Let's be honest, most men drift. We wake up, we scroll, we work, and then we just rinse and repeat. And we know we're softer than we should be. That's why I built the 31-day resilience reset. This is not a devotional, it is a field manual for men ready to stop drifting and start fighting back. So, for 31 days, you'll train your spirit, mind, and body with scripture, prayer, and daily challenges that forge real resilience. Go to www.undaunted.life/31days to download this resource for free. That's undaunted.life/31days. Start your reset today. This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Let's get into it. Jack Carr, I would do the normal welcome back to the show, but I can't even count as high as the number of times that you've been on the show at this point. You've already punched the card, you got your freebies, and everything else like that. But, I I already told you from the beginning, if you keep releasing books, I'm going to keep forcing you to come back on here, and you just keep acquiescing to my request. That's awesome. Let's do it. Let's do it. And fortunately, I love writing, and I have a lot more a lot more books in the in in I shouldn't say in the works, but in my strategic plan that I want to build out. Many more different series that I want to build out over time here. So, it's hopefully we'll be talking a lot more. That's right, and we'll be talking about a new series here in a little bit. But, as I like to do at the beginning, because obviously when you do a lot of these interviews, people like to stick to, you know, the James Reece series, and you know, they want to talk about the new series or the show or whatever's coming on, and we'll hit all that stuff. But, I like hitting you with some stuff that's kind of currently going on in our world, because you have a very unique perspective in terms of like the cultural or political zeitgeists, because you're so well-read, you're so well-informed, and also historically, you can see the through points of some of the things we're experiencing today, and you're not seeing it through new eyes, because you're seeing it through the eyes of people that have already experienced it, because you've read, you know, their thoughts on it. And so, right now, it's obviously what's going on in the Middle East. Guys, peek behind the curtain, we're recording this the first week of April. This is coming out like 5 weeks from now, and so, everything could change while we're recording. And so, with that in mind, we might need to keep, you know, your commentary 30,000-ft view. But, what is your read of the current conflict that we're just over 30 days into with Iran, how it could escalate, what else it could lead to, and what it means for our the future of our country? Yeah, well, there's still essentially an infinite number of variables, and that's just how warfare works, and you have to adapt to your enemy, both strategically and tactically and operationally, faster than they can adapt to you. So, as we're recording this, of course, yesterday we had the the news of the rescue of our down pilots. Incredible rescue operation. I think as we're recording this, President Trump is talking about it right now on the news. So, after this, I'll go down and hear what he has to to say. I'll be on a few news shows tonight about it. I always get asked about it online, too. It's really interesting. People, why aren't you talking about Iran? Well, cuz I don't talk about Iran X or or whatever, because I don't feel that's the best place to talk about these things. I talk about authors and books, and I have a reading list on Iran, if anyone's interested in putting in the work, picking one of those books that I recommend, one of the ones that jumps out at them as interesting or a couple, in order to build up that foundation of knowledge to then apply to the current problems that or to help form an an opinion or whatever it might be. So, I do do that, but I'm not in the business of uh clickbaiting, and you know, I don't care how many clicks or likes or whatever else I get on the social channels. That's not what I do. But, the first 2 weeks of the war, I was on every single day on multiple shows, which also meant I didn't get any writing done on James Reece 8, which I was supposed to be doing. So, I did do that. So, you know, whenever I see somebody say that on the socials, it's like, yeah, I was on for 2 weeks straight TV, and anyway, regardless. But, yeah, things things obviously infinite number of variables, but that rescue, oh my gosh. There's going to be more books, there's going to be movies, and I think that's important. I mean, remember watching what Bat 21 back in the '80s with the with Gene Hackman and Danny Glover, you know, those sorts of there was a up down pilot in in that. There was a book as well. And so, things like that are just inspiring to that kid in 6th, 7th, 8th grade, high school, college, whatever it might be, that's looking for that thing to do in life, curious about the military. And then to see these these operations, to read about them, to read about these guys who selflessly going in, putting their own lives at risk to in this case rescue two down pilots or down pilot and a WSO, weapon systems officer. So, that's a what an amazing rescue that just got that those guys just conducted just a a day ago. But, when this comes out, it'll be like, you know, a month in the in the past by by this point. So, you know, what we're doing, it seems it they are going after the the the means of of your enemy and the will of your your enemy. So, before something turns into you know, when the center of gravity becomes a populace like an insurgency like we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan, you know, that's a that's a different different type of a story. Right now, the center of gravity is not that, which which means we're going after still going after the means, obviously, cuz they still have means to shoot down our our our aircraft. So, they're we're still doing that. We're a month into it at the time of this recording, just a slightly over over a month, and we're still going after the means and and the will. We're going through the leadership still at this point. And I think the goal of the administration is to find someone that they can that they can work with. Whether you call that regime change or regime alteration, I don't know. But, the administration is also strategically ambiguous in how they message, and they do that for a reason. So, it gives your opponent some fodder, but it also allows you to to negotiate with your enemy without having all your cards on the table, which we obviously know that the president does from his business background. So, it's a I mean, I'm that it's I like to look at things through that historical perspective. So, I, you know, we don't just we don't don't know that much about what's going on. Even as transparent as this administration is, there's still a lot of of subterfuge in order to to protect our forces that are out there. So, what comes next? I don't know. But, but looking back on it, when we look back on this in a year or 2 years, my hope, and of course, hope is not a course of action, and I don't think that those people that are in that are elected representatives or our military leadership positions