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[MUSIC]
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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
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I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
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All right, guys, we got a special guest on the podcast today.
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His name is Jeremy Treat, so he is a pastor, author, and professor.
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He's a pastor for preaching and vision at reality LA in Los Angeles, California.
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He's also an adjunct professor of theology at Biola University.
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So he is the author of a few books.
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So one is Seek First, How the Kingdom of God Changes Everything.
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The Crucified King, Atonement and Kingdom in Biblical and
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Systematic Theology.
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And then this book here, which is the thing that is a scaffolding for
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our conversation today, the Atonement in Introduction.
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So this book is part of crossways, short studies in System Act Theology series,
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which is designed to equip the church to faithfully understand, love,
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teach, and apply what God has revealed in scripture about a really a variety of
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theological topics.
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And so today we really bounced around quite a bit.
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But this guy, Group in Alaska,
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grew up going to church, but didn't become a Christian until later in life.
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His parents moved to Seattle and then he ended up settling in California,
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where he is a pastor now in Hollywood.
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So we talk a little bit about that.
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We talk about how mere Christianity and how the works of C.S.
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Lewis really led him to have a thirst and appetite for studying theology.
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And then we take a deep dive into the Atonement.
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What is the Atonement?
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Why does it make people so funny?
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Like, why does it make them feel funny, rather?
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Like, why is it a substitutionary Atonement?
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This thing that just makes people not feel good.
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Like, what are the people get wrong about the Atonement?
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But then we also got into some people that don't like the Atonement because
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they want us to unhitch from the Old Testament.
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So we talk a little bit about that.
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We get into God's wrath and how most people misunderstand God's wrath.
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And they do it because they don't really want to reckon with what the word actually says.
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We talk about how we don't live in a shame culture and how that helps us,
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or actually prevents us from being able to understand our own depravity and sin.
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We get into talking about like Ted talk churches that don't really preach the gospel
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every week and how that causes some issues.
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We talk about politics and, you know, how, you know,
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the Atonement creates a political community and how Jesus, as he said it,
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is Jesus is political, but not partisan.
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And so we really start digging into that.
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We also talk about suffering and how most Christians think we're not supposed to suffer
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because we're special somehow or something like that.
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So I really enjoyed my time with them.
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So I'm not going to keep them from you any longer.
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So without further ado, let's get into it.
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Jeremy tree.
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Welcome to a Don't the Life of Man's podcast.
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So Kyle, it's good to be here.
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It is a good day to have this conversation because we're going to be talking about
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little things today, things that don't get real deep, just kidding.
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We have a big subject we need to talk about today.
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And because we have that big subject that we need to talk about,
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that's going to take us a long time to unpack, we're going to unpack
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basically your entire life in about 60 seconds because you grew up in Alaska.
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But now you're a pastor in Hollywood, which makes absolutely no sense.
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You have 60 seconds to tell me how in the heck that happened.
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Ready to go.
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Oh, man, 60 seconds.
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So I lived in Alaska till I was 12.
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My dad was a cabinet maker.
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His cabinet shop burned down.
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He ended up buying a computer store.
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That burned down, picked up and left and just moved to Seattle, looking for a new place
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to live.
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We landed in Seattle.
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I did junior high and high school there.
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And then I did, I helped plant a church in Seattle, was there for seven years,
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ended up doing grad school in Chicago at Wheaton College and came to LA.
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I've been here for almost 11 years now and loved the city.
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I love pastoring, loved what God's doing here.
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So I have one follow up question.
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It seems clear like God communicates to your father via fire because apparently every time
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he had a job, God's like, no, no, no, not that one.
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We got to burn that off like, has he had any more fires in his life other than the two
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you mentioned?
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Thankfully, just those two.
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But I tell you what, man, my dad's a fighter and he's been through a lot.
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And he gave me, he gave me a healthy foundation in life when he didn't have one himself.
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And so I'm super grateful for my dad, he's, he's been pivotal for me in so many ways.
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Well, let's talk about a little bit of foundational stuff with your family because you grew up
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going to church, but you weren't a Christian at an early age.
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And so in kind of in my friend group, I have a lot of people that were Christians.
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They like, they were at church while in the womb and then they became Christians, you
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know, really young, you know, five, six, seven years old.
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So I don't hear from people that are in church their whole life, they're well-churched people
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that become followers of Christ later.
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So how did that kind of happen for you?
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Yeah.
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I mean, I like, I grew up in church and I, I would say the church, my parents are great.
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Like they love the Lord, taught me the word, but the churches that I grew up in when I
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was pretty young were, I would say really legalistic.
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And honestly, I learned how to play the game.
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Like I'm good at that.
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I'm good at kind of figuring out how to perform and doing that.
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And I would do that at school, I would do that in sports.
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And I did that in church.
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Like I learned like, oh, I talk this way around these friends and talk a different way around
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these other friends.
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And I, I think for me, it was honestly, it was when I realized the sin in my heart and
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my need for God's grace.
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That was like the key turning point for me because I, there was, there was a time where
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God exposed my pride.
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I, I think I realized like I was a self righteous Pharisee.
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And when I recognized that, and then I literally remember reading the scriptures and being
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like, oh, these are the people that Jesus confronts.
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Like Jesus goes hard at these guys, like he's compassionate with the tax collectors and
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the prostitutes.
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But man, he gets these like self righteous religious guys, like me who think, who thought
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that like God was lucky to have me on his team.
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And Jesus confronts him and when I, when I saw that and kind of recognized my religious
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pride and self righteousness, I just saw my need for grace.
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And what was amazing was in that moment, it was like, when I recognized how bad I actually
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was, it's like God's response wasn't to come and shame me or to reject me.
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But then I understood the gospel, it was like, oh, what I've been hearing is this kind of
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cheap, like Jesus died, blah, blah, blah, you know, God loves you.
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All of a sudden it sounded so powerful because it was, I recognized my need for it.
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And then seeing God's love.
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And so yeah, that, that really transformed me.
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So from that day forward, I feel like, I mean, not only did, I mean, God saved me, gave me
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a new heart, gave me a new purpose to live.
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And I feel like from that day forward, I've just been coming back to the gospel of like,
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how do I, how do I continue to live according to God's grace in Christ and how that impacts
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my heart and then every aspect of my life.
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Well, I think it's important to don't worry.
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We will get to later in this conversation, talking about cheap gospel and how certain
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churches present that type of gospel.
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And I mean, I just posted on something on my Instagram here recently with this guy basically
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lighting this old pastor that I never seen before just lighting people on fire, basically
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saying we don't have preachers anymore.
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We have teachers.
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We have people that like to teach you about, about the gospel, if they're not preaching
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the gospel in a way that makes it sync past the intellectual stuff kind of buzzing around
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in your head and to hit you at a heart or soul level.
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And one of the people, one of my favorite authors of all time, C.S. Lewis, he's helped
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me intellectualize my faith in a lot of ways because he was such an intellectual giant.
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And we have a book list on our website is the 100 books every modern Christian man should
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read lists and they're broken down into categories.
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So there's money and Christian and leadership and manhood and all that.
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C.S.
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Lewis is the only author that has his only category.
