0:00
(upbeat music)
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- This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:21
I'm your host Kyle Thompson.
0:23
Let's get into it.
0:24
All right guys, today we got a special guest
0:25
on the podcast.
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His name is Jay Louder.
0:27
He's the founder of Jay Louder Harvest Ministries,
0:30
and from their side, I'm actually gonna read this
0:31
what they do.
0:32
The life, death, resurrection, and message of Jesus Christ
0:35
is a centerpiece of all of our outreach efforts.
0:37
We are committed to utilizing innovative, creative,
0:39
and nontraditional approaches to have the greatest impact
0:41
and influence upon diverse groups of people.
0:43
For over two decades, Jay Louder Harvest Ministries
0:46
has drawn the masses to Christ through live events,
0:49
training, television, and crusades.
0:51
And one kind of major through point
0:53
and cornerstone of his ministry
0:55
is focusing on suicide prevention.
0:56
And today we didn't have all the time in the world.
0:58
There was a whole lot of other topics
0:59
I would have loved to have gotten into,
1:01
but we went deep on the issue of suicide
1:03
and even specifically men and suicide.
1:05
So we've talked about that several times on the show.
1:07
Even here, not that long ago Sarah Wilkinson came on
1:10
to talk about her story with her husband Chad.
1:12
Well, we've talked about member of my foxhole,
1:14
land, and taking his own life.
1:15
And so we've certainly talked about it quite a bit on the show,
1:18
but it's something that bears repeating.
1:20
And in this show, we get really granular
1:22
because Jay at one point had a pistol to his temple
1:25
and he was gonna take it all, right?
1:27
And, you know, it reminded me of Chad Robachow,
1:30
who the first time he was on the show,
1:31
he talked about that as well
1:32
and how, you know, some interesting circumstances
1:34
led him to not taking his own life.
1:36
And so we get really, really granular on the show.
1:38
We talk about his history
1:40
and kind of what brought him to that point,
1:42
some warning signs for all of us to be looking for.
1:44
Like should you ask people,
1:46
because there are people that think you shouldn't ask people
1:47
if they're feeling suicidal,
1:48
'cause it might lead them to suicide.
1:50
So should you ask people, and spoiler alert,
1:52
yes, you should have that conversation with people,
1:53
but then we talked about, you know, depression and suicide
1:58
and is all that a mental health issue
1:59
or is it something that some people could just fix with,
2:01
you know, getting some rest and, you know,
2:04
going to, going and, I don't know,
2:06
just taking care of their bodies more,
2:07
like going and working out and eating right
2:10
and things like that.
2:11
We talked about the disease model
2:12
and is it always good to talk about things
2:13
in terms of a disease model?
2:15
And again, I wanted to talk about
2:16
a whole bunch of other things today,
2:17
but this is kind of where we landed on.
2:19
And in the time we had,
2:20
I just wanted to talk as much about that subject matter
2:22
as possible, it's a very, very important subject matter
2:24
and also a very, very important interview.
2:26
So guys, without further ado, let's get into it.
2:30
- Jay Lauter, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
2:33
- Man, good to be with you today.
2:35
- So I want to start out, again,
2:36
I'm not really known for easing into a lot of the things
2:39
that I talk about and certainly with interviews,
2:41
I like to do some introductions
2:43
and blah, blah, things like that.
2:44
Obviously, I talked about you a little bit in the intro,
2:46
but I want to get right to the meat
2:47
of a lot of the stuff that you do
2:49
in terms of your ministry now,
2:50
and it has to do a lot with suicide.
2:52
And suicide prevention.
2:53
And so we've had some people in the show this year
2:55
that have had direct experience with suicide
2:57
is something that I've talked about on the show before.
2:59
But my understanding is that you were very up close
3:02
and personal with that particular subject matter
3:04
because at one point in your life, you had a gun to your head.
3:06
So let's start there
3:08
and then we'll back into the rest of the stuff you're doing now.
3:10
- Yeah, man, well, it's hard to start there
3:12
because there's a lot that led up to it.
3:14
But if you're wanting to get straight to where I ended up,
3:17
man, it's 21 years of age,
3:19
living in an $80 a month rent house
3:21
with a buddy of mine, no job, no car, no girlfriend.
3:26
I had all that, but I had lost it
3:29
and 21 years of age, man, that was a big loss.
3:31
And so fighting a lot of hopelessness, depression,
3:36
I grew up in a successful home,
3:37
father was a successful businessman,
3:40
the expectations for me were high.
3:42
And here I end up, it just, man, skid row big time.
3:46
And I just felt like there was no other option.
3:48
I didn't know where else to turn.
3:50
I didn't know what else to do.
3:52
And so I took out a pistol underneath the sofa
3:55
that was my bed and decided to end it all.
4:00
And man, through a miraculous series of events,
4:04
my life was spared, but I'd been struggling
4:07
with suicidal tendencies for years.
4:11
And quite honestly, even though it's not popular say,
4:13
even struggle with it a little bit
4:15
at some other seasons after I became a believer.
4:18
So let's talk a little bit
4:20
because you mentioned it a little bit there,
4:21
but there's a stigma that's often associated
4:23
with depression and mental health issues.
4:25
And I wanna provide a little bit of a caveat.
4:27
We live in the most medicated,
4:29
doped up society in human history.
4:32
And yet depression is through the roof,
4:34
mental health issues are through the roof.
4:35
And basically, if you're a kid below the age of 18
4:37
and you don't have some sort of intersectional box,
4:39
you can check or some sort of a mental issue,
4:41
you're the weirdo now.
4:43
And so I think a lot of it is a little bit fabricated
4:45
and it takes a lot of the focus and attention away
4:47
from people that really do have honest to goodness struggles
4:50
with depression and mental health issues.
4:51
But talk to me a little bit about the stigma about,
4:54
especially men and then on and to men of faith
4:57
having these type of actual struggles.
4:59
- Well, I think there's several reasons for that.
5:02
And I think there are several contributing factors.
5:05
First of all, a lot of people in the age that I grew up in,
5:10
if you had mental health issues or depression,
5:12
that just meant that you weren't praying hard enough.
5:15
That just meant that your faith wasn't strong enough.
5:17
And so there are a lot of people
5:19
that still hold to that thought process.
5:21
And matter of fact, we'll tell people that,
5:24
which only creates a bigger problem than was already there.