right now are relying certainly relying on hope, because they were at the receiving end of the decisions that in Iraq and Afghanistan over that two-decade-long involvement in in in Afghanistan and then that, you know, decade plus in in Iraq. But, I would think that they're applying those lessons to the current problem set. I trust that they are. But, we'll look back in a year, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, and and we'll really be able to to to draw some lessons out to apply to the next problem set. Let me get you to comment actually on that, because, you know, we're we're sitting here, we're less than 24 hours or just over 24 hours since it was announced that we got the the pilot back, because two had to eject. One was found almost immediately, and the second one, even just the initial reports of what was done, the amount of lives and the amount of money that was risked to go and get I say money in terms of the the the planes that were used and then the types of weaponry. And the thing is is I keep hearing about how the will of America is broken, the spirit of America is broken, and we're not who we used to be, and we don't have moral authority. And yet, look at the heaven and earth that we moved to just if you could think about it like another country, ah, it's just one pilot. It's just one human being, and a lot of our adversaries, that's how they would view the situation. If their pilot got shot down and landed in our backyard, are they going to move heaven and earth even if they had the capability to do it to go get a pilot? They may go get it to go get one of their drones, maybe to, you know, keep some of their, you know, high-tech secrets secret. They may go do it to do that. But, to go rescue a person, ah, it's not really in their bailiwick, right? And so, just comment on that about, you know, we keep hearing these rumors about the the death of our own country, but look at what we did just to preserve one life. And of all the days to go and find that man, Easter morning is whenever we go and get him. I mean, come on. I mean, you can't script that any better. And to lose no additional lives going in after these guys, I mean, oh my goodness. But, it sends a message to the force that, hey, we will come for you. I mean, that's that's a huge message to send to the force to instill that trust up and down the chain of command. Sends a message to our allies. Sends a message to our adversaries. So, it's it sends a message really across the board, and it's powerful one. Hey guys, real quick. I know a lot of you train for very specific things. 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And for a limited time, Mountain Tough is extending Undaunted Lifers like you an incredible offer. Go to mountaintough.com. That's mtntough.com and enter the code Kyle when you sign up for a monthly plan to receive your first month free after your 14-day trial. So, that's 6 weeks free to make sure this is for you. I'm sure it will be. That is 6 weeks free on the best-in-class physical and mental training app in the world. So, stop wasting time. It's time to get real fitness results. Let my friends at Mountain Tough guide the way. Again, go to mtntough.com. Promo code Kyle. Well, let's go ahead and talk a little bit about the cat that you kind of already let out of the bag cuz you talked about this in the I think in the preface to your new book and you even mentioned it there. James Reece is not dead, nor is he retired. Ladies and gentlemen, there will be another novel in the Terminal List series. And so, we're going to have an eighth thriller. But obviously, you know, yeah, I got to ask the question. When are we going to get that? What's going to happen? And again, we need something, right? I mean, these guys were seven episodes in with you in the in the Jack Carr series on Undaunted Life a Man's podcast. You got to tell my audience stuff that you won't tell everybody else. So, give us all spill all the beans. Let's go. All right, let's see what I can do here. Uh well, it should have been coming out this May or June. And this co-written thriller, this one right here, the fourth option we're talking about, should have come out in January, February. That was my Actually, it should have come out in January, February of last year. That was my initial plan. But it just took me a lot longer to find a co-author that that I wanted to work with in this. So, it just took a while to get going. I haven't done this before. There's no model really that tells you tells you the mechanics behind it. You know, of course from the fan perspective, I saw Tom Clancy in the '80s writing uh Hunt for Red October and The Sum of All Fears Rising and Patriot Games and Cardinal of the Kremlin and then branch out in the early '90s into co-written non-nonfiction and co-written thrillers as well. So, I saw that from the fan perspective, from the readership perspective, but there's no mechanics behind how you do that. And your publisher, your agent, or at least mine, don't tell me anything about how to do it because I think every situation and every co-written thriller relationship, I think is different. That's why. There's no real model for how to do it other than that you can do it. That's it. Right. Uh and uh so, we're about I'm about a year behind on this one. Actually, a year and a little bit because it was My original plan was January, February of last year. Didn't happen. So, then it was January, February of this year. But my as we talked about last time for Cry Havoc, that took me so long. So, that's my first military thriller, Vietnam, 1968. Took me so much longer to do that research and write that because it wasn't contemporary research. It was 1968. Everything had to be written through that lens of 1968. And every single character could only bring their life experience up to 1968 to the problems that to the conversation, to the story. That took way longer than anticipated cuz once again, it was my first time what we were writing essentially historical fiction. So, that put me way behind. Um so, that was a very long way of saying James Reece 8 should be next year around May, June time frame. Um but I'm working on that right now. And uh then there should be This also hasn't been announced yet. A new targeted book. I won't I won't spill the beans on the exact I've kind of gotten into that in in interviews over the last year or so. And if people go to my social channels, they can scroll through and see where I've traveled. And they can probably get a good idea of what I'm researching. But uh that should be coming out at the early 2027. So, that should be out before the next James Reece. And uh and then the next fourth option the next fourth option, Chris Walker's going to be back. I have it planned out in my head already where he goes next and where he goes after that. So, I have the second book and the third book in the series already envisioned. So, um so, that might be coming out in 2027, 2028 as well. Depends on how how long it takes. But for me, the product has to be In this case, the product is the books, has to be the best it can possibly be. Um and if I have to take an extra year, an extra year and a half, whatever it takes, that's kind of my my pact. That's my um uh my understanding with the readership, with the