know, tangentially

1:24:31 involved with the thing that we just got through talking about, you know, with homosexuality,

1:24:34 I want to talk about this movement, because again, you know, I used to be a big time follower of Andy

1:24:39 Stanley and then he's completely fallen out of favor with me. So just so I can be an equal

1:24:43 opportunity offender, I'm going to go ahead and bring Matt Chandler into this, a guy that I've

1:24:47 loved for a long time and I still love. And then JD Greer, a guy that I've had no opinion on for a

1:24:52 long time. And now I'm just kind of paying attention to him a little bit closer. But all those three

1:24:56 guys that I've talked about, Andy Stanley, Matt Chandler, JD Greer, and a bunch of others have

1:25:00 talked about things like critical race theory, which comes from critical theory, which comes from

1:25:05 the Frankfurt School, which comes from critical legal studies, which comes from Marxism, which

1:25:09 comes from Satan's butthole. Like they say that critical race theory is just a lens through which

1:25:15 we can understand the plight of people in this country that have a particular level of melanin,

1:25:20 otherwise known as their immutable characteristics that they can't change. And when I see pastors

1:25:26 of any ilk, whether I follow them and like them, don't follow them have no opinion on them. That

1:25:31 concerns the bejesus out of me that you would use these things. And it's almost like you don't

1:25:36 understand that you're playing with fire. You don't understand that you just let a rattlesnake

1:25:41 loosen your pants. And the fact that he hasn't bit you yet is a grace of God. It's not that you're

1:25:47 right. It's that you're lucky. And so I struggle with these pastors that will bring in a biblical

1:25:52 concepts that are not just a biblical concepts. These are satanic concepts that are completely

1:25:58 oil to the water of scripture. But then they're just like, it's this pragmatism. It's like,

1:26:04 oh, we're just being pragmatic. We're just trying to understand and we're just trying to do these

1:26:08 other things. So as opposed to going to scripture, we're going to go to, you know,

1:26:11 Ibram X. Kendi, or we're going to go to any of these other, you know, made up authors and theologians

1:26:18 of this particular worldview. Help me understand that because that's not something that I've heard

1:26:22 you do. But it's like, it's so popular now that even the Southern Baptist conventions like, yeah,

1:26:27 sure, why not bring it in? Let's just, let's just have critical race here. Hey, how about we do a

1:26:32 seance at our next, you know, SBC meeting just to see if we're missing anything. So say me before I

1:26:37 say another thing that'll get me canceled. It might be a jump there. Okay, so I don't know Andy.

1:26:42 We've met a couple times. Matt Chandler is one of my dearest friends and J.D. Greer is one of my

1:26:48 dearest friends. And I just, you need to know this dude. These, these are gospel centered Bible

1:26:56 believing men of God. And they're better dudes than there are preachers and they're two of the best

1:27:03 preachers our country has ever seen in the history of our country. And they love the Lord and they

1:27:09 love the scriptures and they are not deviating from the scripture. The one thing I would see,

1:27:15 I would check is when exactly did they say some of these things? And the reason I say that is because

1:27:20 I used to, I ran a, I ran a class here at our church like pre George Floyd days called the gospel

1:27:29 in race because the amount of deep seated racism in Jacksonville is unbelievable. And the way I know

1:27:39 that is because anytime you poke the bear, anytime I poke the bear about racism here, bro, you want

1:27:45 to see the hateful emails I get. I mean, I have one of my dear friends who is an African American

1:27:50 preacher come in and preach and he preached on race. And some of the, I mean, dude, I just

1:27:57 racist emails I got from our people. So it's deep there. So what I was trying to do with this gospel

1:28:03 in race class is a four week class, I bring some of my buddies in, Black pastors in and we would,

1:28:08 we would start kind of, because I'm trying to shepherd this flock and we are starting in a not

1:28:14 good place. And we were trying to move people towards, we'll use Bible language that when Christ

1:28:22 came, he tore down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile. So that's what we're trying to do in

1:28:28 the gospel. Okay, not some kind of weird affirmative action thing. And then because it's the church,

1:28:33 all right. And so there are some things I was saying and pushing even a few years ago

1:28:38 that it seems to me has almost been like hijacked in the past few years. And it's like those words

1:28:45 don't even mean what we were using them for a few years ago. Okay. So when the SBC votes on the

1:28:51 critical race theory thing, bro, there ain't a brother among us that even know what we're talking

1:28:55 about. We don't, we don't, I mean, I'm not an SBC guy. So I'm not even, I can't thank God. I'm

1:29:00 nothing. I'm wearing a mutt. There ain't no way I joined a denomination right now. You kidding me?