5:28
Because as if you didn't feel inadequate enough already
5:31
and insufficient enough already,
5:33
now you're being told that your faith's not good enough.
5:36
So it's a horrible thing to say.
5:39
So I think that plays a role into it.
5:41
There's a segment of the Christian population
5:43
that believes if you know Jesus, you shouldn't be sick.
5:47
You shouldn't have mental health issues.
5:49
And if you do, the truth of it is you're to blame for it.
5:52
Now, that's not true.
5:54
I mean, you wouldn't say that, I'll use COVID.
5:57
You wouldn't say to somebody that had COVID,
5:59
well, man, you have COVID because your faith
6:01
isn't strong enough.
6:02
You have COVID because you didn't pray enough.
6:04
No one would say that or the flu or any other ailment.
6:08
But when it comes to mental health issues,
6:10
people tend to categorize that.
6:12
And then there's a whole nother element to that
6:14
where a lot of people, especially men,
6:17
I mean, let's back up here.
6:18
First of all, men don't even like to admit
6:20
ask for directions because men don't like to admit
6:23
that they need help.
6:24
And so men are even less likely to admit
6:28
when there's mental health issues.
6:31
And let's just be real today.
6:33
You're really gonna be unlikely to do so in church
6:36
because the truth of it is while church is supposed
6:39
to be a place that you can be real and be transparent,
6:42
oftentimes it's a place you're gonna be judged worse
6:45
than any other.
6:46
So there's several different tentacles and avenues
6:49
that kind of play into this,
6:51
part of it being the inability to be real at church,
6:54
part of it into the condemnation that comes from church people,
6:57
part of it, a lack of education from understanding
6:59
that mental health, people that really do struggle
7:04
with mental health issues, that it's a sickness,
7:06
not unlike the flu or anything else.
7:10
So to kind of go back to what you were making about
7:12
how people of faith or if they assume that you have faith
7:15
that to a degree makes you immune to suicidal thoughts
7:18
or depression or anything like that,
7:20
I certainly don't subscribe to that.
7:22
But it would seem that if you do have a faith background,
7:25
you have a different level of understanding
7:27
about how you can get well.
7:28
So it's kind of the thing you've heard a lot of people
7:30
talk about Christian art or Christian music
7:32
or Christian film or anything like that.
7:34
It's some of the worst stuff out there
7:36
and it shouldn't be because Christian should understand
7:38
the beauty and grandeur of creation
7:41
through a different lens because they believe
7:43
in the triune God.
7:44
So I think that's maybe where some of these people
7:46
are coming from, but it doesn't quite come out that way
7:49
because they themselves don't struggle with it.
7:51
And so it's like, well, I don't struggle with it.
7:53
So you shouldn't either.
7:54
You should just have more faith.
7:55
But I guess talk to me a little bit about that
7:56
because that's what a lot of people have gotten
7:58
whenever they have any type of life problems.
8:00
Hey, you just need to have more faith when it's like,
8:02
hey, I have enough faith, but can you help me change my tire?
8:05
Like it's one of those types of situations.
8:08
Well, first of all, it's delusional,
8:13
even though a lot of people think,
8:14
that just because you know Jesus,
8:16
that you're immune to anything, because you're not.
8:19
Matter of fact, if you think you're immune
8:21
to having an affair on your wife, you're not.
8:23
If you think you're immune to sickness, you're not.
8:25
If you think you're immune to pride, you're not.
8:27
Now, you made a great statement in the fact
8:29
that if you do know Jesus, you do have a stronger base,
8:33
you have a connectivity, you have an ability
8:36
to overcome things, that the average guy
8:38
doesn't have the ability to overcome.
8:40
You have a friend that's closer than a brother,
8:44
which enables you to deal with things
8:47
in a better, stronger way than maybe the average man doesn't,
8:51
because you don't have that connectivity with Christ.
8:53
But that doesn't mean that just because you have
8:55
the connectivity with Christ, that you're immune.
8:59
I mean, it's real easy to praise God
9:01
and talk about what a healing, forgiving, good God he is
9:04
until the rug's on underneath your feet.
9:08
My daughter never been sick a day in her life,
9:11
never had a health issue, never went to the hospital
9:14
from the day she was born.
9:16
And about three years ago, at 18 years of age,
9:18
with no health issues whatsoever,
9:21
contracts an incurable disease and ends up
9:24
in the hospital six months straight,
9:28
literally barely living.
9:31
I mean, in ICU, somebody that's never been sick
9:34
a day in their life.
9:35
And I thought, well, hey man, you know what I mean?
9:38
I mean, I travel all over the world
9:40
telling people about Jesus, she had literally,
9:43
literally tens and tens and tens of thousands
9:45
of people praying for her.
9:47
And I went to a season of going, God, where are you?
9:50
I mean, I know you, you are my God, no doubt about it.
9:54
I'm a believer, no doubt about it.
9:55
I came to Christ at 21 years of age.
9:58
And so why are you not delivering?
10:01
Why is my daughter getting worse?
10:03
Why does my daughter have an incurable disease?
10:05
Why does my daughter, who's been the picture of health
10:08
and played competitive volleyball,
10:09
have heart and lung damage?
10:11
So the point that I'm making is,
10:12
is that yes, we do have access to a mighty God,
10:17
and there are times that God does miraculously heal people,
10:20
deliver them from addictions, the list goes on and on.
10:23
But it doesn't mean that just because you do know Christ,
10:26
that you won't struggle, or that your recovery/healing
10:30
will be immediate.
10:31
Flowing ad bunted on metrics that look great,
10:34
till the CFO sees them, that's bullspend.
10:36
And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.
10:41
I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand,
10:45
when leads were slow.
10:47
Yeah, it wasn't.
10:49
Cut the bullspend.
10:50
LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more.
10:53
Advertise on LinkedIn.
10:55
Spend $250 on your first campaign,
10:57
and get a $250 credit, go to linkedin.com/campaign,
10:59
in terms of conditions apply.
11:02
I appreciate that perspective.
11:03
One thing that's interesting that I'd like to get into
11:05
a little bit more, because I had never really thought about it,
11:08
Jay, until earlier this year.
11:10
There was a pastor who has a ministry,
11:11
and he was basically talking about the problem
11:13
with most 12-step programs.
