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0:30
[MUSIC]
0:50
This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:54
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
0:56
All right guys, we've got a very special return guest on the podcast.
0:59
His name is Jack Carr.
1:00
He's been on the show, this is his sixth appearance on the show now.
1:03
But if you don't know who he is, he's a retired Navy SEAL.
1:05
He's spent 20 years in Naval Special Warfare.
1:07
And he's the number one New York Times bestselling fiction thriller writer of the James Reese series.
1:12
And he is the creative brain behind the terminalist TV show, and that starts Chris Prada.
1:17
I think most of y'all have seen it at this point.
1:19
But right now they've got a prequel series about Ben Edwards, starring Taylor Kitch.
1:23
It's out.
1:24
It's called Dark Wolf.
1:25
It's absolutely fantastic.
1:26
But again, he's been on the show six times.
1:28
168, 309, 462, 610, 654, and this one.
1:33
And today we're talking about his new thriller series that he's starting about James Reese's
1:37
father, Tom, and book one is called Cry Havoc.
1:40
It is out right now.
1:41
You can check that out in the show notes.
1:43
But in this interview today, we did spend some time talking at the beginning about the
1:47
state of the country, post the assassination of Charlie Kirk, what that means, what it
1:50
means for the next generation, what it means for the conservative movement, and overall
1:54
just what it means for our body politic that we see people openly supporting and celebrating
1:59
the murder of somebody that was exercising their free speech.
2:03
But then we get into, okay, he just wrapped filming the second season of the terminalist
2:08
series starring Chris Pratt.
2:10
And so this is called True Believer and the setting and all the different things and kind
2:13
of what all that entails, what the arc of the Dark Wolf prequel series starring Taylor
2:18
Kitch has been Edwards, what that's going to end up looking like, how that's affecting
2:22
his writing schedule, you know, is he going to be able to, you know, turn out a Tom Reese
2:26
novel every year?
2:27
Is he going to be coming back to the James Reese series?
2:30
So for any of a view that's read through Red Sky Morning, which is the seventh novel of
2:34
the James Reese thriller series, y'all be excited to hear that.
2:37
We talk about that more.
2:38
So at the end, talk about the different TV options he's got going on, the fiction and
2:43
non-fiction options he's got going on to the immediate future.
2:46
Guys, there's always a lot of information when he comes on the show.
2:48
We're always lucky to have him.
2:49
So without further ado, let's get into it.
2:52
Jack Carr, welcome back to a Don life of man's podcast.
2:55
But here's the thing.
2:57
This is your sixth appearance on on Don to life of man's podcast.
3:01
You have officially punched every single slot in your card.
3:05
And so now you get to redeem it for one of two things.
3:09
The first thing is you get two high fives from me in quick succession.
3:13
And the second thing is you get to roll one round of jujitsu with me.
3:16
So you get to choose like one of those two.
3:18
So which one you want?
3:20
I think we'll high five at this stage.
3:22
Yeah, yeah.
3:23
All right.
3:24
Well, so are you saying you haven't quite gotten back into the swing of things gotten
3:27
on the mats?
3:28
Like all that?
3:29
Cause you know, I haven't seen any jujitsu moves pop up in your books in a little bit.
3:32
No, I'm, I, I missed my window, I think for further, I mean, I started early, early 90s.
3:40
And before anyone had heard of Brazilian jujitsu.
3:43
And so that was, that was great.
3:44
They gave me a good foundation, even in my got to buds in 97 and seal qualification
3:49
training in 98, even rolling with guys back then you have seen been out for a few years
3:53
at that point, but still not everybody was familiar with the Brazilian jujitsu.
3:58
And so like, so wrestling guys who had wrestled in high school that still hadn't been exposed
4:02
to BJJ back then and only knowing the most basic, like looking back, like the most basic
4:09
four moves or whatever, you could still do pretty good against those guys that are playing
4:13
high school wrestling, wrestling rules, uh, and they didn't understand the, the, the tap
4:19
out and this and that and arm bars and all the rest of it.
4:21
So that, that was, I think that was my, my peak back then was before everybody started
4:26
diving in.
4:27
Um, and you could feel unless you knew somebody from your, your jujitsu class, uh, you were
4:32
like fairly confident that you, if this thing went to the ground, you're going to end up
4:38
on top.
4:39
You know, you didn't get stabbed by their buddy coming out of the crowd or something.
4:42
But there's always that.
4:44
Yeah.
4:45
So, so, but I think that time has passed for me.
4:47
So whenever I have, I have at this point and the focus is the books and the family.
4:51
Well, I understand that, but we haven't had a few guys roll into the gym with as white
4:55
belts and their 50s.
4:56
So there's always time you can always don't.
4:59
Okay.
5:00
All right.
5:01
Well, fair enough.
5:02
Well, we're going to get into all the stuff that you're working on and where you're currently
5:04
located and why you're there, but, um, I think it's incumbent upon us to have a discussion
5:10
about kind of the state of the country, and we do a little bit of that every time you
5:13
come on the show.
5:14
We've, we've talked about the pull out from Afghanistan.
5:16
We've talked about the war in Ukraine.
5:17
We've talked about a lot of things, but now we're living in this post Charlie Kirk world,
5:22
uh, post the assassination of Charlie Kirk, who was a free speech absolutist doing free
5:26
speech things and he lost his life because of it.
5:29
And I know you're a deep thinker about these things, but excuse me, beyond that, I also
5:33
know that you're a student of all time periods, right?
5:37
So being 39 years old, this is the most extreme political assassination of my lifetime.
5:43
But if you talk to somebody that grew up in the sixties, like there was racial unrest and
5:47
there were a lot of people being murdered.
5:49
There were a lot of assassinations.
5:50
There was an economic downturn.
5:52
There was all these things that were happening.
5:54
So I just want to give you a chance to maybe put our time in context and then talk about
5:59
the impact of Charlie Kirk.
6:00
Yeah.
6:01
And it's just heartbreaking.
6:02
Obviously, I met Charlie once, but our son was very familiar with him would always show
6:08
me the videos from Instagram, TikTok and say coming in and show mom and dad and look at
6:14
look at this.
6:15
And he was having such an impact on that generation and our son was, uh, he probably started showing
6:21
to me to me probably a year or so ago, maybe a year and a half, maybe two years, but so
6:26
those kids that are 12, 13, 14, 15 that are on the social channels and are seeing this.
6:32
Charlie Kirk was having a huge impact on that generation.
6:36
He was having a huge impact on the college generation, but I think more importantly, it
6:40
was, uh, the, the generation before that it was the junior high kids that whether people
6:45
recognize it or not, there was a lot of those kids are on the, on the phones.
6:48
And then they're seeing this guy that's, that's before they make too many mistakes in life.
6:53
Uh, they're getting this advice from, from someone who they can identify with.
6:57
And so it was just so powerful for, uh, for our, our youngest son and his, uh, his peers.
7:02
Um, and then, oh my gosh, when it happened, I tried to call him right away until I'm not
7:07
to look at the socials, um, anybody already seen it.
7:10
So just absolutely the heartbreaking and of course the, the crazy part of all of this is
7:16
that it's going to bring more people back to, back to church, more people, uh, you know,
7:21
questioning, um, uh, maybe some decisions bringing people, yeah, bringing people back
7:26
to that morality.
7:27
Um, and so he said, I have such an impact in death, which is so horrible to say.
7:32
But, um, anyway, I wrote a tribute about it on my, my socials.
7:35
I felt that would be appropriate.
7:37
Um, there was a lot of silence from, from people and I didn't feel it was right to remain silent.
