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This is Undaunted Life, a man's podcast.
0:54
I'm your host Kyle Thompson, let's get into it.
0:57
All right, guys, we've got a special guest on the podcast today.
0:59
His name is Jack Barsky, so Jack is a former sleeper agent for the KGB.
1:03
Yeah, seriously, he's also an author, a Christian speaker, and an IT specialist.
1:08
He actually spied on the United States from 1978 to 1988 at the behest of the Soviet Union.
1:14
After the Cold War, Barsky became a U.S. counterintelligence agent, or a counterintelligence
1:19
agent.
1:20
There you go.
1:21
And he's also the author of his autobiography, Deep Undercover.
1:23
So I really, really enjoyed this interview today.
1:24
We didn't cover a lot of different questions, but we went deep in a lot of different areas.
1:28
So we talked about what it was like growing up in old East Germany, what it was like growing
1:32
up in this kind of cultural milieu of atheism, but also communism and the tenets of communism
1:38
being forced down your throat, even at an early age like kindergarten.
1:41
But then we talked about how, starting in the late '60s, he was approached by what he
1:45
thought was a member of the Stasi, the German intelligence agency, but it ended up being
1:49
a KGB agent, and where that led to him being observed and then recruited to go into the
1:54
KGB, deciding to join the KGB and then being placed in the United States as a sleeper agent,
1:59
and kind of, you know, what does a sleeper agent do in the United States on a day-to-day
2:03
basis?
2:04
So we talk a lot about that, but then we talk about how at some point they thought his cover
2:07
had been blown and how that led to him leaving the KGB and how he kind of defected, got out
2:13
of the world of espionage and ended up serving the United States government.
2:16
But at the end, we spent quite a bit of time talking about how he became a Christian and
2:20
how growing up in Germany, like there weren't churches that people went to, there weren't
2:24
theological discussions or weren't even really Bibles around.
2:27
So how do you go from that to decades later after being a spy and doing all these crimes
2:31
and hurting people and doing all that to becoming a Christ follower?
2:34
So I really enjoyed his story.
2:35
And then at the end, we talk about how parents can help keep their children from being romanced
2:40
by some of the more overt tenants of communism.
2:44
So we talk about all that.
2:45
I really, really enjoyed my time with Jack.
2:47
So without further ado, let's get into it.
2:50
Jack Barsky, welcome to Undaunted Life of Man's podcast.
2:53
Yeah.
2:54
Delighted to be there based on what you told me what I can expect.
3:00
Yeah.
3:01
I think we're going to have a good time.
3:02
I think we're going to hit a lot of the high points about you, your life and some of the
3:06
things that you're doing to help warn some people in modernity about some of the ideas
3:11
that they're being romanced by.
3:12
But we need to set the foundation a little bit here beforehand, Jack, because I'm not
3:16
sure that I've ever talked to somebody who grew up in the old East Germany.
3:20
So let's start there.
3:21
Let's start with your childhood.
3:22
Let's start with what it was like growing up there.
3:24
Yeah.
3:25
Well, born in 1949, which was four years after the end of World War II in one of the poorest
3:33
sections of Germany, which was at the time when I was born, it was occupied by Soviet
3:38
troops.
3:39
So grew up in poverty, not the kind of poverty where you go hungry every day, but there wasn't
3:50
the whole lot going on.
3:52
Medical services, almost nonexistent, the village I grew up in had one doctor, and there wasn't
3:59
a lot of medication to deal with the cold and strep throat and stuff like that.
4:06
Nutrition was just not really sufficient.
4:09
I can't remember ever having gone hungry, but it wasn't really healthy.
4:16
But we ate a lot of potatoes.
4:19
I was lucky to have grown up in the country rather than in a city, because most big cities
4:26
in Germany were bombed out and people didn't even have a roof over the head.
4:33
My parents were both teachers.
4:34
So I lived through puberty in really nice buildings, apartments attached to school buildings.
4:48
So that was okay.
4:49
But again, poor Christmas, there may have been one present that I liked and everything else
4:56
was stuff that I needed, but we were not unhappy.
5:01
We were just, everybody else was poor too, so we made the best of it.
5:05
We played outside.
5:06
We made our own toys, cardboard boxes and sticks that we took from trees and so on.
5:14
So it was not an unhappy childhood, but an hindsight.
5:21
What I provided for my children here is a lot nicer, that's for sure.
5:27
Well, it's kind of one of those things that's like, you don't know what you don't know.
5:31
And I know a lot of people that have done missionary work, they go over to these other
5:34
countries and they see these people that don't have a lot of stuff that seem to be very,
5:38
very content and so much a common through point that I hear in a lot of these conversations.
5:42
And so, but today we're not talking about the indulgence of American capitalists.
5:47
Let's go back to talk a little bit, because you mentioned your parents.
5:50
As far as I understand it, your father was a Marxist and a supporter of Lenin.
5:55
And so that's fairly unique for you in terms of your upbringing.
5:59
Is that correct?
6:00
Allow me to correct this a little bit.
6:02
He was a party member, but he joined because it was necessary for his career.
6:12
He got to really, even he was also teaching classes that I was in in middle school.
6:20
And he told the party line, but at home, there was never any kind of ideological discussions,
6:27
any kind of brainwashing going on.
6:30
He even at one point considered putting up an antenna for us to be able to receive West
6:39
German television.
6:40
I remember that.
6:41
And then he said, "Now we can't do this because the antenna is so big that everybody would
6:45
know that what we are up to."
6:48
So he was just a utilitarian, so to speak.
6:53
And the brainwashing that I received did not happen at home.
6:58
It happened in school and in all kinds of organizations where children and young adults could participate.
7:05
And, of course, in the media, big time.
7:08
Okay.
7:09
Well, let's talk a little bit about that brainwashing because I'm always curious about, because
7:13
we all take lessons from our childhood.
7:15
Some is caught, some is taught.
7:17
And so let's talk about kind of that milieu that you were you were living in as it pertained
7:21
to some of these ideologies that you ended up following as you engaged.
7:25
It started with kindergarten.
7:28
And this was a very systematic attempt to inject communist ideology into our young brains.
7:39
And you may well understand that communism, the whole idea of communism, is something
7:45
that is so easy to fall for.
7:49
It's about, you know, freeing or getting rid of all evil in the world.
7:53
Can't we all get along, get rid of oppression, you know, just live in a paradise on earth.
8:00
And so that's how it started in kindergarten, okay?