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So I think he has five or six books and it's his own category.
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Not everyone likes to happen.
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I don't care.
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It's my list.
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But for you and I, we share a book that had a tremendous impact on us and that's mere
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Christianity.
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But specifically as far as long as I've got my details correct, mere Christianity wasn't
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just a cool book that you read.
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It wasn't just something that had a few interesting thoughts that were worth highlighting.
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It wasn't something that just gave you a generalized appetite for Christian apologetics.
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But this was a book that really sent you on a pathway to where you're appetite for studying
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the theology became a center point for your life.
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Is that correct?
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Yeah, totally.
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And what's funny Kyle is I didn't even read before I read mere Christianity.
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I grew up as a jock like playing basketball guy.
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Yeah.
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Working weights like and I hated reading and I can't remember why.
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But I think I think it was right after my senior year of high school.
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I was 18 years old and I read mere Christianity.
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It was like, I mean, it was such a life changing experience for me because all of a sudden
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I realized how much I didn't know.
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Like I read this and it was just blowing my mind of like this, like what and what I love
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about mere Christianity is it doesn't, it's not just teaching you information.
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It makes you think differently, kind of explodes your categories and then give you a really
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simple analogy and then applies it to life.
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And it made me realize how much I didn't know and that just gave me this hunger to learn
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and grow.
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And I felt like from that point on, I was like, man, what there's so much to learn and
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what we believe really matters and shapes the way that we live our lives.
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And so I feel like God lit a fire in me that day to learn theology, to grow and learning
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to love the Lord with my mind.
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And it hasn't stopped since then.
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So I'm so grateful for C.S. Lewis, grateful for that book.
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I had, I mean, just to kind of close the loop on this story, I had the sweetest moment when
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I finished my dissertation, I was doing my PhD at Wheaton College and they have a place
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called the Wade Center where they have a lot of C.S. Lewis's memorabilia.
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So they have, they have his original, the desk that he wrote a lot of his books on.
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They have the wardrobe from his house that he grew up in, all this kind of stuff.
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And I went in there and I wrote the last sentence of my dissertation sitting at C.S. Lewis's
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desk where he wrote a lot of his books.
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And it was that idea like, man, it started there for me, that hunger to learn and grow
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and then to be able to come back and kind of honor him and close it in that way, it was
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11:07
So that's an amazing story, but I do have to ask, they had the wardrobe there, but did
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they have the lion and the witch or were those not, were those out there?
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I didn't try to walk through it, I wasn't giving it up to open it up and go for it.
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Okay, fair enough.
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Yeah, I'm going to be real honest with you.
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If I was there with his wardrobe, I would have opened it up even if I wasn't allowed
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to.
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I was just going to just to see, just to make sure, but I think you're absolutely right
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in terms of how CS Lewis challenges people to think differently because, yeah, he wrote
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this stuff like a hundred years ago, the English was a little bit different.
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He was very English and how he wrote, but you can't read CS Lewis passively.
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If there are certain books, I know guys are really getting into audio books, right?
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There's only a couple of categories of types of books that I can listen to passively.
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So literature, fiction, those types of things, history, those are things that I can listen
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to passively because it kind of presents a narrative.
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But something like this, a book that's not thick, but it's like thicker than a Snickers
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in terms of its density of argumentation, that's something that you have to read.
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And I'm so dumb, like I will read a whole page and be like, if I had to give you a summary
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of that page to save my life, I'd be dead.
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I'd be dead in this exact instance.
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So I have to go back and start from the beginning here.
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But before we get into to your book, and we're going to talk about specific aspect of theology,
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Christians in general Jeremy get really freaked out by the word theology because they think
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of Theo Bros, they think of heresy hunters, they think of these people that are just constantly
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using their correct theology to tell you why you're stupid and why you're doing it wrong.
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Or it's so that's kind of the aggressive side.
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But the other side is like, man, I'm just not smart enough for that.
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I'm not smart enough for theology.
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I can barely read the scripture and understand it.
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So theology is something that nerds go to college to learn.
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And like, I'm just not a nerd.
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I'm just a farmer.
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I'm just a guy that works in a factory or I'm just a teacher or something like that.
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I can't possibly dig into theology.
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That's for theologians.
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So what would you have to say to people that kind of have that mindset?
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Yeah.
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I mean, it bums me out.
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Theology has been given a bad name in a lot of ways.
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You got a lot of, there's a lot of people out there with huge heads and shriveled up
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hearts who are going around using theology of just kind of shutting people down and crushing
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them.
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And I think it, that breaks my heart because that's not the way it's supposed to be.
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Theology is meant to help us love God and love people.
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Theology should fuel our worship.
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Theology should make us humble.
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Like when we rightly understand who God is and what he's done, like it should make us
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humble people who are loving.
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So, but a lot of it comes back to what theology is, Kyle, because a lot of people, they'll
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get off.
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It's like, oh, theology.
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That's just like scholarship that boring, nerdy people do in libraries at universities,
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right?
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There's a place for that.
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We need people who think at such a high level that they can hardly engage in a regular conversation.
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We need those people.
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But theology just means, I mean, the word theos means God in Greek and logos means study.
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It's a study of God.
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But the way I define theology is it's what you believe about God and everything in light
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of God.
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So I believe, I have these beliefs about God and I want to make sure that they're right
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beliefs, because a lot of them are wrong, naturally, or at least in our fallen flesh.
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But then it's what we believe about everything in light of God.
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So are theology shapes the way that we think of the meals that we eat and the sports that
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we play and the work that we do?
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And so I try and give people a vision for theology that shapes all of life.
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Theology is it's simply learning to love God with our minds.
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And God wants us to bring all of who we are to them, our bodies, our hearts, our minds,
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our souls.
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And so theology really does matter because what you believe shapes the way that you live.
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And so I mean, I talk about this like everyone's a theologian.
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You have beliefs about God.
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You're driven by certain beliefs and convictions that you have.
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And let's make sure that our theology, our beliefs are in line the scripture and not
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just following a secular narrative or whatever that would be.
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And to that point, Jeremy, I think part of the dissonance is between intellect and faith.
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And there are people that think, if I have to learn this, then it's, I'm not being faithful.
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And so that leads to some very dangerous ideologies about the Bible in particular.
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And I don't want to get off on a genre conversation, but there are people that read every single
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sentence of the Bible as if it's literal, not as if it's an errand or infallible as if
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it's literal.
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And if you are a literalist, then Jesus is actually a vine.
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He is actually a door like, you know, there's all these things like that.
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I mean, even even Jesus using parables, these weren't real stories of real people.
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They were stories, right?
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And so it causes some issues when you're like, yeah, you know what?
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I can't explain it, but the Bible doesn't say it.
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So it must not have happened.
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Well, the Bible can't tell me who the eighth president of the United States is, but that
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happened.
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It's super duper happened.
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And so I think it causes some problems for people.
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To dig into something or go ahead.
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Yeah.
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That's one of the reasons I think theology is so important today is because a lot of times
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people just, they just want a verse that they can point to, right?
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Like, is it right or wrong?
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Is it, you know, they want a verse that they can point to.
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There's a lot of things that we're dealing with in our society today that I can't point
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to a verse.
