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1:18
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
1:39
For a long time, how did you get into the men's space?
1:57
Why is he choosing to stay there?
2:05
What culture has done to the role of manhood and how we look at manhood, but also looking
2:10
at things like cowardly pastors, not really talking to young men, saying, "Hey, you shouldn't
2:15
be having sex and living with your girlfriends before you get married.
2:19
It's bad for you.
2:20
You shouldn't do it."
2:21
Really, how that cowardice really spreads into a lot of other different subject matters
2:24
where pastors don't want to talk about abortion.
2:26
They don't want to talk about anything politically related.
2:28
They don't want to talk about anything that's culturally, politically or societally charged
2:32
and how that doesn't really lead to good things overall.
2:34
We weaved in and out of a lot of great subjects there for about the first half hour and then
2:38
the last half hour.
2:39
We get into dialed in and so again, it's dialed in reaching your full capacity as a man of
2:42
God.
2:43
Why he wrote that book?
2:44
How he approached it?
2:45
Because basically, he sets up a biblical approach for these 20 different qualities of
2:50
a biblical, godly man.
2:53
We talk about what it means to be a blameless man, like how we can live above our approach.
2:57
Also, what it means to be a disciplined man and how we can make decisions against ourselves,
3:01
which was a very interesting conversation.
3:03
When we got into a conversation toward the end there about what it means to be a protector.
3:07
He described what he said was kind of a unique perspective that puts him in the scholarly
3:13
minority.
3:14
I believe is how he said it.
3:15
And so that's an interesting subject matter for us to get into as well.
3:17
But guys, I think you're really going to enjoy this time that I had with Jim.
3:20
So without further ado, let's get into it.
3:23
Jim Ramos, I would just do my normal welcome, which is welcome to and Dawn to Life of Man's
3:27
podcast.
3:28
But we've spent the last 15 minutes getting to know each other because apparently the
3:32
technology gods don't want us to connect because here we are on Zoom.
3:36
We were on Riverside.
3:37
And at some point, we had to go through a wormhole, but you're technically here now.
3:41
Can you hear me?
3:42
Can you see me?
3:43
Yeah, we're good to go.
3:44
I'm ready to rock and roll, man.
3:45
Let's do it.
3:46
Oh, man.
3:47
I was crossing my fingers and toes.
3:48
And here we are.
3:49
We have finally made it.
3:50
So you and I both were kind of in the same spaces here in terms of the Christian men space.
3:56
It can be a crowded space.
3:58
It can be a space that doesn't allow for a lot of creativity.
4:01
But it looks like you've done this for a while.
4:03
But I guess my question is why do you even care about men?
4:07
Why do you care about Christian men and wanting to make sure that they're actually living
4:10
a life that they report to say that they want to be living?
4:14
You know, that's a really interesting question.
4:15
I was a youth minister for 25 years.
4:18
And I realized through all of that, when I sat down, I started thinking, what is really
4:22
wrong with the teenage today?
4:24
I realized the problems really stemmed from their dads, not being there or their dads,
4:30
not being major issues.
4:31
And as I started thinking about this, I thought, you know what, if we really want to change
4:35
a culture, me being a youth pastor is not it.
4:38
We need to step into a different space.
4:41
The men's ministry space is really, in a lot of ways, a space that's ignored in the local
4:47
churches.
4:48
If you look at church budgets, they typically ignore the men's ministry space, focus on
4:52
children and women.
4:53
But biblically, if you look at the Bible, if you actually do a deep dive into the Word
4:57
of God, you look at every time almost every single time, God did a major work.
5:04
He started with men.
5:05
Men are God's starting place.
5:07
So I thought, okay, we need to go back to the starting place and work with men because
5:12
as men go, so goes the culture.
5:15
And you know, we, I do believe that most of society's problems rest on the shoulders
5:20
of males, but men are the solution.
5:23
So it was transitioning these males, biological males into men.
5:28
And that's what we've been deeply committed to.
5:30
And it is a very small space.
5:33
You know, if you look at the population of America and you take the population of men,
5:37
you break that down to Christian men.
5:38
I mean, it's a, it's a very nitchy type of space and we just dove into it, just like
5:43
you did.
5:44
So I apologize you as well, man.
5:45
It's a, we're, we're in a small little area trying to, trying to do some big work.
5:49
Well, Jim, I would completely agree with you that the majority of our societal issues
5:55
can go back to men that have either abdicated their responsibility.
5:59
So you know, maybe that's, you know, within their families, you know, ditching their,
6:03
their wives and children or never wife and the woman up to begin with, but just, you
6:07
know, basically fathering children, but not, or siring children, but not fathering them,
6:11
I guess would be the way that you would say it.
6:13
Yeah.
6:14
And then yes, I think society is doing what it can culturally to stamp out the man to
6:18
say that men aren't important, men aren't necessary.
6:21
That's what the, you know, third and fourth wave feminism is basically saying women are
6:25
essentially men.
6:26
We don't really need them.
6:28
They don't really have a unique purpose.
6:30
And so I guess speak a little bit to that because there's this cultural milieu that I
6:34
feel like we're all marinating in that is basically communicating that you pre saw this
6:38
in the nineties where all of the dad figures were dopes and stupid and the mothers and kids
6:44
were always smart.
6:45
And then again, everyone's talked about that at this point, but I think we've bought the
6:49
lie that dad's just kind of dumb dad wears, you know, awkward socks and, you know, the,
6:53
the white, new balance shoes and he's just, he doesn't really know what he's doing and
6:58
he's not really like a leader.
6:59
I don't really need to lean on him.
7:00
And I think we've bought the cultural lie.
7:02
What do you think?
7:03
Well, here, you know, here's the deal in the nineties we saw, you know, you know, everyone
7:06
loves Raymond and all these dorky looking nerdy guys and my wife and I've been watching
7:11
friends over binge watching the friends episodes, I'm like, man, these are a bunch of pansies,
7:16
you know, so this was kind of what our society portrayed.
7:19
And it's really interesting though, our society has become extremely subjective.
7:23
We have a ton more information at our fingertips than ever before in the history of the world,
7:28
but truth is scarce.
7:30
Even in the news, it's like, it's like watching the WWE.
7:33
It's great entertainment, but it's not truth.
7:35
So for us, if you remove subjectivity, if you remove emotionalism, if you remove our
7:43
predisposed biases and you just look at the facts, just look at the facts.
7:49
The facts tell us that when the man is not in the home, children have a higher probability
7:56
to be in prison, to have mental disorders, to not go into the higher education past high
8:03
school or even past middle school sometimes, when men are not absent, the culture and the
8:08
family unit breaks down.
8:10
But this movement that you're calling Third Way Feminism, one of the things that they're
8:14
doing that really bothers me is they're trying to even replace the men and the narratives.
8:17
So they say like this, okay, if I'm married to, if I'm a two lesbians are married together,
8:23
that is my partner.
8:24
If two homosexual men are married together, that is my partner.
8:27
But if a husband and wife is married together, they say, that is your partner.
8:31
And I say, no, that word partner is a critical theory, woke, woke type of term.
8:38
And we can, we have to reject that.
8:40
We have to call people out on that every time because my wife is my spouse, my, she is my,
8:47
she is my, the woman I have covenant with.
8:50
We are one flesh.
8:51
We are a marriage under God that God recognizes and don't call your cohabitating girlfriend,
8:56
your partner.
8:57
And think that the same as my wife, that is different.
9:00
My wife is a special and unique person in a marriage that's ordained by God.
9:05
And so what we have to do is we have to push back on this narrative that says, not only
9:10
is the man not necessary, but you don't even have to have a family, you don't have to have
9:15
your head a household, your, the man doesn't have to be in the family unit.
9:18
Two lesbians can be a family that God blesses.
9:21
And that's just not, it's just not accurate in reality.
9:24
It's not accurate, uh, biblically and it's not accurate objectively.
9:28
Well, partner is a business term that that's what that's what partner is.
9:33
And so you're not going into a business arrangement.
9:37
Uh, if you're in a covenantal marriage, I think part of the problem, Jim, is that most people
9:40
don't look at marriage as a covenant.