8:07
Little children, like five, six years old, we had these little fairy tales.
8:14
We had comic books, and it was all about just, you know, nice things that the human race
8:23
is all.
8:24
There's nothing but good people.
8:25
And there's a small set of very rich oppressors that need to, we need to get rid of.
8:32
Very gentle, that included songs and you know, just it was just part of our life.
8:39
So we, going into elementary school, I was already a little communist.
8:45
And then at elementary school, there was this organization that was called the Young Pioneers.
8:51
And if you didn't join the young pioneers, your parents would be, would we talk to?
8:57
So young pioneers that now in addition to school, there were activities where we were,
9:04
you know, do things to collect, for instance, nuts, to collect, you know, German word comes
9:17
in as blocks of English sometimes, collect medals, you know, rusty old stuff that could
9:29
be reused and stuff like that.
9:32
And just to be helpful and be, you know, be useful.
9:36
And again, songs, at that point it wasn't television, but it was radio.
9:43
There was some radio programs for children.
9:45
And it was about a robot, obviously the robot didn't exist, who was running around in the
9:52
world doing good deeds.
9:55
And then it got a little more hardcore, particularly as we got into high school.
10:03
At that point in high school, we were taught, you know, Marxist ideology as a subject.
10:11
And when you just go forward in college, we even had a course, and I studied chemistry,
10:16
art science, but we had a course that was called scientific Marxism-Leninism.
10:27
And at that point I was ready to believe anything, and believe that there was a science to what
10:33
Marx had one of course discovered, which is the law of the evolution of mankind and
10:41
that would end in a worker's paradise, but we had to do our part to get there.
10:50
So, you know, I understand why Marxism and communism, most likely, will never lose its
11:04
attractiveness because it's such a romantic notion, and what it does, it defies the fact
11:15
of the human existence that we all have to see of evil in us.
11:20
And some of us, many of us have learned how to manage it, but when you look at history,
11:28
and I am an amateur student of history, when you look at history, the history of man is
11:36
nothing but man killing other men, women.
11:41
It's nothing but warfare throughout history, and if the world were to end, this would be
11:48
in a nuclear conflict, and that's something I'm concerned about right now, but we don't
11:55
know, there's no way to speculate, you know, even Jesus didn't know when the father will
12:06
make the world come to an end as the world as we know it, so I can't join the folks that
12:11
say, "Well, it's just around the corner," because they said this in biblical times and
12:15
we're still here, so we have a responsibility to do what we can do to live our life, the
12:25
way Jesus showed us how it should be lived.
12:32
I would certainly echo that, and Jack, I'm curious, as you're growing up, I really appreciate
12:36
you talking about what it was like in elementary school, and then as you get into high school
12:39
and college and kind of how it really got more and more serious.
12:43
Did you ever remember a time period or a particular class or teacher or group that maybe presented
12:49
a counter ideal, because obviously if you look at the true tenets of Christianity, they don't
12:54
jive with communism, Leninism, Marxism, socialism, it doesn't really jive at all.
12:59
There are people that will make the argument where they will basically take pieces of Christianity
13:03
without the context and apply it to something that fits their worldview, but do you remember
13:08
anybody kind of giving you an alternate way of thinking, or was it simply, "This is the
13:13
way that you're going to be brought up, and here's how you're going to be urinated"?
13:17
Let me tell you something, this may sound odd, but it's the truth.
13:22
The one example where a teacher was a bit of a contrarian was our music teacher.
13:32
He was retired from being a conductor of symphony orchestra, and one time we listened to Western
13:41
radio because that's when the Beatles were coming out, the Rolling Stones, and in this
13:46
great, great music that we all liked, but it was forbidden.
13:50
One time a friend of mine and I went to the music teacher and asked him what he thought
13:57
of the Beatles, and he said, "They're really good."
14:05
That was an extreme notion, other than that, anybody who voiced a contrarian opinion, and
14:14
that could have been students, particularly in college, was immediately isolated.
14:21
Typically, those were not the better students because we all have learned how to play our
14:28
part in the collective.
14:30
It was all about the collective, no matter where we were, and contrary opinion, no God.
14:42
I had no idea that there was a God.
14:46
It was so dumb to think that the universe, we studied physics chemistry, that the universe
14:53
came into being out of nothing and then organized itself into the complexity that we have today.
15:03
Which is contrary to the third law of thermodynamics, in that a closed system will tend towards
15:11
disorder, period, not horror.
15:16
There was just not enough rational thought, even though, and he isn't an afterthought,
15:22
even though because the East German rulers knew that for our economy to have a chance,
15:31
we needed to have scientists because we didn't have a lot of natural resources.
15:35
There wasn't a lot of manufacturing going on.
15:39
We were supposed to, through science, create a strong economy, and so therefore they couldn't
15:47
completely suppress rational thinking.
15:51
You can't be a scientist and just feel your way through science.
15:56
We have symptoms of that today, but ultimately, that vestige of rational thinking that was
16:04
never totally suppressed, resulted in the people rising up and surprising everybody and making
16:14
that wall come down because the thinking wasn't completely eliminated.
16:22
What we have today, and I don't want to be super pessimistic, but clearly we see that
16:31
there is particularly in our schools.
16:36
The government runs schools.
16:39
Thinking is not that important.
16:43
It's all about how do you feel and how can everybody be equal and how can everybody be
16:47
fundamentally their own God.
16:49
I tried that.
16:50
It didn't work out very well.
16:52
It doesn't tend to work out very well for anybody as it turns out.
16:56
I think in addition to that, what you're talking about, we'll get more into this later on.
17:00
When you have a feelings-based approach, you talked about hard science, studying chemistry.
17:05
It doesn't matter how you feel about a bond or about something like that, or it doesn't
17:09
matter how you feel about the periodic table, it doesn't change it, and yet we're living
17:13
in this cultural moment where math is racist because it comes up with definitive answers
17:18
to specific questions.
17:20
But again, we'll certainly get there.
17:22
I want to go ahead and fast forward your story to the late 1960s.
17:27
You were approached, as far as I know, and if any of these details are wrong, please correct
17:30
me.
17:31
But you were approached by what you thought was a German intelligence agency representative,
17:36
so that would be the Stasi, to see if you were interested in a job.
17:41
This person ended up being a member of the KGB, and it started this recruitment process
17:46
to work for the KGB, and I don't want to take any of your thunder.
17:50
How about you pick up the story from there?