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Like what does Nehemiah say about artificial intelligence?
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Nothing.
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Right?
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I think about gender and like people transitioning genders and like, well, the Bible is going
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to give principles for that, but there's not a verse that you can point to for that.
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So there's a lot of things going on.
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What do we think about dating?
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Dating is not in the Bible.
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Like there's nothing like there's no verse.
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So you end up leaning on your theology to answer those questions.
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And that's so important to be faithful to Christ in this day and age.
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I think it's also important.
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So again, like on the transgenderism thing, God made us male and female.
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But of course it doesn't explicitly say, and you can't switch a rue like even though that's
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implied in the text, obviously, but the other thing I think it becomes a problem.
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And then we really need to get into business today is that the scripture is not about us.
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I remember one of my favorite videos of all time that exists on YouTube is when inexplicably,
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Stephen Furtick invited Matt Chandler to his church to deliver a sermon.
17:43
And Stephen Furtick is sitting on stage like a weirdo.
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I don't know what he was doing there while Matt Chandler was talking and Matt Chandler
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is screaming at the people of elevation church and saying, you are not David.
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Like in the story of David and Goliath, the Bible is not about you.
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The Bible is about God.
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And so your problems at work or your relationship with your mother, that is not Goliath and
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you are not David and you are not going to go and throw a stone at it or something like
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that.
18:11
And so Nehemiah, one of my favorite books of the Old Testament, Nehemiah, I can't tell
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us about AI, but it sure can tell us about preparedness about what it means to be a man
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in a community that is prepared not only to work, but also to fight.
18:24
But again, we're extrapolating things out of it that are life lessons for us today that
18:28
don't necessarily coincide with the meaning of why that text is there in scripture.
18:33
So there that's the end of my commercial and that's that's me dunking on whoever I need
18:37
to dunk on.
18:38
But we need to talk about this book that you sent me, I appreciate it.
18:41
It's called The Atonement and Introduction.
18:43
Okay, and so it's a little bit longer than you would assume an introduction would be,
18:47
but I think everyone gets the point.
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I want to read a quote from the beginning and then we'll dig into why you actually wrote
18:52
it.
18:53
"The crucifixion of Jesus Christ is the most significant event in the history of the world.
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By dying in our place, the Son of God accomplished all that is necessary for the reconciliation
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of sinners and the renewal of creation.
19:03
But how could the death of a fairly unknown Jewish carpenter alter the course of history?
19:09
Why could crucifixion of this man when Rome crucified tens of thousands bring healing and
19:13
hope to the lives of others?
19:15
How could a gruesome execution by the state be considered good news?
19:19
To ponder these questions is to stumble into the doctrine of atonement.
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So why write this book?
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Why not write atone?
19:26
Why just write an introduction?
19:28
Why do you have this personal interest in the atonement?
19:32
What do people mostly get wrong about the atonement?
19:34
Take it wherever you want to go."
19:35
Yeah, I mean, I wrote this book because I think like in the quote that you just read,
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I think that the cross of Christ is the apex of human history.
19:44
And yet I see a lot of people yawning over it.
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I see people running after and getting really excited about other things and not really
19:53
seeing the significance of this.
19:55
And honestly, one of the things I see is a lot of people having their theology shaped
20:01
by reactionary debates on Twitter about social issues.
20:09
And look, those social issues are important.
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We need to think about those things as Christians in accordance with God's word.
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But that's how people are forming their theology is reading hot takes that go back and forth
20:21
on this or that issue.
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That's not going to be the issue in five years.
20:25
And yet we neglect major doctrines of the faith, like the doctrine of Scripture and
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the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the atonement.
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So this is like cornerstone for all that we believe as Christians.
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And I especially see a generation that's not getting a foundation theologically.
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So that's why I wrote this.
20:48
And that's part of why I wanted to write this as an introduction.
20:51
I wrote this book thinking I want my mom to be able to read it and really learn from it
20:57
and grow and be able to apply it to her life.
21:00
I didn't write this book to interact with scholars.
21:04
I want this to be people in the church who say, "I want to go a little bit deeper.
21:10
I want to learn to use the muscle of my brain a little bit and apply that to how I relate
21:18
to God and do it with a core subject like the cross."
21:21
So that's why I wrote the book hoping that people in the church could pick this up, read
21:27
it, and start plumbing the depths of the good news of Jesus.
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22:02
I think one thing that's helpful with this is it is attainable for the layman, okay?
22:09
It's very accessible in how it was written.
22:11
It does get heady, but that's why you have footnotes because it's like, "Okay, if this
22:14
particular line of questioning or argumentation is important to you or interesting to you,
22:19
well, here go read this 700-page book by some, you know, some professor somewhere, and that
22:24
would give you a much deeper dive into that."
22:27
But I think one of the problems with the atonement outside of the fact that people don't know
22:31
what it is, but let's just say with the population of people that do know what the atonement
22:34
is, they at least tangentially understand what the atonement means theologically.
22:39
We are really uncomfortable with the idea of substitutionary atonement.
22:43
And so there's a quote in your book of short when it says this, "In short, the means of
22:47
atonement is substitution.
22:49
The advice died in our place for our sins, substitution therefore is not another dimension
22:55
of the atonement, but rather undergirds all of the dimensions of the atonement."
23:00
Why do you think, Jeremy, that people have such a hard time with substitutionary atonement?
23:05
Is it because of our internal understandings of justice?
23:08
Like if I commit a crime, it's not my wife that pays for it.
23:11
Like if my child does something wrong at school, I don't get a spanking, like, you know, what
23:16
is that?
23:17
Is that kind of where it comes from?
23:18
No, I mean, those arguments get lodged out there, but honestly, I think the reason that
23:25
people downplay or deny substitution is because they have a weak understanding of sin.
23:32
If you have a weak understanding of sin, then it's okay for Jesus to just be an example
23:40
on the cross, that he's just giving us an example of self-giving love, of sacrifice,
23:47
of, you know, identifying with the marginalized, and you just need to follow that example.
23:53
But if you believe, like it says in Ephesians 2, that we are dead in our transgressions,
24:00
that we're under the judgment of God, that we're blind to the truth, then we don't just
24:05
need a good example for us to follow, we need a Savior who comes and dies in our place for
24:13
our sins to blot them out completely.
24:17
So I think those, some of the reasons that you mentioned, people get into those is like,
24:23
"Oh, how could he die in our place?"
24:25
I think there's good discussions around that.
24:27
But Fleming Rutledge says this.
24:29
I mean, she's a theologian who's functioning in like a mainline church where a lot of people
24:34
don't like substitutionary atonement, and she basically says flat out, like they don't
24:38
like substitutionary atonement because they don't acknowledge sin.
24:42
And so I think if you really have a biblical understanding of sin, it's going to show
24:46
you the need for Christ to be our substitute.
24:49
One also doesn't matter if you like it or not, like that's a funny thing about that.
24:52
Like when I hear people make arguments about certain places in Scripture that just make
24:57
them feel funny or make them feel icky or doesn't, it gives them the sads, like it's
25:01
like, okay, well, I acknowledge your feelings because that's what I'm supposed to do, but
25:06
now I'm also going to disregard your opinion because it's dumb.