9:42
They look at as a temporary contractual agreement, which says, basically I will be here until
9:47
things get too hard or too difficult at which point I'm going to bounce.
9:51
And so the, the same we see is with a cohabitation before marriage and it's always, it's always
9:56
funny when sociology catches up with a biblical ethic, but sociologically speaking, the rates
10:02
of divorce or hire for couples that cohabitate before they get married and people are like,
10:06
well, that doesn't make any sense.
10:07
You wouldn't buy a new truck it before you test drive it.
10:09
It's like what you're not understanding is yes, you're, you're seeing what it's like
10:14
to live with that person.
10:15
You're seeing what it's like to have sex with that person.
10:17
You're seeing what it's like to fight with that person to get a dog with that person to
10:19
share, you know, mortgage payment or rent payment or something like that.
10:22
But what you're also doing is you're practicing noncommittal, a noncommittal relationship.
10:27
You're practicing having no commitment to an individual person because before you're married,
10:31
which these same people would argue is just a piece of paper before you get married, it's
10:35
the exact same thing.
10:37
If things get too hard, if they get too awkward, if they get too difficult, if I'm not having
10:40
fun, if you're not fulfilling my needs, if I'm not living my truth, then I'm just going
10:45
to bounce.
10:46
And so if you put a ring on it and then you go through this, you know, ceremony that costs
10:50
tens of thousands of dollars where you focus on wedding and not marriage.
10:53
And then you get years down the road and you're no longer being fulfilled as it were, then
10:57
it's like, okay, yeah, why wouldn't you just get divorced?
11:00
Because it's basically like an extra bad high school breakup.
11:04
Does that make sense?
11:06
I feel like I'm talking to myself right now.
11:08
So statistically, this is object truth.
11:12
This is not subjective reality.
11:14
This is object truth, absolute truth, when the more a couple spends on their wedding,
11:20
the less success they have in their marriage.
11:22
And USA Today reported that the most fulfilled couples sexually are monogamous heterosexual
11:31
couples that attend church regularly.
11:34
These are facts here.
11:35
So everything you're saying is right on the money.
11:37
And here's the other thing.
11:38
That's scary, Barna researched that 33% of practicing Christian men practicing Christian
11:44
men under 35 live with their girlfriends before marriage.
11:48
That's the same number as non Christian men.
11:51
And so I have determined that a lot of people out there who are church attending practice
11:56
and Christian men really aren't even saved.
11:59
They're throwing a name out there.
12:01
I won't use the word Christian anymore.
12:03
I say I follow Jesus because that Christian word describes something that is no different
12:09
than the secular world.
12:11
So we have to call these young guys and say, listen guys, we need to call you up into truth
12:16
and out of this subjective compromise that you're negotiating because it seems to be
12:23
easier for you.
12:24
But at the end of the day, it's going to cost you higher rates of divorce, less rates of
12:29
marital satisfaction, less rates of sexual satisfaction.
12:33
And that's what I love what you're doing with undaunted life.
12:35
You're calling your calling these guys up into the truth and out of the slide that they've
12:41
bought into because they're listening to cultural and pop psychology.
12:44
Well, Jim, they're worshiping at the altar of pragmatism and it sounds practical because
12:50
we keep hearing the sob story about, oh, you know, houses are too expensive and I can't
12:55
find one or rinse expensive or blah, blah.
12:57
It's like, okay.
12:58
Well, if it's too expensive to live in downtown Austin or downtown Seattle or downtown New
13:04
York City, then you might have to try something a little bit different.
13:08
But even their parents kind of caught up in all of this is their parents are cowards and
13:13
their pastors are cowards because they shouldn't be saying because you'll hear those same people
13:18
encouraging these young people to go and do that.
13:21
Oh, I get it.
13:22
It's tough out there.
13:23
It's tough in the job market.
13:24
It's tough in the financial market.
13:25
We've got all the student loan debt for this worthless degree.
13:28
So why don't you just basically move in together?
13:31
You can split bills.
13:32
It makes perfect sense in a cultural way, not in a biblical way, not in a godly way.
13:39
And so we're encouraging this pragmatism.
13:41
And the hard part about it is because pastors, these go along to get along pastors.
13:46
These I want to be known for what I'm for, not what I'm against pastors.
13:49
They don't want to run these people off by, I don't know, holding that to some sort of
13:52
a biblical ethic or standard. And so they just like, ah, go ahead and they will be sent,
13:57
they will be taking people through premarital counseling, knowing that they are living together
14:01
and having sex. It's like, what do you think your job is, sir? Your job is to just basically
14:08
like, bless no matter what the union is. So you can get paid 500 bucks to do a ceremony
14:12
on the weekend.
14:13
Like, what's wrong with you?
14:14
Mm hmm. Well, that's, we are not, I think there's a, I know there's a movement in America,
14:19
which I won't name it, but there is a movement out there that is saying, we aren't, we're
14:22
going to stick with Jesus and we're not going to hit these other issues like the abortion,
14:27
cohabitation, homosexuality. We're going to avoid those because we could lose numbers.
14:33
And you know, it's really interesting to me because that's not what Jesus did. Jesus looked
14:36
around. He saw thousands of people following him. He said, Hey, hey, I want to say something.
14:42
Eat my flesh and drink my blood. They're like, we're out. He looked around, he told his disciples,
14:47
who's the, you're going to the only ones left. You guys want to go? Because here's the deal.
14:50
Jesus wasn't concerned about building a big people or a big movement. He was concerned
14:55
about growing big people and those big people create a big movement. And so we've got this
15:00
movement in America that says, I want to grow the numbers and they're doing it by compromising
15:05
the word of God. And God's not going to bless that. He may bless that numerically, but you
15:10
know, it's really interesting. Willa Creek Community Church about 15 years ago did a survey. And
15:14
at the time, they were the biggest church in America. And they did a survey on discipleship
15:18
and they came to the conclusion after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars that this,
15:23
that their method was not effective in making disciples shock of all shocks, because the
15:27
secret system movement, the secret friendly movement is about converts, not disciples.
15:32
And here's the thing, if you're focused on converts, then you will use a very, all right,
15:37
I'm going to go off the rails here. So let's just go off the rails. Then emotional ism
15:42
is part of your toolkit. So what does that mean? That means really emotional music with
15:49
course, course, course, bridge, bridge, course, bridge, again, slower course, bridging a different
15:53
key course, course, course, and then you build up all of this excitement, all of the tears,
15:57
all of everything. Then you get the TED talk pastor that basically figures out what life
16:02
lessons he wants to teach you. And then he finds some Bible verses to like shove in there
16:06
real quick so he can keep its tax exempt status. And then at the end, they start playing the
16:10
piano during the altar call and all that and you're still pretty whipped up from the funny
16:14
sermon and the interesting music. And now you raise your hand, they get to count you on
16:19
your annual report, but then there's no follow up. There's no discipleship. There's no helping
16:24
you to figure out how to even study the Bible, how to get into godly biblical community.
16:29
But they get to count you anyway. And so that church was one of the churches that helped
16:32
start this entire thing. The church I went to for over 10 years live church kind of did
16:36
the multi site. We're going to have one guy basically satellite it into all these different
16:41
groups. And the thing is, is you are filling buildings, but you are not filling the kingdom
16:45
of God. And I'm not anti big buildings, anti big parking locks. There's great examples
16:49
of churches that can do both. You get converts and then you disciple them. I always try to
16:54
shout out church of 1122 down in Florida. They're an enormous church. They've got multiple
16:58
sites. They got big buildings, big parking lots, but they actually take discipleship seriously.
17:02
But that's the problem with the seeker sensitive movement. If you'll get the people in the door,
17:06
but then you're not doing anything with them other than entertaining them. Yeah, I think
17:10
that movement is, is, is I think for the most part, it's dying, especially in the rural
17:16
areas. It's really interesting to me because again, I like to go back to the Bible. You
17:20
know, I, I've looked in the Bible and nowhere in the Bible that Jesus ever said to go and
17:24
make decisions. He said to go and make disciples. And it's that disciple who's going to make
17:30
more disciples. And I think we've got caught up in this. And I do, I do think there's a
17:34
lot of emotionalism. The problem with this movement is it's driven by phenomenal communicators.