listenership is that each book is going to get better. I'm going to improve in a as an author each time. You're going to get my very best effort each time because you're trusting me with this time that you're never going to get back in these pages. So, uh so, that's what I owe you. And if I have to I have to push it a year, push it 6 months, whatever else, uh that's what's going to happen. I'm not just going to rush to get something out there that is ever subpar. So, that's that's my that's my red line, I guess. Even and and as an author, you know, at least for me, I can only speak from my experience, you're in a lot of pressure. You're the only person that can say, "This not I'm still working on it. Back off." to your publisher, to your agent. And then even your family. Your family's like, "Shouldn't this be done by now? Or hey, when's this going to be done?" Or you know, that sort of a thing. So, it's not like pressure hate do this. It's a different kind of pressure um because of course it's taking time away from your your family as well. But um it has to be the best that it can possibly be. And I have to get better with each and every outing. So, that's my that's my compact. So, or my pact with the uh with with the readership and listenership. So, that was that was what was That's three three things right out of the gate there. So, yeah. James Reece 8 in the works. Uh I know where Chris Walker's going next for his next two at least. And uh and wrapping up the uh the next targeted that should be out next uh early next year. So, those are three big ones coming out of the pipe. >> You knocked out a bunch of questions that I was going to ask. So, I appreciate you doing it all in one fell swoop. But I will say this from the the beginning. Every time you've been on this show, I'm pretty sure, you've echoed the same sentiment, which is I can't give back my readers' time. I could potentially give them back their money. I could give them a refund. I could I could, you know, say I'm sorry. I could try to do better next time. But you can't give them the time back that they invest into a four or 500-page thriller. And so, I you know, you and I are very alike in that to where it's like when I approach a podcast, whether it's an interview with an author or something that I'm doing solo or a Bible study or anything like that, I'm like, "If they listen to me for an hour, I can't give them the hour back." And if they get to the end of the hour and they go, "Well, that was a waste of time." That's a disastrous outcome for me and especially for them. And so, it is incumbent upon me, it's incumbent upon you to work as unto the Lord so that we are prepared to give our best effort and put our best foot forward. And I'm chopping at the bit to get to the fourth option, you know. We'll get there in just a second. But I do want to kind of ask, James Reece, we got the eighth thriller come out. We've seen you know, we've seen his maturation. We've seen him evolve from The Terminal List through the seventh thriller. And as we get further, can you see the end point for that character? Because for a lot of authors that you've mentioned and ones that you will you'll mention in your acknowledgement section or any of those types of things, some of them just took the same character for tens or dozens of of of thrillers and of novels. And they just kind of kept putting them same guy, rinse, repeat, drop them in a new setting or things like that. And if we're being honest, sometimes that can get kind of stale. And it's like, "Hey, is this is this Superman or is this man-man?" And and what are we doing? Just like dropping him all over the world. It's like he's already saved the world 14 times from nuclear war. Like how often can we do this? But for you as an author, as the person in control of James Reece, can you envision where he ends up? Or do you already have that in mind? You just haven't written yourself there yet? Yeah, I No, I don't. I don't know. Um and I never want to get have it stale. I always want this this character to be evolving because that's what we're all doing in life. And I think that's something that differentiates James Reece from other characters out there. He's evolving. He's learning from the lessons of the previous book and applying them to what's happening in this current book type of a thing. So, he's evolving as a person over time just like we all are on our journeys. He's on a journey. We're all on a journey. That's what he has in with every single person on the planet. So, I was very from the outset, I was very cognizant of exactly what you just said right there. And I didn't want to just take him and have the same character get dropped into each novel to save the world in a different way. No, he had to evolve as a person. And I have I have personal type of conflicts and exploration going on in each of the novels as well [clears throat] as he evolves as a person. Now, I do want to age him slowly. That's the other part of it. Like I don't want to keep him like 40-ish forever. Uh I'm going to age him slowly. That's what I've I've come to. Uh and some some characters out there, they age in real time or real time-ish. Uh and that means for a successful series like Daniel Silva Gabriel Allon, he's in his 70s. Um for Bob Lee Swagger from uh Stephen Hunter's uh series, which I which I love. And I love both those series, Daniel Silva and and Stephen Hunter are just fantastic authors and great people as well. Um but those guys are old. I think they might even be in their 80s or now. But uh but I'm going to age my guy a little bit slower, I think, just to give me a little more uh room to work with. And I think the uh there's some characters uh out there. Uh like Robert B. Parker uh Spencer has been around for for a long time. And and and readers kind of, you know, go with it. They want to They want some They want some more Spencer or whatever it might be. So, they they go with it. But uh uh aging slowly. So, I don't see an end. But it would have been a great I mean, he had There was a nice arc between those first seven from The Terminal List to Red Sky Morning. That was a nice arc. And so, then I knew at the end of that arc, that was time to explore the dad, 1968 Vietnam with Cry Havoc. So, that was the right time to do that. Uh I want to have I want to keep going with Tom Reece as well. Move him into the '70s and then into the '80s. Um but of course, I need more time, which we all do, right? So, need to figure figure that out. So, I'm just going to keep writing writing books and do what come what feels natural. So, now that I did that first Tom Reese, now it felt natural to go back and bring James Reese back into the mix. And then the challenge for me as an author is how do you do that? How do you do that in a in a in a in an authentic way? And of course, I'm going to um you know, you have a uh so there's there's some parameters there. There's not as many as there are in in television or or film, of course. Um but you want it to be an authentic you want it to feel authentic to the reader. And then of course, the action you want that to be uh authentic and come from a heart and soul and dig back into things that happened in Iraq and Afghanistan and apply those feelings and emotions to a completely fictional narrative to make