1:29:04 I can't, I mean, they're all a mess. So anyway, but there's some stuff that that, I mean, there's

1:29:10 some people that there's a few people that know the history and all of that kind of stuff. I know

1:29:17 what JD is trying to do at the summit church. And I know what Matt is trying to do at the village

1:29:22 church is have a church that looks like revelation when all kinds of different tribes, tongues,

1:29:27 nations, that, that is rooted and grounded in the gospel. And so anybody that talks as much as we do,

1:29:35 it wouldn't be very hard for you to go back enough years and find something I said. And that word

1:29:40 doesn't even fully mean what it's what it means anymore. Do you know what I mean?

1:29:44 Yeah. I mean, like, take, take the, here's an example. Boy, let's give me in trouble. This would

1:29:50 be awesome. Yes. Uh, we're an hour and a half in people probably tuned us out. It's only the

1:29:56 super fans that are still hanging around. So you're fine. I don't care. I mean, we're buddies. So I

1:29:59 just feel like we'd be talking anyway. Otherwise we'll record it. Let's go. All right. So, uh, Eric

1:30:04 Mason writes a book called woke church a bunch of years ago way before the word woke was a thing.

1:30:09 Okay. Bro, we gave it to our church. We're like, you should read this. Have you even, did you even

1:30:14 realize redlining was a thing? Ain't a person in our church, ain't a white person in our church

1:30:19 had ever even heard that there was a disparity in how the GI Bill was handed out. They're like,

1:30:24 what? Okay. I think those are some things people need to know about recent history now. Absolutely.

1:30:31 Would I use the phrase, uh, systemic racist that our country is systemically racist?

1:30:38 I would be like, hold on. Today, you can, I was, I'd stay away from those words.

1:30:42 I mean, I would, I wouldn't touch those words. Now, would I say in our history, there were systems

1:30:48 that were, were racist? 100% are people racist? Yes. Okay. So, but there's some of those things.

1:30:55 Dude, today I wouldn't use the word woke. I think woke is in its current vernacular,

1:31:01 woke is like of the devil. It is demonic. It is Marxist. It is not about race only. It's about

1:31:08 transgenderism. I mean, I mean, it is just morph into this whole thing that, that if you could see

1:31:15 this monster, when it first peaked his head up, you'd be like, that's the devil. So yeah, that's,

1:31:22 I would give some guys a little grace on the, on the, now see, these two guys, Matt and,

1:31:27 Matt and JD are easy for me. I know them. I know their hearts. I know what they're doing.

1:31:31 They are, these are just great commission Bible preaching guys. Okay. Just, so just know that,

1:31:38 but could you go back to some language that has been used in the past and think,

1:31:42 for sure. Well, so, so a couple of quick things. Number one, my biggest problem with JD Greer is

1:31:47 that he doesn't have a podium. Like, can we raise some money? Let's get a go fund together. Let's

1:31:51 get this guy a podium so we can set his binder down. So he's not reading it to me. Just email it.

1:31:57 If you're just going to read it to me, just email it to me, JD, but specifically on Matt,

1:32:01 because I believe I'll have my dates right. But so Matt Chandler used to do, I'm trying to remember

1:32:05 all four, but every January, he would do a sermon about abortion. He would do a sermon about, you know,

1:32:11 you know, a quick, you know, sending out, you know, going to the ends of the earth to spread the

1:32:14 gospel. He do one about race. And then there was a fourth one that I can't remember prayer.

1:32:17 I think prayer was, okay, prayer. That's right. And then, you know, there'd be updates on what's

1:32:21 happening at the village, you know, all, you know, spread out throughout that. I believe this was

1:32:25 January 2021. He talked about critical race theory being something. And he said the same thing you

1:32:31 did the moment I talk about race. You won't believe the emails I'm going to get. You won't

1:32:34 believe the DMS. I'm going to get and everyone believes them. Because, you know, if that's not

1:32:38 shocking, I shouldn't be shocking to anybody that there are morons out there that believe those things.

1:32:41 But the way that Matt Chandler framed it, that was so highly and deeply inappropriate. I don't

1:32:46 have the exact words, but this is the sentiment is that we're going to use things like critical

1:32:51 race theory and some of those different theories to understand the plight of people of color here

1:32:57 in this country. And if you dare call us Marxist for doing so, you're wrong. And that's of the devil.