17:41
Right. They're phenomenal communicators. Absolutely.
17:43
And so they are masters at, at, at, you know, manipulating the emotions of people. And I
17:49
mean, I'd like, I mean, it's, it's tough for me because I want to see God do stuff, you
17:53
know, but we have to trust God to do stuff. And, and I realize that he has called us to
17:58
steward the gifts he's given us, but we have to be very careful to never waver from what
18:04
the word of God says. And to never shrink back, you know, Hebrews 1039 says, we are
18:09
not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but through faith are saved. And so, you know,
18:13
we need to not stop shrinking back. That's the problem with our country right now, Kyle's,
18:17
we've shrank back instead of standing up and saying, Hey, listen, homosexual is sin. Live
18:23
and together before marriage is sin. Adult trees are sin. All these, these things are
18:29
sins. Abortion is murder. And we need to start saying these things because these all point
18:34
to a bigger truth. We can't shrink back from the truth. And it's all part of that. Well,
18:39
Jim, you know this, like I'm literally yelling into the abyss right now. Like the reason why
18:43
they won't go into those tough subject matters is because they're cowardly. And so let's
18:48
take the abortion issue. One of the most incendiary ones. You have pastors that are terrified
18:52
of the women in their congregation because as opposed to giving those women a message
18:57
of hope, a message of look, you were totally depraved aside from the, you know, the propitiation
19:03
of your sin debt because of Jesus, the sacrifice on the cross. But instead, they're just going
19:08
to go along to get along. They're going to not mention it at all or they'll hop into
19:11
the subject matter and hop right back out because well, we don't want to hurt women and
19:15
we don't want to judge these people. Look, I give an over an hour long presentation on
19:19
how to defeat pro-abortion arguments. And I start with Romans, Romans eight one where
19:24
it's like there are now there for no combination for those who are in Christ Jesus. And so I
19:29
say, I know there are women in this audience tonight that have had abortions. I know that.
19:33
I also know that there are men in this audience that have paid for abortions that drove their
19:37
women to and from the abortion facility because they weren't ready to be a dad. They wanted,
19:41
they wanted to have fun, but they didn't want to be a father, right? And I know that there
19:44
are grandparents here that paid for their, their child's problem to just go away so they
19:48
wouldn't have to explain to the guys down at the golf club that their, you know, cute
19:52
little innocent girl isn't quite so innocent. And I say, now that we know that, can we all
19:57
put on our big girl and big boy pants and say there is no condemnation for those who
20:00
are in Christ Jesus. But if you're not in Christ Jesus, there is condemnation because
20:06
that's how the gospel works. The reason that it is good news is that you were totally
20:10
depraved unless you have the truth of the gospel and you've repented and put your faith
20:14
in that. But like, look, I just said I'm a podcaster and I just said that in 60 seconds
20:19
and these dudes get paid to do this for a living and they can't do it from the pulpit
20:23
like it helped me. We're watching, I don't know what the numbers are now, but it was
20:28
a million and a half babies a year aborted. And at the time when I looked into this, there
20:31
were 1.5 million couples looking to adopt a baby. So you've got, you can see the Holy
20:36
Spirit working in all of this, even in the midst of sin, right? You can see God's redemption
20:41
working through it all, but we have to be willing to call people out of that. I mean,
20:45
it's not about condemnation because Romans eight one is a verse I've prayed over more
20:48
people than probably any other verse ever. But it's about calling them up out of that
20:53
sin and helping them and showing compassion. But we have to deliver this compassionate
20:57
message, but it's still got to be truthful. It's got to be based on the word of God.
21:01
Well, Jim, you know this, you can't truly be compassionate unless you're being truthful
21:07
because because otherwise it is faux compassion, right? And so look at the examples from the
21:14
Bible that he didn't tell the woman that was going to be stoned to death for being caught
21:19
in adultery. He didn't say, all right, go and continue doing what you're doing because
21:23
I love you and I forgive you was go and sin no more. It was like he he was addressing
21:29
the heart of the sinner, but also addressing the the gravity of the sin at the same time.
21:35
And look, super traditional fundamentalist people can really focus on hammering the sin
21:39
part. And it's always so interesting. It's the sin that they don't struggle with, right?
21:43
So they don't struggle with the same sex attraction. So they love pounding other people
21:46
about it, right? But like, yes, you can get super crazy on the traditional side and really
21:51
only focus on the law. But if you don't have both, you have nothing. And I feel like part
21:56
of the gym is because the church has accepted its position as being downstream from culture
22:00
in America. And we constantly look at whatever the cultural battle is and like, Oh, we're
22:04
not going to get involved in the culture wars, you know, we're just going to let people
22:07
push us back. And I forgot the quote is a quote from Eric Metaxas's latest book, Religionless
22:11
Christianity, where it's like these people basically think, you know what, I'm going
22:15
to leave some powder for tomorrow's battle, right? I want to keep some powder dry for
22:19
tomorrow's battle. And it's like, what if today's battle is the last one? What if this
22:23
is the last battle? And then it's like tomorrow comes and you realize, Oh, crap, the war is
22:29
passed me by and I never picked up my musket is like, is that really the best idea? Like,
22:33
I'm not sure I agree with that, Jim, I think you got to leave it all on the table every
22:37
day, man. You just got to leave it out there. I mean, first, you know, you just got to leave
22:42
it out. And I think there's a lot of fear, you know, in the pulpit, you know, I talk
22:46
about this in my book, I talk about peacemakers, peacemakers and peacefakers. And there's a
22:50
lot of these, a lot of pastors today are peacefakers. They're they're acting like everything's
22:55
okay and they're bringing peace, but really what they're bringing is cowardice. They're
22:58
they're cowards. And so we need it or either that or they don't believe in Jesus, right?
23:02
Because, you know, the, you know, Satan, if he's going to put his minions anywhere, he's
23:06
going to put them in pulpits, you know? So either these are, these are cowards or they're
23:11
not Christians. And this is what we've got to be, we've got to, as believers, we've got
23:15
to trust the Holy Spirit in us showing us that our spirit matches their spirit. Right.
23:20
So yeah, well, Jim, I want to get into your new book here in a second. But before we get
23:23
there, it's interesting because even the way I teed up the first question, I can't remember
23:27
if I said or you said it, but we were talking about men's ministry, quote unquote men's
23:31
ministry. And you're exactly right. Most churches regardless of size, they don't have a men's
23:36
ministry pastor or if they do, it's like their seventh job title, like they're the small
23:42
groups pastor and they're the parking lot pastor and they're the coffee pastor and then,
23:45
you know, men's ministry. But typically what men's ministry is is once a year, we're going
23:50
to do a men's event where we're going to pay, you know, Jim Ramos or Kyle Thompson to come
23:54
out there and get these guys whipped up and fired up and we're going to feed him meat.
23:58
And then then we're just going to go back to status quo and then we'll probably do it
24:01
again next year. Ah, but we don't really have it in the budget for next year. So maybe
24:04
if we can get a sponsor, we'll do it. Ah, maybe not. It's not a big deal because, you
24:08
know, who cares? I, and I've stopped Jim personally talking about men's ministry because I kept
24:13
having church leaders reach out to me. Like, how do we get a vibrant men's ministry? Men's
24:16
ministry? How do we do men's ministry? And I was like, what if we didn't try to do a
24:20
men's ministry? What if we just tried to make our churches man friendly? Wouldn't that be
24:25
better? And so like, because most churches might as well have a blinking neon sign saying,
24:29
"Man, this is not for you. We don't have you in mind." You know, the songs that are sung
24:33
are sung in a key that men can't hit. The lyrical content is homo erotic. The pastors are not the
24:39
types of men that we would follow into battle. And so we're not going to follow the dictates
24:43
that they should have for our lives. And so most men, and you know this, if we don't feel
24:46
desired and wanted and needed, we will go somewhere where we feel desired wanted and needed. And
24:51
so if we show up at church and all the volunteer opportunities are meant for the women, if all
24:55
of the ministry opportunities are meant for the women and for the children, then guess what? We'll
24:59
go to the shooting range. Guess what? We'll go play some pickup basketball. Guess what? We'll get
25:03
ready for our third fantasy football draft. We're not going to sit there and be subjected
25:07
to the abuse that you give us on Father's Day when you haven't spent the other 364 days of the year
25:13
trying to help us be the heads of our households and to catechize our family. So what do you think
25:18
about this shifting to saying, "Hey, let's make our churches more man friendly as opposed to worrying
25:23
about quote-unquote men's ministry?" I think you need a healthy dose of both, but it's interesting.