17:52
He was a German, and I thought it was Stasi, but he turned out to be a volunteer working
17:59
with the KGB, and so the second meeting I had with him, he introduced me to somebody
18:07
who spoke with a Russian accent, and then he told me, he introduced him, we are introduced
18:13
Herman, we're working with our Soviet comrades, and then he disappeared.
18:17
So this is how I got attached to the KGB, and that was not, I was not being recruited
18:24
at the time.
18:26
I was being observed over a period of 18 months because they were looking for a set of character
18:33
traits that are required to be successful in that kind of job that I eventually did,
18:42
namely being a lone wolf illegal undercover agent.
18:46
That is sort of like, it can't get any more demanding than that, so they were searching
18:51
for people, and checking me as to whether I was a good candidate, the recruitment actually
19:00
then happened 18 months after I met Herman, and that was an interesting situation that
19:07
upon reflection, it was a hard sell, and was another test as to whether I would actually
19:18
be qualified, because the fellow who asked me whether I was ready to join when I said
19:27
me, I don't know, I hesitated a little bit, and then he said, well, I'll give you until
19:32
tomorrow noon to make that decision, okay, so, and then he said, we only work with people
19:39
who can make tough decisions quickly, so that was a tough decision.
19:46
So, Jack, what specifically, and I don't know if they told you, or if you just surmised
19:51
this, what made you a good candidate?
19:53
What made them want to observe you for so long and then take you through the recruitment
19:57
process and even put you to a decision?
20:01
So I didn't know that, and there was never disclosed to me, I found that out, there were
20:07
a couple of ex-heads of the directorate S, directorate S was illegals in the KGB, gave
20:15
interviews after the KGB was already gone, what they were looking for, and there's a list
20:21
of character traits, I'm going to give you some examples, and they were looking for really
20:27
smart people.
20:29
They were looking for people whose mind is fast, they were looking for people who had
20:36
no problem adapting to different circumstances, they were obviously looking for people who
20:44
embraced Marxism-Leninism for sure, and then, you know, my favorite character trait is
20:51
a well-controlled inclination for adventure, you know, just like all of, put this all together,
21:00
somebody who has no problem going to another country, changing language, adapting to a
21:08
new culture, and being all by him or herself, they did like to send couples, but if there
21:17
was no suitable female, you know, they sent me by myself.
21:23
And you know, they did a good job, I never once met a KGB psychologist, I never took
21:29
a personality test, they were just checking me out piece by piece by piece, I give you
21:34
this one example, when I said yes, I thought I was already in, I really wasn't, I quit
21:42
the university, I had a job as teacher, assistant professor, and when I quit the university,
21:51
I showed up in Berlin, and I was subjected to probably the toughest test there was, that
21:59
I wasn't prepared for, and I didn't know it was a test, so I meet my new handler, my
22:05
first, you know, it was my second sort of secret meeting where you go to a particular
22:12
address, outside somewhere in the city, and you meet somebody who you don't know what
22:18
they look like, and you exchange phrases and you have something in your hand, in my case
22:24
it was some kind of a newspaper to disclose who you are, so I met this guy, he took me
22:31
into his vehicle, and we exchanged a few niceties, and then he said, "I already have a task
22:37
for you, I got excited, yeah what is it, you got to find a place to live", now this
22:47
is in a country where all living spaces were controlled by the government, there was a
22:57
shortage of housing, there were young couples with small children that still lived with
23:04
their parents and shared bedrooms and stuff like that, there was an impossible task, so
23:10
if I fail that task, I'm out, okay, well I found something and I think what impressed
23:18
Leonette there was his name a lot that I never once winced, I just said yes, and then I found
23:27
myself in the suburbs a one room space that had a bed, a table, no chair, and a stove,
23:39
the wood burning stove and running cold water, that was it, and I never complained, and this
23:48
is when I sort of knew that I was in, this one day Leonette showed up and he handed me
23:56
a set of keys, he said, "That's for you, new apartment", because they could have given
24:00
me an apartment right then, I got when I started, it was a test, and I understand that was probably
24:10
unnecessary to finally say, "Yeah, this guy, this guy can make something out of an impossible
24:15
situation".
24:16
This guy's real quick as you've likely heard me talk about on the show before, it took
24:19
me forever before I started taking supplements of any kind, I was always nervous about taking
24:24
like whey protein and creatine or really anything beyond that, because I was just afraid of
24:28
what was in the product and if it was going to like give me cancer someday or something
24:31
like that, and I was always scared of these companies, these supplement companies, just
24:35
cutting corners and using low quality products and eventually putting things in their products
24:40
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25:47
Well, it's really interesting, Jack, how you talked about, you know, you never met with
25:50
a psychologist.
25:51
I mean, we live in an era right now where it's like, Hey, if you want to know about yourself
25:54
or know if you're compatible with this person, take this, you know, quiz that takes 10 minutes
25:58
online and then it'll tell you everything about yourself and how you should act in the world
26:01
and what types of jobs you should have.
26:03
And yet their process was just very stoic and very calm, very patient just to kind of see
26:09
where you were going.
26:10
And so as you already mentioned, from, you know, the late 70s to the late 80s or so,
26:14
you worked as a sleeper agent in the United States.
26:17
And so some people might know what what that is, but I want to know from you, what does
26:22
a sleeper agent do?
26:24
What does your day in day out look like?
26:25
What was your mission specifically as a sleeper agent for that decade?
26:29
Okay, so so there's another interesting fact that I only found out after many years after
26:37
I quit the KGB that a the sleeper, the definition of a sleeper is somebody who operates in enemy
26:47
territory to just integrate with society to be at one point being woken up.
26:56
And that was, that was really what they never told me.
27:00
The word sleeper was never spoken, they sent me for and with a task, a couple of tasks,
27:07
but I found out again in one of those interviews that the most important value of my being
27:15
in the United States was my being in the United States.
27:18
And I, I put in the dots together the, you know, at the height of Cold War of the Cold
27:23
War, there were like spy wars going on between the CIA and the KGB.
27:30
So in fundamentally the vast majority of KGB agents in the US were diplomats either employed
27:37
by the UN or ambassadors or whatever, diplomatic stuff, staff.
27:43
And when they were found out to be doing something that has nothing to do with diplomacy, they
27:48
were kicked out and it became a game of retaliation.
27:53
So you kick one of ours out, we kick one of yours out and we don't even have to prove
27:58
that they, you know, good.
27:59
And then, and then three people were kicked out and three people there was retaliation
28:04
with three coming the other way.