7:43
I did two, two posts on it and try to be as thoughtful as I possibly can.
7:46
And of course we're thinking about, uh, him and his family and, uh, then this lasting
7:50
impact that he's now going to have that's, uh, it's going to live on.
7:54
And I think I rode my, my last line in there and I said something about, yeah, this, this,
7:58
uh, his murderer, uh, silence, a voice for, for free speech and logical thought.
8:04
Um, but what this person really did was give Charlie immortality and that's true.
8:11
Well, I think as well, I've, I mean, I've obviously thought a lot about this.
8:14
Like a lot of people have the, his assassin thought that he was cutting the head off the
8:19
snake, but he didn't realize, Hey, this is a hydra.
8:22
And there everyone kind of looks around for the next person to come up like, oh, who's
8:26
going to be the next Charlie Kirk.
8:28
And I said this on a previous show, I think there's going to be thousands of Charlie
8:31
Kirk's now because with the number of TP USA chapters being applied for the majority of
8:36
those are going to be going into high schools, not colleges.
8:39
And so we're going to be seeing a lot of that.
8:41
But one of my first thoughts, and I just can't get out of my head, Jack, is I feel like
8:45
a Rubicon has been crossed.
8:47
Right.
8:48
And again, this isn't the first political assassination in this country.
8:51
It's not the first political assassination attempt again.
8:53
They tried to turn Donald Trump's head into a canoe, not that long ago.
8:56
Right.
8:57
I say they, right?
8:58
Who is they?
8:59
But we have this, this time period where, and I don't even remember if it was like this
9:06
way when Donald Trump with the attempted assassination because he lived, but the, the outright support
9:12
coming from people, the bold support on social media, on major news network to late shows,
9:19
including the fact that this person was murdered.
9:22
And because here's the thing, like, I'm not a big fan of like, Oh, well, he had a wife
9:25
and kids.
9:26
He shouldn't have been murdered.
9:27
It's like, there's some pretty awful people on this planet that have wives and kids, right?
9:30
But when these people say these horrible things about who Charlie Kirk was, oh, he was a big
9:35
idiot.
9:36
He was a, you know, whatever phobe, then then they can't produce any evidence of that or
9:40
the only thing they can produce is a quote that was maybe taking completely out of context.
9:44
I just had something just been revealed about our body politic or has something shifted Jack.
9:50
Well, it's more of the manipulation that's out there, meaning there are these tools that
9:57
we carry around in our pockets and tools, of course, can be used to build or destroy
10:00
and social media, these phones, the physical devices that we carry around with us.
10:06
These are tools and they can be used for, for good or for evil.
10:10
And in this case, a lot, a lot of the algorithm, I don't even know if it's, especially when
10:14
we get, we move more towards quantum computing and we move even deeper into AI generated code
10:22
and algorithms.
10:24
It might not even be when we say big tech, yeah, it's a maybe, but maybe it's, it's more
10:30
than that.
10:31
Maybe it's an algorithm that's, that's learning, of course, how to generate profits and how
10:34
do you do that?
10:35
Well, you're feeding certain people things to keep them glued to this screen, not just
10:40
to sell them a product, but to manipulate thoughts and behaviors, but it keeps them glued to
10:46
the screen.
10:47
And there's the data, of course, that big tech has to back up what's working.
10:51
So, so now you're being able to dehumanize people because the algorithm says that this
10:56
is going to keep someone glued to the screen is going to rearrange somebody or whatever
11:00
that whatever it is.
11:02
So it's really the dehumanization of your opposing viewpoint.
11:07
So much so that you don't think twice really about murdering them or supporting that act
11:17
through a post that you do for the world to see that will be there forever.
11:24
You are proud to get on.
11:26
So it's the algorithm or big tech and what it's been feeding you and how it's been dehumanizing
11:31
certain segments of society is so powerful that as a citizen with one follower, 10 followers,
11:39
a thousand followers, a million followers, you are comfortable enough to jump on and celebrate
11:44
the murder of another human being in front of a bunch of other young human beings.
11:50
It's I mean, it's so heartbreaking that it almost makes you just want to hang it up and
11:55
just stay up in the mountains in your cabin and not engage at all, which of course is
12:00
not a good answer.
12:02
But because evil triumphs, of course, if you do that, but how comfortable so many people
12:07
were with doing that, I think that's the most telling.
12:10
And you don't even have to be a news anchor or whatever, like a pundit on a show where
12:15
you kind of expect maybe that they're going to say some crazy things.
12:19
It's just somebody on their own little personal account celebrating.
12:25
And some of them, I know you've probably seen them, I mean, they look like witches.
12:29
And it's something about like his and girls, and you're seeing them on their celebrate.
12:34
I mean, they're actual cackles.
12:36
And there's two in particular that jump to mind right now that I'll never forget seeing.
12:41
And it is remarkable that the same there and they're not really saying human beings to
12:46
be able to jump on and do that and cackle like that and laugh and celebrate the death
12:52
of Charlie Kirk that there are some deep psychological issues there.
12:57
But guess what, they have some sort of a platform and feel comfortable enough celebrating the
13:01
death of another human being.
13:03
That's the most concerning part to me when it comes to a societal shift.
13:07
Well, Jack, I think the difference between, you can say, good and evil, left and right,
13:14
however you want to couch it, has never been more stark than right now because of the things
13:18
that you described, because as I've said on my show before, find me a political figure
13:23
or a leftist, you know, host of some show or whatever, like, I don't want death for those
13:30
people.
13:31
I want eternal life for those people.
13:33
So if Chuck Schumer or AOC or Chankweag or some, you know, Jamel Hill or some leftist,
13:42
you know, individual that I disagree with on everything was murdered by somebody with
13:46
different political, cultural or societal views than them, I would see that as a tragedy,
13:52
an absolute tragedy, regardless of what they believed, even though I believe a lot of things
13:56
that they believe and peddle in are evil, right?
13:59
And so I just don't understand why that's so hard, but we see this, this division, but
14:03
and I know you've alluded to this in some of the James Reese novels and things like that,
14:07
but you mentioned the algorithm there, Jack, but I still run into people now, and this
14:12
is coming out a couple of weeks, even after, and it'll still be right then that think that
14:16
the killer was a, was a MAGA person, was a far right individual, right, that, cause MSNBC's
14:23
first thing that they said was, oh, we think it was one of his supporters, I was just shooting
14:27
his gun off in celebration as if that's like a thing, like we live in a Yosemite Sam cartoon.
14:32
But then like, there are still people that think, oh, this guy was just super right wing,
14:36
way more right wing than Charlie Kirk was.
14:39
And then of course you get into the different conspiracy theories about, okay, the multiple
14:42
shooters that kid was supposed to be a Patsy, but then the second shooter forgot to shoot
14:45
the original shooter.
14:46
Oh, the Jews are somehow involved, and you're trying to like draw all these different connections,
14:50
but the misinformation, Jack, like that's the astonishing thing.
14:54
Like, I wonder if 60 years from now, when somebody's writing, you know, a thriller series about
14:59
this time that we're living through right now, if they're going to be able to even surmise
15:02
which way was up or which way was down?
15:05
Yeah, it's, it's so sad on so many levels.
15:11
But we're still doing it about 1963, about JFK, and the government sure went out of their
15:17
way to look guilty on it, which is so, which is so remarkable to me out of, out of everything
15:24
and of all the possibilities that the government went out of their way to make themselves look
15:29
guilty in this.
15:31
For all of these years, it's just, it's almost unbelievable when it seems like you could
15:37
have cleared this up, especially after Congress passes the law in the early 90s, that says
15:42
you have to you by a certain date, and then you violate that law.