11:15
Even the ones that purport to be Christian 12-step programs,
11:18
and finding your identity in your addiction,
11:21
or in some cases, it's not even addiction,
11:24
finding your identity in this physical compulsion
11:26
to drink alcohol, or do drugs, or have sex with random people,
11:29
or something like that.
11:30
And then we had the guys on, or Adam Comeron, from S2L Recovery,
11:34
and they run one of the most successful recovery programs
11:36
on the planet that is actually biblically based,
11:38
where you don't identify as, hi, I'm John,
11:41
and I'm an alcoholic.
11:42
It's like, hi, I'm John, and I'm saved by the blood of the lamb.
11:45
And you operate from that.
11:47
And well, what a lot of these people have said,
11:49
and again, I hadn't really thought about it until this year,
11:51
but it's been a paradigm shift for me,
11:52
is not talking about this as if it's a disease,
11:55
not talking about this as if it's,
11:57
and thanks for mentioning COVID, by the way.
11:58
Now no one's ever gonna see this episode,
12:00
because it's gonna be thrown away by all the algorithms.
12:03
But it's one of those things where it's like,
12:05
it's not the same thing as the flu,
12:07
or as strep throat, or as something else.
12:09
It is something that can be controlled in a different way
12:12
than something like that.
12:13
That does require medicine to a degree to get better.
12:16
So talk to me a little bit about the, I guess,
12:19
disputatiousness around calling it the disease,
12:23
or using the disease model,
12:24
when a lot of people would say you don't need to.
12:27
Well, I mean, man, honestly, it almost,
12:30
it frustrates me to even go down this path.
12:34
Let me back up a little bit.
12:36
My wife, I'll use my wife as an example.
12:38
My wife has never taken any, never in her life,
12:42
taken any medication.
12:43
After the birth of our third child,
12:46
and man, I don't understand the genetic makeup of women,
12:49
but serotonin levels and all this stuff got out of whack,
12:52
and my wife was having a very difficult time mentally
12:56
after our third child,
12:57
never had a mental issue in her life, solid as a rock.
13:02
And I came home from work one day,
13:04
and you've heard the proverbial saying,
13:06
"Don't cry over spilled milk."
13:08
One of my children had spilled milk on a hardwood floor,
13:11
no big deal, you can throw a towel on and wipe it up.
13:15
I walked in from work,
13:16
my wife is on her knees sobbing,
13:19
because one of my children spilled milk on the floor.
13:23
Now that's when I knew something is wrong.
13:26
My wife has always been very stable.
13:29
My wife has never had mental health issues.
13:32
And I said, "Listen, I knew something was going on,
13:35
"but I couldn't figure out what it was."
13:37
And so my wife went to her position and got on medication.
13:42
She's been on medication ever since.
13:45
So I'm not the guy for those people,
13:48
and I'm not the guy to get into a discussion
13:52
about the reality of whether or not it's a sickness
13:55
or whether it's an ailment.
13:57
All I know is the Center for Disease Control
13:59
says that it's the number one ailment in the world.
14:02
All I know is I've spent 20 years
14:04
talking to every race, color, creed,
14:07
every age group imaginable.
14:09
I've spent my life,
14:10
I've spoken to millions and millions of people.
14:13
And to think that these people are somehow living a mirage
14:17
or delusional about their mental health issues
14:20
to me is preposterous.
14:22
- So I don't know if it's necessarily a mirage,
14:24
but you did bring up as well.
14:26
It's almost like where people with mental issues,
14:28
like I've said, even for the younger generation,
14:30
it's almost like an accessory that they can have,
14:34
like, "Oh, I've got this issue that I'm medicated for."
14:36
But to talk about the medication issue as well,
14:38
there's someone in my life that's very, very close to me.
14:42
Hat was going through a little bit of a rough patch
14:44
and had probably a two or three minute long discussion
14:47
with a doctor and the doctor prescribed this person Zoloft
14:52
without any discussion of potential drawbacks,
14:54
without any discussion about the term of this
14:58
and it was described to this person's significant other.
15:00
They were just like, "Yeah, it's just gonna be
15:02
"this short-term thing."
15:03
And by short term, they meant six months.
15:05
Meaning, "Hey, let's be on this medication for six months
15:07
"and then let's just see where we're at."
15:09
And then it's like, "Did nobody, was nobody there
15:11
"with this person?
15:12
"Did nobody help them maybe discuss this?"
15:14
It's almost like a lot of these MDs,
15:16
they have to get you out of the door in six or seven minutes
15:19
and so it's just easier to go ahead
15:20
and write the prescription and deal with whatever other
15:22
nonsense happens later down the road.
15:24
Six months from now, whenever they gotta put you
15:26
on a different one or change your notions
15:27
or move this around and we default to doing things like that
15:31
as opposed to a lot of data shows that if people work out
15:36
vigorously and eat right and get sleep,
15:38
it can take a care of numerous ailments,
15:41
whether mental or physical, but you don't see doctors
15:43
prescribing 90 days of clean eating and working out hard.
15:46
So talk to me a little bit about that as well
15:48
because I know that medication has helped people,
15:50
but man, it's really cumbersome to me
15:53
and it's really, I get really, really scared,
15:56
especially when kids are put on these SSRIs
15:58
and we don't have any of the long-term data
16:00
for that child as if it's going to solve their issue.
16:03
- I'm not saying that that's a dispute.
16:07
Certainly there are some people
16:09
that maybe could change their diet, their sleep habits,
16:11
but for those people that try to categorize
16:14
everybody in that category,
16:16
it's so completely wrong.
16:18
I mean, and this analogy that you gave
16:22
of this certain person, that wasn't our experience.
16:24
We didn't go in and some doctor just threw
16:26
a bottle of pills at it.
16:27
So I'm not saying that doesn't happen either,
16:29
but again, to put into a category, well, man, listen,
16:33
I'm just going to get more sleep,
16:34
I'm going to pray more and go to church more often,
16:36
read my Bible more and I'm going to be fine and dandy.
16:39
That may happen, I mean, I've got a friend,
16:42
I've got a friend right now that was on hardcore drugs
16:46
for years.
16:47
He got saved, gave his life to Christ,
16:49
was immediate delivered.
16:50
I mean, man walked away.
16:53
Cold Turkey never had another desire for drugs,
16:56
not a day in his life.