28:08
On drop off the head of the KGB was concerned that diplomatic relations would be broken
28:15
up altogether.
28:17
And so now if you put another couple of dots together, the most effective agents in that
28:23
time period for the KGB were molds, Aldrich Ames who was in the CIA, and Robert Hansen
28:32
who was a mole in the FBI, and they provided phenomenally valuable intelligence to the
28:40
KGB.
28:41
And how, and how did they transmit that information?
28:46
They had contacts with diplomats, so if there are no more diplomats left, only the illegals
28:51
the molds were left.
28:53
Not the molds, I'm sorry, the sleepers were left.
29:00
Yes.
29:01
And so that, and the fact that I really was very well integrated in the US society was
29:11
recognized by the fact that they gave me the second highest, they rewarded me the second
29:16
highest order decoration of the Soviet Union, and my 10th year of existence here, that had
29:24
to be approved by the government, not by the KGB.
29:28
So anyway, they also gave me some tasks.
29:30
I thought my tasks, particularly I was prepared to, you know, provide intelligence with regard
29:38
to foreign policy.
29:41
So they told me, you know, in the, eventually it would be great if I could have contacts
29:48
with people that are in charge of foreign policy or at least influence foreign policy.
29:53
But I failed miserably in that because my standing in society wasn't such that I could
29:58
just befriend people like that.
30:01
Now over time, when I became a professional, I made really good money.
30:08
It wouldn't work, but that was a long game.
30:11
The other thing where I don't know whether I was successful or not was I was supposed
30:19
to operate as a spotter, spotters just look for people that could be targets for recruitment
30:29
and, you know, profile those people and somebody else might actually contact them and try to
30:40
recruit them.
30:41
I don't know.
30:42
I was never given any feedback.
30:43
I profile the number of students who most likely had a government career and added them.
30:52
No idea whether that would actually succeeded in anything.
30:58
And I also had a task to, and I was told every KGB individual in a sort of enemy country
31:09
had one military object assigned to them to occasionally visit to see if there's signs
31:17
that the U.S. is preparing for war, that again, all of that, they never really told me much
31:25
of anything, they told me as much as they thought I needed to know to do my job.
31:31
I was pretty blind.
31:33
And lastly, I had this one task where I knew I was successful.
31:40
They asked me to go find whether an individual who defected from the KGB in the early fifties
31:54
still lived in San Bernardino and taught at the University of California, and at this
32:01
point the name doesn't, I don't remember the name, but I found him and interestingly
32:08
enough, and I reported on that, interestingly enough, two or three months later, I watched
32:16
late night television and there was this fellow giving an interview, and I found out that he
32:23
was under a death sentence in the Soviet Union.
32:27
I am delighted to report that whatever they thought they want to do to him, they didn't
32:33
do it, so he died from a natural death.
32:36
So this is sort of the universe of espionage that I lived in.
32:43
One more thing I forgot is, at one point, from where last two years I had an assignment
32:51
to see if I could steal some technology because the KGB, the Soviet government, was finally
32:58
aware that with regard to particularly computer technology, they were falling far behind,
33:05
and they couldn't buy stuff on the open market because it was on, you know, with things
33:09
that technology said, "Well, Andy, do not export this."
33:14
So, you know, I stole some software, but I don't think that was usable.
33:18
I copied software, you know, didn't steal it because I was working as a computer program
33:24
for an insurance company, but that was it.
33:28
It's not what people think, you know, the exciting life of a super spy who drives fast
33:36
cars and has one pretty girlfriend after another and so forth.
33:44
My first job was bike messenger, and then I became a computer programmer, not very exciting.
33:51
But again, according to them, I did the job, and I'm glad that, you know, this hand never
33:59
touched a weapon.
34:01
I had self-defense training just not to fight with the FBI just to, in case I'm attacked
34:07
by robbers someplace in the park and got while engaged in an operation.
34:12
So, that's, there's nothing else I can add to this, the life of an undercover illegal,
34:20
and one more thing I want to add, I met a colleague of mine, also a German, and he and
34:30
his, he came to the US with his wife, the original Americans as a couple, and his, their
34:39
only task was to live as an American in the United States.
34:44
He got a job as an IT support person at Columbia University, he had no other job to do.
34:51
That's, I mean, that's very interesting.
34:53
I mean, you're weaving this, I mean, because, yeah, it doesn't have all the, you know,
34:57
the girlfriends and the car chases and the shootouts and all that, but the universe
35:01
that you're describing is still very, very interesting, and one of the most interesting
35:04
parts is about the patience that you have to have, and you constantly have to be careful
35:08
about blowing your cover, becoming compromised.
35:11
And as I understand it, in late 1988, you thought that your cover may have been compromised,
35:17
and I believe that kind of led to, to your exit from the world of espionage.
35:22
So, so take us through that process of thinking your, your cover may have been blown and how
35:26
that, you know, you eventually were no longer spying for the KGB here.
35:29
Yeah, let me, let me start out with a thought that I was aware of, and I know I'm pretty
35:37
sure that this was a valid thought for somebody like me, illegals had a shelf life, because
35:47
if we do the job really well, we become so used to that new person that we are and the
35:53
new environment that we're in, that we become vulnerable to defection, and, and so the,
36:03
the idea was, they were talking about 10 to 12 years, and then I'm coming back home.
36:09
So I was in my 10th year, and there was no indication at that time that they were going
36:16
to call me back, which was a surprise, but apparently I was too, too valuable.
36:23
But something spoke them, and they were like extremely careful courses with regard to protecting
36:32
us, not like modern day Russia, Putin doesn't give a damn whether his, his folks are being
36:42
discovered.
36:43
He just, he just enjoys that, if, if somebody like the butino person was discovered that,
36:51
that, that raises fear in Americans and, that, and I'm always being asked when I, that public
36:57
appearances, I'm always being asked how many, how many more are there?
37:01
Yeah, there's, so, so no, the, the KGB was very protective of us, and apparently they
37:08
had reason to believe that the FBI was on my tail, and so they activated the emergency
37:15
procedure by putting a sign at a predetermined spot that I passed by every morning on my
37:24
way to work.
37:25
And steel beam supporting the, a train going into Manhattan, out of Queens, excuse me.
37:33
And I'm, and I'm going, and you know, roll of work, and I'm not a morning person, and
37:38
then I see the red dot, oh shoot, I used the other as word, and no, not prepared for that
37:47
at all.