15:46
It's absolutely multiple, multiple administrations.
15:51
It's crazy.
15:52
So, and of course, with what's going to be out there on all the social channels and
15:57
everything else in the wake of any traumatic violent event like this, it's just so hard
16:02
for people to pluck the truth from the fact from the fiction, and it's very, very difficult
16:08
today.
16:09
It's just so sad for this next generation.
16:13
It's going to have to do that.
16:14
You have to put in some work to find the truth there, to find an unbiased report.
16:19
And then you have to have done your own research into the past to give context to an event
16:25
in the present, or what are you doing?
16:28
You're just like just moving forward, you're just clocking it and going on to the next thing.
16:33
You have to have some sort of a baseline, a foundation, in order to give context to events
16:37
in the present, so you can make good decisions going forward.
16:40
You can make wise decisions based on the lessons of the past, because they're out there.
16:45
And then you're right, there's never been a time in human history, I think, where you
16:50
have been so easily, a populace has been able to be manipulated so easily.
16:58
Because the device that does it is with us every single second, let that parts, the parts
17:03
that's truly heartbreaking when we look at all this.
17:07
So I don't know what the answer is going forward.
17:08
I would say, so I do look to the past when I'm thinking about hope.
17:14
And I look at the 1860s, and I see a country that went to war with itself, and with an
17:22
almost unimaginable body count, scars that would, of course, that are still with us today.
17:29
But we managed to come back together after a civil war.
17:34
And then I think, well, what if we'd had iPhones in our pockets back in the 1860s, and we're
17:40
able to manipulate it through those devices?
17:43
I don't know, would we have come back together?
17:47
And that's an answer that I don't have, and we'll never have, but we can take a few
17:51
guesses and maybe what happens in the future will tell us.
17:55
Well, let's get out of the world of tragic and depressing, and let's talk about some
17:58
more fun things, because you're currently in a hotel room in Paris, but you were just
18:03
in Morocco.
18:04
So what in the world are you doing over there?
18:06
Jack, don't hide anything from us.
18:09
Yeah, finished up filming "True Believer."
18:11
So the second season of the TV show over in Morocco, I'll wrap that thing up the other
18:15
night.
18:16
And on my way back, I stopped in Paris for about a week.
18:19
My wife is here with me, so she's at a museum right now, and I'll join her after this.
18:25
But yeah, we just finished up, and it looks awesome.
18:28
So right now we have all the ingredients.
18:30
So now you filmed in-- we're South Africa for a while, we're Toronto for a while, we're
18:34
in Morocco for a while.
18:37
And now we have the ingredients, and so now we'll move into post-production and take
18:41
those ingredients to make the meal, to make the show.
18:44
And so we've got those ingredients, though.
18:46
And if those ingredients are any indication, this is going to be a good one.
18:50
So yeah, just finished up over there in Paris now, but it's looking great.
18:55
Dark Wolf is out right now.
18:56
It's the prequel.
18:57
It's been number one on prime video.
19:00
The terminal list from three years ago is back in the top five at the same time, which
19:04
is crazy.
19:05
You went to number one over Fourth of July weekend before Dark Wolf is out, and now to
19:08
have two shows in the top five with one of those number one is crazy.
19:12
It bodes well for the future, but you never know, things can go off the rails at any given
19:15
point.
19:16
I'm just so grateful to have done what we've done up to this point, but if these numbers
19:20
are any indication with viewership, then, you know, we'll see.
19:24
Maybe there'll be some more spin-offs and some more seasons and all that, but you never
19:28
really know.
19:29
Like I said, in Hollywood, you never really know, so you can't count on anything.
19:32
It's got to be thankful for what you've been able to do up to this point and get to do
19:35
some more stuff than wonderful.
19:37
The whole team's turned into a family over the last few years.
19:40
People told me on set all the time just how different it is from any other set that they've
19:44
worked on in Hollywood, and it really is like a family, and that all comes from Chris Pratt
19:48
Antoine Fuqua, David DiGillio, the show runner, and my buddy Max Adams on there, Army Ranger,
19:53
my buddy Jared Shaw from the SEAL teams.
19:54
He's there every single day.
19:56
Raymond Dosa, who directed Warfare, the movie that came out last year, co-directed that.
20:01
He's there on set.
20:02
Kenny Shear is another buddy of mine from the SEAL teams.
20:04
He's riding on the show, and he's there every day as well, just to make sure we get these
20:08
details right, and everyone's so invested in it.
20:11
From the top on down, they take care of this cast and crew, and it's so cool to see that,
20:16
and have people tell me that because you're filming for seven, eight months, and during
20:20
that timeframe, things are going to happen.
20:23
Life is going to happen.
20:24
Maybe your parents are going to pass away or a parent is going to pass away.
20:27
You might get a divorce.
20:28
You might get married.
20:29
You might have a kid.
20:30
All of these things are going to happen in life over that period of time, and David
20:34
DiGillio, in particular, the show runner, he takes care of everybody, and they recognize
20:39
that.
20:40
We're a really tight family, so it was amazing to finish up in Morocco with everybody the
20:45
other night.
20:46
We just had a great time.
20:47
Yes, stayed up into the early morning hours with Chris talking about the future and what's
20:53
possible moving forward.
20:55
Things are looking great, but once again, you never know where things are going to go.
21:00
Well, Jack, you know the drill.
21:01
No one really cares about all the work you put in.
21:02
They only care when they can see it, and so when does True Believe or come out, what's
21:06
the idea about release date?
21:08
I would guess next summer, but once again, you never really know, but if the past model
21:14
is any indication, I would guess it would come out next summer, but once you have the,
21:19
let's say, the ingredients and you've made the show, and now it goes into, well, when
21:24
you're working on marketing, you're choosing a release date based on what other things
21:28
Amazon Prime has coming out, based on other things that might be out there on other streaming
21:31
services, or a lot goes into a past performance, what their data is saying about when to drop
21:36
these data shows, how that plays in, other things like this time, the NFL was a big one,
21:40
so we paired it with NFL on a Thursday night football for prime for this one, so a lot
21:46
of factors come into play, so you never really know, but I'd guess next summer.
21:49
Hey, guys, real quick.
21:51
You may have noticed a lot of companies out there that are advertising and marketing that
21:54
they're American companies, but guess what, guys, all their manufacturing and all their
21:58
jobs are overseas, right?
22:01
These companies are manufacturing overseas in order to increase their profit margins,
22:05
but they're allowing globalism to put America and Americans behind, and I've been wanting
22:10
to partner with an American company with really all across the board American companies that
22:14
prioritize American workers, their families, and keep their word.
22:18
And guys, I've been working with this company for so long.
22:22
We're going on, I think, four or five years now.
22:24
That's why I want to remind you that we are partnered with Origin.
22:28
Origin is an apparel company based in Maine, and what do they make?
22:31
They make, guys, literally the best jujitsu geese on the planet, and they are the only
22:35
jujitsu geese that are made completely in America with all American products and completely
22:41
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23:36
Okay.
23:37
So I remember going through, because I read the first seven novels of the James, the James
23:42
Reese thrillers.
23:43
And if I look back and reflect on the entire series as like one big narrative, right?
23:48
Because it's technically one big narrative about the character James Reese.
23:51
My favorite thriller is probably Savage Son, but my favorite setting, the setting that
23:58
I liked the most was True Believer.
24:00
I loved the African setting for those types of things.
24:04
And so when I heard you were making the terminalist show in my head, I never thought of spin-offs.
24:09
I never thought of prequels.
24:10
I never thought, oh, they're just going to keep this going.