25:09
And so that's the thing that I don't really understand with why people do that is why
25:13
they think their feelings come into place so much.
25:16
But there was one funny thing that you said in terms of, okay, how can we understand the
25:21
doctrine of sin?
25:22
How can we understand the story of Scripture, the totality of Scripture?
25:27
How can we understand the atonement without both parts of the Bible, that being the Old
25:31
Testament and the New Testament?
25:32
So your quote was, "The substitutionary work of Christ is incomprehensible apart from the
25:37
Old Testament."
25:39
But I've been reliably informed by super-duper turds like Andy Stanley that it's completely
25:43
okay to unhitch the New Testament from the Old Testament because the Old Testament is
25:48
kind of weird and it gives us a consternation about dinosaurs and we don't really know if
25:53
a man can actually live in the belly of a well for three days.
25:56
Like, okay, so let's just get rid of the Old Testament because I can't explain everything.
26:01
Let's just focus on the New Testament and pretend like people knew the Messiah was coming because
26:06
of just thoughts in the ether.
26:08
And so why do you think it's so important for us as Christians to not just completely
26:13
unhitch and disregard the Old Testament?
26:15
Well, I mean, first of all, it's the Word of God and that's number one.
26:22
Number two is that if you lose the Old Testament, you lose the meaning of the New Testament.
26:28
But you don't know what you're looking for.
26:30
What were the people looking forward to in terms of a Messiah?
26:33
Yeah, when John the Baptist says, "Behold the Lamb of God," what does that even mean?
26:39
If you don't have the Old Testament, when Peter says that Jesus is the Messiah, what
26:44
does that even mean apart from the book of Isaiah and 2 Samuel?
26:49
So Jesus is a man with a story and you can't understand who Jesus is apart from that story.
26:57
Part of the thing with this is when people say, "Oh, we don't need the Old Testament,
27:01
we just need Jesus," which people have been saying since a guy named Marcian in the second
27:06
century.
27:07
So it's not like this is new today.
27:09
But when people say that, the problem is that, "Well, Jesus says you need the Old Testament."
27:15
And Jesus literally, all the time, and Jesus says, "You can't understand who I am apart
27:21
from the Old Testament."
27:22
Like, I love the story in Luke 24, the resurrected Christ, he comes alongside of his disciples
27:28
walking on the road to Emmaus, and they don't recognize him, right?
27:33
So how does Jesus reveal himself to them?
27:36
I mean, he could have had lightning flash and the voice of God from heaven.
27:42
He could have, it's the resurrected Christ.
27:44
He could have said, "Guys, it's me," and the sun stops.
27:49
He didn't do that.
27:50
What did he do?
27:51
It says, "He walks through the Old Testament with them and explains how the Messiah had
27:55
to suffer and rise."
27:57
And so if Jesus is pointing to the Old Testament saying, "If you want to understand who I am,
28:02
you need the Old Testament, who are we to argue with Him over that?"
28:06
So that's especially true when it comes to the doctrine of the atonement.
28:09
I mean, the word "atonement" comes from the Old Testament.
28:13
Everybody's favorite book of the Bible, Leviticus, right?
28:16
Like, it doesn't make sense what Jesus accomplishes on the cross, and how He forgives our sin,
28:23
what kind of reconciliation we're talking about.
28:26
Like, we're not just talking about generic reconciliation, like two parties who have
28:30
been separated.
28:31
No, covenant.
28:32
Like, we have a covenant relationship with God that's broken with sin, and that is, we're
28:37
reunited with God in that covenantal relationship, and that's where the cross accomplishes.
28:43
So yeah, we need the Old Testament.
28:46
If not, we'll just read whatever we want into what the New Testament talks about with the
28:52
cross.
28:53
Everybody's favorite theological Olympic sport, which is reading into the text, what they
28:57
want to be there.
28:58
It's like, "I wish it said this as opposed to this, which makes me not feel so good."
29:02
But for the last several months here, I mean, I've been studying Matthew because we do something
29:06
on our show called The Forging Table, and every Sunday, it's me and three laymen.
29:10
So no fancy degrees, we're not professional Christians, and it's just me and three laymen
29:14
that can read, talking about the Scripture for a book at a time, at an hour at a time.
29:20
And when you read through Matthew, which was written for a primarily Jewish audience, and
29:23
you see the sheer number of references to the Old Testament and the references specifically
29:28
to Isaiah, it's like, imagine not having the Old Testament.
29:32
You would be like, "What are they referring to?"
29:34
Like that would be the obvious question that would come to mind.
29:36
So if you unhitch, it's not a good idea.
29:38
So I thank you so much for agreeing with me that Andy Stanley is a super duper turd.
29:43
You said it yourself, basically, just then, right?
29:45
So we're going to clip that out, make sure it goes out on the Internet.
29:48
But we need to talk about something else right now.
29:50
Let's talk about wrath.
29:52
So that's another thing that makes us feel very uncomfortable.
29:55
But before we, or I guess this can be part of our discussion with wrath, there was two
29:59
different sentiments expressed in your book that I thought were contradictory.
30:03
So I want you to kind of clear this up for me because I think I may have missed something.
30:07
So let me read this paragraph here.
30:09
"God is a good king who loves his creation and is therefore opposed to that which violates
30:14
its goodness.
30:15
Because of his love, not in spite of it, God responds to sin and wickedness with anger.
30:19
God's wrath is not a divine temper tantrum, but is rather his holy, settled opposition
30:24
to that which seeks to corrode his creation.
30:27
God's response to sin, therefore, is judgment, punishment, wrath, a curse, exile, and ultimately
30:35
death.
30:36
This is the penalty of sin."
30:39
So right, right.
30:40
I'm there with you, and you made a bunch of scriptural references there on that last
30:43
sentence that I just didn't want to read, but you make that argument.
30:46
But then a little bit later on in the book, you had this one sentence that just stood
30:49
out to me because I remembered that other paragraph earlier in the book.
30:53
But the sentence was this, "We must understand that wrath is not an attribute of God."
30:59
And so seemingly you described in detail with scriptural references how wrath is an attribute
31:07
of God, but then you say explicitly that it's not.
31:10
So help me reconcile.
31:11
Yeah, great question.
31:14
What I mean when I say wrath is not an attribute of God, is that it's not an essential attribute
31:19
to his character, meaning that before the creation of the world, God is love, right?
31:27
God is holy, God is purer, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in perfect harmony, union, love.
31:35
God didn't have wrath before the creation of the world because there was no sin to get
31:41
angry at, there was no injustice to punish.
31:44
So wrath isn't out, but God is holy, he's purer, he's set apart, like that's his character.
31:53
So wrath is God's response to sin in a fallen broken world.
32:00
So I'm not saying anything against the wrath of God, like in the first quote that you mentioned,
32:04
I believe in the wrath of God, I believe it's a very important theme in scripture and it's
32:08
important for understanding what Jesus accomplishes at the cross.
32:11
I'm just saying it's not something that's essential to his character.
32:15
It's his response to sin in a broken world.
32:18
Does that make sense?
32:20
Yeah, it absolutely makes sense.