37:48
So, and the reason I said, oh shoot, you know, there was a person in my life that the
37:53
KGB didn't know, and that was a 18 month old daughter.
37:59
And it so happened, and this is, this is the point where I usually tell people that in,
38:08
in my testimony that I give in churches, and it's entitled God had a plan for me when,
38:17
when I give examples where other people make, make decisions on my behalf without me knowing
38:22
it, and that radically changed my life.
38:25
So I, I was married in the US, not to get too much into detail, I was married, and there
38:33
was not a plan to have children.
38:36
So the wife supposedly was on the birth control pills, and one day she decided to, because
38:44
I told her that we wouldn't be married for forever, it was to make a legal to, to get
38:51
a green card.
38:52
And once you got your green card to be, we're going to divorce, and she wanted to hold on
38:56
to me, so she decided to have a baby.
38:59
I had no part of that decision, and that baby, so I could not possibly desert this woman,
39:11
and that small child, you know, I always thought of myself as a good person, and I probably
39:18
God made me to be caring and, and, and taking care of people, particularly the ones that,
39:25
that need taken care of, and, and so I didn't have enough money for, to put them into an
39:32
apartment separately.
39:34
So we, we moved in together, and I watched this child grow up, and something happened
39:40
to me that snuck up on me, I was not prepared for that at all.
39:44
It's like a massive attack of unconditional love, and, and you know, when I show up in
39:52
public, and I mentioned that, and I address the men particularly, there's a lot of men
39:56
who can relate to that, particularly when it comes to their girl, girl children.
40:02
And so, in that, and, and, and I had, and I knew the end was coming, and I was trying
40:09
to figure out how can I help for this child to have a good childhood to, to not grow up
40:16
in poverty.
40:17
Her mother had only four years of schooling, and, and, and if she, and the child are not
40:26
without support, they, my, my baby girl would have grown up in a slum, and I had no solution.
40:34
I couldn't possibly ask the KGB to help me out there, you know, that would have possibly
40:40
landed me in jail, because I hit something from them that was, which was a, considered
40:45
a very high risk, you know, going, going for an interview at the immigration to testify
40:55
that I'm an American, and this is my wife, and we're applying for a green card at work.
41:03
But anyway, so, so, yeah, I see the red dot and I'm going on to work.
41:10
I didn't do much work that day.
41:12
My mind was racing, but I played for time because I could, you know, I could, they didn't
41:21
know I could, could, could be in a hospital.
41:25
I, that there could have been all kinds of reasons why I did not do what I was supposed
41:32
to do, immediately go to a park in the Bronx where I had reserved documents and then make
41:43
a beeline to, to the Canadian border and say hello at the Soviet Embassy in Ottawa, and
41:51
they would have smuckled me out of the Western world.
41:55
And I didn't do that, I went to work and waited on, on, there was a Monday on a Thursday,
42:04
there was my regularly scheduled radio transmission, shortwave, and I listened to it, and there
42:09
was a little more information.
42:10
They said, we have reason to believe that the FBI is following you and will, you will
42:16
be arrested.
42:17
So, and activate the emergency protocol, oops, I still was able to play for time because
42:24
the radio could be broken.
42:28
And again, I could be disabled at one point, I wasn't an accident, a bike accident, and
42:35
I couldn't operate for about six weeks because my right arm wasn't a sling, so I couldn't
42:43
do much of anything.
42:45
So, so, and they knew that.
42:47
So eventually they, they decided to figure out, am I still alive, am I, am I still operational
42:55
in some way?
42:56
And so, one morning, December morning, it was still dark, I'm waiting for the subway,
43:05
and there weren't too many people there, and to my right, there's a, there's a short man
43:11
in a black trench coat, and he, he walks up to me and whispers into my ear, you gotta
43:18
come home or else you're dead.
43:20
Yeah, that's an interesting sentence to hear from a KGB agent.
43:27
So, you hear that, and what did you think?
43:31
I'm, I'm a stoic, and, and I, I, I am also, you know, I live by, I have always lived by,
43:40
you know, the motto, que sera que, que sera sera, you know, [inaudible] happens, you know, just
43:46
like whatever, and even though I didn't believe in God at that time, I, I believe that somehow
43:55
everything will always turn out the right way.
43:57
So, so I, I had to take this seriously, because if what I was, what I was considering, if
44:07
I break up with a KGB, they could have, could easily interpret this as defection, and I
44:14
did know that they did not treat defectors very well, to put it mildly.
44:20
But, but I also, at this point now, I had, I had to take, I was forced to make a decision,
44:26
because now, I know that they know, I know that they know that I know, so there, there
44:32
wasn't no, there was no more stalling.
44:35
So the following, I'm sorry, first day there wasn't another radio transmission and they,
44:45
they invited me for dead drop operations for me to go to a park someplace at a pre,
44:54
pre-determined time, go to a pre-determined spot to pick up a rusty old oil can to contain
45:01
the passport and money to travel, because they didn't know whether my travel documents,
45:07
the reserve documents, were, were still available.
45:11
And so I, I went, and at this point, the only reason, the, the one reason that I went is
45:19
to just collect the money, and I still hadn't made a decision what to do, whether I would
45:23
use the passport and go to Canada, and, and, and background, this was the fourth or the
45:32
fifth, dead drop operation that we were engaged in, in the United States, and they all worked
45:38
like clockwork.
45:39
So I had no reason to believe that this one wouldn't work, because it wasn't a spot that
45:44
I have, I had, I had found, and described, there's no way that you could mistake this,
45:54
this spot, it wasn't a park on Staten Island, where the, there was a small path into the
46:00
park, and the entrance was marked by a sign that had something on it, a road sign that
46:06
was nowhere else in, in, in that area.
46:09
So you go like a couple of hundred feet into this, into this park, and to your left there
46:15
is a, a tree with a hollowed out bottom, and that's where you put the container, okay?
46:21
So I walk in there, and, and it was dark, there was nobody in the park, it was dark
46:27
and walk in there, and there was no oil can, I didn't, did a double take, and I walk around
46:37
the tree, see, maybe he missed a spot, there was nothing there, and I went a little further
46:43
out, and I spent about fifteen minutes, and I gave up, and this is, as I'm walking out
46:49
of this park, and, you know, it sounds so dramatic, but, and I, I don't have to make
46:54
it up, because it truly happened, and as I'm walking out of this park, my subconscious
47:04
read me the three, the two words, I'm staying.
47:09
Now, now that I'm a Christian, I know it was the Holy Spirit communicating with my subconscious.