24:11
I was like, okay, they're just going to make the first book this really nice little mini
24:14
series.
24:15
And then that's going to be it.
24:16
And then when it became apparent that this was going to be not just a thing, but a thing
24:19
thing.
24:20
And then it was going to be True Believer.
24:21
I was like, oh, oh, that was my favorite setting for whatever reason, it just felt so interesting.
24:26
And so do you feel like what you've seen and did they capture the essence of True Believer
24:32
in the filming?
24:33
Oh, yes.
24:34
And that's a big risk for Amazon.
24:35
It was a big risk for my publisher.
24:37
I kind of thought that my publisher and editor would want to take out the first third of True
24:41
Believer.
24:42
Right.
24:43
And I think a lot of editors would.
24:44
I think they would have said, hey, you know what, the first one worked.
24:47
Let's just drop James Reese into this political espionage action type of a thriller here.
24:53
And you know, take care of this journey across the Atlantic and the Mozambique and all that.
24:58
Take care of that with a paragraph and just move on from there because that's what readers
25:02
want type of thing.
25:03
I can 100% see publisher and editor doing that.
25:07
And that wasn't what happened.
25:08
They took a risk with me and allowed me to do that because I thought it would be very
25:13
disingenuous to the reader or listener who would read the first novel to then just pick
25:18
up after those traumatic events in kind of a new similar type of a story dropped internationally.
25:24
Like, I just thought that would be disingenuous and not something that I wanted to do.
25:30
And Simon and Schuster, Emily Besseler, Emily Besseler books, my publisher and editor,
25:34
she was all on board and fully supported.
25:37
And to their credit, Amazon spend the same way because the first two episodes are exactly
25:42
what you just talked about.
25:43
It captures some amazing sequences for this.
25:46
And in the case of the show, now it's a transpacific voyage in the book.
25:49
It's a transatlantic voyage.
25:50
But the same type of thing, learning to live again, type of a journey, a journey of redemption.
25:56
And for me, I wrote my little yellow sticky to help guide the writing process.
26:00
Journey of violent redemption was what I guided that writing process.
26:06
And then in Africa for another episode, and it's beautiful.
26:10
We actually went to South Africa up there in the way to Cape Town and then up North
26:14
and the Lymphopo Province, which is up there closer to Mozambique.
26:17
So you can get that kind of a feel recreated this hunting reserve up there.
26:24
And it looks stunning.
26:26
It is incredible.
26:27
I've seen the first two episodes so far, the first cuts.
26:30
So we're in post-production on those already.
26:32
And then we'll work our way through all eight episodes over the next six months or so.
26:36
But it looks stunning, the visuals on the ocean and in Africa are, I really can't think
26:42
of what's compared to, because essentially we're filming movies, individual movies, on
26:47
a TV timeline, which is a quick timeline to film a movie.
26:52
So everyone's in a full-on sprint.
26:54
But it was a very long way of answering your question and saying that I think you're going
26:58
to really like these first two episodes of "True Believer" when they hit.
27:02
Well, even just thinking through it, okay, considering, and I don't know what's spoiler,
27:07
what's not yet, because terminal list, the book has been out for a long time.
27:10
And so the series is, I guess I'll be, guys, spoiler alert, spoiler alert, but what happens
27:14
at the very end of the terminal list series and the very end of the terminal list book?
27:19
You think we're just going to like, oh, take a flight somewhere and just continue in life.
27:23
You kind of need that journey on the ocean to kind of reset and think about like, what
27:28
did I just do?
27:29
What did I just have to do?
27:31
Who did I have to do it to?
27:32
I mean, it's fairly serious stuff.
27:34
So to just like fast forward because, you know, we've got to make some sort of spy novel
27:38
thing happen, like that doesn't really comport.
27:41
So I'm glad they were allowing you to kind of slow it down.
27:44
But for fans of the terminal list, right, for people that have read the books, they know
27:48
what's coming with "True Believer" and all that, for fans of Chris Pratt that are just
27:52
following Chris Pratt's career, what can they expect with this next installment of the James
27:56
Reese series?
27:58
For "True Believer" or for what comes next?
28:00
For "True Believer," well, we'll get into the next.
28:02
Yeah, I always like to put you on the spot and you never give anything good.
28:05
So we're working up to that, okay?
28:06
Yeah, yeah.
28:07
I mean, the A storyline is kind of so like the main storyline is coming from the book.
28:13
But things happen in real life now that's kind of a gate, a bit of it, meaning Russia
28:18
actually did invade Ukraine.
28:20
And that's something that I wrote about in the book in 2016 when I was writing it and
28:23
then 2019 when it was published.
28:26
So that has to morph, obviously.
28:29
There are changes in the first show from the book that now have to be taken into account
28:33
as you're writing the scenes of the episodes for "True Believer."
28:38
So it's a very creative way, you're solving problems creatively.
28:42
And that's what we did actually on the battlefield in Iraq and Afghanistan, you're solving problems
28:46
creatively and aggressively.
28:48
I'm doing that on the pages of the books, though the consequences are a lot less dire.
28:53
If I mess something up, I can always go back and edit, I can sleep on it, I think you can't
28:57
do in a split second on the battlefield, but there are definitely changes, but we're trying
29:03
to mean what we want to do is always be true to those foundational elements.
29:07
The mindset of a modern day warrior, we want to get the details right when it comes to
29:11
weapon handling and gear selection and all the rest of it, verbiage, we want someone
29:16
to say, hey, Army Special Forces guy would never say something like that or a CIA case
29:19
officer would never say that, that's weird.
29:21
We don't want someone to watch the show that has been in those roles and have them drawn
29:26
out of the story because we get a detail like that wrong.
29:31
So we want to make sure we honor those people, law enforcement, firefighters, doctors, nurses,
29:35
military, special operations, whatever it may be, we want to make sure we get those kind
29:39
of details right.
29:40
So they're not drawn out of the story because we've messed something up that doesn't, it
29:44
doesn't propel the story, but it draws someone out if they've lived that life.
29:50
And so we want someone to crack that beer and put their feet up at the end of the day,
29:53
who's been in those shoes before, watch this and say, you know what, I can tell these guys
29:58
put in the effort to get these things right and man, that's awesome.
30:02
So that's what we're going for and to honor those people who did the work and those people
30:07
who stayed behind and supported them, whether it's spouses and children, law enforcement
30:11
officers will leave the house every day and you never know what's going to happen out
30:15
there or those guys who pick up and go on deployment and leaving a spouse and kids behind
30:19
like we want to honor all of them.
30:21
Absolutely. And I think y'all have done a spectacular job of that. But let's talk a little bit
30:24
about Dark Wolf, as you mentioned, that is out right now on Amazon Prime, a little bit
30:29
different than what I was expecting in terms of, I can't watch the whole thing at once.
30:33
They've been like, you know, releasing a video and then it's got to be next week and next
30:36
week. So it kind of feels like old school television a little bit like you got to go
30:39
a week before you can watch. So I've watched almost every episode. I think it's just the
30:42
final episode that I haven't watched quite yet.
30:44
It came out a few hours ago as we're filming this. So now, don't blink. You might see me
30:48
in the CIA lobby, you don't blink. And then if you go back and watch episode four of the
30:53
tunnel sequence on that one or the much is for those listening, it's like a camera that
30:58
just like moves throughout the whole action of a scene, then you might see me there get
31:02
stitched up against some stuntman pay for taking a fall. So that was pretty cool.
31:05
Okay. All right. Very good. I don't think I noticed that one originally. So I have to
31:09
go back and watch that. But so the interesting thing about this is it's a prequel, right?