25:28
I got a phone call yesterday from a 40-year-old army veteran who got hit by an IED.
25:37
This guy lives in the Dallas Fort Worth area in Texas, missing his middle finger,
25:41
had a great conversation with him. He said, "Hey, Jim," and he connected with me through a fitness
25:45
app that I teach through, a secular fitness app. And he said, "I want to find a church,
25:50
but what am I looking for?" All these churches are filled with guys I would never follow. He's
25:55
quoting you. He's quoting you verbatim. And I said, "Well, okay, there are churches around,
26:01
but you've got to look for certain things." And I shared the man friendly thing. I said,
26:06
"You've got to look for churches that are dark when you walk in. It has a darker feel because men
26:10
like to feel we're like hunting dogs. We like a closed, tight and closed space where we can be
26:16
shoulder to shoulder, not eye to eye. It's got to be half. Make sure the temperature is low
26:20
in the room, not 80 degrees. Make sure there's nothing pink or floral in the foyer."
26:25
And this guy up front, he's dressed like a man, dressed like you address, speak your language,
26:30
preach the Bible. And if the music is at all not biblical, and I'm talking about like Matt Mars song,
26:36
you know, I feel us moving to the rhythm of your grace. I'm intoxicated in our secret space. I'm
26:41
like, "Whoa, whoa, what?" Or, you know, the whole "Heavenbeats Earth" like a sloppy wet kiss,
26:46
you know, find a place that is masculine friendly, that caters to men. And you'll know it instantly
26:51
because you'll want to come back. And people are talking about that church because that's not the
26:57
normal church. Most churches cater to the women. So you will know that church. So I think that's a
27:02
critical thing for pastors listening. You've got to make your church man friendly. And it really
27:07
starts with the pastor. He's got to be the guy who says, "Hey, listen, this is, you know, I played
27:13
college football and I'm a hunter." And one of the things I noticed about churches today in pastors,
27:19
and I've been doing ministry full time for almost 35 years now, nonstop, vocationally.
27:23
You get a guy who nobody liked or interacted with in high school. He's kind of nerdy. Maybe I'm a
27:28
nerdy spectrum. And I was a straight A student. So I guess I was on the nerdy spectrum too.
27:32
But he was one of those guys. And he goes away to school. And he doesn't drink, doesn't chew,
27:38
doesn't hang out with people who do, which is fine, which is fine. I applaud that. But he goes
27:42
away to school. He gets his degree and comes back. And now he's a pastor. But he's never had anybody
27:48
follow him ever in his life. So he starts doing a church and the men of the church intimidate him.
27:53
So what does he focus on? He focuses on the women. And this is what we're seeing a lot of in our
27:58
society. And we need to we need to change that ship. It's killing our culture.
28:03
Hey guys, real quick. Here recently, one of my family members was telling me about how they
28:07
partnered with another family and they bought some beef from this local cattle producer. And when
28:11
they got the beef, it was unbelievably terrible. And I can tell you this from experience, because
28:16
they made me some beef ribs from that animal and they were terrible. And they even gave me some
28:21
stakes and some ground. And it was basically inedible. Like I couldn't believe how bad it was. And they
28:26
ended up finding out that the person killed an old bull or something like that. And just the meat
28:31
was old and tough and awful. And that's just what happens when you don't have a quality cattle
28:36
operation that you can trust to give you a quality beef product on the back end. And that's guys,
28:40
why I want to introduce you to the official beef delivery partner of Undaunted Life,
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my friends at Primal Beef. So Primal Beef is a cattle operation owned and operated by Sean Glass.
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He's a retired Navy SEAL that has partnered with Jocko willing to launch Primal Beef.
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So what makes Primal Beef different from some of these other cattle operations where you can end
28:58
up getting bad beef? This operation is all American black Angus cattle. The beef comes from one farm
29:04
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29:10
no vaccines ever. And after slaughter, this is a big deal. The beef is dry aged and then it's
29:14
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order. It's certainly killing our culture. It's killing our seminaries. And I take it all the way
30:02
back to the industrial revolution in the world wars. The only men that were left in these towns
30:07
or small villages were the elderly, the young or the sickly, the people that weren't capable to
30:13
fight. And so if you're a pastor and the majority of the people like in your congregation are women
30:18
and children, obviously the sermon content will go way more grace and way less truth. The music
30:23
will appeal more to the effeminate heart and not the masculine identity. And so I think that's all
30:28
true. But we can wax poetic about that all day. We'll probably still wax poetic a little bit. But
30:31
we do need to do a little bit of house cleaning here because you have a new book out, which guys,
30:35
if you're listening to this on time, you have a new book out right now. It is in the show notes.
30:39
It's called dialed in reaching your full capacity as a man of God. You had to show it because I don't
30:43
have one here. I don't know why. I don't know why. Yeah, I should have sent it to you. That's weird.
30:49
Now you have to send me two. That's how this works. Okay, I would have just asked for one. But now
30:53
I have to have two. Okay, I'll send you two and I'll say you like I had or something. Okay, all right,
30:57
that'll work out just fine for me. So we'll get dialed in. So, okay, what is this book about?
31:03
Why you why now? Well, I think you're going to like this based on our previous conversation. So what
31:07
I did is I took the pastoral epistles of first Timothy chapter three, Titus chapter one,
31:14
and in those epistles, Paul is speaking to Titus who's pastoring on Crete and Timothy who's pastoring
31:20
and Ephesus. They're both young pastors growing large movements and he gives them the qualifications
31:27
of deacons or elders. In other words, he's given them the biblical qualifications
31:31
of spiritual leadership. In other words, he's giving them the spirit gods qualifications
31:39
for men who are dialed in to him, which should be the goal of every man. And I think even non-Christian
31:47
men, there are the 20 qualities listed here. Every one of these except for maybe two would relate
31:54
to the non-Christian man as well. And so he gives this list. Now the problem, I acknowledge two authors
32:00
who wrote books that were wonderful books in 1974 and 1996 that got my wheel spinning. But as I read
32:07
through these books, I couldn't, they were pulling out their translation. The translation they used,
32:12
they're pulling out the English and talking about that. The problem is these Greek words that Paul
32:17
used, words and phrases are often translated into the same English word, even though they're
32:24
different Greek words. And so what I had to do, what I did is I said, let's take the original Greek
32:29
and turn it into one definitive masculine word that guys can sink their teeth into. And so
32:37
that's what we did. There are 20 qualifications that make a man and separate a man from a male,
32:42
help a man dial in his life. And so that's what we did. We unleashed these 20 qualifications.
32:48
And my opening story, I talk about citing in a rifle and how you dial it in. And so that's
32:53
really what this is doing. It's kind of a sequel off my first book, which is right over there,
32:59
Strongman Dangerous Times. I don't like which, which finger. And this really takes that book
33:03
where I list the five essentials of manhood. And I dial it into these 20. And these are God's
33:09
measurements, God's qualifications for men. So that's why I'm excited. It's where we're moving
33:15
anything, any opinion, we're just going to take God. What do you think?
33:18
All right. So I appreciate you giving us that overview. We'll dig into some of those
33:23
qualities here in just a second. But I have a suggestion for you and for your audience,
33:28
because here's the thing that you and I both know, men don't read. Okay. So heaven and earth has
33:32
to be moved. That's why, you know, Christian publishing houses don't do a lot of men's books.
33:36
Because a lot of guys are just trying to rewrite Wild at Heart, which is basically the only
33:40
Christian manhood book that's ever been wildly successful. But that book was released in the
33:43
early 2000s. And you know, it's, it's, it's unique for a reason. That's why it sold millions of copies.