it feel real because it those things come from a real place. And that's what I did in the fourth option as well. So, once again, a very long way of saying that yes, James Reese is is coming back. Tom Reese will be back. And then I have some some ideas from for some other family members and some some friends as well and their families. So, >> to hear more about that family in South Africa. Just dropping that in the bucket for you. But I said I was going to get to the fourth option. I lied because you you brought something up for me cuz I was going to ask about this cuz as far as I know, the Terminal List season 2, so this would be following on into the True Believer thriller, you know, filming is wrapped. It's in post-production. We assume the release is going to be sometime this year. Like but who actually knows? You know, we'll we'll we'll we'll get the announcement when we get when we get the announcement. But my question is is this summer Chris Pratt turns 45 years old. And like you know, his well, so his his shooting schedule like well, that's according to the internet. The internet would never would never lie. Or no, I think he turns 46 47. Anyway, he's he's marching his way to 50 years old, right? How much longer can he play the James Reese character, especially if we're taking years in between seasons of the Terminal List, right? Because we're we're going to have our eighth thriller soon, but it's taking years with his other obligations. I'm sure there'll be another Mario movie. I'm sure there's going to be another Jurassic Park movie. I'm sure he's going to be A-listed on some other shows or movies or whatever. And so it's like you you can't replace Chris Pratt at this point because that's James Reese, right? Like you you you just can't change him to a different actor. Like that you can't pull a switcheroo. But realistically, like how dedicated is he to the James Reese universe? And how dedicated can he be to the universe? Yeah, I think I think this uh this is a great question. And if the answer is it's all up to Chris, uh that's the right answer. But he answers this when I ask him this on my podcast. So, he just did it. We did about an hour or so on on my podcast that uh is focused on Dark Wolf. And so that's out there right now. People can find that on the on Spotify, Apple, and and my YouTube channel. But uh he answers this himself. So, uh so people can go there and and check it out. But um yeah, he's a That's the thing about having an A-list actor in something like this uh that's kind of at the at their in their prime at the at the top of their game type of a thing. They have a lot of uh options and opportunities out there. Um they have a lot of uh competing projects out there. I shouldn't say competing projects. They have a lot of options. Um so that's so it's taking a little bit of time to get this going. We also had a writer's strike in there, which put us behind by a year year and a half. Uh that was not helpful. So, there's some things like that that came in. Just just you know, that's just life. That that's how how it goes. But uh but we'll see. We'll see what happens next. Uh I What did you say on the podcast about Savage Son? I think we did discuss that. So, uh so we we shall see. But but also I think there is a time you can pass the torch. I mean, of course, they're the most successful uh franchise in this genre in history, James Bond. Yeah. Multiple times now. Uh do it with the uh the Jack Ryan, which multiple actors have played Jack Ryan over the years. Um so there's a there's a precedent for for uh for passing the torch. And uh we shall we shall see. Well, you just let Chris know that if he's wondering what Kyle thinks about that process, let him know that still my favorite of all the things you've done is Savage Son. For whatever reason, to unseat Savage Son is going to take something fairly substantial cuz everything's up there, but Savage Son is kind of like at the pinnacle. He's got to at least do that one. And so he's just got to give us through Savage Son and then we can we can explore other things. But just let him know that's what I said if he asks. Is that cool? I sure I I will definitely let him know. Uh and it's I think that act's actually kind of the plan is to you know, see them We're talking about that. You know, that's out of my my hands. But uh discussing that with uh with Amazon and his team and uh see what we can do on on Savage Son and then have a have a discussion after that and uh see where we go from there. Well, I think that would actually be somewhat poetic. You know, obviously not being a poet myself, but there were a lot of people like obviously you have the Terminal List, you've got True Believer, Savage Son. People didn't really start really finding you until Savage Son or thereafter. Like it wasn't like they flew completely under the radar, but you know how it is. New thriller writer writes a writes a novel. Okay, that's not that unique. Is this person going to be around? Is there going to be a follow-up? It's hard to really dive in. But then whenever they discover you, whether you go on the Joe Rogan experience or something like that, it's like, oh, there's already three of these. And then there's the new one. So, okay, I can go back. So, yeah, I think it would almost be poetic if if Chris was able to do at least those first three. Especially with the amount the amount of emotion, the familial team-based emotion with the Terminal List, and then the new setting, my favorite setting of all of your novels, which is True Believer, which we've talked about. And then going into Savage Son, which is the most interesting tit-for-tat battle, I guess you could say. I'll leave it vague for the for those purposes. But the uniqueness of that, I think that would could kind of bring his contribution to the universe full circle. But I need to get out of my own way because we're here to talk about the fourth option, dadgummit. We need to sell some books, Jack. But this book, as you've already mentioned, it is the first thriller. We each got our our copies here. It's the first thriller that you did with a co-author. So, you did Targeted Beirut with a co-author, but this was written with M.P. Woodward. You already mentioned you wanted to work with another author on the series as a co-author, but you have to find not just a partner, the right partner. I'm sure the decision wasn't just the easiest thing in the world. Uh the writing process, obviously that's going to be a little bit different cuz you've done non-fiction with a co-author, but this is fiction, you know, creativity and all the different ways the character could go. You got to make sure you're kind of in sync with that person. And I always ask them derivative of why this book, why now, why you? So, I'm going to ask all those questions and why Chris Walker? Yeah, yeah. Let me go back real quick to to Savage Son. So, you're right. Exactly. That one hit the New York Times list and that was before I was on Rogan. That was before I was on a Fox News show. That was before I was on any like what people would consider like, you know, the bigger type shows or whatever. Um and so it hits before that, which I like now. I'm so glad that Joe didn't ask me on before. And then cuz then people could say, oh, the only reason you