1:33:04 I, I about blew my top knot. I could not believe that he said that it goes back to what we were

1:33:10 saying earlier to where it's like, no one has any tension that they're holding with these types of

1:33:15 things. It was a declarative statement that if you say the Marxist things that he was doing were

1:33:20 Marxist in their intent and origin, that that was coming from Satan. That was the thing where I was

1:33:26 like, wait a minute, you're my boy, Matt Chandler. I considered moving to nowhere's ville, Texas,

1:33:31 just to go to your church before, like I will veer out of my way on vacation to go sit in your

1:33:36 pews on a Sunday morning just to hear you talk live and scream at me and then whisper and then

1:33:41 scream and then whisper. But what in the world was that? So I think that's the problem is when somebody

1:33:47 is agreeing, agreeing, agreeing with the things that the pastor saying and they feel convicted,

1:33:51 convicted, convicted. And then we get to this, we're made to feel like we're the racist for simply

1:33:57 hearing that and being like, wait a minute, you're not going to call me satanic because

1:34:01 apparently I know way more about Marxism than you do. Does that make sense?

1:34:04 Yeah, but just first is ask yourself the question, are you

1:34:08 like, what is it in you that gets so defensive?

1:34:12 Defensive about the just the subject of race in general?

1:34:15 Yeah, about being called a racist if you are anti a critical race theory, just just real quick.

1:34:20 I mean, yeah, because me too, yeah, let me let me answer that because I have a tendency to

1:34:25 not hold the mirror up first. Fair enough. So I think that's fair to hold the mirror up

1:34:30 and point it back at somebody. So I've gotten to a point in my life and in my career where there's

1:34:35 not a word you can use to describe me. That's going to make me do anything other than giggle.

1:34:39 You can call me anything. And as long as you don't put hands on me or my family,

1:34:44 you can go on live in your life, buddy, and there's not going to be any consequences.

1:34:47 But it's it's the true injustice of pointing at somebody and calling them something that they are

1:34:53 so clearly not. That's where it drives me insane. It's, you know, it's somebody that's blue and

1:34:59 you're calling them purple. It's one of those situations. So it it couldn't it could be about

1:35:03 the abortion issue. It could be about any other issue that is a hot button issue. It just so happens

1:35:08 to be that he's bringing in something from the pits of hell and ideology from the pits of hell.

1:35:13 And he's saying it to these, you know, people in his crowd that are basically just like sheep shaped

1:35:18 sponges and they're just going to go with whatever Matt Chandler says. And then there's going to be

1:35:23 that five to 10% of people that are going to get mad and fire off an email. That's the thing.

1:35:27 It's not the racism part. Like it's not any of that like because I don't look at anyone's

1:35:31 immutable characteristic and be like, well, I'm going to define you by that now. You are a brown

1:35:35 person. You are a yellow person. You are a white person. You are whatever. I'll say it this way. So

1:35:39 I haven't heard that particular sermon that you're talking about. So I would I would need to go

1:35:44 listen to it or I'll just ask I'll ask Matt about it. Now, let me give you a for instance.

1:35:51 I've never told my congregation which way I vote

1:35:55 though you have heard me preach multiple times on the sanctity of human life. So it doesn't take

1:36:03 a lot to figure it out. Sure. But I don't know. I would say 80, 85% of our church is Republican.

1:36:08 Maybe something like that. That might be low. So I will say things that just try to rrow the

1:36:15 Republicans up because I'm trying to shepherd them. I'm trying to get them to like, why do you

1:36:22 trust Tucker Carlson more than you trust the Apostle Paul? You know, so I would say stuff that I don't

1:36:29 even necessarily agree with. And particularly on hot button topics on stuff like immigration.

1:36:37 And you know, there's some there's some things I think about that, you know,

1:36:42 and and and they are all the exact same things that you think I would think about them.

1:36:46 Sure. That most people that look like I do think about them. But when I'm preaching it, man,

1:36:50 I want people, you know, I might if we're talking about that and about love for neighbor,

1:36:55 I will say some things that just walk all over people's toes because oftentimes that's what it

1:37:01 takes to require somebody to like wake up and be like, because the thing you always

1:37:06 always want to pay attention to me to is when I get this like vehement response of defensiveness

1:37:12 about something. Just as a follower of Jesus, you may want to go, Hey, what's going on in here?

1:37:18 Now, there are times where it is righteous anger for sure, you know, and then there are

1:37:22 other times you're like, man, I'm holding on to some traditions of man here and not being fully

1:37:27 submitted and surrendered to the Lordship of Christ. Race is a big one, especially in the south,

1:37:34 bro, especially in the south. And, um, and sometimes it requires, again, I'm not, I am not defending.