31:14
So it's following Ben Edwards, so played by Taylor Kitch played fantastically by Taylor
31:17
Kitch. And then you've got Rafe Hastings played by Tom Hopper. And the thing though is this
31:23
is kind of the flying blind series because there's not a book, right? There's not a thriller
31:27
that goes along with this. And so it's almost like, could you have started a whole new book
31:32
series about Ben Edwards? Yes. But you have a different book series that you're working
31:37
on that we're going to get to here in just a second. So what was the difference in okay,
31:41
with terminal list with Chris Pratt, you've got the source material and then you've got
31:44
okay, this is what'll make it look cool for a movie that's basically shot over seven or
31:50
eight episodes. But how is it different working on dark wolf where you're again, like I said,
31:54
essentially flying blind? Yeah, you don't have to account for an audience that is going to
31:59
take issue with something that's different from the books. So based on characters by,
32:05
and if you've read True Believer, then you know, there's a chapter in there where I talk
32:07
about this something that happened in Iraq, and I don't go to too many details on what
32:12
that was, but it caused a split a rift and between these characters. And so now we get
32:18
to explore that. Okay, what would that have been? How does that propel us into something
32:22
that's different from the terminal list? And so me and David DiGillio, Max Adams, Jared
32:27
Shaw, all got together and started working on this in August of 2022. So about a month
32:33
and a half or so, a month after the show came out in that because it came out July 1st,
32:39
I believe. And so we got together and started working this through. So that was how we started.
32:43
And then we thought, how do we differentiate this from the terminal list? It can't just
32:46
be terminal this light. It has to be its own thing has to stand on its own. Okay, espionage
32:51
thriller, let's bring it out of military thriller space. But let's bring it into an espionage
32:56
thriller and drop it in Europe. Okay, what does that look like? What's going on in the
33:01
world? What can we explore? And then went from there? So visually, it's different thematically
33:08
it's different. And it gets to explore this character Ben Edwards and let's just go back
33:13
and say, Hey, what would have happened to him that would cause him or allow him to make
33:18
the decisions that he makes in the terminal list, both book and TV show? And that's something
33:23
worth exploring. And so Chris pitched it to us. We said, Absolutely, let's do it. Taylor
33:28
was all on board 100% in he loves this character. And off we went to the races. So it's, it's
33:34
cool to be able to do something based on characters, but not tied to a book. So that's that's
33:39
all a freeing in a sense. And we have a great, great premise for the next season. If we get
33:44
one, we'll see if we get one or not. We should with the numbers, everybody's all about it.
33:48
But like I said, never know what's going to happen in Hollywood, but have an awesome premise
33:52
for the next season. Moving forward, I kind of see it as a not kind of I see it as a three
33:56
season type of a thing. I think that'd be get three seasons that'd be a good arc for that
34:01
character to bring him up to the point where now he can do the things that he does in the
34:06
terminal list. And I think for Taylor's schedule, that's probably good to because he's in such
34:10
high demand. He's such an amazing actor can do so many different things. So I think both
34:15
for for him and for the show, the story, the arc, I think a three season type of an arc
34:21
is is manageable and appropriate and allows us to keep the quality super high and improve
34:27
with every single one. So that's important to me as well to always improve. So it's so
34:31
it's fantastic. And my plan was always to do a novelization and for those watching and
34:35
listening, a novelization is a book based on screenplays based on a script. So my plan
34:40
was to have a novelization come out. They were very popular in the 80s and 90s. I have a full
34:45
collection of them at home. I loved reading novelizations back when I was a kid. So so
34:50
I have all those I wanted to do that. I want to bring them back. And I had my plan was to
34:54
do that. But then cry havoc took so much longer than I thought writing every sentence through
35:00
the lens of 1968 for this book took so much longer than I thought I didn't get a novelization.
35:06
So I do have a plan for the future for novelizations of these things. But you know, we'll see, I
35:11
got to get a little more efficient with my time and my planning. But that's in the works.
35:17
That's in the works.
35:18
Well, you actually answered my next few questions about, okay, so is this just like a one off
35:22
for Taylor Kitch, like doing the Ben Edwards thing. Okay, let's give that character a little
35:26
bit more play. But it does make sense to give him, you know, several season arc to get to
35:31
the point of the terminal list. It even specifically for there's so there's so much possibility
35:37
here. So even just with Tom Hopper, the Hastings story is incredibly interesting. And so I
35:42
know you've already got this on your whiteboard at home. But you're dealing with Tom Reese
35:47
and we're going to get to him here in a second. But then you you've got an entire thriller
35:50
series just waiting on you just about the Hastings, right in Rhodesia and the different
35:54
conflicts and all the different things there. And then you got Tom Hopper that did such
35:58
a spectacular job playing Rafe. But then I keep hearing about Tom Hopper. I don't know
36:03
if this is like a real thing, but it's like, tell me that's not James Bond, right? And
36:06
so is he going to get is he going to get picked up? Then you like yanked over to that series
36:11
or something like that. And so it's like, Hey, can you be Rafe Hastings and also be James
36:14
Bond? So just talk to me about really just the overall potential of what you're seeing
36:20
in kind of the terminal is universe in terms of the different directions you can go.
36:24
Yeah, there's a lot of options. And I did that very intentionally at the outset from
36:28
the first book onward was to plant seeds with characters and lineages that would be interesting
36:34
to explore in their own right. So I did that from the very beginning. I didn't want to
36:37
get to book 10 and say, you know what I should do? I need to give my character a rest. Maybe
36:42
I'll give him a dad who was a seal in Vietnam. Yeah. Yeah. I want to see that along the way
36:46
from the very beginning so that people would want those things. And then if I can get to
36:52
them and do them or when it makes sense when it's appropriate, I can dive in and do those
36:56
stories both on the Reese side of the house and on the Hastings side of the house. Very
37:00
intentionally gave them fathers and grandfathers who had interesting stories that I that I kind
37:05
that I just I mentioned in as a way to inform the character in present day, meaning a Rafe
37:12
Hastings and a Reese and a James Reese to inform their character. Why are they the way
37:17
they are? Well, they have this family lineage also that plays into this. And so that was
37:23
very important to me from the very beginning. So now with the shows, spin offs are a distinct
37:28
possibility. And there's some others out there that you haven't mentioned that are that are
37:33
on the on the list, but we shall see we shall see you never you never know you got to go
37:38
an appropriate pace. You can't lose quality. We have such an amazing team. It's very difficult
37:42
to to replicate. You'll never replicate, but you need to bring people into the fold. They
37:47
can then go out and you can have multiple shows filming at any given time. But you have to
37:52
do it in a way that is not going to have a drop off in quality, because once you do,
37:56
then it's over. Then you lose your audience and then you lose the opportunity to just
37:59
keep doing these things. So you have to go in an appropriate pace and be able to maintain
38:04
that quality for those people who are spending time with you that they're never going to
38:07
get back as they watch the shows or they read read the book. So there's a there's a there's
38:11
a lot of potential I would say, but you know, once again, things can go off the rails at
38:14
any time.
38:15
But Jack, that's a sentiment that I remember back the first time you came on the show,
38:20
which I think it was after Savish and I can't remember which book we were talking about.
38:24
But the first time you came on the show, you basically said that exact same thing. And
38:27
I think most content creators, whether you're a podcaster or a novelist or you're a showrunner
38:32
or something like that, they don't. A lot of people seemingly don't think about the time
38:35
that is being invested in this product. And so if you invest two hours in a movie and you
38:39
get to the end and you're disappointed, it's like you just can't get that time back. If
38:43
you listen to an hour long podcast of mine and you're like, well, that was terrible.