33:50
But this is my suggestion. I would tell guys that if you get this book, go to that list of 20. So go
33:55
to the table of contents. And if you like writing in your book, write in it, or if it's whatever,
34:00
so you can't do this with audio, I guess you could maybe the five qualities that you think
34:06
automatically apply to you like, oh, yeah, that's totally who I am. Check those. And then the five
34:11
that are like, ah, that's not me at all. I'd prefer to avoid that. Check those as well.
34:16
And those are the chapters that you read first, because you could read this just from beginning
34:21
to end, right? So, but they don't necessarily build off of one another or build from the previous
34:26
chapter. But I think for a lot of guys, we love to look at our strengths and we love to kind of
34:31
be like, I am that way. That is great. I already do that. And then the stuff that we kind of suck
34:36
out, we're like, ah, no, I just, we're just going to pretend like he didn't write these chapters.
34:40
So that would be my recommendation for guys. But you're the author of the book, you get to tell
34:45
people what to do. So if they are going to read this book, how would you tell them to tackle it?
34:51
To where they might actually get to the end and actually do something about it?
34:54
Well, that's really interesting that you say that because my audience are mostly guys 30 to 50
34:58
with kids in the home, and they'll read their Evan Roode motor dot, you know, their, you know,
35:03
how to, how to work their other, their, their new Dodge Ram, how to, how to, you know,
35:08
the manual for that, they'll read their new, new, new, new hunting rifle scope that, you know,
35:12
you push the dot and the button, the red dot moves down to where you shoot. They'll, they'll do all
35:17
that, but books are different. So for what, what we've done is I've personally put this book with
35:21
my own voice reading it. It's on audible. It'll be on audible release September 3rd. So I would say
35:26
if you're not a reader, listen to the book, but then as far as those who read the book, this book
35:31
was 90,000 words when I finished it. And, and I realized men aren't going to read it. So we cut
35:38
one third of the words out of this book. So what I tell guys is this. First of all, each chapter
35:44
has 10 assessment questions at the end of it along with small group materials, but 10 assessment
35:50
questions where you can go through and assess yourself based on the questions. And you don't
35:55
have to guess what your top five are. You take this assessment survey and you can tell at the end
36:00
of the book when you compare all 20 where you're strong and where you're weak. And you can go to
36:05
our website and you can crunch those numbers in and see how you measure up with 1000s of men who
36:09
have taken the test. So here's where men should start. The most important chapter in the book
36:15
is chapter one, the blameless man. The second most important chapter in the book is the last
36:22
chapter chapter 20, the discipline man. So those two chapters book in the entire book. So I would
36:29
start with those two chapters and then see what they think from there. Okay, well, let's actually
36:35
dig in because what you basically described is something I talk about a lot, which is primacy
36:39
and recency. And so people typically remember the first thing they hear experience and the
36:44
last thing they hear experience. So if you're a professional speaker guys, or podcast or a
36:48
ride or something like that, if you don't punch them in the face to begin with, you're already
36:52
working from behind, it's going to take you a while to get out of that hole. And if you don't end,
36:56
like if you end with a, you know, a thump, like a thud, like a little thud instead of like a really,
37:01
you know, punchy thump, that's a problem as well. You don't want to, because we've all watched that
37:05
movie that the, it started amazing. And then the ending was kind of terrible and you're disappointed.
37:09
And we've all had that movie where it just dragged on, dragged on, dragged on, you wanted to turn
37:13
up, but then the ending was great. Both are not optimal. You want to start good and end well,
37:18
and hopefully in between, it's not a crap sandwich as well. So let's start with the blameless man.
37:22
The subtitle of that chapter is live above reproach. And so we live in a blame culture.
37:29
People want to be blamed for everything. And they want to obfuscate away from blame. Like,
37:32
oh, that's not my fault, whether it's at work and relationships, always the other person's fault,
37:36
right? So talk to me a little bit about the blameless man and why we should shoot to live
37:40
above reproach. Yeah. So so let me just say this. So the blameless man is first because
37:46
in both Titus chapter one and first Timothy three, Paul lists it as the very first thing.
37:52
And in Greco Roman world, the way they ordered things was greatly, deeply important. In other words,
38:00
if you read the list of the disciples, it starts from the most prominent Peter, and then the other
38:06
three that the other two that Jesus hung out with the most, James and John goes down to Andrew,
38:11
and down the line. And the last one listed as Judas Iscariot. So everything, whenever you read
38:16
the Bible, you've got to look at how things are ordered. That tells you the value that is put on
38:21
them in that culture. So the fact that Paul wrote this with the blameless man living above reproach
38:27
as first, it tells you that it is predominant over the other 19. In other words, it's an umbrella.
38:33
And this word, I love this word. I tell a story about my brother in this book. I love this word of
38:38
the Greek word is Anna Pilepnos. And one of the literal translations is to leave nothing to lay
38:46
hold of. And I tell the story of my brother who was 125 pounds in high school, playing against a
38:53
guy who ended up playing Kansas City Chiefs as a running back. And this guy trucked my brother
38:57
all day long, and they crushed my brother's team. But and my brother still has his shoulder. He's
39:02
always cussing, talking about his shoulder because the night he he this guy trucked him and he reached
39:07
up and with his one good arm, he reached up and grabbed the guy's untied shoelace and tackled him.
39:12
And he it took him so much energy to do to blew out his shoulder. But he tells that story today. And
39:17
I talk about men, I say, guys, what untied shoelace? Do you have hanging out there in the wind? Like
39:26
in other words, where are you not blameless? In Job chapter one, God says of Job, he's he was
39:33
a man of integrity, blameless and upright. You know, what has you hunched over in shame because
39:38
you're you're carrying a secret because God has called men to walk in full display. In this world,
39:45
Jordan Peterson says, we are the only creature that God has made that walks with our sex organs
39:49
exposed. So guys, besides Sas watch, of course, you know, so so what? So what, you know, what is
39:55
causing you to hunch over like Adam in the garden, covering his package? Because now he's hidden in
39:59
shame. That thing, you need to deal with it. Well, I think in addition to that, this this
40:06
leads into a discussion about manly community. And do you have men in your life that will be
40:11
a Nathan to you that will say you are that man, King David, that are willing to risk those
40:16
relational chips, willing to get punched in the face in order to bring those things to your attention.
40:21
So a good example of this, another shout out for Joby Martin, who's the pastor of church 1122.
40:26
He has told all of his elders, if Satan's going to try to take me out, this is what he's going to
40:31
try to do. And so here are the questions you should ask me. So so let's say you've got a drinking
40:37
problem, which he does not I'm using this as a as a generic example. I have friends that have
40:41
chemical predispositions. And so they have, you know, drinking problems.
40:45
So that would be like that man saying, not only are we in community together, not only are you
40:50
my brother, not only am I inviting you to give me accountability, let me be precise.
40:55
I need you to ask me periodically, how was your drinking? Or have you had a drink?
41:01
Or have you had an experience where you went beyond what you knew you should go to?
41:06
And what were the consequences? So you're giving someone that I've told people before, for me,
41:10
I don't have a chemical bend. I have more of a voyeuristic bend, you know, I'm more more
41:14
less full. And so like, you know, it's hard for me to not look at a beautiful woman. It's hard for
41:19
me to not fantasize about them. But like for me, I've gotten rid of masturbation completely for my
41:24
life. And so I have no need to look at pornography. And I have no need to look at all the different
41:28
curves that I'm seeing in person, because I'm not going to use that later. And I'm not putting
41:32
it in my bank bank so that I can have it later, you know what I mean? Like just just talking real
41:36
for all these men. But you have to have guys in your life, they're asking you specific questions,
41:40
like, Hey, if you looked at it, and it's not just, Hey, you're on my accountability software,
41:43
because everyone knows how to get around the accountability software. I'm not anti accountability
41:46
software. I have it, but it's kind of worthless, because I know how to get around my software
41:51
to where you're not going to get pinged. I know the sites to go to that aren't going to ping that,
41:55
right? You can just go to certain social media sites and go to the search function. And it's just
42:00
porn wall to wall, and it'll never trip even the most sensitive softwares like triple X church or
42:05
covenant eyes. It's not going to show up. So we know how to do that. So I need to not only give you
42:10
access to, you know, my accountability software, I also need to give you access to ask me questions
42:16
to where you know I'm not going to lie to you. So as part of being the blameless man, would you
42:21
agree that we absolutely have to have ride or die dudes around us that will help hold us to that
42:26
standard? Yeah, it's really funny because Jobe Martin's coming on our podcast in about a month.