hit the list is cuz Joe Rogan had you on. So, I'm so thankful to him now that he didn't have me on before that. Uh and some other people as well with some of those, you know, bigger shows or whatever. But uh but that was cool. So, now I'm like, okay, I like that. So, Savage Son hit and just like you said, then the first two hit. And so all of them have been New York Times bestsellers. But but Savage Son hit first. That brought the first two on there cuz people discovered it at Savage Son and they were like, oh, there's two more. Go back and read those two. Boom boom. And then they've all been, you know, on the list since then. But uh but exactly like you just said, uh people found it at Savage Son. I mean, people found it Some people found it before that. And I'm just grinding away trying to do everything I possibly can. Doing my blogs and doing my social posts that once again add value to someone's life every day. Aren't just posting memes and aren't doing, you know, that sort of thing. Just like trying to add value to people's lives throughout the year. Uh starting the podcast, that came a little bit later. But uh all those things that that one needs to do today to essentially compete with every single app out there. Every single streaming service out there. Every single social media out there. All the outrage on those social channels that is maybe even fabric not fabricated, but uh manipulated by an algorithm that's just programmed or whatever to keep you here on your phone not reading. Uh so you have to compete with all of those things, which obviously authors didn't have to do in the past. So, you have to do all of that now. But um I was a very long way of saying you were absolutely right there about Savage Son and then kind of things going going from there and continuing to get to grow. Um and you always have to continue to grow and create readers. You can't rely on uh you know, readers of the past because those one they're dying. You can die off or whatever. But you have to create a constantly create new readers. And you have to constantly create younger readers as well. That's so important is to build these new readers. And I don't even care if they're reading me or anybody else. They're going to be they're going to read they're going to live such a richer fuller life if they're if they're reading every day rather than just doom scrolling [clears throat] every day. So, it's anyway, I just try to do what I can. And this is my contribution to that are these are these books and then my my outreach or however I can engage with people and bring them into the the fold as as readers. But um why now for Chris Walker? It was well past time. And uh it was summer of 2021 and uh I was doing finishing up filming the Terminal List in L.A. and I started thinking, what are some other things outside the James Reese Terminal List that I can uh that I can work on? And I went back to some of those ideas that I had when I first wrote down all my ideas and put them on the kitchen table back in 2014 when I was still in the military. Uh it was very clear back then that the Terminal List was the one to start with. I wanted to start with Savage Son. And but uh I the characters weren't developed to a place where I could explore those themes of Savage Son. So, it was very clear. Uh it wasn't even wasn't even close. Terminal List is the one to start with. Um so I did that, but I had Fourth Option in that pile as well. So, summer of 2021, we're wrapping up. Couple weeks left to go on the on the shoot for Terminal List. And just I started thinking in my hotel room. We had a day off or something. And I'm just thinking more about some other projects that I could do. I revisited those and kept coming back to Fourth Option. I thought, oh, this would be really cool to explore this. Um similar character, meaning uh background-wise, uh skill set-wise. But like for me, it's not hard to think of uh you who has a similar background as a different person and a different character because all of us in the SEAL Teams, which is my only experience in the military, is different person. We're bringing our backgrounds to the SEAL Teams and that that really made us able to adapt well on the battlefield because you have people coming from from Maine, Florida, Ohio, from cities, from small towns, from the middle of nowhere, from you know, it it people have never seen the ocean before. Some people grew up seeing the ocean every day and people are bringing all of that experience to now this shared background that we have because we all went through BUD/S SEAL training. We all went through SEAL qualification training or SEAL tactical training and now we're in our SEAL Team and our platoons and we're working together going through these workups and getting to know our our standard operating procedures together, getting ready to go down range, sharing this mission and and so all of those people in that platoon, every platoon that I was in, everybody's different. And so it's not hard for me, but I can see someone from the outside saying, "Oh, similar character, SEAL, CIA." type of a thing. But everybody is different and so I still wanted to keep that authenticity. I do have some ideas for characters in books down the line that where people don't have that background, but this one I really wanted to keep that that visceral authenticity that I can dig down to and think about what it was like to be a sniper in Ramadi, think about what it was like to be ambushed in Baghdad, think about what it was like to deal with a big bureaucracy, think about all of those things and apply those feelings and emotions to this totally fictional narrative. I thought that's still important, that's still foundational to everything that I do. So Chris Walker has that background, but he's very different from James Reece and I wanted him to be other than that, I wanted him to be very different. So he's not a family man like James Reece is or was. He he he he has his dog as his companion. He's dealing with this guilt from the battlefield. I have a little bit of that in the in The Terminal List, but not as much as I dive into here because it's really all consuming for this character and the impetus for it wasn't the the execution of a family like in The Terminal List. It's it's there, it's been simmering. He's trying to work through it like so many people that have spent time in the military have had to had to deal with that post-traumatic stress and everything that goes along with it, the emotional and physical trauma of the battlefield. So I wanted to bring I wanted to explore that this time, but I didn't want it to be a trope. So meaning I didn't want it to be and this is you know, you can write great thrillers and never have served in the military and you can write a great thriller and just have your character be dealing with things that you think that people in the military would have to deal with and and have that your experience be formed by Hollywood, television, film, other books that you've read, that sort of thing, maybe documentaries that you've seen, that that sort of a thing. But I wanted mine to still come from that heart and soul and so that's very important to me in in all that I do, but particularly in in this where Chris Walker's dealing with those ghosts of the past and