38:46
Well, I can't give you that time back. And so like it's incumbent upon me to develop in
38:50
that way.
38:51
So I do want to get to cry habit, but I kind of had one last question. I'm just wondering
38:54
for you and for the discussions that you've had with Chris Pratt, kind of on that same
38:58
thing, the James Reese thriller series currently sits at seven novels, right? Seven thrillers
39:06
is the the idea that we're going to make each one of those books a season of this terminal
39:11
is show. And then that's just going to be where it wraps up. Is there at some point,
39:18
you know, after thriller four or five, is it going to diverge off into a different area?
39:22
Because again, I don't want to ruin anything for anybody that hasn't read to the end of
39:26
the seventh thriller. So there's some ambiguity in the James re story, I guess I can put it
39:30
that way. But what's what's the idea about the future? And again, I know numbers and
39:34
how things go, but creatively speaking right now, do you see it following the trajectory
39:39
of the series that you've put out there? Or is it going to diverge off fairly heavily?
39:44
I see it following right now. Anyway, of course, this can change tomorrow in another discussion.
39:49
But up to this point, the discussions have focused around doing the books in the correct
39:54
order in sequence, because the they do inform the next book, the events of one inform the
39:59
next one, and then develop the character as well. So I would think that we'd continue
40:04
along that route. But once again, you do you never 100% know? But I would think so. But
40:09
the option is to think about doing some of his films as features, rather than as a series,
40:16
like what does that look like for for Chris's schedule? What does that look like for a for
40:20
a studio? Because of course that that landscape is morphing faster than than than entertainment
40:28
has morphed into quite some time. So so we're not to keep pace with that, stay in tune with
40:33
that, and adapt to that. So I wouldn't be surprised if we do do a film, but also wouldn't
40:40
be surprised if we just say, hey, no, let's do a, let's do a series of television, but
40:47
make it four episodes, or a seven or eight. But but I think there might be a feature in
40:51
there. And then what do they all go from features then on, I don't know, probably look at the
40:55
number once you got to stay stay adaptable and always be on always learn. So so we'll
41:01
see. But that's kind of the trajectory that we're on right now.
41:04
All right, very good. Well, let's get we've talked about it. We've teed it up enough. We
41:08
need to get to the newest earlier, which guys did it is out now. And I mean, Jack, every
41:12
time I get one of these in the mail and I posted on Instagram, the number of people that are
41:15
super jealous that I got the hard back before everybody else is substantial. But what the
41:19
other reason they're jealous, they didn't get to look at this handsome devil. That's
41:21
on the back. Look at that headshot. I married, I married to professional headshot photographer,
41:26
but that it is a nice headshot, Jack. Look at that amazing. That's my buddy, Mike Stone
41:31
or that in, in, he's an incredible guy, amazing photographer. Yeah, stoner photo. And actually,
41:38
I mentioned him in the book, his, his father was a, a lifeguard. And, and in the surf culture
41:46
back in the, in the 50s and 60s. And I incorporate that into a chapter in the book. I knew I
41:51
wanted to try to capture the some of the insanity of, of Vietnam. And one way to do that was
42:00
to put these guys on R and R in China beach. And so I incorporated some real people into
42:06
that chapter. And Rick Stoner, Mike Stoner's dad was, was one of those guys. So I incorporated
42:13
him in there and his, one of the surfboards in there and, and, and added Tom Reese is
42:18
a, as a college student at UCSB going down to Southern California and learning how to
42:23
shape surfboards from some of the masters of the day. And then going back to UCSB and
42:27
shaping them in his dorm room. And, and so it's, it all plays into the story and, and
42:32
the character. So that was, that was a treat. Well, I remember the character. Well, I can
42:37
remember the setting as I was listening to it. Cause again, I, I, I struggle with, with
42:42
reading fiction. And so Ray Porter helps me make sure that I can stay up on everything.
42:47
And so, but this is the first thriller in the Tom Reese series. This is James Reese's
42:52
father. And so just generically, let's describe the setting. Let's get an overview of what
42:57
readers can expect with cry habit. Yeah. I wanted to introduce Tom Reese in a way that
43:02
would be impactful. So I, I kicked this thing off with a, with a prologue, trying to make
43:07
it make the reader or the listener experience through Tom Reese's eyes, what it would be
43:12
like to be across the border in Laos, uh, on the jungle floor, sweating in this dusk environment
43:19
beneath the triple canopy, uh, with mosquitoes, bugs, leeches, and with an enemy approaching
43:25
that's tracking them. Um, and what would that feel like? So I really wanted to immerse the
43:30
reader in that from the get go. And so that kicks things off of the prologue. And, uh,
43:34
and then into a first chapter with January 1968 and the capture of the USS Pueblo, um,
43:39
which happened off North Korea and was a, was a, uh, a huge event in 1968. But for this
43:45
story, what is important about that is that the most technologically advanced encryption
43:50
devices of the day were on that boat and that ship and were not destroyed. And so I thought,
43:58
well, what, what would that mean if the North Koreans gave it to the Soviets? Would they
44:03
be able to now decrypt some of our communications? And the answer is, no, unless they have a
44:11
keycard that allows them to do that, which changed frequently. Okay. Well, what if they
44:16
had that? Uh, what if they had somebody that was a, uh, a mole inside the CIA or the NSA
44:23
and later on, we're going to find out about the Walker spy ring, of course, that are busted
44:26
in the eighties that, uh, spy for decades, um, essentially, uh, and what did that, what
44:33
would that, what would that do? Could that compromise MacVee saga operations in, to
44:37
Laos in the Cambodian, North Vietnam, but in this story focused on Laos. Um, and what
44:42
if there was an enterprising GRU operative who thought about, well, instead of just killing
44:47
these guys when they come across the border, what if we grabbed a few of them and, uh, and
44:52
exploited them for intelligence, not in Laos, but in the Soviet Union. So, uh, that kicks
44:57
things off and drops Tom Reese into really an espionage thriller in the heart of Saigon
45:01
and at the height of the Vietnam war, meaning the bloodiest year of the war, which was 1968.
45:07
And I didn't want to just play some Korean's Clearwater Revival and say it's 1968 and call
45:11
it a day. I wanted to write every single sentence through the lens of 1968, which means I wouldn't
45:16
have 50 plus years of hindsight to apply to a character's perspective on a certain, uh,
45:21
event or decision. So I have characters from a French doctor who was in World War II in
45:27
Paris, who ends up in eventually in Saigon working for a foreign intelligence service.
45:31
Well, uh, his perspective on what he's doing, why he's doing it can only be informed by
45:36
his life experience up to 1968. So what was that? And so I have to go into that or what
45:40
about a 70 some year old, uh, GRU director? What would his life experience be? What would
45:45
he be bringing to these decisions? Uh, what about a younger one? What about a major, maybe
45:49
missed World War II? Um, and it is more, uh, what would he be like or a Spetsnoss operative
45:53
who's who's enlisted and is, uh, a bit of a psycho essentially. What would he, what would
45:58
his life experience be like? And then Tomries, what would his life experience be like? And
46:01
what would he be bringing to the decisions of, uh, of present day of Vietnam, 1968?