32:21
And I figured you would answer some what like that, but just in case you didn't, I was
32:25
ready to defend you if you did a crappy job of defending yourself, because this was a
32:29
great quote that I loved whenever you're talking about the wrath.
32:32
And so I'll just read this quote here, I especially love the first sentence.
32:37
This dichotomy arises from a sentimentalized view of love and a caricature of wrath in
32:44
our society.
32:45
Love is often reduced to affection or affirmation to love someone is either to have warm feelings
32:49
toward them or to affirm them without conditions.
32:52
And when people in our society think of the wrath of God, they imagine a red face deity
32:56
with a bad temper and a short fuse.
32:58
This irritable God lashes out with uncontrollable rage and finds pleasure in punishing the wicked.
33:03
His understandings of God's wrath and love are grossly unwarranted.
33:09
And the thing I like, especially about that quote, Jeremy, is yes, we, of course, have
33:13
a very sentimentalized view of love and a caricature of wrath.
33:17
And also we anthropomorphize everything.
33:20
And so anthropomorphic is where you basically give a non human thing, human characteristics
33:24
and human feelings.
33:26
So no people, your dog is not sad.
33:29
He's not thinking about you all day long.
33:32
He's just being a dog.
33:34
That's what he's doing.
33:35
The animal is not giving you affection in the way that a image bear of God can be giving
33:41
it to you.
33:42
But in the same way, we tend to, I guess, downgrade what these things end up looking like.
33:51
So does that kind of make sense?
33:52
Yeah.
33:53
And I think the anthropomorphic point is important because it's hard for us to imagine
34:00
a perfectly pure wrath, because we've never really seen that in a human, right?
34:07
Like we can have righteous anger, but like I'm a, I'm a complex mixed person.
34:13
Like I've, I've always got a little bit of pride, a little bit of like whatever going
34:16
on, like mixing in with that.
34:18
And so it's, we, we think of wrath and anger as like irritability, short fuse, self, you
34:26
know, self-preservation, God's anger is a perfectly pure anger and it's perfectly informed.
34:35
It's never unloving.
34:38
It's, it's, you know, I love how God presents himself, the Lord, Lord, merciful, gracious,
34:42
slow to anger and abounding instead of fast love and faithfulness.
34:46
And so it, I think it's hard for us to understand that with God because it's so hard for us
34:50
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35:20
I think you're absolutely right. So let's move from one subject that people that makes
35:23
people uncomfortable wrath and let's move to shame.
35:26
Let me read this quote here.
35:27
For example, many liberal theologians have largely neglected the biblical theme of the
35:32
wrath of God in relation to the atonement.
35:35
Many conservative theologians have ignored the biblical theme theme of Satan's dominion.
35:40
Both sides at least in an American context have overlooked the importance play the important
35:44
place of shame in Christ's work.
35:47
We must seek to uphold the many dimensions of Christ's work and do so with integration
35:51
and balance. So obviously, I'm okay with integration and balance. I'm paying way more
35:55
conservative politically. A lot of people ping that way as well and we'll get into politics
35:59
here in just a second.
36:00
But I think overall, the lack of shame in our culture is doing a tremendous disservice
36:06
to all of us in culture because there is no shame anymore because we are to shout our
36:11
abortions now.
36:12
We're not supposed to feel shame about something like that. We are to shout about what we
36:16
prefer to do with our genitalia and who we prefer to do that with and whether or not
36:20
we want to keep them. We're just supposed to shout that. There's no shame in culture.
36:25
And if you do try to shame someone, you're seen as this evil person. How dare you shame
36:32
them for their choices? Love is love and all truth is relative in these types of things.
36:38
So talk to me a little bit more about how shame works itself out, not only in a theological
36:42
context, but in our world today.
36:44
Well, shame. Yeah, I think it's really important for us to understand this because when the
36:49
Bible talks about the cross, we in the West in America, especially, we end up going to
36:56
these kind of legal categories and usually talking about guilt and Jesus died for forgiveness
37:03
and so I can be justified. This is kind of like legal courtroom terminology. But here's
37:10
the thing. When the gospel writers talk about the cross, they do so primarily through a
37:17
lens of honor and shame. And we miss it because we're not in an honor and shame culture.
37:25
But think about it like this. Here's an example, Kyle. I mentioned this in the book, but most
37:30
people are not aware of this. When we think of the cross of Christ, we often think of the
37:36
physical pain of Jesus. I think about growing up in youth group and hearing sermons about
37:41
the cross. It was always like think about the pain that he suffered and the nails through
37:46
his hands and the scraping of his back and, you know, all that he went through for you.
37:52
Did you realize that in the gospels, they never mentioned the physical pain of Jesus
37:57
at all? They don't talk about it. You don't find it really anywhere in the New Testament.
38:02
Now it assumes it. You know, of course, Jesus went through a lot of physical pain. But the
38:08
way they tell the story, all the emphasis is on social shame. He's being mocked. He's
38:15
stripped of his clothes representing, I think, honestly, the shame of the Garden of Eden,
38:20
where they realize their nakedness. When people were crucified, crucifixion was invented not
38:27
only to physically torture people, but to publicly shame them. So Rome would crucify
38:33
people in the hundreds, and they would do it, not in obscurity. They would line up crosses
38:39
along busy Roman roads so that the people walking by would see them and mock them. It
38:45
was a type of billboard for Rome saying, "This is what happens when you mess with the empire."
38:52
And so it's about shame. It's about devaluing their personhood. And yet, the story that
38:59
we're being told in the gospels is that Jesus was doing that out of love because he was
39:05
bearing our shame so that we could live in the honor of Christ. And so that's a beautiful
39:12
truth because I think a lot of people do are driven by shame. When you hear people say things
39:18
like, "I'm just a loser. I'm an idiot. I'm the words that my parents spoke over me when
39:24
I was a kid. The things that have been done to me in the past, that defines who I am,"
39:33
that's the language of shame. And the cross tells us not only that Jesus bears our guilt,
39:39
but also that he bears our shame. He forgives our sin, and he deals with the sin that has
39:47
been done against us as well. So, man, that's beautiful news.
39:52
When I think we allow that because we almost encourage that loser mindset because when
40:00
somebody expresses these opinions, we respond with, "Oh, yeah, and we validate them in their
40:04
feelings. And, you know, hey, let's talk through that and blah, blah, blah." And I understand
40:08
there's a way of doing that. But I just got a DM this morning from a fan that's basically
40:13
some of the same stuff that you said. He's like, "Man, I'm a loser, and I keep messing
40:16
up. I keep blah, blah." And he's like, "What should I do?" And I'm like, "You know exactly
40:20
what you should do. Stop doing the stupid crap that you're doing. That's exactly what
40:23
you should do. You should feel shame because you're making really big mistakes. Stop making
40:29
those mistakes. It's like when people are like, "Man, I really wish I could get better
40:33
at running. What should I do?" I don't know. Put on running shoes and go run. Like, yeah,
40:37
when you're getting in the elite levels, you need to really maybe get some coaching and
40:42
some direction. But for the most part, we just allow people to wallow in their shame. And
40:47
it's like you should feel that shame. You should feel the sting of defeat. Because if
40:51
you don't know what defeat feels like, you're not going to enjoy winning that much. And so
40:55
I think that that's very important. And another thing on the decency side, Eugenia
41:00
Constantine who wrote a great book called The Crucifixion in the King of Glory. And she
41:03
really details everything about the crucifixion. And maybe the only decency they allow Jesus
41:10
to have was that they didn't want what she gets from her scholarship. They didn't actually
41:15
crucify him naked. Because that was the one thing that the Romans would allow the Jews
41:21
as they were crucifying one of their people is that they wouldn't strip them completely
41:25
naked because of the Jewish views on decency and in public nudity and those types of things.