he's about to end it when he gets the call that saves it. And that was really the beginning of the Chris Walker saga that I started back in December of 2014 when I started writing the the Terminal List and and decided to go with the the Terminal List and then revisited in 2021 in the summer and then built into this 40-page PowerPoint presentation essentially and then I had it out in Hollywood for for a bit. Then I clawed it back. I had a couple projects out there and it was interesting in that when I have a book like the Terminal I don't mind that the Terminal List isn't a you know, word-for-word adaptation because I recognized very early on that hey, even before I was even in Hollywood that the book First Blood very different from the movie First Blood, both awesome. And so that's how I approached Hollywood and also as a student, I'm a student of everything that I that I do in life. So but to see the Terminal List change from what it was in the novel to what it is on screen, that doesn't bother me at all. We're trying to make the best show possible and and sometimes we'll succeed, sometimes maybe we'll fail, but we'll learn from those failures, applying them going to the next project and try to do better each and every time. But people can always go back to the best that I could do at the time. There's always that foundational material. With the Fourth Option with this other project that I that I had out there in Hollywood, I saw those like 40-point page PowerPoint presentations that I had built up start to morph from there. So they'll never there would never have been a book that somebody could go back to and say, "Oh, here's the foundational material. Here's how it was adapted to screen." It would just be the adaptation to screen from my original idea outline treatment. And I had a much harder time with that. Like I said, no really don't have a hard time with that with the books at all, but when it wasn't a book and it was just this idea and this treatment and this outline, seeing that morph, that was very difficult for me. So I got to pull those things back fortunately and Fourth Option was one of those. So it became very clear to me that next one, Fourth Option, Chris Walker, dive in stranger comes to town narrative inspired by Have Gun Will Travel 50s and 60s western. Each book will have a different city as a backdrop and so differentiate it from the from the Terminal List series, which is more not all of them, but most of them are more geopolitical in nature and this is that stranger comes to town narrative. Instead of a horse, he's got a Volkswagen bus from the 80s, at least in this in this first one and he's got his dog and they come to town and they bring this outlaw brand of justice to this town. So so that's the that was the background for the Fourth Option. Well, I remember when I even heard the announcement for the Fourth Option, the very first thing I thought was Shane. So that's my favorite of the western novels. Just the thought of it and then you even list Shane, I believe in your in your preface where you talk a little bit about that. But obviously considering that both James Reece and Chris Walker come from a special operations background, it could be like, "Oh gosh, these these guys are going to seem too much the same." You've already elucidated some of the differences between the two characters. But >> [clears throat] >> there's a line from page 331 of the book. This is actually a thought in Walker's head. It's short. It says, "I left honor behind a long time ago." That was a thought. That was a thought to himself that you gave us, you know, inside into. And even as I was reading the book, Jack, which by the way, I told you this often and I'll say it again, I'm kind of dumb and so it's hard for me to read fiction because I kind of lose track of the thread if I if I start daydreaming for a page or two, I could literally lose the entire narrative arc of what's happening. But with [clears throat] this one, Ray Porter's job was not done quite yet and so literally it's like this was the only time we could do the interview. So I had to just read it old school. I never lost the thread once. I never lost the thread once on the Fourth Option and so it just kept me involved the entire way. But as I was reading, Jack, I'll take notes in the margins, things that I notice, questions that I might have and one of my notes that I wrote maybe about a third of the way through the book is, "Chris Walker's more brutal than James Reece." Oh, interesting. Yeah, and so and so yeah, you say that because the Fourth Option is one book. We've got seven books of brutality from James Reece. If you watch The Terminal List series on Amazon, it's some of the most incredible fight scenes that you'll ever see and some of the ways that James Reece dispenses with some of his enemies are fairly brutal, right? You know, the the logo on your hat will remind people of that and the things that he was able to do with that. But the reason why I say brutal, Jack, is not because of how he is sending people to the afterlife, it's because of the why. It's almost like he's a little bit more sociopathic because James has this empathic reach because his wife and his daughter, right? That's where the entire thing starts, the brutality of them being taken out. No spoilers, guys, it's been out for a long time now. But we don't have that attachment. As you've already said, like this isn't a family man. Like he's got his Belgian Malinois and he's got his philosophical underpinnings and things that kind of undergird his worldview and how he operates. But he's a little bit more agnostic. He's a little bit more I say sociopathic, but not in a derisive way. He's just more detached from what he has to do in order to do the things that he feels compelled to do if if that makes sense. It does and that was intentional as well. There's a the the the Dexter influence. So you mentioned Shane, there's a little bit of Megaton Seven in there, a little bit of High Plains Drifter in there, a little bit of Pale Rider in there, maybe a little maybe more the Pale Rider in there and some others. Have Gun Will Travel of course being foundational to to all of that. But then also maybe a dash of the A-Team, maybe more than a dash of the 80s Equalizer. A few other things in there, Tat, even a drop of Airwolf in there, I think. But but Dexter, bit of Reacher probably, but you know, Reacher is also a stranger comes to town, which is also Old West. So it's so there's there's those elements in there, but it was very intentional with the sociopathic type of detachment cuz I did want to differentiate him from James Reece and just didn't want him to you know, go through it what is essentially a list which so I it couldn't be that. And if you got you got to the end, you know, it doesn't end up now I don't want to give too much away. But I have this the this law enforcement character also, Jared Stanton and he's essentially the opposite of Chris Walker. He's the family man. He's been to college. He's been to law school. He's been an FBI agent. He's never had to shoot anyone in the line of duty because he's a data man and he's building cases and he's brilliant and they get closer. He's on James he's on Chris Walker's tail throughout this getting closer and closer to tracking