47:16
Holy Spirit made that, made that totally irrational decision, totally irrational, and
47:21
I tell you why it's totally irrational.
47:23
First of all, everything that was good for me was back there behind the Iron Curtain.
47:29
The wall was still up, communism was still a force to be reckoned with.
47:34
They, I had quite a few dollars that they saved from me in, in Moscow, they promised
47:40
me a house, I had a family, I had a wife and a son in Germany, and, you know, having
47:50
received that, that decoration, the order of the Red Banner, I would have gone home as
47:54
a conquering hero.
47:57
And so, and if I stay in any normal rational thinker would have rationalized the, not staying
48:07
because there's a good chance that they were right and if the FBI catches me, I'm no good
48:12
for anybody, so I might as well leave.
48:16
And so, and I made that decision anyway, and it, and it worked out.
48:21
So that's when I, it's a, I'm convinced that I was meant to stay and it wasn't my own decision.
48:28
Well, I mean, I appreciate that.
48:30
There's a couple of different places I can go, but I want to circle back to, you know,
48:35
your interactions with the FBI because you've mentioned several times that you're, you believe
48:39
in God, you're, you're a follower of Christ, you become a Christian, which is so interesting
48:42
because I live in Oklahoma.
48:44
So we're the belt buckle, the Bible belt, like everybody goes to church, you can't trip
48:48
and fall without running into four or five different churches, right?
48:51
That's basically the, the world that I live in.
48:53
And so we're marinated in it, right?
48:55
Which is kind of a catch 22 because people may feel like they're a Christian just because
48:59
grandma went to church or because we listen to country music and they mentioned God every
49:03
now and then like it's that kind of a weird deal.
49:05
So we have our own problems, but you grow up with basically no Christian theology.
49:11
You grow up with really no one pushing you towards this creator God or this triune nature
49:16
of the God, it's, it's all about, you know, communism and Marxism and, you know, whatever
49:21
Vladimir Lenin says goes and those types of things.
49:24
So explain to me how you be, how you became a Christian, how you came to put your faith
49:29
in Christ.
49:30
Yeah.
49:31
Let me, let me give you a little more background.
49:32
So we celebrated Christmas, but it was a pagan ritual.
49:41
Christ was not in the mix, not, not ever mentioned. Same thing we celebrated Easter.
49:48
It was all about the Easter Bunny and, you know, the colored eggs and stuff like that.
49:53
Right.
49:54
I once found a Bible in one of my grandparents' homes and curious as I was, I opened it up
50:01
and I started reading it.
50:04
And somebody who has no clue has no guidance, shouldn't read the Bible from the beginning.
50:14
Because I closed it when it came to the genealogy, you know, who would be at home and say, Oh,
50:20
my God, that's so boring.
50:22
There was, there was not even a course in high school or college.
50:26
We've all been there.
50:28
Yeah.
50:29
There wasn't even, not even a course in high school or college, it's, you know, the religion
50:33
of the world where we would be taught how our religions are stupid because they were afraid
50:41
that it actually might have an opposite effect.
50:45
So I came to the United States knowing that Christians are pretty stupid, helpless, and
50:55
they used their religion as a, as a crutch to get through life period.
51:00
Yeah.
51:01
And, and, and I believed in this now, and as I started working in corporate America and
51:08
I started working with people that openly declared themselves a Christian, I pretty much
51:16
realized that they weren't, they weren't stupid.
51:19
So that, that stupid label didn't fit.
51:24
And when I started hiring people, when I got into management, the people that actually
51:29
came in and, and declaring their faith were actually the best people to work with.
51:35
Right.
51:36
Okay.
51:37
My prejudice is wrong.
51:38
Yeah.
51:39
But so they're not stupid and they're good people.
51:42
But at that point, I just stopped, you know, I, I, and I became an agnostic because I don't
51:47
want it.
51:48
I don't want to deal with this.
51:49
And that's the cowards way out, right, the, the way to Christianity was then engineered
51:57
by God and for which again, I wasn't prepared.
52:03
That's a, it's a somewhat lengthy story that could take 20 minutes to, to explain.
52:09
But I hired myself a, and I needed it.
52:14
I was a high level executive.
52:17
I was chief information officer at a large energy company.
52:20
And my, my administrative assistant had quit on me.
52:25
So I needed another one.
52:27
And so HR gave me a bunch of resumes and I did some initial, some phone screens.
52:33
And this one lady who did really well on the phone, she, she spoke with a British accent
52:39
and that, that's very appealing.
52:40
And she, she, she grew up in Jamaica and that's how she learned how to speak English, not
52:47
Patua.
52:48
And very intelligent.
52:49
And she told me that, you know, she, she came to the United States as a bilingual secretary
52:55
at the United Nations as a woman, well, this is an interesting candidate.
52:59
And then she said, oh, by the way, I'm going to college in the evenings.
53:06
I'm going to, I'm getting a degree in Bible.
53:10
So if that's a problem with you, we might not even want to have an in-person interview.
53:17
And I'm thinking, oh, God, I hope she's not a holy roller.
53:20
That's exactly what I thought.
53:22
But she was so, so attractive, so, so intelligent and so elegant in the way she was talking.
53:32
I brought her in and H.O.N. took the interview first in a small room and I opened the door
53:38
and they told me she's all yours now.
53:41
I walk in there and it never happened before and it ain't going to happen again.
53:49
I was like, whoa, love it first sight.
53:54
Now, I, in hindsight, I realized that it wasn't necessarily, she's a beautiful woman.
54:01
She wasn't very beautiful, she still is, but, you know, I've looked at so many beautiful
54:06
women in my life and that never happened to me before.
54:09
It was the glow on her face that made me fall in love.
54:14
And I've seen this and I witnessed this in other people, including men.
54:19
My first pastor had the same glow on his face.
54:22
It's like the Holy Spirit manifest, manifesting himself in these individuals.
54:29
It's rare, but she had it and I had a colleague next to me, so we did the interview, a very
54:36
professional.
54:37
She passed by flying callers and in hindsight, she told, she will tell anybody who's willing
54:45
to listen that at the time she had three job offers.
54:50
And she also claims that God talks to her in words occasionally and she was supposed
54:57
to take the job offer that came with a sign on bonus and a regular performance bonus,
55:03
which at that level is highly unusual.
55:07
And I, she, the demands that she had for a salary were too high, so I said, well, maybe
55:14
we close the gap with a sign on.
55:18
And this company actually paid bonuses as a policy to a clerical personnel.