41:30
But yeah, you're exactly right. I'd never quite put that together in terms of, yeah,
41:33
they don't describe how Jesus felt physically, but they were kind of alluding to what was
41:39
happening to him and likely happening to him emotionally as well. So let's try. Let's
41:44
transition to talking about something I kind of alluded to earlier, but I wanted to kind
41:47
of get back to and I'll read this quote and then a little launches into the discussion.
41:53
Each Sunday, the church gathers to retail the story of the gospel and recent our lives
41:57
around the God of the gospel. The sacraments are at the heart of this tangibly reminding
42:01
the church of Christ, the toning work and our participation in his cruciform love. Well,
42:06
I got a quibble with that because I think a lot of people join each other on Sundays
42:11
to pat each other on the back to listen to a rock concert and hear a TED talk with a few
42:15
Bible verses sprinkled over the top so they can keep their taxes and status. The number
42:19
of times people can leave the church having not heard the gospel or heard a cheap version
42:25
of the gospel is not insignificant and people get their spiritual skittles, which is what
42:30
I call them. They get the great music with the homoerotic lyrics and they get the funny
42:33
pastor guy and then they're out. They get their coffee to go and then they hop in their
42:38
car and the skittles wear off before they're even out of the parking lot. I think that's
42:42
one of our main problems right now is we don't have a full-throated gospel that is presented
42:49
every single day in most American churches. What say you?
42:53
Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think it, Scripture is really clear that what pastors are called
43:00
to do is to preach the Word. We're not content creators. We're not supposed to be tickling
43:06
people's ears telling them what they want to hear. We're not entertainers. We're not comedians.
43:12
We are heralds who have been entrusted with a message and part of what breaks my heart
43:18
is when I hear preachers just preaching like their latest hobby horse or only talking about
43:25
what's happening in culture or like it breaks my heart because we don't have to come up
43:32
with something like I'm not some spiritual guru who's figuring out, oh no, this week
43:37
what can I say to help people get it together? I don't have a messenger. Yeah, I don't have
43:44
anything that my opinions are nothing but I do have the Word of God and I'm called to
43:53
bring that to bear on people's lives. And what people ultimately need to hear is not,
43:58
hey, here's three or four things that you need to do to be a better person.
44:02
What they need to hear is this is what God has done for you in Christ and it changes everything.
44:09
And you've got to stop trying to control your own life and run and chasing after these idols.
44:15
And you need to surrender that and trust Jesus and receive this gospel and live for him,
44:21
giving him all because he's given you all. And I agree, people need to hear that
44:26
every week according to God's Word and it breaks my heart that preachers don't do that and that
44:33
churches settle for kind of taking commercialized Christianity and trying to compete with the world
44:41
and entertainment or whatever it is and then sprinkle spirituality on it. That breaks my heart
44:47
and I hope that we can return to a robust understanding of the gospel. That's where the power is.
44:57
That's where the life changing power is. Well, and listen, like, and I'm sure you would
45:01
co-sign this, I'm not hating on people that use HD cameras to record, you know, they're their
45:07
pastors sermon. I'm not hating on people that have big buildings. I'm not hating on people
45:11
that have a nice wardrobe. A lot of these pastors actually get their wardrobes donated to them.
45:15
Oh, I like, I'm not hating on any of those things in and of themselves. What I'm hating on is the
45:20
message as being, you know, presented on that high death video from that stage while wearing
45:25
those clothes because it's like, yes, if it is, here's four ways to be better at life today.
45:30
It's like, yeah, that's good, but I didn't need to come to church for that. I didn't need to go
45:33
to church. I could have gone to Instagram. Yeah, I could have just went bam and landed on one
45:38
Instagram influencer and gotten that be yourself and you can do it and believe and achieve. And
45:42
like, you would have gotten that from the beginning. I didn't need that from a pastor. What I needed
45:46
a pastor to do is to be like, if you're tempted to look at me, I want you to bounce your eyes off
45:51
of me and back onto the father. And let's by the way, talk about the sacrifice that he made for you.
45:56
Like, that's the way that that should be approached. But hey, who am I? I'm just a dude that can read.
45:59
So yeah, we haven't talked about anything. I don't really care that much about what
46:04
people wear either. What I care about is their character. Are they are they preaching out of a
46:10
place of godly character that's been purified by fire. And where they're backing up what they're
46:18
preaching. I think one of my one of my concerns is that I think we have valued gifting over character.
46:26
And so you get people who have platforms and who are dynamic. And yet they're not cultivating
46:33
the character. And so what happens is when that leads to living a double life for some kind of
46:39
scandal, then you have a bunch of wounded confused Christians behind them saying, I had an
46:46
experience with God, but it came through this person who wasn't even believing it or living it
46:51
out themselves. And what do I do with that now? But that breaks my heart. We need pastors who are
46:56
preaching the gospel. And yeah, like, it doesn't matter to me whether like the production quality
47:04
of what you're doing. I think there's a, I think there's a place to invest in that. And there's good
47:08
reasons to and bad reasons to. But we need people of God who have godly character who are preaching
47:15
the word. I absolutely agree with you. And that doesn't mean that pastors won't be people that make
47:20
mistakes. But there's a difference between a pastor that, you know, whoopsie said something
47:25
from the pulpit that he probably shouldn't have said, yes, I apologize for it later. And someone
47:28
like Robbie Zacharias, who was a sexual deviant and used ministry funds to fund his sexual picadilies.
47:35
And so it's like, these are the differences. But yeah, you're right. People that got
47:38
saved out of Robbie Zacharias in our RZIM event are now questioning their faith because of what
47:43
Robbie Zacharias did. And now they're questioning he died before anyone found out about it. And so
47:48
he didn't get his justice and blah, blah, blah. It just creates a whole lot of whole out of the mess.
47:52
So I don't think we've talked about any incendiary or controversial subjects yet. So let's talk about
47:57
politics. Let's just go ahead and dive headlong into that. So let me read this quote here.
48:00
"The politics of Jesus must be clearly distinguished from the political landscape of America,
48:06
lest one be tempted to merely place Jesus on one side of the political aisle. Jesus is political,
48:11
but not partisan. He is neither a Republican nor a Democrat. Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of
48:17
Lords. Our goal, therefore, is not to locate Jesus on the political spectrum of left and right,
48:22
but to recognize that Jesus is creating a different kind of community altogether.
48:26
The Son of God is not campaigning for a party. He is building a kingdom."