16:57
I know another guy who's been very influential in my life,
17:00
a businessman, quite frankly,
17:02
that helped get our ministry started.
17:04
Had it not been for him,
17:05
we would have never even got going.
17:07
He was an oil man who made a lot of money
17:10
and he stored in a lot of cocaine and he met Jesus
17:14
and he got free and he was free about two years
17:17
and then he fell back in and this went on and on for years.
17:20
He'd get clean and he'd stay clean for a while
17:22
and then a trigger would take place
17:24
and then he'd fall back in and he struggled his whole life.
17:26
I don't know anybody that I'm more certain
17:28
of their salvation experience than I am this businessman.
17:32
Now, Jay, where are you going with all this?
17:33
Where I'm going is is that there are some people
17:36
that may be able to change their sleep habits
17:38
and their eat habits and that may be all that it takes.
17:41
There are other people that need medication.
17:43
There are some people that get healed instantaneously.
17:46
There are some people that I'm sure got my daughter's disease
17:48
that she's getting a 30 something thousand dollar shot for
17:50
every single month and they prayed it away.
17:53
But we can't say that because even Jesus, man,
17:56
look at when he healed the blind people.
17:58
I mean, Jesus had the ability in one case to spit on
18:01
and make some mud and put it on somebody else's eyes
18:04
and then he can speak to someone else and says,
18:06
have your vision.
18:07
We can't just put Jesus in a box or a healing in a box
18:10
and say, well, because I'm going to make my experience
18:13
empirical that may have been that person's experience
18:16
with medication.
18:17
It doesn't mean it's everybody else's.
18:18
The person who was instantaneously healed can't say,
18:21
well, if you serve the same God that I served
18:23
since I got healed instantaneously, you should.
18:26
It doesn't work that way.
18:27
So, I'm glad, yeah, absolutely.
18:30
I'm glad you actually brought up the instantaneous
18:32
healing thing.
18:32
So let's just use the example that you use
18:35
of somebody that's, you know, hardcore drug user
18:37
and then they get saved and all of a sudden
18:39
they're literally delivered from that
18:40
and there's no better word to use.
18:42
Why do you think that is?
18:44
Because what I've told people before,
18:46
because, you know, people that are maybe outside the faith
18:48
that they don't really understand, they're like,
18:50
well, I know Christians that struggle like, you know,
18:51
you made me think of Johnny Cash.
18:53
Like people watch Walk the Line and they think,
18:54
oh, Johnny Cash was delivered from, you know,
18:57
using amphetamines and he didn't struggle
18:58
with it the rest of his life because he married June.
19:01
And it's like, no, he struggled literally until the day
19:03
he died off and on with using amphetamines and other drugs.
19:07
It was something that he could never be fully delivered from.
19:10
But then there are those people that literally die, you know,
19:12
with a needle in their arm and they float over their body
19:15
and then they zoop come back and then they never touch the stuff.
19:18
And what I've told people is it's like, you know,
19:20
God will remove the things from you
19:21
that you cannot control, you know, for his glory.
19:25
But then God will also allow people to struggle for his glory
19:28
because it's like, if you have to struggle
19:30
with substance abuse or something like that,
19:32
you can minister to somebody that's struggling
19:34
with substance abuse in a way more integral way
19:38
than a guy like me that never has.
19:40
That's just kind of where I go with it.
19:41
So if someone were to ask you that,
19:43
like, why does he deliver some people completely
19:45
and not others, what would you say?
19:47
- Man, I wish I knew the answer for that
19:49
and because there is no answer.
19:50
I mean, we've got a staff member right now
19:52
that literally a week ago,
19:55
their grandbaby lived three days and died.
19:58
There are other people, their grandbaby had the same problem
20:00
in some other hospital that are also,
20:02
and she is one of the godliest, I love her like a family member.
20:06
And she's devastated, she's down the hallway,
20:09
she's devastated, and she's asking that same question,
20:11
why did God not spare us?
20:13
Why when the hurricane goes through?
20:15
Is one house spared and the other one's not?
20:17
Why is one person healed instantaneously?
20:19
One person is not.
20:21
I mean, it's way out of my pay grade
20:24
to try to understand why God does the things that he does.
20:27
But one thing I do know,
20:28
and I think it's the more important aspect
20:30
is what you mentioned, that God allows people
20:34
to go through things so that they can be
20:36
a catalyst impact to other people.
20:38
I truly believe that the enemy brought suicide against me,
20:42
I think in some capacity,
20:43
the enemy might have known what I was gonna do with my life.
20:47
And the enemy wanted to stop me from doing that.
20:49
And what the enemy doesn't realize, or he does now,
20:53
that the very thing that he brought against me
20:55
to destroy me is now the very thing
20:58
that God has used all over the world
21:00
to steal people from his kingdom.
21:04
Because my suicide story has been something
21:06
that has enabled me to connect with people
21:08
that otherwise I would have never been able to connect with.
21:11
And so God has taken what the enemy brought against me
21:13
and used it as an incredible tool for me to help literally
21:17
thousands and thousands of people
21:19
that have struggled with suicidal tendencies.
21:21
And I think at the end of the day,
21:23
there's a component where God allows,
21:25
God uses broken people, man.
21:27
Look at Genesis to Revelation.
21:29
The people that you and I respect in the scriptures
21:31
are the people that have been through hell and back.
21:33
And not only that,
21:34
but the people that made bad mistakes.
21:36
There's guys watching this podcast going,
21:37
God could never use me, man.
21:38
I've committed murder, adultery.
21:40
Well, so did David.
21:41
And so God allows people to go through things
21:44
so that he can use them to relate to other people
21:46
who are going through the same thing.
21:48
I liken it to the, I always like to reference,
21:51
you remember when David thought Goliath,
21:53
to me the most insulting part of the whole battle
21:57
was not that David defeated Goliath.
21:59
It was that the weapon that was brought against David
22:02
was then put in David's hand to cut off Goliath's head.
22:06
And I think that's what's happened in my life.
22:08
The enemy, the weapon that he brought was on the sword.
22:11
It was suicide.
22:12
But God ended up putting it in my hand
22:14
to cut off the head of the enemy
22:15
to help other people who are struggling with it.
22:17
I think to sit around all day and wonder why God does
22:20
anything is futile because no one knows.