55:24
So she took the job and then once she started, she was, she was told that there was a, there
55:31
was another job for her job for God, but God didn't tell her who that was all about and
55:39
what it was.
55:40
Well, so she then systematically started to evangelize me and this was the situation
55:45
where she could do this easily because we were in an open space.
55:50
Nobody had an office.
55:51
And when she was sitting right across from me and she witnessed how I treat the folks
56:01
in my organization and in between, you know, doing work, we exchanged personal information
56:09
that was in the middle of a horrendous divorce.
56:12
She was in the middle of a horrendous divorce.
56:14
So we got to know each other really well.
56:18
So in one day we were required to take new employees to lunch and I did something proactive.
56:31
I said to her, by the way, I understand that you're a hardcore Christian and I have no
56:38
problem with that.
56:39
It was just don't you think that you ever get me to join your faith.
56:44
And this woman was bold enough to turn around and says, you're already a Christian.
56:50
You just don't know it.
56:52
Prophetic indeed, because nowadays I'm thinking about this and I'm sitting in church this
57:00
past Sunday and I'm thinking how the heck was I was I was there a time in my life when
57:06
I wasn't a Christian.
57:08
So and then she very, very methodically began to began to evangelize me.
57:14
And one one thing that where I set her up was because she went to a horrendous divorce
57:22
and she was always cheerful and just like she was like by everybody and I asked her,
57:29
how do you handle all of this?
57:31
Because I was in a state of depression and she says, well, it must be Jesus.
57:37
Anyway, and so she was extremely methodical, she knew that for somebody like me who was
57:47
at the time, primarily an intellectual thinker, I had to embrace Christian philosophy, particularly
57:56
what's the word sometimes I'm missing words, Christian apologetics, okay, yeah.
58:12
So she introduced me to a radio program that was run every week by one Dr. Ravi Zacharayas
58:23
called Let My People Think.
58:25
And the first time I turned it on, he spoke about something that was really, really important
58:33
to me.
58:34
He spoke about the moral law and how actually, you know, because I thought of myself as
58:40
a person with high morals yet, you know, I committed crimes literally and I hurt people.
58:47
So I struggled with that and Zacharayas mentioned that there is a universal moral law, no matter
58:57
what religion, there's no religion that cannot accept the Ten Commandments.
59:03
So and then he spoke probably the most important sentence for me to eventually become a Christian.
59:10
And he said, where there is a moral law, it has to be a law giver, and at that point,
59:17
I accepted the existence of God, and I reexamined my belief that, you know, the big bang was
59:29
creating something out of nothing.
59:30
So I became a deist and then Shawna, that's her name, Shawna also pointed out C.S. Lewis
59:42
and I started reading C.S. Lewis and the C.S. Lewis logic is so forcing.
59:47
You can't argue.
59:48
You can't argue.
59:49
You just cannot argue.
59:51
And so one day I just asked her because she always came back on Monday, how wonderful service
59:55
were on blah, blah, blah.
59:57
So she, I asked her, so why don't you, you know, why don't I come with you one day?
1:00:06
And so we decided to go to a Saturday service.
1:00:12
She was habitually late and I was afraid to go in there.
1:00:15
I had never been in a church other than Catholic where there was service ongoing.
1:00:19
I didn't know what to expect.
1:00:20
I literally was afraid that they might recognize that I'm new and that they would drag me into
1:00:29
a room and talk to me about, you know, sharing my sins with them and giving, and asking for
1:00:40
forgiveness or else I go to hell.
1:00:42
So she came, we walked into service, it was music ongoing, nobody paid attention to us.
1:00:50
It was nice.
1:00:51
And then the pastor came, he's the guy with a glow on his face.
1:00:56
What is sermon?
1:00:58
And clearly that happens to a lot of questions when you go to service and there's a good
1:01:04
pastor preaching.
1:01:06
You know that he's preaching exactly to you personally.
1:01:10
And he was preaching to me and because his team was the love of God, and boy did I need
1:01:16
that because as I indicated, I was rather depressed in those days.
1:01:22
The only prolonged period of depression I ever went through in my life because that
1:01:30
divorce proceeding was horrendous.
1:01:33
And so at the end of this service, I did something that was totally uncharacteristic for me.
1:01:41
And I went up to the pastor and I was somewhat passive aggressive.
1:01:46
What I really meant to say that that was one heck of a message, but I said, you have
1:01:51
a great delivery and he recognized, he knew I'm six, six three at the time I was six
1:01:56
three and he never met me before.
1:01:59
And he sensed an opportunity, he called his assistant pastor and asked me, can we pray
1:02:08
over you?
1:02:09
He had hands on me and I wasn't uncomfortable.
1:02:15
So from that point on, I just went to church with Shauna and her son because it was part
1:02:26
of my healing.
1:02:28
I wasn't a Christian yet, but the second time I showed up, the pastor gave me this booklet
1:02:37
called The Search for Christ, I forgot the author, but that's a journalist who went on
1:02:43
a mission to debunk the case for Christ by Lee Strobel.
1:02:47
Yeah, the case for Christ, yes, and he found nothing but evidence that Christ actually
1:02:53
did exist.
1:02:54
So I read that and as a trained scientist, as a wall, I still didn't become a Christian.
1:03:01
That just happened spontaneously while I was playing golf with a friend of mine.
1:03:10
And he was looking for his ball and I'm standing there waiting for later resume and looking
1:03:17
up in the sky.
1:03:18
There were these puffy clouds, blue sky in all of the same way.
1:03:24
The words I'm staying came to me.
1:03:28
The words I know Jesus, I know you're there, I know you're really and you're my God.
1:03:33
And then next service, they didn't have an altar call, but some force made me get up after
1:03:45
service and then walk up to the altar and the pastor asked me, "What can I do for you?"
1:03:50
And I said, "I want to give my life to Christ."
1:03:54
And that was all I remember.
1:03:57
The rest of it was explained to me by Sean because I was in his zone because the pastor
1:04:03
actually took the microphone and explained to the congregation who were already leaving.
1:04:11
He knew a little bit about my background that I once was a communist.
1:04:16
And there was blessings all around and applause, I don't remember that.
1:04:23
And about a month later I was baptized in water.
1:04:31
And the interesting thing is, and one other thing, that following Easter I gave my first
1:04:38
testimony, admitting that I once was a KGB agent, which was somewhat foolish because I
1:04:46
was still living, I was cooperating with the FBI at the time.