46:06
So it, uh, it ended up taking a lot longer than I thought. And it's almost historical
46:10
fiction, uh, because I have some real people that I weave in as characters and try to be
46:14
as true to their real characters as possible, reading their autobiographies, reading about
46:18
them. And, uh, so those are woven in as well, which is, uh, to kind of set the stage. I
46:22
wanted to capture the feel of 1968 for people who lived through it. And then I wanted to
46:26
capture what it was like to go across the border as a MacVie Sogg operative to honor
46:31
those guys and really to honor everyone who, uh, served in Vietnam. And, uh, that ended
46:35
up being a, uh, much more monumental task than I missed initially, uh, anticipated, which
46:40
is why the book's coming out in October and not in June. Yeah. Well, I mean, the, the
46:46
amount of stuff that was happening in the book, I could see how it would take that, that
46:49
length of time. But even in the dedication, you talk about MacVie Sogg and then you talk
46:53
about, you know, the P.O.W.s, the KIAs over there in Vietnam, but then you also gave a
46:59
little O to David Morel. And so I talk a little bit about, about that in terms of like kind
47:03
of going into this area because yeah, you're right. You could have just put on some CCR
47:07
and just like put your way in there, but there's obviously a connection with a lot of other
47:11
different areas, but you know, still curious, you know, why, why you gave, uh, the, the thumbs
47:15
up to David Morel as well. Yeah, I dedicate this book to, to him, uh, into those who served
47:20
in, in Southeast Asia, but, uh, David Morel is such an influence, uh, influential author
47:25
to me growing up, uh, found him through Rambo, first blood part two in the summer of 1985,
47:31
the summer of Rambo read the novelization of that by David Morel went back and watched
47:36
first blood, watched, uh, read the book, noted the differences between the book and the film,
47:40
which were stark, but both amazing, uh, then got into brotherhood of the Rose fraternity,
47:45
the Stone, League of Night and Fog by David Morel, incredible espionage thriller. So that
47:49
blended kind of the, the best of, of, uh, UK and US five fiction at the time. So like
47:54
her a and a Ludlem, kind of morph those two together to create something new that moves
47:58
the genre forward and, uh, read everything by David Morel. Now I have every, all first
48:02
edition signed by him. We've become friends over the years and he's kicking off the book
48:06
tour with me in Scottsdale, Arizona on October 5th on a Sunday and, uh, to do that together,
48:11
he's going to sign first blood. I'm going to sign cry havoc. We'll do pictures together.
48:14
There'll be a professional photographer there. We'll do a conversation that will answer questions
48:18
from the audience and it's going to be really special, such an honor for me that he is doing
48:22
that. So, um, so yeah, dedicated the, the, the book to him because not just as an author,
48:27
as he'd been influential to me, but now as a, as a human being, uh, he has as well. So
48:31
just an incredible guy. Well, let's also talk about the challenge of writing a thriller
48:39
in a war setting that you didn't fight in because if you look at the James Reese series, obviously,
48:45
like you were at least tangentially involved with a lot of the things and a lot of the
48:48
different settings that were a part of that series. Of course, you know, you, you took
48:52
some fantastical liberties and, and some creativity, but this was all kind of centered around
48:57
the time period that was, you know, loosely, I guess, described as the GWOT, right? But
49:01
this is Vietnam. This is not an era where you grew up in. This is not an era where you
49:04
fought in those types of things. So as a writer that loves to get the details right, because
49:10
that was something people were critical about all the detail you would put into the different,
49:14
you know, uh, different firearms or the different loadouts or all that with the other series.
49:18
But most, that's what most people loved about it is because it made it even more authentic,
49:21
right? But gosh, going back to Vietnam, that had to have been kind of stressful for you.
49:26
I would think to try to get every little nook and crandy detail perfect because if a guy
49:31
from that era read it, it'd be like, oh, this guy didn't do his research, even if it was
49:34
just maybe like a small detail. So, so describe the difference in writing for those two different
49:39
time periods.
49:40
Yeah. Well, first time I don't write for an audience, meaning, I know a lot of authors
49:45
do and that's fine. And it's just not what I do. I write, I serve the story. And if I
49:49
serve the story and put my heart and soul into every single word, then I think it honors
49:54
that audience, that, that readership, uh, that listenership that is spending that time with
49:59
me, they're never going to get back. So I never think I was just going to alienate somebody.
50:03
Is this too much detail for somebody? Is this, maybe I should tread the line here so I don't
50:07
alienate this person and they don't say they hate it. Whatever. Never, ever, ever do I do
50:12
that. Um, and that's just not my way. So it's going to be the story. The story 100% will
50:17
come first. And that in that way, then I'm honoring the reader. I'm not trying to say,
50:21
well, it's popular right now. What's, what's the headline I can grab? What's, uh, you know,
50:25
zero, never. Um, so for me, I'm a gear guy. That means that gear is going in and it's going
50:29
to inform the characters. And in this case, it's gear from the 60s. And a lot of the gear
50:33
from the 60s was actually World War two gear a gear for these guys. Um, VR, uh, pouches
50:39
for their, uh, magazines and things like that. So I went deep into detail reading everything
50:43
I could find on MacVee Sogg, reading every book autobiography for MacVee Sogg operators,
50:48
uh, having a lot of them on my podcast and then talking to a lot of them offline via email
50:52
text and phone calls just to say, Hey, is this right? And are you said this on the podcast
50:56
or this in the book? But now that I'm in the story, I'm saying this, does that sound right
50:59
to you? Uh, like that sort of a thing to make sure that I, that I'm honored their service
51:03
by getting those details. Right. So, um, so a lot of, yeah, so much went into that. It
51:08
took so much time, but, uh, but I absolutely love doing that sort of thing. It's just my,
51:12
just my way. Um, and so that's a huge, a huge part of the story, trying to get that right
51:17
for, for 1968 and especially we're looking at even things like let's say a street name.
51:22
Um, well, guess what? 1975, a lot of those street names changed when, uh, when Saigon
51:26
fell. So in a contemporary thriller, I'm just looking up like Sam here in Paris and I want
51:31
to have a chase scene through the streets right here. I can just look up Google maps and I
51:35
can zoom in and I can see the name of the roundabout and be like, Oh, there's this, uh, museum
51:39
here, this restaurant here. Oh, awesome. The car plows through this, whatever, contemporary,
51:43
very easy to do right now, real time. But if I do that in Saigon, 1968, I have to say,
51:49
all right, was that street there, uh, in 1968, was it made of dirt back then or was the road
51:57
made out of some sort of asphalt and then the sidewalks were dirt or vice versa. Um, where
52:02
those, what was the, what kind of shops were on that street in 1968, not today. Um, so
52:07
you have to go back, look at photos, vehicles, uh, cars, horse drawn carriages and you're describing
52:12
them from 1968. So that took a lot more time, uh, especially when you expand it over a hundred
52:19
and forty thousand words, which is what this story is. So that's, and for those listening
52:24
or watching, that's all, that's a long book. Yeah, it's a long book, but yeah, I mean,
52:28
you need that for the detail and for the arc of the story. And so for the arc of the Tom
52:32
Reese story, you know, for the James Reese thriller series, it was kind of left as of
52:36
right now at seven, uh, what, how many thrillers do you think we'll see in the Tom Reese series,
52:41
at least as far as you can view it right now? Well, my goal was to write another one and,
52:46
uh, then maybe another and another, but this took so much time. It took so much out of
52:50
me to do this. Um, stopped working out January 1st when I realized how late I was. Um, so
52:56
stopped sleeping, stopped. I mean, I slept a little bit, but not, you know, not a hell,
53:00
not a healthy amount. Um, uh, nutrition, everything just, I completely dropped everything like
53:07
that to the off my list in order to devote time to this book. Um, so after this experience,
53:13
I might take a little breather, go back to contemporary, go back to, uh, said James Reese
53:18
and keep that one going for a few more and then go back to this. I think I need a few
53:21
year break before I go into these more historically oriented thrillers. Um, and, uh, it, it's
53:28
just how it, that's, that's how it's gotta be. Uh, because just from a, from a time management
53:32
perspective, there's just not enough time. I mean, like I said, I could just throw in
53:35
screenings, Colorado Revival on essentially wrote a contemporary thriller called it 1968
53:40
and had it take the same amount of time as a, as a James Reese novel, but, uh, I wouldn't
53:44
feel right about that. And, uh, I don't think I could even, I said I could do that, but I
53:48
mean, one could, but I couldn't, if that makes sense. So, uh, so that's a lot of time. So
53:53
I think it's going to be a year or two until I get back to Tom Reese and continue his journey
53:57
and we'll, we'll see, but, uh, but James Reese is definitely back up. And now it's a creative
54:02
way to figure out how to draw him back into the fold after how I left him off at the red
54:07
sky morning into my seventh novel. Uh, and, uh, and so I have some, some creative ideas.