1:37:43 I personally, I think critical race theory is at odds with Romans chapter five. And you,

1:37:51 you either believe that you're a son of Adam or that everything's a power dynamic. That's right.

1:37:56 I don't think you can simultaneously adopt both. So, but I would just pay attention to that in

1:38:02 your own life. If there's somebody that you respect or you genuinely trust and there's something

1:38:07 where you get, you feel overly defensive, like what's going on? What's going on in me that I

1:38:13 need to pay attention to? Is there some area that God wants to do some work in me on?

1:38:18 Well, if you could just do me a solid when you're about to do that to me, would you just give me a

1:38:24 heads up? So I'm not just like scrolling through my podcast feed and all of a sudden I'm getting

1:38:28 mad because I'm focused right when I listen to you, it's whenever I'm trying to lift really heavy

1:38:31 things off the ground and set them back down again. Are you just going to give me a heads up? Can you

1:38:35 just agree to that? Yeah, no problem. No problem. Okay, sounds good. Well, Joby, we've gone everywhere

1:38:40 in this conversation. We really dug into the new book. Anything is possible. I could not recommend

1:38:43 it more highly. And then we went into some other areas that hopefully it isn't going to make the

1:38:47 world too mad at us. But is there anything we didn't cover before we get you out of here? I,

1:38:51 as I understand it, you're about to go get some, you know, well earned time off. Is there anything

1:38:55 you want to check out or talk about before we let you do that? Oh man, we didn't talk about

1:38:59 jujitsu. We didn't talk about hunting. We got more time. You got more time because I got more

1:39:03 time. I probably need to go. I got a sermon to polish up for tonight. But well, I will say it's

1:39:09 not going to be the last. This is your third appearance on this show. But if you're going to

1:39:12 be able to be one of those guys that's like up there in that top three echelon of most requested

1:39:18 repeat guests, obviously we're going to tee up some more conversations about hunting in jujitsu.

1:39:22 But for now, that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?

1:39:25 That's it, man. Hey, I'm praying for you and your surgery and all that. That's a big deal. Like,

1:39:29 in fact, our whole prayer team at 1122 and our elders and our deacons are,

1:39:33 they are praying for you by name is April 10th. Is that right? April 10th. That's the day. Yeah,

1:39:38 we're praying for you, man, because God has given you a voice and the enemy would love

1:39:42 nothing more than to take that thing away. And so we're praying for miracles. And here's,

1:39:46 here's what I want you to think about. What you are going to experience through the miracle of

1:39:52 doctors and medicine and technology. It's, it's all a gift from God because he is a great physician,

1:39:57 right? And what they would have called a miracle a hundred years ago, they call a procedure today.

1:40:01 That's God's goodness. Hey, that is his goodness, but I've already got a plan in place. I'll just

1:40:06 tell you, nobody else listen, turn your ears off. So if the surgery goes really, really bad and my

1:40:11 voice is just gone, I'm going to be the first male Christian conservative podcaster whose podcast

1:40:18 has done solely through AI voices. Okay, so I'm going to type up all the things that I want to say,

1:40:23 and then I'm just going to hit the button on the AI. And then they're going to say it. And it's

1:40:27 going to sound vaguely like me. It's probably not going to have, you know, near the charm and near

1:40:33 the flow, but I'm going to do my level best. But let's just hope it doesn't get there. I certainly

1:40:37 appreciate you, the elders and the prayer team there at church of 1122 to do that. Joby Martin,

1:40:42 thank you for coming back on a Daunted Life of Man's podcast. My pleasure. There you go, guys.

1:40:46 I hope you enjoyed the return appearance of Joby Martin on the show. But before we let you go,

1:40:49 we are going to do a quick resilience boost. Add in Daunted Life, our mission is equipping

1:40:52 men to push back darkness with content that for just spiritual, mental and physical resilience. So

1:40:56 the links I've got for you today, I've got a link to the church 1122 website. I got a link to where

1:41:00 you can go buy your copies of anything as possible. And if the tomb is empty and also link to Joby's

1:41:06 Instagram page. Thank you guys for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this,

1:41:09 please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five star review. If you want to come speak live

1:41:13 at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an email to info@andontin.life. That's i-n-f-o

1:41:19 @andontin.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for

1:41:22 everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way. Just go

1:41:26 to www.andontin.life. And as always, we want to thank the band, August Burns Red, for allowing

1:41:31 us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song, Cutting the Tides,

1:41:35 which is off their 10th anniversary re-recording of their album Leveler. The links are in the

1:41:39 description. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness,

1:41:44 keep forging spiritual, mental and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah.

1:42:09 Bye!