22:22
His ways are, it's an understatement to say they're mysterious.
22:26
They're perplexing.
22:27
I still don't understand a lot of things
22:29
that have gone on in my life.
22:30
But what I do understand is this.
22:32
God is a good God and he allows me to go through trials
22:35
in order to help other people.
22:37
- Yeah, I've tried to encourage men
22:38
to kind of stay in the pocket.
22:39
I kind of caught myself, Jay, a few months ago
22:42
wondering what heaven would be like.
22:44
And then I just kind of like,
22:45
"Rr, stop, stop.
22:46
You have no idea.
22:47
In my wildest imagination, I can't even fathom it.
22:50
How about I deal with the stuff that's happening right now
22:52
around me as opposed to spending all day in the daydreams?
22:55
But I do want to talk specifically
22:57
about suicide and suicidality, how it affects men.
23:00
So I've talked about on the show,
23:01
a member of my foxhole, very close friend of mine,
23:03
killed himself and it was one of those,
23:06
I'll put it to you this way.
23:07
It didn't seem to be an emotional decision
23:09
as much as it was an intellectual decision.
23:11
And I'll leave the details there
23:12
because the details are very, very close to the family
23:14
and I don't really want to go there.
23:15
But this was something that was planned out
23:17
that there was no stopping it.
23:18
It wasn't like he got the sads one day
23:21
and then all of a sudden decided to blow his head off.
23:23
And I talked about, whenever I talked about that,
23:25
from the show, I talked about my own thoughts with suicide
23:27
and they were never emotional thoughts
23:29
as much as they were intellectual thoughts.
23:31
You know, at the times in my life
23:33
where I was at the lowest point of my career,
23:35
where I felt like I wasn't checking any of the boxes
23:37
that a real man should check.
23:39
You know, I was just doing the math in my head.
23:41
I was just like, well, I'm worth this much money dead
23:44
because I have this much life insurance
23:46
compared to what I might be able to make
23:47
over this period of time and blah, blah, blah.
23:49
And it was like, I never got to the point
23:51
where I pulled out a pistol and, you know, went that far.
23:53
But I had these kind of deep intellectual discussions
23:57
with myself and I know I'm not the only one.
23:59
Now, there are guys that just have the emotional thing.
24:01
They're in some sort of pit of despair
24:03
because of addiction or death in the family
24:05
or something like that.
24:06
And they just go right to the emotional response to that.
24:08
And that has a lot to do with their circumstances
24:10
and their personality.
24:11
But just talk to me about, I guess,
24:12
the breadth of different circumstances
24:15
that cause men specifically to look at suicide
24:18
as this is my ticket to peace.
24:21
This is my way out.
24:23
- Yeah, well, that's a hard thing
24:24
'cause I know it's different for everybody.
24:26
You know, I can only relate on my level.
24:28
And of course, part of it, you have to look at where I was.
24:31
You know, when you're 21 years of age,
24:34
you lost your car, your job, your girlfriend.
24:36
I mean, that's pretty much your identity.
24:38
I mean, that is your world.
24:41
And plus, on top of that, an addiction problem as well,
24:45
you know, it's a crock pot of a big mess.
24:48
And so, you know, it's, I really can only speak
24:51
from my own experience.
24:52
And of course, there was that thought process.
24:56
You know, there was a lot of processes.
24:57
Processes of, is there a hope for a change?
25:01
Is there a way to turn this situation around?
25:04
And for me, it was stuck in a rut
25:07
and feeling as if there was no escape.
25:09
I always liken it to, and it's a difficult analogy,
25:13
but it's one people relate to.
25:15
I liken it to the people in the World Trade Center towers
25:18
that we all saw jump from the windows
25:19
when the smoke was building out the window.
25:21
Those people didn't want to die, man.
25:22
I didn't want to die either.
25:24
I just didn't want to live.
25:25
And so for them, when they're standing in that window
25:28
and the flames were licking at their back,
25:30
the thought process wasn't, I want to die.
25:33
The thought process is, I want to escape the pain
25:35
I'm in now.
25:37
And I can either stay where I'm at
25:39
and go through this excruciating pain
25:42
or I can jump out the window and expedite my death.
25:46
And that was the case for me, as it was,
25:49
I believe the case for many of those people
25:50
that we watched horrifically jump
25:53
out of those buildings during 9/11.
25:55
So, again, I don't know that you can pigeonhole that.
25:58
I think part of it, again, I mentioned earlier.
26:00
I think part of it is the nature of men.
26:02
One of the characteristics of someone
26:07
who may be suicidal is isolation.
26:10
And men are good at this because we don't want to admit
26:12
we have a problem.
26:13
We don't want to admit that we need help.
26:15
And me, rather than going to someone and saying,
26:18
"Hey, man, I'm struggling.
26:20
"I'm thinking about ending my life.
26:22
"I begin to seclude myself and isolate myself
26:25
"further and further and further."
26:26
So I think part of that for men
26:28
is just their genetic makeup.
26:30
We're posers.
26:32
We camouflage ourselves.
26:35
We're not emotional beings.
26:37
We have difficulty expressing or showing our feelings.
26:40
And that all plays right in
26:43
to this whole mantra of suicidal tendencies.
26:47
I mean, honestly, regrettably,
26:50
it's a perfect match when you look at the characteristics
26:53
of someone who's in the throes of suicidal thinking
26:56
and the characteristics of men.
26:59
- Yeah, I don't think there's anything to quibble with there
27:02
because isolation, I mean, to be honest with you, Jay,
27:05
there are a lot of men in my life
27:06
that have deep levels of isolation.
27:09
They're isolated from just relationships in general,
27:12
like from community, from all these different things.
27:15
And you can only do so much to encourage that person
27:17
because you can't literally grab them by the cuff of the shirt
27:20
and drag them into community and to be known by people.
27:23
But then it's whenever the people that you do feel like
27:25
you know still do those things,
27:27
they still do take their lives or something like that.
27:29
That's where it starts getting into warning signs.
27:31
You mentioned one there, I would say, with isolation,
27:34
but just not that long ago, Sarah Wilkinson
27:37
was on our show.
27:38
Her husband was a Navy SEAL.
27:40
He was in development group
27:41
and had a lot of injuries, a lot of brain injuries,
27:44
like a lot of our special operators have.