54:12
The outline is, uh, in the works and, uh, as soon as I get back from book tour, I will
54:16
turn that outline into the narrative. Okay. That was going to be my next and last question
54:21
of the day, which is kind of what are we working on immediately next, but we'll wrap up with
54:24
this. So if that's immediately next, what are the, the people that loved, uh, your non-fiction
54:31
book about Beirut and the, the barracks bombings that happened there over in Lebanon, uh,
54:36
is there any timeline for you getting back into the world of nonfiction? Because again,
54:42
you talk about the amount of effort put into something like that one, like, cause if you
54:46
make a mistake, like, you know, that's historical ish in nature and cry havoc, it's forgivable.
54:51
But when you're writing technically a history book, ah, like there, there's just a different
54:55
standard, like we can't put things in there that are inaccurate. There's no like easy
54:59
mea copa, you know what I mean? And so, uh, what is, what's kind of next for better people
55:03
that are fans of your nonfiction? Yeah, we're working on that right now. And, uh, next nonfiction
55:09
book hasn't been announced yet, but I will go right from book tour into a research trip
55:13
for that next one. So I would expect maybe it'll come out in 2026, but I would guess 2027.
55:19
Um, not sure how long this research is going to take, but, um, yeah, next one is in, in
55:24
the works. So, uh, and you're right. If I make a mistake and one of the thrillers, I
55:29
can just say, ah, it's fiction. Uh, if I make a mistake in nonfiction, then you lose all
55:36
credibility with that account. So it's tough. That's why I work with James M Scott, incredible
55:40
author has five other books out there, four of them on, uh, on World War two that are
55:44
just amazing. And, uh, that's why I picked him. And thank goodness he said, yes, when
55:48
I asked him if he wanted to, to work on these with me. And he's an incredible guy, amazing
55:53
writer, such a talented researcher. And I learned so much about research from him, how
55:58
to correctly and legally annotate things in a work of nonfiction. That's not pop history,
56:03
if you know what I mean. Um, yeah, you can do a pop history book. And I could have just
56:06
said, I'll do targeted Beirut. I'll read a bunch of books on the Middle East and, and
56:09
Beirut, 1983. And then I'll put my perspective and get this thing out there and just put my
56:13
name on it. And, uh, but that's not what I wanted to do. I want to try a real work of
56:18
history with a real historian. Um, so I could learn from them at the same time and have
56:22
a book that people could point to for decades going forward is, hey, this is the seminal
56:27
work on Beirut, 1983. If you're doing research or interested in that timeframe, read targeted
56:32
Beirut. And, uh, so in order to do that, uh, I needed to have somebody like James Scott,
56:38
who was just so amazing Pulitzer prize finalist. Um, and then we did it right. So I'm extremely
56:43
proud of that. And really wanted to humanize that event as well. So you're not just reading
56:47
about stats. And, uh, this happened then, which led to this, which led to this. And here's
56:51
the body counts and then this is the aftermath. And I wanted to humanize this event through
56:56
the eyes of people who were there, through the, the eyes of people who were digging for
57:00
their buddies through the rubble with their bare hands with a K bar knife with a crowbar
57:03
or a shovel if they could find it, um, through the eyes of two dentists that step up in the
57:07
aftermath, they think they're there to do root canals. And now they are the senior ranking
57:11
officers on site to triage this to, uh, in the aftermath of this event, uh, saving so
57:17
many lives in the process through helicopter pilot, he's flying in to get people out of
57:21
there and out to a ship from the next level of medical care. Um, and, uh, and through
57:26
the eyes of a doctor who didn't make it through, who was, who was, uh, kind of like, um, like
57:32
a character from mash, essentially. And so humanize it through him and through his, uh,
57:37
through his widow who I got to know, or we got to know through this, this research, um,
57:41
and his son, uh, as well. So it's, it's, uh, so emotional and that book tour was extremely
57:47
emotional, um, meeting the family members again, in many cases of, uh, people we'd interviewed
57:52
before, but now they're, they're reading the finished product and they're on book tour,
57:55
uh, and they're coming up and giving us these hugs and people are showing us, you know,
57:59
pictures of their loved ones who didn't make it through and we're taking photos and giving
58:03
hugs and all the rest of it. It was just an extremely emotional book tour. And, uh, I
58:07
would suspect this next one on one, uh, when we announce the topic is going to be, uh,
58:12
it's going to be extremely emotional as well. All right. Well, we can all look forward to
58:16
that. But Jack, I mean, we've, we punch your sixth, uh, spot in your card. We got to start
58:21
a new one and obviously that'll probably happen next year, but as of this time together, that
58:26
is all for me. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest? Oh man, I just
58:29
appreciate you having me on. I'm so thankful to people who, uh, take a risk on me and read
58:35
the book or tell a friend about it or post about it or listen to it. And it's, uh, the,
58:40
the groundswell of support and really from the beginning, this thing being a grassroots
58:45
type of a thing. Cause I wasn't on, that wasn't on Rogan out of the gate. I wasn't on any
58:49
big new shows. Uh, Chris Pratt didn't mention that this, we said been optioned until after
58:54
the third book at the New York Times list. And then the first two jumped on after that
58:58
and they've all been on ever since. But, um, really it is that grassroots, uh, early on
59:04
support from people who took a risk on me, read the book, listened to it, told their one
59:08
friend who then posted to their five followers who then told somebody at work or around the
59:12
dinner table and it just grew from there very naturally, very organically. And I can really
59:18
never, uh, thank everyone enough for, uh, for that support from the very beginning. So
59:22
it's sincerely appreciated. All right, Jack, thanks again for coming on. Yeah, man. Thanks
59:26
so much. Take care. There you go. Guys. I hope you enjoyed the return appearance of Jack
59:30
car on the show, but before we let you go, we are going to do a quick resilience boost
59:33
out onto life. Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with the content that
59:36
for just spiritual, mental physical resilience. A couple of links for you today. I've got a
59:39
link to Jack's website. So you can go check out all of his books, his book tour, all of
59:43
his March. He's got out there. It's fantastic. And also linked to where you can buy the latest
59:47
novel, the latest thriller cry havoc. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Wherever
59:51
you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate and leave us a positive five star review.
59:55
If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an
59:58
email to info at undaunted.life. That's I N F O at undaunted.life. Follow us on Instagram
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1:00:12
And as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing us to use their music for
1:00:15
our content. The music on this podcast is our song Perpetua, which is off their self titled
1:00:19
debut album on face down records. The links are in the description. I'm your host, Kyle
1:00:24
Thompson. Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental and physical
1:00:30
resilience. Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:01:00
of Judah. And as always, I'm your host, Kyle. I'm your host, Kyle. I'm your host,