42:31
And on that chapter one, the blameless man, we have a Bible small group set up small
42:36
questions. And the last question is, have you just lied to me?
42:39
That's, you know, I meet with a guy tonight who's been lying to me about his sexuality and his
42:47
wife caught him at a strip club. And so, you know, so now we got to deal with the lying part of it.
42:53
Because that's the scary part is the lying part, you know, because we can lie and deceive our way
42:58
and then we get caught in our, and that's what this blameless man is about is like, is there an
43:02
air in your life that will cause great shame and embarrassment to the body of Christ and to your
43:09
family? I mean, we look at Ravi Zacharias, right? He didn't get found out till he died. But look
43:14
at the shame it caused. Look what it did. And so we've just got to be really careful as men. This is
43:19
of the, you know, of the 20 things you can struggle in one or two of them. But if this is, if this
43:25
is one of the ones where you're failing, you're out, you're just out. This is the most important
43:29
one. This is the one that we have to guard the most. Absolutely. And the thing is, is that's
43:34
different for every guy. And so like I said earlier, we love to wax poetic about someone else's
43:40
sinful desires because I openly wondered with my, with my friends, because like, look, I can have
43:45
one or two scotches and then not turn into 10. But I have friends I can have one or two because it
43:50
almost always turns into 10. And I don't understand that. But I've also talked to guys that don't have
43:55
the lustful predisposition that I had, right? It's not that they've never masturbated or never
43:59
looked at porn, but they're not like so desirous of that activity that it yanks them in that direction,
44:05
right? No pun intended, but we need to go ahead and get to the very end as well. And then we'll
44:09
come back to towards the middle, but the discipline man, the discipline man. So that's the end. So
44:14
those are the bookends you talked about the subtitle is make decisions against yourself,
44:20
make decisions against yourself, which is interesting. So go.
44:22
So it's interesting, Kyle, because this chapter, when I wrote it, it was the wise man.
44:27
I wrote the entire chapter because I'm looking at this word sophron, the Greek word sophron,
44:33
and William Barkley and his commentaries behind me up here over here on the left,
44:37
he was so he was so frustrated with this word. Commentators say that has no translation.
44:43
But if you look at it, it literally means safe mind. So I wrote this chapter,
44:49
Hey, this man is a man of wisdom. And I realized I'm going through the book of Ecclesiastes verse
44:54
by verse right now. And I'm journaling every single verse. And I realized Solomon was an idiot.
44:59
I mean, he did some of the dumbest, most unreal, really smart idiot. Yeah, I mean,
45:04
I'm like, you had a thousand wives, bro, I can't even handle one. And so, and so, but what I'm saying
45:09
here is you can be a wise man. And you can still be a train wreck. Yeah, I've just seen it. So I
45:17
just felt like the wise man was not the was not appropriate. A man who has the ability, and I played
45:22
sports. I'm a chaplain for college football team. You hear phrases like this all the time, keep your
45:27
head in the game, lock it down. These are all phrases that we use to describe sophron. It's the guy
45:33
who has a, he has a safe mind. He can keep things locked into his mind and make decisions
45:40
against what he wants to do, right? You know, pornography and masturbation are
45:45
fun in the short term, but the man who has sophron has the ability to forsake the immediate
45:53
for the ultimate, right? I hate working out. I did a 50 pound, a 50 pound sandbag on my backpack.
45:59
I did four mile ruck yesterday. I hated it every mile I stopped with my wife. We did like squats
46:04
or lunges. I hated it sucked. But that decision that I made against myself is going to benefit me
46:12
ultimately. And I look at a lot of guys who are 58 years old and they're like, wait, you can
46:16
rep out 10 pullups and chin ups. Yes. Whoa, whoa, but you weigh 250 pounds. So I mean, what I'm saying
46:21
is in that area of health, I've been able to make decisions against myself. And so that, so if you
46:28
can be, you can be a blameless man. But if you don't have the ability to make decisions against
46:33
yourself, in the end, you're going to come to ruin because in the end, that is the loose shoestring.
46:38
So I had to book in that chapter with that, with that chapter, because it's vital for a man to be
46:44
a blameless man. Yeah, I love, I love that make decisions against yourself because,
46:49
so people don't understand. I know you will understand, but people don't understand. They're
46:53
like, Kyle, you say that you, you hate working out, but you do it all the time. Help me understand.
46:59
I'm like, because it's what's required of me. Like, if I want to be healthy, if I want to be strong,
47:04
if I want to be explosive, if I want to age well, if I don't just want a long lifespan,
47:08
but I want a long health span, part of that is eating real food that, you know, doesn't, you know,
47:15
come from the middle of the grocery store, maybe comes from the edges, you know, food that I've
47:18
killed myself, but also has to do with how I use my body. Now there are different sides of that,
47:22
because I'm 38 years old, but I also know that I'm not chasing anybody. I lift alone in my garage,
47:28
and so I'm not trying to, you know, impress my gym crush or, you know, that my workout partner,
47:31
something like that. And so doing certain modalities at certain weights or at certain speeds are
47:36
useless for longevity, and I'm focusing on longevity. But the other thing about this that I would add,
47:41
and I use, I talk about this all the time, is pre-decision, not just decision, but pre-decision.
47:47
So when I woke up this morning, Jim, there was no question as to what was going to happen. I was
47:51
going to exercise, you know, unless I woke up and my arm was on the floor, then it's like, all right,
47:55
well, I guess I can't binge today, right? But I've pre-decided. I'm not waiting for the moment to
48:01
show up for me to, to decide if I'm going to, to do this thing. And I want to actually take that
48:06
pre-decision discussion into what you talk about in chapter eight, which is the protector. So that's
48:11
the, that's chapter eight, the protector never start a fight, finish it. Here's an interesting,
48:16
so I would say for pre-decision, I would say negotiation. Don't negotiate. Negotiation. If
48:22
you negotiate, you're going to lose every time you decide and you make it happen.
48:25
Right. Just look at yourself as a terrorist and we don't negotiate with terrorists, okay? And so,
48:29
like, because you're definitely going to do the thing that's going to destroy you and everyone
48:32
around you out as a terrorist would. But with the protector chapter, never start a fight,
48:37
finish it. Here's one of my biggest issues. So I talk about jujitsu all the time on my show,
48:41
I talk about learning out of fight, I talk about being a weapon, talk about concealed carry,
48:44
make sure that you're dangerous with, with knives and firearms. But if you get in a fight in an
48:48
airport or while you're on vacation, you should be able to use your paws to get them on somebody
48:53
and to take care of an issue, at least long enough for help to arrive. Now, a lot of guys have started
48:57
training jujitsu, Muay Thai, Western boxing because of my show, because my Adam, it's about not only
49:04
being good for you physically from exercise, it's good for you mentally, but it's actually a,
49:08
a skill that can be transferred to real life. You can't transfer the skill of chipping a ball
49:12
into the green from 150 yards into real life. That's only good in a golf context.
49:17
But so many men, especially big guys, they're like, ah, I'm big. So if something were to happen,
49:23
I'm just going to big guy my way out of it. But I know better, I've seen six foot five,
49:28
250 pound men being held down by five foot six, 150 pound men. And the small guy is just literally
49:35
toying with them. I try to explain it to people. I'm like, look, when I, because I'm, I'm a purple
49:39
bell, hopefully going to be a brown belt soon. But whenever I roll with someone who's never
49:44
rolled before, it's like I'm rolling with a child and people don't understand that. But I'm like,
49:48
that's, that's essentially what's happening here. Like you're basically a baby, but so many men
49:53
are not doing what it actually takes to be a protector. They think if someone breaks in in the
49:58
middle of night that they're just going to see red and react. It's like, no, you're going to see
50:01
red and you're going to freak and die because you haven't done the training. You haven't
50:05
predecided. You haven't even predecided that you would kill somebody to protect your wife and children.