27:47
And you know, he ended up taking his own life.
27:49
And she only at that point could look backwards
27:53
and see some of the warning signs of a deep level
27:56
of a problem that kind of came through.
27:58
And for the rest of her life to a degree,
28:00
I think she's gonna struggle with that.
28:01
She's gonna struggle with what could I have done
28:03
and you know, the real answer maybe
28:06
that she could have done absolutely nothing
28:08
to save her husband and as it were.
28:10
But there are warning signs for people
28:12
that a lot of us are too distracted to really notice
28:14
because we're in our phones or we're in our businesses
28:17
or we're doing 10 different other things.
28:19
But from what you've seen and from what you've experienced,
28:21
what are some warning signs that people should look for
28:25
in their people and how should they approach that?
28:27
- Yeah, so before I get to that,
28:29
I wanna reference something that you triggered a thought.
28:32
I had a friend talking about how this all plays
28:35
into the effect on men.
28:37
I had a friend of mine and he asked me one night
28:40
if he could meet me at Taco Bell.
28:41
And if anybody would be somebody
28:42
that would recognize warning signs, it's me.
28:45
I mean, I've been doing this a long time.
28:47
And so we met at Taco Bell and I knew that he and his wife
28:50
were having some struggles but, and he met with me.
28:53
And I mean, it seemed to be really just very casual.
28:57
It didn't seem as though there was some major crisis point
29:00
in any way and he leaves
29:04
and the following day hangs himself in the shower.
29:08
It's found by his children.
29:09
And there was a lot of guilt there
29:11
'cause I'm like of all people that you would think
29:15
that would recognize it, it would have been me.
29:19
And I thought it just another situation of,
29:21
hey, we've all got marriage troubles from time to time.
29:23
We all have struggles that's married life.
29:25
So anyway, just wanted to mention that.
29:28
Yeah, so one of the warning signs I mentioned is isolation.
29:31
I think that plays a key role.
29:34
I think it can also be sudden tragedy or loss.
29:38
This seems to hold true more so in younger men.
29:42
The death of a loved one, the loss of a relationship,
29:45
a divorce, something of that nature.
29:47
Another one that we seem that we see a lot
29:50
is extreme mood swings.
29:53
Somebody who normally is very level,
29:56
now seems to be very erratic.
29:58
Someone who's normally very docile,
30:00
now seems to be very high or very low.
30:03
We also see it in an increased use
30:05
and let's say a person, maybe they're a casual drinker.
30:08
And now we see one who begins abusing drugs or alcohol
30:13
and you say, well, man,
30:14
I'm talking about even prescription medications.
30:16
So those are just some of the things,
30:18
I don't know if that's a conclusive list,
30:20
but those are some of the predominant ones
30:22
that we've seen over the years.
30:25
- Well, one thing that I would add,
30:26
and I would be curious to see if you would cosign this,
30:28
one thing at the end of my interview with Sarah
30:31
is she was like, if you get the thought
30:34
that your friend or your family member might be suicidal,
30:38
you have to ask them.
30:40
And I remember that that seems like such simple advice,
30:42
but for most of us, we're pretty nice people,
30:44
we don't like to rock the boat,
30:45
we don't really like to get into other people's business.
30:47
And so we don't ask those tough questions, right?
30:49
Like, you know, hey, man, are you cheating on your wife
30:52
or hey, man, are you still looking abhorrent?
30:54
Like we just don't want to do that,
30:56
we don't want to risk the relational capital.
30:58
But that even came up for me here recently,
31:00
I had a friend who lost a child in a tragic accident.
31:03
And whenever I was talking to him on the phone,
31:05
I made sure to ask that as awkward as it was
31:08
and he didn't get mad, he didn't fly off the handle.
31:11
He was like, man, I appreciate you asking.
31:13
And luckily the answer is no.
31:15
But for some people, I feel like that is that,
31:18
that olive branch or that hand reaching out to rescue them.
31:21
Do you feel like that people should do that?
31:23
They should be that bold and straight up ask people.
31:26
- Well, before I answer the question, let me say this,
31:29
'cause there's a lot of misconceptions about this topic.
31:32
One of them is that talking about suicide leads to suicide,
31:36
another misconception is that people
31:40
who are considering suicide don't mention or don't give hints.
31:44
And so now circling back to your question, unequivocally yes.
31:49
Studies have proven that the greatest, let me repeat,
31:52
the greatest deterrent to suicide is having someone
31:57
that you can talk to, an open line of communication.
32:01
It's the greatest deterrent.
32:03
And so this thought process that, well, man,
32:05
we can't talk about it or what if I ask,
32:08
am I gonna be leading them into thinking about something
32:11
that they weren't already thinking about?
32:13
Couldn't be further from the truth.
32:15
And especially again, we're talking about men.
32:17
Men tend to do better anyway with stuff that's straightforward.
32:21
And I don't think there could be a better question,
32:23
not an accusing way, but I think it's gotta be asked more
32:27
in the arena of suspicion, curiosity.
32:31
Hey, man, I just wanna check.
32:33
I know things have been tough lately.
32:34
I know you've been down, I know you and the wife,
32:36
you and the job, you and the finances, whatever.
32:39
And man, have you ever given any thought
32:41
or have you ever considered anything drastic?
32:44
Have you ever thought about having suicidal thoughts?
32:46
I don't think there can be anything
32:48
that can be a better question to ask.
32:50
And again, talking about social capital,
32:53
if this is somebody that you have a strong relationship with,
32:56
man, they're gonna appreciate that you care.
32:57
They're gonna appreciate that you're interested
33:00
in that you're asking, I wish to God I would have asked
33:02
my buddy that I just told the story about in Taco Bell.
33:05
But again.
33:06
- Jay, let's give him a ring.
33:08
Sorry, go ahead.
33:10
- I think he would have told me too.
33:12
I think I have asked him, Steve, listen, man,
33:16
I know things are tough right now at home,
33:18
but just level with me, brother,
33:20
have you ever thought about ending your life?
33:23
I don't think Steve would have been angry at me.
33:24
I think Steve would have appreciated me being candid
33:27
and asking that question.
33:29
- Again, talking about is always the best thing.
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34:03
- Yeah, I would cosign that for sure.
34:04
Well, let's get even more granular than Jay.