down this vigilante in New Orleans and then throughout that process, he's getting a little closer to that line as well and then comes up right against it in the end. So I wanted to bring them closer together throughout this story and then get to the end and not have it be and then like I have in a lot of the Terminal List books where everybody gets whacked type of a thing. I mean a lot of people get whacked, that's for sure. But I also wanted to bring these those two guys together and and differentiate from the Terminal List in that way as well. Well, and there's there's always the importance of making sure that the characters are developed. You already mentioned, you know, why can't you start with Savage Son even though that's where you wanted to start, is because we didn't give a crap enough about James Reece yet to even be able to feel the tension of Savage Son. We needed to build up his background, build up his familial background, build up his friend network before you can even do Savage Son. But as you also mentioned with the the fourth option series, there's going to be a different setting, a different city that he's going to be a part of. And so the city of New Orleans, which is where the first the the fourth option is set, that's like one of the characters of the book. It was like I was remembering whenever I the last time I read um you know, Gates of Fire by Ste- Steven Pressfield, who's a good buddy of both of ours. You know, Thermopylae, the the hot gates, that is a character, right? Just like Leonidas is a character, just like uh Ephialtes is a character in the book. You've you've got a place, right? And and a place is it's an inanimate thing, but it also kind of feels like a living organism, right? If if you spend any time in New Orleans, it's it's kind of got its own gravitational pull, it's got its own oxygen, like it's just kind of interesting. And all throughout the fourth option, you're bringing people to New Orleans. And so it's one thing during the research process to just pick a city and be like, "Oh, this is where it's going to be." It's kind of like, you know, you watch a movie and it'll be set in some city, but it's not shot in the city. And so the people that live there are like, "That building's not in my city. Like what is what are these people trying to to talk about? That's somewhere else." And so I guess why did you pick New Orleans from the beginning in the process of making sure that you were true to the spirit of New Orleans as you were writing? Yeah, I'd been there twice in the SEAL teams and it really made an impression. And I knew even back then, I didn't think about what it would be, but I knew that one day I would set a novel in New Orleans. Um that was very clear. I just knew that was that was just on my list of things to do. And uh that was very clear to me that this was the one to start with because it's so vibrant. I needed to keep this in one place essentially. Although it starts in the Pacific Northwest, but I wanted he needs to travel. He can't be just like just just on the outskirts. I guess I could have kept him mysterious, but uh he needed to to have that those first scenes in the Pacific Northwest where he's thinking of taking his own life, gets that call that saves him, and then he needs to travel. And as he's traveling, he's thinking and that reader is getting to know this character because of what is going on in his head, how he gets from the Pacific Northwest to New Orleans. And then he pulls into town and then things start happening. But I needed to take him on that on that journey so that everybody could get to know him. If they're a listener or reader, um they could get to know that character through on that journey. And then bam, we're into the action when he hits New Orleans. But I just knew I always wanted to set something there because it has such a a different history. You know, every every place has a different history. But uh but it it it's just so unique uh when you compare it to anywhere else in the United States. So I really wanted to use that for this first city that Chris Walker visits. All right, very good. You just want to go ahead and tell us where the next couple of cities are going to be? You just want to go ahead and tell us where >> I know exactly already, but I maybe I'll keep it I'll keep it close hold for now. All right. Well, if it's in Oklahoma, I demand to be in the series. I can be just a ginger extra that is shot off the top of a building or something like that. But if it's anywhere near Oklahoma, you just holler at your boy. But there is something interesting about your books. Obviously, I've asked you this before and you've been asked this a lot like how much of Jack Carr is there in James Reece, right? Like how much does Jack Carr wish he would you know, was James Reece? Like those types of questions. But there's always thoughts or insights from the characters in your book that I'm like, "Okay, is this the character's insight? Is it Jack's or is it a combination of the two?" So I keyed in on something on page 43 of The Fourth Option. So this is a another thought from Walker, not something he said, but a thought. He thought of the chaos that had accompanied the rise of social media, the deterioration of civil discourse, logic, and reason, and the creation of platforms that had turned a republic into a democracy. So keying in on the last part there, that had turned a republic into a democracy. Is that Chris Walker's thought? Is that Jack's thought? Or is it both? It's well, it's Chris Walker's, but it certainly came from me. And it's something I was I've been thinking about thinking thought about it for for a long time. Of course, I've actually woven that into the the uh the Terminal List series a little bit as well, but I was very uh on the nose with it here uh just because man, I mean, when you think about a republic versus a democracy and electing representatives. So you're not electing leaders, you're electing representatives. You're electing people to represent your interests in in this case in Congress. Um uh presidency. Um in the executive uh you know, uh in the in the legislation legislative branch. Um but once you get these platforms that essentially democratize free speech, now you have a lot of chaos. Yeah. So instead of your interests being represented by someone who then goes to a body, goes to the legislature, goes to the legislative branch, represents your interests in California, in Oklahoma, in Florida, wherever you wherever you're from. Um now you just have people spending their time uh and making a living off of creating chaos in what is now the town square without having to invest anything in it. >> Yeah. Without having to go to the ballot box, without having to uh to write to the representative, without having to go in the old days knock on on the door or sit down or or whatever it whatever it is. Um so now it's a tool. And what are tools? Well, tools can all be weapons as well. So these platforms are tools and they're being weaponized uh across the board by uh by a foreign entities, of course, by political parties, by individuals making a living off of it, by bots, by foreign intelligence services, what whatever it might be to manipulate. So the democratization of free speech um really hasn't allowed