50:09
So how in the world would you expect to in the moment to negotiate with yourself and come out
50:13
with a positive settlement? So throw on that a little bit. So when you say C red, are you talking
50:17
about Jeff Cooper's red? Is that what you mean by C red? Jeff Cooper's red readiness codes?
50:22
No, no, no, I'm talking about they're going to like C rage. Like I'm going to see red and I'm just
50:27
going to err and I'm going to overtake this man trying to hurt my family. So I'm talking about it
50:31
like literally. Yeah, they think they're going to see red. Yeah. Yeah. Jeff Cooper has fought four
50:36
colors of readiness, white, yellow, orange, and red. And red is when you you have the altercation.
50:42
And the guy that you're talking about never sees red. He's running it. He's running away from it.
50:46
But I hear you're saying that's why I wanted the clarification. So so I will just warn you right
50:50
now. This is the most controversial chapter I wrote. I take what I think is a scholarly minority view.
50:59
So I'm just warning you on this. Okay. So what I do is I take the discourse where Jesus said,
51:05
turn the other cheek. We're 11 times Jesus used the pronoun you or you were. And I came up with three,
51:12
you know, window, window, window, use the shield, window, use the sword, window, get on the cross.
51:16
So my scholarly minority of you is this and here's I don't and I think you'll probably agree
51:20
with this, but I am definitely in the scholarly minority, I think. So if Jesus never had to tell
51:29
the disciples, you know, to defend the weak and the powerless, that was mentioned over 250 times
51:35
in the Old Testament, right? So when Jesus talked about turning their cheek, he used the word you
51:40
and your just because he did that, that implies he knew that these guys, he did not have to tell
51:47
them to protect the unborn, protect the weak, protect the helpless. He knew that they would do
51:53
that, right? These Jewish people are little angry fighters. I mean, if you look at them in the history
51:59
of our world, they've always been fight with somebody. They are just a, they are just violently,
52:04
brutally violent nation, they always have been, they always will be. So he did not have to tell
52:09
them to defend the powerless. That makes sense. So I need to, when that happens, he knew it was
52:16
implied. That's why he used the word you and your that they would do it. So he didn't have to talk
52:20
about it. So what happens if somebody attacks me, right? If somebody attacks somebody else,
52:26
I have to buy biblical mandate, step into that situation and I need to protect the innocent,
52:33
right? I'm going to step in and I'm going to protect the innocent.
52:36
Now, here's where I feel like I'm in the scholarly minority. If somebody comes after me,
52:43
if you come after me, you know, Jesus said, turn the other cheek, right? Go an extra mile. If you come
52:49
after me, the scholarly majority would say, let him slap you, give him the other cheek.
52:57
I think that Jesus was not saying that. I think what I believe this, here's what I believe,
53:03
and this one's put me in the scholarly minority. I think this is also why a lot of men don't like
53:07
going to church. If you come after me, I have a biblical mandate. I'm a steward of my time,
53:15
talents and resources. God has given me a life to steward. And if you come after me to try to hurt
53:21
my life and the stewardship God has given me, you're going to be in trouble, bro, because I'm not
53:28
going to let you do it. I'm going to I'm going to defend myself and steward my body. And then the
53:33
third thing I talk about in this chapter is this, there is a time, however, and this is where the
53:40
alpha guys kind of get tweaked because you can be an alpha guy when it comes to your physical
53:45
strength and you can be a complete pansy when it comes to Jesus. And we see this, we see this
53:52
with a lot of our special ops guys. And so what I tell guys is this, if Jesus if somebody is coming
53:58
after you and they want to kill you because of Jesus, get on the cross badge of honor. I mean,
54:04
I want to I want to be persecuted for my faith. The problem in America is we don't we don't really
54:09
want to be persecuted. So we are gutless cowards. So in my book, I say, Hey, when is the time to get
54:15
on the cross when somebody is persecuting you for Jesus? When is the time to bring the shield when
54:20
somebody is hurting the helpless or defenseless? When is the time to bring the sword? If you're
54:24
going to come after me to hurt me, I've got a steward my body. So it puts me in the scholarly
54:30
minority. And it makes this chapter probably the most controversial in the book, in my opinion.
54:34
Right. Well, it's interesting you talk about it being the minority. So let's, I'll read the
54:38
passage that we're discussing Matthew five 38 through 40. You have heard it said I for an
54:43
eye and tooth for a tooth, but I tell you do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the
54:47
right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your
54:52
shirt, hand over your coat as well. So here's an interesting thing that says that I apparently
54:57
I'm in the minority as well. Because if if I slap you on the right cheek, I'm going to have to use
55:04
my right hand in order to do that, right? But how we can know that Jesus was talking about verbal
55:11
slides and not physical slides is because you would have, I actually said that wrong, if I'm
55:17
going to slap you on your right cheek and use my right hand, which everyone's right handed,
55:21
I would have to backhand you, right? And that is a corollary or a an anecdote that would show if I
55:30
hit you with the back of my hand, that is akin to a verbal slight. Okay, because if I smack you
55:36
with my right hand, open hand smack, I'm hitting you on your left side. This may seem like we're
55:40
splitting hairs here, but this is very important. So that leads me to believe and has led other
55:44
scholars to believe that Jesus is talking about verbal slights that if somebody verbally slights
55:50
you and they hit you across the face, they're hitting you with the back of their hand. So give
55:54
them another opportunity with the other cheek. So I because I went into this whole rabbit hole,
56:00
because I was debating this anti gun Christian pacifist activist guy. And I, you know, I was
56:05
trying to destroy his arguments, which was incredibly easy, but it was basically like, why would Jesus
56:10
use these examples about, you know, hey, going by a sword? Why would he use these examples of the
56:14
strong man being bound? Why would he use these examples? Why would he violently clear the temple
56:20
of not only animals, but also people? Why would he do that if it wasn't prescriptive in certain
56:26
situations? Now the problem is, and you already know this is that you will take guys that will look
56:31
at, you know, Jesus overturning the tables and violently clearing the temple and be like, well,
56:36
I just need to walk around with my whip out at all times ready to kill people. It's like, no,
56:40
that's not it either. But there are moments when that is righteous, and exactly what you should be
56:46
doing. But that that's kind of like we're a chapter like this is you're going to get people that
56:50
disagree, but it's going to be because of their priors. And what they already believe that their
56:54
prejudice is as it pertains to the subject matter that they're not going to allow for you to push
56:58
them one way or another. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, and what I'm sure, yeah, because I'm a
57:02
just war guy that I'm I would there's four views of violence in the church history, and I'm a just
57:06
war guy. And so there are here's here's what I'm trying to, I'm trying to really poke the bear on
57:12
this one. I'm really addressing the guys that are hiding behind cowardice, and they're using
57:18
theology to do it. Yes. So if you're just a gutless coward, and you're not going to defend that little
57:23
kid who's getting who's getting beat up by somebody that you're just a gutless coward. Here's the other
57:28
thing too. In our world, Kyle, most of the bullies today are online. Sure. They're online bullies. And
57:34
so, you know, are you going to sit there and let you know, so we've got to be, you know, we so
57:38
back then it was a physical thing. And today it's it's mostly not a physical thing. But nonetheless,
57:43
if somebody's going to hurt the innocent, or they helpless, I'm going to come in and bring the shield,
57:49
and I'm going to bring it hard. Like I just I was downstairs yesterday, there's a there's a school
57:54
down below me. And it's got about 70 kids in it. And I walked in there and they all looked at me
57:58
because they just started yesterday. And the teacher goes, come in here, Mr. Jim. And I walked
58:01
into the kids are like, you know, I'm a big guy, man. They're like wanting to cry when they see me.
58:06
And she said, now this is Mr. Jim. I know he looks scary. And she said this, she said, but he's a
58:11
protector. Yeah. And I thought, you know what, that's exactly right. Because listen, I'm not going to
58:16
start the fight. But if somebody comes in and hurts a little kid, I'll guarantee you I'll finish it.