34:06
So let's go back to your buddy at Taco Bell,
34:09
and let's say you had asked in that, and he said yes.
34:12
Let's go back to my conversations with my friend.
34:13
I ask him that, and let's say he says yes.
34:16
Then what?
34:17
Then what do you do?
34:17
- Well, yeah, there's a few things.
34:19
So first of all, I wanna make sure
34:21
that that individual knows that I am accessible to them.
34:26
Now, I don't wanna say I'm accessible if I'm not.
34:28
I'm accessible to you 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
34:32
I'm here.
34:33
If that means I've gotta fly out to you,
34:35
if I've gotta drive out to you,
34:36
if that means it's at three o'clock in the morning,
34:38
if that means I've gotta call in sick,
34:41
it's gotta be, you've gotta be that kind of commitment.
34:43
It's gotta be where you are truly available to them
34:48
at any and all cost.
34:49
The second thing that I always do is,
34:50
is of course I have a network of people
34:53
that are godly people that I always encourage and ask them
34:57
if they would be willing to meet with them.
35:00
Now, I'm not against psychiatrists or psychologists in any way,
35:03
and people may have a good connection there.
35:05
For me, I try to send them to some people
35:09
who are in the ministry.
35:11
I wanna make sure that they're getting godly advice,
35:14
godly counsel.
35:15
So that may not be somebody else may go to a Christian counselor,
35:19
or have a friend who's a Christian psychiatrist
35:21
or psychologist, but needless to say
35:24
that beyond being accessible and at the ready themselves,
35:28
they need to encourage them to get help.
35:31
Then another thing I would do again,
35:32
this kinda depends on the relationship and the proximity,
35:35
but man, there are several national suicide hotlines
35:39
that I would even make available.
35:41
There is numerous materials on social, excuse me,
35:44
on websites that I would forward to them.
35:47
So I think the first line of defense, number one is me.
35:51
It's knowing I love you, I don't judge you,
35:54
I'm here for you at any and all costs.
35:56
Number two is this may not just go away,
36:00
and so we need to seek help.
36:02
Again, me as a guy that spent my years
36:05
as a full-time evangelist, I personally prefer it
36:07
to be a Christian, and I say counselor,
36:10
the guys that I send to locally,
36:12
they're not even counselors, they're preachers.
36:15
Some people may not agree with that.
36:16
So that's a second line of defense.
36:18
The third line of defense is, again,
36:21
whether that be accessibility, getting help.
36:25
And again, I would even, depending on how the process goes,
36:29
but I mean, I'm not against eventually
36:32
going to see your physician and seeing if,
36:35
like in the case of my wife, if it's a scenario
36:38
where maybe there is some medical imbalance,
36:42
chemistry imbalance that needs to be dealt with.
36:44
But the worst thing you can do is brush it off.
36:47
And I've seen people over the years go,
36:49
well, so-and-so is just trying to get attention.
36:52
Hello, yeah, they are.
36:54
Well, you know, they said they'd be better off
36:56
if they were no longer living or they didn't have hope.
36:58
I think they're just wanting people to look their way.
37:01
Yes, they are.
37:03
And so whatever you do, don't be dismissive.
37:05
- Obviously, don't be dismissive.
37:08
And one thing that I would tell you as well
37:09
is if you're gonna offer somebody like,
37:11
hey, 24/7, I'm your guy, like, let's make this happen,
37:14
this is just a practical piece of advice.
37:16
You have to get buy-in from your spouse about that.
37:19
You need to get permission from your buddy
37:21
to have that discussion with your spouse
37:23
because if you're leaving at three o'clock in the morning
37:26
to drive across town to go be with your buddy,
37:28
your wife needs to be down with that, you know what I mean?
37:30
'Cause that's gonna create a whole bunch of problems at home
37:32
that, you know, guys just, you know,
37:34
very, very practical advice there.
37:35
Make sure she's a part of that process
37:37
because she's gonna be the wind beneath your wings.
37:39
You don't want her to be a weight dragging you back down,
37:41
you know what I mean?
37:42
So there's one bit of practical advice.
37:43
But then, beyond that, and we'll make this last question
37:46
of the day 'cause I think this is really important.
37:48
Unfortunately, we don't have more time.
37:50
The need for the church, and I'm using that, you know,
37:53
I guess colloquially, the capital C church
37:55
to really allow people that are in their midst
37:58
and also people that are on their staffs
38:00
to be very, very frank and very, very upfront
38:02
about their struggles with mental health
38:04
or any of those types of things
38:06
because I know there are a lot of church leaders
38:08
that listen to this podcast.
38:10
I know there are church leaders
38:11
that have never had mental issues
38:12
and maybe they look kind of a scant
38:14
and people that have mental problems
38:15
and be like, yeah, okay, I bet you have a mental problem.
38:17
And maybe they do have a tendency to dismiss it.
38:20
What would be your encouragement
38:22
if you could speak to the capital C church, you know,
38:24
all at once in terms of how they should approach people
38:27
within their midst, even up into their own staff members
38:30
about how they should deal with mental health issues?
38:33
- Well, first of all, I would say
38:35
that there needs to be an approach.
38:38
The church has been so silent on this issue.
38:41
And very, very rarely.
38:44
I mean, occasionally here of the church
38:46
doing something on it, but for the most part,
38:48
the church has been silent.
38:49
So the church doesn't say anything about it.
38:52
And I mean, we'll stay on topic for today,
38:55
but this isn't the only issue
38:57
that the church doesn't talk about.
38:59
And so people end up getting second-hand information
39:02
or wrong information because they can't get it
39:04
from the very source that they should be able to get it from.
39:06
So first of all, the church needs
39:08
to be doing something about it.
39:10
I mean, this is a worldwide epidemic.
39:12
People are struggling with it.
39:13
And there are people struggling with it
39:15
all within the ranks of their church,
39:17
but people can't afford to say anything.
39:19
They're afraid to say anything,
39:20
especially those that are on staff
39:22
or leadership positions because the truth of it is,
39:24
in some cases, they will be fired.
39:26
Let's just be real.
39:27
They will be fired.
39:28
Because if you were godly and if you were praying,
39:30
if you were walking with Jesus,
39:32
you wouldn't have the struggles that you're having.
39:33
That's just the reality of it.
39:35
So first of all, they need to come out of the closet on it.