everyone's voice to be heard. Uh it has allowed for the weaponization of what's a great idea, but we are a republic and that that's uh that means that we have representatives going to represent us in these in these bodies. And that's that's how it's organized. Now, think of it in the other way. Uh so if it wasn't the democratization of free speech and it was the democratization of our system of government, that means everyone is converging on the the legislature and everyone's forcing their way in and shouting and uh and has their their own reasons for for doing so. Uh and it's chaos. So anyway, it was my way of just for a character to think through that uh as he's uh as he's driving he was driving in that in that case. But but a pretty on the nose uh comment from him about where we are as people right now. Okay, very good. Well, Jack, we've uh we've gone everywhere in this conversation. I'll make this the last question of the day. And so I thought about this before because obviously we have all the thrillers. You've elucidated some of the thrillers that we're going to have and how the James Reece universe is going to expand. The Chris Walker universe is going to expand. You've even talked about Targeted, right? So we're going to go from Targeted Beirut to Targeted {colon} who knows what. We'll get the announcement when we get the announcement. But my my curiosity for you is cuz I've seen I guess echoes of what I'm about to ask in some of your interviews that you've done, in some of your social posts. Do you have any plans of writing a non-fiction, non-historical book? Meaning this is an opinion book. This is coming from I me my. This is coming from Jack's perspective and it's going to be about where the future is gone, right? So you have The People's History of the United States of America by Howard Zinn, you know, you have nonsense books like that. But then it's like, can we get something from you where you're not just rehashing some terrorist attack or some battle or, you know, kind of figuring out some fantasy world that you want your character to be involved in, but hey, me as the author with the with the name Jack Carr, here's what I think about these very very important societal issues. And here is some ways that it could help you if you thought differently. I would say that's last on my list if it's even on the list at all. Um there are plenty of people who do that. It's not that hard to do. Um I you know, focus on the thrillers, on the the non-fiction work that uh isn't pop history. Um meaning it's actual uh history working from uh uh primary source documents. Um something people can go back to for for decades and decades. Um I don't like to take the easy path, I guess. Um and there's just it's I think it's uh it's oversaturated for me. Meaning yeah, I can sit down and I can write that stuff and I feel like I've written it in blogs and talked about it in interviews and done it, but I think I'll keep it to those realms. Um if I do write something closer to that, I can see it being more, let's say, a book on uh creativity and and answering those questions essentially. Like I I can't tell you how other people have done it, but I can tell you how how I did it here. And through that incorporate maybe some experiences and some of the the things that you mentioned there naturally into that type of a book. Um but I don't think it's going to be one of those ones that I just say, "Here's my here are my views on the the republic and the state of the world and whatever else." Um I just I just I don't know. It it it seems like that's just adds to the chaos I was talking about earlier rather than uh does what is more me, which is add to that foundational elements. Meaning uh uh those books that you have to invest your time, energy, and effort into like Targeted Beirut, um like the next Targeted. And even through through fiction, you learn so much um and develop I shouldn't say learn. You develop so much empathy and compassion through reading fiction uh that you really don't get anywhere else unless you put yourself in someone else's shoes who has to deal with the situation, whatever it might be. But uh that kind of literature is is so valuable. And people are getting away from that. And guess what else is happening? All those things I just talked about earlier, guess what it's developing? It's developing opposite traits to compassion and empathy. Where do you see compassion and empathy? I'm sure it's I mean, yes, it's out there. The algorithm certainly doesn't favor it um because it wants to get you riled up and it wants to feed you what's your you know what's going to what's going to keep you glued to that screen and most of the time that isn't something that's developing compassion and empathy which meaning our kids aren't developing that because they're not readers. They're on these phones and they're scrolling and it is developing the opposite of compassion and empathy. So for me continue to write thrillers. That's what I that's what I do. That's what I love. That's what I I read growing up. That's what impacted me so much. But then also the non-fiction as well that can help add to the body of the body of knowledge add to understanding into that foundational knowledge so we can make better decisions going forward. So I think I'll do that but I'll once again, that's not that's probably not the big money maker. That's probably be better if I did you know what you said right there and just wrote every couple years one of these things and tossed it out there into the universe but for me that's just that's kind of like just tossing something out there chaos. That's that's doesn't seem like that's me. Well Jack, we could always use some more chaos but if you do eventually do it since it was my idea, I will take a percentage of at least your advance. So I think that's only fair at this point but I really appreciate your time. I know you're busy. You got a lot of these today. A lot of these over the next month before the fourth option comes out. But guys, if you're listening to this on time, the fourth option is out right now. You can check it out in the show notes. We're not going to do the normal intro outro because obviously we don't need to. Everyone knows who you are at this point. But Jack, is there anything else you want to get off your chest? Oh man, I appreciate you having me on. It's always so much fun to talk to you. You always ask great questions and of course I can I can talk about reading and books all day long. It's what I it's what I love. So anytime I can come on and and talk about that. It's it's fun for me. So thanks so much for having me on. You got it. You got it. We'll talk again soon. All right. Take care. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five-star review. If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an email to info@undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else including how to donate to keep more content like this coming. www.undaunted.life. The music on this podcast is the song Conqueror by the Christian metal band Void awaken. Be sure to stream their music on Spotify, Apple Music, and wherever else you get your music. I'm your host, Kyle Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience, keep seeking the lion of Judah. Void awaken. >> [music]