1:04:51
I was on the protection of the FBI, but I was still operating under the illegally obtained
1:04:56
documents.
1:04:57
So, and here I give my testimony, first I get baptized and I give my testimony in church
1:05:03
in a church where in the area where I lived and where I worked and nobody but nobody sort
1:05:15
of took note.
1:05:17
I could have been fired for my job, literally because it wasn't an energy company that
1:05:23
part owned a nuclear plant, high security, they would have fired me no problem and nothing
1:05:30
happened.
1:05:31
So, I'm still thinking that God protected me from this foolishness and allowed me to
1:05:37
give my testimony.
1:05:39
Jack, that's so incredible.
1:05:40
I'm so glad that you spent all that time and given us all that detail, it's always great
1:05:44
to hear even a shorter version of somebody's testimony of how, because it's so clear on
1:05:49
the back end, it's so clear to see that the Holy Spirit was just calling you home and
1:05:53
bringing you closer to Father this entire time now.
1:05:56
Unfortunately, we're just about run out of time, but I'm gonna sneak in one more question
1:06:00
for you because I think this is so incredibly important.
1:06:03
So, Jack, you've got a lot of listeners listening to you right now that have kids.
1:06:06
I have a four-year-old and a two-year-old, so they're a little bit younger, but most
1:06:09
of our audience are fathers with children.
1:06:12
And they can see, especially if they let them go to the government schools, the Roman
1:06:16
schools, that their young people are being romanced, as we talk about from the beginning
1:06:21
of this interview, they're being romanced by the ideas of communism and socialism and
1:06:26
Marxism.
1:06:27
They're saying things like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:06:28
I know about the tens of millions of people that died in the 20th century, but, but, but,
1:06:32
we just haven't done communism correctly yet, and don't worry if we do it this way, it'll
1:06:36
be fine."
1:06:37
No, it's not socialism.
1:06:38
It's democratic socialism or something like that.
1:06:40
So, we only have a few minutes left here, but in a nutshell, could you give us your perspective
1:06:44
on why it's so romantic to young people, but also what we as fathers can do to ensure that
1:06:50
our young people are not taken up by this worldview that essentially has no foundation?
1:06:55
I want to quote Jordan Peterson, who actually interviewed me on his podcast, I want to
1:07:01
quote him.
1:07:02
He says, "The most important person in a child's life is the father."
1:07:07
We have that responsibility, and I have a 13-year-old who has never set foot for even
1:07:17
a second in a government school, starting with pre-Kindergarten.
1:07:23
Now, if you can't afford it, put on a Christian school or a homeschool, and if that's not
1:07:32
a possibility, just monitor what they're being taught and just fight against it to the extent
1:07:39
you can.
1:07:41
Again, as I said at the beginning of the interview, the whole idea of the team, the
1:07:49
collective, and everybody should be equal in all this nonsense because we're not.
1:07:57
We should have any consciences, but this whole idea must be fought at the very beginning,
1:08:08
so it doesn't get lodged in your reptilian brain, which is very difficult to get rid
1:08:16
of.
1:08:17
I went back after so many years to visit Germany, and some of my friends and colleagues that
1:08:25
I left are still pink, and you were 100% right, they're rationalizing.
1:08:32
Communism is a good idea, but we just had the wrong leadership, and now the whole idea
1:08:38
is to redo it, and the bottom line is, and this is not an argument you make with children,
1:08:45
but the bottom line is, every revolution that started as an honest communist revolution
1:08:50
wound up in a motoristic dictatorship.
1:08:55
Clearly you need to be aware that there's an evil seed in man, and I'm going to do my
1:09:01
part here.
1:09:02
I'm working on a business model that sort of imitates Sean Peterson.
1:09:12
I'm trying to, we just started to collect the community, and then eventually wind up
1:09:18
in the podcast just like you, and have events in person to share what I learned.
1:09:24
This is my personal experience, it's not theory, it's the life that I lived, it led
1:09:29
me to God, and that's a voice I would hope that can be heard, and we need more voices
1:09:36
like that.
1:09:37
I absolutely agree with that, anything that we can do here at Undaunted Life to help you
1:09:41
in that mission, we would love to do that, but Jack, we've gone everywhere in this conversation,
1:09:45
I'm very thankful for your time, but that's all for me, is there anything else you want
1:09:48
to get off your chest?
1:09:50
Well, this is my, my, my motto in life is, it sounds trite, but it is actually absolutely
1:10:00
true, and it's three words love, Congress all, it's the love of Christ, it's unconditional
1:10:06
love.
1:10:07
It is, it is not the love that I give you, and I want something back, and that's the
1:10:12
only way to live.
1:10:14
I absolutely love that that's a great reminder for all of us, Jack Barsky.
1:10:18
Thank you for coming on Undaunted Life on Man's podcast.
1:10:21
Thank you.
1:10:22
Thank you very much.
1:10:23
I appreciate it.
1:10:24
All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed my interview with Jack Barsky, but before we let you go,
1:10:27
we are going to do a quick resilience boost at Undaunted Life.
1:10:29
Our mission is equipping men to push back darkness with content that forges spiritual,
1:10:33
mental, and physical resilience.
1:10:34
So I've got two links for you today, I've got a link to Jack's website.
1:10:37
If you're a church out there, he is actually actively booking engagements where he goes
1:10:40
and shares his testimony.
1:10:42
You can get ahold of him through his website, and also I've got an Amazon link to his autobiography
1:10:45
deep undercover.
1:10:47
Thank you for listening to this podcast.
1:10:48
Wherever you're listening to this, please subscribe, rate, and leave us a positive five
1:10:51
star review.
1:10:52
If you want me to come speak live at your event or on your podcast, just shoot me an
1:10:55
email to info@undaunted.life.
1:10:58
That's iNFO@undaunted.life.
1:10:59
Follow us on Instagram and like us on Facebook and check out our website for everything else,
1:11:03
including how to donate to keep more content like this coming your way.
1:11:06
Just go to www.undaunted.life, and as always, we want to thank the band Holy Name for allowing
1:11:11
us to use their music for our content.
1:11:13
The music on this podcast is their song Perpetua, which is off their self-titled debut album,
1:11:17
on Face Down Records.
1:11:18
The links are in the description.
1:11:20
I'm your host, Kyle Thompson.
1:11:22
Remember, keep pushing back darkness, keep forging spiritual, mental, and physical resilience.
1:11:29
Keep seeking the lion of Judah.
1:11:47
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