58:21
Well, and Jim, like there's a quote that I keep on the background on my phone. It's lying for them,
58:26
lamb with them. And so that's basically a reminder for my family to be to make sure the lines available,
58:31
but to never show it to him. Because you know this to be true. That if your wife and children,
58:35
or if those kids in that classroom, if they didn't think the lion was available, they're going to
58:40
be insecure. They're going to be terrified. But if all they ever see is lying, then they're going to
58:44
be destroyed. They're going to be anxious, right? Like this. So you don't want to do that. But there's
58:48
no virtue, like this is a Jordan Petersonism, but it's like, there's no virtue in a man that's not
58:54
dangerous. Because if you're incapable of violence, that doesn't make you virtuous, that makes you
58:58
worthless. And so that's, you know, we could get into the whole definition of meekness and
59:02
different things like that. But I remember when this happened, there was a a rape that occurred
59:07
on a train in Philadelphia. And when the train went to the stop, and you know, the police were
59:13
there, and the whole situation was basically already over, there were a bunch of people that
59:17
went up to the police officers and volunteered their phones as evidence, because as opposed to
59:22
interceding and stopping the rape, the forceful violent penetration of this image bearer of God,
59:27
they pulled out their phones, and they called the police, and they took video, right?
59:32
And so the funny thing about that scenario, it's not funny, it's funny in a Macabre way,
59:37
is that you had pacifistic pastors, pacifistic individuals that said, why didn't somebody
59:45
try to help that person, to which I would ask them, what were they supposed to do,
59:50
pacifistic pastor, were they supposed to start a Bible study, were they supposed to surround them
59:54
into a prayer circle? Like, no, in that moment, it's too late for that. We're not going to pray
1:00:00
for that person, or we're going to do it as we put our hands on them to remove them from that
1:00:06
violent situation, because in order to protect the innocent, darkness never stops itself, Jim,
1:00:12
like mass shooters, right? The only times they kill themselves is once they're cornered,
1:00:17
once they're like, all right, it's either going to be dying by my bullet or the police's bullet,
1:00:21
I choose mine. It's a, it's a narcissistic final move, and they're satanic worthless life, right?
1:00:28
But why do why do we have to have good guys with guns? It's because bad guys with guns don't stop,
1:00:34
they don't just get bored and stop killing people. And so in that situation, that rapist
1:00:38
is not going to stop until they have reached sexual climax. And so that is my responsibility
1:00:43
in that moment to intercede, but to these pacifistic pastors, it's like, sorry, you don't get to play
1:00:48
both sides. You don't get to castigate people as cowards when you yourself holds to the cowardly
1:00:52
ideology. Well, it's really interesting. In the book, I say this, the world that you interact with
1:01:00
should be safer, feel safer, should feel safer, because you are in it. And I heard another phrase,
1:01:05
I thought this was really good. I don't can't remember where I heard it. But somebody once said,
1:01:09
the saddest day of a man's life is when he realizes he's no longer dangerous. Now you're 38, I'm 20
1:01:15
years older than you. So it's, it's not, it's not as easy as it used to be for me. So, but I see guys,
1:01:23
I see guys at my age, I went to my 40th class reunion, I see guys walk in the room, and they're
1:01:27
just like, I'm like, man, you're, you're not dangerous. You're not dangerous anymore. And so
1:01:31
that's a sad day. And so I want to feel like when I walk into the room, everyone around me is safer.
1:01:37
I mean, when I position myself in a restaurant, I position myself to see the whole restaurant,
1:01:42
everywhere, when I was working with my wife yesterday, I'm walking on the street side,
1:01:46
everything I do, I do as a protector, so that the world in which I operate, and you hear this
1:01:52
word, you hear this buzzword out there all the time, it bothers me on some level, but I don't feel
1:01:55
safe. Well, the world isn't safe. But, but if I'm in the world that you're in, you should feel safer
1:02:02
because I'm there. And if you don't feel safer, trust me that you are safer. Even if you don't know
1:02:07
who I am, you're safer because I'm in that restaurant. Absolutely. And it's not just about mindset.
1:02:12
It's about, you know, pre deciding and doing the training because, you know, people have asked like,
1:02:16
hey, Kyle, you're, you know, you're 38. Like, why do you work out so hard? Why do you train so hard?
1:02:21
Why do you do all these things? And so I kind of picked this up from somebody else. I wish I could
1:02:24
give him credit, but it's like, I have a four year old son and a two year old son. Okay. And one day
1:02:29
it's coming. One of my sons is going to tell another kid, my dad can beat up your dad, and I want to
1:02:35
make sure they're not lying. Okay. And so like, that's, that's how I'm going to train. I'm, and,
1:02:41
you know, you heard this thing, you know, Toby Keith, may he rest in peace, you know, great okay,
1:02:44
don't let the old man in that song you recorded just before he died. Okay, that is also my job.
1:02:50
I don't want to let the old man in because we get to choose that for the most part. Now, if you
1:02:55
get a debilitating disease or get into an accident, that's something that you did not get to choose.
1:03:00
I'm so sorry that happened to you. But for the majority of the rest of us, we get to choose
1:03:04
whether or not we stay dangerous and stay ready. You know, as we move forward in the future, go
1:03:09
ahead. You look like you want to just laugh and I was gonna say, well, my theme song of Toby's is
1:03:13
I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I was. Yeah, hey, that's the way to do it. That's
1:03:19
why country music is three chords in the truth for a reason. But hey, we're running out of time here.
1:03:25
So I'll make this last question of the day. So obviously we've got the book. It's there in the
1:03:28
show notes. So what's next for you? So you've been in ministry for multiple decades. Obviously,
1:03:33
it doesn't look like you're getting tired of it and doesn't seem like you're slowing down. What's next?
1:03:36
Honestly, we've been praying a prayer. I started hunting ducks in 1995. I learned how to call ducks
1:03:42
by Phil Robertson didn't even know Willie existed by just had Willie on the podcast about a month ago.
1:03:47
And I've been praying this duck dynasty prayer forever that God, if you can take a guy who was
1:03:52
biting the brains off and in the on ducks to kill him and making these duck column videos. And if
1:03:57
you can make him a household name for for Jesus, surely you can do that with our ministry. So our
1:04:02
thing is we're just gonna keep charging until we see this culture change and transformed by you
1:04:07
and me and all the other guys in our space who are who are done with a pendulum swing and we're
1:04:12
swinging it back the other way. I have I wrote a I wrote an obituary about 20 years ago. I'm actually
1:04:18
doing a mission development seminar this Friday for anybody who pre orders this book. And we're
1:04:23
going to write our obituaries. And it's really interesting when I wrote that obituary, I launched
1:04:27
this ministry before I ever launched the ministry. And I wrote 20 books. This is my 16th book. So I'm
1:04:33
just going to keep going, man, I'm going to keep charging hell with a squirt gun. I don't ever have
1:04:37
a plan to retire. Don't want to retire. I feel like I feel that I know I'm called by God and I'm
1:04:42
going to do God's work. And if I have a pulse, I've got a he's got a plan. And so my plan is just
1:04:47
keep pushing forward. And just and then listening to the Holy Spirit. And if God says I want you to
1:04:52
do a radio show, do radio show, baby, he wants me to do a movie show, I'll do a movie, whatever God
1:04:56
wants, I'm going to do, but we're going to keep doing this until we reach and change this culture.
1:05:00
All right, Jim, that's all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:05:05
Nope, just maybe about 290 pounds on the bench press in a workout today.
1:05:10
All right, don't, don't blow that shoulder out. All right, Jim, thanks for coming on. All right,
1:05:14
man. There you go, guys. Hope you enjoyed my time with Jim. But before we let you go,
1:05:17
we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life for Mission is equipping
1:05:20
men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual mental and physical resilience.
1:05:24
Two links for you today. I've got a link to the men in the arena website. So you can
1:05:27
check out everything that Jim's doing there. And also an Amazon link to where you can buy your
1:05:30
copy of dialed in. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever you're listening to this,
1:05:34
please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five star review. If you want me to come speak live
1:05:39
at your event or on your podcast, you shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. That's i-n-f-o
1:05:44
@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for
1:05:48
everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
1:05:51
Just go to www.undaunted.life. And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing
1:05:56
us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua,
1:06:00
which is off their self-titled debut album on Face Down Records. The links are in the description.
1:06:05
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual,
1:06:11
mental, and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:06:30
[Music]