39:37
Now, what does that mean?
39:38
I mean, it means different things for different churches.
39:41
Maybe it means doing a sermon series on mental health.
39:44
Maybe it means providing a workshop
39:47
where victims of suicide that have lost family members
39:51
are people who are struggling with it, have a safe zone
39:54
where they can go in and discuss this,
39:56
where it's not people just gossiping about it
39:59
or are spreading rumors around the church.
40:01
There just needs to be some engagement
40:03
because quite frankly, there is very little engagement.
40:07
I thank God there are exceptions to that.
40:08
I was invited to Northern Ireland.
40:10
I've been now about six times the largest church
40:12
in the whole country of Northern Ireland.
40:15
And the reason they invited me
40:16
when I initially got the phone call,
40:17
they said, well, hey, the reason we want you to come
40:20
is because people are getting frustrated
40:21
because when they're driving into work
40:24
in downtown Belfast, it's very disheartening
40:26
to be going to your job and watching bodies swing in the wind
40:30
because they're hanging from trees downtown.
40:33
And so there are exceptions.
40:34
But I would say the starting place is to begin to take action,
40:38
start those workshops, start a sermon series,
40:40
start a help group where there can be a safe zone
40:44
that people can talk about it
40:45
because the truth of it is a lot of people,
40:47
especially who are believers,
40:49
there are people like me, I wasn't saved
40:52
when I attempted suicide.
40:55
So I didn't have that network.
40:57
But what's sad is is people who are believers
41:00
that should have the network and don't have the network
41:02
because they can't talk about it.
41:05
- Yeah, I think being able to open up those lines
41:06
of communication, but also there are a lot of people,
41:10
like I kind of get annoyed when people are like,
41:11
hey, we're going to do an awareness campaign.
41:13
Okay, great.
41:14
Now that you've made people aware, now what?
41:16
So you have to make sure that there is something
41:18
that is, you have some sort of a scaffolding
41:20
under your awareness campaign.
41:21
So guys, if you're going to be doing a sermon series
41:23
or an entire Sunday on mental health or something like that,
41:26
you've got to have a plan in place
41:27
for how you're going to go after catching these people.
41:29
Same thing, when I get invited to go speak
41:31
to at a men's event, I'm like, guys, I don't live here.
41:34
Like I'm going to come in, I'm going to burn it down
41:35
and I'm going to walk away.
41:36
Y'all need to have a plan on how to deal with the ashes.
41:38
Like you need to have a plan for some of these men
41:40
that are going to come to you
41:41
and basically lay their entire life on you
41:43
because some speaker got up and got them all expired
41:46
or, you know, inspired, not expired.
41:47
But it's like that you need to have a plan for that
41:49
because otherwise some guys are going to fall
41:51
through the cracks and that's not really what you want
41:53
for you and your community.
41:54
But Jay, I really appreciate all your time today.
41:56
I appreciate the things that we're able to get into.
41:58
This is not a fun subject matter,
41:59
but obviously this is a major through point for you
42:02
and for your ministry overall.
42:03
Obviously in the show notes, I'll put, you know,
42:05
where guys can go and check out your website
42:07
to see the other stuff that you're doing.
42:08
But that's all for me.
42:09
Is there anything else you want to get off your chest?
42:11
- Man, I'm going to give a plug
42:14
and people are going to think, it is what it is, man.
42:17
This is the best podcast that I've ever been a part of.
42:21
Man, I just love what you're doing.
42:23
And this isn't, you know, man, I don't even know you.
42:25
So this isn't, you know, putting air in your tires
42:28
or anything like that.
42:29
I do a lot of this stuff, man, all over the country.
42:32
And I just, man, I don't know from the jump,
42:35
just what you're doing.
42:37
And especially you connecting with men
42:39
and just the ability to, there's no fluff here.
42:42
It's, I'm telling you, it's not characteristic.
42:45
I do this stuff all over the country.
42:47
Matter of fact, I did one here about two weeks ago
42:49
and I told our press team,
42:50
I said, don't ever book me those folks again.
42:53
It was so, it was so fake.
42:55
So listen, man, I'm just telling you right now,
42:58
any time you ever want me back for anything, I mean,
43:01
the answer is yes.
43:02
And I apologize for being a little late today.
43:04
- Well, no, I appreciate it.
43:05
And I appreciate you giving me a compliment
43:07
after my voice cracked, like I'm going through puberty.
43:09
So it's just like, hey, you know, guys,
43:10
even when you have, you make a mistake,
43:12
you can still get a compliment,
43:13
but no, I appreciate that edification there.
43:15
Jay Louder, thank you so much
43:16
for coming on a Daunton Life of Man's podcast.
43:18
- Thank you, sir.
43:20
- There you go, guys.
43:21
Hope you enjoyed my time with Jay Louder,
43:22
but before I let you go, we are gonna do a quick resilience boost
43:24
and in Daunton Life, our mission is equipping men
43:26
to push back darkness with content
43:27
that forges spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
43:30
So the one link I've got for you today
43:31
is a link to Jay's website.
43:32
That's where you can get to all the stuff Jay
43:34
and his team are doing.
43:35
So guys, go there and check that out.
43:37
All right, guys, thanks so much for listening to the show.
43:38
We do appreciate it.
43:39
Wherever you're listening to this,
43:40
please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review.
43:43
If you want me to come speak live at your event
43:44
or on your podcast, just shoot me an email
43:46
to info@ondaunton.life.
43:48
That's I-N-F-O @ondaunton.life.
43:50
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook
43:52
and check out our website for everything else,
43:53
including how to donate
43:54
to keep more content like this coming your way.
43:56
Please go to www.ondaunton.life and as always,
43:59
we want to thank the band, August Burns Red,
44:00
for allowing us to use their music for our content.
44:03
The music on this podcast is our song "Cutting the Tides,"
44:05
which is off their 10th anniversary
44:06
re-recording of their album, "Leveler."
44:08
The links are in the description.
44:09
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
44:11
Remember, keep pushing back darkness,
44:14
keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
44:17
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
44:20
(upbeat music)
44:22
♪ No silence is a heart and a heart ♪
44:26
♪ When all you want is a side ♪
44:30
♪ It may stand as a virtue ♪
44:34
♪ You will be revived ♪
44:52
[BLANK_AUDIO]