48:31
Well, Jeremy, my problem with that, though, is elections happen. And the choices typically come
48:38
down between a candidate with a blue tie and a candidate with a red tie. And those are the two
48:43
dominant parties. If you vote libertarian, you're basically just shucking your vote into a dam
48:48
like every time you do it. So congratulations, losers. But it's like, at the same time,
48:52
if you read the Bible and you try to locate a party platform, so taking it the other way,
48:59
so not looking at left right and seeing where we place Jesus, let's just take one very obvious
49:05
example, the subject of abortion. And so you cannot be a national Democrat, nationally elected
49:11
Democrat and be okay with any type of regulations on abortion. You just can't. Same thing on the
49:18
other side with Republicans, it's getting to the point now where if you try to concede,
49:22
even though Republicans are trying to moderate on the issue because they're getting all scared
49:26
of these state, you know, state reelection results and all that, which we don't have to talk about.
49:32
But when you look at whether or not the amago day is to be preserved, and image bearers of Christ
49:37
are to be snuffed out while in the womb, or to be allowed to live until God calls them home,
49:42
that doesn't align with one particular worldview when it comes to politics. It only aligns with,
49:49
or actually it does align with one worldview. And that's a Republican party. And I don't believe
49:53
everybody in the Republican party is honestly pro life or Christian because duh. But at the same
49:59
time, it's great to describe that Jesus, Hey, I'm not Republican, I'm not Democrat, I'm team Jesus.
50:03
But we have to vote and we have to be a part of everyday culture and life. So so help me understand
50:09
that a little bit more. Yeah, I mean, so at the end of the day, we have to vote. And I think
50:14
Christians need to make sure that their faith is shaping their politics, and they vote according
50:19
to their conscience. But just because we have to vote, it doesn't mean that we have to fully accept
50:28
the two party system and all that that represents in our society today. So what I mean by that is,
50:35
we have these kind of package deals where it's like, okay, if you want smaller government and are
50:42
against abortion, then you're a Republican, if you care about immigrants and you want bigger
50:48
government, then you're a Democrat. And you end up like, okay, if you're against racism or you're
50:53
here, if you're like, and the problem is I say, if if the if the kingdom of God doesn't fit neatly
51:01
into one of those categories, then I say I don't submit to the categories. Like I want I care about
51:08
the unborn and I care about the immigrant. And if you're telling me I have to choose between those
51:14
two, I say, Jesus is Lord, and I'm following him. So my point that I'm making is there at the end of
51:19
the day, I got to vote. And I got to say, what do I think I can do in good conscience that represents
51:24
the kingdom of God the best, knowing that I think both parties are going to have brokenness
51:28
within them. But that doesn't mean that I have to identify the kingdom of God with the party that
51:37
I'm voting or say that that's the only possible way. Does that make sense?
51:42
No, it absolutely makes sense. But I just did something that I hate when people do they say no,
51:47
and then they say yes, I literally just did that and it drives me nuts. But I just did it. So guys,
51:51
if you think I don't make mistakes, look at me just and I said, no, yes. Okay. But I was at
51:57
church, I was at my church, and I go to a very, very conservative, very right leaning, very down
52:03
the middle church with a passer that doesn't like to ruffle feathers like he just expods it's the
52:08
scripture, rinses repeats every week. Okay, we had an election. I can't remember if it was the last
52:14
midterm or whatever, doesn't matter. So the Sunday before the Tuesday elections, our pastor at the
52:20
very beginning of his sermon said, and remember everybody on Tuesday, vote biblical values. And
52:26
then he just went on with a sermon. And I remember being like, what? Just vote just vote biblical
52:32
values. So by the way, guys, define whatever that means for you and then vote on Tuesday. Now,
52:39
I didn't think it would have been necessarily appropriate on a Sunday morning for him to put
52:43
the ballot up on the screen and say, if you want to go to heaven, here are the people that you need
52:48
to vote for and here are the laws that you need to approve. No, no, no, like that's not it. But
52:52
when you say something that's so, I guess, vapid and can mean anything to anybody vote biblical values,
52:59
there are people that will use the Bible as a reason why we shouldn't kill the unborn and others
53:05
why we should be able to kill the unborn. And so my problem with saying things like,
53:09
like vote your conscience or voting all those things, our consciousness are broken and they're
53:14
busted up. And you did say the biblical ethics need to kind of undergird the things that we do.
53:20
The problem is, is there's not really an easy way to delineate down the middle because I think
53:27
it's a false economy talking about abortion and talking about illegal immigration because
53:32
one is an innocent human being that is worthy of protection and another is a conscious adult that
53:37
is choosing to cross the border illegally knowing that they're going to get picked up. And again,
53:42
there's a whole lot more to it. I'm painting with a broad brush. And so I guess that's my
53:46
problem is like, how do we live out as a Bible believing gospel centered Christian vote your
53:52
conscience or vote biblical values? Because gosh, it just doesn't seem very clear.
53:56
Yeah, I mean, it's honestly, it's really complicated. Like it's, I don't think that it's simple and
54:04
part of that's where I get frustrated sometimes when it's when people reduce it and make it sound
54:09
so simple. Like one, one party cares about life and the other party does it like, well,
54:14
like, I just don't think it's that simple. And I think there's dangers that we have to be aware of.
54:20
I mean, I'm I'm fine with Christians being like staunch Republicans and this and that but but
54:25
I also want to make sure that they're not making an idol out of something or or kind of like giving
54:31
people a pass on anything because they'll get something through legislation. So I think I think
54:38
there's a lot to it. I do think that the con like understanding conscience according to scripture
54:43
is important. And I agree with what you said. I think we need to vote our conscience and we need
54:47
to make sure our conscience is chastened by scripture. But I also think that we need to we
54:54
need to work hard to understand like what the Bible teaches us about politics, what it means
54:59
for our faith to shape our politics. But I also think Kyle, we have to recognize that that's people
55:06
are going to have some different convictions on that. So for example, the Bible is clear about God's
55:14
heart for immigrants and that God's people should care for and love immigrants. Now,
55:19
I know that that will even ruffle some conservative feathers. But I'm like, look, just look at the
55:25
book of Deuteronomy. Okay, like it. What I just said is just basic. But there's different ways
55:33
that that plays out in terms of how many people you should let into the, you know, past the borders
55:39
or whether you build a wall or not or the policies that you have about those are really good conversations
55:44
to be had. But if somebody's talking about it, just say if they only talk about immigrants as being
55:51
less than human and a nuisance and blah, blah, blah, I have a problem with that as a Christian.
55:56
And part of that, I mean, I live in a place where I know a lot, there's a lot of immigrants,
56:01
illegal and legal all around me in Los Angeles. So it's very personal for me. And everyone has
56:08
a story. So like it's, it's those kinds of things of recognizing, all right, there's
56:13
biblical principles that we need to agree on. God cares about immigrants. Christian should care
56:18
about immigrants. But then there's different ways in terms of policies that that plays out.
56:25
And there's good conversations to have around them. Yeah. And that's the thing is most of these
56:29
conversations should be taking place with a cigar in one hand and a whiskey in the other and like
56:34
really kind of working these things out because like my argument would be laws should lead to
56:38
the most amount of human flourishing possible that that's a super utilitarian view. But you know,
56:45
when you when you have an open border like what we have at our southern border right now,
56:50
you will get the people that just want a better opportunity for their family,
56:53
which would lead to more human flourishing. But then you also get people that are terrorists
56:57
from other countries that know we have a poorest southern border. And so they're going to be part
57:00
of sleeper cells inside this country that could end up killing thousands of us because we felt no
57:05
need to secure what was going on down there. You see, like there's always that that tug and pull.
57:10
And for me, I like when nations have their own sovereignty, because in America, like I'm okay
57:15
with us being a theonomy, not a theocracy, a theonomy means that we're guided by the principles of a
57:21
Judeo-Christian ethic, a theocracy is that we're going to force down our Christian viewpoints on
57:25
you regardless of if you want to take them. And if you don't want to take them, we're going to give
57:28
them to you good and hard anyway. And so, but you're right, it does require a little bit more
57:33
discussion. It doesn't always get to be so super black and white. So to wrap up our discussion
57:37
about your book, I want to talk about suffering because in the book, excuse me, you do talk about
57:42
suffering. You talk about how Christians never suffer without purpose, which is obviously true.
57:48
But we feel like we have bought this cultural Christianity lie that if we're suffering,
57:53
we're doing something wrong, which is kind of like an old Jewish view to where it's like if
57:57
you're cursed, it's probably like, well, you had it coming because of something you did or your
58:01
parents did, right? And so that doesn't really jive with with a Christian ethic. And so we feel like
58:08
we buy into the Jolo scene way of doing things where it's like, you know what, I'm just going
58:13
to believe and I'm just going to name it and I'm going to claim it. And that's just what's going
58:17
to happen. And so if things are going wrong, God's mad at us. And so talk to us a little bit about
58:22
suffering because you can't read the Bible Jeremy and read about what happened to the apostles.
58:28
Like Jesus has chosen dudes aside from Judas. Well, even though Jesus was chosen, you know what I'm
58:33
saying? But like, look at what happened to these people. The only one that quote unquote got off
58:38
easy was John, who was exiled to the Iowa Patmos. And they tried to kill him by dunking him in oil
58:43
a bunch of times. And the dude just wouldn't frickin die. And so they tortured him but couldn't
58:47
kill him. And he just died, you know, on this God forsaken island. Like it wasn't in the Caribbean,
58:53
it was a it was just not a great opportunity. So where do people get this idea that we shouldn't
58:57
suffer? Yeah, I mean, that's I think you get American Christianity mixed with the American dream
59:04
and the prosperity gospel sprinkle sprinkled in there. And there's this idea that if I if I
59:12
do good things for God, then he's going to bless me and everything's going to be great. And then
59:17
like you said, we suffer, which is inevitable. Everybody suffers. And then we either think, oh,
59:25
either I didn't have enough faith. And then I end up walking in shame. Or God's not working.
59:31
Like he's not really who he said he was. And this whole thing is a sham. And people are mad at God
59:39
for for not keeping promises that he never made. Right. So God never told you if you went to church
59:45
on Sundays, that everything would work out well for you in your life. In fact, God sets the
59:51
expectations really clearly. I mean, Jesus says, in this world, you will have trouble or take
59:59
heart. I have overcome the world. So I think suffering, understanding suffering in the place
1:00:06
of the Christian life is so important, because God wants to meet us in our suffering. We often
1:00:15
think, okay, if I'm suffering, maybe I'll meet God on the other side, like I just got to get
1:00:18
through it and God's waiting for me over there. No, we believe in the cross and the God of the cross,
1:00:23
that God enters into our suffering with us. He builds character, he forges intimacy with him in
1:00:31
the midst of that. And he uses it for his purposes. And that's where the cross is the ultimate display
1:00:39
of how God can enter into suffering. He can enter into the worst of situations and make
1:00:45
something beautiful out of it. That's what he's doing with our lives. That's what he's doing with
1:00:50
the world. And it all happens through the cross of Christ. And so I feel like for me as a pastor,
1:00:56
one of my jobs is to help prepare people to suffer well. It's coming. We're all going to suffer.
1:01:05
And when we do, will we allow that to soften our hearts and draw near to God or to harden our hearts
1:01:13
and rebel against God. And so I don't want to be an old man who's been hardened and bitter
1:01:21
by the hard things that have happened and that will happen in my life. I want to let those things
1:01:26
humble me and soften me to be a compassionate person who loves people and lives for God.
1:01:30
And one of the things that will help us as well is if we operate in this world and
1:01:36
comport ourselves with a kind of embrace the suck mindset. And so we live in these very sanitized
1:01:41
worlds, everything's bubble wrapped. We don't have to go out and kill the animal after hunting
1:01:46
it in order to eat it. We just go buy some that's wrapped in cellophane already for us. And
1:01:50
we don't have to exercise because we can just take pills and those pills will solve this physical
1:01:54
ailment. And then we have to take pills to solve that one that causes, you know, all that kind of
1:01:57
stuff. But if you're doing hard things all the time, if you're digging into theology, if you're
1:02:03
reading books that are stretching you, if you're having hard conversations with people that disagree
1:02:07
with you, if you're working out like your life depends on it, because it kind of sort of does,
1:02:11
like when you're embracing the suck and all these areas of your life, when something does
1:02:15
befall you, you will be more prepared and more resilient, resilient to deal with that. And then
1:02:19
where you're not where you're weak, God can take over obviously. And so I think we would both certainly
1:02:24
agree with that. But Jeremy, we've talked about last stuff today, we've covered a lot of ground,
1:02:27
but that is all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
1:02:30
Oh, man, I'm just grateful for you for the podcast. I want to encourage people.
1:02:36
Seek first the kingdom. There's so many things in our lives that we're distracted by that we end
1:02:42
up running after Jesus simplifies it for us really clearly. Live for the kingdom of God.
1:02:48
There's nothing more important than that. And it is a cruciform kingdom. It's a kingdom that
1:02:53
we enter into through the cross. It's a kingdom that's shaped by a life of taking up our cross
1:02:59
and living for and that's my prayer for people, that we would live for the kingdom and represent
1:03:03
Christ while as we do that. That's a great place to leave a Jeremy treat. Thank you for coming on
1:03:08
undaunted life. A man's podcast. Right. Thanks, Kyle. There you go, guys. Hope you enjoyed my
1:03:12
time with Jeremy treat. But before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost.
1:03:16
And undaunted life remission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges,
1:03:20
spiritual, mental and physical resilience. So I've got a link to three different books of his,
1:03:24
so the atonement and introduction, which is what we talked about today. But also the other two I
1:03:28
mentioned in the intro, seek first and the crucified king. Thank you guys so much for listening to this
1:03:32
episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five-star
1:03:37
review. If you want to come speak alive at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to
1:03:41
info@undonton.life. That's I N F O at undonton.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and
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check out our website for everything else, including how to donate to keep more content like this
1:03:51
coming your way. Just go to www.undonton.life. And also we want to thank the band Holy Name for
1:03:57
allowing us to use their music for our content. The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua,
1:04:01
which is off their self-titled debut album on Face Down Records. The links are in the description.
1:04:06
I'm your host Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual,
1:04:12
mental and physical resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.